IPR Writer Gathering Opinions Regarding Making Vaccines Mandatory

Injecting baby

I’m writing an article about various third parties and their views on vaccines and whether they should be mandatory. If you’d like to write something about my topic, it doesn’t have to be an official party view, although I’d like to identify what party you’re part of. I can use your name, or not–your choice. If you’re interested, please send it to: stone@altrionet.com or leave it as a comment here. A few paragraphs is fine.

Thank you!

Jill Pyeatt

154 thoughts on “IPR Writer Gathering Opinions Regarding Making Vaccines Mandatory

  1. Jed Ziggler

    First off, you should get your kids vaccinated. Whatever risk there might be of vaccines causing autism (and I personally don’t believe that for a second, by the way), they are far less than the risk of measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough, and a host of other illnesses that are being brought out of relative extinction because a bunch of scatterbrained Hollywood idiots like Jenny McCarthy have been circulating wild conspiracy theories based on a discredited report from 1998.

    If you don’t vaccinate your kids, you’re a moron, and when you send your at-risk kid amongst immune-deficient children who are unable to be vaccinated, you are infringing on their rights & endangering them, and could be held criminally liable.

    However, forcing parents to vaccinate their kids, or vaccinating them against their will is a government overreach. Parents have the right to make stupid decisions when it comes to parenting their children. Use of force is unacceptable and morally abhorrent.

    The solution: for once our bloated welfare state comes in handy. If you don’t want to have your kids vaccinated, that’s your right, but you may not send your children to government schools, you will not be eligible for most forms of social welfare including SNAP and WIC, you will not be eligible for subsidies under the ACA program, and your child may be ineligible for government-backed student loans. Do the right and responsible thing for your kids, or you don’t get to suckle from the government teat.

    Jed Ziggler
    independent libertarian

  2. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Thanks, Jed! I’ve also received a couple from the Constitution Party already.

    I’ll check your link, Chuck. I know Sarwark has some conversation on his wall, also.

  3. Andy Craig

    I think the Libertarian answer, if you think as I do that refusing these vaccines is an unwise risk that does to some degree endanger others, that the problem is in part one of state-run schools. They’re the ones giving out exemptions to anybody who asks for one, against the recommendations of sound medical science. And while the line can be fuzzy, I don’t think the state is doing anything in mandating vaccines for school attendance, that a responsible private school owner wouldn’t do. So I’m not going to demand that the state do a *bad* job of administering schools, just because I don’t think they should be administering schools.

    Nobody is seriously talking about a legal mandate to be vaccinated. There are no SWAT teams kicking down the door and taking your kids away because of it, and nobody is seriously proposing to change that. So the “mandatory” debate is a bit of a distraction, from the real issue of what is or isn’t a proper measure for the state to take in its role as owner/manager of schools, not under the general police power to command individual behavior.

    Of course, then when can get into all the reasons why the “choice” of whether or not to attend public schools isn’t an entirely free one, because you still have to pay for it, etc. But that’s getting pretty far removed from the question of if existing state schools should have a mandatory vaccination policy and if it should have narrow medical-only exemptions or broad anybody-who-wants-one exemptions. In that regard I place it in the same category as the debate over school uniforms and religion in school and different teaching styles, etc., which don’t have a per se Libertarian answer as to if they’re good or bad, so much as a Libertarian answer as to why the state shouldn’t be in that business in the first place.

  4. Joshua Katz

    Well, it’s all well and good to say you can’t go to school unvaccinated (public schools) but how exactly are the immunocompromised supposed to know where else is safe? Obviously, not Disney World. Are we going to have a world where those with immune problems can’t go anywhere – while a technological answer eixsts?

    However, I also can’t abide by any law requiring vaccination as a condition of breathing.

    I don’t have a good answer here.

  5. Andy Craig

    @Martin Passolli

    That specifically deals with a requirement of foster parents, a woman who is raising seven children under the more direct supervision and responsibility of the state. It is not a general requirement for all persons or all parents/children that is being enforced in that case, which is what I was talking about. There are a long list of rules and supervision and qualifications foster parents have to comply with, that don’t apply to the general population of parents. It’s what they agree to when they sign up to receive children *from the state*

    “Well, it’s all well and good to say you can’t go to school unvaccinated (public schools) but how exactly are the immunocompromised supposed to know where else is safe? Obviously, not Disney World. Are we going to have a world where those with immune problems can’t go anywhere – while a technological answer eixsts?”

    If effectively all schools and most employers require it, then I think you reach the effectively-universal vaccination rates without the rightfully distasteful (*and not an actual law or even proposal anywhere in the US*) that people be vaccinated “as a condition of breathing”. The Disney World outbreak is a direct result of the public, government schools letting any parent who heard a Jenny McCarthy diatribe refuse a vaccination with no medical basis, leading to un-vaccinated rates climbing into the double-digit percentages. If we want to identify the government problem here, I think that’s it.

  6. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    The measles link to Disneyland was very weak, but the media has run with it. I find it really difficult to believe they’ve really been able to trace these 100 or so cases back to one kid in a theme park, since there are thousands and thousands of people in Disneyland at any point in time. I also keep hearing about how Disneyland has been closed over it, and that’s not true, either. That’s part of what is so frustrating about this topic. It’s hysteria and drama designed to appeal to parents’ emotions. It makes me suspicious as to why they have to resort to scaring parents. I thought the hysteria over the US’s Ebola outbreak was ridiculous (hint: there was no Ebola outbreak here), but this measles hysteria is just-over-the top.

    What the drama and hysteria means to me is that I need to do some research into this topic to make the decisions of what really is the best thing to do. If some vaccines should be mandatory, do all of them need to be? Should they be spread out over a longer period of time, or perhaps should fewer be given at a time? This is a much more complicated topic than people seem to think it is.

  7. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Andy Craig, I don’t know about your state, but California schools tell everyone that vaccinations are necessary to register kids for school, but that’s absolutely untrue. Why this huge lie? Tell people why vaccines are important, and they’ll do the right thing. Tell lies and make people wonder what the heck they’re trying to hide.

  8. Andy Craig

    @Jill Pyeatt. It’s mandatory with opt-out, which I agree about the mixed signals that sends, but it’s how the law is written. State logic at work I suppose.

    Reminds me of a good rule of thumb I heard with regards to religious exemption cases in another context: if a law can survive an opt-out, it probably shouldn’t be a law in the first place. Classic case being you can’t plead religious exemption to the murder laws, but try asking the Amish for their social security number. In this case I think the rule doesn’t survive a broad exemption policy.

    And to be clear, if we had a hypothetical law that said all persons, or all children, had to be vaccinated by force, I’d be right there opposing that. But that’s not the type of policy that’s actually under discussion, we’re talking about school administrative rules. And I don’t think a genuinely “mandatory” vaccine law could be passed anywhere currently, and if it was it probably wouldn’t survive in the courts.

  9. paulie

    https://www.ouramericainitiative.com/mississippi.html

    Protect Doctor-Patient Relationship Related to Vaccines & All Health Services

    January, 2015. Our America Initiative supports the Mississippi Center for Public Policy in its quest to protect health freedom, including putting childhood vaccination decisions into the hands of parents and doctors. As one of only two states that do not grant religious or philosophical waivers for vaccinations for school children, Mississippi has created a system where one individual, the State Health Officer, makes vaccination decisions for all children. In all but one other state, doctors are allowed to write waivers if necessary and submit them directly to the schools. In Mississippi, a physician’s waiver can be denied by a bureaucrat. We urge supporters to email their state representative and senator to support Representative Formby’s HB 130, which as explained by Mississippi Parents for Vaccine Rights would allow doctors and parents, not unelected bureaucrats, to control whether and at what pace to vaccinate. Consumers must retain the right to refuse a service in the health market, or the concepts of “informed consent” and the “doctor-patient relationship” lose all meaning. Indeed, with patients facing taxes for refusal to buy ObamaCare coverage, with doctors and therapies facing closure by unaccountable health boards and the Food and Drug Administration, and with our government losing its own discretion as its budget soon becomes overwhelmed by uncontrolled health entitlements, your donation is needed now more than ever to help Our America Initiative and its Advisory Council on Health Reform advocate for the voluntary doctor-patient relationship and a free health market through more of our fifty state affiliates.

  10. Robert Capozzi

    The question in my mind is: Is not vaccinating child abuse?

    We don’t let parents beat or kill their kids, after all.

    Unfortunately, many believe that parents own their children, like chattel until they are 18.

    OTOH, the state does not OWN children either. And not all vaccines are effective or without side effects. Science is not nearly as scientific as they claim to be. How many times will “scientists” reverse their position on nutritional items…coffee, beer, wine, beef…I can’t keep up with what the “scientific studies” say.

    The altar of science is imperfect, so saying that all children MUST get this or that vaccine should be done with care.

  11. paulie

    Unfortunately, many believe that parents own their children, like chattel until they are 18.

    The Rand Paul position? If he actually believes that I disagree with him. If he actually meant that the state should not overstep its bounds and take on the traditional role of parents in setting rules/guidelines and providing for children – while taking on the same role for adults and in effect turn them into children – he had a point.

    If, in typical Rand Paul fashion, he meant to blur the difference and have it both ways, he deserves the ridicule, confusion, walking back and twisting and turning that resulted. Since that is his usual MO, expect a lot more of that as he (presumably) runs for president.

    OTOH, the state does not OWN children either. And not all vaccines are effective or without side effects.

    Exactly.

    Science is not nearly as scientific as they claim to be.

    We need to distinguish here between science, which is a method of inquiry based on applied skepticism and evidence-based pursuit of knowledge, and scientism – vesting the scientific establishment with a quasi-religious authority that is completely at odds with the spirit of scientific inquiry IMO.

  12. Robert Capozzi

    pf: science, which is a method of inquiry based on applied skepticism and evidence-based pursuit of knowledge,

    me: Exactly. It is merely a method of inquiry in the PURSUIT of knowledge. Sometimes, I think “science” is the best guess available.

    Scientism is a kind of fundamentalism, which forgets its own skepticism!

    This vaccine issue leads me to again advocate Nonarchy Pods. If someone doesn’t want their family to be in civil society and to abide by the rule of law, OK. Secede onto your own property.

    Extreme? Yes. But it’s the logical solution and reveals the many flaws of unqualified anarchism.

  13. paulie

    It is merely a method of inquiry in the PURSUIT of knowledge. Sometimes, I think “science” is the best guess available.

    Scientism is a kind of fundamentalism, which forgets its own skepticism!

    Good point. And as we’ve previously discussed I have no problem with archy pods, so long as the S&M relationship is mutually consenting with no unwilling captives, and so long as the submissives may change their mind and leave the archy pod at any time.

  14. Beth Duensing

    I am against government force in all aspects of our lives. I’ve read many comments from those thinking an exception should be made with vaccines to provide ‘herd immunity’. Dr. Suzanne Humphries explains why herd immunity does not work.

