CA LNC Alternate Rep Suggests Johnson Campaign Should Sacrifice Ballot Access to Unseat Wagner

An email from Scott Lieberman of CA made its way onto the LNCDiscussPublic list regarding the Johnson campaign for president and the ongoing controversy in the Oregon LP. Dr. Lieberman is an Alternate Regional Representative to the Libertarian National Party from Region 4, which includes Arkansas, California, Nevada, New Mexico and New York. Wes Wagner is the leader of a group of officers who currently are recognized by the Oregon Secretary of the State and the Libertarian National Committee as the officers of the Oregon Libertarian Party. They are being challenged in a lawsuit by Tim Reeves and others as the legitimate officers of the Oregon Libertarian Party. The dispute between Wagner and Reeves has been chronicled here on Independent Political Report since March of 2011.

Here is Dr. Lieberman’s letter:

“On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Scott L. wrote:

Help!

Starchild is posting most of our lnc-discuss e-mails on the Internet, so I don’t feel bad about sending this to you.

I think you work for the Johnson campaign. Please make it clear to them that it is in their long-term best interests to sacrifice ballot access in Oregon if that is what it takes to politically neuter Wes Wagner and his group of misfits.

When will a ruling be issued in your lawsuit against Wagner?

Scott Lieberman”

The context of the email can be found here .

 

The vice-chairman of the Libertarian Party, R. Lee Wrights, had this to say:

“I can’t believe any LNC member would give such advice to any person, campaign or affiliate, particularly our Presidential campaign. Clearly, Dr. Lieberman was not thinking of the party’s best interest when he made this statement.

We work too hard for ballot access to toss it away out of spite for one person or a group of individuals. I can only hope the Johnson campaign knows better than to follow such horrible advice.

As for Mr. Burke and Dr. Lieberman, I offer this quote as a friendly piece of advice:

“Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.” – Malachy McCourt

My advise to the rest of this board is that we avoid the war started by those who came before us. Let us have Peace.

Lee Wrights
Vice Chair
Libertarian Party”

 

I wrote to Dr. Lieberman and asked for a statement regarding his email. I received the following response:

“I think you work for the Johnson campaign. Please make it clear to them that it is in their long-term best interests to sacrifice ballot access in Oregon if that is what it takes to politically neuter Wes Wagner and his group of misfits.

Scott Lieberman”

Yes, I did write the above words. However, context is everything…

Have you ever written or said something to a friend that you would never say in public? I bet you have.

Virtually all adults need to “blow off some steam” every so often.

I have been a friend of Richard Burke for over a decade. Sometimes we talk about Libertarian Party stuff. Sometimes I tell him my opinion about certain Libertarians, and occasionally those opinions are rather caustic.

In 2006, Mr. Wagner sued the LP of Oregon. The LP of Oregon officers were all listed by name as defendants. Two of the defendants decided to hire their own lawyer. That lawyer cost them thousands of dollars. All of the lawsuits were eventually dismissed. But the latter two defendants quit the Libertarian Party because they did not have money to keep defending themselves in court.

The following year, allies of Wagner tried to recall the officers of the LP of Oregon. After they failed to do that, they felt they deserved to get compensated for the costs they incurred in trying to recall the officers. So, they brought a lawsuit against the LP of Oregon in Small Claims Court. The judge threw out that lawsuit.

Another ally of Mr. Wagner filed a complaint to the Secy of State’s office that Mr. Burke had forged a signature on a campaign finance document. After investigating, the SoS threw out that complaint.

.

In the current matter, Mr. Wagner is on tape as saying that he knew he could not get his new Bylaws to pass by 2/3 at a regular LP of Oregon Convention. Instead of trying to work with the Reeves group to see if Mr. Wagner could get at least some of his Bylaws passed, Mr. Wagner instead held his own meeting, without giving proper notice to LP of Oregon members, and created totally new Bylaws without getting a 2/3 vote at a Convention.

I am perfectly willing to let Delegates to any Convention get what they want, as long as it is done by the rules. However, Mr. Wagner seems to think that he and his group don’t need to follow the rules.

Robert’s Rules has a primary goal of protecting the rights of the members. When you pass your own set of Bylaws without a 2/3 vote at a properly announced Convention, you are violating the rights of your members.

That is why I wrote those words to Mr. Burke.

Mr. Burke originally replied to the LNC Chair, Mr. Neale, and myself. Then, Mr. Burke realized that he really did not want to send my e-mail to Mr. Neale, so Richard deleted Mr. Neale from the header of the e-mail. Or so he thought. Unfortunately, Mr. Burke accidentally did not really delete Mr. Neale from the header, so the e-mail with my words in it went to me AND Mr. Neale. I can not swear that Mr. Neale posted my words to lnc-discuss the entire world on purpose. However, Mr. Neale is a very astute political operative, and since he and I often disagree on Libertarian Party governance, I can understand why Mr. Neale would not go out of his way to cut me some slack. Ergo – Mr. Neale forwarded Mr. Burke’s e-mail, with my e-mail quoted in it, to the lnc-discuss e-mail list.

If I had written that e-mail and sent it to lnc-discuss myself, I agree that would have been very unacceptable, because LNC members need to be as objective as possible, and as polite as possible, when talking about other members of the Libertarian Party in public.

I am disappointed that Mr. Neale chose to forward my obviously private remarks to the entire world, but so be it.

I am not going to change my opinion of Mr. Wagner’s strategy and tactics just because of Richard Burke’s innocent mistake. I do urge everyone in the LP to talk to all the of the sides in a dispute before forming an opinion. Often these disputes are like icebergs – only 10% is visible above the water line.

Scott Lieberman Region 4 Alternate, Libertarian Party National Committee”

The story will be updated as needed.

174 thoughts on “CA LNC Alternate Rep Suggests Johnson Campaign Should Sacrifice Ballot Access to Unseat Wagner

  1. wes Wagner

    If only Scott listened to his own advice. In the past near decade of his alleging being Mr Burkes friend … I don’t recall him ever reaching out to get our side of the story.

    I guess he has no reason too since there is nothing that will change his one sided opinion by his own statements.

    I believe we found a new photo for the wikipedia page about ‘partisan hacks’

  2. R. Lee Wrights

    Since Dr. Lieberman is so concerned with rules, policies and by-laws here is one he should bear in mind.

    From the LP national By-laws:

    ARTICLE 14: PRESIDENTIAL AND VICE-PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS

    Section 4. The National Committee shall respect the vote of the delegates at Nominating Conventions and provide full support for the Party’s nominee for President and nominee for Vice-President as long as their campaigns are conducted in accordance with the Platform of the Party.

  3. Joe Buchman

    So Lee — I’m not speaking for the campaign, just as a guy who volunteers there as well as for other Liberty causes.

    How do you think the LNC is doing overall at the above?

    What was that it’d be best if Obama is re-elected press release from the national office?

    How many other LNC members and alternates give their preference for POTUS between Obama and Romney without even mentioning Gary Johnson?

    How’s the relationship between the LNC and campaign overall?

    There’s only 119 days left before the election. How about you and I as a start reach out to build a better bridge here?

    Again, just as a guy out there doing my best to maximize the number of LIBERTARIAN votes (not anti-Obama, not anti-Romney — but LIBERTARIAN VOTES) . . . golly. It sure seems we could be doing better.

    Joe

  4. Joe Buchman

    PS — what I’m attempting to point to is that the above is a symptom of the problem and not the core issue that needs healing/fixin/working on here.

  5. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    My husband said something yesterday about what Mr. Johnson must be thinking with all this type of nonsense going on. It does make me wonder if he’ll bail on us as soon as the election is over. I can’t say that I’d blame him, but I certainly hope not. Hopefully he gets enough positive reactions from his public appearances to overlook these petty problems from petty people.

  6. Joe Buchman

    Jill @ 5 — it does seem even more wasteful of both time and resources now than the convention at its most unfocused and dysfunctional.

    119 days — 2,850 or so hours.

    How about we just all focus on maximizing the number of LIBERTARIAN VOTES for POTUS and the 700+ other races, between now and then.

    Is there really something MORE IMPORTANT the LNC needs to focus on?

    (Okay, maybe the convention site for 2016; and the lease/purchase of a new HQ; and the aqueduct. The Romans gave us the aqueduct . . . and sanitation, and roads . . .)

  7. Root's Teeth Are Awesome

    Scott Lieberman: it is in their long-term best interests to sacrifice ballot access in Oregon if that is what it takes to politically neuter Wes Wagner and his group of misfits.

    If the LP tent is big enough for misfits like Root, Starr, and Dr. Lieberman, I don’t see why the tent is not big enough for misfits across the spectrum.

  8. Matt Cholko

    This kind of ridiculous BS (the Oregon LP stuff) makes me second guess whether my LP involvement is worthwhile.

    I can tell you right now, if something like this were taking place here in VA, I would be out the door in a heartbeat.

  9. Dan Reale

    Matt –

    Your state is your state. Oregon makes me second guess nothing. It just makes me sad because the only winners there will be the attorneys regardless of who wins.

  10. paulie

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LNCDiscussPublic/message/1145
    On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 7:49 I wrote:

    Amen Lee! Sacrificing ballot access is not in our interest. I do believe Scott was thinking of what he believes to be the party’s best interest but to me it seems ballot access should not be expendable. Anyone who thinks it is should spend some time petitioning in triple digit temperatures as I was doing today in Maryland, or below zero temperatures as I did at times this past winter in North Dakota.

    paulie 415-690-6352

  11. paulie

    There’s only 119 days left before the election. How about you and I as a start reach out to build a better bridge here?

    Joe, if you have any concerns on behalf of the campaign that you would like posted to the LNC list I can do that now, and would be happy to do so whenever I have time.

  12. Seebeck

    This is yet another reason why Scott Lieberman is and always had been unfit to be anywhere near the LNC or any LP leadership. Openly and blatantly calling to violate the Bylaws AGAIN??? (See also L’Affair de Wrights)

    Sounds like he’s shrieking the last throes before death: “Deny the third person to spite the second so the first person can win! I’m melting! Melting!”!

  13. George Phillies

    @0-15 There is possibly a relation between the above and the following quote from the next Liberty For America magazine, the July 2012 issue. The issue headline, by the way, is

    Lieberman to Johnson Campaign –
    Avoid Oregon Ballot Access!

    and the article quote is:

    In addition, LPUS membership is still falling, and is now under 13,000. At the end of the last eight months, the LNC membership numbers are:
    November 13691
    December 13468
    January 13492
    February 13538
    March 13406
    April 13179
    May 12923
    June12870

  14. Marc Montoni

    Here’s an idea, Dr L: Instead of inserting yourself in matters that don’t concern you, why don’t you pledge 30 in 30 (sign up 30 new or renewal members in 30 days)?

