Boston Tea Party Chairman: ‘Charles Jay is lying’

Boston Tea Party Chairman Jim Davidson has responded to the criticisms made by his party’s presidential candidate Charles Jay.

The internecine conflict has its roots in allegations of child molestation levied against one of the party’s many “favorite son” vice-presidential candidates, John Wayne Smith of Florida — who also happened to be the state party’s chairman. When informed of the allegations against Mr. Smith, Davidson’s opinion was that the national party officers needed to be informed. Others apparently disagreed.

As for allegations that Mr. Davidson thought he had the “right to monitor private conversations that take place between BTP Florida members,” Davidson responded: “Charles Jay is lying. I didn’t demand insight into all his private conversations. I explicitly said that the campaign can run its affairs any which way.”

Read Mr. Davidson’s entire response here.

John Wayne Smith, who will still be on the Florida ballot as Charles Jay’s running mate, resigned his post as BTP of Florida chairman and deleted the party’s Yahoo! group prior to the state party’s disaffiliation.

145 thoughts on “Boston Tea Party Chairman: ‘Charles Jay is lying’

  1. AnthonyD

    That sound you hear is the guffaws of thousands of LP moderates. The irony here is delicious.

  2. Thomas L. Knapp

    “When informed of the allegations against Mr. Smith, Davidson’s opinion was that the national party officers needed to be informed. Others disagreed.”

    Not exactly.

    The LP “moderates” can guffaw all they like. They nominated a presidential candidate who has called on the state of Georgia to distribute child pornography on demand. The BTP nominated a libertarian.

  3. Thomas L. Knapp

    GE,

    It’s probably too nuanced to explain, but I’ll try.

    I received a phone call from Ms. Barnes, outlining her allegations against John Wayne Smith. At the time, she mentioned that she had emailed Mr. Barnett concerning those allegations, but the implications of that didn’t really sink in.

    Since I am not a party officer, I don’t have a fiduciary duty to bring everything that comes to my attention to the national committee’s attention. So, I didn’t. I discussed the matter with Charles Jay, who in addition to being the party’s presidential candidate is also on the Florida BTP’s executive committee; and with Darcy Richardson, also of the Florida BTP’s committee and an advisor to the presidential campaign.

    Even while that discussion was taking place, Mr. Barnett published Ms. Barnes’s email publicly, and responded to it with venom. I admit that I reacted to that badly and before thinking — on the former, not the latter, issue.

    On the latter issue, I was, and remain, correct. When someone comes to you with allegations of this sort, there’s simply no upside to being an asshole about it. If the allegations are true, berating the accuser is wrong. If the allegations are not true, berating the accuser does not defend the party — it merely makes the false accuser look better.

    On the former issue, however, Mr. Barnett was correct, as I quickly admitted once I had thought things through. He is the vice-chair of the party. Once the matter came to his attention, he had an obligation to divulge it to the national committee — and the national committee conducts all of its deliberations in public, period.

    The disagreement proper between Mr. Davidson on one hand, and myself, Mr. Jay and Mr. Richardson, pertained to the propriety of Mr. Barnett’s response, not the issue of whether or not the issue had to be considered openly rather than secretly at the national committee level once one or more officers were aware of it.

    Regards,
    Tom Knapp

  4. G.E. Post author

    Fiduciary duty or not, it’s not a good idea to try to sweep child-molestation allegations under the rug.

  5. paulie cannoli

    So any accusation, true or not, means the person accused needs to get out of politics?

    Probably means we would not have anyone in politics in short order.

    Come to think of it, a good thing…

  6. George Dance

    “The LP “moderates” can guffaw all they like. They nominated a presidential candidate who has called on the state of Georgia to distribute child pornography on demand.

    For those who don’t know, Mr. Knapp is referring to the Genarlow Wilson case, in which the U.S. Justice Dept. threatened one of its DA’s for making the evidence public, claiming (like Mr. Knapp) that that was “distributing child pornography.” Please read:
    http://www.bobbarr2008.com/articles/41/us-justice-has-no-business-in-georgias-genarlow-wilson-case/

    BTW, Tom, I was holding back to see if you guys would try to spin this into yet another attack against Bob Barr, before deciding whether to write about it or not. Thanks for helping me to decide.

  7. George Dance

    BTW, Jason: thanks for writing about this. I assume that means you’ve decided to vote for Baldwin.

    My only worry is that these two stories will suddenly disappear, just like the one you wrote on Baldwin, Ramos, and Compean.

  8. Thomas L. Knapp

    GE,

    It’s not a matter of “sweeping things under the rug.”

    Ms. Barnes contacted me (and Mr. Barnett) about two weeks before a presidential election in which her father was a vice-presidential candidate.

    Within minutes of hanging up with her, I was in contact with the presidential candidate, and he agreed that the allegations should be taken seriously and investigated.

    Not immediately broadbanding to everyone who cares to know “hey, our VP candidate just got accused of being a sexual predator” is not the same as “sweeping it under the rug.” No action to prevent anyone else from doing that was taken by Mr. Jay, by myself, or anyone else.

    I do admit that my first, startled reaction to Mr. Barnett’s broadbanding of the allegations was “Jesus, that was stupid.” I was incorrect. I designed the BTP’s bylaws to force it to address matters openly rather than secretly. As an officer of the national committee, Mr. Barnett did indeed have an obligation to bring the matter to the committee’s attention — and once he did so, the committee’s discussion of it had to be public, and the public had to be free to comment on it.

    I also believed — and still believe — that “Jesus, that was stupid” is the only way to describe the way in which Mr. Barnett publicly responded to the allegations. I am not alone in that opinion. Mr. Barnett even briefly shared that opinion himself, although in the last 24 hours he has changed direction yet again and gone publicly on the attack against Ms. Barnes, making himself and the party look even worse than either did before.

    Needless to say, none of this is a pleasant experience. I believe, however, that it is a necessary one. I’m aware of parties in which similar matters have, indeed, been “swept under the rug.” We’re not going to be one of those parties.

  9. Thomas L. Knapp

    Mr. Dance,

    Always happy to be of assistance.

    You note that the DoJ and I agree that the material in question is, per the applicable law, “child pornography.” I’m curious as to why you don’t acknowledge (and in fact try, implicitly, to deny) that in the column you reference, Mr. Barr agrees with both the DoJ and myself, and then advocates on behalf of distributing it.

    Regards,
    Tom Knapp

  10. paulie cannoli

    latest

    I am resigning!

    I hereby withdrawal my name from being a candidate for Chair and resign my position on the NAT-COM. I hereby remove any affiliation
    from the BTP, it’s endorsed candidates and any other capacity hereon to this. I feel friendships are more valuable than petty party politics and will do better achieving my goals elsewhere. I also withdrawal my support of the Jay/Knapp ticket. I realized that life was much better beforehand and at 36 I have better things to do than to just bounce from party to party to party searching for the right mix. Thanks for the wonderful roller coaster ride! Can I puke now?

    Chris Bennett

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/btpnc-talk/message/217

    So, are there any candidates for BTP chair?

  11. Thomas L. Knapp

    Paulie,

    NOTA is a candidate in all BTP races.

    Paulie and Jason: Nominations, seconds, and acceptances for the chairmanship of the BTP are only effective if they are made at:

    http://www.bostontea.us/2008officernominations

    My assumption has to be that the same is true of withdrawals. I don’t know where Mr. Bennett posted the text that you attribute it to him, but it wasn’t there, so he remains a candidate as of this time.

    Regards,
    Tom Knapp

  12. G.E. Post author

    So any accusation, true or not, means the person accused needs to get out of politics?

    Not at all what I said.

    Is J.W. Smith a incestuous child rapist? I do not know. But what is confirmed without doubt is that he’s estranged from his daughter. That should be his focus, not running as the “favorite son” nominee of a distant third-party ticket.

  13. G.E. Post author

    BTW, Jason: thanks for writing about this. I assume that means you’ve decided to vote for Baldwin.

    My only worry is that these two stories will suddenly disappear, just like the one you wrote on Baldwin, Ramos, and Compean.

    I will not vote for Baldwin.

    I was never going to vote for Jay since the inept BTP of MI put out more press releases then it found electors, and thus Jay didn’t get registered as a write-in.

    No story has ever “disappeared” from IPR — at least not on my watch. So I don’t know WTF you’re talking about, and my guess is: neither do you.

  14. paulie cannoli

    I also noticed this

    ————————-

    hale2thenathan:

    Secretary: Paulie Cannoli
    President: Jim Davidson

    Villiage Idiot: Rice Beccons
    10/11/2008 – 13:05

    9
    planetaryjim:

    With regard to Paulie, there is currently a controversy regarding him, possibly more than one. I do appreciate the effective work he was paid to perform in Tennessee. I do not have any personal issues with him, but I also do not endorse him for any office within the party.

    There is no office of president in the party. If there were, I would not accept a nomination to that office. I have made it abundantly clear that I am not running for any office at any level. It would be a courtesy to me if people would stop nominating me.

    There is no office of Village Idiot. I’m not sure Rice is that bright.
    10/11/2008 – 23:16

    =========================

    I have not sought, nor would accept, any office.

    -p

  15. paulie cannoli

    Is J.W. Smith a incestuous child rapist? I do not know. But what is confirmed without doubt is that he’s estranged from his daughter. That should be his focus, not running as the “favorite son” nominee of a distant third-party ticket.

    I have no idea either. To my knowledge I have never met or talked to Mrs. Barnes. I have however met John Wayne Smith on a number of occasions.

    I’m not leveling any charge against Mrs. Barnes, since I don’t know her. But what if she is insane? Some mentally ill people level false charges of child abuse. If you have someone who is mentally ill in your family, you would not be able to run for office?

    Of course, maybe she is telling the truth. I have no idea, nor is anything I said meant to imply that I do.

  16. George Dance

    Tom Knapp:

    Mr. Dance,
    Always happy to be of assistance.

    You note that the DoJ and I agree that the material in question is, per the applicable law, “child pornography.” I’m curious as to why you don’t acknowledge (and in fact try, implicitly, to deny) that in the column you reference, Mr. Barr agrees with both the DoJ and myself, and then advocates on behalf of distributing it.

    I am happy to acknowledge, like Mr. Barr, that keeping trial evidence private (as you and the DOJ seem to agree should have been done) violates both the U.S. and Georgia constitutions.

    Frankly, I am curious why you think those constitutions should be violated in the Wilson case, at the same time your party has been publicizing the allegations against Mr. Smith. Of course, that was done to comply with the BTP’s internal rules rather than the Constitution — maybe that’s the difference you see.

  17. JimDavidson

    Tom sent me a long thread of the internal discussions of the Jay campaign about the John Wayne Smith and Dagny Kira Barnes matter. He did so because he felt it was essential to get my input, reversing a view he expressed in the correspondence itself that bringing it to my attention would make it a national committee matter.

    I have stood with Tom on the issue of openness. I had no idea that he and Darcy and Charles were planning to disaffiliate the Florida chapter. I certainly don’t agree with Mr. Jay’s accusation that I demanded to see anyone’s private correspondence. In defense of myself on that point, I have posted extensively to btpnc-talk at yahoogroups.com on the matter, including my exact words in response to Jay, Knapp, and Richardson.

    In point of fact, Charles Jay is lying because I said that the party had no role in running his campaign’s internal affairs. I also made light of Tom’s suggestion that he should post his grocery list to the national committee.

    I think Kent McManigal’s recent response to me on the national committee list is very helpful. I provide it below for the record.