    I do not know how to embed this youtube here, but you may follow the link to view the 8 min. or so video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubSPeZAOeDs

  15. LibertarianGirl

    this topic has created a firestorm , people are getting ugly on both sides , IMO the risk on either side is minimal, very few die from not vaxxing , very few die from vaxxing , and very few unvaxxed infect those few that cant vaxx but want to. dont believe the hype

  16. Robert Capozzi

    pf: I have no problem with archy pods, so long as the S&M relationship is mutually consenting with no unwilling captives, and so long as the submissives may change their mind and leave the archy pod at any time.

    me: We have archy pods now. You and I live in one of the bigger ones; it’s known as the United States of America.

    Seceding from the USA should be easy enough, but I can’t go with your “leave the archy pod at any time” to found a nation of one. If someone commits a crime and then attempts to secede as a means to avoid prosecution, you can surely see how dysfunctional that would be, yes?

    If a family decided to exit the USA onto its own property as a means to avoid vaccinating their children, that too would be prohibited, since the parents are not owners, but rather guardians, of their children. If the rule of law states that not vaccinating is tantamount to child abuse, then the state has an interest in protecting its minor citizens from child abuse.

    A pretty crisp and straightforward approach, I’d submit.

  17. Robert Capozzi

    bd: Should the government decide to mandate vaccines, would the payouts for those injured by vaccines end?

    me: Strikes me that it is fair to pay compensation for the rare instance where a mandated vaccine does demonstrable damage.

  18. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I’m amazed at the response! I’ve had nearly a dozen responses in less than 24 hours. I may end up writing Parts A and B.

    Most of the responses have been Libertarian (or libertarian), but I’ve had a couple from the Constitution Party. I’d like to hear from some Greens and Socialists. Perhaps I’ll post to some more FB pages, but if anyone wants to pass along my request to people in both parties, that would help..

  19. Joshua Katz

    RC – if not vaccinating a child is abuse, is it also abuse to vaccinate? In general it’s abusive to jab people with sharp objects, isn’t it?

    RE: Herd immunity – I don’t think the science helps one way or the other. Morals can’t depend on the answer to a very specific scientific question.

  20. paulie

    We have archy pods now. You and I live in one of the bigger ones; it’s known as the United States of America.

    Giant nation-state spanning thousands of miles and hundreds of millions of people, surrounded by nothing but other nation-states, is way different from an archy pod. That would be like if we set up your “anarchy pods” but they just so happened to cover all or virtually all of the planet. But nice try. Archy pods would be a lot like your vision of anarchy pods. The key feature of either one is that participation is purely voluntary and getting out to live either under voluntary hierarchy or voluntary multipolarchy woud be relatively easy. That feature is non-existent with modern regime-states.

  21. Andy Craig

    “Protect Doctor-Patient Relationship Related to Vaccines & All Health Services”

    That’s probably the first OAI project I’ve seen that I personally disagree with (though I don’t review all of them). Not that I really see it as a problem, but I don’t think requiring vaccination in the context of school attendance in an infringement on liberty (at least not to any greater degree than the public school system itself is one). I’m not going to object to the government as owner/administrator or a resource or institution (in this case schools) doing something that I think would be perfectly reasonable and indeed wise for a private equivalent in the same position to do. That just my two cents on the matter, though.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2015/01/30/mississippi-yes-mississippi-has-the-nations-best-child-vaccination-rate-heres-why/

    excerpts:

    “Today, Mississippi and West Virginia are the only states that don’t allow parents to claim religious or philosophical exemptions to the rules for vaccinating children before they enroll in school. Only medical exemptions are allowed in Mississippi and West Virginia, as they are in every state.”

    “Still, the state public health officials responded to the pressure to change. In 2009, the state relaxed its requirements for medical exemptions. Parents used to need a doctor to submit paperwork to a county health official, who would evaluate whether the exemption was warranted. Medical exemptions were difficult to obtain. But, Currier said, the state now approves all medical exemptions it receives from doctors. Last year, all 130 requests were approved.”

  22. paulie

    Seceding from the USA should be easy enough, but I can’t go with your “leave the archy pod at any time” to found a nation of one. If someone commits a crime and then attempts to secede as a means to avoid prosecution, you can surely see how dysfunctional that would be, yes?

    That depends on the crime. If it’s something like murder, robbery or rape, you have a point. If it’s something dumb like conducting business without a license, not paying taxes, smoking pot, trading sexual services for something else, or things of that nature I’d say secede away.

  23. paulie

    If a family decided to exit the USA onto its own property as a means to avoid vaccinating their children, that too would be prohibited, since the parents are not owners, but rather guardians, of their children. If the rule of law states that not vaccinating is tantamount to child abuse, then the state has an interest in protecting its minor citizens from child abuse.

    A pretty crisp and straightforward approach, I’d submit.

    …Which directly contradicts your original shoehorn of pods in this thread at 0707:

    This vaccine issue leads me to again advocate Nonarchy Pods. If someone doesn’t want their family to be in civil society and to abide by the rule of law, OK. Secede onto your own property.

    You may now go ahead and debate yourself.

  24. Jed Ziggler

    “I’m amazed at the response! I’ve had nearly a dozen responses in less than 24 hours. I may end up writing Parts A and B.

    Most of the responses have been Libertarian (or libertarian), but I’ve had a couple from the Constitution Party. I’d like to hear from some Greens and Socialists. Perhaps I’ll post to some more FB pages, but if anyone wants to pass along my request to people in both parties, that would help..”

    I sent a tweet to the national Green Party, Justice Party, Socialist Party, PSL, and SEP. May try to email a few folks.

  25. Robert Capozzi

    jk: n general it’s abusive to jab people with sharp objects, isn’t it?

    me: I can’t tell if you are kidding or not! Yes, IN GENERAL it is. Specifically, though, no, a medical professional administering a shot or a vaccine is intended to further the patient’s health.

    So, since this is so obvious, I assume you WERE kidding, yes?

  26. Robert Capozzi

    pf: Archy pods would be a lot like your vision of anarchy pods.

    me: Well, OK, you want your nation-states to be as small as possible. I’m OK with that. To get from here to there, though, you’d need a path toward that. It’d be fairly easy to allow sociopaths and malcontents or really, really dedicated people out of the nation-state and into a nation of one.

    Their neighbors could join in the autarkic fun and evolve one nonarchy pod into an archy pod if they chose to.

    The main thing for the rest of us is to build walls to keep them in!

  27. Robert Capozzi

    pf: That depends on the crime. If it’s something like murder, robbery or rape, you have a point. If it’s something dumb like conducting business without a license, not paying taxes, smoking pot, trading sexual services for something else, or things of that nature I’d say secede away.

    me: Good point. It would need to be worked out. I’d say certainly victimless criminals should be allow to emPod themselves.

  28. Robert Capozzi

    pf: …Which directly contradicts your original shoehorn of pods in this thread at 0707:

    me: au contraire! There is a difference between an ADULT emPodding him or herself, and parents emPodding a child.

  29. paulie

    My mistake. I must have incorrectly assumed that when you wrote “If someone doesn’t want their family to be in civil society and to abide by the rule of law, OK. Secede onto your own property” that family would include any underage children they are raising.

  30. Robert Capozzi

    pf: My mistake. I must have incorrectly assumed that when you wrote “If someone doesn’t want their family to be in civil society and to abide by the rule of law, OK. Secede onto your own property” that family would include any underage children they are raising.

    me: No mistake. As a general matter, family emPodding seems appropriate. If we knew the reason was to avoid vaccination, however, I would say the state has a claim to protect the child from child abuse.

    As a practical matter, would-be Podsters could easily withhold their motive.

    Hope that clears up any confusion….

  31. paulie

    Lindey Hughes Magee posted in Libertarian Party of Mississippi

    The New York Times coverage of Mississippi’s oppressive vaccine law.

    “Lindey Magee, a co-director of Mississippi Parents for Vaccine Rights, said the immunization standards were so overbearing that she opted to home-school her son and daughter so that they could avoid certain inoculations.

    ‘I don’t like being coerced into something,’ said Ms. Magee, of McComb, a city of about 13,000 people near the Louisiana border. ‘My husband and I prayerfully and carefully made that decision, and there’s no room for prayerful, careful decisions in Mississippi concerning our vaccine schedule.’

    Ms. Magee said she did not wish for Mississippi’s vaccine program to be abolished. She said she wanted a more relaxed schedule and the right to choose which shots her children would receive and when.
    She also said the extraordinary vaccination rate that Mississippi officials cherish was shameful.

    ‘I’m not proud of it,’ Ms. Magee said. ‘I don’t think it’s something to be proud of. I think all it shows is that we are being extorted for our reputation of ignorance in Mississippi. We bring up the national rear in everything that matters.'”

    NOTE: MPVR supporters went into the meeting knowing that the bill had been changed. The tears that the reporter saw would have been tears of joy that the bill made it out of committee thus giving us hope.
    Hope that the bill will become law giving parents freedom from the oppressive use of power by the MSDOH. Joy that the vaccine waiver requests from specialists in Memphis, TN, Birmingham, AL and New Orleans, LA who treat many MS children will finally be honored.

    NOTE: The MSDH mandatory kindergarten vaccine schedule is NOT “5 Vaccines.” It is 30 doses of 9 vaccines, more if a child attends daycare.

    Mississippi, a Vaccination Leader, Stands by Its Strict Rules
    http://www.nytimes.com
    A bill that would have created a new immunization exemption was heavily amended on Tuesday, leaving …

  32. paulie

    http://www.ruwart.com/blog/vaccines-mandatory.html

    Should Vaccines Be Mandatory?
    February 5, 2015 by Mary Ruwart

    With the new surge of measles cases, many people are calling for mandatory (forced) vaccination. At first glance, their arguments seem reasonable. Measles can kill and the vaccine is reportedly about 95% effective. Side effects are claimed to be minimal, although serious outcomes are reported on pp. 6-8 of the package insert that comes with the vaccine, including measles itself.

    Even if the vaccine had zero side effects and 100% effectiveness, forcing it upon children would start us down the slippery slope of allowing bureaucrats and politicians to decide what medications we MUST ingest or be injected with. Today’s pharmaceuticals have the power to alter our thinking, libido, and even our desire to live. Some schools already diagnose boisterous children, bored with the one-size-fits-all curriculum, as having some type of disorder, and demand that they be given medications that have serious side effects.

    Ultimately, each of us must weigh the risks and benefits of what we eat and how we medicate. Choose wisely, and good health to you and yours!

  33. Robert Capozzi

    mr: Even if the vaccine had zero side effects and 100% effectiveness, forcing it upon children would start us down the slippery slope of allowing bureaucrats and politicians to decide what medications we MUST ingest or be injected with.

    me: Is this true? Is requiring some form of education for kids a slippery slope?

