List of Candidate Websites for the 2012 Libertarian Presidential Nomination

Informational Article: List of Websites of active candidates for the 2012 Libertarian Presidential Nomination:

James Libertarian Burns

Jim Duensing

Michael Jingozian

Roger V. Gary

R. J. Harris

Wayne Allyn Root

Lee Wrights

Submit updates via the comments and they will be added.

2012 websites that haven’t been updated in years:

Joy Waymire

144 thoughts on “List of Candidate Websites for the 2012 Libertarian Presidential Nomination

  1. Shii

    Interesting, Wikipedia is not listing these candidates yet.

    Also, LOL @ mister “Libertarian is my middle name”.

  2. Jake Porter

    Chuck,

    While I believe Roger is the only one who has filed with the FEC. Lee has announced, Jim Burns has announced, RJ Harris plans to announce, and I believe Jim Duensing has announced.

    As far as I know Michael Jingozian, John Jay Myers, and Wayne Root have not announced.

  3. MarcMontoni Post author

    Chuck Moulton said:

    Are all of these declared?

    I’ve listed anyone with a P 2012 website.

    Shii said:

    Also, LOL @ mister “Libertarian is my middle name”.

    You know, there’s actually a somewhat interesting story behind that. As I recall, when he ran for office in the 1980’s (??), his state’s ballot access laws prevented any identification other than R, D, or independent (Unaffiliated? No party?). After years of frustration on the part of his state’s Libertarians, trying to convince the duopoly robber baron hacks to amend the law by legislation or court case, Jim just had his middle name changed to ‘Libertarian’ to poke his finger in their eye.

    It is unfortunate that these crooks have to play that sort of game with political minorities; but that’s the way it is.

  4. jjm?

    Rather sure Myers is not a candidate , I think Harris thought better of it, and Jingozian has not been heard of in some time. You missed Joy Waymire.

  5. Robert Milnes

    I’d like to try to clarify something. Here & now would be nice. I have declared my candidacy. I have a website although 2012 is not in the url. I realized that mistake after I purchased the domain. I have declared Independent although I am open to LP, GP and/or BTP nominations. I have been listed on politics1 as a Libertarian candidate not Independent.
    Does this qualify me for your list?

  6. ipr party over, turn out the lites

    “The B Team? Any serious candidates?”

    No. Nor will there be any. Ever.

    ipr is over
    lp is over
    paulie is over
    war is over

    …turn out the lites

  7. MarcMontoni Post author

    Since I can’t remember where I saw JJM’s pres campaign mentioned, I’ve deleted his website. Pity, too — it was one of the nicest of the bunch.

    Jingozian and Harris — their sites are still up; so if they’re officially “not” running, some direct confirmation from each would be appreciated.

    Listed Joy separately because her page is very old.

  8. MarcMontoni Post author

    The “serious” candidates for the other parties have brought us perpetual war, perpetual tax slavery, perpetual mob-buying, perpetual red tape, perpetual poverty, perpetual prisons-called-schools, and so on.

    I’d rather support a candidate who actually reflects my views on eliminating all of those things, rather than someone who is “serious” but doesn’t.

    You’re welcome to your ‘serious’ candidates.

    If you can find a ‘serious’ candidate for the LP who doesn’t call for war, sales taxes, carbon taxes, gun control, and other ‘exceptions’, yeah, I’d consider them.

  9. lp party over, turn out the lites

    ‘been listed on politics1 as a Libertarian candidate not Independent.
    Does this qualify me for your list?”

    millions of people are dying to know

    cuz the lp is not a joke….just like millness

  10. Andy

    “Brian // May 19, 2011 at 9:49 pm

    The B Team? Any serious candidates?”

    My sentiments exactly. One or more of these candidates needs to do something drastic to make themselves standout as a viable choice, either that or some new people who are more viable need to get in the race. If neither happens then the LP is likely screwed for 2012.

  11. Andy

    Marc Montoni said: “MarcMontoni // May 19, 2011 at 10:03 pm

    The ‘serious’ candidates for the other parties have brought us perpetual war, perpetual tax slavery, perpetual mob-buying, perpetual red tape, perpetual poverty, perpetual prisons-called-schools, and so on.

    I’d rather support a candidate who actually reflects my views on eliminating all of those things, rather than someone who is “serious” but doesn’t.

    You’re welcome to your ‘serious’ candidates.”

    I understand your point here and I agree with it, however, I would still like to see Libertarian Party candidates for the Presidential nomination who are more viable (even by LP standards).

    Obviously it would be nice to have a candidate that is already well known (like perhaps Andrew Napalatano), but if this is not possible then it would be nice to see candidates who are actually running something resembling a real campaign.

    I joined the LP back in 1996 and in my opinion Harry Browne’s campaigns for President in 1996 and in 2000 (both pre-nomination and post nomination) were the best Presidential campaigns that I’ve seen since I’ve been in the party.

    The Badnarik campaign of 2004 was not as good as the Browne campaigns were, but he put forth a good effort on a smaller budget (both pre-nomination and post nomination).

    The campaigns for the Presidential nomination in 2008 were all pretty pathetic, and the eventual nominee Bob Barr ran a pretty lackluster and disappointing campaign.

    2012 looks like it could be even worse than 2008 unless one or more of these candidates does something to make themselves break out of the pack, or, unless some better candidates emerge.

  12. George Phillies

    Badnarik 2004 had a larger post-nomination budget than Brown, by a modest amount. They also spent it very differently.

    The 2012 race is starting much later than the 2008 race, so it may take a bit to get off the ground.

  13. Robert Capozzi

    15 gp, interesting stat, somewhat surprising. Any theories on why…

  14. First LP Presidential Debate

    @16

    On one hand, there was a bit of inflation. The 2002 stock market drop was in teh past.

    On the other hand, Brown collected and spent on his nominating campaign a very considerable sum of money that Badnarik did not. Some of those Brown donors had given all they chose to, prior to the nomination, and were not available the same year post-nomination. They came back, some of them, in 2004.

    Including the nominating canpaign, Brown raised and spent considerably more than Badnarik. Compared to 2008, Brown and Badnarik gave us campaigns that were models of fiscal efficiency.

  15. First LP Presidential Debate

    I might better have posted this here , but I missed seeing this thread coming up before I posted it elsewhere.

    First Libertarian Presidential Debate
    of the 2012 Election Season

    Manchester, New Hampshire
    June 19, 2011
    The Highlander Inn at Manchester Airport

    R. Lee Wrights vs. Roger V. Gary

    Questions from
    The audience
    The moderator
    The last Republican Presidential debate

    If any of you have questions, please send them on or post them here. With respect to the Republican debate questions, Republicans debates tend to be not very good. Each candidate gets different questions, other than ‘do you believe in evolution?’, and the questions tend to be shaded as “Mr the media likes you, is it true the Lord God Jehovah did your television endorsement yesterday’, and “Mr why are we stuck listening to you, when did you stop beating your under-age mistress, when you know that’s what she wants?’

    However, mixed in with the rose fertilizer are good questions, and by using the good questions and getting libertarian answers — the more people taping, the better — there will be opportunities.

    Rules:
    This will be a real debate. All candidates are allowed to answer all questions.

    Eligibility: To participate, you must:
    1) Have a long-time record (at least a half-decade) of Libertarian Party activism.
    2) Have a campaign team.
    3) Have filed with the FEC as a Presidential candidate.