    I’ve done it before. You could too, if you weren’t so wrapped around the axle trying to avoid people seeing what you do and say.

    Come to think of it, I think I’ll go contact a few expiring members, myself.

    What have YOU done to *build* the LP today?

  15. libertariangirl

    cut off your nose to spite your face wont accomplish anything……….its embarrassing to think GJ has even been informed of our inhouse pissing matches….clearly Scott L isnt thinking clearly….simmer down now S.L:)

  16. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I wonder how Mr. Neale feels about being sort of blamed for this by Scott. My observation from reading the LNCDiscussPublic list is that Scott has been belligerent to him since the convention. This is only going to made things worse.

  17. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    The most astonishing thing about this is that Scott and Wes apparently have never spoken about this before. Why has Scott held such a grudge, when the situation in Oregon doesn’t concern him? He must hold a whole lot of negativity in him.

  18. Michael H. Wilson

    More than one person from the California crew has stuck their nose in Oregon’s business over the years. They all seem to move in the same circle and support one another.

  19. wes wagner

    Bear in mind the most critical of us see this more of a failure of the Libertarian Party of California than Scott himself.

    You are responsible for the people you select to represent you and their immediate removal when it becomes obvious that they are not moral people.

    If your State chair has not already asked for his resignation, you should consider replacing your state chair as well.

  20. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I found this amusing email from Scott on the LNCPublicDiscuss List this morning:

    >” I agree that Boards should prefer concrete actions that help advance the organization?s Mission Statement as opposed to cynical publicity gestures that are mostly designed to fool the membership into thinking the Board is doing something constructive when it really isn?t.
    >
    > However ? past LNC?s have not been able to get Convention contracts signed 4 years in advance.
    >
    > I see nothing wrong in showing our members that THIS LNC really is professionalizing the Libertarian Party.
    >
    > Scott Lieberman”

    The comment that this LNC is professionalizing the Libertarian Party is hilarious. He knew about his leaked email at the time he wrote this. Instead of trying to do some kind of damage control, he chose to continue arguing with Mr. Neale, since the whole comment thread was that Scott thought that signing a contract for the 2016 convention is somehow an urgent matter.

    We REALLY need to get this guy of the LNC.

  21. Ad Hoc

    I think making sure we have a good keynote speaker for 2024 should be a top priority right now.

  22. Scott Lieberman

    Mr. Wagner:

    Do we really have to post on IPR the filings and other legal documents from all of your previous legal misadventures against the Libertarian Party of Oregon?

    Do I need to get the Mayers to write up how they had to pay thousands of dollars in legal fees to defend themselves against your lawsuit?

    Mr. Wagner – do you deny that you said at your illegal “convention” that you would never get the 2/3 vote needed to change the Bylaws of the LP of Oregon?

    Mr. Wagner can put Gary Johnson on the ballot in Oregon right now, or maybe in a few weeks when it becomes legal to do so. Why hasn’t Mr. Wagner promised to put Gary Johnson and Jim Gray on the ballot in Oregon *regardless* of what is happening or will happen in the Reeves vs. Wagner lawsuit?

  23. Michael H. Wilson

    Scott why don’t you just drop this. It is really none of your business. If you want I’ll go back as far as the early 1990’s and start letting people in on all the crap that Burke and crew produced in those years. Two can play this game and I can get more than two involved. Just drop it!

  24. Scott Lieberman

    Mr. Wilson:

    Remember – this was supposed to be a private e-mail from me to Richard Burke. The only reason I wrote that e-mail was because Mr. Wagner is trying to get the Libertarian National Committee AND the Johnson campaign to intervene in the Reeves lawsuit.

    The only reason you even know about my e-mail is because Mr. Burke accidentally forwarded it to Mr. Neale, and Mr. Neale, 0n his own, decided to post it to the entire world via Starchild’s Yahoo Group.

    So – Mr. Wilson – are you saying I don’t have the right to defend my e-mail?

  25. Joe Buchman

    Dr. Lieberman,

    What is your agenda here?

    How on earth can you imagine what you have done is at all helpful to the campaign for POTUS?

    I, for one, would appreciate your serving in your role as a member of the LNC as the bylaws cited by Mr. Wrights require.

    Joe

  26. Joe Buchman

    In case you missed them:

    Section 4. The National Committee shall . . . provide full support for the Party’s nominee for President . . .

    While apparently there is no immediate consequence to you or others for the violation of that bylaw, I’ll be present as a member of the LP in the gallery at your next meeting in Vegas to personally remind you of it as LOUDLY as I’m able.

    It’s time to stop the WAR here.

    118 1/2 more days.

    Joe

  27. zapper

    @27 It seems to me that what Mr. Wilson is saying to you, Mr. Lieberman, is that you look foolish trying to support your email.

  28. Jill Pyeatt

    You represent CALIFORNIA, Scott, not Oregon. How is this in the best interest of your Region?

  29. Wes Wagner

    SL @25 and 27

    You would have been very well served to have listeend to your own advice to discuss these matters with both sides before making up an opinion.

    Because of your political immaturity you have boxed yourself into a untenable position where the ultimate determination of facts will cause you to appear to have been an idiot, and you have travelled too far down the path already for your own ego and arrogance to allow you to admit you made a mistake.

    You may have seen some recent LNC political casualties make this same mistake and observed it in Las Vegas. You will ultimately share their fate, even though the “when” part is not determined yet.

    Regarding your questions direct questions: go right ahead; go for it; do not deny it and am proud of what I have done and would do again; and already have and the Johnson campaign knows the LNC is actively getting in the way and sabotaging them.

  30. Richard P. Burke

    All,

    This is all moot. Oregon’s ballot access is not in danger, no matter what happens. As long as we maintain a voter registration level of .5% or higher, ballot access is not dependent on any level of performance at the ballot.

    The entire issue is a red herring. If we win the lawsuit, Johnson gets filed. If Wes’ group wins the lawsuit, Johnson gets filed (we hope). We expect a ruling before our August candidate nominating convention.

    The fault for this particular snafu is entirely mine. I replied to Mr. Lieberman with information relating to Oregon’s ballot status laws, thought that Mr. Neale might benefit from the information (which is public record), added him to my reply, decided to delete him from my reply and send him a separate email (because of Scott’s comments to me were intended to be private), and then simply screwed it up. It was an accident. Happens to me once or twice per year.

    Regarding the email from Scott, I took it to mean that Scott supports the notion that a stable party organization cannot exist if a small group of officers can carry out a coup during a night meeting (if it can happen once, it can happen again), that having a stable party organization is a prerequisite to almost every other kind of success, and therefore having a stable party organization is more important than anything else. I did not take his email as being a statement against ballot access for Oregon or the Johnson/Gray ticket.

    Richard P. Burke

  31. Scott Lieberman

    Mr. Wagner:

    Do you promise to put Gary Johnson and Jim Gray on the ballot for the Libertarian Party in Oregon without any pre-conditions?

  32. wolfefan

    Hello – without regard to the merits of the Reeves vs Wagner dispute, how could it be helpful long-term for the Johnson campaign to forego ballot access in Oregon? I’m genuinely wondering how this would help, and would welcome responses from Dr Lieberman or anyone else who has a serious response.

  33. Wes Wagner

    SL@34

    That pledge has already been made publicly, so I feel no need to reitterate it to you.

    The timing and method of how and when it happens is based on certain conditions, because it is not just important that Johnson be put on the ballot, but that he remains on the ballot.

  34. Joe Buchman

    Scott @ 34,

    AGAIN, do you really believe this is helpful?

    What is YOUR agenda here?

    It’s not like the campaign is not aware of this issue. If we wanted to be calling people out on a website over this issue because we thought it might be helpful, that would have already happened.

    Could you please not go off on your own without coordinating with the people it directly affects?

    Is that really too much to ask?

    Simply put — SHUT UP.

    Joe

  35. zapper

    @34 Wes Wagner has promised to put Johnson and Gray on the ballot with no preconditions in the past, right here on IPR, on another thread.

    However, he has yet to do so, as far as has been reported, through Friday, July 6, 2012.

    Hopefully he will procede to place their names on the ballot along with placing the names of those nominated by the LP OR mail primary.

    I call on Wes Wagner to finish this process. Of course, he may be awaiting signed documents from the Johnson campaign. If so, they should follow up immediately.

    The proof for Mr. Wagner will come if he actually follows through on his promise, with no further delay, and places Johnson/Gray on the ballot.

    The proof for Burke/Reeves et al will come when they drop their legal action, disband their phoney lp takeover organization and join in the LP OR.

    Wagner, Burke and Reeves should promise not to seek any future office in any OR LP state party capacity over the next 4 years.

    Scott Lieberman should apologize to the LP membership nationwide and resign his position as an LNC Alternate.

  36. Jill Pyeatt

    Scott says at 34: “Mr. Wagner:

    Do you promise to put Gary Johnson and Jim Gray on the ballot for the Libertarian Party in Oregon without any pre-conditions?”

    What??? Now I’m really confused. I thought you didn’t want Wes to put Johnson/Gray on the ballot? Isn’t that what your letter is about?

  37. Jill Pyeatt

    zapper @ 38: ” Scott Lieberman should apologize to the LP membership nationwide and resign his position as an LNC Alternate.”

    I agree.

  38. Thomas L. Knapp

    SL@27,

    Let me see if I have your position correct here:

    The problem isn’t that you made a recommendation that directly violates your fiduciary duty as an alternate regional representative on the LNC.

    Rather, the problem is that others found out that you made that recommendation.

    Is that a reasonable summation of your position?

  39. Wes Wagner

    TK @41

    You have just hit upon why he is good friends with Richard burke.

  40. Wes Wagner

    This seriously reminds me of the time Mr. Burke was caught canoodling with a female staffer and encouraging her to steal national data assets for him.

    When the chat dialogs were published, instead of denying their authenticity or content, he screamed “MY COMPUTER WAS HACKED!” thereby confirming their authenticity.

    The two of you were made for each other.

  41. Marc Montoni

    @ zapper:

    The proof for Mr. Wagner will come if he actually follows through on his promise, with no further delay, and places Johnson/Gray on the ballot.

    The proof for Burke/Reeves et al will come when they drop their legal action, disband their phoney lp takeover organization and join in the LP OR.

