Thomas M. Sipos: Wayne Allyn Root on Israel

From Thomas M. Sipos over at Libertarian Peacenik:

The Mideast remains America’s foreign policy hot spot — and political hot potato. It’s the locale of our current (and potentially future) wars.

The classic libertarian position is one of foreign non-intervention. Peace and friendship with all nations, alliances and entanglements with none.

However, Libertarian embarrassment Wayne Allyn Root has flip-flopped so much on foreign policy over these past four years, one wonders what he really believes — in his heart — about America’s Mideast policy.

Texas Libertarian Party activist John Jay Myers offers some insight into Root’s heart, based on his personal talks with Root. In a publicly posted comment at Independent Political Report [comment #28], Myers writes of Root:

“I don’t really bash anyone as much as Wayne Allyn Root, but there is a reason for that. I am deeply involved in the group [the Libertarian Party], so when some ding-dong comes along claiming to be the Libertarian Party magi, and saying things to my face that contradict himself (and his book), I just can’t let it slide.

“Here are the two things that Wayne said to me that stoke my animosity:

John, you realize we have to be in the Middle East to protect Israel, right?

He [Root] often uses his book as a resource to say that he has changed his mind on our foreign policy. But he told me this after his book was in stores, and he was at my house.

So basically his opinions on foreign policy are a complete fabrication. Or a false front. That is a huge strike against Wayne.

Secondly, he told me in Missouri:

John, you cannot talk bad about Israel and expect to get in the media.

What? What does that even mean? I should be able to talk about whatever or whoever I want. This is America after all….

He [Root] is basically saying there is a group of people so in control of our media, that freedom of speech is no longer an option.

That is a big deal. And if I believed this, as Wayne apparently does, I would be screaming it from the rooftops.

Read Myers’s full account at Independent Political Report [comment #28].

70 thoughts on “Thomas M. Sipos: Wayne Allyn Root on Israel

  1. Jill Pyeatt

    It’s interesting to have this posted on the Anniversary of Rachel Corrie’s murder by an Israeli bulldozer.

  2. RedPhillips

    My question is, did Root say this to Myers in confidence or with the expectation of confidence?

    If so, I don’t think Myers should be revealing a personal conversation. If not, fair game.

    There is enough out there to raise concerns about Root on foreign policy without revealing things said in confidence.

  3. George Phillies

    When you are a politician, you understand you are always on the record, except when you are speaking with a professional news reporter and have established in advance that the remarks are off the record, deep background, not for attribution, or one of those other categories.

  4. Robert Milnes

    Sipos, you still haven’t answered my question-how can you be so right about Root & wrong about Ron Paul?
    Also logically do you support Rand like you support Ron, blindly, knee jerk, like a lemming?

  5. RedPhillips

    “When you are a politician, you understand you are always on the record”

    I understand this is true in reality, but I think there are times when things are said and there is a sort of understood gentleman’s agreement. Was Root expecting his remark to be kept in confidence? It just strikes me as the kind of thing someone would say off the record. Wink, wink. “John, you realize we have to be in the Middle East to protect Israel, right?” Nudge, nudge.

    I’m not crazy about your politics, but if you said something to me privately that I knew you wouldn’t want broadcasted and I knew would hurt you politically, I wouldn’t blab it. To do so strike me as violating a sort of understood gentleman’s code.

  6. JT

    Milnes: “Sipos, you still haven’t answered my question-how can you be so right about Root & wrong about Ron Paul?”

    He obviously cares most about foreign policy, and Ron Paul is as unabashedly libertarian in that area as you can get. Paul is also extremely libertarian on economic issues and on some social issues.

  7. MarcMontoni Post author

    While Rachel Corrie’s story was indeed a saddening one, one wonders where all the activists like her are when the Christian churches in Turkey are being razed by government fiat, and replaced with mosques (a la the former cathedral of Constantinople), and young Christian men are facing jail and torture for “insulting Islam”? Where are they when the Copts in Egypt are being blown up and shot, and young Assyrian girls in Iraq and Syria are forced into prostitution for Muslim customers? Where are all the protests against the ethnic cleansing of Christians from Bethlehem?

    Where are all the activists when “atheists” get stoned to death in Afghan villages? For that matter, why can’t an atheist state his or her nonbelief publicly anywhere in the Middle East, without fear of death?

    Religious minorities in every nation in the Middle East are routinely rounded up, terrorized, and otherwise “encouraged” to leave, to the point that these communities — some of which have survived in the region for a couple of millenia — are now facing complete eradication.

    Why do we think so little of these oppressed people? Why are they invisible to us?

  8. Matt Cholko

    Marc – I think it is because in this country (the USA), it is Islam that seems to be beaten up so badly. In this country, Christians are not the minority, and are not oppressed or hated or whatever, any more than the rest of us. Should we keep in mind that the situation is largely opposite in the middle east? Of course we should. However, that’s much easier said than done.

  9. Michael Cavlan RN

    On the issue of media control, I HAVE been screaming it from the rooftops. I even co-produce a cable access show called Lies and Omissions Of Corporate Media and we discuss Israel and it’s war crimes all the time.

    Along with US war crimes.

  10. Michael Cavlan RN

    Per the OK of Paulie. Annother opportunity to ask Wayne Root the unanswered question. This is my SIXTH attempt to ask this of Wayne Root.

    Per an earlier conversation with Paulie. From a “lefty” supporter of the Campaign For Liberty.
    Also, for the sake of name dropping and “street cred”, I once spoke at an End the Fed Rally in Minneapolis, with Rand Paul.

