Jim Duensing running for Libertarian nomination for President of USA

Speaking on WYBS radio this morning, former Libertarian Party of Nevada and Libertarian State Leadership Alliance chair Jim Duensing confirmed that he is seeking the Libertarian nomination for President of the United States.

Duensing supporters were seen at the Libertarian Party of Nevada convention this past weekend wearing Jim Duensing for President T-Shirts.

Duensing recently caused a stir in Navada by holding a Marin Luther King Day rally at a shooting range. He started Libertarians for Justice (“because 9/11 truth is not enough”) and seconded the nomination of Ernie Hancock for chair of the Libertarian National Commitee at last May’s national convention.

On October 29, 2009, Duensing, who was chairman of the Nevada Libertarian Party until March, 2009, was shot by a Las Vegas policeman after the police had stopped Duensing for making an illegal turn and some illegal lane changes. He was also tazed, and the case is still making its way through the court system.

Other announced or possible candidates for the Libertarian presidential nomination include Wayne Root and James Libertarian Burns, both also from the Las Vegas area, where the nominee will be selected in May 2012, as well as Lee Wrights from Texas.

Speaking with myself (Paulie of IPR) on WYBS radio, Duensing said that his goal is to get 3 percent of the votes for President as the Libertarian Party nominee in 2012. He said he believed giving him a home field advantage was not what the Libertarian National Commitee had in mind when they picked Las Vegas for the party’s 2012 convention. He said he supports a criminal investigation of former US Vice President Dick Cheney, and plans to travel to Libertarian state conventions leading up to the nomination.

316 thoughts on “Jim Duensing running for Libertarian nomination for President of USA

  1. Jim Duensing

    That was quick Paulie 🙂

    Two minor things. I was shot on October 29th of 2009 – not the 30th. And, I’m looking for three percent of the vote, not three million.

    In Liberty, with Eternal Vigilance,

    Jim Duensing

  2. A realistic observation

    This has to be some kind of joke. What qualifications does this turkey have other than getting shot?

  3. Sane LP Member

    End of the LP if they run this guy. Is this the best they can do? Need someone with name rec that can bring in millions of votes and help some states with ballot access. Mainstream voter will not support anarchy behavior– not going to happen. They like their internet, evening news, tv dinners, and steel-belted radials too much.

  4. paulie Post author

    Two minor things. I was shot on October 29th of 2009 – not the 30th. And, I’m looking for three percent of the vote, not three million.

    Fixed.

  5. David Colborne

    @4: If bias ply tires were good enough for my parents, they’re good enough for America.

    That said… is Jim over 35? I thought he was younger than that.

  6. Jim Duensing

    As to my qualifications for the office, I will be 35 on January 7th, 2012 – some 13 days sooner than is required by the Constitution. And, unlike the current occupant of the White House, I am a Native-born American. In fact, I think I would be the first President of American Indian descent. Not sure on that last fact.

    In Liberty, with Eternal Vigilance,

    Jim Duensing

  7. Country Crammer

    35 on January 7th, 2012 – some 13 days sooner than is required by the Constitution

    Actually you only have to be 35 in Jan 2013, not Jan 2012.

  8. Jeremy C. Young

    Duensing is correct that there has never been a President of American Indian descent. However, there have been both a Vice President (Charles Curtis) and a First Lady (Edith Wilson) of American Indian descent.

  9. Thomas M. Sipos

    @ 2 : “What qualifications does this turkey have other than getting shot?”

    What qualifications does ANY Libertarian candidate have?

    Root is an infomercial huckster.

    Milnes is a blogger.

    Burns is … Burns.

    Yes, RON PAUL has REAL qualifications: longtime Congressman that the media — and voters, and youth — take seriously

    But Ron Paul isn’t running for the LP nomination. Unsurprisingly.

  10. paulie Post author

    Dunno. Anyway, Duensing is, like Root, a guy who knows how to get media and how to handle himself when he does get an interview.

    If he wants delegates to consider him seriously, he needs to start doing that at the national level between now and the 2012 convention in the same way Wayne is doing. I recommend using http://newslink.org as much as he can as well as getting as many people as possible to help with that.

    A book also helps.

    He is in a great position to talk about the growing problems of police militarization, abuse and brutality against the American people, and all the issues that relate to that.

  11. Robert Milnes

    Sooner or later people are going to speak up for me instead of the IPR put downs I usually get.
    Sipos, you still haven’t dealt with Rand Paul=definitely Tea Party counterrevolutionary & father Ron.-GOP counterrevolutionary?

  12. Country Crammer

    Sooner or later people are going to speak up for me instead of the IPR put downs I usually get.

    Not in this lifetime.

    I’m mostly trying for the BTP nomination. But if the LP nominates me, I’d accept.

    No one is going to nominate you.

  13. paulie Post author

    On other thing I should bring up. I worked in Las Vegas in 2004 on a marijuana initiative. I think Duensing was chair then. We would see the Nevada LP handing out brochures car to car at intersections, just randomly from driving around town, and find those same brochures in random places. I also ran into the LP crew walking across campus at UNLV. I was not looking for the Libertarians at those time, but I was finding them all over the place doing stuff to get the message out in person.

    In many years of traveling around the country and working in the majority of US States I have not seen LPs be so active. Most LPs seem content to sit back and wait for people to come to them. They might do some media/events from time to time, but not like this, going out in the general public and physically handing out tens of thousands of pieces of LP literature.

  14. Gains

    “Most LPs seem content to sit back and wait for people to come to them.”

    It feels like having a successful local party makes the powers above nervous and aggressive.

    In California, the largest most active county is being dogged by a state officer seeking vengeance under color of authority upon the group for not supporting him. The same state officer is rumored to have hand crafted a by-laws report this year with a half dozen proposals for purge mechanisms.

  15. whatever

    Will Mr. Duensing itemize his engineering or other contracts with the FedGov?

    What is his relationship with Area 51 (just about literally right in his back yard)?

  16. JT

    On another thread, I listed the qualities I think a Libertarian candidate for President needs to have: advocates a serious reduction in the federal government (in all the economic, social, and foreign spheres), is articulate and polished, has no public history of socially conservative or economically liberal activism, can raise at least $500,000 before the convention, and won’t be tied to conspiracy theories.

    Based on the limited information about this guy, it appears to me he’ll fail on the last two.

  17. Observer

    “He said he supports a criminal investigation of former US Vice President Dick Cheney”.

    This item alone would be enough to get my support.

  18. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    Jim Duensing // Jan 20, 2013:

    “I will be 35 on January 7th, 2012 – some 13 days [Lake: AND ONE YEAR] sooner than is required by the Constitution …….. ”

    I think I would be the first President of American Indian * descent. Not sure on that last fact. [Lake: and yet not the first VP]

    * [Original Immigrant(s), and not just Siberians, trickles of Africans, Asians, Islanders, and Europeans —— especially during ice ages and the resultant low sea levels!]

    In Liberty, with Eternal ‘Room Temperature IQ’ —— and ‘making it up as he goes along!’
    Jim Duensing

    [Sorry he was shot by the Vegas Gestopo, but he has a long history of Loose Cannon, Loose with the Facts, in California ………. sorry to say]

  19. Observer

    “In California, the largest most active county is being dogged by a state officer seeking vengeance under color of authority upon the group for not supporting him. The same state officer is rumored to have hand crafted a by-laws report this year with a half dozen proposals for purge mechanisms”

    All weekend, people have been ragging on California when they talk about Nevada. Huh? Maybe any beefs with the CA leadership should be taken up with them.

  20. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    Observer // Jan 31, 2011:

    “He said he supports a criminal investigation of former US [defacto president] Vice President Dick Cheney”.

    Observer: This item alone would be enough to get my support.

    Lake: This item alone would be enough to get my positive attention.

  21. Gains

    Observer @37: “All weekend, people have been ragging on California when they talk about Nevada. Huh? Maybe any beefs with the CA leadership should be taken up with them.”

    Well I think i have two responses for your questions:

    1. The California/Nevada back room connection is a lot stronger than many know. BTW You call them leadership, I call them representatives, the distinction is important in context and in real application.

    2. The post I made that you referred to had more to do with a trend of people in positions of trust to dissuading strong local efforts. It was posted in response to Paulie noting that the Nevada LP was very active under Mr. Duensing, and his post was made in a conversational atmosphere in which Mr. Duensing was being criticized for inactivity.

  22. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    I am not Nevadan

    I am not LP

    Yet, I have said similar (#39) things for years ………

    and now on to the gross defects of Richard Rider, Ed Tessleir (sp), and Bruce [Israel First] Cohen ……….

  23. paulie Post author

    On another thread, I listed the qualities I think a Libertarian candidate for President needs to have: advocates a serious reduction in the federal government (in all the economic, social, and foreign spheres), is articulate and polished, has no public history of socially conservative or economically liberal activism, can raise at least $500,000 before the convention, and won’t be tied to conspiracy theories.

    Based on the limited information about this guy, it appears to me he’ll fail on the last two.

    I don’t know of any candidate that raised anywhere close to 500 k pre-nomination since 2000. Whether anyone will do it this time remains to be seen. If anyone can, it will depend most likely on how well they can build momentum, not what they start out with.

    As for conspiracy theories, I’d be surprised if none of the candidates believe in the official government conspiracy theory of 9/11 🙂

    I do find Mr. Duensing apparent belief in birther theories out of line with myself, but I don’t expect anyone to agree with me 100% of the time. That would be unrealistic, since I’m permanently ineligible.

  24. paulie Post author

    “He said he supports a criminal investigation of former US Vice President Dick Cheney”.

    This item alone would be enough to get my support.

    Necessary, but not sufficient.

  25. paulie Post author

    All weekend, people have been ragging on California when they talk about Nevada. Huh? Maybe any beefs with the CA leadership should be taken up with them.

    It seems some Californians think the whole world revolves around them.

  26. paulie Post author

    The post I made that you referred to had more to do with a trend of people in positions of trust to dissuading strong local efforts. It was posted in response to Paulie noting that the Nevada LP was very active under Mr. Duensing, and his post was made in a conversational atmosphere in which Mr. Duensing was being criticized for inactivity.

    That is true. But other people want to use it as a segue to the California discussion.

  27. paulie Post author

    I am not Nevadan

    I am not LP

    Yet, I have said similar (#39) things for years ………

    Not having much familiarity with a situation does not stop people from commenting on it.

  28. Pingback: A Constitution Party Sympathetic Paleocon Discusses Potential Libertarians for President | Conservative Heritage Times

  29. JT

    Paulie: “I don’t know of any candidate that raised anywhere close to 500 k pre-nomination since 2000.”

    I don’t either. I think that’s a problem.

    Paulie: “As for conspiracy theories, I’d be surprised if none of the candidates believe in the official government conspiracy theory of 9/11 .”

    By “official government conspiracy theory of 9/11,” do you mean the idea that the U.S. government engineered it? I’d be surprised if none of them believe that also. But anyone who does shouldn’t be the nominee, IMO.

    Paulie: “I do find Mr. Duensing apparent belief in birther theories out of line with myself, but I don’t expect anyone to agree with me 100% of the time.”

    I don’t expect that either as far as government policies go. I do as far as conspiracy theories go. We don’t need to make it tougher for the LP to be taken seriously.

  30. paulie Post author

    By “official government conspiracy theory of 9/11,” do you mean the idea that the U.S. government engineered it?

    No, I mean the government’s official conspiracy theory about 19 Arabs with boxcutters taking orders from a dude in a cave.

  31. Pingback: Paleocon Red Phillips Discusses Potential Libertarians for President | Independent Political Report

  32. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    don lake // Jan 31, 2011:
    I am not Nevadan: I am not LP; I have said similar (#39) things for years ………

    [Mister P: Not having much familiarity with a situation does not stop people from commenting on it.]

    [Lake: and yet ‘some’ commentators are sooooooooo knowledgeable that they are ‘spot on’ time and time again. Thru out California (in AND out of LPCa) and Nevada (in AND out of LPNv), Jim Duensing is widely held in low regard and with high suspicion. Let’s hear more ’bout that legendary ‘Mister P’ fairness …….]

    [Lake: what next, disputing Jimmy’s January 20th misstep?]

  33. paulie Post author

    Thru out California (in AND out of LPCa) and Nevada (in AND out of LPNv), Jim Duensing is widely held in low regard and with high suspicion.

    Some people like him, some people don’t. So?

    what next, disputing Jimmy’s January 20th misstep?

    I was actually the first to point it out. Have you considered that it may have been a typo?

  34. NewFederalist

    “Or maybe you are just another no balls anonymous asshole.”

    Hey, hey! We have feelings too you know.

  35. LibertarianGirl

    Jim is held in both very high and very low regard depending on who you are.

    I myself have felt both ways about him .

    I think he will garner some support then throw it behind Lee Wrights but thats just my opinion.

    Knowing him VERY WELL , its icing on the cake for him that he will be a thorn in WAR’s side in 2012 with an abundance of media attention..

    in an offhand observation , his shirts were very cute , and well designed , they didnt look like your average boring political shirt.

  36. LibertarianGirl

    “In Liberty, with Eternal ‘Room Temperature IQ’ —— and ‘making it up as he goes along!’”

    me_ make no mistake his IQ is VERY high , and he and i arent exactly friendly anymore so im not paying a compliment , im stating a fact , DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE HIM , it would be a serious misstep

  37. paulie Post author

    in an offhand observation , his shirts were very cute , and well designed , they didnt look like your average boring political shirt.

    Got pics?

  38. Gains

    My advice to the long time Libertarians in Nevada: You got bushwhacked, probably because you became a little content. Whatever Root and Silvestri can do, you can do better: Recruit, educate and fill your ranks with like minds to take your party back!

  39. Funky Chicken

    have you considered that may be you are not all that fair and balanced?

    Have you considered that maybe you have a perpetual deep rooted psychological and overwhelming need to challenge those you perceive as being in authority, even in those cases where they are not, which has over many years gotten worse and become pathological in nature?

  40. Jim Duensing

    A pic of both the black and the pink shirt can be found here:

    http://building777seven.jimduensing.com/Duensing_for_Pres_shirts_at_NVLP_convention_2011_01_JAN_29.jpg

    Black is available in Large and Extra Large. Pink is available in Medium and Small.

    The back says “Resistance to Tyranny is Obedience to God” – Thomas Jefferson

    All shirts are American made – like the pretty girls you can find wearing them.

    http://building777seven.jimduensing.com/Duensing_for_Pres_shirts_at_NVLP_convention_2011_01_JAN_29.jpg

    Get yours for just $50 and support the effort to take back our country.

  41. paulie Post author

    Black and pink are not my colors, and I don’t have $50 to spare…although I may find $50 if the girls com…uh, never mind, we won’t go there.

    More seriously, thanks for the links. Did anyone archive or tape the YBS show?