    Wagner, Burke and Reeves should promise not to seek any future office in any OR LP state party capacity over the next 4 years.

    These are all excellent suggestions. However, I would strongly suggest that Mr Carling (who refused to recuse himself due to his blatant conflict of interest during the Credential Committee meeting prior to the opening of the Convention), and all four (Chairman, Secretary, Treasurer, etc) of the officers on BOTH of the LP-OR factions should all be required to resign and contractually agree to not seek Oregon LP office for four years.

  42. Wes Wagner

    MM @46

    I would do it in a heartbeat if I thought the other side would just not continue to operate through proxies as they always have.

  43. Seebeck

    Lieberman’s agenda is simple–it always has been to be a LNC Barfly and play waterboy for the Starr Chamber. Need I remind him that he was told in 2010 that both he and Weiner were to vote for funding CA’s Top Two fight or be replaced by…me? He has no role in LPOR except that agenda.

    As for LPCA, not everyone in that leadership is bad or wrong

  44. Wes Wagner

    MM @46

    Ironically I suggested such a thing earlier in 2007 … to end the conflict back then. The terms were something along the lines of , we all resign and replace the existing board with people who won’t let an executive director use the party bank account as his personal slush fund.

    It was rejected then… I don’t hold out much hope for your proposal now.

  45. Seebeck

    It’s also telling that while LPCA needs all hands on deck to help their struggling registration do-or-die drive, Lieberman is nowhere to be found except in Oregon. Nice priorities, eh?

  46. Jill Pyeatt

    Seebeck @ 50, that’s pretty much the smartest observation so far. A state that’s none of his concern, plus signing the convention contract for 2016 is what is important to our Regional Rep (albeit Alternate Rep).

    Unbef*ckinglievable.

  47. Mike Kane

    It’s truly unfortunate to see how much time is wasted over things like this. Imagine if all the energy had been used to go sell libertarianism.

  48. Richard P. Burke

    All,

    Again, let’s go back to the basics. The genesis of all of this was on March 31, 2011, when Mr. Wagner and his friends purportedly adopted new governing documents at a state committee meeting (not a properly noticed convention as called for in our governing documents), elected themselves to new terms of office under their documents, attempted to cancel a duly called session of the LPO annual convention, attempted to co-opt the force of the state to legitimize those actions.

    Nobody on this list I have directly asked thinks that such actions would be tolerated if undertaken by their state organizations or the LNC. When I asked before, my query was either ignored or was answered by a post dealing with something that happened a long time ago that has nothing to do with the current situation.

    Mr. Wagner is attempting to divert your attention from these issues by dragging up charges he made back in 2006-2007, which have all been disproved or determined to be groundless.

    Those of us who believe that bylaws approved by members in convention should never be unilaterally changed by 5 people in a night meeting will not be distracted by matters which have nothing to do with the basics of the current situation as outlined above.

    Richard P. Burke

  49. JT

    Knapp: “The problem isn’t that you made a recommendation that directly violates your fiduciary duty as an alternate regional representative on the LNC.
    Rather, the problem is that others found out that you made that recommendation.”

    I believe that’s a big part of it. I think there are a couple of other arguments that SL makes (not all are consistent with each other):

    1. SL wrote what he wrote because he was “just blowing off some steam.” This makes no sense to me. He didn’t write something like: “WW is an asshole! I hate him & those other morons!” SL gave measured advice that it would be in the GJ campaign’s “long-term best interests to sacrifice ballot access in Oregon if that is what it takes to politically neuter Wes Wagner and his group of misfits.” I don’t see how that really qualifies as blowing off steam.

    2. WW et. al were wrong in what they did, and that’s why SL wrote what he wrote. Most of his letter is just a list of “what happened.” I tend to agree with SL’s conclusion on that question. However, that’s not a good reason for recommending that ballot access should be sacrificed in order to defeat one state party faction, if need be. I still find it hard to believe that a member of the LNC would suggest that, no matter how strongly he feels about the matter.

  50. George Phillies

    “Have you ever written or said something to a friend that you would never say in public? ”

    Yes, secret conspiracies to interfere with ballot access for Gary Johnson do have that little feature, namely after publishing on IPR, LfA, PNCPD, etc., they are less secret.

  51. Rskyba

    As an Oregon volunteer who has spent time and money pushing for party success, I would love for other states to please not interfere in our affairs. We are debt free, we have more candidates than at any other time I have been involved in the party and most important, we have a chance to move beyond the pointless factional fighting which I suggest we take. No more war. End the lawsuit. Meet at a table to discuss.

  52. Austin Battenberg

    I agree with #52

    I live in California, so this Oregon issue doesn’t effect me. But all this drama regarding two different factions is taking away from campaigning for libertarian candidates in that state.

    Both factions needs to agree to come together despite their differences. We agree on a whole lot more then we disagree.

    But I know that both sides will say something like, “I would but the other side won’t.”

  53. Rskyba

    I am not part of any faction but I am active with the existing LPO governance. To Wes’ credit, he has agreed in the past to the LNC to come to a table. There has been attempts in the past to have a convention to do this where we come together to craft bylaws (which was disrupted by LNC members who flew in). My key ask is for others to simply leave us alone. If your favored faction is losing, leave it alone. If they are in the right, they will prevail, if they are not, they won’t.

  54. Be Rational

    @53 Whatever your complaint, your attack on the entire LP using the power of the state is not justified.

    It’s like you didn’t get the toy you wanted in your Happy Meal, so you decided to blow up the restaurant.

    Your parents really should have given you your own sandbox when you were young. Your development was arrested at age 3.

  55. Michael H. Wilson

    Scott I had to go take care of some Libertarian issues today which is why I did not reply earlier. But to your point. The fact that this so called private email was made public by an accident is an example of Mr. Burke’s management skills. This is a small error but you should here the excuses for the big ones. That list has been growing since 1992 or thereabouts.

  56. Wes Wagner

    Scott Lieberman posted to the LNC list:


    Wes Wagner // Jul 9, 2012 at 1:20 pm

    “SL@34

    That pledge has already been made publicly, so I feel no need to reitterate [sic] it to you.

    The timing and method of how and when it happens is based on certain conditions, because it is not just important that Johnson be put on the ballot, but that he remains on the ballot.”

    · 38 zapper // Jul 9, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    “@34 Wes Wagner has promised to put Johnson and Gray on the ballot with no preconditions in the past, right here on IPR, on another thread.

    However, he has yet to do so, as far as has been reported, through Friday, July 6, 2012.

    Hopefully he will procede [sic] to place their names on the ballot along with placing the names of those nominated by the LP OR mail primary.

    I call on Wes Wagner to finish this process. Of course, he may be awaiting signed documents from the Johnson campaign. If so, they should follow up immediately.

    The proof for Mr. Wagner will come if he actually follows through on his promise, with no further delay, and places Johnson/Gray on the ballot.

    The proof for Burke/Reeves et al will come when they drop their legal action, disband their phoney lp takeover organization and join in the LP OR.

    Wagner, Burke and Reeves should promise not to seek any future office in any OR LP state party capacity over the next 4 years.

    Scott Lieberman should apologize to the LP membership nationwide and resign his position as an LNC Alternate.”

    ************************************************************************

    The way I read this – Mr. Wagner wants to use his last few weeks as the nominal “Chair” of the Libertarian Party of Oregon to extort ridiculous concessions from the Reeves group. If Mr. Wagner does not receive those concessions, then apparently

    Mr. Wagner will remove Gary Johnson and Jim Gray from the ballot in Oregon.

    OTOH – the Reeves group has promised to put Johnson and Gray on the ballot, and keep them on the ballot,

    without any pre-conditions.

    I have send a message to the chair and a few other members of the LNC:

    Lieberman’s interpretations of my words are far beyond the pale and hardly anywhere near reality.

    As the chair is aware I am more concerned about being able to defend potential challenges.

    You have a member of your body (albeit an alternate) who is advising presidential campaigns to sabotage ballot access in affiliate states and his primary defense is “I wasn’t supposed to get caught.”

    I am registering a formal complaint against Mr. Lieberman as the chair of an affiliate.

    Sincerely,

    Wes Wagner

    Chairperson, Libertarian Party of Oregon

  57. Wes Wagner

    Also for the public record, I sent information about the paperwork required to the Johnson campaign and have been waiting for nearly a week for them to make some decisions on when and how they want to do the voter’s guide AND most importantly get the paperwork back to me.

    I can’t do anything without Johnson’s signature.

  58. Mike Van Roy

    Is there any particular reason why this dirty laundry is being made public for anyone to see?

  59. Ike Corona

    @69 http://sunlightfoundation.com/blog/2009/05/26/brandeis-and-the-history-of-transparency/

    Brandeis made his famous statement that “sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants” in a 1913 Harper’s Weekly article, entitled “What Publicity Can Do.” But it was an image that had been in his mind for decades. Twenty years earlier, in a letter to his fiance, Brandeis had expressed an interest in writing a “a sort of companion piece” to his influential article on “The Right to Privacy,” but this time he would focus on “The Duty of Publicity.” He had been thinking, he wrote, “about the wickedness of people shielding wrongdoers & passing them off (or at least allowing them to pass themselves off) as honest men.” He then proposed a remedy:

    If the broad light of day could be let in upon men’s actions, it would purify them as the sun disinfects.

    Interestingly, at that time the word “publicity” referred both to something like what we think of as “public relations” as well to the practice of making information widely available to the public (Stoker and Rawlins, 2005). That latter definition sounds a lot like what we now mean by transparency.

  60. Root's Teeth Are Awesome

    @ 69: Is there any particular reason why this dirty laundry is being made public for anyone to see?

    Unless Libertarians are transparent, they have no moral right to publicly denounce Demopublicans about their lack of transparency.

  61. Mike Van Roy

    I don’t doubt that sunlight can be a disinfectant. However, too much of it can burn you. If I was interested in getting involved in LP politics beyond being a voter this discourse would turn me off.

  62. Scott Lieberman

    http://www.lp.org/candidates/elected-officials

    “OREGON

    Charles Radley
    Tigard Water Commission, Position 5

    Richard Burke
    Tualatin Valley Water Commission, Position 4

    Richard Sager Gaston City Council, Position 3

    Shawna Clanton
    Culver Mayor”

    **********************************

    So, Richard Burke is one of only 4 elected Libertarians in Oregon.

    That means that Mr. Burke was able to convince many non-Libertarians to vote for him.

