Paul Frankel: Why Libertarians need to denounce the Alt Right and white nationalists and don’t need to worry about libertarian socialists and antifa

Submitted to IPR by Paulie:

As part of my efforts as a writer here at IPR, I monitor the news for stories about the LP. If you look at google news (news.google.com) for “libertarian” or “libertarian party” these days you will find some disturbing connotations. Among the stories on the very first page of results for libertarian as of when I looked it up yesterday:

Does libertarianism have an alt-right problem?
Washington Post Aug 23, 2017?

Is There Really an ‘Insidious Libertarian-To-Alt-Right Pipeline’?
Reason (blog) Aug 23, 2017

Why Libertarians Go Alt-Right
The American Interest Aug 23, 2017

Trump – A Friend of Libertarianism
Being Libertarian Aug 29, 2017

Libertarians wrestle with the alt-right – The Washington Post
Washington Post Aug 24, 2017

The Insidious Libertarian-to-Alt-Right Pipeline
Daily Beast Aug 22, 2017

“Weeping Nazi” Christopher Cantwell went from libertarian to fascist — and he’s not alone
Salon Aug 26, 2017?

Libertarianism, Individualism, and Racism
Cato Institute (blog) Aug 25, 2017

Many of these posts point out that many of the leaders of the Alt Right self-identified as libertarians, and in some cases Libertarians, within the last few years or in some cases months. These include many of the headliners of the infamous Charlottesville Unite the Right march where the organizers threatened violence prior to the march and proceeded to put 35 people, every single one on the antifascist side, in the hospital, and one in the morgue. Only 19 of the hospitalizations were from the vehicular assault.

Google news suggestions for topics related to libertarian. Notice they include alt right and Richard Spencer. This was the whole list as of right now:

Peter Thiel
Alt-right
Institutional review board
Richard B. Spencer
Ron Paul
Nick Gillespie

2 of 6 items are Alt Right and its godfather Richard Spencer. Spencer was a Ron Paul for President supporter and a protege of Paul Gottfried, who is frequently published by Lew Rockwell. Together Gottfried and Spencer came up with the “Alt Right”.

This comes at a time when the Alt Right and its violence is the focus of major attention in the national news. It’s all over MSM coverage, not just movement news or alt politics. All that coverage shows these Alt Right (bka Altreich) guys marching not just with Confederate flags, but with nazi ones as well, and Klan hoods. There are lots of anti-semitic chants and Hitler salutes. Is this what libertarians want to be associated with?

If you look up Alt-Right in turn you get things like “HuffPost
Why Anti-Semitism Remains So Important To The Alt-Right” and “Islamophobia.” If you back out of news and do a general google search one of the top results is “Alt Right: A Primer about the New White Supremacy.” So again, why would we allow ourselves to be mixed up with this cancer?

So, that’s why I believe it is both important and necessary to draw a sharp line between the Libertarian Party (and to the extent possible movement) and the Altreich. See LSLA 2017: ‘Physically Removed, So to Speak: Making the LP Inhospitable to the Alt-Right and Other Nazis’ and Nicholas Sarwark: ‘Nationalism and racism is a sickness that flows from weakness and lack of anything other than the privilege of birth to be proud of’ and Liberty Against Fascism: ‘Restating the Obvious: An Open Letter from the Libertarian Movement’ and LP Release: “Libertarians condemn bigotry as irrational and repugnant” among other things. The last thing we need are more headlines like this one Orlando Sentinel: ‘Goat-blood drinking Orlando man had key billing for Charlottesville rally’ or any more of this: Former Libertarian, now fascist, Christopher Cantwell gathers national attention.

It’s why I agree with Tom Knapp’s ‘A Brief Note on Philosophical Debate versus Marketing Practice’ and Gene Berkman: ‘Blood & Soil BSers Look Back to Miserable Era’. And with Nicholas Sarwark and Arvin Vohra when they call out Jeff Deist and the Mises Institute’s “blood and soil” politics. Deist dog whistled “blood and soil” at the end of an otherwise reasonable speech about libertarian decentralism, just as the murderous fascists and nazis in Charlottesville were about to march down the street shouting the same nazi slogan just before killing and injuring people. It was no different than if at the end of his speech he had pulled down his pants and took a dump on stage, wiped himself with his hand and licked his hand clean right in front of the audience and the cameras.

But, what if he just came up with the slogan completely on his own and had no idea what it implied? You may think that in the wake of Charlottesville an apology and explanation would be called for, yet we have Tom Woods and the rest of the LvMI circle bristling about how they shouldn’t have to dissociate from fascists because everyone already knows we have nothing to do with them. Except, as I pointed out earlier, everyone does not know that. The MSM does not know that. The altreich leaders don’t know that – many of them called themselves libertarians recently, and some of them may still be doing that. The people in the comments sections of Woods, Stapleton, et al don’t know it; there’s plenty of white nationalist sentiment openly expressed there.

So if anything, in light of the damage that the old Ron Paul Newsletters have done to the movement and to Ron Paul’s campaign itself, in light of Deist’s speech and many other very unfortunate associations between the Rockwellians and the Altreich/neo-confederate/white nationalist movement from Hoppe on down, they have a special responsibility to dissociate from this ugly bigotry. Shame on them for not doing so, and it makes it doubly important that the rest of us do so.

Now that we have gone over what I believe is a real threat to the reputation and prospects of libertarianism and the LP and why, let me explain what I believe is not and why I am not so concerned about it. Here it is:

.

Yes, a few of these folks believe that “rent is theft” and “property is theft” but is that cause for alarm? Chances are most of those who have joined the facebook group don’t even agree with it, and/or are not LP members. How many actually agree with libertarian socialism AND are active LP members? I’m going to guess they can be counted on your fingers, without going down to the toes.

So, we have a caucus which can fit in an egg carton, as far as likely delegates to the national or any state convention go. We don’t have a major problem with the establishment news media or the general public mixing up the LP with libertarian socialism. Unlike the alt right, we don’t have libertarian socialists out killing people or being profiled on Vice News or being the subjects of embarrassing headlines in major city newspapers or widely read news magazines or even movement news and opinion organs such as Reason Hit and Run, Cato or LR.C.

Yes, there are some antifascists – not nearly all – who punch nazis (just for holding their repugnant beliefs alone), destroy property or at least condone such things. But the scale of violence they engage in is far, far less than that of the Altreich and the racist white supremacist movement. And there’s a lot less confusion in the public, media or really anyone’s mind between them and the LP/libertarians as opposed to the confusion between LP/libertarians and the far right. When your boat is rapidly taking on water on one side and in real danger of sinking, it isn’t a good use of your time and energy to worry so much about some mold growing on the other end of the boat which will pose an environmental breathing hazard at some point much later…if your boat doesn’t sink long before then, that is.

I’m not allowed to quote what is said in the closed internal discussion groups of the LP Radical Caucus but I think it’s OK for me to reveal in general terms that there is a lot of discussion of this miniscule Libertarian Socialist caucus and many calls for formal condemnation. There’s a poll which shows that a lot of those there believe it is a serious problem for the LP. I disagree with them, and I believe they are wasting their time and energy which is needed to address a much bigger problem on our right flank right now.

I do not want the radical caucus or the LP as a whole to make the same fundamental error that Donald Trump is being widely and correctly condemned for, of creating a false equivalence between “violence on both sides” (when it is in fact massively disproportional). That disparity is magnified when it comes to the composition and outside perception of libertarians. There are times when an equal concern about the left may well be warranted; in the late 1960s and early 1970s left wing terrorists were killing a lot of people in this country, much like far right terrorists are now, and Murray Rothbard and his circle were making alliances with the Maoist far left, much as Rothbard and his heirs have with the far right since the 1990s. At the moment, however, it is the latter alliance and not the former which should be seen as the problem to address right now.

752 thoughts on “Paul Frankel: Why Libertarians need to denounce the Alt Right and white nationalists and don’t need to worry about libertarian socialists and antifa

  1. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Google has joined with Facebook to censor what people read. This is a very serious issue. Anything not part of the mainstream narrative is at risk of being censored.

    I suggest duckduckgo as a search engine and anything but Google or Foxfire as a brower.

    This is an excellent article, Paulie.

  2. Anthony Dlugos

    “I’m not allowed to quote what is said in the closed internal discussion groups of the LP Radical Caucus but I think it’s OK for me to reveal in general terms that there is a lot of discussion of this miniscule Libertarian Socialist caucus and many calls for formal condemnation. There’s a poll which shows that a lot of those there believe it is a serious problem for the LP. I disagree with them, and I believe they are wasting their time and energy which is needed to address a much bigger problem on our right flank right now.”

    Yea, that would be a significant waste of time and energy.

  3. itdoesntmatter

    Coincidentally I just read an article about a well-known white supremacist being invited to speak at a local Libertarian event as recently as late 2016. I don’t think it was an oversight. The “alt right” may be a new-ish phenomenon but the open association with these types has been around at least since I joined the party in 2000 and of course earlier. I remember my state leaders palling around with Bill White and his ilk. It’s sad to me, as I think Libertarians/libertarians would/should be opposed (obviously) to any sort of forced “ethnostate” which is really the (oft openly-stated) goal of these folks. The “alt-right” explicitly condemn markets, freedom, and a litany of other “abstract” (according to them) goals that are inconsistent with a society based primarily on racial identity. They support a President who was sued for eminent domain abuse, among many anti-liberty behaviors. Racial identity is their only policy goal, yet somehow they are embraced by “libertarians?”

  4. itdoesntmatter

    Also wanted to add that I read another article that showed the pipeline to Breitbart and some of the “alt right” tends to come from rich liberal trust fund kids in California. So the premise that the alt-right is being fed by a small population of libertarians, is off base. I wonder what % of the alt-right are actual trolls and/or financial opportunists hopping on the Trump train for clicks and cash, too – not that it makes their association with libertarians any better.

  5. robert capozzi

    pf: But the scale of violence they engage in is far, far less than that of the Altreich and the racist white supremacist movement.

    me: Overall, A+, but I’m not sure the Hater Alt-right does more violence than Antifa, etc. My gut says there are almost no Hater Alt-rightists who are willing to protest and rally. IIRC, there were only about 500 of these sickos in C’ville, and they had to pull from across the country just to assemble that many activist Haters in one place.

    Ls simply are not associated with Antifa, so I agree it’s not a concern.

  6. paulie

    I’m not sure the Hater Alt-right does more violence than Antifa

    In Charlottesville: Either 35-0 or 34-1 in hospitalizations (on another thread RTAA claims fash – and another ex-libertarian – “Baked Alaska” was injured, which I haven’t looked up yet. Cuckwell bragged nobody on their side was injured). And of course 1-0 in deaths.

    Elsewhere: The racist far right has had many murderous eruptions from Dylan Roof to the Sikh Temple Shooter to many others. Tim McVeigh was also associated with both libertarians and white supremacists. By contrast there have been *zero* people killed by any antifa or far left terror that I can think of in decades. I am not counting black supremacists as “left wing” for this but even if we did, we don’t come up with nearly the body count of the far right unless we go all the way back to the 1970s.

    Counterexamples welcome.

  7. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    itdoesntmatter wrote: ” I remember my state leaders palling around with Bill White and his ilk. ” What state was that? I remember White coming to some LP of Maryland meetings in late 1990s which I attended, and a national LP fundraising dinner in DC. He kept his rhetoric relatively low key at the time, but libertarians were dismissive of him at best and hostile at worst. I probably have some old emails archived on the topic of Bill.

    So it wasn’t MD. In 2000 he became a Buchananite for a months but then it was all down hill from there. I have a photo of him wearing a Bunchanan hat I took at a year 2000 anti-globalization rally where I first had misfortune to deal with black bloc. Another story…

    White got nuttier and nuttier and probably still is in jail. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_White_(neo-Nazi)

    Anywat what state are you talking about?? Or are you just spreading false rumors.

  8. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    The Libertarian Socialist Caucus Facebook description is innocuous enough. The machismo of some of the members who look like they are looking for a fight with the “alt-right” types are more of a problem. Ryan Ramsey seems to be the leader in the LP, plus some members of his “LP Veteran Caucus”. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1089219457875154/

    The Libertarian Socialist Caucus is about making the tent big enough for people who identity as left libertarians to find a home in Libertarian Party organizing spaces. Not to supplant propertarian viewpoints, but to add to them.

    Like all LP members, the NAP pledge is valued and respected by Libertarian Socialist Caucus members. If you perceive violence being advocated, you are interpreting it wrong. Left libertarians tend to be extremely open minded about diverse ideas about property norms, but remain committed to non coercive relationships that respect the norms of a given community.

    Nobody knows better how to organize an individual’s economic and social life than that individual!

    Please be respectful to others.

  9. robert capozzi

    pf, my IMPRESSION is that there have been several violent outbursts by Antifa in recent months, vs. one high-profile event in C’ville by the racist rights. The Racist Right seem to have a very thin bench, whereas one gets the sense that there are more Antifa spread out across the country.

    There may be more Lone Nut of the Dylan Roof sort amongst the Racist Right, and his moment was over 2 years ago now.

  10. paulie

    It’s not just Charlottesville or Dylan Roof or the Sikh Temple Shooter. Those are just examples. There have been many other violent far right, racist attacks which have actually killed people. Yes there have been some violent outbursts by some antifascists, but they have consisted of things like property damage, punches and shoving. Where are the dead bodies? Where are the maimed, other than possibly “Baked Alaska”? Again yes there is violence on the left side but it is just not the same level of violence as the racist far right at all.

    Per ADL, “Over the past 10 years (2007-2016), domestic extremists of all kinds have killed at least 372 people in the United States. Of those deaths, approximately 74% were at the hands of right-wing extremists, about 24% of the victims were killed by domestic Islamic extremists, and the remainder were killed by left-wing extremists.” That remainder is 2% and by left wing extremists they mean black nationalists, which I would not necessarily classify that way.

  11. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Word “ANTIFA” should describe ONLY these leftists who use black bloc violent tactics.

    Libertarians only should all themselves “anti-fascist” spelled out so as not to get confused with these anti-free market, anti-free speech and often mentally deranged freaks. The threaten and intimidate people in progressive and peace movements just like ALT-RIGHT does in Libertarian movement.

    It was this violence against relatively innocuous/stupid speakers like Yiannapolis and others that gave the alt-right the excuse they were looking for to come back with violence and spout their nonsense.

    Both sides are psycho-mostly males and have to be rejected.

    Paulie, don’t use ANTIFA. It just pisses libertarians and others off, and rightly so.

  12. paulie

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism#United_Sta

    During the 1980s, more than 75 right-wing extremists were prosecuted in the United States for acts of terrorism, carrying out six attacks.[31] In 1983, Gordon Kahl, a Posse Comitatus activist, killed two federal marshals and was later killed by police. Also that year, the white nationalist revolutionary group The Order (also known as the Brüder Schweigen or Silent Brotherhood) robbed banks and armored cars, as well as a sex shop,[32] bombed a theater and a synagogue and murdered radio talk show host Alan Berg.[33][34]

    The April 19, 1995 attack on the Murrah federal building in Oklahoma by Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols killed 168 people and was the deadliest act of domestic terrorism in the history of the United States.[35] McVeigh stated that it was retaliation for the government’s actions at Ruby Ridge and Waco.[36]

    Eric Rudolph executed a series of terrorist attacks between 1996 and 1998. He carried out the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing—which claimed two lives and injured 111—aiming to cancel the games, claiming they promoted global socialism and to embarrass the U.S. government.[37] Rudolph confessed to bombing an abortion clinic in Sandy Springs, an Atlanta suburb, on January 16, 1997, the Otherside Lounge, an Atlanta lesbian bar, on February 21, 1997, injuring five and an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama on January 29, 1998, killing Birmingham police officer and part-time clinic security guard Robert Sanderson and critically injuring nurse Emily Lyons.

    Post-2001[edit]
    As of June 2015, right-wing attacks since the September 11 attacks (9/11) had claimed more lives (48) than attacks committed by jihadists (26).[38] Thereafter, jihadist terrorist attacks (the 2015 San Bernardino attack and the 2016 Orlando nightclub shooting) raised the Islamic extremist death toll above that caused by right-wing extremists. As of August 2017, the New America Foundation placed the number killed in terrorist attacks in the United States (since 9/11) as follows: 97 killed in jihadist terrorist attacks, 68 killed in far-right attacks, and 8 killed in black separatist/nationalist/supremacist attacks.[39] The politically conservative Daily Caller News Foundation using data from the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism (START), found 92% of all “ideologically motivated homicide incidents” committed in the United States from 2007 to 2016 were done “with a right-wing extremist or white supremacist motive”.[40] According to the Government Accountability Office of the United States, 73% of violent extremist incidents that resulted in deaths since September 12, 2001 were caused by right wing extremists groups.[41][42]

    New America’s tally shows that since September 11, 2001, incidents of right-wing terrorism have caused 68 deaths. Incidents causing death were:[39]

    Year Occurrence Location Victims Wounded* Victims Killed*
    2017 Car-ramming attack into counter-protestors at a white nationalist rally Charlottesville, Virginia 19 1
    2017 Portland train attack Portland, Oregon 1 2
    2017 Stabbing of Timothy Caughman New York City 0 1
    2015 Shooting at a showing of the film Trainwreck Lafayette, Louisiana 9 2
    2015 Planned Parenthood shooting Colorado Springs, Colorado 9 3
    2015 Shooting attack on worshippers at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church Charleston, South Carolina 9
    2014 Attack on Pennsylvania State Police barracks Blooming Grove, Pennsylvania 1 1
    2014 Ambush attack on Las Vegas police officers Las Vegas, Nevada 3
    2014 Overland Park Jewish Community Center shooting Overland Park, Kansas
    2013 Los Angeles International Airport shooting attack on TSA officer Los Angeles, California 6 1
    2013 Double murder committed by Jeremy Lee Moody and Christine Moody Jonesville, South Carolina 0 2
    2012 Ambush attack against St. John the Baptist Parish police St. John the Baptist Parish, Louisiana 2 2
    2012 Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting Oak Creek, Wisconsin 4 6
    2012 Tri-state killing spree by white supremacists David Pedersen and Holly Grigsby Multiple 4
    2011 FEAR group attacks Georgia 3
    2010 Murder committed by Aryan Brotherhood members Mississippi 0 1
    2010 Shooting at bookstore cafe perpetrated by Ross William Muehlberger Wichita Falls, Texas 4 1
    2010 Murder at gun range Carlisle, Pennsylvania 0 1
    2010 Suicide attack by airplane Austin, Texas 0 1
    2009 Murder of sex offender by white supremacists North Palm Springs, California 0 1
    2009 Murder committed by Charles Francis Gaskins Carmichael, California 0 1
    2009 United States Holocaust Memorial Museum shooting Washington, D.C. 1 1
    2009 Assassination of George Tiller Wichita, Kansas 1 1
    2009 Murders of Raul and Brisenia Flores Brockton, Massachusetts 1 2
    2009 Shooting of Pittsburgh police officers Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 2 3
    2009 Double murder Brockton, Massachusetts 1 2
    2009 Woodburn bank bombing Woodburn, Oregon 2 2
    2008 Knoxville Unitarian Universalist church shooting Knoxville, Tennessee 8 2
    2007 Murder of homeless man by Aryan Soldiers 0 1
    2006 Murder committed by John Ditullio 1 1
    2004 Bank robbery Tulsa, Oklahoma 0 1
    2003 Torture, abduction and murder Salinas, California 0 1
    2001 Post-September 11 shootings Multiple 1 2

  13. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Paulie wrote: “It’s not just Charlottesville or Dylan Roof or the Sikh Temple Shooter. Those are just examples. There have been many other violent far right, racist attacks which have actually killed people”

    People who insult, threaten, beat, “no platform”, shut down events and do property damange to anyone they disagree with are JUST as dangerous to liberty as people who kill people. The state does all those things and we think it’s wrong, so don’t give ANTIFA or anyone else a free pass.

    Here’s an example of these assholes screwing up the opening of a woman’s bookstore in Canada. They merely THOUGHT they might have some books there that offended LGBTs or whatever… And you know these same guys were out there protesting any “alt-rights” they could find! See the video and ask me if these people aren’t pretty damned anti-liberty!
    http://www.feministcurrent.com/2017/02/07/vancouver-womens-library-opens-amid-anti-feminist-backlash/

  14. paulie

    Compare and contrast: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_terrorism#United_States

    Modern left-wing terrorist groups in the United States developed from remnants of the Weather Underground and extremist elements of the Students for a Democratic Society. Between 1973 and 1975, the Symbionese Liberation Army was active, committing bank robberies, two murders, and other acts of violence. Most notably, the group kidnapped heiress Patty Hearst.[11] During the 1980s, both the May 19th Communist Organization (M19CO) and the smaller United Freedom Front were active. A 2001 study found “Leftist extremists were responsible for three fourths of the officially designated acts of terrorism in America in the 1980s.”[12] After 1985, following the dismantling of both groups, one source reports there were no confirmed acts of left-wing terrorism by similar groups.[13]

    Incidents of left-wing terrorism dropped off at the end of the Cold War (circa 1989), partly due to the loss of support for communism.[14]

  15. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Paulie: too bad you can’t change title and text to clearly distinguish ANTIFA from libertarian anti-fascists.

    Meanwhile, I put most of my relevant memes in a public facebook album I call “Pox on Left/Right Machos”. With some description and context where needed. Some pretty good ones, she said in her typically brash and arrogant female way. 🙂

    https://www.facebook.com/CarolMoore1776/media_set?set=a.10159414746485599.1073741833.744465598&type=3

  16. Matt Cholko

    I’m all for the party and movement denouncing alt-right douchebags and their ridiculous beliefs. But, it must be done carefully. I don’t see a significant problem with alt-righters in the LP. Any denunciation (if that’s a word) needs to make clear that were not looking to push people out of the party, as that would signal that those people are here. We just need to talk about how terrible they are, and leave it at that.

  17. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Moderation in all things. Let them know strongly that any bigoted or nonlibertarian views they have are BS and will fight them. Only make a big public media deal when one of them runs for significant office or something like charlottesville happens.

  18. robert capozzi

    pf, causes celebre are in my estimation matters involving current events, not history. I’d say roughly the last three months are relevant for a news cycle.

  19. Bondurant

    Why no simply denounce all totalitarian ideologies? There’s no room for fascism or socialism within the LP. Fuck neo-Nazi’s and Antifa.

  20. V for Vagina

    “I’d say roughly the last three months are relevant for a news cycle.”

    The background, which is a larger time frame, is also relevant. If Jihadis happen to not carry out any attacks for three months it doesn’t make it no longer relevant all of a sudden. And even by that ADD standard, the Portland train attacks were barely over three months ago.

  21. V for Vagina

    “Only make a big public media deal when one of them runs for significant office or something like charlottesville happens.”

    There’s already a press release from the LP.

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/08/lp-releaselibertarians-condemn-bigotry-as-irrational-and-repugnant/

    We’re not just talking about a single media statement here, at least I don’t think we are. We are talking about conscious and open dissociation on an ongoing basis. On the other hand, I don’t think anyone is suggesting making this anything like our sole focus either.

  22. ATBAFT

    I believe there’s a large libertarian presence in C-Ville, including Dr. Lark at UVA and an LNC member. Have any of the C-Ville libertarians posted anything objective about what went down there, including instigation of violence? Their perspective would be interesting to hear.

  23. John

    http://fortune.com/2017/08/26/charlottesville-violence-leaked-chats/

    “Well before a white nationalist “Unite the Right” demonstration turned deadly in Charlottesville this month, attendees were planning for violence, according to leaked online chats. In private chat channels, they shared advice on weaponry and tactics, including repeatedly broaching the idea of driving vehicles through opposition crowds. After the vehicular attack which killed counterprotestor Heather Heyer, users of the channel celebrated the event.”

  24. robert capozzi

    V: If Jihadis happen to not carry out any attacks for three months it doesn’t make it no longer relevant all of a sudden.

    me: Actually, I disagree. It makes them less relevant, though it strikes me that there have been a pretty steady stream of jihadist attacks since, say, 9/11. And the US is fighting at least 2 wars in the ME as an alleged attempt to quash jihadism, among other things.

    V: And even by that ADD standard, the Portland train attacks were barely over three months ago.

    me: Lone Nut situations, I suspect, do not have the same effect on the public consciousness. Protests that turn into riots are more what I point to. My sense is Antifa does more of these than the Hater Racist Right does, in part because my sense is there are more Antifatistas than Racist Rightists, especially those prone to violent acts.

  25. robert capozzi

    John,

    Looks like more Lone Nut instances. Concerning? Absolutely. But Lone Nuts are in my estimation different than rioting protesters en masse.

    Do you feel otherwise?

  26. V for Vagina

    “… there have been a pretty steady stream of jihadist attacks since, say, 9/11”

    Just like there has been a steady stream of far right and racist terror attacks in that same time frame and before.

    “My sense is Antifa does more of these than the Hater Racist Right does, in part because my sense is there are more Antifatistas than Racist Rightists, especially those prone to violent acts.”

    Those violent acts, however, are a lot less deadly than those of the far right, and lone wolves are not so lone when it happens on a pretty regular basis and is encouraged by a whole subculture, particularly but not only online.

    The numbers of violent antifa are much smaller than the numbers of those who attend antifascist counterprotests. Here is one article from a Marxist group that attended recent protests in CA, which is very critical both of the violent black bloc contingent as well as the liberals that they say allowed violence to happen:

    http://www.themilitant.com

    BERKELEY, Calif. — A crowd of 4,000 gathered in Berkeley’s Martin Luther King Jr. Civic Center Park Aug. 27, the culmination of a weekend of protests against racism in the San Francisco Bay Area. The previous day 6,000 marched through the streets of San Francisco, gathering at three separate locations.
    Members and supporters of the Socialist Workers Party joined in both actions, asking workers to join with them in speaking out against racist attacks and discussing and debating how to build this fight among working people.

    A small portion of those who assembled in Berkeley, some 200 self-proclaimed “antifa,” short for anti-fascist, thugs dressed in black and wearing bandanas over their faces broke out of the crowd and carried out assaults on several of three dozen supporters of President Trump and others who had come to the park to debate with the protesters.

    Cops mobilized in the hundreds by “progressive” Berkeley Mayor Jesse Arreguín retreated and did nothing to stop the attacks, only intervening after some individuals had been beaten.

    It was clear this was the plan of the liberal government in Berkeley all along. “We made a strategic decision to move officers,” police spokeswoman Jennifer Coats told the San Francisco Chronicle.

    The Bay Area demonstrations came on the heels of the mobilizations against racism in Charlottesville, Virginia, and a big action of 40,000 in Boston Aug. 19 to speak out against racism. The Bay Area actions were called to counter two other rallies called for the weekend. In San Francisco a conservative group called Patriot Prayer organized by Joey Gibson from Portland, Oregon, announced they were going to hold a rally in Crissy Field Park.

    In Berkeley, Amber Cummings, a transgender supporter of President Trump, called a “No to Marxism in America” rally, targeting the anti-free speech actions of antifa forces. Both organizers stated that they are not racists and did not want support for their actions from neo-Nazi’s or other white supremacists.

    Liberal Democratic Party politicians on both sides of the Bay and several members of Congress, including Democratic House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi and U.S. Sen. Dianne Feinstein, mounted a campaign calling for the conservative actions to be shut down. The Chronicle and other media outlets in the Bay Area joined in, playing up the threat of violence. Berkeley officials denied Cummings a rally permit.

    In the midst of the violence-baiting attacks on them, and antifa threats of physical attacks, both Gibson and Cummings called off their events. Gibson then announced a press conference for Alamo Square Park.

    Early on Saturday he canceled his press conference. In spite of this, 3,000 people came to the park. But overnight the cops had fenced it in and a cordon of hundreds of them stood inside the fence. Initially the cops prevented many who wanted to protest from being able to enter from adjacent streets. As the crowd grew at several intersections, the cops opened the streets and the anti-racist protesters gathered and listened to speakers.

    Many in the crowd on both days carried homemade signs denouncing racism, “hate,” and white supremacy. Impacted by extensive media coverage of racists demonstrating in Charlottesville, some argued that fascist threats are growing in the United States.

    Cecele Carter, a history teacher from San Jose, carried a sign at the San Francisco Civic Center with pictures from Nazi Germany and a decades-old Ku Klux Klan rally. “I tell my students if they aren’t interested in history and learn its lessons, they are doomed to repeat it,” she told the Militant.

    The antifa thugs didn’t try to differentiate between Trump supporters, supposed white supremacists looking to debate politics, journalists, or any others they chose to target — like one person wearing a T-shirt with a picture of Greek philosopher Socrates. Their goal was to limit and overshadow the outpouring against racism that motivated most in the weekend crowds. A majority of those this reporter spoke to opposed the antifa attacks, and many said they resented how these physical threats and attacks led to many leaving the park. “They are a distraction from the message today of protesting racism,” said Bill Gregory, a veteran of social protests in the area.

    “Obviously I am not a Klansman,” Jordan Davis, 25, who carried a pro-Donald Trump banner in Berkeley, told the Chronicle. “They are trying to lump Trump supporters in with a group that is pretty much nonexistent.”

    Dennis Richter, organizer of the Los Angeles Socialist Workers Party, joined the actions on both days. He intervened in Berkeley with a few other protesters to halt an antifa attack on a man not far from a Socialist Workers literature table.

    “They claim to be against fascism, but these attacks on individuals who you don’t agree with are in fact stock and trade of fascists. These methods of attempting to shut down civil discourse are alien to the working class,” Richter said. “They echo the liberal Democrats and media who blame workers for the election of Donald Trump, saying it reflects a rise in racism among Caucasian workers.

    “This is false,” Richter said. “Our party discusses politics with workers at their homes all over this country. There is less racism now than anytime in U.S. history.”

    Immediately following the actions, Berkeley Mayor Arreguín urged the University of California there to cancel a conservative campus group’s plans for a “Free Speech Week” in September.

    Apologies for quoting the whole thing but I did not see a link to the story; it will be replaced on the front page as of their next issue.

  27. George Phillies

    As an alternative opinion, readers might note an American Red Guards contingent. But at least they are enjoying Constitutional Open Carry.

    https://redguardsaustin.wordpress.com/2017/05/16/in-these-times-pacifists-are-shameful/

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/09/alt-left-terrorism-antifa-declare-everything-battlefield-advocate-violent-revolution-capitalism/

    and note this Politico coverage

    http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/01/antifa-charlottesville-violence-fbi-2422

  28. Matt

    Why would I read something that uses a made up term like “alt left”? The alt right calls itself that. “Alt left” is a propaganda term, which means it’s a good indication that whoever is using it is either up to no good or being used by others who are.

  29. Matt

    Against my better judgment followed one of Phillies’ links.

    “Austin, Texas-based Antifa group known as “Red Guards Austin” are gaining momentum and prominence in the Texas anti-fascist scene and are calling for dramatic actions….”

    In other words they are big talkers. But what have they actually done? Anything?

  30. Root's Teeth Are Awesome

    Matt: “Alt left” is a propaganda term, which means it’s a good indication that whoever is using it is either up to no good or being used by others who are.

    I think Trump coined the phrase “Alt Left” in his Charlottesville response. So someone who says “Alt Left” could simply be an Average Joe Trump supporter, parroting his beloved president.

    Normally, I’d assume that if a president says a phrase, it was coined by one of his speech writers. But Trump is famous for shooting from the hip, writing his own stuff. So “Alt Left” might actually be his own coinage.

  31. dL

    There certainly is a direct paleo-libertarian pipeline to the alt-right. That is beyond dispute. The extent that paleo-libertarianism is associated w/ libertarianism in general will partly be a function of the extent the general libertarian movement parrots the alt-right RE: the characterization of opposition groups like antifa.

    There is nothing new about antifa. Where there has been any organized fascism, state or otherwise, there has been an antifa counter-organization. This goes back to the Spanish Civil War.

    Fascism is a reactionary organization for the capture of state power. Antifa is the counter-organization to such organization that relies on direct action as the counter- means instead of the state. While a libertarian certainly is under no litmus test to sanction every antifa tactic, any libertarian worth is his/her salt should nonetheless never make a moral equivalence between antifa and fascism. Doing so, IMHO, demonstrates one of the better progressive critiques against American libertarianism, Namely, that it is fundamentally culturally aligned w/ the right-wing. And that, in practice, its influence ultimately only serves to empower the right.

    If I were a progressive wag, I would write something like “Reason Mag and Cato got their Libertarian Moment;” and it is the alt-right.” For every essay/article that mainstream libertarian rags devote to pooh-pahing the connection to the alt-right, they will write three attacking antifa. An objective observer would rightly wonder who exactly is buttering these people’s bread?

  32. dL

    Why would I read something that uses a made up term like “alt left”?

    You wouldn’t…unless, of course, of you suffer from “leftist derangement syndrome.” A good clue that one indeed suffers from that is a reading list that includes GatewayPundit.

  33. dL

    Word “ANTIFA” should describe ONLY these leftists who use black bloc violent tactics.

    That’s not necessarily how they describe themselves. In the “turn about is fair play” category, I would refrain from inventing your own definition for something, lest you get the same courtesy in return. Something like: a “libertarian” should only describe those rightists who like to march w/ tiki torches. Avoiding this, of course, is sort of the point of the original article.

  34. dL

    I think Trump coined the phrase “Alt Left” in his Charlottesville response. So someone who says “Alt Left” could simply be an Average Joe Trump supporter, parroting his beloved president.

    Actually, the term was originally coined by the Clintonistas to disparage the Bernie Sanders wing of the democratic party. “Alt-left” is an accusation. No one self-identifies by that term.

  35. dL

    Why no simply denounce all totalitarian ideologies? There’s no room for fascism or socialism within the LP. Fuck neo-Nazi’s and Antifa.

    To make a moral equivalence between libertarian socialism and fascism is a good demonstration of the intellectual ignorance necessary to be duped into equating fascism w/ antifa.

  36. Thomas L. Knapp

    “There certainly is a direct paleo-libertarian pipeline to the alt-right.”

    No, there isn’t. There’s a direct paleo-CONSERVATIVE pipeline to the alt right.

    Since libertarianism originated on the political left, Paleo-LIBERTARIANISM breaks down as just another word for left-libertarianism (which is just another word for libertarianism).

  37. robert capozzi

    v: Those violent acts, however, are a lot less deadly than those of the far right, and lone wolves are not so lone when it happens on a pretty regular basis and is encouraged by a whole subculture, particularly but not only online.

    me: Stipulated. I’m making a different point that I guess I’ve not explained well. For those not paying very close attention to news and history, in recent months there’ve been several Antifa protests that have turned violent and made the news. There’s been one Racist Right protest that turned violent.

    For Ls, C’ville has been very, very damaging because some of the LEADERS of the Racist Right have in the very recent past been LEADING (albeit fringe of the fringe) in the LM and LP. While C’ville was one dramatic event, there is probably a vague sense that the Racist Right are a dangerous bunch, despite their tiny numbers.

    For Ma and Pa Kettle, there is no association between Antifa and Ls. They MIGHT see an association with Ls, sad to say, and they would not be incorrect in concluding so.

    From a reputation management perspective, strongly condemning the Racist Right is the first order of business very specifically, as that association is particularly damaging to the prospects for peace and liberty.

    The second order of business is to condemn violence as a means of political speech. The third order would probably be to — despite one and two — to continue to stand for free speech, even if we are witnessing pronounced excesses recently from the far right and far left in terms of political expression.

    Like I said, I agree with the thrust of PF’s essay.

    There is no equivalence between Antifa and the Racist Right because the latter ended in a death. The firm of Spencer, Invictus, Cantwell & Co. are doing great damage to the country AND TO the LM, in fact and optically. That needs to be specifically called out.

    More generally, the behavior of Antifa should be alluded to as well, but to also acknowledge the obvious — that it’s not equivalent to the Racist Right as an immediate (albeit small numbered) threat.

    And now apparently NK has conducted another nuke test.

    Hold onto your hats.

  38. V for Vagina

    I think we agree, Robert.

    https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2014/04/17/splc-report-nearly-100-murdered-stormfront-users

    “Almost 100 people were murdered over the last five years by registered users of Stormfront, the largest racist Web forum in the world, according to a report released today by the Southern Poverty Law Center. The forum in effect acts to nurture budding killers and give them moral support, the report says.”

    When someone can name an antifa forum that has about 100 bodies attributed to its participants I will consider the merits of equating the two. Yes we should condemn initiation of force regardless of the source – it’s in our pledge, statement of principles, and every foundational bloc of libertarianism, after all – we should never pretend that there’s an equal amount of it from fascists and antifascists. There simply isn’t. And we should certainly not ignore that one of these movements has bloodied and soiled our own and one hasn’t. It’s clear where the main thrust of our condemnation should be. And at the same time we should certainly condemn political violence in general, and uphold free speech and free assembly.

  39. paulie

    People who insult, threaten, beat, “no platform”, shut down events and do property damange to anyone they disagree with are JUST as dangerous to liberty as people who kill people. The state does all those things and we think it’s wrong, so don’t give ANTIFA or anyone else a free pass.

