Ventura Still Talking About 2016 Libertarian Run

On Sunday, the Star Tribune published an article in which former Minnesota governor Jesse Ventura discusses whether he will run for president in 2016.

Ventura continues to claim that members of the Libertarian Party have invited him to the National Convention next year to seek the party’s presidential nomination.  Ventura says he may appear at the convention to seek the nomination, but would not join the party.

The article also includes a statement from executive director of the national committee of the Libertarian Party Wes Benedict, who suggests Ventura could win the party’s presidential nomination since he is well-known, “has an independent streak in him,” and backed Libertarian Party presidential nominee Gary Johnson in 2012.

Benedict reports “More than a few [in the Libertarian Party] have said we should see about getting [Ventura] to run.”

Ventura has said he is open to running as Donald Trump’s running mate and is also considering running again for Governor of Minnesota.  However, he says that if the Eighth Circuit reverses the $1.4 million judgment for him against the estate of “American Sniper” Chris Kyle, he will move to Mexico and remain there permanently.

46 thoughts on “Ventura Still Talking About 2016 Libertarian Run

  1. Jill Pyeatt

    Talking about being Donald Trump’s vp choice in the same paragraph as talking about being our candidate is wrong, just so wrong on so many levels. Maybe he should try running for Pope! That makes just about as much sense to me.

  2. Andy

    Oh geez. There are things I like about the guy, but he ought to give this a rest, especially after endorsing Bernie Sanders and then endorsing Donald Trump.

  3. paulie

    True. But on the other hand, Austin Petersen should probably stop campaigning for Rand Paul after announcing for the LP nomination, and Mike Wiley is still being called a LP presidential candidate in some places after endorsing Ben Carson..

  4. Richard Winger

    At least Jesse Ventura is giving the Libertarian Party a little bit of publicity. It is clear that the mainstream media does realize that the LP is the nation’s third largest political party.

  5. Andy Craig

    I think this coverage in Minnesota’s paper-of-record is more by virtue of him being the former Governor, than it is any acknowledgement of the Libertarian Party as the third-largest. An ex-Governor (potentially) running for President is relatively newsworthy for the hometown paper, regardless of what party he’s talking about doing it in.

    I do wish the papers covering it, particularly when they contact LNC for comment, would explain that Ventura’s ostensible plan to win the nomination without joining the party isn’t possible under the current rules.

    The idea of him running for Governor again is interesting, and at least more plausible. I doubt it will happen, but that would be something to watch him try. Or he could go for Senate– Franken v. Ventura, wouldn’t that be a fun show?

  6. Seymour_Results

    Jesse is too dumb to know the claimed difference between “libertarian anarchist” and “libertarian minarchist.” He buys into the idea that if he’s a minarchist, he can’t work with a party that’s “full of anarchists.” This seems to mean he doesn’t know the definition of the term libertarian, nor understand the concept that parties cannot possibly be homogenous (even after Ron Paul). He’s also seemingly too dumb to understand “injury” and “intent” need to exist in order for a crime to exist (NOT signing up for government health insurance lacks “injury” and “intent”). He claims he thinks the incumbent government is illegitimate, but then defends it. He can’t decide what to think, because he lacks a consistent, coherent philosophy. …Like most government school graduates, and sons of government employees.

    He also doesn’t want to claim the Libertarian Party because he can’t understand why we have a consistent philosophy. So he says stupid shit like “Can I shit on your faces and still have you nominate me, while disavowing your party while I run?” He doesn’t understand that parties are the result of discrete ideologies (not only the bland sociopathy of the vice-versa situation).

    In the final analysis, …Who cares? Bloomberg is going to shut down the LP anyway. Its 35 year very expensive masturbation run is coming to a close.

    One reason I say this is that the LP just gave out a no-bid lucrative contract to a “drama free” “efficient” mercenary(socialist-by-default) petitioner in South Dakota. Because this petitioner(who has no history of being a libertarian, a Libertarian, or giving two shits about any libertarian principle) doesn’t care about the LP, he’s encouraged his petitioners to also circulate an initiative petition for a “top two primary.” Some of you may be familiar with this petition, as it was circulated and then voted into law in CA and WA.

    Do you know how these “LP petitioners” are selling this petition to the general public? They’re saying “This allows independents to vote in the primary.” …They don’t mention that it de facto abolishes third parties. …Add that to the confusion of having been asked to sign by a guy circulating the Libertarian Party petition, and, well, the writing is on the wall. NOTE: This is the same way that the petition was sold to the public in CA and WA. Had any petitioner told the truth about it, it never would have even gotten on the ballot. (Which means that, contrary to fucking geniuses like Chuck Moulton, Bill Redpath, and Scott Kohlhaas, it actually does matter what the LP’s petitioners say in public.)

    …But at least those petitioners that Charles “Chaz” Tuttle is hiring in South Dakota are “drama free” and “efficient” (they very efficiently don’t give the slightest fuck whether the LP lives or dies, and hence don’t give any “backtalk” to Bill Redpath and the other idiots on the LNC when they are being paid large amounts of cash by them). I’m sure Chuck Moulton and the other idiots on the LNC(who have no idea how politics works) would approve of them.

    We already know that this petition is likely to pass. It’s passed in two states already: Washington and California. In those states, the likelihood of electing libertarians has fallen to somewhere around 00.00%. (Zero percent, for those blind libertarians who are using reading machines. …I’m not sure I can make it any clearer.)

    This paid attempt by the totalitarian Bloomberg crowd to abolish third parties dovetails nicely with his attempt to outlaw private gun transfers, and to confiscate guns from “the mentally unstable” (those with “unstable” AKA “libertarian” beliefs). That initiative of his is already on the 2016 ballot, in Nevada. I infiltrated his meeting, and got video of his agent insisting that the petitioners not register anyone to vote: a denial of their civil rights. This could have been exploited, but the NV LP was too busy jerking off printing a voter guide noone would read, to bother answering my calls. …As were NRA and GOA representatives in NV. (As the election gets closer, now that it’s too late to influence the outcome, perhaps they’ll start caring. Idiots.)

    So, bye-bye, backstabbing party full of idiots who demand nothing from their dollars! Keep Bill Redpath, Scott Kohlhaas, Eric Dondero, and Daryl Bonner running the show! Keep paying them your hard-earned cash! …They’re “drama free.” They tell you what you want to hear! (No drama there!) They make you feel important, (even though you’re an idiot who wouldn’t know strategy if it drove over you)! That’s what the LP is all about: making elderly white people feel like they’re “sticking it to the man.” …Providing a safe, harmless-to-the-establishment outlet for their dissident tendencies.

    …And who cares if the LP’s hired guns never recruit a single person into the LP? Who cares that they can’t be bothered to put a meet-up online, or register voters into the LP? The LP is a gathering place for ex-Republicans to bitch about society, not a serious attempt at actually changing anything. …Nothing more.

    The LP deserves to be destroyed. They contribute nothing, they don’t mind the fact that they’re inept and infiltrated, and lack any means for righting their course. They violate all of Blackwell’s “Laws of the Public Policy Process” when dealing with contractors, and that’s why they can’t elect anyone.

    …Much like the squabbling idiots who couldn’t mount an effective resistance to Hitler, the Libertarian Party, Green Party, Constitution Party, and various independents can’t stop fighting each other long enough to even slow Bloomberg down. …And Bloomberg is similarly inept, it’s just that the “libertarians” in the USA are even more inept.

    Andy Jacobs, Paul Frankel, Bob Lynch(the last ACTUAL Libertarian to effectively work South Dakota), Milton Lukins, Jake Witmer, etc. have all but been “run out” of the LP. After all, those petitioners and coordinators are a bunch of “drama queens” who actually care about the results of the petitioning. They recruit candidates, present libertarian ideas to the petition signers, and register new members into the LP. However, when they’re being given irrational “orders” from the LP’s wannabe CEOs, they have a tendency to question those “orders.” This has caused them to not be hired back, in spite of their spotless track records.

    …It’s so much easier to follow irrational orders when you don’t give a shit about the result of those orders.

