LP Convention; delegate fight underway?

SOL fight

Wes Wagner, Chair of the LP Oregon, reports multiple pre-Convention demands for documentation of his legitimacy, and that of the LP Oregon delegates, from the credentials committee, at least one member of the state chairs list and others.

Others have reported a desire to “settle this matter once and for all” by a vote of the Columbus convention delegates.

Mr. Wagner has responded that the convention delegates will, likely, have neither the time, nor the interest, in carefully reviewing the matter; that such debate in Columbus will be a waste of valuable time; that such efforts seem designed by forces opposed to the real liberty advancing work of the LP to destroy the party; and that the judicial committee is the appropriate venue for such detailed, prolonged review of disputes of this nature.

Further, Mr. Wagner, has pointed to what he has concluded is an organized attempt by non-libertarians to control, distract or destroy the party and that at least some such efforts have been funded by those with republican party connections, including Messrs. Starr and Burke (see, for example, this prior IPR coverage HERE).

In response to these demands/requests/and rumors of a potential delegate fight, Mr. Wagner has provided IPR with the following for pre-Convention public review:

“There are been some requests for documents regarding Oregon, all of which are of course publicly available.”

(Note: Linked below –ed.)

“Apparently there is and has been surreptitious lobbying occurring in order to attempt to convince people to convince their delegations to seat a group of delegates that are not the actual delegation from Oregon (again) and/or take other positions on the matter.

“This entire affair has of course been a long drawn out circus orchestrated by Aaron Starr and Richard Burke (Starr also has invested almost $100,000 into the circus).)

“The lawsuit was dismissed (see IPR coverage HERE)

“There is no stay of the dismissal while it is being appealed. Appeals can and often do take several years in Oregon. It is likely the appeal will still be ongoing waiting for an opinion through the next presidential election.

“The Oregon Secretary of State has on several occasions made an administrative ruling on this matter. (Libertarian Leadership 2011-3).

“Administrative rulings in Oregon are binding if not appealed within 90 days due to the administrative procedures act. As a result this ruling is, in our legal opinion, irreversible and has been for a number of years. When Reeves, Burke, Starr, et.al. sued us rather than the Oregon Secretary of State, they sued the wrong parties.

“Notwithstanding that, their case was dismissed on jurisdictional grounds. If the LNC wanted to reverse who the officers are in the State of Oregon, the LNC would meet the same roadblock.

“Of course that is not an issue, because, since before the convention in 2012 the LNC already recognizes the current officers of the Libertarian Party of Oregon.

(see LNCJudCom, and Libertarian 12 Certification Letter from Oregon SoS)

“Additionally, Geoff Neale has made some of his opinions on the matter public, HERE.

“If you want to know more about the lawsuit, read the transcripts, etc, it is all on my scribd account.

(Note: 52 documents posted there at present; court filings, depositions, motions, declarations, replies to motions, etc. Not recommended for those with limited time nor for those with an aversion to either legalese, judicial convolution or both – ed.)

“The long and short of it is that there are some very politically aggressive people who happen to always wind up being associated with the republican party in some way who seem to continue to commit acts of aggression against our more successful libertarian affiliates. I have my suspicions about people who continue pursuing invariably the same object and how it evinces a design … however I would ask that you reject their attempts to reopen an issue that should be long settled.

“The people of Oregon had an opportunity to weigh in on these issues long ago, see THIS.

“I am sure you can understand how difficult it is to get 96.5% of libertarians to agree on anything and how far beyond the pale the actions of the other side must have been in order for such a strong referendum to be posted against them.

“As it stands relations between the average Libertarian in Oregon and the national organization are extremely poor and there is much healing to be done. The entire affair was an artificial crisis created by the previous LNC leadership, Mr. Starr and Mr. Burke — most of which were kicked out of office in Las Vegas after the reality of their acts had time to be discussed.

“It does not do the party any good to attempt to reopen that fraudulent crisis and replay it. Whatever minutes of debate that might be invested in it on the convention floor will not provide ample time and consideration to get to the truths of the matter and allowing the circus to occur only permits additional acts of fraud.

“This issue was examined in more detail than it should have by the previous LNC leadership, the previous Judicial Committee (given that we are a sovereign entity) … which still ultimately ruled in our favor.

“Additionally the Circuit Court in Oregon did not see a compelling interest in taking the case to trial.

“We have more important things to invest our time on than trying to oppress Libertarians in Oregon for the sake of Mr. Starr’s personal political ambitions.”

60 thoughts on “LP Convention; delegate fight underway?

  1. George Phillies

    Readers Beware; something odd is happening with the details boxes with my name etc. They mysteriously attached me with the wrong name to a wordpress URL I do not recognize.

  2. Jill Pyeatt

    What can be done before the convention? What if Ohio LP really has paid for lapsed memberships, with the intention of people different from the name on the registration coming as delegates? Can that be proven and, more importantly, stopped? I notice Kevin didn’t answer Chuck Moulton’s very direct question about that last week.

  3. Steven Wilson

    I think a coffee table should be the acknowledged chair of the Oregon LP. After that, Sponge BOB could be the next in power. Then an actual chair could be the secretary and have an affair with the Treasurer who is Lindsay Lohan.