    Or is denying these things child abuse?

    Close call, and certainly I have a strong bias against the state requiring anything of anyone, but we don’t let parents beat their children (beyond light spankings), do we?

    Or do we?

  34. paulie

    She didn’t say anything about education.

    but we don’t let parents beat their children (beyond light spankings), do we?

    There’s not universal agreement on what is acceptable parental discipline of children. What some people consider parental rights others consider child abuse. I don’t have any easy answers on where to draw the line.

  35. Guess what

    Next up: “IPR writer gathering opinions regarding making delousing with Zyklon-B mandatory.”

  36. paulie

    There are entire alt parties, and individual members of others, who don’t believe Zyklon B ever killed anyone, just as there are some that don’t believe vaccines are safe or effective. However, I think most probably do, in both cases.

  37. Guess what

    The science is in. Zyklon B is safe and effective. That’s why we need a special law exempting IG Farben from all regular standards of tort liability.

  38. paulie

    “The science is in. Zyklon B is safe and effective.”

    I’m sure you won’t mind demonstrating this with yourself as a test subject.

  39. Jonny Stryder

    Public school admins “should have” the right to make vaxxing a general condition to entry into the classroom, just as private school admins, Disneyland, and any property owner or employer should be allowed to do. Exactly what exceptions should be made to such policies I am willing to leave up to such admins to sort out. Of course, tax-supported schools should not exist at all, so what they are permitted to do is strictly a pragmatic question, like arguing over the least offensive way to murder somebody. Such questions can get confusing.

    What Libertarians should be doing is insisting that all medical choices are, in fundamental principle, solely the province of the patient – even if those choices are NOT the choices approved by the “experts” whoever they are. Not the parent, not the state, not the doctor, not corporations making vaccines, not the benevolent experts at any Federal or State department: only the patient. Any person making medical choices that create an unreasonable risk of harm is responsible for the actual harm caused by those choices, just as vaccine providers should be liable for negligence in preparation of vaccines and doctors should be liable for negligence in advising a patient to vaccinate or not. If the patient is incapable of understanding what choices are available, special rules can apply obviously; the basic approach should be to identify the closest capable patient advocate/temporary decision maker based on the patient’s personal relationships.

  40. Robert Capozzi

    pf: What some people consider parental rights others consider child abuse. I don’t have any easy answers on where to draw the line.

    me: Exactly. Whether refusal to inoculate falls on one side or the other of child abuse or neglect, I jus’ dunno.

    It’s not obviously unreasonable to expect inoculations against deadly disease, despite my heavy bias for all human action to be entirely voluntary. Sadly, doing so leads to chaos.

    Basic laws to maintain domestic tranquility seems abundantly supportable to me.

  41. paulie

    HIT & RUN BLOG

    Shame and Shun Anti-Vaccine Parents
    It’s sad that it’s come to this
    http://reason.com/blog/2015/02/04/shame-and-shun-anti-vaccine-parents
    Ronald Bailey|Feb. 4, 2015 4:47 pm

    To Vaccinate or Not To Vaccinate? Why We Should Consult Roe v. Wade
    Who owns your body? This is a question the government does not want to answer truthfully.
    http://reason.com/archives/2015/02/05/to-vaccinate-or-not-to-vaccinate
    Andrew Napolitano | February 5, 2015

    Should Vaccines Be Mandatory?
    A libertarian debate on immunization and government
    http://reason.com/archives/2014/03/25/should-vaccines-be-mandatory
    Matt Welch, Ronald Bailey, Jeffrey A. Singer & Sandy Reider from the April 2014 issue

  42. Guess what

    Things would be a lot more tranquil if everyone was mainlining mercury and other heavy metals across the blood-brain barrier. Those last 10 or 20 IQ points make the populace a lot more feisty. Depriving them of full of brain function is abundantly supportable.

  43. paulie

    What Libertarians should be doing is insisting that all medical choices are, in fundamental principle, solely the province of the patient – even if those choices are NOT the choices approved by the “experts” whoever they are. Not the parent, not the state, not the doctor, not corporations making vaccines, not the benevolent experts at any Federal or State department: only the patient.

    How does that work when the patient is a baby, pre-schooler or first grader?

    Exactly. Whether refusal to inoculate falls on one side or the other of child abuse or neglect, I jus’ dunno.

    I was actually thinking of your example (spanking children). At what point does it become unacceptable child beating as opposed to acceptable parental discipline? Some people believe even light spanking of children is child abuse and should be illegal, although I don’t think most people agree.

  44. paulie

    Things would be a lot more tranquil if everyone was mainlining mercury and other heavy metals across the blood-brain barrier. Those last 10 or 20 IQ points make the populace a lot more feisty. Depriving them of full of brain function is abundantly supportable.

    What? No video of you in a sealed chamber with Zyklon B administered by independent experts not of your choosing yet?

  45. Robert Capozzi

    pf: Some people believe even light spanking of children is child abuse and should be illegal

    me: I’d be one of those, although I recognize that that prevailing culture feels otherwise. So I flow with that.

    Roe is not really analogous, as it represents a potential person in a full person’s body. Both are isolated to the players involved.

    Communicable, deadly diseases are not. They can be spread to others.

  46. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    The problem with spanking is that very question of where punishment stops and abuse begins. Also, factor in there that the parent is angry. Don’t we all know what it’s like to be furious, walk away from the situation to reassess, and then see that what happened wasn’t so awful after all?

    Sorry, I just don’t think hitting a child is appropriate. Surely the human race has evolved past that.

    Having said all that, I wouldn’t intervene in a household that was spanking unless there was clear evidence of abuse. I really do believe most parents dearly love their children and are doing the very best they can to raise them properly (and it really isn’t so easy sometimes). Many people were spanked (I wasn’t) and believe that that particular type of punishment is appropriate. Just like vaccinating, it should be up to the parent to make the decisions for their child while they’re too yong to make their own decisions. Calling non-vaccinating child abuse is over-the-top unless it’s part of a negligent pattern of parenting. Most non-vaxxers, from what I can tell, have diligently researched the topic before making their decisions.

    Do I dare even beinging up circumcision for boys? That’s another tough question, IMHO, with good reasons on both sides for doing it or not..

  47. Jed Ziggler

    Response from Bradford Lyttle of the US Pacifist Party, sent to me via email:

    While the United States Pacifist Party (USPP) has not taken an official stand on vaccination, I, as the founder of the party, and its presidential candidate in several elections, do have a position. I believe that vaccination should be mandatory in all cases where the overwhelming preponderance of scientific evidence indicates that they are effective in preventing a disease, and there is little or no evidence that they have adverse side effects. If vaccinations of this kind are not made mandatory, then there is a much greater likelihood that some children will not be vaccinated, may contract the disease, and thereby become carriers that may infect others.–Sincerely, Bradford Lyttle

  48. Matt Cholko

    You’re an idiot if you don’t vaccinate your kids, or get yourself vaccinated for the serious, preventable diseases.

    You’re also not responsible for my health. So, you’re free to be an idiot.

  49. Robert Capozzi

    I really don’t know much about vaccines — so stipulated — but are there not a lot of vaccines these days, not just a few like for the measles? I wonder if there is some conflation with the newer, less proven ones.

    BTW, I never get the flu shot. This may be a mistake, but I generally don’t like unnecessary medical procedures, since I know that there are side effects. Also, my understanding is that the flu shots only cover some strains and not others, so some who get the shot still get the flu. And sometimes the flu shot leads to a person getting the flu.

    I get the flu perhaps every other year. It sucks for a few days, but so far I’ve survived.

    So I am certainly a skeptic about what “science” tells us what we must do, enforced by the State. Polio and the measles apparently work. I’m just not sure that parents as guardians are necessarily the right folks to decide, either.

  50. Jed Ziggler

    From Roger Tucker of the Independent American Party:

    I believe that the science behind the good value of vaccine use is true. However, I do not trust the people who manufacture the vaccines for the bad ingredients that they cause or can cause to be included in the vaccines. These people have no desire to make everyone live healthier and longer. They want to reduce the population, not increase it. They want to make money off of sick people. The logic that these people use is void of any belief in our Lord and Savior, who is Jesus Christ.

    If you use my statement, please quote all of it.

    I am an Independent American
    Roger Tucker

  51. Andy Craig

    Just so we’re clear: there is not a single state or jurisdiction in the union where vaccines are mandatory on individual persons as a condition of being alive. Nowhere in the United States is it illegal for a parent to not vaccinate their children, or themselves. Nobody, with any power to do so, is seriously proposing that be changed. Few if any judges would uphold such a law if it were passed under present circumstances.

    Instead of a debate over the actual policy at stake: how broad of an exemption policy schools should have on vaccination *as a condition of school attendance*, this has somehow become a debate over a law that flat-out doesn’t exist and in all likelihood never will.

    If it did, I would oppose it. But I’m not going to fight phantoms, and I’m not going to demand that the state qua school administrator adopt policies that would be unwise and ill-advised for a private school equivalent, just because I prefer the state not be in the business of running schools in the first place. Just like I wouldn’t try to fight the “mandate” that public school attendees have a suitable backpack and supplies or follow the dress code.

  52. Nicholas Sarwark

    So I am certainly a skeptic about what “science” tells us what we must do, enforced by the State. Polio and the measles apparently work. I’m just not sure that parents as guardians are necessarily the right folks to decide, either.

    I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that you are not a parent.

  53. Robert Capozzi

    ns: I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that you are not a parent.

    me: True. Though I’m not sure it’s relevant.

    Yes, there may be parents who feel it’s OK for them to beat their children, but I’m not sure their behavior should be accepted “just because” they are the parents.

    Do you have a theory as to how they do, Mr. Chairman?

  54. Robert Capozzi

    Curious: Does someone with Ebola have the right to, say, ride the subway or fly on an airline flight?

  55. Nicholas Sarwark

    When you suggest that parents are not the right folks to decide what medical treatment is appropriate for their children, it implies that someone else is. Most parents would not cede that decision making authority to someone else.

    Perhaps you can clarify who should make medical decisions for children.

  56. Andy

    To Vaccinate or Not To Vaccinate?

    By Andrew P. Napolitano

    February 5, 2015

    New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie unwittingly ignited a firestorm earlier this week when he responded to a reporter’s question in Great Britain about forced vaccinations of children in New Jersey by suggesting that the law in the U.S. needs to balance the rights of parents against the government’s duty to maintain standards of public health.

    Before Christie could soften the tone of his use of the word “balance,” Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul jumped into the fray to support the governor. In doing so, he made a stronger case for the rights of parents by advancing the view that all vaccines do not work for all children and the ultimate decision-maker should be parents and not bureaucrats or judges. He argued not for balance, but for bias — in favor of parents.

