Charles Jay slams BTP Chairman Jim Davidson; Florida BTP disaffiliates from national

“I didn’t involve myself in all of this to play in a sandbox with children,” says Charles Jay, in reference to internal disputes within the Boston Tea Party.

“This stuff is getting more ridiculous with each passing day,” Jay continues. “Apparently [National Chairman Jim] Davidson feels he has the right to monitor private conversations that take place between BTP Florida members, including those that exclusively concern my campaign, and has accused those who wish to speak freely with others as being ‘conspirators’ in a ‘secretive cabal.’ That’s quite a vivid, and I daresay, childish imagination at work. I speak to whomever, whenever and about whatever I want and I do not surrender that First Amendment right to anyone, least of all the Jim Davidsons of the world. If he doesn’t like it, and considering that I live in Florida, he can kiss me where the sun don’t shine.”

According to a Florida BTP press release, the controversy reached a boiling point on Saturday when Davidson reportedly asked the BTP’s national membership to consider rescinding the party’s endorsement of Libertarian Susan Hogarth, who had been endorsed by the party months earlier. Hogarth, an LP Radical leader, had criticized the handling of BTP matters and had specifically called into question a statement made by then-Vice Chairman Todd Andrew Barnett. The BTP of Florida says Davidson wanted to rescind the party’s endorsement because Hogarth “had the temerity” to question Barnett’s “ill-tempered reply” to an individual who had privately contacted Barnett regarding a “highly sensitive and personal matter.”

In an emergency session of the party’s state executive committee held earlier today, the Boston Tea Party of Florida, in a 4-0 unanimous vote, formally disaffiliated from the national Boston Tea Party.

59 thoughts on “Charles Jay slams BTP Chairman Jim Davidson; Florida BTP disaffiliates from national

  1. Ross Levin

    The funny thing is, the only person that cares might be Jim Davidson.

    You’re a party of about 500 people. Don’t take yourselves so seriously, it won’t help.

  2. ModernWhig

    I like it better than Modern Whig myself, we should have a cagematch to see who gets the name

  3. G.E. Post author

    No offense, but the Boston Tea Party was a revolt against taxation and remote government, two things Mr. Levin and the Modern Whig Party support.

  4. G.E. Post author

    Why would you name a party after an event that goes against your philosophy?

    It makes no sense.

    Why not call yourselves the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre Party?

  5. ModernWhig

    Boston Tea Party was an act by american patriots rebelling at the unjust authority of the King of England. It symbolized the refusal to be taxed without representation in the legislature. Not many libertarian philosophies in there.

  6. G.E. Post author

    King George’s authority over the colonists is no more unjust than that which the MWP would impose on me.

  7. Trent Hill

    “Not many libertarian philosophies in there.”

    Have you ever read the writings of the various “american patriots” involved in the rebellion against England? VERY Libertarian. Actually,more classically-liberal,but still.

  8. G.E. Post author

    No, Trent.. You must not have gotten the memo: The Boston Tea Party was all about having the “freedom” to build up a huge military-industrial complex and police the world. Sam Adams, etc., with FDR-like war liberals, not “classical” ones (whatever that means).

  9. MattSwartz

    Could this be less important?

    Anyone can get on the ballot in Florida, so the BTP ballot line isn’t a big deal.

    The only thing the BTP does nationally is elect a presidential candidate, everything else is state-level.

    Nobody cares about the BTP unless the LP candidate sucks.

    Maybe the PCP will get bigger for a while until they start fighting, too.

    meh.

  10. Jeremy Young

    G.E., I think the point is that the Boston Tea Party can be viewed as a rebellion against authority, which it was at a basic level. You’re right to point out that those who committed it were classical liberals (though keep in mind that BTP organizer Sam Adams was the governor of Massachussetts who brutally suppressed Shays’ Rebellion), but that doesn’t mean that the name can’t be used legitimately for a variety of other rebellions against authority, even if they don’t match ideologically with what the founders believed.