    I’m in no way saying those other things are OK, but I will stick with saying that actual murders are still worse. There’s also the little matter that the general public is not confusing them with libertarians.

    See the video and ask me if these people aren’t pretty damned anti-liberty!

    Of course they are. My point was never that everyone on the far left is pro-liberty. If you got that out of my article either I didn’t write clearly or you didn’t read it with enough attention,

  40. robert capozzi

    tk: No, there isn’t. There’s a direct paleo-CONSERVATIVE pipeline to the alt right.

    me: This illustrates the challenge of labels and definitions. It’s why I use the term NAPsters as a more precise term. Certainly Woods and Rockwell state that they base their political belief system on the NAP. Frequently so.

    So did Cantwell. He may still do so.

    I think it’s fair to refer to these 3 at least as paleo-NAPsters.

  41. paulie

    Antifa ha ha ha

    I addressed this bit of nonsense before.

    Ryan Ramsey’s article is in fact full of attacks, slander and lies. Looking at just the headline alone: I am not editor in chief at IPR and in fact there is no such position. I am not a terrorist, and that is a slanderous claim. Moving beyond the headline I address numerous inaccurate statements, slanders, libel and downright lies in Ramsey’s article in a series of comments starting at http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/libertarians-united-against-fascism-write-open-letter-to-lnc-starchild-responds/#comment-1581189 and continuing over a couple of dozen comments.

    To take one egregious example, Ramsey continually asserts that I had something to do with killing a dog. I did not, and while he is not the first person to spread this lie it is nevertheless a lie and he is not repeating it as a statement by someone else but rather as something he knows to be true, unlike the statements about him by others that I have published. There are many similar falsehoods throughout the article which I addressed in IPR comments.

  42. paulie

    The slanderous lies from Ramsey were tit for tat retaliation – he said so himself, and offered a reciprocal unpublishing – because I reported the news that his buddy Augustus Invictus, one of the Charlottesville organizers, had been accused of a pattern of domestic violence, kidnapping and rape by his ex-fiancee. I was simply reporting the news, not taking a stance, except in the comments; and even there I was careful to separate what I knew to be fact from my opinion and what others alleged. Furthermore, I reposted accurate reporting about Ryan Ramsey and his associates previously published elsewhere. His response was to

    1) Publish lies about me, Warren Redlich and IPR, linked above

    2) Offer to take them down if we took down our own reporting

    3) Threaten to sic law enforcement on me for supposedly being a terrorist and threatening his wife, none of which is even remotely true

    4) His pal Invictus broached the possibility of suing us (but said he wasn’t doing that, at least at that time)

    5) Invictus later issued a non-specific threat against me and a few other people saying we will “get what is coming to us.” Among many other people he and his associates have threatened.

    So this is among the reasons why I find it laughable that their side is all about free speech. They have zero tolerance for any kind of speech that is critical of them. They have promised repeatedly to kill leftists at their events, and in Charlottesville they did exactly that. They have no tolerance for freedom of the press or any other speech or assembly that does not conform to their own. And they don’t just talk about it, they actually injure and kill people.

  43. paulie

    Paulie: too bad you can’t change title and text to clearly distinguish ANTIFA from libertarian anti-fascists.

    They point of the article was two-fold. One was that the threat of the alt right within the party and movement itself, and being falsely associated with it, is far greater than any current threat from a libertarian socialist caucus. The second was that even in the world at large the violence from the far right right now is a lot worse than the violence of the far left. When you combine those two things it should become obvious which problem should be of far greater concern to the libertarian movement, LP and LP radical caucus alike.

  44. paulie

    I believe there’s a large libertarian presence in C-Ville, including Dr. Lark at UVA and an LNC member.

    Like the vast majority of the sensible citizens of Charlottesville, chances are very good that Dr. Lark stayed away from the protests. I would certainly not blame a libertarian professor for finding somewhere else to be other than the one part of town where nazis and anarcho-communists are hurling insults, pepper spray, rocks, bottles etc at each other. Most people don’t hang around those sorts of things waiting for trouble to break out; they consciously avoid them, and if they happen to stumble across them by accident, mutter a few curse words and turn around to get away from it as soon as possible.

  45. paulie

    “Alt left” is a propaganda term, which means it’s a good indication that whoever is using it is either up to no good or being used by others who are.

    …someone who says “Alt Left” could simply be an Average Joe Trump supporter, parroting his beloved president.

    In other words, such a person would be someone who is being used by others who are up to no good.

  46. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Paulie wrote: “They point of the article was two-fold. One was that the threat of the alt right within the party and movement itself, and being falsely associated with it, is far greater than any current threat from a libertarian socialist caucus. The second was that even in the world at large the violence from the far right right now is a lot worse than the violence of the far left. When you combine those two things it should become obvious which problem should be of far greater concern to the libertarian movement, LP and LP radical caucus alike.”

    I get that. But people ALSO ticked at antifa/black bloc – as I have been since they came in bullying progressives and peaceniks starting in 2000!! – it’s easy to see red at very word ANTIFA. And obviously some people get even angrier than me. So just specifying “libertarian anti-fascists” will at least prevent misunderstandings by rational people.

    Also glad you clarified about Ramsey allegations. I missed that much earlier thread.

    Right now Ramsey must be in real bad place: Invictus deserted him, he couldn’t get to Charlottesville and get all that attention that Chris Cantwell got, his new child died, he was in a cycle accident. His wife Brandi on FB even has denounced people trash talking race, in relation to the nice black nurse who took care of her dying baby. Maybe he’ll think twice about his evil ways.

  47. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Forgot to mention about leftist gun clubs, their model is Communist Cuba and Venuzuela where the lefty militias heavily armed to intimidate people. SO DISGUSTING!!

  48. paulie

    his new child died, he was in a cycle accident

    I’m sorry to hear that. Despite his fucked up politics and him spreading lies about me I would never wish that on anyone.

  49. paulie

    George. Thanks for links to armed lefties.

    Armed and violent are two different things. We have libertarians participate in open carry marches and that’s not a violent thing at all. If they are armed and starting trouble that’s something else but again yes, there is certainly left wing violence, it just doesn’t reach the level of right wing violence right now – not even in the same league. Where are the antifa murders?

  50. dL

    No, there isn’t. There’s a direct paleo-CONSERVATIVE pipeline to the alt right.

    well, there’s that, too.

    Since libertarianism originated on the political left, Paleo-LIBERTARIANISM breaks down as just another word for left-libertarianism (which is just another word for libertarianism).

    That’s an exercise of the “no true scotsman” fallacy.

  51. Kevin S Bjornson

    Libertarianism did not originate in the left chamber of the French assembly. It originated in the Roman Republic, which developed common and natural law. Further, the meaning of “left” has changed, so using old terminology is misleading.

    “The terms “left” and “right” appeared during the French Revolution of 1789 when members of the National Assembly divided into supporters of the king to the president’s right and supporters of the revolution to his left.”

    This French left did pay lip service to the old Republic, but failed utterly to understand it’s guiding principles (at least the ideal element). Napolean fancied himself a classical liberal and humanist, but was simply another thug.

    Libertarianism is neither right nor left. It does not correspond to either wing. The real wings are force-initiation at one extreme, and pacifism at the other. Liberty lies in the golden mean, and justifies force in defense and retaliation against the initiation of force.

  52. dL

    Libertarianism did not originate in the left chamber of the French assembly. It originated in the Roman Republic, which developed common and natural law.

    Yeah, and you keep repeating that fakeHistory bullshit…

  53. Anthony Dlugos

    I’m not too well versed on the deep origins of libertarianism, but there’s no question that paulie’s main point is correct: the LP’s current problem is with alt-right/paleo/conservative connections.

  54. Kevin S Bjornson

    Perhaps Antifa thuggery results in fewer deaths than from neo-nazis, but if so, that is probably due to their greater discipline and organization. Most political assaults come from the likes of Antifa.

    The OKC bombing by McVeigh and associates, has both neo-Nazis and Islamist connections. See Jayna Davis and her documentary book, “The Third Terrorist”.

    Concerning DL’s characterization of my previous comments as “bullshit”, he’s not clear what part he objects to, and no reasons are given. DL is not an oracle and cannot reasonably expect people to agree with him simply because he has pronounced judgment.

  55. Andy

    The Oklahome City bombing was an inside job carried out by people within the federal government. McVeigh was a pasty.

    I am astounded that there are still people here who buy into these false flags.

  56. V for Vagina

    “Perhaps Antifa thuggery results in fewer deaths than from neo-nazis,”

    Name one single death from antifa thuggery. It’s not “perhaps fewer,” we are not talking in the same league at all. Plenty of links above or furnish your own.

    “See Jayna Davis and her documentary book, “The Third Terrorist”.”

    LOL. I like my fiction to be more plausible as well as more entertaining, and my conspiracy theory reading to be at least a little bit believable.

    “Concerning DL’s characterization of my previous comments as “bullshit”, ”

    dL is correct that libertarians such as Bastiat sat on the left in the French parliament. As for libertarianism , it goes back to at least Lao Tzu in the 6th century BC in China.

  57. Anthony Dlugos

    “The Oklahome City bombing was an inside job carried out by people within the federal government. McVeigh was a pasty.

    I am astounded that there are still people here who buy into these false flags.”

    lol. keep the ridiculousness coming, Andy. Its like my own little view into a guy in a padded room, and I get to enjoy of dram of scotch while you run around bouncing off the walls.

  58. robert capozzi

    Anyone,

    What is the fascination with the “origins” of L thought? Why should we care about ancient Roman or French history? What does that have to do with politics in America in 2017?

  59. Kevin S Bjornson

    The Feds had an informant who warned them about the plans. That doesn’t mean the Feds orchestrated the event, they might have let it happen (for the political effects, which helped Clinton) or they might just be incompetent.

    Still it was a false-flag in the sense that Tim’s partner had to go to the Philippines to get trained in how to make explosives (trained by a Jihadist); and they helped in other ways.

  60. paulie

    What is the fascination with the “origins” of L thought? Why should we care about ancient Roman or French history? What does that have to do with politics in America in 2017?

    It helps to know the historical context of how ideas evolve to place them in a larger context. Rothbard’s “Left and Right”: Forty Years Later by Roderick Long does a good job of this.

  61. dL

    “Concerning DL’s characterization of my previous comments as “bullshit”, ”

    dL is correct that libertarians such as Bastiat sat on the left in the French parliament. As for libertarianism , it goes back to at least Lao Tzu in the 6th century BC in China.

    There are previous long back and forth commentaries RE: Bjornson’s Roman/libertarian claim. I’m not interested in rehashing the subject, particularly when the interlocutor in question appears to either be senile or feigning senility.

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/07/augustus-sol-invictus-statement-concerning-my-registration-with-the-republican-party/#comment-1635386

  62. dL

    Anyone,

    What is the fascination with the “origins” of L thought? Why should we care about ancient Roman or French history? What does that have to do with politics in America in 2017?

    On this, I do have to concur w/ Keynes.


    “Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist. Madmen in authority, who hear voices in the air, are distilling their frenzy from some academic scribbler of a few years back”

  63. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    “V” wrote: Name one single death from antifa thuggery. It’s not “perhaps fewer,” we are not talking in the same league at all. Plenty of links above or furnish your own.

    Again, it is the THREAT of physical attacks, arson, gunfire and killing that gives BOTH armed groups their feeling of power. They BOTH go in saying they are going to defend themselves. To paraphrase Chris Cantwell – we won’t agress on them but if they do, we will KILL them.” I think lots of those lefties feel the same way. The black bloc machos have been saying that sort of thing since 2000.

    You have seen the videos of antifas smashing people with bicycle locks? That could kill someone. So could their sticks and stones and molotov cocktails.

    Here’s a search for video of bicycle lock. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=antifa+bicycle+lock

    Arson already has been seen of building at Berkeley protest and private car at Trump inauguration. Up from burning police cars and trash cans. Just because ANTIFA arson has harmed or killed anyone yet doesn’t mean it won’t. These threats are great ways of intimidating nonviolent activists into silence and it’s been used against me and others in the past and even now. Just had a complaint from a peace activists about it the other day.

    Stop apologizing for this black bloc nonsense. I’m assuming libertarian anti-fascists are NOT into such tactics.

  64. paulie

    When two sides keep threatening to kill people and one side has actually done it a bunch of times while the other one never has, naturally one side has more credibility as far as such threats go. That’s not to make excuses for either of them and of course we are not into such tactics.

  65. robert capozzi

    dL quoting JMK: “Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist. Madmen in authority, who hear voices in the air, are distilling their frenzy from some academic scribbler of a few years back”

    me: I stipulate that my views — and probably most people’s opinions — are derived and synthesized from previous thinkers. My influences are Hayek and Lao Tzu, for ex. I might disagree with them on some matters, or I might apply their ideas to the modern context in ways that are appreciably different from other Hayek Taoists.

    I’m still not convinced that what some Roman Senators or French Assemblymen thought might well be of some minor interest today, but I still don’t get how claiming one or the other is the fountainhead for contemporary NAPsterism just seem beside the point, and whether it was “left” or “right” seems even less germane.

    But, carry on….

  66. Kevin S Bjornson

    At the street level, neo-nazi thugs tend to be more lethal than left thugs; because Nazis identify according to more visceral criteria, while the left traditionally organizes according to political ideas. This explains why Nazis tended to dominate communists, in German streets of the 1920s.

    But if we were to count black street gangs as black nationalists, clearly there are more deaths from them (even though not always identified as political, that is just a label), than white nationalists. Because European culture is more individualistic, there tends to be less tribalism among whites than non-whites. So white nationalism is particularly dangerous, because it tends to attract a much smaller percentage of very alienated thugs. While black and hispanic nationalism is more accepted in those tribes, attracting more of a mainstream; and most resulting deaths are more drug-trade related than political.

    There tends to be more forceful suppression of conservatives and Trump supporters, while very rarely are leftist rallies disrupted. Here is a good summary of such events,
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/the-rise-of-the-violent-left/534192/

    To make an analogy; clearly there are more private murders in the US, than murders by police. But if you add up all the smaller aggressions the police do, the police commit more aggressions than private persons, despite being a small percent of the population.

  67. Kevin S Bjornson

    As to why we should care where/when the liberty philosophy originated–think about that for a minute.

    Libertarianism is based on natural justice. We assert that free enterprise is not only more efficient, but that force-initiation is morally wrong, even unjust.

    Liberty knowledge is like other types of knowledge. How we arrive at that knowledge, is most important. For instance, for something to be accepted in science, there must be experiments. It’s not enough for someone to simply proclaim a conclusion, like an oracle.

    Confucius has made libertarian statements, but how did he arrive at those conclusions? The Greco-Roman system used to common law method to arrive at approximate knowledge of natural justice.

    Many self-identified “libertarians” today have different axioms which they seem to accept on faith. Then they often arrive at absurd conclusions through a process of deducing from faulty assumptions. Many are even comical, in a reductio ad absurdum.

    If something is truly natural, that means it is a law that governs reality. Which means, we may expect that there are libertarians in every generation. For a political philosophy to suddenly arise, ex nihilo, like a bolt of lightning from the sky (and for the first time), I would be very skeptical.

  68. dL

    me: I stipulate that my views — and probably most people’s opinions — are derived and synthesized from previous thinkers. My influences are Hayek and Lao Tzu, for ex. I might disagree with them on some matters, or I might apply their ideas to the modern context in ways that are appreciably different from other Hayek Taoists.

    Well, I didn’t say people’s views are not synthetic constructions.

    I’m still not convinced that what some Roman Senators or French Assemblymen thought might well be of some minor interest today, but I still don’t get how claiming one or the other is the fountainhead for contemporary NAPsterism just seem beside the point, and whether it was “left” or “right” seems even less germane.

    Obviously, if you are holding synthetic constructs in your head, it helps to know what actually has been synthesized instead of renting out your brain as a mere repository for parroting whatever happens to be dumped into it.

    For example, the statement: “libertarianism is neither left-wing nor right-wing.” Now who was the first person to actually say that? Is that the historical position? Is it the correct position.? Is it even an important question? etc..etc…

    It is difficult, if not impossible, to explore the answers to those questions w/o a historical context. Rejoinders of the form,” why should anyone care a whiff about stuff that the average joe six pack voter on the street can give a rat’s ass about” is merely repeating the Keynes’ fallacy.

    Another example: because I have a historical knowledge of libertarianism, my eyes glaze over whenever you start up w/ your “NAPster” business. It’s just a term you’ve made up.

  69. robert capozzi

    ksb: If something is truly natural, that means it is a law that governs reality.

    me: I guess this sentence kinda sounds true enough, but it would need a LOT of clarification. “Natural” sounds like a good thing and discovering “laws” that govern reality also sounds good. What those actually are is up for grabs, subject to a very wide interpretation — so wide as to render the concepts not of obvious use.

    ksb: Which means, we may expect that there are libertarians in every generation. For a political philosophy to suddenly arise, ex nihilo, like a bolt of lightning from the sky (and for the first time), I would be very skeptical.

    me: Yes, it does seem unlikely, especially for those who define L as NAP. Randian-Rothbardian NAPsterism congealed in the 60s in NYC, if memory served. Elements of their thought systems can be traced back in a forensic manner, but it all still feels of no help today. I say that because even among NAPsters we get a fairly wide divergence of opinion.

  70. robert capozzi

    dL: It is difficult, if not impossible, to explore the answers to those questions w/o a historical context. … my eyes glaze over whenever you start up w/ your “NAPster” business. It’s just a term you’ve made up.

    me: I have no particular problem with exploring those questions. It might be kinda fun, like putting together a puzzle. But I note that NAP Adherents seem to argue interminably over the history of NAPster thought, and there seems no resolution from all the argumentation. But even if we could envisage a breakthrough where all NAPsters were on the same page about the history of NAPsterism, it’s not obvious that that would lead to a Great Leap Forward in political philosophy, much less bringing about massive rollbacks of the State.

    Yes, I did in a sense make up the term NAPster, although it’s highly derivative of TK’s Kn@ppster blog. It seems like a serviceable enough label to differentiate the subset of libertarians who find the NAP the political equivalent of the Ten Commandments from the rest of the universe of Ls who prefer a social order of maximal peace and liberty.

    I am as ever open to more serviceable terms. Know any?

  71. V for Vagina

    “But if we were to count black street gangs as black nationalists…”

    That would be quite a stretch. The Italian mafia and Irish hoodlums in Boston are not white nationalists, either. Nationalists are people whose political and/or criminal activity is centered around the idea of their ethnicity or race against all others (and usually, as superior to all others). Street gangs are generally just people from the same neighborhood who band together for the purpose of making money, protecting each other, having fun and having a sense of belonging. They generally don’t care about the nation; indeed, they tend to see their gang as their nation. Street gangs tend to kill people primarily of the same race as themselves who are involved in other nearby street gangs. Some of them become racial nationalists in prison, but that’s not what they are on the streets.

    I don’t think we should classify any kind of nationalists as left wing. Other than the race itself, their ideology tends to be pretty similar whether they are white, black or whatever. Socially, they tend to be reactionary, without much regard for the rights of women or LGBT people, and zero tolerance for drugs in their own community. They also tend to all take an illiberal attitude towards race mixing and any type of non-conformist individualism. Economically, they tend to be just fine with a welfare state for their own ethnic or racial group but not so much for others. As far as foreign policy, almost all of them would prefer a retrenchment as they see no point in fighting other people’s wars. The one exception I can think of would be Jewish nationalists, some of whom support an aggressive US foreign policy in the middle east. However, even some of them would prefer that the US butt out, as they see an alliance with the US as putting unnecessary constraints on Israel. However, all nationalists tend to be militaristic and itching for a race war.

    Given all these similarities, why would we classify black nationalism on the left and white nationalism on the right? It seems to me that if anything, they are both fascist movements. I wouldn’t say that Jihadis are on the left either.

  72. Root's Teeth Are Awesome

    paulie: When two sides keep threatening to kill people and one side has actually done it a bunch of times while the other one never has, naturally one side has more credibility as far as such threats go.

    America’s radical Left, broadly defined, does have blood on its hands.

    Micah Xavier Johnson killed five Dallas police officers last year. While Johnson wasn’t an official member, he had “liked” the Facebook pages of the New Black Panther Party, Nation of Islam, and Black Riders Liberation Army. Clearly, he was inspired by those groups’ politics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_shooting_of_Dallas_police_officers

    James Hodgkinson, a progressive activist, shot Republican Congressman Steve Scalise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Congressional_baseball_shooting

    You might say that lone wolves or black nationalists don’t count. I disagree. Dangerous murderers are found on both the radical Left and Right.

    The radical Left has a long history of violence. Recall the Weather Underground, Symbionese Liberation Army, and Baader-Meinhof Gang of the 1960s/70s? And Joseph Conrad’s The Secret Agent, written over a century ago, was inspired by the anarchist bombers and murderers of the 1800s.

    Antifa is rooted in the tradition of such radical Left violence.

  73. Root's Teeth Are Awesome

    V for Vagina: why would we classify black nationalism on the left and white nationalism on the right?

    I’m guessing it’s because …

    1. The Right defends the Status Quo Establishment, while the Left fights the Status Quo Establishment.

    2. Today’s Status Quo Establishment is perceived as one of white privilege.

    3. Thus, white nationalists are seen as defending the Status Quo Establishment, while black nationalists are seen as fighting the Status Quo Establishment.

    Ironically, in reality, white nationalists are probably the farthest outside the Status Quo Establishment, the least acceptable of political factions.

  74. V for Vagina

    “America’s radical Left, broadly defined, does have blood on its hands.

    Micah Xavier Johnson killed five Dallas police officers last year. While Johnson wasn’t an official member, he had “liked” the Facebook pages of the New Black Panther Party, Nation of Islam, and Black Riders Liberation Army. ”

    See @07:52 why I do not believe that black nationalists should be considered to be on the left. But even if we count them as being on the left – again, a very dubious premise at best – they are still way short of the body count of the far right and racist white supremacists in recent decades. If he was a Jihadi the question of whether he should be considered to be on the left is double. What exactly would make Jihadis left wing? They certainly have a far right stance on social issues such as sexual politics and drug prohibition. In fact there is a lot of agreement on the issues between white nationalists, jihadis and even many black nationalists.

    “James Hodgkinson, a progressive activist, shot Republican Congressman Steve Scalise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Congressional_baseball_shooting

    Certainly a reprehensible act, but Steve Scalise survived. It’s telling that you are reaching for such examples – people whose classification on the left is dubious at best and shootings which did not result in any deaths – against the mountain of dead bodies piled up by the racist right in recent decades in the USA. Speaking of reaching,

    “The radical Left has a long history of violence. Recall the Weather Underground, Symbionese Liberation Army, and Baader-Meinhof Gang of the 1960s/70s? And Joseph Conrad’s The Secret Agent, written over a century ago, was inspired by the anarchist bombers and murderers of the 1800s.”

    The article we are commenting on acknowledged as much. Nevertheless it remain true that in recent decades, in the USA, white supremacists have killed a lot more people than anyone even remotely like antifa.

    “Antifa is rooted in the tradition of such radical Left violence.”

    Only if you define Antifa as Carol does above. Otherwise, it just means antifascism, in which case your statement is not even remotely true. But even using the narrow definition – violent, black bloc anarchocommunists – it still remains true that they are not piling up bodies in the USA in recent decades. And even if you expand the definition to include black supremacists their pile of bodies still remains a lot smaller – again in the US, in recent decades – than that of the fascists.

    The other major premise of this article is also standing up: no one is confusing violent anarcho-communists with libertarians or the LP, whereas confusion between violent right wing thugs and libertarians is widespread – among the thugs themselves, among establishment media, and among some within the broader liberty movement and the LP itself.

  75. V for Vagina

    “1. The Right defends the Status Quo Establishment, while the Left fights the Status Quo Establishment.

    2. Today’s Status Quo Establishment is perceived as one of white privilege.”

    It depends on who is doing the seeing. The white nationalists certainly don’t believe that the status quo is white privilege. Average everyday Trump voters tend not to see it that way either, from what I have seen.

    Besides, white nationalists don’t just want white privilege; they want a white ethno-state, which is most certainly not the status quo nor what anyone in the establishment would say they want.

    I still say that the broader politics of black nationalists and white nationalists are too similar in too many ways to accurately place them on opposite sides of a political spectrum.

    But again, even if we grant your premise, we still have to deal with the fact that the piles of bodies – other than those which have long since decayed down to the bones – is much larger on one side than on the other.

  76. dL

    But even if we could envisage a breakthrough where all NAPsters were on the same page about the history of NAPsterism, it’s not obvious that that would lead to a Great Leap Forward in political philosophy, much less bringing about massive rollbacks of the State.

    Libertarianism has communist, socialist and capitalist wings RE property. There is no convergence and never will be any convergence in the thing.

  77. Thane Eichenauer

    A well written article by Paul Frankel.

    As far as the Powers That Be that regulate the comments here at IPR I am less impressed with. Is the IPR orthodoxy trembling because some bald guy named Paddy Tarleton writes a song with video accompaniment? Are not the many and varied commenters here able to evaluate the value (or lack) of a song? An author name, a song title and subtitle and an URL. I would just as well a comment be condemned than vanished.

    I favor the Chris Ernesto path of Win the Debate, Don’t Shut It Down.
    https://www.libertarianinstitute.org/justice/win-debate-dont-shut/

  78. Thane Eichenauer

    I offer in ROT13 encrypted form the vanished comment from the dreaded commenter JT.

    Cnqql Gneyrgba – Puneybggrfivyyr Onyynq (Jne vf Pbzvat)

    uggcf://jjj.lbhghor.pbz/jngpu?i=RHIWMl4Afu4

    Online decryption available at: http://decode.org/

    “Ideas are dangerous, but the man to whom they are least dangerous is the man of ideas. He is acquainted with ideas, and moves among them like a lion-tamer.” – GK Chesterton

    https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/912538-ideas-are-dangerous-but-the-man-to-whom-they-are

  79. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    What Paulie and “V” have to clarify is this:

    Do you think LIBERTARIANS should be like ANTIFA and get busy getting their masks and sticks and shields and bicycle locks and baseball bats and magnite flashlights ready for the next street brawl – oh, I’m sorry, you just call it “self-defense” during a “nonviolent protest.”

    Your bothering to defend these jerks as “not as bad” as right wing violent individuals just makes it look like you are promoting their black bloc diversity of tactics smash your enemy in the streets bullshit tactics.

  80. dL

    As far as the Powers That Be that regulate the comments here at IPR I am less impressed with. Is the IPR orthodoxy trembling because some bald guy named Paddy Tarleton writes a song with video accompaniment?

    B/c it is from the impersonator who alternatively goes by Nate, Nathan Norman, Randy, etc

    Thane, if you really want to catch up on the latest in white supremacist drivel, here ya go, brah
    http://dstormer6em3i4km.onion/

  81. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Actually I was copying another reply of mine so that when I wrote: “oh, I’m sorry, you just call it “self-defense” during a “nonviolent protest.” I wasn’t talking about you two specifically

    But if you saw the VICE NEWS video including former libertrian CHRIST CANTWELL, the new alt-right martyr, he said exactly that on the video: I don’t aggress on anyone. I’m just for self-defense. And if I have to defend myself I’ll kill them.”

    Pretty much what black bloc assholes have been saying for last 17 years they’ve been around, except they only now are finding people who will take them on in the streets.

    I remember in an early meeting in 2000 when black blocers were pushing their nonsense this one supercilious Englishman got up and said they Americans have to adopt these goals because they were so effective. “Whenever they try to cut the dole, we have a riot.” And a bunch of welfare statists cheered. So that IS what a lot of it is about. “We want our free college tuition. We want our college debt paid off. We want our universal health care. We want our minimum annual income of $1200 a month – or whatever…”

  82. V for Vagina

    Carol, that’s already been made clear multiple times: no, of course not. Your neighborhood mafia boss is not as bad as Pol Pot, because he hasn’t ordered nearly as many killings. That doesn’t mean he is A-OK. It just means that scale matters. We are antifascists, as all libertarians should be, but we believe that fash should have freedom of speech and assembly so long as they actually remain peaceful, which was clearly not what they either intended to nor proceeded to do in Charlottesville. That also means that other people have the right of freedom of speech and assembly to oppose them, but not to initiate force against them. However, defensive force is fine. Is that really so hard to understand?

  83. V for Vagina

    “I don’t aggress on anyone. I’m just for self-defense. And if I have to defend myself I’ll kill them.””

    There are two problems here:

    1) Cantwell was lying. The fash do not actually limit themselves to only using defensive force.

    2) Even if he was telling the truth, there is still the question of proportionality. If someone throws the first punch against you, does that justify running them over with a car? Clearly not. “If I have to defend myself I’ll kill them” translates as “I really just want to kill them.” Those who really use defensive force don’t relish the prospect and they don’t retaliate in a massively disproportional way.

  84. Thane Eichenauer

    dL,Blessings be upon thee.
    Thank you for the link referral. However I cannot read any further Daily Stormer articles until I have completed one thousand four hundred and eighty eight days of required mourning that follow the betrayal of Andrew Anglin (PBUH) by the treacherous King of Algeria, King Abdullah Muhammed Jihad.

    https://dstormer6em3i4km.onion.link/daily-stormer-now-dawns-the-algerian-age/

    I have been told by unbelievers that the following link offers better performance (not that I would know, because you know, required mourning).

    https://dstormer6em3i4km.onion.casa/

  85. Thane Eichenauer

    dL> B/c it is from the impersonator who alternatively goes by Nate, Nathan Norman, Randy, etc

    Indeed many a comment by they, them, those known as Nate, Nathan Norman, Randy have been condemn-worthy and well vanish-worthy. By whatever miracle of fractal reincarnation however I found the vanished comment by JR referenced to be on-topic and as such not vanish-worthy.

  86. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Paulie and “V”:

    First, we’re talking street protests here, not blowing up buildings or whatever. (Besides couple examples of other violence given by others above.)

    Have you ever seen any of these guys in action, in person, in meetings, at rallies or doing actual street violence?

    I have. They are big on talking self-defense, but they deliberately do property destruction, curse at cops and opponents, etc. in order to PROVOKE a fight. Just like Cantwell. Cantwell’s a liar when he says “just self-defense” – but so are the Antifa/black blocs who say they only are interested in “self-defense.”

    The whole point of nonviolent protest is YOU are nonviolent and then cops or whoever look bad when they attack you and you do not fight back. If you go out there talking and acting like you will defend yourself with violence you only attract that violence. And that’s not a coincidence.

    Both Cantwell and antifa/black bloc also court publicity using violent talk and/or tactics. Both want the publicity. I remember in 2000 a professional publicist for various progressive organizations went over to the black bloc side and boasted how it finally it got him the mainstream publicity he had worked so hard for and never got before. I still have MSM video of him defending the “black bloc” as “our brothers” at a year 2000 rally. Of course eventually he grew up, got married, had kids, and now denounces street violence. But there are lots of young versions of him out their in both the right and left movements.

    Except for rhetoric and whatever ethnic/ideological cause they are supporting this week, there is little difference between the two groups. Desperate and sad individuals, mostly guys.

  87. dL

    Indeed many a comment by they, them, those known as Nate, Nathan Norman, Randy have been condemn-worthy and well vanish-worthy.

    Well, you know, Thane, if the person was to post that stuff under their regular identity instead of resorting to fake pseudonyms and phony emails using a VPN, I would let the comments stand w/o removal. Otherwise, it’s a violation of the comment policy.
    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/05/commenting-issues-on-ipr/

    By whatever miracle of fractal reincarnation however I found the vanished comment by JR referenced to be on-topic and as such not vanish-worthy.

    I deleted that comment not long after it was posted. I do find it a bit miraculous that the comment was able to be archived encrypted on a third party site. Unless, of course, the person who archived it was the one who wrote it.

  88. Thane Eichenauer

    dL> I deleted that comment not long after it was posted. I do find it a bit miraculous that the comment was able to be archived encrypted on a third party site.

    Such is the miracle that is subscribing to the IPR comment feed via, dum, dah, dum: http://InoReader.com

  89. dL

    Such is the miracle that is subscribing to the IPR comment feed via, dum, dah, dum:

    hallelujah…just wondering why the miracle wasn’t repeated when it came to the other “JT” comments in this thread that were deleted. You know, the ones that praised the American Guard Neo-nazi group, wished for violence in the streets against antifa and mockingly linked to an alt-right site accusing Pauli of being a terrorist.

    fractal reincarnation apparently works in mysterious ways…

  90. Thane Eichenauer

    Gene Berkman> The creator of “Pepe the Frog” has taken on the Alt-Right and is struggling to reclaim his creation

    Matt Furie’s efforts to reclaim Pepe are futile, he has been assimilated into the collective gestalt. Matt Furie claims to have killed off Pepe but clearly Pepe came back from the dead stronger than ever.

    http://pepethefrog.faith

  91. paulie

    God damn bother P , well said Sir !!! Excellent read.

    Thanks! Give me a shout on email or fb sometime. Or phone if you have one these days.

  92. paulie

    The Right defends the Status Quo Establishment

    No, they believe the status quo is a “zionist occupied government” which they must overthrow to create a white nation. I actually keep up with their propaganda, I’m not just guessing about their motives or tactics or general mindset, which is also why I can report with confidence that what some here are calling “lone wolf” attacks are discussed frequently and casually as admirable things in those circles and applauded when they happen. They may not be directly ordered by some dime store fuehrer but they may as well be. It’s a culture which fosters murder. They tend to be the kind of people who don’t have a lot to lose anyway. If they end up in prison they are among their own kind and treated as heroes for committing acts of racial terrorism and killings that somehow serve their common goal of starting a race war, and if they get killed in the process, they think they are going to heaven or Valhalla. The racist “bowel” movement takes those destructive impulses and psychotic tendencies and channels them into acts of violence on behalf of the cause, then rewards them with celebration.

  93. paulie

    A well written article by Paul Frankel.

    Thank you.

    As far as the Powers That Be that regulate the comments here at IPR I am less impressed with. Is the IPR orthodoxy trembling because some bald guy named Paddy Tarleton writes a song with video accompaniment?

    It’s not that we are trembling, we just really see no need pollute our comment sections with songs that celebrate murder and tell people to “come and get your faces smashed.” Long experience has shown us that this person or group of people like to start out making relatively innocuous comments and then if they aren’t shut down immediately begin their pattern of posting worse and worse stuff with greater frequency. We’ve made the considered decision that they are not welcome here at all, even if the individual comments are innocuous. Once we recognize the pattern they get deleted, period.

    Are not the many and varied commenters here able to evaluate the value (or lack) of a song? An author name, a song title and subtitle and an URL. I would just as well a comment be condemned than vanished.

    If you want to discuss IPR comment policies further, please do so on one of the threads that are set up expressly for that purpose. dL linked one of them a little later in this thread. Meta-comments about our policies regarding spam and trolls can be just as bad or worse than the trolling itself; none of these questions about moderation are new, they have all been beaten death many times in the past here, but if you feel you *must* talk about them again, please do so on a thread set up for that purpose, not on this one.

  94. paulie

    Your bothering to defend these jerks as “not as bad” as right wing violent individuals just makes it look like you are promoting their black bloc diversity of tactics smash your enemy in the streets bullshit tactics.

    How can that be when I have explicitly said many times that I don’t approve of that and that indeed there are times and places where they are just as bad? It’s possible to recognize one problem as greater in scale and still recognize them both as problems. In my example of the boat taking on water in the article, it’s not that mold is not a problem; it can be a very severe problem in the long run. But when your boat is taking on water at a rapid pace is not the time to spend a lot of time worrying about a long term mold problem. How do you go from me saying that to interpreting that I am saying that mold is not a problem at all ever?

  95. paulie

    Except for rhetoric and whatever ethnic/ideological cause they are supporting this week, there is little difference between the two groups.

    Murder would be one.

  96. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Paulie: well, i guess we’ve beat that dead street fighter enough by now… yuk yuk

  97. Tony From Long Island

    Paulie:

    Except for rhetoric and whatever ethnic/ideological cause they are supporting this week, there is little difference between the two groups.

    Murder would be one.

    Party affiliation would probably be another. I highly doubt any of the “antifa” people are democrats or voted for HRC. They are anarchists. . . . On the other hand, the alt-right neo-Nazi white supremacist scum gladly proclaim their allegiance to Trump and the GOP.

  98. paulie

    I highly doubt any of the “antifa” people are democrats or voted for HRC. They are anarchists. .

    Party affiliation varies. Some are Democrats because they see them as the lesser evil in the electoral space, some are non-voters, some are Greens or various kinds of socialists or communists, there are probably even some Republicans based on the mistaken idea that the greater evil is what we should vote for to, you know, hasten the revolution, man. Depending on how you define antifa – that is, whether you count only the violent commie types or all antifascists – some of the latter are in the LP as well.

    On the other hand, the alt-right neo-Nazi white supremacist scum gladly proclaim their allegiance to Trump and the GOP.