    Abe Vigoda could be an usher for the delegates. Abbot and Costello could Emcee the convention.

    Total win for everybody.

    Cheers

  4. paulie

    Fun stuff………..


    [Lsla] Intro to LSLA for new state chairs
    Inbox
    x
    TCLP

    Apr 27 (1 day ago)

    to Wes, lslA, LP-State
    LP state leaders,

    Tonight LSLA approved the conference schedule for Thursday June 26, which consists of the following two tracks:

    Candidate 10am-12:00 Carla Howell Who’s Driving
    Candidate 12:00 – 1pm LUNCH ON OWN
    Candidate 1pm – 3pm Evan McMahon Candidate Training
    Candidate 3pm – 5pm Harold Thomas Candidate Training
    Candidate 5pm – 6pm Sharon Harris Communications

    Internal 10am – 11:30 Paula Edwards FEC Compliance
    Internal 11:30am – 1:00pm LUNCH ON OWN
    Internal 1pm – 2pm Axinn, Redpath, Frankel Managing a Petition Drive
    Internal 2pm – 6pm Multi-State Team Divisional Structure of a State Party

    After we did so, a good point was raised by Leigh Lachine of Alabama; what is LSLA? For most of you that have attended our conferences you know the answer, but quite a few new state chairs have come on the scene, including in Texas.

    LSLA is an independent organization that has held an annual conference every year at least since 2004. Ironically that year it was held in Houston and that is the only one I missed. I have found it to be the best training opportunity for LP state (and local) leaders and candidates all year. In addition to the conference, there is also an annual business meeting that each LP state affiliate has one voting representative allotted. The business meeting establishes policy of the organization and decides where the next conference will be held.

    As chair of LSLA I will take it upon myself to contact new state chairs when I become aware of their election and introduce them to LSLA. This list does a pretty good job of announcing new state chairs, but I will also ask national staff to alert me to any such announcements. I hope to contact each new chair and hope to see you all in Columbus June 26.

    Patrick Dixon

    “Everyone is always poor. Life is an underpaid occupation”
    Milton Friedman

    _______________________________________________
    Lsla mailing list
    Lsla@hq.lp.org
    http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lsla_hq.lp.org
    Wes Wagner

    Apr 27 (1 day ago)

    to TCLP, lslA, LP-State
    Can you please stop sending LSLA email to the LPHQ run State Chairs List?

    The LSLA was given their own list because they were unwilling to recognize all state chairs due to political issues relates to Aaron Starr and his use of the organization for his own personal political ambitions.

    As a result, neither Oregon nor Georgia are members. I still believe any other state of good conscience should either leave the organization or replace the entirety of the leadership of the LSLA so that it can return to its original charter.

    If you want to actually recognize all LP State Chairs that might be a different story, but to be frank you are off-topic posting on the statechairs@lp.org list since it is not a list of people who the LSLA recognizes as members of its organization.

    Sincerely,
    Wes Wagner
    Chairperson, Libertarian Party of Oregon

    _______________________________________________
    Statechairs mailing list
    Statechairs@hq.lp.org
    http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/statechairs_hq.lp.org


    Wes Wagner

    _______________________________________________
    Statechairs mailing list
    Statechairs@hq.lp.org
    http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/statechairs_hq.lp.org
    travellingcircus@gmail.com

    Apr 27 (1 day ago)

    to Independent, iprtwo
    _______________________________________________
    Lsla mailing list
    Lsla@hq.lp.org
    http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lsla_hq.lp.org
    ken.moellman@lpky.org

    8:53 AM (12 hours ago)

    to Wes, LP-State
    In this case, I think it’s appropriate to offer free leadership and candidate training to this list. Anyone on this list, and for that matter, any Libertarian, can attend this training for free.

    LSLA and the LNC Convention Committee are working together in-part to provide this free training. LNC has provided the initial vendor space, and LSLA is providing vendors, training, etc.

    As far as the next leadership of the LSLA organization is concerned, that is up to the State Chairs to decide in Columbus. I suggest that all current State Chairs take an active role in the organization — including the election of its officers.

    There has also been talk of amending the Bylaws of LSLA. That’s slightly off-topic for this list, but again that would be a very good reason for State Chair to show up at the annual Business Meeting of LSLA in Columbus.

    Ken

    Sent from my BlackBerry.
    Wes Wagner

    9:03 AM (12 hours ago)

    to Ken, LP-State

    Ken

    Anyone on this list should be on the LSLA list .. except that Aaron Starr perverted the constitution of the organization you represent.

    Double posting and cross posting under those circumstances is considered extremely poor netiquette and is highly insulting to the people who were involuntarily removed from your organization in violation of your charter as well as people who voluntarily asked to be removed so they would no longer have to associate with you.

    While I understand Starr spent about 100k hiring a republican party lawyer as part of an overall plan of controlled opposition of the LP and its affiliates (and is extending his program to Ohio via slavery via debt) and you are playing the good lap dog for whatever he promised you…

    It is still inappropriate to cross post to the list that was created because the LSLA was unable to prevent the perversion of their own.