    This post has been pared and adjusted from the original. In a more respectful tone. Still hard hitting but in a more respectful tone.

    This is a copy and paste from the previous Root article of “progressive model of tax and spend is dead” that he wrote.

    It was unanswered then and still remains.
    So-Here you go

    Wayne Allan Root makes commentary that need to be challenged.

    Comments like Barack Obama is surrounded by a “Socialist Cabal.”

    Obama is surrounded by corporatists. People of the calibre of Timmy Geitner. People with very direct connections to Goldmann Sachs.

    People with ties to Goldmann Sachs are not noted for their “socialist” sensibilities. People like George Soros are not filled with Socialist revolution.

    George Soros and Goldmann Sachs have made a boatload of money from the foreclosure crisis. From the misfortunes of poor folks. Not a very socialists endeavor is it?

    Of course George Soros has lots of money. To fund politics. So does Robert Murdock, Dick Army and the Koch Brothers.

    In a classic example of divide and conquer.

    Mr Root also makes the case that Ireland and others face a deep economic crisis. He says that it is based on the force of Trade Unions and a society that has all those “bennies” being given away to unworthies.

    I lived in Ireland for 15 years. I still have family there. So I have a rather deeper and more immediate contact to what is really going on there than Mr Root. Good old WAR.

    The crisis in Ireland was caused by…….

    BANKERS, DEVELOPERS and other wealthy folks having very direct ties to those in government. In the Fianna Fail, Fine Gael and Labor Parties.

    They pushed to help fuel the economy and real estate bubbles in Ireland.

    Which mirrors pretty damned close what is happening in the United States.

    Ireland does not practice quantitative easing. Unlike the US government.

    So when the bubble pops here, it will hit much harder.

    Maybe then Wayne Allen Root will awaken to reality. I doubt it though.

    Because then Fox News would not have him on the air. Someone has to lead the divide and conquer strategy that the corporate elite have working “both” sides of the one money party system with two corporate wings.

    Consider this a very direct challenge to Wayne Allan Root.

  11. Michael Cavlan RN

    Paulie

    Thanks. Yes you put the question of Goldmann Sachs and George Soros (and the Koch Brothers and Dick Army) correctly.

    How can a “socialist” surrounded by a “socialist cabal” be wealthy Bankers, making money off of poor folks loosing their homes in the foreclosure crisis?

    Oh and if Mr Root does answer this, I will not accept the “Michael Moore” is a socialist and he supports Obama bullshit line.

    Michael Moore has made boatloads of money, from working class people paying to see a movie that is a “critique” of capitalism.

    Michael Moore can call himself a Socialist, it does not make him one. I can call myself an Englishman but it does not make me one. Someone could call me an Englishman (fighting words to this Irishman BTW) but that does not make me one. What would make me an Englishman is, well being English.

    So Wayne Root calling Oily-Bomber a socialist does not make him one.

    It makes Wayne Root a liar. Or not very smart.

    Take your pick.

    Yes, this is again a very direct challenge to Mr Root. To quote Mad Stephen, the Irishman from Braveheart.

    “The Lord says “stop stalling and answer the fooking question.”

  12. George Phillies

    “e Christian churches in Turkey are being razed by government fiat, and replaced with mosques (a la the former cathedral of Constantinople),”

    For the puzzled, Turkey having a rigidly nonreligious government, the event in question took place at the time of the Fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans, more than five centuries ago.

    Readers may contrast this action, in which major urban buildings were taken as loot but the population was left to live, with the behavior of the Christians when they conquered Jerusalem a few centuries earlier.

  13. MarcMontoni Post author

    Phillies alleges:

    For the puzzled, Turkey having a rigidly nonreligious government, the event in question took place at the time of the Fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans, more than five centuries ago.

    Failing to keep up with the news from this decade, are we, George?

    I didn’t say “for example, the Cathedral of Constantinople”, I said “like” what happened to the Cathedral of Constantinople.

    Try to keep up. That kind of crap is still happening, even in modern times.

    There was actually a forced closure incident in Constantinople just back in 2009, where the church was immediately converted into a mosque; however, I don’t remember the name of the church and can’t find it with a generic search at the moment.

    But, George, anyway, can the Patriarch hold mass in Hagia Sophia? Can Orthodox teachers do their job in their Seminary in Halki? Can I build a church or synagogue, or even open a store for books on atheism, in Taksim square?

    By the way, George, Turkey no longer has what can be called a “nonreligious government”; especially not a “rigidly” so one. Your news is about a decade out of date. Islam is once again nearly the religion of state, and people are now routinely prosecuted for “affronts to Islam”.

  14. Gene Berkman

    I am no fan of Wayne Root, but his opponents do seem to spend a lot of time bashing Israel.

    Israel is surrounded by authoritarian regimes that put dissidents in prison, if they are lucky, or just have them eliminated. Arab & Islamic regimes that censor newspapers and book publishers, and exercize even more control over their economy than Israel’s welfare state does.

    The government of Saudi Arabia executes more people in a year than even Gov George W Bush of Texas did, but we don’t hear about that; we hear condemnation of admittedly condemnable acts of the Israeli government, which are often less condemnable than the acts of governments in that region.

    Non-interventionism can be defended for prudential reasons, and for anti-statist reasons. But many so-called libertarians have decided that anti-interventionism should mean anti-Americanism, and Israel gets criticized because it is seen as pro-American.

    There seems to be something wrong with this picture.

  15. Gene Berkman

    To bring the discussion back to Wayne Root, Root is correct when he says that you marginalize yourself in American politics when you bash Israel.