    …Easier, but not “more efficient.” (Contrary to what know-nothings like Chuck Moulton would have readers of this site believe.) If you want actual libertarians to be “more efficient” why don’t you advance them hundreds of thousands of dollars, as you’ve done for Daryl Bonner over the last several years? That would do wonders for their “efficiency.” Why not advance them enough money to print LP fliers, so they didn’t have to decide between printing fliers out, and paying their bills?

    Ah, here’s the answer: That might lead to an actual grassroots movement populated by modern day versions of Sam Adams. That might lead to a libertarian groundswell! …In fact, there was all the evidence in the world that that actually happened in some isolated places where the prior libertarians had been working. (Soon to be moved out of those areas by their “bosses” at the National LP.) …That’s the last thing the FBI, CIA, or whoever handles Bill Redpath wants.

    …It’s pathetic.

    So you know what? When I hear “Libertarians” bitching about Rand Paul and Ventura as if the LP is a more viable alternative, I just laugh. Not until you crack a strategy book, jerks.

  7. paulie

    Jesse is too dumb to know the claimed difference between “libertarian anarchist” and “libertarian minarchist.”

    He’s neither.

  8. Andy

    “Seymour_Results

    September 16, 2015 at 9:28 pm

    Jesse is too dumb to know the claimed difference between ‘libertarian anarchist’ and ‘libertarian minarchist.'”

    Although I think that Jesse Ventura has some admirable traits and views, he obviously does not understand that libertarians do not support government mandated minimum wages or government involvement in healthcare, and he also does not understand that endorsing Bernie Sanders and not too long after this, endorsing Donald Trump, are not things that are going to win him any “Brownie Points” among Libertarians.

  9. Andy

    Seymour Results said: “Eric Dondero, and Daryl Bonner running the show! Keep paying them your hard-earned cash! …They’re ‘drama free.'”

    LOL! Try telling this to anyone who has actually dealt with either of them on a petition drive. The LP person in charge of the drive in Oklahoma would have a very different story to tell about dealing with the latter person mentioned here.

  10. Andy

    Seymour Results said: “Andy Jacobs, Paul Frankel, Bob Lynch(the last ACTUAL Libertarian to effectively work South Dakota), Milton Lukins, Jake Witmer, etc. have all but been “run out” of the LP. ”

    None of these people have been “run out” of the LP. Under-utilized. Mistreated. Under-appreciated. Stabbed in the back. Yes, on all counts, but this is not the same as being run out.

  11. Seymour_Results

    If there’s any cure to be had to the USA’s current woes, it will most likely come from outside the current system. I say “most likely” because it’s possible that individuals will infiltrate the major parties at the State Legislative level, civil disobedience, etc.

    Ventura is part and parcel of the current sociopathic system. He sees no problem with Obamacare. He thinks he’s a rebel because he wears Hendrix T-shirts. He applauds Bernie “watch it the world burn” Sanders, who prescribes government force as a solution to all problems. (“When all you have is a hammer, all your problems look like nails.”) Ventura also applauds Trump as “outside the system,” in spite of Trump’s degrading attacks on immigrants and the general right to travel freely, his support for the “Kelo v. New London” decision against Suzette Kelo, and his attempt to use that decision to steal the property of Vera Coking (famously revealed in one of John Stossel’s books) for his Atlantic City parking lot. Sounds pretty “establishment” to me. One of Ventura’s first books “Don’t start the revolution without me,” shows where he’s coming from: He views revolutions as something that others could start without him, as if they were picking him last for team sports in the grade-school gymnasium. What a passive, wussy title/outlook! In that book, he says he’s a libertarian, but fails to commit to working with other libertarians, because he loves government too much. (Meaning he’s “not even a libertarian minarchist.” This mental weakness then, is ironically used as an excuse by the very lapel-grabbing whackjobs that Ventura is criticizing as the reason why they’re not “minarchists” or, as they love to say, “statists.” Jim Carrey once very accurately portrayed such “agorists” in the old Living Colour TV show.)

    If you want to oppose the current sociopathic system, you need to have a consistent philosophy, combined with an intelligent and adaptive strategy. Where philosophy disagrees with strategy, you need to be dishonest to the dishonest and say what you need to say to survive the cross-eyed scrutiny of “the moral majority” AKA “the large-and-growing Nazi contingent.” (The Nazis took 44% of the vote in 1934 Germany.)

    If you cannot withhold the whole truth from those incapable of comprehending it, you cannot win an election. If you say you don’t believe in god to a religious idiot who will never investigate your claims, you just lost his vote. If you lose too many votes, you lose the election. So, on issues that don’t matter, if you want to win elections, you need to learn to avoid answering fully. While this may be “intellectually dishonest,” it’s “intellectually dishonest to the intellectually dishonest.” This is simply called “playing politics” and most Libertarians don’t want to do it, because they’d rather die in a gulag than tell a lie (not really, but they themselves are too intellectually dishonest to acknowledge that that is the choice they’re faced with). That’s only one small strategic flaw. The rest of their strategic flaws are far larger, …but it rarely even gets that far.

    This causes people like Jesse Ventura to bitch that “Libertarians are all anarchists” (not true).

    …But it’s academic anyway, since the Libertarians are externally-controlled, whether they know it or not. It doesn’t matter by “who” or “what.” Perhaps they’re controlled by a system that favors ineptitude in minor parties. Or a system that favors kickbacks to certain people, or “ongoing friendships” with certain mercenary contractors. Who cares? Either way, it’s the death of the LP.

    The LP hasn’t elected anyone to actually meaningful office since 1980. It’s time to get serious or pull the plug. Because the LNC’s left hand doesn’t know what the right is doing, my vote is for “pull the plug.”

    If your vote is “get serious” then not a single member of the current LNC can be re-elected at the next convention. Sadly, they also cannot be replaced with scum from the GOP and Democrats. This makes the job of the strategically unaware very difficult, because few people are signing up to be LNC members, and even fewer are strategically competent.

    What must they do? They must learn basic political strategy in two months. Then, they must refocus the LP into a party that obeys Blackwell’s laws.

    If they don’t do that, they will eventually be rounded up by government bureaucrats, and, most likely, if history is a guide, killed. At very least, inflation will eat their savings, and their legacy.

    But hey, why should Americans care what the only choice capable of accessing 50 State ballots does? We weren’t using our rights anyway. Have a Nice Day.

  12. Chuck Moulton

    Jake Witmer wrote:

    One reason I say this is that the LP just gave out a no-bid lucrative contract to a “drama free” “efficient” mercenary(socialist-by-default) petitioner in South Dakota.

    […]

    (Which means that, contrary to fucking geniuses like Chuck Moulton, Bill Redpath, and Scott Kohlhaas, it actually does matter what the LP’s petitioners say in public.)

    […]

    So, bye-bye, backstabbing party full of idiots who demand nothing from their dollars! Keep Bill Redpath, Scott Kohlhaas, Eric Dondero, and Daryl Bonner running the show! Keep paying them your hard-earned cash! …They’re “drama free.” They tell you what you want to hear! (No drama there!)

    […]

    The LP deserves to be destroyed. They contribute nothing, they don’t mind the fact that they’re inept and infiltrated, and lack any means for righting their course. They violate all of Blackwell’s “Laws of the Public Policy Process” when dealing with contractors, and that’s why they can’t elect anyone.

    […]

    Andy Jacobs, Paul Frankel, Bob Lynch(the last ACTUAL Libertarian to effectively work South Dakota), Milton Lukins, Jake Witmer, etc. have all but been “run out” of the LP. After all, those petitioners and coordinators are a bunch of “drama queens”

    […]

    …It’s so much easier to follow irrational orders when you don’t give a shit about the result of those orders.

    …Easier, but not “more efficient.” (Contrary to what know-nothings like Chuck Moulton would have readers of this site believe.) I

    Pro tip: When people want to pay you for doing one task, don’t complain that they’re not willing to pay you for doing a completely different task. Take money for the in-demand task and either
    a) do the other task for free as a hobby or
    b) don’t do the other task at all.

    Another pro tip: If you are a colossal asshole all of the time, not only will you find it hard to convert people to your point of view, but you will also actively alienate people from your point of view, thus making it harder for your polite, reasonable allies to gain converts. For example, Paulie has made several good points about South Dakota and the top-2 petition. Based on Paulie’s remarks I found myself wanting to contact Redpath, Sarwark, and other LNC members to lobby them about the matter. But now that the colossal asshole Jake Witmer is throwing a temper tantrum foaming at the mouth and insulting me, I have no desire to get off my ass and say or do anything about the topic. It’s not that I disagree about the top-2 absurdity… it’s that my time and political capital are limited and valuable, and I will not be using them to support the agenda of a colossal asshole.

