Wayne Root Running For Chair of Libertarian Party

2008 Libertarian Vice-Presidential Candidate Wayne Root announced tonight at the LP of California annual convention that he will be running for Chair of the LP at its 2010 national convention in St. Louis.

Root still plans to run for the 2012 LP Presidential nomination.  In his energetic speech to an LPCA fundraising banquet tonight, he also said that he has changed his mind and now supports is open to the Fair Tax.  Root said that the Fair Tax should be a replacement for all other taxes on income, production, business, payroll, capital gains, and inheritance.  He contrasted in vivid detail the differences in taxation and business climate between California and his own state of Nevada.

Root also said he could solve the problems in America’s financial and housing markets by offering instant citizenship to any immigrant willing to invest $250,000 in an American home or business.  Root will discuss these ideas in more detail in his nearly-400-page forthcoming book, The Conscience Of A Libertarian.

Clarification: what Wayne said is that he wants to replicate at the federal level the Nevada model of no income taxes, business taxes, death taxes, capital gains taxes or IRS.  He says is is open to any strategy that gets us to that model, whether it’s a flat tax, or fair tax, or even eliminating all federal taxes and moving all taxation to the state level.  He emphasized that his first priority is to dramatically cut spending.

Wayne adds: “I’ve decided to run for LP Chairman assuming Bill Redpath does not run for re-election. But my decision is dependent on that decision by Bill. In the heat of moment yesterday I did not mention that second part.”

173 thoughts on “Wayne Root Running For Chair of Libertarian Party

  1. Brian Holtz Post author

    Root would be better advised to advocate a Green Tax Shift rather than the Fair Tax — especially since Root says he favors “sin taxes”. A true “sin tax” would only tax actual aggression — polluting, depleting, congesting, or monopolizing the commons — rather than taxing innocent personal recreation.

    A balanced Left/Right appeal could be built on a combination of Green Tax Shift and either the Liberty Amendment or the Federalism Amendment.

  2. Erik Geib

    Please tell me there is a better alternative emerging for this position. Anyone else announced in the running thus far?

  3. Libertarian Joseph

    #1

    “Root would be better advised to advocate a Green Tax Shift rather than the Fair Tax”

    Um, what about no taxes? Neither the fairtax nor flat tax are any better.

  4. Beth

    Chuck –
    Does that mean that you will run for chair?

    Your advocacy for transparency and fairness would make you my pick.

  5. George Phillies

    There are suggestions that Region 6 Alternate Jake Porter is considering running for Chair.

    Wayne Root did do something for the Party–he handed the 2008 nomination to Bob Barr.

    Given the performance of the LNC over the past decade, and the level of debate and focus on issues shown by the LNC on the LNC-discuss list, perhaps one might propose that LNC membership should be viewed as grounds for profound suspicion of unfitness to serve.

  6. NewFederalist

    He is just soooo difficult to like. He comes off as a huckster even when he is saying good things. Perhaps Billy Mays…?

  7. Fred Ralston

    Unfortunately, this is not the type of personality that would bring me pack to the Party. Last year’s check was the last they will get from me in the foreseeable future.

  8. Brian Holtz Post author

    Wayne adds: “I’ve decided to run for LP Chairman assuming Bill Redpath does not run for re-election. But my decision is dependent on that decision by Bill. In the heat of moment yesterday I did not mention that second part.”

  9. libertariangirl

    Ih dont like fair tax either, and there are a cpl other places Wayne could clean up his message to acheive broader support. Im going to write him with my suggestions , he is very open to constructive criticism.

    Im not sure where I stand on this one , but I like the idea of getting more attention in Nevada via Wayne anyway we can .

  10. Libertarian Joseph

    the best thing would be to eliminate the federal income tax. didn’t y’all read the mises article on this topic? http://mises.org/story/3389

    is it viable? yeah. we don’t even use taxs to “pay our bills,” we use inflation to pay for just about everything, so what difference does it make? If cutting taxes INCREASES revenue, then how much revenue would eliminating the federal income tax create? loads!

    If you use the reaganesque language that “tax cuts increase revenue” then you just follow that to its logical end and eliminate the entire thing. I bet the workers would be happy.

    Yeah, Reagan sucked. I’m not a fan.

    That’s the only tax system I’m prepared to accept. No system

  11. Steven R Linnabary

    Root has a propensity for getting a lot of media attention, which could be good for the LP. Especially if the LP continues to water down it’s platform.

    And there is at least some merit in the idea of the LP candidate also being the party chair, if there are no other Presidential candidates. But there are other candidates.

    I would have just as much of a problem if Tom Knapp were to decide to seek to be the chair of the LP.

    And Tom, IMHO, has much better libertarian credentials. At least Tom never proposed citizenship for Osama bin Laden “offering instant citizenship to any immigrant willing to invest $250,000 in an American home”.

    🙂

    PEACE

  12. Susan Hogarth

    Agree with Chuck that the Chair – except in extraordinary circumstances – should have served on the board before. Also think this applies to Vice-Chair, which was one of the less important reasons I was so irked that the Convention replaced Chuck with Jingozian. Jingozian ought to have run for an at-large seat.

    Water under the bridge….

  13. Andy

    I won’t support any candidate who supports the Fair Tax fraud. The Fair Tax is not an incremental step towards liberty, it is a Trojan Horse issue.

  14. Andy

    This party really needs some better candidates for Chair in 2010 and for President in 2012.

  15. HumbleTravis

    The FairTax is truly awful but it has a built-in following and its promoters have appropriated much of the anti-IRS rhetoric of the 1980s-1990s. Since the rest of the tax critics are splintered or not as visible, the FairTax appears to be a “movement” rather than just another piece of bad policy.

  16. Susan Hogarth

    That’s one of the main fallacies of the faitax. It will create a HUGE black market.

    Hell, that’s the only good aspect of it 🙂

  17. Andy

    “Susan Hogarth // Apr 26, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    ‘That’s one of the main fallacies of the faitax. It will create a HUGE black market.’

    Hell, that’s the only good aspect of it.”

    The Fair Tax will be more difficult to avoid than the income tax, which is one of the bad aspects of it.

  18. Thomas L. Knapp

    Steven,

    Thanks for the credentials ego boost — but I’m sure I’m not needed to run for chair. I expect one or more worthy candidates to step forward for that duty.

    I’d encourage Libertarians to evaluate Mr. Root’s prospective candidacy for chair less on the basis of political issues positions and more on the basis of his past performance as a corporate CEO, which I think is more germane to the position.

    Regards,
    Tom Knapp

  19. Mike Theodore

    “I’ve decided to run for LP Chairman assuming Bill Redpath does not run for re-election. But my decision is dependent on that decision by Bill. In the heat of moment yesterday I did not mention that second part.”

    I’m too pooped to say anything that holds the illusion of being insightful, so how about: The line it is drawn, the curse it is cast, the slow one now will later be fast, as the present now will later be past.

    He’s stuck himself with Redpath. So I can proudly say that in 2010, let’s through out the Redpath/Root faction that ran the party into the mud.

  20. Michael Seebeck

    “I’ll run for Chair id Redpath doesn’t”.

    May I have some clippers for that hedge?

  21. a different paul

    I never heard of the guy and don’t know anything good or bad about him, but am I correct in my impression the biggest complaint against Wayne Root is that he doesn’t advocate an end to all taxes?

  22. MattSwartz

    I never heard of the guy and don’t know anything good or bad about him, but am I correct in my impression the biggest complaint against Wayne Root is that he doesn’t advocate an end to all taxes?

    Oddly, that’s what the discussion here is focused exclusively on, but his biggest problem is his neo-con foreign policy leanings.

    http://www.dailypaul.com/node/50904

    Also, some of his business dealings in the past don’t pass the “smell test”.

    http://forum.sbrforum.com/players-talk/2303-i-worked-wayne-root-let-me-tell-you-about.html

    http://knappster.blogspot.com/2008/02/down-and-dirty-on-wayne-root.html

  23. Thomas L. Knapp

    adp,

    You write:

    “am I correct in my impression the biggest complaint against Wayne Root is that he doesn’t advocate an end to all taxes?”

    No.

    For any candidate, there are likely any number of complaints, from various parties.

    Up to this point, the complaints I’ve heard (and in some cases made) about Wayne Root have hardly ever centered on his views on taxes.

  24. Michael Seebeck

    My biggest complaint about Root is that he comes across like a hyperactive used-car salesman. He’s coming around the issues, but his presentation is overwhelming and he needs to tone it down a little, like to a dull roar.

  25. fairmark

    texas has the best state economy in the country. why? sales tax only baby, sales tax!

  26. Susan Hogarth

    texas has the best state economy in the country. why? sales tax only baby, sales tax!

    Think how much better it would be with NO tax!

    I mean, do you wake up in the morning saying “Give me aches, of Lord, because I don’t want aches and pains!”?

  27. G.E.

    “The Fair Tax will be more difficult to avoid than the income tax, which is one of the bad aspects of it.”

    DO. NOT. AGREE

  28. G.E.

    Accidentily hit SUBMIT.

    Income tax is impossible, nearly impossible to avoid unless you’re self-employed. EVERYONE would be cutting out on the FraudTax. I still think it’s even worse than the income tax; but that is one “good” aspect of it, Andy.

    WAR is a Redpathian stooge. He’s just what the party deserves.

  29. G.E.

    Texas has a “great” economy because it taxes every single economic transaction. Wonderful. Why not let all states decide what kind of taxation works best, rather than having it imposed by the federal leviathan? I’m voting for none at all.

  30. Robert Capozzi

    andy: The Fair Tax will be more difficult to avoid than the income tax, which is one of the bad aspects of it.

    me: while I am NOT a Fair Tax advocate, I find this logic tortured. For me, SPENDING is the tax, the way revenue is raised is a secondary consideration. Those who pay taxes are suckers, we Ls want some to be able to avoid taxes while others pay.

    I’d much prefer to see us Ls create a situation wher there’s taxpayer solidarity, wanting everyone’s taxes to decline. Atomism is no way to roll back the State. And a porous tax base has NOT led to lower taxes; in fact, the opposite is true. The tax and spend burden has INCREASED when the tax base has become become riddled with preferences.

    Poor strategyIMO.

  31. G.E.

    F that Capozzi, solidarity of NON-taxpayers is a better front. Of course, that would mean the withering way of your beloved coercive state, so it’s a no-go for you.

  32. John Famularo

    Susan Hogarth wrote,
    “Think how much better it would be with NO tax!”

    It would be a lot better, but the LP has to show how it can be accomplished while still securing individual rights. User fees and insurance. The general public is never going to embrace anarchy. At least with user fees and premiums for protection services based on the value of property, the indivisdual could choose the level of protection he wants. The rich would pay more than the poor and the litigious would pay more than the non-litigious et cetera. People should also have the option of donating services in lieu of payment.

    In any event the LP would have to tailor its pitch to the common man. The LP could start by organizing itself in such a fashion. I know that someone like George Phillies knows more about FEC filings than any consultant the LPHQ can hire. I know there are dozens if not hundreds of LP members who could maintain LP,org for free and do a lot netter job. Do you know what the LPHQ spends on LP.org maintenance?
    What about giving volunteers membership credit for signatures gathered?

    Too difficult and too much coordination required? Yes I know. That is the same excuse the government gives.

  33. mscrib

    The cascading sales tax (on transactions at all stages of production and distribution) in Texas is ridiculous from any reasonable economic perspective. People in the statehouse have thus far been too stupid to realize this. Not a model to emulate.

  34. mscrib

    The administrative and compliance costs associated with the “FairTax” are far lower than the current tax system. It’s far easier to force businesses to pay taxes than individuals. Also, moving towards taxing consumption will pretty much force states to abandon their individual income taxes since they freeride off of the IRS’ tax compliance efforts. The tax industry (e.g. H&R Block, tax attorneys, etc.) will be put out of business overnight.