  11. MattSwartz

    Personal Choice Party.

    They’re more radical libertarians from Utah. I guess there was an acrimonious party split out there, too.

    Libertarians are the same all over…

  12. paulie cannoli

    It symbolized the refusal to be taxed without representation in the legislature.

    Something I recently learned: it was actually a rebellion against corporate welfare. The British East Indies Company was exempt from a tea tax that everyone else had to pay.

  13. paulie cannoli

    PCP?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCP

    PCP may refer to:

    In medicine and pharmaceutics:

    Primary care physician, a doctor who acts as first point of consultation for patients
    Primary care paramedic
    Phencyclidine, a recreational drug known by a number of street names including angel dust, supergrass, killer weed, sherm, embalming fluid, and rocket fuel
    Pneumocystis pneumonia (PCP), (formerly known as Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia)
    Post-coital pill, a form of emergency contraception
    In politics:

    Partido Comunista Paraguayo, Paraguayan Communist Party
    Partido Comunista del Peru, also known as Shining Path
    Partido Comunista Puertorriqueño, Puerto Rican Communist Party
    Partido Comunista Peruano, Peruvian Communist Party
    Partido Comunista Português, Portuguese Communist Party
    Partit Català Proletari, Proletarian Catalan Party
    In science:

    Pentachlorophenol, timber preservative
    Post correspondence problem, an important problem in computability theory
    Priority ceiling protocol, a computer science concept
    Probabilistically checkable proof, a notion in the theory of computational complexity
    Put-call parity, in financial mathematics a relationship between the price of a call option and a put option
    In technology:

    Pre-Charged Pneumatic, a type of air gun
    Primary Control Program, an earliest version of IBM OS/360 operating system
    Miscellaneous:

    Faster/P.C.P., a single by Manic Street Preachers, from their 1994 album The Holy Bible
    Purple City Productions, a Harlem-based rap group

  14. Ross Levin

    The Boston Tea Party was a revolt against virtual representation and taxation from the British parliament. The policies that were revolted against were pretty much all put in place by the people in the revolt. We can go on endlessly like this, but the point I was trying to make is that politics is stupid and it gets exponentially stupider with decreasing scale. And the BTP is about as small as it gets.

  15. sunshinebatman

    Is this satire? I get confused.

    “I didn’t involve myself in all of this to play in a sandbox with children,” says Charles Jay, in reference to internal disputes within the Boston Tea Party.

  16. Austin Cassidy

    The biggest problem in trying to form a new party from the grassroots up is that you immediately attract all of these types of crazy and difficult people as your base.

    Reading this gave me a headache.

  17. Thomas L. Knapp

    Quoth Mike Theodore:

    “I would definitely like to hear more about the accusation of Davidson monitoring conversations between members.”

    When I received a call from Ms. Barnes regarding her allegations against her father, she mentioned that she had also emailed Todd Andrew Barnett, the BTP’s vice chair. For some reason that didn’t sink in, and since she said she wasn’t seeking publicity, I treated the matter as a conversation between Ms. Barnes myself as the party’s national VP candidate, not as “official party business” which would need to be openly addressed by the national committee.

    I discussed the matter with Charles Jay and Darcy Richardson, both of whom are leaders in the Florida BTP, and only brought Mr. Davidson into the conversation after Mr. Barnett issued a public statement on the matter.

    From those actions, two claims arise: Mr. Davidson’s allegation that myself, Mr. Jay and Mr. Richardson constitute some kind of “secret cabal” trying to run the party, and Mr. Jay’s allegation that Mr. Davidson “eels he has the right to monitor private conversations that take place between BTP Florida members.”

    Neither of those claims, in my opinion, has merit.