  42. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    spelling and diction alone

    my minors get major put downs

    can I even start to list HORRIBLE folks whom get untouched

    I mean Cody Quirk, ‘yells’ at spelling mistakes with, you guessed it, spelling mistakes. That ‘Maroon’

    So you approve of folks putting up with abuse. You approve of unfair treatment. You expect folks whom rail against abusive R and D behavior to remain silent on the same action concerning alternative political types? Duh!

  43. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    What is the mission, reason for existence, the rationale for Independent Party Report?

    Just because I do not sit around the electronic camp fire and sing Kumbiya with folks I feel are wrong / devious I should quit hurling bricks at the armored tanks of the corrupt establishment?

    Do I at least have some ‘street cred’ ——— some ‘history’ ———- possibly A WHOLE LOT more than your self, whom ever you are?

  44. Chuck Moulton

    Jim is a smart guy and a dynamic speaker. Depending on the field he could position himself like Badnarik.

    However, a lot of libertarians (myself included) will never support a 9/11 truther and/or birther for the presidential nomination. He’s already shown that this issue is the core of his campaigns through the state chairs conference he ran and his subsequent LSLA chair re-election bid. So I highly doubt he’ll get the nomination.

  45. Jim Duensing

    Chuck, with all due respect – and I do respect the work you have put in for our party – that libertarian attitude has been our party’s problem.

    The truth is still the truth whether you choose to believe it or not. The victims of Building 7 deserve justice and Kenyans should not be President. Even if it’s unpopular, it’s our responsibility as Libertarians who understand the nature and blessings of human freedom to fight for those things – even and especially when they are unpopular. And, I’ll bet anyone that a national poll would find more people who believe Dick Cheney issued a stand down order on September 11th than you will find people who can quote the non-aggression principle.

    There is a divide in this party between those who are unwilling to stand up for principle and those who know that we have a sacred responsibility to take a Samuel Whittemore gut check and take care of business.

    You aren’t going to get your liberty back until you are willing to face facts – no matter how bad the situation is. Do not allow yourself to become an Ostrich Libertarian – or worse yet, a Glenn Beck Libertarian.

    In Liberty, with Eternal Vigilance,

    Jim Duensing

  46. Jim Duensing

    @ Paulie, Face the Tribune on ybsradio.com is archived. This weeks shows should be available on the web by the weekend. It airs live 06:00 – 08:00 pacific time.

  47. paulie Post author

    @ 78 BTP has no money for ballot access. They were on the ballot in 3 states in 2008. At least two of those were because the presidential candidate personally paid us to get him on (TN and FL), and they are two of the easiest states, along with the other one where they were on the ballot – Colorado. BTP + a candidate with no money, such as yourself = no ballot access.

    Furthermore, what makes you think you can get the BTP nomination? You tried last time, and it was not exactly close.

    Also see @ 79.

    @ 80 The BTP has no rule against nominating the LP candidate. However, they nominate in December 2011, several months before LP, so after that point if you are the BTP nominee and still running for the LP nomination you would face questions of party loyalty and whether you would continue to run against the LP nominee if it is not you.

    The BTP national committee may not raise or spend more than $5 a year, so any ballot access would pretty much come from the candidate, not the other way around.

    @ 81 Thanks. I did not see archives on the website. Do you have a more direct link to the archives directly?

  48. Darryl W. Perry

    additionally, still working on getting the Ballot Access Committee up & running.

    I expect the BTP to get ballot access in at least 5 States in 2012 with minimal effort. If party members are more active, hopefully the BTP can get on the ballot in 10 or more States.

  49. Observer

    JD @ 74: I completely agree with you. We really can’t see the “whole picture” of what’s going on in this country without an understanding of the betrayal and downright lying re: the events of 9/11 from those in charge, including the MSM. Many Libertarians like to continue the ridicule put on “Truthers” by those who can’t explain the discrepancies, but that doesn’t change the fact that there are gaping holes in the government’s conspiracy theory (you know, the 19 Arabs with boxcutters fable.)
    Every day more people look at the science of 9/11, and come away with very troubling questions about that day.

    Good luck on your bid for President!

  50. Robert Milnes

    Come on Darryl, don’t put up unnecessary barriers.
    A fusion ticket means a progressive and a libertarian.
    e.g. Gravel/Ruwart.
    & this is why I’m running Independent. eg. Nader-Ind.- got almost 50 ballot access in 2008.
    Darryl’good. continue expanding BTP ballot access. We cannot rely on the LP to nominate a decent ticket.
    Root/ is not a decent ticket.

  51. paulie Post author

    Mr. Milnes, the bylaws of the BTP are permanent and not subject to change. If you don’t like them, you’ll have to start your own party. The good news on that score is that you won’t be too far behind the BTP in actual organization if you do.

    If you wish to further discuss your PLAS idea, you may not do so on this or other unrelated threads at IPR, according to a group decision by IPR editors. Please move that aspect of the discussion over to the appropriate thread if you wish to continue it.

  52. Thomas L. Knapp

    DWP@79,

    You write:

    “The BTP could not nominate a fusion ticket without violating party bylaws.”

    The bylaws as published on the BTP’s site say the opposite. Have they been amended, and the amendment not published?

    Paulie @ 90,

    You write:

    “the bylaws of the BTP are permanent and not subject to change.”

    Article 4 of the bylaws is permanent and not subject to change. Everything else is amendable.

  53. Fun K. Chicken

    http://www.bostontea.us/bylaws

    ARTICLE 4: PLATFORM

    a) The Party’s platform is as follows:

    The Boston Tea Party supports reducing the size, scope and power of government at all levels and on all issues, and opposes increasing the size, scope and power of government at any level, for any purpose.

    b) Notwithstanding any other or subsequent provisions for amendment to these bylaws, the Party’s platform, and the entirety of this article, shall be perpetual and unmodifiable.

    c) Notwithstanding various election laws which compel the acceptance of candidates on a particular party’s ballot line, the Party does not and shall not endorse or voluntarily materially support any candidate for election or appointment to any public office who has not endorsed the Party’s platform. The National Committee shall have the authority to publicly repudiate, and if possible remove from the Party’s ballot line, any candidate whose name appears on the Party’s ballot line in any jurisdiction, who declines to endorse the platform or whose policy positions are repugnant to the platform.

    Thus, both the P and VP candidate would have to endorse the platform; ergo, no fusion ticket.

  54. Fun K. Chicken

    BTP Bylaws

    ARTICLE 9: NATIONAL COMMITTEE

    a) The National Committee shall have control and management of the affairs of the Party consistent with these bylaws. The Committee shall adopt rules of procedure for the conduct of its meetings and the carrying out of its duties and responsibilities. The Committee may delegate such tasks as it deems necessary to subcommittees or volunteer staff, to be composed entirely of Party members. Neither the Party nor the Committee shall claim or exercise ownership or control of any monies or physical assets with the exceptions of those outlined in Article 10 of these bylaws.

    ARTICLE 10: MONIES AND PHYSICAL ASSETS

    a) The Party and/or National Committee shall not maintain a bank account or treasury, solicit or accept financial contributions, or make expenditures for any purpose, except as provided for in this article.

    b) The Party’s web site shall be located at http://www.bostontea.us and at such other domains as any person may choose to direct to that URL, and shall be owned and maintained by the Party’s founder. For the consideration of $1 and service fees to be limited by subsequent sections of this article, donated to the Party by the founder and disbursed to himself in payment in his role as founder prior to the appointment of interim officers, the founder has agreed to lease the domain http://www.bostontea.us to the Party for 99 years commencing July 4th, 2006 and to, within the constraints of his ability, operate the Party’s site at that domain under the direction of, and in accordance with the policies of, the National Committee.

    c) The National Committee may, at its discretion and with the founder’s agreement, solicit in-kind contributions to be directed to the founder to provide site administration and maintenance (including but not limited to domain name registration and renewal, hosting, bandwidth and technical support costs).

    d) The National Committee may, at its discretion, undertake additional solicitation of in-kind contributions to the founder or other individuals or organizations to provide for other Internet services for the good and benefit of the Party.

    e) Under no circumstances shall the National Committee solicit, accept or spend financial or in-kind contributions which in total exceed the amount, less one dollar, which would require the National Committee or the Party to register with or report to the Federal Elections Commission. The record of the Party’s revenues and expenditures shall be maintained by the Secretary in the National Committee’s minutes and the Secretary shall notify the National Committee when and if the Party’s total revenues and/or expenditures reach half that figure, and afterward at such times as may be necessary for keeping the National Committee informed of its status in relation to this section.

    f) The National Committee shall not request, promote, solicit; conspire to request, promote, solicit; or in any way, shape, manner or form accept any connection with or any responsibility for independent expenditures made on its behalf or contributions made to those engaging in such expenditures. This section shall in no way be construed to forbid any Party member or member or officer of the National Committee, from making independent expenditures in the interest of promoting or advancing the Party’s interests.

  55. Fun K. Chicken

    Upon this reading, it appears that Mr. Knapp is correct; article 9 and 10 of the bylaws could be changed, and the party could after that point raise and spend money.

  56. paulie Post author

    Thus, both the P and VP candidate would have to endorse the platform; ergo, no fusion ticket.

    TLK: If you disagree with this interpretation, why?

  57. LibertarianGirl

    P_If you wish to further discuss your PLAS idea, you may not do so on this or other unrelated threads at IPR, according to a group decision by IPR editors.

    me_ hooray , hallelujah , yay , sweet , fuck yeah!

  58. Thomas L. Knapp

    Paulie @96,

    I don’t see how the requirement that someone endorse the BTP’s platform in order to receive the BTP’s nomination or endorsement for public office in any way prohibits a “fusion ticket.”

    In point of fact, the BTP has, in the past, endorsed candidates of other parties. In states that allow fusion and in which the BTP has a ballot line, why couldn’t it formally nominate them?

  59. paulie Post author

    Fusion ticket as Milnes uses it means that a “progressive” would be the presidential candidate of the BTP, and the VP would be a libertarian. That would mean that one of them – in this case himself – would not endorse the platform.

  60. Matt Cholko

    Actually, I think Milnes wants a BTP or LP and a Green. He wants a libertarian and a “progressive”, not two from the libertarian side of things.

  61. Fun K. Chicken

    That is correct. He wants one L and one P. However per Article 4, the P can not be one the BTP ticket. Endorsing that platform would make the P into a non-P.

  62. paulie Post author

    More breaking news, a reply from the Milnes campaign HQ trailer in Camden, NJ to the woman @ 105 who asked to remain anonymous…

  63. Chuck Moulton

    Jim Duensing wrote:

    The truth is still the truth whether you choose to believe it or not. The victims of Building 7 deserve justice and Kenyans should not be President. Even if it’s unpopular, it’s our responsibility as Libertarians who understand the nature and blessings of human freedom to fight for those things – even and especially when they are unpopular. And, I’ll bet anyone that a national poll would find more people who believe Dick Cheney issued a stand down order on September 11th than you will find people who can quote the non-aggression principle.

    There are some important inquiries that should be done (e.g., building 7). But those who believe all of 9/11 was an inside job have a lot more faith in the ability of the government to plan, execute, and conceal a conspiracy than I do. As for the birth certificate controversy, it has been addressed over and over again by the state of Hawaii and the Obama campaign.

    I would like conspiracy theorists to specify ex ante what evidence would satisfy them that there was no conspiracy — and stick to it! In contrast what I have seen is a systematic moving target as objections are addressed one by one with evidence and conspiracy theorists ignore that evidence or present more different theories on the subject. For example, the people who said mercury in vaccinations cause autism now say aluminum in vaccinations cause autism. If the theories keep changing and it is impossible to satisfy a group of people no matter what evidence is produced, I view that as counter-productive for politics.

    Additionally I don’t think these theories are a good leading issue because they alienate as many people (or more) as they attract. I could be convinced to vote for someone with some conspiracy leanings if they were not campaign issues, but I believe a candidate who puts these theories as a top 3 headline campaign issue can do damage to the reputation of the party and hurt other candidates down ticket.

    That’s how I’m voting at least. I don’t know how many other Libertarians share my perspective.

  64. Darryl W. Perry

    @Tom, my statement about the BTP bylaws prohibiting a fusion ticket,is the Milnes proposed fusion on a “P” & “L”
    As Fun K. Chicken wrote in 104: Endorsing that platform would make the P into a non-P.

  65. Red Phillips

    “As for the birth certificate controversy, it has been addressed over and over again by the state of Hawaii and the Obama campaign.”

    Umm… not really. I’m do not believe Obama was born in Kenya, but I do think he should authorize the release of his long form birth certificate. What we have seen so far is an electronic bc that some question the authenticity of. There is absolutely no reason why BO shouldn’t authorize the release of his long form (original) bc. That he continues to refuse to do so naturally causes people to wonder why.

  66. paulie Post author

    As Dave Weigel once wrote in IPR comments…

    Anyone who believes that pregnant, 18-year old college student Ann Dunham took a transatlantic flight in her third trimester – in 1961 – gave birth, smuggled back her kid, and managed to keep this secret from everyone is …. (he used an impolite term).

    The birth announcement was in the newspaper, too.

    Bob Weber adds:

    Don’t forget that in 1961, a trip to Kenya was so expensive that it would have required years of scrimping and saving for the average well-paid American worker. And yet we are asked to believe that a penniless grad student (Obama, Sr. came to the U.S. on scholarship) and his pregnant teen bride traveled to Kenya (doubtless to take advantage of the superb health care in Kenya 1961), bore their mulatto son, returned to the United States, and left not one shred of evidence! No visa application, no record of leaving or re-entering the U.S. or Kenya, no hospital records in Kenya, no record of entry into the U.S. of infant Barack Obama, Jr. But there is an alternate explanation:

    Barack Obama, Sr. and Ann Dunham made contact with a Soviet submarine (it might have been a fishing trawler) and were transported to Kenya and smuggled ashore in order for the infant Obama Jr. to be born in Kenya. He had to be born in Kenya because the Harmonic Convergence of Evil, 1961, (note that ”1961” is the same up or down) happened in that country, populated as it is by dark-skinned natives, some of whom are Moslems. Obama Jr.’s birth took place in the center of a pentagram, with Dr. Josef Mengele as attending physician, while at the corners of the pentagram five blonde, blue-eyed virgins were sacrificed to
    Satan as a Red Mass was celebrated. In attendance at the birth were Nikita Khrushchev, Mao Tse-Tung, Martin Bormann, Klaus Barbie, Charles Manson, Pope John XXIII, Billy Graham, Norman Vincent Peale, and the entire Mormon Tabernacle Choir. At the moment of birth, Dr. Mengele held high the infant Obama and proclaimed, “We give this child to thee, O Great and Powerful Satan”.

    There is not one shred of evidence for this scenario. But isn’t the complete lack of evidence proof of how deep the conspiracy goes?

    Weber continues,

    Back to reality: It’s amusing that the wingnuts put forth the preposterous theory of Obama being born in Kenya, when for their purposes it would suffice to allege that, for example, Obama was born in Canada after Ann Dunham gave birth after sightseeing at Niagara Falls, and went into labor after crossing to the Canadian side for the better view, or even that she gave birth while on an airplane flight from Buffalo, N.Y. to Duluth, MN while it was over Canadian territory (look at a map), but while it has no more evidence than the Kenyan birth story (none), and is millions of time more plausible, it doesn’t have the sizzle, the pizazz, of claiming that Obama was born in Kenya.