  35. Erik Geib

    Set aside his stance on taxes for a minute (because we can all bicker about this relentlessly). Root shouldn’t be the new chair because a lot of what he does reeks of ambitious attention-mongering. Root’s very aware of how great he thinks he is, and would like everyone else to think the same. To that end, I couldn’t comment on how ‘genuine’ his views are, because they very well could be quite genuine. The problem, in my eyes, is that they don’t appear so. He reminds me of Glenn Beck with a couple years head-start… someone very aware of the public’s gradual shifting towards a more libertarian philosophy, but also someone ambitious enough that they want to be the leader of such people with their own ‘brand’ of thought.

    Ugh.

  36. Susan Hogarth

    [No tax] would be a lot better, but the LP has to show how it can be accomplished while still securing individual rights.

    I agree. My point was simply that pushing a sales tax (as it seemed to me that the person I was replying to was doing) as a way to improve the economy is like pushing the common cold as a way to improve your health (‘hey! it beats cancer, baby!’).

    User fees and insurance.

    That’s one possibility, yes. One among several, or many.

    The general public is never going to embrace anarchy.

    I do not have your confidence in predicting the future of human political thought.

    At least with user fees and premiums for protection services based on the value of property, the indivisdual could choose the level of protection he wants….

    I’m not sure, but it seems like you think we disagree on this. I am happy to assure you that we do not.

    In any event the LP would have to tailor its pitch to the common man.

    Which should not be difficult, as we *are* all common men (and women).

    BIG SHIFT IN SUBJECT HERE – to LP GOVERNANCE.

    The LP could start by organizing itself in such a fashion.

    This idea of molding a political party in what you perceive to be the image of the voluntary society is interesting, but I think there are some problems with it. First, political parties (let’s just say ‘third parties’) ARE voluntary associations already. But on a deeper level, as an organization we can only possibly present one model of voluntarism, while we have to acknowledge that freedom will almost certainly consist of several or many such types of voluntarism working side-by-side.

    I know that someone like George Phillies knows more about FEC filings than any consultant the LPHQ can hire. I know there are dozens if not hundreds of LP members who could maintain LP,org for free and do a lot netter job. Do you know what the LPHQ spends on LP.org maintenance?

    I think more volunteer involvement is a Good Thing, in general, but I don’t see it particularly as any sort of political statement.

    But I don’t see any particular problem with paying professionals for their time and effort rather than volunteers. I’ve been a part of organizations which were all-volunteer, all-professional, and mixed (as the LP is). The mixed model is potentially the most rewarding, but it does take some shuffling.

    What about giving volunteers membership credit for signatures gathered?

    I absolutely think we should work out such a system. Perhaps you’d like to start drafting some sort of plan which could be presented to the National Committee or various state committees to accomplish this?

    Too difficult and too much coordination required? Yes I know. That is the same excuse the government gives.

    Why don’t you wait until someone disagrees with you *before* you let yourself get irked by it?

    Consider that many more Libertarians have some spare cash than spare time. Why should we hobble ourselves to an all-volunteer model when people are willing to pay professionals?

    Suppose we had an all-volunteer model. Suppose someone wanted to pay 70K per year to hire someone at 35K (plus benefits) to gather signatures. Should we refuse? Suppose someone committed to raising 70K per year from Libertarians to pay such a person – should we refuse?

  37. Susan Hogarth

    The administrative and compliance costs associated with the “FairTax” are far lower than the current tax system. It’s far easier to force businesses to pay taxes than individuals.

    This is a Big Negative (one among many) of the national sales tax proposal(s). The ‘easier’ it becomes for government to ‘force’ people and businesses to give up money, the worse it is for freedom.

    Sadly, the income tax is all-too-easy for the feds, anyway, so it’s probably pretty much a wash, there, anyway.

  38. Erik Geib

    People seem to forget that there’s little stopping the government (in our current state) from switching to the ‘fair tax’ and then instituting an income tax anyway. Nor is there much to stop the states from dramatically raising their state income tax levels if federal income tax levels were lowered.

  39. robert capozzi

    ge, ok, I’m open to your non-taxpayer solidarity strategy. what percentage of the pop is off the grid? 1 or 2 %? Paint your picture of how a tiny percentage of the pop brings about no State?

    also, you seem to forget I’m a TAAAList. Pro whithering, dude.

  40. robert capozzi

    eric, I doubt anyone “forgets” the insidious nature of creeping statism. we can take our best shot and maintain eternal vigilance.

    what’s the alternative?

  41. Erik Geib

    The alternative would be a steadfast opposition to the income tax, while offering up solutions as to how and where the free market can better serve us than the heavy hand of government. Go forward best with the summation of Bastiat, “Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all.”

    I agree that we could offer up better tax ideas from a minarchist perspective, but the ‘fair tax’ certainly isn’t one of them. As I’ve said before, I don’t think it’s beyond the government to realize “ooo, we can ‘fair tax’ all and still ‘income tax’ half too!” I think implementing the ‘fair tax’ as an ‘alternative’ will undoubtedly lead to increased taxation (by the combination of which I speak), not equal or similar ‘fairer’ taxation as its proponents suggest. It just opens another door for the federal government to suppress the voice of liberty.

  42. John Famularo

    “drafting some sort of plan which could be presented to the National Committee or various state committees to accomplish this?”

    I have and I would, if the LP ever decides on exactly what it is trying to achieve. A clear, concise, unambiguous, measurable, achievable mission. (not a laundry list of “purposes”).

    “Suppose someone wanted to pay 70K per year to hire someone at 35K (plus benefits) to gather signatures. Should we refuse?”

    Yes.

    ” Suppose someone committed to raising 70K per year from Libertarians to pay such a person – should we refuse?”

    Yes.

    As I stated before volunteerism is more useful than fund raising, and most of the internal problems in the LP over the last 35 years have something ti do with paid staff. If there was a archive of actual LP history, people could see this for themselves. Why does yhay not exist?

    The LP membership is always living in the present with no guidance of experience of the past.

  43. mscrib

    This is a Big Negative (one among many) of the national sales tax proposal(s). The ‘easier’ it becomes for government to ‘force’ people and businesses to give up money, the worse it is for freedom.

    Presumably, taxes are going to exist as long as government exists. A consumption tax is far more efficient (less excess burden) than a tax on income (especially when compared to the U.S.’s current system of individual income + corporate income + capital gains + federal excise + etc… taxes). If we can raise the same amount of revenue with fewer economic distortions and lower administrative and compliance costs, I’m all for it.

  44. Aaron Russo Jew

    libertariangirl:

    Don’t be played for a fool. You and that crazy psycopath that you elected chair in Nevada may like Bob Barr and Wayne Allyn Root, but he is the wrong person to lead anything.

    W.A.R is pathetic enough to be led around on a leash by that effeminite Zionazi that spends his time as Treasurer attacking Libertarian members of the Libertarian Naitonal Committee.

    W.A.R. supports radical Jewish extremism from the tyrannical state of Israel. It is time for him to go back to the Republican party like the neocon really wants.

    I liked Nevada better when it was strong enough to stand up to neocons like Barr / Root.

  45. Aaron Russo Jew

    libertariangirl:

    Don’t be played for a fool. You and that crazy psycopath that you elected chair in Nevada may like Bob Barr and Wayne Allyn Root, but he is the wrong person to lead anything.

    W.A.R is pathetic enough to be led around on a leash by that effeminite Zionazi that spends his time as Treasurer attacking Libertarian members of the Libertarian Naitonal Committee.

    W.A.R. supports radical Jewish extremism from the tyrannical state of Israel. It is time for him to go back to the Republican party like the neocon really wants.

    I liked Nevada better when it was strong enough to stand up to neocons like Barr / Root.

  46. Michael Seebeck

    I believe in a Fair Tax.

    Of course, I also believe a fair tax rate is 0%….

  47. Brian Miller

    An exodus from the state party in CA *and* Root running for chair?

    Oh dear. It looks like the LP’s crackup is accelerating!

  48. Rocky Eades

    And then we have the “presumptive” candidate for the US Senate seat here in Georgia suggesting that if the LP wants to win elections, the Fair Tax folks (those who would impose a sales tax) and the Flat Tax folks (those who would impose an income tax) have to come to some sort of “compromise” tax plan! Completely ignoring, of course, those in the LP who propose one of the several “no-tax” plans. Got to be “practical”, you know, if your most important goal is winning elections by getting the votes of people who have no qualms with using guns to steal other people’s wealth and redistributing it to fund their political agendas.

  49. mdh

    The fair tax is only good for the bankers. Paying sales tax is one thing, but keep in mind that making a $10,000 car cost $12,300 or so, now means that people are financing that extra $2,300. This means more interest paid. It’s basically just another way to allow the bankers to directly tax citizens. Scary stuff!

    On top of that, imagine how many people buy groceries, furniture, etc with credit cards. They pay interest on that too, and the sales tax on it is also charged to the credit account.

  50. Erik Geib

    “practical” sure worked out in selecting Kerry in ’04 and McCain in ’08 for the Dems and Repubs respectively.

  51. Rocky Eades

    @ #60 mdh wrote: “…making a $10,000 car cost $12,300 or so, now means that people are financing that extra $2,300.”

    That $10,000 car would cost $13,000 – not $12,300 – under the current proposed so-called Fair Tax plan. According to the GAO or OMB, who did a study on behalf of some of the so-called Fair Tax folks, that car could actually end up costing as much as $15,600.

  52. G.E.

    ge, ok, I’m open to your non-taxpayer solidarity strategy. what percentage of the pop is off the grid? 1 or 2 %? Paint your picture of how a tiny percentage of the pop brings about no State?

    If the FraudTax were adopted, the # of people who were “off the grid,” tax-wise, would be much higher than it is now… But your 1% or 2% estimate is laughably naive. Hey, ever heard of Alan Keyes?

  53. robert capozzi

    GE, ok, what’s a good estimate of those living off the grid? Mine were not estimates, just placeholder numbers.

    I’m not a Fair taxer, but if you are correct that it would INCREASE the numbers of undocumented, I’d think you’d be FOR it, since you’ve stated it as a goal. I’m not sure it would have that effect, though it might. Why do you think it would?

    And, you may not recall that I do know who Keyes is…I just didn’t know about his family soap opera.

  54. G.E.

    Yeah, and you ASSumed because you didn’t, no one else did. Very arrogant. And just as wrong as your ludicrous assessment of non-taxpayers. To be clear, that’s what you mean by “off the grid,” right? Not people who are literally off the electrical grid…

    The tax evasion that goes on now is a personal matter. Tax evasion under the FraudTax would be cooperative, and thus more overtly revolutionary. People who evade taxes now do so largely in silent shame once a year. Those who would do so under the FraudTax would be very conscious of their evasion, which would take place EVERY day.

    But your complete lack of ethics is exposed once more: Just because I think the FraudTax would lead to a decline in governmental revenues and an increase in libertarian class consciousness, it does not mean I support the FraudTax, which is an initiation of force. That, and not utility, is how I base what I support and do not support. You’re using the same sick ethics of the Bush admin stooges who argue it’s justifiable to sexually molest the child of a terror suspect if it could lead to information that could be useful in saving other lives.

  55. robert capozzi

    GE, I guess in your mind you’ve given a substantive response. Good for you! I’m not seeing it, however, just ad hominem non sequiturs.

    Yes, off the grid means living with little to no documentation of ones economic activities.

  56. Michael Seebeck

    I don’t know what CA membership exodus Brian is talking about. Membership totals are recovered from a dip in 2008 and are back at 2007 levels and are projected to be going up.

    At least that’s what the Secrerary’s Report said, and I didn’t see Brian in attendance either, nor was he on the credentialed delegates list, so I can only conclude his claim false.

  57. Trent Hill

    I just recieved a robo-call from the LP headquarters saying I was “no longer” a sustaining member (I never have been, nor a member in any capacity). The robo-call was voiced by Wayne Root, who introduced himself at the beginning of the call (as the 2008 Vice-presidential candidate). Interesting.

  58. Michael H. Wilson

    We received a phone call from Root while I was at work today. My wife hung up and commented to me when I got home that he was over the top. Way too much. This isn’t Crazy Eddie’s Midnight Mattress Sale. Someone tell him to tone it down.

  59. Andy

    “39 G.E. // Apr 26, 2009 at 6:22 pm

    Accidentily hit SUBMIT.