    Many of them do but not all. Unfortunately some are in the LP. Some are non-voters. Some are in the tiny far right parties. Some of them are actually Democrats, maybe for economic reasons or family legacy (yellow dogs). Some are the “hasten the revolution” types – a lot of them actually supported Obama’s election, believe it or not. They thought it would bring on a race war or something. There are also socialist and environmentalist strains of white nationalism which in a few cases translate into support for socialist and green parties, even though those parties are expressly antifascist.

  99. paulie

    http://knappster.blogspot.com/2017/09/knppsters-books-for-inmates-project.html

    Letters and books (but only if they are softcover and come directly from a commercial vendor) can be sent to Christopher Cantwell at:

    Christopher Cantwell Inmate #631424
    Albemarle Charlottesville Regional Jail
    160 Peregory Lane
    Charlottesville, VA 22902

    I just sent him this …

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0692580026

    Immigration: Individual vs National Borders
    by David Hathaway (Author)

    More at link.

  100. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    In 2000/2001 a couple LP members joined the black bloc in anti-globalization protests for the “fun” of watching people destroy stuff and fight with cops. Somewhere I have a filed a real or self-photoshopped (can’t remember which) of one of them up near a cop’s horse.

    So there’s no doubt there are some guys in there ON BOTH SIDES just to get their jollies, feel their manhood, etc.

  101. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Send Christ Cantwell books? Hmmm, how about Gandi’s FOR PACIFISTS (lots of quotes on anarchism) or The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love by bell hooks 2003 She should have some good dating tips for him.

  102. Kevin S Bjornson

    Once again, pandering to neo-Nazis is excused, if they are affiliated with the LP or movement. Ron Paul’s real pandering is excused, while Trump non-pandering is vilified.

    Cantwell is an alcoholic who is looking for an ideological justification for his love of violence (most of it initiatory or otherwise questionable). There is plenty of documentation and libertarians should avoid this guy like the plague:
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/crying-nazi-christopher-cantwells-lawyer-says-hes-just-kidding-about-killing-jews?fref=gc&dti=259892904054714

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/24/us/christopher-cantwell-arrested.html?mcubz=3&_r=0&fref=gc&dti=259892904054714

    I’m surprised that the Knappster would stoop this low as to fall for this guy’s schtick.

  103. Thomas L. Knapp

    “I’m surprised that the Knappster would stoop this low as to fall for this guy’s schtick.”

    What guy’s schtick? Cantwell’s? Are you kidding? I’ve been picking on Cantwell since before it was cool. OK, well, it’s always been cool. But I’ve been picking on him for years — like this. The post referenced above relates to me sending him a book that argues for open borders — because I like to pick on him.

    That said, at this point he is clearly a political prisoner. He’s being held without bail on charges that would have had low bail, maybe even release on recognizance for anyone who wasn’t loudly stating the political views he loudly states. I don’t really sympathize with him personally, but, well, “first they came for Christoper Cantwell …”

    I’m just now catching up with the thread, since IPR’s “subscribe” facilities often don’t work for me, and I notice that someone (it may have been you) referenced the monumentally stupid book The Third Terrorist, by Jayna Davis. I started what I meant to be a two- or three-part review of the book more than a decade ago, but never kept on after the first part. But the first part does completely crater any claim for the book being an accurate depiction of truth and fact. It’s here for those who are interested.

  104. V for Vagina

    “while Trump non-pandering is vilified.”

    What do you mean Trump’s non-pandering? Are we watching the same news? Not only did he say there were lots of good people on the nazi side in Charlottesville, he has retweeted multiple times from neo-nazi twitter accounts, appointed white supremacists like Gorka…it goes on and on.

  105. V for Vagina

    Mark Steyn:

    “So it took me a while to discover that what the media call “peace activists”, “anti-racists” and “anti-Nazis” are, in fact, men and women garbed in black from head to toe, including face masks. ”

    Steyn is being intentionally obtuse. Most of the people counter-demonstrating against the racists don’t fall into any such description.

  106. V for Vagina

    Steyn again,

    “Thus, as I pointed out on the radio last month, the violence on American streets derives from today’s paramilitary wing of the Democrat Party – antifa -”

    Say what? The anarcho-communists of the black bloc branch of antifa are actually Hillary-loving Democrats? Is Steyn high on bath salts or does he just love to make shit up? I’m tempted to conclude that the answer to that last one is “yes.”

  107. V for Vagina

    Sorry, I really tried to finish reading Steyn’s drivel, but it was too monumentally stupid for words.

  108. Kevin S Bjornson

    Those who have read Steyn’s article with comprehension, know he was talking about antifa, not everybody who was there to counter-protest. I’ve viewed several videos of antifa in action, and have seen none who are unmasked (except in mug shots).

    But since you bring up the topic of masking of identity, care to say why you adopt the nom de plume “V for Vagina”? I take it it, this is a homage to the movie which glorified the attempted terrorist bombing by Guy Fawkes, of the British Parliament, for religious reasons. In what would have been an eerie precursor of AQ bombings.

  109. V for Vagina

    One last thing about Steyn; apparently he thinks the nazis are telling the truth when they say all their violence is defensive. How else can we explain his bizarre claim that “the violence on American streets derives from … antifa”?

    Wow, what a nutcase!

  110. V for Vagina

    “Those who have read Steyn’s article with comprehension, know he was talking about antifa, not everybody who was there to counter-protest.”

    Those who stand up against fascism are antifa(scists). Black bloc is black bloc. You have the two confused.

    “I’ve viewed several videos of antifa in action, and have seen none who are unmasked (except in mug shots).”

    And how would you know who among the unmasked people would consider themselves to be antifa?

    “Those who have read Steyn’s article with comprehension, ”

    Would know that he is talking out of his ass.

    “But since you bring up the topic of masking of identity, care to say why you adopt the nom de plume “V for Vagina”? ”

    We all have to come from somewhere. Where you from, homes?

    “I take it it, this is a homage to the movie which glorified the attempted terrorist bombing by Guy Fawkes”

    My V is for Vagina, not for Vendetta.

  111. V for Vagina

    V–(may I call you that?)–apparently you missed this:
    http://dailycaller.com/2017/08/16/hillarys-campaign-spox-compares-d-day-soldiers-to-antifa/
    “The campaign spokesman for former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s 2016 campaign compared allied forces during War World II to Antifa protesters Tuesday night.”

    In that context, the reference would have made sense as a reference to all of those who stood up to the fascists, rather than in the sense that Steyn is using the term, to apply only to the black bloc. But even if it’s true that many Clintonistas admire black-clad anarchists who punch nazis, break windows and light cars and buildings on fire – which I somehow doubt – being the paramilitary wing of an organization would involve, at a minimum, belonging to and agreeing with said organization. My guess is that if you asked your typical black-clad molotov cocktail wielding Black Bloc member, support for Hillary Clinton and the Democratic Party would not be their position. Do you think it would?

  112. Kevin S Bjornson

    From the Knappster’s review of Jayna Davis’ book, The Third Terrorist:
    “For now, suffice it to say that The Third Terrorist is flawed as a work of fact from the very first page of the foreward, on which attorney David P. Schippers (of Clinton impeachment fame) mentions that he immediately suspected Middle Eastern involvement in the OKC bombing because its method conformed to that of the Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia — an attack which hadn’t occurred yet and which still lay a year in the future.”

    The book was published in 2004, well after the Khobar Tower bombing. Which is how he knew about that bombing, even though it occurred (as you say) a year after the OKC bombing. This is what he actually said:

    “Along with many other citizens, my suspicions initially focused on a possible Middle Eastern connection. The bombing and murder of innocents was a classic operation of Arab terrorists, and the method conformed to the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center in New York and the attack on the Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia.”

    Tom conveniently leaves out his reference to the 1993 bombing at the WTC, so we are left with his quibble that one year after cannot be consistent with “initially”. This selective presentation of evidence is misleading. Considering that his Forward was written years after the event, one year could be considered within the time frame indicated by Schipper’s choice of words.

    Tom’s other criticisms center around criticism of her analysis of the whereabouts of two Arabs. However, he neglects to specify the page numbers, or even chapters, and there is no way I am going to re-read the entire book to check on the alleged discrepancies. I couldn’t find any reference to an alleged Israeli passport in the book’s index; though this may come as a surprise to Tom, there are over a million Arab citizens of Israel.

    Tom then tries to excuse his new role in creating a support network for Cantwell, based on his previous criticisms of the man (before such criticisms became consensus). Cantwell has not improved his behavior since then, so this u-turn in sympathies seems more linked to reflexive opposition to the mainstream, not some newly-acquired martyr status on the part of Cantwell.

    Cantwell is charged with pepper-spraying people as they approached him, as he participated in a torch-lit parade chanting “Jews will not replace us”. I suppose this could be termed “political”, in the same sense that Hitler’s beer hall putsch and it’s suppression were political.

    I do not wish to imply, that all who protested the removal of the Robert E. Lee statute were neo-nazis. Though there is a positive correlation between respect for Gen. Lee, and neo-Confederate sympathies, and between neo-confederates and neo-nazis.

  113. V for Vagina

    “Cantwell is charged with pepper-spraying people as they approached him, as he participated in a torch-lit parade chanting “Jews will not replace us”. ….I do not wish to imply, that all who protested the removal of the Robert E. Lee statute were neo-nazis. ”

    And what do Jews have to do with the statue, unless you are a neo-nazi or at a minimum a believer in a jewish conspiracy that runs the world? Besides, who else would march right next to neo-nazis who are openly flying the swastika? Most people wouldn’t be caught dead doing that unless they were of the same mindset themselves.

  114. dL

    Sorry, I really tried to finish reading Steyn’s drivel, but it was too monumentally stupid for words.

    I wouldn’t even bother w/ the attempt…

  115. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    The reason he’s held on charges most would get off on, obviously is because of his symbolism as a very vocal and pro-violence white supremacist who got mucho publicity after Charlottesville.

    He even just got since this his very detailed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Cantwell article. Some lefties are posting a “libertarian” comedy act he did a few years back which actually wasn’t too bad – I’ve seem much worse at amateur hour – until he got racist towards the end.

    If Knapp’s rational books can bring him back into the light – and he stops drinking, talking trash and dissing women – that would be great. Alcoholics Anonymous has healed A LOT of souls!!

    That’s what I’d send him if I wanted to be on the govt’s list for associating with him. I noticed on CC’s website is being well taken care of by his buddy Joeseph Ross. I read somewhere Invictus allegedly is fundraising for him.

    Of course, now he’s going to have to join up with White Supremacists in jail to protect himself. (Which he probably did last time he was in jail too.)

    For you fans of astrology, he’s a scorpio with a capricorn moon, which can be pretty scary combination actually.

  116. Andy

    This is for all of the people who think that I’m “crazy” for saying that the Oklahoma City bombing was a false flag event. Here is local TV news footage from the day that the bombing happened where they talked about multiple explosions and multiple bombs being found inside the AP Murrah Federal Building.

    Explosives experts came forward who said that there was no way that a truck bomb caused that kind of damage to that building.

    News footage of multiple bombs in Oklahoma city bombing

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3u_Bgj30-E&t=132s

  117. dL

    Tom then tries to excuse his new role in creating a support network for Cantwell, based on his previous criticisms of the man (before such criticisms became consensus).

    No, I wouldn’t call Knapp’s post a support network for Cantwell. However, I might be inclined to say Ian Freeman from FTL is broaching that territory.

    Cantwell has not improved his behavior since then, so this u-turn in sympathies seems more linked to reflexive opposition to the mainstream, not some newly-acquired martyr status on the part of Cantwell.

    No, Knapp’s position is that Cantwell’s denial of bail is politically motivated. That is, ordinarily, someone charged w/ a similar crime would have been granted bail. Well, that generally would be true, except for the rather extraordinary aggravating circumstance of Cantwell’s appearance on HBO’s VICE that recorded his promises of future violence.

    RE: his bail denial. Apparently, the initial press clippings were not exactly accurate. This recent piece from the Richmond Times Dispatch gives the actual account

    http://www.richmond.com/news/virginia/cantwell-denied-bond-on-charges-related-to-charlottesville-rally-argues/article_e0ec65e8-a0ac-55ed-a176-6b6cd8760bdd.html

    Initially, Cantwell was given a 25K bail. However, the Albemarle County prosecutor appealed that decision. In a 4 hour hearing that followed, the prosecutor played the VICE segments where Cantwell bragged he trained himself up for street violence and in another segment where he said “Heyer’s killing was justified, …more people are going to die before we are done here.”

    Cantwell’s defense is that he is just “shock jock” who did racist podcasts for money. And his use of pepper spray was merely in self-defense. However, the judge punted the self-defense questions to the general trial and the claims of “shock jock” notwithstanding, used the VICE segments, along w/ the fact that Cantwell had no stable residence in VA, to deny bail on the grounds of “danger to the public/community” exception.

    I looked up the Virginia code. There is a danger to the public exception RE: bail. Now, I suppose one could possibly posit that the prosecutor was motivated politically to appeal the original decision. However, it was Cantwell’s own public statements on camera that sank him when cross-examined in front of the judge. Based on the Richmond Times Dispatch account, I didn’t see any evidence of political motivation in the judge’s decision.

    Now, one could opine in general about “danger to the public” exceptions to the 8th Amendment. A valid discussion topic. However, personally, Cantwell is not the guy I would pick to champion that cause. Bail denial is not that uncommon of an event.

    And I don’t look it at as “first they came for Chris Cantwell…”

    More like, “first they came for people who made credible threats of violence against entire classes of people…”

  118. paulie

    This is for all of the people who think that I’m “crazy” for saying that the Oklahoma City bombing was a false flag event.

    I don’t think it’s crazy to speculate that any one terrorist attack is a false flag. I think it *is* crazy to constantly say that *every single terrorist attack we ever talk about* is a false flag.

  119. Tony From Long Island

    Sorry if this is a duplicate. Moderators, please feel free to delete one of them.

    Andy:

    Here is local TV news footage from the day that the bombing happened where they talked about multiple explosions and multiple bombs being found inside the AP Murrah Federal Building.

    For all of your actual intelligence, you still continue to perpetuate this garbage. After any major disaster, there are always conflicting reports. This is not proof of some ridiculous “false-flag” crap. It’s evidence that it was a crazy situation with a lot of chaos.

    Ever play “the telephone game” as a child?

  120. paulie

    I’m pretty sure we were typing those responses right around the same time. Pretty bad sign that we have to resort to children’s games and children’s stories to explain these things…

  121. Luke

    For those who like to send books to imprisoned felons, Randall Lord is a more worthy recipient of your generosity than Christopher Cantwell.

    Mr. Lord is a former LP candidate from Louisiana who is currently imprisoned for trading in cryptocurrencies.

    Randall B Lord 18653-035
    USP ATLANTA
    U.S. PENITENTIARY
    P.O. BOX 150160
    ATLANTA, GA 30315

    Per facebook:
    Sarah Daggers: I know he like Scottish heritage things. He likes guns and historical stuff as well.

  122. paulie

    I can think of any number of jailed and imprisoned people who are more deserving of your help with reading material than Cantwell. I guess it can be said that he is in greater need, but there are lots of racists in jails and prisons too. Is he more reachable? Dunno. I think he took the path he did for a reason and is more likely to go further down that path than back. You never know.

  123. Thomas L. Knapp

    “Tom then tries to excuse his new role in creating a support network for Cantwell”

    No, I don’t try to excuse that, for the simple reason that I’m not doing that. And it’s not plausible for someone who is both 1) honest and 2) compos mentis to think that I’m doing that.

  124. Kevin S Bjornson

    Elsewhere (after my criticism) Tom has explained that his gifting of a book to Cantwell was meant to poke a jab at him, in a kind of joke. However he did not initially explain that in his his encouragement to send books. In fact, one poster even urged sending information on how to avoid prison rape, so I am not alone in coming to this interpretation. Normally, books are sent into prison to help the recipient pass the time reading and to provide emotional support.

    I accept Tom’s explanation, but still do not see the point in giving this guy material that might re-convert him to libertarianism, regardless of intention. What is the point in tormenting him, if meant as a jab? Surely there are more productive uses of scarce time and resources. At this point of multiple crises, libertarians shouldn’t indulge in such frivolities, even if emotionally satisfying to the tormentor.

    Accusing me of dishonesty and insanity is a form of personal attack that can be considered abusive, and that does work to defeat the purpose of constructive dialogue.

  125. Matt

    “Accusing me of dishonesty and insanity is a form of personal attack that can be considered abusive, and that does work to defeat the purpose of constructive dialogue.”

    It’s hard to draw any other conclusion when you seem to take the “suggestion” to send Cantwell books to be a sign of support for him.

    “However he did not initially explain that in his his encouragement to send books.”

    Because some things don’t require explanation, at least to the vast majority of people. There are those special cases however….

    ” In fact, one poster even urged sending information on how to avoid prison rape, so I am not alone in coming to this interpretation. ”

    Did anyone actually send him any books? And if you were going to jail and someone advised you to not drop the soap, would you take that as sincere concern for your well being, or as more of a jab?

    It’s a good thing Kevin Bjornson has such outstanding reading comprehension. Just ask him, he’ll tell you how good it is.

  126. Kevin S Bjornson

    The article that Paulie posts, is a mixture of truth and falsity, whether from stupidity or deception I don’t know.

    “Western culture” is not a “dog whistle” to those who try to attach themselves to it (like barnacles). Reason and liberty were promoted by western civilization, more than others. Even today, Europe and the Anglosphere tend to have more of those attributes, than the average of the rest of the world. To deny that, requires a lot of self-deception, and to say that, promotes false beliefs in others.

    Western culture (as traditionally defined) has Greco-Roman and humanistic origins. I am not of Greco-Roman origin, ethnically, but I have assimilated to western culture due to it’s universal values. There are other cultures which tend to oppose liberty and reason. Which means, they are a physical threat if they act on their opposition, and a cultural threat if they merely express false beliefs.

    The same LP activists that now pose self-righteously to condemn and ridicule Trump’s supposed dog-whistles (as if Antifa’s opposition to fascism makes them libertarians), were avid supporters of Ron Paul–who did a lot more than dog-whistle to weirdos or re-post (otherwise benign) tweets from dubious sources. The difference is, Ron Paul ran on the LP ticket and was a rabid anti-interventionist, while Trump ran on the GOP ticket and opposes some interventions while supporting others. So this is really about institutional loyalty. And virtue-signalling preening.

  127. Kevin S Bjornson

    I guess I don’t have the same sense of “humor” as the cool-kid in-crowd, I hadn’t imagined that adults would indulge in that kind of psychological tormenting. I guess I must be stupid, despite reading the equivalent of a book a day and scoring in the 99.9th percentile of college students in reading speed/comprehension.

    Tom said this (in “Libertarian Party USA unofficial), in answer to Marc’s question, what was Cantwell arrested for:
    “Thomas L. Knapp That’s kind of a loaded question. In reality, he was arrested for 1) simple assault and 2) his screwed up political beliefs. But the charges were magically enhanced to something like “use of a noxious chemical agent in” said common assault.”

    (K) Cantwell was not charged for his political beliefs, but for acting on them.

    “Simple assault” would be something like, lightly punching someone in a bar. Spraying strong mace point-blank into someone’s face is “use of a noxious chemical agent” and that is not a “magically enhanced” charge.

    Tom’s comments, though bracketed by political criticism of Cantwell, seem to trivialize or politicize the charges. That goes beyond psychologically tormenting someone in a weak position (itself a weird thing to do, such a psychological proclivity could lead to more serious weirdness, if not checked).

  128. steve m

    Anyone who advocates or engages in initiating violence for political purposes needs to be denied position within the Libertarian Party. I won’t say purge but they should be apposed at all levels of the party from precinct to national. They should not be allowed to be delegates for any convention.

    The Libertarian party should also refuse donations and in kind contributions from such individuals. The party should refund all past donations from them as well. And do so publicly.

    If they claim to speak for the libertarians there should be a strong public rebuttal from all levels of the Party.

    In general I agree with the premises of this article in that it is the neo-conservatives who are more a danger to the public perception of the libertarian movement then the violent leftists if only because the neo-conservatives are most often perceived to be closer to the libertarians.

    We need to do what we can to change that public perception.

  129. Kevin S Bjornson

    “Anyone who advocates or engages in initiating violence for political purposes needs to be denied position within the Libertarian Party.”

    I agree, which is why I opposed Johnson/Weld 2016, and oppose Weld for 2020 (he has floated a trial balloon to that effect). Johnson proposes a 23% national sales tax, and also would initiate force to compel bakers to do transactions they don’t want to do.

    “In general I agree with the premises of this article in that it is the neo-conservatives who are more a danger to the public perception of the libertarian movement then the violent leftists if only because the neo-conservatives are most often perceived to be closer to the libertarians.”

    This appears to equate all those who oppose the tearing down of statutes, with neo-Confederates and neo-Nazis, and also equates neo-Nazis with neo-Conservatives. Implicitly this also equates all who are not categorical anti-interventionists, with neo-conservatives.

    Again I make the point, many more murders are committed by private persons, than police. Yet police commit far more aggression in total, than private persons.

  130. steve m

    I stated

    “In general I agree with the premises of this article in that it is the neo-conservatives who are more a danger to the public perception of the libertarian movement then the violent leftists if only because the neo-conservatives are most often perceived to be closer to the libertarians.”

    to which Kevin S Bjornson replied

    This appears to equate all those who oppose the tearing down of statutes, with neo-Confederates and neo-Nazis, and also equates neo-Nazis with neo-Conservatives. Implicitly this also equates all who are not categorical anti-interventionists, with neo-conservatives.

    To which I reply..

    No it doesn’t and if you don’t understand what I was saying I don’t think further explanations will help.

  131. V for Vagina

    ““Western culture” is not a “dog whistle” to those who try to attach themselves to it ”

    It depends on the context. As those on the alt right use it, it is absolutely a euphemism for “white race,” just as they sometimes say “zionism” or “globalists” when they actually means Jews. It doesn’t matter that western civilization, zionism and globalism have separate meanings of their own.

    “The same LP activists that now pose self-righteously to condemn and ridicule Trump’s supposed dog-whistles”

    Nothing “supposed” about them. You had the president claim on national tv that lots of good people were marching alongside hooded klansman and people waving swastika banners chanting “blood and soil” and “Jews will not replace us.” He has retweeted repeatedly from white supremacist and neonazi twitter accounts. He has appointed white supremacists to white house positions. If anything, it rises above a dog whistle.

    “re-post (otherwise benign) tweets from dubious sources. ”

    They were not otherwise benign nor was there anything dubious about them.

    “I guess I must be stupid, despite reading the equivalent of a book a day and scoring in the 99.9th percentile of college students in reading speed/comprehension.”

    There are different kinds of intelligence. No doubt you can read technical manuals backwards and forwards in six languages in seconds flat and understand everything immediately. That doesn’t keep you from having massive blind spots in other areas.

    “(K) Cantwell was not charged for his political beliefs, but for acting on them.

    “Simple assault” would be something like, lightly punching someone in a bar. Spraying strong mace point-blank into someone’s face is “use of a noxious chemical agent” and that is not a “magically enhanced” charge.”

    For once I will agree with Kevin and disagree with Tom. For this purpose I am taking it on faith that Kevin is describing what Tom said accurately.

    “That goes beyond psychologically tormenting someone in a weak position (itself a weird thing to do, such a psychological proclivity could lead to more serious weirdness, if not checked).”

    Well yeah, if not checked. But again, I’m not expecting that any books ever made their way to Cantwell, and if they did, is it really torment? He doesn’t have to read them if he doesn’t want to. Seems pretty innocuous to me. He may read them out of boredom. It seems unlikely at this stage that a light would go on for him but nothing is impossible.

  132. V for Vagina

    “In general I agree with the premises of this article in that it is the neo-conservatives who are more a danger to the public perception of the libertarian movement then the violent leftists if only because the neo-conservatives are most often perceived to be closer to the libertarians.

    We need to do what we can to change that public perception.”

    Exactly.

  133. V for Vagina

    I’ll amend that to say I agree if what was meant was neo-confederates. I’m not sure how neo-conservatives are relevant here. I don’t think they were discussed in the original article above at all. As far as foreign policy, the racist right is generally opposed to the foreign policy priorities of the neocons. They tend to be pro-Russia and anti-Israel, exactly the opposite of the neocons. They are certainly not pacifists – like Trump, they bristle with hostility towards China, Korea, Latin America and Africa. As far as Muslims and Middle Easterners go, most of them don’t want them in what they call “white countries” but support them in their wars and hostilities against Israel and otherwise have no interest in intervening in their affairs for the most part.

  134. Kevin S Bjornson

    V’s last post I generally agree with, and much of the first post.

    Whether or not Cantwell will actually read the books sent him is a separate question. If he reads them, he will be seen reading them, and other prisoners might assume he is libertarian, which would create a bad impression. If he agrees with them, his re-conversion can only create another bad impression. If he disagrees with them viscerally, that would be psychological torment, which was Tom’s stated objective.

    Tormenting any person in a weak position is troubling from a psychological viewpoint. Analogously, Jeffrey Dohmer started out tormenting weak creatures like cats or other small animals. He derived psychological pleasure from inflicting pain on living beings who are weak. Though of course there is a big difference between psychological vs. physical pain.

    Cantwell has violent tendencies and is looking for ideological justification to act them out. Tom appears to enjoy inflicting psychological torment on Cantwell, again using ideological cover.

  135. Kevin S Bjornson

    Probably most of the people who protested the removal of the Gen Lee statute, were not KKK or neo-Nazi. Similarly, probably most who were there to protest those fascists, were not Antifa.

    Concerning the relative threat, comparing Antifa to neo-Nazis, probably Antifa is the greater threat, even if they haven’t yet killed anyone they have assaulted and sooner or later someone will die. Antifa is better funded and organized, with many more members.

    Plus, “Antifa” is just the tip of the iceberg, there are numerous non-white ethnic gangs who have murdered, while the old-style Italian mafia (composed of whites) is almost extinct.

    Similarly, police are a greater threat than private murderers, because police are more numerous, better funded and organized, and commit more aggression total than private murderers. Even though police have murdered few, they have murdered far fewer than private murderers.

  136. V for Vagina

    “If he disagrees with them viscerally, that would be psychological torment, which was Tom’s stated objective.”

    I wouldn’t get too bent out of shape about. I doubt anyone will actually send him anything. If they do he is not under any obligation to read it. If he starts reading it he’s not obliged to finish. Personally, I like to read a lot of stuff in long as well as short form from all sorts of different perspectives. Reading Mein Kampf didn’t make me a nazi, reading Das Kapital didn’t make me a communist (but did bore me…I struggled to finish that one). Reading The Art of The Deal didn’t make me a Trump voter. Nor did reading It Takes A Village convince me to vote for Hillary Clinton.

    People’s tastes for reading things they disagree with vary. Some people only like to read things they agree with. I see no reason to force them to do otherwise, not do I see anyone here proposing that.

  137. V for Vagina

    “Probably most of the people who protested the removal of the Gen Lee statute, were not KKK or neo-Nazi.”

    There’s where you go wrong. The Unite the Right march was not only about the statues. If it were, they would not have walked down the street chanting slogans about Blood and Soil and Jews. People who don’t sympathize with the KKK and Nazis don’t march together with them in this country. It just doesn’t happen.

    “Similarly, probably most who were there to protest those fascists, were not Antifa.”

    It depends on what definition of Antifa you are using. By one definition of the term every single one of them was antifa by definition by virtue of their being there alone if nothing else.

    “Antifa is better funded and organized, with many more members.”

    If you are using Antifa to mean Black Bloc, I have seen no evidence of this. If you are using a broader definition of antifa, you’d have to back up the claim that they are all violent and pose a threat. It seems to me that you are conflating two different things – there are more people who are organized in some sort of antifascist movement or group, but only a small number who commit violent actions. To the extent that those who commit violent actions are part of some kind of organized groups for that purpose, I don’t see the evidence that they are larger in number, better organized or pose a greater than fascists.

    “there are numerous non-white ethnic gangs who have murdered, while the old-style Italian mafia (composed of whites) is almost extinct.”

    There are numerous ethnic gangs of all kinds, including whites who are not Italian. But this has nothing to do with ideologically based violent gangs. Non-ideological gangs mostly kill other gang members of their own ethnicity or race. If they kill gang members of another race it is no different to them, it is not because of race or ideology but rather fighting over territory, revenge and profits.

  138. Anthony Dlugos

    “Concerning the relative threat, comparing Antifa to neo-Nazis, probably Antifa is the greater threat..Antifa is better funded and organized, with many more members.”

    Nope. This is a center-right country with a dormant fetish for nationalism far more powerful than any international socialist ideal. Whatever their current strength, there is no broad appeal for their political positions.

    If the sh*t ever hits the fan and the people start picking sides en masse, antifa is gonna realize quite quickly they are on enemy turf. They’ll be outgunned, outfinanced, and crushed with alacrity.

  139. Kevin S Bjornson

    Neo-Nazis are not “center right”, and are extremely unpopular. If by “right” you mean, for lower taxes, less regulation, and more economic freedom, supportive of Israel, along with a general belief in the constitution, that does not fit the nazis.

    While the left is well-entrenched in mass media, academia, and bureaucracies.

    Whichever political force controls the US military, National Guard, police, and FBI, will out-gun any other possible group.

  140. Anthony Dlugos

    “And you think that would be antifa?”

    Precisely.

    The question on the table is: who is the greater threat? I don’t care about the small potatoes skirmishes going on now. Wait until law&order is threatened. Factor in who the people en masse will swing behind.

    Antifa won’t know what hit them. The mass media that doesn’t get behind the fascist state will simply be shut off.

  141. Kevin S Bjornson

    Antifa is more like a government. Compared to Nazis, they are better funded and organized, and have more support on the street. I’ve heard that Soros supports them. He wants to gain control of the US gov’t, like he gained control of the gov’t of Ukraine (but Russia does not have an arrest warrant out for him).

    The US gov’t is not a fascist state, except in a water-downed sense. Sure, big corporations and military-industrial complex is favored, but that’s true of most governments today.

  142. Kevin S Bjornson

    Tom sent Cantwell a book and urged others to follow suit. Whether or not they do, is a separate issue of Tom’s motivation, which is to torment to the guy. I’m addressing that issue, because Tom called me insane for not understanding his motivation (which I think is a weird motivation, which is why I didn’t understand until Tom explained, because generally Tom seems sound, even with flashes of brilliance, albeit corrupted by social metaphysics).

    If you were to read Mein Kampf in prison (that’s assuming prison officials would let you), I guarantee you the other prisoners would know and most would look askance at your reading interests.

    Sure, non-white street gangs fight others of their own ethnicity, as did the old Italian mafia. That doesn’t mean they don’t have a political agenda. WW2 Nazis would often have internal fights, Hitler designed it that way so that no one group could challenge his leadership.

    Street gangs are often ethnic and identify with their own ethnicity, more so than others. Italians preferred to deal with fellow-Italians, even sub-dividing into Sicilians etc.

    They organize force, often collect money with force, enforce a moral code, and have their own internal court system. These are all characteristics of gov’t. Often they seek control of the official gov’t, through silver or lead.

  143. V for Vagina

    “Antifa is more like a government. Compared to Nazis, they are better funded and organized, and have more support on the street.”

    And again that all depends on what you mean by antifa. If you mean Black Bloc violent antifa I would like to see support for any of those statements about them. If you mean larger numbers of non violent antifascists yes, they probably have more support and maybe better funding – how do we measure that though? But they are not the people we need to worry about.

    “I’ve heard that Soros supports them”

    Please be more precise. What exactly does he support and with how much money?

    Your more reasonable criteria was “whichever political force controls the US military, National Guard, police, and FBI, …” If you think that is likely to be violent black bloc anarcho-marxist antifascists any time in this century, please introduce me to your drug dealer.

  144. Kevin S Bjornson

    I don’t think Soros will succeed in installing his preferred president. He doesn’t even control the Ukraine gov’t, though he, along with the IRI, funded both Ukraine revolutions. I used to work with getting IRI funding for some liberty camps I organized in the former Soviet Union, but only sporadically as that violated official IRI policy. I even worked a short while for the Soros-funded language institute in Vilnius.

    He started his career by helping to loot Jews in Nazi Germany. He wants to gain wealth (in large part) by exploiting chaos and destruction.

    Concerning Soros funding of Antifa:
    http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/267581/doj-secretly-investigating-soros-funded-antifa-daniel-greenfield

  145. Andy

    Which book did Tom send Cantwell, and what was Tom’s reason for sending?

    Regardless of what one thinks of Cantwell’s recent antics, he is being held in jail for bogus reasons.

  146. Andy

    What Kevin said about the Italian Mafia reminds me of the movie, “Goodfellas,” which I think was based on a true story, where two of the lead characters, one played by Robert Dinero, and the other played by Ray Liotta, were not allowed to become “made men” in the Italian Mafia because both of their characters were only half Italian, as both were also half Irish.

    The Italian Mafia obviously did not care about “political correctness” or diversity or Affirmative Action.

  147. Andy

    Adam Kokesh tried to distribute his book, Freedom, to prisons, and it was officially banned, by the US Justice Department I believe. I am not sure if it was banned in jails though.

  148. V for Vagina

    “Concerning Soros funding of Antifa:
    http://www.frontpagemag.com

    That uses a very broad definition of antifa which is very much at odds with your definition of antifa as only black bloc style violent anarchists. It also does not say how much Soros allegedly gave these groups.

    “Which book did Tom send Cantwell, and what was Tom’s reason for sending?”

    Scroll up, it’s in the comments above, as well as at the kn@ppster blog,

    “Regardless of what one thinks of Cantwell’s recent antics, he is being held in jail for bogus reasons.”

    What’s bogus about it? He threatened violence, talked about gassing people specifically as a tactic months ago, went on to spray or gas people, threatened to keep doing it. I’d say that’s a good reason to lock him up.

    “The Italian Mafia obviously did not care about “political correctness” or diversity or Affirmative Action.”

    Which still does not make them an ideological organization like black bloc, fascists, jihadis, etc.

    ” I am not sure if it was banned in jails though.”

    County jails are run by their counties. They all set their policies individually.

  149. Kevin S Bjornson

    A book on immigration, favoring open borders. He said he did it to torment Cantwell.

    I haven’t made a study of the evidence for the charges, but my understanding is that Cantwell saw a guy approaching him and felt he had to act pre-emptively, in self-defense; and that spraying was less violent than knocking the guy’s teeth out.

    Apparently he is not trained in Tai Chi or Judo, he seems to prefer causing damage to the other, than preventing the problem he alleges.

    He has been filmed showing off his stockpile of weapons, and bragging that blood will flow. That was before he did his self-pity video, wherein he cried.

  150. dL

    I guess I must be stupid, despite reading the equivalent of a book a day and scoring in the 99.9th percentile of college students in reading speed/comprehension.

    lol..not that shit again…

  151. dL

    No doubt you can read technical manuals backwards and forwards in six languages in seconds flat and understand everything immediately. That doesn’t keep you from having massive blind spots in other areas.

    oh, i would doubt it…

  152. dL

    Antifa is more like a government.

    antifa is a direct action counter organization to organized fascism. Neither its mean nor its objectives are explicitly political in nature. Whenever there has been an organized fascism, be it the state or underground, there has been an antifa.

    In the earlier part of the 20the century, the organized fascism was the state. So, yes, antifa at that time was an overtly militant organization…obviously. In the post WW II world, the organization of fascism went largely underground. So too did antifa. I doubt most people in the United States had even heard the term until the election of Trump. Once you had a POTUS that explicitly connected the Heimatschutz security state w/ white supremacism, antifa became more overt. Antifa more or less is a direct action reactive force to a fascist menace.

  153. steve m

    V wondered…

    “I’ll amend that to say I agree if what was meant was neo-confederates. I’m not sure how neo-conservatives are relevant here. I don’t think they were discussed in the original article above at all. As far as foreign policy, the racist right is generally opposed to the foreign policy priorities of the neocons. They tend to be pro-Russia and anti-Israel, exactly the opposite of the neocons. They are certainly not pacifists – like Trump, they bristle with hostility towards China, Korea, Latin America and Africa. As far as Muslims and Middle Easterners go, most of them don’t want them in what they call “white countries” but support them in their wars and hostilities against Israel and otherwise have no interest in intervening in their affairs for the most part.”

    I would respond…

    I include among the neo-conservatives those that believe that the rights of individuals should be restricted and that the use of force is justified in cases of abortion, racial non-equality, sexual orientation non-equality, immigration and even free speech in public settings.

    I grant you that there are leftists that also are against free speech in public settings in all setting. I don’t condone them as well.

    Most of all I entirely condemn the use of governmental and private force against the free expression of ideas. If you don’t like what someone else has to say, it does not give you the right to hit them, short of them threatening to hit you first. Yell sure, get mad, yes but restrain yourself from violence.

    If you feel the use of force is justified in the absence of them literally threatening to attack you then you are at risk of violating the non aggression principle. And not just in an esoteric way. As such you do not belong among those who represent the Libertarian Party and do not belong among those whom meet to select national or maybe even state wide candidates.