    Wes Wagner
    Chairperson, Libertarian Party of Oregon

    _______________________________________________
    Statechairs mailing list
    Statechairs@hq.lp.org
    http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/statechairs_hq.lp.org
    Joseph Buchman

    12:08 PM (9 hours ago)

    to Jill, Wes, me
    Since when did “majority rule” become consistent with the “Party of Principle.”

    The (apparent) current inability of Americans to understand “inalienable rights” is the guarantee of our enslavement.

    Sure the majority of the convention can vote on whatever the majority of the convention can vote on, especially about who they wish to affiliate with, but a) why should that impact a state-level organization and b) why not recognize the wisdom of prior conventions regarding the role of the judicial committee.

    Wes is correct, IMO. No need to bring documentation; no time for the delegates to review this tangled mess and make an **informed** decision.

    Doubtless the Starr faction will try again for an **uninformed** decision and “majority rule.”

    My reaction: why bother to go to this farce? Tell me again how it does more good than harm to the cause of advancing real liberty? IMO it is a controlled distraction; easy way for the State to collect all your names and addresses . . .

    (I’m certain I’m already on such a list; that this is being reviewed and evaluated for the prioritized list of who to imprison first.)

    🙂

    Joe
    Joe

    On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 9:58 AM, Wes Wagner wrote:

    On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 9:54 AM, Ken Moellman wrote:

    The “14 days” can be quickly solved with the previously-suggested presentation of documentation. That’s why I suggested that.

    I can only speak for LPKY’s delegation when I say they’re not bought by anyone. And my job isn’t to control the delegates from my state, nor would I try.

    I’m not leaving the party, I’m just not going to be in leadership anymore. I’ve been in leadership for 6 of the last 8 years. That’s long enough.

    As to your second follow-up email, you’re correct; I’m not on credentials, nor do I want to be. I’ll only be a single vote within the convention body.

    I’m only making a suggestion to you on how to definitively resolve this, based on what I’d do if I were in your situation. If the convention body acts to resolve this, then neither an incoming LNC, nor an incoming JC, can overturn it. The arguments to the contrary from within certain parts of the organization are resolved. It’s just done and over with. Finality.

    Do with my suggestion whatever you like. Take it. Don’t take it. Douse it with gasoline and set it on fire. It’s your choice.