    It’s also pretty apparent that the law in question is intended to apply to parents who establish residency outside the United States: for example, Winston Churchill’s mother was American, but she had established residency in Great Britain, and it would be quite a stretch to argue that Churchill was eligible for the presidency of the U.S.

    Also, the law in question seems to me to apply also to cases where a parent was born in the U.S. but had never established a residency in the U.S. at all. (A person born shipboard in a U.S. port is technically eligible for U.S. citizenship.)

    Finally, the fact that so many believe the preposterous story of “Obama’s Kenyan Birth” shows how easy it is to persuade the masses of absurd fictions. Iraq WMD’s, Hussein-9/11, anyone?

    Weigel again:

    And I’d ask again – why does Barack Obama have to show you his birth certificate when George W. Bush never did? Is it because his father was Kenyan? Because Ann Dunham Obama did not leave Hawaii during her pregnancy, and she did not go to Kenya while she was married to Barack Obama, Sr. (I’m not sure if she went there in her later life, when she was a nomadic do-gooder.)

  67. paulie Post author

    The establishment has millions of people it can groom for leadership roles. To believe that they would intentionally flout the native born citizen rule – for what purpose? – when so many other young people with potential who are willing and able to do what it takes to rise to power are available, and that eyewitnesses all disappeared or stayed silent, does not pass the laugh test.

  68. Red Phillips

    I agree that the idea that Obama was born in Kenya has never made logistical sense. It also doesn’t make sense that his mother would go to Kenya because by all indications her marriage to BO Senior was a total sham.

    But the fact that people want to see his long form bc and he refuses to release it has become an issue in and of itself. There is ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD REASON BO shouldn’t just authorize its release (unless he has something to hide) and the fact that he hasn’t naturally makes people scratch their heads and wonder why. To be curious to see the long form bc that he refuses to release is the reflexive, intuitive, natural response. It is a result of natural human curiosity and has to be actively suppressed by conspiracy phobia.

    Some have speculated that he doesn’t want to release it because it lists his father as unknown. Who knows? That’s why he should just release the damn thing unless he is hiding something.

    Paulie or anyone please just give me one good reason why BO shouldn’t just authorize the release of his long form bc and shut all the skeptics up. And because it wasn’t asked of GWB doesn’t count. It wasn’t an issue for GWB. It is for BO.

  69. Fun K. Chicken

    Best reason: keep some people running in circles, chasing their tails and looking ridiculous to everyone else.

  70. Steven R Linnabary

    Some have speculated that he doesn’t want to release it because it lists his father as unknown.

    My wife was adopted. There is no “original” birth certificate. Her birth certificate lists her adoptive parents as her parents.

    PEACE

  71. paulie Post author

    Paulie or anyone please just give me one good reason why BO shouldn’t just authorize the release of his long form bc and shut all the skeptics up.

    OK, since you asked…

    I too have an Obama conspiracy theory that would really explain everything….


    Some of us thought, during Dubai-ya Bush’s court-appointed reign of error, that there was a high chance he would call off the pretense of elections entirely, and use some (possibly engineered) tragic event to stay in office under “emergency” martial law — the better to avoid war crimes prosecution.

    But, I think he stumbled on something even more clever: he went to Mexico, got a tan and some plastic surgery, dropped the fake hillbilly accent and phony dumb cowboy act, and made his way around the pesky problem of the 22nd Amendment to the US Constitution by being elected under a fake name: Barack Obama.

    Not only does this explain why his policies are so seamlessly continuous from one term to the next, but it solves the mystery of the “missing” birth certificate that is constantly brought up by the birthers – even though he was obviously in fact born in the US. It’s just that he was not born as Barack Obama, but as George W. Bush, son of George H. W. Bush.

    Sure, I know how absurd and far-fetched this may sound to some, but can anyone provide a better hypothesis to fit all the observed facts? :-P

  72. Red Phillips

    BTW, Dave Weigel is a museum quality specimen of the conspiracy phobic. The problem with anti-conspiracy hysteria is that it cuts off reasonable discourse. The attempt to make “birtherism” beyond the pale has made reasonable discourse, like why BO won’t just release the long form, becomes off limits also.

    Also, the Constitution doesn’t address how the natural born citizen qualification is supposed to be enforced. So discussion about how to enforce it, like states requiring proof before someone gets on the ballot, are entirely reasonable. But attempts to make this happen at the state level automatically bring brain dead charges of birtherism.

    Also, it isn’t entirely clear what the Founders meant by “natural born.” I argued before the election that I didn’t think “natural born” necessarily meant born on American soil as some birthers maintained. I said I thought it meant something closer to not naturalized. But this is a legit question that originalist constitutional scholars should address. Did the Founders intend to exclude people with a foreign parent or dual citizenship for example? But reasonable questions like this can’t be pursued in the hysterical anti-conspiracy environment without charges of birtherism.

    I think the tendency to accept conspiracies is a habit of mind that can make people uncritical. Conspiracy theories can quickly become non-falsifiable. Evidence against the conspiracy becomes evidence of a greater conspiracy. But hysterical efforts to avoid the taint of conspiracy theories also makes people uncritical. Discussion are cut off preemptively to avoid anything remotely resembling or associated with conspiracy.

  73. paulie Post author

    I said I thought it meant something closer to not naturalized.

    That would be my take as well.

    I think the tendency to accept conspiracies is a habit of mind that can make people uncritical. Conspiracy theories can quickly become non-falsifiable. Evidence against the conspiracy becomes evidence of a greater conspiracy. But hysterical efforts to avoid the taint of conspiracy theories also makes people uncritical. Discussion are cut off preemptively to avoid anything remotely resembling or associated with conspiracy.

    I agree. I think there are very legitimate questions being asked about 9/11.

    But, again, I don’t see why, of all the people that could have been “tapped,” “they” would choose someone actually not born in the US.

    Would Deval Patrick, for instance, not have served the same purpose as Barack Obama equally well? To truly accept the premise behind birtherism you have to suppose that the grand conspirators have been planning his ascent since before he was born, and that for some odd reason they needed him to be born in Kenya (or Indonesia, or whatever).

    That seems to me to be more far fetched than any common theory about 9/11 – inside job, mossad, even al qaida not under US orders and without prior US regime knowledge seems more plausible on its face. Unpacking the back story about why Obama would need to be born in Kenya would get you into territory that would make David Icke blush.

  74. Red Phillips

    FNK, that is the reason I have most often heard, but isn’t that a bit of a conspiracy theory itself? BO is intentionally refusing to release his long form bc so as to get his opponents off track and discredit them? Maybe. But isn’t it also possible that he is hiding something? Which explanation would Occam’s razor suggest we select?

    Steven, BO allegedly has a long form bc. The former Governor of HI and the Health Minister (or some such title) have said they have seen it.

  75. paulie Post author

    I have most often heard, but isn’t that a bit of a conspiracy theory itself? BO is intentionally refusing to release his long form bc so as to get his opponents off track and discredit them? Maybe. But isn’t it also possible that he is hiding something? Which explanation would Occam’s razor suggest we select?

    IMO, the first one.

    I think the impetus behind birtherism is easy to understand.

    Obama is part African and has a “funny” name. Many people can’t accept that he is a “real American.”

    It’s only when you try to figure out why
    “they” needed him to be born in Kenya, and how “they” got away with fooling everyone except the birthers, that you cross over from David Duke to David Icke.

    9/11 conspiracy theories, whether Inside Job, Israeli, or Muslim, all are limited in scope. The conspiracy to foist a Kenyan fraudulently into office would have to go back at least about 50 years. That alone makes it less realistic than anything any large number of people have claimed about 9/11.

    I’ll grant that it is possible that Obama is hiding something, but if so, I don’t think it’s an out of the US birth.

  76. Fun K. Chicken

    “but isn’t that a bit of a conspiracy theory itself?”

    Sure. Conspiracies on that scale happen all the time. Watergate coverup, Iran-Contra, etc.

  77. whatever

    As Dave Weigel once wrote in IPR comments…

    Anyone who believes that pregnant, 18-year old college student Ann Dunham took a transatlantic flight in her third trimester – in 1961 – gave birth, smuggled back her kid, etc etc etc

    So, does Weigel think Barry was birthed on the North American mainland? We know he was in Seattle by September. Given the unfeasibility of a transoceanic fight for the very pregnant or the newly-born, it seems that would have to be the way to go.

  78. whatever

    Would Deval Patrick, for instance, not have served the same purpose as Barack Obama equally well?

    Patrick might have been a good “spare Obama”, but Barry had at least two advantages:

    1. Patrick had only been governor for a few weeks in early 2007 when the 208 campaign started; Obama had been in the US Senate for a couple years.

    2. Barry’s romantic African-Kansan story (true or not; technically disqualifying or not) was a better attractor of the “white guilt” vote because there was no (acknowledged) American slave ancestry and therefore no subconscious fear that Barry was an angry black man out for ancestral revenge.

  79. Robert Milnes

    @123, agreed. Very astute. I have speculated about the Massachusetts Mischief Makers-rich, powerful liberals trying to get a liberal democrat elected president.
    They came up with the Acceptable Black Man Liberal Democrat/Fake Progressive Strategy.

  80. paulie Post author

    @ 123 You missed my point. Deval Patrick was just an example.

    The Kenyan Birth hypothesis persumes that rich and powerful power brokers having been grooming Obama for power since before he was born.

    You mean to tell me that they could not have found someone that was born in the US to do that?

    His mother was living in the US. What would have been the point of her going to Africa to give birth and coming back?

    Supposing “they” did not find Obama until some time afterwards, and that the supposed African birth was just a coincidence: they couldn’t have found anyone born in the US to suit their purpose? Seriously?

    And nobody remembers this pregnant white girl from this trip (or with newborn baby on the way back)? Why not?

  81. paulie Post author

    Furthermore @ 123

    1. Patrick had only been governor for a few weeks in early 2007 when the 208 campaign started; Obama had been in the US Senate for a couple years.

    If “they” had been grooming Deval for power, “they” could have gotten him elected earlier….no?

    2. Barry’s romantic African-Kansan story (true or not; technically disqualifying or not) was a better attractor of the “white guilt” vote because there was no (acknowledged) American slave ancestry and therefore no subconscious fear that Barry was an angry black man out for ancestral revenge.

    OK, fine. I don’t know off hand how many US born descendants of post-slave era African immigrants there are. But there are a lot of them, including ones of mixed “race”. I’m certain that if I was one of these all-powerful world manipulators, capable of making all memories of such a trip disappear, I could have found several of them.

    Why Obama? Is he a clone of an Egyptian Pharaoh?

  82. paulie Post author

    So, does Weigel think Barry was birthed on the North American mainland? We know he was in Seattle by September. Given the unfeasibility of a transoceanic fight for the very pregnant or the newly-born, it seems that would have to be the way to go.

    There’s nothing in flying from Hawaii to Seattle that contradicts Obama’s official biography, so no witnesses would need to step forward to point it out. As a much shorter flight, it was far cheaper than flying to Kenya and back, and would have involved less time and interaction with fewer people. As a domestic flight, no visa, passport or any other similar document would have been needed.

  83. paulie Post author

    Anyone ever see George Bush’ birth certificate?

    I could show it to you, but then I’d have to kill you 😉

  84. B4Liberty

    @115
    Steve your wife does indeed have an original birth certificate if she was born in a hospital in the U.S.. She also has an amended original birth certificate with her adoptive information filled in. The fact that a court has sealed the original does not make it disappear.

    Most states now also create a certificate of birth that is in the same format as the one BO has made public. A certificate of birth is the govt. certifying that they do possess an original birth certificate. Though a true certificate of birth will have a raised seal to verify it’s authenticity. The certificate made public by BO’s campaign did not have any seal whatsoever which raised more questions.

    If there was nothing to hide, why does he continue to hide everything?

  85. the original (?) whatever (not Bob Dole)

    Deval Patrick was just an example.

    He was a good example,because Patrick & Obama obviously have/had the same set of handlers. Don’t you remember the mini-scandal that erupted when it was found their teleprompter scripts had a bunch of the same lines in them?

    The Kenyan Birth hypothesis persumes that rich and powerful power brokers having been grooming Obama for power since before he was born.

    How do you figure that?

    You mean to tell me that they could not have found someone that was born in the US to do that?

    It seems to me that more and bigger secrets someone has, the easier they are to manipulate. Barry’s wonky nativity story is a bonus to his would-be manipulators, not a demerit.

    His mother was living in the US. What would have been the point of her going to Africa to give birth and coming back?

    The point of leaving Hawaii for the birth might have been to protect the person who impregnated 17-yr-old Anne from charges of statutory rape. (If the father was a friend of Stanley Armour Dunham’s, they would have been protecting gramps from possible child sex-traffiking charges as well.)

    And nobody remembers this pregnant white girl from this trip (or with newborn baby on the way back)? Why not?

    Several Kenyans, including BOsr’s stepmother and dignitaries in the Parliament, etc, say Barry was born in Kenya. Their stories are typically dismissed by tolerant Western liberals and leftists since, you know, those people are just a bunch of backward Africans.

    If “they” had been grooming Deval for power, “they” could have gotten him elected earlier….no?
    Who are “they”? Mitt “Obamacare” Romney has a lot of juice behind him as well, you know. You seem to be indulging in the idea that someone or ones have perfect control of everything, everywhere, for all time; I don’t necessarily buy that.

    There’s nothing in flying from Hawaii to Seattle that contradicts Obama’s official biography

    1. Ok, so you’re saying Weigel’s objection to a transoceanic flight for Anne&Barry is not really due to its infeasibility but rather because it goes against Weigel’s slavish devotion to Obama’s official biography? Ok, I’ll buy that.

    2.This statement is incorrect anyway. DREAMS FROM MY FATHER states Obama Sr & Stan Anne lived together as husband and wife in Hawaii from 1961-63. It was only in the last year or two that the U Washington records and Seattle-area witnesses came to light placing Anne & Barry in Seattle while BOsr was still in Hawaii.

  86. paulie Post author

    The Kenyan Birth hypothesis persumes that rich and powerful power brokers having been grooming Obama for power since before he was born.

    How do you figure that?

    How could it be otherwise? What was the purpose of going to Kenya to give birth and come back? Why are there no witnesses to this trip and no documents to corroborate it?

    It seems to me that more and bigger secrets someone has, the easier they are to manipulate.

    There are lots of secrets that can be used to manipulate someone. Drugs, sex, records of accepting bribes, drunk driving…the list is endless. Why go to the length of finding someone who was not born in the US?

    The point of leaving Hawaii for the birth might have been to protect the person who impregnated 17-yr-old Anne from charges of statutory rape. (If the father was a friend of Stanley Armour Dunham’s, they would have been protecting gramps from possible child sex-traffiking charges as well.)