    A third pro-tip: If you don’t sign your name to your comments, that is an indication that you don’t have much conviction in your beliefs and are afraid of engaging in a real discussion. It’s obvious to everyone with a history in the party who you are due to your writing style, allusions to petitioning history, philosophy, and issue advocacy.

    That’s all free advice. My time is valuable, so I may have to charge you for my great advice if repetition is needed in the future.

  13. paulie

    I can’t remember what points I made about SD, but the reality is that top two will get on the ballot there, even if the LP managed to hire people who won’t work on it. It would just mean more people running around, fighting over spots, and confusing the public and encountering confused members of the public as far as what they had signed and what they hadn’t.

    So supposing we took the contract away from Chaz (On what basis? I am assuming he signed something saying he will collect or subcontract all of the sigs for SD, and did not sign what else he will or won’t work on). Let’s say Andy left OK, which badly needs his help (Daryl just left for MA initiatives). Andy would get to SD and work on some of the initiatives but not others and the LP, and maybe the CP, or not. Meanwhile the other petitioners who are now in SD would still have the CP and all 4 initiatives even if they did not have LP. So what if they have one less petition out of 6? They would still be making plenty of money and all of the petitions they are working on would make the ballot, including top two. None of the petitions would fail as a result of all this maneuvering; both the LP and top two will still be on the ballot, regardless.

    Andy would do free outreach and contact gathering, and would not confuse anyone into thinking that the LP supports top two, so that is good. Andy would make more money, so that’s good. On the other hand, Oklahoma would be put even further behind, so that’s not good. I would personally have a harder time working in OK without Andy helping with transportation and expediting pay, so even though I’ve been biting the curb here as it is, that would likely mean yet one more petitioner leaving OK. The LP would get on the ballot one way or the other in SD; Oklahoma is a lot less assured.

    Who else are we trying to get to SD, if not Andy or me?

  14. Mark Axinn

    >Jesse is too dumb to know the claimed difference between “libertarian anarchist” and “libertarian minarchist.”

    I disagree. Jesse is not dumb; he just does not care about those distinctions in the least.

  15. Andy

    “paulie

    September 17, 2015 at 4:03 am

    I can’t remember what points I made about SD, but the reality is that top two will get on the ballot there, even if the LP managed to hire people who won’t work on it. It would just mean more people running around, fighting over spots, and confusing the public and encountering confused members of the public as far as what they had signed and what they hadn’t.

    So supposing we took the contract away from Chaz (On what basis? I am assuming he signed something saying he will collect or subcontract all of the sigs for SD, and did not sign what else he will or won’t work on). Let’s say Andy left OK, which badly needs his help (Daryl just left for MA initiatives). Andy would get to SD and work on some of the initiatives but not others and the LP, and maybe the CP, or not. Meanwhile the other petitioners who are now in SD would still have the CP and all 4 initiatives even if they did not have LP. So what if they have one less petition out of 6? They would still be making plenty of money and all of the petitions they are working on would make the ballot, including top two. None of the petitions would fail as a result of all this maneuvering; both the LP and top two will still be on the ballot, regardless.”

    1) If Top Two Primary, or any other ant-liberty ballot initiative out there, is paying money, then the unfortunately reality is that there are enough apolitical mercenaries and people who are anti-liberty out there who will collect signatures for it, that it will probably make the ballot, HOWEVER, this DOES NOT MEAN that Libertarians have to be associated with it, nor does it mean that Libertarians have to reward those that are working Top Two Primary by paying them LP donor money to work the Libertarian Party petition at the same time, which is REWARDING those who are essentially holding a knife to the throat of the party (Top Two Primary is the knife).

    2) Nobody else was even consulted with or asked to go or even told that the LP petition drive in South Dakota was starting. The hiring process was done completely “behind closed doors” and behind the back. There are multiple Libertarians who would have been willing to work in South Dakota right now, some of whom are currently unemployed, and some of whom have other jobs outside of politics which they can get away from to work a petition drive. Even for the ones who are working on another petition drive, South Dakota doesn’t require a huge number of signatures, so they could go there and still likely make it back to work another drive before it ends.

    3) The petition drive in South Dakota could have started months ago. Somebody may say, “Well the party did not have the money then and the party just got it now.” My response to this is that the party could have made it a priority to have started the drive earlier, and that if the party is having trouble raising money, then it is just a symptom of years of the party being dysfunctional and ineffective. There are plenty of libertarians in this country, far more than those who make up current LP membership ranks. The party had more dues paying members 15 years ago than it does today, as 15 years ago the party had 33,000 and something dues paying members, and there are only 11,000 and something dues paying members today, and this is in spite of the fact that there are currently more people self identifying as being libertarians than ever, and it is in spite of the fact that Libertarian Party voter registrations are at an all time high (in the states where people can register by party), even though the Libertarian Party itself has put little effort into increasing Libertarian Party voter registrations.

    4) Somebody may say, “The people working in South Dakota are working cheap, so this is saving the party money.” My response to this is as follows:

    a) Since nobody else was ever consulted about the job, it is not known as to whether or not having actual Libertarians there would have cost any more money than is currently being spent.

    b) Even if it did cost more to hire actual Libertarians for this job (which it may not have), I think that it would be worth it to pay more so some actual Libertarian field outreach takes place, and so the Libertarian Party does not have its image sullied by associating it with some anti-liberty issues, like Top Two Primary (which is highly destructive to the party), and having the party represented on the streets by non-libertarian mercenaries (at least one of whom is likely an alcoholic), and some of whom are probably misrepresenting the party to the public. Once again, IT MAY NOT HAVE COST ANY MORE MONEY THAN IS CURRENTLY BEING SPENT to have actual Libertarians working on the petition drive in SD, Libertarians who’d also be COMMITTED to NOT working on Top Two Primary, but even if it did, I’d rather pay more and get better quality than pay less for garbage, which reminds me of the old expression, “You get what you pay for.”

    c) A perceived short term savings, WHICH MAY EVEN BE NON-EXSISTENT, could come with a lot of long term loses, such damaging the party’s image/reputation, rewarding those who are gleefully working for the party’s destruction (with Top Two Primary), and not bringing in new recruits to the party from field outreach, or even really raising the number of people who know anything about the party from field outreach, since there are not any Libertarians on the ground doing any field outreach.

  16. Andy

    Paul said: “So supposing we took the contract away from Chaz (On what basis?”

    Why is only one person, who is not even a Libertarian, and who has little track record with the Libertarian Party (this is a person who may have gathered a small number of signatures (maybe a few hundred) on maybe one LP drive prior to this), being handed a monopoly contract on a Libertarian Party petition drive?

    I have been involved in Libertarian Party ballot access for over15 years. I’d been an LP member for over 19 years. I’ve worked on 38 LP ballot access drives in 20 states. I have ZERO screw ups on my record. I have likely done more Libertarian field outreach than anyone else in the party. I HAVE ALSO NEVER BEEN HANDED A MONOPOLY ON ANY LP BALLOT ACCESS DRIVE (even though I’ve worked on things that were bigger than the LP, like being a ballot access coordinator for Ron Paul 2012).

    I am not even aware of the Libertarian Party doling out monopoly contracts to anyone on any LP ballot drives prior to the latter half of 2011 (so in other words, this actually GOES AGAINST STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE FOR THE PARTY), and it is very odd that the few people who have been handed these sweetheart deals have all been non-libertarian mercenaries who have little to no track record with the party, or they have been a mercenary that does have a track record with the party that contains multiple big screw ups on it.

  17. Andy

    Seymour Results said: “This paid attempt by the totalitarian Bloomberg crowd to abolish third parties dovetails nicely with his attempt to outlaw private gun transfers, and to confiscate guns from ‘the mentally unstable’ (those with ‘unstable’ AKA ‘libertarian; beliefs). That initiative of his is already on the 2016 ballot, in Nevada.”

