Libertarians to US Lawmakers: Get Out, Stay Out of Iraq, Syria

From a Libertarian National Committee Press Release:

The Libertarian Party urges lawmakers to stop bombing in Iraq and to disengage operations in both Iraq and Syria.

“The U.S. government has been intervening in the Middle East for more than half a century under the pretext of achieving peace,” said Nicholas Sarwark, chair of the Libertarian National Committee. “But things just keep getting worse. We must stop stoking conflicts that tear countries apart, stop dropping bombs, and stay out of the region.”

The release, available at the LP’s web site, also notes that more than 30 Libertarians running for federal office in the November election have pledged, if elected, to support cutting US military spending by at least 60%.

80 thoughts on “Libertarians to US Lawmakers: Get Out, Stay Out of Iraq, Syria

  1. OrlandoChris

    Vote Adrian Wyllie for Governor! Also, Bill Wohlsifer for Attorney General and yes on 2.
    Why vote between 2 known liars? Florida, we are fortunate enough not to
    be stuck picking one liar or the other this time. We actually have an
    alternative. Take advantage of the opportunity. Adrian Wyllie deserves
    my vote. The other candidates both Republican and Democrat are owned
    and controlled by special interest, like puppets and will lie to your
    face to gain your vote, then continue the same old agenda that we
    complain about year after year. Time to get off this merry-go-round,
    election after election, thinking it will be any different. Take a
    stand Florida and stop voting for these ‘paid for’ career politicians that are
    only out for money and fame and have zero interest in us Floridians.
    Even if it’s just for honesty alone, vote for Adrian Wyllie instead of
    the other two (Scott/Crist) which are proven liars. The choice is yours
    and yours alone, if you want the same old corruption and slap in the
    face, go ahead and vote for one of the two puppets (Scott/Crist) OR do
    what is right for our (yours and your children’s) future and vote for
    Adrian Wyllie. Support him by donating to his campaign, spreading the
    word and contribute to the super brochure program which I think is very
    powerful. Visit his website today

  2. Jill Pyeatt

    Orlando Chris, what does this repeated comment have to do with Adrian Wyllie? We give him lots of coverage here, but can’t we talk about others, too?

  3. Thomas L. Knapp

    OrlandoChris,

    Any way I could talk you out of copying and pasting the same Wyllie appeal into every article on IPR?

    This is an article about a federal issue and federal candidates. Wyllie is running for 1) governor of 2) Florida. You’re off-topic.

  4. Thomas L. Knapp

    Nick,

    In that case, OrlandoChris might want to be on-topic by addressing Wyllie’s position on that issue.

    Copying and pasting the same repetitive comment into every thread on IPR, whether it’s on-topic for that thread or not, doesn’t help Wyllie.

  5. paulie

    I don’t know if OC actually reads the comments here or just posts them, but I think that it’s gone into spam territory at this point and should be treated as such. There are plenty of articles about Wyllie and will be more, but even then, posting the same thing a hundred times doesn’t really constitute contributing to the discussion.

  6. Joe Wendt

    A Wyllie-bot spamming the internet with propaganda… how unsurprised I am.

    Also, his statement Sarwak quotes is factually inaccurate. We have not been continuously involved in combat operations in Iraq for 24 year.

  7. paulie

    If you count bombing, sanctions which killed a million Iraqis (“worth it” according to Madeleine Albright) and military aid to combatants, the US government has been involved in combat operations in Iraq for 24 years.

  8. Thomas L. Knapp

    “We have not been continuously involved in combat operations in Iraq for 24 year.”

    Depends on how you define “combat operations.” I’d be surprised if there’s been a six-month stretch during which no US troops have been involved in combat operations in Iraq (including aerial bombardment, cruise missile attacks, etc.) since January of 1990.

  9. paulie

    “We have not been continuously involved in combat operations in Iraq for 24 year.”

    Depends on how you define “combat operations.”

    Also, on how you define “we.”

    🙂

  10. Joe Wendt

    Even if one were generous, the total number of years we have engaged in combat operations with Iraq is still under 20, that’s including the cruise missile attack in 1993 and the 4 day bombing in 1998.