    Format:
    Opening: 3 minutes each. Candidate A, then candidate B.
    Closing: Candidate B, then candidate A

    Questions: 2 minutes each, alternating on who goes first.
    After A and B have both answered, the candidate who went first is asked if he wants another minute for both candidates.

    Admission:
    Half-day (2:00-5:00, dinner, Presidential debate) $50.
    Other half day (9:30-11:30, lunch, Judge John Buttrick, Panel) $50.
    Full Day includes all panels, lunch, and dinner $100

    Register at http://www.lpmass.org/Conference
    or at https://secure.donortownsquare.com/SSL/donate.aspx?sgst=0&amt=100&ai=631&qs=87NWV

  16. First LP Presidential Debate

    @13 The serious candidates at this point are Gary and Wrights. Of the other people on the list or not on the list, Keaton or Root would be serious candidates if they declared fairly soon, filed with the FEC and started raising money, and organized a campaign team.

    I am reasonably sure that Jingozian is not running, though he would be serious if he ran.

    Harris ran as a Republican in 2010, and is not a legitimate candidate.

  17. AroundtheblockAFT

    #14 AND #15 make good observations. The fact remains that because the LP is not strong on local levels it is rather hard for the eventual nominee to make a good campaign when he or she is not “official” until well into the presidential year. If the LP were strongly organized, a late convention would be acceptable. As it is, we are too thin on the ground for a dozen candidates to even assemble enough supporters to run a good nominating race.

  18. J. W. Evans

    @19
    I’m not Harris, nor can I speak regarding his campaign, but I did find this comment from him on facebook, discussing with the Florida LP his eligibility,

    “Yes I am a member of the LP and have been active helping support and build the OK LP. I ran for Congress as GOP in 2010 but only because the OK LP did not have ballot access at the time. The campaign did very well against an entrenched establishment Republican neo-con and we won ALL of the Libertarian support there was to be had in the GOP primary with 23% of the vote. This campaign helped me see that if our good candidates could break out of the GOP primaries and into the field of voters who have grown completely fed up with the ruling political classes and professional politicians that we COULD finally upset the balance of power and win some elections in our own right. This is especially the case in OK where the OK DP did not even attempt to run candidates against the established GOP office holders.”

    and from another with someone from OK,

    “What are we LPs here in OK supposed to do…JUST GIVE UP SINCE OUR BALLOT ACCESS HAS KEPT FOLKS FROM RUNNING AS LP?! The OK GOP is FULL of Libertarians because of this factor alone. But now with the OK DP in complete disarray and holding only ONE prominent office we have to opportunity to leave the OK GOP EN MASS and recruit all the disaffected from the collapsing OK DP and vie for first tier status in our state”

  19. Steve

    What happened to that “mystery candidate” who was supposed to announce at the Connecticut convention?

  20. JT

    I second everything Andy said in post 14.

    A real campaign for the nomination, IMO, includes raising tens of thousands of dollars (at least) before the national convention, having an experienced campaign team in place before the national convention, doing media interviews before the national convention, speaking at non-LP events before the national convention, traveling to many LP state conventions before the national convention, etc.

    Putting up a website and sending out opinion statements (though necessary) are NOT a real campaign for the nomination.

  21. NewFederalist

    Why don’t you just go and see what kind of support you can drum up once you get there?

  22. JT

    Milnes: “I could make the first debate in Manchester on the 19th if I got some support soon.”

    You won’t, and you won’t be able to travel anywhere else either, nevermind do any of the other things I said. You will bitch about it and call Libertarians names, though.

  23. Robert Milnes

    & how about some support for Joy Waymire too?
    Unless you want a do-over of the 2008 debacle.
    Where the “serious” candidates waited until the last moments then swooped in & kicked Gravel -a tremendous opportunity-to the curb & radicals -Ruwart-lost to rightists-Barr/Root.

  24. paulie

    You won’t, and you won’t be able to travel anywhere else either, nevermind do any of the other things I said. You will bitch about it and call Libertarians names, though.

    In other news, from our vantage point on this planet, the sun will continue to appear to rise and set….

  25. Robert Milnes

    NF, that is tempting.
    However I do not fly-travel on airplanes I mean.
    Superhero secret identity notwithstanding.
    That would mean driving there in a rickety old Econoline which is what I did in 2008. To PA/NJ convention about 30 miles away. Recently I decided to not drive 60 miles to NJ Green convention.

  26. paulie

    As far as I’m concerned paulie has been discredited.

    Considering the source, thanks for the compliment!

  27. NewFederalist

    “That would mean driving there in a rickety old Econoline which is what I did in 2008.”

    It’s really not that far. You’ll probably make it. Have a little confidence in Ford! They didn’t go bankrupt. Go for it… what do you have to lose?

  28. NewFederalist

    BTW, Bob. I refuse to fly anymore as well. They don’t let the girls grope the guys and I have already had ten lifetimes worth of radiation.

  29. Robert Milnes

    paulie, why don’t you just admit you are a rightist coddler?
    Just announce that you do not support the Pauls.
    People will understand.

  30. paulie

    paulie, why don’t you just admit you are a rightist coddler?

    Right after I admit Dondero’s equally accurate contention that I am a communist.

  31. Robert Milnes

    NF @34, again I ask you, who’s side are you on, anyway?
    I could lose my life, miserable as it is, for one thing. Brakes getting old & soft, power steering going south, charging system doesn’t work well, etc.

  32. NewFederalist

    “NF @34, again I ask you, who’s side are you on, anyway?”

    I just think you should have a little faith and go to the debate. Don’t look for reasons you can’t do it just expect a good outcome and do it. If it doesn’t work out you will at least have proven to lots of people here that you gave it your best shot and for that you might get some support. Think it over.

  33. George Phillies

    @40

    There are eligibility requirements for participating in the debate. You do not appear to have filed with the FEC. You do not appear to have a significant campaign team. It does not appear likely you will be admitted to this debate.

    There is no reason for you to risk your life on a pointless trip.

  34. Robert Milnes

    George, that is what I meant by some support soon. Some campaign team volunteers-to start. Some contributions, maybe make some team positions salaried. File with FEC.
    This could be done in time for June 19 debate.

  35. Robert Milnes

    Unfortunately I am not able to divert tens of thousands of $ to my campaign like you did in 2008.
    Everybody, remember 2008? There was a lot of candidates. Very little campaign support. Especially at the beginning. Even the great Steve K. had campaign financial shortages. All this going on while Ron Paul, counterrevolutionary, is raking in the dough. Dammit. & now we have him back already getting @$1 million.
    You want a candidate to AT LEAST shake up the system? Right here.

  36. JT

    I’d actually like for you to get into the debate, Milnes, as long as it would be put on YouTube afterward. Not enough to pay for your trip, but it would be entertaining.

  37. Thane Eichenauer

    @37
    Robert Milnes,
    You really need to choose between being an media critic or a political candidate. I’m plenty critical of any given media source but if all you do it gripe and make cracks about the rightist-ness of any given person at IPR then you may as well toss any hopes of being a political candidate. Look at Wayne Allyn Root – he appears on any TV network that will have him and I don’t hear him complaining about the lefty-ness of ABC/CBS/NBC. He shows up and gains the coverage worthy of someone who is willing to put in the effort.