    If you consider yourself a right winger and you feel the state should restrict the freedom of others for what ever reason… while I would like you to vote libertarian… I do not want you to carry the libertarian banner. Not till you move past the need to restrict the liberties of others.

    I would likewise lecture the left wingers… but not many of them are around to lecture… here… in other forums I do.

  154. V for Vagina

    “I include among the neo-conservatives those that believe that the rights of individuals should be restricted and that the use of force is justified in cases of abortion, racial non-equality, sexual orientation non-equality, immigration and even free speech in public settings.”

    You probably mean theocons and/or the old right and/or alt right. Neocons were initially Trotskyites who moved into the Democratic Party but were not happy with the liberal attitudes towards sex, drugs, gender roles and so on starting in the 1960s and 70s. They were also concerned about urban crime. Most of all, they were cold warriors based initially on traditional Trotskyite hostility to the USSR. Thus they became Republicans. What was “neo” about their conservatism was that they were not particularly against the welfare state, although they were no longer pushing outright socialist policies. Their main concern was foreign policy – primarily strong opposition to the USSR and to jihadism and strong support for Israel.

    Starting around the Shrub administration “neocons” also became an epithet for all war hawks and specifically in contrast to “paleocons” who were more focused on pulling back from foreign commitments, limiting trade and immigration, re-establishing Christianity as a quasi-official religion, instituting socially conservative policies through the force of the state, and – at least in some cases – reestablishing segregation and white supremacy.

    I agree with the remainder of your comment.

  155. Thomas L. Knapp

    “Which book did Tom send Cantwell, and what was Tom’s reason for sending?”

    Immigration: Individual vs National Borders by David Hathaway. It pits the libertarian position on immigration (open borders) against the anti-libertarian immigration authoritarianism of e.g. Hoppe.

  156. Krzysztof Lesiak

    I haven’t read this whole thread yet, though I will. I’m at the libertarian history comments right now by Kevin Bjornson. I want to say here that Brian Doherty’s Radicals for Capitalism is a 700 something fascinating book -impossible to put it down. I definitively would enjoy reading it again. That guy is quite a talented writer.

    As far as white nationalism and the far right is concerned, four of my five favorite English language rappers (Tupac, Akala, Lowkey and Immortal Technique) are non-white (the other rappers are Eminem and Vinnie Paz. And the only girlfriend I’ve ever had was a Guatemalan chick (for a whopping three days in 7th grade). I’ve spent a lot of time and also given monetary handouts to people who aren’t descendants of the European continent. Also, I’m back at my Polish Kingdom Hall meetings, and I will get baptized as a Jehovah Witness no later than November 2018. JW’s do not get involved in politics or vote, and they are very tolerant people who I think are the most libertarian religion out there. In fact, I am aware of at least one Jehovah Witness Polish woman/black man marriage, and I see no issue at with this at all.

    In fact, I’ve NEVER IN MY ENTIRE LIFE BEEN ANYTHING CLOSE TO A RACIST. Neither have my parents. Anti-Semite? Sure. But I’ll have to work on toning that down too. And I’ve been a big Michael Savage fan for years.

    I want to also say that Trump is basically more or less A SECRET JEHOVAH WITNESS, at least that is my theory and I’m sticking by it until and Elder disproves it.

    PEACE OUT GUYS.

  157. Tony From Long Island

    Krzysztof, that was one of the strangest posts I have ever read, but not in a bad way 🙂

  158. V for Vagina

    I don’t know Mr. Lesiak, but just based on this post he seems very defensive and unsettled in some way. It’s like he has something to prove. Does he?

  159. Krzysztof Lesiak

    My point in writing that comment was to state that I am a (soon to be baptized) Jehovah Witness, and since JWs reject political involvement and any form of racialism, I am rejecting white nationalism, including Polish nationalism – which is beholden to Catholicsm, a money hungry, New World Order Masonic cult.

    I support the libertarian movement in Poland led by Janusz Korwin Mikke. Here’s a quote about him from someone who I’m pretty sure was an influential libertarian back in the day…not Austrian school, but still:

    Janusz Korwin-Mikke, with whom I corresponded, had been active before liberation as an underground publisher, bringing out a translation of Capitalism and Freedom and Hayek’s Road to Serfdom, as well as other libertarian literature. Subsequently, he ran for president on a strict libertarian platform. At the time we were in Warsaw, his Union of Real Policy was housed in a former dwelling that was a literal maze of small offices, all occupied by young people actively working on spreading the libertarian gospel. We had very good, lively discussions with them.

    —?Milton Friedman, Two lucky people: Memoirs – Milton Friedman, Rose. D. Friedman

    Peace and blessings to all.

  160. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Tom Knapp wrote: Immigration: Individual vs National Borders by David Hathaway. It pits the libertarian position on immigration (open borders) against the anti-libertarian immigration authoritarianism of e.g. Hoppe.

    Obviously the bigoted glee with which the Hoppeans boast about WHO they will keep out of their private communities is obnoxious.

    But lots of libertarians say that in a world with many private membership communities people have the right to determine membership rules. (I personally include communities of consensus where say 95% of all members can make various rules, with safeguards too numerous to mention.) And that if most communities, networks of communities, were private immigration rights would be very different, some very liberal, others more restrictive.

    A quick search only showed his book and his generally libertarian writings on the topic without mention of Hoppe. Is Hathaway arguing against private communities, just bigotry or what…

    Did find this Anthony Gregory article on the topic: https://mises.org/library/immigration-reply-hoppe

  161. Kevin S Bjornson

    A good Reason article about Antifa in Europe, starting out with a recent attack on two Libertarian activists:

    http://reason.com/archives/2017/09/08/antifa-has-backed-its-message-with-viole
    “Due to its political sophistication, the Swedish security police reckon that the autonomous leftist groups, of which Antifa is the most important one, constitute a more serious threat to the functioning of the country’s democracy than do the two other forces being watched, namely radical Islamists and neo-Nazis.”

    Libertarians who are sanguine about the Antifa threat, remind me of Jews who weren’t worried about Hitler (in the early days).

  162. V for Vagina

    Seems like a very false equivalence to me. You had to go all the way to Europe for that one, no one was killed, and antifa have been around for nearly a century. Meanwhile you use other sources which count peaceful antifascist groups as also being antifa, for the purpose of claiming they are much larger in numbers and funding than the violent few are. The alarmism is not borne out by evidence.

    I don’t know about Sweden, but in the US radical islamists and neo-nazis are killing people. Antifa is not. Far left terrorist groups in the US have been dormant since the 1980s, unless you count black nationalist groups who are not really far left, and even then they kill a lot less people than nazis and jihadists do.

    If there is a Hitler-like threat in the US today it comes from the admirers of the original Hitler, not from a tiny few black-clad assholes who punch nazis, smash windows and burn cars.

  163. Anthony Dlugos

    Just for clarification: the question on the table is: who is the greater threat, antifa or the fascist/white nationalists. To me, that’s a question of POTENTIAL, not “who would win in a fight today” likes it’s The Jets and The Sharks of West Side Story.. I’m not concerned about small potatoes window breaking by a bunch of dopey kids.

    The question that hit closer to the mark was yesterday’s musing: who would the military, FBI, and other police forces get behind? Which, to me, becomes a question of which philosophy the people en masse get behind. Its a question of which of these two sides will light the fires of fear and then hate in the people. Not who is more powerful now.

    That’s where I must agree with Chomsky’s wisdom: antifa will not know what hit them when they finally strike a nerve in the American public. The pissant alt-right as it exists now will be swept aside by people who really know how to deploy violence.

  164. Kevin S Bjornson

    Hitler succeeded to power only because other trends outweighed traditional European individualism. Germans today are not tribalistic, they are prosperous. The aftermath of WW1 era caused great economic distress, Germans were looking for someone to blame and someone else to solve their problems.

    The only way that neo-Nazis could come to power in the US, is if there were a severe economic depression and whites were hunted down for persecution (more than just affirmative action).

    Most likely, capitalism would be blamed for the depression, and Trump would be Hoover-ized. This paves the way for neo-communists to come to power, like how FDR came to power.

  165. Kevin S Bjornson

    Hitler succeeded to power only because other trends outweighed traditional European individualism. Germans today are not tribalistic, they are prosperous. The aftermath of WW1 era caused great economic distress, Germans were looking for someone to blame and someone else to solve their problems.

    The only way that neo-Nazis could come to power in the US, is if there were a severe economic depression and whites were hunted down for persecution (more than just affirmative action).

    Most likely, capitalism would be blamed for the depression, and Trump would be Hoover-ized. This paves the way for neo-communists to come to power, like how FDR came to power.

    If body counts are to be the only metric, then yes Antifa and the far left generally, would be a lesser threat. But since they are better organized, and funded by those who know better, they refrain from that extreme (so far). And that’s only if you don’t count the many non-white street gangs that do commit murder, almost routinely, and are not thought of as political (even though, by definition, they are political).

    But still there are other threats that do not necessarily result in death. So far, neo-Nazis have not shut down public talks or demonstrations by libertarians or conservatives; while the far left (including Antifa) have done that, on many occasions.

  166. dL

    A good Reason article about Antifa in Europe, starting out with a recent attack on two Libertarian activists…

    I’m unable to find any online independent verification of that purported attack. The author did not link to any corroborating news account. Searching 3 different search engines for news of this recent antifa attack on Fredrik Nyqvist in Sweden turned up nothing(sans the reason.com article). A search of liberalapartiet.se turned up nada as well. News claims that cannot be independently corroborated are filed under “Fake News” in my book.

    So, we begin with an apparent fake news account and then we encounter this howler in the body of article’s argument:

    Not trusting the government to protect them from authoritarian right-wing rule, they rely on pre-emptive “self-defense.”

    LOL…that “crime” would implicate most of the libertarian movement. Of course, I understand that line of thinking now perhaps better comports of w/ Nick Gillespie’s revisionist “libertarian moment”(we didn’t have the original libertarian moment b/c we didn’t trust the government enough). And it may well be true that if Reason magazine is at the front-line of organized self-defense, you probably would be better off throwing yourself at the mercy of trusting the government. After all, this is the same outfit that immediately capitulated to the government request to turn over all its collected commenter data after the Katherine Forrest “woodchipper” comments. And we only found out about that because an investigation target leaked it to “popehat.”

  167. Kevin S Bjornson

    I sent an e-mail to the author in Sweden, asking for documentation on the alleged attack. On second reading, his wording did seem a little like “it was a dark and stormy night”. We’ll see what he says.

    Amazing that ADL does a study of terrorist attacks in the US, starting with 2007, or six years after 9/11 (the body body on that day dwarfs any other terrorist attack). That’s kind of like compiling statistics on Jihadist piracy US merchant ships, after Jefferson created the deep water US Navy.

    Also, many Jihadist attacks are not officially classified as Islamic motivated; I get ADL messages in my inbox, invariably they are dovish and minimize the Jihadist threat. The lists I have seen, show a big majority of terrorist attacks to be Islamic motivated. Here is the Wikipedia on terrorism in the US:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States

    There was mostly left violence in the 60s and 70s. Since about 9/11, most attacks were Jihadist. I just don’t see great numbers by neo-Nazis, but in any event, Nazis traditionally have been allies of Jihadists. BTW, when I participated in a pagan festival in the Lithuanian countryside, neo-nazis were there, and chanted during a concert.

    “Antifa”, “neo-nazi”, “black bloc”, “white nationalist”, these are just labels. If we look at statistics of which ethnic group commits more violent crimes, what is immediately apparent is that whites (and others, such as Japanese and Jewish) commit far less violent crimes than average.

    These labels are used as a screening mechanism, to heighten fear of white violence by denying the political nature of street gangs (of whatever ethnicity). “Politics” should not be considered as just those who are active in political parties or explicitly adhere to well-developed ideologies.

    “Government” is the organization of force to control behavior according to a moral code. Over time, such organization becomes a system with a formal label. Since government is political, and street gangs govern, they are political.

  168. V for Vagina

    “Most likely, capitalism would be blamed for the depression, and Trump would be Hoover-ized. ”

    Faced with a depression or any other kind of crisis that hurts his popularity, he’ll most likely gin up a war to give the economy an artificial short term boost and his popularity a patriotic shot in the arm.

    “But since they are better organized, and funded by those who know better, ”

    Repeat assertions, still without evidence. All you have so far is that Soros gave some unspecified amount of money to organizations that are not the black bloc and do not espouse violence, but which did put on protests where the black bloc was a small participating group (not the main organizers to whom Soros donated). So your claim that they are better organized and funded is still without evidence.

    ” And that’s only if you don’t count the many non-white street gangs that do commit murder, almost routinely, and are not thought of as political (even though, by definition, they are political).”

    They are non-ideological, but if you keep insisting, we can go ahead and count them as white supremacists as well, since they mostly kill other non-whites.

    “So far, neo-Nazis have not shut down public talks or demonstrations by libertarians or conservatives;”

    Actually they have. To take one example, in Pennsylvania earlier this year the fascists set up a fake antifa front group and phoned in threats that got a libertarian festival canceled from two locations, disrupted the festival plans, and caused many of the planned speakers and attendees to not show up. The fascists got what they wanted out of it – sympathy and publicity – and their main speaker, Augustus Invictus, went on to do his own speech in the same city where the original event was to be held, accompanied by sieg heiling followers. Meanwhile the libertarian event was held but with a lot fewer speakers as well as a lot fewer people in the audience. All the antifa groups in the area attest that this “antifa” group was a fake front fascist group.

    “Germans today are not tribalistic, they are prosperous.”

    Don’t tell Jeff Desist. He’ll tell them to get back to their blood and soil roots.

  169. V for Vagina

    “Amazing that ADL does a study of terrorist attacks in the US, starting with 2007, or six years after 9/11”

    There are several studies cited much earlier in their thread. They cover different years. At least one of them excludes OKC as well as 9/11 because they were such larger events that they would render the statistics for all the others somewhat moot. But we can go ahead an acknowledge that Jihadis kill a lot of people, since Jihadis are not by any remote stretch of the imagination on the left, being some of the most religiously conservative people on the planet (as well as in many cases nationalists, and in most cases Jew-haters).

    “There was mostly left violence in the 60s and 70s.“

    Yes, that was repeatedly acknowledged by everyone in this discussion, including the author. Why do you feel the need to repeat it?

    “Since about 9/11, most attacks were Jihadist. I just don’t see great numbers by neo-Nazis”

    Then you should re-read the thread and follow the links that were given earlier in the thread.

    “but in any event, Nazis traditionally have been allies of Jihadists.”

    Good point. We’ll classify them together on the far right then, along with any street gangs that specialize mostly in killing non-whites. It seems to be a pretty good fit: none of them care much for the rights of women or LGBT people, most stress strict patriarchal family roles, none of them are fond of diversity or multiculturalism, they all tend to dislike Jews, they all want to keep races or cultures separate from each other.

    ““Antifa”, “neo-nazi”, “black bloc”, “white nationalist”, these are just labels. If we look at statistics of which ethnic group commits more violent crimes, what is immediately apparent is that whites (and others, such as Japanese and Jewish) commit far less violent crimes than average.”

    Well that would seem to ignore who the crimes are committed against, motive, etc.

    “These labels are used as a screening mechanism, to heighten fear of white violence by denying the political nature of street gangs (of whatever ethnicity).”

    I still say they are non-ideological and don’t belong in this discussion, but if you insist on giving them an ideological classification let’s go ahead and classify them as white supremacists since they have taken over the KKK’s old niche of killing non-whites. If you get a chance see the “KKK comeuppance” segment of the 1995 film Tales from the Hood on this point. Unfortunately, I did not find a video clip just now.

  170. V for Vagina

    “BTW, when I participated in a pagan festival in the Lithuanian countryside, neo-nazis were there, and chanted during a concert”.

    Thanks for sharing that. But it’s not a counterpoint to “…People who don’t sympathize with the KKK and Nazis don’t march together with them in this country. It just doesn’t happen.” If you meant it to be a counter-point to that, it would be useful to note that Lithuania is not in this country and that concerts and marches are two different sorts of things.

    Therefore, it remains correct that “…People who don’t sympathize with the KKK and Nazis don’t march together with them in this country. It just doesn’t happen.” There were no “good people” on the fascist side in Charlottesville. 100% of them were white supremacists, and the statues were just a backdrop. Their main concern, as far as the entire Unite the Right rally, was the “Jew World Order” which is why the entire group chanted “Jews will not replace us.” It’s part of a white supremacist conspiracy theory that Jews control the world and are bringing in immigrants from third world countries as well as encouraging interracial marriage to destroy or “replace” the white race.

    Are you trying to say that if you were only concerned about “southern heritage” and the statues that you would show up to an event with a bunch of guys sporting swastikas and KKK hoods who were chanting about Jews, to a rally with a bunch of neo-nazis and anti-semitic speakers with posters featuring nazi eagles (check out the Unite the Right rally poster and go over the list of speakers yourself), and that you would continue to participate without sharing any of their anti-semitic, racist or neo-nazi beliefs?

    If that’s what you are trying to say it sounds like 100% pure unadulterated country manure to me, with plenty of flies buzzing all around it. If that’s not what you are trying to say then what was the point of bringing up your attendance at a pagan concert with neo-nazis in Lithuania?

  171. V for Vagina

    Regarding the persistent claims that Soros funds antifa, the evidence seems very thin, if there even is any. All the proponents of this claim can do is cite garbage like Breitbart, but when those claims are investigated further the evidence does not materialize. The best that can be said for this claim is that Soros funds some organizations that in turn give token amounts of money to various groups organizing events such as Occupy Wall Street and Disrupt J 20, but despite the names none of those organizations advocated violence. They did have small numbers of black bloc show up at such events, but so far zero evidence that those would want funding from Soros (who they consider to be a capitalist pig) or that he would have any interest in funding them.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/67wo7a/antifa_members_are_now_protesting_george_soros/ has a fisking of some of the persistent claims about Soros funding.

    Likewise, still zero proof of claims that antifa is better organized or better funded than white nationalists. I’m not sure how we would even begin to prove or disprove such a claim. The numbers of murders committed is at least a somewhat objective statistic, complicated only by the question of whether some murders were ideologically/racially or otherwise motivated.

  172. Chuck Moulton

    Kevin S Bjornson wrote:

    Trump would be Hoover-ized.

    What?!!

    This comment seems to be predicated on the assumption that Hoover was a capitalist / free marketer who stumbled ass-backwards into a depression, then was villified for it, leaving an opening for the left. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    Hoover jawboned businesses into hiking wages (preventing wages and prices from adjusting to equilibrium), implemented the Smoot-Hawley tarriff (decimating trade), and generally made a mess of the economy. This was a continuation of his policies as WWI Commerce Secretary overseeing wage and price controls, generally central planning like a dictator.

    The analogy is apt. Trump is Hoovering himself: tanking the economy with his war on free trade and immigration. When a depression naturally results, he has only himself to blame. And yes, this will probably be followed by a hard left socialist / progressive administration with even worse policies falsely claiming Trump was a free market guy. But emphatically Trump is not the victim; rather, he is the instigator.

  173. Chuck Moulton

    V for Vagina wrote:

    Regarding the persistent claims that Soros funds antifa, the evidence seems very thin, if there even is any.

    Evidence has never been a requirement for Andy and other troofers spouting their crazy conspiracy theories. If anything, they believe evidence makes something less likely, because any such “evidence” was probably planted by the Illuminati or the martians, or the Jews.

  174. Kevin S Bjornson

    Of course Hoover was not a free enterprise believer. Neither is Trump, but so far he has not started a trade war, in fact, he got China to buy US coal without instituting tariffs. He uses threats as a bargaining chip in the “art of the deal”, a muted version of how China is using NK. Trump acknowledged this, and gave China a pass on trade if they would buy coal from the US instead of NK etc.

    But the perception is that Hoover and Trump do represent free enterprise, which will be seen as failing due to the depression. This opens the door to the left, probably financed in large part by Soros. Here is proof that almost all his party donations are to dems:
    https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/recips.php?id=D000000306

    Clearly there is more toleration of Antifa on the democrat left, than the republican right. I’ve already produced documentation to that effect. Since antifa is leftist, that’s not surprising.

    This documents that the “Alliance for Global Justice” received a $50,000 grant from the Tides Foundation:

    http://afgj.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/AFGJ-990-2015-Small.pdf

    This documents that the Tides Foundation received $23,988,039 in 2005 from Soros’ Open Society Foundation:
    https://www.activistfacts.com/organizations/225-tides-foundation-tides-center/

    This documents that Alliance for Global Justice also received money directly from Open Society Foundation:
    http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/printgroupProfile.asp?grpid=7230

    This documents that AFGJ funds, inter alia, the Refuse Fascism group:
    http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=7917
    “Refuse Fascism (RF) was established shortly after the November 2016 U.S. presidential election in which Republican Donald Trump defeated Democrat Hillary Clinton. The creators of RF were Revolutionary Communist Party members Carl Dix, Sunsara Taylor (an advisory board member with World Can’t Wait), and Andy Zee (a spokesman for the Manhattan-based Revolution Books shop managed by the Maoist activist C. Clark Kissinger). One of RF’s key “founding initiators” was Cornel West.”

    “In an effort to prevent a Trump presidency from even getting off the ground, the RF manifesto exhorted leftist agitators nationwide to pour into the streets by “the tens of millions,” so as to “create … a profound political crisis” that would stop “the fascist regime” from being “able to take the reins of government.”’

    “RF drafted a petition titled Refuse Fascism Call to Action…Asserting, further, that “there is method to Trump’s madness” that “echoes Hitler” and is “more dangerous to the world than even Hitler,”’

    “In February 2017, RF played a major role in staging a loud, violent riot that forced the popular gay conservative Milo Yiannopoulos to cancel a speech which he was scheduled to deliver at UC Berkeley. All told, more than 1,500 protesters gathered at Sproul Plaza on the Berkeley campus, chanting and holding placards that read: “No safe space for racists” and “This is war.” Some of the demonstrators hurled commercial-grade fireworks and rocks at police; threw Molotov cocktails that ignited fires; smashed windows of the student union center where Yiannopoulos had been slated to speak; tore down metal barriers; set fires near the campus bookstore; and damaged the construction site where a new dorm was being built. “As police dispersed the crowd from campus,” said one news report, “a remaining group of protesters moved into downtown Berkeley and smashed windows at several local banks.” By the time the mayhem was over, the rioters had caused at least $100,000 worth of property damage on the grounds of UC Berkeley, plus another $400,000 to $500,000 in damage off campus.”

    Here is a video of the “Black Bloc” in action (Berkeley riot):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi_vX0tknJM

  175. Kevin S Bjornson

    Let me break this up into two posts, for technical reasons.
    Of course Hoover was not a free enterprise believer. Neither is Trump, but so far he has not started a trade war, in fact, he got China to buy US coal without instituting tariffs. He uses threats as a bargaining chip in the “art of the deal”, a muted version of how China is using NK. Trump acknowledged this, and gave China a pass on trade if they would buy coal from the US instead of NK etc.

    But the perception is that Hoover and Trump do represent free enterprise, which will be seen as failing due to the depression. This opens the door to the left, probably financed in large part by Soros. Here is proof that almost all his party donations are to dems:
    https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/recips.php?id=D000000306

    Clearly there is more toleration of Antifa on the democrat left, than the republican right. I’ve already produced documentation to that effect. Since antifa is leftist, that’s not surprising.

  176. Kevin S Bjornson

    This documents that the “Alliance for Global Justice” received a $50,000 grant from the Tides Foundation:

    http://afgj.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/AFGJ-990-2015-Small.pdf

    This documents that the Tides Foundation received $23,988,039 in 2005 from Soros’ Open Society Foundation:
    https://www.activistfacts.com/organizations/225-tides-foundation-tides-center/

    This documents that Alliance for Global Justice also received money directly from Open Society Foundation:
    http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/printgroupProfile.asp?grpid=7230

  177. Kevin S Bjornson

    This documents that AFGJ funds, inter alia, the Refuse Fascism group:
    http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=7917
    “Refuse Fascism (RF) was established shortly after the November 2016 U.S. presidential election in which Republican Donald Trump defeated Democrat Hillary Clinton. The creators of RF were Revolutionary Communist Party members Carl Dix, Sunsara Taylor (an advisory board member with World Can’t Wait), and Andy Zee (a spokesman for the Manhattan-based Revolution Books shop managed by the Maoist activist C. Clark Kissinger). One of RF’s key “founding initiators” was Cornel West.”

    “In an effort to prevent a Trump presidency from even getting off the ground, the RF manifesto exhorted leftist agitators nationwide to pour into the streets by “the tens of millions,” so as to “create … a profound political crisis” that would stop “the fascist regime” from being “able to take the reins of government.”’

    “RF drafted a petition titled Refuse Fascism Call to Action…Asserting, further, that “there is method to Trump’s madness” that “echoes Hitler” and is “more dangerous to the world than even Hitler,”’

    “In February 2017, RF played a major role in staging a loud, violent riot that forced the popular gay conservative Milo Yiannopoulos to cancel a speech which he was scheduled to deliver at UC Berkeley. All told, more than 1,500 protesters gathered at Sproul Plaza on the Berkeley campus, chanting and holding placards that read: “No safe space for racists” and “This is war.” Some of the demonstrators hurled commercial-grade fireworks and rocks at police; threw Molotov cocktails that ignited fires; smashed windows of the student union center where Yiannopoulos had been slated to speak; tore down metal barriers; set fires near the campus bookstore; and damaged the construction site where a new dorm was being built. “As police dispersed the crowd from campus,” said one news report, “a remaining group of protesters moved into downtown Berkeley and smashed windows at several local banks.” By the time the mayhem was over, the rioters had caused at least $100,000 worth of property damage on the grounds of UC Berkeley, plus another $400,000 to $500,000 in damage off campus.”

    Here is a video of the “Black Bloc” in action (Berkeley riot):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi_vX0tknJM

  178. dL

    This opens the door to the left, probably financed in large part by Soros.

    Do you even know who George Soros is? More specifically, before 2004?

  179. Kevin S Bjornson

    “Do you even know who George Soros is?”

    Yes, as i said, I used to work for his language institute in Vilnius.
    Also we have received funding from Open Society for some of the
    Liberty Camps I helped organize. Additionally, I’ve read about the guy.

    ” More specifically, before 2004?”

    You mean, what he did during WW2? If you have a point,
    please state it.

  180. V for Vagina

    So to summarize Kevin Bjornson’s “evidence”:

    Soros funded some organizations which in turn funded a very small percentage of the budget of some other organization which organized protests. These organizations are not the black bloc and don’t advocate violence. Most of the people who attended those protests did not engage in violence and did not necessarily condone it. However, the black bloc, which considers Soros to be a capitalist pig, also showed up at these same protests and engaged in some property destruction, rioting, hyperbolic “war” chanting, and nazi-punching. No one was killed. Was anyone even seriously injured? On the other hand, we can all agree, these actions by the black bloc were initiations of coercion and should be condemned.

    But how exactly does this translate to Soros funding the black bloc? At most, he funded a very small percentage, indirectly at that, of the funding of the organizations whose events the Black Bloc asswipes crashed.

  181. V for Vagina

    “You mean, what he did during WW2? If you have a point,
    please state it.”

    He was a kid during WWII, and would have been bound for the ovens himself if he had not helped with the roundups. He led a rather long and full life in the nearly 60 years between the end of WWII and 2004. But it’s rather telling that is the first and only thing that occurred to you as “Soros before 2004.”

  182. dL

    You mean, what he did during WW2?

    No…

    If you have a point,
    please state it.

    Actually, you confirmed it for me.

    Yes, as i said, I used to work for his language institute in Vilnius.
    Also we have received funding from Open Society for some of the
    Liberty Camps I helped organize. Additionally, I’ve read about the guy.

    Although I wouldn’t classify Soros as a “classical liberal,” he nonetheless is an intellectual descendant of the Mont Pelerin Society. Soros is no commie leftist. That’s just a garbage fake caricature invented by the wingnut noise machine. And you should know better.

  183. Kevin S Bjornson

    (V): “Charlottesville. 100% of them were white supremacists”

    (K) “V” asks me to document what is common knowledge, that Soros funds Antifa groups.
    I documented extensively and V just ignores that, going on about how maybe I am not the
    extensive reader I claim to be, and if I were not an idiot I would agree with whatever point
    “V” is trying to make.

    Yet “V” makes a categorical assertion like that above, asserting knowledge about “100%” of pro-statute protesters, which is not only preposterous on it’s face, but undocumented.

    One of the groups participating in the statute removal protest, was the League of the South. I dislike the group and their love for southern culture. But still they are not neo-nazis or necessarily racists; some self-identified libertarians even have written for that group, like Tom Woods, who has frequently been promoted on the national LP Facebook page. Also the Daily Caller, a former Business Insider CTO, Oath Keepers, Fuentes of Right Side Broadcasting, etc.

    When I stated that neo-nazis have not disrupted libertarian rallies, “V” tried to refute that by claiming neo-nazis did a false flag threat against a “libertarian” event featuring Invictus, pretending to be Antifa in order to make their main speaker, Invictus, a martyr.

    “V” seems to be simultaneously claiming that Invictus is a libertarian (to refute my claim that neo-nazis haven’t disrupted libertarian events) and then claims he is participating in a neo-nazi event (that was threatened by self-serving neo-nazis). At least when you promote conspiracy false-flag theories, make sure they are consistent, and relevant to the point you are trying to make.

    “Left” and “right” are misleading terms with no ideological consistency. So we should not be surprised when street gangs are not ideologically consistent.

    There are really just two extremes, force-initiation and pacifism. Liberty resides in between the two poles, allowing for the political and personal use of force, but only in retaliation or defense.

    So, when street gangs organize force, whether initiatory or defensive, that is an act of governing; and over time, this establishes government as a noun. Therefore, street gangs tend to be political, I don’t know of any that aren’t. Many of their activities are prohibited by the official government, that in itself makes a political statement. And the evidence is clear, certain groups in the US today, like whites, japanese, and Jews, tend to exhibit less force-initiatory behavior, whether organized or individual.

  184. V for Vagina

    “asks me to document what is common knowledge, that Soros funds Antifa groups.”

    Again, it depends on how you define antifa. If you mean Black Bloc style groups that directly advocate and/or participate in violence then you still have not even come close to proving anything like that. Refuse Fascism indirectly received 50k from Soros and put on an event where the majority of participants were not violent, but which the Black Bloc crashed and did in fact engage in violence. That does not equate to Soros funding violent antifa.

    “Yet “V” makes a categorical assertion like that above, asserting knowledge about “100%” of pro-statute protesters, which is not only preposterous on it’s face, but undocumented.”

    It’s fully documented. The rally was advertised with posters that featured nazi eagles, had a whole bunch of anti-semitic, white supremacist and neo-nazi speakers, and had a bunch of people there who wore KKK hoods and swastikas and/or waved swastika flags, chanted nazi and anti-semitic slogans, etc. People who don’t sympathize with those views in the US do not participate on the same side in such rallies.

    “One of the groups participating in the statute removal protest, was the League of the South. I dislike the group and their love for southern culture. But still they are not neo-nazis or necessarily racists;”

    Thanks for making my point for me. The League of the South has long since become explicitly white separatist and white supremacist. There are numerous white separatist and white supremacist statements on its websites, videos and publications and by its founder Dr. Michael Hill. Among many other things he has said that slavery is a Godly ordained institution, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

    ” some self-identified libertarians even have written for that group, like Tom Woods,…”

    In his recent response to Tom Knapp about his involvement with the League, Woods acknowledges that they are now a racist organization and claims that they were not at the time when he was involved.

    “who has frequently been promoted on the national LP Facebook page. ”

    Yeah, they should stop promoting him now.

    “Also the Daily Caller, a former Business Insider CTO, Oath Keepers, Fuentes of Right Side Broadcasting, etc.”

    Did what exactly? Your writing here is unclear.

    BTW, it was not a statue removal protest. That was just the backdrop. The main focus of the rally was opposition to Jews, immigration and race-mixing and what the organizers believe is “white genocide” aka “population replacement” orchestrated by Jews using race-mixing and immigration as tools to destroy the white race. They believe that the removal of the statues is part of the same Jewish globalist plot.

    “claiming neo-nazis did a false flag threat against a “libertarian” event featuring Invictus, pretending to be Antifa in order to make their main speaker, Invictus, a martyr.”

    Yes, that is exactly what they did.

    ““V” seems to be simultaneously claiming that Invictus is a libertarian (to refute my claim that neo-nazis haven’t disrupted libertarian events) and then claims he is participating in a neo-nazi event (that was threatened by self-serving neo-nazis). At least when you promote conspiracy false-flag theories, make sure they are consistent, and relevant to the point you are trying to make.”

    I thought you claimed to have good reading comprehension? I never claimed or even slightly implied that Invictus is a libertarian. However, he did join the LP and pretended to be a libertarian and was invited to speak at a libertarian event. His presence there did cause a reaction by antifascists but then Invictus and his friends created a false front antifa group, as was pointed out by all the actual antifa groups in that area. This false front group engaged in a variety of malicious activities such as promoting pedophilia and allegedly was the cause of the police telling event venues that they could not guarantee safety. The libertarian events were in fact disrupted by fascists centered around Invictus pretending to be antifa. Invictus did in fact go on to speak at his own event nearby and bring a bunch of sieg heiling clowns along with him. This is not a theory, these are all facts and entirely consistent.

    You lost me again with whatever point you are trying to make about street gangs. I’ve already told you that I’ll grant that they are on the side of the white supremacists for the purpose of this discussion, since they both tend to kill mostly non-whites. What point are you trying to make with that whole bizarre tangent again?

  185. V for Vagina

    ” common knowledge, that Soros funds Antifa groups.”

    You confuse common knowledge with commonly repeated bullshit.

  186. V for Vagina

    From Warren Throckmorton:

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2013/09/24/league-of-the-south-president-michael-hill-defines-southern-people-as-white-2/ League of the South President Michael Hill Defines Southerners as White – When Peroutka was on the board, Michael Hill defined Southern people as white.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/10/18/peroutka-should-not-be-surprised-by-white-separatism-in-the-league-of-the-south/

    ….video of a speech by Michael Hill opposing biracial marriage and extolling the superiority of whites

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/08/19/league-of-the-south-president-relish-being-a-white-supremacist/ In this 2014 post, Hill is quoted celebrating his white supremacist views.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2013/10/22/league-of-the-south-president-ethnic-nationalism-better-than-democratic-process/

    League of the South President: Southerners are Whites – League president Michael Hill was clear about his white supremacist views.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2013/10/18/league-of-the-south-rules-of-engagement-to-help-white-southerners-survive/ Michael Hill suggested several rules to help white Southerners survive.

    Need more?

  187. V for Vagina

    I think I have found where Kevin Bjornson may have become confused. The event that Invictus’ friends set up a fake antifa group to disrupt was to feature a lot of actual libertarian speakers. They made the mistake of inviting Invictus and a few other fascists masquerading as libertarians though. That was very unfortunate. The fascists went on to set up a fake antifa front, cause disruption to cancel the libertarian event, gathered sympathy and attention for themselves, then went on to have their own sieg heiling event featuring Invictus in the vicinity. Separately, the libertarian event also went on but with a lot fewer speakers and participants in the audience all because they made the big mistake of treating opportunistic fascist parasites pretending to be libertarians at face value.

  188. Thane Eichenauer

    dL> Zzz…

    On the video “Comedian Dave Smith on the Alt-Right, Christopher Cantwell, and How the Left ‘Went Off the Rails'” AKA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9tmqrTMQPs was Dave Smith really that awful boring? Would you have cut the length down or was it a total loss?

    I found it interesting enough though I didn’t find much of value in their discussion of Cantwell. Smith basically said that he couldn’t understand how Cantwell got to where he is.

    For those that prefer to read interviews than watch them the fine folks at Reason have provided a transcript.

    http://reason.com/reasontv/2017/09/08/dave-smith-ron-paul-libertas-comedy

  189. dL

    On the video “Comedian Dave Smith on the Alt-Right, Christopher Cantwell, and How the Left ‘Went Off the Rails’” AKA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9tmqrTMQPs was Dave Smith really that awful boring? Would you have cut the length down or was it a total loss?

    The title was “Libertarian Comedian Dave Smith on the Alt-Right…” And I find it boring to tag art w/ explicit political or religious marketing labels. To me, “Libertarian comedian” is like “Christian comedian” or “Christian rock.” It is way to market second-rate art to a niche segment. If your art is good enough, you don’t need to explicitly tag yourself like that. Besides, the best stand-up comedy, like the best rock n roll, is explicitly anti-authoritarian, and hence implicitly libertarian.

  190. paulie

    It was an interview, not a comedy segment. For the purpose of this interview libertarian is more to the point than comedian. Comedian in the title is just to establish that he is noteworthy for something or another.

  191. robert capozzi

    dL: Besides, the best stand-up comedy, like the best rock n roll, is explicitly anti-authoritarian, and hence implicitly libertarian.

    me: And yet many — perhaps most — rock n rollers and comedians are not L. Perhaps the “best” artists are not L as well.

    Has the “NAP rap” made the charts?