    Income tax is impossible, nearly impossible to avoid unless you’re self-employed. EVERYONE would be cutting out on the FraudTax. I still think it’s even worse than the income tax; but that is one “good” aspect of it, Andy.”

    GE, I think that you are wrong about which tax is or would be more difficult to avoid between the income tax and the (so called) Fair Tax (ie-national sales tax plan pushed by John Linder and Neal Boortz).

    I know and have met lots of people who don’t pay income taxes. I know people who’ve avoided the income tax for over 20 years. I know people who have NEVER filed an income tax return and whom the IRS has never gone after. I’ve even met people who have “regular” jobs who’ve managed to avoid paying income taxes.

    There are millions of people who don’t file taxes ever years. The IRS can’t go after all of them because they don’t have the time, budget, or manpower necessary to go after them.

    If the Fair Tax plan were implemented all of these people would have to pay it every time they went shopping for goods & services. OK, sure, a black market would spring up and there’d still be some people who’d avoid even the Fair Tax, HOWEVER, keep in mind that it would be far easier for the government to go after a (relatively) few merchants & service providers who’d engage in black market sales than it would be to go after millions of non-income tax filers. Also, we all know damn well that all of the big corporate stores and big service providers would gladly bend over and extract the Fair Tax from their customers.

    The Feds know that there are millions of people who dodge the income tax and that it is hard to collect so that’s why they want to ram this national sales tax scheme through.

  60. Andy

    “OK, sure, a black market would spring up and there’d still be some people who’d avoid even the Fair Tax,”

    Actually, I doubt that anyone would be able to completely avoid the Fair Tax, because it would be extremely difficult to function without shopping at any big corporate store that would resist collecting the tax. One would have to go to a gas station, a supermarket, a shopping mall, a Wal-Mart, a Target, a K-Mart, a Home Deptot, an Office Max, etc…. at some point, and when they did, they’d pay the Fair Tax.

    It would be extremely difficult for one to do all of their purchasing of goods & services “off the grid” (so to speak).

  61. Andy

    “me: while I am NOT a Fair Tax advocate, I find this logic tortured. For me, SPENDING is the tax, the way revenue is raised is a secondary consideration. Those who pay taxes are suckers, we Ls want some to be able to avoid taxes while others pay.”

    I agree that SPENDING is the bigger problem, well, that and the Federal Reserve System and fiat currency.

    What method or methods of extortion the government uses against us is secondary to the 2 issues I mentioned above.

    Switching from the income tax to the Fair Tax does not do anything to advance the cause of liberty, it merely switches one method of extortion to another. Even the propoents of the Fair Tax boast that it is revenue nuetral, as it they say that the federal government will bring in just as much money from the Fair Tax as it does from the income tax. I see no point in supporting the Fair Tax.

  62. Aaron Russo Jew

    Trent Hill:

    Please post a copy of that mp3 you mentioned of Millionaire Republican W.A.R. telling people they are no longer members of the Libertarian Party to this forum.

    I didn’t get a phone call … yet 🙂

    How much did Vin Suprinowitz need to pay to vote Republican?

    Abolish Dues. No taxation for participation!

  63. Trent Hill

    “Trent did you find him to be a little too bombastic?”

    Wayne Root IS bombastic. That’s his schtick, like being hyperbolous (is that a word?) is part of GE’s charm, or being smarmy is part of mine.

  64. Mik Robertson

    It seems the Fair Tax is getting unfairly characterized or is misunderstood by some on this list. If the Fair Tax were to replace the income tax, as has been proposed, the prices of items wouldn’t change much. This is a revenue-neutral proposal.

    The costs for the same amount of income tax is already in the price of everything, it’s just hidden. In fact, if anything, the costs for the income tax are probably greater because of the costs to understand and try to comply with the income tax code.

    The only advantage to Fair Tax as proposed is that it makes tax collection much more transparent. Everyone can see how much they are paying with every purchase. As it is now, a lot of people don’t think they pay any income tax, particularly when they get money back at the end of the year.

    Other that that, Penn Jillette for LNC Chair (but only if Bill Redpath doesn’t run again).

  65. LP Observer

    Hobbit Kraus announces a test robocall to LP members using Wayne Root’s voice after Wayne announces his intent to be the next LNC chair.

    Played like Machiavelli, herr Starr.

  66. Andy

    “Mik Robertson // Apr 27, 2009 at 6:17 pm

    It seems the Fair Tax is getting unfairly characterized or is misunderstood by some on this list. If the Fair Tax were to replace the income tax, as has been proposed, the prices of items wouldn’t change much. This is a revenue-neutral proposal.”

    The fact that it is revenue nuetral is a reason to not support it, in my opinion. I want the government to have less revenue so my focus is on eliminating or at least reducing taxes by a large amount. Also, the bigger issues are the amount of spending and fiat currency and the Fair Tax does not address these things.

  67. Richard Cooper

    It seems improper to me to run for President from the LNC Chair position.

    At the very least, everything the Chair says or does would be suspect as using the LPHQ for his personal ambition.

    On the other hand, it would not be a bad idea to serve on the LNC before running for president.

  68. Mik Robertson

    “Also, the bigger issues are the amount of spending and fiat currency and the Fair Tax does not address these things.”

    I agree those are bigger issues, but I’m not sure many in the general public understand that. Having a more honest and open tax structure will make it more apparent to the general public how much the government takes to spend. Nothing will address spending faster than having a bunch of irate citizens calling their representatives complaining every time they have to pay a hefty consumption tax with each purchase.

  69. Bryan

    OK…I’m trying to follow along here…but damn…from Root for chair to a complete discussion on the “fair tax”???

    I don’t have too many problems with Root running for prez…but I agree with a few others that there should be some experience at the National level before becoming chair.

    “Fair Tax”? From my understanding, many would be (at least partially) exempt from this tax. Add to this the number of people who would “get around” the tax by buying second hand, bartering, and going to the “traditional” black market, I can only support it if there is some limits placed on “legal” purchases.

    I disagree that anyone is pushing “fair tax” because so many avoid income tax. The way things stand now…I get money taken from me before I get to spend any of it…Under a sales tax I would only pay tax on the money I spend…so what’s to keep me from “not spending” anything other than rent, groceries, or gas??

    I’m not promoting “cheating” the fair tax…but I can see A LOT of problems…at least trying to keep up our current government with this type of tax…unless government grows….A LOT to ensure compliance.

  70. Andy

    “Nothing will address spending faster than having a bunch of irate citizens calling their representatives complaining every time they have to pay a hefty consumption tax with each purchase.”

    I’m wondering how many people would really notice anymore than they do now. Most people don’t really examine their sales reciepts when they purchase something. Also, are people going to add up the amount of sales tax they pay for every purchase that they make? I doubt it.

    Some people may complain about the sales tax increase at first, but the response to them would just be something like, “But you don’t have to pay income tax anymore. Remember what a pain that was filling out income tax forms. Now you get to keep all of the money out of your paycheck.”

    After a while I think that a lot of people would grow accustomed to there being a national sales tax and it would become just as accepted as state & local sales taxes are (which means that most people would not question it).

    I just don’t think that the Fair Tax really accomplishes much if anything (from a pro-liberty perspective). It doesn’t seem like a productive thing for libertarians to get behind to me.

  71. Thomas L. Knapp

    Andy,

    You’re right … and then some. Not only would people probably not especially notice the particular amount of the sales tax they pay … what they WOULD notice is that they’re suddenly getting a government welfare check each month.

    Part and parcel of the “Fair” Tax is a universal welfare program — a monthly check, falsely styled a “rebate” or “prebate” (advance rebate), even though it is paid out in uniform amounts to every man, woman and child in the US regardless of whether or not they have paid, or will pay, any tax at all.

    Three guesses how well any proposal to reduce, or even stop the growth of the amount of, those checks will go over once they start coming.

    There’s almost no respect in which the “Fair” Tax is really any better than the income tax, and many ways in which it is considerably worse.

  72. Robert Capozzi

    Richard Cooper: It seems improper to me to run for President from the LNC Chair position.

    Me: I have a similar gut reaction. Dr. Phillies was going to do the same thing in 06 and 08, losing both bids. Still, I’d be interested in his take on the propriety of running for Chair and Prez nomination. And Root’s as well.

  73. Thomas M. Sipos

    Didn’t “small businessman” aka “Millionaire Republican” Root’s business implode, so that he walked off with much money, while his investors were burned?

    Not saying Root did anything illegal, but is he a wise choice to allow near Other People’s Money?

    Every infomercial huckster says to invest and/or buy real estate with OTM — Other People’s Money. Pay yourself handsomely while “risk shifting” to some rube.

  74. Robert Capozzi

    Yes, the Fair Tax does promote tax visibility. That tends to create taxpayer solidarity. But, yes, it also tends to create prebate solidarity.

    There may be some economic performance benefits from not taxing working, saving, and investing, or shifting taxes to consumption…some!

    There’s not much of a natural constituency for the Fair Tax, and very large, very influential lobbies FOR the current “system.” It’s not a cause worth my efforts; I’d prefer to undo the current system in a more strategic way, using Public Choice insights to use ju jitsu against the State.

    Force initiation is with us, and is likely to always be with us. I happen to believe that force mitigation is a worthwhile pursuit. Others may disagree, deriving utility from holding high the banner. Not so much, in my case.

  75. George Phillies

    Capozzi is lying. I was not a candidate for Chair in 2008. If you do not believe me, ask people who attended the convention who teh candidates were.

    In 2006, as I said at the time, I had already promised people I would run for Chair before I announced for President. I kept my promise.

  76. robert capozzi

    George:
    1. A fair minded reader would conclude that I’m more interested in your take on the “conflict of interest” angle of running for both slots. I’m disappointed that you’ve not shared it.
    2. There were perhaps 50 people in the room in Portland when you stated your intent to run for both slots. I find it sad that you feel the need to say I’ve lied. Do I need to poll those there to satisfy you and the assembled that my memory is more or less accurate?
    3. Whazzup with this apparent chip on your shoulder that leads you to overreact? If I recall correctly, I once offhandly remarked that you written 2 books on the history of the LP, and you called me a lier since you’d only written 1.
    In short, chill, dude!

  77. Thomas M. Sipos

    Robert, that Forbes article lists Root’s compensation for 2008.

    But how much did Root earn from his failed company, over the lifetime of his company? How much profit did his investors see over the lifetime of Root’s company?

    I don’t know if Root had only one, or several, companies and how much he made as compared to his investors. That’s why I’m asking.

    I do know that Root claims to be a “Millionaire Republican,” so unless this “small businessman” is lying, he’s earned millions. If not from that company, then from where?

    Or, Robert, are you saying that Root lied about being a millionaire?

    Root is so transparent, I’m surprised he has followers. He clearly doesn’t want to be Chair in the sense of carrying out the duties of Chair. He simply sees that Chair is the Top Spot, and he craves the limelight of being Leader. Unable to wait for 2012 for the presidential nomination, he’s hankering for chair in 2010.

    I was recently emailed that Root called himself the “leader of the antiwar wing of the LP” at the Georgia LP convention. I don’t know if that’s true, but if so, by what right does Root claim to be Leader of antiwar libertarians? I didn’t even know we antiwar libs held an election.

    Root is like a Martian who’s just landed on Earth. Only instead of saying, “Take me to your Leader,” everywhere Root goes, he says, “I want to be your Leader.

    Hardly a libertarian attitude.

  78. mdh

    Robert,
    George saying something in front of 50 people 2 years ahead of time is a lot different from a formal announcement.
    Still, it’s hard to say whether a genuine conflict of interest exists. I believe that a concensus ought to be reached and that should be what Wayne Root goes on in making a final determination as to whether to run for both spots.

  79. robert capozzi

    ts, I’m not saying anything, just trying to understand your perspective on Root.

    You seem fixated on his history as an R and the fact that he once built wealth for himself. These things I have no problem with.

    I’m neutral on his chair and prez nominee campaigns. Like others, he has strengths and weaknesses.