    That being said, the tactic of people, like OrlandoChris, mindlessly posting meaningless and off topic blurbs praising their dear leader turns alot of people off supporting a candidate and gives a cult-like impression of the campaign.

  11. Thomas L. Knapp

    “Even if one were generous, the total number of years we have engaged in combat operations with Iraq is still under 20, that’s including the cruise missile attack in 1993 and the 4 day bombing in 1998.”

    Yeah, because the, you know, WAR in 1991 wasn’t a “combat operation” or anything.

  12. Joe Wendt

    I believe the years without combat operations (bombings, ground troops, etc) are 1992, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, and 2001.

  13. Steve M

    the US was involved in imposing a now fly zone on Iraq from the 1990 till the 2nd gulf war. I would consider enforcing a no fly zone to be combat operations and that the only time a combat operation didn’t take place is when the opposing forces weren’t challenging the no fly zone. I would also bet during the entire time the US was using military aircraft to fly daily through Iraq air space that we didn’t have to shoot doesn’t mean we weren’t prepared, willing and looking to shoot.

  14. paulie

    The sanctions and bombing were going on that whole time, too. They killed about a million people, haf of them children, and I would call that a combat operation. See the links I posted in the middle of the night.

  15. Joe Wendt

    Seeing as Iraq respected the no-fly zones (did not challenge them) until 1998 (with only a friendly fire incident 1994), you can not argue that that was a combat operation. In addition, sanctions could never be considered a combat operation since they are diplomatic & economic instruments of terror. None of those are combat operations, which makes the Wyllie statement very inaccurate. If he had said meddling militarily and diplomatically for 24 years, I can see your point. However, he called all of that a combat operation, which is factually wrong.

  16. Thomas L. Knapp

    “Seeing as Iraq respected the no-fly zones (did not challenge them) until 1998 (with only a friendly fire incident 1994), you can not argue that that was a combat operation.”

    Well, I can argue anything I damn well please, thank you very much.

    The US and the UK ran patrols in the no-fly zones throughout the period you mention., Those patrols were combat operations. Period.

  17. Steve M

    Well the US Military might disagree with you about whether Operation Southern Watch was a military operation or not.

    http://www.afhso.af.mil/topics/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=19816

    In April 1991, shortly after the United States and its coalition allies expelled Iraqi military forces from Kuwait in Operation Desert Storm, the United States established a no-fly zone over northern Iraq. This was followed shortly by the establishment of a similar zone over southern Iraq to enforce United Nations Security Council Resolution 688. That resolution directed the protection of Shiite Muslims from attack by military forces under the control of Saddam Hussein, Iraq’s Sunni Muslim dictator, and a number of other sanctions. To support the resolution and to protect the Shiites, the southern no-fly zone covered all of southern Iraq from the 32-degree latitude line south to the borders of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. The no-fly zone applied to both fixed and rotary wing aircraft, but in October 1991, the southern no-fly zone also became a “no-drive” zone and U.S. Central Command’s Joint Task Force-Southwest Asia (JTF-SWA) was charged with its enforcement. Generally, most Southern Watch missions consisted of fighter sweeps and patrols, the suppression of enemy aerial defenses, aerial reconnaissance, and airborne command and control using E-3 Airborne Warning and Control System aircraft.

    By 1997, Southern Watch crews had flown more than 86,000 sorties within the southern no-fly zone. To provide the continuous flow of personnel and resources required to sustain the operation over several years, the U.S. Air Force developed the Air Expeditionary Force (AEF) concept, and the first AEF deployment occurred on October 28, 1995. Typically, AEF rotations consisted of squadrons and individual specialists who served 90-day rotations at the major Southern Watch bases in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Bahrain. On average, 5,000 U.S. Airmen supported Operation Southern Watch on each rotation, but during periods of crisis as many as 15,000 USAF personnel supported the operation.

