Libertarian Mike Seebeck: I’m sick of the pro-vaccine BS!

Mike Seebeck

Mike Seebeck is a longtime libertarian activist and LP member for 15 years. He has served in several offices in the LP, including Southern Vice-Chair of LP-California, Media Director of LP-Colorado, Outreach and Media Director of LP-El Paso County (Colorado), and Treasurer of LP-Riverside County (California). In 2001 he was a local school board candidate and led the defeat of a $47M bond issue. He currently serves as the Bylaws guru and senior advisor to the LP-El Paso County. This essay has been posted in its entirety by permission of the author.

I’m Sick of the Pro-Vaccine BS!

March 3, 2015

It has to be written.

The mass hysterics and utter insanity that is polluting the airwaves and Internet over the measles outbreak from Disneyland has gone from shrill nonsense to utter ridiculousness. “If you don’t vaccinate you’re a bad parent or abusing your children!” “You only listen to Jenny McCarthy.” “The science is proven!” “Throw unvaccinating parents in jail!” “Segregate them from the rest of the population!” “You have no right to put my kids at risk!” The cacophony of stupidity goes on and on.

Well, guess what, folks: Not injecting poisons into kids is not abusing them, but doing so certainly can be thought of as abuse if it’s any poison not named a vaccine. I don’t listen to celebrities; I read FACTS. The science is not only unproven, but it borders on junk scientism because the alleged studies were done by the same companies producing the shots, with prepaid results and obvious conflicts of interest. Jail is a place for criminals, not honest people. Population segregation, or put another way, Jim Crow for medicine, is both immoral and unethical, not to mention unenforceable. Kids are at risk more from the toxic sludge in the vaccines than they are from most diseases, especially since most if not all of those vaccinated diseases, plus a few unvaccinated ones, had all but disappeared prior to the shots, primarily due to improvements in hygiene, sanitation, and nutrition, all of which came about by improvements in transportation, agriculture, plumbing, and a simple better understanding of what is going on the human body.

Yet the insanity continues, propagated by the pharmaceutical companies that are deathly afraid of the truth and their paid-for whore sponsors in the media. People freak out over 200 out of 320 million people (0.0000625%) with the measles while ASDs affect 1 in every 58 kids, a 9,300X larger problem (and getting worse!). More people get struck by lightning than get measles. Far more people die in automobile accidents than get measles. Nobody has died from measles in the US in over a decade, but over 100 have died from adverse reactions to that vaccine (Source: CDC, assuming they’re credible).

Nice priorities, eh?

I myself am opposed to vaccines, and I haven’t had any save one in 25 years (and that one was unnecessary!). In that time I haven’t gotten any of those communicable diseases, either. Why haven’t I? It’s because of hygiene, sanitation, nutrition, and most importantly, knowledge of my immune system. The latter is the reason I oppose vaccines.

And I’m going to explain why I oppose them. This has nothing to do with celebrities, autism, Big Pharma’s prepaid-results “studies,” or any of that loud noise coming from the masses. It has everything to do with the pure biomechanics of the immune system and how it functions, both with natural immunity from disease exposure and artificial immunity from vaccines.

So, let’s dive in, shall we?

For starters, what exactly is our immune system? It’s an intermixed series of defenses against diseases that works with all of our organs to combat against diseases on all fronts. It is constantly working against pathogens, normally dynamically adapting to new strains, and generally working very hard behind the scenes most of the time to keep our bodies healthy and functioning. It includes (but is not limited to) the skin, which defends against direct attack by pathogens, mucous membranes, which generate histamine responses to attackers at the nose and eyes, ear wax to do the same in the ears, tonsils and adenoids for the throat, tears in the eyes, and even body hair of all kinds. Internally it includes the gut flora, which is crucial, the appendix, which stores extra gut flora, the liver, pancreas, spleen, bone marrow, kidneys, lymph nodes, thymus and other glands, and lungs, all of which play roles in keeping the various parts of the body clear of pathogens. It also especially includes the brain, which keeps everything running and lets our conscious self know when things aren’t working right so we can help the immune system get back to balance and health.

Antibodies are a part of that system, undoubtedly, but they’re not the only thing. We’ll get back to them in a few paragraphs, because that’s at the heart of the problem, and the mass ignorance, over vaccines.