    I have never seen any Green or Socialist or other candidate complain about the coverage or staff at IPR. As far as I have observed all candidates worthy of coverage get IPR coverage.

    As for serious candidates, the serious candidates do what it takes to appear at forums, they don’t complain about how far away it is – they show up.

  38. Robert Milnes

    Thane, cmon.
    @37 you see a comment with years of history between paulie & me.
    The only debate I managed to attend in 2008 was 30 m. away in eastern PA. Root, from NV, was there, Kubby, from CA, not. Root rightist jet setter. Kubby radical, acknowledged contribution shortage. I sense a pattern. Don’t you?

  39. Thomas L. Knapp

    Bob @ 55,

    “I sense a pattern. Don’t you?”

    Yes, I do. Here’s the pattern:

    1) You claim to be a candidate.

    2) You ask for “support,” i.e. a woman VP candidate and money.

    3) You categorize everyone who declines to jump on your bandwagon as either a “rightist” or a “loser,” even though your platform contains significant rightist elements itself and even though you’ve never won an election yourself.

    4) You refuse to do anything beyond claiming to be a candidate, demanding “support,” and calling those who aren’t buying names.

    If you decide to write a book, I suggest that you cross Winning Presidential Campaign Strategies off the list of prospective titles.

  40. George Phillies

    For those of you who missed it earlier, the Connecticut resident who was going to announce his Presidential candidacy at their convention claimed he had changed his mind and was now not going to run.

  41. Steven Wilson

    After what took place in Nevada, I have no faith in the process of nomination this next election cycle. Our nominee should be none of the above.

    I received an email from one of our executive members, Mike Bozarth, and he reminded me that in Missouri, we are a bottom up format, and must adhere to the rules of Missouri. He told me what happened in Nevada couldn’t happen in Missouri.

    The convention is going to be a joke. The person has already given himself a great work environment. The national has been compromised.

    It is now time for all state chairs to form a senate of the LP and decentralize the entire operation as to make it ground worthy now.

  42. LibertarianGirl

    @#2 , Jim Burns is definitely his own man , lots of people don’t like him , I myself have had issues with him but ill tell you what , when it was impossible to get the Libertarian Party on the ballot , so while running for office he changed his middle name to Libertarian , so that they were forced to to put the word Libertarian on the ballot is , IMO , a wonderful and clever sacrifice made on hid behalf , FOR US , and it shouldn’t be ridiculed. Plus its a helluva cool story

  43. Robert Milnes

    @59, lg, agreed. Burns was at the only debate I made it to in 2008. He seemed ok to me.
    @56, 4), not accurate. In addition to attending the state convention/debate, I did 4 websites mostly myself. Also several interviews. & other things. About as much as I could under the circumstances.

  44. Robert Milnes

    @56, 3), Tom, you are holding me to an outrageous standard. How many LP, GP, BTP, Independent candidates run & do NOT win?
    Ummmm, maybe just about…ALL!
    So when you say I haven’t won, in the world of third party/independents, that’s NORMAL!
    Yes, use the words normal & Milnes in the same sentence.

  45. Robert Milnes

    @56, 1), go to politics1 & look at the people who claim to be candidates.
    Dems & reps,
    Third party
    Independent.
    To me, the most electable under the present circumstances i.e. dems & reps, are the worst candidates.
    & I don’t think the owner/operator of politics1 would be agreeable to messing around with its listing system.

  46. Robert Milnes

    @56, 2) Give me Ron Paul’s 35 million, Nader’s ballot access & a radical libertarian woman vp, & I’ll win the election.
    Don’t give me these things & I probably will not win.
    I’m only one person. These things have got to be given to me. I don’t have them myself.

  47. Thomas L. Knapp

    Steven @ 58,

    You write:

    “I received an email from one of our executive members, Mike Bozarth, and he reminded me that in Missouri, we are a bottom up format, and must adhere to the rules of Missouri. He told me what happened in Nevada couldn’t happen in Missouri.”

    Mike’s memory must be going. Last year, the Missouri LP’s executive defied Missouri election law, the LPMO’s own bylaws, and the explicit instructions of the state committee for the purpose of centralizing control of who got to run for office as a Libertarian in Missouri.

    Frankly, it was even worse than what Nevada did. Nevada’s executive committee at least had a bylaws fig leaf for what it did. Missouri’s executive committee just said “fuck the rules, we’ll do whatever we feel like doing.”

  48. Thomas L. Knapp

    Bob @61,

    You write:

    “Tom, you are holding me to an outrageous standard. How many LP, GP, BTP, Independent candidates run & do NOT win?”

    Most of them run and do not win.

    My standard is not that you should win, but that if you want to be treated as a candidate, you actually run instead of just calling everyone else a loser and complaining because people don’t treat you like you’re running when all you do is perpetually talk about running.

  49. Steven Wilson

    I had been told that the rules were due to the type of candidate that had filed. I never had confirmation, but I had been told that someone tried to run under the libertarian party name and either suggested violence or overtly stated using violence.

    I believe greg tlapek refused his filing fee. I heard all of this through another person, so I can’t say exactly what happened, but the person who informed me has never appeared to be a liar or proven to be a liar.

    I wasn’t that interested in investigating anything that deeply, I just sent a question out to the members to find out how they felt. Mike wasn’t immediately aware of what had happened in Nevada.

    I don’t consider a filter at the ballot anything close to centralized planning. Rules are rules are rules.

    But if you call yourself a libertarian, the idea of your state taking over for reason X, is proof that you do not believe in individualism.

    Non-violence is a libertarian variable, but non-individualism is socialist.

    To be fair, I have no recent contact with the executive members. The last time I talked to anyone was in Columbia, at the NORML convention. I talked to Cisse and Glenn. I met Mike at the convention in Jefferson city.

    I proposed the question to get a response to see if they would publish anything about how the convention in 2012 might play out.

    I mentioned to Mike, that Nevada convention might be a waste of time.

  50. Robert Milnes

    @67, DWP, thank you for the heads up.
    I was aware of the thread.
    Just curious to see if I needed to nominate myself again.
    So far for p., yes. For vp, no.

  51. wolfefan

    Not sure if anyone mentioned it above, but Joy Waymire’s site has been updated recently enough to list her as a candidate for 2012. It doesn’t seem quite fair to list it separately…

  52. Thomas L. Knapp

    Steven,

    You write:

    “I had been told that the rules were due to the type of candidate that had filed.”

    The action was due to the type of candidate who had filed. The rules were completely ignored.

    There is no provision in Missouri election law allowing a party committee to bar candidates from the primary by “refusing” their filing fee. The law simply says that the candidate must PAY the fee, not that the committee must ACCEPT it, for ballot access.

    Furthermore, the state committee had taken up the matter of that particular candidate the year before and had SPECIFICALLY REJECTED a motion allowing the executive committee to impede his candidacy.

    ” I never had confirmation, but I had been told that someone tried to run under the libertarian party name and either suggested violence or overtly stated using violence.”

    The candidate in question would — or at least could — have been removed from the ballot because he had a (drug-related) felony conviction on his record, a disqualification for the office he was running for (governor).

    The LPMO executive committee not only did not need to take any action to make that happen, but was not empowered to take any action by Missouri election law, and was specifically prohibited from taking the action it took by a vote of its superior committee.