  80. robert capozzi

    mdh, yes, my clause “losing both bids” was inaccurate. Again, I was mostly interested in George’s view of the potential conflict, since he’d considered running for both, given his statement in Portland. His reaction seems to miss my intent entirely. I’m sensing hostility that is not shared on my side…another case for the Rodney King Caucus.

  81. Thomas M. Sipos

    No, I’m fixated on Root being an opportunist, a hollow man who’ll say whatever he thinks people want to hear. I doubt the sincerity of his “antiwar” position. I doubt the sincerity of anything he says. That’s my take on him. A huckster.

    I can overlook Republican. I supported Ron Paul.

    I don’t mind self-made millionaire, or even inherited wealth. But I do think Root “made” his money in an especially sleazy manner. From the bits and pieces I’ve heard or read on the internet, it seems Root burned his investors, mistreated employees, and fleeced his customers by selling useless advice.

    That may be legal, but he’s still a huckster, not a Randian creative genius.

    Root also strikes a chord in me because in my younger days (the 1990s), I worked for “producers” here in Los Angeles who tried to raise independent money for their projects.

    I was naive and believed the lies my bosses spouted. But as time went by, I sat in on business meetings, listened to the deals points, and saw my bosses “behind the scenes” when the investors weren’t present. Real sleaze.

    Oh yes, my bosses also lied and ripped off us employees. And they lied to each other. Very funny (in a sick sort of way) seeing them trying to rip off investors, lie to the employees, then try to outsleaze and rip off each other.

    See the film Hollywood Mistress (aka Mistress), about some producers who try to raise independent money for a film. That film is very close to the truth.

    Independent film financing can be real sleazy.

    I see Root’s glassy eyes, staring at the Top Spot, aching for the limelight, I hear his infomercial delivery, the way he flip flops on issues, trying to be all things to all people, telling his listeners whatever they wish to hear, and he strikes a chord. Makes me want to grab my wallet to see if it’s still there. I expect other people (obviously not everyone) get that same gut reaction.

    I also know Root’s passionate pro-war, pro-McCain/Lieberman background, and that makes his flip flops seem even less likely. More of a lie. So there’s substance behind my gut reaction; it’s not solely emotional. Yes, there’s much substance to distrusting Root.

  82. Aaron Russo Jew

    How can you say he’ll sell anything if he thinks he can make a buck at it?

    Except, now he’s got his face plastered on a billboard advertising some ambulance chaser on the 15 in Sin City – just outside W.A.R.s gated home full of pictures of himself and George W. Bush – in nearby upper suburban Henderson.

    The RJ calls it a shrine to himself. You figure it out. 🙂

  83. Rocky Eades

    @ #92 – Tom Sipos wrote: “I was recently emailed that Root called himself the “leader of the antiwar wing of the LP” at the Georgia LP convention. ”

    I don’t remember that exact claim, though it wouldn’t surprise me that he made it (I rarely listen closely to what Root has to say, and I was flying on 4 hours sleep in the last 60 hours). But I did catch his antiwar “revelation”; it was something along the lines of: there was justification for the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, but we can no longer afford them. As far as I’m concerned, that’s not much of an antiwar position.

  84. robert capozzi

    ts, sounds like in your mind you associate Root with an unpleasant experience in your past. dragging those sorts of associations into the present is generally contra-indicated.

    I’d suggest you stick to the relative merits and demerits without all the emotional baggage.

  85. Beth

    ts, sounds like you’ve got W.A.R. fairly well pegged!

    Wayne repeatedly asks “What do I have to say to get your support?”

  86. robert capozzi

    beth, “what do I have to…” is a fairly standard negotiating tactic.

    contrast that with the implict Rothbardian “does my position on X alienate you enough? If not, I have even MORE outrageous positions…zero taxes not that shocking, how’s about fetuses as parasites?”

  87. Thomas M. Sipos

    I’d suggest you stick to the relative merits and demerits without all the emotional baggage.”

    As I stated, there are plenty of substantive reasons to distrust Root, all emotional baggage aside.

  88. Jim Duenisng

    Which “Fair Tax” is being discussed? All the versions I’ve seen have some measure for the federal government to determine income so they can send rebates to those under some income level because of the inherently regressive nature of sales taxes on necessities.

    I can’t see any solution to the federal taxation / bailout / monetary policy crisis except the constitution’s original policy of having the states collect taxes – if necessary – directly from their citizens. Keep the feds out of direct taxation of hte people and then, whether we have a sales tax or an income tax or a tax on casino profits, we’ll at least have some checks and balances built into the system.

    The power to tax is the power to destroy. I’d rather Congress not have it against individual Americans.

    In liberty, with eternal vigilance,

    Jim Duensing
    http://www.JimDuensing.com

  89. VirtualGalt

    I don’t think lack of prior service on the LNC *necessarily* disqualifies someone as chair.

    If the “challenges” (and I choose the word carefully) really do exist to the degree often implied here and elsewhere, bringing somebody in from the outside to shake things up, clean out the Augean stables, etc etc, might be just the thing to do. Happens in the corporate world all the time.

    Now is Wayne Root the right person to do this? I am too new at all this, to offer an opinion at this time. But I don’t think lack of prior LNC service is an automatic rejection.

    The last time I offered an opinion on the tax issue, was not a pleasant chapter in my libertarian life. So I will demur on that one. At this time.

  90. Jim Duenisng

    Which “Fair Tax” proposal is being discussed?

    All the ones I have heard of include some type of IRS organization to record how much money everyone makes so that “prebates” can be sent to a certain number of voting Americans to offset the inherently regressive nature of a national sales tax on the necessities of living.

    I still prefer the old constitutional way. Back before the IRS and the “Federal Reserve” were levied directly against the American people, the states used to collect taxes and send the money to D.C.

    I’d rather my NV government skim off the top of the casinos than take the wages directly from the workers check or have a tax that forces some mothers to choose between putting back formula or baby food at the checkout counter.

    Also, since the Supreme Court has rightly found that the power to tax is the power to destroy, I’d rather it not be exercised by Congress and the President.

    Return the purse strings to the people through the states.

  91. Morey

    Capozzi, you poor bastard, you’re ceaselessly haunted by those same five thoughts:
    1. Susan doesn’t love me
    2. I won’t hold high any banner
    3. Rothbard abortion quote
    4. Private nukes
    5. I’m a TAALIST!

  92. General-Secretary Root

    Determined to turn the Libertarian Party into a mindless — and long-winded — Republican infomercial, it’s not entirely surprising that Wayne Allyn Root is interested in becoming both national chair and the party’s 2012 presidential nominee.

    Hardly a marquis tactician, his ego apparently knows no bounds. While most minor parties have historically eschewed such bald-faced grabs for power, Root’s desire to personally lead the LP and possibly dictate, or at least influence, its choice of a presidential nominee in 2012 is nothing new in American politics.

    Beginning with labor leader William Z. Foster in 1924, the Communist Party USA routinely nominated its general secretary — the equivalent of the LP’s national chair, but usually someone much smarter and possessing considerably more political experience and skill than a Karl Rove-loving, first-rate huckster like Root — for the presidency.

    An organizer of the 1919 nationwide steel strike, Foster headed his party’s ticket in three consecutive presidential elections between 1924 and 1932. General-Secretary Earl Browder, the self-educated Kansan and unapologetic Stalinist who wanted to “Americanize” the CP-USA, ran for president twice during the latter part of the Great Depression and as recently as 1984 the late Gus Hall, the party’s longtime general secretary waging his fourth and final campaign for the presidency, carried the Communist Party’s tattered red banner against Fritz Mondale and Root’s hero, Ronald Reagan.

    In their heyday, the Socialist, Farmer-Labor, Prohibition, Populist and Progressive parties never seriously considered nominating their national chairmen for the presidency. By the same token, their best known candidates — including Eugene Debs, Norman Thomas, Thomas E. Watson and Teddy Roosevelt — as well as their lesser-known candidates, never aspired to the chairmanship of their respective parties, even when begged by the party’s rank-and-file.

    Unlike the sickeningly ambitious Las Vegas handicapper, they realized that holding such a lofty position within their own parties presented a possible, if not probable, conflict of interest. Debs, in particular, admirably held himself aloof from internal Socialist Party affairs throughout his life, regularly refusing to even participate in his party’s quadrennial national nominating conventions — conventions, incidentally, that nominated him for the nation’s highest office on five occasions.

    While Root’s behavior is hardly surprising, it’s rather ironic that a self-described “free-market” advocate is repeating a tactic historically rejected by most of the country’s third parties, yet tried time and again by the discredited Communists.

    “The Conscience of a Libertarian: Empowering the Citizen Revolution with God, Guns, Gambling & the Gullible.”

  93. Gene Trosper

    @16

    Hey, it takes a fair amount of effort to trample on our rights and steal our incomes.

  94. Robert Capozzi

    Morey, how nice that you’re paying attention to my work.

    You missed at least one: my Rodney King/Can we all just get along? theme.

    And Nonarchy Pods, my solution for the personal secession conundrum.

    Also, I hear Susan DOES love me now 😉 She’s just playing coy.

    Technically, and on some levels, btw, Rothbard and Rand were correct: Fetuses DO attach themsselves to the uterus, making them in some sense “parasites.” I just find it analytically loopy and offputting, don’t you?

  95. Mik Robertson

    @105, “…the states used to collect taxes and send the money to D.C.”

    That system under the Articles of Confederation was fine, although DC was not the recipient. The problem seemed to be that all of the states except Pennsylvania wanted to pay off their own war debts first, the selfish bastards. That meant Alexander Hamilton and his buddies who loaned money to the continental congress for the revolution would have to wait.

    That wouldn’t do, so what was needed was a new constitution giving the federal government more power. Hamilton pushed hard, got the new document and the war bonds were paid off shortly thereafter.

    That’s what the chair should do, work behind the scenes to reach the goal, like Hamilton. The cheerleader person in the spotlight would be the president. Wayne Root should decide which one he wants to be. He seems more suited to the spotlight than behind the scenes.

  96. libertariangirl

    Jim Duensing says Root , Cory and others all conspired against him to make him look bad with Nevada during the Barr campaign cuz he is just that important .

    Of course he would never confront them and only says things behind their backs . That is one of the reasons he is no longer on the NVLP excomm.
    your a hater with no substance to back it up .

  97. libertariangirl

    115 RESPONSES SO FAR ?
    1Brian Holtz // Apr 26, 2009 at 1:17 am

    Root would be better advised to advocate a Green Tax Shift rather than the Fair Tax — especially since Root says he favors “sin taxes”. A true “sin tax” would only tax actual aggression — polluting, depleting, congesting, or monopolizing the commons — rather than taxing innocent personal recreation.

    A balanced Left/Right appeal could be built on a combination of Green Tax Shift and either the Liberty Amendment or the Federalism Amendment.

    2Thane Eichenauer // Apr 26, 2009 at 1:19 am

    “he has changed his mind and now supports the Fair Tax” – my response is either yawn or ick.

    http://mises.org/tag/Fair%20Tax

    3Chuck Moulton // Apr 26, 2009 at 1:54 am

    I like Wayne, but I won’t vote for anyone for LNC Chair who hasn’t served a term on the LNC before.

    4Erik Geib // Apr 26, 2009 at 3:19 am

    Please tell me there is a better alternative emerging for this position. Anyone else announced in the running thus far?

    5Catholic Trotskyist // Apr 26, 2009 at 4:28 am

    Is this the position that Redpath has now?

    His immigration plan is creative, but won’t work.

    6Libertarian Joseph // Apr 26, 2009 at 5:22 am

    #1

    “Root would be better advised to advocate a Green Tax Shift rather than the Fair Tax”

    Um, what about no taxes? Neither the fairtax nor flat tax are any better.

    7fairmark // Apr 26, 2009 at 8:15 am

    I love the FairTax. Go Wayne!

    8Beth // Apr 26, 2009 at 8:15 am

    Chuck –
    Does that mean that you will run for chair?

    Your advocacy for transparency and fairness would make you my pick.

    9George Phillies // Apr 26, 2009 at 8:35 am

    There are suggestions that Region 6 Alternate Jake Porter is considering running for Chair.

    Wayne Root did do something for the Party–he handed the 2008 nomination to Bob Barr.