Back to the immune system, it’s crucial to understand that it is always working, always fighting off pathogens, always adapting to new threats and diseases. These threats and diseases are always present, even within the body, but the immune system keeps them in check enough to not be a problem—normally. However, there are times when the immune system is either caught off-guard by a new strain it hasn’t seen before in large enough numbers, or it gets suppressed from something else so it can’t respond properly (as we have learned from AIDS patients and research on that disease). Stress, for example, is a common problem that decreases immune function. One microbe or virus particle is not enough to make someone feel sick; it never is. What happens is that enough of the particles (billions of them) get into the system that the immune system can’t initially keep up with the response to it or get the correct response, and that’s when the external symptoms emerge—fever, fatigue, etc. The immune system gets the body to effectively drop almost everything else to combat this invader, and that’s when we feel sick. If the immune system can beat it back without doing that, we feel less or no symptoms. Mileage varies based on severity and the overall state of the immune system at the time.

But what actually happens in there when this is going on? Here is where the real biomechanics come into play, including the antibodies.

First, let’s go the normal disease route, because this is how the system is *supposed* to work. Normally Th0 cells, the unformed immune system cells, are at rest in the thymus gland, doing nothing, waiting for a pathogen. A pathogen enters the body and encounters the immune system’s Th0 cells. The immune system engages in a Th1 immune reaction to the pathogen, producing an Interleukin-12 (IL-12) cytokine, among others, and also suppresses the Th2 cytokine response. These cytokines are produced according to information from CD4 lymphocytes, and are the hormonal messengers that tell the immune system exactly what the pathogen is and how to combat it. These lymphocytes are produced by the immune system organs that encounter the pathogen, and they are constantly being produced and modified until the pathogen is eliminated, fine-tuning as it goes. While they are being produced, they are constantly producing inflammatory responses within the immune system, and those responses are the messages the immune system needs to determine how to fight it back—the levels of inflammation help the system figure out what’s working and what isn’t, and how much. When the system gets the Th1 cytokines produced from the lymphocytes from the various organs, it pieces them together to produce the proper response. That response is then both stored for future reference in the immune system’s “memory” (specific antigen receptors in the thymus) but it is also used to generate the follow-on Th2 cytokine response, including some antibodies. More on that in a moment. Th1 cytokines also work to kill off the pathogens that get inside the cellular walls, or intracellular membranes. This kill-off, by generating its own antibodies, is known as cell-mediated or cellular immunity, which is the natural and permanent immunity that we humans get from exposure to diseases. Th1 cytokines deal with viruses, cancers, yeasts (fungi), and intracellular bacteria.

Th2 cytokines, on the other hand, then come in after the Th1 cytokines and start up the rebalancing of the immune system. In general, Th2 cytokines produce anti-inflammatory responses to help balance out the side effects of the Th1 inflammatory effects, but in doing so it also blocks the Th1 response. The Th2 response produces IL-10 cytokines, among others, but blocks IL-12. In a normal immune response, the Th2 response settles back the Th1 response and balance is re-attained, and outward symptoms decrease or disappear. Th2 cytokines are also produced from Th0 cells, primarily from the IL-10 production.

However, Th2 cytokines also are produced in reaction to an extracellular non-biological invader, meaning it hasn’t penetrated the cellular membrane, and is found in bodily fluids such as digestive tracts and bloodstreams. Pay note to that, as it matters later when we get into the second disease route. This external production is also known as antibody-mediated or humoral immunity. Th2 cytokines deal with other types of organisms and pathogens, including chemicals and extracellular bacteria, but not viruses.

But here’s the tricky part: viruses make IL-10 mimics in peptides/proteins, and viruses are normally dealt with by a Th1 response. However, the IL-10 mimic causes a Th2 response instead. (A similar IL-12 mimic is also known and is a major issue in compromised immune systems) The net result of this is a depressed immune system in terms of the Th1 reaction to the viruses until the immune system can figure out the deception and respond, holding the line against the viruses by RNase-L production, which normally inhibits viral reproduction. Meanwhile, the viruses work to overwhelm the whole system until it can fight back, either by itself or with external assistance.