    Some of the same non-libertarian mercenary petition circulators who worked on the Bloomberg funded gun control petitions in Washington (which passed last year) and in Nevada (which is going to be voted on next year), are also working on Top Two Primary in South Dakota, and I’d bet that some of these people are in fact carrying the LP petition right now.

    There was a marijuana legalization initiative petition in Nevada that was circulating at the same time as the Bloomberg funded gun control petition in Nevada. The marijuana petition came out first, but when the Bloomberg funded gun control petition came out, lots more petition circulators flooded into Nevada, the gun control petition ended up paying for a lot more signatures than necessary, so it the marijuana petition ran for the same time period at the gun control petition, so they were piggybacked.

    The marijuana legalization petition drive in Nevada could have been a great opportunity to build the Libertarian Party, IF the drive had not been turned over to apolitical mercenaries and Democrats, and IF it had not been teamed up with Bloomberg’s gun control petition. This would have been an excellent opportunity to get the message out the Libertarians are the party that wants to legalize marijuana, hand out information about the LP and about LP candidates in Nevada to the public (note that a lot of the petition drive ended up being done door-to-door, so it would have been a great opportunity to canvass for LP candidates at the same time), and to increase the number of register Libertarians in Nevada.

    Bloomberg is going to push this gun control ballot initiative in other states that have the initiative process, and in the states that do not, he is hiring people to lobby the legislature to pass it.

    I don’t know if Bloomberg has put any money into the Top Two Primary petition in South Dakota, but he did donate money to the one in Oregon last year (which fortunately, got voted down, in spite of Bloomberg’s money).

    Top Two Primary is currently paying for signatures in Florida, so it will probably be on the ballot in that state next year, and I have heard that there may be another attempt to place Top Two Primary on the ballot in Arizona (it was fortunately voted down in Arizona in 2010, but it may be back on the Arizona ballot for 2016).

  18. Andy

    If we had actual Libertarians on the ground gathering signatures for the LP right now, they could be informing every person that they encounter about what the Top Two Primary petition really is, as it is being deceptively sold to the public as being, “to allow independents to vote in the primaries.” The public is not being told that it also makes it extremely difficult for minor party or true independent candidates to appear on general election ballots. The public is not being told how it has taken choices away from the voters in California and Washington, where it has passed. The public is not being told that it has further empowered the Democratic and Republican party establishment, and that it has disenfranchised lots of other people.

    Libertarians on the ground in South Dakota COULD be urging people to not sign the Top Two Primary petition, and that if it makes the ballot, to vote no on it, but this is not happening, because we don’t have any Libertarians working on the ground in South Dakota, and the people who the LNC is paying to gather signatures for the LP are also getting paid at the same time to gather signatures for Top Two Primary, so their financial incentive is to not tell anyone the negative effects of Top Two Primary, but outside of the financial incentive, it s not like any of them really care anyway, as the only thing that they care about is how much money can they stuff into their pockets in the short term.

  19. paulie

    Hey Andy, instead of spending hours in the morning composing and leaving long off topic comments that are just annoying people, how about getting ready and getting out of the damn motel and out and about for the day? I am very, very frustrated here and rapidly losing my motivation to go anywhere today…yet again…. adding to the pattern. At this rate I can’t afford to stay in Oklahoma much longer, as I am losing way too much money being here.

  20. Seymour Results

    For those with flimsy minds who don’t care about the details in which the devil resides, I’ll just post your response for you. TL, DR. Now that that’s “out of the way” let the revelations begin.

    Chuck Moulton quoted me as Jake Witmer, so I’ll assume he knows something the rest of us don’t. Maybe he’s got a security camera installed in the library here. If that was the case, he would do well to review the footage more carefully. However, Jake Witmer’s interest in justice and intelligent organization coincide with mine, so with that in mind,

    Chuck Moulton wrote:

    Pro tip: When people want to pay you for doing one task, don’t complain that they’re not willing to pay you for doing a completely different task.

    It only looks like “a completely different task” because you know nothing about political strategy. This is precisely the thinking that has (a) been prevalent in the LP for 35 years and (b)prevented the LP from electing anyone to meaningful office, or building the LP to significant numbers, in 35 years.

    Chuck apparently doesn’t understand that all of the extra things being done were FREE ADD-ONS that were being done IN ADDITION TO the one charged task. Such as? (1) organizing and attending Libertarian meet-ups (2) promoting existing Libertarian meet-ups (3) handing out Libertarian literature (4) Handing out the local LP’s contact information when people had specific skills they wanted to donate, or run for office (5) Registering people to vote as Libertarians in all applicable States (It’s claimed by the polling companies that greater than 70% of people vote the way they are registered, and many people, if Libertarianism is explained to them sufficient to register them, simply go on to view themselves as “libertarians” …especially post-Ron-Paul). (6) Putting the full party slate on the ballot, when the higher-paid non-libertarian competition was only putting the presidential candidate on the ballot as an “independent” without the party label (which spells lack of name recognition for the LP, and thus less likelihood to actually win smaller-vote-total-requiring races for state office).

    Chuck Moulton wrote:

    Take money for the in-demand task and either

    Thanks for the career advice, trust-fund baby. I’m sure Jake would have loved to have taken more of the LP’s money, and continued to do jobs noone else would do, because they were too low-paying (but were actually designed to grow the LP). One such job was the collection of LP voter registrations in AZ, which Daryl Bonner refused to do, because it was “too difficult.” You can ask Jake Witmer about how difficult it was, because he and his brother gathered more LP voter regs there than anyone before or since. (Unless you count the “single issue” “marijuana legalization” ones gathered by Debra De La Roca alongside marijuana legalization initiative petition signatures. Debra was hired after Jake was put on a blacklist by the local AZ LP, and the reasons given continually shifted, indicating dishonesty in the AZ LP –which makes sense, because it’s very difficult to prevent a successful libertarian movement in AZ. The AZ LP has to try very hard not to accidentally do anything effective that might take on a life of its own. Jake was then thanked anonymously for the work he did in 2005 at the 2010 AZ LP convention, which resulted in the Coconino County LP not having to gather any more registrations. Debra is a non-libertarian mercenary who circulated the top 2 primary petition in AZ. These registrations usually fall off the books within 4 years of being gathered. Interestingly, in 2014, she was working for APC, and claimed that Andy Jacobs’ petition signatures on the IL Term Limits petition were at 50% validity, so his pay was docked. The same signers’ signature pairs for the Libertarian Party were counted as greater than 90% valid after a challenge by the Bruce Rauner campaign, which tried to knock the IL LP off the ballot. Mercenaries who conspire to screw over libertarians are the default in the “mercenary petitioning world” because independent contractor petitioners are notoriously easy to defraud. They are easily profiled as too transient and too poor to deal with a protracted court battle in a State they most likely cannot afford to return to. Add to that, the fact that their own party hires them last, and gives them the worst deals, and typically it makes the most sense to just get defrauded on half your pay.) Sadly, those jobs that grow the LP always had a know-nothing(or government plant) in charge of them, at the highest level, moving the LP activist away from nearly-conquered territory. Once this happens enough, you start to realize: all petitioners are viewed by pretentious ex-Republicans(the big-L LP “leadership”) as human garbage.

    This is actually a cultural problem in the LP, caused by the cultural difference between “conservatives” and “classical liberals”. For example, a cultural conservative Libertarian has only disdain for the idea of Obama as a “community organizer.” (But what of consistently voluntaryist libertarian “community organizer”? It’s all the same to them. They despise people like Andy, because they resent collective organization of any kind, even if it’s voluntary, and even if it’s designed to correct problems of systemic injustice. They don’t care about injustice to the poor, or freedom from police brutality: they just want to be taxed a few points less on their income, capital gains, and real-estate transactions.) Cultural conservatives want to conserve the past, and have only a shaky conception of where the future is headed. Such people tend to be technologically illiterate, outside (sometimes) a narrow area of their own expertise. One of the technologies they are illiterate about is the technical design of robust political organizations, replete with the “spontaneous order” Hayek wrote about. Such political organizations only survive when they are comprised of people at every level who agree with the group’s goal. The LP is idiotic to believe that it can survive by hiring non-libertarian mercenaries to do their public outreach, for many reasons, too many to list here. Signature gathering is inherently “public outreach,” and can be bad(the petition circulator cannot explain what libertarianism is, much less tailor the explanation to the individual asking), or good(the petitioner explains what libertarians are in a way tailored to the individual). In any case, this is not the time for a detailed examination of this deep-seated problem of cultural conservatism and its incomprehension of emergence, as it applies to the LP.