    Given the performance of the LNC over the past decade, and the level of debate and focus on issues shown by the LNC on the LNC-discuss list, perhaps one might propose that LNC membership should be viewed as grounds for profound suspicion of unfitness to serve.

    10Libertarian Joseph // Apr 26, 2009 at 8:36 am

    #7

    the fairtax will create an opening for a black market in everything. ha. agorism FTW!

    11NewFederalist // Apr 26, 2009 at 8:48 am

    He is just soooo difficult to like. He comes off as a huckster even when he is saying good things. Perhaps Billy Mays…?

    12Fred Ralston // Apr 26, 2009 at 8:54 am

    Unfortunately, this is not the type of personality that would bring me pack to the Party. Last year’s check was the last they will get from me in the foreseeable future.

    13Brian Holtz // Apr 26, 2009 at 9:28 am

    Wayne adds: “I’ve decided to run for LP Chairman assuming Bill Redpath does not run for re-election. But my decision is dependent on that decision by Bill. In the heat of moment yesterday I did not mention that second part.”

    14libertariangirl // Apr 26, 2009 at 9:56 am

    Ih dont like fair tax either, and there are a cpl other places Wayne could clean up his message to acheive broader support. Im going to write him with my suggestions , he is very open to constructive criticism.

    Im not sure where I stand on this one , but I like the idea of getting more attention in Nevada via Wayne anyway we can .

    15Libertarian Joseph // Apr 26, 2009 at 10:05 am

    the best thing would be to eliminate the federal income tax. didn’t y’all read the mises article on this topic? http://mises.org/story/3389

    is it viable? yeah. we don’t even use taxs to “pay our bills,” we use inflation to pay for just about everything, so what difference does it make? If cutting taxes INCREASES revenue, then how much revenue would eliminating the federal income tax create? loads!

    If you use the reaganesque language that “tax cuts increase revenue” then you just follow that to its logical end and eliminate the entire thing. I bet the workers would be happy.

    Yeah, Reagan sucked. I’m not a fan.

    That’s the only tax system I’m prepared to accept. No system

    16Libertarian Joseph // Apr 26, 2009 at 10:06 am

    People in government need to go out and find REAL jobs! lazy bastards

    17PTK // Apr 26, 2009 at 10:10 am

    Isn’t Root running for president right now, or is that just a draft movement?

    18Steven R Linnabary // Apr 26, 2009 at 10:33 am

    Root has a propensity for getting a lot of media attention, which could be good for the LP. Especially if the LP continues to water down it’s platform.

    And there is at least some merit in the idea of the LP candidate also being the party chair, if there are no other Presidential candidates. But there are other candidates.

    I would have just as much of a problem if Tom Knapp were to decide to seek to be the chair of the LP.

    And Tom, IMHO, has much better libertarian credentials. At least Tom never proposed citizenship for Osama bin Laden “offering instant citizenship to any immigrant willing to invest $250,000 in an American home”.

    PEACE

    19Michael H. Wilson // Apr 26, 2009 at 10:45 am

    Did Root specify any cuts in spending?

    20Susan Hogarth // Apr 26, 2009 at 11:10 am

    But my decision is dependent on that decision by Bill.

    Poor Redpath.

    21Susan Hogarth // Apr 26, 2009 at 11:13 am

    Agree with Chuck that the Chair – except in extraordinary circumstances – should have served on the board before. Also think this applies to Vice-Chair, which was one of the less important reasons I was so irked that the Convention replaced Chuck with Jingozian. Jingozian ought to have run for an at-large seat.

    Water under the bridge….

    22Andy // Apr 26, 2009 at 11:22 am

    I won’t support any candidate who supports the Fair Tax fraud. The Fair Tax is not an incremental step towards liberty, it is a Trojan Horse issue.

    23Andy // Apr 26, 2009 at 11:23 am

    This party really needs some better candidates for Chair in 2010 and for President in 2012.

    24HumbleTravis // Apr 26, 2009 at 11:42 am

    The FairTax is truly awful but it has a built-in following and its promoters have appropriated much of the anti-IRS rhetoric of the 1980s-1990s. Since the rest of the tax critics are splintered or not as visible, the FairTax appears to be a “movement” rather than just another piece of bad policy.

    25Libertarian Joseph // Apr 26, 2009 at 11:50 am

    So? It still sucks. No involuntary tax is justified

    26Libertarian Joseph // Apr 26, 2009 at 11:58 am

    Will I buy a tv for $100 from a street dealer or in the store for $130? That’s one of the main fallacies of the faitax. It will create a HUGE black market.

    27Susan Hogarth // Apr 26, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    That’s one of the main fallacies of the faitax. It will create a HUGE black market.

    Hell, that’s the only good aspect of it

    28Andy // Apr 26, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    “Susan Hogarth // Apr 26, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    ‘That’s one of the main fallacies of the faitax. It will create a HUGE black market.’

    Hell, that’s the only good aspect of it.”

    The Fair Tax will be more difficult to avoid than the income tax, which is one of the bad aspects of it.

    29Thomas L. Knapp // Apr 26, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    Steven,

    Thanks for the credentials ego boost — but I’m sure I’m not needed to run for chair. I expect one or more worthy candidates to step forward for that duty.

    I’d encourage Libertarians to evaluate Mr. Root’s prospective candidacy for chair less on the basis of political issues positions and more on the basis of his past performance as a corporate CEO, which I think is more germane to the position.

    Regards,
    Tom Knapp

    30Mike Theodore // Apr 26, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    “I’ve decided to run for LP Chairman assuming Bill Redpath does not run for re-election. But my decision is dependent on that decision by Bill. In the heat of moment yesterday I did not mention that second part.”

    I’m too pooped to say anything that holds the illusion of being insightful, so how about: The line it is drawn, the curse it is cast, the slow one now will later be fast, as the present now will later be past.

    He’s stuck himself with Redpath. So I can proudly say that in 2010, let’s through out the Redpath/Root faction that ran the party into the mud.

    31Michael Seebeck // Apr 26, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    “I’ll run for Chair id Redpath doesn’t”.

    May I have some clippers for that hedge?

    32a different paul // Apr 26, 2009 at 2:58 pm

    I never heard of the guy and don’t know anything good or bad about him, but am I correct in my impression the biggest complaint against Wayne Root is that he doesn’t advocate an end to all taxes?

    33MattSwartz // Apr 26, 2009 at 3:41 pm

    I never heard of the guy and don’t know anything good or bad about him, but am I correct in my impression the biggest complaint against Wayne Root is that he doesn’t advocate an end to all taxes?

    Oddly, that’s what the discussion here is focused exclusively on, but his biggest problem is his neo-con foreign policy leanings.

    http://www.dailypaul.com/node/50904

    Also, some of his business dealings in the past don’t pass the “smell test”.

    http://forum.sbrforum.com/players-talk/2303-i-worked-wayne-root-let-me-tell-you-about.html

    http://knappster.blogspot.com/2008/02/down-and-dirty-on-wayne-root.html

    34Thomas L. Knapp // Apr 26, 2009 at 4:01 pm

    adp,

    You write:

    “am I correct in my impression the biggest complaint against Wayne Root is that he doesn’t advocate an end to all taxes?”

    No.

    For any candidate, there are likely any number of complaints, from various parties.

    Up to this point, the complaints I’ve heard (and in some cases made) about Wayne Root have hardly ever centered on his views on taxes.

    35Jeremy Young // Apr 26, 2009 at 4:45 pm

    Why isn’t George Phillies running for Chair again?

    36Michael Seebeck // Apr 26, 2009 at 5:18 pm

    My biggest complaint about Root is that he comes across like a hyperactive used-car salesman. He’s coming around the issues, but his presentation is overwhelming and he needs to tone it down a little, like to a dull roar.

    37fairmark // Apr 26, 2009 at 5:39 pm

    texas has the best state economy in the country. why? sales tax only baby, sales tax!

    38Susan Hogarth // Apr 26, 2009 at 6:13 pm

    texas has the best state economy in the country. why? sales tax only baby, sales tax!

    Think how much better it would be with NO tax!

    I mean, do you wake up in the morning saying “Give me aches, of Lord, because I don’t want aches and pains!”?

    39G.E. // Apr 26, 2009 at 6:16 pm

    “The Fair Tax will be more difficult to avoid than the income tax, which is one of the bad aspects of it.”

    DO. NOT. AGREE

    40G.E. // Apr 26, 2009 at 6:22 pm

    Accidentily hit SUBMIT.

    Income tax is impossible, nearly impossible to avoid unless you’re self-employed. EVERYONE would be cutting out on the FraudTax. I still think it’s even worse than the income tax; but that is one “good” aspect of it, Andy.

    WAR is a Redpathian stooge. He’s just what the party deserves.

    41G.E. // Apr 26, 2009 at 6:24 pm

    Texas has a “great” economy because it taxes every single economic transaction. Wonderful. Why not let all states decide what kind of taxation works best, rather than having it imposed by the federal leviathan? I’m voting for none at all.

    42Robert Capozzi // Apr 26, 2009 at 6:31 pm

    andy: The Fair Tax will be more difficult to avoid than the income tax, which is one of the bad aspects of it.

    me: while I am NOT a Fair Tax advocate, I find this logic tortured. For me, SPENDING is the tax, the way revenue is raised is a secondary consideration. Those who pay taxes are suckers, we Ls want some to be able to avoid taxes while others pay.

    I’d much prefer to see us Ls create a situation wher there’s taxpayer solidarity, wanting everyone’s taxes to decline. Atomism is no way to roll back the State. And a porous tax base has NOT led to lower taxes; in fact, the opposite is true. The tax and spend burden has INCREASED when the tax base has become become riddled with preferences.

    Poor strategyIMO.

    43G.E. // Apr 26, 2009 at 9:37 pm

    F that Capozzi, solidarity of NON-taxpayers is a better front. Of course, that would mean the withering way of your beloved coercive state, so it’s a no-go for you.

    44John Famularo // Apr 27, 2009 at 7:56 am

    Susan Hogarth wrote,
    “Think how much better it would be with NO tax!”

    It would be a lot better, but the LP has to show how it can be accomplished while still securing individual rights. User fees and insurance. The general public is never going to embrace anarchy. At least with user fees and premiums for protection services based on the value of property, the indivisdual could choose the level of protection he wants. The rich would pay more than the poor and the litigious would pay more than the non-litigious et cetera. People should also have the option of donating services in lieu of payment.

    In any event the LP would have to tailor its pitch to the common man. The LP could start by organizing itself in such a fashion. I know that someone like George Phillies knows more about FEC filings than any consultant the LPHQ can hire. I know there are dozens if not hundreds of LP members who could maintain LP,org for free and do a lot netter job. Do you know what the LPHQ spends on LP.org maintenance?
    What about giving volunteers membership credit for signatures gathered?

    Too difficult and too much coordination required? Yes I know. That is the same excuse the government gives.

    45mscrib // Apr 27, 2009 at 9:18 am

    The cascading sales tax (on transactions at all stages of production and distribution) in Texas is ridiculous from any reasonable economic perspective. People in the statehouse have thus far been too stupid to realize this. Not a model to emulate.

    46mscrib // Apr 27, 2009 at 9:28 am

    The administrative and compliance costs associated with the “FairTax” are far lower than the current tax system. It’s far easier to force businesses to pay taxes than individuals. Also, moving towards taxing consumption will pretty much force states to abandon their individual income taxes since they freeride off of the IRS’ tax compliance efforts. The tax industry (e.g. H&R Block, tax attorneys, etc.) will be put out of business overnight.

    47Erik Geib // Apr 27, 2009 at 9:30 am

    Set aside his stance on taxes for a minute (because we can all bicker about this relentlessly). Root shouldn’t be the new chair because a lot of what he does reeks of ambitious attention-mongering. Root’s very aware of how great he thinks he is, and would like everyone else to think the same. To that end, I couldn’t comment on how ‘genuine’ his views are, because they very well could be quite genuine. The problem, in my eyes, is that they don’t appear so. He reminds me of Glenn Beck with a couple years head-start… someone very aware of the public’s gradual shifting towards a more libertarian philosophy, but also someone ambitious enough that they want to be the leader of such people with their own ‘brand’ of thought.