    I guess some people consider the ability to be a successful politician in the real world to be a negative.

  63. zapper

    As per @63: It’s nice to see that my comments have been forwarded on the the LNC discussion site by Scott Lieberman.

    It’s interesting to note that Scott Lieberman did NOT comprehend my post. It makes me not only question his motives but his ability to function in a world of complex ideas.

    My post did not represent Wes Wagner and was a balanced appraisal of the situation.

    My post presented a series of things that would bring about a reasonable solution based on the view of neutral unbiased LP members outside of the battle of two Oregon factions (one including a cabal of LNC interlopers).

    Each of the items presented in my list is a stand alone expectation of what these two factions should do in the interest of Liberty and in the interest of promoting the LP both in Oregon and nationwide.

    This is not a list of demands with one dependent upon another. For example, item #1, that Wes Wagner should register the candidacy of Johnson/Gray asap with the OR sec of state (as soon as the paperwork required of Johnson and Gray is returned) is not dependent on the other items.

    I have added some very wise additional suggestions from Marc Montoni at the end.

    Each of the factions in this battle claim to care about the LP. For most of them it appears that they care only about their own power and position.

    Here is the action and proof we should demand from each of the factions and individuals. Each of these 5 items is not negotiable and each is independent of the other 4 items:

    1) The proof for Mr. Wagner will come if he actually follows through on his promise, with no further delay, and places Johnson/Gray on the ballot. He has promised to do this and he should preceed as quickly as possible. The Johnson campaign has not yet provided the necessary paperwork to complete this process, so the ball is not yet in Wagner’s court on this one.

    2) The proof for Burke/Reeves et al will come when they drop their legal action, disband their phoney lp takeover organization and join in the LP OR.

    3) Wagner, Burke and Reeves should promise not to seek any future office in any OR LP state party capacity over the next 4 years.

    and as per Marc Montoni // Jul 9, 2012 at 2:37 pm

    4) … I would strongly suggest that Mr Carling (who refused to recuse himself due to his blatant conflict of interest during the Credential Committee meeting prior to the opening of the Convention), [should resign his position with the LNC and any position with the Oregon LP]

    5) and all four (Chairman, Secretary, Treasurer, etc) of the officers on BOTH of the LP-OR factions should all be required to resign and contractually agree to not seek Oregon LP office for four years.

    In the case of the currently recognized and surviving LP of OR, the officers would serve until replaced at the earliest possible date.

    The OR LP factions have turned this fiasco into a national LP event, so we get to make our demands – neutral and unbiased as pertaining the OR factions, but biased and interested in the future of Liberty and the future of the LP as a whole.

    It’s time for the two OR factions and all the various individual participants to prove that they are not seeking personal power and gain but are indeed Libertarians working in the pursuit of Liberty.

  64. Wes Wagner

    Zapper @77

    With regards to item 1 — I am incapable as stated before because Johnson has not signed the documents and given them to me.

    With regards to the rest of the suggestions, I would agree if I thought for even a moment the other side would honor the intent of the agreement and not just continue to try to control the LPO for personal political ambitions through proxies.

    The entire Reeve’s board is nothing but Burke proxies. None of them had held office in the LPO prior to Burke recruiting them, and none have ever run as candidates for the LPO for partisan office.

    Two of them were registered republican just shortly before their attempted junta and had to change their registration in order to attempt the junta.

  65. Wes Wagner

    It is also worth noting that between 2008 and 2010 for 24 months I left the organization as a demonstration of proof that I was not the cause of the issues.

    The organization had 2 full years to deal with only Burke all by themselves.

    In that time the fewest number of candidates for public office was run, the bank account was closed on a couple occasions for being overdrafted, the campaign finance filings fell out of compliance for well over a year and a half.

    The records in Oregon speak for themselves, for anyone who has ever cared to listen.

    When I returned in 2010, the bank account was reopened. Within 6 months the party had no debts. This year we have a record number of partisan candidates running for office.

    The point was proven.

    Not willing to just give up and accept this success, Mr. Burke reopened hostilities here with the aid of the LNC Inc.

    As further evidence of what the will of people in Oregon truly is, 96.5% voted in favor of the new bylaws. I half suspect you could ask for a motion to condemn Stalin and you would get a lower margin of victory.

  66. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    MVR @ 69: For most people, public shame is quite effective. Shockingly, for Dr. Lieberman, it isn’t. I honestly don’t think he knows what he did wrong.

    This is even more reason I believe he doesn’t belong on the LNC. That responsibility should be for honorable and accountable people.

  67. Wes Wagner

    JP @80

    Further he is arguing on the LNC Discuss that somehow people in Arkansas should not be expected to pay for the problems in Oregon.

    Mr Lieberman was on the committee that helped cause the problem — and of course the issue was created by the vote of members of the LNC Inc.

    It is as if no one in this organizations understands culpability and personal responsiblity anymore.

    If anything Mr. Leiberman should be writing a check himself to reclaim his honor.

  68. Wes Wagner

    All apologies for misspelling Dr. Lieberman’s name and not using the appropriate title.

  69. Richard P. Burke

    All,

    With regard to Wagner @78, he is deomonstrably wrong.

    Carla Pealer has been a registered Libertarian since 1998, ran for the Oregon legislature (where she won about 7% in a 3-way race) and is a former LPO Vice Chair.

    Greg Burnett has been an LPO member on and off for years, has attended several conventions and provided advertising and media services at cost to a number of our candidates over the years through his media company.

    Tim Reeves and Eric Saub had been registered as Republicans to support prior Ron Paul bids, but Tim is the head of the Oregon 10th Amendment Center and Eric Saub has been active with Americans for Prosperity, founded by our 1980 nominee for Vice President. Both hold views on fiscal and social issues consistent with the Libertarian platform.

    All of the county representatives are Libertarians of many years, all of whom either have held state committee positions and/or ran for partisan office prior to the current snafu.

    Mr. Wagner’s accounts of past events are typically as accurate and complete as this one, which is demonstrably false.

    Richard P. Burke

  70. Jeremy C. Young

    Scott @76 says:

    So, Richard Burke is one of only 4 elected Libertarians in Oregon.

    That means that Mr. Burke was able to convince many non-Libertarians to vote for him.

    I guess some people consider the ability to be a successful politician in the real world to be a negative.

    I guess some people consider the ability to get elected to a local water commission to be an important positive.

  71. zapper

    @83

    So, it appears that Wes Wagner was wrong about Carla Pealer who was LPO vice chair and ran for state rep at some time during the last 14 years.

    … and you have confirmed that he was correct about the other 3 individuals, including 2 who were registered Republicans and had to change their registrations just prior to your legal action.

    3 out of 4 for Wagner. A very minor miss on one. Not Bad.

  72. Wes Wagner

    I will conceed the point about Peeler in 1998. I was unaware of that race from a decade and a half ago.

    Burnett was a party member, but also a registered republican the entire time. As stated.

    Saub and Reeves were completely uninvolved in the party until shortly before the November convention.

    Ms. Peeler has been involved in the party fo ra long time, but of course was a personal relation of Mr. Burke’s. I was unaware of her prior run for office.

    That one point I will conceed.

  73. zapper

    @76 and @84:

    How many individuals who began their political careers as Water Commissioner have risen to POTUS, VP, US Senate or Governor?

    Anyone?

  74. Scott Lieberman

    “zapper // Jul 10, 2012 at 10:57 am

    How many individuals who began their political careers as Water Commissioner have risen to POTUS, VP, US Senate or Governor?

    Anyone?”

    ************************************

    Water Commissioner? Off the top of my head? None.

    How about Resource Conservation District? I can think of one person: Ronald Reagan.

    http://www.victoria4edit.com/blog/?p=136

    Coincidentally, Ronald Reagan’s first political job was his election to the Board of the TLVRCD [Topanga-Las Virgenes Resource Conservation District] : having a ranch in the area in the 1950s was the reason he got involved. We all know what that position eventually led to!

  75. Richard P. Burke

    All,

    Concerning Wagner @79, All I can say is that Mr. Wagner is providing an incomplete history.

    In 2006 and 2007 Mr. Wagner harassed the State Committee legally, suing the state committee with a Writ of Mandamas (dismissed) based on his assertions that LPO officers were not doing their jobs, filing criminal charges against me alleging that I forged a campaign document,(dismissed), attempting to recall all of the LPO officers (he lost 2:1), threatening the vote tellers with lawsuits if they participate in tallying the votes, working to help his friends sue the LPO after their recall loss on the grounds that the election was not handled properly (dismissed), and writing letters to the donor base repeating all of these allegations. Mr. Wagner was also quoted in the Oregonian as saying something like “if the LPO cannot be reformed [to his liking], he will bring it down.”

    Prior to that, fundraising had gone up every year, the number of candidates we were fielding was up every year, and the number of elected office holders was up every year.

    Mr. Wagner was hardly detached from the organization during his two years. Predictably, these disruptions caused a lot of donor problems which resulted in financial distress that Mr. Wagner wants to hang around my neck. Nice.

    Well, again, back to the basics. None of those issues has anything to do with the current dispute as they do not answer whether it is okay to:

    1. Replace governing bylaws at a night meeting of the state committee, not a convention, in clear violation of the LPO’s governing documents.

    2. Elect oneself and one’s friends to new terms of office under those bylaws.

    3. Cancel a properly called session of the LPO Annual convention.

    Twist and writhe as he might, attempt to distract as he might, most Libertarians (even most of those in the radical faction) would answer the above three points with a resounding “NO”. They would not tolerate the same from the LNC. I’m sure that if my friends and I had done what Mr. Wagner and his friends did, I’m quite sure that we would be falling under criticism on this blog and by Mr. Wagner and his friends.

    To be sure, it is Mr. Wagner and his friends who attempted a “coup” in a night meeting. In contrast, we participated in a properly called session of the LPO Annual Business Convention (requested by Mr. Wagner himself), operating under rules adopted by LPO members at convention.

    Richard P. Burke

  76. zapper

    Unrelated to this topic then, but an article that explores the beginnings of the political careers of high office holders who started in very minor offices might encourage more LPers to start at the beginning where they have a better chance of winning and establishing themselves, and subsequently working their way up.

  77. Richard P. Burke

    All,

    One other thing about Wagner@79,

    My time as Executive Director ended in October of 2008. So where he got this idea that the party got to deal with “me” for two years (2008-10) without Mr. Wagner’s interference is hogwash. The damage from Mr. Wagner’s prior legal violence against the LPO was done. Again, Mr. Wagner provides an incomplete and inaccurate account.