    In this whole affair, I wish that I had done several things differently — for example, I wish that I hadn’t been quite so hard on Mr. Barnett. I also wish that several other people had acted more wisely as well. I wish that the Florida BTP had not chosen to disaffiliate. I wish that Mr. Davidson had not chosen to throw a public temper tantrum with Ms. Hogarth as its focus.

    The BTP hashes its conflicts out more publicly than other parties, and it does so by design. I always hate to watch that happen, but I remain convinced that it’s better than the “smoke-filled room” approach.

    I also believe that the party will still be a going concern long after everyone involved in this discussion is dead.

  18. TheOriginalAndy

    “paulie cannoli // Oct 19, 2008 at 10:36 pm

    Do you petition for the Utahns, Paulie?

    Yep.

    LP, PCP and GP in Feb 08. Only the LP made it. The GP stiffed me on half. PCP almost made it.
    24 paulie cannoli // Oct 19, 2008 at 10:37 pm

    One less snowstorm, we probably could have made it.”

    This is what happens when parties put petition drives off until the last minute.

    The LP did make it in Utah, but they made it at the last minute. There was no reason for them to have just barely made it at the last minute since they had plenty of time to do the petition drive.

    The Personal Choice Party and the Green Party would have made it if they had brought in a pro petitioner earlier.

    For those of you who are sick & tired of last minute clusterfuck ballot access petition drives (which is the #1 reason for ballot access failure), I am working with some other people to start Libertarian Party ballot access for 2010 and 2012 right now. You see, in some states such as Alabama, Arkansas, West Virginia, and some others, ballot access petitioning can start way before the election. If we start early and do the jobs right there is no reason that the Libertarian Party should not be on the ballot in all 50 states plus DC.

  19. songster7

    Andy – How are you planing to fund this effort? Begging the LP/LNC for money, or raising it (yourself and with others) from WILLING contributors and sponsors, who think ballot access is somehow the most vital thing the LP et alia might be doing now?

    If the former, good luck; I think that ship has sailed …

    If the latter, congratulations on rebirthing the pilot project that was intended to be the salvation of the Libertarian Party (and a road forward and away from the “membership club” model that has doomed it for decades). If you get it off the ground you might even see a donation from me (and from a LOT of other former supporters of the LP) — even though I don’t happen to think that purpose is nearly as vital to the cause as some seem to.

  20. songster7

    Tom … and CJ … and even Jim?

    I don’t know what the alley fight is about, but it seems like it oughta be resolvable among libertarians without the veiled threats and name calling?

  21. paulie cannoli

    Andy – How are you planing to fund this effort? Begging the LP/LNC for money, or raising it (yourself and with others) from WILLING contributors and sponsors, who think ballot access is somehow the most vital thing the LP et alia might be doing now?

    The second one. If you want to help with it now, you can donate to either Freedom Ballot Access

    http://freedomballotaccess.org/

    or LP of Alabama

    http://al.lp.org/pages/contribute

    More states to come, we hope…

  22. johncjackson

    It’s hard to follow a story when the explanation assumes we readers know who these people are and what the issues are. I mean, I know who Jay, Knapp, Barnett, Davidson are.

    As far as who in the heck Ms. Barnes, her father, why they would be discussing allegations with a political party, etc- no frigging clue.

  23. TheOriginalAndy

    songster7 // Oct 20, 2008 at 1:28 am

    “Andy – How are you planing to fund this effort? Begging the LP/LNC for money, or raising it (yourself and with others) from WILLING contributors and sponsors, who think ballot access is somehow the most vital thing the LP et alia might be doing now?”

    We are working on raising money on our own.

    By the way, note that LNC money comes from donations as well.

  24. Catholic Trotskyist

    Ah, so disappointing. I had high hopes for the Boston Tea Party, as the most influential new party in this election along with the Modern Whig Party and the Catholic Trotskyist Party of America, and the Objectivist Party.

    Will the Florida BTP members still vote for Jay? Could Jay end up with 0 votes in Florida? Will the Florida BTP move to the Objectivist Party, which I believe is only in the ballot in Florida?