    Ugh.

    48Susan Hogarth // Apr 27, 2009 at 10:09 am

    [No tax] would be a lot better, but the LP has to show how it can be accomplished while still securing individual rights.

    I agree. My point was simply that pushing a sales tax (as it seemed to me that the person I was replying to was doing) as a way to improve the economy is like pushing the common cold as a way to improve your health (’hey! it beats cancer, baby!’).

    User fees and insurance.

    That’s one possibility, yes. One among several, or many.

    The general public is never going to embrace anarchy.

    I do not have your confidence in predicting the future of human political thought.

    At least with user fees and premiums for protection services based on the value of property, the indivisdual could choose the level of protection he wants….

    I’m not sure, but it seems like you think we disagree on this. I am happy to assure you that we do not.

    In any event the LP would have to tailor its pitch to the common man.

    Which should not be difficult, as we *are* all common men (and women).

    BIG SHIFT IN SUBJECT HERE – to LP GOVERNANCE.

    The LP could start by organizing itself in such a fashion.

    This idea of molding a political party in what you perceive to be the image of the voluntary society is interesting, but I think there are some problems with it. First, political parties (let’s just say ‘third parties’) ARE voluntary associations already. But on a deeper level, as an organization we can only possibly present one model of voluntarism, while we have to acknowledge that freedom will almost certainly consist of several or many such types of voluntarism working side-by-side.

    I know that someone like George Phillies knows more about FEC filings than any consultant the LPHQ can hire. I know there are dozens if not hundreds of LP members who could maintain LP,org for free and do a lot netter job. Do you know what the LPHQ spends on LP.org maintenance?

    I think more volunteer involvement is a Good Thing, in general, but I don’t see it particularly as any sort of political statement.

    But I don’t see any particular problem with paying professionals for their time and effort rather than volunteers. I’ve been a part of organizations which were all-volunteer, all-professional, and mixed (as the LP is). The mixed model is potentially the most rewarding, but it does take some shuffling.

    What about giving volunteers membership credit for signatures gathered?

    I absolutely think we should work out such a system. Perhaps you’d like to start drafting some sort of plan which could be presented to the National Committee or various state committees to accomplish this?

    Too difficult and too much coordination required? Yes I know. That is the same excuse the government gives.

    Why don’t you wait until someone disagrees with you *before* you let yourself get irked by it?

    Consider that many more Libertarians have some spare cash than spare time. Why should we hobble ourselves to an all-volunteer model when people are willing to pay professionals?

    Suppose we had an all-volunteer model. Suppose someone wanted to pay 70K per year to hire someone at 35K (plus benefits) to gather signatures. Should we refuse? Suppose someone committed to raising 70K per year from Libertarians to pay such a person – should we refuse?

    49Susan Hogarth // Apr 27, 2009 at 10:13 am

    The administrative and compliance costs associated with the “FairTax” are far lower than the current tax system. It’s far easier to force businesses to pay taxes than individuals.

    This is a Big Negative (one among many) of the national sales tax proposal(s). The ‘easier’ it becomes for government to ‘force’ people and businesses to give up money, the worse it is for freedom.

    Sadly, the income tax is all-too-easy for the feds, anyway, so it’s probably pretty much a wash, there, anyway.

    50Erik Geib // Apr 27, 2009 at 10:22 am

    People seem to forget that there’s little stopping the government (in our current state) from switching to the ‘fair tax’ and then instituting an income tax anyway. Nor is there much to stop the states from dramatically raising their state income tax levels if federal income tax levels were lowered.

    51robert capozzi // Apr 27, 2009 at 10:53 am

    ge, ok, I’m open to your non-taxpayer solidarity strategy. what percentage of the pop is off the grid? 1 or 2 %? Paint your picture of how a tiny percentage of the pop brings about no State?

    also, you seem to forget I’m a TAAAList. Pro whithering, dude.

    52robert capozzi // Apr 27, 2009 at 10:57 am

    eric, I doubt anyone “forgets” the insidious nature of creeping statism. we can take our best shot and maintain eternal vigilance.

    what’s the alternative?

    53Erik Geib // Apr 27, 2009 at 11:09 am

    The alternative would be a steadfast opposition to the income tax, while offering up solutions as to how and where the free market can better serve us than the heavy hand of government. Go forward best with the summation of Bastiat, “Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all.”

    I agree that we could offer up better tax ideas from a minarchist perspective, but the ‘fair tax’ certainly isn’t one of them. As I’ve said before, I don’t think it’s beyond the government to realize “ooo, we can ‘fair tax’ all and still ‘income tax’ half too!” I think implementing the ‘fair tax’ as an ‘alternative’ will undoubtedly lead to increased taxation (by the combination of which I speak), not equal or similar ‘fairer’ taxation as its proponents suggest. It just opens another door for the federal government to suppress the voice of liberty.

    54John Famularo // Apr 27, 2009 at 11:19 am

    “drafting some sort of plan which could be presented to the National Committee or various state committees to accomplish this?”

    I have and I would, if the LP ever decides on exactly what it is trying to achieve. A clear, concise, unambiguous, measurable, achievable mission. (not a laundry list of “purposes”).

    “Suppose someone wanted to pay 70K per year to hire someone at 35K (plus benefits) to gather signatures. Should we refuse?”

    Yes.

    ” Suppose someone committed to raising 70K per year from Libertarians to pay such a person – should we refuse?”

    Yes.

    As I stated before volunteerism is more useful than fund raising, and most of the internal problems in the LP over the last 35 years have something ti do with paid staff. If there was a archive of actual LP history, people could see this for themselves. Why does yhay not exist?

    The LP membership is always living in the present with no guidance of experience of the past.

    55mscrib // Apr 27, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    This is a Big Negative (one among many) of the national sales tax proposal(s). The ‘easier’ it becomes for government to ‘force’ people and businesses to give up money, the worse it is for freedom.

    Presumably, taxes are going to exist as long as government exists. A consumption tax is far more efficient (less excess burden) than a tax on income (especially when compared to the U.S.’s current system of individual income + corporate income + capital gains + federal excise + etc… taxes). If we can raise the same amount of revenue with fewer economic distortions and lower administrative and compliance costs, I’m all for it.

    56Aaron Russo Jew // Apr 27, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    libertariangirl:

    Don’t be played for a fool. You and that crazy psycopath that you elected chair in Nevada may like Bob Barr and Wayne Allyn Root, but he is the wrong person to lead anything.

    W.A.R is pathetic enough to be led around on a leash by that effeminite Zionazi that spends his time as Treasurer attacking Libertarian members of the Libertarian Naitonal Committee.

    W.A.R. supports radical Jewish extremism from the tyrannical state of Israel. It is time for him to go back to the Republican party like the neocon really wants.

    I liked Nevada better when it was strong enough to stand up to neocons like Barr / Root.

    Me__ Nevada wanted anyone but you or one of your pathetic cronies like Jim burns .
    Your the one who told me to calm down on Root some time ago . and now youve flip flopped again when you realize Nevada wants to wortk with Wayne , becus Nevada doesnt want to work with you.

    Wayne has earned our support period and we are glad you wont be around to embarrass us further with the rest of the party.

  98. Aaron Russo Jew

    Maybe Aaron Starr should finally get to be chair. He has waited his turn patiently. And, he’s done most of his work behind the scenes. And, he’s a government conspiracy theorist and an unquestioning supporter of Israeli foreign policy. Not too worried about Saudi either. Didn’t they attack us on 9/11 Aaron? Wayne? Hey anybody see that plane over Manhattan?

    But, back to the LNC, perhaps its best for the sound operation of a political party for there to be some measure of transparency in the operation and activities of our leaders.

    Because perhaps those who do most of their best work behind the scenes – like those who cower in caves – shouldn’t be leading the Libertarian Party – or the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.

  99. Jim Duenisng

    Hey Deb,

    I don’t hate anyone. I too was once wrong and stupid. Once.

    All I said about Shane Cory was that I wish he had been man enough to participate in our bet about his crazy belief in governmental conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 when he was a high ranking official with the Barr campaign.

    I don’t think Root conspired with anyone. I think he likes his ego being stroked by people who are using him. You probably don’t know what I mean. 🙂

    I don’t know how many pseudonyms I’ll use Deb. The founding fathers had several. It was how they got around certain forms of censorship back in the day.

    Aaron Russo Jew is a pseudonym designed to be a brash supporter of a peaceful foreign policy, not one where the world’s strongest military gets led around by the nose by Israel. And we have what Pat Buchannan once called an Amen Corner in Congress rubberstamping wars. We don’t need our representatives voting for wars on made up evidence and television media blitzes, like the one in Iraq. I use it, because like Aaron, I’m a Jew, but that doesn’t mean American foreign policy should be directed by the political state of Israel to acheive what Cheney calls American Hegemony over the Middle East.

    As for Barr, I think what he did to Ron Paul was designed to drive a wedge between the Revolution and the LP. You can read my artice about it here.

    http://www.JimDuensing.com

    You once told me you’d quit the party if that drug warrior neocon “former” member of the cia, “former” Republican party attack dog became the LP’s nominee for chair.

    Now look at you.

    Come on Deb, wise up.

    And Shane Cory did argue that

  100. Jim Duensing

    Hey Deb,

    I don’t hate anyone. I too was once wrong and stupid. Once.

    All I said about Shane Cory was that I wish he had been man enough to participate in our bet about his crazy belief in governmental conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 when he was a high ranking official with the Barr campaign.

    I don’t think Root conspired with anyone. I think he likes his ego being stroked by people who are using him. You probably don’t know what I mean. 🙂

    I don’t know how many pseudonyms I’ll use Deb aka libertariangirl. The founding fathers had several. It was how they got around certain forms of tyranny back in the day.

    Aaron Russo Jew is a pseudonym designed to be a brash supporter of a peaceful foreign policy, not one where the world’s strongest military gets led around by the nose to start wars in foreign countries with people who’s land has oil underneath it. And who opposes what Pat Buchannan once called an Amen Corner in Congress rubberstamping wars. We don’t need our representatives voting for wars on made up evidence and television media blitzes, like the one in Iraq.

    I use this pseudonym to highlight that like Aaron, I’m a Jew, but that doesn’t mean I think American foreign policy should be directed by the political state of Israel to acheive what Cheney calls American Hegemony over the Middle East.

    As for Barr, I think what he did to Ron Paul was designed to drive a wedge between the Revolution and the LP. You can read my artice about it here.

    http://www.JimDuensing.com

    You once told me you’d quit the party if that drug warrior neocon “former” member of the cia, “former” Republican party attack dog became the LP’s nominee for chair.

    Now look at you.

    Come on Deb, wise up.

    I was willing to sit down and have drinks with the guy who railroaded Genarlow Wilson, who championed DOMA, and who actually wrote parts of some secret legislation that Ron Paul couldn’t get a copy of. Remember the Patriot Act?

    But, he didn’t seem as willing to talk to me. For instance, he always declined to drink a Guinness with me.

    But I never warmed up to Barr’s charm, because he never convinced me he was anything other than a former member of America’s KGB with his own political agenda. He too wants to continue these wars around the globe.

    The world’s last superpower is strong enough to extend an olive branch – not a nuclear tipped warhead – to the rest of the peoples of our small planet. I unapologetically support a Libertarian Party which stands for peace, foreign and domestic.

    In liberty, with eternal vigilance,

    Jim Duensing

  101. sunshinebatman

    FYI Duensing –

    Your guru, the DoD/DoE COINTELPRO operative Steve Jones, has a trail of dead bodies behind him Bob Barr couldn’t even dream of.

    Hope this helps.

  102. Thomas M. Sipos

    I learned earlier today that the national LP is sending robocalls to lapsed members asking them to renew.

    The robocalls are read by Root, during which he promotes his upcoming book.

    Apparently, LP resources are being used to publicize Root’s book.

    I said back in 2007, Root was looking to use the LP (and its resources) to boost his own personal fame and career.

    I’m glad I’m no longer a chump who pays money to the LNC.