    A simple statement that we do not support everything the Israeli government does, and we think Israel should be independent economically rather than reliant on foreign aid, is one thing.

    But the type of attacks leveled against Israel by some “libertarians” will lead to unhealthy associations with neo-Nazis, Communists and leftover new leftists. Who wants to associate with such losers?

  16. Criticizing Israel

    “Israel gets criticized because it is seen as pro-American.”

    I don’t think that’s the reason…

    “There seems to be something wrong with this picture.”

    In the U.S., it’s politically safer to criticize America (both liberals and conservatives do it), than it is to criticize Israel, a foreign country.

    That’s what’s “wrong with this picture.”

  17. David Colborne

    What Gene said (especially @16), which is a shame – it should be possible to openly state that Israel shouldn’t receive nor require foreign aid from us without being put in the same camp as naive young communists or virulent anti-Semites. Somehow, though, the issue of Israeli “war crimes” keeps cropping up as if that’s somehow germane to whether or not we should be sending them aid (HINT: It doesn’t matter if they’re prosecuting their war with puppies and rainbows and cuddle-hugs and reach-arounds, nor does it matter if their opponents are “noble savages” with ancient wisdom – it’s not our fight and we shouldn’t be involved.), which completely derails the argument and convinces everyone that you just want to cut off aid to spite Israel.

    Here’s the thing: Is Israel guilty of war crimes? Probably. It’s kind of hard to be at war non-stop for over 60 years and not commit a war crime or two. Same holds true for us, honestly. However, I (and most Americans) think it’s more than a little hypocritical that some are so willing to bash on Israelis and ourselves when we blow up a school (accidentally or otherwise) but are perfectly willing to give routine indiscriminate rocket launching into residential neighborhoods or suicide bombers blowing up restaurants a pass because, y’know, Israel (or America) has all the cool toys and it’s just not fair or whatever. Because, y’know, when you’re fighting a war, when two groups of people are trying to kill each other, it’s important that it’s fair.

    Right.

    Personally, I think the entire concept of “war crimes” is ridiculous. When you’re at war, people are going to die – your people and their people, whoever “they” might be. Does it really matter if you’re following “the rules” when you’re killing them? Is your opponent going to follow the rules if they’re losing and they think they can gain an advantage by breaking them (Hint: No.)? I mean, everybody’s dead either way, right?

  18. David Colborne

    @18: Then stop criticizing Israel. Whether Israel is right or wrong has zero bearing on whether or not we should be sending aid and material to them. I don’t care if Israel is a country full of morally pure paladins brought forth from the heavens to show us the One True Path, who treat their enemies fairly and humanely at all times and never take a life that didn’t attempt to take at least one Israeli life first. It doesn’t matter.

    It’s. Not. Our. Fight. Period!

    The same also holds true for the Palestinians. I don’t care if the Israelis enslave the whole lot of them and make them work salt mines in the Negev. I don’t care if Israel rounds up every last person with brown skin into “happy camps” and provides them with free “showers”. Frankly, the two sides can treat each other as magnanimously or as poorly as they wish. I still don’t want a single American dollar being sent by our government in support of either Israel or Palestine because it’s none of our business how people across the globe feel like treating each other.

    Give each other hugs or kill each other off – just leave me alone and keep me out of it.

  19. Andy

    “John, you realize we have to be in the Middle East to protect Israel, right?”

    Who in the hell is “we”? I’m not obligated to be anywhere to protect anything.

    What happened to a non-interventionist foreign policy? What happened to volunteerism?

  20. Moral Statements Are Not Interventionist

    I don’t care if Israel rounds up every last person with brown skin into “happy camps” and provides them with free “showers”.

    Wow. Imagine if someone said that — but reversed “Israel” for “the Arabs”, and “person with brown skin” for “Jew.”

    I say, Libertarians should advocate government non-intervention — but should also condemn evil actions by any and all foreign governments, no?

    Libertarians do condemn Communism, Naziism, racism, apartheid, etc., even when committed by foreign governments, no?

  21. Andy

    “Gene Berkman // Mar 16, 2011 at 5:48 pm

    To bring the discussion back to Wayne Root, Root is correct when he says that you marginalize yourself in American politics when you bash Israel.”

    You marginalize yourself with people who aren’t going to vote for you anyway. Also, how is saying that the US tax payers should not be on the hook for Israel the same as “bashing” Israel? Why should any self-respecting libertarian support any coercive government?

  22. FKC

    Some people love him, others hate him, but Root is definitely the focus of everyone’s attention at IPR. No one can argue with that.

  23. Gene Berkman

    Andy @ 23 – “You marginalize yourself with people who aren’t going to vote for you anyway…”

    Given election statistics over 40 years, Libertarians need to be more attractive to “people who aren’t going to vote for us anyway” – or they will never consider voting for us.

    “…how is saying that the US tax payers should not be on the hook for Israel the same as “bashing” Israel.”

    By itself, it isn’t. But only attacking foreign aid to Israel, or only attacking Israel’s internal policies while ignoring even greater repression in Arab regimes, is rightly seen as one-sided.

    Israel receives several billion dollars a year in military aid. The US government has just agreed to sell $60 billion in arms and military equipment to the government of Saudi Arabia, which is far more repressive, more racists even, than Israel. Where is the outrage over that?

  24. Andy

    Gene Berkman said: “Given election statistics over 40 years, Libertarians need to be more attractive to people who aren’t going to vote for us ‘anyway’ – or they will never consider voting for us.”