    (Things on btpnc and btpnc-talk are public. They are open to the members of the party to see and discuss there. Members of the media should not be shy about copying material from there and posting it here, if you want to speed things along.)

    — On Mon, 10/20/08, Kent McManigal wrote:

    > From: Kent McManigal
    > Subject: [btpnc] Re: Why I am not resigning
    > To: btpnc@yahoogroups.com
    > Date: Monday, October 20, 2008, 10:26 AM
    > Jim, I am glad you are not resigning. You did nothing wrong
    > and should
    > not be punished or scolded for your actions in this
    > difficult drama.
    >
    > I don’t have much of a stomach for all this
    > “political nonsense” and
    > have simply been reading, absorbing, and not responding.
    > It always
    > seems that when someone tries to do something helpful,
    > others decide to
    > crap on it.
    >
    > Allegations of sexual abuse should not be given more weight
    > than any
    > other allegations of initiated force, yet they are. You
    > can now
    > destroy someone’s life with a few words. That is
    > unfortunate and
    > ridiculous.
    >
    > As for shutting down the FL affiliate, I have little
    > patience for
    > people who take their toys and go home when things
    > don’t go their way.
    >
    > This whole episode has been blown way out of proportion and
    > been used
    > as an excuse for petty bickering and power plays.

  18. paulie cannoli

    Source

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/btpnc-talk/message/205

    Here is the first message;

    > > > On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 7:18 PM, Thomas Knapp
    > > > wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > Charles and Darcy,
    > > > >
    > > > > I just received a phone call from a lady named Dagny. To get straight
    > > > > to the point:
    > > > >
    > > > > She claims that her maiden name was Dagny Smith, that her father is
    > > > > John Wayne Smith, and that he sexually molested her from the time she
    > > > > was 8 until she ran away at 13. Other allegations as well, but most of
    > > > > them going to “weird and possibly illegal but consensual” (e.g.
    > > > > bigamy) rather than “weird, clearly illegal and evil.”
    > > > >
    > > > > Let me be clear here: She was not threatening to do anything — “going
    > > > > public,” etc. She just said she saw his name on her sample ballot, and
    > > > > thought that the BTP should know.
    > > > >
    > > > > I empathized with her, explained to her that this is obviously not the
    > > > > kind of thing that we’d choose to highlight in late October of an
    > > > > election year when the guy is on our ticket … but that if her claims
    > > > > are true (and my gut feeling is that they are), it’s better that we
    > > > > know them than not so that we can do what we need to do. She was more
    > > > > than happy to consent to my sharing her information with two gentlemen
    > > > > from Florida. She’s fine with being called — 772-418-7580; she works
    > > > > during the day.
    > > > >
    > > > > I don’t see any benefit in doing anything with this information beyond
    > > > > being more careful with JWS, trying to find out a little more and
    > > > > establish the veracity of the allegations, and if they seem valid
    > > > > working on easing him out of any substantial role in the BTP. It would
    > > > > obviously not benefit the party — at least in the long-term, and I’m
    > > > > not tempted to do it for some possibly vote-beneficial short-term
    > > > > notoriety — to announce that one of its candidates is a sexual
    > > > > predator.
    > > > >
    > > > > Thoughts?
    > > > >
    > > > > Tom

    Here is Todd Andrew Barnett’s response to Dagny Barnes. Unless by some odd coincidence they know each other, Todd does not know Mrs. Barnes and whether or not she is telling the truth any more than I do.

    > > > Dear Miss Barnes:
    > > >
    > > > I’m responding to your outrageous accusation against John Wayne Smith,
    > > > who currently serves as the Chair of the Florida Boston Tea Party. I was
    > > > going to respond to you initially, but I decided at the last minute to
    > > > hold off until I obtained John’s side of the story.
    > > >
    > > > Normally, I don’t go out of my to involve myself in the affairs of other
    > > > Party members (especially party officers at the national or state levels
    > > > or both), but since you made it my business, I had to get John’s word
    > > > before I took any action in the interests of the BTP.
    > > >
    > > > John Wayne Smith has admitted that he is your father and also notes that
    > > > he hasn’t seen and spoken with you in six years. He also tells us that
    > > > this isn’t the first time you leveled accusations against him, as you’ve
    > > > done this frome time to time. And he also tells us that you had been
    > > > staying with your stepmother, especially after he and she had divorced
    > > > in 1988.
    > > >
    > > > However, he denies that he did any wrongdoing on his part, especially
    > > > the sexual molestation charge itself. He has been living with this crap
    > > > coming from you for years. Not only that, he has told us that there is
    > > > simply no way for him to defend himself and he chooses not to.
    > > >
    > > > Dagny, do you have any evidence to support your child abuse claim
    > > > against your father? Because, unless you have that evidence to support
    > > > your case and unless you have pressed criminal charges against him, your
    > > > accusation is nothing short of slander. I don’t believe your claim,
    > > > because if it were true, you would have taken criminal and legal action
    > > > against him a long time ago. Your credibility means nothing in the grand
    > > > scheme of things. And your behavior in this regard is outright
    > > > disgusting, if I may say so.
    > > >
    > > > Once again, unless you have evidence to support your claim, then the
    > > > Boston Tea National Committee will treat your claim as a bogus one.
    > > >
    > > > If it were a libel, then your father would have grounds to sue you, and,
    > > > in the eyes of the law, it would be rightfully so.
    > > >
    > > > I am standing by John in this difficult time for him. Many members of
    > > > the Boston Tea Party, including its Florida affiliate, stand by him as
    > well.
    > > >
    > > > Please do us a favor and leave your father alone. Like my chairman, I
    > > > suspect you have a lot of growing up to do.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Yours in Liberty,
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Todd Andrew Barnett
    > > > Vice Chair, Boston Tea National Committee

  19. paulie cannoli

    You….dont believe in Mental illness?

    *twilight theme music*

    Not everybody does.

    However, it does have symptoms. GE, do you think all people who exhibit those symptoms are clear headed and just acting out?

  20. Thomas L. Knapp

    Mr. Dance,

    You write:

    “Frankly, I am curious why you think those constitutions should be violated in the Wilson case”

    I don’t believe that I ever said I think any such thing. In point of fact, I believe that evidence in criminal trials should be a matter of public record — just like Bob Barr does.

    It’s worth noting, however, that Barr’s leading opponent was smeared for a much less staunchly and objectively pro-child-pornography position than he himself publicly took a decade after she took hers — by some of the same people who ended up supporting Barr “versus that lady whom we’ve been told supports child porn.”

    To paraphrase James Carville: “It’s the hypocrisy, stupid.”

    Regards,
    Tom Knapp

  21. paulie cannoli

    Dagny Barnes lives in Florida, Todd Barnett lives in Michigan. She learned that John Wayne Smith is on the ballot by receiving her sample ballot, thus it it’s unlikely they know each other.

    He characterizes her accusations as outrageous crap.

    They may be – or they may not be. Simply assuming that they are just because she did not come forward and seek legal action is not enough reason in my mind to make such a determination.

    Many victims of sexual abuse do not come forward for many years. Legal action is a very daunting process. Someone so far removed from the situation should probably not presume to know what happened and what didn’t.

  22. paulie cannoli

    > > > Dagny Barnes
    > > > Add as Friend
    > > > October 15 at 5:19pm
    > > >
    > > > You do realize that John Wayne Smith is a bigamist, pedophile and that
    > > > anynoe who spends anytime with him would realize this in about 3 minutes
    > or
    > > > less?

    I will however note that I’ve spent considerably more time with Mr. Smith than three minutes, and had no idea that he is a pedophile or bigamist, if he is one.

  23. Thomas L. Knapp

    Jim,

    You write:

    “Tom sent me a long thread of the internal discussions of the Jay campaign about the John Wayne Smith and Dagny Kira Barnes matter. He did so because he felt it was essential to get my input, reversing a view he expressed in the correspondence itself that bringing it to my attention would make it a national committee matter.”

    I’m pretty sure that what I sent you was a message, with you as a recipient, IN that thread, with the messages being replied to included. Not trying to be persnickety here — just pointing out that you got what you got because you were brought into a conversation, not because I sat down and compiled a list of messages to send you. I’d be interested in knowing what you did get, and think that you mentioned having published it somewhere. There may be omitted material, and that omitted material might be explanatory.

    You want to know the real hell of it? This matter is not and never was the national committee’s business!

    The national party nominated me, not John Wayne Smith, for vice-president. It was the Florida BTP which placed him on the ballot as VP, not the national BTP. It was, in terms of oversight, entirely a Florida, and not a national, matter.

    This is the case because of my own flagrant repudiation of the bylaws in suggesting that state affiliates choose their own “favorite sons or daughters” instead of the national VP nominee (me) to fill the BTP slot — a repudiation which, when acted upon by the states, was in fact legitimate grounds for disaffiliation by the national committee had said committee chosen to act on it.

    “No, you idiot … the Romans!”

  24. Thomas L. Knapp

    Quoth Paulie:

    “I will however note that I’ve spent considerably more time with Mr. Smith than three minutes, and had no idea that he is a pedophile or bigamist, if he is one.”

    I’ve spent about three minutes with Mr. Smith (during a cigarette break in Denver), and did not walk away assuming he was a pedophile.

    I do not assume that Ms. Barnes’s allegations of molestation are true. The objective evidence isn’t there to support or refute the allegations. It’s “she said, he said.”

    However, my personal opinion, based on more than an hour of conversation with her, is that she believes them to be true, that her initial “I’m going to tell everyone I know” outburst was emotive and quickly reconsidered, and that she deserves to be treated better than she has been treated in her interactions with the party.

    Of course, Mr. Barnett did not have the benefit of that conversation. He saw a threat, and he acted, in his view, to preemptively defend the party. I believe he was horribly mistaken — completely excusably for not knowing, and on the “content of response” end, forgivably given certain personal issues which he has since elaborated on.

    A number of us, myself included, have acted hastily, hot-headedly, and angrily in this whole matter. It will pass. Some relationships it has affected will probably be restored to amity, some probably won’t.

    It would only take me a few minutes to make a list of 50 things I wish hadn’t happened with this, and at least 10-20 of them would be things I was either wholly or partially responsible for causing to happen.

    In the meta sense, on the other hand, I don’t believe that I have any apologies to make. The Boston Tea Party is needed, and it is here. I helped make that happen, and I’m glad I did.

  25. Thomas L. Knapp

    Trent,

    She’s named after Dagny Taggart and Kira Argounova. I believe her sister is named after two other Ayn Rand characters, one of them being Dominique Francon from The Fountainhead.

  26. Ross Levin

    With all due respect, I don’t think any party is needed. This is a perfect example of how they’re a corrosive force and they really shouldn’t be part of our government.

  27. JimDavidson

    Ross, it is an interesting point, and one that was made many decades ago.

    With all due respect, I don’t think any government is needed. This presidential campaign’s ambition to control the Boston Tea Party is an excellent example of how political ambition is a corrosive force and really shouldn’t be part of our party.

    We have a party because we want one. If you don’t want a party, don’t join one.

    The key critical problem with a party that is only online is no actual parties seem to take place. Ninety percent of the current controversy would likely not have happened if the principals had been able to get drunk together.

  28. paulie cannoli

    However, my personal opinion, based on more than an hour of conversation with her, is that she believes them to be true, that her initial “I’m going to tell everyone I know” outburst was emotive and quickly reconsidered, and that she deserves to be treated better than she has been treated in her interactions with the party.

    I agree.