    Chuck Moulton wrote:

    a) do the other task for free as a hobby or

    Remarkable! You seem to have the same lack of ability to comprehend the situation, and dismissive animosity toward building the LP that the idiotic LP leadership has. Where did you aquire this dismissive, condescending view? Did you suck it out of Bill Redpath’s ass, or come up with it independently? Don’t bother answering, nobody cares.

    b) don’t do the other task at all.

    I’m not surprised you’d discourage the (useful but incomplete) list of party-building activities in my first reply above. You’re part of the LP’s “leadership” and you are discouraging all of the activities that could grow the libertarian party, if the LP was interested in growing. Go gargle with a broken lightbulb, idiot.

    Chuck Moulton wrote:

    Another pro tip: If you are a colossal asshole all of the time, not only will you find it hard to convert people to your point of view, but you will also actively alienate people from your point of view, thus making it harder for your polite, reasonable allies to gain converts.

    Fuck off and die, you stupid piece of shit. I was polite, professional, hard-working, and dedicated for 15+ years. It got me the same treatment it’s gotten every other libertarian activist: placed into the “Will work slightly cheaper than the mercenaries; call as a last resort, so as not to arouse undue suspicion” category. You’re playing at politics, you’re part of a anti-competent party, and you’re a stupid pretentious prick. Being polite doesn’t work with stupid pretentious pricks. They need to be avoided or excised like the organizational cancer they are.

    There’s no reasoning with you, you condescending turd. You were a condescending ignorant jerk to Andy Jacobs, and I called you out on it. Take your free advice and shove it up your silly ass.

  21. Seymour Results

    For example, Paulie has made several good points about South Dakota and the top-2 petition. Based on Paulie’s remarks I found myself wanting to contact Redpath, Sarwark, and other LNC members to lobby them about the matter.

    Why don’t you go give paulie a nice big sloppy kiss? You found yourself wanting to take the gun out of the LP’s mouth, after it has repeatedly pulled the trigger? AMAZING! STOP THE PRESSES EVERYONE! Chuck Moulton “found himself wanting” the LP to stop shitting on its best workers, and destroying itself by hiring its incompetent dire enemies to do its outreach! …but then he changed his mind and decided to continue supporting the death of the LP, and we should all give a shit!

    Oh, Chuck, Ohhh, Chuck, could you please “lobby” the LNC, to treat its former, now-blacklisted employees with a modicum of dignity and respect? Could you please, oooohhh, please, could you lobby them to stop awarding no-bid contracts and huge advances in payment to the dire enemies of the libertarian cause, the for-hire-to-any-job-no-matter-how-anti-liberty Charles “Chaz” Tuttle and Daryl Bonner? Could you please? I’m hanging on every word you write! All of us are! You’re so important! Your libertarian party is a lean mean machine that hasn’t elected anyone to State Legislature (other than the tiny districts in NH) since …1980.

    Or wait, maybe the fact that you have to “lobby” the LP at all, to act like a moral entity (nevermind an effective libertarian entity) should be telling you it’s too late for you or the current LP leadership to be taken even slightly seriously!

    The LP, like your flimsy self, is controlled opposition. That you’re “considering” crawling when its long past time to run just shows what a shell of a human being you truly are.

    Will you “lobby” to get libertarians taken off the 8-year-old blacklist, Chuck? Will you “lobby” the LNC and Bill Fedpath to stop showering Daryl Bonner’s zero-outreach petitioning operation with money? Will you reach out to all the activists the LP drove out of the LP? How far will your lobbying efforts go, Chuck? Will they go so far as to make the LP into an effective organization? Gosh, if you knew how to do that, why haven’t you done it already? Could it be you know nothing but think you walk on water because you’ve spent so much of your life in school?

    Gosh, what would have happened if your “lobbying” efforts weren’t so successful, now that you’ve FINALLY, AT LONG LAST briefly considered directing them toward the bare survival of the LP?

    But now that the colossal asshole Jake Witmer is throwing a temper tantrum foaming at the mouth and insulting me, I have no desire to get off my ass and say or do anything about the topic.

    Good. Fuck you, and fuck the LP. …But please, don’t insult anyone’s intelligence and pretend you’ve ever made a good political decision or “found yourself wanting” to do anything meaningful for the Libertarian Party, you armchair warrior. So you decided to continue your past, present, and future record of passively accepting a nonfunctional LP? …Amazing! Holy shit, I don’t believe it!

    So, Seymour Results has ruined the party? It was all rosy until I showed up and caused you to not care about the basic principles of truth and justice. Of course, before that, I really noticed how much you cared. Before that, you were a burgeoning voice for fairness and intelligence in the LP hiring process, and that had resulted in focused activism in several State Legislative districts in low-population States with tiny legislatures. Before that, you were a strategic mastermind who always stuck up for the over-burdened and uncredited “little guy.”

    Or not.

    Oh, no, wait. Chuck Moulton! You’re the guy who condescendingly took the side of money and power and shat all over the dedicated and uncredited actual LP activists, who only manage what minor successes they’ve had in spite of Bill Redpath and his other sycophants.

  22. Seymour Results

    It’s not that I disagree about the top-2 absurdity… it’s that my time and political capital are limited and valuable, and I will not be using them to support the agenda of a colossal asshole.

    Your entire demeanor here speaks volumes. You just don’t get it, do you? The South Dakota abortion isn’t not some random, unavoidable “absurdity” that gosh-dern-it, just accidentally happened. Bill Redpath and the LNC that delegates to him had to try hard to purposefully fuck things up this badly. They had to make a strong effort to keep LP activists in the dark about the no-bid contract, they had to hurriedly offer unprincipled, socialist-by-default assholes no-bid AND exclusive contracts, before Andy found out about the job anyway.

    “Chaz” Tuttle has never been an LP member. He clearly doesn’t give a shit about a single pro-liberty principle, as evidenced by his circulating a petition to make it impossible for the SD LP to ever win an election, while simultaneously circulating the LP petition, thus giving the misleading impression that Libertarians support the initiative.

    This is fucking high treason, and you dare act like you’d be doing us a favor toreverse your opinion on Andy Jacobs’ “drama” after he uncovers it?! …Something you, by your prior words and actions, were previously making more difficult to uncover, and trying to “sweep under the rug”?

    Now you care? FUCK YOU, SHITHEAD.

    Now, most people on the LNC can truthfully claim to be completely incompetent and unaware of the basics of running a Libertarian Party petition drive, or for that matter, a libertarian political party, in general. Most people on the LNC are unaware of who the LP has hired in the past, and how they performed. …But can Bill Redpath make that claim? When Redpath was interviewed in 1995 by the Harvard’s John F. Kennedy School of Government, he said:

    Boosting Grassroots Interest
    As for our own state party here in Virginia, ballot access is going to be a very big effort next year, and there’s going to be a lot of the attention of the activities in the state party will be focused on getting signatures to get our candidate on the ballot. There’s no question about it. It also gives you a chance to get the word out about your organization. Some petitioners are good about that, some paid petitioners that is, and with volunteers that’s frequently the case, that they’re doing it not only to get signatures but also to spread the word about the party.

    So, here Bill seems to indicate that he favors hiring LP activists over purely mercenary petitioners. What changed? Did he get jaded? Did the FBI start blackmailing him? Does he get kickbacks from Daryl Bonner and Scott Kohlhaas? Is he himself an agent provocateur? Is he just strategically inept and disloyal in business? Or was it worth screwing over several libertarian activists rather than deal with a very minor and easily-resolved IRS paperwork issue with Andy(that happened prior to 2008) that took about 30 minutes to resolve? When Bill has spoken, in person, to several petitioners I’ve interviewed, he’s said he prefers to hire actual libertarians because they “tended to do a better job, hand out pamphlets, etc.” Has he changed his position? It would appear he has. Or is he just too uncaring to notice that Daryl Bonner, Chaz Tuttle, Emmett Reistroffer, etc. are not principled libertarians, and don’t give a rat’s ass how the LP is presented to the public?*(see next post) Because Redpath literally makes every important decision about how the LP’s limited funds should be spent, and most funds are spent on ballot access, which he controls, I used to think these were interesting questions. …But you can only meet a wall of uninformed, low-intelligence apathy so many times before you conclude that (1) everyone on the LNC is either a government plant or (2) a Moultonesque condescending and pretentious know-nothing jerk, or (3) doesn’t have a clue about what’s going on and doesn’t care (or know) how to get to the heart of any matter.