    I meant people who WON’T vote for us under any circumstance. People who aren’t libertarians and won’t become libertarians no matter how much we kowtow to them. These people are a waste of time. Let the Democrats and Republicans have them.

    You can only reach those who are reachable. Over half the population doesn’t even bother voting. That’s a huge market. Many people who are registered to vote are registered with no party, as in they are independents. These people on average are easier to reach out to than the typical Democrcat or Republican.

  25. Gene Berkman

    @ 22 – I agree with all your points.

    Many anti-interventionists – including Ron Paul -routinely defend non-interventionism with a form of moral nihilism that I don’t think is compatible with libertarianism.

    Such moral nihilism is not taken seriously outside libertarian circles anyway. Even other opponents of interventionism normally make moral judgments – often misguided – in advocating a pull-back of U.S. foreign intervention.

  26. Red Phillips

    “and Israel gets criticized because it is seen as pro-American.”

    I don’t think that is the primary dynamic here. I do agree that the level of vitriol aimed at Israel is disproportionate and doesn’t necessarily serve the cause of non-intervention well, but I think that animosity towards Israel is a reaction to its perceived disproportionate influence on our foreign policy and its knee-jerk apologists. When one hears over and over 1.) that Israel can do no wrong 2.) that in every conflict involving Israel that Israel is automatically in the right 3.) that America has some sort of natural (Divine even) responsibility to protect Israel, and 4.) that to believe otherwise makes one an anti-Semite, it tends to irk people. So they then reactively embrace the counter-narrative that Israel is actually uniquely bad. The truth, as is usually the case, is somewhere in the middle. Israel is neither uniquely bad nor perfect. It is undeniably correct, however, that Israel does have a disproportionate influence on our foreign policy. This can be addressed directly, however, without embracing and becoming emotionally invested in the counter-narrative.

  27. Andy

    “By itself, it isn’t. But only attacking foreign aid to Israel, or only attacking Israel’s internal policies while ignoring even greater repression in Arab regimes, is rightly seen as one-sided.”

    I agree that all foreign aid should be cut off, and the focus on that should be more than just Israel, however, the fact is that Israel has probably been the biggest recipient of foreign aid and they’ve got a powerful lobby – AIPAC – which actively pushes for it. Also, whenever anyone points this out, they automatically get labeled as an “anti-Semite” due to hyper-sensitive political correctness. This makes people afraid to talk about it due to fear of being labeled in a negative manner. If anyone talks about cutting off foreign aid to some other country they don’t get labeled as some kind of bigot.

    I’m not saying that there aren’t real anti-Semites out there, because there are, however, just because there are it shouldn’t put the subject in a taboo category. Everyone who opposes foreign aid to Israel and who disagrees with the policies of the Israeli government is not automatically a bigot.

    “Israel receives several billion dollars a year in military aid. The US government has just agreed to sell $60 billion in arms and military equipment to the government of Saudi Arabia, which is far more repressive, more racists even, than Israel. Where is the outrage over that?”

    Well, I’m outraged about that, and everyone else should be as well.

  28. Wayne Root

    John Jay,

    It’s time to stop misrepresenting what I said. The same misrepresentation told over and over again is still a misrepresentation.

    Maybe your memory is faulty. Maybe you heard what you wanted to hear. Either way you are misrepresenting the facts.

    I’m a very reasonable, pragmatic, moderate on Israel.

    What you keep spreading is wrong. What you keep saying yourself about Israel sounds crazy, radical, extreme, and biased.

    You may not mean it. You may be well intentioned. But attacking Israel has set the LP back for 40 years.

    My way is moderate, rational and accepted by a huge majority of Americans.

    I tested my views out at a pro Israel AIPAC event only weeks ago…and they actually accepted it…and were amazed to find that Libertarians are not anti-semetic, irrational, extreme, radical, and hateful towards Israel.

    My views win over friends.

  29. Critisizing Israel

    But only attacking foreign aid to Israel,

    2/3 of all foreign aid goes to Israel and Egypt, and Egypt only gets aid as a bribe not to attack Israel — so Egypt’s aid is to benefit Israel.

    or only attacking Israel’s internal policies while ignoring even greater repression in Arab regimes, is rightly seen as one-sided.

    Everyone knows the Arab regimes are repressive. But Israel claims the moral high ground, “America’s greatest ally” and “the only democracy in the Mideast.”

    So there’s no need to criticize the Arab states. We know they’re bad. But we’re falsely told that Israel is good and noble — so there’s a need to correct the record.

    Another difference is that the reason so many Arab regimes are repressive is because the U.S. — and Israel — help the Arab dictatorships repress their own people, because an Arab democracy might be anti-Israel. (e.g., Algeria’s free election in 1991, and Hamas’s election victory in 2006).

    It’s upsetting to hear that we must support Israel because “it’s the only democracy in the Mideast” — then see Israel (and the U.S., and Britain) stifle attempts at Arab democracies.

    Israel receives several billion dollars a year in military aid. The US government has just agreed to sell $60 billion in arms and military equipment to the government of Saudi Arabia,

    Don’t know that that means, but I heard on Antiwar Radio that we do NOT sell any weapons to Arab states that can be used against Israel.

    Israel has nukes, but the U.S. only allows Arab states to buy weapons that can be used on their own populations.

    Egypt buys U.S. weapons, but can’t buy more than 3 days worth of ammunition.

    Turkey is co-funding the F-35, expecting to be able to buy some — but was recently told that the U.S. won’t give them the computer code for the plane, meaning that the U.S. can always control Turkish planes.