    When Christie articulated the pro-balance view, he must have known that New Jersey law, which he enforces, has no balance, shows no deference to parents’ rights and permits exceptions to universal vaccinations only for medical reasons (where a physician certifies that the child will get sicker because of a vaccination) or religious objections. Short of those narrow reasons, in New Jersey, if you don’t vaccinate your children, you risk losing parental custody of them.

    The science is overwhelming that vaccinations work for most children most of the time. Paul, who is a physician, said, however, he knew of instances in which poorly timed vaccinations had led to mental disorders. Yet, he was wise enough to make the pro-freedom case, and he made it stronger than Christie did.

    To Paul, the issue is not science. That’s because in a free society, we are free to reject scientific orthodoxy and seek unorthodox scientific cures. Of course, we do that at our peril if our rejection of truth and selection of alternatives results in harm to others.

    The issue, according to Paul, is: WHO OWNS YOUR BODY? This is a question the government does not want to answer truthfully, because if it does, it will sound like Big Brother in George Orwell’s novel “1984.” That’s because the government believes it owns your body.

    Paul and no less an authority than the U.S. Supreme Court have rejected that concept. Under the natural law, because you retain the rights inherent in your birth that you have not individually given away to government, the government does not own your body.

    Rather, you do. And you alone can decide your fate with respect to the ingestion of medicine. What about children? Paul argues that parents are the natural and legal custodians of their children’s bodies until they reach maturity or majority, somewhere between ages 14 and 18, depending on the state of residence.

    What do the states have to do with this? Under our Constitution, the states, and not the federal government, are the guardians of public health. That is an area of governance not delegated by the states to the feds. Of course, you’d never know this to listen to the debate today in which Big Government politicians, confident in the science, want a one-size-fits-all regimen.

    No less a champion of government in your face than Hillary Clinton jumped into this debate with a whacky Tweet that argued that because the Earth is round and the sky is blue and science is right, all kids should be vaccinated. What she was really saying is that in her progressive worldview, the coercive power of the federal government can be used to enforce a scientific orthodoxy upon those states and individuals who intellectually reject it.

    In America, you are free to reject it.

    Clinton and her Big Government colleagues would be wise to look at their favorite Supreme Court decision: Roe v. Wade. Yes, the same Roe v. Wade that 42 years ago unleashed 45 million abortions also defines the right to bear and raise children as fundamental, and thus personal to parents, and thus largely immune from state interference and utterly immune from federal interference.

    Paul’s poignant question about who owns your body — and he would be the first to tell you that this is not a federal issue — cannot be ignored by Christie or Clinton or any other presidential candidate. If Paul is right, if we do own our bodies and if we are the custodians of our children’s bodies until they reach maturity, then we have the right to make health care choices free from government interference, even if our choices are grounded in philosophy or religion or emotion or alternative science.

    But if Paul is wrong, if the government owns our bodies, then the presumption of individual liberty guaranteed by the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution has been surreptitiously discarded, and there will be no limit to what the government can compel us to do or to what it can extract from us — in the name of science or any other of its modern-day gods.

  57. paulie

    I already linked that article and quite a few others earlier in this thread. Why did we need the full text of that one in particular here? Do I need to post the full text of all the other ones too?

  58. Robert Capozzi

    ns: When you suggest that parents are not the right folks to decide what medical treatment is appropriate for their children, it implies that someone else is.

    me: Sorry, to set the context, I said: “Polio and the measles apparently work. I’m just not sure that parents as guardians are necessarily the right folks to decide, either.”

    As a general rule, of course I think parental guardianship would include medical treatment. There may be specific situations where it may be that the State — acting as steward for the body politic — might find that there is an overwhelming public health concern and/or inaction that would be tantamount to child abuse if certain procedures or treatments are denied a minor.

  59. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Interesting comment, Nicholas. I have noticed that some of the people who are most sure of themselves that everyone should be vaccinated don’t have their own children. Let me try to explain the dynamic of why that makes a difference.

    NOTHING an prepare someone for the moment they look at that little face, and know that what kind of life that child will have largely depends on you. We can argue nature vs. nurture, and so on–but that’s not the point I’m trying to make here. Your responsiblity is to that individual and it will and should supercede anything you’ve believed until that point. Of course you care about the other kids around you, but they are not your responsiblity like that little sweetie in your arms.The whole birth process is truly miraculous, and it’s like nature has done all these things to make the birth of this individual to go smoothly. It’s scary to start putting needles into that baby.

    Don’t start yelling at me and calling me names. I’ve already told everyone I had my son vaccinated with no apparent problems. He was very healthy, however, and that was also before the tremeoudous quantity of vaccinations were given, at a shocking fast pace.

    Another thing is the fact that you start spending time with other parents. You pro-vaxxers can pooh-pooh this all you want, but the fact is there there are many heart-wrenching stories out there about vaccine-damaged kids. To spend time with an autistic or brain-damaged child is heart-breaking, and who am I to doubt it when the parent tells me his/her symptoms started within hours of their MMR shot?

    My point is that this really is not a black and white issue.

  60. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Also, I’ve had tremendous response from the request for opinions. Most of them have been from Libertarians or libertarians–almost a dozen! I have two Constitution Party and an IAP, plus the two Jed has posted here from his email requests. Thank you so much, Jed! I’ll be putting things together tomorrow. I’ll probably have a Part A & Part B: one for the libertarian view, and another from the other parties.

    I have yet to hear from a Green. Can anyone help with that? I wrote to Dr. Jill Stein, but have not heard back from her.

  61. paulie

    Jill, the other Jill is pretty busy at the moment. (It’s a Jill thing; you’d probably understand 🙂 )

    You might want to try Howie Hawkins, he responded to me pretty quickly on another issue when I emailed him recently.

  62. Andy

    “paulie
    February 6, 2015 at 1:09 pm

    I already linked that article and quite a few others earlier in this thread. Why did we need the full text of that one in particular here? Do I need to post the full text of all the other ones too?”

    I did not see it. I thought that the article was good enough, and relevant enough to the discussion, to where it merited a full posting.

  63. Joshua Katz

    >We can argue nature vs. nurture, and so on–but that’s not the point I’m trying to make here. >Your responsiblity is to that individual and it will and should supercede anything you’ve >believed until that point.

    That doesn’t imply, though, that this is right, just that it is. RC said that he’s not convinced, in all cases, that parents have the right to make decisions. He can be right or wrong, but the truth of his claim won’t depend on what emotions a parent feels looking at a child. In fact, intense emotions that can cloud judgment, such as needles being scary, are part of why someone might argue that parents can’t make this decision rationally (or other decisions, like blood transfusions – the emotional component of picturing your child in hell is not exactly rational.)

  64. Seymour Results

    I think mandatory vaccinations are a great idea. But wait, …hear me out!

    The conflict between the totalitarians and individualists should be “brought to a head.” If you try to force parents to do something that their child has a reasonable non-indication for, then go ahead and force that parent of the autistic child to get a vaccine they believe may kill or braindamage their child. …That’ll be the next “shot heard round the world.”

    Because the Libertarian Party refuses to conduct itself in a manner that is even vaguely threatening to the Democrats and Republicans who believe they own our asses from cradle to grave, perhaps open rebellion is the only pathway by which the average American idiot can be forced into asserting his rights.

    Something needs to be done soon, before Orwell’s agrarian utopia finally manifests itself among the American sheeple and the pigs they adore.

  65. Robert Capozzi

    jp: I have noticed that some of the people who are most sure of themselves that everyone should be vaccinated don’t have their own children. … My point is that this really is not a black and white issue.

    me: Agreed. Most issues are not b/w, including this one (mandated vaccines).

    I don’t have children, yet I have something of a perspective on the matter, though admittedly I don’t actually have a position on it. I’m mostly thinking through a serviceable principle for such matters…

    I am not a woman, yet I am pro-choice in the early months, but I think it’s also the case that the state should protect viable potential humans, which is more-or-less the Supremes’s conclusion.

    I am not African American, yet I recognize that aftermath of the horrors of chattel slavery continues, although progress has been made.

    I suspect that most have perspectives and positions on political matters that does not affect them directly. Should we stop having these, Mr. Chairman and Jill? If so, why?

    jk: part of why someone might argue that parents can’t make this decision rationally

    me: I would say, though, that cultural norms are a factor to be considered. I may be “rational” that EVERYONE should be vaccinated for at least some diseases, but when that crashes into, for ex., freedom of religion, the US collective bends to a variety of considerations. Sometimes, the outcome is sloppy and unclear.

  66. Robert Capozzi

    jp, thanks, it’s appreciated. Note that I said: “cultural norms are a factor to be considered.”

  67. Deran

    You don’t have to forvce parents to vaccinate. Just have laws/regs that make it illegal for unvacinated children to be present in places like schools, libraries, parks, anything that is operated by the government for the public. And all businesses should have the right to ban unvaccinated children from their premises.

    And parents that do not vaccinate should be legally liable for all costs associated with other shildren/people getting sick because of those adults decision not to vaccinate their child who then gets the measles etc. And strictly enforce all of that. I think that will motivate most adults to get their children vaccinated.

    It interests me that when you look at the city of Seattle. It is the neighborhoods that have the highest per household wealth and incomes that have the lowest vaccination rates in Seattle. I think rich people often have the mistaken idea that they know best about everything.

    I am a non-aligned socialist. I have been a periodic supporting member of the Peace and Freedom Party — supporting member is what non-California residents can do as far as membership in the P&FP)

  68. Joshua Katz

    JP – I’m not sure if that was directed at me, but if it was, I wasn’t trying to dismiss an attempt to help show your point of view – I was just indicating why I don’t think that point of view is necessarily definitive. For the record, I’m not all that sure of myself on universal vaccination – I don’t really see a good answer to this one, at least not yet.

    Deran – I’m a bit confused how public places and private places should restrict entry, if they choose, to the unvaccinated. As a practical matter, is Disney really going to ask its employees to check immunization records? Are we going to ask people to carry them around? Is Disney, having now created this expectation, going to be on the hook for damages if someone fakes an immunization record? Now, forget Disney – how about your local library?

    Also, simply restricting access seems to defeat the whole purpose. The immuno-compromised, who can’t get vaccines, would not be allowed into public places under your suggestion – unless we’re also going to train library staff not just to check vaccine records, but also to be able to identify exceptions. In that case, why bother restricting access in the first place? The whole problem someone usually wants to solve is the ability of immunocompromised people (and those too young to be vaccinated) to go to these places. It’s not helpful to just ban exactly those people from entering.

  69. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    My opinion was that both you and Capozzi were saying that, since emotions are involved, maybe parents shouldn’t be making the decisions about vaccinations. I couldn’t disagree more.

  70. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    RC said: “cultural norms are a factor to be considered.”

    Once again, I say that cultural norms are not my concern. My concern is doing the right thing as I see it, which may or may not be the “cultural norm”.