    That seems more than a little far fetched. How would having the kid in Kenya protect anyone from charges of statutory rape?

    Several Kenyans, including BOsr’s stepmother and dignitaries in the Parliament, etc, say Barry was born in Kenya.

    Better check snopes.com on that. Search for “obama birth.”

    Their stories are typically dismissed by tolerant Western liberals and leftists since, you know, those people are just a bunch of backward Africans.

    You may want to a look a little more into that one.

    Who are “they”? Mitt “Obamacare” Romney has a lot of juice behind him as well, you know. You seem to be indulging in the idea that someone or ones have perfect control of everything, everywhere, for all time; I don’t necessarily buy that.

    They must have perfect control of everything, everywhere, for all time; otherwise where is the evidence that this trip took place?

    . Ok, so you’re saying Weigel’s objection to a transoceanic flight for Anne&Barry is not really due to its infeasibility but rather because it goes against Weigel’s slavish devotion to Obama’s official biography?

    Nope, I didn’t say that. What I did say was
    …so no witnesses would need to step forward to point it out. As a much shorter flight, it was far cheaper than flying to Kenya and back, and would have involved less time and interaction with fewer people. As a domestic flight, no visa, passport or any other similar document would have been needed.

  87. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    Fun K. Chicken // Feb 1, 2011:

    “keep some people running in circles, chasing their tails and [in an attempt to make them to] looking ridiculous to everyone else …….”

    ——— says the latest, the most recent, but not the last of the agents provocateur , whom ever it is ………..

  88. the original (?) whatever (not Bob Dole)

    How would having the kid in Kenya protect anyone from charges of statutory rape?

    Really? You don’t understand how spiriting the evidence to another continent could hinder an investigation? I can’t help you there, you’ll just have to keep puzzling out that brainteaser for yourself.

    Why are there no witnesses to this trip and no documents to corroborate it?

    There actually is a detailed Kenyan birth record floating around on the net. It has not been disowned by any Kenyan official AFAIK.

    Also, several Kenyans, including BOsr’s stepmother and dignitaries in the Parliament, etc, say Barry was born in Kenya.

    Better check snopes.com on that.

    Their stories are typically dismissed by tolerant Western liberals and leftists since, you know, those people are just a bunch of backward Africans.

    Someone should check if Hawaii had a different age of consent back then.

    It was definitely against federal law to transport minors across state lines for sexual purposes. If upon the Dunhams’ arrival, Stanley Armour Dunham was pimping out his daughter to his Communist pals who were already on the FBI watchlist– or even if it just appeared that he might have been; they would have all been in a heap of trouble.

  89. paulie Post author

    Really? You don’t understand how spiriting the evidence to another continent could hinder an investigation? I can’t help you there, you’ll just have to keep puzzling out that brainteaser for yourself.

    As soon as the mother and child are back, the evidence is right there. So much for that.

    There actually is a detailed Kenyan birth record floating around on the net.

    It’s a forgery. Check with snopes and obamaconspiracy.org for proof. Lots of detail there, as well as at the links at obamaconspiracy.org as well.

    Also, several Kenyans, including BOsr’s stepmother and dignitaries in the Parliament, etc, say Barry was born in Kenya.

    To see lots of well-documented proof that this is total bullshit, see http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/category/birth-location/
    and links therein.

  90. Observer

    @ 140: “Better check snopes.com on that.”

    Do some research on who does snopes.com. It appears to be a progressive couple working from home, with no particular credentials for being the experts on anything.

  91. paulie Post author

    @ 142 When you have specific criticisms of the facts pointed out by snopes.com and obamaconspiracy.org (and linkes therein), please let me know.

  92. the original (?) whatever (not Bob Dole)

    As soon as the mother and child are back, the evidence is right there
    Back where? Seattle? Indonesia? They weren’t permanently in Hawaii until circa 1970, soon after the FBI closed down its UnAmerican Acitivities units.

    It’s a forgery. Check with snopes and obamaconspiracy.org for proof.

    I’ve seen those sites; there’s no real proof offered, only assertions. Again, AFAIK, it has not been disauthenticated by any Kenyan official.

    Also, several Kenyans, including BOsr’s stepmother and dignitaries in the Parliament, etc, say Barry was born in Kenya.

    To see lots of well-documented proof that this is total bullshit, see http://www.obamaconspiracy.org

    Again, the only “proof” I’ve seen offered on this is that Mrs. Obama, the Kenyan parliamentarians, the Kenyan ambassador, etc etc etc, are all just confused backwards Africans.

    That is merely a racist and ethno-centric assertion, not “proof.”

  93. Fun K. Chicken

    I’ve seen those sites; there’s no real proof offered, only assertions

    Readers can check the cited sites, and references therein for themselves. You can even order your very own “Kenyan birth certificate” that is every bit as convincing as the one allegedly belonging to Obama.

    Again, the only “proof” I’ve seen offered on this is that Mrs. Obama, the Kenyan parliamentarians, the Kenyan ambassador, etc etc etc, are all just confused backwards Africans.

    Then you haven’t really explored the site and its links. There is a lot there, including a transcript of the original interview with Sarah Obama and much more.

    I’ve seen those sites; there’s no real proof offered, only assertions. Again, AFAIK, it has not been disauthenticated by any Kenyan official.

    Reading is fundamental.

    “Also, several Kenyans, including BOsr’s stepmother and dignitaries in the Parliament, etc, say Barry was born in Kenya.”

    Bolding, italicizing and repeating your silly unproven claims does not make them any more true.

  94. the original (?) whatever (not Bob Dole)

    Several Kenyans, including BOsr’s stepmother and dignitaries in the Parliament, etc, have said Barry was born in Kenya

  95. paulie Post author

    However off base I think Jim is in buying into “Obama Kenyan birth,” I think he is in a great position to bring attention to this:

  96. Fun K. Chicken

    “Peace prizes, it’s not in the least bit surprising. This is the pagan Norwegians worshiping the beast rising.

    Obama is a bomber, the thunder good of doom, and Thor gives him the peace price on the day he bombs the moon?! You want the truth, we analyzed his hair though. It turns out he is a clone of an Egyptian Pharaoh. Amen Ra the Anti-Christ, a psycho, a tyrant clone, a lying phony, a hypnotist in the messiah zone..” LOLOL

  97. the original (?) whatever (not Bob Dole)

    …repeating your silly unproven claims does not make them any more true.
    I recommend you cease doing so.

  98. paulie Post author

    @ 155 see 140, 144, 147; repeating your error only compounds it. Chanting that silliness like a mantra is designed to do what, convince yourself, hynotize everyone else, both?

  99. Jim Duensing

    I covered some of the highpoints of Obama’s Kenyan birth on Face the Tribune on http://www.ybsradio.com this morning. That show should be available in an online archive soon.

    In the meantime, here are some questions that have been systematically avoided at the expense of millions and millions of dollars:

    Where is Barack Hussein Obama’s long form birth certificate, signed by the doctor on duty at the Honolulu hospital he was allegedly born at?

    Is Obama calling his grandmother a liar? She has stated that she was present at Obama’s birth in Kenya. Is she a conspiracy theorist or a proud grandmother?

    Where is the infamously missing videotape of the Barack Obama / Alan Keyes Illinois Senate Debate where Obama admitted he was not a natural born citizen? Did it go down the memory hole?

    How many different citizenships and passports did Barack Obama, Barry Soetoro, and Barry Dunham possess?

    And one more for those of you who think that overwhelming evidence of his Kenyan birth is irrelevant…

    Does Barack Obama’s Kenyan birth and nonAmerican loyalties make him more willing to poison the Gulf of Mexico with BP’s oil, and / or to look the other way when he discovers Dick Cheney’s Halliburton blew the oil rig?

    Was the Founding Generation right that only natural born Americans should ever rise to the highest Constitutional office in the land?

    In Liberty, with Eternal Vigilance,

    Jim Duensing

  100. Jim Duensing

    @ Paulie – you don’t need to presume powerful world brokers were grooming Obama for the Presidency from birth – you just need to believe in Ocham’s razor. Does a wealthy white grandfather of an American girl want his grandson to have the benefits of American citizenship? If so, is he willing to place a notice in the paper?

  101. paulie Post author

    I covered some of the highpoints of Obama’s Kenyan birth on Face the Tribune on http://www.ybsradio.com this morning. That show should be available in an online archive soon.

    Where are the archives? I did not find them on the site.

    Where is the infamously missing videotape of the Barack Obama / Alan Keyes Illinois Senate Debate where Obama admitted he was not a natural born citizen? Did it go down the memory hole?

    What’s the evidence that such an admission happened?

    Is Obama calling his grandmother a liar? She has stated that she was present at Obama’s birth in Kenya.

    Actually, she didn’t. I linked a source that has the full actual transcript above.

    How many different citizenships and passports did Barack Obama, Barry Soetoro, and Barry Dunham possess?

    You tell me and we’ll take it from there.

  102. paulie Post author

    you just need to believe in Ocham’s razor.

    I’m a big fan of Occam’s razor.

    What’s more likely – that the only individual that powers that be could find to rise to power has concealed his alleged foreign birth, or that this story is the result of people not being able to come to terms with a half-African president with a foreign sounding name?

  103. Jim Duensing

    @ Paulie – the archives for ybs are currently unavailable. They should be available by the weekend.

    I watched the Obama Keyes debate and saw the admission. So did others. The tape is now missing.

    As for his grandmother, see the story here which has listed some of Obama’s relatives, including his grandmother, who have independently stated that he was in fact born in Kenya.

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/blogs/message.aspx/3074

    As for the various names and nationalities that Obama traveled under or applied for financial aid under, I don’t know either. It’s one of the facts Obama has spent millions trying to conceal. What does Occam say about why he would conceal such things?

    It’s intellectually dishonest to chalk up serious unanswered questions about Obama’s qualifications for the office merely to a psychological need to rationalize racism – as your last post suggests. You can do better than that Paulie.

    In Liberty, with Eternal Vigilance,

    Jim

  104. Jim Duensing

    @ Paulie – the archives for ybs are currently unavailable. They should be available by the weekend.

    I watched the Obama Keyes debate and saw the admission. So did others. The tape is now missing.

    As for his grandmother, see the story here which has listed some of Obama’s relatives, including his grandmother, who have independently stated that he was in fact born in Kenya.

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/blogs/message.aspx/3074

    As for the various names and nationalities that Obama traveled under or applied for financial aid under, I don’t know either. It’s one of the facts Obama has spent millions trying to conceal. What does Occam say about why he would conceal such things?

    It’s intellectually dishonest to chalk up serious unanswered questions about Obama’s qualifications for the office merely to a psychological need to rationalize racism – as your last post suggests. You can do better than that Paulie.

    In Liberty, with Eternal Vigilance,

    Jim

    P.S. Thanks for the ICP. I hear Friday’s bumper music already 🙂

  105. Jim Duensing

    @ Paulie – the archives for ybs are currently unavailable. They should be available by the weekend.

    I watched the Obama Keyes debate and saw the admission. So did others. The tape is now missing.

    As for his grandmother, see the story here which has listed some of Obama’s relatives, including his grandmother, who have independently stated that he was in fact born in Kenya.

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/blogs/message.aspx/3074

    As for the various names and nationalities that Obama traveled under or applied for financial aid under, I don’t know either. It’s one of the facts Obama has spent millions trying to conceal. What does Occam say about why he would conceal such things?

    It’s intellectually dishonest to chalk up serious unanswered questions about Obama’s qualifications for the office merely to a psychological need to rationalize racism – as your last post suggests. You can do better than that Paulie.

    In Liberty, with Eternal Vigilance,

    Jim

    P.S. Thanks for the ICP. I can hear Friday’s bumper music already 🙂

  106. paulie Post author

    As for his grandmother, see the story here which has listed some of Obama’s relatives, including his grandmother, who have independently stated that he was in fact born in Kenya.

    I’ve followed up on the grandmother bit already. That one turned out to be bogus.

    You can look into any other claims at the links posted up a little higher, and links there in, starting with snopes.com and obamaconspiracy.org.

    As for the various names and nationalities that Obama traveled under or applied for financial aid under, I don’t know either. It’s one of the facts Obama has spent millions trying to conceal. What does Occam say about why he would conceal such things?

    What evidence is there that he has traveled under any other names and nationalities?

    Thanks for the ICP. I hear Friday’s bumper music already

    Cool! Glad you liked it.

    I’ll be posting more.

    BTW did you check out the Rap News @ 128?

    They have 5 other episodes at http://thejuicemedia.com/video

    Also, Key of Awesome

    http://www.youtube.com/show/keyofawesome

    here’s their latest…I heard you guys finally got some cold weather in Vegas…

  107. Marc Montoni

    You know… Who cares? A foreign national is just as qualified to screw up the nation as a natural born citizen. While I tend to agree there are unanswered questions that Obama should lay to rest with some transparency, MaoBama is not the first politician to lie his way through his career. Like Mr Cholko, I have serious doubts that the Keystone Kops that make up the American government have the intelligence and forebearance to maintain a 50-year-long conspiracy.

    Remember, these guys can’t catch a 6th-century savage in a cave, can’t deliver mail on time, can’t keep criminals locked up, and can’t keep one American soldier with a conscience from spilling the beans on all sorts of its collective skullduggery…. These college-educated, ‘elite’ people who run the government could not be counted on to successfully pick the lint out of their own navels, much less keep the lid on a 50-year conspiracy.

    Besides, if our $3.5 trillion government was 1/10,000th the size it is now, no one would care who was at the helm. Which is the way it should be.

  108. Fun K. Chicken

    Mr. Montoni…well said!

    Small nit…I didn’t see Mr. Cholks say what you said he said Was it somewhere other than this thread?

  109. the original (?) whatever (not Bob Dole)

    repeating your error only compounds it

    You should stop repeating your dangerously close-to-racist error that several Kenyans, including BOsr’s stepmother, Kenyan Parliamentarians and Kenyan ambassadors are all backwards know-nothings.

  110. Porn Again Christian

    Does Barack Obama’s Kenyan birth and nonAmerican loyalties make him more willing to poison the Gulf of Mexico with BP’s oil, and / or to look the other way when he discovers Dick Cheney’s Halliburton blew the oil rig?

    Yeah! Compare how that lyin’ African reacted to the BP oil spill, with how a good loyal American like George W. Bush reacted after Hurricane Katrina…and 9/11…

    Oh.

  111. Fun K. Chicken

    several Kenyans, including BOsr’s stepmother, Kenyan Parliamentarians and Kenyan ambassadors are all backwards know-nothings.

    More precisely, they never said the things you claim they did.

  112. Marc Montoni

    @ 172 Fun K. Chicken — sorry, I meant Chuck Moulton.

    Sheesh. They don’t even look alike. I’m getting old. Must have been the “ch” sound in both their names.

  113. Sane LP Member

    Let’s put Mr. J. D. on the national television programs, let’s get him nominated, let’s see what most Americans will think of the LP at that point.
    What are his qualifications?
    His finger on the red button of nuclear arms, sitting across the table from Vladimir Putin, dealing with international issues, dealing with 500+ people from other political parties in Washington D.C. .