    When Saddam Hussein and his forces challenged the southern no-fly zone, JTF-SWA responded quickly. The first provocation occurred on December 27, 1992, when two MiG-25 aircraft threatened USAF aircraft in the no-fly zone. In response, USAF F-16s shot down one of the Iraqi fighter jets. Less than one month later, in January 1993, USAF aircraft struck missile sites in the no-fly zone. Other attacks against Iraqi targets followed in April, June, and July of that year. In October 1994, Iraqi forces massed on the Kuwaiti border, which resulted in Operation Vigilant Warrior, a massive influx of nearly 25,000 U.S. military personnel. This was followed by a smaller temporary reinforcement, Operation Vigilant Sentinel, to deter Iraqi aggression after several leaders of Hussein’s regime and their families defected to Jordan.

    As Operation Southern Watch continued, disaster struck the airmen serving in Southwest Asia. On June 25, 1996, terrorists bombed the Khobar Towers barracks on Dhahran Airbase in Saudi Arabia, killing 19 airmen and wounding 547 personnel. In response to the attack, the USAF reviewed its entire force protection and security police programs and established USAF Security Forces, who trained across all aspects of force protection, air base defense, and anti-terrorism measures. Undeterred by the terrorist attack, the USAF continued to support Operation Southern Watch through the 1990s and early 2000s and coalition aircraft participated in Operations Desert Strike and Desert Fox, which targeted missile and weapons of mass destruction production sites in Iraq. Operation Southern Watch continued until March of 2003, when the United States began Operation Iraqi Freedom with the aim of removing Saddam Hussein from power.

    Capt Gregory Ball, USAFR, Ph.D.

  18. George Whitfield

    I like Adrian Wyllie and will be voting for him for Governor and Bill Wohlsifer for Attorney General. We need more American candidates for Governor speaking out about a need to return to peace.

  19. paulie

    Seeing as Iraq respected the no-fly zones (did not challenge them) until 1998

    Under duress.

    In addition, sanctions could never be considered a combat operation since they are diplomatic & economic instruments of terror.

    Sanctions + no fly zone = siege, a military tactic.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege

    The most important siege was the Siege of Leningrad, that lasted over 29 months, about half of the duration of the entire Second World War. The siege of Leningrad resulted in the deaths of some one million of the city’s inhabitants.[28] Along with the Battle of Stalingrad, the Siege of Leningrad on the Eastern Front was the deadliest siege of a city in history.

    I don’t think anyone would say the Siege of Leningrad was not a combat operation. The sanctions, bombing and no-fly zone in Iraq in the 1990s killed just as many people as the siege of Leningrad.

  20. Michael H. Wilson

    Let me help Mr. Wyllie out here.

    “As the future governor of the State of Florida I expect the state will have to deal with many of the issues that being deployed overseas will have on our local military families. These many issues are ignored by the policy makers in Washington D.C. and range from minor depression, alcoholism. drug abuse, suicide and loss of a family member. Unfortunately those families caught in this trap will suffer long time injuries; both physically and mentally. The taxpayer of the state may well have to handle the financial burden but that burden is small compared to what military families will have to deal with in the near future and years to come.Though the politicians in Washington D.C. will ignore the needs of these families the citizens of this state will not. We will stand up for those families placed in harm’s way by those in Washington D.C.”

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131119193439.htm

  21. Vincent

    I am convinced that OrlandoChris is really an anti-Wyllie spammer that is trying (and succeeding) in reducing support and interest in Adrian Wyllie’s campaign by being incredibly annoying. I don’t have a vested interest either way. Wyllie was not my preferred candidate. There just seems to be no other way to make sense of OrlandoChris’ actions.

  22. Jill Pyeatt

    “Are Americans extremely gullible, or just plain mean? (Or both?)”

    They’re both. Those beheading videos were very clearly faked. That doesn’t mean the journalists are alive, but jeez!! Going to war over bad theater? How STUPID can people be?

    As far as mean, there’s no better word for the behavior of the Republican Party in several states who are working hard to destroy any chance for success the Libertarian Party might have.