    Why would that be?

  192. Anthony Dlugos

    “To me, “Libertarian comedian” is like “Christian comedian” or “Christian rock.” It is way to market second-rate art to a niche segment. If your art is good enough, you don’t need to explicitly tag yourself like that.”

    Very true.

    While paulie may properly clarify the context, I wouldn’t even want to appear in such an interview described as “Libertarian comedian.” Unless I was an Ali G style comedy act and I was going to make a joke of the actual interview.

  193. paulie

    It’s a perfectly normal thing to put in the title of something like this when your fame level falls somewhere in between “who the fuck is this guy and why are they interviewing him” and “someone who needs no introduction.”

  194. George Dance

    dL – “I’m unable to find any online independent verification of that purported attack. The author did not link to any corroborating news account. Searching 3 different search engines for news of this recent antifa attack on Fredrik Nyqvist in Sweden turned up nothing(sans the reason.com article). A search of liberalapartiet.se turned up nada as well. News claims that cannot be independently corroborated are filed under “Fake News” in my book.”

    A bit harsh, don’t you think? The Dave Smith special is mentioned only on Reason, but that doesn’t make it “fake”. How many media would be interested in a non-fatal assault on some guy in a town no one’s ever heard of?

  195. George Dance

    dL – “The title was “Libertarian Comedian Dave Smith on the Alt-Right…” And I find it boring to tag art w/ explicit political or religious marketing labels. To me, “Libertarian comedian” is like “Christian comedian” or “Christian rock.” It is way to market second-rate art to a niche segment. If your art is good enough, you don’t need to explicitly tag yourself like that. Besides, the best stand-up comedy, like the best rock n roll, is explicitly anti-authoritarian, and hence implicitly libertarian.’

    No matter how good one is, it means nothing if no one ever sees it. Marketing is important, and niche marketing is a good way to begin. It’s great that libertarians are seen as large enough to be a niche.

  196. paulie

    How many media would be interested in a non-fatal assault on some guy in a town no one’s ever heard of?

    We could start with the Swedish LP itself for starters. Police report? Anything? It may be a tall tale. Even if it isn’t, it hardly shows that antifa is a threat to libertarians. I mean, we have a worldwide movement that has been around for close to 100 years and we have to go overseas for one alleged assault that may or may not have happened? I am not going to put that high on my list of things to worry about.

  197. paulie

    I’ve invited response articles to this one. We’ll see if anything comes of it. Readers who did not see that on FB are welcome to get in touch with me and other IPR writer/editors via the About IPR tab up top if you want to submit a counterpoint article for publication.

  198. dL

    It was an interview, not a comedy segment. For the purpose of this interview libertarian is more to the point than comedian. Comedian in the title is just to establish that he is noteworthy for something or another.

    I viewed the guy’s web site. http://comicdavesmith.com. It simply reminds me of what the evangelical christians tried to do in the 80/90s vis a vis niche marketing to “believers.”

  199. dL

    me: And yet many — perhaps most — rock n rollers and comedians are not L. Perhaps the “best” artists are not L as well.

    Culture is libertarian, politics is not. So, the art is libertarian while the artist may not be. That’s pretty much the way the world works. I mean who would listen to a rock album to get preached at RE: Hillary Clinton’s 35 point position paper on international trade? And I always chuckle when it comes to accusations of “liberal Hollywood.” The politics may be progressive but the product they sell most certainly is not. Way too much money at stake to use the art as a vehicle to promote proggie talking points. You know, imagine this:

    Batman: Alfred, I cannot in good conscience take the bat mobile out onto the public roads. It’s in clear violation of 45 EPA standards and 28 local city ordinances. To use it would be an unconscionable broach of democratic collective will.

    Alfred: But Batman, the Joker is on the loose! Do something, man!

    Batman: No, Alfred. The correct course of democratic action in this instance would be to organize a blue-ribbon panel headed by Chuck Schumer to combat the Joker problem by raising cigarette taxes another $5. I’ll arrange an FEC compliant fundraiser tomorrow.

  200. dL

    He, thanks.

    July, maybe Rush, and Drew Carey.

    Not the longest of lists….

    Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, Richard Pryor, Bill Hicks,…Did they identify as “libertarian.” No, probably not. Was their art libertarian? Absolutely. I included a clip above of the great Bill Hicks to demonstrate exactly that.

  201. Kevin S Bjornson

    Libertarianism is a political ideology. Art is libertarian to the extent it is libertarian, politically. Art per se is not political, though political elements can be added.

    Lenny Bruce criticized prohibition in some of his comedy acts. That is a political statement. Using swear words is not a libertarian statement in and of itself, but can be political if it is speaking in favor of free speech.

    Whether or not someone self-identifies as “libertarian” is a separate issue from whether they are truly libertarian. People like Rand, who after her experiences with Rothbard eschewed using the libertarian label to describe her political ideology, was in fact more libertarian than self-described “libertarian” Rothbard.

    “Libertarian” is not a code word for sending a third-finger salute to the world.

  202. dL

    “Libertarian” is not a code word for sending a third-finger salute to the world.

    Any fool can make a rule. And any fool will mind it.

    …………………./´¯/)
    ………………..,/¯../
    ………………./…./
    …………./´¯/’…’/´¯¯`·¸
    ………./’/…/…./……./¨¯\
    ……..(‘(…´…´…. ¯~/’…’)
    ………\……………..’…../
    ……….”…\………. _.·´
    …………\…………..(
    …………..\………….\…

  203. robert capozzi

    dL: Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, Richard Pryor, Bill Hicks,…Did they identify as “libertarian.” No, probably not. Was their art libertarian?

    me: Oh, maybe. Many of the commentariat limit the term L very narrowly, i.e., NAP Adherence, aka, NAPsters. I don’t recall any of them talking about non-aggression.

  204. paulie

    …………………./´¯/)
    ………………..,/¯../
    ………………./…./
    …………./´¯/’…’/´¯¯`·¸
    ………./’/…/…./……./¨¯\
    ……..(‘(…´…´…. ¯~/’…’)
    ………\……………..’…../
    ……….”…\………. _.·´
    …………\…………..(
    …………..\………….\…

    Old school 🙂

    With some fire in it:

  205. dL

    me: Oh, maybe. Many of the commentariat limit the term L very narrowly, i.e., NAP Adherence, aka, NAPsters. I don’t recall any of them talking about non-aggression.

    smh

  206. paulie

    My attempts to get a response article have so far drawn a blank. All I’ve managed to get is people who want to engage in attention deficit nested comment flurries based on the title, people saying they are too busy or might respond maybe, etc. The offer to receive an actual argument in response and publish it remains open.

  207. dL

    A bit harsh, don’t you think? The Dave Smith special is mentioned only on Reason, but that doesn’t make it “fake”. How many media would be interested in a non-fatal assault on some guy in a town no one’s ever heard of?

    Actually, the Dave Smith special, Libertas, is easily verified independently through an online search.

    RE: Fake News

    An antifa attack on 2 Swedish liberal party members would be searchable news event, particularly in today’s political climate(i used 3 different search engines, including google.se). It certainly would be a newsworthy event for the news/blog section of the Swedish Liberal Party website. The latest entry was posted yesterday, so the site it is kept up to date.

    If the attack was so insignificant to not an even merit a mention on the Swedish Liberal Party website, one wonders how in the heck Fredrik Segerfeldt learned about it? Is Mr. Segerfeldt personal friends w/ Fredrik Nyqvist? Does Segerfeldt know a guy who knows a guy who is dating Nyqvist’s sister? Without corroboration, the account should be filed under “anecdotal fallacy.”

    Fake news is ubiquitous. However, the thing that enables its ubiquity is the same thing that allows for it to be just as easily debunked. To avoid the “fake news” trap, questionable/dubious claims should always be independently verified, particularly when the medium in question is suspected of having an ideological axe to grind.

    The internet makes smart people smarter and dumb people dumber.

  208. Kevin S Bjornson

    I sent an e-mail to the author, but that was returned as undeliverable.
    I then notified Reason of the matter, and after a couple days got a response.
    They will check with the article’s editors.

  209. Kevin S Bjornson

    (P) “My attempts to get a response article have so far drawn a blank.”

    (K) What article? I scrolled back a ways, didn’t see any. This thread is getting long. Please re-post and I will refute if I disagree.

  210. dL

    I sent an e-mail to the author, but that was returned as undeliverable.
    I then notified Reason of the matter, and after a couple days got a response.
    They will check with the article’s editors.

    Well, I credit you for trying to do the job that Meredith Bragg, Stephanie Slade and/or Mark Lisheron failed to do.

  211. dL

    (K) What article? I scrolled back a ways, didn’t see any. This thread is getting long. Please re-post and I will refute if I disagree.

    I’m pretty sure Pauli is referring to any external rejoinders to the article he originally posted, “Why Libertarians need to denounce the Alt Right and white nationalists and don’t need to worry about libertarian socialists and antifa.”

  212. paulie

    That’s correct. I’m guessing that must be Kevin since I skip over his comments and (K) must be him. If he has an article he wants to submit in response we could publish that too. He can submit it to the IPR editors via the contact info in the “about IPR” tab at the top of the page, which goes for anyone else reading as well.

    If anyone is interested: If your response is reasonably well-argued I will publish it myself. If I don’t think that it is, since I am obviously not objective here, I will at a minimum submit it to the rest of the team to see if they think it has merit. Or, you can bypass me altogether and mail it directly to our other writer/editors, but I can make no guarantees whether they will publish it or not.

  213. dL

    If anyone is interested: If your response is reasonably well-argued I will publish it myself.

    I’m in full agreement w/ the piece. My guess regarding giving the piece some legs is to follow up on the possibility that Reason Magazine is publishing fake antifa news. That should stoke an external response.

  214. Kevin S Bjornson

    Within the LP and libertarian movement, there is little danger of a Marxist association; but there is clearly a problem due to association with Judeophobia, and to a lesser extent, dislike of blacks. That was clearly evident in the Ron Paul phenomena, which I foresaw in 1987 and why I voted for Russel Means instead of Ron Paul (at the national convention, which was held in Seattle due to me funding travel to LNC for a Washington state rep).

    There is also the curious case of the ubiquitous Matt Hasty, a neo-Confederate LP activist from Florida, who has frequently been (and as far as I know, still is) an Administrator for the national LP Facebook page. While he was administering the LP Social Media Marketing Group, I confronted him about his “The South Was Right” FB page, and it’s association with “White History Month” and David Duke. He didn’t want to talk about such issues and deleted me from the group (later, when someone else took over, I was able to rejoin). He also covered his tracks better in the groups he administers.

    Matt was the one responsible for an infamous national LP FB post, a graphic featuring a quote from Jew-hater isolationist Charles Lindbergh. Our comments in dissent got a few of us (from the libertarian hawk crowd) banned from the LP page. (I’ve been banned twice and reinstated twice.) We wrote a letter to the LNC complaining that the page often singled out Israel for criticism (for receiving US foreign aid, and having warplanes). This got wide circulation among LP defenders, but I didn’t write it, I think Bruce did.

    I offered to revise the letter, but my offer was rebuffed. So I wrote my own letter to Arvin Vohra, who was righteous enough to appoint me as Admin so I could re-instate several Israel-defenders who had been banned a year previous. I was able to reinstate some but not all (apparently FB software does not allow reinstating those banned over a year ago, as their names no longer appeared on the list of the banned, in the Admin panel). Arvin then fired me, claiming that I was part of a larger purge due to an alleged security lapse at the national page. Arvin has not responded to any of my subsequent e-mails, wherein I indignantly denied I was the wrong responsible for the alleged deletion of popular posts. Though we are FB friends and occasionally he responds to my posts.

    The LP is opportunistic, and turns a blind eye to neo-Confederates and Judeophobes so long as they can be used as a cash-cow (like with Ron Paul), but all of a sudden get righteous when a Republican like Trump sends out muted dog whistles, that don’t go nearly as far as what Ron Paul did. I think the worst re-post Trump did, featured “Pepe the Frog”, an adopted icon of the neo-Nazis. I had to unfriend someone in the pro-Trump movement who used similar icons.

    Nor is Ron Paul the only one in the libertarian movement with a Judeophobia problem. This can be traced at least as far back as libertarian guru, Albert J. Nock, who, in his last nationally-published article…
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1941/06/the-jewish-problem-in-america/306268/

    …put blame on Jews. There was a similar problem with H.L.Mencken. The problem is actually wider, because opposition to US entry into WW1 (I agree) morphed into opposition into US entry into WW2 (I disagree, as did most but not all libertarians, after Pearl Harbor).

    With 9/11, America had another Pearl Harbor. But not all libertarians agree(d). Some even claim, both events were false-flags, and use war criticism as a mask for their Judeophobia, claiming the US intervenes because Israel is the puppet master.

    Now that Ron Paul can no longer be used as a cash cow, the LP has dropped Judeophobia and has adopted a new mask, countering critics of Islam, equating Islam with other religions, and reaching out to them all, even including the satanists. This amounts to a repudiation of Ayn Rand, secular Jews, and humanists in general. A descent into insanity.

  215. Kevin S Bjornson

    The national LP is obviously pandering to whatever is trendy, which now is, “Social Justice”, a code for regulation of human interactions requiring businesses to sell for purposes that are government-approved.

    Such as Gary Johnson, who would force a Jewish-owned bakery to sell a cake to neo-Nazis celebrating Hitler’s birthday. Or extending the requirement for a license to marry, from heterosexuals to non-heterosexuals. According to polls, such views are trending among college-educated young people (which can be attributed to the decline of academia).

    Or requiring the US to allow entry to cultural supremacists, like Jihadists, who want to conquer what is left of civilization and install Sharia law. Of course, Islamists vote.

    This explains the LP’s outreach to RINOs like GJ and Bill Weld, who are politically correct on social issues. Gary isn’t even libertarian on economic issues, with his proposed 23% national sales tax (which would destroy many domestic retailers).

    So, the LP appears to be holding a wet finger up to the wind, to see what is trending. Which means, the LP has no reason for existence. If I want to vote for the lesser evil, I will vote for a centrist like Trump, who is not an ideological libertarian, but is clearly better than GJ or Hillary.

  216. Kevin S Bjornson

    Concerning which group is more responsible for violence at Charlottesville:

    We can’t rely upon statistics on which ones went to hospitals. The pro-statute crowd appears to have better protective gear, and are probably more reluctant to seek hospital attention (due to macho stoicism).

    All we can do, is read a collection of eyewitness reports. Here they are:
    http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-charlottesville-witnesses-20170815-story.html

    Charlottesville Daily Progress photographer Ryan Kelly: “I hitched a ride with my editor downtown, and I started wandering the mall. There were groups on both sides scattered. There were a few small fights that broke out from time to time. People were throwing stuff at each other. A few people were beating on each other.”

    BuzzFeed News reporter Blake Montgomery: “Most white supremacist and Nazi groups arrived armed like a paramilitary force — carrying shields, protective gear, rods and, yes, lots of guns, utilizing Virginia’s loose firearm laws. They used militarized defensive maneuvers, shouting commands at one another to ‘move forward’ or ‘retreat,’ and would form a line of shields or a phalanx — it’s like they watched ‘300’ a few times — to gain ground or shepherd someone through projectiles. It seemed that they had practiced for this.”

    Washington Post reporter Joe Heim: “Counter-protesters fought back, also swinging sticks, punching and spraying chemicals. Others threw balloons filled with paint or ink at the white nationalists. Everywhere, it seemed violence was exploding. The police did not move to break up the fights.”

    Washington Post reporter Joe Heim: “Although Virginia State Police and Charlottesville police were stationed along the sides and the rear of Emancipation Park, the Market Street side was unattended. As it filled with rally-goers and counter-protesters, the mix quickly became volatile.

    Jordan Green in the Nation, a leftist publication: “A phalanx of black-helmeted white supremacists — members of the Traditionalist Workers Party, Identity Evropa, American Vanguard, and other hate warriors — commanded the steps at the southeast corner of the park, repelling attempted incursions by Wobblies, communists, and a multiracial cast of irregulars eager to fight back. Water bottles and other projectiles flew in both directions, while police tear-gas canisters thudded into an adjacent parking lot, oftentimes lobbed back into the park by plucky leftists.”

    Unicorn Riot: “Police then pushed the white supremacists out of Emancipation Park, and closed the park…. Unable to continue rallying in the park, the white supremacists took to the streets, where they were quickly followed and confronted by anti-racists. Several more extremely violent fights took place, with police looking on from their nearby substation.”

    Redneck Revolt, an armed leftist group that brought rifles to Justice Park, one of the spots where anti-racist groups had gathered: “Redneck Revolt members formed a unified skirmish line”

    University of Virginia student Isabella Ciambotti: “I was on Market Street around 11:30 a.m. when a counter-protester ripped a newspaper stand off the sidewalk and threw it at alt-right protesters. I saw another man from the white supremacist crowd being chased and beaten. People were hitting him with their signs. A much older man, also with the alt-right group, got pushed to the ground in the commotion. Someone raised a stick over his head and beat the man with it, and that’s when I screamed and ran over with several other strangers to help him to his feet.”

    Leftist anti-fascist organizers from Washington, D.C.: “Before the attack occurred, we chased the Nazis out of their park, removing their platform.

    Clearly, there was violence on many sides, in approximately equal proportion. Impossible to statistically identity the proportion from hospital statistics.

    Though I will acknowledge, one unhinged neo-nazi was the only one to employ a tactic endorsed by Islamic State, that of vehicle ramming. This isn’t surprising, since at least WW2, there has been an alliance between Nazis and Jihadists.

    So, the LP should stop it’s dog-whistles to Jihadists (blaming the US for Jihadist grievances, and allowing their entry into the US).

  217. Anthony Dlugos

    “Such as Gary Johnson, who would force a Jewish-owned bakery to sell a cake to neo-Nazis celebrating Hitler’s birthday.”

    No he wouldn’t. His “Bake The Cake” answer was a pragmatic political one, not one borne of absolute adherence to a principle. Obviously, under that rationale, he’s not going to force a Jewish baker to do any such thing, being that it would be as suicidal politically as answering the Bake the Cake question with an absolute defense of property rights.

    “Or extending the requirement for a license to marry, from heterosexuals to non-heterosexuals. ”

    Of course. Its an easier solution than dying on the hill of ending marriage licensing when there are a thousand other things that more pressingly imperil this experiment in liberty, regardless how less-than-perfect it is.

  218. Gene Berkman

    I read the article by Albert Jay Nock on The Jewish Problem that Kevin Bjornson linked to. The problem that Albert Jay Nock exposes is the problem of anti-Semitism. He warns that an economic downturn could unleash brutal attacks against Jews, because of the economic ignorance of the average person, and the desire to look for scapegoats. Neither Albert Jay Nock nor The Atlantic are supporting anti-Semitism.

    Too many people, including many libertarians, think that if they read the title of an article or a book, they can understand and critique the view of the writer. But you actually have to look at what was written to make a reasonable analysis.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1941/06/the-jewish-problem-in-america/306268/

  219. paulie

    Too many people, including many libertarians, think that if they read the title of an article or a book, they can understand and critique the view of the writer. But you actually have to look at what was written to make a reasonable analysis.

    Yes, I’m having that problem with this one on FB. I asked for people to send in a well thought out response article if they disagree with this one. What I get instead is people who admit they haven’t and won’t read the article arguing with the title. And claiming I am trying to get traffic for “my” blog as if I owned IPR.

  220. paulie

    No he wouldn’t. His “Bake The Cake” answer was a pragmatic political one, not one borne of absolute adherence to a principle. Obviously, under that rationale, he’s not going to force a Jewish baker to do any such thing, being that it would be as suicidal politically as answering the Bake the Cake question with an absolute defense of property rights.

    Actually yes, he did say in the Stossel debate that he would extend the same argument to a Jew being asked to bake a cake for nazis.

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2016/04/gary-johnson-jewish-bakers-should-be-forced-to-bake-nazi-cakes/

    Petersen pushed Johnson on the issue and asked whether he felt Jewish bakers should be forced to bake wedding cakes for Nazi customers. Stossel directed the question to Johnson, who replied “that would be my contention, yes.”

  221. paulie

    Yes, I’m having that problem with this one on FB. I asked for people to send in a well thought out response article if they disagree with this one. What I get instead is people who admit they haven’t and won’t read the article arguing with the title. And claiming I am trying to get traffic for “my” blog as if I owned IPR.

    I did have one guy who said “maybe” so we’ll see if he comes through with anything. Caryn Ann said she is too busy, but might send a visual aid to help us see both sides more clearly. And someone else said he doesn’t want to because we would “thugscrum” him in the comments.

  222. Anthony Dlugos

    yes, I recall that response. More detail on that hubbub:

    https://www.facebook.com/govgaryjohnson/posts/10153109454754364

    “In a nationally-televised debate among three of the Libertarian candidates for President, a highly unlikely hypothetical question was raised about whether a Jewish baker has the right to refuse to serve a Nazi sympathizer asking for a “Nazi cake”. I responded to that question in the legal context of whether a public business has the right to refuse to serve a member of the public, as distasteful as it might be. The simple answer to that question is, whether all like it or not, U.S. law has recognized the principle of public accommodation for more than 100 years: The principle that, when a business opens its doors to the public, that business enters into an implied contract to serve ALL of the public. Further, when that business voluntarily opens its doors, the owners voluntarily agree to adhere to applicable laws and regulations — whether they like those laws or not.

    To be clear, anti-discrimination laws do not, and cannot, abridge fundamental First Amendment rights. I know of no one who reasonably disagrees. In the highly unlikely event that a Nazi would demand that a Jewish baker decorate a cake with a Nazi symbol, the courts, common sense, and common decency — not to mention the First Amendment — all combine to protect that baker from having to do so. It’s not an issue, except when distorted for purposes of gotcha politics.

    Does a public bakery have to sell a cake to a Nazi? Probably so. Does that bakery have to draw a swastika on it? Absolutely not. And that’s the way it should be.”

    FWIW, (and you can chose to believe me or not), I joked with Governor Johnson in Orlando about the ludicrousness of the question Petesen pushed him on, and he laughed and said its only among Libertarians that he would get such an “out-there” question. Note the use of highly-unlikely twice.

    As usual, Libertarians take these things to an n-th degree that would never occur in the real world.

  223. Kevin S Bjornson

    Concerning GJ and his position that bakeries should be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding (from his FB post):

    “In a nationally-televised debate among three of the Libertarian candidates for President (A debate that should, by the way, have been more inclusive of all the candidates.), a highly unlikely hypothetical question was raised about whether a Jewish baker has the right to refuse to serve a Nazi sympathizer asking for a “Nazi cake”. I responded to that question in the legal context of whether a public business has the right to refuse to serve a member of the public, as distasteful as it might be.”

    “The simple answer to that question is, whether all like it or not, U.S. law has recognized the principle of public accommodation for more than 100 years: The principle that, when a business opens its doors to the public, that business enters into an implied contract to serve ALL of the public. Further, when that business voluntarily opens its doors, the owners voluntarily agree to adhere to applicable laws and regulations — whether they like those laws or not.”

    “To be clear, anti-discrimination laws do not, and cannot, abridge fundamental First Amendment rights. I know of no one who reasonably disagrees. In the highly unlikely event that a Nazi would demand that a Jewish baker decorate a cake with a Nazi symbol, the courts, common sense, and common decency — not to mention the First Amendment — all combine to protect that baker from having to do so. It’s not an issue, except when distorted for purposes of gotcha politics.”

    “Does a public bakery have to sell a cake to a Nazi? Probably so. Does that bakery have to draw a swastika on it? Absolutely not. And that’s the way it should be.”

    (K) So, GJ is trying to make a fine distinction here: a Jewish-owned bakery should be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi wedding, but not if the wedding cake had a swastika. He didn’t make that distinction in his reply.

    Even if we accept that he meant to make that distinction, Jews should not be forced to work for Nazis, whether paid or not. That is the libertarian position.

    But then GJ proceeds to demolish that distinction, by comparing with the issue of Christian bakers forced to bake a cake for a gay wedding. In this case, the bakers had previously sold to the couple, and have no objection to selling to gay people. They just don’t want to bake a cake for their wedding. Probably the cake would feature figurines of the couple (indicating a homosexual wedding), just as a Nazi wedding cake would feature Nazi symbols (indicating a Nazi wedding).

  224. Anthony Dlugos

    Governor Johnson was not trying to win a coffee house debate among libertarian intelligentsia.

    If he made any mistake, it was to underestimate how silly doctrinaire libertarians and their questions can be. This is why, at the Saturday night debate in Orlando, he said something to the effect of “I’ve already answered that question” when asked about it again. At the Stossel debate, he should have cut the whole thing short from the get-go by indicating he was only going to answer the question once, so listen up. Then he could have moved on and the angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin libertarians could go back to their virtual coffee klatch debates about Zoroastrians and the cakes they want baked.

  225. Kevin S Bjornson

    Gene’s comments remind me of the “fair-taxers”, who assume that opposition to it must stem from ignorance. I have read the article, “The Jewish Problem in America”. The title is not the only problem (he repeated the phrase in his text), but in his other comments, which, while subtle, are troubling. Such as:

    “In the Islamic domain, while on religious grounds the Jew may not have been exactly a popular idol, he quite clearly did not suffer from Moslem fanaticism as an Occidental Christian would have done.”

    (K) Apparently Nock chooses to be ignorant of the pogroms of Jews in Israel, to which the Christians were not subject (to nearly the same extent). True, there was the Armenian massacre, but there were Armenian Jews subjected to the same massacre.

    “I never saw or heard of her [the Jewish girl he spent a few days with] afterwards, nor tried to do either. I have often thought, however, of what would happen if some rash and personable young Occidental fell in love with her—no one could help doing that—and married her. If he were sensitive, how distressed and dissatisfied he would be as he became aware of the vast areas of her consciousness from which he was perforce shut out forever; and on the other hand, if he were too insensitive to feel that he was shut out from them, how intolerable her life with him would be.

    [K] The majority of European Jews in America inter-marry with gentiles, and live a happy marriage. Such as Ivanka Trump.

    “For centuries the Jew was a herdsman in Southern Palestine, warlike and violent as all primitive herdsmen are, ‘truly indomitable fellows,’ as Mr. Mencken says, ‘and neither the dull hopelessness of the city proletariat nor the yet more dull helplessness of the tamed yokel was in them.’ Their subsequent experiences throughout the Western world have been uniformly of the kind best calculated to confirm and perpetuate in them their primitive qualities, and among these the quality of manners. That is the whole story.”

    [K] Jews are probably less primitive than the average American. Mencken also had a problem with Jews.

    “I shall mention only one more complication which is seriously disabling; it arises from the peculiar and suspicious sensitiveness which the Jew has developed, whereby he is prone to see enmity where there is none, and even more regularly to attribute dislike or distrust to a cause which does not exist. As a Jewish writer says of his people, ‘They tend to nurse the obsession that the only reason for the slightest rebuff from which they may suffer in business, social life, or any other activity, is a causeless anti-Jewish prejudice, quite unjustified by anything in their personal behavior as individuals.’ Or as an acquaintance once put it to me in more colloquial terms, ‘A Jew always thinks you dislike him because he is a Jew. It never seems to occur to him that you might possibly dislike him because he’s offensive.’

    “In my own case, in discussing Jewish affairs with Jews, I have often observed that instead of taking what I say they take what they think I say, and then add to that a wholly gratuitous string of what they think I mean, so that the total product has no resemblance whatever to anything that is, or has been, in my mind. The intelligent Occidental perfectly understands this peculiar sensitiveness, and knows how it came about, but the Occidental mass-man does not; and this puts innumerable exasperating difficulties, usually trifling in themselves, in the course of his relations with Jews.* By consequence, therefore, it makes uphill work for the social architect who undertakes to design a durable modus vivendi between the two peoples.”

    “* ‘In one of New York’s clubs the other day I heard a man put this point very well. He said, ‘When we are playing Kelly pool downstairs, if A (an Irishman] wins a big pot on an awful fluke, I can say, “Isn’t that a dirty Irish trick?” If B does it, I can say, “Isn’t that just what you’d expect from a conniving, swindling Massachusetts Yankee?” But if C does it, I can’t say, “That’s a dirty Jewish trick,” for it would hurt him -it really would – and everybody in the room would feel uncomfortable and a little bit shocked to hear me say it.’—Author”

    [K] The above passages clearly show, Nock is in denial, and accuses Jews of paranoia.

    This article is not the only troubling writing to come from the hand of Nock. He has made other troubling comments about Jews elsewhere, including his The Memoirs of a Superfluous Man”, which I recently finished reading.

    Such as this gem, from his Journal of Forgotten Days:
    31 August—Leaving for New York today, in great dissatisfaction, to be tied to the public libraries, which are infested with Jews, Turks, infidels, and heretics, such as orthodox members of the Church of England are supposed to pray for in the Good Friday collect.

    20 September—The Jewish holiday Yom Kippur yesterday closed New York up as tight as a white-oak knot. One would say there was not a hundred dollars’ worth of business done in all the town. It sets one’s mind back on Hitler’s policy. The question is not what one thinks of it as an American, but what one would think of it if one were a German in Germany, where the control of cultural agencies is so largely in the hands of Jews—the press, drama, music, education, etc.—and where there is, or was, a superb native culture essentially antithetical. Is one’s own culture worth fighting for? I think so. I think I would fight for it.”

    [K] Nock voted for president only once, and wrote in Jefferson Davis, the Confederate president.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Jay_Nock#Anti-Semitism_and_disillusionment_with_democracy
    “When Albert Jay Nock started The Freeman magazine in 1920, The Nation offered its congratulations to a new voice in liberal journalism. Nock rebuffed the gesture in a letter to the magazine’s owner, Oswald Villard, in which he wrote, “I hate to seem ungrateful, but we haint liberal. We loathes liberalism and loathes it hard.”‘

    [K] In 1920, “Liberalism” still meant what we now describe as “classical Liberalism”.

    William F. Buckley, the pretentious hatchet man, who allowed Whitaker Chambers to slander Ayn Rand (in the pages of his self-funded National Review), had an interesting father and upbringing.

    https://www.thenation.com/article/squire-willie/
    “Father Will–a third-generation Irish-American whose own father had been a prosperous merchant politician in Duval County, Texas, a county of notoriously corrupt politics–held all politicians and the democratic process in contempt. He believed Nazi Germany much less harmful than Communist Russia. One of Will Sr.’s favorite authors, Albert Jay Nock, became a personal friend and was often in the Buckley household when Bill was growing up. Along with being anti-democratic, Nock was, at least in his later years, “virulently anti-Semitic.” Young Buckley fell under Nock’s spell and never quit quoting him. Another of Will Sr.’s friends, Merwin K. Hart, was one of America’s most notorious anti-Semites for three decades.”

  226. dL

    The LP is opportunistic, and turns a blind eye to neo-Confederates and Judeophobes so long as they can be used as a cash-cow (like with Ron Paul), but all of a sudden get righteous when a Republican like Trump sends out muted dog whistles, that don’t go nearly as far as what Ron Paul did.

    Trump is not using a dog whistle. He is using a bull horn.

    Your criticism of American libertarianism’s association w/ some of the more putrid aspects of the far right have some merit, but you manage to drive the entire point into a ditch by excusing Trump.

    Your rejoinder, best I can ascertain, is that the past associations of some make criticism of the alt-right by anyone an exercise in hypocrisy. I categorically reject that. If anything, your series of posts only reaffirms Pauli’s position on the need to make an unequivocal disassociation from the right .

  227. Starchild

    Andy Jacobs writes (September 7, 2017 at 19:52):

    “Adam Kokesh tried to distribute his book, Freedom, to prisons, and it was officially banned, by the US Justice Department I believe. I am not sure if it was banned in jails though.

    At an appearance in Berkeley, Adam related a great quote from some government body, it might have been DOJ, or perhaps the Federal Bureau of Prisons, in relation to that ban. It was something along the lines of, “The entire contents of this book are a threat to the good order and safety of this institution.”

  228. Tony From Long Island

    As someone who spent 12 years locked up, I can tell you that media review is one of the most frustrating parts of being incarcerated. Courts give prison officials very wide discretion and almost always defer to their judgement when challenged. . . . . “Safety and security” concerns are almost impossible to counter in a legal argument. Trust me, I tried. Some facilities bar hardcover books entirely because shanks can easily be hidden in the binding. . . . It can be hard for people who have never been incarcerated to wrap their head around life in a correctional facility.

    Disclaimer: I give no opinion on whether Mr. Kokesh’s book should have been banned. I have not read it. I’m just giving a little info about the logistics.

  229. paulie

    I’ve read it, and the ban seems silly to me. It’s anti monopoly government, but not in any violent way. As either I or someone else said earlier, all the different county and state jails and prisons make their own decisions about what they ban and what they don’t, so Adam was only talking about the federal system. It’s possible that some other jails and prisons ban his book also but there’s no centralized registry of these things.

  230. Andy

    Adam Kokesh’s book is only 100 pages in length, and I think it is only available in softcover, so I doubt anyone could use it to smuggle weapons.

  231. George Dance

    Andy Jacobs: “Adam Kokesh tried to distribute his book, Freedom, to prisons, and it was officially banned, by the US Justice Department I believe. I am not sure if it was banned in jails though.”

    Did it advocate killing guards?

  232. Andy

    Anthony, have you actually read Adam’s book, or are you just talking out of your ass again?

    I’d be willing to bet that Adam Kokesh’s book has turned more people to liberty than Gary Johnson’s book has.

  233. Tony From Long Island

    Andy:

    Adam Kokesh’s book is only 100 pages in length, and I think it is only available in softcover, so I doubt anyone could use it to smuggle weapons.

    Andy, did you actually READ my whole post? I never said THIS book would be used to smuggle weapons. I was giving a generalized explanation of how Media Review works in correctional facilities.

  234. paulie

    I read the book, and didn’t find it to be particularly boring or repetitive, nor did I see anything that urged violence or anything that would legitimately undermine the safety of jails or prisons. It does at least try to undermine faith in monopoly government as a whole, which may be a revolutionary idea to those who have never encountered it, but was not in any way new to me. I guess I can see how bureaucrats may think that advocating anarchy and thinking outside the lines is bad for institutional discipline, but I think they went too far in this case.

    Speaking of Kokesh, Andy, have you had any luck downloading your interview to youtube? I think someone here may be able to help you if you haven’t figured it out. It wouldn’t hurt to ask.

  235. Anthony Dlugos

    “I read the book, and didn’t find it to be particularly boring or repetitive, nor did I see anything that urged violence or anything that would legitimately undermine the safety of jails or prisons. ”

    I can concede that Kokesh must have some level of persuasive ability and a magnetic personality, and maybe is a good activist, but the book clear demonstrates his limited knowledge of policy, lack of experience in electoral politics, and what a disaster of a presidential candidate he would be. He’d not be interested in learning policy, and any interview he did would go off the rails quickly. (not that he has any chance of winning the nomination).

  236. Andy

    “Tony From Long Island
    September 15, 2017 at 08:00
    Andy:

    ‘Adam Kokesh’s book is only 100 pages in length, and I think it is only available in softcover, so I doubt anyone could use it to smuggle weapons.’
    Andy, did you actually READ my whole post? I never said THIS book would be used to smuggle weapons. I was giving a generalized explanation of how Media Review works in correctional facilities.”

    I was just pointing out to those who may not be aware, that the book is only 100 pages in length, and that it has only been printed in softcover format.

  237. Tony From Long Island

    AD, We already have a president who knows nothing about policy. Hard to imagine someone being less informed on policy than DJT!

  238. Anthony Dlugos

    lol, true.

    of course, when debating with the fringe element in the LP. who use Trump’s victory to demonstrate that a political novice could win office, he did have 40 years at the head of a 23,000 employee billion-dollar company. That takes some level of organizational ability and political skill.

  239. robert capozzi

    ad,

    Some/most of the fringe also seem to believe that DJT’s shoot-from-the-hip, wacko style of political discourse is a model for Ls. I suspect they think that being bombastic is seen as somehow “honest,” and they are correct that honesty is indeed attractive, politically and otherwise.

    Unfortunately, bombast is very often DIShonest. It’s often base manipulation, as DJT demonstrates.

  240. Tony From Long Island

    I have no sympathy for any of the lemmings who now say “wait . . . he isn’t keeping his promises.” If you couldn’t tell he was a con man for the last 40 years, It might just be YOU! 🙂

  241. Kevin S Bjornson

    I unequivocally repudiate both left and right, as well as non-ideological non-political force-initiation.

    Statistics indicate, Jihadist groups are responsible for the vast majority of terrorist attacks, worldwide, from 2000-2016:
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/592630/terror-groups-most-attacks-2000-to-2014/

    Leftist groups are a distant second. No right-wing group has done terrorist attacks in this time period, and unaffiliated individuals are in last place and have done a statistically insignificant number.