  29. hogarth

    They may be – or they may not be. Simply assuming that they are just because she did not come forward and seek legal action is not enough reason in my mind to make such a determination.

    Paulie, it’s worse than that. Todd says later (and publicly – after he apologized to her) that:

    I don’t believe her. I think she’s a liar. … I think she’s batshit crazy. PERIOD!!!

    Why don’t I believe her? Because, in my experience, women can and will say anything for sympathy and they have an agenda. The latter is their primary motivation.

    And then Todd goes on to describe at some length an incident which apparently ‘taught’ him this about women.

    I really do pity Todd, and anyone who feels this way about an entire group of people. This is collectivist thinking at its most depressing.

  30. Trent Hill

    Sounds like John Wayne Smith is too much of a Randian to me. I loved her writings, but I can’t stand Randroids.

  31. paulie cannoli

    And then Todd goes on to describe at some length an incident which apparently ‘taught’ him this about women.

    I really do pity Todd, and anyone who feels this way about an entire group of people. This is collectivist thinking at its most depressing.

    I haven’t read Todd’s account of his experience yet, but I have had some experiences that could easily make me a chauvinist bigot if I did not actively resist collectivist thinking. It’s an easy thing to give in to.

  32. JimDavidson

    Tom, the national party gets to review information brought to the attention of the national officers. Todd and myself acted on information we were presented which we felt rose to the level of being a concern to the party.

    John Wayne Smith was, at the time the accusations were hurled through the transom, chair of the state affiliate in Florida of the party. Do you honestly believe that the national party has no business considering an allegation of criminal wrongdoing against the chair of one of the state affiliates? We have the power to create state affiliates and to remove them, if I understand the party’s bylaws (which I don’t like to read).

    C’mon. This idea that after making it the party’s business it wasn’t the party’s business is just silly.

    You didn’t have his back. His daughter tried to stab him in the back, and you weren’t there for your friend. I think that’s kind of sad.

    I gather from John that there was an actual court case for bigamy. I had not known that. Did your friends in Florida do any research on this guy before throwing him on the ballot where his daughter could see his name? Apparently, there was no conviction, but I don’t know if adjudication is still deferred. I don’t see where private family relationships are any of the state’s business, but I do think it is sort of amusing that John’s three wives sat on the front row during the hearing, each with a child on her lap. Little wonder the judge didn’t send him to prison.

    I believe that essentially all aspects of what makes this matter before us now a controversy are about openness, about who gets to discuss stuff, and to a minor extent, about how they choose to say what they say.

    It is sort of funny to see Tom taking Barr and Dance to task on hypocrisy on this particular thread. I took Tom to task for how he chose to criticise Todd for how Todd chose to critique Dagny’s message. I also took Susan Hogarth to task on the same grounds – yelling at great length about how things are said to outsiders may, finally, have become sufficiently embarrassing when it becomes clear that how things are said to members of the party also matters.

    We were just making some headway on that issue, having learned that in spite of her feistiness and willingness to call people names the members of BTP support the endorsement of Hogarth by a vast majority, when Susan noted that she had been hasty and intemperate in some comments and actually agreed with the point on how things are said making a difference. I’m very pleased. Yay!

    But, then, almost immediately, Tom decided to call Chris a conspirator for destroying the party. And Chris had been posting about how he wanted to cease all the infighting and was really looking forward to building a bigger and better party. Nuts.

    And, of course, Charles Jay says that I insist on seeing all his private correspondence. Didn’t happen. He’s lying.

    One of the massively sad things about this whole situation is that people don’t seem to be calling each other up. Tom insisted that I not phone him up until the convention ends. So, there can be no back channel to reassure anyone.

    Charles didn’t ask me to resign, he sent Chris to ask me to resign. Nuts. Why should I resign? And why is he too timid to ask me himself?

  33. Jason_Gatties

    When its all said and done, I hope some of these fences can be mended. People can laugh at the BTP all they want, but the bottom line is, under the leadership of Jim Davidson, the current EC & Tom Knapp, the party did some amazing things this election cycle.

    Charles Jay may not be everyone’s favorite candidate, but the man did get some national media attention, which again, is amazing.

    The BTP are “infants” in the political arena and yeah, you will fall down from time to time while learning to walk. But the BTP will get there, but only if the current members and activists remain strong and active.

  34. JimDavidson

    Charles Jay makes an issue in his correspondence with you of why this message Todd received wasn’t brought to Charles. First, I think it is pretty clear that Charles had previously burnt his bridges with Todd, who recounts a phone call in which Charles was upset that Todd had not found 27 electors in Michigan for a write-in registration, though Todd had previously asked for help with this project.

    Second, I want to reiterate that I told Todd to go public with it. We contacted John to find out if he denied the allegation. Then we put it on the btpnc-talk list.

    Why not contact the campaign first? Because the party has to be independent of the campaign. And we cannot have the officers of the party making sure that the campaign approves of a discussion by the party of allegations against a state chair and candidate. What if the campaign had not approved of the discussion? Should we then have not had a discussion?

    Now, I’ve been pilloried for my role in this matter, by Charles, by you, and by Darcy. Todd has been pilloried, didn’t take it well, and resigned. Chris has been pilloried, also resigned. Elle, out of the blue, seems to say she is resigning. Or at least disgusted.

    Wow. One more member and the national committee is inoperative, I think. Good thing we’re filling it up next week.

  35. JimDavidson

    Jason, agreed. We have had a stunning rise in membership since June. We’ve formed sixteen state affiliates this year, and still have eleven. We’ve endorsed or nominated or put on write-registrations or ballots, something like 33 candidates, most of the LP. Something of a 150-day wonder.

    Yes, people are welcome to laugh at the Boston Tea Party. Laughter is joyous. More laughter, please. Some of this stuff is really very funny.

  36. G.E. Post author

    You….dont believe in Mental illness?

    Of course not. The concept was invented by eugenic-statists for purposes of social control.

    GE, do you think all people who exhibit those symptoms are clear headed and just acting out?

    Most of them. Others have actual physical damage to their brains.

    The APA used to classify homosexuality as a mental disorder. Now they don’t. Absolutely nothing about homosexuality has changed in the mean time.

    Mental illness is what the state calls undesirable behavior. Libertarianism, especially of the true variety, will one day soon be labeled a “mental illness” just as drapetomania once was.

    “These people are so mentally ill, they think the government is bad.”

  37. paulie cannoli

    Jim Davidson @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/btpnc-talk/message/206

    I urged Todd to act as he did and fully support publication of these horrid, absurd, and bizarre false allegations. If there were a shred of evidence to support these allegations, that should have been provided by the complainant.

    What evidence would she be likely to have all these years later, other than her word, if it happened?

    I wouldn’t jump to the conclusion that the allegations are false just because she has not identified witnesses (perhaps there were none) or preserved sperm samples.

    Indeed, lack of such evidence may explain why there was no court case. It does not, however, necessarily mean she is not telling the truth.

  38. Sean Scallon

    Thomas, next time you may want to do a background check on your vice-presidential candidates. I t would take long, a click on Google here, a People Search there. It wouldn’t long or cost too much.

  39. JimDavidson

    And he coerced a vote. Wow.

    John Wayne Smith wrote to me today: “I tried for 15 minutes to prevent it. I used all of the arguments available not to do so. Charles Jay was so intent to show his power that he made it known that he would throw me off the ticket if I did not agree. Final vote 4-0. Tom was not there and he has no reason to say that I really supported the action. If he is basing his argument on what Charles and Darcy say he is a fool.”

  40. JimDavidson

    GE, drapetomania, that was an interesting return to yesteryear for me. “Cartwright prescribed ‘whipping the devil out of them'” it says on wikipedia, much as George W Bush advocates waterboarding, I guess.

    Paulie, I probably should not have characterised them as provably false, though there is no rape kit, no criminal investigation, no witnesses, a denial by the only other person who could be a witness that this ever happened, a report by the accused that these accusations have come up before, a lack of flight by the accused to even suggest guilt, a lack of corroborating witnesses to any other sexual criminal conduct, a lack of any other history of violent or coercive crime.

    I wasn’t on the call with Tom, though I think his phone can conference people in (and I’m surprised he didn’t conference in John), but I think he is probably correct in his assessment that she believes the allegations to be true. Her determined belief is not itself evidence of the truth. People delude themselves into believing all kinds of things – look at those who voted for Bush in 2004, or Kerry.

    In my public responses to her, I went to great lengths not to call her a liar. I do think she compromised her appearance of honesty by telling Todd one thing and, when she got the attention she wanted from Tom, telling him another about eagerness to tell other people all about it.

    Nevertheless, my correspondence with Dagny, Charles, Tom, and Todd was intended to be private. Subsequent events made that impossible. I continue to hold that these allegations are false, but I am not certain that they are.

    I completely agree with Kent McManigal that such allegations ought not to be the kiss of death the way they have become. For some reason, politicians can lie about the causes of war and slaughter millions of people, but one allegation of sexual misconduct not even resulting in death, and everyone is horrified. There seems to be a disconnect here.

  41. JimDavidson

    Re: #46, I agree with Susan Hogarth.

    Todd’s comments are here:
    http://bostontea.us/node/338

    I disagree with sexism. I think Todd was wrong to make this blanket and sexist statement. Susan is correct that it is collectivist thinking at its most dreary.

    Not that it is any less dreary to be aware that many men do the same kinds of things, too. People generally can be pretty mean to each other. Nevertheless, the blanket assertion that all women have an agenda and so forth is just crap. It detracts from Todd’s message.

  42. JimDavidson

    By the way, I really liked the favorite son VP candidate strategy to get local attention.

    It also nicely counterpoints the people who take their third party campaigns too seriously to be believed. No matter what we do, we aren’t going to be on enough ballots to win the White House this year. We might make enough ballots in 2012, at which point we won’t be able to get enough votes to expect to win.

    By 2016, John Wayne Smith promises I can go live on Mars. At which point I join Cartman in saying, “Screw you guys, screw you guys, screw you guys.” I’m going, the minute I can get out of here.

  43. Thomas L. Knapp

    Some notes:

    – I decline credit for the growth of the party in the last few months. I’ve done relatively little. To the extent that any one person can claim credit for that growth, that person would be Jim Davidson.

    – Jim, I did not accuse Chris of being a “conspirator.” I stated that he was now conducting himself in a way that damages the party, as I believed you and Todd were both doing as well. I explicitly acknowledged that that conduct might not be intentional.

    – Jim, you say that Charles Jay “sent Chris to ask” you to resign. My understanding of what transpired — based on additional information, which I cannot objectively evaluate the quality of — is very different. I’m not prepared to publicly share that information until I’ve thought more about both its quality and relevance, but I will ask you, nicely (and understand if you decline) to hold your fire on that point. I’m open to a private discussion of it.

    – Jim, I’m not a phone person in the first place (I pay by the minute, for one thing), and right now I have an ongoing sore throat and toothache problem. A couple of times in a row now you’ve called me and either become upset, or for some other reason decided to hang up in mid-conversation. It’s not so much that I object to hearing from you by phone as that I’m frankly getting even more phone-shy than usual. Especially in this “so and so said” atmosphere. I don’t know if my phone does three-way calling and all that or not. If it does, I’ve never figured out how to use it. As far as conferencing John Wayne Smith in on a call with his daughter, I doubt that either would have consented, I didn’t know how to do it, I don’t have JWS’s phone number, and it just never occurred to me.

    — Sean, regarding background checks: If you find anything alarming on John Wayne Smith via a cursory background check by Google, etc., that has not appeared on the Internet since this controversy arose, let me know.