  23. Matt Cholko

    It simply does not make any sense whatsoever to constantly kill brown people in the middle east. There is absolutely nothing for the average American, or American society as a whole to gain. Not to mention, it is just plain disgusting. Yet, Americans seemingly support this continued murder and pillaging. This leads me to one of two possible conclusions. Either I am totally detached from reality and Americans are incredibly mean and gullible, as you all mentioned above. Or, the statistics that are generally presented in the media about Americans’ support for war are outright lies.

  24. Jill Pyeatt

    Matt said: “the statistics that are generally presented in the media about Americans’ support for war are outright lies”.

    I’m sure media manipulation is part of it. However, if you’re active on Facebook or Twitter, it’s easy to see that many people have jumped onto the latest war wagon, and it makes me sick.

  25. Robert Capozzi

    AD: Are Americans extremely gullible, or just plain mean? (Or both?)

    ME: This latest aspect of what’s looking like a World War is most disappointing indeed. I’d like to think that the poll numbers would look QUITE different had there not been beheadings. It’s not an excuse, but it may explain why a nation that’s this war-weary would want to exact revenge for such dramatic, specific, pre-meditated killings.

    And, while I don’t usually put much stock in Alex Jones and conspiracy theories, I cannot imagine how ISIS thinks these beheadings are good ideas. Why provoke the US in such a manner? It’s inexplicable, to the point that this whole episode feels like a gigantic manipulation, or at least it makes me entertain such a notion.

  26. Michael H. Wilson

    Nick ask “what is there to discuss?” A lot I believe. The federal government will commit the nation to war, or at least the prez will do so in this case but it is local and state governments that will be dealing with the long term costs such as the damage to families of the veterans. I live not too far from one of the largest military facilities on the Westcoast and we see a fair amount of social problems from simple alcoholism and drug abuse to the inability to hold a job, domestic abuse, and serious criminal activity. All up and down the ladder from health and welfare to the criminal justice system we see problems associated with the impact of the war on veterans.

    I write this as someone who grew up a navy brat, spent time in the service myself and have had a number of veterans with PTSD as friends and acquaintances.

    Libertarian state and local candidates should be speaking about these issues every time they get a chance.

    That is my contribution for today. Now at ease people. Assume your previous discussion.

  27. Jill Pyeatt

    I, for one, make stopping wars and exposing the people who start them as warmongers my number one priority, always. It depresses the heck out of me that so much of the American public allow themselves to be manipulated into thinking it’s somehow okay to kill people because…there isn’t even a because. They just think it’s okay to kill people.

  28. Thomas L. Knapp

    “And, while I don’t usually put much stock in Alex Jones and conspiracy theories, I cannot imagine how ISIS thinks these beheadings are good ideas. Why provoke the US in such a manner? It’s inexplicable, to the point that this whole episode feels like a gigantic manipulation, or at least it makes me entertain such a notion.”

    While al Qaeda and ISIS have formally broken with each other, there’s no reason to believe that the latter’s strategy has necessarily diverged greatly from the former’s.

    The former organization has publicly and in no uncertain terms said multiple times that its strategy for getting the US out of the Middle East and Central Asia is to control and direct US interventions in those regions such that they become ugly quagmires, until the American public demands complete abandonment of the regions. So a non-conspiracy-theory reason why ISIS might think the beheadings were a good idea is that they want the US to do about it what they think the US will do about it, because they think that that will culminate in the desired final result.

    A slightly more conspiracy-theory type reason, which I happen to subscribe to, is that — at its top commander levels, at least — ISIS (and al Qaeda) knows that its support in the region, including but not limited to its ability to recruit fighters and raise funds, is enhanced rather than degraded by (and may ultimately even be completely dependent upon) American air strikes, American troops on the ground, etc. That is, their supporters support them because they seem like the only viable counterweight to American dominance in their own back yards.

  29. Robert Capozzi

    TK, thanks. So the first is a kind of rope-a-dope approach. I GUESS that’s plausible, although the US has a lot of resources and a pretty-deep-seated sense of obligation to the State of Israel’s continued existence. The US DID exit Vietnam after the quagmire became unacceptable too large numbers of Americans, but the prevailing sense of obligation wasn’t there.