    Rest assured, in the Catholic Trotskyist Party of America, there are no internal disputes, because there is still only one member.

  25. JimDavidson

    In the thread on the bostontea.us site requesting membership input to the merits of endorsing Ms. Hogarth, she writes that some of her comments were intemperate. She also writes that how things are said is important. In my opinion, these realisations break new ground, at least in my perception of her understanding of them. I have asked on that thread that Tom close the poll. I believe it has served its purpose, which was to make the point that how endorsed candidates say things makes a difference.

    That poll has also demonstrated very clearly that the vast majority of those who voted in the poll (which may be all the people who care about the issue) support the endorsement of Ms. Hogarth. So, good. Therefore, in spite of having three members of the national committee in favor of rescinding the endorsement, it is well that I found out what the members want. I have no plans to place any motion before the national committee to reconsider. I consider the matter closed.

    Mr. Jay’s action to disaffiliate the Florida BTP was evidently not taken with consultation with its chair, John Wayne Smith. Then again, after John read all the things Darcy and Charles had to say about him, resigned in disgust and deleted (!) the Florida BTP yahoogroup. (I very much wish he had not, since that archive is valuable for future deliberations, and since someone now has to go make a new one.)

    In the press release above, as I explain in my responses visible on btpnc-talk and btpnc Yahoogroups, Mr. Jay lies. I did not ever demand insight into anyone’s private e-mail inbox.

    Instead, Tom sent me a long thread amongst himself, Darcy, and Charles discussing what to do about the Dagny Barnes allegation. Among the many problems as I saw it was the apparent question of whether to bring this matter to the attention of the national party’s officers.

    Tom and I have come to agree, though he did not initially, that this allegation had to be made public. I went to considerable effort to make sure it was made public very promptly. When Todd told me about it, I asked John Wayne Smith to confirm or deny the allegation. He denied it. I also asked Todd to post it to the FloridaBTP and btpnc-talk lists.

    We don’t hide this kind of thing from the public. If someone accuses one of our candidates of a crime, we aren’t going to brush it off, nor are we going to sweep it under the rug. We’re going to investigate, to the extent we can, and we’re going to go public with it. If not, then we aren’t any different from any of the other parties.

    I am very impressed and extremely pleased by the comments Tom makes here on this thread about not wanting smoke filled rooms. Since the question was raised, though, I felt that I had to place the thread of discussion on the btpnc-talk list (and the late lamented FloridaBTP list, too), along with two of my responses.

    Why? Because Charles Jay is lying. I didn’t demand insight into all his private conversations. I explicitly said that the campaign can run its affairs any which way.

    As well, because I think Charles wanted to have an insider clique run the BTP. He makes it clear by his comment that it is a ridiculous charge that he was thinking about it. “Methinks the lady doth protest too much,” was my initial reaction.

    He sent Chris Bennett with a phone call to ask me to resign. Of course, I won’t. I’m not going to (and have never been willing to) seek election to the office of chair. And my term expires in a week, so resigning would be silly.

    But, I think the fact that Charles wasn’t willing to e-mail or phone me with his demand speaks volumes to his personal cowardice in this matter. And I think it says a lot about his character to review the things he wrote about John.

    Had Mr. Jay not issued the press release that appears at the top of this page, I would not have released his words. But, he lied about what I said, and he made an issue of his plans for how to handle the controversy. In his conversation with Darcy Richardson and Tom Knapp, Charles Jay makes it clear that he thinks his presidential campaign is more important than the truth about John Wayne Smith, or a process that would allow John to know what had been alleged.

    Processes are important, because how we do things very much affects what results we can obtain. Anyone who is very satisfied with how the major political parties run things should join one of them, because that’s how we got into the national mess we’re in as Americans.

    Anyone who wants to change how politics happens should join the Boston Tea Party. We get things done, and we’re not afraid to stand up for our friends, our party, and our principles.