    “I believe greg tlapek refused his filing fee.”

    Greg refused his filing fee in his role as the party’s executive director, because he was instructed to do so by the executive committee. My recollection, which could be incorrect, is that he was the only executive committee member to vote against the measure

    I abstained, as the motion was inherently out of order and constituted open revolt by the executive committee against the party itself. I don’t know if the LPMO has ever regained control of its executive committee or not — I left the committee once it declared its rebellion, and the party not long after.

  53. Robert Milnes

    Why thank you, Darryl.
    “…I want to see what you’ll do.”
    Just out of curiousity, what does this refer to?
    Will I second my nomination?
    Will I get accepted?
    How many votes will I get?
    All of the above?
    NOTA?

  54. Darryl W. Perry

    Will I second my nomination?
    Will you?

    How many votes will I get?
    Yes

    All of the above?
    Some of the above

    Will you begin to campaign & solicit donations?
    How will you use those donations?
    Will you participate in debates?
    Will get any media exposure?
    Or will you continue to claim that people are holding you back?

  55. Robert Milnes

    Darryl, well I guess I’ll second my nomination if I have to. Will wait further to see.
    Will you begin to campaign & solicit donations? etc…
    There is a quantum change from campaigning for the party nomination & getting it. I assume multiple options and capabilities would kick in. So yes, all of the above. Except the last.
    This is in contrast to an already adequately funded & staffed campaign.
    e.g. had Kubby, underfunded & understaffed got the LP nomination instead of Barr, whose campaign was well funded & staffed.

  56. paulie

    @37 you see a comment with years of history between paulie & me.

    Honestly, I wish you would stop referring to me at all.

    Root, from NV, was there, Kubby, from CA, not. Root rightist jet setter. Kubby radical, acknowledged contribution shortage. I sense a pattern. Don’t you?

    I wouldn’t compare you to Kubby. Even with the lack of campaign contributions, he made it to several states as well as the national convention. Myself and Tom made it to some others. We had him participate by phone and video at a few. He made some short videos (some not so good, but he tried). He put out a bunch of campaign updates, which I posted a bunch of places. We did raise several thousand dollars, which while that sucked, may as well have been millions or billions to you.

    Early on in the campaign he spoke at an event with thousands of people.

    At the end, he came very close to getting the VP nomination.

    Ruwart, also “leftist” by your standard, had no money problems and came very close to getting the presidential nomination.

    Mike Gravel was certainly a leftist (a real one) and likewise was not hampered in his ability to travel.

    You always find something and/or someone to blame for all your problems besides yourself. If you ever stop doing that, you’ll take the first and hardest step towards solving them.

    I’m not holding my breath, though.

  57. Robert Milnes

    paulie, LOL.
    To me, that has become your name.
    Too bad all the times you stuck me I remember & squeal here.
    I didn’t compare myself to Kubby. His campaign seemed a good example of what I’m trying to explain to be the case.
    Generally, rightists have the advantage in almost every area.
    Did you see a leftist outbid Vigeurie for TPW?
    Have you EVER seen a radical libertarian on FOX?
    & you narrating the 2008 Debacle in Denver in the first person is great! Do take a lot of the blame for it.
    Again, Ruwart should have accepted the vp position with impure Barr-if only to keep it from Root.
    Notice how Root mentions the fact of his LP vp 2008 at every opportunity? Clubbing the radicals on the head every time!
    Along with his fool book.
    Gravel is a longtime professional politician. Like Ron Paul. Jet setting becomes second nature. Whereas, I do not fly. Never have, actually. Do not intend to either. Although I could be talked into trying out a VTOL hydrogen powered personal vehicle.

  58. Robert Milnes

    Why don’t we all agree to give my candidacy a fair try?
    Join me in denouncing Ron Paul, GOP counterrevolutionary. et tu, Sipos.
    Instead of feeding into the fool Paul campaign, contribute to mine. The 2008 campaign contributions to Paul & Obama were mostly anti-war. $35 million to Paul. How much of Obama’s contributions which are predicted to be approaching 1 billion, can we divert to us instead?
    I can give that a priority. So can Ruwart or KK.
    I’d much rather see Tom as involved in such a campaign than sitting this election cycle out on the sidelines.
    ETC.

  59. Robert Capozzi

    Daniels out. Possible implication: RP and GJ now have slightly stronger case in the L-leaning GOP rank and file.

    Quick take: Good for the cause of liberty, possibly bad for the LP in the short term. Probably slightly bad for the country, since Daniels was in some ways the “best” R who was nominate-able and least unlikely to dethrone BHO.

    Off the top, best for the LP if the GOP nominates a really bad candidate (worse than McCain, if that’s possible) who cannot beat BHO. LP’s case is best if the cost of “wasting” a vote is lowest.

    I’m rooting against Romney and Pawlenty and Huntsman for this reason. Santorum or Palin or Bachmann would be my preference, embarrassments who would polarize and almost certainly cannot win.

    I sometimes wonder if the LP could target L-leaning Rs in states where the R will surely lose…places like NY and NE and probably CA. Targeting involves some infrastructure, but in concept it has some appeal.

  60. Robert Capozzi

    For the old-timers who were at the LP’s 83 convention, does anyone recall James “Piggy” Norwood? He was nominated by a guy who said he didn’t support Piggy, but felt Piggy deserved a shot.

    In Piggy’s speech, he claimed to have the “psychological warfare” to not only win the nomination but the election! His elaborate Misesian theories did not carry the day, sad to say.

    Sound vaguely familiar?

  61. Thomas L. Knapp

    Milnes @ 81,

    “Have you EVER seen a radical libertarian on FOX?”

    Yes.

    @82,

    “Why don’t we all agree to give my candidacy a fair try?”

    Nobody else will until you do — and thus far you refuse to.

    “I’d much rather see Tom as involved in such a campaign than sitting this election cycle out on the sidelines.”

    No you wouldn’t. You had the opportunity to have me involved, and rejected that opportunity in favor of sitting around pissing and moaning some more. So fuck off.

  62. Steven Wilson

    @75

    You know more about it than I do. Thanks for the clarity. I have been interested to see what Cisse would do as state chair. I specifically asked the EC if any member would publish publicly their own opinion about what happened to the counties of Nevada.

    I waited to hear something because as I have become more active again in recent years, I am not interested in serving the national or it’s Root/Starr ideal. I did not want to attend this years convention in St Louis if their was submission by our EC.

    Nobody liked my idea of dismissing the national LP and forming a senate of state chairs. I believe state chairs like Cisse would bring solutions and a sound business sense to those discussions.

    Raising the black flag and having the nomination go to NOTA would indicate a vote of no confidence to the LP in 2012.

    I am growing tired of fighting the big tent libertarians. It reminds me of 2004 all over again.

  63. Robert Milnes

    @85, Tom, interesting, you left out WHO.
    Please name the radical libertarian you have seen on FOX. Or that you know was on FOX.
    The only person I can think of is Ventura. & I’m not sure he could be called a radical libertarian & I’m not sure he was on FOX.

  64. Robert Milnes

    & even if true, my point stands. Radical libertarians are disparately represented on Fox/rightist media/MSM.
    1 radical libertarian?
    How many rightists calling themselves libertarian have been on FOX?
    Have SHOWS on Fox?