    I think I am going to find a padded cell somewhere.

  114. paulie Post author

    Sane LP member,

    Let’s put Mr. J. D. on the national television programs, let’s get him nominated, let’s see what most Americans will think of the LP at that point.
    What are his qualifications?
    His finger on the red button of nuclear arms, sitting across the table from Vladimir Putin, dealing with international issues, dealing with 500+ people from other political parties in Washington D.C. .

    I think I am going to find a padded cell somewhere.

    Response:

  115. paulie Post author

    Golden Oldie:

    My April Fool’s day post from 2009


    In a move that few, if any, people saw coming, former US President William J. Clinton is set to announce today that he is joining the Libertarian Party. Clinton first hinted at his new political direction back in 1997, but Libertarians didn’t believe him, and not long afterwards called for his impeachment.

    “What really did it for me this time was the recent “Monday message” from LP communications director Donny Ferguson that said winning is the most important principle,” President Clinton told IPR’s Paulie over a few lines of coke in a Bessemer, Alabama truck stop restroom. “That’s been my view for many years, and I’m glad to finally find a political party with the balls to say it openly.”

    Clinton acknowledged that people may be skeptical of his conversion, but he pointed out “look at my old nemesis Bob Barr. Back in 2002 y’all were working to get him out of Congress. By 2006 he was on your national committee, and two years later he’s your Presidential candidate. If Ol’ Bob can do it, why can’t I?” He also pointed out that former Democratic US Senator Mike Gravel switched from running for the Democratic Party Presidential nomination to that of the Libertarian Party just last year while remaining consistent in his views.

    Bill mentioned that he is working on getting his wife Hillary to switch as well, pointing out that she was a Goldwater girl in 1964, and that her best bet to beat Obama in 2012 will be in the general election rather than in the primaries. He also sent a shout out to Alan Greenspan for introducing him to the works of Ayn Rand.

    Asked about his future political plans, Clinton told Paulie that he was considering running for LNC as well as a future run for US Congress, and will be starting a new civil rights organization to repeal the 22nd Amendment to the US Constitution. “I was hoping to be appointed Ambassador to the UN, but Obama’s being a total dick about it,” he said. “Just because I was the real first black President doesn’t mean he has to be that way.”

  116. Michael H. Wilson

    Someone if they have time may want to check out the blog of Richard Falk. Falk has criticized the 9/11 report and has some connection to the UN. His comments on the report were criticized by Susan Rice the US amb to the UN. Right now I have a lot of other things to do and don’t have to time to follow this up, but it sounds interesting.

  117. Andy

    All right, there’s finally somebody that has announced that they are seeking the Libertarian Party’s Presidential nomination that I can actually support!

    It is still early in the nomination process, so perhaps other people will enter the race and that could change things, but if the nomination were right now and the only candidates were the ones mentioned above (or who have been previously talked about for seeking the LP’s 2012 Presidential nomination) I’d definitely cast my vote for Jim Duensing.

  118. Be Rational

    Most likely reason for hiding the long-form birth certificate:

    It seems obvious that there is something there that Obama doesn’t want the world to see. So, what could it be?

    It’s also nearly impossible to believe that he was not born in Hawaii, as such a cover-up of 50 years of facts disproving such a lie could not be maintained – and the media, despite the conspiracy nonsense about “the media” – the media would love to blow the lid off such a story.

    So, what is on the long-form birth certificate …

    It is most likely something that would prove embarrassing to Obama’s mother – some as yet unknown bit of information or a lie on the form about the father perhaps, regarding the name, race etc Maybe some lie about the mother’s age. So, Obama does not want to release the form. If so, good for him.

    Obama was born in Hawaii. Get over it.

    The LP should never nominate a wacko who cannot see the “truth” on this.

    “Truthers” and “birthers” are too self deluded to ever see the real world.

  119. Gains

    It seems only just to me that before accusing anyone of fraud that one should first provide positive evidence and be prepared with proof.

    The accused does not have to prove defense except in a kangaroo court.

  120. Be Rational

    Building 7 fell because of a defective design.

    The twin towers feel because they were struck by airplanes that exceeded their designed load capacity.

    The fact is that building 7 was a cantilevered design with no redundant support members. This was because it was built in the airspace over another structure and was cheaper than paying to pass support columns through the space below.

    There were 3 supporting, cantilevered beams that were all essential that held up the building. The failure of any one of them would bring down the entire structure. This defect was compounded by the location of generators with pumped-in fuel directly below these beams.

    A fire under the middle-most beam only had to burn long enough and hot enough to weaken this single support member slightly to cause the entire structure to collapse. It did not have to melt or snap, only weaken. The load above would be enough to cause the weakened member to fail. The defect in design was compounded by the foolish location chosen for the generators. Fuel continued to be pumped as the fire burned and the fire burned out of control for hours, fed by a continuous supply of fuel until the beam weakened sufficiently to bring down the entire structure. Videos show the building collapsing from the level where this single beam failed. The center beam failed and that failure defines the collapse that followed.

    The newly constructed replacement building on the same site was built with support columns instead of a cantilevered design. This was a recognition by the engineers that the previous design was flawed – in retrospect, the design appears to have been at best “risky” if not “reckless.”

    Structural engineers, (that is specifically not architects and other types of engineers who have not studied the physics and forces involved in erecting and support of structures), have analyzed this design and pronounced it defective and a total failure. To understand what we’ve all seen and heard on the videos, you have to actually study structural engineering – as I have – and do the calculations, study the physics, study the forces, listen to the “explosions” in the strengths of materials labs as you test materials and the stresses that cause them to fail.

    The twin towers fell because they were hit by airplanes that exceeded the design capacity of the structures. The fires did not bring the buildings down. They were doomed to fall once they were struck. The fact that the building struck second fell first is additional proof that cascade failure, not fire, brought down the structures.

    The second building was hit lower down resulting in greater loads being carried by the weakened remaining supporting members. Bolts, welds, joints and members can be heard “exploding” as they failed, one by one, in a cascade that resulted in the catastrophic failure that we all saw. The greater load meant that it would fall first.

    Bin Laden and many of his group studied structural engineering. They knew the zone of vulnerability of the structures.

    Had the first building struck been hit a bit higher up, the load above the impact level would have been insufficient to result in failure.

    Had the second building struck been hit many floors lower down, the greater strength of the building itself at lower levels required to support the load above would have been sufficient to withstand the forces of impact and the structure would not have suffered catastrophic failure.

    Osama Bin Laden and his co-conspirators were and are much smarter and better educated than the 911 truthers with their wacko alternate universe fantasies.

    And don’t bother to reference the phony “architects and engineers” list for 911 truth. Only structural engineers are qualified to analyze the details of this collapse. That list is full of landscape architects, ee engineers etc who are not qualified. The last time I checked there were fewer than 5 on the list with any related qualifications even on a superficial basis, and we don’t actually know their reasons for signing up. Perhaps those 5 (and many others on the list), like myself, support further study of the failure of the twin towers and building 7 in order to reveal the cover-up of the defective design of these three structures. This however is a far cry from any endorsement of the loony ideas of discredited, incompetent and unemployed ex-“professor” Jones (who never studied structures, nor the physics of structures)and other fellow loonies.

    The LP should never nominate a 911 truther wacko for any office.

    We can, however, support the study of the design of the failed structures themselves, in order to improve design of major high-rise structures in the future and call for full disclosure of any additional facts related to the attacks that may have been withheld by the government.

  121. Michael H. Wilson

    BR I have not problem with what we know as of today regarding the collapse of the buildings. I just think it might be wise to check out what the man has to say.
    Never hurts to listen.

  122. Gains

    Mistrust of government and conspiracy buffs go hand in hand. If you exclude those who have a beef with the power elite, you are in trouble in the freedom movement. If those who have a beef with the power elite but then don’t mind common sense rules like simple due process in their rhetoric, they are becoming as their foes. No?

  123. paulie Post author

    Mistrust of government and conspiracy buffs go hand in hand. If you exclude those who have a beef with the power elite, you are in trouble in the freedom movement.

    True.

  124. paulie Post author

    Be Rational,

    Are you a structural engineer yourself? You seem to have some pretty strong opinions on structural engineering questions while maintaining that anyone who is not a structural engineer is not qualified to have an opinion on it, even people in related fields.

    I’ll note, briefly, that the structural engineering issue is one of many mysteries surrounding the official regime endorsed conspiracy theory of 9/11.

    IMO the best tack to take is to call for a new investigation, not to pre-suppose what that investigation will uncover. That should be something that truthers and non-truthers can unite around.

  125. paulie Post author

    On the other hand, BR does make sense with this:

    Most likely reason for hiding the long-form birth certificate:

    It seems obvious that there is something there that Obama doesn’t want the world to see. So, what could it be?

    It’s also nearly impossible to believe that he was not born in Hawaii, as such a cover-up of 50 years of facts disproving such a lie could not be maintained – and the media, despite the conspiracy nonsense about “the media” – the media would love to blow the lid off such a story.

    So, what is on the long-form birth certificate …

    It is most likely something that would prove embarrassing to Obama’s mother – some as yet unknown bit of information or a lie on the form about the father perhaps, regarding the name, race etc Maybe some lie about the mother’s age. So, Obama does not want to release the form. If so, good for him.

    Obama was born in Hawaii. Get over it.

  126. George Phillies

    @198
    More plausibly, Obama has realized that if you coddle people of a certain mindset they will simply lurch from one bizarre idea to the next, so coddling them is not the answer.

  127. paulie Post author

    Posted on another thread by someone else:

    “Hawaii doesn’t release long form birth certificates, per their web site.”

  128. Observer

    I can’t get over the smugness of people who think they’ve debunked any theories Truthers might have (Be Rational @ 93.) It’s a huge movement, with many questions. Some of us don’t have theories; we just don’t believe the governmnet’s fable because of holes, inconsistencies, and things that have been proven to be lies. Plus, he posts under a fake name, without listing qualifications, and we’re supposed to say “Sure, whatever you say?” I don’t think so.

    I’d be very proud to have someone who dares to ask the hard questions as our presidential candidate.

  129. paulie Post author

    It’s a huge movement, with many questions. Some of us don’t have theories; we just don’t believe the government’s fable because of holes, inconsistencies, and things that have been proven to be lies.

    Exactly.

    Plus, he posts under a fake name, without listing qualifications

    That part is fine. It’s only when he says that only structural engineers are qualified to have an opinion that I have to ask whether he is in fact himself a structural engineer, since he certainly has an opinion.

    I must say Nevada is the #1 LP newsmaker lately!! 3 pres candidates… has there ever been a state with more?

    Not that I know of.

    Anyone know?

  130. Andy

    “The conspiracy to foist a Kenyan fraudulently into office would have to go back at least about 50 years.”

    It would not have to go back 50 years. There are lots of people who have faked things this. Obama’s status could very well have been faked and nobody at the time knew that one day he’d run for President.

    Incidentily, I’ve read some articles about Obama’s family having been CIA operatives. Here’s one from LewRockwell.com:

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig10/ross-s3.1.1.html

    I think that the “elite” have several people that they groom for office. Barrack Obama was just one of many. As it turned out when the 2008 election came around the “elite” thought that he was the person who was best suited to carry out their agenda. I doubt that this was planned from his birth.

    I don’t know for a fact whether or not Obama fits the legal Natural Born citizen qualification to hold the office of President or not, but what I do know is that the Obama camp has behaved in suspicious manner over this issue and there is evidence that they may be hiding something.

    I’d be in favor of a thorough investigation into this issue and if it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Obama does not fit the Natural Born citizen criteria to hold the office of President then I’d favor his impeachment and removal from office over the issue (as well as criminal penalties for fraud).

    If I were running for office as a Libertarian Party candidate I would not make this issue a big part of my campaign, but if somebody asked me about it that is what I’d say.

    The Natural Born citizen requirement to hold the office of President is more of a constitutional issue than a libertarian issue, however, I do believe that elected officials ought to be held accountable to their oath to “Protect and defend the Constitution,” therefore if Obama does not fit the legal requirement to hold the office of President he ought to be removed from the office.

    One good thing that could come from Obama’s removal from office over the issue of his citizenship status is that if he were removed from office for this, every piece of legislation that he signed while in office would automatically be null and void. This would be a very, very good thing from a libertarian perspective.

  131. Be Rational

    One of my University majors was structural engineering and I’ve worked in structural engineering, and focused on design of very large structures involving welds and joints of the kind seen in major structures such as the ones under discussion.

    When we watch and hear the videos of the 3 buildings as they suffered cascade failure and subsequently fell we can see and hear these structures behaving as we have studied these failures in various “materials labs” and it is clear that these buildings did not fall due to any of the proposed conspiracy nut ideas put out by the untrained.

    There is no substitute for years of study and training in structures in comprehension of these structural failures.

    I have watched all the “truther” videos and read all of their nonsense. And it truly is nonsense based on ignorance. It is akin to a watching a child whose experience is limited to a tin-can-and-string telephone tryng to explain a cell phone.

    Architects are specialized artists and never set foot in a strenghts of materials lab as part of their studies unless they simultaneously study engineering and most other engineers do not study any of the structural design courses and essentially do not study or work in the same field as civil engineers specializing in structures also known as structural engineers.

    When you hear that someone is an “engineer” you have to get the first part that describes what kind of engineer to have any clue to what they do or actually studied.

  132. George Phillies

    @215 There is structural engineering. There is also Fire Safety Engineering. My university has the only doctoral program in the field in the world. Immediately after the collapse there was a major all-volunteer effort with industrial support to investigate why the Towers collapsed, notably whether there was something wrong in the design. After all, we have had large numbers of major fires in steel structures, and only one — involving battleships at Pearl Harbor — actually led to structural failure. The eventual conclusion was major damage, plus destruction of water lines leading to sprinklers on the affected floors, plus first fuel fire and then paper and other contents fire, plus — it goes on a piece — led to the collapse. The later FEMA-funded study came to the same conclusion and filled in details. Several other buildings on-site had a large skyscraper fall on or into them from a great height.

    One might suggest that one of our party’s problems is that we end up collecting people whose patterns of thought lead them to “the “truther” videos and read all of their nonsense. And it truly is nonsense based on ignorance. It is akin to a watching a child whose experience is limited to a tin-can-and-string telephone trying to explain a cell phone.” and given a choice prefer the wrong material. The same people seem to consistently buy into birtherism, tentherism, climate change denial, oil from the core of the earth, immunization denial after the core paper was concluded by most of its own authors to be based on fraud, and a vast range of other nonsense. One might propose that there is some sort of higher-order cognitive malfunction.

  133. Joe Keg

    What is Tentherism? Is that taking the tenth amendment to the US Constitution seriously? Or something else?

  134. B4Liberty

    @215 and 216

    Would you please take a moment and answer these questions?

    1) NIST admitted that WTC7 fell at free-fall acceleration for 2.5 seconds. How could fires cause this?