    I didn’t ask for this controversy. The message from Dagny Barnes flew in threw the transom window, as it were. As soon as I learned about it, I knew that we had to promptly go public with it. Otherwise, it would look like we were hiding something.

    Charles did not want to have Todd handle it that way. I think Charles wanted to have the campaign handle it.

    Then again, Charles doesn’t have much use for Todd since, as Charles ranted in one phone call, Todd wasn’t working hard enough (in his spare time, as a student) to find 27 electors so Charles could be a write-in registrant in Michigan. As if that was going to make it possible for him to win the White House in November.

    In his farewell message, which you cannot see on groups.yahoo.com/group/FloridaBTP because he deleted it, John Wayne Smith says a number of things that ought to be seen by more people. Here they are:

    Begin John Wayne Smith
    – – – –
    In my haste to get even with Bob Barr, it seems that I have stumbled into a den of fools.

    Folks I quit, I never liked the idea of being a running mate with Charles Jay and never liked him from the start. He is not half the man Bob Barr is and that is not very much. Charles Jay is a fool and should not receive any more support from the Boston Tea Party.

    I did put many hours into campaigning for us. I sent out over 15,000 Emails and made a number of telephone calls just so we could bleed votes from Barr. I was a fool and admit it.

    I joined the BTP because Tom Knapp ask me to. I am resigning as chair of the Florida affiliate to the BTP as of the time you read this e mail.

    November 5th I will change my registration and inform the state that I am no longer affiliated with the BTP.

    I am shutting down this list. The ballots have been printed and cannot be undone.

    So, Charles Jay, you do not have any real experience or knowledge to be President of the US. Your ego is more than your substance. Of all the mistakes I have made in my life teaming up with you is just about the worst.
    ——–

    And that seems like a good place to stop for now.

    I fully concur with Tom Knapp that the Boston Tea Party is going to do well. This controversy only stiffens my resolve to make a difference with it.

  26. JimDavidson

    JohnCJackson, the answers you seek are on groups.yahoo.com/group/btpnc-talk and date back to 15 October 2008. Thanks for your interest. Let me know if you have other questions.

  27. Catholic Trotskyist

    Ah, I see, so the Florida faction is actually Charles Jay’s faction. So the Florida BTP will still vote for Jay. What about the BTP in the other states? Do you have a candidate now? That’s really all that matters. Of course Charles Jay should think his presidential campaign is more important than the truth about John Wayne Smith. During these tough economic times, since Americans won’t care about Charles Keating, or Bill Ayers for that matter, why should they care about John Wayne smith, whoever that is? As long as he’s alive and free, it doesn’t matter what happened with him.

    It all sounds like a misunderstanding where neither side is all right or wrong.
    Please pray for the pope and please pray for Barack Obama, amen.

  28. Thomas L. Knapp

    johncjackson:

    The short version of what started this particular chain events is that Dagny Kira Barnes, the daughter of John Wayne Smith (the BTP’s balloted vice-presidential candidate in Florida) accuses her father of having molested her as a child. He denies the allegation.

    Ms. Barnes contacted two people with this allegation: First, Mr. Barnett (the party’s vice-chair); secondly, myself.

    In her email contact with Mr. Barnett, she was hot-tempered and planned to (quote from memory) “tell everyone I know what kind of person you run for vice-president.”

    In her phone contact with me, she had apparently cooled down (her first knowledge that her father was on the ballot was when she received a sample ballot in the mail), and stated that she wasn’t going to attempt to publicize the matter, but thought that the BTP should know about it.

    Mr. Barnett and I handled the allegations very differently. He is a party officer with certain obligations. I’m not. So I do agree that he had to bring the matter to the party’s notice, while I didn’t. I felt that he was rude and hurtful in the manner of his response to her, but after talking with him I believe that there was no intent to be so, and consider it water under the bridge.