  65. Jake Porter

    Robert,

    I would classify John Stossel and Penn Jillete as being radical. I don’t recall how radical he was, but my introduction to the Libertarian Party was seeing Gary Nolan on Fox News.

  66. NewFederalist

    Actually, Judge Napolitano and John Stossel are on the Fox Business Network rather than Fox News Channel but I think the point is still largely valid.

  67. George Phillies

    @91

    You want to make a sacrifice to convince people you are serious? But you don’t have money? Really?

    Assuming that what you seemed to be saying was serious, and perhaps I misunderstood you in which case I apologize in advance, start taking your meds. And stay on them. For at least a decade. While you are holding down a real job. You’ll have to get off the internet to do that.

    Of course, if you were pulling our legs, the “start” step is really easy, because there is nothing to take.

  68. Thomas L. Knapp

    Milnes @ 90,

    “Please name the radical libertarian you have seen on FOX.”

    Charles Jay in 2008.

    Harry Browne (22 times on Fox News national, plus several local Fox affiliate shows) in 2000.

    Oddly enough, I can’t remember whether or not we ever got Badnarik on Fox in 2004.

  69. Jake Porter

    New Federalist, Thanks for the correction.

    Tom, I remember that he was on MSNBC and I believe an afternoon show on Fox News had him on one weekday during the summer or very early fall, but I could be mistaken.

  70. Robert Capozzi

    96 tk, to the extent these qualifiers are helpful in understanding, I wonder how Badnarik is “radical.” I see him as a strict constitutionalist. If that’s a reasonable approximation of his views, how is that any more “radical” than Root, who I’d approximate as a fusionist.

  71. Jake Porter

    While I do not think Badnarik is as radical as say Mary Ruwart I would imagine his views would be closer to a radical libertarian than Root on the Nolan chart.

    I don’t recall Badnarik speaking against the rights of Muslim property owners or changing his position on Iraq during the campaign.

  72. paulie

    Milnes, since you insist on addressing me by name (too bad that you do, and also too bad that almost no one else ever does)…

    I didn’t compare myself to Kubby. His campaign seemed a good example of what I’m trying to explain to be the case.

    Kubby tried his best, and could not overcome a variety of roadblocks. You on the other hand do nothing but endlessly piss and moan about wildly unrealistic fantasies of everyone else doing all the work for you without doing any yourself, in a ridiculously repetitive fashion.

    Some people still read IPR despite this, but many have left as a result.

    All or almost all your comments in all threads all the time fall under the guidelines which IPR writers agreed to as a group should be confined in the PLAS thread, but it seems that none of them are taking the time to enforce that, and I don’t have the time to do it either, as of right now.

    Have you EVER seen a radical libertarian on FOX?

    To take one recent example, Jim Babb of We Won’t Fly.

    That was in a hotel lobby where I did not control the station, as I don’t watch faux news very much.

    narrating the 2008 Debacle in Denver in the first person is great! Do take a lot of the blame for it.

    I don’t take any blame. I actually took the time to be there (unlike you) and tried hard to get the results I wanted. I did not succeed, but unlike you I can at least say I tried.

    Again, Ruwart should have accepted the vp position with impure Barr-if only to keep it from Root.

    It was her decision that she did not want to be associated with the Barr ticket, and a perfectly reasonable one. Kubby would have been a completely legitimate VP candidate choice, and almost was, too.

    None of this is new information.

    This thread was supposed to be about the 2012 candidates, but instead it has turned like so many others into endless repetitive back and forth about your narcissist fantasies of grandeur and persecution.

    Those aren’t a substitute for getting a life, and I have pretty much had it with the way other people at IPR have allowed them to take over so much of the conversation here, just because you have no other job or hobby than posting the same nonsense in the comments here all day every day.

  73. Jake Porter

    Steve Kubby announced his campaign in front of several thousand people at a non-Libertarian Party event, did attend some state party conventions, debated his opponents, had a couple of good staffers (Tom and Paulie), raised a little money, produced some good videos, and made it to the convention and almost became the Vice-Presidential nominee. After the convention I talked to Steve and he didn’t complain one time about the situation. Many candidates could learn from him.

    A Barr/Kubby ticket would have probably better kept the party together and I was happy to support him for the Vice-Presidential nomination.

  74. Steven Wilson

    @75

    You had mentioned drug conviction as the reason. I had heard it was violence. I know that Jon Dine was allowed to run and everyone on the LPMO EC knew he had served time. His conviction was drugs.

    I believe he also served for theft. Greg didn’t keep him from running. He even beat Cisse in the primary.

    I can understand why you left. In the states I have lived, trying to find libertarians with courage and concern for individualism is hard.

    It seems every time someone gets authority, individualism disappears.

    It is sad, but I think back to the 1996 run. I enjoyed it. In the present work environment, I don’t think Browne would get in the room with this LNC.

  75. Darryl W. Perry

    @104 – Dine was running for federal office, there is nothing barring someone with a criminal record from serving in Congress or as President.
    The candidate that was removed was running for a State office, which apparently does have such a prohibition (pardon the pun).

  76. Robert Milnes

    Jake @93, I’ve seen Judge Napolitano on Fox. He is clearly a rightist calling himself, being called, allowing himself to be taken/misconstrued as a libertarian.
    Just like Ron Paul, Barr, Root, Beck et al etc.
    I’m not sure about Stossell or Jillette.
    But I can see you are unreliable in who you say is a radical.

  77. Robert Milnes

    @101, no paulie. Rightist coddler. You are the one who posts & comments far more than me & mostly wrong stuff which coddles rightists.
    If you & Tom had joined MY campaign instead of Kubby’s & hadn’t talked Ruwart into having nothing to do with me, 2008 might have turned out a WHOLE LOT different.

  78. Robert Milnes

    @95, Prof, Phillies, you pompous ass. You have the nerve to try to lecture ME about meds & a job? After what I’ve been through with the so called mental health situation in America & the stacked judicial/criminal justice system? & the FBI surveilling me & screwing with me for DECADES?
    & you can’t even see the math in front of your face that Obama was elected b y duping the progressive vote. Which C OULD be swayed to vote ;libertarian?
    & what about the extremely advanced sophisticated surveillance that I tried to get your assistance in understanding? They can see right through buildings, roofs, walls, deep underground into 18 wheelers etc. They knew EXACTLY that it was Osama in that building.Obama lied when he said there was some doubt it was him or that he would be there. That was meant to perpetuate the myth that surveillance is very slight & unscientific & iffy. The American people would be shocked if they knew the extent & sophistication of surveillance.
    & surveillance & subliminal messages over tv too. Which I have also brought up inIPR to paulie lols or stone silence from you.

  79. Robert Capozzi

    100 jp, your participation here is sporadic, so you may not be familiar with my take on “radicalism.” Radicalism is the propensity to inquire at the most fundamental levels…to check premises.

    My observation is that many “radical” Ls means, in practice, taking fringy positions on political issues. The radicalism I’m talking about epistemological.

  80. NewFederalist

    Wow, Bob! Is it really necessary to alienate everybody? You make it difficult to attract support when you blast folks so vehemently. A a sense of humor goes a long way. Just laugh it off if you disagree.

  81. Jake Porter

    “But I can see you are unreliable in who you say is a radical.”

    Perhaps so. Depending on how you view radical.