    ken

    On 04/28/2014 12:34 PM, Wes Wagner wrote:
    > Ken,
    >
    > The convention body does not have the 14 days it would take to contemplate the issue … which is why there is such a high standard for overruling the judicial committee rather than creating political farces with paid delegations (and those that are in debt slavery to Aaron Starr) and predetermined outcomes.
    >
    > I was born at night, but I was not born last night.
    >
    > This path you are trying to take the LNC down while on your way out the door (and thus won’t have to live with the consequences) has a very dangerous end.
    >
    > Sincerely,
    > Wes Wagner
    > Chairperson, Libertarian Party of Oregon
    >
    >
    >
    > On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 9:29 AM, Ken Moellman wrote:
    >
    > Wes,
    >
    > I think you’re missing my point. There is no greater authority than the convention body. That’s how it gets resolved definitively. One motion. And that’s it. The end.
    >
    > ken
    >
    >
    > On 04/28/2014 12:21 PM, Wes Wagner wrote:
    >> Ken,
    >>
    >> The way for this to end decisively is for people like you to stop helping a republican aligned controlled opposition group create artificial crisis. Every official body of every organization that has any mote of authority on this matter has resolved this issue, but through creative interpretation you and your associates attempt to determine it unresolved.
    >>
    >> Even if I submitted to some rogue agency attempting to hold court on the matter, it would still be interpreted as unresolved because they would claim some other authority hasn’t ruled on the matter or that the quality of that ruling is unsatisfactory.
    >>
    >> It is tiring and pointless. Of the 12 people who attempted the coup on Oregon, 8 lost their offices and the balance had their credibility affected dramatically.
    >>
    >> Oregon has flourished in spite of having been the victim of an act of war by the previous LNC leadership.
    >>
    >> We are on the right side of the moral law (one of the 5 necessary strategic assets for victory in war – and the most important) and everyone who touches this issue seems to implode. (like the LSLA)
    >>
    >> Give it up. There was a populist revolt in Oregon against the statist faction of the LP. The statist faction lost. The people here voted 96%+ in favor of it. Continuing the conflict only threatens to burn down the entire LNC.
    >>
    >> Wes Wagner
    >> Chairperson, Libertarian Party of Oregon
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 9:13 AM, Ken Moellman
    wrote:
    >>
    >> Wes (et al) –
    >>
    >> The only person I work for is me, and who I choose to work for. I currently work for LPKY, as well, at great personal expense. I do not intend to take a leadership role again after my term expires with LSLA in June, nor do I plan to take any leadership roles with LPKY when my term expires in March. It’s time for me to back off and let other people lead for a while — for the good of my organization, and for the good of my family as well.
    >>
    >> I’m just trying to give you advice on how to decisively end this, once and for all. I’ve given you my advice, based on what I’d do if I were in your situation. You can obviously choose to do whatever you want.
    >>
    >> Ken
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> On 04/28/2014 11:59 AM, Wes Wagner wrote:
    >>> Ken,
    >>>
    >>> The credentials committee is not the place for these discussions.
    >>>
    >>> As far as court decisions, the LNC has all of those. They also have copies of the SoS decisions. For the entire tenure of the existing LNC and extending months before the stolen delegation in 2012 the LNC has as a matter of conduct recognized the actual legal Libertarian Party of Oregon. There is no settling this once and for all so long as agents like you continue to pretend the issue still exists. The reason the LPO is recognized is because all those processes have already occurred and are beyond your authority or scope to attend to. You are a subversive and are trying to over-reach with your authority … the act of people with statist trappings.
    >>>
    >>> Again though, the proper process for overruling a judicial committee decision exists. Use it, rather than trying to subvert the credentials committee again.
    >>>
    >>> Oh wait, the people you work with can only win by subterfuge because they are liars and thieves…
    >>>
    >>> -Wes Wagner
    >>>
    >>> Chairperson, Libertarian Party of Oregon
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 8:48 AM, Ken Moellman
    wrote:
    >>>
    >>> I understand the situation, and I understand your viewpoint. I don’t want to go over all the fine points of the whole mess again. There’s a really easy way to finish the debate.
    >>>
    >>> Bring court decisions. SoS decisions.
    >>>
    >>> The convention body can and should act to resolve this definitively, and should also adopt a bylaw to prevent it from ever happening again. Depending on how the credentials committee does their report, it can be objected to, amended, etc. The issue can be resolved. There is no greater authority in the party than the convention body. Resolving this on the convention floor will definitively end this issue.
    >>>
    >>> I honestly just want the issue resolved, and I have interest in avoiding it in the future — for Oregon or any other state. That’s why I’m encouraging you to take action to ensure definitive action by the convention body. End this debate, once and for all.
    >>>
    >>> ken
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> On 04/28/2014 11:36 AM, Wes Wagner wrote:
    >>>> Ken,
    >>>>
    >>>> Exactly what type of “documentation” are you expecting?
    >>>>
    >>>> And it is not “my word” … it is the word of the LNC Chair, the LNC Judicial Committee, The LNC website, etc. You are allowing a group of interlopers who are funded by a republican controlled opposition faction to lead you about by the bit and create an artificial crisis.
    >>>>
    >>>> It was started in 2010, and they lost. They continue to try to reopen it with new victims every chance they get. Creating this acrimony and artifical crisis is their purpose in order to create a disruption they can use to destroy the effectiveness of our organization. It is a classic strategy of controlled opposition groups and you are helping them.
    >>>>
    >>>> So please, explain again, on what basis of authority do you intend to subvert the national party processes and what documentation are you demanding? Are you demanding this documentation of all affiliates that are recognized by the LNC? Or is violation of 14th amendment-style principles of justice and equity (a fundamental basis of moral governance) also just part of what you do because you are so easily corrupted?
    >>>>
    >>>> Sincerely,
    >>>>
    >>>> Wes Wagner
    >>>> Chairperson, Libertarian Party of Oregon
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 8:31 AM,
    wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>> Wes,
    >>>>
    >>>> I really believe that it’s easily solved with the proper documentation. That’s all I’m suggesting. Otherwise it’s just your word against someone else.
    >>>>
    >>>> Honestly I don’t give a flip about National. I’m only worried about LPKY.
    >>>>
    >>>> Ken
    >>>> Sent from my BlackBerry.
    >>>> From: Wes Wagner
    >>>> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 08:09:02 -0700
    >>>> To: Ken Moellman
    >>>> Subject: Re: [Statechairs] Intro to LSLA for new state chairs
    >>>>
    >>>> Ken,
    >>>>
    >>>> Oregon is a sovereign entity – our sovereignty is guaranteed under the national LP bylaws. Additionally the credentials committee is bound by the judicial committee’s rulings on these matters. I am not coming with the documentation you expect and I will not allow the credentials committee to hold court.
    >>>>
    >>>> You are a stooge, whether you wise enough to know it or not. You are also dangerously close to your actions creating a civil war in the LP that will split the party into two organizations.
    >>>>
    >>>> -Wes
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 8:05 AM,
    wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>> Just so you know, I also share your concerns on the cross-posting. Steps are being taken that will sort that all out. In this one instance I actually think it was okay — certainly OR and GA Libertarians can still partake in the LSLA training.
    >>>>
    >>>> And, for the record, I’m no one’s lap dog. 🙂 I want your situation resolved definitively at this convention, from the National perspective. That’s why I encouraged you to come with documentation.
    >>>>
    >>>> I don’t think you’ll get satisfaction on the demand to drum anyone out of the party, but I do think there’s an opportunity for everything to get straightened out.
    >>>>
    >>>> Ken
    >>>> Sent from my BlackBerry.
    >>>> From: Wes Wagner
    >>>> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 07:03:12 -0700
    >>>> To: Ken Moellman
    >>>> Cc: LP-State Chairs

  5. Joseph Buchman Post author

    “AWAKE! for Morning in the Bowl of Night
    Has flung the Stone that sets the Stars to Flight:
    And Lo! the Hunter of the East has caught
    The Sultan’s Turret in a Noose of Light.”

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/khayyam.txt

    I’m calling my latest work, “The torch of Lady Liberty sets the out-of-state Oregon Stars to flight.”