    And, yes, I s’pose that if the Arab/Muslim street likes beheading theater, maybe that’s a reason for the beheadings.

    Another might just be that ISISers are lunatics, willing to commit deranged acts as part of its hyper-zealous jihad. The beheadings are hard to overlook, for sure. Despite my heavy dovish lean, I do admit that I am open to some action to counter these acts by ISIS.

    I don’t support Rand Paul’s call to declare war on ISIS, but I do understand it.

  30. Robert Capozzi

    LNC: Lawmakers cite the highly publicized and brutal beheading of two U.S. journalists in the region as justification for more intervention against IS. But they ignore the fact that, according to a Reuters report, U.S. ally Saudi Arabia beheaded several of its citizens in the last month who were convicted of non-violent crimes such as smuggling hashish and sorcery.

    ME: Is it just me, or is this a non sequitur? We can stipulate that beheadings are heinous. (I was unaware, btw, that SA is an “ally.” Are they?)

    The US is friendly with SA, certainly, but the beheadings in SA are not intended to send a message to Americans like the ISIS beheadngs have, yes? The point seems evasive to me, and I suspect to most.

  31. paulie

    Is it just me, or is this a non sequitur?

    Probably just you.

    I was unaware, btw, that SA is an “ally.” Are they?

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/03/28/fact-sheet-united-states-saudi-arabia-bilateral-relationship

    beheadings in SA are not intended to send a message to Americans like the ISIS beheadngs have

    I’m not sure why that is relevant. The US war propaganda seems to be that “we” must attack Islamic State because, look, beheadings. Meanwhile that same “we” is buddies with a regime that beheads people for cannabis and “sorcery.” And while we are at it what about US death penalty practices? Are they really more humane than beheadings?

    http://listverse.com/2013/02/04/10-horrifically-botched-executions/
    http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/26/opinion/mccracken-moreno-botched-executions/
    http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/some-examples-post-furman-botched-executions

    But maybe the beheadings aren’t the point after all, but that some supposedly non-government terrorist group dares thumb its nose and disrespect the Empire?

  32. Andy

    Paul said: “And while we are at it what about US death penalty practices? Are they really more humane than beheadings?”

    What about the numerous incidents of the police in this country engaging in acts of brutality that resulted in death, such as the beating to death of that homeless guy in Fullerton, CA, or the more recent choking to death of a gun on the streets of NYC? How are these incidents any better than what ISIS is alleged to have done?

  33. Robert Capozzi

    pf, Thanks. So according to that fact sheet, US/SA are not “allies,” but “partners,” yes?

    pf: The US war propaganda seems to be that “we” must attack Islamic State because, look, beheadings.

    me: Funny, that’s not the message I get. It’s more, “beheadings of AMERICANS,” with provocative statements against the US. Seems quite a bit different to me.

    pf: But maybe the beheadings aren’t the point after all, but that some supposedly non-government terrorist group dares thumb its nose and disrespect the Empire?

    me: Yes, I see your point. Except it’s a terrorist group that thumbs its nose and disrespects America and Americans by *beheading* our fellow citizens, at least likely for most Americans, who don’t see the US as an Empire. Ever open-minded, is there evidence that most Americans think the US is an Empire, or should be an Empire?

    Again, don’t get me wrong, I find this hawkish turn deeply disappointing. But I’d like to think I at least understand why this seems different to majorities.

    Honestly, don’t you?

  34. Robert Capozzi

    A: How are these incidents any better than what ISIS is alleged to have done?

    me: Seriously, you can’t take a stab at it? Televised public beheadings of Americans because they are Americans? Motive matters, don’t you agree?

    I note that you say ISIS is “alleged” to have done these beheadings. I think I saw somewhere that Jones is saying that the beheadings are staged special effects. Do you subscribe to that theory?

  35. Jill Pyeatt

    Even major media outlets are backing off on the beheadings videos because so many people starting making fun of them right away.