  71. Joshua Katz

    I meant to say that the fact that emotions are involved is not a strong argument for why the decision belongs to the parent; not that the fact that emotions are involved means the decision doesn’t belong to the parent. I think if you want to make the case that the decision belongs to parents alone, you need to make it independent of what a parent feels gazing at their child.

    In general, I think there are very few things that shouldn’t be left to parents when children are too young to exercise their own choice. The only exceptions are obvious harm to the child (I don’t think a parent has the right to prevent a life-saving blood transfusion – not because I think the government owns the child, but because the child has self-ownership, even if they can’t exercise it yet, and it tramples on their rights to allow the parent to kill them in the name of religion) and, possibly, cases where a third party can be harmed by a decision.

    I’m not married to the last one; I’m undecided on vaccinations. Sure, a parent has a unique responsibility to their child as opposed to the other children around. But those kids, including the one with an immune problem, have parents who feel exactly the same way about them. That’s exactly what law does – deal with conflicting claims, and you don’t expect the parent to make an entirely objective decision about the harm to other children from not putting a needle in theirs for the reasons you cited.

    Sitting comfortably in my house, I can assess the ethics of the proper thing to do if someone puts a gun to my head and threatens to kill me unless I kill 2 other innocent people (assuming I can’t fight them off.) I would probably behave differently in the actual scenario, though. Which answer is ‘right?’ Neither, both…they’re different sorts of answers.

  72. Robert Capozzi

    jp: Once again, I say that cultural norms are not my concern. My concern is doing the right thing as I see it, which may or may not be the “cultural norm”.

    me: You DO see the problem here, yes? “The right thing” is not something etched in stone.

    Charles Manson thought he was doing the “right thing,” after all.

    The cultural norm is to allow wide latitude for parental guardianship. Some might gaze into her boy’s eyes and decide to buy him a tutu and make him a ballerina. Or gaze into his girl’s eyes and buy her Tonka trucks.

    It’s entirely possible that I simply cannot understand your POV because I am not a parent. OTOH, over the years have we not all seen some really crazy things that parents do. We see instances in the news all the time.

  73. Guess what

    Interesting that the “socialist” wants to put more liability on unvaccinated individuals but has nothing to say about the 1986 law exempting pharmaceutical corporations from from all liability for vaccine injuries. Why not agitate for repealing that fascist corporate-welfare policy? Holding people liable while giving corporations a free pass would seem to be contrary to socialist ethics, no?

  74. langa

    I agree that IF government-run schools are going to exist (which I obviously disagree with), they should be allowed to take reasonable steps to protect the health of the students, and if that includes requiring vaccinations, then so be it. Hopefully, parents who disagree will remove their children from the “public” school system.

    As for the totally separate question of whether vaccinations should be mandatory (i.e. whether there should be fines or punishments for not getting yourself or your child vaccinated), the libertarian answer is obviously a resounding NO. Requiring vaccinations would be no different than banning unprotected sex, on the grounds of “protecting” potential sex partners from STDs. Life involves risk. If you are so terrified of the slim possibility of getting a disease, perhaps you should seal yourself in a bubble, like the kid on the old “Seinfeld” episode did.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SULQSL4Cd0

  75. Robert Capozzi

    l: Requiring vaccinations would be no different than banning unprotected sex, on the grounds of “protecting” potential sex partners from STDs. Life involves risk.

    me: Yes, life DOES INDEED involve risk. “No different,” though, seems quite false to me. Sex between 2 people is different than walking around with a communicable disease that is transferred through far less intimate contact.

    Take the extreme case. Say someone has Ebola or something like it. Is it appropriate for the community to isolate someone with such a disease, as that person could represent a risk to all he or she comes in contact with? I’d say, quite possibly.

    To be clear, I don’t advocate mandating vaccinations for all necessarily. In fact, I’m heavily biased against doing so. But I am open to the possibility, depending on the severity of the disease, its communicability, etc.

    But I certainly do advocate Nonarchy Pods as an out, should someone refuse to play by the rules of civil society.

  76. Robert Capozzi

    more…

    Come to think of it, if the Ebola patient refuses to be isolated, perhaps the appropriate response is to make HIM or HER a “bubble boy” or “bubble girl.” In a sense, that might take the place of a Nonarchy Pod!!! 😉

  77. Martin Passoli

    “Interesting that the “socialist” wants to put more liability on unvaccinated individuals but has nothing to say about the 1986 law exempting pharmaceutical corporations from from all liability for vaccine injuries. Why not agitate for repealing that fascist corporate-welfare policy? Holding people liable while giving corporations a free pass would seem to be contrary to socialist ethics, no?”

    I would think so. It’s contrary to libertarian ethics as well. Any such law should be repealed.

  78. langa

    Take the extreme case. Say someone has Ebola or something like it. Is it appropriate for the community to isolate someone with such a disease, as that person could represent a risk to all he or she comes in contact with? I’d say, quite possibly.

    That just demonstrates the inherent flaws of the idea of “public” property. Exactly who gets to decide? If all property were privately owned, it would be quite easy to isolate such a person on their own property (provided that no one else wanted them around) without any rights violation.

  79. paulie

    True, although that could be taken too far – say, isolating people based on a wave of unjustified panic. Suppose for example you were someone who “looked middle eastern” in a small town/rural area with few or no other such people and 9/11 just happened. Or say you are the only openly gay person, or one of the very few, in such a community just after the initial outbreak of AIDS where it was being called “GRID (gay related infectious disease”). You could likewise be isolated, effectively imprisoned.

    I think public easement to leave your own property has to be built in to any workable idea of property right, otherwise someone could literally buy up all the property around you and imprison you by not allowing you to cross their property in any direction to leave your home.

  80. langa

    True, although that could be taken too far – say, isolating people based on a wave of unjustified panic. Suppose for example you were someone who “looked middle eastern” in a small town/rural area with few or no other such people and 9/11 just happened. Or say you are the only openly gay person, or one of the very few, in such a community just after the initial outbreak of AIDS where it was being called “GRID (gay related infectious disease”). You could likewise be isolated, effectively imprisoned.

    That’s certainly possible, although if it started happening frequently, I imagine some enterprising person would start a business to “rescue” these people. The problem might also be addressed through the courts (or arbitration agencies, or whatever).

    I think public easement to leave your own property has to be built in to any workable idea of property right, otherwise someone could literally buy up all the property around you and imprison you by not allowing you to cross their property in any direction to leave your home.

    That’s certainly possible in theory, but I doubt it would happen very often (if ever), due to the large costs, which, unlike in the current system, wouldn’t be socialized. You would have to have a hell of a grudge against someone to go to that much trouble and expense just to torment them.

  81. paulie

    I don’t know how rare it would be. There are a lot of assholes with money. You might also see people pool resources to fuck with other people they don’t like. You may be right, but I don’t know. I’d like some movement in that direction, and maybe going full tilt will be better than what we have now, but jumping in the deep end would come with its own set of problems.

  82. Zeleni

    This Green is pro-vaccination and generally supportive of measures to require them. There was a a time (nearly fifteen years ago) when I was critical of vaccines because autism, mercury, yaddayadda. But that’s been debunked and I now yield to science. Not vaccinating not only puts that child at risk, but younger children and others with compromised immune system. At a bare minimum, if you want your child to attend a public school, they should be required to have their vaccines (except for medical issues as raised by physician). It appears that most Greens agree:

    http://www.isidewith.com/poll/759548534/962376

  83. Zeleni

    I recently became a parent and my position on this issue strengthened. I can’t imagine my daughter suffering from my neglect to properly provide her with medical care. And I get upset thinking about the vulnerability of her non-vaccinated friends and her own vulnerability caused by other parents’ disregard for logic and science.

  84. Mark Herd

    This probably is too late but im just now catching up on posts. I believe vaccines are important. I was vaccinated as a kid and it worked. I also had a doctor, whose friend, also a doctor didnt fare as well. On this issue I believe its the right of every individual to decide for themselves what they want to put in their bodies.

  85. Robert Capozzi

    pf: I think public easement to leave your own property has to be built in to any workable idea of property right

    me: Talk to us about this more, please. Sounds like this is a back-door entry of a — oh, no! — a State! Enforcing an easement sounds like a monopoly power dictating terms of how private property is to be used.

    If not, why not?

  86. paulie

    I don’t see any reason why enforcement of such a property right, if it is recognized, has to be monopolized, any more than enforcement of any other property right or other right. I believe the idea originally comes from unwritten common law as it evolved over the ages.

  87. Robert Capozzi

    What entity ENFORCES common law and easements?

    If a property owner sez, Hell no, no stinking easements on MY property, I don’t give a f*ck about “evolved, unwritten common law.”

  88. paulie

    The same entities that enforce other laws. I’ve given you plenty of links before so I’m sure that if you actually want to know you would have read them, or are at least as capable as I am of finding them.

  89. Robert Capozzi

    pf: The same entities that enforce other laws.

    me: The pursuit of truth is never a waste of time. Still, I ask a VERY simple question, and you point me to vagueness that doesn’t answer the question.

    “Entities” may or may not enforce law, but even if competing “entities” might want to enforce easements, it strikes me that if a property owner doesn’t want to play, the entity or entities would have to initiate force to enforce the law.

    You apparently are OK with such force initiation.

    Or you somehow believe that not providing easements is itself a kind of force initiation.

    It all seems so basic, and I have too much respect for your intellect that you cannot answer this most basic question. What other conclusion can I arrive at then that you have no answer, that your polycentrism is full of holes.

    Sorry to be so harsh….

  90. paulie

    Fuck. I had a feeling it was a mistake to get drawn into this.

    The pursuit of truth is never a waste of time

    I have lots of other things to do that I am woefully behind on. Find someone else to play with.

    Or you somehow believe that not providing easements is itself a kind of force initiation.

    Exactly.

    There’s nothing vague about the information I gave you links to. If you actually want to know the answers to your questions just go there and start reading. If your intention is to make me play verbal games, no, I am way too busy, way too far behind on too many other things, and already spending a lot more time than I should be on this just by composing this reply.

    It all seems so basic, and I have too much respect for your intellect that you cannot answer this most basic question. What other conclusion can I arrive at then that you have no answer

    I have plenty of answers and could spend many hours going back and forth giving them to you. What I don’t have is the time to devote to this. I have other things I need to attend to, plain and simple.

    I doubt you’ll actually spend much time digging thru the links. I only put them there in case others who are reading care to actually find the answers to your questions, which are explored in a lot of detail there and elsewhere.

    Now you have made me even more behind on other things than I already was, and I am done with this tangent.

  91. Robert Capozzi

    me: Or you somehow believe that not providing easements is itself a kind of force initiation.

    pf: Exactly.

    me: Well, THAT’s certainly interesting. But if one polycentric institution requires easements and another does not, what do we have: The Hatfields and the McCoys?

    And then there are the property owners who operate toll roads. In the post-Frankel Singularity anarchist world, is it illegal to operate toll roads? Easements and toll roads don’t mix too well, yes?