  6. paulie

    Readers Beware; something odd is happening with the details boxes with my name etc. They mysteriously attached me with the wrong name to a wordpress URL I do not recognize.

    First I have heard of this.

  7. Wes Wagner

    What is amazing is that people still think that the LNC can settle who the leadership of the Libertarian Party of Oregon is and what rules operate here. The lawyers in the party, the Oregon Secretary of State and countless others have continually reminded us that the LNC has no authority inside the borders of Oregon on such matters.

  8. Joseph Buchman Post author

    “Ah Love! could thou and I with Fate conspire
    To grasp this sorry Scheme of Things entire,
    Would not we shatter it to bits — and then
    Re-mould it nearer to the Heart’s Desire?”

  9. Wes Wagner

    Steve L. gave me a heads up that this was a growing concern, I have also had correspondence with Emily Salvette.

    Steve did not out the individuals who were creating the issues, but I have 3 wild guesses who they are and I would probably be right on all accounts.

  10. Wes Wagner

    Unfortunately that video his too close to home Paulie… I could barely hear it over the ukulele music in the background. I had to turn the volume up on my computer to get past the background noise.

  11. LP Observer

    Ohio situation is their business. The bylaws of Ohio clearly state that to be a delegate one must have voted in the Ohio LP Primary to be a state member AND to be a basic pledge signing member to be a national member. Neither requires any money to buy a membership. Just vote in the LP Ohio Primary and sign the pledge. If you want to be a sustaining member that is a seperate decision. The Ohio conventions are open to public and the business part of meeting is FREE to those that are members of the state LP–via voting in the LP Primary in Ohio. Only the Ohio LP members can vote in the meetings. Again, they don’t charge membership fees like a lot of other states. Poltical Party membership is defined in the Ohio Revised Code and it does not call for any monetary transaction. Bylaws are on their site in the Central COmmittee page.

  12. LP Watcher

    Jill, just becasue you are a sustaining membership does NOT guarantee you a seat in a dlegation. You would still have to request a seat with the state chair. Most states have far far more sustaining members (paid $25 or more to national) than they do delegates for their team to the national convention. Just because a state moves up or down in sustaning membership does not mean those same people have a seat in the delegation. Seperate issues. Sustaining mebmership is national related. The decision to be a state delegate is a matter between the qualified indivual and the state party.

  13. Kevin Knedler

    I will go on record that I am AGAINST floor fees to vote in a LP Ohio meeting or a National LP meeting, but would at very minimum require the participant to be a basic member of the national and a member of the state party–Ohio is to vote in the Ohio LP Primary. There are lots of people that can help the movement that may not have much spare money.

  14. Wes Wagner

    LP Observer

    The contention in Ohio is that they may have engaged in fraud to increase their delegate count, which means they have discernible external victims (states who lost delegate counts or would have otherwise gained delegate counts). It would otherwise be an internal issue and a quasi non-issue. Of course one should always concern themselves when someone is engaging in debt-slavery against people you consider you allies (because it means you might now have treacherous/unstable allies) … that is a military/strategic decision. Especially if that person is a known malefactor.

  15. paulie

    Ohio situation is their business. The bylaws of Ohio clearly state that to be a delegate one must have voted in the Ohio LP Primary to be a state member AND to be a basic pledge signing member to be a national member. Neither requires any money to buy a membership. Just vote in the LP Ohio Primary and sign the pledge. If you want to be a sustaining member that is a seperate decision. The Ohio conventions are open to public and the business part of meeting is FREE to those that are members of the state LP–via voting in the LP Primary in Ohio. Only the Ohio LP members can vote in the meetings. Again, they don’t charge membership fees like a lot of other states.

    As a practical matter, how does one sign the pledge to become a national member without paying for a dues paying membership? I know that a way exists, only because it has been discussed on the LNC list, but I don’t remember what that way is. I think maybe it is a page which is not linked from anywhere on the site. It is certainly not anything which can be deduced from following the available internal or external links at LP.org; I’ve tried and have received complaints from others who presumed such a way does not exist. Apparently you have to presume it exists, without evidence, and take the initiative on your own to contact LPHQ and ask them how to do that.

    Also, it is my understanding that the actual size of the state delegation is calculated on dues paying memberships, not pledge signing memberships, correct? So if more Ohio delegates want to sit with their state rather than wander state to state to find a delegation that will seat them (or not go, presuming that none would, if their delegation was full) they had to increase the size of their delegation by increasing their dues paying national membership. Which they did. Allegedly with a large loan from Aaron Starr. Which, BTW, I do not oppose. I am more disappointed that the other side did not do anything similar (along with organized ride/roomshare and other cost-sharing to help people attend the convention). I know that there are some people on “both” so-called sides that have money they can and do spend on that kind of stuff. Phillies, Moulton (those thousands of color copies he distributes at national conventions must add up), some Oregonians, Sparkman if he is still in the picture (can’t get a hold of him), and others demonstratedly have money that they are ready, willing and able to spend on intra-LP political matters. So if Starr has once again outplayed us, and for now it seems that he has (we’ll see if there are any secret plans I am not privy to from the other end), it will be 100% our fault. Just as it was Starr/Root/Rutherford’s fault, if anyone’s, to the degree that they got outplayed in Vegas.