    Richard P. Burke

  78. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I’d like to point out that, with the exception of Mr. Burke, NO ONE has come to Scott’s defense. On the LNC Discuss List, the only person who has stood up for Scott is WAR, who is himself an expert on purges.

    I’m dismayed that the only defense Scott brings forth for himself is history of the Oregon dispute, WHICH IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE. The issue is Dr. Lieberman NOT supporting our chosen presidential candidate, which violates the bylaw which has been quoted here on this thread several times.

    Stop changing the subject, Scott. How do you excuse a parliamentarian such as yourself breaking a very straightforward bylaw?

  79. Richard P. Burke

    Zapper @ 92,

    I agree with the point you make here. Listen – I will admit that water politics isn’t sexy like partisan politics is. But it’s big. My constituency is about 200,000. We deal in multi-billion dollar contracts for wholesale water purchases. The handling of water makes economic development possible.

    And a lot can be done ideologically. In the case of my board, The Tualatin Valley Water District no longer takes any property taxes and we are the first municipal government in the nation to incorporate medicinal marijuana into our employee policy. I’ve also fought two eminent domain property seizure attempts.

    Richard P. Burke

  80. Richard P. Burke

    Correction @93,

    My time as the LPO’s Executive Director ended in October of 2007, not 2008.

    Sorry.

    Richard P. Burke

  81. Richard P. Burke

    Jill @ 94,

    I would suspect that the reason nobody besides me has come to Scott’s defence is because we are among the very few of our faction within the LP to participate on this blog.

    Richard P. Burke

  82. zapper

    @93 It does seem a shame, Mr. Burke, that while you seem to recognize the destructiveness of taking legal action against an underfunded, voluntary association of individuals as you clearly and correctly point out regarding Mr. Wagner’s previous transgressions (which I would oppose had I a time machine to do so), you have, nevertheless, both with the benefit of your own experience and the benefit of hindsight, chosen to undertake an even more destructive legal action in the same vein as those actions which you rightly castigate.

    While pointing fingers, I suggest that you reserve a big fat one to aim toward your own exposed countenance.

  83. paulie

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LNCDiscussPublic/message/1205

    I posted last night on LNC discuss:

    Howdy folks

    I’m just getting back from another day of petitioning here in Maryland – thankfully no longer “heat advisory.” We have more petitioners coming in by car, bus, plane, train and parachute and will have no trouble finishing on time. 

    I agree that we should stop with the purges and the voting each other “off the island” already. Maybe pay a bit more attention to “small” matters such as affiliate support, outreach materials, campus organizing, candidate recruitment, fundraising, membership growth, etc., that I have seen little discussion of on this list yet  in my short time as a member. Perhaps even before it is our turn to be the next bunch of “do nothing bums” who get voted out. 

    As previously mentioned I do not agree with Dr. Lieberman to any extent that he said or implied that ballot access should be sacrificed. He did not mean to make such a suggestion public, and to the extent that he made it to Mr. Burke as a suggestion to pass along to the Johnson campaign in his capacity as state director, I believe that the Johnson campaign knows better than to take such advice were it to be offered, regardless of the source. 

    Since Scott is passing along IPR comments I thought I would pass along two that I found interesting: 
    ——————–

    Scott Lieberman // Jul 9, 2012 at 1:17 pm

    Mr. Wagner:

    Do you promise to put Gary Johnson and Jim Gray on the ballot for the Libertarian Party in Oregon without any pre-conditions?

    —————————

    To which my friend Dr. Joe Buchman, a volunteer with the Johnson campaign national HQ in Utah who participates in daily calls with the campaign management, replied:

    ————————————

    Joe Buchman // Jul 9, 2012 at 1:24 pm

    Scott @ 34,

    AGAIN, do you really believe this is helpful?

    What is YOUR agenda here?

    It’s not like the campaign is not aware of this issue. If we wanted to be calling people out on a website over this issue because we thought it might be helpful, that would have already happened.

    Could you please not go off on your own without coordinating with the people it directly affects?

    Is that really too much to ask?

    Simply put — SHUT UP.

    Joe

    ——————–

    p] Without necessarily endorsing Joe’s undiplomatic language, and without claiming that he is speaking for the campaign in any official capacity, I take this as a sign that the Johnson campaign would prefer to handle the Oregon matter privately and not further provoke the warring factions. 

    One other matter in regards to Oregon. It has been related to me that Geoff was supposed to follow up with Wes Wagner in discussing the situation in Oregon according to the minutes of a 6/3/12 Exec Comm conference call (I believe these minutes have already been published). Wes Wagner says that he has not heard from Geoff since then. 

    See http://libertyforamerica.com/201207.pdf

    pp 2-3

    Hopefully this matter can be resolved and we can get some actual work done, because this country and the world needs a Libertarian alternative and it is up to us to give them one. 

    Let’s end the Libertarian civil war!

    Peace, Love, Liberty

    An Alternative Regional Alternate, Lucky Region 7

    Paulie 415-690-6352 cell – call 24/7, 365 1/4

    On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 8:05 PM, WAYNE ROOT <wayne@rootforamerica.com> wrote:

    Lee,

    What Scott suggested to someone via email is not a violation of anything.

    If you ever heard what I said in a private email, I’m sure you’re head would explode! LOL

    LP has to stop the witch hunts, purges and internal firing squads.

    You know what I think…This party is self-destructive…I’ve never in my life seen anything like this.

    This party doesn’t want to win a race for anything. This party is more concerned with purges.

    Is my opinion above a violation too?

    Do we purge people for having opinions?

    Just calm down and drop it before this gets beyond the silly stage…to pure suicidal idiocy.

    Wayne

    On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 4:46 PM, R. Lee Wrights <rleewrights@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 4:43 PM, Tony Ryan <trleap@aol.com> wrote:
    But what about your comment, fellow alternate?
    TR
     
     
    Yes, exactly.  Particularly considering this:
     

    ARTICLE 14: PRESIDENTIAL AND VICE-PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS

    Section 4. The National Committee shall respect the vote of the delegates at Nominating Conventions and provide full support for the Party’s nominee for President and nominee for Vice-President as long as their campaigns are conducted in accordance with the Platform of the Party.

    In my opinion Dr. Lieberman has violated this by-law. Can someone explain to me how Dr. Lieberman has “not” violated this section of our national By-laws? 

    Our members are screaming over this one and I can’t say that I blame them. So, what do we do when one of our alternates violates the By-laws?  In other words, what are our options in this situation?

    Lee Wrights
    Vice Chair
    Libertarian Party

    _______________________________________________
    Lnc-discuss mailing list
    Lnc-discuss@hq.lp.org
    http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-discuss_hq.lp.org
  84. Wes Wagner

    And to think, in all that time Mr Burke was busy with all those great accomplishments, he still had time to use the LPO party treasury as his own personal slush fund and in the words of former Treasurer, Christiana Mayer, to “(buy) groceries for his apartment, again.”

    He also had the time to find people silly enough to put their reputation and money on the line defending his behavior after only learning half of the story… a practice to this day that includes people like Dr. Lieberman.

  85. zapper

    @95 You seem to take a very positive position toward your own personal political contribution.

    That is good, and I applaud you.

    So, it seems to me that all involved should take the outsider’s point of view to heart.

    Wagner puts the ticket on the ballot.

    Reeves et al drops the suit.

    All the officers in both LPOs, Lieberman and Carling resign their LNC and LPO posts and take a cooling off period.

    The current LPO remains with new officers elected according to the newly enacted rules, with all the old officers of both groups out.

    Everyone can continue their own personal LP political action at local levels, assisting campaigns etc.

    We can all get on with building the LP.

    Stop fighting. Cool off. Get moving.

    Liberty is too important for fights among our LP family members.

  86. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I still can’t help but laugh at the irony of Scott demanding to know if Wagner will put Johnson/Gray on the ballot. –Hello!–This whole thread has to do with the fact that Scott thinks that their names should NOT be on the ballot, remember?

  87. Richard P. Burke

    Zapper @ 98,

    After Mr. Wagner’s coup of March 31, 2011, the Secretary of State told us that they would only accept governing documents from an outgoing chair or a judge regardless of the merits of the situation. Mr. Wagner would not step down, so we went to court.

    Had Mr. Wagner abided by the governing documents passed by members at convention, the current situation would not exist.

    We hope to set a precedent saying that one man cannot unilaterally change the governing documents of a party, place themselves in office indefinitely, and act in violation of the rights of members as defined in an organization’s governing documents. The alternative, doing nothing, simply holds forth the promise that at some future time, someone else will do what Mr. Wagner has tried to do.

    I’m not sure how any libertarian could be OK with what he did. They’d never tolerate that from the LNC nor would they tolerate it in their state.

    But In Mr. Wagner’s case in 2006-07, he faced no such dilemma. There was no Sec. of State telling him that he could only get his way by going to curt or convincing the state chair to do something. His litigation, which he lost, was purely elective. Mr. Wagner could have worked to win a a mandate at state convention. But prior to driving leaders out with litigation or threats of litigation, he was never able to do it. Even when he had nominal control over the State Committee, and his friends held all of the officer positions, he couldn’t do it. He could only do it in a night meeting through a coup which even they acknowledge was in violation of our proper bylaws.

    Richard P. Burke

  88. Wes Wagner

    And as I said, I would wholeheartedly agree to the framework Zapper proposes @101 if the other side could act in good faith.

    The problem of course is that Mr. Burke is not an honest politician (the definition of which is one who when bought stays bought). A statesperson can work with an honest politician if pragmatism requires it… but not a dishonest one.

  89. Richard P. Burke

    Zapper @101,

    Your proposal is amusing. It might be worth considering if it included reinstating the legitimate bylaws passed by members in convention instead of putting in place bylaws written by a few people passed in a night meeting. That is the central issue here.

    We can’t reward coups, especially in the Party of Principle. If people want to change the rules, they need to do it legitimately even if it takes a lot of time and effort. Sometimes, upholding principles is difficult and costly. But if upholding principles were easy, everyone would do it all the time.

    Richard P. Burke

  90. George Phillies

    @101 There seems to be a fundamental problem here, namely you need to have yet another set of people willing to do the work of running a state party. This appears unlikely to be possible in the real world.

  91. Joe Buchman

    Scott, Richard, Wes, et al,

    I fail to see anything useful from the battle being waged here.

    There are other ways to end a Civil War within the party which I doubt would be to anyone’s current benefit. IMO you’ve all got your hand on a trigger for that, one I personally would rather not see pulled.