    Broken down by country, all statistically significant numbers are in Islamic areas (or India, where Muslims come into conflict with Hindus):
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/236983/terrorist-attacks-by-country/

    Concerning terrorist attacks in the US, this shows them all:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States#2000.E2.80.9309

    However, when they break down into motivation, most of the Islamic-inspired ones are not included in their category “Islamist Extremism”. For instance, this list does not show any for the year 2000, but if you go back into their over-all list, several attacks are shown that are Islamist-inspired, such as the Synagogue attack by Mazin Assi and co-conspirators, to “strike a blow in the Middle East conflict between Israel and Palestine”; and Ramsi Uthman, who fire-bombed Temple Beth El. Ramsi was born in Venezuela to Palestinian parents, and after his firebombing, said “I did this for you, God!

    Since 2000, there have been only 5 attacks by white supremacists. The body count for all such attacks comes to 20. While the body count from 9/11 alone is about 150 times that.

    Clearly the left causes more body counts, but most are not terrorist attacks. For instance, the US body count from the Vietnam war is about 50,000.

    When the 20 who died at the hands of white supremacists are weighed against those who died in 9/11 alone and those who died at the hands of communists, the number “20” is insignificant.

  242. dL

    Clearly the left causes more body counts, but most are not terrorist attacks. For instance, the US body count from the Vietnam war is about 50,000.

    So which political side gets the blame for the Vietnamese body count?

    Absurd silliness…

  243. Kevin S Bjornson

    I thought we were talking about, which group causes the most damage to Americans? For every victim of a terrorist or military attack, there are attempts to justify the attacks; but that’s a separate issue.

  244. Luke

    I can’t be sure, but I think Kevin Bjornson may be saying that the warmongering mainstream rightwing military-industrial establishment kills a lot more Americans and a lot more people in general than any extremists of any stripe, whether right or left. Or perhaps he is saying that all those deaths were the fault of the communists, even though they were fighting a war for control of their own country and the US was not obliged to be there at all. Whatever he is saying it does not seem to have much to do with either right or left wing terrorism in that instance.

    Also, is he trying to lump in Jihadis as left wing? If so, why?

    “Since 2000, there have been only 5 attacks by white supremacists. ”

    This statement also seems to be blatantly false. I don’t feel like scrolling back up right now, but I’m absolutely sure numerous links to much higher numbers of racist attacks were given earlier in the thread.

  245. wolfefan

    Kevin’s Wikipedia link lists at least 11 right wing attacks since 2010, depending on how you define right wing. I am including white supremacist in that definition.

  246. Kevin S Bjornson

    Yes, 11 “right wing” attacks since 2000 sounds about the correct amount, including white supremacists.

    Though there is a problem with defining “right wing”. If Nazis are to be considered part of the right, then we have to include Islamists in that category as well. Nazis and Islamists have traditionally been allies, for they share a virulent hatred of Jews, and offer a mixed economy, neither fully communist nor fully capitalist. They also have similar views toward women, though Islamists tend to be more conservative in that regard. Both Nazis and Islamists tend to be racists, though typically they are pragmatic enough to work with other ethnic groups.

    There hasn’t been as much Jihadist terrorism in the US as worldwide, because the US has better security, fewer Muslims, and the Muslims we have tend to be more assimilated and less religious. But even if we look just at incidents in the US, by far the greatest number of attacks and fatalities have come from Jihadists.

    Anti-abortion activists probably come in second. Islam typically allows abortion after the 4th month, which is similar to my view. Which explains why most anti-abortion terrorists are Christian.

    As I have pointed out before, ethnic street gangs are prototype governments, since they organize force to control human behavior according to a code and extract money by force. The map is not the territory. Just because most people don’t consider street gangs to be political, that doesn’t mean they aren’t. Clearly, when they do offer goods or services for sale, those tend to be illegal (according to the official government) so that by itself makes a political statement, just as the official government prohibiting those things makes a political statement. Obviously, since prohibition is political, anti-prohibition is also political, for example.

  247. Luke

    OK, so Islamists are right wing and so are nazis. That’s almost all of your terrorist attacks right there, especially if you also include anti-abortion extremists which leaves only about 2% of terrorist attacks coming from the left wing – and that’s if you want to stretch the definition of left wing to include black supremacists.

    I don’t understand why street gangs are brought up here. Are they right wing? Left wing? What are they? I don’t see any ideological component to gang warfare. Selling contraband is not making a statement that drugs should be legal. If anything, people who make their living selling contraband do not want drugs to be legal as it would mess up their profits. You can make an exception to that for some hippies selling a little bit of drugs to keep themselves in drugs and get by, but when you are talking about street gangs which make a whole bunch of money off dope they are not going to be so idealistic about legalization. So no, they are not “anti-prohibition” …Al Capone probably wasn’t either.

  248. Anthony Dlugos

    I don’t want to tell some of you guys that I told you so, but, I told you so:

    http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/new-poll-some-americans-express-troubling-racial-attitudes-even-as-majority-oppose-white-supremacists/?ncid=edlinkushpmg00000313

    “A new Reuters/Ipsos poll conducted in conjunction with the University of Virginia Center for Politics finds that while there is relatively little national endorsement of neo-Nazis and white supremacists, there are troubling levels of support for certain racially-charged ideas and attitudes frequently expressed by extremist groups.”

    “…14% of all respondents both 1) agreed that white people are under attack and 2) disagreed with the statement that nonwhites are under attack.”

    “Nearly one-third of respondents (31%) strongly or somewhat agreed that the country needs to “protect and preserve its White European heritage.” Another third (34%) strongly or somewhat disagreed with the statement, and 29% neither agreed nor disagreed.”

    “In separate questions, each asking whether/to the extent respondent supported various ideologies:

    6% of respondents said they strongly or somewhat supported the alt-right.
    8% expressed support for white nationalism.
    4% expressed support for neo-Nazism.”

    Now, I’ll repeat what I said before: I’m not concerned with some penny-ante skirmishes in some small college town. 31% of the 200,000,000 white people in this country think we need to protect “our” white european heritage, and 14% of the same 200,000,000 are under some comically dark delusion that white people ARE under attack AND disagreed with the statement that nonwhites are under attack. That’s now. And the sh*t has hardly hit the fan yet (here’s hoping it doesn’t).

    To worry about antifa has to be some kind of land speed record for missing the forest for the trees. Because if things get wet-n-wild in this country, antifa is gonna lose, and their gonna lose big.

  249. paulie

    It’s actually much worse than that. Those are the percentages for the total population. The percentages among only those respondents identified as white were much higher. Check out the cross tabs.

  250. Anthony Dlugos

    wow. right you are.

    I see 35% of whites only either strongly agree or somewhat agree about protecting White European heritage.
    43% of republicans
    22% of democrats (information that Hillary might have found interesting prior to the election).

  251. Kevin S Bjornson

    Yes, of course, street gangs that finance themselves through sales of illegal drugs, do not really want drugs legalized. But that is a political statement (that they don’t want drugs legalized). They are making money from prohibition, just as the cops are. Which explains why so many cartels are paying off politicians and cops, and why police so closely resemble a mafia.

    The left has a bloody history, even worse than Nazism. Stalin and his fellow-commies have murdered many more millions. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, they have lost the commanding heights of power, but still there is potential for another massacre: N. Korea.

    The fall of the Third Reich discredited Nazism, but the fall of the Soviet Union did not discredit communism to the same extent (among mass media and academia). The left is in a more powerful position to influence the young, which explains the rise of Antifa.

    Soros and others finance them, and the puppetmasters are not stupid, they realize that too much violence will discredit the cause, so they attach strings to their largesse, which is funneled through reliable channels that can be counted on to control their thugs. And, because they want martyrs, they don’t encourage their stooges to wear protective padding. While neo-nazis are fewer in number, and are largely self-funded, and armor themselves.

    Islamists, and their fellow travelers the neo-nazis, now have replaced the Soviet Union as the greatest immediate threat. Though in the long-term, socialism is a more widespread, diffused threat, and hurts efforts by the civilized world to extinguish Islamists. Because of harm to the economy.

  252. dL

    I don’t want to tell some of you guys that I told you so, but, I told you so:

    When has it ever NOT been like this? You think this is new? It’s a simple(but lengthy) textbook exercise to go through the sordid history of ethnic/race relations in the United States. The only thing that is really new, relatively speaking, is that “white culture” category has expanded from what was historically considered to be the “good ole anglo-saxon white culture.” Back in the day, jews, Irish, Italians…were excluded from the sociological understanding of “whiteness.”

    Things that may be new to us but which are not new historically would be, among other things, the attachment of these privately held feelings to an overt folk nationalism. And a national security state already in place capable of enforcing the thing en masse.

    Now, I’ll repeat what I said before: I’m not concerned with some penny-ante skirmishes in some small college town. 31% of the 200,000,000 white people in this country think we need to protect “our” white european heritage, and 14% of the same 200,000,000 are under some comically dark delusion that white people ARE under attack

    Agreed. However, I will point something out that I’ve said before, Anthony. If you are going to subvert libertarian principle in the name of the “overton window”, the paleos will fire back that the Reuters poll is the private overton window…at least for good middle-class folk. The primary difference, more or less, between your political strategy and the paleo strategy is that they hold the public overton window to be a “politically-correct” sham.

    You might want to think a bit longer and harder on your overton window musings in the future.

    To worry about antifa has to be some kind of land speed record for missing the forest for the trees. Because if things get wet-n-wild in this country, antifa is gonna lose, and their gonna lose big.

    Agree. More or less. But things don’t necessarily have to get “wet-n-wild.” Things can simply proceed as normal. That is, either by:

    (1) infiltration and discrediing by SOP COINTELPRO
    (2) complete absorption into the New Republic Progressive Borg…which is compete abandonment of direct action for the 25 point progressive plan to restore America

    The thing I would add to Pauli’s essay is that American libertarianism by and large suffers from “leftist derangement syndrome.” What does that mean? Well, it means that libertarians are largely aligned with the intellectual culture of the right. Libertarianism and conservatism are viewed as natural cousins. Something like the Trump or the alt-right is viewed merely as a deviation from “principled conservatism.” Whereas something like antifa or PC campus speech culture is what the left IS. Any libertarian critique of the left, merited or not, merely borrows from the right-wing talking points. Even those who are critical and/or have been critical of the alt-right are almost obligated to make a moral equivalence between the alt-right and antifa.

  253. dL

    Yes, of course, street gangs that finance themselves through sales of illegal drugs, do not really want drugs legalized. But that is a political statement (that they don’t want drugs legalized).

    That’s actually not true. The “Bootleggers and Baptists” hypothesis is flawed. Anecdotally, I found little, if any, support for drug prohibition in the underground trade. Indeed, quite the opposite: most would morally justify their trade on the basis that it should be legal.

    Of course, anecdotal accounts are not proof. But I note I’m not aware of any studies that have directly linked the underground trade to lobbying/financial support for prohibitionist politicians or groups.

    Empirically, the better hypothesis is: “baptists and pharmaceutical execs.” There you will find your empirical evidence.

    The fall of the Third Reich discredited Nazism, but the fall of the Soviet Union did not discredit communism to the same extent (among mass media and academia). The left is in a more powerful position to influence the young, which explains the rise of Antifa.

    I can assure you that communism has never had any credit in the American mass media. And after the dissolution of the soviet union, the generalized conception of state socialism itself no longer had any cachet in American mass media, either.

    Why has “socialism” made a comeback? Well, because “democratic capitalism” has produced a surveillance/police state that would be the envy of the commies.

    Recall Hayek’s primary argument against state socialism in “The road to serfdom.” Fabian Socialism and National Socialism led to the same thing, a police state. Well, it’s a bit difficult to argue the price of state socialism is department of homeland security when you already have a department of homeland security.

    In other words, if you already have an obviously rigged system, it is not difficult to imagine people making a calculation that if we are going to have rigged system, might as well have one rigged more to their benefit.

    Soros and others finance them, and the puppetmasters are not stupid, they realize that too much violence will discredit the cause, so they attach strings to their largesse

    George Soros does not finance antifa. And you know better…

    Islamists, and their fellow travelers the neo-nazis, now have replaced the Soviet Union as the greatest immediate threat. Though in the long-term, socialism is a more widespread, diffused threat, and hurts efforts by the civilized world to extinguish Islamists. Because of harm to the economy.

    Bjornson, you are so full of shit. You sound like a bad SNL parody of Alex Jones w/ this nonsense. LOL

  254. Kevin S Bjornson

    Some naive participants in illegal drugs trade do justify their behavior by saying it should be legal. But that too is a political statement. Either in cahoots with government or in opposition to it, the political dimension cannot be denied. Both situations occur, as in “silver or lead”.

    Concerning the Jihadist/Nazi alliance, that didn’t go away with the fall of the Third Reich. This Drew Pearson article documents Saudi government funding of American neo-Nazis beginning in 1957, and in 1959 there was collaboration with the Nasser government:

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ilNYAAAAIBAJ&sjid=gfcDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4829%2C4470752

  255. Starchild

    Kevin S Bjornson writes (September 15, 2017 at 16:01), “Ramsi was born in Venezuela to Palestinian parents, and after his firebombing, said “I did this for you, God!'”

    And God took off his fine mask, which he had heretofore worn in Ramsi’s presence, when the man’s life still lay in front of him, and finally showing his true hideous Devil’s face, leered at the terrorist and said, “Thank you for your support!”

  256. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Someone wrote: “Soros and others finance them, and the puppetmasters are not stupid, they realize that too much violence will discredit the cause, so they attach strings to their largesse”

    Soros and other wealth liberals DO fund a number of liberal/progressive organizations that have organizers who support and promote black bloc “Diversity of tactics”. They hire organizers who originally bullied grass roots activists into putting up with it (circa 2000-2001) and now have made it “the new normal” in activism. You don’t have to take part but you are NOT allowed to criticize.

    I knew those people, I knew who they worked for, I knew who their organizations got money from. It’s not that big a secret if you just observe activism today. Also, so much of it is astroturfed since smart phones took over the world.

    To whatever extent they knew what was going on, funders turned a blind eye.

  257. Anthony Dlugos

    dL,

    just to clarify, I was being a bit jokey with the “I told you so” comment. I was under the (proper) impression that most people around here already knew what that poll revealed.

    I’m not sure if I understand what you are telling me about my overton window statements, but if I take it the way I think you mean, I will refer to what RCapozzi has said here previously: I don’t mind being at the edges of the Window. I mind being on Mars in a purely theoretical house when the voting populace is back here on Earth in a real house with a real frame of reference. I don’t think being here in the real world means we are automatically flirting with paleo or alt-reich takeover or something. In fact, I think the opposite: being in the theoretical world makes that more likely.

  258. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Looking at reports on Berkeley protests vs. Ben Shapiro speech (where face masks and weapons banned), I think cops have gotten the message they have to separate the groups, even if it costs $600,000 just for that ONE protest.

    Senator Pelosi condemning violence surely was a message heard by all those who fund groups that condone or encourage such street violence as well.

    So hopefully both sides will chill and get mostly rational.

  259. Anthony Dlugos

    “Looking at reports on Berkeley protests vs. Ben Shapiro speech (where face masks and weapons banned), I think cops have gotten the message they have to separate the groups, even if it costs $600,000 just for that ONE protest.”

    Agreed. Charlottesville police were amateur hour.

  260. Anthony Dlugos

    “Looking at reports on Berkeley protests vs. Ben Shapiro speech (where face masks and weapons banned), I think cops have gotten the message they have to separate the groups, even if it costs $600,000 just for that ONE protest.”

    Agreed. Charlottesville police were amateur hour.

  261. Gene Berkman

    Just a few random thoughts on issues brought up:

    (1) Nazis and Islamists are not necessarily allies. Some fascists do in fact applaud Jihadi violence – at least one prominent German neo-Nazi applauded the attack on the Twin towers, and other Nazi groups have provided aid to Palestinian groups. Other Nazis see Arabs as non-white and Muslims as a threat to western civilization, and see widespread hatred of Arabs and Muslims as a healthy trend in America that they can exploit.

    (2) Socialism is to be opposed because it is oppressive and it does lead to poverty and loss of freedom. But socialist states do fight terrorists, and usually are more brutal and less committed to due process. The alliance of Russia and the Assad regime in Syria are brutally oppressing ISIS along with everyone else is Syria, and may wipe out the Syrian part of the caliphate as they re-establish Assad’s total dictatorship.

    (3) DL is correct, at least as regards marijuana – most black market drug dealers would like to see their trade legalized. Some with experience in the black market have become part of the legal medical marijuana trade, and looking in California to 2018 when legal sales of recreational marijuana begin, thanks to Prop. 64.

    (4) And a point too important to pass up: I have spent many years selling books in opposition to fascism, national socialism and other forms of collectivism – in English, German, French etc – and now I sell movies and documentaries on the subject as well. But I do think that preserving European culture in America is important, and I sell literature in the main European languages along with European films, etc. Appreciating European culture does not show that you are a Nazi – quite the contrary, as the well-documented Nazi attacks on culture show.

  262. Kevin S Bjornson

    I applaud comments by Starchild, indicating he may yet be a worthy successor to the original Starchild of the sixties anarcho-capitalist movement. and also to Carol for her factual comments, and a few others.

    Gene had some nice observations. I have not denied that some neo-nazis have not received the memo, originating from Hitler, to ally with Jihadists. Of course Hitler viewed Arabs as inferior, as they are not fully European. Yet he got the idea for genocide from the Turkish massacre of white Armenians.The Japanese are not European at all. Yet he still allied with them. and so on.

    Self-identified counter-Jihadist neo-nazis tend to be
    —outliers or individuals not connected with the larger neo-Nazi movement,
    –or these could be considered as insincere efforts to exploit current trends for opportunistic reasons,
    –or they maybe fascists but not neo-nazi.

    The similarities between the Nazi and Jihadist movements cannot be denied, even though I acknowledge they are separate movements and might have internal squabbles. Much as Hitler expressed dissatisfaction with Mussolini, or pissed off the Japanese by his temporary alliance with Stalin.

    Here’s an interesting recent news item, indicating there is as-yet non-lethal violence from the left in suppression of political thought:
    http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-baked-alaska-stabbing-20170620-story.html

    Russia is not today a socialist state, they are authoritarian with some fascist tendencies. We cannot reasonably expect that all counter-Jihadist must be libertarian, in fact if we relied upon self-identified libertarians for that purpose we would be limited to the size of, say, the Abraham Lincoln battalion. With a greater number of self-identified libertarians sympathizing or excusing the Jihadist side. Wholly insufficient to the task. So yes, we must cooperate with Russia in suppressing Islamic State, and offer incentives for Russia to break it’s alliance with Iran, after Islamic State has been destroyed.

    In any event, the price of oil must be increased, to avoid bankrupting a big chunk of the US fracking industry. If the US or Israel destroyed Iran’s oil export facilities, that would lead to a spike in oil prices, benefiting the US and Russia.

    I re-iterate, a few idealists in the illegal drugs trade do support legalization, in fact the original legalization effort in Oregon was funded and organized by such. Yet the really heavy-hitters cynically realize where their bread is buttered, and pay-off government officials, in order to continue to exploit prohibition. Either way, they are making a political statement, in support or opposition to prohibition, or some combination thereof.

    Current state initiatives are not really legalization, but are a crony-capitalist takeover of the industry, similar to what caused the Whiskey Rebellion.

  263. Luke

    “(1) Nazis and Islamists are not necessarily allies. Some fascists do in fact applaud Jihadi violence – at least one prominent German neo-Nazi applauded the attack on the Twin towers, and other Nazi groups have provided aid to Palestinian groups. Other Nazis see Arabs as non-white and Muslims as a threat to western civilization, and see widespread hatred of Arabs and Muslims as a healthy trend in America that they can exploit.”

    These are not necessarily contradictory stances. Most white supremacists tend to side with the Muslims against Israel, and at the same time see Muslims (and even non-Muslims from predominantly Muslim nations) as a threat when they move to what they call “white countries.” They almost universally applaud Muslim violence against Israel, and whether they applaud or condemn Muslim attacks on the US depends on whether they see the US as primarily a “white country” or primarily as a “zionist occupied government.” White Supremacists want Muslims to stay in “their own” part of the world and fight against Israel (and each other) but to stay out of “white countries.”

  264. Luke

    “Socialism is to be opposed because it is oppressive and it does lead to poverty and loss of freedom. But socialist states do fight terrorists, and usually are more brutal and less committed to due process. The alliance of Russia and the Assad regime in Syria are brutally oppressing ISIS along with everyone else is Syria, and may wipe out the Syrian part of the caliphate as they re-establish Assad’s total dictatorship.”

    That’s all true, but as presented above is a non-sequitur. Russia these days is not socialist, although it could reasonably be described as kleptocratic, oligarchic, crony capitalist or nascently fascist.

  265. Luke

    “(3) DL is correct, at least as regards marijuana – most black market drug dealers would like to see their trade legalized. Some with experience in the black market have become part of the legal medical marijuana trade, and looking in California to 2018 when legal sales of recreational marijuana begin, thanks to Prop. 64.”

    I think you are overgeneralizing. The Mexican Cartels have this attitude? Crips, Bloods, Nuestra Familia, Surenos, Mara Salvatrucha? Yes there are are pot conoisseurs who import, grow, sell and use pot and are happy to move into the legal markets. But as far as murderous street gangs go they either don’t give a shit whether it becomes legal or not (after all there will always be some contraband for them to sell, people to shake down, murder and intimidation for hire, and so on) or they would prefer to keep the profits high. You have to remember that going to prison or dying early are part of that lifestyle and business model and they all expect a high likelihood of one, the other or both. It also helps to remember that marijuana is only one of the drugs they sell, and one of the ones that is most questionable in this regard. But do a lot of meth or heroin dealers want those legalized? That seems less likely. Why, so they can try to compete with pharmaceutical corporations?

  266. Luke

    “Appreciating European culture does not show that you are a Nazi – quite the contrary, as the well-documented Nazi attacks on culture show.”

    Of course you are correct. There are many achievements of European culture that are worth admiring. However, many of the alt right dolts and white supremacists use “western civilization” and “European culture” as euphemisms for “white people,” just as they sometimes say zionist when context makes it apparent that they actually mean Jew. That does not, however, mean that everyone who uses those phrases means those things – context is important.

    For example when people say the US needs to “protect and preserve its White European heritage.”….I don’t think they are talking about classical music or Shakespeare. Not even Greek mythology, unless by Greek we mean Golden Dawn.

  267. Peter

    “Yet he got the idea for genocide from the Turkish massacre of white Armenians.”

    White is in the eye of the beholder. Ask some Russians in Russia – especially the right wing ones, as defined in that country – whether Armenians are white some time.

  268. Peter

    “Here’s an interesting recent news item, indicating there is as-yet non-lethal violence from the left in suppression of political thought”

    Was anyone arguing otherwise? I think every commenter above has acknowledged as much, as did the original article. Why does this need re-emphasis? The only counterpoint was that the violence on the other side actually is lethal, and often enough to constitute a trend as well as an explicit part of the fascist ideology and the racist quest for “racial holy war.”

  269. Peter

    “In any event, the price of oil must be increased, to avoid bankrupting a big chunk of the US fracking industry. If the US or Israel destroyed Iran’s oil export facilities, that would lead to a spike in oil prices, benefiting the US and Russia.”

    What kind of crackpot mercantilist broken windows shit is this?

    “Either way, they are making a political statement, in support or opposition to prohibition, or some combination thereof.”

    They don’t have to support or oppose prohibition, they will exploit it to make money and if it goes away they will step up other ways of making money. What’s their ideology? Well here, why don’t we ask them?

    https://genius.com/Bloods-and-crips-steady-dippin-lyrics

    “…You ain’t gon’ change a goddamn thang
    The plan is simple cause thangs don’t change
    When you’re gone (Shit ain’t changed Cuz!)
    We still be crippin’
    And makin’ cash money
    Steady dippin’…”

  270. Gene Berkman

    Mexican cartels do not control the marijuana trade in California. Doubtless they participate in it, but in the 48 years I have smoked marijuana, California home grown has replaced Mexican and even Colombian marijuana – California home grown has been dominant in this state since the late 1980s.

    Growers in Humboldt County did oppose Proposition 64, apparently fearing increased competition. And many medical marijuana dispensaries in California opposed Proposition 64, also fearing they would lose customers to recreational pot shops.

    My points in each issue is that yes, sometimes things happen as commenters have stated it, but there are often other trends, which sometimes are stronger.

    As for Nazis and Jihadists, I was referring to contemporary neo-Nazis, who do not necessarily model all their behavior on their antecedents in the Third Reich. In France, The National Front has built its growth on opposition to Muslim immigration, and the Alteranativ fuer Deutschland also gets support from opposition to Muslim immigration, and of course Donald Trump.

  271. Luke

    The difference is simple. Hitler had no issue with immigration from Muslim nations, because there was none to speak of. He did see Muslims as an ally against Jews as well as against the nations that had held the biggest chunks of European colonial possessions in majority Muslim nations – Britain and France. Modern white supremacists hate Muslim immigration into so-called “white countries” but ask them if they approve of say Hamas attacking Israel and those same exact people will generally tell you yes, absolutely. And they blame Jews for being behind the non-white immigration – including in large part Muslim – into so-called “white countries.” That was their point when they chanted “Jews will not replace us” in Charlottesville.

  272. Gene Berkman

    I would not advocate an alliance with Russia in order to defeat ISIS. I was just pointing out that Russia is not allied to the Jihadis, and in fact modern political Jihad got a big boost with the anti-Soviet jihad in Afghanistan.

    Russia is attacking ISIS in Syria, but also using the ISIS threat to justify attacking any movement opposed to the Assad regime. The bitter effect of this has been to drive other anti-Assad groups into tactical alliances with ISIS. And Russia won’t split with Iran – the alliance with Iran is a big part of why Russia fights in Syria.

    As for advocating higher oil prices in order to make sure that frackers profit – fracking has serious effects that are not good – including promoting earthquakes. I live in California and don’t want to do anything to promote earthquakes. And why would the US or Israel have any right – morally or under international law – to bomb Iranian refineries?

  273. George Phillies

    ” If the US or Israel destroyed Iran’s oil export facilities, ” the Middle East would blow up, at least figuratively. The Egyptians could simply remove their border controls with Gaza.

    Readers might wish to research what countries by Iranian oil. Hint: Two of them are nuclear powers. Both of them have significant navies, e.g., with aircraft carriers.

    The Chinese have several amusing retaliations, for example arms transshipments to the taliban. Modern ManPADS come immediately to mind. Modern aircraft and air defense systems to the iranians at special prices are an option. There is a long list.

  274. dL

    You have to remember that going to prison or dying early are part of that lifestyle and business model

    No, it’s not. Not the dying part. You are watching too much TV. Obviously, there is real violence at the Cartel territorial level, particularly in Mexico. Of course, that’s b/c the trade there has been militarized into a narco war by United States policy. And the narco gangs are heavily populated by ex military.

    However, the vast majority of people do not interact with the trade at that level. By far, the overriding concern for most is fraud, not violence. Stomped product. Intermediaries blatantly ripping you off. And just to be clear: I ain’t talking about the pot trade.

    Obviously, getting busted was part of the equation. The biggest part. But pro tip: mixing guns w/ drugs was a good way to ensure a stiff sentence if you got popped.

    In terms of dying early, the best predictor for that was cooking your drugs. I had a saying, “you cook ur food, not ur drugs.”

    But do a lot of meth or heroin dealers want those legalized? That seems less likely. Why, so they can try to compete with pharmaceutical corporations?

    Yes. That was more or less the sentiment. Keep in mind I’m not talking about extended philosophic debate on the subject(rare). This is trade where the less that is said, the better. Also keep in that a lot dealers are users or ex-users. And most of them had regular jobs and/or businesses.

    Think of the drug trade like a big social graph. You just don’t announce one day I’m going to be a drug dealer. You get into the trade because through circumstance you managed to ingratiate yourself into that social graph. And then you find you are able to use your “connectedness” to supply others in your graph for profit. Other than the narcs, people who are staunch drug warriors typically don’t wade far into that graph. And it would be rare for the amount of money we are usually talking about to sway someone over like. Very few people in the trade become kingpins.

    “The Baptists and the bootleggers” theory just doesn’t hold up. That theory, for example, would predict that the Darknet marketplaces would eventually become a lobbying arm for the continued illegality of drugs. Well, if you were to venture over to reddit forums for those markets, I assure you the vendor sentiment for the illegality of drugs is 0.

  275. dL

    Growers in Humboldt County did oppose Proposition 64, apparently fearing increased competition. And many medical marijuana dispensaries in California opposed Proposition 64, also fearing they would lose customers to recreational pot shops.

    yes, the better theory is “the baptists and the respectable businessmen.”

  276. dL

    What kind of crackpot mercantilist broken windows shit is this?

    just add it to the list of Bjornson’s crackpot notions…

  277. dL

    And God took off his fine mask, which he had heretofore worn in Ramsi’s presence, when the man’s life still lay in front of him, and finally showing his true hideous Devil’s face, leered at the terrorist and said, “Thank you for your support!”

    Nah…the devil is the good guy…

  278. Luke

    “No, it’s not. Not the dying part. You are watching too much TV. ”

    I don’t watch TV. My information in this regard is both first hand and subsequently researched. We were talking about street gangs. Bangin on Wax came out in 1993… see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloods_%26_Crips#Members Just for example of how people ended up.

    “Keep in mind I’m not talking about extended philosophic debate on the subject(rare). This is trade where the less that is said, the better. Also keep in that a lot dealers are users or ex-users. And most of them had regular jobs and/or businesses.”

    It may be a different socioeconomic background of people we are talking about. They do both exist.

    “You just don’t announce one day I’m going to be a drug dealer. ”

    That’s true. Around where I grew up you typically started at age 8-10 as a lookout.

    “Other than the narcs, people who are staunch drug warriors typically don’t wade far into that graph. ”

    I don’t think gang and cartel members tend to be staunch drug warriors. At the higher levels maybe because they realize that legal drugs would be a lot less profitable. At the bottom levels far less likely that they care. They are just trying to survive and prosper, not be political activists.

    “And it would be rare for the amount of money we are usually talking about to sway someone over like. Very few people in the trade become kingpins.”

    You don’t have to be a kingpin to realize you might be shit out of luck if the corner store took over selling your product. Maybe you are talking about people who deal on the side. A lot of people don’t have that luxury. Remember the way we got into this discussion tangent was Bjornson’s repeated shoe horning of street gangs into discussion about antifa and white supremacist violence. Not your stockbroker who buys coke by the ounce and deals it by the gram and eight ball to financial district buddies.

  279. dL

    I don’t watch TV. My information in this regard is both first hand and subsequently researched. We were talking about street gangs.

    I thought we were talking about drug dealers. Obviously, I don’t dispute the existence of street gangs. But I do dispute that the typical drug dealer is a member of the bloods or the crips.

    It may be a different socioeconomic background of people we are talking about. They do both exist.

    No, it runs the socioeconomic gambit pretty much.

    Not your stockbroker who buys coke by the ounce and deals it by the gram and eight ball to financial district buddies.

    Although that certainly is an example, that’s not what I was referring to.

    Remember the way we got into this discussion tangent was Bjornson’s repeated shoe horning of street gangs into discussion about antifa and white supremacist violence.

    Yes… Bjornson tried to lump in the drug trade w/ left-wing violence through a not so clever end-around of drug trade ==black street gangs===black nationalists

  280. dL

    But I do think that preserving European culture in America is important, and I sell literature in the main European languages along with European films, etc. Appreciating European culture does not show that you are a Nazi – quite the contrary, as the well-documented Nazi attacks on culture show.

    Well, I ascribe to cultural expropriation. So, for example, Western European classical music + African rhythm and blues==rock n roll. Certainly, the separate preservation of the culture classical music and the culture of rhythm and blues is an important thing to many.

    However, I categorically reject the term “preservation” if used as a dog whistle for cultural superiority, or a demand for insulating a singular culture from competition or a pretext for finding offense to cultural expropriation. And I will note that my rejection recognizes this type of cultural offense nonsense is practiced by both the right and the left.

  281. Luke

    Never mind “cultural appropriation,” it’s a morass that encompasses everything from intentional ridicule such as blackface to sincere homage such as whites with dreadlocks to completely inane things which are all of a sudden made into an issue such as Anglos getting drunk and wearing sombreros at a bar on Cinco de Mayo. All culture is appropriated if you go back far enough, unless you are one of those tribes that has been cut off from any contact with outsiders for longer than anyone remembers, and even then their customs had to come from somewhere.

    But when you phrase something like “preserve America’s White European heritage” it’s pretty obvious they mean ethnically/racially, not culturally. It may not be quite the same thing as “Jews will not replace us” but it’s the prerequisite course.

  282. Luke

    “I thought we were talking about drug dealers. Obviously, I don’t dispute the existence of street gangs. But I do dispute that the typical drug dealer is a member of the bloods or the crips.”

    The way we got into the discussion as you correctly traced it was “Bjornson tried to lump in the drug trade w/ left-wing violence through a not so clever end-around of drug trade ==black street gangs===black nationalists” … he then seemed to claim that black and Latino street gangs have a political agenda vis a vis drug laws, whatever that agenda is. Personally I don’t think they have much of an agenda other than making money, mutual protection, status, friendship/surrogate family, and getting laid. The things most people join any kind of gang for. I don’t see anything that makes them left wing or right wing. But if we have to classify them as one or the other I think one or two people pointed out that most of the people they kill, maim, rob and terrify are non-white so let’s classify them as right wing.

    For that matter are black nationalists really left wing? Their views on everything from gender roles to drugs in their community to “race mixing” to Jews are a lot more like white nationalist views on all those same topics than like some progressive leftist agenda.

    To sum up, none of the groups doing a lot of murder are really left wing but there are some (not all) antifa who engage in violence; however it’s not lethal violence like what the far right, various racial nationalists and jihadis engage in. If someone wants to throw in street gangs in there, I don’t think they belong in this discussion at all, but even if they do they are still not left wing so it’s not a counter to any of the above.

  283. Tony From Long Island

    Gene: ” . . . . But I do think that preserving European culture in America is important, . . . ”

    I must have forgotten that I live in Europe . . . oh way . . . I don’t.

  284. paulie

    European culture is an important part of ours. “White European Heritage” makes it a lot clearer that what is being referred to is race.

  285. Tony From Long Island

    I am a human being who lives in the United States.

    I do not live in, nor was I born in Europe.

    The only “heritage” I am concerned with is American heritage, which, happily, is very hard to describe because it is constantly changing as more and more diverse human beings add to it.

  286. Tony From Long Island

    Denouncing free speech is not suppressing it.

    Denouncing groups (which of course Trump is doing in an obvious disingenuous manner) is not suppressing them.

    Saying that white supremacists are douchebag scum is not suppressing them.

    Noting unfortunate about it at all.

  287. paulie

    S.J.Res.49 – A joint resolution condemning the violence and domestic terrorist attack that took place during events between August 11 and August 12, 2017, in Charlottesville, Virginia, recognizing the first responders who lost their lives while monitoring the events, offering deepest condolences to the families and friends of those individuals who were killed and deepest sympathies and support to those individuals who were injured by the violence, expressing support for the Charlottesville community, rejecting White nationalists, White supremacists, the Ku Klux Klan, neo-Nazis, and other hate groups, and urging the President and the President’s Cabinet to use all available resources to address the threats posed by those groups.

    That’s not a free speech issue. It has no teeth behind it. “Urging” the president to use all available resources to address threats by hate groups – and threats obviously do exist – isn’t forcing anyone to do anything whatsoever. It’s a feel good sop.

  288. Krzysztof Lesiak

    Intelligent and fascinating discussions like these is why IPR is the second best website on the interwebs. If I’m allowed at the LP Illinois state convention March 2nd-3rd, 2018 and granted a press pass, I hope you guys will consider publishing my report. I’m trying to get the ban on me from LP events listed. If someone has a direct line to Justin Tucker, the chair of the Chicago LP, please let him know. As you all know, I’ve had a history of mental health issues including some severe manic episodes…however I’m working on myself and I’m now free of all drugs, cigarettes alcohol as well as the world’s most evil and vile drug – pornography- and I will get baptized as a Jehovah Witness in the next few months.

    So yeah – I don’t want to cause any more problems and post unhinged things for the world to see. Should I get angry for whatever reason, I’m just going to turn off my PC.

  289. dL

    “White European Heritage” makes it a lot clearer that what is being referred to is race.

    Yes, that expression makes it obvious. But most of the white hoods got a little bit smarter w/ their exercise of language and started using terms like “western civilization” and/or “european heritage.”

  290. DJ

    A. Barton Hinkle column: The new Red Scare

    excerpt

    To begin with, there is the undeniable existence of a clear and present danger. The racist right’s identitarianism is antithetical to America’s most cherished values, and opposing the alt-right is the morally correct position to take. The threat must be countered at every turn.

    At the same time, the wholesome and necessary opposition to bigotry has started to metastasize into something less healthy.

    http://www.richmond.com/opinion/our-opinion/bart-hinkle/a-barton-hinkle-column-the-new-red-scare/article_2213fc8b-5d55-523a-bebb-568bdb45507a.html

  291. paulie

    All the more reason for libertarians to dissociate from him and other racist rightwingers who sometimes call themselves libertarians.