    There are lots of people that can help the movement that may not have much spare money.

    “Your money or your time”; time is money too. If you have neither, thanks for the moral support, and we’ll take whatever little you can spare, but we need people with one, the other or both they are willing and able to give us. Personally I have more time than money and would appreciate any money I can get to get more done, but I have at least some money as well as at least some time and when I don’t, oh well, someone else will either have to step up or not. One day maybe I’ll get a life outside politics again. Maybe.

  16. paulie

    The contention in Ohio is that they may have engaged in fraud to increase their delegate count,

    How is it fraud? I know of no rule that prevents exactly what Starr is alleged to have arranged with Ohio.

  17. Wes Wagner

    Paulie

    There are allegations that memberships may have been renewed without the consent or authorization of the person who was renewed. (that is how the pledge signature was bypassed)

  18. Nicholas Sarwark

    The problem with Mr. Moellman’s premise is the misconception that who the convention chooses to seat as delegates resolves anything outside the convention itself. The identity of the Oregon affiliate of the Libertarian National Committee has already been resolved. The identity of the ballot-qualified Libertarian party within the state of Oregon has already been resolved. Both are the Wagner group.

    If the convention delegates choose to not allow the delegates put forth by the Oregon affiliate of the Libertarian National Committee to be seated in favor of another group of people, they can’t be overruled on that point. However, that action will not change who the LNC has recognized as the affiliate or who the state of Oregon has recognized as the Libertarian party within the state. All it will do is add drama to a national convention that doesn’t need any drama, and further damage the relationship between the national Libertarian Party and its Oregon affiliate.

    The backers of the Reeves group that I know all seem to be intelligent people. I’m sure they are familiar with the concept of a Pyrrhic victory. If they continue to seek to win such battles without a clear objective that advances Libertarian politics, their supporters and fellow travelers should withdraw their support.

    Politics is messy and often makes for strange bedfellows, but when you see people fighting without a clear goal, they’re no longer engaging in politics, just shenanigans.

    No more shenanigans in 2014.

  19. paulie

    There are allegations that memberships may have been renewed without the consent or authorization of the person who was renewed. (that is how the pledge signature was bypassed)

    Had not heard that til now.

  20. George Phillies

    For the benefit of readers, note that if Massachusetts spent $15,000 to renew the memberships of our lapsed members, our National Party sustaining membership would go up by 600, and correspondingly the number of delegate seats we would have would be bloated. If we did this by using money from our non Federal account, which we did not, the LNC would have received substantial illegal donations.

  21. Matt Cholko

    I can’t see how funding a membership drive is fraudulent, immoral, or otherwise bad. It may well result in a few more votes for Ohio Libertarians at the convention, and those votes may go in a direction that some of us wish they wouldn’t. But, that doesn’t make the membership drive bad.

    I know, its allegedly Starr and Knedler. But, you’re really going to fault them for membership growth? I certainly am not.

  22. Wes Wagner

    Matt

    The issue is that memberships may have been renewed of people without their consent… and as Phillies pointed out, state funds illegally converted to federal funds.

    On the political side of things, do you really want to support/associate with people who will give loans to affiliates for leverage against them rather than gifts? This is something that if we do not dole out political consequences for it will undermine our organization and its ability to drive consensus and unity. These issues are relevant if you want a functional society and have to be dealt with through informal social pressure. (You can’t make rules about moral conduct .. it has to be enforced via other means)

  23. Wes Wagner

    Nick,

    I am sure that their republican-aligned lawyer has assured them that somehow if the convention were to make some statement about how magnificent and legitimate they are, that he will be able to continue to bill them for another 4-5 years before eventual defeat (he may have left the last part out).

  24. Joe

    Sadly this reminds me of the Boy Scouts in the 1990s. Lots of BSA “professionals” paying the individual national dues of lots of “vapor Scouts” in “vapor troops” to increase their apparent numbers, gain bonuses for their effectiveness, and defraud United Way and other donors.

    Point is, like the BSA, none of that was so much “illegal” as it was damaging to the level of the enthusiasm of the volunteers who were working for a program that they thought/felt made a real difference.

    While this Ohio/Oregon/Delegate/Delagation BS is likewise legal/moral/whatever, how does it cause any advance in Liberty? Is the LP even capable of that given the corrupt nature of its management? or given the milquetoast quality of its demands for change? or given the fact that its past decade or so is full of former republican (now current republican) candidates — a presidential ticket from 2008 that endorsed . . . Gingrich and Romney? REALLY?!?!

    What happens when the brand becomes: “what a waste of time” or “what a corrupt organization” — same as BSA, I (at least for one) find my enthusiasm diminishing and my willingness to volunteer, vaporizing.

    Just like those vapor Scouts, or vapor Ohio members.

    Poof.

    What I could support (for what that is worth) is an organization that LOUDLY and consistently speaks truth to power.

    Something like, “Give me Liberty or Give me Death you evil fucking tyrants!”

    Anything less than that is just playing games, or so it seems to me.