  103. Thomas L. Knapp

    Quoth Thomas Sipos:

    “Apparently, LP resources are being used to publicize Root’s book.”

    Nothing new about that. In 1998, LPHQ purchares, and gave out as a new member “premium gift,” Harry Browne’s 1996 campaign book even though Harry was already clearly actively seeking the 2000 nomination as well.

    Then-chair David Bergland’s response to LP members who objected was a letter including, if I recall, the phrase “sit down and shut up.”

  104. Robert Capozzi

    tk, yes, cross-promoting former top-of-the-ticket figures like Barr and Root seems appropriate, even predictable. these are people of high profile, and trading on their brand names makes sense on a lot of levels.

    but, yes, some here who object to folks like Barr and Root react with conspiracy theories, some of which might sound like favoritism, esp. in the case of Root, who seeks additional positions in the party going forward.

    promoting Root and membership renewal seems on balance appropriate to me. at some point, it will no longer be appropriate, as we get closer to the 2010 convention, if Root remains a candidate for chair.

  105. Robert Capozzi

    jd: But I never warmed up to Barr’s charm, because he never convinced me he was anything other than a former member of America’s KGB with his own political agenda.

    me: this assertion begs the question: what was Barr’s hidden political agenda? and, if there was one, please make the case, without supposition.

    I assume as he reports that Barr has had a sincere “conversion,” although he may on some issues still lean to old thought patterns. We’ve seen this play out with his (painful, for me) evolving position on DOMA, which was weak during the campaign, although he seems to be moving in a peaceful direction on that one, post-campaign.

    I suspect all Ls do this sort of thing. Yes?

    I, for ex., occasionally initially react to an issue from my old Randian/Rothbardian perspective. As I reflect on the issue with my TAAAList sensibilities, I often conclude that my knee-jerk reaction was sub-optimal, all things considered.

    It seems unwise to expect any L to have COMPLETELY banished their former ideology from their circuits.

  106. Robert Capozzi

    ts: Root is like a Martian who’s just landed on Earth. Only instead of saying, “Take me to your Leader,” everywhere Root goes, he says, “I want to be your Leader. Hardly a libertarian attitude.

    me: my feedback is there is no “libertarian attitude” re: leadership. I admit to having detected a bizarre thread of thought among SOME Ls that is reflexively anti-leadership.

    What a tremendous set up for failure that view is. My observation is that humans are wired to follow leaders, people who lead with their ideas, abilities, charisma, and so forth.

    IMO, there’s nothing “wrong” with this tendency, per se. Yes, as people who wish to see the State minimized, most Ls are critical of historical political leaders because they enhanced State power. I’m among them.

    Ls and L-ism has had its leaders, too. Rand was a leader. She forged a thought system that still holds a lot of sway on a lot of Ls. So did (and does) Rothbard.

    To be leaderless — without thought influencers — has an appealling sound to it. Some seem to have taken that notion quite literally, tearing down any L who assumes a leadership role.

    I’d submit that’s contra-indicated IF one really wants to roll back the State. We’re far more likely to be effective if we have leaders who advance the cause of liberty with strong communications and organization skills.

    Of course, blindly following our leaders is also contra-indicated.

    Due respect might be a better model. And a dash of Rodney King-ism.

  107. Michael H. Wilson

    @ 123 RP Writes: “… there is no “libertarian attitude” re: leadership.”

    MW replies; There needs to be! We have to develop an attitude that we are going to get the word out as to what the LP is about, not just bashing the other guy! That means infomative and timely news releases, an up to date website, adequate literature to handout, internal education on the issues, candidate development, etc.

    We have to set goals for increasing membership and raising funds. We have to increase volunteer participation. And I could go on, but I have to go to work.

  108. Jim Duensing

    “sunshinebatman” talk about a pseudonym 🙂

    Who is Steve Jones? And how many more dead bodies are in his wake than the LP’s last Presidential candidate? How many are you suggesting Barr personally killed? Quite a claim! And WTF are you talking about?

  109. Jim Duensing

    Capozzi:

    I suspect from his actions that one of Barr’s biggest agendas with the 08 campaign was to drive a wedge between the LP and the Ron Paul Revolution.

    http://www.jimduensing.com/bob-barr-must-apologize-to-ron-paul.html

    He would also never directly answer any question about why Larry Silverstein’s three steel building’s were the only ones in world history to implode because of fire. Maybe he had private information from Marvin at Securacom, but he never shared it with me.

    The bigger question is what prompted Barr’s presto / change-o political deathbed conversion? He went from drafting the secret legislation of the patriot act to being a strong proponent of personal privacy. He needed a salesman of Root’s background to help him sell that bridge.

  110. Robert Capozzi

    jd, hmm, perhaps we need to discuss the meaning of the word “agenda.” Are you saying the BB got in the race with the intent to diss RP?

    I find that far-fetched, if so. The RP thing wasn’t handled well, I’d agree, although I thought there was some dissing on both sides.

    More important, BB has already explained his conversion. In his youth, he was a seeker, trying on several ideological influences, including Rand. He became a conservative R. Then he lost his re-election due in part to an L candidate in his race. That got him researching L-ism, and he’s arrived where he is.

    There’s a long record on his role in the Patriot Act, and I find his narrative plausible…tried to tweak. But, all this is pre- his conversion to L-ism.

    Barr is not the only L who’s not a Truther. I’m not, and I know of few Truthers in the LP.

    Are you REALLY saying that Barr is part of some grand conspiracy and cover up? Even if that were true, why run for Prez as an L? THAT would be one strange agenda. I spose anything’s possible, but that dog don’t hunt for me.

  111. a different paul

    I have to laugh – does anyone think the LP is big enough to warrant anyone conspiring against it?

  112. Erik Geib

    The conspiracy talk is weak.

    I don’t like Barr or Root at all, but I don’t link them to part of a conspiracy, particularly not of a Republican one.

    What I see in Barr and Root are a pair of ambitious opportunists who had no shot within the Republican Party. As a result, and as a reflection of their ego, they’ve latched on to libertarianism (like Glenn Beck supposedly has) because they realize that libertarian philosophy has been gaining some momentum. That being said, I don’t question whether or not they believe in libertarianism – only they could know that for sure. I tend to think people generally mean well but are misguided, and I think this is likely the case with Barr and Root as well. They’ve probably realized how sound of a theory libertarianism is (given that it’s a philosophy and not a smattering of opinions based on loosely-tied coalitions, like what the Repubs and Dems have), but I do question how much they fully grasp the philosophy. Many libertarians can likely attest to how long it took them to fully think through and *truly* grasp much of what they believe – how easy it was to at first accept the ideas of someone within the movement (be they Hayek, Friedman, Rothbard, Rand, Nock, etc.), but how only through thorough examination were their particular set of beliefs polished.

    My problem with Barr and Root is the way they portray themselves, the way it makes me feel, and the idea that a newcomer to the ideology might view them as the embodiment or representative of the movement. That idea makes me sick to my stomach, to be honest.

    It’s bad enough I had someone say to me the other day ago, “Libertarian? What, like Glenn Beck?” God forbid I have to hear someone say “Libertarian? What, like Wayne Root?”

    Ugh.

  113. Jim Duensing

    Capozzi,

    I’m not going to speculate on all of Barr’s motives for changing parties or for insulting Ron Paul. Speculation is what government conspiracy theorists do.

    Don’t believe me or any internet source. Here’s what the Washington Post reported about the Paul incident:

    “Barr, the Libertarian Party candidate for president, never showed for the unity event, instead having an aide hand out notices at the door announcing that he would be making a “major campaign announcement” at a rival news conference in the same place two hours later. His major announcement: that Ron Paul could get lost. ”

    Fool me once… etc. Read the whole thing here:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/10/AR2008091003463.html?hpid=topnews

    The LP is America’s Third Party. It is the most likely place for a political revolution to occur before the imposition of what Paul Revere called Law Martial.

    Do you think so little of yourself and your party that you consider it not even worth a takeover attempt?

    Do you really think the folks in the Republican party and Establishment Media who were doing everything they could to keep Paul from winning the Republican nomination never considered the possibility of him running third party?

    What’s the view like with your head beneath the sand?

  114. Robert Capozzi

    jd: Do you think so little of yourself and your party that you consider it not even worth a takeover attempt?

    bc: in my judgment, my party is too small to takeover, yes. I also believe my party could be quite significant. A key for that to happen would be a Rodney King inspired St. Louis Accord.

    jd: Do you really think the folks in the Republican party and Establishment Media who were doing everything they could to keep Paul from winning the Republican nomination never considered the possibility of him running third party?

    me: No. They mostly ignored RP is my assessment, because they didn’t see him as a “serious” candidate, ie, one who could win the nomination. The liberal-leaning media gave RP MORE coverage than his support-levels warranted, in part because they liked his anti-war positioning.

  115. libertariangirl

    Duensing your a liar and I can rove it . Back last year when you lost your mind we were planning a fundraising dinner for Barr?Root . Incidentally you were the volunteer coordinator for both and when I teased you about it you said we needed to mov on.

    I was advertising the dinner and asked yo at least 10 times if you had confirmed with them . You assured me you had , well 3 days before the dinner I see Barr?Root advertising one at Roots house . I contacted them tomsee what was up ad they all said , Root , Cory and Fergusen that they hadbt heard from you in weeks .
    Whe I confronted you , you siad they were all lying to make you look bad becaise they hate you and cosider you dangerous because of your 9-11 veiwes.
    ROFLMAO
    those are the facts a that was the last straw with the Nevada LP and you . if you try and spin this i have the emails saved including the one where you threaten me physically .

  116. libertariangirl

    and yes Jim you said Wayne lied about the dinner also , everyone lied about it , conspired against you , why?

    because your just that important and they had nothing but time right?

    you have a messiag complex . whyd you have to come poking around my favorite blog?

    and furthermore I never voted for Barr at convebtion but after he won the nomination I did my job as an LP excomm member and promoted our parties choice . period . this isnt the ‘what debbie’ wants or who’jim likes’ party , he was chosem fair and square . If he runs again , he will still get no votes from me at convention .

    Jim Duensing voted for Chuck fucking Baldwin , photographed his ballot with his phone and sent the picture to Root and Cory.

    je thought it was funny

    one more reason he gone frommthe LPNevada

  117. Woof!

    PROPERTY TAXES are the worst and most evil of all taxes. They have done more harm to the economy and our liberty than any other form of taxation. There is a natural constituency ready to work for their repeal in every state – property owners.

    Property owners have been robbed, regulated and reduced to the peasantry by the state. The only reason property taxes are the most evil and harmful taxes, but not the most hated, is that they are not collected by the IRS. But, property owners feel rightly abused. They will join the LP if we work for them.

    INCOME TAXES of all kinds are the most hated of all taxes because of the greedy, fascist, evil, destructive, coercive, brutal, aggression of the IRS.

    Millions of people will join us in an honest, sensible effort to repeal all taxes on income and property, if we have a sensible platform and reasonable, well funded campaigns with really professional fundraising, advertising and PR.

    *******************

    This would leave the government at all levels dependent on consumption taxes. A single tax that anyone could legally avoid up to 100%. We would then be in a position to chip away and gradually reduce this one remaining tax to zero.

    Of course, as wisely observed above:

    Michael Seebeck // Apr 27, 2009 at 1:51 pm

    “I believe in a Fair Tax.

    Of course, I also believe a fair tax rate is 0%….”

    *********************

    The fair tax, or any tax on consumption, is also evil. Libertarians should not support such a tax.

    We should, however, work to repeal the most evil and most damaging forms of taxation first, especially when these are also the most hated and most easily eliminated forms of taxation.

    Property taxes and Income Taxes are used to divide the public by encouraging the idea that taxes can be shifted so that others will pay. We will gain the most by uniting to ensure their repeal first. Then we can all unite to chip away at the remaining evil consumption tax.

    *******************

    LIBERTARIANS:

    We must work to repeal all taxes on INCOME and PROPERTY, first.

    We must work for massive cuts in the size of the state along with these repeal efforts.

    Then, when the statists have circled their wagons around a single, remaining tax on sales, we can work to systematically reduce the size of the state and the size of this tax, out in the sunshine, where nothing is hidden and everyone can see that less spending will mean lower taxes.