    Like Paulie I urge you all to work this out, and for what it’s worth, to do so before the end of the LNC meeting a week from today.

    This is an embarrassment which, to the degree it extends beyond the borders of Oregon, benefits NO ONE — except perhaps the interests of every non-Libertarian political entity, and force for the imprisonment of Liberty, nationwide.

    I just gotta wonder — is that what allyoualls engaged in your self-destructive behaviors really want here?

  92. Wes Wagner

    Context — What is really going on here:

    Just to frame this entire set of unfortunately circumstances, I put forward the following political theory.

    It is my belief that after the devastating defeat in Las Vegas (in part due to the outgoing officer’s totalitarian control freak behaviors, most notably including the attempted Oregon parliamentary coup), that faction is in fact doubling down on Oregon.

    They are willing to throw the Johnson campaign, the party and everyone under the bus — whatever it takes to declare victory in Oregon because they see it as a necessary keystone to build their arching case for political resurgence.

    They likewise will do everything to sabotage the effectiveness of the existing LNC, which has been making rookie mistakes in playing straight into their hands.

    That is why you see the behaviors of Mr. Burke and Dr. Lieberman being so far outside the pale. If they can win in Oregon today, they can then use the time between now and the next convention laying the groundwork for their political resurgence and hope that the means by which it was accomplished are forgotten.

    The intricacies of why things happened in Oregon the way they did will always be lost on outsiders, and will fall upon factional lines of only the most involved wonks, who from a vote-gathering perspective at the convention are not possible votes to be captured anyway.

    It is therefor only natural that BAMMERs (by any means necessary meet every requirement) would act in this manner, attempting to throw a record slate of brand new partisan libertarian candidates under the bus, throwing Johnson under the bus, and throwing the registered libertarians of Oregon under the bus who want nothing to do with the illegitimate government Mr. Burke wishes to press upon them so that they can be farmed as subjects once again.

    In defense of their actions, the try to point to my prior acts. Yes I persecuted people… but the cause for such persecution was because they were engaged in a coverup of financial fraud.

    Mr. Burke was never exonerated as he claims.

    The Secretary of State indirectly implicated him of forgery in their letter, but stated that they were not the department to hand forgery.

    Judge Hernandez of Washington County refused to order the party treasurer to produce the books because of 1st amendment issues. His words were along the lines of, “I do not believe I have the authority to do this, and I wouldn’t even if I thought I did.” (note to crooks out there, if you want to run a racketeering organization, do it as a political party – you have even more protection than a church)

    The small claims court judge actually ruled that there was compelling evidence of election fraud, declared me as “admirable”, but stated she would and could not award damages because party bylaws do not allow for them.

    Every “vindication” Burke claims in defense is actually a matter of prosecutorial discretion. No one want sto touch a political party with a 10 foot pole.

    Every “victim” he claims, earned their status by actively working to cover up the actions of a petty crook.

    Dr. Lieberman is just another in a long line of Burke’s victims. He was taken in by Mr. Burke’s ability to play the victim. This is of course still Dr. Lieberman’s fault — so I will feel no remorse for whatever consequences come to him as a result of being taken in by Mr. Burke and also not even listening to his own advice to talk to both sides before making up an opinion.

    In short, these are desperate people who have nothing to lose.

    A month from now Mr. Burke will be back with some explanation as to why this court case is not resolved yet… and there will be a few more people lining up to defend him.

    The honest among you need to finish this now.

  93. zapper

    @106 With a list of local, state and national LP Oregon members’ email addresses and phone numbers, I could find a new group willing to replace the old, end the fighting, take on the job and guide the OR LP through the election and into the near future.

    It’s quite likely that there are others who could do this even better than I. Hopefully someone will step forward and take on this task.

    @104 & @105

    Yes, here we have clearly stated the reasons why we need to move forward with new blood rather than backward.

    The new leaders can call a convention to ratify or change the governing documents for the LPO at a later date.

    Both sides refuse to surrender to each other. Each side is partially correct and partially wrong and neither wants to lose face nor admit their own faults.

    Where is the nearest chandelier.

    We need to find a new group of officers to take over and get the fighting Oregonians to step back, cool off and take a breather.

    I’m sure there are well-intentioned, decent Libertarians involved on both sides of this battle. We need to help them to stop fighting and move on.

  94. Wes Wagner

    Zapper @109

    Give me some time to get past all the bureaucracy of getting 35-45 people on the ballot and I can get you that contact information assembled of all the neutrals and indifferent.

  95. George Phillies

    This seems to be off the track of the original issue, namely a member of our national committee, a Regional Alternate, attempting to keep our Presidential candidate off the ballot in Oregon.

    My rational first concern was that the alleged message from Lieberman was a fake that had taken in Mr Burke and Mr Neale, but that’s not the case.

    Readers will note that Mr Burke’s clear statement that knocking Johnson off the Oregon ballot will have no effect on later ballot access in Oregon says in particular that doing so will not hurt the Oregon Party in a legal way, as opposed to harming its credibility.

    To point out what zapper has missed, but which Mr Wagner has pointed out to the LNC, at this point the problem is not Wagner submitting paperwork, it is that the LNC’s misconduct over the past year makes it unclear how Johnson can be put on the ballot and kept there, or how Mr Wagner is to be protected from legal liability if he does so.

  96. Richard P. Burke

    All,

    I think Joe Buchman @107 is right, in part, that these issues certainly won’t be settled here. The only reason I participate in this blog at all is to keep the misinformation from getting too far out of hand; I certainly have no illusions about solving anything here.

    Regarding Johnson, I believe that all of the concerns about his ballot status in Oregon are ill founded. When Mr. Wagner finally is placed in a situation where he can’t avoid filing the paperwork, he’ll do it. We will also file the paperwork. So no matter who wins the pending court case, Johnson will be regarded as having filed properly.

    I do, however, think this thread has outrun it’s utility.

    Richard P. Burke.

  97. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    RPB: “I do, however, think this thread has outrun it’s (sic) utility.”

    I do NOT believe this thread is over. Dr. Lieberman still has not explained his actions in disregarding his elected duties as per the bylaws. Perhaps he has no intention to, but he needs to know the people who elected him aren’t satisfied.

  98. Richard P. Burke

    Buchman@107,

    One last thing…

    Love the Star Trek reference. I’m a hard core Star Trek fan. I understand the analogy you are trying to create, but it doesn’t really hold up.

    Kirk offered life in the Federation where the rights of it’s citizens were protected and they were governed by laws that were respected (at least on TV). That’s certainly worth fighting for and Kirk fought for it on many occasions. I make no claim to be Kirk, but I’m fighting for an organization where the rights of it’s members are protected and governance comes from member-approved bylaws. Sure, it’s painful now, but it promises a better future. And a more stable organization in the long run.

    Bele and Lokai were actually one and the same – both tried to use force to limit the rights of their opponents and impose their vision over the entirety of their planet using that force.

    If the latter paradigm is allowed to prevail in the LP, I don’t know if it is an organization that has any chance of accomplishing it’s stated goals.

    Richard P. Burke

  99. zapper

    @111 I haven’t missed anything. Yes there are issues due to the actions of the LNC and the Burke/Reeeves group, but these have happend, we cannot go back in time and undo them. So, we have to move forward in a riskier environment and do the right thing – putting Johnson on the ballot is the right thing for Wagner to do.

    Likewise, there may be some legal risk for Wagner. Same answer.

    Wagner still has to do the right thing and put the ticket on.

  100. George Phillies

    Dear Zapper. Thank you for your proposal that someone else should risk their own money for your convenience. Thank you for reminding us you most closely resemble the south end of a north bound horse.

  101. Thomas L. Knapp

    RPB @ 105,

    “Your proposal is amusing. It might be worth considering if it included reinstating the legitimate bylaws passed by members in convention instead of putting in place bylaws written by a few people passed in a night meeting. That is the central issue here.”

    That was a legitimate issue. Now it’s a moot point, since the new bylaws have been ratified with the approval of more than 95% of those members who chose to vote on them.

    “We can’t reward coups”

    Damn straight. That’s why neither the state election authority nor the LNC should recognize as party leadership a group elected by a self-selected “state committee” at least partly composed of non-LPOR members and even of of officials from other parties.

    Of course, neither of these points addresses the real issue of the thread: Is it appropriate for an LNC representative to recommend that ballot access for the LNC’s presidential ticket be sacrificed if that’s what it takes to make the Burke/Reeves coup successful?

  102. zapper

    Actually, Buchman’s Startrek reference is right on point. The two characters fight until all life on their planet has ended, and then they still continue to fight.

    The issues that seem so important here are not worth total destruction – not to those outside of Oregon and not to LP members and supporters in Oregon who are outside the fray.

    If both sides stand down, the new leadership and the rest of the membership can make new decisions regarding the governing documents.

    Neither of the current belligerent sides has to win or lose.

    Yes there are important principles and issues, and it may be better to leave them unresolved, unsettled, no winners, no losers, no resolution for now. For the good of all we stop fighting and move on.

    We just need to ask everyone to Please stand down for the good of the LP, the Johnson campaign, and all the other LPO campaigns this year.

    They do have to agree to let others run the LPO for a while, and get things moving forward again, on into the future toward Liberty.

  103. zapper

    GP @116 I think that right now you are being unhelpful in trying to score points of some kind. There is actually some movement towards resolution going on if we focus on the big issues and move past the minor disagreements that can never be resolved.

  104. Lavra

    MK @52: Agreed. It’s also depressing to see legitimate articles on IPR about candidates/ballot access/spreading the message go by with maybe a dozen comments.. but then “he said-she said-he forwarded my email-so and so purged so and so” gossip articles get hundreds of comments.

    So much wasted energy.

  105. Steve M

    l also believe that the focus of the parties in Oregon should be on putting the Johnson ticket on the ballot and keeping it there.

    As far as the risk of legal action in doing so, well if you can’t stand the heat then get out of the kitchen.

    It has been my opinion that lawyers are so risk adverse that nothing would get done if they had their way… well other then to accrue billable hours.

    It is time to stop acting like lawyers and start acting like business executives. Minimize the risk and get into action.

  106. paulie

    Lavra –

    “If it bleeds it leads” – sadly true here as in the “real” news…

    Unrelated:

    Give me a call if you get a chance 415-690-6352

  107. George Phillies

    It has now been reported to me that Wes Wagner will appear at the LNC meeting and make a formal complaint about Lieberman. Because Oregon is in no region, Wagner will be allowed I am told to act as his own Regional Representative.