    Of course I Googled him when his name came up as a VP prospect (suggested, btw, by Darcy Richardson). I found nothing alarming. I knew that he was a long-time LP activist, that he had polled 16,000 votes for governor of Florida, etc. I knew that he was willing to work hard to make the party successful. I still know all those things, which was one reason I was prone to take the route of “look into this, but don’t blacken the guy’s name” approach.

    Even a paid-for background check would not likely have turned up anything like Ms. Barnes’s allegations, since there were never any charges, arrests, prosecutions, etc. I’m given to believe that he may have been prosecuted for bigamy at one point, but unless there was fraud to the other spouses involved I don’t consider that either a crime or reason to reject a candidate — and as a matter of fact, it’s exactly the kind of thing I’d like to see an issue made of.

    Regards,
    Tom Knapp

  44. mlirshfl

    Mr. Davidson had this to say:
    “Mr. Jay’s action to disaffiliate the Florida BTP was evidently not taken with consultation with its chair, John Wayne Smith. Then again, after John read all the things Darcy and Charles had to say about him, resigned in disgust and deleted (!) the Florida BTP yahoogroup. (I very much wish he had not, since that archive is valuable for future deliberations, and since someone now has to go make a new one.)”

    I, Nicholas Galindo, am the treasurer of the BTPFL and was in attendance during the vote to disaffiliate yesterday. Contrary to Mr. Davidson’s assertion, John Wayne Smith was also in attendance yesterday. He wholeheartedly agreed with the steps being taken and had ample opportunity to voice any disagreement he had. He had no objections. As a matter of record his opinion was solicited on several occasions. The vote to disaffiliate was unanimous and at no time had he voiced any wish not to continue in the campaign or party. However, he did mention that he planned to return to the LP after this election.

  45. paulie cannoli

    Good one on the btp-talk yahoo group

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/btpnc-talk/message/159


    Re: My Response to Dagny Kira Barnes

    Dear Todd,

    > Once again, unless you have evidence to support your claim,
    > then the Boston Tea National Committee will treat your claim
    > as a bogus one.

    That does seem very likely, but the national committee has the
    power to choose how it behaves. They do this odd thing called
    voting.

    > Like my chairman, I suspect you have a lot of growing up to do.

    That’s true, I do have a lot of growing up to do.

    Regards,

    Jim

  46. paulie cannoli

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/btpnc-talk/message/162

    So Mr. Barnett,

    You want to make this nasty and public. Why don’t you ask John about when he taught me how to give a hand job in the front seat of his
    taxi cab (Town taxi) when I was 8 years old. Or about when he taught me how to give a blowjob in the shower of the house that his brother,
    Bill owned outside of Leesburg going toward Tavares when I was 12.

    You are correct in that I don’t have any physical evidence to back up my claims, but I am at the moment I am 38 and all of these things
    happened between 27 and 30 years ago.

    And as for the part about him being a bigamist, it is part of the public record in Marion County, FL that while he was legally married to my mother in Lake County, FL he “married” a woman in Ocala (Marion county).

    I really was not trying to make this into a public forum, but if that is the way that you want it then so shall it be. I do not normally go out of my way to care one way or the other about if John even lives or dies, but I do believe that the people who run your political party have a right to know about the people who they put on
    the ballot for a national election.

    Hopefully you can see your way out of the fog and not slam me for trying to make sure that people like John do not harm your political
    party.

    Dagny Kira Barnes

  47. hogarth

    In my public responses to her, I went to great lengths not to call her a liar.

    How did that require *great lengths*? You have no idea of whether she is telling the truth, and it still was an effort for you not to call her a liar?

    There’ s something wrong with that.

    Ross: Bingo. It’s *exactly* like high school. For that, the BTP has primarily Jim Davidson, Chris Bennett, and Todd Barnett to blame. I hope that the next set of officers are more mature folks who will do credit to Knapp’s idea instead of making a mockery of it.

  48. George Dance

    Mr. Knapp:

    In point of fact, I believe that evidence in criminal trials should be a matter of public record — just like Bob Barr does.

    Oh, I see; that explains why you, and your party, have been misrepresenting his position as calling for the state “to distribute child pornography on demand.” Because you agree with his position; of course.

    It’s worth noting, however, that Barr’s leading opponent was smeared for a much less staunchly and objectively pro-child-pornography position than he himself publicly took a decade after she took hers

    As I recall, the person doing the most to promote that particular smear against Mary Ruwart — both on Nolan Chart and publicly in her radio interviews — was Christine Smith; and I was the only one taking her to task for that. (Which I can’t prove, as she deleted all her NC campaign articles after the convention.

    How did your party react to that? It’s also worth noting that, after Ms. Smith’s convention performance, you asked her to be your frickin’ Presidential candidate; just because she hated Bob Barr even more than she hated Ruwart.

    So please don’t try to convince me that the BTP has been doing it all for poor martyred Mary.

  49. paulie cannoli

    Ross: Bingo. It’s *exactly* like high school.

    I missed out on all that in high school (attended very rarely, was usually trashed on the few occasions I went). But it does remind me of the accounts I have read, seen portrayed and heard about.

    Ross would be in a pretty good position to know, since he is actually in high school now.

  50. JimDavidson

    Oh, huh, did anyone recall the reason *why* we had other people on the ballot for VP? I just remembered what prompted it in the first place.

    It is kind of tough to have the national committee move to discuss disaffiliating with a state affiliate that hasn’t put our VP candidate on the ballot when that VP candidate cannot get notarised forms to the state in question because, well, identity paper cluster f#ck.

  51. hogarth

    I missed out on all that in high school (attended very rarely, was usually trashed on the few occasions I went). But it does remind me of the accounts I have read, seen portrayed and heard about.

    I largely ‘missed out’ for different reasons, but I did observe. I suspect the folks I mentioned ‘missed out’ as well, and are only now getting the full high-school cliqueishness experience.

  52. JimDavidson

    Nick Galindo, John Wayne Smith says to me, in correspondence he approved me forwarding, which is now on the national list, that he did not agree with disaffiliation. He asserts that Charles threatened to kick him off the ticket. So he reluctantly, against his better judgement, voted yes.
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/btpnc-talk/message/226

    John says, “I tried for 15 minutes to prevent it. I used all of the arguments available not to do so. Charles Jay was so intent to show his power that he made it known that he would throw me off the ticket if I did not agree. Final vote 4-0.”

    So, I think you are either not accurately characterising the events that transpired, Nick, because you were not privy to whatever Charles did to make it known he would throw John off the ticket, or for some other reason.

    You say John “had no objections.” John says he spent 15 minutes trying to prevent it. I’m going to pick John as the witness to believe. I think you are lying.

  53. paulie cannoli

    In point of fact, I believe that evidence in criminal trials should be a matter of public record — just like Bob Barr does.

    Oh, I see; that explains why you, and your party, have been misrepresenting his position as calling for the state “to distribute child pornography on demand.” Because you agree with his position; of course.

    As I read it, Tom said that it was in fact child pornography, that Barr was calling on the state to make it available to the public, and that he agrees with Barr.

    I agree that it is child pornography, but I think that it should only be made available to the public if those depicted want it to be. Their attorneys and the state’s attorneys would not to see it, as would the judge and jury, for the purpose of the case. Why people not directly involved would need to see it, possibly (in the case of some) for the purpose of jerking off to movies of teenagers performing sexual acts (who did not even consent to being in publicly distributed films of same) – is not as readily obvious.

    But, even if you think it is obvious, that does not change the fact that it is “child pornography.” The teenagers involved are, legally, children, and they are videotaped engaging in sexual acts. If that is not pornography, what is?

  54. paulie cannoli

    As I recall, the person doing the most to promote that particular smear against Mary Ruwart — both on Nolan Chart and publicly in her radio interviews — was Christine Smith; and I was the only one taking her to task for that. (Which I can’t prove, as she deleted all her NC campaign articles after the convention.

    Although Smith chimed in, she was not the first or loudest voice in that particular chorus.

  55. JimDavidson

    Ms. Hogarth, I went to great lengths not to call her a liar because I don’t know for certain that she’s a liar. But, on your advice, I have said that I think Nick Galindo is lying, because his testimony is directly refuted by John Wayne Smith.

    Ross, I thought you weren’t interested in political parties. You say that there is no need for them and they are a corrupting influence on government. So why are you bothering to read this thread?

    High school is a time when people who have newly found convictions often express them for the first time in political action. My own difficulties in school were in the 8th grade, just before high school.

    But, I really don’t care what you think, Ross. I don’t at all agree with Ms. Hogarth in her views on this matter, either. I went to great lengths to hear her say that how things are expressed matters. And here she is, once again, blaming Chris, Todd, and myself for things that we didn’t start. Including defending ourselves from her vicious attacks on Chris on LFV, on Todd, and on me. Whee!

    George Dance – where has the Boston Tea Party characterised Barr’s position on the Wilson case in any way? Please point to it on our national site, or in the published deliberations of our national committee.

    Tom had proposed and I had agreed before our informal convention that if the LP had nominated Mary Ruwart, we would work to get our members to endorse her candidacy rather than run a candidate of our own. At the LP convention, after the final ballot, I gave Mary an invitation to our BTP convention personally. She was also nominated on our national site, before Christine Smith or George Phillies, as I recall. I was told by one of her campaign people that she declined the nomination.

    Hogarth would be completely mistaken about me. I got the full treatment of being an outsider in high school, beaten up every day at my locker, having my bike vandalised by the jocks. I was “in” with the drama and debate crowds, and with the techie nerds who liked to play risk and D&D.

    The fun part of this whole thing is that people think I can be embarrassed. I really can’t. I’m very proud of what I’ve done for the Boston Tea Party, the membership that I’ve built with Todd’s help, the new state affiliates, most of the candidates we’ve endorsed, the fact that we’re on the ballot in three states and registered write-in in three more, and the fact that we have so many activists.

    I still don’t like Hogarth very much. I’m certainly not looking for her approval. I was very pleased to have Kent McManigal’s approval, since he is someone whose views I admire a great deal.

    Keep in mind in your Jim-baiting exercises, people, that I’m not running for election. I have no dog in the race for chair. I am not running for election to public office. You can say whatever you want about me, dig up whatever dirt you can find, and it isn’t going to make me resign. I’m really very used to people being hateful and mean to me.

    My father used to slap my face until my nose would bleed if he didn’t like the way I had done “my” chores as assigned. That happened every two or three months, because there was never a level of satisfaction that could be met repeatedly, it always had to be ramped up. My mother used to beat me with a wooden stick my brother used to sandpaper his model airplanes, until my hands and arms were bruised and bloody. You can ask my brothers to corroborate. My brother Ken threatened to go to the police if Dad ever whipped Tom or me with a belt, as he did with older brothers Ken and John.

    I really, honestly, totally, do not care what you think of me. I am not the bad guy in this situation. And I have taken far worse. I lived through a beating in Houston where a dozen or so cops stood around while one of them broke eleven of my bones and left a gash on my eyebrow which is still a visible scar. I’ve been threatened with execution by the vice president of the Republic of Somaliland, in his office.

    So, really, if all you have is a few insults, and nothing better to do with your time than hurl them at me, wow. I am so harshed.

    If any one of you cowards had the courage to come knock on my door, we could have a nice fist fight in my back yard. Or bring a sword, we could duel.

    Pusillanimous peckerwoods.