    The Soviet Union WAS an “Evil Empire.” Being honest about that did some good; being polite did nothing. The USA is far closer to being an identical Evil Empire, but we seem too timid to speak that truth aloud, even, or especially, in the LP.

  25. paulie

    For the benefit of readers, note that if Massachusetts spent $15,000 to renew the memberships of our lapsed members, our National Party sustaining membership would go up by 600, and correspondingly the number of delegate seats we would have would be bloated. If we did this by using money from our non Federal account, which we did not, the LNC would have received substantial illegal donations.

    I’m not as up on the FEC rules as you are so I would have to take your word on that. Aside from this, the issue would be getting the people there if you did get more delegate slots for your state or some states. Easier to do when they are people from the state where the convention is being held or at least nearby.

  26. Steven Wilson

    I think if someone could sell a script for a new show, “almost liberty” or something like that, the writer could use the Oregon ordeal as source material. It could be creative nonfiction; like the perfect storm. Change a few names and change a few court battles around. Bingo. Blockbuster. Its funny, never ending, and has that American feel to it.

  27. paulie

    On August 1, 2013, the reality television series Hatfields & McCoys: White Lightning premiered on the History. The series begins with an investor offering to set up the feuding families into business making moonshine, and follows the families’ attempt to run the business together.[48]

  28. Chuck Moulton

    Chuck Moulton wrote (4/21/2014):
    http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2014/04/aaron-starr-revealed-to-be-primary-source-of-funding-for-oregon-lps-lawsuit/#comment-877792

    George Phillies wrote:

    To his credit, Mr Starr has shared the wealth with other states, too. How do you think Ohio reactivated all its national members?

    I see a $10,000 loan from Aaron Starr to the Libertarian Party of Ohio in the 2013 Post-General Report. I don’t know the circumstances of that loan or whether it was what is referred to above. November 2013 was the time period when the LP of Ohio’s membership jumped by 50% (729 to 1065).

    http://www2.sos.state.oh.us/pls/cfqry/f?p=119:48:109158864462260::NO:RP:P48_REPORT_ID,P48_TYPE,P48_LISTTYPE:142944445,31C,can

    Jill Pyeatt wrote (4/28/2014):
    http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2014/04/lp-convention-delegate-fight-underway/#comment-878279

    What can be done before the convention? What if Ohio LP really has paid for lapsed memberships, with the intention of people different from the name on the registration coming as delegates? Can that be proven and, more importantly, stopped? I notice Kevin didn’t answer Chuck Moulton’s very direct question about that last week.

    Kevin Knedler wrote (4/29/2014):
    http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2014/04/lp-convention-delegate-fight-underway/#comment-878323

    I will go on record that I am AGAINST floor fees to vote in a LP Ohio meeting or a National LP meeting, but would at very minimum require the participant to be a basic member of the national and a member of the state party–Ohio is to vote in the Ohio LP Primary. There are lots of people that can help the movement that may not have much spare money.

    I leave the meaning of this non-response as an exercise for the reader.

  29. LP Observer

    One can be a basic member by simply signing the national pledge. All it takes is an email with address, contact information, and mention you agree with the pledge. Or create a document and send to Robert Kraus at national office. That is the workaround to the national online site which seems to require a minimum donation. Lots of people have done this. That at least gets them on the data base for future prospecting. Plus, some states require a person sign the national pledge, but not donate to the national. That is the way it is done.

  30. LP Watcher

    And Florida best look at doing something in 2015 or they may not have enough seats in their delegation for the 2016 National Convention. Awkward it would be in turning people away from their own state delegation.
    Face it, Ohio got creative so they wouldn’t have to turn people away. Paulie has it figured out above. Not sure Ohio really cares about “which side” it is on. Looks to be a matter of caring about their fellow Ohio citizens and allowing them to sit with their family.

  31. Very interesting

    Looks like Ohio picked up 24 seats since the 2010 National Convention in St. Louis. Would 24 seats mean that every other state lost 1/2 of a seat or would some be the same and others lose 1 seat. The states that would seem to have the biggest grievance are those that lost a seat, max out their delegation, and turn away 1 person. Not likely for many states, except those close to Midwest. There is also the matter of vote results for POTUS in 2012, which affect the size of the delegation. It’s not just the sustaining members. Time to move on.

  32. paulie

    On August 1, 2013, the reality television series Hatfields & McCoys: White Lightning premiered on the History. The series begins with an investor offering to set up the feuding families into business making moonshine, and follows the families’ attempt to run the business together.[48]

    Maybe this could be a viable plan for Oregon LP factions, LOL

  33. LP Watcher

    Fall of 2013 is when Ohio came under attack from the GOP in Ohio with ballot access laws, multiple court battles, attorneys, and then had to spend money to petition for statewide offices. All of that happened between September and January. Would be interesting to see how much money they have left after all of that. They have taken some hard punches in the gut from the established parties. And they are still standing.

  34. Wes Wagner

    Matt

    Knedler had an opportunity to deny the allegations of involuntary renewal and make this entire issue go away instantly (aside from the political ramifications of being associated with Starr and the way he uses money to lord control over people). I suspect now there will be much research done to gather the evidence by interested parties.