    I suspected they were fake after the first one when I saw Foley’s parents interviewed. This couple had apparently seen their son executed in a gruesome manner less than 24 hours earlier, yet they might as well have been talking about a birthday party. Neither one seemed distressed or traumatized at all.

  36. Thomas L. Knapp

    “Televised public beheadings of Americans because they are Americans?”

    Well, it’s more than “because they are Americans.”

    I think it was at Corinth, Mississippi when a Union lieutenant asked a Confederate prisoner of war why he was fighting. Answer: “Because you’re down here.”

    The beheaded prisoners went into a war zone, knowing that some of the combatants in that war zone consider everyone a combatant and treat everyone from the US an enemy combatant. That doesn’t make what happened to them right by any stretch of the imagination, but so far I haven’t heard of ISIS actively seeking to abduct and behead random housewives from Allentown, Pennsylvania.

  37. paulie

    Thanks. So according to that fact sheet, US/SA are not “allies,” but “partners,” yes?

    Help me to understand. How do you define allies and in what sense are the US and Saudi regimes not allies?

    It’s more, “beheadings of AMERICANS,”

    Gotcha. So if they were only beheading furriners I guess they could (still) be US regime allies. Or partners, or whatever.

    Ever open-minded, is there evidence that most Americans think the US is an Empire,

    Empire is as empire does. We’ve already established that beheadings of unimportant people are A-OK with the US regime, and you can even be a “partner”…of, I guess no other word will do, Empire, but insulting the …shall we say… Empire… by beheading Americans, well, that’s a capital offense. Off with their heads!

    But I’d like to think I at least understand why this seems different to majorities.

    I do’t have a problem understanding it. The war propaganda is effective, thus people are at least somewhat gullible.

    What about the numerous incidents of the police in this country engaging in acts of brutality that resulted in death, such as the beating to death of that homeless guy in Fullerton, CA, or the more recent choking to death of a gun on the streets of NYC? How are these incidents any better than what ISIS is alleged to have done?

    These terrorist cops are killing AMERICANS! We can’t less this outrage stand! Time for a military invasion of police depart….oops, I think that already happened.

  38. paulie

    Jill

    There are plenty of places claiming the videos were staged. No need to resort to linking Willis Carto’s “American Free Press,” which is about as American and Free as the “American Freedom” party.

  39. Jill Pyeatt

    Well, I was planning to leave half a dozen links, including one from Huff Post, but my computer is acting up here at work, and we are busy this Monday and I ran out of time. There’s tons of stuff if anyone googles “fake beheadings”. Considering how much they’re being used to manipulate public opinion, I think the fact that many, many people think they’re fake is significant.

  40. Robert Capozzi

    tk: The beheaded prisoners went into a war zone, knowing that some of the combatants in that war zone consider everyone a combatant and treat everyone from the US an enemy combatant. That doesn’t make what happened to them right by any stretch of the imagination, but so far I haven’t heard of ISIS actively seeking to abduct and behead random housewives from Allentown, Pennsylvania.

    me: And I’ve not said otherwise. Assuming the beheadings are real (or even if they are staged), the SYMBOLISM of them is fighting words for many. It’s highly provocative, incendiary, inflammatory.

    pf: Help me to understand. How do you define allies and in what sense are the US and Saudi regimes not allies?

    me: Well, NATO nations are allies. The US and Israel and Saudi Arabia are not, near as I can tell. It’s a formality.

    pf: Gotcha. So if they were only beheading furriners I guess they could (still) be US regime allies. Or partners, or whatever.

    Empire is as empire does. We’ve already established that beheadings of unimportant people are A-OK with the US regime, and you can even be a “partner”…of, I guess no other word will do, Empire, but insulting the …shall we say… Empire… by beheading Americans, well, that’s a capital offense. Off with their heads!

    me: Dude yer going in the wrong direction with me! I oppose all capital punishment, not just beheadings. Yes, if a nation does something that is found offensive to most Americans, most Americans would still be OK with being allies or partners. For ex., probably most Americans don’t support legalization of heroin in Portugal, but I doubt many object to allying with Portugal over that legal standard.