    Naturally, the presidential campaign had no interest in this being a matter of public discussion two weeks before the election, especially given the lack of evidence on which to base a conclusion.

    But, that’s the way it goes. The BTP values transparency per se more than it values transient image effects, and I think that’s a good thing.

    Apparently, it’s going to keep getting weirder yet. I’ll try to keep people posted.

    The BTP’s ticket is still on the ballot in Florida, Tennessee and Colorado. It is still a write-in option in various places. It’s still a vote for liberty in places where no other such vote is available.

  29. inDglass

    The only thing the BTP does nationally is elect a presidential candidate, everything else is state-level.

    Our national committee endorses candidates in areas not under the authority of a state affiliate. The committee may also issue resolutions expressing the party’s position on issues, such as the recent BTPNC Resolution Against $850 Billion Bailout Package. The membership of the national party also votes on the party program.

    Is this the beginning of the end of the Boston Tea Party?

    The BTP is electing a new National Committee at a convention next week. Those of us running for positions on the committee (I am one of them) intend to clean up this mess, restore the Florida affiliate, put this issue behind us, and continue building the party toward a larger membership and more elected public officials. After November 5th, Charles Jay is no longer the party’s candidate for President and Jim Davidson is no longer the party’s national chair. This feud was between a handful of people with a few other people taking sides. I am not one of those people, and as far as I can tell neither is Chris Bennett who is running for Chair. If we are elected next week, we will quickly get things back in order.

  30. Sean Scallon

    This is so predictable. Non-major party politics at its finest.

    An Offshoot of LP establishes itself and is now riven by intra-party factions (an after only two years too, that must be record timing) and now a disaffiliation but one of its few state affiliates. Cute. And what is this all about anyway? What important issue are arguing about here? The endorsement of a candidate? Somebody snopping on someone else’s conversations? Is this for real?

    For all you “splitters” out there, just remember the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. Successful political parties by their inherent nature have factions and wings and they fight it out in primaries but come together in the end to support whoever wins unless that candidate diametrically opposes what you believe. And in that case, you sit on your hands, wait them out and then take over when the other faction proves it can’t win.

    That’ s why Mary Ruwart and Steve Kubby were smart not to leave the LP National Committee to join the nascent BTP. They may very be back in charge if Bob Barr doesn’t get over a million votes and will probably take Bill Redpath down with him.

    Does this split mean the end of the BTP? Why don’t we just say the BTP never really got started to begin with.

    But hey, enjoy your little spitwad shooting war nonetheless. You’ll certainly prove it just the socialists who love tearing themselves apart over nothing.

  31. Sean Scallon

    his is so predictable. Non-major party politics at its finest.

    An Offshoot of LP establishes itself and is now riven by intra-party factions (an after only two years too, that must be record timing) and now a disaffiliation but one of its few state affiliates. Cute. And what is this all about anyway? What important issue are arguing about here? The endorsement of a candidate? Somebody snooping on someone else’s conversations? Is this for real?

    For all you “splitters” out there, just remember the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. Successful political parties by their inherent nature have factions and wings and they fight it out in primaries but come together in the end to support whoever wins unless that candidate diametrically opposes what you believe. And in that case, you sit on your hands, wait them out and then take over when the other faction proves it can’t win.

    That’ s why Mary Ruwart and Steve Kubby were smart not to leave the LP National Committee to join the nascent BTP. They may very be back in charge if Bob Barr doesn’t get over a million votes and will probably take Bill Redpath down with him.

    Does this split mean the end of the BTP? Why don’t we just say the BTP never really got started to begin with.

    But hey, enjoy your little spitwad shooting war nonetheless. You’ll certainly prove it just the socialists who love tearing themselves apart over nothing.

  32. Sean Scallon

    his is so predictable. Non-major party politics at its finest.