    **************

    When my land and property are taxed, I am never free.

    When my land and property are tax free, I can live free from taxation every minute of every day, when I do not earn money, invest or consume.

    When my land, property and income are tax free, I can live, work, save and invest, free from taxation every minute of every day, unless I go shopping.

    (Besides, the world is about 60 quadrillion dollars short of the private savings and investment needed to bring the population up to a decent sustainable lifestyle with jobs, housing, health care and education. But we already have far too much consumption.)

    Every one of us deserves to be free to live on our land in our own doghouses, work, save and invest – and pay no tax. I can catch a rabbit for dinner and be totally free.

    Woof!

  118. robert capozzi

    wes, perhaps I’m missing something, but this story mostly is talking about Rs asking Ls not to run, not getting “rid” of Ls.

    Is there more to the story?

  119. libertariangirl

    JD__Maybe Aaron Starr should finally get to be chair. He has waited his turn patiently. And, he’s done most of his work behind the scenes. And…

    me__ your right , its been Aarons plan all along .
    To join the LP some 30 years ago , and then slowly , slowly bide his time pretending to be an activist , until just the right time when he could spring his evil take-over plan . effin brillant!

    rofl

  120. Lidia Seebeck

    Woof@137, directed to Mike:

    Mike was trying to say that a fair tax rate would be a rate of zero percent. Of course, it may take a while to get there…

  121. Jim Duensing

    You shouldn’t have told me this was your favorite blog lil d. Now, I’ll have to visit more often 🙂

    Was Cory lying about the $4,000 he said you and Joe misplaced at the fundraiser? Or was he only lying about not being able to talk to me.

    The fundraiser at Liberace’s Piano room was planned for some time. The manager and I discussed it when I visited for dinner some weeks before. It was in his book already then.

    Cory was not happy with the venue, but I told him that Badnarik was able to raise 17,000 at a fundraiser that I MC’d there in the prior election. Certainly, I surmised, a candidate with Bob Barr’s credentials could raise at least that much in the same room.

    Turns out, he didn’t. Still don’t know the official Barr campaign totals from that event, but I think it was in the triple digits.

    Maybe Liberace’s ghost haunted the festivities, because he didn’t like the author of the bigoted DOMA, which your candidate championed, feastiong on the fine Italian cuisine in his famous Piano Room.

    As for the picture of my ballot:

    First, I only sent the picture to Cory as a joke. He sent it anywhere else it went. He may be lying about that too – or you may be mistaken again. Not sure which.

    Second, I vote for the candidate – not the party. If Ron Paul doesn’t have to vote for John McCain, then I don’t have to vote for Bob Barr.

    Third, I didnt’ like any of the candidates I was offered at my electronic voting machine so I voted on the endorsement of Ron Paul, hoping others would do the same and make some statement to the Establishment.

    Fourth, Paul Revere, would have kept voting till he got a paper receipt. Maybe next time.

    And, Deb, there’s no point in trying to argue whether you or Cory are a bigger liar. I give up on that one. That’s like asking who’s more evil, Cheney or Brezinski. Fortunately, you admitted in front of the current LPNV vice-chair that you lie to everyone. Want to see the videos on your favorite blog?

    Go back in your cage of a room, watch your prison shows, raise the neighborhoods’ cats, and smoke while you’re daughters yell at you.

    Stay out of politics little girl. You’re not ready for it.

    In liberty, with eternal vigilance,

    Jim Duensing

  122. Gene Trosper

    @143

    Stay out of politics little girl. You’re not ready for it.

    Neither are most Libertarians.

  123. Woof!

    Lidia Seebeck // Apr 29, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    “Woof@137, directed to Mike:

    Mike was trying to say that a fair tax rate would be a rate of zero percent. Of course, it may take a while to get there…”

    ****

    Yes. I know. And I said he was wise:

    “Of course, as wisely observed above:

    Michael Seebeck // Apr 27, 2009 at 1:51 pm

    “I believe in a Fair Tax.

    Of course, I also believe a fair tax rate is 0%….”

    *****

    See. I agree. A fair tax rate, and a fair “Fair Tax” rate, either or both, would be 0%.

    Woof!

  124. volvoice

    Jim and LG….I hate to see the obvious falling out that you guys have had. Both of you are two of my favorite Libertarians. According to the LPNV website Jim is still the Chair, is that not so?

  125. libertariangirl

    that is NOT true!
    Thankyou for your kind words . I still veiw Duensing as a personal friend , but working with him on the LPNV excomm had become impossible.

  126. Jim Duensing

    No. The new Executive Committee should have updated the website by now.

    Being chair of the NVLP since mid 06, and chair of the Libertarian State Leadership Alliance for 07-08 was enough for me.

    I have no plans to run for any party administrative posts in the near or distant future.

    Thankfully, now, it’s someone else’s job to herd 40 yeard old bratty children into an effective political machine.

    I wish them God’s speed.

    In liberty, with eternal vigilance,

    Jim Duensing

  127. libertariangirl

    by effective he means focusing on 9-11 truth only .

    How may times did you post to the candidates list last election offering advice and guidance?
    answer:: not once

  128. sunshinebatman

    Steve Jones was one of the Mormon terrorists behind 9/11. He later went on to brainwash about 80% of the troofers including, from what I could tell, Duensing’s operation.

    If Duensing is genuine in his cluelessness here and not just shilling for Area 51, it may indeed be the case that Steve Jones had sent some of his lesser minions to handle the LP troofers; as his own hands were full brainwashing Alex Jones, who of course is a far more influential force in politics than the LP.

  129. libertariangirl

    wheres Paulie and the tinfoil hats?

    I may have my issues with Jim but I can assure you
    HE IS NOBODYS SHILL! Nor has he been brainwashed by anyone concerning 9-11.

    you are obviously a kook designed to bring even kookier theorys designed to discredit real 9-11 truth.

  130. Jim Duensing

    How many times did the vice-chair lie to the chair’s face on behalf of the Treasurer / Congress 3 candidate on the night of the Congress 3 debate? Before admitting that the Congress 3 candidate had earlier told her that he secretly chose not to attend so the event would look bad.

    Then how many tantrums did she throw?

    The first question is at least a handful. The second question is at least 1, arguably 2.

    By effective political organization, I mean fighting the enemies of peace and freedom that are currently tyrannizing the country and waging unnecessary wars across the globe.

    It is an unfortunate fact that the MIC Ike warned us about is in control of both the Establishment Parties. There is one chance to avoid what Paul Revere called Law Martial. It is an effective political movement dedicated to

    1) a free market economy for individuals, not multi-national corporate greed

    2) a peaceful foreign policy, not what Jack Kennedy called a Pax Americana – before he was murdered

    3) a community based security system like the founding fathers had at Concord and Lexington, instead of a standing military imposing draconian Nazi-like measures

    Your boy Root, his handler Starr, and “former” CIA agent Bob Barr, are on the wrong side of all these issues.

  131. sunshinebatman

    So LG, you agree with Geo W Bush who said, “We must never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September 11.”

    We must only tolerate the milquetoast COINTELPRO conspiracy theories, right?

    You thermite-sniffers are no better than the flagwavers in the long run. 9/11 truth is dead; your ignorance and gullibility killed it.

    Why don’t you tell us again how sincere Wayne Allyn Root is?

  132. libertariangirl

    Im saying jim duensing isnt a flippin shill , nor is he brainwashed , nor is he insincere in his beliefs .
    you are a shill designed to circulate even more outrageous theorys designed to descredit real 9-11 truthers like Duensing and Libertarians for Truth

  133. faeriejems

    #154 You mean the conspirary theory about the 19 hijackers with box-cutters isn’t true???

  134. Michael Seebeck

    Dammit, when will folks learn?

    Don’t you people know what really happened on 9-11?

    Don’t you understand that the planes that hit the WTC did so because they were being pulled by invisible fishing line by NY taxicabs into the buildings, and that the strings became attached to the planes because the drunken Bush twins left their kites in the cabs after their dates told them to go fly them so they did, but the strings were still in their pockets while partying drunk in Boston before boarding the wrong planes and leaving the strings behind, then taking a cab back to DC via NYC because Daddy Warmongerbucks would pick up the tab?

    Don’t you also get that the plane that hit the Pentagon was actually being controlled by a CIA-modified Tyco controller that Dick Cheney was controlling from his secret bunker under the Eternal Flame at Arlington National Cemetery, and that he lost control of it because the batteries died, and he thought he was really working his Tyco Cliffhangers slot racing set to entertain his daughter to show her that her “butch” behavior wasn’t macho enough?

    Don’t you get that the PA crash was caused by a passenger eating the bad airline food and puking so badly that the smell made the pilots pass out from the fumes and Ted Striker wasn’t on that flight?

    And last, don’t you get that the alleged 19 terrorists were really the Iraqi National Ski team, traveling the country desperately looking for a good-sized sand dune to bump some moguls on to practice for their shot at the 1992 Winter Olympics (not knowing they would be held in 1994), and they became a convenient excuse to invade Iraq because Bush thought WMD meant Wide Massive Dunes, and he knew there were plenty of those in Iraq since it’s a freaking desert?

    See, I heard all this from my second cousin’s roommate’s ex-trisexual lover (animal, vegetable, mineral)–you know, that guy running for GA governor on the other thread–that his goldfish told him during sex that he heard from the cat that the cat saw a Lebanese-looking guy in the alley (actually it was just Jamie Farr’s nose) sniffing around a tinfoil hat that had been carried there by the ants in the Tom and Jerry cartoons before they came over to my house and never left, requiring me to kill them all. He told me this by the light of a full moon during the last Martian eclipse, which is really a religious holiday for the folks at Area 51, and it falls on every June 31. In any case, he told me this while he was wearing a bra on his head and transferring 1.21 Jigawatts from Doc Brown’s Mr. Fusion into his computer, causing Kelly LeBrock to appear to Oingo Boingo music so he could shower with her, and the electric backlash raised Nikolai Tesla from the dead, whence he exclaimed, “SEE! I told you free energy was true and it was all a vast conspiracy to cover it up!” after which he reached over and knocked over Jackie Gleason’s domino rally set and blamed Richard Pryor for it. The voltage also caused part of my hair to catch on fire, which is why I have a pseudo-mullet at the moment.

    So, yes it was all one vast conspiracy–to bizarrely cut my hair, that is.

  135. robert capozzi

    ms, couldn’t you work in arlen specter and the magic bullet and black helicopters and the grays? 😉

  136. Michael Seebeck

    Nah, they couldn’t find the party registration of the magic bullet because the cat ate it before being swept away by the black helicopters to Arlen Specter’s second party switch news conference, and the bullet itself was with Kennedy’s brain in ajar under the Eternal Flame with Dick Cheney (right where it’s supposed to be!). That’s also how the cat knew what happened ot the Pentagon, and the kite strings also brought down the WTC when the cat pulled on them (strong fishing line it was!) while searching for food.

    The PA plane was just a case of airline food and was a coincidence.

  137. Michael Seebeck

    Oh yeah, and the cat got transported from NYC to DC through the CIA’s Time portal that got turned on by accident in the basement of WTC7, so they had to bring down that building to cover up the evidence.

  138. VAGreen

    Now that I know what really happened on 9/11, I hope that they won’t kill me. I’ve already been killed numerous times to cover up all sorts of conspiracies. I’m really getting tired of it.

  139. mdh

    I always blab. Luckily, I’m the guy who kills people who blab, so I have pretty much carte blanche.

  140. Steven R Linnabary

    Well Michael, I was believing you until the bit about airline food. I mean, really, I haven’t seen food on a plane since what, the late seventies?

    Ya’ gotta’ make your story plausible.

    PEACE

  141. libertariangirl

    AHA! but where is the cat now Mike , huh , where is the cat now?

    you all better watch it , as Sunshine Batman point at we have someobe in the LPNV excomm who makes genocidal weapons for a living.

  142. Michael Seebeck

    Steve, it WAS airline food from the 70’s–that’s why it was bad!

    LG, the cat is in hiding, afraid of Obama’s new Portugese Water Dog.

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