    2) Firefighters and cleanup workers reported seeing molten steel at Ground Zero. Abolhassan Astaneh, a professor of civil engineering at the UC Berkeley who was contracted by NSF to study the evidence at Ground Zero, told PBS, “I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center.” http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june07/overpass_05-10.html
    How could jet fuel and office fires cause melting of girders?

    3) How can fires created by jet fuel and office contents persist for weeks? http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/evidence/newscientist_rubblefires.html

    4) If there were no explosives used, then how did university chemists and physicists find active thermitic material in the dust from the WTC?

    I would also appreciate your analysis of these two scientific reports.

    http://www.journalof911studies.com/articles/WTCHighTemp2.pdf

    http://www.bentham.org/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.htm?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM

    Thank you for your time.

  135. George Phillies

    @218 Falling is caused by gravity, not fire, and your other questions are equally stupid. If you are surprised that burning material, buried in large amounts, stays hot for a while, you have obviously not seen one of the standard methods of beach barbecue.

  136. George Phillies

    @210

    Is there a difference? The Nazis didn’t breed the people they were planning on putting through hell on earth, so that future generations of Nazis could do the same. The Confederate pedophiles — all those 11-year-old girl slaves, remember — did.

  137. Mashed Potato with a Twist

    @ 210, 220 Not sure how youtube picks which second of, say, a 3.5 minute clip like that one to show as the image that shows up when the youtube clip is embedded like this. Anyone know?

  138. Thomas L. Knapp

    @215,

    “NIST admitted that WTC7 fell at free-fall acceleration for 2.5 seconds.”

    Then NIST needs to stop smoking crack for awhile. The beginning of the building’s collapse was noted a little after 2pm when one corner began to sag. The collapse did not complete until after 5pm. More than three hours is a damn sight longer than 2.5 seconds.

  139. Gains

    Ever built a camp fire?

    There are all sorts. One my racially insensitive dad would call an indian fire. Small contained, dry wood, little smoke. very efficient, not too hot, you lie close to it to stay warm. Then there are bon fires. Those you do not get too close to.

    Would the person arguing that jet fuel burns at some constant rate, like to addresss the temperature differences in these two fires? If jet fuel burns at a constant temperature, why doesn’t wood? There is more to combustion than some magic number different fuels heat up to.

    The higher ambient temperature of the wood in a bonfire makes the wood break down into volatile gases faster than a smaller fire and thus a faster hotter reaction.

    You can take wood even hotter! if you blow air into the combustion, you will also increase temperature by causing faster reactions. A good cyclonic wind can take wood or coal even high enough to melt steel.

    Can you say medieval forge?

    If wood or coal can do it, jet fuel sure can.

    Interesting side note: Nearly everything in the interior of a modern office building is made of plastic. Plastic is hydrocarbons arranged in complex ways. Jet fuel is hydrocarbons arranged in not nearly as complex ways. Get each of them hot enough, and you will have trouble telling the two apart chemically with a bunch of free carbon and hydrogen in gas form looking for some oxygen to join up with.

    While I question the truthfulness of the 9/11 report, this bit of “evidence” of 9/11 truth is bunkum. The only people that should use it are those who are trying to discredit a call for a better investigation.

  140. paulie Post author

    One of my University majors was structural engineering and I’ve worked in structural engineering, and focused on design of very large structures involving welds and joints of the kind seen in major structures such as the ones under discussion.

    OK, I can appreciate that you have expertise in one particular field related to questions about 9/11. But there are lots and lots of different questions about all sorts of things related to 9/11, not just structural engineering issues and WTC 7.

  141. Alan Pyeatt

    I haven’t read this entire thread so I apologize if this was already posted, but you may be interested in this article from Fire Engineering magazine: http://www.fireengineering.com/index/articles/display/133237/articles/fire-engineering/volume-155/issue-1/departments/editors-opinion/elling-out-the-investigation.html. Please note this quote: “Fire Engineering has good reason to believe that the ‘official investigation’ blessed by FEMA and run by the American Society of Civil Engineers is a half-baked farce that may already have been commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure.”

    That’s not some 9-11 “Troof Nut,” that’s from a trade magazine for Fire Safety Engineering professionals.

    Be Rational @ 215: Since you’ve taken structural design, you know that one of the very first principles structural engineers are taught is that you DON’T design structures to depend on a single member, but ensure redundancy. And yet, we’re supposed to believe that not only did the design engineers miss this basic principle, but so did the plan checkers that reviewed their design? Seriously? The probability of such an event probably lies in the order of, say, the possibility that the only 3 high-rise structural steel frame buildings to collapse due to fire IN HISTORY would occur in the same block, on the same day. In other words, not very damn likely, never mind the fact that instead of collapsing eccentrically, they collapsed into their own footprints. Even the South Tower, despite the fact that it was not damaged symmetrically by the airplane, but rather the damage was concentrated around one corner of the building. And yet, it collapsed perfectly symmetrically. Preposterous.

    It never ceases to amaze me how people who should know better can discount the near-free fall speed of the collapse. The only downward force in these buildings’ collapse was gravitational force. And as we all know, the rate of speed of a body in free fall is determined by gravitational acceleration, according to the equation F=ma. ANY opposing force would slow down the acceleration of such a body (in which case, it would not be in free fall conditions, and would accelerate at a slower-than-free fall rate). And yet, despite tons and tons of steel SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to resist gravitational forces (as well as forces induced by wind, etc.) hardly slowed the building’s rate of acceleration at all? Are you kidding me?

    People really need to get their heads out of the sand and find out who REALLY murdered almost 3,000 people in 2001. And we can start by asking the question, “Who benefits?”

  142. Observer

    BR @ 215: ” I have watched all the “truther” videos and read all of their nonsense. And it truly is nonsense based on ignorance. ”

    Hey, how did Sarah Palin get into this conversation?

  143. Observer

    BR, since you know so much, what is your explanation for the BBC announcing that tower 7 had fallen, 20 minutes before it did? Heretofore, of course, a building had NEVER collapsed due to fire.

  144. Gains

    I think I would be better convinced of needing more reports if it could be shown that independent investigation was not allowed. Not that everyone got access but that there was at least a multitude of investigations that included private agencies not connected to government should be a minimum.

    What was it the celluloid cowpoke used to say? “Trust but verify.” Probably not bad advice.

  145. Observer

    G @ 230: There haven’t been ANY independent investigations. The crime scenes were immediately dismanteled, and the debris shipped away. This might be one of the reasons the questions persist: What are they trying to hide?

  146. George Phillies

    226

    There were two separate investigations, one by FEMA and a separate one by the Firesafety community. A close personal friend, who is also a leading expert on fire analyses, was on the core volunteer team. They had unrestricted access to the site and recovered material.

    Observer is simply making up or quoting nonsense that is simply not true.

  147. Gains

    Well maybe leaked cables or something that shows pre-cognizance of the attack? Is there anything solid, non-circumstantial that I could sink prosecutorial teeth into?

  148. Observer

    George, thank you for the information about the
    investigation from your school. I’m looking forward to studying it. I do wonder, however, why you feel the need to ridicule me? Have you learned your tactics from the Root supporters?

    I know that you are a physics professor, and I’d love for you to address a couple of the points listed in the “Top 40 Reasons To Doubt the Official Story” in the link above.

  149. paulie Post author

    @ 210, 220 Not sure how youtube picks which second of, say, a 3.5 minute clip like that one to show as the image that shows up when the youtube clip is embedded like this. Anyone know?

    No.

    But, my interest in Head Roc’s video @ 210 has pretty much nothing to do with that screenshot, which is from somewhere in the middle of the video.

  150. Alan Pyeatt

    Gains @234: You might be interested in this: http://www.wtc7.net/foreknowledge.html, or this: http://www.journalof911studies.com/articles/Article_5_118Witnesses_WorldTradeCenter.pdf.

    You might also find this interesting: http://www2.ae911truth.org/downloads/29_Structural-Civil_Engineers_2009-06-17.pdf.

    As you can see, I get most of my information from the Architects and Engineers for 9-11 Truth website at http://ae911truth.org/en/home.html. Nothing like hearing it from industry professionals.

  151. paulie Post author

    It would not have to go back 50 years. There are lots of people who have faked things this. Obama’s status could very well have been faked and nobody at the time knew that one day he’d run for President.

    Incidentily, I’ve read some articles about Obama’s family having been CIA operatives. Here’s one from LewRockwell.com:

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig10/ross-s3.1.1.html

    I think that the “elite” have several people that they groom for office. Barrack Obama was just one of many. As it turned out when the 2008 election came around the “elite” thought that he was the person who was best suited to carry out their agenda. I doubt that this was planned from his birth.

    Given what you say, how hard would it have been for them to exclude people not born in the US so as not to get caught in an obvious lie? If numerous people are groomed for power, it would seem pretty stupid not to weed out the obvious rejects. After all, far more people want power and will do anything they can to get it than can actually have it. It would seem to be a lot more work to pull something like that off than to simply find another one of many possible people to suit the same purpose, and the benefits of selecting one who was not born in the US seem negligible at best.

    I don’t know for a fact whether or not Obama fits the legal Natural Born citizen qualification to hold the office of President or not, but what I do know is that the Obama camp has behaved in suspicious manner over this issue and there is evidence that they may be hiding something.

    I’d be in favor of a thorough investigation into this issue and if it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Obama does not fit the Natural Born citizen criteria to hold the office of President then I’d favor his impeachment and removal from office over the issue (as well as criminal penalties for fraud).

    You could begin by reviewing the massive amounts of information at http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/, http://tesibria.typepad.com/whats_your_evidence/, http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/, http://badfiction.typepad.com/ , http://barackryphal.blogspot.com/ , http://ohforgoodnesssake.com/ and others.

    So far, every birther claim I have looked into has not panned out.

    For example, a sign that notes some place in Kenya as the birthplace of Barack Obama actually refers to his father. Another such sign is a bad photoshop of an actual sign in (Oman?) that welcomes people to that country. The full transcript of the interview with Sarah Obama makes clear that she did not in fact say that she saw the current president of the US being born in Kenya. The “Kenyan birth certificate” being passed around on the internet is not even a good imitation of a Kenyan birth certificate; you can order one just as good for yourself from any number of websites.

    If I were running for office as a Libertarian Party candidate I would not make this issue a big part of my campaign, but if somebody asked me about it that is what I’d say.

    The Natural Born citizen requirement to hold the office of President is more of a constitutional issue than a libertarian issue, however, I do believe that elected officials ought to be held accountable to their oath to “Protect and defend the Constitution,” therefore if Obama does not fit the legal requirement to hold the office of President he ought to be removed from the office.

    What I would say would bring the question back around to Obama’s disastrous policies and get it away from the “issue” of where he was born. The previous president’s policies were equally alien to the spirit America is supposed to embody and represent, even if people didn’t question his nation of birth. And the one before him was just as bad, even though he didn’t get into office through stolen elections. It’s the policies that these would-be tyrants perpetuate that are the real issue, not where they are born. For that matter, regardless of who carried out the 9/11 attacks, the policy prescription should be the same: bring the troops home, restore civil liberties, and so on.

    One good thing that could come from Obama’s removal from office over the issue of his citizenship status is that if he were removed from office for this, every piece of legislation that he signed while in office would automatically be null and void. This would be a very, very good thing from a libertarian perspective.

    However, that’s not a reason to remove him from office for bogus reasons. He should be removed from office for war crimes and abuse of presidential powers, not birth certificates or lack thereof.

  152. paulie Post author

    Listened to Darryl Perry and Jim Duensing on YBS radio this morning. Unfortunately they did not play any of my bumper music. Turns out it’s actually three times a week, so I missed a couple of shows.

    Would be good to start getting press releases and opinion articles from Duensing, as we are already getting from other candidates and possible candidates.

  153. Andy

    “Given what you say, how hard would it have been for them to exclude people not born in the US so as not to get caught in an obvious lie?”

    Obama not being a Natural Born citizen could very well be something that the “elite” were looking for in a candidate. Why? It is perfect blackmail. If this is true, they could dangle this over Obama’s head any time he they thought he was getting out of line and/or not doing things to their satisfaction.

    Once again, I’m not saying for sure whether or not the claims against Obama’s citizenship status are true, but I believe it is a legitimate question that bears further investigation.

    I know that the Governor of Hawaii (who is a Democrat) recently looked into this and he said that he couldn’t find any record of Obama’s birth at the hospital where he was supposedly born.

    This situation certainly looks fishy.

  154. wolfefan

    Hi Andy – do you have a link to a primary source for that? I keep hearing it from people but no one seems to know where that meme started. I’d be interested if you do have a primary source that you could link to.

  155. paulie Post author

    I know that the Governor of Hawaii (who is a Democrat) recently looked into this and he said that he couldn’t find any record of Obama’s birth at the hospital where he was supposedly born.

    Time to dispel yet another myth, since people can’t be bothered with following links I already posted,

    See

    http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2011/01/21/slate-birther-conspiracy-and-illiteracy/

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/weigel/archive/2011/01/21/fun-new-birther-conspiracy-based-upon-illiteracy.aspx

    The above states

    Dave Weigel reports a timely article

    On January 18, Hawaii Gov. Neil Abercrombie fielded a question from the Honolulu Star-Advertiser about Barack Obama’s birth certificate. Abercrombie, who knew Barack Obama, Sr and Ann Dunham when they reared the future president, said the state had evidence of Obama’s birth — as spokespeople for the Department of Health have been saying since 2008. (They’ve confirmed this to me, too.)

    “It was actually written, I am told,” said Abercrombie, “this is what our investigation is showing, it actually exists in the archives, written down.”
    Here’s the headline that got in a WorldNetDaily story by Jerome Corsi:
    Hawaii governor can’t find Obama birth certificate

    Yes kids, this is your brain on birtherism…

    And then there are those who take these foolish assertions and internalize them and look as a result, as foolish as the ones originally making the claim.
    Reading comprehension has never been a strong part of the Birther movement.

    And that, folks, is how bullshit spreads. But then, bullshit at least serves a useful function as fertilizer.

    Rather than me running back and forth repeatedly, you could begin by reviewing the massive amounts of information at http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/, http://tesibria.typepad.com/whats_your_evidence/, http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/, http://badfiction.typepad.com/ , http://barackryphal.blogspot.com/ , http://ohforgoodnesssake.com/ and others.

    Read everything on those sites – that is, open up each article and read the full thing, not just what appears on the front page. And bear in mind that older posts go back for multiple pages; read all the old posts in full as well.

    Then, if there are still any questions, perhaps we can discuss the issue at that point.

    Although, really, why bother?

    Bush was not any more loyal to the constitution just because no one claims he was born in another country (that I know of). Clinton was not loyal to the constitution either, even though he didn’t steal two elections to get into office as shrub did. Bush Sr. was not loyal to the constitution, even though he did not lie about oral sex in the white house and obstruct investigations, etc.

    All of these people are disloyal to the ideas on which America is based.