    A little advice. When you are running for public office it is generally good political advice to be as positive as possible when communicating disagreement with someone who is going to be a delegate, has experience in managing campaigns and businesses, and not to mention has a good paying job which provides him with money to contribute to candidates such as yourself.

  82. Jake Porter

    @109. After speaking with Michael a few times and reading his book I would view him of being more of a Constitutionalist than anything else.

    On the other hand, I don’t consider myself to be a radical although I frequently support radical candidates. I think the most important thing is for our candidates to talk about issues that matter to Americans and not conspiracy theories and run a campaign with a good organization and a focus on marketing the message. After giving my final delegate vote to Barr in 2008 I was disappointed they never ran TV, radio, or Internet ads to the best of my knowledge and the campaign ended with about the same number of state coordinators the Phillies campaign had at the convention.

  83. paulie

    Milnes,

    You are the one who posts & comments far more than me

    Not anymore. At this point I am only reading comments addressed to me by name, and you are unfortunately just about the only one that does that. Your comments are worse than merely a waste of time, so if no one picks up the slack in enforcing IPR policies regarding your comments, pretty soon I will try to stop reading any comments here at all.

    If you & Tom had joined MY campaign instead of Kubby’s

    If a cow jumped over the moon….you have no campaign to join. What you have is an endless parade of psycho troll-spamming IPR comments with the same dead horse “idea” that was already supposed to be confined in its own thread, except that no one is enforcing IPR policies, and that makes for a polluted comment environment in which many people do not want to participate…to an increasing degree, myself included. I suppose you could call that a campaign – “the campaign to drive everyone else out of IPR comments.” But if you actually succeed, you would gain, what? You can talk to yourself on your own website all day just as easily right now without having to wage any such campaign.

    & hadn’t talked Ruwart into having nothing to do with me,

    I’ve done no such thing.

    In fact I do not recall ever discussing you with Dr. Ruwart in any way.

    She came to that conclusion all on her own.

    Everyone else has come to the exact same conclusion, which is why you have, in your own words, “no significant other, not tech savvy, [..] no campaign contributions, no volunteers or staff, not on any ballots.”

    You love to project blame and claim that this is somehow because of me. It’s not. Not even slightly. Not one bit.

    The reality is that you are, again in your own words, “disabled, unemployed, broke, depressed, mentally ill,” and no one is ever going to support a “candidate” like that, regardless of whether I ever existed or noticed your existence or not.

    Regardless of how many times you repeat the same things over and over, this will continue to be the case, whether I am here or not.

    And regardless of how many times everyone tells you this (not just me), you will continue to ignore it and shift blame and keep on doing the same thing you have been doing for the last X number of years with the exact same result, only more of it.

    So, at this point, there’s nothing else to discuss.

    All:

    Unlike Milnes, I have a certain point at which I no longer want to keep repeating myself.

    I think I am pretty much reaching that point now.

    Humoring Milnes by addressing him as if he was somehow open to rational considerations and logic is not helpful; he isn’t. Ignoring him does not work unless everyone does it (I suppose I should lead by example at least; too bad I have a bad case of responditis). Making fun of Milnes got old a long time ago, at least for me. And I don’t have time to single handedly enforce IPR policies.

    I guess the only other thing left for me to do is to let Milnes test his theory that he would get supporters in my absence. Lots of luck with that.

  84. Thomas L. Knapp

    Milnes @ 107,

    You write:

    “If you & Tom had joined MY campaign instead of Kubby’s”

    You didn’t have a campaign. Then, as now, all you had was an endless stack of complaints that nobody else was willing to miracle up a campaign for you.

    “& hadn’t talked Ruwart into having nothing to do with me”

    Not only did I not “talk Ruwart into having nothing to do with you,” I was the one who forwarded your self-pitying crap to her, giving you the opportunity to make the case for her having anything to do with you.

    While I agree that her decision not to was sound, I don’t recall advising her on that decision in any way, shape, manner or form.

    Between your constant pleas for a female VP and your assumption that Ruwart couldn’t have possibly made any decisions on her own, I’m beginning to think you’re sporting a pretty ugly case of sexism.

  85. George Phillies

    @103

    There appear to be two serious campaigns, Gary and Wrights, two one-man-shows-to-send-a-message, and rumors of campaigns from Waymire and Shinghal-Keaton. Gary and Wrights are in the lead.

  86. Steven Wilson

    @ 103

    My two cents worth,

    I support NOTA. It is time to practice what we preach. If we tell people to vote anything, it should be proven that we ourselves can do it as well.

    If there is no one that appeals to what you believe…NOTA.

    If Wrights can get media attention about the wars and about drugs, then I might change.

    I believe our candidate must tell voters what it would be like if a Minarchist was leading the country.

    Our candidate must promote Individualism without condition.

  87. Robert Capozzi

    117 sw: I support NOTA. It is time to practice what we preach.

    me: Please expand on how this’d work. If the LP doesn’t field a candidate having nominated NOTA, is it your sense that a) this will be widely reported and b) this will be viewed as a demonstration that the general public should vote NOTA in the general elections? (I’d note that large numbers do this already by not voting at all.)

    If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

  88. Robert Milnes

    @115,Well I’m not sexist. Clearly quite the contrary since I insist on 50/50 appointments & a woman on the ticket.
    So nice try to spin me on that.
    So if Ruwart didn’t get negativity about me from you or Paulie, where did it come from? Herself? From reading…IPR?
    She certainly didn’t discuss anything with me.
    KK on the other hand, did correspond with me. We exchanged several polite, cordial & thoughtful emails.
    That seems more fair & reliable to me.
    Not to mention my correspondence with ENM.
    She confided in me about her health situation and when I asked, about paulie.
    So this notion of me as a sexist or stalker, which word paulie mentioned several times but never came up in the entire federal case against me, is nonsense.

  89. Robert Milnes

    So, straighten me out-again, Tom. Root is reluctant to get published in IPR?
    Now Paulie voluntarily withdraws.
    Good riddance.
    All I asked was for him to stop coddling rightists & slamming me. I tried as best I could with paulie. I’m sick & tired of it.
    I still have some suspicions about his motives in doing that all this time.
    Now if we can get some momentum against Ron Paul, GREAT!
    Progress!

  90. Steven Wilson

    @118

    The point of a game with vote of no confidence is to indicate that all possible outcomes would take place without any direct or indirect impact from the agent.

    Americans complain about corruption, incompetence, and K street connections. All kinds of reasons why they believe the system does not work.

    My idea for NOTA is based on having no one to vote for, due to my set criteria for a candidate in the LP.

    I mentioned Wrights and what he needs to do so I can support the LP. I have not done great amounts of research on all of the candidates, but he seems the most likely to match what I believe in.

    Voting here is a consent mechanism. Therefore, I consent to allow Wrights to speak on my behalf if he makes the proper moves as a candidate. If his platform matches my belief structure.

    If you cannot find an agent to alter outcomes, then the sequence will exist and function as is. Therefore, there is no reason to place consent on an agent of no effect.

    Every tree that falls makes a sound. You don’t say goodbye everytime something ends. It is protocol, not function.

  91. Alejandro

    The Milnes back and forth is BEYOND ENTERTAINING. I hope he gets in the debates. Please, just let him in! How much is bus fare?