    (Would we treat Israel the same?)

    The Saudis had a hell of a time just buying AWAC planes (radar detectors) in the 1980s.

    We GIVE Israel the best offensive weapons, but will only SELL to Arabs the sort of low grade weapons that can be used to repress their populations.

    Our treatment is hardly even-handed, and it’s definitely subversive to Arab democracies.

  30. paulie

    it’s not our fight and we shouldn’t be involved.

    Agreed as far as the US regime is concerned. Individual Americans and voluntary associations thereof should be free to do as they wish.

    Personally, I think the entire concept of “war crimes” is ridiculous.

    Can’t say I agree. Things like mass rape and intentional murder of civilians, torture, employing weapons of mass destruction, killing troops who have surrendered, and other recognized war crimes, are in fact crimes and should be treated as such.

    Yes, people die in war, but war crimes take it to a different level.

  31. Wayne Root

    Just back from dinner…point I was making to John Jay is not that he is extreme or radical or bad person or anti-Semite. I know he is none of those. None. I know he means well and is well intentioned. I know he honestly cannot understand why Israel should get special treatment from U.S. But by constantly attacking and singling out Israel for criticism…and by saying you would cut off aid insatantly to one of America’s greatest allies…and be damned what the consequences are…perhaps another Holocaust…sounds radical, extreme, biased, hateful and anti-semitic. You will not win this argument. You will turn off a huge majority of Americans- as you have for 40 years with just a few key issues.

    The answer is to moderate your views to achieve your goals. The answer is to give a little to get a little.

    In business I have never in my life gotten 100% of what I wanted. Not once. Compromise is the key to success. You’ve got to have a strategy.

    The correct strategy is not end all foreign aid tomorrow and screw Israel…and damn the consequences.

    My views on Israel have been greatly misrepresented in this forum. I know how to present the issue in a way that doesn’t frighten off the large majority of Americans who deeply love and support Israel.

    My goal is win elections and expand the tent. No attack on Israel will ever allow either goal to be achieved.

  32. paulie

    Wayne,

    Not sure if it matters, but both Sipos’ article and John’s quoted statement are from December.

    As far as aid to Israel goes. I have had Israeli friends tell me they think Israel would be better off without the US help.

  33. paulie

    I don’t care if Israel rounds up every last person with brown skin into “happy camps” and provides them with free “showers”.

    Wow. Imagine if someone said that — but reversed “Israel” for “the Arabs”, and “person with brown skin” for “Jew.”

    To be fair, that’s an out of context quote. I don’t think David is saying that he actually doesn’t care about it as a human being, just that it should be none of the US government’s business. At least if I read the larger comment that is excerpted from correctly.

    I say, Libertarians should advocate government non-intervention — but should also condemn evil actions by any and all foreign governments, no?

    I agree that we should do both.

  34. Bruce Cohen

    Rachel Corrie was not murdered.
    Any statement to the contrary is counter-factual.

    Anyone who repeats said lie after knowing the facts, themselves become a liar.

    Miss Corrie was told to leave the area.
    She was forcibly removed by the Police and Military several times.

    She snuck back into the demolition site and was hiding behind a dirt berm beside where a bulldozer was working. As it moved the earth, the berm fell or Rachel and buried her.

    This was noone’s fault, but Miss Corrie.

    Jill Pyatt is spreading a false Urban Legend, a blood libel. She also has blood on her hands if she keeps repeating it.

  35. David Colborne

    @36: Nailed it. I was being apocryphal to drive home a point – namely, that it’s not the US government’s business how two groups of people thousands of miles away treat each other. I admittedly crossed a line, though, and I apologize. Not only was it morally nihilistic, it detracted from the point I was trying to make.

    I have no problems condemning what I think is evil. Honestly , I’ve historically found more to condemn about the Palestinians and how they treat Israeli civilians than I have the Israelis, who at least feel remorse when they make a mistake and try to make amends. That doesn’t mean I think I should take your money and exercise my belief with it, though.

  36. Israel Doesn't Need U.S. Aid

    Root: “by constantly attacking and singling out Israel for criticism…and by saying you would cut off aid insatantly to one of America’s greatest allies…and be damned what the consequences are…

    Israel doesn’t need U.S. aid. Israel is a socialist nation — whose European style socialized medicine makes Obamacare look like free enterprise.

    If the U.S. cuts off money to Israel, Israel can always divert money from its domestic socialist programs to fund its weaponry.

    If Root admires Israel so much, why doesn’t Root praise Obama for moving toward a more Israeli-style medical system?

    Why is Obama a “Marxist” for stealing money from some Americans to give to other Americans — but it’s not “Marxist” to steal money from Americans to give to Israelis?

  37. John Jay Myers

    For the record the reposting of this took me off guard. I have been trying to be relatively nice.

    I don’t believe that I was misrepresenting Wayne, but being that we do not have a time machine, there is no way to prove or disprove it, so it is probably unfair to repost it.

    That being said, I pretty much agree completely with what Red Phillips said on this subject at #28. I feel Israel has undo influence on our foreign policy, and we can not really protect Israel without maintaining bases all over the world to do it. We can not afford to do that, and obviously people have different takes on Israel itself.

    The reason that I mention Israel by name is because it is always the country mentioned by name when I say “We need to bring our troops home from everywhere”, someone will say “but what about protecting Israel?”, if they were to say “But what about protecting Australia?” I would have the same reaction.