  292. Kevin S Bjornson

    George opined:
    ” If the US or Israel destroyed Iran’s oil export facilities, ” the Middle East would blow up, at least figuratively. The Egyptians could simply remove their border controls with Gaza.

    (K) I’m worried that Iran will get nukes and use them, and George is more concerned about illegal immigration into Israel? Though Trump is popular in Israel, I think Israelis are more concerned about a nuke exploding over Israel, devastating their power grid.

    If the US struck Iran (that’s more likely than Israel doing so, considering that the US has considerably more air and missile capability), why would Egypt retaliate against Israel?

    (G) Readers might wish to research what countries by Iranian oil. Hint: Two of them are nuclear powers. Both of them have significant navies, e.g., with aircraft carriers.

    (K) George, aircraft carriers are useful mainly against third-world powers. The US has the ability to take out aircraft carriers easily. Probably China could do that with US carriers, which is why most military experts don’t want the US to build any more of these white elephants.

    Russia has one aircraft carrier, which broke down near Syria, and is so primitive there have been many accidents. Which is why Russia no longer deploys it’s carrier. China also has one, an old Soviet-era they have refurbished.

    Russia would benefit financially with higher oil prices. Because they are a major producer of oil and oil sales are their major source of hard currency.

    The US invaded Iraq. Remember? What did Russia and China do in retaliation? Nothing. Taking out Iran’s oil export facilities would be a much smaller intervention. Iran is a much bigger threat than Iraq under Saddam.

    (G) The Chinese have several amusing retaliations, for example arms transshipments to the taliban. Modern ManPADS come immediately to mind. Modern aircraft and air defense systems to the iranians at special prices are an option. There is a long list.

    (K) The Chinese are unlikely to issue ManPADs to Islamic terrorists, China also has airliners and many Chinese nationals travel on other airlines. China is also battling an Islamist insurgency on it’s own territory.

    In any event, Bush Jr. should have let the airlines bankrupt (after 9/11); that would have enabled the new owners to invest $10 million per airplane to protect against missiles. Like what El Al has already done.

    Further, US troops should pull out of Afghanistan, because the people there do not want freedom. We are simply wasting American lives and money, throwing pearls before swine. Drones can keep the lawn mowed. We should not be supporting an Islamist government.

    Military affairs are matters of fact, and George’s conclusions cannot be deduced from the liberty principle.

  293. Kevin S Bjornson

    Amazing. When my friend, the late Sam Konkin (SEK3), advocated using black market sales to finance his self-fancied “Agorist” revolution, hardcore libertarians applauded. Conversely, when the mafia pays off government employees to protect their drugs trade, libertarians decry the political corruption. Now all of a sudden, when I point out the obvious (that prohibition is political), prohibition is now something that descends from a god in the sky, without political intervention?

    Favoring or opposing prohibition of drugs or prostitution is inherently political. Because prohibition is something the current government does. Obviously.

    I didn’t say the drugs trade is carried out solely by black gangs. Many others are involved, there are whites (Russians, Italians, etc), Asian, Hispanic, etc. gangs. Most are proto-governments, and in any event, their activities are inherently political (since they are made illegal by government, and of course, government is political).

    Many of the gangs are ethnic. Whether or not they are always ethnic nationalists, I don’t know, and that’s a separate issue. I simply maintain, actions that are pro-prohibition, anti-prohibition, or some combination, are inherently political. Because government is political. Which should be obvious.

  294. Kevin S Bjornson

    Trump can be criticized on rational grounds, but most of the hyperventilating hyperbole hales from psychological motivations. A TDS (not “total dissolved solids”, but “Trump Derangement Syndrome”).

    The man is tall, super-wealthy, and very successful in having sex with women. Starting when he was in military academy, where he brought a continuing stream of fine-looking young ladies to his dorm room. Then he ran beauty pageants. Now he is married to a much younger, beautiful ex-model. Perhaps this instead should be called “Trump envy”.

  295. Anthony Dlugos

    “All the more reason for libertarians to dissociate from him and other racist rightwingers who sometimes call themselves libertarians.”

    100% correct.

  296. George Phillies

    Bjornsen believes in the deduce superstition, so his opinions are not worth a great deal. I believe in Liberty, not meaningless philosophical word-trimming.

    The Chinese have built another aircraft carrier. Claims that aircraft carriers are easy to sink, well, there is some controversy on this point.

    The Chinese might or might not issue a few MANPADS to the Taliban. A few would not be a major issue. They would primarily be used against NATO aitrcraft trying to reach Kabul. Selling or giving large numbers to the Iranians, who are not terrorists, is another issue. Sending them to the Lebanese Hezbollah, who tend to be fairly careful about attacking military targets, is also possible.

    Why would the Egyptian government be perturbed by an attack on another Islamic nation? Because they are not idiots. They also realize that American governments are pathologically attached to the Israelis. Eliminating border controls on Gaza costs them less than nothing, benefits a million people, and creates issues.

  297. George Phillies

    “…very successful in having sex with women.” An argument that impresses Republican male halfwits.

  298. dL

    Amazing. When my friend, the late Sam Konkin (SEK3), advocated using black market sales to finance his self-fancied “Agorist” revolution, hardcore libertarians applauded. Conversely, when the mafia pays off government employees to protect their drugs trade, libertarians decry the political corruption. Now all of a sudden, when I point out the obvious (that prohibition is political), prohibition is now something that descends from a god in the sky, without political intervention?

    While I applaud agorism in principle, I unfortunately note that SEK3’s agorist class theory dialectic is not borne out in practice.

    The mafia pays off government officials to avoid prosecution, not to maintain the illegality of the trade.

    Favoring or opposing prohibition of drugs or prostitution is inherently political. Because prohibition is something the current government does. Obviously.

    By that standard, everything is political. Wiping your ass w/ a piece of regulated toilet paper apparently becomes a political statement.

  299. Anthony Dlugos

    “…very successful in having sex with women.” An argument that impresses Republican male halfwits.

    Yea, where did that stray thought praising Trump’s sex life come from?

  300. Luke

    “…very successful in having sex with women.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/02/world/the-tyrant-mao-as-told-by-his-doctor.html?pagewanted=all&mcubz=0

    Mao Tse-Tung was too.

    “Mao Zedong, China’s “Great Helmsman” whose brilliance, the official doctrine insists, led a vast nation to restored greatness, was actually an irritable, manipulative egotist incapable of human feeling who surrounded himself with sycophants and refused even to be treated for a sexually transmitted disease, though he knew he was spreading it to the numerous young women who shared his bed.”

    “Mao was a man who had no friends,” Dr. Li said. “He saw everybody as a subject, a slave. The mistake of those who got purged was to see themselves as equal to him. He wanted everybody to be subservient.”

    “Some of the descriptions in the book, minus the numerous details on Mao’s very active sex life, have appeared in other memoirs, especially those concerning Mao’s imperial way of life, his residence and swimming pool in Zhongnanhai, his chronic insomnia and the very odd hours that he kept, as well as the atmosphere of sycophancy that surrounded him. But nobody before has provided anything like the full, elaborately detailed portrait that Dr. Li presents in his book.”

    “Here’s a picture of the daily life of a man who has absolute power, and the fascinating thing is how absolute power sort of deranges the possessor of it, so that the boundary between fantasy and reality is obliterated because there’s nothing to check his will,” Professor Nathan said. “He was insulated in his own cocoon while everybody danced to his whims, and that has a lot to do with the tremendous disasters Mao wrought on the country as a whole because he was insulated from reality. His fantasies became reality.”

    “The most salacious elements of Mao’s career, in Dr. Li’s portrait, certainly involve Mao’s sexual life, which reached openly lascivious proportions in a country where sexual license was rigorously prohibited for almost everybody else.”

    Mao, Dr. Li says, used women for three purposes, the first and most important having to do with his pleasure. At Zhongnanhai, and wherever Mao traveled, Dr. Li writes, there were dance parties — this at a time when ballroom dancing in China was deemed bourgeois and actively discouraged. Young women from cultural troupes or from the Communist Party secretariat, women who Dr. Li says were “selected for their looks, their talent and their political reliability,” came to the dances and Mao commonly chose one or more of them to be entertained in his room, or in his special train, or in the guesthouses where he stayed when on one of his many “national inspection tours.”

    Dr. Li writes. “At the height of the Cultural Revolution in the 1960’s, he and Jiang Qing were sexually estranged, but Mao had no problems with the young women he brought to his bed — their numbers increasing and their average ages declining as Mao attempted to add years to his life according to the imperial formula.”

    Once, Dr. Li recalls, Mao sent him one of his sexual partners, a young woman who had come down with trichomonas vaginalis, which is sexually transmitted. Dr. Li treated her and several others who got the disease.

    “The young women were proud to be infected,” he writes. “The illness, transmitted by Mao, was a badge of honor, testimony to their close relations with the Chairman.”

    Mao himself showed no symptoms of the disease, though he was clearly a carrier of it, Dr. Li said. When Dr. Li suggested that he take some antibiotic to protect his sexual partners, Mao told Dr. Li: “If it’s not hurting me, then it doesn’t matter. Why are you getting so excited about it?”

    Sounds a lot like Trump.

    Or take Genghis Khan…he has more known descendents than any other man in human history so it sounds like he was very successful in having sex with women.

    Is that really the way freedom-lovers should judge virtue?

    Don’t criticize the likes of Mao, Trump and Genghis Khan lest you be accused of being jealous of how much they got laid?

    And that’s just one of Bjornson’s many howlers.

  301. dL

    The man is tall, super-wealthy, and very successful in having sex with women. Starting when he was in military academy, where he brought a continuing stream of fine-looking young ladies to his dorm room. Then he ran beauty pageants. Now he is married to a much younger, beautiful ex-model. Perhaps this instead should be called “Trump envy”.

    That statement says more about you, brah…lulz

  302. Luke

    “Yea, where did that stray thought praising Trump’s sex life come from?”

    From the diseased mind of a lunatic, especially given how many of Trump’s conquests both allegedly and admittedly come about through sexual harassment and in some cases perhaps even outright rape.

  303. Luke

    Bjornson continues his nonsense about gangs as well. His original failed attempt was to claim that there is more left wing political violence because black nationalists and somehow left wing (dubious) and black street gangs are black nationalists therefore also left wing. However, that dog didn’t make it off the porch much less hunt so he went on to, and continues to, insist that mobsters, cartels and gang bangers who peddle illegal drugs are “political” because politicians made those drugs illegal. But even if this was true, what does that have to do with comparing the political violence of the far right and far left? Are Cosa Nostra, Cartels, Crips, Gangster Disciples et al leftists? If so, what makes them such? That whole tangent is off track and headed nowhere.

  304. Luke

    “By that standard, everything is political. Wiping your ass w/ a piece of regulated toilet paper apparently becomes a political statement.”

    That might explain a lot of Bjornson’s comments, come to think of it.

  305. Luke

    Like these for example..

    “George is more concerned about illegal immigration into Israel? ”

    I think he meant terrorism, not immigration.

    “If the US struck Iran (that’s more likely than Israel doing so, considering that the US has considerably more air and missile capability), why would Egypt retaliate against Israel?”

    Because they would know that the US would be acting on behalf of Israel. How stupid do you think they are?

    “Russia would benefit financially with higher oil prices. Because they are a major producer of oil and oil sales are their major source of hard currency.”

    And why would we want to bolster Russia’s imperial ambitions at the expense of American consumers?

    Crackpot broken windows mercantilist crankery is libertarian…since when? “Wiping your ass w/ a piece of regulated toilet paper apparently becomes a political statement” is the best explanation I have seen for this nonsense so far.

  306. Luke

    “And why would the US or Israel have any right – morally or under international law – to bomb Iranian refineries?”

    I guess that question never enter’s Bjornson’s head. Neither apparently does the issue of how much Islamic terrorism against the US and US targets overseas may increase. He has never come up with any good answers as to how the US bombing and/or occupying majority Muslim nations will put a stop to global Islamic terrorism when those terrorists can organize just about anywhere, including in Western nations. Individual terrorist groups can have their leaders assassinated and their base of operations destroyed but new ones just spring up.

    “The Chinese have several amusing retaliations, ”

    I suppose they could call in the debt that the US owes them, although that would not be good for their trade with the US going forward.

  307. Luke

    “Soros and other wealth liberals DO fund a number of liberal/progressive organizations that have organizers who support and promote black bloc “Diversity of tactics”. ”

    Only a small percentage of those intermediary organizations’ funding comes from Soros and only a small portion of it goes to organizers of protests where Black Bloc shows up. The protest organizers are not the ones promoting violence and most people at their protests are peaceful. But it is a fact that Black Bloc shows up and does use non-lethal violence and property destruction. This is not the same thing as “Soros funds black bloc.” It’s even further from the crackpot assertion that Soros controls black bloc. If you want to prove the latter two assertions, especially the last one you will need much more compelling evidence than anything given here thus far.

  308. Chuck Moulton

    Kevin S Bjornson wrote:

    Self-identified counter-Jihadist neo-nazis tend to be
    —outliers or individuals not connected with the larger neo-Nazi movement,
    –or these could be considered as insincere efforts to exploit current trends for opportunistic reasons,
    –or they maybe fascists but not neo-nazi.

    No true Scottsman…

  309. Luke

    White supremacists tend to be pro-Muslim when it comes to the “Muslim part of the world” particularly in relation to opposing Israel. They are a lot less pro-Muslim when Muslims move to Europe, the US, Australia, Canada, etc. It is at that point that they sound just like “counterjihadists.” In Hitler’s time there was no major immigration of Muslims into “Christian” “White” countries so of course he could ally with them, and in the same way white supremacists ally with them when it comes to attacking Israel and Jews today while simultaneously being against them in other places and contexts. Why would anyone here think there is any contradiction in the same people holding both positions?

  310. George Phillies

    ” call in the debt that the US owes them”

    United States bonds and Treasury Bills are not callable. Period. Full Stop.

    And if they were callable, which they are not, they are payable *in dollars*, which curiously we are able to print as needed. Note that there would be no inflationary effect, because the $3 trillion of bonds (totally fluid) in Chinese hands would simply be replaced by an equal dollar amount of Benjamins and Tubmans, so the fluid money supply in circulation would not be changed.

    the Chinese could try selling these on the open market, but that would tend to crash the price, to the great profit of other people. Also, the Chinese would then find it very difficult to make payments in dollars, because they would not have dollars with which to pay. As it stands, Chinese dollar holdings in recent years have been falling fairly quickly.

  311. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    There have been a lot of articles about how much it cost Berkeley to pay for right wing Free Speech week. At least $300,000, as much as $600,000. Interesting quick summary in NY POST:

    From the right: Yes, Shapiro Spoke — But Antifa Won
    When conservative commentator Ben Shapiro was allowed to appear last week at UC-Berkeley in the face of violent left-wing threats, it seemed like a victory for free speech. But Marc Thiessen at Fox News suggests that appearances are deceiving, because the school felt obliged to spend $600,000 on super-tight security for the event. And “that is why Antifa won: Without breaking a single window, or smashing a single head . . . these radical leftists succeeded in imposing a $600,000 tax on conservative speech.” Moreover, the sponsoring group had to pay part of those costs — something “every college conservative group will [now] have to factor” into its budget for inviting speakers to campus.

    Let’s hope they don’t go after libertarians. We can’t afford to pay for security…

  312. Luke

    “Let’s hope they don’t go after libertarians. We can’t afford to pay for security…”

    The more libertarians associate with alt right fascists the more likely that becomes. Someone mentioned that they plan to protest/riot against the LP national convention in New Orleans next year.. does anyone here know anything more about that? I’ve only seen one quick comment exchange. I think it was on another thread but it may have been this one.

  313. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    I agree with you there, Paulie, and have been giving them hell myself.

    This is the July 3rd “riot” post by Ryan Ramsey about moving LPCON from NOLA to Vicksburg, in order t NOT diss the confederacy or whatever. It got little support even from his own crew. And then he had all his misfortunes. Haven’t heard about this since. I’m sure he’ll be pulling some number. https://libertarianpartyofbradfordcountyfl.org/2017/07/03/from-nola-to-vicksburg-the-libertarian-party-must-stand-on-principle/

    His personal page was banned from facebook but he still has Ryan RamseyTwo to keep on top of him. And then there is this strategy website: https://libertarianheathen.com/ I think it used to have NOLA thing; or maybe it was on of his OTHER sites…

  314. paulie

    Well, it’s not surprisingly if it’s those same clowns. Same thing they pulled in Harrisburg and threatened but failed to produce at the most recent LPF convention.

  315. dL

    There have been a lot of articles about how much it cost Berkeley to pay for right wing Free Speech week. At least $300,000, as much as $600,000. Interesting quick summary in NY POST:

    Well, you know Carol, when these people are calling for the organization of death squads to exterminate immigrants, what else would you expect?

    [Ann Coulter suggests death squads for immigrants who have ruined America]
    http://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/ann-coulter-suggests-death-squads-for-the-people-who-ruined-america-with-immigration/

  316. Anthony Dlugos

    jeez, louise. I always thought she was just a master troller.

    Now I think she is generally coming unglued.

  317. dL

    jeez, louise. I always thought she was just a master troller.

    Now I think she is generally coming unglued.

    I verified her statements before linking…she has since walked back the “death squad” statement, claiming she meant politicians, not immigrants. But that would mean death squads to take out Trump and Schumer. Well, in that event, I wish her well in her kickstarter campaign to fund the Coulter Death to Trump Brigade…Hell, they would cheer her at Berkeley.

  318. Kevin S Bjornson

    Kevin S Bjornson wrote:

    Self-identified counter-Jihadist neo-nazis tend to be
    —outliers or individuals not connected with the larger neo-Nazi movement,
    –or these could be considered as insincere efforts to exploit current trends for opportunistic reasons,
    –or they maybe fascists but not neo-nazi.
    (CM) No true Scottsman…

    (K) Words have meanings, and although somewhat fluid, can’t mean anything that could be wished.

    For instance, to know what “Muslim” means, we look at Islamic texts and historical examples, primarily the example of Muhammed it’s founder. To know what “Nazi” means, we look at Mein Kampf and what Hitler believed and how he acted.

    Hitler aligned himself with Muslims, such as the grand mufti of Jerusalem; and made statements favorable to Islam. We see many examples of Nazi war criminals fleeing to Islamist regimes, such as Egypt and Syria, to train them in torture and intelligence techniques.

    Many decades later, some people who identify as Nazis or neo-Nazis, try to change the narrative and try to make Muslims as the enemy of their version of Nazism.

    That would be like me, identifying as a Chinaman. Or me writing science fiction novels, radically different from those of L. Ron Hubbard, and then claiming that my writings are the “true” Dianetics.

    Or me writing writing about Austrian economics, and then claiming that as the “true” Marxism.

    Sure, some people do try to change meanings of words and use those words to describe something quite different from the original meaning. Language does evolve, but not that radically or quickly.

    We should face the fact that Islam and Nazism are traditional allies, and that self-identified Nazis who disagree are not Nazis in the true and original meaning of that term. Such “Nazis” tend to be ignorant and very confused.

    Concerning the “True Scotsman” fallacy. We know who Scotsmen are, because they have citizenship in Scotland and/or are descended from citizens of Scotland. There is no similar citizenship for belonging to Nazism. Nor is the alliance between Nazis and Islamists a minor peripheral issue, comparable to most Scotsmen preferring hagas.

  319. Kevin S Bjornson

    Not everything is political. That which pertains directly to government or government laws, is political.

    I know this from first-hand experience. The head of a family once took me into his office and showed me a photo of himself with Hubert Humphrey. He and his allied families paid off police and council members and in the process used a law they secretly promoted to eliminate competition. The services they provided were highly regulated and in many cases, operated in a grey area of the law. Eventually this man was prosecuted for going too far, and his former building is now a police station.

    The most famous example, was how the mob got JFK elected by rigging ballots in Chicago. Then, when RFK went after them like a berserker, helped gun down them both.

    These families were organized according to ethnic lines, Russian, French, Irish, Italian, black, etc. Obviously in the modern era, ethnic ties have loosened and they do tend to cooperate with other ethnic groups.

    Some gangs could deal in outright prohibited substances or services, and either way, silver or lead, make a political statement. When government officials are paid off or gunned down, inherently government is involved; and of course, gov’t is (by definition) political.

  320. Luke

    Yeah, yeah, we know. But how does it relate to the original article? As far as I can see it doesn’t. What political statement are they making? Are they left wing? Right wing? You never answered or explained this.

  321. Luke

    It’s long since become tiresome and repetitive, but Bjornson keeps making the same mistake as those arguing against him regarding nazis and Muslims. That is, in Hitler’s time there were no significant numbers of Muslims in predominantly White Christian countries. Then as now, nazis support(ed) Muslims vis a vis Jews in the middle east. Then as now, they support Muslims if and when they attack Jews anywhere in the world. The difference is now there has been significant Muslim immigration into Europe and to a lesser extent the US, Canada, Australia etc. Muslim populations from the Caucasus and Central Asia have moved into urban areas throughout Russia. Most of these Muslims are not what white supremacists consider to be white. Therefore, they have developed an oppositional attitude against Muslims in “white” countries. It hasn’t changed their preference for Muslims over Jews though, and they blame the Jews for a conspiracy to bring Muslims into Europe etc.

    Again, why is anyone having a hard time understanding this?

  322. Kevin S Bjornson

    Luke, today’s influx of Muslims into Europe is not the first time this has happened. Previous incursions employed military tactics, because then, Muslims were at near parity with neo-Christian Europeans.

    Hitler said this about the famous Battle at Tours, he wished that Islam had won:

    “Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers […] then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world.”

    “You see, it’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?”

    (K) Hitler still believed Arabs to be inferior, because they weren’t fully white, much less nordic. But he admired their religion. He believed that their racial inferiority would eventually spell their defeat in the colder climate of northern Europe, but he wished that Germans had converted to Islam. His alliance with Islam was ideological, his alliance with Muslim Arabs was opportunistic, much like his alliance with Italy and Japan.

    Today’s neo-Nazis do not object to the influx of Muslims, but rather to the influx of non-Nordics including Arabs or Persians. MSM plays into this narrative, describing criminal actions by Muslims in Europe as criminal actions by “Asians” in Europe.

    There is a difference between race and religion. Not all Arabs or Persians are Muslim, and not all Muslims are Arabs or Persians.

    How does this relate to the original post? The OP was about white nationalism. I point out, opposition to a Muslim influx does not spring from white nationalism, but is opposition to a hostile and threatening culture.

    There are other types of ethnic nationalism, such as ethnic gangs, which perhaps don’t go so far as to want a nation to be entirely of one ethnicity, but which favor the suppression or exploitation of other ethnic groups through political means.

  323. Luke

    You mixed up comments. The question about relatability to the original point was regarding the alleged political agenda of gangs. If we are trying to compare the lethality of the far right and far left, how does classifying street gangs as political or not help us?

    And as far as Muslims in Europe, it’s not just Arabs and Persians, Afghanis, Pakistanis, Indian Muslims, and many others are also included. In Russia it is Chechens and many others. Hitler may have waxed philosophical about what might have been had Europe converted to Islam over a thousand years earlier, but he did not convert to Islam himself, nor did he encourage any mass conversion to Islam in Europe, and he did not have a practical reality of millions of Muslims or people from majority Muslim nations moving into areas he controlled either. It’s not surprising that his followers today, as well as other white supremacists, are not fond of Muslims in “their” countries.

    Is this hostility primarily based on race or religion? Probably some of both, as it is xenophobic in nature. Does it have a white nationalist component? Yes, absolutely.

  324. dL

    Again, why is anyone having a hard time understanding this?

    Other than the usual suspects, no one is. Inevitably, when comments are on the order of a factor of 10^2, the original point of the post gets buried.

    The original point is this: libertarians should take an unconditional hard stand against the alt-right and its bedfellows w/o qualification, a la devoting an equal amount of time to condemning antifa.

    For the lack of a better name at the moment, one can call this the “Frankel Rule.”

    A number of libertarian publications are guilty of violating the Frankel Rule. It’s almost as if they operate by an equal time “fairness doctrine” when attacking the right. Every criticism of the right must be accompanied by an equal time(or more) devoted to criticizing the “dangerous left.”

    Hitherto, the LP, at least at the top, has not violated the Frankel Rule wrt to the alt-right.

    Unofficially, I added an addendum to the Frankel Rule: American libertarianism by and large suffers from a “leftist derangement syndrome.” And I explained what that meant in an earlier comment.


    libertarians are largely aligned with the intellectual culture of the right. Libertarianism and conservatism are viewed as natural cousins. Something like the Trump or the alt-right is viewed merely as a deviation from “principled conservatism.” Whereas something like antifa or PC campus speech culture is what the left IS. Any libertarian critique of the left, merited or not, merely borrows from the right-wing talking points. Even those who are critical and/or have been critical of the alt-right are almost obligated to make a moral equivalence between the alt-right and antifa.

  325. George Phillies

    “…The man is tall, super-wealthy, and very successful in having sex with women. …”

    By this standard, America’s most praiseworthy Presidents would clearly include William Clinton and Lyndon Johnson. Clinton multiplied his wealth many times. Johnson gave his wife a TV station.

  326. paulie

    It would make Berlusconi a praiseworthy leader in Europe (other than the tall part, anyway. Do they have to be tall to be great leaders by Bjornson’s formula? What if they have small hands?)

    Putin would have to be the ultimate world leader today, as he has pilfered an estimate $200 billion out of the impoverished Russian economy for himself and his family, and trillions more for his cronies. He has stiff competition from various fabulously wealthy Arab oil sheiks who have whole harems full of women. Some of them may have issues with that “tall” criteria though.

    Looking back historically, aside from the previous examples of Mao and Genghis Khan, there are many other cases to consider, such as Caligula. Trump is certainly among his peers there.

  327. V for Vagina

    Wilt Chamberlain was way taller, and probably had more women than Trump too. Probably not as rich but then he wasn’t born into money, unlike the Donald. What does any of this juvenile shit have to do with Trump being a racist, fascist, authoritarian con artist? Is being tall and rich some kind of excuse for that?

  328. V for Vagina

    So you are saying that Trump’s poo-flinging tantrums act to impress his submissive beta primates such as Bjornson?

  329. paulie

    In general, without specific reference to Bjornson who she most likely has never heard of, that is what chimpanzee expert Jane Goodall is saying. As for Bjornson, he is best ignored altogether.

  330. Krzysztof Lesiak

    Wilt Chamberlain was way taller, and probably had more women than Trump too. Probably not as rich but then he wasn’t born into money, unlike the Donald. What does any of this juvenile shit have to do with Trump being a racist, fascist, authoritarian con artist? Is being tall and rich some kind of excuse for that?

    Oh yeah? So 8.5 million of Jehovah Witnesses are also racist, fascist, authoritarian con artists? The girls are ALL virgins until marriage, fornication is strictly forbidden (if you do it and aren’t regretful for your deed you will get disfellowshipped from your congregation), no one uses drugs, no one watches satanic Illuminati evil pornography, no one smokes ciggarrettes, and alchohol is only allowed in moderation.

    Yeah, I guess we have to be like Putin (who listened to the Orthodox church and banned Russia’s 175,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses) and ban the 1,231,609 active Jehovah’s Witness publishers in the United States. Yeah, these people are fascists, racist, homophones, xenophobes, they are antisemitic and LITERALLY Hitler. JEHOVAH”S FALSE WITNESSES: Worse than ISIS!!!!

    Max Dickstein wrote the following 7 hours ago in a email: “Jehovah’s Witnesses girls: The world’s most sexy, pure, innocent, traditionalist, intelligent and loyal women – Join JW.org and become part of the world’s LARGEST dating organization. Membership is FREE.”

  331. paulie

    Can anyone please explain WTF Lesiak is babbling about?

    I doubt it. My guess is he is off his meds again. Makes Bjornson seem rational by comparison, but that’s setting the bar very low.

  332. Krzysztof Lesiak

    Can an explain what you are talking about?

    We can literally talk for hours, but I have to go see a Polish politician coming to a church in Chicago later today. So I don’t have literally ALL day.

  333. Krzysztof Lesiak

    In terms of Jehovah’s Witnesses, there is a video of Trump driving into a Kingdom Hall in Brooklyn, and there is all this article:

    http://www.snopes.com/jehovahs-witness-russia-trump-asylum/

    WASHINGTON, United States – President Donald Trump and Vice President, Mike Pence made a surprise appearance at a kingdom hall of Jehovah’s witnesses in Washington on Thursday, during the Christian Life and Ministry programme.

    http://starconnectmedia.com/russias-ban-trump-pence-attend-meeting-of-jehovahs-witness-in-us/

  334. V for Vagina

    Chris, are you bored again? Maybe you should concentrate on getting laid instead (no, that’s not an offer, LOL). Or maybe moving to Poland. Jehovahs Witnesses believe electoral politics are wicked and evil, so coming here to IPR is no better for your soul than drugs or porn. Go say a thousand hail marys while flagellating yourself, or whatever it is Jehovahs Witnesses do when they have sinned.

    Gina.

  335. Krzysztof Lesiak

    Jesus Christ man, oh wait sorry I meant Donald Trump, they’re one in the same person. Trump is LITERALLY the second coming of Jesus Christ.

    I do plan on moving back to Poland at some point. Right now, I’m going to watch some Alex Jones and Mark Dice on YouTube. Peace out dude.

  336. V for Vagina

    No, you have it backwards, Trump is literally the Antichrist. Why delay your move to Poland? You should hurry up and move. I can see why you are having such a hard time getting laid. I wouldn’t want you anywhere near my vag either. Have fun jerking off to Mark Dice, David Icke or whoever. Piss off, dud.

    Gina.

  337. Krzysztof Lesiak

    This feels like a real life trip on research chemicals, except I’m completely sober right now. LMAO

  338. V for Vagina

    Yes, it’s called a psychotic break. You either didn’t take your antipsychotic medication or haven’t been to the doctor yet. You should go. All kidding aside, seriously, you should.

  339. Krzysztof Lesiak

    My favorite psychiatrist was a Polish lady named Dr. Twardowski. However, she does not accept individuals over the age of 18 into her individual one on one therapy sessions. The last time this psychiatrist treated me was in December 2016, when people are freaking about Trump’s election LOL. During that time I met some very interesting and cool people. I was held against my will at Chicago Behavioral Hospital from November 28th, 2016 to December 14, 2016. On December 15th, 2016 I went back to my Polish Kingdom Hall in the northwest suburb of Chicago containing 75,000 inhabitants called Palatine.

    These days, I get all of my psychological and therapeutical advice during the lectures at my Kingdom Hall meetings. So you could say that I have an appointed with a psychiatrist anointed by Jehovah God himself at 239 Illinois Avenue, Palatine Illinois tomorrow, Sunday the 24th of September 2017.

    BY THE WAY: Tomorrow is election day in Germany. I am OFFICIALLY endorsing the Green Party of Germany because they are pacifists and they will disband the Germany military. AfD seems to be following in the footsteps of Hilter so that’s BAD NEWS for the Republic of Poland. SAD!

  340. V for Vagina

    “The last time this psychiatrist treated me was in December 2016”

    You are long overdue. It’s becoming very obvious. Sorry for the lay quasi-diagnosis but you really do need to be seen by a competent trained specialist, badly, and it shows. If you are not on medication or not taking it you almost certainly need to be. Do Jehovahs Witnesses do that wacky prayer healing crap and not allow you to go see real doctors? I know there’s a church that does that but I thought it was a different one.

    BTW I just got off the phone with Alex Jones and he is mad at you for not watching his video yet. To make up for it he wants you to order a bottle of his DNA Force from the Alex Jones online store.

  341. Chuck Moulton

    Why is IPR a magnet for schitzos off their meds who like complaining about how women aren’t attracted to batshit crazy people and ranting about the cult they just joined?

  342. Krzysztof Lesiak

    Chuck, I’m going to get married to a virgin and have sex with her. You know, the traditional, conservative, family based God like way.

    How old are you Chuck? How old were you when you had your first girlfriend? I remember when we were friends on Facebook years ago you posted about how women were never attracted to you no matter how you tried. You definitively did not sound like Hugh Hefner or Donald Trump, to put it mildy.

    My first and only girlfriend was in 7th grade, Andrea from Guatemala. She was a 10. The next two girls I went for, both from Eastern Europe (Poland and Lithuania) were likewise across the board 10s.

    When I get married to a Jehovah Witness girl the girl in question is a 10 and the marriage will happen by age 23 at the latest (I’m 21 years old currently).

    Steven Crowder got married at age 24 or 25 – Crowder wrote an article for Fox News explaining that the best way to go in life is to remain sexually abstinent until marriage – The Bible way, The Jesus Christ way.

    Were you “grabbing all the galls by the pussy” in high school, or are you the same guy as Steve Carrell in his hit movie ” The 40 year old Buddhist monk ” working at an electronics store.” The movie came out in 2005 and raked in 177$ million. It has an 85% rating on Rotten Tomatoes.

    https: // en. wikipedia .org/wiki/The_40-Year-Old_Virgin

  343. paulie

    Why is IPR a magnet for schitzos off their meds who like complaining about how women aren’t attracted to batshit crazy people and ranting about the cult they just joined?

    Virtually zero entry barrier. What else would you expect?

  344. Cody Quirk

    Oh, also got this fb message from Chris a few days ago-

    “You’re alright dude. You’re a good guy. good luck in your life both personal and career wise. I’m far right Polish white nationalist so I’m going to go ahead and block you now so you’re not associated with me in any way. I have the official American Freedom Party endorsement for the April 2019 trustee race – chrislesiak.wordpress.com/about —-going to get baptized as a Jehovah Witness I’m gong to marry this Polish blonde virgin 21 yo named Aneta and I’m going to fuck her have sex lol haha. Peace Cody may Jehovah Bless you.”

  345. Krzysztof Lesiak

    I’ve LOVED The Onion since at least 2008 when my dad introduced it to me somewhere in Iowa – it was the biggining of Iowa Caucus season. The Onion is now literally America’s Finest News Source, no joke:

    WASHINGTON—Saying it was the first step in gaining the confidence and stability he would need to reintegrate back into society, residents and staff on Thursday welcomed former White House strategist Sebastian Gorka to New Beginnings, a halfway house for fired Trump administration members.

    The 20-bed residential treatment center, which opened earlier this year in the capital’s quiet Woodland Park neighborhood, reportedly offers round-the-clock care to traumatized former West Wing insiders, providing life skills training, wellness workshops, and psychotherapy under the guidance of licensed social workers.

    “It’s true these guys got wrapped up with the wrong people, but I firmly believe everyone has value no matter badly they’ve screwed up their lives.”

    “At New Beginnings, Mr. Gorka will have the chance to make a fresh start—a chance to reflect on his past actions and hopefully emerge a more responsible citizen,” said director Ross Woodley, who noted that besides housing, the facility offered counseling on issues from anger management to speaking with special prosecutors. “No doubt he’s been through a lot, but he’ll be joining a community of other ex-Trump strategists, senior advisors, and communications personnel who are all going through the same process.”

    READ THE REST HERE:

    http://www.theonion.com/article/sebastian-gorka-welcomed-halfway-house-fired-trump-57015

    AND SOUTH PARK IS BACK : Trey Parker and Matt Stone KILLED IT with these last two episdoes – can’t wait to see what happens in episode 3 of season 21 – damn numerology lol

    I like to think of Jehovah’s Witnesses as 34th degree Freemasons – I also keep using the all the girls are Irina Shayk caliber virgins LOLZ.

    I can’t fcking wait for the 2020 presidential election and seeing who the CP LP and GP nominate. MY AFP supports TRUMPSTER all the way.

    I can’t believe A WHITE NATIONALIST HOMOPHOBIC ANTI SEMETIC NEO NAZI CHRISTIAN EXTREMIST NEO FASCIST HITLERIAN ANTICHRIST is the leader of the free world. OH MY GOD!! How the hell did we let this happen?!?!>!

  346. V for Vagina

    I can see why Chris would want a virgin wife, as he may not want her to have anything to compare him to but then again chances are he is a virgin himself. Oh well, good luck with all that. Mental illness is a horrible thing so I am not going to make any more digs at the poor boy. He has a long hard road ahead of him.

    Trump isn’t a “Christian Extremist” btw … LOL. He may go to church every once in a while like a good little hypocrite but he basically embodies all of the deadly sins and revels in them. He is literally the opposite of everything Christianity preaches. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFjzFa7tgvg @ 3:15-4:00 I think they have him pegged. If you get a chance watch the whole thing.

    Another one that has Trump dead to rights is Back to the Future (Biff Tannen was based on Donald Trump, according to the screenwriters).

  347. V for Vagina

    “How the hell did we let this happen?!?!>!”

    Well, the Democrats and many independents believe it was some combination of Russian dirty tricks and whatever weird crap Comey was up to. Many people who are not Democrats believe it was because Hillary Clinton is a singularly terrible candidate who wouldn’t have made it past the primaries without cheating brazenly, and didn’t help herself any by getting caught doing it. Many people have theorized that Trump tapped into seething undercurrents of prejudice, xenophobia and racial, sexual, cultural and economic anxiety. I think all of these people are correct to some extent, but the real answer was provided long before Trump was even born by his spiritual predecessor, PT Barnum – no one ever lost money (or elections) by underestimating the intelligence of the American people.