    I urge anyone on the LNC who is even slightly well-meaning to drive out to states where the LP is petitioning, and observe the petitioners. Sign the petitions as if you’re a resident who doesn’t know anything about the LP. Be critical of “something you’ve heard about Libertarians” and ask for clarification about what the LP stands for on some issue or set of issues.Then think through whether the petitioner would have convinced you to become a Libertarian or further investigate them with a positive view in mind. I guarantee that unless they’re a libertarian themselves, this will not be the case.

    …And that is one major reason why the LP has failed to thrive for 35 years.

    Investigate what Dick Randolph did in Alaska in 1980, when people in Alaska were re-electing libertarians in races where more than 10,000 votes were cast. Randolph’s petitioners cared immensely about making a state income tax illegal in Alaska. That was his “foot in the door” that won voters to the Libertarian Party cause. Once the income tax was defeated, and Randolph attempted to run for governor, the GOP offered to allow him to run as GOP, then yanked support from him (lesson: never trust political parties, especially those other than your own). The D/R central bankers brought in a lot of out-of-state government employees and used election campaign finance laws against the AK LP. Had they not, AK might now be libertarian.

    The same strategy could be replicated in every single I & R State. Instead of empowering Libertarian activists, the LP disempowers them, so they are not in a position to take advantage of pro-liberty I & R efforts.

  23. Chuck Moulton

    Chuck Moulton wrote:

    Another pro tip: If you are a colossal asshole all of the time, not only will you find it hard to convert people to your point of view, but you will also actively alienate people from your point of view,

    More examples above from Jake Witmer.

  24. Seymour Results

    *A refresher on the “Drama” Moulton objects to: In 2011, when Emmett Reistroffer’s useless petitioner, “Lughead,” (I know it sounds implausible, but I’m not making it up) was lying about how many signatures he had collected in North Dakota, Andy, Paul, Mark, and Jake were in North Dakota actually gathering signatures for LP full party ballot access. Andy assumed (thanks to his past experiences of hearing useless petitioners report false “rounded to nearest 500 numbers”) that “Lughead” was lying (assuming the financial risk that his signatures would not be paid for), and finished the full party ballot access petition prior to the early Spring deadline for full party access (64 days before the primary election, which is on the 2nd Tuesday in June). This allowed the ND LP to place Eric Olson on the ballot for congress. Even if everything went as Redpath planned, Emmett Reistroffer would collect an override for signatures collected by a low-functioning non-libertarian petitioner in another state (Reistroffer himself was in his warm apartment in Colorado –he did absolutely no work on the petition in ND, neither coordinating it, nor overseeing the work of his worthless employee –which isn’t a bad gig, if you can get it). Redpath fought hard to keep Andy, Paul, Mark, Jake unpaid, while ADVANCING full payment to Reistroffer AFTER his(Bill Redpath’s) being informed that they(Andy, et al.) had already been hired directly by the ND State LP. Observers who are more intelligent than Chuck Moulton should this through carefully: the already-hired-by-the-ND-LP guys who are doing the dirty work in North Dakota in the sub-zero Winter time, in order to result in Full Party Status, (so the LP doesn’t need to run Gary Johnson as an independent without a party label, in his childhood home state), are getting paid only as they turn in their signatures (which is fine, but a far worse deal than the competition got), and having to fight the national branch of the political party they belong to, to get paid –in honor of their contract– at all! Not only was Redpath prepared to screw them over, his actions would have forced the ND LP to dishonor its contract with Andy, et al. AGAIN, FOR THE SLOW / CHUCK MOULTON: The guy who is not even in North Dakota, not(then) a libertarian, and with a history of being a far lower quality worker (hires drunks, such as Kraig Kesling, who woke up drunk in a woman’s restroom twice, and was arrested both times, thus being the first offenses in a chain reaction that would get petitioners banned from prime petitioning locations) is advanced full payment in full for the job, just to make certain that the signatures already gathered by solid libertarians Andy, Paul, Mark, and Jake would be a huge hassle to pay, because payment would need to be rescinded from Emmett, (also causing him hardship in the deal). Typically, this sort of clusterfuck leads to Bill Redpath acting like the stressed out bureaucrat who demands sudden action for a crisis that he himself caused (think back to the beginning of this, 2006-Aug 01, 2008, Scott Kohlhaas –after which time Jake Witmer and anyone who defended Andy when Kohlhaas tried to defraud him was put on the “do not rehire, too much honesty/drama” list). So why the huge hard-on to pay LP money to Emmett? Why ink a contract with him, and advance him money (which never happens with Andy, Paul, Mark, Jake, or Trent) after the better quality team with a long, proven track record is already in the State, contracted with the State LP, and banging it out? …One more thing: Emmett had only agreed to put the ND LP’s presidential candidate (Gary Johnson) on the ballot as an independent. So, if Redpath had gotten his way, Gary Johnson would have been listed as an independent (no Libertarian Party label, in the state he grew up in!) AND, AGAIN Eric Olson would not have been on the ballot at all for the congressional race, reducing visibility of the LP in a low-population initiative state. All of the prior was 100% irrational. If you don’t work in ballot access, and don’t understand basic political strategy, perhaps you don’t understand how irrational it was, and how there was no possible benevolent interpretation of the events that cast Redpath in any good light. Although it seems I’ve talked some shit about Reistroffer’s employee here, I don’t dislike Emmet himself. He’s the only one of the prior mercenaries who can make any claim to have principles of any kind, and has since gone on to become a marijuana business consultant in Colorado. Prior to that, he even joined the LP, and briefly ran for office in SD, before getting his current gig as a marijuana business consultant. At the time all of this transpired, though, he treated petitioning as “something to be delegated to anyone willing to do the task as cheap as possible” (lowest-common-denominator “mercenary” petitioners). Good for him: His only “offense” was being offered a great exclusive/”monopoly” deal and advance payment by Bill Redpath without having done any work (and only promising to do a vastly inferior job, providing far less ballot access itself). It’s not Emmett’s fault Bill offered him a vastly better deal than any more experienced LP petitioner, with vastly better terms and conditions, and advanced payment. For all the strategy-challenged dipshits like Chuck Moulton who are reading this, this is important, since Moulton, Redpath, et al. have indicated that Libertarian Activists who are angry at being horribly screwed over are guilty of “emphasizing their hobby of building the LP” over the “paid gig” of “gaining ballot access.”

    …And that’s why libertarians can’t create a political movement worth a shit. 99.99% of people are not willing to continuously risk arrest, unless they’re being paid. However, the police don’t care much about people who are just paid shills: such people don’t challenge the local political establishment they are protecting. The police care about motivated ideologues who are on the street, talking to people who are currently submissive tax-slaves, convincing them that there’s “a better way, an America where the police and prosecutors aren’t judge, jury, and executioner.” The police can tell the difference, and so can the average voter. Even if the average voter would have supported libertarian ideas enough to register as a Libertarian, they’ll never know it if they run into “Lughead” or Kraig Kesling.

    Keep in mind that Redpath’s actions were seemingly designed just to purposefully unmake Andy’s already-in-progress deal with the ND LP; Redpath was fully aware of the situation at all stages, and took deliberate, informed action. When he wired the money necessary to pay for the drive to Emmett, he knew that all the LP activists were in ND and currently working, signatures in hand, in the freezing cold, paying their motels out of pocket, with no advance. Andy’s deal was “optimal,” from a party-building perspective: (1+)dealing with a responsible State LP, (2+)decentralizing control to an independent state LP that was getting (3+)free outreach and (4+)full party ballot access. (5+)Honoring the ND LP’s word to already-hired contractors, building a reliable reputation for the ND LP as employers.