    I do have other disagreements with Israel on their policies, to list quick examples like the flotilla, like the occupation of the West Bank, , you must also include foreign aid to surrounding countries like Egypt etc, but I would like for none of this to matter because I truly would like to stay out of it all.

    There are many people who say that what we do just holds back Israel unfairly from doing what they want to do, I say they should do what they want to do, and we should stay out of it as a country.

    Again, this is an old post, which I did not encourage.

  38. Bruce Cohen

    Jill Lieatt @ 40
    Wikipedia is notoriously dishonest on the subject of Israel.

    They are also very anti-freedom and pro socialism.

    I can play dueling links with you, but Rachel basically committed suicide.

    FACT: Rachel was thrown out of the site multiple times. If they wanted to kill her so badly, why did they keep removing her FOR HER SAFETY?

    FACT: Some of the Cops there were reprimanded for not just cuffing and stuffing her when she kept going back and endangering her own life.

    FACT: Ms. Pyatt is an anti-Semite

    FACT: Here is the promised ‘dueling link’ to the dishonest Wikipedia entry:
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf24.html#p
    Title: MYTH – “Rachel Corrie was murdered by Israel while she was peacefully protesting against the illegal demolition of a Palestinian home.”

  39. Alan Pyeatt

    Bruce @42: Has it never occurred to you, that when you use phrases like “Jill Lieatt @ 40” everyone on this thread sees quite clearly how childish you are? That’s why I don’t even bother responding to your insults and misrepresentations any more. It’s far easier just to sit back and watch you destroy your own credibility, instead.

    But since I’ve lowered myself to respond in this instance, let me address this piece of bull shit: “FACT: Ms. Pyatt is an anti-Semite.” No, that is not a fact. Here are a few facts for you: Jill gave me a tie for Christmas which has a JEWISH man’s family crest all over it. I wear the same JEWISH man’s family crest on my jacket lapel quite often. Jill and I were introduced by a JEWISH friend who attended our wedding, and with whom we still have dinner quite often. are you starting to get the picture? And despite her challenge, you still have not produced one shred of evidence that either one of us are anti-semitic.

    Maybe you’re foolish enough to believe your own drivel. But nobody else is buying it.

    If you want to polish the knobs of a bunch of Middle Eastern theocrats, go ahead. But it’s absolutely disgusting for you to insult the memory of a brave young woman who gave her life protecting innocent people’s homes. BTW, your link (which includes several statements that contradict eyewitness accounts) neglects to mention the fact that when Rachel Corrie was killed, there were 5 children in the house that was being bulldozed: http://www.democracynow.org/2005/8/17/as_unarmed_idf_soldiers_evacuate_settlers.

  40. Gains

    The Libertarian Trans-Arabic Militia Chartered Flight 2317 is now departing for the following locations: Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Saudi Arabia, and Israel. Palestinian supporters on the left and Israeli supporters on the right please and remember that the use of the aisle-way and the restrooms while in flight is a privilege, not a right.

    Please refrain from any and all fratricide until you have arrived at your destination. Disabling or otherwise interfering with fallacy detection equipment in the restroom is a federal offense. Repeated disruption on the plane while in flight may cause the captain to turn on the seat belt sign in which case you will be issued a complimentary personal urinal.

    While murdering friends this June remember: Only Gains Airways guarantees round-trip to one way ticket conversion, quick batch processing of family remains and new members to our frequent flyer club “Double Cross” get a complimentary child sized return cargo coffin as a signing bonus this month.

    If you are traveling with family or friends, please ask the attendant for a complimentary Lost Companion Discount Card good for 10% off all Philosophic Treachery branded books and supplies at participating duty free shops.

    We want to thank you for flying Gains Airways. We know that you can choose from many carriers when traveling to and from your Disney Resorts: Ally Sniping Summer Adventure destinations.

  41. Historical Revisionism

    Martin Luther King was not murdered.
    Any statement to the contrary is counter-factual.

    Anyone who repeats said lie after knowing the facts, themselves become a liar.

    Martin Luther King was told to leave the area.
    He was forcibly removed by the Police several times.

    He snuck back into Memphis and was hiding in a motel where marksmen were working. As the marksman moved the trigger, Martin Luther King fell.

    This was noone’s fault, but Martin Luther King’s.

  42. Red Phillips

    “and by saying you would cut off aid insatantly to one of America’s greatest allies”

    Mr. Root, actually I think cutting off foreign aid to every country immediately is one of the easier parts of this mess.

  43. JT

    Wayne: “But attacking Israel has set the LP back for 40 years.”

    I also dislike it when Libertarians constantly criticize also. But the question is: Do you consider ending foreign aid and withdrawing troops from the Middle East to be “attacking Israel”? I don’t.

    Wayne: “and by saying you would cut off aid insatantly to one of America’s greatest allies…and be damned what the consequences are…perhaps another Holocaust…sounds radical, extreme, biased, hateful and anti-semitic.”

    Israel’s military is the most powerful in the Middle East. It would still be the strongest without U.S. aid of $3 billion a year. There’s no danger of another Holocaust without U.S. aid to Israel.

  44. Jill Pyeatt

    JT @ 49: “Do you consider ending foreign aid and withdrawing troops from the Middle East to be “attacking Israel”? I don’t.”

    I don’t, either. I actually don’t see where Libertarians criticize Israel, and I certainly spend plenty of time on the Internet. Maybe someone can do some research, and post an article here with all the attacks on Israel that you find from Libertarians. Perhaps it will be an eye opener for many of us.

    :

  45. Ayn R. Key

    Wayne, since you are reading IPR and commenting on posts, perhaps you can spare some time to comment on the recent Julian Assange post.