    I do feel your time-management pain, but the deflections and pointing to scads of non-specific sources (rather than specific answers to my easily answered questions) feels like you might be protesting too much.

  92. paulie

    No, more information on polycentric law in general. You can learn about easements elsewhere. As I said, I have other things I need to do, and I think you are capable of finding the information you are looking for. I’ve read it before, I don’t have links handy and I don’t have time to find them again.

  93. Robert Capozzi

    from AnCap 101:

    Q So can I legitimately charge Joe every time he needs to cross my property?
    A Sure. Again, this depends on the agreements between you and him.

    Q Is this a voluntary transaction or exploitative?
    A Can’t it be both?

    Q Can I legitimately forbid Joe from crossing my property, effectively trapping him on his property?
    A Again, the answer is a definite maybe.

  94. paulie

    Dunno what site you are quoting, or more likely making things up, but none of that is anything like what I believe. I’m not an anything “cap,” my views of property rights are a lot more nuanced, and I do not have time to explain them now or anytime soon. Try c4ss also. Thanks for suckering me into misusing the time I planned to put into posting new articles here today.

  95. paulie

    Oh. A comment at a subreddit. Got it. Sorry for guessing incorrectly it may have been something you made up. Anyway it’s not my ideology.

  96. Beth Duensing

    I wonder why so many Libertarians insist that it is a woman’s right to choose when it comes to abortion, yet are outraged when someone wants that same right to choose whether to vaccinate (inject toxins) or not vaccinate.

    A link to a compilation of now 97 research papers showing a link between vaccines and autism: http://www.scribd.com/doc/220807175/86-Research-Papers-Supporting-the-Vaccine-Autism-Link

    And, a court ruling that vaccines cause autism in Italy
    http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/u-s-media-blackout-italian-courts-rule-vaccines-cause-autism/

  97. Beth Duensing

    This letter was sent to a principal that was kicking out unvaccinated kids from a school in Michigan. The letter was written by and the list of vaccine research and resources was compiled by Mary Tocco, Director of Vaccine Research for Michigan Opposing Mandatory Vaccines.