  108. Steve M

    George,

    My problem with that is that Scott isn’t even a regional representative he is an alternate. But even given that he is an alternate selected by the Arizona, California, Nevada, New Mexico and New York (?) state parties. So taking a complaint to the LNC is taking it to the wrong group. Oh and a waist of time and effort that could be used for something constructive.

    I am not convinced that either Wes or his nemesis Richard are interested in being constructive. This is why I stated in #121 “that the focus of the parties in Oregon should be on putting the Johnson ticket on the ballot and keeping it there.”

    Wes whining about Lieberman isn’t constructive or productive. far better Lieberman be allowed to eat his words and we move forward.

    Far better Wes do what ever He can do to get Johnson on the ballot in Oregon!

  109. From Der Sidelines

    Perhaps Wagner is more intent on simply informing the LNC what the actual status of everything is rather than complain about Lieberman. In any case, the LNC, while it cannot suspend Lieberman, even though he deserves it, can censure him, and they should.

  110. paulie

    George @123, Lee Wrights will act as his regional rep.

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LNCDiscussPublic/message/1231

    Begin forwarded message:


    From: “R. Lee Wrights” <rleewrights@gmail.com>
    Date: July 10, 2012 3:45:56 PM PDT
    To: Geoffrey Neale <liber8or@austin.rr.com>
    Cc: Wes Wagner <wes.wagner@gmail.com>, LNC Discussion <LNC-Discuss@hq.lp.org>
    Subject: Re: [Lnc-discuss] Complaint about Mr Lieberman

    On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 12:05 PM, Geoffrey Neale <liber8or@austin.rr.com> wrote:

    Mr. Wrights:

    I am forwarding this email from Mr. Wagner of Oregon.

     
     
    Thank you, Mr. Chair.
     

     

    Our Policy Manual (under Affiliate Support Committee) states: “For any affiliate not in a region, the Vice-Chair will serve the same intermediary role that

    Regional Representatives serve for the affiliates in their respective regions.”

     
     
    Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
     

     

    Please correct me if I’m wrong, but it appears from our “leadership” page on lp.org that Oregon is not currently in a region.

     
     
    I have confirmed with the state chair that this is true.  Oregon does not currently belong to any of the seven regions represented on the LNC.
     
     

      Therefore, you in your elected role as Vice-Chair are the representative of the Oregon LP before the LNC.

     
     
    I agree. According to our Policy Manual you are correct.
     
     

      I feel that regional representatives should be responsible for delivering formal complaints on behalf of their region’s affiliates to the LNC as a whole, just as they are responsible for bringing any other matters before the LNC.

     
     
    I wholeheartedly agree.
     

     

    I leave this matter to you to decide whether this is an issue that needs to be raised before or during the upcoming LNC meeting, especially given that the meeting is only a few days away.  However, let me be clear: I do not think a formal complaint from an affiliate chair is an issue that can be ignored on the sole discretion of a single LNC member.  It is my opinion that you are compelled to bring this before the LNC.

     
     
    Again, I have to agree. Therefore, I have asked Mr. Wagner for a formal written complaint that I will present to the whole LNC. I expect to receive something from him within the next 24 hours.
     

     

    Please feel free to distribute my comments.

     

    Yours in Liberty,

    Geoffrey Neale

    Chair

    Libertarian Party

     
     
    Thank you again for binging this matter to my attention. I will do my best to represent any and all “orphaned” states that do not have a regional home.
     
    Please, inform the state chairs, via their list of which I am not a member, that this is to be our policy moving forward.
     
     
    Lee Wrights
    Vice Chair
    Libertarian Party
     
     
  111. George Phillies

    From separate sources I gather that Mr Wagner will not personally be traveling to Las Vegas. The nature of the complaint should be fairly obvious.

  112. Stewart Flood

    What result will come from a formal complaint? The LNC cannot remove a regional representative, unless he or she misses three consecutive meetings and is removed procedurally by the Secretary.

    The regional chairs (in whatever manner is designated in their agreement) are the “court” in which a complaint would be heard. I believe that their agreement would likely stipulate that California alone decides in this matter, so any complaint would have to be sent to the California LP.

  113. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Paulie, I fixed that the morning you pointed it out.
    I was actually quite embarrassed by such a silly mistake.

  114. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Really, only CA? I thought all 5 state chairs voted on whether to remove him, and only a simple majority is needed. I’m still not hopeful that he’ll be removed, but just embarrassing
    Scott and making him squirm seems worth the effort. Perhaps he won’t continue to be so arrogant and argumentative (okay, a girl can dream, can’t she? Humor me, pleas–it’s my birthday–)

  115. Joe Buchman

    Jill,

    HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

    Call me. I’ll sing. Am driving to Vegas now . . . (and online at IPR . . .)

  116. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    JB–driving and online at the same time? That’s a good trick–

  117. zapper

    “JB–driving and online at the same time? That’s a good trick-” … but a bad idea. If you’re the one actually driving -Please don’t drive and read, blog, post, twitter … The LP needs you.

  118. paulie

    Jill, Happy B-Day!

    I realized you fixed the post – my comment was in response to Steve M @124; sorry for not making that clear.

    All:

    Lee Wrights has brought the formal complaint to the LNC on behalf of Wes Wagner. As others have pointed out, the LNC is not empowered to remove regional people; write the state chairs if you care one or the other.

  119. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Does anyone know if it’s a vote by all 5 state chairs in the region, or just CA?

  120. Stewart Flood

    My understanding is that the California ByLaws require that they appoint their representative and alternate.

    When they were in the triple region with us, the agreement stated that they appointed one representative and alternate. Their state chair would be involved in the removal/appointment of the other representatives, but the other states could not remove the California representatives.

    Quite understandable, considering that California is more than 10% of the membership without any other states.

    I am 99.99997% positive that only California can remove or appoint the California representatives.

  121. Stewart Flood

    That said, I have no idea what the internal procedures in California would be. It should be either your state chair or executive committee.

  122. Ad Hoc

    Stewart – I think CA’s region agreement this new term might be different. I do believe I have heard that both alternates are now alternates for both reps. Rather than one alternate being asigned to a rep. Not sure if that means all the state chairs in the region elect both alternates or not.

  123. Stewart Flood

    They served as alternates for all representatives the last time. What I am talking about is their election / removal process. That could not change without action of the California LP and a change to their rules.

  124. paulie

    Lavra – thanks for the call.

    All: I guess that means if you really think Scott crossed the line and something needs to be done – or if you think the people saying so are off base, and need to be countered – you’ll need to direct your opinions to Kevin Takenaga.

    In my experience, Kevin is not easy to get a hold of. I don’t know how it is for others.

    The LNC will now spend some time on this but the most that could result would be a statement of rebuke, not any concrete action.

  125. Kevin Knedler

    If some folks give up on the “drama” on the LNC, they should seriously consider putting their efforts (Time, Talent, Treasurer) into some state parties. I find it far more enjoyable working at a state level. And I should know.

  126. Mark Axinn

    I am New York State Chair. I consider Scott Lieberman a friend and colleague, but he is not my state’s representative nor its alternative representative.

    My state is very well represented on the LNC by Brett Pojunis and LPNY Vice Chair Audrey Capozzi. California, a wonderful member of our double region, has designated Mr. Wiener and Dr. Lieberman to represent its interests on LNC and to the best of my knowledge, that is what they do. New York did not participate in their selection in any manner whatsoever.

    I don’t know why Dr. Lieberman has chosen to be involved in the Oregon situation. I have read quit a lot about it and have come to a very important conclusion regarding the dispute between the Reeves and Wagner factions: it’s none of my business. As a Libertarian, I try not to meddle in other people’s affairs; I have enough problems at home to involve myself in something which does not affect my state or me.

    I loved the Star Trek clip!

  127. Ad Hoc

    We’d like to see Johnson not miss the ballot there. Other than that I concur, let them figure it out themselves.

  128. Formal complaint filed

    ———- Forwarded message ———-
    From: Wes Wagner
    Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 12:03 AM
    Subject: Formal Complaint about the conduct of Dr. Lieberman
    To: “R. Lee Wrights”

    Mr. Wrights,

    Thank you for advising me of my rights to register this complaint with you so that it may be heard and considered by the LNC. It is unfortunate that, as my representative to the LNC, our first business must be under such circumstances.

    The issue I wish to raise with you, and its particulars, are known to some on the committee already as I have seen from the traffic on the LNC-Discuss list.

    As a matter of formality I will put forward an official allegation that on July 4th, 2012, also celebrated as Independence Day, Dr. Lieberman wrote the following to a man he later identified as his “friend”, Mr. Richard Burke, State Director for the Johnson Campaign in Oregon:

    On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Scott L. wrote:

    Help!

    Starchild is posting most of our lnc-discuss e-mails on the Internet, so I don’t feel bad about sending this to you.

    I think you work for the Johnson campaign. Please make it clear to them that it is in their long-term best interests to sacrifice ballot access in Oregon if that is what it takes to politically neuter Wes Wagner and his group of misfits.

    When will a ruling be issued in your lawsuit against Wagner?

    Scott Lieberman

    I allege that Mr. Lieberman’s actions are a violation of national party bylaws, specifically Article 14, Section 4. I also argue that even if they were not a plain violation of the bylaws, they rise to a level worthy of action.

    It is my belief that no reasonable person would conclude that the delegates at the national convention would have anything else in mind regarding what should happen in Oregon with regards to Gary Johnson’s placement on the ballot when they chose to nominate him, and that this action is indefensible on its face. His conduct after this issue has come to light is likewise known to you, so I will not belabor the point to document it here.

    I therefor petition the committee to consider this matter, and to levy upon Dr. Lieberman the highest punishment permissible by the bylaws of the LNC and deliver a request to all of your affiliates in Region 4 to likewise duly consider Dr. Lieberman’s actions and consider passing the highest form of punishment upon Dr. Lieberman which their rules allow; and/or any action you deem reasonable and just.

    It was my intent as Chairperson of Oregon to not bring controversy to this LNC so that it would be possible for wounds to heal and for the LNC to not be belabored by issues of the past and so that you may focus on other pressing concerns.

    Dr. Lieberman’s actions have unfortunately made that position one that I cannot exercise in entirety if I were to place the best interests of the entire membership of the LNC in mind in addition to the interests of the members of my state affiliate. I hope we can dispose of this matter promptly and return to the fine policy of allowing the LNC to focus on more productive efforts.