  46. Michael H. Wilson

    Bruce I doubt that you will pay much attention to this, but the present day state of Israel is based on a religious book. Supporting that state violate the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

  47. Gains

    Behold the power of tribal identity.

    As soon as anyone says “Israel is…” or “Blacks are…” or “The Vatican is…” they are two steps down the road to a bigoted statement without even knowing it.

    Bigotry is not found in motivation or intent, but in affect in the mind of the observer. Therefore to make laws regarding bigotry is impossible without greater injustice; BUT to not recognize the affect in others in our actions when it hurts them is still a failing that borders on the use of force or fraud.

    It feels to me like this lack of libertarian ethic in our own filters for our own actions lends to these dysfunctional conversations and it seemingly prevents us from ever touching on the truths that might help find justice in the subject.

    Mr. Cohen is not the problem some would suggest. I think that his approach is merely a symptom displayed differently but often present just as strongly in most of the people that bother to engage this topic. Part of the frustration I hear ringing through in his posts is a hyperbolic mirroring and miming of the people that are insulting him at a very real level.

  48. Painful Truths

    Gains: Bigotry is not found in motivation or intent, but in affect in the mind of the observer…. to not recognize the affect in others in our actions when it hurts them is still a failing that borders on the use of force or fraud.

    Granted, some Jews wince when Israel is criticized because they interpret it as anti-Semitic.

    So what’s the solution? Do we remain silent about Israel’s human rights violations: http://mondoweiss.net/2011/03/schnabel-finally-opens-up-on-israel-you-shouldn%E2%80%99t-have-to-be-jewish-to-be-free-in-israel-it-is-apartheid-that%E2%80%99s-what-it%E2%80%99s-like-over-there-it-is-shocking.html

    By that same logic, should we never mention 9/11 because it makes Muslims wince?

    Truth often hurts. History is full of one racial or religious group harming another.

    How do we discuss painful truths? Deny history and ignore truth, to avoid the pain?

  49. Gains

    PT @56: “How do we discuss painful truths? Deny history and ignore truth, to avoid the pain?”

    I would unequivocally say no.

    But the important part of what “we” need to talk about is not Israel; but the human rights abuses.

    It is the tribal identity that is the sticking issue, if you want to move forward drop it for the irrelevant detail it is. Making the label the issue is why human rights violations continue. We do not seem to want to do the hard work of fixing things. Changing culture takes decades and who has time for that?

    Our problem is that in the arduousness of that task we are forsaking it for our own, frankly, narcissistic endeavors. I would not presume to tell anyone what they can do with their time, so this is not a “focusing the party” message I am trying to make. My point is that this engagement, trying to prove that one evil is a little more evil than the other because of some label that gets so-and -so excited… blah blah blah, is worse than futile.

    It is destructive and we are all guilty of it.

  50. Painful Truths

    But the important part of what “we” need to talk about is not Israel; but the human rights abuses. It is the tribal identity that is the sticking issue, if you want to move forward drop it for the irrelevant detail it is.

    How do you discuss specifics (e.g., human rights abuses in Israel) without mentioning Israel?

    How do you discuss ANY specific abuses (in China, Germany, Libya, Mexico, Zimbabwe) without mentioning the nation state responsible, or in which the abuse occurs?

    Mentioning that a specific human rights abuse is caused by the Israeli (or whatever other) state is not an “irrelevant detail.”

  51. Jill Pyeatt

    I’m a non-discriminator of nations when it comes to human rights abuses. If it’s the US, I talk about it; if it’s Palestine, I talk about it, and if it’s Israel, I do the same. There’s no excuse to treat any human with less than the utmost care and respect (yes, I know that’s a tall order, but we all should try.)

  52. Gains

    PT @58: “Mentioning that a specific human rights abuse is caused by the Israeli (or whatever other) state is not an “irrelevant detail.””

    Oh? I suppose I could be wrong. Please demonstrate the relevance in the frame of your and my own natural authority for judgment. Then please illustrate the social mechanic that statements like:

    “It’s interesting to have this posted on the Anniversary of Rachel Corrie’s murder by an Israeli bulldozer.”*

    …and turns them into humans rights abuse wins in the real world.

    I intend to take your illustration and weigh it against two other alternates with similar analysis:

    1. The same criticism without labeling “X country”

    2. Saying nothing.

    A cost benefit ratio should be interesting to see because it is precisely the measure of “relevance” in the detail.

    HOWEVER never mentioning the word Israel is not what I am advocating.

    My point is being sensitive and that the statements are bigoted. However one frames accusations and talks about changing foreign aid, one MUST be sensitive to the affects it has on those who hear it. It does not matter how “true” your statement is if the only message received on the other side turns out to be heard as: “blah blah blah Israeli bulldozer”.

    IF you are foolhardy enough to engage in taking those step toward bigotry with true but prejudicial words, it feels imperative to me that one take great pains in buffering the certain acerbic internal response in innocent readers. That natural response is perhaps not rational, but it is real and the author is responsible for invoking it.

    * Please I beg the indulgence of the author for singling this statement out. It is the first of its kind in the post and this should NOT bear on the author in the readers mind any more than Israel should in the argument that running over homes (occupied or no) with bulldozers is an act of genocide.

  53. Gains

    BTW before there is an attack from the grammar Nazis* I do understand the difference between “effects” and “affects” but man I seem to have trouble getting the right one in the the right place in a post sometimes in a post even with multiple proof reads.

  54. Painful Truths

    Gains, are you seriously saying we should not mention the specific nations involved?