Now, on to the second disease route, which is vaccinations. When a vaccine is injected into the bloodstream, it bypasses the normal first route and all of its defenses and senses. The Th1 response is suppressed because the pathogens and chemicals in the shot are already in the bloodstream, directly penetrating the skin defenses, bypassing the rest as well, going through the muscles and into the bloodstream via muscle capillaries and veins. The net result is a Th2 response to the invader, as expected. But there is little to no Th1 response for the Th2 response to mediate, so all it does is suppress the normal Th1 response that is working on that pathogen, and along the way, HALF of the immune system response for that pathogen! Then the IL-10 mimic also kicks in if the virus in the shot is live or even attenuated, further confusing the entire system into a larger Th2 response, but to a Th1 virus! Remember, the Th1 response is already suppressed because the pathogens didn’t get into the body through the normal routes; it bypassed them. Factor in the chemical adjuvants, also in the bloodstream, compounding the Th2 responses, and it’s even more imbalanced, a literal triple shot of Th2 imbalance in the immune system! If the Th1 response can recover from this blocking and suppression, it is possible that the system can straighten itself out and right the ship over time, which is visible externally as recovering from illness. But not everyone recovers, and also the damage can be asymptomatic. When the immune system tries to rebalance, the Th1 response is even greater than normal, producing more inflammation, including encephalopathy, which can be permanently damaging, even to the point of death. That kind of inflammation in the brain also causes neural misfiring and miswiring problems, which can manifest itself in various ways, including ASDs, seizures, and other neurological disorders. If rebalancing does occur, the Th1 response *may* produce antibodies to the virus, which theTh2 response does not, which is why humoral immunity can work—but the damage risk is the problem, and as many have seen with side effects to the vaccines, ranging from mild skin irritation up through ASDs and death, the risk is not managed well. (This is why those side effects are listed on the vaccine inserts, BTW—they are REAL!). Now take that repeated battering of the immune system and apply it to a developing pediatric immune system, multiply it by the number of vaccines on modern “schedules,” and it’s easy to see how this chemical warfare on the immune system hurts kids. A Th2 response can generate antibodies, but if it does so it is nowhere near as effective as a Th1 response, and it must rely on the very Th1 response it is suppressing to generate antibodies to the pathogens the Th2 response cannot do.

But, if the Th1 response is unable to catch up and deal with the pathogen, resulting in a chronic infection, the pathogen, if a virus, also produces Interferon Gamma (IFN-y) cytokines, which also produces constant inflammation in the brain and leaky gut, which compounds the problems. (See Further Note, below.)

Is it now clear how vaccines screw up the immune system and how they actually work against it, by blocking and suppressing half of it, in some cases to the point of non-recovery? An excessive Th2 imbalance is also what allergies are, too: an immune response to non-bacterial, non-viral pathogens in the body. Further, the suppressed Th1 response also allows viral and bacterial invasions of the body, and that has its own set of problems. Those invasions cause all sorts of other issues, including permanent damage to the immune system (including compounding its already-compromised state, even destroying it, and cancers), nervous system (including ALS, MS, and paralysis), neural system (including ASDs, brain damage, and later on Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s), and even death.

And people think going down this road is a good idea? I certainly don’t!

Yet this is exactly the knowledge of the immune system that most people do not know, yet they proclaim “vaccines work” as if it were some sort of religious truth. The actual biomechanics say otherwise: vaccines can work, but they are by far not the best means to boost an immune system.

But wait, there’s more!

Remember also that there is a marked difference between cell-mediated immunity and antibody-mediated immunity? Well, here’s the difference: in cell-mediated immunity, the information about the virus or bacteria is contained in the cytokines and transferred to the antigen receptors in the Th0 cells, where it is kept in the immune system permanently for future use and adaption. That’s the Th1 response, remember. In the antibody-mediated response, however, that entire process is bypassed and the information is not stored in the cells—because the response is extracellular, so there’s no information to store! As such, the antibodies have no means of maintaining themselves or adapting over time, and they eventually wear off, while the pathogens adapt and mutate, making the snapshot obsolete. Yes, those antibodies reproduce some, but they never adapt, and eventually over time the immune system discards them as either unused or obsolete. That doesn’t happen with intracellular immunity. The pharmaceutical response is to give booster shots of allegedly (but not always really) the same pathogen, and the entire Th2 response happens AGAIN, with the Th1 response blocked and suppressed AGAIN, screwing up the immune system AGAIN. (This is EXACTLY why the pertussis vaccines failed—the virus mutated, but the immune systems were unable to adapt.)