    The idea that being native born, or natural born however you wish to define it, makes someone a more loyal American and more fit for office has been disproven by the available evidence from real life.

    If anything, that clause should be amended out of the constitution.

    While it is still in place, I favor the broader interpretation under which any of you who were born in the US and are old enough (Obama: check and check) would be qualified for the presidency, but I would not.

  156. wolfefan

    Thanks, paulie – I appreciate it. I should have known it would be someone like Jerome Corsi. Why a party like the Constitution party that talks about the importance of Christianity would have any truck with such a known fabricator is beyond me.

  157. wolfefan

    Hi Andy –

    Thanks for sending me the link. It’s not a primary source, but at least I now know for sure what you were talking about. As paulie has pointed out, the headline is not backed up by the article, and the article isn’t backed up by the link it contains. Thanks anyway – now I know.

  158. George Phillies

    Mr Duensing is, however, the more rational of our two climate-denial Presidential candidates, since he actually thinks there are facts that support his case. The much less rational is Mr. Root, who simply claims it is a liberal conspiracy. Mind you, either of them is as a result of their position on reality unsuited to be our Presidential candidate, but Duensing at least realizes that there is a reality.

    By the way, Jim, it still fell straight down because gravity points that way.

  159. Robert Capozzi

    gp250: …unsuited to be our Presidential candidate…

    me: Please expand. I assume this is your opinion for a litmus test for suitability. Is it your view that any L nominee must buy into the theory of global climate change to be suitable? Or is it simply your preference that the L candidate more or less agree with you on this one issue.

    To be clear, I lean toward the theory, with a dose of skepticism, but I don’t see this one as a gating item. To be fair, there do seem to be many facts that call this particular theory into question. I’d be surprised if Root’s denialism is based solely on reflexive conspiracy theories…I give him more credit than that! Such dismissiveness doesn’t seem to advance understanding.

  160. George Phillies

    I view ‘believe in anthropogenic climate change’ as like ‘believe in evolution’ and ‘believe the earth is round’. It’s not a litmus test, and large numbers of people who are not libertarians pass, but the opposite is an epic fail outcome.

    It’s a ‘we should not run someone who will be a colossal embarrassment’.

  161. whatever

    True fact: The Governor of Hawaii (who is a Democrat) recently looked into this and couldn’t find any record of Obama’s birth at the hospital where he was supposedly born.

    The Weigelists are in full doublethink denial mode on this one. There ain’t no long form certificate in Hawaii, just affidavits and ledgers and whatnot. Weigel is mentally ill to deny the Star-Advertiser interview conveys anything else.

  162. paulie Post author

    Whatever, whatever.

    “On January 18, Hawaii Gov. Neil Abercrombie fielded a question from the Honolulu Star-Advertiser about Barack Obama’s birth certificate. Abercrombie, who knew Barack Obama, Sr and Ann Dunham when they reared the future president, said the state had evidence of Obama’s birth — as spokespeople for the Department of Health have been saying since 2008. (They’ve confirmed this to me, too.)

    “It was actually written, I am told,” said Abercrombie, “this is what our investigation is showing, it actually exists in the archives, written down.”

    Nothing in there about not being able to find anything. Quite the opposite.

    Repeating Corsi’s bullshit and bolding it does not make it anything other than Corsi’s bullshit.

  163. Robert Capozzi

    gp253: I view ‘believe in anthropogenic climate change’ as like ‘believe in evolution’ and ‘believe the earth is round’. It’s not a litmus test, and large numbers of people who are not libertarians pass, but the opposite is an epic fail outcome.

    me: Interesting. Evolution and oblate spheroid theory took time to become widely accepted — I suspect more time than has passed since the climate-change theory was advanced. I’m not sure that climate-change theory is as widely accepted now as you seem to believe. Advocates of the theory were, after all, referring to it as “global warming” just a few short years ago, and dunno about MA, but it’s been freakin’ cold in DC this winter, and last winter we had some hellacious snowstorms, the largest in decades.

    Still, I’d rather not have a L prez candidate sounding like Rush Limbaugh on the issue, either. Or Al Gore, for that matter. After the meta-issue of absolutism in an otherwise relativistic world, I’d say environmental issues are the L Achilles Heal. For ex., government is the biggest polluter comes across like a digression, since it IS largely beside the point. Spewing toxins into the commons requires something more than a “torts” response, IMO.

  164. Thomas L. Knapp

    “Advocates of the theory were, after all, referring to it as ‘global warming’ just a few short years ago, and dunno about MA, but it’s been freakin’ cold in DC this winter, and last winter we had some hellacious snowstorms, the largest in decades.”

    Local weather /= global climate.

  165. paulie Post author

    @ 257 correct. However, I still think that climate destabilization is more accurate than warming per se.

    BTW, what position if any do Wrights, Burns, and any other possible candidates for the LP prez nomination take on this issue?

  166. paulie Post author

    More seriously…

    http://praxeology.net/unblog07-06.htm#06

    and

    http://praxeology.net/unblog07-06.htm#07

    Roderick Long, from above link:

    I suspect I’m one of the few political bloggers who has no opinion about global warming. My problem is that I know too many intelligent and sincere people, with way more scientific expertise than mine, on both sides of the issue. Many on the left seem to assume that anyone who’s skeptical about the cause and/or extent of global warming must be in the pay of the corporations; and many on the right seem to assume that anyone who thinks global warming is serious and manmade is just a shill for big government. I know from personal experience that both of those assumptions are just plain false.

    But I suspect the stereotypes – both stereotypes – are largely true of all too many of the politicians and lobbyists involved in the debate. As I’ve written elsewhere:

    We might compare the alliance between government and big business to the alliance between church and state in the Middle Ages. Of course it’s in the interest of both parties to maintain the alliance – but all the same, each side would like to be the dominant partner, so it’s no surprise that the history of such alliances will often look like a history of conflict and antipathy, as each side struggles to get the upper hand. But this struggle must be read against a common background framework of cooperation to maintain the system of control.

    Now the main difference, insofar as there is one, between the Establishment Left and the Establishment Right in this country is that while both are the running-dog lackeys of the neofascist government-business alliance, the Establishment Left somewhat favours a shift in power toward government, while the Establishment Right somewhat favours a shift in power toward business. Playing up the threat of global warming thus serves the interests of the statocratic faction, while playing down that threat serves the interests of the plutocratic faction – and so you’d expect to see the two sides taking the sides they’re taking, regardless of what the truth actually is. But it’s just a squabble within the ruling class.

    In fact, of course, if global warming does turn out to be serious and manmade, that shouldn’t lead us to grant more power to the state; the more serious the problem, the more disastrous any centralised, bureaucratic solution is likely to be. And if on the other hand global warming turns out to have been overhyped, that shouldn’t lead us into complacency about the plutocracy either. Both halves of the ruling-class machine need to be dismantled, whatever the weather may bring.

  167. paulie Post author

    Jim @ 164 I watched the Obama Keyes debate and saw the admission. So did others. The tape is now missing.

    3 debates:

    http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/184058-1
    10/21/04

    http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/184143-1
    10/26/04

    http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/183783-1
    09/29/04

    All the transcripts are at

    http://www.keyesarchives.com/transcripts.php?p=2

    Here is the actual exchange that is the closest fit to what you are talking about

    http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2011/02/california-supreme-court-won%e2%80%99t-hear-keyes-v-bowen-on-presidential-qualifications/comment-page-1/#comment-319586

    All three videos are posted at C-SPAN, all three transcripts at keyesarchive.com. If you can find an exchange that more closely matches what you are describing, please post that portion.

    In the meantime, the closest thing Obama said was that he was running for Senator, not Minister (pastor) of Illinois. And Keyes was at that point questioning his religion, not his citizenship.

    Are you sure you watched this debate?

  168. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    particularly the last line – sounds as if you may be upset by this ………..

    Global Warming, too too late by at least a decade.

    [a] we are in the middle of a minor ice age

    [b] carbon has been pouring to the air for a couple of centuries.

    [c] if, in 2010, humans were to bring their green house effects to zero it would still take decades to reverse the trend. And as far as those occasional cold spells, just part of the transition.

  169. Robert Capozzi

    p260, this RL passage is more-or-less my view, too:

    “I suspect I’m one of the few political bloggers who has no opinion about global warming. My problem is that I know too many intelligent and sincere people, with way more scientific expertise than mine, on both sides of the issue.”

    This I find a bit simplistic, grandiose and irresponsible:

    “In fact, of course, if global warming does turn out to be serious and manmade, that shouldn’t lead us to grant more power to the state; the more serious the problem, the more disastrous any centralised, bureaucratic solution is likely to be. And if on the other hand global warming turns out to have been overhyped, that shouldn’t lead us into complacency about the plutocracy either. Both halves of the ruling-class machine need to be dismantled, whatever the weather may bring.”

    Long misses or avoids my point: That polluting should not be viewed as a “right.” Theoretically, at least, a green-tax shift could happen in tandem with a proportional reduction in the State. We could shift a shrinking revenue base to dissuade pollution and greenhouse gases, for example. Like anything in politics, yes, it has risks. Doing absolutely nothing to protect our common resources and possibly even the climate is just too detached for even me (if that’s possible!).

  170. paulie Post author

    Doing absolutely nothing to protect our common resources and possibly even the climate is just too detached for even me (if that’s possible!).

    Red herring. I don’t know anyone who advocates that. Certainly not me.

  171. Robert Capozzi

    p266, OK, what do you or RL suggest for addressing ubiquitous pollution/greenhouse gasses, then?

  172. Michael H. Wilson

    Yo Teach I got my hand raised!

    For your inquiry at # 267 you might do two simple things that save bundles of money.

    First bring the military home from abroad and the fleets in the Med and West Pacific need to be discontinued. Our military is one of the world’s biggest users of petroleum.

    Secondly open the inner city transit market to competition. That would possible reduce ambient urban pollution by 30%. Some think it could be reduced by more.

    I actually have more but gotta run.

  173. paulie Post author

    Robert,

    That’s a HUGE topic…Michael H. Wilson is correct, but just barely scratching the surface.

    I’ll try to give you a detailed answer tomorrow….it’s late and I’m wiped out.

  174. Thomas L. Knapp

    @267,

    One way of reducing pollution would be to draw down the huge taxpayer subsidies of it.

    One such subsidy is that of shipping by truck on the Interstate highway system. Passenger car drivers subsidize the 18-wheelers’ much greater wear and tear on the roads.

    In the absence of that subsidy, companies would likely

    a) shift much of their shipping to rail, which ton for ton, mile for mile, produces about 1/7th the greeenhouse emissions of trucking (source: “Comparison of external costs of rail and truck freight transportation,” David J. Forkenbrock, Public Policy Center, The University of Iowa, 1999).

    b) localize production where possible to reduce shipping needs.

  175. Robert Capozzi

    Mhw, p, and tk, generally, I like your ideas. I do wonder whether they scratch the surface of the problem, and I wonder how actionable they are. Specifically:

    Mhw: First bring the military home from abroad and the fleets in the Med and West Pacific need to be discontinued. Our military is one of the world’s biggest users of petroleum.

    Me: Yes, I favor that for a lot of reasons. I’d like to see data that suggests that “one of the biggest users” aggregated in this manner amounts to a significant portion of pollution (and, if we buy the theory, greenhouse gasses). Government and military are large institutions, so they will by definition “one of the biggest.” It seems to be a very indirect and very difficult-to-institute side issue. If global climate change is real, waiting for the US to shift its foreign policy seems irresponsible and largely unresponsive to me.

    Mhw: Secondly open the inner city transit market to competition. That would possible reduce ambient urban pollution by 30%. Some think it could be reduced by more.

    Me: Lotta challenges here. Inner cities are governed by state and local governments. Coordinating their policies runs against the federalism that most Ls and I prefer. More competition could easily lead to MORE pollution, too, depending on what modes were selected and what modes were de-emphasized. I would need to see the methodology that elicits 30%, since that number seems fantastical, i.e., implausible.

    Tk: One way of reducing pollution would be to draw down the huge taxpayer subsidies of it. One such subsidy is that of shipping by truck on the Interstate highway system. Passenger car drivers subsidize the 18-wheelers’ much greater wear and tear on the roads.

    Me: Aside from the existence of federal interstates, I’m unaware of direct subsidies to truckers. What are they? I’d certainly favor privatizing or toll-ifying the interstates, and making the truckers bear the full cost of their operation. Now, I would argue that allowing spewing of pollutants into the air is tantamount to an indirect subsidy, hence my call for a shift toward taxing spewing. Wear and tear on the roads seems to be a side issue. A shift toward rail has many benefits, but the railway beds are not nearly as ubiquitous as highways, so trucks are not going to go away.

    Whether any of these three good ideas – alone or in tandem – addresses the enormity of the problem presented by the prospect of global climate change is suspect for me. Color me skeptical. Of course, I am also skeptical of climate change theory, but I certainly believe that pollution is aggression, and I favor steps to dissuade it.

  176. Thomas L. Knapp

    Bob @ 273,

    “Aside from the existence of federal interstates, I’m unaware of direct subsidies to truckers. What are they?”

    The financing of those interstates is arranged such that large shipping vehicles pay much less than the costs they incur in wear/tear/maintenance.

    A typical 18-wheeler gets 5-7 miles per gallon, which means its driver/owner pays about 5-7 times as much gasoline tax as the the person driving the 25-35 mpg car — but that fully-loaded 18-wheeler does much more than 5-7 times the damage to the road surface (according to GAO, 9600 times as much — not a typo).

  177. Robert Capozzi

    tk274, how would you make truckers pay for the damages to the roads, then? If the gas tax doesn’t do it, what would?

    Regardless, this seems like a side issue. As it stands now, aside from pollution taxes like gas taxes, spewers can spew gunk into the air unchecked. I call that aggression. Since there is no plausible means to enforce property rights has evolved, I’d in the meantime (at least) want to dissuade polluting aggression directly.

    Singling out truckers because the roads get beat up doesn’t address the main point, that I can see.

  178. Thomas L. Knapp

    Bob,

    “how would you make truckers pay for the damages to the roads, then? If the gas tax doesn’t do it, what would?”

    There are any number of ways of doing that, in either a state or private road environment.

    I haven’t looked lately to see how it went, but not too long ago there was apparently an impending experiment/pilot program in Pennsylvania with dedicated lanes for trucks, using a toll system. I’m pretty sure the Reason Foundation wrote the proposal for it.

    Another way would be a specific implementation of the “green tax shift” you generally propose. That could be implemented in any number of ways (a higher gas tax for heavier vehicles; a surcharge on vehicle licensure that actually accounts for the damage differential; in a private road system, higher tolls; whatever).

    You say it’s a side issue, but that’s because you’re moving away from the point.

    We were talking about how to reduce pollution.

    One way of reducing pollution is to stop subsidizing it.

    Trucking produces more pollution per ton shipped per mile than rail.

    Manufacturers use trucks in preference to rail because trucks are heavily subsidized.

    Stop subsidizing trucking and you’ll get less of it. Since it happens that trucking pollutes more than the alternative, when you get less trucking you’ll get less pollution.