    Redpath’s “revised deal” was entirely stupid and didn’t make sense at any level: (1-)centralize authority to the National LP Office, (2-)put the presidential-candidate-only on the ballot as an independent without LP label, (3-)put him on the ballot too late in the summer to campaign, (4-)put stress on later ballot access drives by adding another late-deadline state to the several other late-season state deadlines, something Redpath himself says is bad strategy, and should be avoided in the Harvard JFK School interview. Here are Redpath’s exact words:

    “It’s pen on paper, it’s gathering signatures and you need to get on top of it as soon as possible and you need to do as much as possible as early as possible, given the funds that are available.”

    ), and (5-) have the petitioning done by a disreputable non-libertarian who had failed to collect a single signature (and never did collect a single signature) –thus endangering the whole drive.

    Note: the pluses and minuses prior don’t “cancel each other out” they mutually-support simply leaving in place the existing deal, and not behaving like a sociopathic loon and trying to screw over long-established small and big-L Libertarian activists. Now, what if Andy had been gullible and taken Redpath, Reistroffer, or Lughead at their word? HE WOULD HAVE BEEN BLAMED FOR THE LP FAILING TO GET ON THE BALLOT. HIS PEOPLE IN ND WOULD HAVE NOT MADE ANY MONEY AT ALL BUT GOTTEN STUCK WITH HOTEL EXPENSES, ON WHAT WOULD THEN HAVE BEEN A LOW-PAYING JOB. REDPATH CALLED THEM ALL, ASKING THEM TO STOP COLLECTING SIGNATURES! (NOBODY ON EARTH CAN PRODUCE AN EXPLANATION FOR THAT WHICH CASTS REDPATH IN A FAVORABLE LIGHT. IT MAKES NO SENSE, IF YOU UNDERSTAND THE RELEVANT FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS.) THE FABRICATED “DRAMA” BILL REDPATH WAS “PUTTING UP WITH” WOULD SUDDENLY APPEAR TO HAVE PRODUCED A BAD OUTCOME DUE TO A FAILURE THAT COULD NOW PLAUSIBLY BE BLAMED ON ANDY ALONE. THOSE UNFAMILIAR WITH PETITIONING WOULD HAVE HAD SEEMINGLY LEGITIMATE COMPLAINTS ABOUT ANDY, MUDDYING HIS REPUTATION.

    Think the prior through. I know it’s a lot to read and process, (especially if you know nothing about how petitioning is usually done), and sure, nobody with much sense now cares about the LP because it conducts itself in the prior fashion, but the facts are damning, and I did a good job of including the relevant facts(which are not in dispute). If you dispute these facts, ask Andy to expound, or ask all the people who were there: at least a few of them aren’t going to be FBI plants. I personally don’t care, since one minute of my time is ten times more valuable than Chuck Moulton’s entire life, but I also don’t like charlatans robbing the LP donor base blind, and squandering their money. …And I like it even less when condescending, pretentious, colossal assholes like Chuck Moulton come to those charlatans’ defense.

    In 2008 and 2012, there were far more egregious offenses, too numerous to name here, in Pennsylvania, another state where mercenary Democrat petitioners were given huge no-bid contracts that made them comparatively far wealthier than the many financially-struggling libertarian activists named in this post. One such offense resulted in the LP burning a huge amount of money on invalid petition signatures, and then on a lawsuit in PA. John Karr of the PA LP noted that 43% (and less) of the petition signatures collected by Daryl Bonner and his crew were valid. (Those who know Bonner also know that he did, and continues to do, zero effective outreach for the LP.) Interestingly, Chuck Moulton assisted John Karr with his defense of the signatures, and also reported that Bonner’s validity was incredibly low. This however, hasn’t stopped Redpath from sending every contract to Bonner, often making LP activists with better track records work “under” Bonner, paying him an override on every signature they collect. Again: Anyone with even a flimsy comprehension of human psychology would notice that this is psychologically calculated to drive actual libertarians out of the LP. And what possible reason could there be to have a more experienced person who provides multiple streams of value placed under the “management” of a less experienced person? When this happened to Andy in 2008 (when he was placing 2 candidates on the ballot and being paid less than Bonner was being paid to place 1 candidate on the ballot) that should have set off a thousand alarm bells at the LP National Office.

    But it didn’t set off any, because the LP has no immune system, no strategic protocol, and only one person who even knows how bad he’s fucking over every libertarian activist: Bill Redpath.

  25. Seymour Results

    Chuck Moulton wrote:

    A third pro-tip: If you don’t sign your name to your comments, that is an indication that you don’t have much conviction in your beliefs and are afraid of engaging in a real discussion.

    So says Chuck Moulton. Yet, from the camp of people whose strong convictions are obvious, mine appear rock solid, and the facts are on my side. However, they unfortunately landed on the quicksand of the Libertarian Party, so I’ll just let the truth of my words ring loudly in the whatever minds are reading them. I’ll also have to take pride in my non-LP work, and chalk my wasted LP work up to “top-down fuckery that’s beyond my control” and “a learning experience.”

    Ideally, the people reading these words are young people trying to decide between working for the Libertarian Party and working for the Democrats or Republicans. Ideally, they smarten up and decide that the major party vehicles make more sense to infiltrate, as libertarians, since the LP is full of the same kind of sociopaths the Ds and Rs are filled with, with a few exceptions: the Ds and Rs don’t ineptly or purposefully destroy their own team. (They need the team to exist in the next election cycle.) The Ds and Rs regularly win meaningful elections to high office. They reward, and can measure, good results. The D and R Parties are simply vehicles for individual political ideas, most of which are bad, but the cost of getting on the ballot is greatly reduced. …And you won’t have as many idiotic saboteurs in leadership positions in the D and R camps: they will all be obviously unprincipled thieving sociopaths, but once a primary is won, they will generally “close ranks” and work to get the winner elected. …Unlike the LP, which will repeatedly work to sabotage its own candidates, its own workers, its own existence. Much as you, Chuck Moulton have advocated in your condescending lecturing of Andy.

    (Is there any libertarian in the LP who does more grassroots outreach than Andy? Not lately. He’s the very last person a competent “intellectual leader” in the LP would talk down to.)

    It’s obvious to everyone with a history in the party who you are due to your writing style, allusions to petitioning history, philosophy, and issue advocacy.

    As if anyone in the LP (other than a few FBI agents, gov-manipulated informants, government spooks, etc.) gives a shit about what the outcome of LP actions are. It’s obvious from those outcomes that they don’t, at least not in any “non-Hobby” sense of the term. It’s a parlor game to them, they’re playing at politics. The LP is so unimportant and inept that it probably bores the shit out of the NSA, etc. being required to spy on them.

    If someone has a speculation about my identity, they’re free to tell you who I am, and you’re free to take their word, or free to speculate on your own. You’re also free to run writing analyses on my writing and try to narrow it down, although since the LP lacks the mental resources to avoid hiring socialists to do its outreach, that’s probably beyond their skill-set. Then again, there’s a fair chance the LP leadership is mostly FBI personnel, so anything’s possible.

    The last thing I’d want to do is interfere with anyone’s freedom of speech on an “anything goes” internet forum like this one.

    That’s all free advice. My time is valuable, so I may have to charge you for my great advice if repetition is needed in the future.

    If your time was valuable, you wouldn’t squander it making douchebag condescending remarks about Andy Jacobs on IPR, dickwad. You also wouldn’t spend it defending the worst habits and characteristics of the Libertarian Party.

    …If your time was REALLY valuable, you wouldn’t even be involved with the Libertarian Party, which I suspect is why people like Peter Thiel haven’t gotten involved with us at all. Milton Lukins, Jake Witmer, Andy Jacobs and many other petitioners have identified thousands of purposefully-unexploited opportunities for the LP, but the “leadership” knows best, and it takes money to get to useless LNC meetings that could easily be done over Skype. If your time was even slightly valuable, you wouldn’t be shitting on Andy Jacobs, Milton Lukins, Paul Frankel, Jake Witmer, Bob Lynch, et al as bringing “drama” to the petitioning process. You know what’s really unnecessary “drama”?: Petitioners circulating socialist petitions while simultaneously circulating LP petitions (this has now happened dozens of times under Redpath’s direct “management” while the big and small-L libertarian petitioners with spotless track records were excluded from consideration, and not even allowed to bid on the process). Want more real drama?: Petitioners lying about what the LP petition is and does, grossly misrepresenting the LP’s policies, in order to get people to sign (this has happened in every single case where Redpath didn’t hire LP activists as petitioners, as observant frequenters of this site know very well). And now, the most extreme, and in-your-face insult yet: a socialist petitioner given a lucrative, “no-bid” petition contract who is simultaneously petitioning to abolish all third parties in South Dakota.

    If you’re an LP donor, and this level of incompetence doesn’t make your blood boil, then you don’t have a fucking pulse.

    And you know what’s really interesting? Someone called those petition companies and ratted Andy Jacobs out (for the “offense” of calling attention to LP ineptitude and self-destruction), and those two unprincipled coordinators (who occasionally have pro-liberty initiative work to offer to actual libertarians) told him they’ve blacklisted him from future work (possible future small-L libertarian initiatives) because of it! So, Andy does what’s right, what’s intelligent, and what makes sense for the LP, trying to prevent the LP from committing suicide, and gets even more financially punished for it! ..by “his own” party.

    And that made Chuck Moulton so angry he almost stuck up for what was right. Chuck, ease down, you radical firebrand! Don’t you think you’re being too demanding? There’s a place for compromise, you know!

    …So you thoughtlessly take Bill Redpath’s side, and shit on Andy, insinuating that he’s a drama queen who charges more than the competition. …Which is funny, because the “strictly mercenary” or “mercenary only” or “mercenary minus libertarian” who was awarded the LP contract in South Dakota, (and is also working the top-2 primary petition in South Dakota) was awarded the deal in a NO-BID contract. Do you know what a no-bid contract is, genius? If Andy wasn’t even allowed to bid on the contract, why do you assume he’s “more expensive” and comes with “drama”?

    Maybe it’s because he once objected to self-reporting to the IRS, and was then blacklisted forever, in spite of several years of dedicated libertarian activism that required Bill Redpath to file a different form with the IRS, which Andy himself provided. That sounds like a great reason to put a dedicated activist on the “do not call” list. So why do you really assume Andy is “more expensive” and comes with “drama”?

    Could it be because you’re a “colossal asshole”?

    At this point, you’d do well to take your head out of your ass, and notice that people with long track records of doing ADDITIONAL work FOR FREE, BECA– USE THEY WANT TO GROW THE LP, have every right to be mad as hell when THEY ARE BLACKLISTED, and NO-BID CONTRACTS are given to people who are ACTIVELY AND KNOWINGLY DESTROYING THE LP.

    The fact that you dare to criticize Andy for pointing this out was simply too much for me sit by and silently accept. Sorry if I’ve got this thing called “a conscience.”

    I’m not sitting by the phone waiting for the LP to call me. I’m not trying to be hired by the LP. There’s no more work they can withhold from me. They’ve paid Daryl Bonner over $200K to sabotage the LP brand in numerous States. Jake Witmer and Andy Jacobs are living hand-to-mouth, mostly surviving off of non-LP work. Daryl Bonner voted for Obama, and is a Democrat, except when he’s around Bill Redpath. He brings noone into the LP, nor is he even asked/required to. The LP has already done their best to prevent Jake from following his dream of building a libertarian movement in the USA, and they’ve already sabotaged his reputation. They can do him no more harm than they have already, and obviously intend to do by their actions. They have basically acted like the socialist caricatures of backstabbing employers so familiar to libertarian activists. …The irony isn’t lost on me.

    In fact, all you need to do to get libertarian work is put on an unprincipled manner, gather signatures any prior petition drive(libertarian-in-nature or not), and make sure you’re unfamiliar with libertarianism, and don’t care about generating the result of libertarianism. If you do this, you’ll get a call from Bill Redpath -he likes people who are easily manipulated and don’t know enough to hold him accountable. This drives out everyone who knows anything about the LP, or actually wants it to get off the ground. This is the way the US Post Office conducts itself. Well, actually no, it’s worse, because the Post Office doesn’t hold itself up as a pathway out of wretched tyranny.

    The LP is a hopelessly dysfunctional den of vipers. (Perhaps some of them work for the FBI, and thus cannot really be considered “LP,” but that’s idle speculation on my part, simply because they couldn’t do more damage to the LP, on as regular a basis, if this were the case.) The LP falsely portrays itself as a pro-freedom organization, when people identical to your cookie-cutter self have made it a cesspool of backwardness incapable of electing a single State Legislator or County Sheriff.

    Take over a full State Legislature and nullify laws at the State level? It simply will not happen with people like yourself anywhere near positions of influence, much less titles of authority. For this reason, it makes a lot of sense for me to make you so angry you never influence Redpath or anyone else in the LP ever again. Ideally, you will commit seppuku in atonement for your empty-headed derision and allow the possibility that the LP will correct its course in your absence.

    I’ll have to call Jake Witmer up and tell him that Chuck Moulton called him a colossal asshole, so he can pin that badge to his chest and wear it with pride. Which would be his sole accomplishment from 15 years of working for inept LPers like Chuck Moulton, Bill Redpath, and Scott Kohlhaas. What are you going to do, call him up and threaten to continuenot hiring him? ..put him further on the blacklist than he already is?

    Wake up, Chuck.

  26. Andy

    “and was then blacklisted forever, ”

    I am working on an LP petition drive in Oklahoma RIGHT NOW. I have worked on a total of 38 LP ballot access drives in 20 states. I worked on two LP ballot access drives last year. I worked on three LP ballot access drives the year before that, and I worked on 6 LP ballot access drives the year before that.

    This is not a case of actual Libertarian petitioners being blacklisted per say, as it is a case of actual Libertarian petitioners being under-utilized, under-appreciated, disrespected, stabbed in the back, generally mistreated, etc…

    It is not just about me. Others have gone through this kind of crap as well.

    Another issue here which is not being addressed is the LACK OF RECRUITING of more Libertarians to work on petition drives and voter registration drives (the LP rarely does voter registration drives, but if the party had its act together more, it would do a lot more of this).

    There has clearly been an over-reliance, and I would say, an unnecessary over-reliance on non-libertarian mercenary petitioners. There have been a few non-libertarian mercenaries who have been undeservedly handed “sweetheart” deals with the LP. This has been something that has been destructive to the party in my opinion, and my opinion is backed up with facts, based on years of experience and observation.

  27. Andy

    “I’ll have to call Jake Witmer ”

    It should be pointed out that Jake has done a lot to spread information about jury nullification. He has spent his own money on multiple occasions to print up cards that have information about jury nullification, and he has handed out thousands of these cards to people during the course of petition drives. Jake has informed literally thousands of people about their rights as jurors.

    I would much rather have a guy like Jake out collecting signatures for the Libertarian Party and handing out jury rights information than have people out collecting signatures for the Libertarian Party who do not really give a rats behind about the party or ideology, and who will happily gather signatures for a Top Two Primary initiative which will prevent Libertarian Party candidates from appearing on general election ballot in future elections should it pass, as is happening right now in South Dakota.

  28. Illegal Schmillegal

    The thread escalated because it was called for. If you don’t care enough about liberty to stop the people who oppose it, then you won’t have it.

    In fact, if you’re a worthless prick like Chuck Moulton who thinks he’s doing people a favor by acting in accord with basic moral principles, your movement literally cannot succeed, and you are the reason why.

    Food for thought, to all those who have sat on the LNC and passively (or ignorantly) accepted the LP’s failure for lack of will to buck Bill Redpath’s whims. And no, the answer isn’t to “choose between statewide and local” ballot access. The answer is to seriously ask whether we can do both.

    It turns out we can. And we were. FOR LESS THAN WE ARE NOW PAYING ACCOMPLISHING ONLY THE LESS EFFECTIVE OPTION.

    THIS IS PURPOSEFUL DESTRUCTION OF THE LP. IF YOU CAN’T SEE THAT, YOU’RE NOT PAYING SUFFICIENT ATTENTION. IF YOU DON’T PAY SUFFICIENT ATTENTION DOLLARS DONATED TO THE LP PAY FOR DEMOCRATS TO TRAVEL THE USA AND PUT ANTI-FREEDOM INITIATIVES SPONSORED BY BLOOMBERG ON THE BALLOT.

    If the prior letters were ten-foot-high, I’m not sure it would penetrate the skulls of most “Libertarians.”

    But I gave it a shot anyway.

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