  92. Thomas L. Knapp

    Milnes @119,

    “Well I’m not sexist. Clearly quite the contrary since I insist on 50/50 appointments & a woman on the ticket.”

    I’m not sure why you think the one follows from the other.

    “So if Ruwart didn’t get negativity about me from you or Paulie, where did it come from? Herself? From reading…IPR?”

    Watch the movie “The Red Dragon” some time. There’s a sequence where Hannibal Lecter and the detective, Will something-or-other, are discussing who’s smarter.

    Lecter says “you must think you’re smarter than me. After all you caught me.”

    Will replies “I don’t think I’m smarter than you. It’s just that you had certain … disadvantages.”

    “Really? What disadvantages.”

    “Well, you’re insane.”

    You were capable of turning off Ruwart all by yourself. You didn’t need any help. No libertarian could possibly look at your platform without blanching, nor could anyone who can do math look at your argument for “plausible victory” and see anything but crazy.

  93. Catholic Trotskyist

    I, the chairman of the Catholic Trotskyist Party, am considering enlisting a Catholic Trotskyist to run for the Libertarian Party presidential nomination. I am aware that we don’t abide by the party platform, but who reads those anyway?

    I support the idea of Robert Milnes’s campaign and the PLAS strategy, though the CTP does have significant policy differences with him.

  94. Area 51 Hi-Tech for Milnes

    @ 122: I hope [Milnes] gets in the debates…. How much is bus fare?

    But Milnes doesn’t want a bus.

    Milnes says @ 81: I do not fly…. Do not intend to either. Although I could be talked into trying out a VTOL hydrogen powered personal vehicle.

  95. Robert Capozzi

    123 sw: Every tree that falls makes a sound.

    me: How do you know that? 😉

    A tree falling probably does generate sound waves. Sound, however, requires a receiver of the sound wave to label it “sound.”

    The LP fielding NOTA is a sound wave that seems unlikely to me to ever be heard as “sound.”

  96. 22 hours 22 min ago...

    Robert Milnes was nominated for the BTP nomination, which he claims he wishes to seek… he has yet to second this nomination… how serious can he be?

  97. Steven Wilson

    @127

    and because you don’t understand the sound of NOTA, you will hear the sound of dysfunction when the LP nominates someone who does not promote individualism.

    Even if Barr had turned the corner onto Liberty drive, do you think it would’ve served the LP just a little if the candidate had some form of crediability?

    In 2008, if not Kubby, then NOTA. Why?

    Because that is how you feel. Telling the media and the american voter that Barr and Root are now the face/voice of individualism made everyone here look foolish.

    You only care about window dressing. I care about substance.

  98. Thomas L. Knapp

    Bob @ 127,

    You write:

    ‘The LP fielding NOTA is a sound wave that seems unlikely to me to ever be heard as ‘sound.'”

    Maybe not. But that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

    As Abraham Lincoln put it, “better to say nothing and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.”

    The LP seriously dinged its own credibility in 2008 –arguably with Barr, and certainly with Root. It might have been better off not nominating at all than to have nominated the ticket it did.

    If it comes down to Root v. NOTA next year and the LP is too stupid to choose NOTA, it should simultaneously pass a bylaws amendment renaming the party “Insane Clown Posse.”

  99. Robert Milnes

    @123, thank you for the link, Jake. It is now on my website.
    There is some problem with it on NJLP website. So I was hoping that would get corrected or another link would show up somewhere.
    I’d like to say something about that blue jeans guy. When I was first arrested by the FBI & brought into court-in the suit I went to the tv station in-I had never been in a federal court before, let alone as a defendant. I didn’t know the rules, what was expected etc. Of course I had been in a few lower courts before and had some civics education, but I was somewhat intimidated.
    But now that I’ve been in federal court several times, know the rules & what’s expected, seen what goes on including attorney games & judicial mistakes, etc, never again will I be intimidated as before.
    That debate/state conference was my first debate & first time meeting a number of libertarians. I had been to some leftist meetings but the word libertarian was not even mentioned that I recall.
    But now that I’ve been interacting with libertarians for years and have been to that debate & several interviews etc., never again will I be intimidated by public speaking etc. Plus I’ve had time to solidify my ideas and positions etc. I’m pretty good a prompt replies. etc. i.e. I’m looking forward to the 2012 campaign & will try to make as many debates as I can. The big prize of course would be to get high enough polling to get into the MSM debates.
    If I get enough support, that is very possible.

  100. Robert Milnes

    @124, welcome to The Crazy Losers Club.
    From the perspective of the dem/rep reactionary winners, radical libertarians, Tom, are crazy. & losers.
    Do you think Billary, or Obama or McCain gave much any thought about Ruwart, or Gravel or Barr etc? I doubt it. Just those crazy libertarians who are going to lose & don’t matter much.
    I’ve come to terms with my craziness, Tom. So you calling me crazy is water off a duck’s back.
    Have you come to terms with your craziness?

  101. Michael H. Wilson

    Wait a minute Tom. As I recall and it may have been do to bad beer, but there was a clown party in the sixties. So ya think it will be fair for the LP to use the name clown?

  102. Andy

    “‘The LP fielding NOTA is a sound wave that seems unlikely to me to ever be heard as ‘sound.’”

    I would most definitely advocate that the Libertarian Party not run a candidate for President if Ron Paul were to pull off a miracle and actually win the Republican primary. I’d probably endorse the same thing if Gary Johnson were able to pull off such a miracle.

    Since I doubt that either Paul or Johnson will make it through the Republican primary, the LP should plan to have a Presidential ticket. I just hope that it doesn’t end up being another disaster like Barr.

  103. Robert Capozzi

    129 sw: Telling the media and the american voter that Barr and Root are now the face/voice of individualism made everyone here look foolish. You only care about window dressing. I care about substance.

    Me: Beg your pardon. First, you have a premise that the LP is about “individualism.” That’s an amorphous concept, but if I get the general idea, political liberty is not necessarily about individualism. One could be a voluntary collectivist and support political liberty. Second, Barr and Root didn’t sign up for being the face/voice of “individualism.” They were candidates for the LP. In your mind, perhaps you felt foolish with them at the top of the ticket, but that’s on you. I think they did a pretty good job, and I didn’t feel foolish with them on the ticket. They did sometimes disappoint me. But then I can’t say that I can think of anything on earth that doesn’t disappoint now or then. Finally, it seems awfully presumptuous of you to suggest that I only “care about window dressing,” but YOU “care about substance.” That’s easily dismissed as false, since only I know what I care about, unless you are a mind reader. I do happen to think that style matters, especially in politics and other forms of theater.

    130 tk: As Abraham Lincoln put it, “better to say nothing and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.”

    Me: Are you purposely provoking the Rothbardians and revisionists among us? The name “Abraham Lincoln” has been known to induce tirades from them. But, I agree with Lincoln on this. Note that it’s a lean, not an absolute statement. Prudence is a wise stance. OTOH, we all get to play the fool now and then, yes?

    Tk: The LP seriously dinged its own credibility in 2008 –arguably with Barr, and certainly with Root.

    Me: Did you mean to say “BY MY ESTIMATION AND ACCORDING TO MY VALUES, The LP seriously dinged its own credibility in 2008 –arguably with Barr, and certainly with Root.”? As I see it, Barr enhanced the LP’s credibility, certainly with me and likely with most not associated with the LP.