In other words, antibody-mediated immunity is a static snapshot of an immune response at a given time, and it is NOT the ongoing dynamic adaptive process of cell-mediated immunity. That dynamic nature is why the natural cell-mediated immunity is both permanent and far superior to antibody-mediated immunity. This is also why vaccination is *not* immunization, and the terms should *not* be used interchangeably as they commonly and mistakenly are.

So this is what it comes down to: vaccines do not work to create immunity in a safe or proper manner in harmony with the immune system, nor does it make any sense to inject toxins into the body to create a partial, incomplete, and potentially damaging or lethal reaction in order to create an at-best temporary solution to a problem that can be addressed in a far more effective and permanent manner the natural way. The benefits of vaccines are only temporary and the damage can vary by person. It simply isn’t worth the risk. So I choose to not go there.

As for other people not having reactions that are severe, those can be chalked up to the ability of their immune systems to stay balanced and not repressed in spite of the shot reactions. Kudos to them, but there is little way to tell before the fact if that would happen or not, and the greater the barrage of shots, the greater the likelihood of that balance failing. They should be happy with their successes, not angry at others who do not wish to repeat a failure!

NOTE: I have allergies, and I have complications from the infant MMR shot in the form of nervous system damage that still exists today, some 40 years later. It has taken me decades to figure out why and what to do about it. I was lucky in that my damage was not as bad as it could have been. Yes, that does bias my opinion, and I openly admit it. But I have no desire to further damage my already-damaged immune system. To do so is simply crazy. If the first tenet of medicine is, “Do No Harm,” then why do more harm?

FURTHER NOTE: This essay deals with a brief summary of immune responses only. ASDs are from a complex set of problems; however, it is readily clear from above that vaccine-induced encephalopathy plays a major role in damaging neural development. That being said, the immune response also deals with pathogens and invaders in the gut flora, and that too plays a similar path in ASD issues. It is estimated that roughly 70% of our immune system comes from our microbiome in our gut flora, and if that gets messed up from GMOs, bad things can and do happen. A good read on the cellular basics in the gut, besides Source #3 below, is available here: It should be noted that the entire area of leaky gut, IL-1b cytokine production and activity, and microligial activity as they relate to increased glyphosate use is an entirely different, yet related issue, and not in scope here—yet it should definitely not be dismissed in the slightest!

Sources: (all worth a read!)

1. Balance the Th1/Th2 Immune System,
2. Th1 and Th2 responses: what are they?,
3. A Comprehensive Guide to Managing Autism,
4. Immune System Imbalance (Th2 Dominance): Overview,
5. Basics of the Human Immune System Prior to Introduction of Vaccines: Are Vaccines Turning Our Children’s Immune Systems Inside Out?, .

…and many others…

26 thoughts on “Libertarian Mike Seebeck: I’m sick of the pro-vaccine BS!

  1. Steve M

    Mike, I don’t agree with a lot of what you have to say on this issue… but thanks for introducing the th1 and th2 material for additional study. Presenting your arguments in this format is much better.

  2. Steve M

    I am not sure the authors of the papers you cite would agree with yu that these are the “facts”

    for example the conclusion to

    2. Th1 and Th2 responses: what are they?,


    “Some people have suggested that immunisation programmes (and the subsequent reduction in microbiological exposure) are responsible for the increasing incidence of atopy. There is, however, no evidence that immunisation causes atopy. Moreover, this is not an argument that we should be exposing children to potentially fatal diseases again. If experiencing native diseases reduces the incidence of atopy, then the task of immunologists must be to develop vaccines that mimic the positive effects of infection.”

  3. langa

    To me, the libertarian position on vaccines is crystal clear: Regardless of whether you believe that vaccines are safe and/or effective, you have no right to force your opinion on others. Each individual must decide for himself/herself whether to be vaccinated. No ifs, no ands, no buts.

  4. Andy Craig

    I’m sick of pseudo-science BS from people who are manifestly unqualified to be giving medical advice.