  35. Bob Tiernan

    Wes Wagner: “What is amazing is that people still think that the LNC can settle who the leadership of the Libertarian Party of Oregon is and what rules operate here. The lawyers in the party, the Oregon Secretary of State and countless others have continually reminded us that the LNC has no authority inside the borders of Oregon on such matters.”

    .
    Yup. That mentality is the same one that thought years ago it was okay for the European Union to decide whether or not Dutch citizens should be banned from wearing wooden shoes, fo alleged “safety” reasons. Fortunately that effort was stopped.

    .
    Bob T

  36. paulie

    Renewing memberships for unknowing people is unacceptable, of course.

    They would have continued to be members anyway unless they revoked the pledge. Even if they got another year of dues paid in their name…did any of them ask for a refund? Is getting another few issues of LP News at no charge a big imposition? Maybe some of them would not have renewed for reasons of no longer wanting to be associated with the LP – in which case they could ask for a refund, even though they were not the ones who paid, and/or revoke the pledge. In most cases, it was much more likely to have been that they are financially strapped or just had not gotten around to it or some combination thereof. If I was not a life member I may have let my membership lapse at some point; I think I would have considered it a favor if someone else paid it then.

  37. LP Watcher

    I was at a surprise birthday party for somebody. This person got all kinds of gifts he was not expecting. He wasn’t too thrilled with the surprise party and all the people, but he like all the gifts. Maybe gifting shouldn’t be allowed anywhere. Let’s pass a new law for goodness sakes!

  38. Wes Wagner

    Good to know that for $1,000,000 you can buy the presidential nomination just by purchasing 40,000 new members and shrinking the delegations of all other states to the point where the other 49 can’t outvote you even if only a fraction of your own slots are filled.

    This might be a good way to prevent a republican from ever getting nominated again.

  39. Chuck Moulton

    Wes Wagner wrote:

    Good to know that for $1,000,000 you can buy the presidential nomination just by purchasing 40,000 new members and shrinking the delegations of all other states to the point where the other 49 can’t outvote you even if only a fraction of your own slots are filled.

    Exactly.

  40. Jill Pyeatt

    So, Paulie, is it all right, then, if someone else uses my membership and goes to the convention as a delegate instead of me, and votes for people I don’t choose? Am I understanding the game right? Or, have the memeberships been paid solely to get more delegate spots open?

  41. Wes Wagner

    Chuck/Nick,

    I think it is time for a bylaw change – each state gets a number of delegates = to their EV totals, all territories get 3. Delegates must be legal residents of the states/territories they represent.

  42. George Phillies

    Jill: You are made a member, creating hypothetically an extra delegate seat. I go to the convention as that extra delegate…but there is no reason for me not to go as me. (Also, if I went as you, someone might for some reason become suspicious.) Adding members creates slots. Someplace else, bodies are found to fill the slots, but they can be different bodies.

  43. Bruce Alexander Knight

    Joseph Buchman wrote, “Sure the majority of the convention can vote on whatever the majority of the convention can vote on, especially about who they wish to affiliate with, but a) why should that impact a state-level organization and b) why not recognize the wisdom of prior conventions regarding the role of the judicial committee.”

    If I may respond:

    (a) I can only speculate on the motives of Starr, Burke, and their followers, but calling for a credentials vote is consistent with their years-long efforts to undermine the LP of Oregon as recognized by the state, the LNC, and an overwhelming majority of Oregon Libertarians. They may hope that taking the Oregon delegation’s seats for their rump faction will somehow aid their attempt to get the circuit court’s ruling against them overturned; and considering how weak their legal case is, they do need all the help they can get.
    But other than protracting the legal battle, stealing those seats will have no affect on the legitimate LPO’s home operations. It might succeed in turning more Oregon Libertarians against the national party, which was founded after ours and has absolutely no authority over us. If delegates to the national convention want to provoke the real Oregon party to repudiate the LNC, denying us representation (again, as in 2012) might accomplish that.

    (b) The national convention should indeed abide by the LNC judicial committee’s rulings that the state-recognized LPO is the legitimate LNC affiliate. Overturning those rulings would require a super-majority vote of convention delegates, though, so don’t expect Starr and Burke to take that approach. Ignoring the bylaws and trying for a simple majority vote to seat their own delegates (again, as in 2012) would be far more expedient, so that is what I expect them to do.

    In short, this is more of the same from the usual suspects, pursuing their own ends without regard to what’s good for the Libertarian Party. The LNC, the state of Oregon, and Oregon Libertarians have all rejected their claims to legitimacy, and now Starr and Burke want to reopen the same can of worms (again, as in 2012).

    What can our party possibly gain from that? Seriously, if you think there is ANY benefit in that course, I’d really like to know what it could be.

  44. LP Watcher

    Jill is mixing two separate things. Just because you are a national sustaining member and also that of a state, doesn’t mean you can be a delegate to the national convention. You have to get your ars off the couch and tell the state party you want to be a delegate. If a state has hundreds or more National members, they still have to request a seat in the delegation. It is not automatic.

  45. paulie

    So, Paulie, is it all right, then, if someone else uses my membership and goes to the convention as a delegate einstead of me, and votes for people I don’t chosse? Am I understanding the game right? Or, have the memeberships been paid solely to get more delehgate spots open?

    The latter.

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