    With regrets,
    Wes Wagner
    Chairperson, Libertarian Party of Oregon

  129. Seebeck

    California’s rules and procedures on regional reps are in their Bylaws (Bylaw 17). I ought to know as I was the guy who rewrote them a couple of years ago to make them readable.

    If the regional agreement specifies the arrangement for appointing/electing regional reps, then it has to conform to those Bylaws for it to be valid; ditto the other states. Not having seen it or the other states’ Bylaws on the subject, I have no idea if that is true or not. However, in the absence of such language in the agreement, the Bylaws still apply (which is why the language is there–it’s logically impossible to predict for the future unknown).

  130. fred

    Joe,

    Thank you for focusing on what is important and attempting to re-direct the conversation back to getting our presidential candidate elected.

    There are many of us in Oregon who want to contribute to meaningful political actions and believe that contributing to the Johnson/Gray campaign would be a good way to help the party and the liberty movement. However we don’t want to waste our time on activities that will be rendered useless by the aggressive acts of factions within our party.

    Those who consider themselves loyal to one side of this factional dispute are an extremely small group while the vast majority of Libertarians in Oregon want a functional party that can focus on the positive aspects of our candidates and our ideology.

  131. Joe Buchman

    Thanks Fred @ 149.

    108 days to the election now. Every Libertarian should be asking — “What have I done to max the number of votes for Gary Johnson today?”

    Joe

  132. LibertarianGirl

    volunteering has been abysmal this campaign. Ecsp. with ballot access which isnt a damned gift to the GJ campaign its pretty much all we got. Bill Redpath is offerig to kiss ass to anyone who can rally volunteers to get the sigs.I pledge to work 20 hrs a month if Nevada loses staus and not to gloat over the fact I never lost it or whos responsible etc.

  133. Rob Banks

    Mark Axinn says they get 10,000 volunteer signatures every time in NY. Maybe he should teach a class on how to motivate volunteers if that’s true.

  134. JT

    Burke: “I’m not sure how any libertarian could be OK with what [Wagner] did. They’d never tolerate that from the LNC nor would they tolerate it in their state.”

    I agree with you on this point. Had this been done by a particular faction on the national level, a number of Libertarians here would’ve at least vociferously damned the offending party. The fact that they haven’t in this case–even if they counsel the LNC to not take any action–speaks volumes about how they seem to be offended depending on who the offenders are.

  135. Michael H. Wilson

    re JT @ 155 Let me explain to you a simple fact. Burke is not above doing something similar. He has pulled a lot of scams in the past to stay in control. But that just my opinion based on my experiences.

  136. Wes Wagner

    Shall the members of the Libertarian Party of Oregon ratify the Constitution and Bylaws adopted by the LPO State Committee on March 31, 2011?

    YES 725 (96.5%)

    NO 26 (3.5%)

  137. Wes Wagner

    What are the normal social consequences of attempting to enforce a governmental structure that almost nobody wants?

  138. Wes Wagner

    https://secure.sos.state.or.us/orestar/CFSearchPage.do

    In 2008 The LPO had 7 candidates if you count both Barr and Root

    In 2010 the LPO had 7 candidates. This was very shortly after the current officers returned to the party after a 2 year abscence.

    In 2012 the LPO already has 15 candidates in the system, 2 others for which we have paperwork. Still waiting on Johnson/Grays papers, and we have many more we are still waiting on papers for.

  139. Mohamed Jihad

    What are the normal social consequences of attempting to enforce a governmental structure that almost nobody wants?

    Beheading with a rusty scimitar!

  140. JT

    Wilson: “Let me explain to you a simple fact. Burke is not above doing something similar. He has pulled a lot of scams in the past to stay in control.”

    First, if Burke has ever changed the party bylaws outside of a convention in the past, please tell me when. Second, even if he had, which I don’t think is true, that doesn’t make it less wrong in this case.

    Can you even imagine the reaction if Mark Hinkle & his friends had done something like that & extended their terms unilaterally? Some people here would probably be calling for them to be waterboarded.

  141. Wes Wagner

    JT @161

    There actually a large number of changes in the 2009 Bylaws that he says are bona fide that are not reflected in the minutes of the 2009 convention.

    We have yet to work out all the particulars.

  142. JT

    Wagner: “There actually a large number of changes in the 2009 Bylaws that he says are bona fide that are not reflected in the minutes of the 2009 convention.”

    The only pertinent question in my view is whether there were any bylaws changes made outside of a noticed convention. If no, then no offense. If yes, then that’s messed up.

    I think the defense proffered by some that it had to be done because it was impossible to achieve a quorum otherwise is nonsense. Robert’s Rules is supposed to facilitate the orderly conduct of business, not to make the conduct of business impossible.

    If convention-goers have to keep coming back over and over again just to get party work done, then propose a lower percentage of people required to conduct party business & put it to a vote. That’s not an ideal situation, but it’s superior to repeatedly postponing the meeting or having officers make bylaws changes unilaterally, which I think is unconscionable.

    Of course, what the LNC should or shouldn’t do in this case is another issue. I’m just saying that it’s shocking how some Libertarians who are so quick to condemn members of the LNC in harsh terms when they perceive malfeasance can’t seem to muster up any personal indignation here (except, again, when it comes to actions of the LNC).

  143. Wes Wagner

    JT @163

    There are things in the 2009 bylaws, that were not in the 2007 bylaws that are also not in the minutes for the 2009 convention.

    I can’t make any accusations as to why or motivations.. it could just be one giant messup.

    Burke and M were heavily involved in it… perhaps they could offer some explanation.

  144. Michael H. Wilson

    There was another year prior to 2009 where the bylaws were not available until some 6 months after the convention as well as the minutes of the convention. Then I was surprised to see that one section was just the opposite as to how I recalled the vote happening.

    I could go on but it is not worth my time.

  145. Mohamed Jihad

    Allah Akhbar!

    “Obey Allah and Allah will reward you.”

    “If you are shameless, you would do as you wish.”

    “Follow up a bad deed with a good deed, to waive it out.”

    “Mix with people with a good attitude.”

    “Be content with what Allah has given you, and you will be among the richest of people.”

    “Love for other people what you love for yourself.”

    “Wrongdoing will be multiple darkness on the Day of Resurrection.”

    “Fear Allah and treat all your children fairly.”

    “Fear the prayer of the oppressed.”

    “Do not become angry, and you will be relieved.”

    “Among the most beloved of deeds to Allah is the one that is continuous, even if it is little.”

    “Among the most beloved of people to Allah are those who have the best attitudes.”

    “Control your tongue.”

    “Give back the things you have been entrusted with to the person who entrusted them to you.”

    “Do not betray the one who betrays you.”

    “Cheer people up, do not put them down.”

    “Make things easy for people, not difficult.”

    “If someone who is distinguished among his own people comes to you, then honor him.”

    “If you do something bad, follow it by doing something good.”

    “If you feel uncomfortable about something, then leave it alone.”

    “If you judge (between people), then judge fairly.”

    “If one gets angry, let him keep silent.”

    “If a man becomes angry and says ‘A^oodhu Billaah (I seek refuge with Allah),’ his anger will cease.”

    “When any one of you meets his brother, let him greet him with salaam.”

    “Show mercy towards those who are on earth so that the angels who are in heaven will bring mercy on you by the order of Allah.”

    “Feel properly shy and modest sincerely.”

    “Seek help in whatever you do by being discreet.”

    “Among the most grateful of people to Allah are those who are most grateful to other people.”

    The trouble with beauty is feelings of superiority.

    The trouble with generosity is extravagance.

    The trouble with noble descent is sinful pride.

    “Give to the one who denied you.”

    “Uphold ties with the one who cuts you off.”

    “Forgive the one who does you wrong.”

    May Allah have mercy on the person who said good and was rewarded or who remained silent and was safe.

    The one who is more daring in giving fatwas is more deserving of punishment in Hell.

    Love the poor and mix with them.

    It is better to err in forgiving than to err in punishment.

    Do not judge between people when you are angry.

    If you count the faults of others, count your own faults instead.

    If you commit a sin, say “Astaghfir-ullah (I ask Allah for forgiveness).”

    If you are given a blessing, say, “Al-Hamdu-Lillaah (praise be to Allah).”

    If some disaster befalls you, say, “Innaa Lillaahi wa innaa ilayhi raaji’oon (Truly, to Allah we belong and truly, to Him we shall return).”

    Seek rizq (provision) by giving charity

    “Pay the hired worker his wages before his sweat dries.”

    “Tie up (your camel) [i.e., take the necessary precautions], and put your trust in Allah.”

    “Make the most of your life before your death.”

    Make the most of “your health before your sickness.”

    Make the most of “your time before you become busy.”

    Make Among the most of “your wealth before you become poor.”

    Make Among the most of “your youth before you become old.”

    “The good sadaqah (charity) is that given by one who has little.”

    “The upper hand (the one that gives) is better than the lower hand (the one that takes).”

    “The good believer is one who is best in attitude.”

    “The good jihaad is the jihaad of the one who strives against his own self (jihaad al-nafs) for the sake of Allah.”

    “Most of the sins committed by the son of Adam are sins of the tongue.”

    “There is less goodness in the one who is not friendly or likeable.”

  146. Mohamed Jihad

    The world and all things in it are valuable; but the most valuable thing in the world is a virtuous woman.

    The best women are the virtuous; they are the most affectionate to infants, and the most careful of their husband’s property.

    When a woman performeth the five times of prayer, and fasteth the month of Ramadan, and is chaste, and is not disobedient to her husband, then tell her to enter Paradise by whichever door she liketh.

    Verily a great number of women are assembled near my family, complaining of their hubands; and those men who ill-treat their wives do not behave well. He is not of my way who teacheth a woman to stray.

    Asma, daughter of Yazid, said, “Victuals were brought to Muhammad, and he put them before some of us women who were present, and said, ‘Eat ye.’ But notwithstanding we were hungry we said, ‘We have no inclination.’ Muhammad said, ‘O woman! Do not mix hunger with lies.'”

    Whoever doeth good to girls, it will be a curtain to him from hell-fire.

    Whoever befriendeth two girls till they come of age, will be in the next world along with me, like my two fingers joining each other.

    Whoever befriendeth three daughters, or three sisters, and teacheth them manners, and is affectionate to them, till they come of age, may God apportion Paradise for him.

    Whoever hath a daughter, and doth not bury her alive or scold her, or prefer his male children to her, may God bring him into Paradise.

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