  56. mlirshfl

    John Wayne Smith said: But, on your advice, I have said that I think Nick Galindo is lying, because his testimony is directly refuted by John Wayne Smith.

    My name is Nicholas Galindo and I take exception to being called a liar by someone that does not know me. I called you no name and my intent was to relay the facts as I heard them. Minutes were taken of the meeting and no such threat was given to JW Smith. And if John Wayne Smith calls me a liar I forgive him. Just as he said he forgives his daughter. You sir may continue to rant and spread more manure if you like but this is the last you will hear from me on this matter. If John Wayne Smith should be mad at anyone it should be you and this Todd for using him in the game you are playing.

  57. paulie cannoli

    John Wayne Smith said: But, on your advice, I have said that I think Nick Galindo is lying, because his testimony is directly refuted by John Wayne Smith.

    Jim Davidson said that, not John Wayne Smith. John Wayne Smith has yet to comment on this matter on IPR at all.

    Todd’s comments are here:
    http://bostontea.us/node/338

    Read this. I’ve been through worse more than once, yet still differentiate women as individuals.

  58. Ross Levin

    I’m not reading it. I’ve skimmed a few parts of it, that’s all. Hasn’t taken up more than five minutes of my time.

    The thing is, Jim, I’m pretty sure all of the people in the entire world that care about this drama have commented in this thread. So why bother with it? Why let it take up so much of your time when it’s really a pointless thing to argue about?

  59. paulie cannoli

    John Wayne Smith and Dagny Barnes have not commented here. Neither have Todd Barnett, Elle, Charles Jay, Darcy Richardson, Chris Bennett, and possibly others as well.

  60. Ross Levin

    Sorry. I left out 10 people.

    Unfortunately, there are hundreds of millions of voters who don’t even know what the Boston Tea Party is, let alone all of the political infighting associated with it.

  61. paulie cannoli

    True. But this site is for people who know what it is (or might want to know), and the comments on this thread are for those people who care.

    Thousands of people visit IPR every day. Some are different people, some are the same. Most do not leave comments. I don’t know what all threads they read. No idea what percent read the BTP-related items, and of those, how many read the comments.

    There are at least several hundred people who care about the BTP enough to join, and an unknown number of others who care enough to disparage it. Everyone else is free to read countless other websites, or even the vast majority of articles at IPR that are not BTP related.

    Most of the principle actors in this melodrama have not commented here.

    Some of those who have commented may have more to say later.

    You’ve commented several times, so you care to at least some extent.

  62. Ross Levin

    But that’s missing the point of my comment. Whether it’s on a huge scale or a small scale, politics like this is stupid. That’s my opinion and I’m standing by it.

    And just so you know, I registered in my school’s mock election as a member of the Boston Tea Party.

  63. JimDavidson

    Nick, you write, “My name is Nicholas Galindo and I take exception to being called a liar by someone that does not know me.”

    I didn’t call you a liar. I said that I think you are lying. John Wayne Smith wrote to me and I forwarded his message to the btpnc-talk list. If you have any doubts about his claim that John Wayne Smith spent 15 minutes trying to prevent the disaffiliation of the FloridaBTP, call him up and ask him about it. I have no doubt about his word in this matter.

    If you have any doubts about John Wayne Smith’s statement that Charles Jay let it be known that John would be kicked off the ticket, ask John. I have no doubt about his word in this matter. John is available by phone and by e-mail and he lives in your state Nick.

    If the minutes don’t reflect the comments John made trying to prevent the disaffiliation, then the minutes are not truthful nor complete.

    Nick, I’m not playing a game. I’m determined not to let Charles Jay set a precedent that a presidential campaign, especially a badly run one that has no chance of winning office, can corrupt the national party, cause its officers to abuse their power, or force its will on the party. That is a principled action on my part.

    You and the Florida crowd are playing a game called taking your ball and going home. Only, it turns out, it wasn’t entirely your ball. So, John got pissed off, mostly about the words Charles and Darcy had about the sexual abuse allegation, and left your group and deleted the FloridaBTP yahoogroup. You guys really ought to secure your assets before you dump one of your leaders under the bus.

    So, you can say it was 4-0, but I say it was 3-1 and Charles held a gun to John’s head, figuratively. You can say that John never said a thing to prevent it, but John says he did, and I don’t have any reason to trust you.

    I think you are lying. I didn’t say you are a liar, because it hasn’t been proven that you are lying. But I think it. There! I just thought it again.

    I thought Nick Galindo was an interesting and useful guy some weeks ago. I thought it was good to see his comments on the Florida BTP list. Just now, I thought he was lying. Whoops, thought it again.

    If you don’t like me thinking you are lying, then either don’t lie, or persuade me that you didn’t lie. Maybe get the liar Charles Jay, who provably wrote false things about what I wrote, to corroborate your testimony.

    If you think I may have called you a liar, and sue me for slander, I’ll counter sue you, for slander. Because I didn’t. I can think you are lying all day and all night, and there isn’t any law against it. I can tell people that I think you are lying, and there isn’t anything you can do about. Because it is true that I think you are lying. And I’m going to continue to think it as long as there is evidence for it.

  64. JimDavidson

    Ross, I enjoy commenting on it. And I’m the chair of the party, so it is my job to comment on it. This thread is the first hit on news.google.com for “Boston Tea Party” so of course I’m reading what is stated here and responding as I see fit.

    It is a form of entertainment. Like playing pong in the 1970s and an old Atari table arcade in the dormitories at a public university. It isn’t a lot of fun, but it is slightly interactive.

  65. JimDavidson

    Ross, I am very pleased that you registered as a Boston Tea Party voter in your school’s mock election. I revise my previous statement. I now care somewhat what you think.

    Politics can be very unpleasant. Yes, there is a thick vein of stupidity here which might be mined for future stupidity shortages, if they come up. Einstein said that the only thing more common in the universe than hydrogen is human stupidity, so we may be reassured on that point.

    But, this is the aspect of politics that crops up when someone takes a principled stand against secrecy and corruption and abuse of power and the kind of power play we’re seeing here. They killed the messenger, Todd. They killed Todd’s friend, Chris, who only somewhat supported Todd. They’re after me, now.

    But I’m the kind of @sshole who won’t resign when they are good and ready for me to resign, so they’ve moved on to extortion. So they took their ball and ran home because they don’t want to play in the same sandbox with me. Really, their metaphor.

    And I’m still not relenting. I still won’t let the campaign for president determine the actions of the national party’s chair. Charles Jay is outraged.

    When Todd couldn’t find 27 electors in Michigan for write-in registration, he asked Charles for help. Charles spoke with Todd on the phone and ranted and raved and really insisted that Todd was a little worm, or so I gather. I also understand that by this point in their relationship, Charles had made it clear he was going to go ballistic, so Todd took the precaution of taping the conversation. Darcy Richardson has a copy of the digital file. Todd’s laptop was down last I heard, so it may be a while before we get to hear that tape, but I see no reason not to believe Todd’s account of it.

    John Wayne Smith has said that he regrets having been on the ticket with Charles Jay, that Jay is not half the man that Barr is, and that Barr is not much of a man either. He said that after seeing what Darcy, Tom, and Charles were saying about the sex abuse scandal.

    Ross, wrestling in a cesspool is stupid. So, right now, I’m struggling to get out. But the other wrestlers keep dragging me back. I was body checked into the cess pool when Tom, Darcy, and Charles began to attack Todd. Todd drowned. Chris tried to help and he’s drowned. Elle Larkin resigned, I think, if I understand her message (it was a bit cryptic).

    Next weekend, I get to get out of the cess pit and go do something else. Until then, I’m defending the principle of openness against conspirators for secrecy. I’m standing up for my friends Todd, Chris, and John.

    I didn’t ask for this fight, Ross. But I’m a nasty and tough old man. I am mean, I am cussed, and I am ornery. And I’m right. Which means I won’t back down.

  66. MattSwartz

    The Verdict:

    By November 5th, the BTP will have generated more angry blogposts than votes.

  67. Gene Trosper

    And the BTP begins its slide into irrelevancy.

    I’ve come to the conclusion that libertarians just don’t belong in politics.

  68. Jason_Gatties

    Well Richard, I don’t care to read some of the snarky comments about the BTP, but I keep quiet cause you are entitled to your opinion.

    To answer your apparent question though, I care.

  69. Jason_Gatties

    Gene, I wouldn’t be running for BTP Chairman if I felt we were going to slide into irrelevancy. One thing I refuse to do is waste my time.

    The more I’ve tried to work within the LP, the more I feel like an outsider. If the BTP is going to be my political home, then I’m going to fight for the movement and hope to introduce some much needed stability. My only regret is, I wish I was more involved earlier.

  70. paulie cannoli

    Who cares?

    A bunch of people, since it has been a relatively hot topic of conversation today. Had they chosen to do so, the same folks could have left the post without comments, or at least without theirs. There are any number of posts begging for comments here, and of course plenty of other sites as well.

    Why would anyone who does not care waste the time to even say so, or ask who cares when at least some people obviously do?

  71. Catholic Trotskyist

    Jim, do you live in a state where the BTP is on the ballot? If so, will you still vote for Charles Jay? What about anyone else who was thinking about voting for Jay and still can? This, after all, is really the most important question.

    I would like to express sympathies from the chairman of the Catholic Trotskyist Party of America for the difficult situation that its fellow new party, the Boston Tea Party, has found itself in. The Catholic Trotskyist Party of America has officially requested for the pope to pray for the Boston Tea Party, and has also requested that the Catholic Church add a special prayer for the Boston Tea Party in this Sunday’s liturgy.

  72. Catholic Trotskyist

    Yes richard, a lot of people care. Why is this the hottest topic here instead of the Nader-McKinney debate?

  73. paulie cannoli

    Just passed the page views from the 7th, so this is the most pageviews we had in a day since the 30th and the most unique visitors since the 29th.

    So, I guess some people care.

  74. JimDavidson

    MattSwartz, please count them. I’ll bet you a six pack of your favorite beer, or $20, whichever you are legally allowed to consume, that there are more votes for Boston Tea Party nominees and endorsed candidates than angry blog posts. You and I will have to work out some way of establishing which blog posts are angry, though.

    Most of mine are more in sorrow….

    Catholic Trotskyist do you know what a “premature anti-Stalinist” is? My mother was one.

    No, I do not live in a state where Jay is on the ballot and there is no write-in allowed in this state. I would still NOT vote for anyone, because I am not registered to vote, because voting is madness. See my essay:

    http://indomitus.net/madnessofvoting.html

    Still the number one link for the quoted string “voting is madness” on google.

    No one has ever been able to expect my vote. I think most voters who see his name on the ballot are going to like the fact that it is short, historical (see John Jay), sounds American, and the party name is cool. Many people are going to cast protest votes accordingly.

    Would you mind asking Trotsky to pray for us?

    Who is Nader-McKinney?

  75. JimDavidson

    Da, tovarisch. He said he’d have the Pope pray. But that seems half-@ssed coming from a Catholic Trotskyist. If he gets the Pope to pray, shouldn’t his Trotskyist side get involved?

    I come from a long line of premature anti-Stalinists. Okay, a short line, but mother is sensitive about her height.

  76. Catholic Trotskyist

    Yes Jim, I have heard of the term premature anti-stalinist, along with the premature anti-fascists. The Trotskyists are among the most oppressed political groups, even more than the libertarians, and that is why God decided to have me declare myself among that group, along with declaring myself part of the largest denomination in the world, the Catholic church. Yes, I will have Trotsky pray for you, which he is now able to do since his soul finally transmigrated from purgatory to heaven.