    An Offshoot of LP establishes itself and is now riven by intra-party factions (an after only two years too, that must be record timing) and now a disaffiliation but one of its few state affiliates. Cute. And what is this all about anyway? What important issue are arguing about here? The endorsement of a candidate? Somebody snooping on someone else’s conversations? Is this for real?

    For all you “splitters” out there, just remember the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. Successful political parties by their inherent nature have factions and wings and they fight it out in primaries but come together in the end to support whoever wins unless that candidate diametrically opposes what you believe. And in that case, you sit on your hands, wait them out and then take over when the other faction proves it can’t win.

    That’ s why Mary Ruwart and Steve Kubby were smart not to leave the LP National Committee to join the nascent BTP. They may very be back in charge if Bob Barr doesn’t get over a million votes and will probably take Bill Redpath down with him.

    Does this split mean the end of the BTP? Why don’t we just say the BTP never really got started to begin with.

    But hey, enjoy your little spitwad shooting war nonetheless. You’ll certainly prove it isn’t just the socialists who love tearing themselves apart over nothing.

  33. Thomas L. Knapp

    Sean,

    Is this some kind of exercise in magic — “if I say the same thing three times, it may somehow become true?”

    I’m unaware of any “intra-party factions” in the BTP at present. The conflict is entirely one of personalities, none of whom (myself included) have been making themselves look very good the last few days.

    While I understand the motivations behind the Florida BTP’s action, I do believe it to have been a bad idea and I hope that it will be undone shortly.

    I have requested that the BTP’s national committee take up the question of whether the party’s web site is to be the web site of a political party or a venue for personal feuds. If the former, then those feuds will be moved off its front page. If the latter, then you haven’t seen nasty yet.

  34. G.E. Post author

    The short version of what started this particular chain events is that Dagny Kira Barnes, the daughter of John Wayne Smith (the BTP’s balloted vice-presidential candidate in Florida) accuses her father of having molested her as a child. He denies the allegation.

    In her email contact with Mr. Barnett, she was hot-tempered and planned to (quote from memory) “tell everyone I know what kind of person you run for vice-president.”

    Another downside of the multiple VP idea.

  35. Coming Back to the LP

    What’s smaller than a tempest in a teapot?

    A tempest in a BOSTON teapot.

    The only thing smaller than the Boston Tea Party breaking into factions would be the Milnes Party breaking into factions. (Of course, that has already happened.)

    A nice Sam Adams beer at the Barr looks better now, eh?

    (It used to be that I really liked ROOT Beer.)

    (This is all too meaningless and silly not to pause for a bit of refreshing humor.)

    And now, it’s time for a strong cuppa coffee.

    Back to the LP guys.

    The 2008 campaign is almost over. It’s time to get serious and smash the state.

  36. Sean Scallon

    No, it’s not an exercise in magic Tom it’s just making sure you get it right.

    Maybe you’re right that this involved individuals instead of factions because one needs actual members to have factions.

    All the BTP is is just a handful of disgruntled libertarians and apparently, that’s all it will ever amount to.

    So again, enjoy the infighting. It seems that’s what parties like the BTP do best.

  37. Thomas L. Knapp

    Sean,

    “So again, enjoy the infighting. It seems that’s what parties like the BTP do best.”

    Not so much, really. Of the party’s 500 or so members, fewer than 10 are actively involved in this little dustup, and most of them reluctantly. so.

    The Boston Tea Party has more members today than the LP had when it ran its first presidential ticket.

    The Boston Tea Party’s first presidential slate is on more ballots than the LP’s first presidential slate was.

    I consider it extremely likely that the Boston Tea Party’s first presidential slate will receive more votes than the LP’s first presidential slate did.

    In the big scheme of things, that hardly rates as “success,” but it’s a metric at any rate — and a metric into which one might reasonably factor the fact that the BTP has to fight an established brand for the same electoral niche.

    I expect the BTP to appear on more ballots in 2010 than it did in 2008.