    Dear Principal,

    I am very sad to hear that you are discriminating against parents who have made informed vaccine decisions that are different from yours. As Americans we have the right to choose the form of “healthcare” we want to use to promote the health of our families. This is a huge media propaganda scheme and you are either part of the solution or you are the problem.
    Everyone I grew up with had measles, chickenpox, mumps and other normal childhood illnesses and NO ONE DIED!
    By reacting like you are, you are admitting that vaccines fail to protect!
    You are in a position of influence where you are accountable for what you demand of others.
    What if you are wrong? Here are peer reviewed journal scientific research articles about the dangers of vaccines. If you are ethical and honest, you will look these over and consider the other side of this issue.
    1. Over and again, the media sadly misstates that the autism/vaccine debate is due to one faulty research paper that was released years ago and then retracted. Well, they are all sadly mistaken. Here is a collection of 96 peer-reviewed articles linking vaccines to neurodevelopmental delay http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/…/no-evidence-of-any…
    2. Then consider that our government has compensated at least 83 cases of autism from vaccine injury: http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/859234
    3. And that finally the Italian court was brave enough to rule in a landmark case that vaccines caused autism Recent Italian Court Decisions on Vaccines and Autism – AGE OF AUTISM
    4. Also, it is said that the “anti-vaccine” viewpoint is unscientific and unsubstantiated. Here is another collection of about 100 peer-reviewed, published medical papers, all indicating that vaccines are indeed detrimental to health: http://www.cmsri.org/published-research/
    5. The outbreaks of measles are always blamed on the unvaccinated. However, the science shows time and again that the real problem is the ineffectiveness of the measles vaccines.
    Measles Outbreaks in Highly Vaccinated Populations (there are many more)
    http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/conte…/…/2014/02/27/cid.ciu105
    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000359.htm
    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/…/peds.2009-1653.abst…
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2230232
    http://www.eurosurveillance.org/…/dy…/EE/V18N49/art20649.pdf
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3821823
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3618578
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2627963/
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3255929/
    6. Furthermore, the failure our US Measles Program was confirmed in 2012 by Dr. Poland, Professor of Medicine and founder and leader of Mayo Clinic’s Vaccine Research Group) The Re-Emergence of Measles in Developed Countries:Time to Develop the Next-Generation Measles Vaccines?
    He said, “I’m no anti-vaxxer but the measles vaccine can’t prevent outbreaks, it is a dud.”
    7. Outbreaks of Various Infectious Illnesses in Highly Vaccinated Populations: http://www.vaccinationnews.org/…/outbreaks_in_highly_vaccin…
    8. Recipients of Acellular Pertussis Vaccine Spread Disease http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24277828
    (people who get the vaccine are carriers and can spread the disease)
    9. Recent Pertussis Outbreak, All Fully Vaccinated http://boston.cbslocal.com/…/whooping-cough-outbreak-on-ca…/
    Facts: Last 10 years there have been 1,564 measles cases in the US and 0 deaths.
    The Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VEARS) has reported 83 deaths and paid out hundred of thousands in damages.
    Mercury (thimerosal, ethylmercury) and vaccinations leading to autism:
    1. “Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health 2007 With no warning, recall, or ban of mercury in vaccines and other drugs as of yet, the victim of this mandated, unwarranted, and massive mercury exposure is still an unsuspecting public, and most especially its unborn and newborn children.”
    2. 2008 – International Journal of Risk & Safety in Medicine -Autism “Biological findings in autism that are consistent with mercury poisoning include elevated oxidative stress, depleted levels of glutathione, neuro-chemical irregularities, gastro-intestinal distress, immune dysregulation and generalized and neural inflammation. All of these are also well documented effects of mercury poisoning and, specifically, mercury poisoning in infants … Autism is a modern disease. The existing scientific literature provides grounds for strong suspicion that mercury plays a causal role in the development of autism. Health authorities worldwide should move without hesitation to ban and remove all mercury in all medical products at the earliest possible date.”
    3. 2009 – Behavioral and Brain Functions – “A disruption of the glutathione system by mercury leads to GSH depletion and cell destruction. .. Glutathione depletion is linked to several neurodegenerative disorders.”
    4. 2009 – NeuroToxicology – None-the-less, the developing brain is considered the most vulnerable organ to mercury exposure, it is possible that exposure to ethyl mercury may adversely affect the emerging brainstem function … trace + trace + trace = toxic exposure
    5. EPA estimates- 1 in 6 children (up to 630,000 children per year) born in US has unsafe blood levels of mercury at birth (Mahaffey, 2004) These levels are high enough to cause a decline in IQ at an estimated annual cost of 8.7 billion (Trasande, 2005)
    Vaccines causing Demyelination (seizures and brain injury)
    1. Herroelen, L et al, “Central-Nervous-System Demyelination After Immunization with Recombinant Hepatitis B Vaccine”, Lancet, Nov 9, 1991, 338(8776):1174-1175.
    2.Kaplanski G, Retornaz F, Durand J, Soubeyrand J, “Central nervous system demyelination after vaccination against hepatitis B and HLA haplotype.” J Neurol Neurosurg Psychiatry 1995 Jun; 58(6):758-759.
    3.Matyszak MK, Perry VH, “Demyelination in the central nervous system following a delayed-type hypersensitivity response to bacillus Calmette-Guerin.” Neuroscience 1995 Feb;64(4):967-977.
    4. Tornatore CS, Richert JR, “CNS demyelination associated with diploid cell rabies vaccine.” Lancet 1990 Jun 2;335(8701):1346-1347.
    5.Adams, JM et al, “Neuromyelitis Optica: Severe Demyelination Occurring Years After Primary Smallpox Vaccinations”, Rev Roum Neurol, 1973, 10:227-231.
    Vaccines and Sudden Death Syndrome (SIDS)
    1. Na, “DPT Vaccination and Sudden Infant Death – Tennessee, US Dept HEW, MMWR Report, Mar 23, 1979, vol 28(11): 132.
    2. Arevalo, “Vaccinia Necrosum. Report on a Fatal Case”, Bol Ofoc Sanit Panamer, Aug 1967, 63:106-110.
    3. Connolly, J H, Dick, G W, Field, CM, “A Case of Fatal Progressive Vaccinia”, Brit Med Jour, 12 May 1962; 5288:1315-1317.
    4. Aragona, F, “Fatal Acute Adrenal Insufficiency Caused by Bilateral Apoplexy of the Adrenal Glands (WFS) following Anti-poliomyelitis Vaccination”, Minerva Medicolegale, Aug 1960; 80:167-173.
    5. Moblus, G et al, “Pathological-Anatomical Findings in Cases of Death Following Poliomyelitis and DPT Vaccination”, Dtsch Gesundheitsw, Jul 20, 1972, 27:1382-1386.
    6. NA, “Immunizations and Cot Deaths”, Lancet, Sept 25, 1982, np.
    7. Goetzeler, A, “Fatal Encephalitis after Poliomyelitis Vaccination”, 22 Jun 1961, Muenchen Med Wschr, 102:1419-1422.
    8. Fulginiti, V, “Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, Diphtheria-Tetanus Toxoid-Pertussis Vaccination and Visits to the Doctor: Chance Association or Cause and Effect?”, Pediatr Infect Disorder, Jan-Feb 1983, 2(1): 7-11.
    Vaccines and Diabetes:
    1. Sinaniotis, et al, “Diabetes Mellitus after Mumps Vaccination”, Arc Dis Child, 1975, 50:749.66
    2. Polster, H, “Diabetes insipidus after Smallpox vaccination”, Z Aerztl Fortbild (Jena), 1 Apr 1966, 60:429-432.
    3. Patan, “Postvaccinal Severe Diabetes Mellitus”, Ter Arkh, Jul 1968, 40:117-118.
    4. Classen, JB, MD, “The Timing of Immunization Affects The Development of Diabetes in Rodents”, Autoimmunity, 1996, 24:137-145.
    5. Classen JB, “The diabetes epidemic and the hepatitis B vaccines,” N Z Med J, 109(1030):366 1996 Sep 27. [letter]
    6. Classen JB, “Childhood immunisation and diabetes mellitus,” N Z Med J, 109(1022):195 1996 May 24 [letter]
    7. Poutasi K, ” Immunisation and diabetes,” N Z Med J 1996 Jul 26;109(1026):283. [letter; comment]
    8. Dokheel, T M, “An Epidemic of Childhood Diabetes in the United States? Evidence from ….”, Diabetes Care, 1993, 16:1606-1611.
    9. Parent ME, et al, “Bacille Calmette-Guerin vaccination and incidence of IDDM in Montreal, Canada,” Diabetes Care 1997 May; 20(5):767-772.
    10. House DV, Winter WE, “Autoimmune diabetes. The role of auto-antibody markers in the prediction and prevention of insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus,” Clin Lab Med 1997 Sep; 17(3):499-545.
    11. Zeigler, M et al , “[Autoantibodies in type 1 diabetes mellitus]” Z Arztl Fortbild (Jena). 1994 Aug; 88(7-8):561-5
    Vaccines and Deafness:
    1. Kaga, “Unilateral Total Loss of Auditory and Vestibular Function as a Complication of Mumps Vaccination”, Int J Ped Oto, Feb 1998, 43(1):73-73
    2. Nabe-Nielsen, Walter, “Unilateral Total Deafness as a Complication of the Measles- Mumps- Rubella Vaccination”, Scan Audio Suppl, 1988, 30:69-70
    3. Hulbert, et al, “Bilateral Hearing Loss after Measles and Rubella Vaccination in an Adult”, NEJM, 1991 July, 11;325(2):134
    4. Healy, “Mumps Vaccine and Nerve Deafness”, Am J Disorder Child, 1972 Jun; 123(6):612
    5. Jayarajan, Sedler, “Hearing Loss Following Measles Vaccination”, J Infect, 1995 Mar; 30(2):184-185
    6. Pialoux, P et al, “Vaccinations and Deafness”, Ann Otolaryng (Paris), Dec 1963, 80:1012-1013.
    7. Angerstein, W, et al, “Solitary Hearing and Equilibrium Damage After Vaccinations”, Gesundheitswesen, May 1995, 57(5): 264-268.
    8. Brodsky, Stanievich, “Sensorineural Hearing Loss Following Live Measles Virus Vaccination”, Int J Ped Oto, 1985 Nov; 10(2):159-163
    9. Koga, et al, “Bilateral Acute Profound Deafness After MMR Vaccination- Report of a Case”, Nippon Jibiin Gakkai Kai, 1991 Aug;94(8):1142-5
    10. Seiferth, LB, “Deafness after Oral Poliomyelitis Vaccination – a Case Report and Review”, HNO, 1977 Aug; 25(8): 297-300
    11. Pantazopoulos, PE, “Perceptive Deafness Following Prophylactic use of Tetanus anittoxin”, Laryngoscope, Dec 1965, 75:1832-1836.
    12. Zimmerman, W, “Observation of a case of Acute Bilateral Hearing Impairment Following Preventive Poliomyelitis Vaccination (type 3)”, Arch Ohr Nas Kehlkopfheilk, 1965, 185:723-725.
    Vaccines and Encephalopathy (Brain inflammation/injury):
    1. Iwasa, S et al, “Swelling of the Brain in Mice Caused by Pertussis … Quantitative Determination and the Responsibility of the Vaccine”, Jpn J Med Sci Biol, 1985 , 38(2):53-65.
    2. Mathur R, Kumari S, “Bulging fontanel following triple vaccine.” Indian Pediatr 1981 Jun;18(6):417-418.
    3. Barry W, Lenney W, Hatcher G, “Bulging fontanelles in infants without meningitis.” Arch Dis Child 1989 Apr;64(4):635-636.
    4. Shendurnikar N, “Bulging fontanel following DPT” Indian Pediatr 1986 Nov;23(11):960.
    5. Gross TP, Milstien JB, Kuritsky JN, “Bulging fontanelle after immunization with diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis vaccine and diphtheria-tetanus vaccine.” J Pediatr 1989 Mar;114(3):423-425.
    6. Jacob J, Mannino F, “Increased intracranial pressure after diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis immunization.” Am J Dis Child 1979 Feb;133(2):217-218.
    7. Dugmore, WN, “Bilateral Oedema at the Posterior Pole. Hypersensitivity Reaction to Alavac P injection.” Br J Ophthalmol, Dec 1972, 55:848-849.
    Vaccines and Kidney Disease:
    1. Jacquot, C et al, “Renal Risk in Vaccination”, Nouv Presse Med, Nov 6, 1982, 11(44):3237-3238.
    2. Giudicelli, et al, “Renal Risk in Vaccination”, Presse Med, Jun 11, 1982, 12(25):1587-1590.
    3. Tan, SY, et al, “Vaccine Related Glomerulonephritis”, BMJ, Jan 23, 1993, 306(6872):248.
    4. Pillai, JJ, et al, “Renal Involvement in Association with Post-vaccination Varicella”, Clin Infect Disorder, Dec 1993, 17(6): 1079-1080.
    5. Eisinger, AJ et al, “Acute Renal Failure after TAB and Cholera Vaccination”, B Med J, Feb 10, 1979, 1(6160):381-382.
    6. Silina, ZM, et al, “Causes of Postvaccinal Complications in the Kidneys in Young Infants”, Pediatria, Dec 1978, (12):59-61.
    7. Na, “Albuminurias”, Concours Med, Mar 1964, 85:5095-5098. [vaccination adverse reactions]
    8. Oyrl, A, et al, “Can Vaccinations Harm the Kidney?”, Clin Nephrol, 1975, 3(5):204-205.
    9. Mel’man Nia, “[Renal lesions after use of vaccines and sera].” Vrach Delo 1978 Oct;(10):67-9, [Article in Russian]
    10. Silina ZM, Galaktionova TIa, Shabunina NR, “[Causes of postvaccinal complications in the kidneys in young infants].” Pediatriia 1978 Dec;(12):59-61, [Article in Russian]
    11. Silina EM, et al, “[Some diseases of the kidneys in children during the 1st year of life, following primary smallpox vaccination and administration of pertusis-diphtheria-tetanus vaccine].” Vopr Okhr Materin Det 1968 Mar; 13(3):79-80, [Article in Russian]
    Vaccines and Lymphoma (cancer)
    1. Bichel, “Post-vaccinial Lymphadenitis Developing into Hodgkin’s Disease”, Acta Med Scand, 1976, Vol 199, p523-525.
    2. Stewart, AM, et al, “Aetiology of Childhood Leukaemia”, Lancet, 16 Oct, 1965, 2:789-790. [Listed under Vaccine Adverse Reactions.]
    3. Glathe, H et al, “Evidence of Tumorigenic Activity of Candidate Cell Substrate in Vaccine Production by the Use of Anti-Lymphocyte Serum”, Development Biol Std, 1977, 34:145-148.
    4. Bolognesi, DP, “Potential Leukemia Virus Subunit Vaccines: Discussion”, Can Research, Feb 1976, 36(2 pt 2):655-656.
    5. Colon, VF, et al, “Vaccinia Necrosum as a Clue to Lymphatic Lymphoma”, Geriatrics, Dec 1968, 23:81-82.
    6. Park-Dincsoy, H et al, “Lymphoid Depletion in a case of Vaccinia Gangrenosa”, Laval Med, Jan 1968, 39:24-26.
    7. Hugoson, G et al, “The Occurrence of Bovine Leukosis Following the Introduction of Babesiosis Vaccination”, Bibl Haemat, 1968, 30:157-161.
    8. Hartstock, , “”Post-vaccinial Lymphadenitis: Hyperplasia of Lymphoid Tissue That Simulates Malignant Lymphomas”, Apr 1968, Cancer, 21(4):632-649.
    9. Allerberger, F, “An Outbreak of Suppurative Lymphadenitis Connected with BCG Vaccination in Austria- 1990/1991,” Am Rev Respir Disorder, Aug 1991, 144(2) 469.
    10. Omokoku B, Castells S, “Post-DPT inoculation cervical lymphadenitis in children.” N Y State J Med 1981 Oct;81(11):1667-1668.
    Vaccines and Seizures – Convulsions:
    1. Hirtz DG, Nelson KB, Ellenberg J H, “Seizures following childhood immunizations”, Pediatr 1983 Jan; 102(1):14-18.
    2. Cherry JD, Holtzman AE, Shields WD, Buch D, Nielsen, “Pertussis immunization and characteristics related to first seizures in infants and children,”J Pediatr 1993 Jun;122(6):900-903.
    3. Coplan J, “Seizures following immunizations,” J Pediatr 1983 Sep;103(3):496.
    4. Barkin RM, Jabhour JT, Samuelson J S, “Immunizations, seizures, and subsequent evaluation,” JAMA 1987 Jul 10;258(2):201.
    5. Griffin MR, et al, “Risk of seizures after measles-mumps-rubella immunization,” Pediatrics 1991 Nov;88(5):881-885.
    6. Griffin MR, et al, “Risk of seizures and encephalopathy after immunization with the diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis vaccine,” JAMA 1990 Mar 23-30;263(12):1641-1645.
    7. Cizewska S, Huber Z, Sluzewski W, “[Prophylactic inoculations and seizure activity in the EEG],” Neurol Neurochir Pol 1981 Sep-Dec;15(5-6):553-557. [Article in Polish]
    8. Huttenlocher PR, Hapke RJ, “A follow-up study of intractable seizures in childhood.” Ann Neurol 1990 Nov; 28(5):699-705.
    9. Blumberg DA, “Severe reactions associated with diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis vaccine: detailed study of children with seizures, hypotonic-hypo-responsive episodes, high fevers, and persistent crying.”Pediatrics 1993 Jun; 91(6):1158-1165.
    10. Prensky AL, et al, “History of convulsions and use of pertussis vaccine,” J Pediatr 1985 Aug; 107(2):244-255.
    11. Baraff LJ, “Infants and children with convulsions and hypotonic-hypo-responsive episodes following diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis immunization: follow-up evaluation,” Pediatrics 1988 Jun; 81(6):789-794.
    12. Jacobson V, “Relationship of pertussis immunization to the onset of epilepsy, febrile convulsions and central nervous system infections: a retrospective epidemiologic study,” Tokai J Exp Clin Med 1988;13 Suppl: 137-142.
    13. Cupic V,et al, “[Role of DTP vaccine in the convulsive syndromes in children],” Lijec Vjesn 1978 Jun; 100(6):345-348. [Article in Serbo-Croatian (Roman)]
    14. Pokrovskaia NIa, “[Convulsive syndrome in DPT vaccination (a clinico-experimental study)],” Pediatriia 1983 May;(5):37-39. [Article in Russian]
    15. Ballerini, Ricci, B, et al, “On Neurological Complications of Vaccination, With Special Reference to Epileptic Syndromes,” Riv Neurol, Jul-Aug 1973, 43:254-258.
    16. Wolf SM, Forsythe A, “Epilepsy and mental retardation following febrile seizures in childhood,” Acta Paediatr Scand 1989 Mar;78(2):291-295.
    Vaccines and Skin Disorders:
    1. Illingsworth R, “Skin rashes after triple vaccine,” Arch Dis Child 1987 Sep; 62(9):979.
    2. Lupton GP, “Discoid lupus erythematosus occurring in a smallpox vaccination scar,” J Am Acad Dermatol, 1987 Oct; 17(4):688-690.
    3. Kompier, A J, “Some Skin Diseases caused by Vaccinia Virus [Smallpox],” Ned Milt Geneesk T, 15:149-157, May 1962.
    4. Weber, G et al, “Skin Lesions Following Vaccinations,” Deutsch Med Wschr, 88:1878-1886, S7 Sept 1963.
    5. Copeman, P W, “Skin Complications of Smallpox Vaccination,” Practitioner, 197:793-800, Dec 1966.
    6. Denning, DW, et al, “Skin Rashes After Triple Vaccine,” Arch Disorder Child, May 1987, 62(5): 510-511.