    And I agree that Charles Jay will get some protest votes from people who don’t know what the situation is. I only hope that in Florida, those will come from conservatives rather than liberals, as this will interfere with God’s candidate, Barack H. Obama. The Nader-McKinney was referring to the post about the fact that Nader and McKinney had a debate against each other yesterday.

  77. Catholic Trotskyist

    And here’s another comment, just to make sure that this thread will have 100 comments.

  78. hogarth

    Hogarth would be completely mistaken about me. I got the full treatment of being an outsider in high school, beaten up every day at my locker, having my bike vandalised by the jocks. I was “in” with the drama and debate crowds, and with the techie nerds who liked to play risk and D&D.

    No, I get that about you, Jim. That was my point, actually. That’s why I said “I suspect the folks I mentioned ‘missed out’ as well…”. My point was that now you boys get to pretend you’re in high school, but without all the unpleasant getting-beat-up part.

    The problem is that D&D culture is even less suited to the real world of interacting human beings than fraternity (or proto-frat, as we’re talking about high school) culture.

    The fun part of this whole thing is that people think I can be embarrassed. I really can’t.

    I get that. I really do.

    If any one of you cowards had the courage to come knock on my door, we could have a nice fist fight in my back yard. Or bring a sword, we could duel.

    SCA, too, eh? Figures.

    Paulie: Many people love a trainwreck. I’m not sure that’s the same thing as ‘caring’. Witness the Biden-Palin debate.

  79. paulie cannoli

    SCA?

    As for caring…of the people who have commented so far, I’d guess me, you, Tom, Jim, Jason Gatties, and Nick all care. A few other people care in a different way, because they see the BTP as either a distraction from the LP or a potential threat to it. And then we have some people who claim or imply they don’t care, but they care enough to make it known. I’ll go out on a limb and deduce they care in some fashion and wish they didn’t.

  80. C. Al Currier

    “Well Richard…. but I keep quiet cause you are entitled to your opinion. –Jason Gatties ”

    Study: 38% Of People Not Actually Entitled To Their Opinion
    http://www.theonion.com/content/node/61948

    I’m not convinced that Richard’s entitlement is valid. He might not be part of the 62% who qualify.

  81. Michael Seebeck

    I hope someone is writing a script about this. West Wing has nothing on this soap opera…. LOL!

  82. JimDavidson

    Michael, it is my understanding that Todd is writing a one man play in three acts based on the comedy stylings of the Boston Tea Party. I’ve promised to attend opening night.

    Ross, there are a great many things that could be handled more diplomatically. Lies generally can’t. See also Gulf of Tonkin, weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, etc. Exposing the truth saves lives.

    Unless you make your saving throw, a lie can ruin someone’s life.

    Actually, Hogarth, I fenced in college. Real men fence with steel. SCA pansies fence with rattan.

    voice=John Cleese “A pointed stick? Ooooo.”

  83. JimDavidson

    No, Ross, there were not. This has been established now very thoroughly. You may recall that Colin Powell, George W. Bush, and others told lies about these non-existent weapons. Earlier, Madeline Albright had told similar lies. A great many people died as a result.

  84. dagnyb

    this was the post:
    •79
    paulie cannoli
    Oct 20, 2008 at 9:30 pm
    John Wayne Smith and Dagny Barnes have not commented here. Neither have Todd Barnett, Elle, Charles Jay, Darcy Richardson, Chris Bennett, and possibly others as well.

    So I, Dagny Kira Barnes, am here responding. and just so it is clear I was told in a Facebook message that there are now 5000 webpages on the issue re: John Wayne Smith. I did a Google search and also a Windows Live search and was only able to find this one website.

    so where to begin:

    1. I am not “batshit crazy” or seeking publicity.

    2. I did think the the members of the BTP needed to know what kind of person John is.

    3. Todd Barnett sent me a seemingly heartfelt apology on 10/17/2008 and then 3 days later on 10/20/08 completely recinded that apology by saying the following:

    Another point that should be raised is that I’m guilty of responding ethically and fairly to an email message that needed to be responded in that fashion. I am now retracting my apology to Dagny Kira Barnes, because I should never have apologized to her, simply because:

    I don’t believe her.
    I think she’s a liar.
    I think she’s doing this for publicity and not for the welfare of the voters in her home state and for the entire electorate of the country
    I think she’s batshit crazy. PERIOD!!!
    Why don’t I believe her? Because, in my experience, women can and will say anything for sympathy and they have an agenda. The latter is their primary motivation.

    4. Jom Davidson has continually attacked my honesty, credibility as well as my mental health. He also has decided in all of his infinite wisdom that between the ages of 8 -13 that I should have also been thinking like a cop/detective and should have been collecting evidence i.e. audio tape, video tape and perhaps some genetic material as well.

    I really have been trying very hard to be understanding about the reasons why Todd and Jim would attack me so personally, but it seems to me that they either, don’t like women, don’t want anyone to question the people who are associated with their organization, or god forbid don’t like people who are willing to tell them the truth and not back away from the truth.

    I have spent the majority of my adult life staying far away from John and anything that he is associated with. There have been a few brief periods of time when that was not so, and that was when I was trying to have some sort of reconciliation with John. Everytime that I have tried to reconcile with him, he turns around and does outrageous things that remind me of why not having him in my life is such a good thing.

    I understand that there are people who will read what I have read and either like it or hate it, will either believe it or won’t. I respect people’s opinions whether or not they agree with me or not. What I DO NOT respect is attacking me just for stating the facts as I know them to be.

    Well that is all I have to say at the moment. And, for the record, paulie cannoli thank you very much for the things that you have said.

    Thanks for reading,

    Dagny Kira Barnes

  85. dagnyb

    One more thing, here is Todd’s entire email apology to me:

    Dear Miss Barnes:

    I want to apologize for how I handled you yesterday, particularly with
    the way I was being insensitive of your plight. I didn’t mean to come
    off as rude and insensitive about it. So I apologize on that account.
    Maybe I should have responded differently, and I know I should have, but
    what’s done is done. It’s water under the bridge, and there’s no coming
    back to the way things were before this issue came to light.

    In a nutshell, I was wrong about how I handled the whole deal, and I’m
    sorry for that. I hope you can accept my apologies there.

    As for me bringing this matter to light to my party member base, I did
    what I felt was right. I make no apologies for that. Without being rude
    or insensitive about this matter, let’s not ignore the fact that you did
    bring your case to my attention on Facebook, and you did threaten to go
    public with this matter in your message to me. How else was I supposed
    to handle that? What would you have me do, even though the charge you
    made against your father was serious and warranted attention to the
    National Committee? Would you prefer that I ignore it? How do you think
    that would have made the BTP look if I had swept it under the rug? Not
    well. Responding to this matter probably didn’t help the situation as
    well, but I can imagine the worse being the other case. I have never
    swept any serious matters in the past in the rug, and I don’t intend to
    do it now, especially with this charge now out and in the open.

    I’m puzzled as to why you came to me with this matter. I’m not exactly
    sure of what you tried to accomplish by doing that. I do, however,
    believe that you believe that the charge is true and that your father
    committed a series of atrocious acts against you when you were a child.
    It’s hard to say whether there is any truth to that.

    The reason I did respond to you the way I did initially was because I
    know what it’s like to be accused of something without hard evidence. I
    was accused of legal and criminal wrongdoing nearly eight years ago when
    I worked for Waldenbooks’ Day-by-Day Calendar Kiosk at Macomb Mall here
    in Michigan. I’ve decided not to air this on the btpnc-talk list, and
    you can ask me questions, and I can tell you all about it. But I’m
    casually mentioning to you. I’m not going to bring it up on the list,
    because it’s something that happened nearly 8 eight years ago. I know
    how it is, because, when a matter becomes an issue of “he-said,
    she-said,” the law is going to side with the accuser, who, by most
    accounts, happen to be female. I know what it’s like for that to happen.
    Although no official criminal charges were ever filed against me, the
    matter, in some ways, still haunts me to this very day. This entire case
    of yours triggered that response from me because of what happened to me.

    If the membership wants to know, I can talk about it on the group list,
    but I prefer keeping it private on here.

    But this isn’t about me. This is about the chair of a state party who
    has been accused of sexually molesting his own daughter from the ages of
    8 until she was almost 14. And his political future hangs on the balance
    now because of this charge. No matter which way the wind blows, it’s
    going to look bad for him, the Party, and everyone in general. It
    becomes a lose-lose situation, no matter how this whole thing pans out.

    Honestly, Dagny, I don’t know if what you say is true. It might have
    happened. It could have happened. Therefore, I sympathize with you,
    because I had a couple of girlfriends who were sexually molested when
    they were young, and it’s terrible that they’ve been through that. Child
    molestation is a terrible thing and should NEVER, EVER be taken lightly.
    I believe that you believe that it happened, and perhaps something
    happened. Initially, I took John’s side on the matter, but now I’m
    retreating from that and taking no sides at all. I have no way of
    knowing if he did anything wrong. Since he’s denied that he’s done
    anything wrong, there’s nothing else the Party can do about it.

    The problem with your accusation is that you don’t have hard proof at
    all. And, because of that, I can’t take sides with the accuser against
    the accused, based on the fact that there is no corroboration from
    others who can substantiate your allegation, no audio and/or video
    recordings of the event that allegedly took place, no witnesses, etc.

    Let me make my point clear here: if what you say is true, then I
    sympathize what happened to you, and I do mean that. I can’t say that it
    didn’t happen, but then I can’t say that it happened either. However, I
    can’t, in my official capacity as the Vice Chair of the Boston Tea
    Party, urge the National Committee to sacrifice your father John Wayne
    Smith on the altar of unsubstantiated and unprovable allegations simply
    by repudiating what he has done. I simply can’t do that. Put yourself in
    my shoes. What would you do? If you were the officer of a political
    party, would you be willing to throw stones at the accused, knowing that
    there was nothing to back up his accuser’s claims?

    I think not.

    I did what I felt was right at the time, and I make no apologies for
    bringing it to the Party’s attention, and I shouldn’t have to apologize
    for that, except for how I went about it.

    I am preparing to write a resolution for the National Committee, and we
    will deliberate on this matter soon enough.

    I felt you should know.

    I wish you all the luck in the world, and I hope you do receive the help
    and counseling you need to guide your life to a better future for yourself.

    Take care.

    Yours in Liberty,

    Todd Andrew Barnett
    Vice Chair, Boston Tea National Committee

  86. dagnyb

    thanks paulie. so far, so good. but I am only 38, and there is no telling about tomorrow. 🙂

  87. paulie cannoli

    One day at a time.

    As I said earlier, I read Todd’s account of his experience, and I have had several that were worse.

    I don’t use it as a reason to categorize all women or take sides on a disputed claim of fact, when I have no way of knowing.

    Given that I do not know, it certainly would not be becoming for me to point fingers and use harsh language at one side or the other.

    I wish both well, and I hope (and trust) that sooner or later, everyone will get what they deserve based on the choices they have made.

  88. paulie cannoli

    I should mention one of those experiences so people can have a point of reference.

    In my early 20s I had a brief fling with a woman of about the same age who enjoyed some rough stuff and game playing. We were both drinking pretty heavily at the time and on at least one occasion we played a “game” where we changed around the meaning of yes and no. Some of her friends overheard but she reassured them that she was OK.