  104. Andy

    Robert Cappozi said: “The LP seriously dinged its own credibility in 2008 –arguably with Barr, and certainly with Root.”? As I see it, Barr enhanced the LP’s credibility, certainly with me and likely with most not associated with the LP.”

    I’ve got to disagree with you here. I think that Bob Barr did quite a bit of damage to the credibility of the Libertarian Party in 2008. I’ve spoken to numerous people around the country who told me that they did not support the Libertarian Party in 2008 because of Bob Barr. These are people who I’d describe as small “l” libertarians and were a part of the Ron Paul r3VOLution. A lot of them were hardcore activist types – exactly the kind of people that the Libertarian Party needs.

    I’ve gathered petition signatures to put a lot of Libertarian Party candidates on the ballot in a lot of states. Bob Barr was the first time that I actually got a lot of negative responses from people about the candidate. I peititoned to put Bob Barr on the ballot in Alabama, and in Alabama it said the name of the candidates on the petitions. Not everyone knew who Bob Barr was. In fact, most of the people did not know who he was, but out of the people who did know who he was, most of them responded negatively. I’ve never had this happen with a Libertarian Party candidate before for any office. I’ve gotten negative responses towards the Libertarian Party in general, but never such hostility directed at one candidate. The ironic thing was, most of the hostility that I encountered over Bob Barr was due to his anti-liberty record! I also petitioned to put Harry Browne on the ballot in 2000 and Michael Badnarik on the ballot in 2004, and I did not get one negative response about either of them from the people who knew who they were, even from the people who knew who they were who said that they were not libertarians.

    Yes, the Barr campaign did damage the Libertarian Party and the party still has not recovered from that damage.

    2008 had the potential to be the biggest year ever for the Libertarian Party and the Barr campaign (as well as some bungling from LP National) ruined it. Let’s not make those same mistakes in 2012.

  105. Robert Capozzi

    137 Andy, think of it this way: Say the LP nominates candidate X in one cycle and candidate Y in another.

    Bill Basement, Candidate X, lives in his parents home in the basement. He doesn’t have a job and has no experience. He runs a campaign that is a wordpress website. Very few hear his message. Such a low-risk candidate doesn’t hurt credibility per se because so few hear his message.

    Cal Congressman, Candidate Y, is high profile. He’s a known quantity. He has a track record in politics. He’s controversial. Millions hear his message. Some love him, some largely agree with the thrust of his message, some despise him because he violates 3 plumb line positions and there’s an event during his campaign that’s inartfully handled.

    Which one hurts credibility more?

    Putting oneself out there involves taking risks. Barr took the risk. Some people didn’t like what he said and did on some occasions, including me. A higher profile candidate is by definition going to ruffle some feathers.

    Bill Basement’s campaign might involve webcams of his reading passages from A NEW LIBERTY. Perhaps he’ll get himself arrested for toting a machine gun on a subway as a campaign event, to, I guess, make a point. Few will be aware of these events, since no way Bill is ready for prime-time TV.

    Credibility is a netting out business. Like everything, I suggest we learn to take the bad with the good.

  106. NewFederalist

    If the choice was only between Bill Basement and Cal Congressman you might well have a valid point. But it is not often that the choice is really that simple. There are many worthwhile possibilities in between those two extremes. How about Arthur Author the financial best seller? Or Paul Professor who brings excellent academic credentials? Theo Thespian who already has a large following but is a committed libertarian?

  107. Robert Capozzi

    139 nf, great point. We’ll see who throws his/her hat in the ring, weigh the strengths and weaknesses, and make a selection.

    140 tk, glad we agree that credibility is subjective.

  108. Heather Reynolds

    Too bad Jingozian isn’t running. He is the most legitimate candidate on the list.

  109. Kleptocracy and You

    Heather Reynolds I’m glad you stopped by, hope you will return as NEW ideas are WELCOME and most definitely needed here !

    With that said, each time I heard Jingo speak I kept waiting for him to say something. (Anyone here remember Mondale to Gary Hart in the ’84 debate, a takeoff of the humorous hamburger commercial of the time -WHERE’S the BEEF?! ) Mr. Jingo ,who seemed to be a very NICE guy, just had NO beef ! I guess some were glad to have another millionaire in the LP race. Sadly a Kubby, Burns or Ruwart weren’t the millionaires in the running…

    I was away from the site when this thread was active so I missed it. I have actually read the entire thing on my lunch break. Too much to comment on of course.

    However, I will continue my “Party Line” and hope to convince some to agree. There is quite a bit of room in the Libertarian quad of the Nolan Chart. Very seldom if ever will you find two Ls who agree 100% on all political matters. The more LP candidates we have out there promoting the LP platform and libertarianism, the BETTER. Naturally the more articulate and “famous” they are the better also, but if they are over 75-80 % solid Ls great ! Let them spread the message to the masses by all means available to them. The LP working to expand at the local level because of the new recruits reached by these candidates. Some may balk at my 75-80% figure, I smile when I remember David Nolan appearing on a Blogtalk radio show a few years back. (It’s still on the web somewhere) It may have been Kubby’s show. The term “plumb-line” Libertarian was used and Nolan didn’t hesitate to say “I’m the plumb-line” and then he gave a faint snicker ! (We are all the plumb-line in our own minds) The 20 to 25 % (or lower) we disagree on can be discussed among friends in private as we HAMMER the Ds & Rs on the 75 to 80% (or HIGHER) we can agree on, all the while building the Party locally ! Support all our candidates on the issues we can agree upon. Disagree when appropriate, but let’s be positive and build the LP locally with the candidates we now have and will continue to get !!!

    It’s not an easy task running for high office as a Libertarian. Most of my family and friend’s families for generations were Ds, one 2nd cousin even serving in the State House/Senate, and couldn’t seem to understand what I was doing. I OTOH wasn’t a D and realized early I was a L (a curse? NO but a harder political road to take than most pursue). A tough journey at times indeed. So please, PLEASE don’t be down on these candidates. They have put their names and reputations on the line to represent the LP and you who side with the LP. It’s a tough enough road without the Ls being NEGATIVE also (just because they aren’t some kind of STAR now)! Please be POSITIVE when you can and silent when you don’t really need to be negative. If you aren’t a campaign worker then by all means please keep an open mind until convention time. Vent them for sure, but keep an open mind ! THX.

    ~~~

    Friends please go to our LP POTUS Candidate’s Facebook site and “LIKE” their (that’s correct their) campaign. We need to support all our candidates that are spreading the LP message to the masses! Roger Gary For President
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Roger-Gary-For-President/197690810264585?sk=wall, and Lee Wrights for President- http://www.facebook.com/pages/Lee-Wrights-For-President-2012/159450747438442 are the current ones with facebook sites. The more “likes” the better and it will be a moral booster for the staff. Please remember campaigns run on cash. Couples may give up to $5000 and Individuals $2500. Always GIVE until it feels GOOD!!!
    Even $40 in honor of the LP’s 40th year and in memory of LP co-founder David Nolan and John Hospers the first LP POTUS candidate would be a great help to these staffs. Obama plans to raise one billion, don’t you want to HELP the LP with some cash NOW !?! They are working for YOU.

    “If others have Facebook pages, I apologize please “Like” their pages as you discover them. THX”

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