  179. Robert Capozzi

    tk, one of the reasons I LIKE the green tax shift is that it’s reasonably neutral among modes of transportation. It doesn’t pick and choose, singling out trucks, for ex. If trucking is the most efficient means for transportation, then truck it. But the social costs of pollution would need to become internalized, IMO.

    If a green tax shift can work in tandem to solve other challenges, like road-damage dissuasion, I’m for that, too. It seems likely that greener trucks might come forward with an increase in pollution taxes, and that’s helpful, too.

    Developing a toll system is capital and time intensive. I surely don’t rule it out, but implementation would take many resources. A weight surcharge would seem quicker to implement, and likely would require less capital and little time.

    The relative ease of instituting a green-tax shift is also its weakness. If the tax burden is increased rather than shifted, that’s counter-productive. As an L, I am aware of that risk. I prefer to tie increased green taxes to either SS or even a negative income tax-type scheme, but, again, pols have a way of log rolling such things into more government. The only answer I have for that is “eternal vigilance.”

    Still, all else equal, if the tax burden falls something like 95% on labor and capital and 5% on polluting behavior, the opposite proportion would IMO be far preferable.

  180. Thomas L. Knapp

    Bob @ 277,

    Once again you are missing the point with respect to road damage.

    The point is not that trucks do more road damage than cars.

    The point is that having the car drivers subsidize the truck drivers instead of charging them the full cost of that damage makes trucking artificially more attractive from a financial standpoint than rail.

    Since trucks also pollute more than rail, the government is effectively using taxpayer money to buy more pollution.

    It should stop doing that.

  181. Robert Capozzi

    tk, 278, I get your point. You’re not getting mine. I favor ending cross subsidies that likely lead to more pollution. But addressing that cross subsidy doesn’t directly address pollution as aggression, which cars, truck and trains all do. We all are damaged by pollution, and there are heavier polluters and less heavy ones.

    Unwinding this is not easy. We can address one major aspect with a major investment in infrastructure, while the polluting continues. We can attempt to increase fees on trucks which addresses on aspect of the problem, but the ROI on that may take decades to show dividends, or would find major resistance from the trucking industry.

    The green tax shift addresses more generally the pollution of the commons problem, and can be phased in to avoid major dislocations.

  182. Michael H. Wilson

    Doing drive-bye comments because of my schedule.

    Studies have shown that a large % of the pollution comes from a small number of cars, usually older ones driven by low income owners. Public transit doesn’t serve poor areas very well. Increase the service and you increase the chances low income people will take it. Additionally one groups claims that widespread use of jitneys will reduce urban pollution by as much as 70%. I think their numbers are way to high, but I do think 30% is closer to the mark.

    And you’ll have to do the research on the military. The numbers are out there and I think I have posted them here before. They may be associated with the fuel use of the military.

  183. paulie Post author

    I do wonder whether they scratch the surface of the problem

    I haven’t even started scratching the surface yet. There’s a lot to be said on this subject. I’ll try to get to it today.

  184. 9/11 was an outside job

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1084585

    Many millions of people hold conspiracy theories; they believe that powerful people have worked together in order to withhold the truth about some important practice or some terrible event. A recent example is the belief, widespread in some parts of the world, that the attacks of 9/11 were carried out not by Al Qaeda, but by Israel or the United States. Those who subscribe to conspiracy theories may create serious risks, including risks of violence, and the existence of such theories raises significant challenges for policy and law. The first challenge is to understand the mechanisms by which conspiracy theories prosper; the second challenge is to understand how such theories might be undermined. Such theories typically spread as a result of identifiable cognitive blunders, operating in conjunction with informational and reputational influences. A distinctive feature of conspiracy theories is their self-sealing quality. Conspiracy theorists are not likely to be persuaded by an attempt to dispel their theories; they may even characterize that very attempt as further proof of the conspiracy. Because those who hold conspiracy theories typically suffer from a crippled epistemology, in accordance with which it is rational to hold such theories, the best response consists in cognitive infiltration of extremist groups. Various policy dilemmas, such as the question whether it is better for government to rebut conspiracy theories or to ignore them, are explored in this light.

  185. Andy

    “In fact, I think I would be the first President of American Indian descent.”

    Jim Duensing’s of American Indian descent?!?! He doesn’t look American Indian to me. I would have guessed that he was of German descent or something like that. If he’s got any American Indian in him it can’t be much.

  186. paulie Post author

    Actually, he does look American Indian to me. Difference in perception I guess. The radio show is on three times a week, you can ask him yourself.

    Still no archives, as far as I know 🙁

  187. Andy

    “A recent example is the belief, widespread in some parts of the world, that the attacks of 9/11 were carried out not by Al Qaeda, but by Israel or the United States.”

    Al Queda is a CIA creation.

  188. Andy

    “paulie // Feb 20, 2011 at 2:44 am

    Actually, he does look American Indian to me.”

    Not that it really matters, but he doesn’t look American Indian to me. He just looks like a white guy.

    “The radio show is on three times a week, you can ask him yourself.”

    What radio show?

  189. Don Lake, from private email

    Historian and opponent William Estabrook Chancellor publicized the rumors, based on supposed [Harding] family research, but perhaps reflecting no more than local gossip.[80]

    The rumors may have been sustained by a statement Harding allegedly made to newspaperman James W. Faulkner on the subject, which he perhaps meant to be dismissive: “How do I know, Jim? One of my ancestors may have jumped the fence.”[81]

    However, while there are gaps in the historical record, studies of his family tree have not found evidence of an African-American ancestor.[82]

    If the rumors are ever proven to be true, by some definitions Harding would be considered to be the first African-American president.[12]

  190. Don Lake, from private email

    Senate Majority Leader by his Republican colleagues, and the 31st Vice President of the United States.

    He [Curtis] was the first person with significant acknowledged Native American ancestry and the first person with significant acknowledged non-European ancestry to reach [for] either of the two highest offices in the United States government’s executive branch.

    His maternal ancestry was three-quarters’ Native American, of ethnic Kaw, Osage and Pottawatomie ancestry.

    Curtis spent years of childhood living with his maternal grandparents on their Kaw / Kansas River reservation. He was Hoover’s mate on both the successful 1928 run and the unsuccessful 1932 effort.

  191. whatever

    Nothing in there about not being able to find anything.

    This should not be complicated. Are you being deliberately obtuse? Abercrombie made a big deal about how he was going to prove his political opponents wrong by producing the actual source documents from the vital records file, ie the implied “long-form birth certificate” hand-signed by witnesses from Kapiolani hospital. Abercrombie could not produce this. He gave this interview then announced he was a gonna shut up.

    Star-Advertiser: You stirred up quite a controversy with your comments regarding birthers and your plans to release more information regarding President Barack Obama’s birth certificate. How is that coming?

    Abercrombie: “I got a letter from someone the other day who was genuinely concerned about it; it is not all just political agenda. They were talking on Olelo last night about this; it has a political implication for 2012 that we simply cannot have.

    (Abercrombie said there is a recording of the birth in the State Archives and he wants to use that.) **

    “It was actually written I am told, this is what our investigation is showing, it actually exists in the archives, written down …

    “…What I can do, and all I have ever said, is that I am going to see to it as governor that I can verify to anyone who is honest about it that this is the case.

    “If there is a political agenda then there is nothing I can do about that, nor can the president.”

    ——————————–
    ** paraphrase by Star-Advertiser of key information

  192. paulie Post author

    Not that it really matters, but he doesn’t look American Indian to me. He just looks like a white guy.

    You already said that. I said I disagree.

  193. paulie Post author

    @ 289 Are you being deliberately obtuse?

    It seems you are.

    “Abercrombie said there is a recording of the birth in the State Archives …It was actually written I am told, this is what our investigation is showing, it actually exists in the archives, written down …”

    Where is the part where he said he could not find it? He did not say that, it was a distortion invented by Corsi.

    Now, if you are asking, why didn’t he follow up on his promise to release new information

    Three possibilities arise

    1) He has not done it yet, but will

    2) Formenting birtherism is part of Obama’s agenda to make his opponents look stupid and insane and deflect from genuine opposition; Abercombie was ordered to not release actually existing proof of Obama’s birth so as to keep birther fucktardery alive on purpose

    or

    3) Another possibility discussed above, it is possible that Obama is in fact concealing something – not his place of birth, but possibly that his father was someone else, parents marital status, or some other fact.

    Any of these explanations seem infinitely more plausible than any birther theories, for reasons previously explored in this thread.

    Regardless, it remains a fact that Abercombie never said he failed to find anything; that was a deliberate lie that Corsi made up.

  194. wolfefan

    “Whatever” provides no example of Abercrombie saying he would produce source documents. Also keep in mind that Abercrombie would have no authority to release anything beyond what has already been released. It would be illegal. If he did release anything, birthers would say that the fact that he released it illegally proves that it’s not authentic. Of course Corsi made it up. It’s what he does. It’s how he makes his living. It’s the only reason anyone cares about him.

    Why does a Wayne Root piece get more media traction than a Mark Hinkle one? Overheated rhetoric. Unverifiable claims. Name-calling. Insinuation and innuendo. It’s more interesting and more incendiary, although the actual policy prescriptions within each piece may be exactly the same. It’s what Corsi does too, except that he is far more of a fabulist than Root. Red meat feeds.

  195. LibertarianGirl

    Duensing is a German name , he touts his Indian American heritage mostly to be glib and funny. THE DUDE IS WHITE , SO EFFIN WHITE.

    if he has any Indian blood it is a tiny amount from generations back . Im sure he’s qualified it to me 1,000 times but my ears turn off when I hear bullshit!

    yall have met his mom and dad , theyare both white as hell , lol

    he’s Indian like Im Mexican , my grandma was 1/4 or something

  196. paulie Post author

    “Whatever” provides no example of Abercrombie saying he would produce source documents. Also keep in mind that Abercrombie would have no authority to release anything beyond what has already been released. It would be illegal. If he did release anything, birthers would say that the fact that he released it illegally proves that it’s not authentic.

    Good points.

  197. paulie Post author

    @293, 297 That just goes to show what happens when I take birtherism half seriously 🙂

    @296 actually until I cut my dredlocks off , I was 1/2 black

    Yes, but do you have any Jewish/Russian/Mongol/Siberian/Alsatian in you?

  198. Andy

    “LibertarianGirl // Feb 20, 2011 at 9:59 am

    Duensing is a German name , he touts his Indian American heritage mostly to be glib and funny. THE DUDE IS WHITE , SO EFFIN WHITE.

    if he has any Indian blood it is a tiny amount from generations back . Im sure he’s qualified it to me 1,000 times but my ears turn off when I hear bullshit!

    yall have met his mom and dad , theyare both white as hell , lol”

    Yeah, that’s what I thought. Whatever American Indian ancestory he has I imagine it can’t be much.

    “he’s Indian like Im Mexican , my grandma was 1/4 or something”

    I had a greatgrandmother from South America so I suppose I could refer to myself as hispanic or latino. This greatgrandmother was a white Spainiard and the rest of my ancestors that I’m aware of were Dutch, British, Irish, German, and French, so I think that it would be a bit misleading if I refered to myself as being hispanic or latino.

  199. Andy

    “Michael H. Wilson // Feb 21, 2011 at 12:53 am

    That’s okay Andy. I once new a man from Mexico. He had red hair and his last name was O’Brien. He spoke great Spanish and no English. He was Hispanic fer sure.”

    This is an example of why census data will often say something like “Hispanic or Latino of any race.”

    The guy in your example sounds like somebody of Irish ancestory whose family moved to Mexico. He may have been born and raised in Mexico, so this would make him a Mexican national, but his ethnicity would still be Irish.

  200. Don Lake, from private email

    Lake: my instructions from the Commerce Department were always the same. ‘People are what they say they are ………..’

    Irish Mexicans, yes, recruited directly from the ole sod, especially via the ‘papal telegraph’ of priests. Also flip flops from the USA forces.

    If turn coats got caught by the American forces, they were often hung to death. The US Marine Corps Hymm, ‘from the halls of Montezuma’ references the American – Mexican War around 1848.

    A couple of dozen Irish men whom deserted to the Mexican cause were left standing on boxes as the battle concluded. When the US forces scaled the Mexican fort, the boxes were kicked out from under them.

    Mexico: some Italians, some ‘Port E Geese’, fair amount of Koreans (1880s?), lots of Irish. The stereo typical ‘Senor O’Shay’.

  201. paulie Post author

    Just repeated the myth about Obama’s grandmother being present when he was born in Kenya…LOLOL People really should read the full transcript of this, not the partial cut off version.

  202. wolfefan

    People also never explain why Obama’s mom would have bothered to go to Kenya for the birth, and why she would choose to go to Mombasa, which is a long, long way from where the Kenyan Obama family lives. Nairobi is much closer.

  203. paulie Post author

    People also never explain why Obama’s mom would have bothered to go to Kenya for the birth, and why she would choose to go to Mombasa, which is a long, long way from where the Kenyan Obama family lives. Nairobi is much closer.

    It sounds exotic and scary. But if you think about it, it makes no sense. Why not Canada or Mexico, or even Japan? Also, if you scroll up, there are a lot more problems with this story we discussed a while back.

  204. LibertarianGirl

    i predict he will make Libertarians for Birthers group , his mom and dad will fund some super cool posters and he will have an event that will well attended at Nat Con 2012 , then he will grow bored and move on to the next contentious topic…

  205. LibertarianGirl

    I dont even have the patience to actually look into or research for myself the whole ‘birther’ thing. It just doesn’t matter. Im not sure what people expect to accomplish by focusing on it but if you ask me the ‘establishment’ and Obama are laughing their asses off.

    ITS CALLED THE BAIT AND SWITCH , LOOK AT THIS ‘EXOTIC AND SCARY’ TOPIC AND YOU WONT SEE THE HUGE BAT ABOUT TO F**K YOU

  206. paulie Post author

    LG @309 Exactly. I have actually taken the time to research it a good bit just recently, and my opinion has remained exactly what you say.

    @308 Libertarians for Birthers group

    It’s a constitutional issue if it were true, but not a libertarian one. Nothing about where Obama was born makes him more or less libertarian.

    At least with 9/11, you can certainly make the case that a lot of public policy has changed as a result of 9/11. With Obama, yes, he is screwing over the country, but he is only continuing what Bush was already doing.

    What difference would it make if, somehow, implausibly, he was actually born in Africa? Is there some libertarian reason for that clause in the constitution? Not as far as I know. In fact, as was pointed out to Dondero on the State of the Union thread, many people who immigrate to America are more “American” in their beliefs than many of the people who are born here.

  207. paulie Post author

    what about Jim-Jim Duensing/Burns

    In the extremely likely event that they actually win a plurality of the 2012 vote in your state, Nevada’s electors would not be allowed to vote for them in the electoral college, according to the US Constitution. Of course, one of them could just “pull a Cheney” and claim to reside in a different state, since we all know that this scenario is something we should worry about 😉

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