    Would you take medical advice from the Republicans and Democrats? No? Good. Then don’t expect anybody to refuse the recommendation of their physician, because you as a Libertarian told them to. Last time I checked, membership in a political party doesn’t grant anybody a degree in medicine or biochemistry.

  5. Andy Craig

    “To me, the libertarian position on vaccines is crystal clear: Regardless of whether you believe that vaccines are safe and/or effective, you have no right to force your opinion on others. Each individual must decide for himself/herself whether to be vaccinated. No ifs, no ands, no buts.”

    If Bob’s Private Mega-Company or Lucy’s Daycare say being vaccinated is a condition of working for Bob or enrolling your kid at Lucy’s, then there are no libertarian grounds to object to that.

  6. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Andy Craig said: ” I’m sick of pseudo-science BS from people who are manifestly unqualified to be giving medical advice.”

    Well, luckily, the LP has you, who is an expert in just about everything, to tell us what is “pseudo-science” and what isn’t.

  7. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Langa said “To me, the libertarian position on vaccines is crystal clear: Regardless of whether you believe that vaccines are safe and/or effective, you have no right to force your opinion on others. Each individual must decide for himself/herself whether to be vaccinated. No ifs, no ands, no buts.”

    I certainly agree with this, and most Libertarians who responded to my request for opinions do, also. Unfortunately, there really are several bills floating about to make vaccines mandatory, even for adults. For this reason, we need to get much of the negatives about vaccines out so that people are aware of the risks.

  8. Steve M

    My problem with the “facts” are that as I read some of the other articles such as “Basics of the Human Immune System Prior to Introduction of Vaccines: Are Vaccines Turning Our Children’s Immune Systems Inside Out?” I find that they don’t agree with the their sources. For example the article states

    “For measles, 99 percent of those vaccinated against measles contracted the disease, whereas only 1 percent of the non-vaccinated contracted measles (1985, Texas).”

    Which I believe they are talking about the 1985 Measle out break Corpus Christi, Texas which had a generally good compliance with having the students vaccinated.

    My reading of the source says that if the vaccination had been effective which it was 1732 students then they did not get the measles if the vaccination was not effective (74 students) say not given at all or the recomended number of doeses or was given before the student was a year old (supposedly a mothers imunity can temporarily protect infants making the vacination not take) the result was that 14 of this group caught the measles.

    the source Abstract states.

    An outbreak of measles occurred among adolescents in Corpus Christi, Texas, in the spring of 1985, even though vaccination requirements for school attendance had been thoroughly enforced. Serum samples from 1806 students at two secondary schools were obtained eight days after the onset of the first case. Only 4.1 percent of these students (74 of 1806) lacked detectable antibody to measles according to enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay, and more than 99 percent had records of vaccination with live measles vaccine. Stratified analysis showed that the number of doses of vaccine received was the most important predictor of antibody response. Ninety-five percent confidence intervals of seronegative rates were 0 to 3.3 percent for students who had received two prior doses of vaccine, as compared with 3.6 to 6.8 percent for students who had received only a single dose. After the survey, none of the 1732 seropositive students contracted measles. Fourteen of 74 seronegative students, all of whom had been vaccinated, contracted measles. In addition, three seronegative students seroconverted without experiencing any symptoms. We conclude that outbreaks of measles can occur in secondary schools, even when more than 99 percent of the students have been vaccinated and more than 95 percent are immune.

  9. Steve M

    opps since I used some one elses work I should cite the source or at least tell you where you can find it so…. here it is

    N Engl J Med. 1987 Mar 26;316(13):771-4.
    Measles outbreak in a fully immunized secondary-school population.
    Gustafson TL, Lievens AW, Brunell PA, Moellenberg RG, Buttery CM, Sehulster LM.

  10. Steve M

    Ah think (always dangerous) that both Jill Pyeatt and Andy Craig are right.

    The government should not be forcing vaccinations and that you should talk to your Medical Doctor to get advice on vaccinations. Given Mike’s belief that medical issues he has suffered were caused by vaccinations, family histories are different and should be brought with the Doctor as part of the discussion.

  11. langa

    If Bob’s Private Mega-Company or Lucy’s Daycare say being vaccinated is a condition of working for Bob or enrolling your kid at Lucy’s, then there are no libertarian grounds to object to that.