    This list was compiled by Mary Tocco, Director of Vaccine Research for Michigan Opposing Mandatory Vaccines, to help those who are blind-sided by all the propaganda in the media, deceived by the CDC, the Institute of Medicine and the American Pediatric Association. You have my permission to copy and share with every parent you know so that we can stop the criminal acts of violence on our citizens.

  98. paulie

    Also, in case you or anyone else didn’t know, the automated spam filter automatically holds up all comments that have more than one link per comment. There’s a way to adjust that, but I no longer have the requisite authority level to do it.

  99. Robert Capozzi

    bd: I wonder why so many Libertarians insist that it is a woman’s right to choose when it comes to abortion, yet are outraged when someone wants that same right to choose whether to vaccinate (inject toxins) or not vaccinate.

    me: Let’s unpack this. I’ve not seen any L who is “outraged” about vaccination choice. Who would they be?

    The obvious difference between abortion choice and vaccination choice is that the former directly involves one person and one potential person. Contagious disease involves many more.

    Even pro-choicers have a range of nuance. First-term abortion rights, most pro-choicers would say, is different from late-term abortions.

    Miss the nuance, miss these issues entirely.

  100. redphillips

    Thomas Sowell comes down on the side of vaccine mandates. While he is evenhanded with the science, his implicit endorsement of vaccine mandates is disappointing, as Sowell has always been viewed as a more libertarianish conservative than many.

    http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2015/02/10/measles-vaccines-and-autism-n1954967

    While Sowell is evenhanded with the science, I do think a case can be made that there has been an increase in Autism that isn’t just definitional. And it is perfectly reasonable to believe that this increase could be related to some sort of environmental toxin, but this toxin doesn’t have to be vaccines.

  101. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    The most stunning thing about the whole project of mine to study alternate parties and the question of mandatory vaccines, was the amount of Libertarians and libertarians who thought they should be mandatory. What was even more surprising was how strident (and nasty sometimes) they could be.

  102. Pingback: Should Vaccines Be Mandatory? Views from Alternate Party Members | Independent Political Report

  103. Pingback: Mary Tocco: Letter to Principal About Vaccinations | The Saturnalian

  104. Pingback: Should Vaccines Be Mandatory? Views From Alternate Party Members » The Crow

  105. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    This is the long talked-about newsletter project for the Libertarian Party of Los Angeles. It’s only been started this week by Jonathan Jaech.

  106. Felicia

    “The suffering of vaccine-injured children is no different from those who suffer from the complications of infectious disease, except the lives of the vaccine-injured are dismissed as acceptable losses. And their families are persecuted by those who do not want to see or hear about what vaccines are doing to our children.

    “When the state considers ONE of us to be expendable, then we are ALL considered expendable.” ~Barbara Loe Fisher, president of the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC)

    Powerful speech by BLF last week: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCg7ph1_W0k

  107. George Phillies

    Antivaxxers are even crazier than 9/11 truthers.

    Have you had relatives die of smallpox recently? How about polio? No, vaccines are not 100% safe. But they are far safer than the alternative.

    An unvaccinated child is a direct threat to the health and safety of the children around him. Yes, the neighboring children may have been vaccinated, but most vaccines do not offer 100% immunity. They don’t need to, because vaccination of enough children stops the extensive spread of disease. But if you have an non-immunized infected child, some of the children around him are not completely protected, and may get sick or die as a result. Furthermore, some children have limited immune responses, cannot be vaccinated successfully.

  108. Andy

    “George Phillies

    October 30, 2015 at 9:08 pm

    Antivaxxers are even crazier than 9/11 truthers.”

    So people who question the government, an institution which is known for lying, are crazy? I think that it is the other way around, as in people who believe official government stories without question are the crazy ones.

  109. Matt Cholko

    I agree with you there Andy, in that one is crazy to trust the government line.

    I also agree with George, in that vaccination is very important. Denying that obvious (extensively evidenced) truth is ridiculous, reckless, and just plain stupid.

  110. steve m

    “So people who question the government, an institution which is known for lying, are crazy?”

    In the case of whether certain vaccines, have saved large numbers of lives, yes that or stupid.

  111. JT

    The key word here is forced. Make no mistake, everyone will be forced, not only children. When they come to force you and your children if you have any – what will you do? Will you give in or resist? And if you will resist – how?

  112. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Thanks, JT. It never ceases to amaze me that people miss the true danger of this issue.

    Of course it’s just a matter of time before adults are required to have an untold amount iof toxins injected, too.

    Oh, and some of those horrible diseases started disappearing before vaccines. Why? Because hygiene in this country was significantly improved. Vaccines also probably helped, but neverthless, it really should be each parent’s choice for what they believe is right for their child.

  113. Kyle Kenley Kopitke

    Hi Jill,

    You have probably written your story by now, but I wanted to add my two cents. My Presidential Campaign website (PresidentKopitke2016.info) goes into my firm belief that Mandatory and Forced Vaccines are wrong. My son has Autism. The DHS Adult Vaccine is evil, and against our Beloved and Inspired Constitution. Please consider doing a story on my campaign. 810-424-0772/kylekoitke@gmail.com.

    Any who wants to stop Forced Vaccines; I sure need your help i collecting Signatures for Ballot Access in all 50 States. Please pray over it. We cannot stop Forced Vaccines in Congress; they are bought off; we have to stop it from the White House. As President Kopitke; I will.

    Praise Ye the Lord,
    Kyle
    http://presidentkopitke2016.blogspot.com/

  114. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Sure, Kyle, I’ll have a look at your campaign info. I appreciate your support. My only child, who is now 22, was not harmed by vaccines, but, of course, there were many less required when he was young. I learned a lot from my project about vaccines in February. I began assuming that vaccinations were mostly very good things, and was horrified to learn of the tremendous damage that was done to thousands of infants and young children. I also was shocked at the scientific info that documents the harm, yet people just pretend the science doesn’t exist. If nothing else, I recommend the vaccines be spaced out, and fewer given at the same time.

    I remember someone saying in February of this year on this site that vaccines would never become mandatory. Well, just a few months later, vaccines are mandatory for children who wish to attend school in CA.

    What party are you running for President with?

  115. George Phillies

    Andy’s claim that the evidence for efficacy of vaccines basically comes from (some unspecified) government makes the claims of antivaxxers look intelligent.

    Let us recall the success of variolation, which supposedly goes back to Cotton Mather and an African slave. If you caught smallpox as it existed at the time (the second version appeared in the 1890s) the death rate was 30-40%. If there was an epidemic, the likelihood of catching the disease, especially for an army in a camp, was large. Variolation, as practiced by George Washington on his army, reduced the likelihood of death to 1-2%, enormous progress.

  116. George Phillies

    Some years ago, antivaxxers were claiming that the mercurial agent used to stabilize pharmaceuticals was bad for you, in the level at which exposure occurred, was bad for people and caused autism. Quebec ended its use. The autism rate went up.

  117. Caryn Ann Harlos

    Larken Rose had a good post on vaccines today:

    ==I hardly ever talk about the vaccine thing, because I have almost no first-hand data or evidence to go on. That doesn’t stop most people from blabbing their opinions. But for all the conventional wisdom apologists, here is a lesson in basic logic:

    1) If your child got the MMR vaccine and DIDN’T get autism (which describes many millions of parents), then you have first hand evidence that that vaccine doesn’t ALWAYS cause autism (which no one is claiming anyway). However, if you extrapolate your own experience, or even the experiences of everyone you know, to everyone else, and therefore decide that it NEVER causes autism, you suck at logic and science.

    2) If your child got the MMR vaccine and DID get autism (and I personally know someone that happened to), that is NOT proof that the vaccine caused it. However, it’s certainly reasonable to WONDER if it might have caused it.

    3) Repeating what self-proclaimed “scientists” say is not the same as YOU being scientific. That’s usually you taking something on faith and then repeating it. Don’t pretend you “know” something because you heard a “scientist” ASSERT it.

    4) If you DIDN’T study something yourself, and DON’T have the raw data yourself, then you’re sort of stuck trying to decide who to BELIEVE. That isn’t science. That’s guessing. But while you’re guessing, here’s something to keep in mind: if someone asserts a conclusion that matches his own interests and agenda, then he MIGHT be biased. For example, if a scientist hired by Marlboro to do a study declares that smoking is perfectly healthy, you might want to be a tad skeptical. On the other hand, if someone comes out and says something that goes AGAINST his own interests, against his own prior statements, and is likely to cause trouble for himself, you should probably pay attention. Like, for example Dr. William Thompson, a senior CDC researcher who admits to having covered up evidence showing a link between African-American babies getting the MMR vaccine, and getting autism.

    5) If you understand the scientific process, you should also understand how freaking difficult it is to actually prove “A never causes B.” Unless you use all the relevant data on the planet, you have to study a bunch of data and extrapolate a pattern (or lack of pattern). In contrast, proving there IS a connection between A and B can be much easier. So before you say “science has proven there is no connection,” maybe learn how science actually works.

    (P.S. One more quick logic lesson. Thinking vaccinations are an awesome and hugely helpful invention/discovery–which I do–does not require you to assume that every vaccine must always be beneficial and risk-free for everyone everywhere.)===

    I am not an anti-vaxxer. I get flu shots. I am anti-making-it-mandatory.

  118. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I don’t consider myself an anti-vaxxer, either, but if I had a child now, I’d insist on spacing the vaccines out, and would opt out of a few of them completely (such as Gardisil). That seems to be the most common recommendation from many of us who have researched both sides.

    I have personally never had a flu shot, however. Oh, and i’ve NEVER had the flu. Our natural immune system is a wonderful thing.

  119. Caryn Ann Harlos

    I got very very sick from the flu a few years ago (got it twice, got both strains) and it convinced me to at least get the shot. I was given Tamiflu at that time, and it was horrid. It made me sicker than the flu. I have done a lot of reading on the Great Influenza Epidemic and it is terrifying. And most people are so ignorant that it even happened or the scope. The flu can be quite deadly.

    PS: I actually had Scarlet Fever as a child. Not very common. No reason to bring that up other than a point of trivia.

  120. Chuck Moulton

    I had chicken pox as a kid. Nowadays people are vaccinated for that. I don’t do flu vaccines. I get the flu about every 5 years.

    My dad was pre-vaccine for many things: he had polio (stuck laying on the kitchen table for 6 months), mumps, measles, etc.

  121. Caryn Ann Harlos

    I had chicken pox too but not badly. I was so sick with the flu last time it scared me into the fear of God.

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