    In my case, I support Portugal’s move, and ideally I would want NO alliances.

  41. paulie

    Assuming the beheadings are real (or even if they are staged), the SYMBOLISM of them is fighting words for many. It’s highly provocative, incendiary, inflammatory.

    As they are meant to be. Would be advisable not to fall into that trap.

  42. Robert Capozzi

    pf, agreed. And yet it’s understandable that when something like that happens to someone on your team and you are taunted collectively, it’s human nature to want to respond forcefully.

    It’s tin-eared and evasive dismiss these beheading by attempting to equilibrate them with capital punishment practices in a partner nation.

    Or not, I s’pose.

    I think I’m forming an opinion now…probably something like marque & reprisal for the perpetrators while saying that while the impulse to re-engage the Iraq War is understandable, now is the time for self-honesty. That war was a failure, a colossal mistake.

  43. Deran

    I personally think when NATO finally intervened against the Serbs in Bosnia that was a good thing. And it only involved a small scale air war on the Serbs. I only with those air strikes agaisnt the Serbs had occured years earlier. I also think small scale air attacks in Rwanda would also have made a difference, ended the genocide.

    In addition, in both cases, there should have been a robust and heavily armed, UN force on teh ground with a shoot to kill order to stop the Serbs and the Hutus. But in the case of Bosnia, Russia stood in the way in the Security Council of any effective UN role in Bosnia.

    But given how wide spread IS is I do not see air strikes as being a realistic means of stopping IS. Nor do I think US forces on the ground would do anything to improve the situation. IS is unlike either Bosnia or Rwanda. imo.

  44. Deran

    Paulie, the NATO involvement in Kosovo was unrelated to the Serbian war against the Bosnians.

    And if the air strikes in Kosovo killed civillians that is a war crime. But it is my opinion the Serbs earned everything they got. Including the bombing of Belgrade. That should have been done in 1992. Though, again, as much as the Serbs earned what they got, it is true that if the NATO air strikes on Belgrade targeted civillian areas, that too is a war crime. But again, the Serbs earned much of what has happened to them.

  45. paulie

    Paulie, the NATO involvement in Kosovo was unrelated to the Serbian war against the Bosnians.

    Interesting admission. What other rationale did it have?

    And if the air strikes in Kosovo killed civillians that is a war crime.

    They sure did, and it was, but good luck getting anyone to do anything about it.

    But it is my opinion the Serbs earned everything they got. Including the bombing of Belgrade. That should have been done in 1992.

    Why?

  46. Robert Capozzi

    jp et al, I’d say that if the beheadings were staged but the killings happened off-camera as Jill’s link suggests, I’m not sure how that changes anything. The killings happened, and some in ISIS presented a form of killing in a manner to provoke. They achieved that outcome, I’d say.

    I stand by M&R with a bounty on those who killed Americans and provoked us collectively. I had no plans to visit Auburn, anyway!

  47. paulie

    jp et al, I’d say that if the beheadings were staged but the killings happened off-camera as Jill’s link suggests, I’m not sure how that changes anything. The killings happened, and some in ISIS presented a form of killing in a manner to provoke. They achieved that outcome, I’d say.

    I agree too. And also agree that we shouldn’t fall into that trap.

    I stand by M&R with a bounty on those who killed Americans and provoked us collectively

    Me too. Although I don’t know that police unions would appreciate their fellow officers being treated like that, and the Secret Service would probably stop you from going after Bush, Obama and their top henchmen in such a manner. But yeah, M&R for the Islamic State, sure, why not. They are scum too.

    I had no plans to visit Auburn, anyway!

    As a former resident of Auburn I am confused by that. The Auburn PD, while not the best, is also not nearly the worst cop gang outfit I have dealt with. None of the US regime leaders live in Auburn as far as I know, nor any top jihadists, again, as far as I know. Who were we talking about marqueeing and reprising down there, Gus Malzahn? Even as a Tide fan I think that would be a bit too extreme 🙂

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