    Later I caught her stealing from me. She told me that if I tried to do anything about it, she would have me prosecuted for rape. She also told me her friends would back her up and lie, and say that she was not OK that time. She also had some marks on her that came from concensual activity, but would lead credence to her story if she lied.

    I had to let it go and let her get away with stealing, because otherwise there was a real chance I could have gone to prison and done hard time for a crime I never did.

    And that’s just one of several incidents.

    So, I know where Todd comes from on this, but I’m forcing myself not to go there.

  89. FreeMarketeer

    Since Dagny Kira Barnes is refusing to let this matter drop and since I’ve been trying my damndest to let it go, I’m going to make a few comments here. (It’s irritating and becoming ridiculous that Miss Barnes keeps making an isue out of this, when she was the one who contacted me and who neglected to tell me not to post her original Facebook note to me.)

    Yes, I admit that I wrote the apology to her. And yes, I did rescind it. When I wrote that mistaken apology, I was not acting in the right frame of mind at the time. And I do not apologize for rescinding that apology. But that’s water under the bridge, as far as I’m concerned.

    Dagny, you don’t know me. You don’t know me at all. I made a decision that was necessary and was needed to be made. Your father denied the allegation, and that’s it. Case closed. End of story.

    This claptrap of yours saying that I never questioned people is that…claptrap. I did present the allegation to your father on the discussion list. You made an issue out of me making this public, considering you did publicly threaten to tell people about him. I mean, what were you expecting? Did you think that there wouldn’t be any consequences as a result of your actions on your end?

    By the way, since this entire ruckus happened, I have since dropped out of the BTP Vice Chair race, resigned from my Vice Chair seat on the Boston Tea National Committee, and have already started chairing the Bylaws Committee of the Party.

    Oh, did you know that your father has since then dropped out of the VP race in his state, resigned from his state chair seat, dismantled the Florida BTP, disaffiliated from the national BTP, and dropped out of the Party for good? Did you know that?

    As for your theory that I, along with Jim Davidson, “don’t like women,” you’re dead wrong on that. I have a fiancee, she’s 25, and guess what, Dagny? She was raped when she was 3, 5, and 6 by her uncle who ALSO raped his daughter as well? The reason I believe her is that I’ve known and trusted her. Ok, I admit that she doesn’t have evidence, but she’s got her mother and brother to back it up, and I’ve heard it from them too. Did you know that he was originally sentenced to 10 years in prison? He then got a reduced sentence (a five year one), and then he was released on good behavior. Oh, and Dagny, a sexual predator goes after MORE than one victim. That means that your dad must have allegedly gone after someone else in your family if he’s guilty as sin.

    Oh, and did I forget to mention that my fiancee doesn’t believe your story, even though she’s a rape victim herself?

    Even what you say is true and you wanted everyone to know that your daddy is a kiddie rapist, ok, so what do you want the members of the BTP do with that information, even after your father’s no longer associated with the Party? I am aware of the fact that in each state, statute of limitation laws vary, so I’m not sure what Florida’s laws are.

    So, let’s say you’re right, that your father has been lying to himself and to us: what are you going to do about it? What did you want us to do about it? Just ignore his denial and just automatically take your side, just because your word is golden as you say it is? I’m sorry, but that’s not how the world works. You’re a fool if you think that.

    Yes, I did come off as combative to you, Dagny, and for good reason. Crystal Gail Mangum, the accuser of the accused Duke LaCross team players at Duke University, claimed she was raped too, but her story was found to be a crock. She couldn’t even get her story straight. And those boys lives are ruined. Do you think they’re guilty of raping her, although she has no evidence to prove it?

    Re-hashing this on IPR isn’t going to change anything, Dagny. If you want to keep believing that your father committed a crime against you, fine. Believe it all you want. I, for one, see things differently.

    As the old saying goes, “I’d rather have 10 guilty men go free than convict 1 innocent person.” Or something like that.

    Yours,

    Todd Andrew Barnett

  90. songster7

    Why in GOD’s NAME are you insisting on displaying this private information in detail, about your own fiancee’s sordid family (or other?) childhood sexual-history (aka clearly rape, in this case) on a public-forum discussion-list — not only prolonging, but extending this utterly meaningless discourse?

    The closer I get to this BTP thing, the less I like; this was NOT what Tom had in mind when he started this effort …

  91. FreeMarketeer

    Why in GOD’s NAME are you insisting on displaying this private information in detail, about your own fiancee’s sordid family (or other?) childhood sexual-history (aka clearly rape, in this case) on a public-forum discussion-list — not only prolonging, but extending this utterly meaningless discourse?

    I’m not the one who brought up my private email to and public message about Dagny on the comment section of IPR. I’m not the one who made an issue out of her father allegedly molesting Miss Barnes. I’m not the one who keeps harping on this issue, just as I’ve been trying to put this matter out of my mind AFTER the fact. And I’m also not the one who went on a political and psychological crusade against her father, especially when the allegation against John Wayne Smith came up.

    Oh, and I’m also not the one who alleges that BTP Chairman Jim Davidson and I “either, don’t like women, don’t want anyone to question the people who are associated with [our] organization, or god forbid don’t like people who are willing to tell [us] the truth and not back away from the truth.” I’m not the one who sandbagged myself and Jim by making us out to be sexists. I did confront John on the matter when I posted her email message on the Florida BTP group on Yahoo Groups (which no longer exists, btw). He denied it and stood by it, even up until and after he resigned from his state party. If an officer of my party denies any criminal wrongdoing on his part and stands by it, I’m not going to beat him on the head with a club and call him a liar, just to assuage Miss Barnes and to make her feel happy.

    The reason I brought up my girlfriend’s childhood history was because I was making a point. And that point was that I don’t dislike women, and I don’t take the issue of molestation lightly. I don’t. And by mentioning her childhood history that includes criminal sexual conduct by her uncle, I’m pointing out that I’m engaged to a beautiful woman who has sufferred from this mess. I’m establishing the fact that I speak out against violence against women, considering I’ve written for Ifeminist.net.

    And, oh yes, I’ve spoken out against violence against women. Are you going to challenge me on that one?

    The closer I get to this BTP thing, the less I like; this was NOT what Tom had in mind when he started this effort …

    Political parties are going to attract controversies of all kinds, and that goes for fairly new parties like the BTP. It comes with the terroritory.

    It comes down to this: my defense of my actions is either going to be met with praise or is going to met with derision. I’ve come to the conclusion a long time ago that you can’t please everyone, and there’s no point in even trying. You can only please yourself. That’s the bottom line.

    And that’s the way the cookie crumbles, sad to say.

    Yours in Liberty,

    Todd Andrew Barnett
    Proud Member of the BTP

  92. heyheyliberty

    Wow, I read the above story with great interest.

    That is TERRIBLE how Jim Davidson molested his daughter!

  93. JimDavidson

    It is good to see Hogarth sneer at D&D and SCA people. Many of my age peers who played at those games went on to found major video game companies (see also John Carmack) and invent Massively Multiplayer Online Games and avatar networking sites like Second Life. Yup, it is such an embarrassment to be involved in fun things to do which so many billions of dollars have come from. Gosh.

  94. JimDavidson

    No, Ms. Barnes, I don’t have any blanket like nor any blanket dislike for all women. I don’t like you, particularly, and I don’t like Hogarth, generally. There are some things Hogarth has done that I like very much, but I generally don’t like the way her photo illustrates the dictionary entry under harridan.

    There are a large number of women I admire, including historical ones such as Emma Goldman and contemporary ones such as Angela Keaton. I have written extensively on women’s issues, gender issues, sexism, and other forms of bigotry. It would take very little effort on your part to find numerous essays by me. I’ve written a great deal, and been paid considerable sums for the work. You might be able to find some things I’ve written about particular women, or women generally.

    I am committed to openness. I believe that secrecy has killed the LP. I believe that secrecy has totally subverted the GOP and the Democratic party. I am involved here in part of an experiment. This part is the public face part. The experiment is The Boston Tea Party founded in 2006, still working out some of its processes.

    I do want people to question the folks with whom I am associated. I do it myself, quite a bit.

    Given that my response to learning of the message you sent to Todd was to say that we could not hide this information, we could not be perceived to be hiding it, we could not wait until after the election to deliberate about it, and that Todd should immediately post it to the FloridaBTP and BTPnc-talk lists, I really don’t see where you can conceivably characterise my position as seeking to prevent anyone in the party from being questioned.

    Within a few hours, your father had responded, denying the allegation, identifying you as his daughter, and indicating that he felt you had done this accusation thing previously. I should note that because Todd did what I told him to do, John found out what you were saying.

    Strangely, Tom took your phone call and Darcy and Charles discussed the issue with Tom, and John knew nothing from them until much later. Yet, I am supposedly, according to you, the one who has difficulty with people around me being questioned. In case you weren’t aware, I regarded at the time the accusations came forward that John was the most valuable state party chair we had and an incredible organiser for us in his state.

    I have continued to stand for openness in this matter, including several of the particular offshoot controversies, such as whether I was demanding to see all of Charles Jay’s personal correspondence. The reason so much of my correspondence and his on this matter is now on the BTP’s Yahoogroups is because I insisted on it.

    So don’t come to me about truth telling. I’ve given you ample opportunity to tell your version of events. I have given you ample opportunity to bring forward other witnesses, other victims of other abuses by John (rape, assault, survivors of murder victims, fraud, theft, vandalism – do you have any other criminal charges?), or any other evidence of any sort. The only thing I’ve been able to corroborate is that there was a case where John was accused in court of bigamy. I don’t see a conviction, and I’m not clear how it is any concern of the state or anyone else that three women were married to one man.

    We’ve repeatedly asked you what you expect us to do. Do you want us to put your father in prison? Would that satisfy your sense of justice? Maybe we could remove his testicles and give them to you? Would you like us to tattoo “rapist” on his forehead? Or do you understand that we cannot engage in initiatory force against John without compelling evidence that he has committed an act which would make it retaliatory force, instead?

    I don’t know that you are telling the truth. I don’t think anyone else can know. John is the only other person in the world who could corroborate what you say happened, and he denies it. I understand that you believe you are telling the truth, and I have at no time stopped you from telling your truths. I have the power to prevent you from posting to the BTP’s Yahoo groups, but I have not done so, because I want you to be able to post your words there. I have no power over this site, but even if I did, I would not seek to prevent you from posting here.

    It would be great if you told us what you want. I understand that you have a great need for attention. I wonder if it can be filled. Anyway, here we are, paying attention to you.

    How may we be of further service?

    You have seen my suggestions on the BTP Yahoo group pages. I have suggested that the only way you can expect to get beyond what happened is sit down with your mother and with your father, perhaps with a counselor or lawyer or priest or judge, and talk about what happened. How you felt about it. Why you chose to run away from home. Why your mother didn’t help you when you had difficulties with your father. Why your father did what you say he did. Why your parents divorced. These all seem like issues that you haven’t gotten past. And, as long as you don’t get past them, you’ll be bringing them up in different ways, in different places.

    Take for a moment the position that everything you have said is true. It is horrifying. You survived terrible events as a child. You should never have been treated that way. Your father doing the things you describe is a terrible betrayal. You should have been loved and respected and left in your own space and not abused, not molested. There is also a betrayal that your mother didn’t perceive these events and do anything to help, though that is a much lesser thing. It probably affects you, though, because it is another loving relationship that didn’t prevent something terrible happening. Wouldn’t it help you get past these issues if your father admitted what he did and apologised? Wouldn’t it help you if your mother believed you and regretted it and asked to help you? Wouldn’t it be better if you could get reconciliation, understanding, or at least admission, from some of the people in your family?