    I expect the BTP to appear on more ballots in 2012 than it does in 2010.

    I expect the BTP to build a much larger list of current officeholders over time than it has at present (two, one local, one federal, one elected, one appointed).

    Part of the good things in the current situation, and the prospects of future success, btw, is a lot of hard work on the part of Jim Davidson. Although he seems determined to attempt to destroy at least as much as he’s built with his current rampage, I don’t think he’ll succeed.

  38. Michael Seebeck

    Comming, you missed one: It should be a “Kubby Coffee”, not a “cuppa coffee”. LOL!

    Seriously, though, is this trip really necessary?

  39. Coming Back to the LP

    Michael Seebeck // Oct 20, 2008 at 2:26 pm

    Comming, you missed one: It should be a “Kubby Coffee”, not a “cuppa coffee”. LOL!

    Seriously, though, is this trip really necessary?

    Thanks for that.

    But, I think I’ll skip that Kubb y coffee….

    it’s time for a Knapp.

  40. hlm

    I’m not voting for anyone so this is not partisan. A daughter says her father molested her. Well, there are no end of false accusations around. The question for the BTP and any fair person is this: Has the man been convicted of anything? If the answer is no then the matter has to be dropped.

    There are some very demented women who make up stories for various reasons (men as well, I might add). The purpose of courts is to sort that out. If no court has ruled then taking the word of someone merely because they are making a nasty accusation is absurd. It invites false accusations as means of punishing people for other slights that are not criminal.

    Innocent, until PROVEN guilty, ought to apply.

    Hell, the way some cases have gone you could say that many people are still innocent after being found guilty but that is a different matter.

    Have any charges ever been filed? Was there a court case? Was he found guilty? Unless we get a “yes” to all these questions, it is dead.

  41. Thomas L. Knapp

    hlm,

    You seem to be somewhat confused.

    A political party is not a court of law. It is not a political party’s job to prove allegations “beyond a reasonable doubt” or dismiss them entirely if it can’t. Nor, for that matter is operating from a presumption of innocence, strictly speaking, a political party’s function. A political party’s job is to choose candidates who represent it well both on ideology/issues and as people.

    That said, to the best of my knowledge, nobody in the Boston Tea Party has played the “throw John Wayne Smith under the bus” game, least of all Charles Jay.

    As a matter of fact THIS WHOLE CONTROVERSY arose from the fact that in the presidential campaign, one important value was to NOT publicly embarrass Mr. Smith with these allegations until and unless they could be substantiated — perhaps not “proven beyond a reasonable doubt,” but at least some basis beyond the claim itself for believing the allegations to be true.

    The BTP national committee’s officers weren’t interested in throwing Mr. Smith under the bus (and I’m starting to tire of that expression, btw) either, but they are required to operate according to a different standard — they’re not ALLOWED to say “let’s not talk about this in public until we know more.”

    Thus, an unfortunate situation turned into a conflict that’s gone well beyond the initial allegations. That happens.

    The fact that different groups of people are constrained by different sets of rules doesn’t make either group “wrong.”

    This affair also demonstrates some of the limits of communication via email. Mr. Jay took Mr. Davidson’s “secret cabal” remarks as sarcastic, and as indicating that yes, Mr. Davidson did indeed want to know what was being said in the presidential campaign (“monitor”). Now Mr. Davidson accuses Jay of lying, because Mr. Jay thought Mr. Davidson meant something that Mr. Davidson says he didn’t mean.

    It’s a mess. I believe that Mr. Jay, Mr. Davidson, Mr. Bennett, Mr. Barnett, Ms. Hogarth (extend list as you like; there are, of course, reasonable questions as to the truthfulness of both accuser and accused, but they are questions, not conclusions ) are all acting in good faith and trying to do what they believe are the right things. That doesn’t necessarily make things easier or less messy … but it does support my believe that things will eventually get sorted out and that the party will come out the other side intact and stronger than ever.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *