Libertarian Party and Green Party Achieve Victory in Debates Case

From the LNC Business List:

Level the Playing Field won its case, in which the LNC is a plaintiff, in US District court against the FEC. This could lead to forcing the CPD to change its criteria for inclusion in presidential debates.

The order states:

“The FEC is ORDERED to reconsider the evidence and allegations and issue a new decision consistent with this Opinion “within 30 days, failing which the complainant[s] may bring, in the name of such complainant[s], a civil action to remedy the violation involved in the original complaint.” The FEC is FURTHER ORDERED to reconsider the Petition for Rulemaking and issue a new decision consistent with this Opinion within sixty days.”

Carla Howell

Political Director
National Libertarian Party
202-333-0008 x 222

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About Caryn Ann Harlos

Caryn Ann Harlos is a paralegal residing in Castle Rock, Colorado and presently serving as the Communications Director for the Libertarian Party of Colorado, Colorado State Coordinator for the Libertarian Party Radical Caucus, as well as Region 1 Representative on the Libertarian National Committee. Articles posted should NOT be considered the opinions of the LPCO, LPRC, or LNC nor always those of Caryn Ann Harlos personally. Caryn Ann's goal is to provide information on items of interest and (sometimes) controversy about the Libertarian Party and minor parties in general not to necessarily endorse the contents.

106 thoughts on “Libertarian Party and Green Party Achieve Victory in Debates Case

  1. John

    Good news. Hope it holds up in appeals.

    I bet Trump will refuse to debate a third party candidate regardless (unless he thinks it’s to his advantage). He may even use it as an excuse to refuse to debate the Democratic nominee, especially if he is in the lead.

  2. Tylor Reinhardt

    Downloaded and reading. Thanks for posting the actual document. Wish more people posted the actual documents like this more often.

  3. Stewart Flood

    You mean conveniently after the election in which our candidate (L) would have destroyed years of gain by activists when he looked confused, said “duhhhh…ummm”, then looked toward the audience and called out “I’ll let Bill Weld answer that one…”

    Johnson could not debate. He couldn’t even debate other Libertarians — even the wacky ones! (Not intending to sound negative toward all the other candidates in the race, but there were a few really wacky candidates this cycle)

  4. Anthony Dlugos

    “He couldn’t even debate other Libertarians — even the wacky ones! ”

    Yet he easily won the nomination. Couldn’t have been that bad.

  5. Andy

    Johnson won on the 2nd ballot, and he only got 55%. His campaign for the nomination spent 10 times as much as the other candidates combined, and he only won because his campaign stacked the convention with the most delegates.

    This is hardly what I would call an easy victory.

  6. Jay Wildwood

    I agree with Stewart Flood. It would have been far better to have had William Weld at the top of the ticket. Hopefully, the Libertarians will nominate him as the Presidential candidate in 2020, and he will make the debates. I believe he would hold his own against Trump and anyone the Democrats are likely to field. Has anyone approached him about running yet?

  7. Jay Wildwood

    Johnson was indeed rather disappointing and incoherent. The other candidates he defeated for his party’s nomination were embarrassing. He turned out to be as well, despite having somehow managed to get elected Governor twice and having built a successful business from the ground up. Perhaps he had suffered a mental setback more recently. I understand that Johnson was a CEO of a marijuana business, so perhaps he was sampling his own wares too much. Trump is of course a disaster, much as I expected. Evan McMullin was the best candidate in the race, but unfortunately on far too few ballots to make a real dent.

  8. Jonathan Jaech

    The opinion by Judge Chutkan could hardly be more critical of the FEC’s handling of the Petition. Whether it merely causes them to invent more rationalizations for the status quo that might provide handles for future opposition, or, perhaps more hopefully, to chip away at the 15% rule in at least some minimal way calculated to appease the DC Circuit, this is a significant order and opinion. Thanks for posting the links to the most relevant documents.

    Anybody have a guess at what effect, if any, the change in administrations will have on the FEC administrators charged with reconsidering the Petition? Former FEC head Donald McGahn is now White House Counsel, and can reasonably be expected to take an interest in how the rehearing is handled; this is not an inconsequential issue for Presidential politics. Appointed by Bush II, McGahn resigned from the FEC in 2013 and so was not involved in the first hearing of the Petition. He does lean distinctly libertarian compared to the average politican or bureaucrat, but like nearly everybody else in D.C., is part of the bi-partisan duopoly. I’ll guess that McGahn will take note of Chutkan’s opinion and exert his influence one way or another. He has not taken a public position on the 15% rule, that I have been able to find.

  9. Bondurant

    Weld endorsed Obama in ’08. Romney in ’12. In the ’16 cycle he bounced around various GOP candidates. When someone was dumb enough to invite him into the LP fold without vetting he then went around endorsing Hillary instead of his own ticket.

    He also supports gun control, eminent domain and the Patriot Act. Bill Weld is terrible for the LP and America.

    Pertaining to the topic at hand, we’ll see what happens going forward. Not too sure this will have any legitimate traction but it’s nice too a favorable ruling in this case.

  10. Anthony Dlugos

    Weld did not endorse Hillary. Said she was better than then meglomaniac we have as president now.

    Not a big deal that a Libertarian was at one time a Republican who endorsed Republican. Not sure if you think Libertarians grow in petry dishes and come out as fully formed perfect Libertarians or something.

    No potential VP candidate we had in Orlando was perfect. I accounted for his shortcomings on philosophy, as I accounted for the shortcoming of other candidates for the VP slot, for example, zero experience, no clue who they were, or guys who expressed money troubles in my general vicinity. while running for the VP slot, a comical idea.

  11. George Phillies

    Weld endorsed Clinton. Saying she was better than Clinton is an endorsement.

    Johnson won because the party shiny bauble caucus halfwits were so impressed by Johnson’s alleged credentials.

    On the bright side, Johnson by appearing on town halls showed why the ‘get into the debates’ crowd wil not get us much. Johnson got large amounts of TV exposure. He convinced Aleppo many viewers that he and by inference our Aleppo party were not up to the Aleppo job. People who were willing to forgive a slip then noted that he was unable to handle defense questions, and given the opportunity passed them and many other topics over to Weld. Fortunately, we did not have to suffer through him debating Clinton and Trump, where he would have been, as Trump put it, schlonged. Debating Jill Stein would have been somewhat safer.

  12. Stewart Flood

    I was not suggesting that we should have nominated Weld. His “I will get on the phine and raise a million dollars a day” comments told me he is just as bad a liar as Johnson’s minions were. Johnson barely won the nomination.

    Look at the money flow. This was a con-job and those who donated to him got what they deserved.

    Thoughts on 2020? Let’s see what happens in 2018 first. The political winds are shifting, and predicting anything for 2020 is difficult.

  13. Norm Nelson

    Even though this is good news the lynchpin to third party perpetual depreciation is the spoiler effect. As long as we only vote for one 3rd parties are screwed. IF we could vote yes or no on each candidate that could break the logjam.

  14. Anthony Dlugos

    Think what you want to think about Weld’s opinion of Clinton being better than Trump. I think an endorsement is, “I endorse Hillary Clinton for President.”

    “Johnson won because the party shiny bauble caucus halfwits were so impressed by Johnson’s alleged credentials.”

    Alleged credentials? He was not a self-made millionaire in the construction trade and not governor of New Mexico?

    The halfwits were anyone thinking we had any other option in Orlando for either half of the ticket. Actually, those people are zero wits.

  15. Andy

    Johnson’s fancy credentials still did not qualify him to be a candidate for the Libertarian Party.

  16. Andy

    All of the main candidates for the VP nomination were better than Weld.

    Heck, you could have blindly picked a random delegate in the convention hall for VP and there is a very good chance that this person would have been a better VP candidate for the LP than Bill Weld.

  17. Andy

    Winning the nomination and being qualified to represent the LP as a candidate are not the same thing.

  18. Anthony Dlugos

    13:38 post: those are strictly your opinions only. Johnson was a member of the party in good standing and won the nomination, that is fact.

    13:39 post: Well, you only have to be a member of the party in order to potentially win the nomination. So obviously, if you’ve won the nomination, you’re qualified.

  19. Jay Wildwood

    Why is Anthony Dlugos the only one who makes sense here? Weld 2020. We need to start the drumbeat, and the recruitment effort, now. I’ll join the Libertarian Party if he says yes. Weld is a sensible pragmatic moderate who was called libertarian by many when he was Governor. He has shown some interest in the Libertarian Party for over a decade. His willingness to endorse both Democrats and Republicans in the past shows that he is not satisfied with either of those parties, just like a growing number of moderate independents that could become a great base for a mode moderate version of the Libertarian Party. Unlike Johnson, he would not be embarrassed if he actually does get in debates with major party candidates. He does have the proven ability to raise money, but could not do it on behalf of the floundering Johnson. My guess is that he will be smarter than to hire a conman like Ron Nielson to run his campaign.

    Weld’s independence from orthodox adherence to the ideology of any party, including the Libertarians, is a strength, not a weakness. A not-insubstantial portion of the American electorate, and a growing one at that, is looking for an independent, pragmatic thinker who crosses party lines. Parties are increasingly viewed negatively, as necessary evils and stepping stones at best, relics of a bygone era at worst. They are really only useful because of state ballot access laws, which make it much more difficult to start a new party from scratch or to run as an independent. Many independents are moderate libertarian-leaning centrists. The Libertarians could capture that support, as opposed to being a party for the anarchist extreme 1% or less, by running a candidate such as Weld. And Weld has a natural opening by virtue of his presence on the ticket in 2016, which greatly boosted Johnson’s performance from 2012 even though the party foolishly gave Weld second billing on that ticket.

    In 2020, it’s likely that the Democrats will give their nomination to someone from the Sanders wing of the party, turning more sharply to the left. Trump will have by then antagonized even more people than he has already. More and more people will be dissatisfied with those extreme choices, but the extremists will dominate the party primaries and caucuses. The Libertarians are in a unique position to name a sensible candidate who will capture the sensible center, poll enough support to make it into the debates, and emerge as a real contender who can’t be dismissed as a spoiler because he is polling in a competitive range with Trump and the Democratic nominee. The only thing standing in the way is overcoming the extremists within the Libertarian Party who will resist being sensible at all costs.

    Can the Libertarian Party outgrow the basement dwelling anarchists, Alex Jones nuts, troofers, white supremacists, Ron Paul cult of personality fanboys, confederate fetishists, and other such extreme elements that are holding it back, and become a competitive party led by accomplished adults who live in the real world at last?

  20. Anthony Dlugos

    I like your approach there, Jay, but Weld is a little old, and will be older by 2020.

    Find a younger candidate with similar attributes and you might be onto something.

  21. George Phillies

    Libertarian is an ideological party with a serious platform, not a space for a candidate who does not support the party’s positions. If we run Weld, we should rename the Republicans the Republican Reject party, and start a new party taht does not accept Republican rejects as Presidential candidates.

  22. George Phillies

    The arguments of the voice of sweet reason up above should be recognized as deriving its sweetness from beryllium, arsenic, and lead salts, these all being highly poisonous.

  23. Jay Wildwood

    “Weld is a little old, and will be older by 2020.

    Find a younger candidate with similar attributes and you might be onto something.”

    He’ll be 75. People are living longer. Trump is 70, the oldest president ever elected to a first term, and very few people even mentioned his age as a possible disqualification. Clinton is only a year younger. Sanders is 75, and could have plausibly beat Clinton for the nomination. Could he have beaten Trump? I don’t know, but polls show he may have. Ron Paul, though he was never a real contender for the presidency, is I’m sure supported by many here. He was 77 the last time sought the Presidency in 2012. So 75 is not what it used to be, and that will be even more true by 2020 than it is now. Trump will be 74 by then, so will 75 really be a disqualifying age?

    Find a younger candidate with similar attributes? I’m open to suggestions. Do you have one?

  24. Anthony Dlugos

    lol. “Ideological” parties are circuses that succeed in accomplishing either nothing or widespread famine and terror.

    not sure where you think Libertarian nominees for president are going to come from, if not defectors with experience from the dinosaur parties. Are you growing Stepford Wife version of Libertarian candidates, free of statist sin, at your offices at the University?

  25. Jay Wildwood

    ““Ideological” parties are circuses that succeed in accomplishing either nothing or widespread famine and terror.”

    Well put!

  26. Anthony Dlugos

    Jay,

    I do not, but its a little early at this point. Keep an eye out for one, though. We should be recruiting libertarian-leaning pros from the dinosaur parties.

    The alternative is leaving the party to the ravages of the ideologically tyrannical.

  27. Anthony Dlugos

    Jay,

    As you probably know yourself, Governor Weld’s pronouncements about the dangers of a Trump presidency, are turning out to be spot on. Despite the hysterical ramblings of the the Purist set who insist he was a shill for Hillary.

    That, his temperament, and his long-standing tendency to buck GOP social cannon tells me he probably would have made a great Libertarian president, given our federal government’s current situation.

  28. Jay Wildwood

    Yes, Weld was 100% correct about Trump.

    Reagan, at age 73, won 49 states in 1984. Hopefully Trump, at age 74, will not do nearly as well in 2020. But, it probably won’t be because of his age, either way. Sanders, age 75, was a plausible contender for the Democratic nomination in 2016, and polls showed him beating Trump head to head. They showed Clinton winning at that time as well, but Sanders’ margin was bigger. Maybe Trump would have beat him, maybe not. So will 75 make Weld too old? I don’t think so, particularly when the incumbent is 74. And what if Sanders runs again at age 79, and gets the Democratic nomination this time? I would not rule that out. Suppose Weld, 75, faces two opponents aged 74 and 79. It would certainly make little sense to attack him on the basis of age at that point.

    Another candidate considered as plausible for the Democratic nomination in 2016 is Joe Biden. He was 73 then, and there’s talk of him running in 2020. If that’s the matchup, the ages will be 77, 74 and 75 for Weld. There’s talk that Clinton will run again. Suppose she does. 73, 74, 75….too old?

    So, I see no need to talk about him in the past tense. YMMV, of course.

  29. Rebel Alliance

    This decision is very good news, but it’s misleading and hyperbole to call it a “victory”.

    I read the case. The judge chastises the FEC for failing to address or respond to the large amount of evidence submitted by the LP and co-plaintiffs, both in the current case and in the preceding complaints. But the judge simply ordered the FEC to write a response to the evidence in 60 days, which they presumably will do. At that point we will see if a meaningful decision is made. If the FEC’s response is judged to be inadequate or unlawful, THEN we can crow about a “victory”.

  30. paulie

    Weld 2020. We need to start the drumbeat, and the recruitment effort, now. I’ll join the Libertarian Party if he says yes.

    Yet another reason to just say no to Weld 🙂

  31. paulie

    Libertarian is an ideological party with a serious platform, not a space for a candidate who does not support the party’s positions.

    Exactly!

  32. Jill Pyeatt

    I just might get involved with the national party again if Weld runs for anything, even if he runs for Chief Toilet Cleaner. He shouldn’t come near the LP after how he represented us during the 2016 campaign. I REALLY have a problem with him being a member of CFR and I have even more of a problem that he’s friendly with Hillary.

    We have a long time until the next election cycle and I’m sure some better candidates will show up.

  33. paulie

    “Ideological” parties are circuses that succeed in accomplishing either nothing or widespread famine and terror

    This ignores the historical role of ideological parties such as Prohibition, Socialist, Populist and Progressive in pushing their ideas into the mainstream, even though they did not become major parties.

  34. Nate

    I see three ways for the Libertarians to go in 2020

    1. Nominate anarchist neckbeard. Beg for money to get him to libertarian dinner clubs around the country. Raise enough to make it to some of them. Disappoint the rest . Do lots of podcast interviews with 40 year old virgins and literally dozens of listeners. End up with 0.2%, completely irrelevant to result. Congratulate each other for finally nominating a “real libertarian.” Trump wins all 50 states, loses only in DC.

    2. Nominate William Weld. Do better than ever before. Split the liberal vote. Help Trump win all 50 states, losing only DC.

    3. Recognize the reality that most libertarians actually support President Trump. Co-nominate the President for re-election. Focus on local races they may actually have some chance to win. Trump wins 50 states, loses only DC. Filibuster-proof Republican majority in the Senate. Huge Republican majority in the House. Republican control of state houses and Governorships up to 40 plus by this time. Trump nominees revolutionizing the judiciary branch. Military and police firmly behind the Commander in Chief, and he firmly behind them. ISIS, Mestizo invaders, China, Democrats, liberals, criminals, looters, rioters, communists, feminists, BLM, and other enemies of the USA and the West all being routed everywhere you look. Trump, Putin, LePen, Farange and friends leading the Euro-American alliance to glorious victory.

  35. George Phillies

    “Most Libertarians support Trump” Amazing, we are now getting posts from parallel universes with different time lines.

  36. Luke

    They don’t need an appeal at this stage. They have 60 days to respond to the evidence in rendering their decision. Other steps to proceed from there.

  37. Luke

    Stewart is correct. Let’s get through 2018 before we get bogged down in 2020. I’m sure many prospective candidates will pop up who are not on anyone’s radar right now. Was anyone considering Browne (first run), Badnarik, Barr, or Johnson (first run) as likely LP presidential nominees 3 years earlier?

  38. Anthony Dlugos

    I agree with you there, Luke.

    There is no question that libertarian-leaning officeholding politicians saw what two long-retired, aging, not terribly great public speaking Republicans were able to accomplish with minimal funding and made at least a mental note, if not a written one. In ink.

  39. Rocketman

    First of all the court order says to “reconsider” and the FEC and the debate commission have all kinds of wiggle room on that. If you don’t believe that then consider that the republicans and democrats teamed up and kept a Libertarian Party member from getting Tom Delay’s old congressional seat when he had actually won it according the the established rules which when it came time to follow those rules the election commission just threw the rule book out the window.
    Face facts, The democrats and republicans are sitting on top of the mountain together fighting over it and they aren’t about to let ANYONE else have a chance at the prize. They will make a few minor changes that benefit them as much as they can while keeping the LP out of the game and pronounce them as compliant to the court order. I spent enough years in the local trenches to know how the game is really played.

  40. Stewart Flood

    Trump has done a few things that I don’t dislike, but a majority of his actions since he was sworn in have given me the same level of discomfort, distrust and disgust as the actions of the previous several presidents.

  41. Richard Winger

    Gary Johnson did an excellent job of debating his Democratic opponent for Governor in 1998. I found it on-line and watched it last year.

    Even before the Level the Playing Field decision, two of the six FEC commissioners were on our side. I feel optimistic a majority of the FEC commissioners will now do the right thing, without further need for the courts.

  42. Anthony Dlugos

    “Even before the Level the Playing Field decision, two of the six FEC commissioners were on our side. I feel optimistic a majority of the FEC commissioners will now do the right thing, without further need for the courts.”

    I feel the same way.

    Rocketman may be right about who’s on top of the mountain, but context matters, and it seems to me that they are running out of excuses that the courts…and the people…will buy.

    No cartel lasts forever.

  43. Tylor Reinhardt

    I’m on page 17, so far. I made close to the same observations as Rebel Alliance, as well as that there are two other co-plantiffs than the Green Party and the Libertarian Party.

  44. Bondurant

    Bill Weld holds no libertarian beliefs. Running libertarian candidates should be the goal of the LP. GOP Lite need not apply. Work on reforming your party instead of destroying ours.

  45. Jay Wildwood

    The Republicans are beyond saving. Hopefully, the Libertarians aren’t. And Bill Weld’s libertarian beliefs have been noticed by many for decades, at least back as far as his first run for Governor if not earlier. Much as Trump’s fascist beliefs are being noticed by many now, so why would any libertarians support him?

  46. Jay Wildwood

    It’s really quite a disgrace that conservatives supported him, as he is not conservative but authoritarian.

  47. Andy

    Bill Weld is damn sure NOT qualified to save the Libertarian Party. He example of what is wrong with the Libertarian Party.

  48. Jay Wildwood

    Actually, Andy is an example, perhaps the best example, or at least a very good one, of what’s wrong with the Libertarian Party. Bill Weld is an example of what’s right with the Libertarian Party.

  49. Bondurant

    The LP does not need saving. It just needs to stick to it’s principles. That’s what separates the LP from the GOP and Democrats. Bill Weld belongs within the GOP or Democratic garbage heap. He’s not a libertarian no matter how many times you claim he is.

    Polish a turn but it’s still a piece of shit.

  50. Jay Wildwood

    The principles that the Libertarians should stick with are those of classical liberalism, not the nutbaggery of paranoid anarchists cooking meth in their trailers and consuming a non-stop “diet” of Alex Jones and other conspiracy craziness while polishing their guns and finding secret codes in their bibles. “Establishment shill” is their code for adults with some relation to reality . Throw in some group that is the subject of their paranoid fantasies such as the CFR or the North American Union and voila, instant Bircher triggering. Somehow these wackjobs have concluded that libertarianism is compatible with monarchism, homophobia, racism, migrant-bashing, theocracy, protectionism – pretty much any craziness that gets coddled by Lew Rockwell, Alex Jones, Birchers, Gary North and the Ron Paul newsletters.

    Somehow, a crank who supported Strom Thurmond, Richard Nixon, Pat Buchanan and David Duke, and whose living disciples today support Trump, is their prototype of libertarianism. And yet, they continuously point fingers at everyone else for not being pure enough to dwell in their basement and join their dungeons and dragons club. Hopefully, the Libertarian Party is quickly outgrowing their stunted mindset nurtured in darkness and stale air. There’s a whole world of libertarian-leaning moderates increasingly being displaced by the Democrats and Republicans out there, if the Libertarians maintain the courage to emerge from the basement.

  51. Andy

    The CFR is a club for ruing establishment types. The ruing establishment is not libertarian. If it was, we would have a libertarian society right now. So if one is a member of the CFR, it is a red flag that they are not a libertarian.

    If Wild’s membership in the CFR is not a big enough club that Weld is not a libertarian, examine his record, or just listen to him speak. It is obvious that the guy is not a libertarian at all.

  52. Andy

    “Jay Wildwood” (or whoever is paying him/her to post propaganda online) is back to shill for Bill Weld. This can’t be a good sign.

  53. Anthony Dlugos

    You’re right on the money, Jay.

    There’s a movement afoot to drag the party into adulthood, don’t you worry.

  54. Andy

    “Adulthood” in the context you guys are using it means to water the message down to the point where the party is no longer libertarian, which is the direction Bill Weld wants to take us.

  55. Jay Wildwood

    Andy, the 40 year old virgin:

    “The CFR is a club for ruing establishment types. The ruing establishment is not libertarian. If it was, we would have a libertarian society right now. So if one is a member of the CFR, it is a red flag that they are not a libertarian.”

    The CFR is a club for accomplished adults. Like other people who live in the real world and don’t see things two dimensionally and in black and white, they don’t all agree with other, are open to incrementally changing their minds and being persuaded. Some, maybe many, of them could well consider moving incrementally in the direction of classical liberalism and moderate libertarianism, especially in the face of a growing threat from authoritarian nationalist populism which is coddled and in many cases actually embraced by these same supposedly oh so pure paranoid basemented anarcho-fascists. Of course, the idea that the “ruing establishment” is anything but some evil monolith can’t be conceived by small minds deprived of oxygen and sunlight, who are more apt to believe the “ruing establishment” are all Jewish reptile shape shifters from outer space.

    “If Wild’s membership in the CFR is not a big enough club that Weld is not a libertarian, examine his record, or just listen to him speak. It is obvious that the guy is not a libertarian at all.”

    I’ve listened to him speak, and he sounds considerably more rational and libertarian than you and your raving about Europeans “allowing” their women to sleep with “Moslem savages” and the white race being genocided through race-mixing and welfare-sucking minorities who want to take away your guns and “your” women. Just a little light reading from last month’s open thread.

    ““Jay Wildwood” (or whoever is paying him/her to post propaganda online) is back to shill for Bill Weld. ”

    Naturally, to the basement-dwelling paranoid mind, any opposing thoughts can’t be genuine, but have to be paid to disagree with you by the Leaned Elders of Zion, Lizard People, Illuminati, Bildeberger, New World Order Trilaterist CFR Globalists with their evil race-mixing agenda.

    “There’s a movement afoot to drag the party into adulthood, don’t you worry.”

    I hope you succeed. I’ll jump in when I see sufficient evidence of progress. A party where the amazing Andy and others like him feel not only welcome but in a position to run purity tests on others and run them off isn’t quite there yet, but I do see signs of hope.

    ““Adulthood” in the context you guys are using it means to water the message down to the point where the party is no longer libertarian, which is the direction Bill Weld wants to take us.”

    He wants to bring the party out of the basement, into the scary sunlight and fresh air where grown folks live? The unimaginable horrors!

  56. Tony From Long Island

    Upon only a cursory reading of the decision I am not jumping for joy. It is very similar to when an inmate challenges a parole denial in court. He argues that the parole board’s decision was boiler plate and pro forma. The court sometimes will say “OK, the boars should give more adequate reasons for its decision . . . . ” The inmate gets very excited and goes back before the board who then makes the same decision with just a little more language and explanation used. The challenge process then starts anew and goes on forever. I wrote dozens and dozens of them for guys while I was locked up. Every so often it would eventually result in a release of someone who should have been out years earlier.

    Nothing in this decision stops the Defendant from making the same determination while making up some more ridiculous reasons for the denial. The court pointed out that ” . . . the court cannot and does not mandate that the FEC reach a different conclusion on remand . . . ” it also optimistically followed that with “the weight of the plaintiff’s evidence is substantial.” so that might make it more difficult for the FEC to come up with bull shit excuses for a denial.

    We shall see . . .

  57. Andy

    It is pretty obvious that “Jay” is a troll, and has likely been trolling here for a long time. Remember last spring, before the national convention, “Jay” claimed to live in Florida, yet when I did multiple online people searches for a “Jay Wildwood” in Florida, nothing came up. So then I asked “Jay” to show up at the national convention in Orlando so we could debate in person, and have it put on video and posted online. “Jay” claimed he could not make it, so then I said that I would go meet him anywhere in Florida so we could debate in person and have it put on video and posted online, and then “Jay” claimed he was too busy.

    Now “Jay” pops up months later (or at least whatever troll is posting under the fake name “Jay Wildwood” has started using this fake persona agin) to push his Bill Weld bullshit.

    Less people are going to buy it this time around.

  58. Tony From Long island

    Why does it bother you so much? Just ignore it and keep posting your conspiracy theories.

    Actually doing online searches for someone you think is a troll is really quite bizarre.

    See if you can find “Tony From Long Island” too.

  59. Jay Wildwood

    It is more than obvious that Andy is a troll, and has been living under a bridge for a long time.

    No, Andy, I am still not interested in hooking up with you. Thanks for continuing to show interest but I don’t want to wrestle with you, have sex with you, get in a fistfight, have a duel, jerk each other off, or whatever it is that you think is going to be accomplished by meeting in person. What points can you make in a debate in person that you can’t make online? Really, Andy, there are no shortage of bars around my neighborhood if I want to get laid or get in a fistfight. We have boxing gyms and dojos and shooting ranges, too. Nor am I interested in providing you with any information to harass or stalk me. You seem quite unbalanced, and all in all it just doesn’t seem like a good idea. I don’t have anything to prove, but feel free to continue to exhibit your paranoia and lack of substantive arguments with your ad hominem nonsense.

    “Less people are going to buy it this time around.”

    I love how Andy calls his own imaginary fight. Last time I checked, Andy was the one people were talking about quarantining like the mental leper he is near the end of last month’s open thread. Maybe Andy is the one whose bullshit more and more people are no longer buying around here?

  60. tony from long island

    Nate said ” . . . . 3. Recognize the reality that most libertarians actually support President Trump. . . . . ”

    Umm. I seriously doubt that. If they do, they really aren’t libertarian. If he has brainwashed the libertarians, then we are in worse shape than I thought #resist

    have a good weekend everyone (except andy)

  61. Just Some Random Guy

    Weld was barely passable as a vice presidential candidate, but he definitely does not belong at the top of the Libertarian presidential ticket. Has he even indicated any interest in that anyway?

  62. Andy

    “Jay,” why don’t you come out from hiding and show up at an LP meeting anywhere in the country and wow everyone with a speech about why Bill Weld is so great for the LP?

    Let us know which LP meeting you will be attending so we can contact somebody in that local party to make sure they have a video camera to record your speech and then post it to YouTube.

    Do not worry. I will not be there.

    So let us know and we can get the ball rolling.

  63. paulie

    he definitely does not belong at the top of the Libertarian presidential ticket

    Agreed.

    Has he even indicated any interest in that anyway?

    Not that I know of.

  64. Andy

    “Jay Wildwood” said: “The CFR is a club for accomplished adults.”

    LOL!

    Translation: The CFR is the ruling establishment that robs that regular people of their freedoms.

  65. Andy

    Jay Wildwood said: “than you and your raving about Europeans ‘allowing’ their women to sleep with ‘Moslem savages'”

    I NEVER said the word “savages,” you lying piece of shit.

    Here is the thread:

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/01/january-2017-open-thread/

    I also was NOT referring some much to voluntary relationships, but rather on RAPES. Yes, there has been a huge increase in the number of RAPES committed in European countries that have allowed large numbers of Muslim migrants to enter their territory. This is a FACT.

    I also posted a video from an Iman where he ADMITS that their goal is to out-breed the Europeans, and the Americans, and TAKE OVER THEIR COUNTRIES.

    We are not talking about some boy meets girl love story here. We are not talking about peaceful people having babies. We are talking about a plan to destroy nations and replace the population with hostile aliens.

    Does anyone here think that it would a desirable thing be to live under the rule of a Muslim theocracy?

  66. Andy

    “Jay Wildwood” said: “I love how Andy calls his own imaginary fight. Last time I checked, Andy was the one people were talking about quarantining like the mental leper he is near the end of last month’s open thread. Maybe Andy is the one whose bullshit more and more people are no longer buying around here?”

    You are probably the person who posted the troll comments, and you are probably the person who posted the anonymous lurker complaining post.

    If you are not that person, I bet you are working with whoever it was.

  67. Jay Wildwood

    Last comment from me here, at least for quite a while:

    ““Jay,” why don’t you come out from hiding”

    I’m not in hiding. Not going out of my way to prove anything to a rant-and-raving nut like yourself isn’t hiding. Neither is not attending some circle jerk/cult meeting.

    “show up at an LP meeting anywhere in the country and wow everyone with a speech about why Bill Weld is so great for the LP?”

    You have it backwards. If the LP wows me by nominating Bill Weld, or someone like him, for the top spot, a check from me will be in the mail. It isn’t up to me to persuade the LP, but up to the LP to persuade me. At this point, my sense is that your party still has far too many Andies for me to jump in. Perhaps it’s just this board but I rather doubt it. I expect I’ll find at least an Andy or two at any LP church service if I really did attend one.

    “Do not worry. I will not be there.”

    I’m not worried. The party will either demonstrate that it deserves a contribution, or it doesn’t. As for raving lunatics we have them down here too. Some walk the streets, muttering to themselves and yelling and cursing at passers-by, in between begging for spare cash. Some will be found sitting at the local bar, with terrible teeth and worse haircuts, raging on steroids or meth or PCP or god knows what, dressed in shorts with boots and tattered tank tops with holes, hollering about Jews and Mexicans and Muslims and Masons and the Vatican and “white genocide”, accusing anyone new who walks in the place of spying on them for the CIA, etc. The better class of establishment will show this sort of customer the door.

    “I NEVER said the word “savages,” you lying piece of shit. I also posted a video from an Iman where he ADMITS that their goal is to out-breed the Europeans, and the Americans, and TAKE OVER THEIR COUNTRIES…We are talking about a plan to destroy nations and replace the population with hostile aliens. ”

    Read the youtube description of the video you posted. It says “will Europe allow its women to sleep with these savages.” In any case, you’ve made my point. The “iman” is actually the Muslim equivalent of you, a ranting nut that no one should take seriously, and from this you have deduced that he is speaking for all Muslims. He doesn’t, any more than you speak for all Americans. But thanks for making my point by posting the same kind of delusional ranting again here, so no one has to track down a separate thread to verify what kind of nonsense you habitually spout.

    “You are probably the person who posted the troll comments, and you are probably the person who posted the anonymous lurker complaining post.

    If you are not that person, I bet you are working with whoever it was.”

    I actually have no idea who he or she is, but that poster does make a good point. A place which welcomes the likes of Andy drives off most sane people. I may check back with you all in a few months to see if he is still doing so here. Hopefully, some day soon the Libertarians will mature and outgrow the Andies of the party. Until then, good luck and thanks for all the fish.

  68. Anthony Dlugos

    Jay,

    No doubt the party has a problem with our lunatic fringe, but its good to properly gauge the totality of the problem…and from that perspective, the folks who visit this site are hardly representative of the party, and Andy even less so.

    In reality, the most reliable reflection of where the party is as a whole comes from the top of ticket nominations at the presidential year conventions. In that regard, the last 6 went to the most pragmatic person available at the time, despite what the Lunatic Fringe Caucus thought of them.

    All we really need to do is corral that majority into expressing their already accepted positions as a voting bloc. This is a lot easier than factions that will forever need to first convince people to sign onto an exclusionary, cult-like thought process.

  69. Andy

    I have been involved with the LP for over 20 years, and i have been to numerous LP meetings and conventions. I have met a lot more people who are closer to me than they are to Bill Weld in terms of issues/philosophy.

  70. Anthony Dlugos

    yet, look who was nominated at the last 3 presidential conventions. and the dearth of nutty anti-free trade CFR conspiracy theory troofers in any positions of authority within the party or with any of the potential presidential nominees.

    insert andy conspiracy theory here.

  71. Andy

    A lot of who gets nominated dependents on who shows up at conventions. There were people a good number of people at those conventions that were there not so much for the LP as they were there for Barr, Johnson, etc… I suspect that at least some of these people were not even really libertarians. Sure, they joined the party so they could vote at the convention, but they do not really believe in the principles.

    There were other people at these conventions that voted for Barr, Johnson, etc…, who recognized that Barr, Johnson, etc…, were weak on issues/philosophy, but they voted for them anyway because they thought that their “shiny badge” credentials would bring the party more publicity.

  72. Anthony Dlugos

    Its not a shiny badge, its a resume. Normal people expect one if someone is applying to be President of the United States. You’re not normal, no offense intended.

    And if they thought nominating them was going to bring more publicity, then they are right, it worked.

  73. Andy

    Having candidates that go out and grossly misrepresent the party and philosophy is not what I call good publicity.

  74. Anthony Dlugos

    “Having candidates that go out and grossly misrepresent the party and philosophy is not what I call good publicity.”

    Obviously, the delegates did not appear to buy that argument. And before you go there, the delegates were fully aware the eventual nominees were not dyed-in-the-wool radicals.

  75. John Burd

    If we win with the FEC, the states will then make it harder for us to get on the ballot. Pennsylvania already wants to change our sig gathering time window. We are not the agenda of the elite. We are gnats for them to swat at. TPTB own the system and we are the Whack-A-Moles. When they want to spy, they spy, and tie up all remedies in the courts until the technology changes and we start from square one AFTER we discover that the spying continues. When we win, they simply toss another road block in the way. We serve as pawns and fodder, but serve we must, because it is the right thing to do.

    “If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito.”
    – Dalai Lama XIV

  76. Mark

    “If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito.”

    Sounds rather uncomfortable for the mosquito.

    “I have been involved with the LP for over 20 years, and i have been to numerous LP meetings and conventions. I have met a lot more people who are closer to me than they are to Bill Weld in terms of issues/philosophy.”

    How about people who disagree both with Bill “Hillary Clinton is great/I want to help Romney rebuild the GOP/I’m a Libertarian for life (just ask the LPNY)” Weld AND Andy “their goal is to out-breed the Europeans, and the Americans, and TAKE OVER THEIR COUNTRIES…We are talking about a plan to destroy nations and replace the population with hostile aliens” Jacobs? Honestly, I’m not sure which one is worse, but I can tell you neither one represents my views.

  77. Andy

    “Mark,” did the Iman in the video link that I posted SAY THAT THEIR GOAL IS TO OUT-BREED the Europeans so they can take over their countries or not?

    This is a YES or NO question.

    The Iman either said it, or he did not say it.

    I expect an answer from you on this, and do not weasel out of answering yes or no.

    Here is another question for you, “Mark”:

    Do you think that there would be more freedom in an Islamic country, or less freedom in an Islamic country?

    One more thing, “Mark”. If we achieve an anarcho-capitalist society, which means full private property, you would be free to invite as many Muslim fundamentalists on your land as you wanted, and while you are at it, you could also invite some communists and start a voluntary hippie commune. It would be interesting to see if the Muslims would clash with the commie hippies.

  78. Andy

    “Mark,” tell me which libertarian principle I violated. Keep in mind that the Libertarian Party platform says it is OK to repel people who are a threat to security, health, or property.

    I advocate abolishing the state and privatizing all land. What is more libertarian than that?

  79. John Burd

    Europe surely does have a lesson for us. It is in insisting on keeping to Western values and NOT allowing “Democratic” tyranny of the majority to wipe away the Western values of free speech ie., the right to poke fun at Mohammad, when a majority decides it should be eliminated. The solution there would be to hold a Western values class and judge people by their individual reaction, not to treat every Muslim like a criminal. Theoretically IF there were a tribe whos culture could not comprehend that you could not just drag any female they wanted home by her hair then you would not grant them a visa. Anyone who believes that Muslims fit this extreme example need to shut off the TV and get out more. 1/3rd of the Muslims I know are activists in the Libertarian party. When I turn the TV on it tells me that no such freedom loving Muslims exist. There is a war on against Muslims quite similar to Germany’s war on Jews. Gov’t loves when they can create a common enemy. Is gov afraid of terrorists? Then why is the travel ban not against Saudis? How the hell can the country responsible for the 9-11 hijackers be exempt! Stop being pawns in the game of divide and conquer.

  80. Mark

    “Andy,”

    1. They are called imams, not imans. Try not to embarrass yourself further.

    2. I don’t watch videos whose youtube description is “will Europe allow its women to breed with these savages.”

    3. I’ll take your word that he said it. So what? There are all kinds of crazy preachers and other crazy people saying all kinds of crazy shit. Are you trying to tell us you believe all Muslims believe this? Explain yourself. Or don’t, and continue to leave the impression that you are an ignorant bigot.

    4. “I expect an answer from you on this,…” Who the fuck are you to make demands, “Andy”? I’ll answer what and when I feel like. You’re not the boss of me.

    “Do you think that there would be more freedom in an Islamic country, or less freedom in an Islamic country?”

    I don’t think a government mixed with any religion is a good idea. Of course, since there are many, many more Christians than Muslims in the US, and Muslims make up maybe 1-2% of the population here, the threat of a Christian theocracy here is a lot more realistic than a Muslim one. Only crazy, delusional bigots believe otherwise.

    One more thing “Andy,” whoever it was that suggested you might fit in better with the American Freedom Party (no, it was not me) may have had a good point.

    Given that your “iman” (LOL) video comes from this channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/DeathToLiberalism/videos

    I stand by my prior statement:

    How about people who disagree both with Bill “Hillary Clinton is great/I want to help Romney rebuild the GOP/I’m a Libertarian for life (just ask the LPNY)” Weld AND Andy “their goal is to out-breed the Europeans, and the Americans, and TAKE OVER THEIR COUNTRIES…We are talking about a plan to destroy nations and replace the population with hostile aliens” Jacobs? Honestly, I’m not sure which one is worse, but I can tell you neither one represents my views.

  81. Andy

    FYI, the Refugee Resettlement Act is a government welfare program. That means that these people were already violating property rights before they even landed here, because receiving government welfare money is receiving stolen goods (as in money the government took from other people in the form of taxes).

    Since when do Libertarians support government welfare programs?

  82. Andy

    What makes it even worse is that these people never even paid into the system in this country. It is not like they paid any taxes here. They just show up and BOOM…sign right up for government welfare.

  83. Andy

    I have encountered Muslims while petitioning and/or doing outreach for the Libertarian Party who started screaming at me because Libertarians think it should be legal for gays to marry. Some of them said that all gays should be rounded up and executed. I am not making this up.

  84. Mark

    “I have encountered Muslims while petitioning and/or doing outreach for the Libertarian Party who started screaming at me because Libertarians think it should be legal for gays to marry. Some of them said that all gays should be rounded up and executed. I am not making this up.”

    “Andy” is absolutely correct. It’s very unlibertarian to judge people collectively like that.

  85. Andy

    Anthony, I have done tons of libertarian outreach to all kinds of people. Seriously, you name a classification of people, and chances are very good that I tried to sell them on libertarianism.

    I have had quite a bit of success at this, as I have gotten lots of people interested in the party and philosophy, and this includes some diversity. I am one of the few people in the LP that has done a lot of field outreach in predominantly black neighborhoods, in places like Baltimore, MD, Washington DC, and Birmingham, AL, to name just a few places (and yes, I had successes in these places). I have done this with immigrant groups as well. I even went to a couple of swearing in of new citizens events in Los Angeles, CA back in the early 2000’s (these were not so successful).

    I referenced some negative encounters I had with approaching some Muslims from the Middle East and Africa above (the ones who said they wanted gays rounded up and executed), but in all fairness, I talked to an Iranian guy in Las Vegas or Henderson, NV who was interested in the Libertarian Party, and another Iranian guy in Oxnard, CA who was interested in the Libertarian Party. I also ran into some Muslims from somewhere in the Middle East in Indiana when I was gathering petition signatures to place Ron Paul in the primaries, and they signed because they said they liked that Ron Paul did not want to go to war in the Middle East.

    I will talk to anybody who is willing to engage, but some people are obviously better prospects than others.

  86. Andy

    “Mark,” I put your name in quotes because I suspect that you are posting under a fake name. A lot of the regular posters here have met or seen me in person, so they know I am for real.

    I did not indicate that all Muslims want gays to be executed, but there are enough of them who do believe this that it ought to be cause for alarm. I find it scary that people with this mentality were sworn in as American citizens.

  87. Mark

    “Andy” I don’t give a fuck what you suspect. As long as you put my name in quotes I’ll continue to return the favor.

    “I did not indicate that all Muslims …”

    No, you just want the government use force to keep them from immigrating, just in case. Collective punishment is the essence of libertarianism, right?

  88. John Burd

    “Hold a Western values class [for those seeking a student visa or naturalization] and judge people by their individual reaction, not to treat every Muslim like a criminal.”
    If this were done, and someone of any faith or no faith raised their hand and said “I think I’d have a hard time accepting the instances where [Western value X] was exercised and I’d seek the injury or death of the practitioner.” Then they can be told that this is not the way the West does things. If they take action against the performance of Western value X, as a tourist / student they will go to jail. If they are seeking citizenship, the answer is ‘no’. The more they balk at that, the quicker they are shown the door.
    That is just an off-the-cuff answer. Somebody bring Will Coley in to the discussion. He loves Liberty and understands the issue. I’d hope that Libertarians understand that not everyone is a good fit for Western values such as the perpetrators of the Charlie Hebdo attacks. It is just that we bristle at thought that the ‘fix’ being as a simple as Trump’s travel bans.

  89. Tony From Long Island

    Andy Dandy: ” . . . . .I have been involved with the LP for over 20 years, and i have been to numerous LP meetings and conventions. I have met a lot more people who are closer to me than they are to Bill Weld in terms of issues/philosophy. . . . ”

    Should I be impressed? I’m not.

    The reason you THINK there are more people in the LP who align with you philosophically is likely because only fellow nut bags will talk to you for more than 5 minutes.

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