    I don’t disagree with that, but I also don’t see how it has anything to do with what I said, since neither of those situations involves the use of force.

  12. JudComm to Rise from Invisibilty

    Vaccination is not 100% effective, nor does it need to be. So long as an adequate fraction if the population is immune, the disease will die out rather than spreading indefinitely. The difficulty is that non-vaccinated children, because they can contract the disease, are threats to children to young to be vaccinated, people with compromised immune systems, e.g., people on cancer chemotherapy, people who are allergic to aspects of the vaccine and who therefore could not be vaccinated, etc.

  13. Steve M

    Ff you think about those 1985 Texas numbers…

    100% vacination
    96% effective
    of the 4% non effective 20% (1 in 5) or 14 got the measles.

    1806 students
    1732 resistent to the meassles none of them caught it
    74 not resistent of which 14 caught the meassles

    so if there wasn’t a vaccine would 20% of the 1806 students have caught the meassles or

    14 with universal vacinations or 360 without vacinations.

    Seems pretty convining to me.

  14. Dan Karlan

    The libertarian position certainly is that nobody has the right to force his beliefs on others. However, NOT vaccinating your children does in fact impose your beliefs on others, because your children interact with other people’s children. And if your children are not vaccinated, they pose a direct and very real risk of infection on those other children.

    For that reason, it could be quite legitimately argued that REQUIRING every parent to vaccinate his or her children — with the only exception being medical — is CONSISTENT with the libertarian ethic.

  15. Seebeck

    It’s rather obvious from the comments that Andy, Karlan, and Steve have less clue on the subject than the average potted plant. But so what else is new?

    I stand by the facts and my opinion from them. Poisoning kids is child abuse, and requiring that to assuage someone else’s ignorant fears is aggression and assault, and is NOT libertarian in the slightest.

  16. Steve M

    I stand on my position Mike, that the data shows that vaccinations are life savers and that you are wrong. While I believe that to be true, I also believe that people have the right to be stupid and the government should not use force to stop people from being stupid.

  17. paulie

    The libertarian position certainly is that nobody has the right to force his beliefs on others. However, NOT vaccinating your children does in fact impose your beliefs on others, because your children interact with other people’s children. And if your children are not vaccinated, they pose a direct and very real risk of infection on those other children.

    For that reason, it could be quite legitimately argued that REQUIRING every parent to vaccinate his or her children — with the only exception being medical — is CONSISTENT with the libertarian ethic.

    The opposite could be argued as well, since some people believe vaccines are dangerous, so that would be a conundrum for libertarian theory.

  18. Gaye Michael

    Thank you, Mike Seebeck, for standing up and speaking the truth, even though there are so many who choose not to open their eyes or do the research. Maybe some day when they, or a loved one is injured from a vaccine, they will open their eyes.

  19. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    The vaccine issue is huge in CA. Effective July 1, 2016, no child can be enrolled in school without being vaccinated. The law includes private schools and pre-schools. So, instead of getting their kids ready for school, thousands of parents are preparing to homeschool or trying to find some alternate plan.

    Luckily, there’s been a lawsuit filed, but I have no idea how long it will take to accomplish anything.

  20. Krzysztof Lesiak

    I believe Illinois still offers religious exemption, though I haven’t gone to a state school (or any school for that matter for three years). I didn’t get vaccinated for as long as I was able to do so, probably more than eight years, until stage II of indoctrination camp rolled around.I definitely think that there very well could be a tangible link between vaccines and autism, for example, and besides that, I’m convinced that every person who believes in the importance of individual sovereignty and the freedom for oneself to make his or her own medical decisions should be opposed to mandatory vaccinations. I would think all genuine libertarians as well as paleoconservatives would fall under this category.

    When it comes to the major third party candidates’ views on mandatory vaccination, Darrell Castle is strongly against this toltariarian practice, while Jill Stein has sent out some mixed signals but ultimately seemingly endorsed the statist line when pressed by the “skeptical” media. I was about to say that Gary Johnson does not offer his position on this key aspect of health freedom or is in support of it, but then I came across this tweet:

    It is from 2011, though, so I wonder if his Clinton appointee running mate has swayed him on this.

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