    But, look, those people aren’t here. Your mother isn’t here. Your father isn’t here. So talking to us is not useful. It doesn’t fix what happened. It has not caused anyone else to come forward to present other evidence of what happened to you, or what happened to them at the hands of the same person. We aren’t a court of law, we cannot convict your father, we have no power to punish him, and because we cannot prove what you say is true, we cannot do anything more to him than has already happened.

    So why not talk to your mom instead? I don’t get it. She might have some insights. I sure don’t.

    The events which have transpired since you first sent your message to Todd include: your father has resigned from the Florida BTP, your father has stopped campaigning, your father has left the BTP; the Florida BTP has disaffiliated from national; the vice chair, Todd, has resigned from his office and dropped out of his race; the chair of the BTP and its presidential candidate are no longer speaking to each other. None of these things that have happened are your fault. But they are consequences that follow from actions taken as a result of your actions to contact Todd and Tom. Some of these things are consequences of actions that I took.

    It is all my fault. Really. It is my personal responsibility as the chair of the Boston Tea Party to guide the other officers when they seek guidance, to respond to inquiries from the presidential candidate, to respond to others in the party, to handle extremely bizarre criticisms from one of our endorsed candidates, to respond to discussions on our party lists, to respond in discussions on other sites as I see fit, and to lead the party. In my work in this area, I have chosen to stand on the principles of the party: openness, not secrecy; limited scope to the national party, not omnipotence, and no budget authority; control of the party’s direction by its members, not by its presidential candidate. Where we are as a result of how we responded to your message to Todd and your phone call to Tom is my responsibility. And I can live with the results.

    We are not super human. We had no crystal ball to foretell the future. We had no knowledge of your allegations because you have not bothered to follow your father’s activities. Even though we issued press releases, in Florida, about his candidacy, you didn’t contact us because you didn’t see them. We didn’t know about the bigamy thing when we agreed that, because our national candidate didn’t have the ability to get papers notarised, that your father could run in Florida, and in Florida only. We didn’t know about your allegations of child molestation. So, we did our best with the people who came forward to work with us. And when you contacted us, we did our best to respond.

    Mistakes were made. People were unpleasant with you and with each other, and were also direct with you, blunt to the point of making it clear that mere allegation wasn’t enough to convince us. And I am okay with all of it. People make mistakes because they are human, and humans are imperfect. I live with my mistakes every day. People are emotional, and that’s a part of life, and those who want everyone to be a robot or a Vulcan are just silly. So if you don’t like being insulted or mistrusted or betrayed, go live as a hermit somewhere. Or be with God. If you want to be here on Earth, you get to deal with people as they are. And many people suck at being decent to each other. I should know.

    If the cost of openness and control of the party by its members is that the presidential candidate of the party wants my resignation, I don’t mind. I won’t resign, but I can pay the price of causing him to want my resignation. That was easy.

    If the cost of openness and control of the party by its members is the loss of the Florida chapter, that’s a hard burden to bear. But we’ve paid it. And I don’t know how to avoid that cost. And I think openness and control of the party by its members are values, are principles, that are more important than whether we have a state affiliate in Florida for the next few weeks. We can, after all, find other people to form one there.

    But, Ms. Barnes, I don’t know how to help you. Does it help that you’ve caused all this stuff to get going by throwing your poison pen letter through the transom? Does it help that you’ve placed your father in an untenable position, which he has now left? Does it satisfy your sense of vengefulness and vindictiveness to see him leave our party (voluntarily, and not in disgrace, but he’s left)? Does it satisfy your sense of justice that many more people know about your father now? And many more people know about you?

    Have you got all the attention you want? Is there anything missing that we could provide?

    We cannot undo the betrayal, the feelings, the hurt, the years of being unhappy. We cannot provide the love and the decency and the safe environment that you deserved as a child. None of us know you very well. We’re just these weird people with this other political party.

    I would very much like to help you, if there is anything that I can do. But, other than to say what I have said, and think what I have thought, what is it that I may do for you? I would sincerely like you to stop bringing this issue up with me, as I have done and said what I can about it.

    I would also sincerely like to see you find some fulfillment, satisfaction, or completion in this matter. But, given what you have said, what has happened, what has been said to you, I don’t know how to obtain that result for you.

    I do think that I can eliminate some people who cannot help you feel better or live a better, safer, happier life. Todd. Ms. Hogarth. Paulie. Me. Tom. Charles. Darcy. GE. Ross. George Dance. George Phillies, just to throw in a random name.

    I suspect that what happiness, security, and well being you can obtain must come from you, primarily, and to an extent from your family. If you want to get past the things in your past that happened, then directly confronting the man involved while he yet lives might be useful – I have seen it done and I have heard about it being done, so I think there is evidence it could be useful.

    But this business of commenting on what has happened, who did what in response to what they read, and how that made them feel – how does it help you?

    We cannot help it because it is important to us to discuss how we handle situations in the future that bear some resemblance to this one. We don’t know how to gain national political power, nor influence, so we have to squeeze every event for any lessons we might learn to advance in our understanding. It is endemic in the type of people we are that we have discussions about what has happened.

    But I don’t know why you want to involve yourself. It seems like opening an old wound and it seems likely to inflict new ones. It must make you feel somewhat like a victim, all over again. And I don’t know what to do about that.

    I am very sorry for your loss of innocence as a child. I am very sorry for your suffering. I very much regret that you have had a hard life.

  95. Jeremy Young

    Dagny, if you’re still reading — fuck these people. You got what you needed to have happen, which was your abusive father removed from a position of power in their nascent political party. Beyond that, don’t put up with their bullshit any more. Who needs a bunch of random dudes reliving their complexes through your trauma? You know this better than I, of course, but still — I’m disgusted by what I’ve read on this thread tonight, and I’m very sorry that you’ve had to relive all this again through these insensitive clods. Here’s hoping the next political party officials you run into are a bit more caring.

  96. hogarth

    Todd, you’re pathetic and despicable. I’ve pulled punches before to save your feelings because I know you’re a delicate person, but now that you insist on behaving like a true ass, to hell with that.

    Yes, I did come off as combative to you, Dagny, and for good reason. Crystal Gail Mangum, the accuser of the accused Duke LaCross team players at Duke University, claimed she was raped too, but her story was found to be a crock.

    Your ‘good reason’ for being ‘combative’ to someone you don’t know is that some other woman has lied about a completely unrelated incident?

    Excuse me, but wtf?

    I still pity you, but less and less as I see evidence of your unwillingness to *think*. No matter how many emotional issues you have dealing (or not dealing) with women, you should still be able to apply basic logic.

    Let me help you out: Dagny is not Crystal.

    This is not rocket science, especially for someone who rails about ‘collectivism’.

    I am highly skeptical that anyone actually consented to marry you, but I suppose it’s possible. I hope she changes her mind when she realizes that her boyfriend discusses her rape history in public – in the service of ‘proving’ that another woman that neither of you know is lying. Maybe she’s the same kind of drama queen as you and thinks that sort of ‘sharing’ with strangers is cool. If so, I pity her.

    In fact, I pity her anyway – assuming she exists in more than your mind. After all, she’s engaged to you.

    And while I’m on the subject of idiots:

    It is good to see Hogarth sneer at D&D and SCA people. Many of my age peers who played at those games went on to found major video game companies (see also John Carmack) and invent Massively Multiplayer Online Games and avatar networking sites like Second Life.

    Keyword here is ‘went on to…’. They actually grew up and stopped acting like emotionally retarded 14-year olds.

    Yup, it is such an embarrassment to be involved in fun things to do which so many billions of dollars have come from. Gosh.

    Millions of dollars have ‘come from’ pornography, too. That doesn’t mean that every guy who thumbs through Penthouse is Larry Flint.

    Gosh.

  97. Thomas L. Knapp

    Sometimes a younger political party can learn a thing or two from an older one, and after thinking the situation over, I think I’ve found the solution.

    Why don’t we follow the example of the LP and just agree that this is all Angela Keaton’s fault, and that she’s the reason we can’t have nice things?

    Yeah, that’ll work!

  98. Richard Shepard

    Yes, of course…roughly two dozen people care enough to post 130 comments. Just think how many GOTV pamphlets could have been written. Or perhaps Mr. Knapp is right, we all need to blame somebody for something.

  99. FreeMarketeer

    Todd, you’re pathetic and despicable. I’ve pulled punches before to save your feelings because I know you’re a delicate person, but now that you insist on behaving like a true ass, to hell with that.

    You know, Susan, I’m not going to get into a childish pissing contest with you. I have no idea why you’re involving yourself in this, because this has nothing to do with you. But, whatever!

    You can look at me, spit at me, and make me out to be Satan Incarnate for all I care. You can make me out to be the villain in all of this, and, even if I do object, protest, or even dispute it, but it’s not going to work.

    You’ve got a lot of goddamn nerve to tell me. FYI, I do *think*, just not the way you would like me to. This has nothing to do with my girlfriend and me. I’m not going to justify myself to you, and I don’t fucking answer to you.

    I never claimed to be rational. I never claimed to be sane. I never claimed to be a saint. And I never claimed to be an angel with a halo over my head. But then again, why don’t you try looking in the mirror for once? You’re not fucking angel yourself, sister.

    You’re a nasty, venal, and vile ass. Oh, and let’s not forget vain too! I’m not going to get into a debate match with you, because you are NOT fucking worth it. You can take your LPRadicals group and your “I’m-gonna-bitch-at-Todd-because-I-can’t-stand-him-and-it’s-fun” crap and shove it up your ass!!!!

    I despise you. You’re a fucking asshole, and I want nothing to do with you. So go ahead, bitch! Make me out to the fucking, evil person. In fact, I’ll enjoy playing that role if it makes you feel better. Besides, being a fucking evil person is more fun than being the nice, laid-back person who gets trampled on and walked over.

    I’ve had it with you. Just take your statist, collectivistic ass and shove it for once!!

    If you fell off a fucking cliff, I wouldn’t fucking care.

    Todd

  100. dagnyb

    Wow, Todd I must say that I am extremely impressed with your ability to communicate as well as your grasp of the English language.

    Rock on.

  101. dagnyb

    i figured as much, but for those out there not ‘listening’ i figured i would make sure that they heard.

  102. jollygreengiant

    Wow, Todd I must say that I am extremely impressed with your ability to communicate as well as your grasp of the English language.

    wow, todd, i must say that i am extremely impressed with your ability to communicate as well as your grasp of the english language. (sarcasm included — hint, hint…)

    i think dagnyb is cracking up here poor todd how mean they are to you

    Rock on.

    is that supposed to be a sign of sexual harassment on your part, dagnyb

    it sounds gross. ewwwww.

    hey paulie, did you ‘hear’ the sarcasm? hopefully others did as well.

    i had no idea you can hear text of a comment on a webpage

    wow, do you, like, have superhearing too
    can you fly at super speed at superman
    and if you do, do you get a secret decoder ring too?

    -jgg

  103. dagnyb

    interesting way of decipherment on your part jolly. you are wrong on most of the points that you made, but they are interesting just the same.

    you must be a friend of Todd’s. good for you.

  104. heyheyliberty

    Wow, Jim Davidson molested his daughter, then denies that she exists? That’s even more terrible.

  105. dagnyb

    Hey Liberty,

    not that I am a fan of Jim Davidson’s, but the statement that you have made is, as far as i know, completely false. Maybe you should go farther up this message board and reread the part where you thought you read that.

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