    In that case, Holocaust books should read: “A nation with some people killed some other people because they were different.”

    And not make any mention of Germans or Jews. By your logic, why do we need to know who killed who? It may offend Germans to hear nasty details about their history.

    The story of the American Indian wars would be reduced to: “Some new people came to a certain land, and found certain other people already living there. Various massacres occurred to clear this certain land of the people living there.”

    By your logic, the student would be left puzzling where this happened, or to who. But it may offend white Europeans to learn of their nasty history.

    Likewise, why do we need to know that blacks enslaved whites. By your logic, let’s just say that some people enslaved other people, and never say which race enslaved which.

  55. Painful Truths

    Oops. Should be whites enslaved blacks. But really, we don’t know to know either way, do we? It may offend to know.

  56. Gains

    PT @62: “Gains, are you seriously saying we should not mention the specific nations involved?”

    We have a serious barrier to understanding evidenced in your post. I have addressed your question and responded with an unequivocal “No” and in reviewing your post, I believe that we are on the same page as to why that is the correct answer.

    Would you mind reviewing @60? My answer in detail is there and I am very interested in your response to it.

    ###

    Truth without empathy is just as dangerous as unrestrained emotion without fact.

  57. Jill Pyeatt

    I believe like Painful Truths. The country exhibiting the immoral behavior should be called out on it. I volunteer to do so.

  58. It is true about Wikipedia

    I know for a fact, that Wikipedia is not always correct. I am not referring to Israel. I am referring that I know people PERSONALLY, that information that was used on Wikipedia has not been valid more than numerous times. I have even tried to contact them and told them this.

  59. Gains

    JP @65:

    I too think that wrong doers should have to face the music. Calling “Israel” out or any country is a wide swath. For instance in Israel, even in their government there are people that agree with you. A great number from what I know.

    My point in much of this is that we seem to make very broad brush statements with very strong language that frustrates attempts at correction. I ask only that people consider more careful framing so that corrective action is not frustrated by default. I think many of us would learn well from practicing empathy for our assumed opponents. Not to feel sorry for them and give up our principles, but so that we can best deliver a strong message to them and get the best chance at reception.

  60. paulie

    I know for a fact, that Wikipedia is not always correct. I am not referring to Israel. I am referring that I know people PERSONALLY, that information that was used on Wikipedia has not been valid more than numerous times. I have even tried to contact them and told them this.

    Apparently you don’t understand the way wikipedia works.

    There’s no “them” to contact. You have to sign up as a wikipedia editor, which anyone can do, and suggest changes/make edits directly. There’s a discussion page on every article where you can challenge information and give grounds for why any given statement is wrong or right, whether it is supported by sources, whether those sources meet wikipedia’s criteria, etc.

  61. TinFoilCap & JockeyShorts to Match

    @28 “It is undeniably correct, however, that Israel does have a disproportionate influence on our foreign policy. ”

    Does anyone really doubt this? Within twenty miles of where the son of a butcher was born holds the majority of American Jews. They as Americans, in all states, are roughly 2% of the American population. WHY should they hold so much power over the foreign affairs of this “mighty” nation? Simple, what Root said to Myers is TRUE! Root and I know it and for any of you to deny it is a mistake on your part. I see that Root is backtracking now, BUT I’m sure he said it, or similar words. Facts don’t lie, friends. RESEARCH will reveal the truth. The truth is Jews possess more than 2% of ownership and high management positions in major American media. Which includes the entertainment industry as well as network news.

    Are “the Jews” the ones behind the conspiracy to “rule” the world? No, just “some” of them as individuals are involved. A group of super-rich elitist are the ones who want to “rule the world”.

    A world with a lot less humans than 7 billion! You know the bunch that are holding back from helping shut down that DEATH poison spewing from Japan at this moment! What’s wrong with millions of more early deaths due to cancer? The ones who didn’t shut the oil leak in the Gulf off in the first 72 hours! What the hey, what’s wrong with millions of more deaths due to tainted seafood? Hell there are TOO many* people on the earth already! The people (the GLOBALIST) behind wars, starvation and even poisoned vaccines worldwide ! Their plans include to “thin” the population down to a sustainable figure before it’s too LATE!
    *I’ve posted elsewhere the math proves that when (if) humankind reaches 8 billion alive, each man, woman and child will still be equal to over 1,000 acres of dry land on earth! Plant a garden and LIVE, friend! Live and LET live!

    @49 Another outstanding post JT^!!!

    I’m I anti-Semitic? I don’t think so. I try to judge individual actions not whole races of people. I definitely enjoy some of the propaganda movies produced. I fortunately am able to look past the propaganda and still gather enough to enjoy the movie in parts! (example “Oh Brother where art thou” and other movies by the “Jewish” brothers are very enjoyable to watch. I enjoy laughing, all of you should TOO! Just like all of you should be able to recognize propaganda throughout the TV, movie and print industry.)

    Are libertarians Anti-Semitic ? Libertarians are more ANTI-Milnes than they are anti-Jew IMO! We are about INDIVIDUALS , not races, creeds, national origins, etc., etc. Be decent to your neighbor (do unto others…, live and let…,) and mine your OWN business!

    If this is true about the water supply tactics I must side with the victims as everyone should!

    Anti-War Outtakes: http://www.youtube.com/user/clearsky24#p/u/9/wIfq-UoJaikhttp://www.youtube.com/user/clearsky24#p/u/9/wIfq-UoJaik

    Any comments on this practice on the West Bank from anyone ?!?

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