  348. V for Vagina

    “….is the leader of the free world.”

    He has abdicated that role. At this point, if the free would has a leader, most observers believe it is most likely Angela Merkel.

  349. V for Vagina

    Lastly, didn’t IPR pass a rule against all-caps not that long ago? I seem to recall a big hub-bub about that. Why isn’t it being applied to Lesiak, and what is it about alt right fanboys and their inability to stay off the caps lock key?

  350. Daemon Sims

    When it comes to Polish girls, I’m quite partial to Ewa Sonnet ( Beata Kornelia D?browska). I don’t know if she’s married or a virgin, but maybe Chris could pursue her.

  351. V for Vagina

    She poses topless. I highly doubt she is a virgin. It is almost certain that she is a slut, and would laugh at Chris mercilessly on their wedding night.

    But, if they did get married, this song should be played at their wedding….

    “The Art of the Deal” Theme Song
    Kenny Loggins

    The Art of the Deal

    Some guys write poems and beautiful words
    Some guys write songs about flowers and birds
    But that ain’t who I am, that kinda crap ain’t me

    No no

    Some guys paint sculptures in plastic and steel
    Some losers paint paintings abstract and surreal
    But I don’t get it, that kinda crap ain’t me
    Can’t you see

    Oh, the only art I’ve ever been able to feel
    Is the only art that matters
    The Art of the Deal

    There’s nothing better or quite as sublime
    As signing your name on the dotted line
    That’s all the beauty I need in my life
    That and a big-titty Eastern Bloc wife

    Oh, the only art I’ve ever been able to feel
    The only art that gets me off
    Is the Deal

    Some people make TV shows
    Like Golden Girls or Diff’rent Strokes
    Some people make We are the Worlds
    And give American money to some African folks

    [But that ain’t me]
    I’m on my own
    [But that ain’t me]
    I shall over-comb
    That ain’t the man you see shaking your hand

    And oh
    The only art that matters ain’t Picasso or Pollock
    It ain’t Warhol, Van Gogh, Rothko
    Dali, Mondrian, or Ron Popeil
    The only art that matters is the one that makes me squeal

    So forget those other losers
    It’s the Art of the Deal
    The Art of the Deal
    [Art of the Deal]

    Performed in the movie linked a few comments back, as the theme song… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFjzFa7tgvg

  352. Daemon Sims

    Ewa is a singer, not just a “big titty eastern bloc” woman

    Check out her popular 2005 single: … i R’n’B

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk9P1RbekwM

    English translation:


    Yeah, Yeah, R&B
    Play, play, I won’t stop
    This is R&B
    I must dance until morning
    Rhythm is in R&B
    It’s like rocking of the heart
    Yeah, Yeah, your turn now
    Nothing will be left of us

    I’ll give my body, even my soul
    I must love someone after all
    I am alone on the dance floor with R&B
    Later on, you may forgive me
    I’ve betrayed you ’cause of desolation
    I was alone on the dance floor with R&B

    These are my dreams
    Night is my girl friend
    Days go slowly
    My entire future I already know
    Record with R&B
    That explains everything to me
    Leave, even you
    Love means nothing

    I’ll give my body, even my soul
    I must love someone after all
    I am alone on the dance floor with R&B
    Later, you may forgive me
    I’ve betrayed you ’cause of desolation
    I was alone on the dance floor with R&B

  353. V for Vagina

    Well, those are certainly profound lyrics, but I think Kenny was singing about a couple of Donald Trump’s wives. I suppose it would describe Ms. Sonnet as well though. But seriously, she’s a porn chick… she would just laugh and laugh at Chris all night long. Even worse, she might pull out the strap-on, turn the tables on him and show him how it should be done. I’m not going to sink to the level of speculating whether he might discover he likes that. That would be beneath the dignity of this forum.

  354. Krzysztof Lesiak

    Meh, not worth checking out. Jula, that’s what up. She comes from my hometown in Lomza, Poland, population 63,000 which has a ton of white nationalist, neo Nazi as was a TUPAC graffiti everywhere WTF !!!!>??? She was born in 1991. Here are just three of her many spectacular love ballads:

    Jula – Za ka?dym razem (Official Video) ——26,298,516 video views

    Jula – Nie?miertelni (Oficjalny Teledysk) ——— 4,348,456 video views

    Jula – Milion s?ów [Official Music Video] —————13 530 804 wy?wietlenia

    Here’s a great new song from Vinnie Paz:

    Vinnie Paz feat. Eamon “The Ghost I Used to Be” – Official Video————- 728 602 video views

  355. Cody Quirk

    “Meh, not worth checking out. Jula, that’s what up.”

    And both are far, farrrrrrrrrrrrr out of your league.

  356. Daemon Sims

    Ewa is not a porn chick. There are no images or videos of her pussy online. There are no images or videos of her pleasuring men. Just because she appears topless should not make any difference. Breasts are not sexual parts.

  357. Thane Eichenauer

    Daemon Sims> Breasts are not sexual parts.

    Yes, the sky is green, up is down, war is peace, light beer tastes just as good and Hillary Clinton was elected in 2016. Yup.

  358. V for Vagina

    “Ewa is not a porn chick. There are no images or videos of her pussy online. ”

    I’m not going to link pornography here, but there are.

    “Breasts are not sexual parts.”

    In which universe? Mine certainly are.

    “Also, just because one appears topless does not mean one is not a virgin.”

    She’s a 32 year old woman who has been posing for erotica for 14 years. The chances that she is a virgin are practically non-existent. It’s more likely that she has had more men than Lesiak has had masturbation sessions in his lifetime thus far. Even if she is mostly a lesbian like me.

    Shall we get this back on track already? Is Ms. Sonnet a political activist of some sort? Or is Daemon Sims just the latest Nathan N manifestation here?

  359. paulie

    Shall we get this back on track already?

    Probably too late at this point.

    Is Ms. Sonnet a political activist of some sort?

    Dunno, but that’s why specialization (division of labor) is such a wonderful thing. I am about as interested in her political views (if any) as I am in, say, Hillary Clinton’s or Angela Merkel’s tits (that is, less than zero). But with the wonderful invention of specialization, each person can focus on what they are good at. Sonnet can provide softcore porn and pop songs while HC, Merkel et al can provide political BS to keep us riled up. You wouldn’t want your barber guiding landing airplanes either, unless he happens to be an air traffic controller as well, and in most cases it would be a bad idea to let an air traffic controller cut your hair.

    Or is Daemon Sims just the latest Nathan N manifestation here?

    Probably.

  360. paulie

    Lastly, didn’t IPR pass a rule against all-caps not that long ago? I seem to recall a big hub-bub about that.

    Yes.

    Why isn’t it being applied to Lesiak,

    Warning first. Consider this to be that warning.

    and what is it about alt right fanboys and their inability to stay off the caps lock key?

    Dunno. My best guess is degenerative brain disease.

  361. V for Vagina

    I can’t remember if this knee-slapper from Bjornsen was addressed earlier:

    “Soros and others finance them, and the puppetmasters are not stupid, they realize that too much violence will discredit the cause, so they attach strings to their largesse, which is funneled through reliable channels that can be counted on to control their thugs. And, because they want martyrs, they don’t encourage their stooges to wear protective padding. ”

    Can anyone making this claim back this up? Again, only a very small part of the funding of organizations that set up the protests at which black bloc shows up comes from Soros, and indirectly at that. And most of the people who show at these protests are peaceful. The black bloc does show up as well but where is the evidence that the protest organizers want them there, much less that they fund them or have any control over them? I see several people here, and many elsewhere, repeating various versions of this claim, but when pressed for evidence all they come up with is that same old stuff about a small portion of the funding of e.g. Refuse Fascism coming from intermediary funds that get a small part of their funding from Soros. That doesn’t even begin to answer the question I am asking.

    “While neo-nazis are fewer in number, and are largely self-funded, and armor themselves.”

    They too receive funding from a number of sources, including the Putin regime.

  362. V for Vagina

    “Clearly, there was violence on many sides, in approximately equal proportion. Impossible to statistically identity the proportion from hospital statistics.”

    Yes, there was equal violence on both (or many?) sides yet by either 35-0 or 34-1 all the hospitalizations were on one side as well as the death, and stemming from a variety of separate incidents. How does that “new math” work?

    As mentioned earlier, the tactic of using a car to ram counterprotesters was discussed in white supremacist fora before the fact and widely discussed and cheered there afterwards, so that should not be seen as an isolated incident either (especially in light of the hundred plus racially motivated murders by members of Stormfront over the last several years). But again note this incident accounted for only a small majority of the injuries, with many coming from separate attacks at the same event.

  363. Tony From Long Island

    V: ” . . . . .“While neo-nazis are fewer in number, and are largely self-funded, and armor themselves.”

    They too receive funding from a number of sources, including the Putin regime . . . . ”

    Are you sure you’re not Andy?

  364. Tony From Long Island

    Andy: ” . . . .3 Facts you need to know about JEWS: FIRST FACT: The Holocaust never happened . . . ”

    This is beneath even the disgustingness of Andy. It is likely not him. . . if it is, he’s even more sick than I thought.

  365. Kevin S Bjornson

    Putin is not funding white supremacists in the US. He has done something like that in Europe, along with subsidies to leftists.

    Most political violence in the US comes from Jihadists, and neo-nazis are their fellow-travelers. There is a large overlap between neo-confederates and neo-nazis.

    The left traditionally opposed Jihadists, for instance, Stalin deported Tatars in Crimea to Siberia. But in response to the west employing the Muslim card, starting with the 19th century Crimean war and continuing to the modern era (most spectacularly, the anti-Soviet operations in Afghanistan), Russia has allied with Shia Jihadists (who oppose Sunni Jihadists).

    Antifa is just a replay of the street fights of the 1920s, commies vs. Nazis. The Nazis won most of those street fights, because they were more popular among veterans (who know how to organize and use weapons). Did that make Nazis a greater threat than Stalinism?

    Stalin acknowledged that his political control of the Soviet military, weakened their readiness. When he had to, he appealed to Russian nationalism and Orthodox Christianity. Because those are more popular among the masses, than abstract Marxist theory.

    When some idiot like Cantwell is in charge of the pro-statute crowd, we cannot reasonably expect them to be well disciplined or controlled. While Antifa is well financed and controlled, by those who are smarter. They don’t armor their fighters, they prefer martyrs. I imagined there are lawsuits and Googled to check, sure enough there are:
    http://wtvr.com/2017/09/01/robert-sanchez-turner-lawsuit-against-virginia-leaders/

    Has anybody else noticed that Liberty Hangout has done several questionable articles, especially the one supporting Cantwell?

  366. V for Vagina

    “Putin is not funding white supremacists in the US. He has done something like that in Europe, along with subsidies to leftists.”

    The funding may be somewhat shadowy, but I am betting it is finding its way. They certainly seem to be very enamored with him, and with Trump. And Trump seems to be enamored with Putin as well, just as pro-Putin Russian sources clearly favor him. There are strong links between all three, along with the racist movements in Europe.

    “The left traditionally opposed Jihadists, for instance, Stalin deported Tatars in Crimea to Siberia. But in response to the west employing the Muslim card, starting with the 19th century Crimean war and continuing to the modern era (most spectacularly, the anti-Soviet operations in Afghanistan), Russia has allied with Shia Jihadists (who oppose Sunni Jihadists).”

    Well the Russian government today is by no means leftist…so I’m not sure what the point of all that being brought up in this discussion is.

    “Antifa is just a replay of the street fights of the 1920s, commies vs. Nazis. The Nazis won most of those street fights, because they were more popular among veterans (who know how to organize and use weapons). Did that make Nazis a greater threat than Stalinism?”

    That depends on where. In most of Germany, I would say that yes, it was.

    “When some idiot like Cantwell is in charge of the pro-statute crowd, ”

    There you go again. They were not a “pro-statute” crowd. That was just one small element or jumping off point of their agenda. The slogans they chanted such as “Russia is our friend” and “Jews will not replace us” had nothing to do with the statues. Neither did the nazi eagles on the rally posters. Or the swastikas and other white power symbols seen throughout the crowd. It’s clear that the statues were just a backdrop. Why did they march with torches? Does that have something to do with the statues? As far as I know it harkens back to either nazi Germany or the KKK, but not to the civil war or even the antebellum south as far as I know.

    Also, just because Vice news interviewed him doesn’t mean Cantwell was “in charge.”

    ” While Antifa is well financed and controlled, by those who are smarter. ”

    You keep repeating this claim, but it is still lacks evidence. Again, the organizations that have been shown to have received even a smidgeon of their funding from Soros are not the ones who engaged in violence. They put on protests where a smaller group that showed up – Black Bloc – engaged in violence. There is a difference, and there is no evidence whatsoever that any Soros money ever went to Black Bloc or that they would accept any. They consider Soros to be a capitalist pig, in their own words. The groups that received Soros funding did not engage in or condone any of the violence that a small and unaffiliated group at their protests engaged in as far as anything I have seen. If you have any evidence whatsoever to the contrary please share it.

    Where is the evidence they are “controlled”?

    “They don’t armor their fighters, they prefer martyrs. ”

    Sounds like BS to me. Do you have evidence of this conspiracy theory to create martyrs? As far as I know, most people went to a counterprotest, not as fighters or martyrs. The fact that violence broke out does not mean that they necessarily had to have expected that.

    “Has anybody else noticed that Liberty Hangout has done several questionable articles, especially the one supporting Cantwell?”

    “Liberty Hangout” has always been a far right, racist trash heap and only gets worse with time.

  367. paulie

    Yes, that tangent was getting way past really old and Daemon Sims is more and more certainly fitting the “Nathan Norman” pattern. This particular manifestation ostensibly having different political opinions doesn’t really solve the bigger problems with Nathan’s comments. We have a policy to also delete comments that are replies to identified spam/troll comments. Therefore, your comment was also incinerated along with Daemon/Nathan’s.

  368. paulie

    Fake Andy and fake (I think) Chris also removed. Not sure what’s up with the real Andy, he must be busy as I was not able to get a hold of him on the phone yesterday either.

  369. Tony From Long Island

    Your so-called “Antifa” is a small rag-tag group of anarchists. They are miniscule in number. If that is the reason that made you vote for a clown like Trump, you need to work on your priorities.

    “punch some communists?” Is it 1954 again? When are the McCarthy Hearings?

  370. Kevin S Bjornson

    Previously in this thread, I spent an hour researching and posted extensive documentation of Soros funding of far left, including Antifa. At the time, you simply denied that the funding went to “Black Bloc”, despite the extensive documentation I provided, which you did not refute. You appear to claim that to prove my point, I must document funding to “Black Bloc” despite that they do not have any registered organization which could receive funding. You exclude, a priori, any link between Antifa or the far left,(which is what I was talking about) and “Black Bloc”, which apparently does all the violence, while Antifa and the Revolutionary Communist Party cannot do violence.

    In other words, your standards and assumptions exclude the possibility of such evidence.

    Nevertheless, here is a portion again, with additional comments interleaved:

    This documents that AFGJ funds, inter alia, the Refuse Fascism group:
    http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=7917
    “Refuse Fascism (RF) was established shortly after the November 2016 U.S. presidential election in which Republican Donald Trump defeated Democrat Hillary Clinton. The creators of RF were Revolutionary Communist Party members Carl Dix, Sunsara Taylor (an advisory board member with World Can’t Wait), and Andy Zee (a spokesman for the Manhattan-based Revolution Books shop managed by the Maoist activist C. Clark Kissinger). One of RF’s key “founding initiators” was Cornel West.”
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
    (K) Here is Carl Dix, admitting what “V” does not admit, that the original protest was about removal of a statute:
    http://revcom.us/a/503/statement-from-carl-dix-from-charlottesville-en.html
    “This white supremacist rally was called to prevent a statue of Robert E. Lee, commander of an army that fought to keep slavery in effect, from being removed from a public park”

    (K) Here is Carl Dix (ibid), calling for a civil war and the overthrow of an elected government:
    “This must be STOPPED, and it’s up to us to STOP it.
    What is going on in Charlottesville is a direct outgrowth of the Trump/Pence fascist regime. And it is the outlines of a new civil war in this country. These fascists are serious. And we must wake up and confront them with resistance that is just as serious.”

    (K) Elsewhere he said:
    http://comradecarl.blogspot.com/
    “We in the Revolutionary Communist Party (RCP) are organizing right now for an actual revolution, one that overthrows this system and replaces it with a far better one. We have the leadership needed to make this revolution in Bob Avakian, the leader of the RCP”

    (K) How could there be an “actual revolution” without violence? And who is “Bob Avakian”? Here he is, advocating revolutionary political violence against non-leftists:
    http://www.revcom.us/a/v20/980-89/984/moral3.htm
    “Communists recognize that, under the dictatorship of the proletariat, the execution of some people–and in particular those representatives of the old order who have committed outrageous crimes against the people–is positive because it is a necessary part of enabling the masses of people to fully raise their heads, to smash the old state machinery and establish and develop their own forms and organs of political power, and to carry forward the revolutionary transformation of society.”
    ,,,
    “Communists support revolutionary violence and war…the eliminate bourgeois dictatorship”

    (K) Pre-WW2, communist gangs took over some German cities. Post-WW2, E. Germany was ruled by the Soviet Union. Stalin murdered more people than Hitler. Generally, we should encourage tyrants to fight each other; though sometimes we must temporarily side with one tyrant over another, to avoid too many fronts in a war.

  371. V for Vagina

    Bjornson continues to compound his error, even though it was specifically addressed already.

    Facts not in dispute:

    1. Soros supplies a small portion of the funding of various intermediary organizations which in turn supply a small portion of the funding of organizations which organize protests such as Refuse Fascism.

    2. Black bloc shows up at these protests, engages in property damage and nonlethal violence.

    There is no point in repeatedly proving these facts as neither I nor anyone else here is disputing them.

    Bjornson’s conclusions, not supported in any way by his evidence:

    1. Refuse Fascism and other protest organizers condone the actions of the Black Bloc just because they show up at their demonstrations. There is no evidence of this. When you put on a mass-participation demonstration, you don’t necessarily control everyone who shows up and what they do. Most of the people who showed up at the demonstrations were peaceful. I have seen nothing from the event organizers that condoned the violence in any way.

    2. Soros funds black bloc, and/or Black Bloc and Refuse Fascism are one and the same. Again, there is no evidence of any of this.

    3. Through his funding, Soros controls black bloc and directs their actions. He tells them to put up martyrs and intentionally go into battle without armor. This is pure fantasy, not in any way shape or form deduced from the facts we have agreed on earlier, and several big logic leaps removed from those known facts.

    I’m not even necessarily saying Bjornson’s conspiracy theory is wrong – I have no concrete proof that it is wrong either. What I am saying however is that he has made multiple logic leaps to get from the facts he presented, and which neither I or anyone else here argued with, to get to such conclusions.

    Bjornson now muddies the waters by bringing in the Revolutionary Communist Party. Does this group engage in violence? I have no idea. Certainly their name reveals that they are committed to a revolution. Avakian makes clear that he wants it to be a violent one and that he would carry out mass murder if he came to power. But that has nothing to do with whether they engage in violence in concrete present day reality as opposed to their fantasy world where the workers have risen up to cast off the bosses. Maybe they do, maybe they don’t. Do they get Soros funding as well? Seems unlikely.

    Refuse Fascism does, but Refuse Fascism is a “popular front” group, not the RCP per se, even if its founders are RCP members. If some popular front group like ANSWER or Refuse Fascism gets a small portion of its money from organizations which in turn get a small portion of their money from Soros that’s not the same thing as Soros directly funding, much less controlling, e.g. PSL or RCP.

    I’m not sure what point Bjornson was trying to make by bringing up the RCP. Their theoretical commitment to a revolution some day down the road says nothing about whether they support – much less are involved with or direct – black bloc violence now.

    Even if we were to theorize that Refuse Fascism not only condones but actively directs black bloc violence, which is itself not supported by any known facts, it’s a further leap to take from there that the miniscule portion of their funding which they receive through intermediaries from Soros gives him some sort of operational control of black bloc street fighters.

    Next, Bjornson brings up the grandiose rhetoric of RCP member Carl Dix who also helped create Refuse Fascism. To put this rhetoric into context we must remember that tiny Marxist sects constantly spout grandiose violent rhetoric that is not in any way matched by their actions. When these clowns talk about “civil war” and being “just as serious” as the fascists they need to be judged by their actions, not by their words. Their actions reveal they are nowhere near as serious as the fascists right now. And whether or not they buy into the smokescreen that the fascists’ main issue was the statue removal is also not particularly important.

    Bjornson tries to link RCP through its front group, Refuse Fascism, with violence engaged in by Black Bloc members who showed up at Refuse Fascism’s event(s), but has not established a link between the small amount of indirect Soros funding that the front group receives with any operational control over the front group, nor any direct links between Refuse Fascism and black bloc. Black bloc’s real world violence, which is still well short of the fascists’, has not been linked to Soros by anything Bjornson has put forward here; nor does bringing up the RCP’s purely theoretical rhetoric of violence do anything but muddy the waters here.

    It also does not help to remind us that communists engaged in a lot of violence and killed a lot of people in other countries and in the past. We are talking about the here and now. The communists of the US in the early 21st centuries are in no position to take over cities, carry out mass executions, or do anything like what they did in interwar Germany, much less Stalin’s USSR or Mao’s China. They are not even up to the standards of the Marxist terrorists in the US in the 1960s and 70s, or those of the fascists they are facing today.

    By the way, you can call me Gina, which also happens to be my real first name.

  372. Tony From Long Island

    I can see why the nasty fake stuff was deleted, but I don’t know why my last post was . . . oh well. . .this thread is crazy . . .

  373. paulie

    Sorry Tony, but what we established was that responses to spam/troll comments would be deleted along with the spam/troll comment they respond to. There was nothing wrong with your comment per se, but it didn’t make sense if the comment it was referring to was gone. As for the post you were replying to, it has been posted here numerous times on various threads from a variety of IP anonymizers which are also being used to post other spam/troll comments here. That comment was itself borderline (albeit ridiculous in every respect) but appears to be part of a larger attack pattern.

  374. Tony From Long Island

    That’s what I figured. Gotta roll with the punches and ignore as best as you can. Speaking of ignore . . . where is the real Andy? He hasn’t infuriated me in a few days now.

  375. paulie

    Dunno. I haven’t been able to get a hold of him in several days on the phone either. Maybe he’s mad at me for demoting him from author to contributor, which sucks if so because I need to transact some real life business. Unfortunately I had to do that because of IPR article standards. Discussing it was not getting anywhere.

  376. Kevin S Bjornson

    “Black bloc” does not have a foundation with that exact title, and does not have or share it’s membership list (so we could see if that overlaps with groups that are provably funded by Soros). There’s a legal reason for that. To establish a tax-exempt foundation, federal approval is necessary…

    http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2016/12/chroniclethe-irs-has-granted-tax-exempt-status-to-more-than-60-hate-groups.html
    “It’s fairly difficult for the IRS to deny or revoke tax-exempt status, unless there’s a call to violence,” said Marcus Owens, a tax lawyer who ran the IRS office that oversees nonprofit groups in the 1990s.

    The RCP skates close to that, but since they use political rhetoric and themselves do not engage in violence, they are able to maintain legal status and receive funds tax-exempt.

    I documented direct Soros funding of “tiny marxist sects” as well as funding through intermediaries. We are talking about many millions of dollars.

    The RCP rhetoric calls for violence and actual revolution. We must acknowledge a linkage between such rhetoric, and action. That’s called “incitement”. For example, there is no proof that Hitler himself used violence, but his rhetoric incited others. Obviously, funding for groups that call for violent revolution, will tend to attract those who engage in violence.

  377. V for Vagina

    “Black bloc” does not have a foundation with that exact title, and does not have or share it’s membership list (so we could see if that overlaps with groups that are provably funded by Soros).

    Therefore, you do not have any evidence that they are funded by Soros. Thanks for making that clear at last.

    “The RCP skates close to that, but since they use political rhetoric and themselves do not engage in violence, they are able to maintain legal status and receive funds tax-exempt.

    I documented direct Soros funding of “tiny marxist sects” as well as funding through intermediaries. We are talking about many millions of dollars.

    Refresh my memory, where did you do that? The only thing I remember seeing was that $50k went to a front group, Refuse Fascism. But Refuse Fascism doesn’t even use the same kind of rhetoric as RCP itself, because it is trying to be a popular front group that attracts more than just RCP members. If there was anything posted about Soros money going directly to Marxist sects such as RCP, PSL, WWP, SWP or SEP please refresh my memory, as well as anything about millions of dollars going to any of these groups. Even if you can provide that, there’s still nothing to indicate that Soros has operational control of these Marxist “parties,” or that he does anything more than provide a small portion of their funding through intermediaries, or that either he or they have any sort of control over black bloc, or that they engage in actual as opposed to rhetorical violence directly.

    Your conspiracy theory still does not add up; you’ve drawn only a couple of tenuous links and filled in the rest in your own mind.

    “That’s called “incitement”. For example, there is no proof that Hitler himself used violence, but his rhetoric incited others.

    Hitler without any doubt had operational control over members of his own party who openly engaged in violence. That is not in any way analogous. If you have evidence that, say, Avakian issues orders to RCP stormtroopers who then beat people up in the streets, please share it. So far all you have done is document that Avakian’s RCP created a front group which staged demonstrations where a group of unknown people which is for all we know unaffiliated beat people up. That’s not quite the same thing. I’m not aware of anything from Avakian, RCP, or Refuse Fascism even condoning these specific acts of violence, much less ordering them.

    ” Obviously, funding for groups that call for violent revolution, will tend to attract those who engage in violence.

    As far as I know Refuse Fascism does not call for violent revolution, despite its links with RCP which does. And there are all kind of people with delusions who call for violent revolution but have shown no capacity for any kind of violence.

    Is Soros even aware that any of his money goes to Refuse Fascism and that Refuse Fascism has such strong ties to RCP? We can’t even be sure of that much, much less the much stronger links you claim exist.

    Gina

  378. Kevin S Bjornson

    Gina: One of the Soros donations was for $28 million. And that was for just one year. I’m not going to post it again unless you pay me. Just scroll back and you will see it, you already responded to it, apparently you responded without carefully reading.

    RCP does receive Soros funding and they do call for violent revolution. Most of their leaders are too old to themselves engage in violence, and in any event, they would likely not do so in order to not endanger their funding.

    Soros is like a mafia don who has “buffers”. Unlike the old time mafia, he cannot order violence, but he can encourage violence by subsidizing those who call for violence.

    The radical communists who are the backbone of Antifa, are calling Trump and just about anybody who is not left, a fascist. If people believe someone is like Hitler, and resonate with calls for violent revolution, you must expect violent attacks.

    Here is a documentary on Antifa:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuNKs0RKHtw

  379. DJ

    Tony From Long Island
    September 29, 2017 at 19:29

    The new American . . . . https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-new-american/

    The so-called “antifa” are a miniscule pimple on the United States population. If they exist at all, the are so small in number as to have a de minimis effect.
    ………………

    It/they do exist, or have you not been paying attention. So, your point?

    Is the story accurate? If not, point out how. Your fact check link didn’t prove anything….well, except they (fact checker LOL) believe science is a consensus.

    Definition of consensus
    1 a :general agreement :unanimity

    the consensus of their opinion, based on reports … from the border —John Hersey

    b :the judgment arrived at by most of those concerned

    the consensus was to go ahead

    2 :group solidarity in sentiment and belief

    In fact, the article they (fact check) linked was an article on climate change. It had 0 to do with the article link posted.

  380. Tony From Long Island

    My link was only to provide context for your biased link. No more – no less.

    DJ

    In fact, the article they (fact check) linked was an article on climate change. It had 0 to do with the article link posted.

    I have no idea what you are talking about. The link I provided ranks the bias of The new American as a whole. Not just one particular article.

    https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-new-american/

  381. Tony From Long Island

    Kevin B:

    Here is a ranking of the credibility of some of your “sources” from this thread:

    The Daily Caller: generally nuts https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-caller/

    The Atlantic: Pretty unbiased https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-atlantic/

    Jewish World Review: Right wing https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/jewish-world-review/

    Front Page Mag – so nuts it’s not even rated

    Open Secrets: – unbiased . . wow https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/center-for-responsive-politics-open-secrets/

    Discover The Networks: Pure garbage fake crap https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/discover-the-networks/

    You Tube: Really? Seriously? You tube?

  382. V for Vagina

    “One of the Soros donations was for $28 million. And that was for just one year. I’m not going to post it again unless you pay me. Just scroll back and you will see it, you already responded to it, apparently you responded without carefully reading.”

    I read everything you wrote. I don’t have perfect recall, but I did do a search for “$28 million” in this thread just now and found no instances until this latest comment from you. I will not reread the whole thread, sorry. In any case if Soros donated 28 million it would have been to an intermediary fund that goes to all sorts of things, with only a very small portion (50k) going to a group like Refuse Fascism. I don’t believe for a second that Refuse Fascism ended up with $28 million of Soros’ money, or even that they have anything even remotely approaching $28 million in their whole budget.

    “RCP does receive Soros funding and they do call for violent revolution.”

    Again I have not seen evidence of this direct funding for RCP. It’s true that Refuse Fascism receives Soros funding indirectly, but despite being a front group for RCP, Refuse Fascism does not engage in that kind of rhetoric.

    “Soros is like a mafia don who has “buffers”. Unlike the old time mafia, he cannot order violence, but he can encourage violence by subsidizing those who call for violence.”

    This conspiracy theory still remains unproven. What it sound like to me instead is that Soros donates an amount – let’s say 28 million – to an intermediary organization that submits a good sounding, generally progressive grant proposal to his foundation. It’s one of many such requests that the Soros foundation funds each year, and from there they probably don’t track the money very closely. In turn this intermediary group makes its own decision to donate 50k to Refuse Fascism which again sounds innocuous when they look at the funding proposal; most likely they do not realize it is an RCP front group. The grant to Refuse Fascism is in turn one of many that this intermediary organization pays out each year. Refuse Fascism stages a demonstration and a variety of different people show up, including Black Bloc, who are a small percentage of the people at the rally but get all the headlines due to their violent and disruptive behavior. It may be possible that some RCP members are also in Black Bloc, but we have no way of knowing this – and it’s vanishingly unlikely that Soros would either.

    This scenario seems infinitely more plausible than the picture you paint of Soros as a movie villain/mafia don who secretly directs black bloc street violence.

    “The radical communists who are the backbone of Antifa, are calling Trump and just about anybody who is not left, a fascist.”

    Trump actually is a fascist. There are plenty of conservatives and libertarians who oppose Trump and Trumpism, though, and they are not fascist.

    “If people believe someone is like Hitler, and resonate with calls for violent revolution, you must expect violent attacks.”

    RCP only talks about violent revolution. Black bloc actually riots in the streets, but doesn’t kill people. The link between RCP and Black bloc remains unproven, along with several other links on the hypothetical chain between Soros and Black Bloc. Neo-nazis both call for violent revolution and kill people. Putin and Trump actually order killings themselves as well – and unlike your conspiracy theory with Soros, there are no multiple logic leap degrees of separation involved.

  383. Kevin S Bjornson

    Gina–what would evidence (of Soros involvement) look like, to you?
    Any source you don’t agree with, you simply dismiss.
    That is an “a priori” way of dismissing evidence that does fit your view.

    Some of the sources I cited had links to financial reports,
    such as those on websites of the organizations or government agencies.
    Are those all deliberate forgeries, part of an elaborate false-flag operation?

    Do you admit or deny the possibility of my theory?
    How do you know that no “Antifa” person could also be “Black Bloc”?
    How do you know that no “Black Bloc” are inspired by RCP rhetoric?

    But let us suppose my theory is false; how else do you explain the
    small numbers of serious injuries, or fatalities, caused by Black Bloc?
    Superior moral character on the part of radical communists and street thugs?

    What is your definition of “Black Bloc”?
    Does “Black Bloc” have a central command and/or official membership list?
    Why can’t you see, there is an intelligence, and an organization, behind the direct action?

  384. V for Vagina

    “what would evidence (of Soros involvement) look like, to you?”

    Like actual evidence, rather than taking a few actual links and filling in the rest with your imagination because you have a pre-determined conclusion. It’s possible that Soros could be the James Bond villain you paint him as, but it’s not very likely, and you have done nothing even remotely approaching proving any such case.

    “Any source you don’t agree with, you simply dismiss.”

    I’ve taken all your alleged evidence into account, and simply noted that there are huge holes that you are filling in with your imagination alone.

    “Some of the sources I cited had links to financial reports,
    such as those on websites of the organizations or government agencies.
    Are those all deliberate forgeries, part of an elaborate false-flag operation?”

    No, because none of them show anything like the conclusion you purport they support.

    “Do you admit or deny the possibility of my theory?”

    Apparently it’s you who does not read carefully. I already said I don’t deny the possibility of your “theory” (actually, it doesn’t rise to the level of theory, conjecture is more like it). I just find it highly unlikely and not supported by the actual facts you have cited.

    “How do you know that no “Antifa” person could also be “Black Bloc”?”

    That would be absurd. Black Bloc are in fact antifa, which no one disputes. Where the confusion creeps in is that there are many other kinds of antifa who are not violent. People like you then use that confusion to hype up crackpot “theories” such as that Soros directs Black Bloc violence because some of his money indirectly went to a group that organized a demonstration that Black Bloc crashed.

    Suppose a fight broke out at a fraternity party and some people were injured. You could maybe blame that on the whole fraternity, although it’s more likely that a few individuals got out of hand. You could then prove that the fraternity receives subsidies from the university, which in turn gets subsidies from the state legislature and congress. From there, would your assumption be that members of the legislature, congress, and the university board of regents are in cahoots to direct drunken fratboys to punch each other? Yes, I suppose that is possible, but it’s highly unlikely and pointing out a few facts about how money flows from the state and federal governments to the university and from the university to the frat doesn’t approach proving any such case. Your hypothesis about Soros is a lot like that. It’s not up to me to disprove that your “theory” is correct, the burden of proof is squarely on you and you have not met it or even come close.

    “How do you know that no “Black Bloc” are inspired by RCP rhetoric?”

    I have no idea whether they are or not, and apparently neither do you.

    “But let us suppose my theory is false; how else do you explain the
    small numbers of serious injuries, or fatalities, caused by Black Bloc?
    Superior moral character on the part of radical communists and street thugs?”

    As compared to nazis, probably so, I would say yes. It’s either that or they are just not as tough. It’s like a gang of schoolyard bullies against a real street gang that kills people. Sure, neither is all that moral, but one is clearly worse than the other. That seems a lot more plausible than some operational control by Soros of black bloc street fighters as part of some grand scheme.

    “What is your definition of “Black Bloc”?”

    Masked, all-black wearing anarcho-syndicalists who show up at left wing rallies and frequently engage in property destruction and non-defensive but non-lethal violence.

    “Does “Black Bloc” have a central command and/or official membership list?”

    No.

    “Why can’t you see, there is an intelligence, and an organization, behind the direct action?”

    There is clearly some element of organization, but I’ve seen no evidence of organization beyond what can be readily learned from easily available online manuals and discussion groups on leaderless resistance tactics. There is nothing whatsoever that comes close to demonstrating they must have some sort of puppetmaster.

  385. Tony From Long Island

    Kevin B:

    I see you don’t challenge the RWNJ level of your “sources.”

    There is no such group called “Black Bloc.” It’s a tactic, not a group.

    I am a liberal who had never seen or met or knew anyone who did meet the almighty Oz (I mean Soros). Your favorite scapegoat is just a rich old guy.

    I generally don’t read posts that are longer than a few paragraphs. It’s a sure symptom of nuttiness. So I am just getting a feel for your level of crazy.

    Do you have any hobbies? Walking in nice foliage? Rugby without a helmet? Crocheting? If not, you need to find one.

    p.s. Sorry all for the double post earlier.

  386. V for Vagina

    “I generally don’t read posts that are longer than a few paragraphs. It’s a sure symptom of nuttiness. ”

    Well to be fair I have had some long ones here myself.

    “Do you have any hobbies? Walking in nice foliage? Rugby without a helmet? Crocheting? If not, you need to find one.”

    Yes, I have hobbies, LOL. I can’t speak for Kevin.

  387. Tony From Lony Island

    Va-jay-jay:

    ME: “I generally don’t read posts that are longer than a few paragraphs. It’s a sure symptom of nuttiness. ”

    Well to be fair I have had some long ones here myself.

    Sure, but trying to fact check and rationalize with KB doesn’t count, so you’re OK!

    Yes, I have hobbies, LOL. I can’t speak for Kevin.

    Hopefully they don’t include rugby without a helmet!

  388. V for Vagina

    Even worse – muff diving without a dental dam. Admittedly a dangerous hobby, especially in dimly lit nightclub ladies rooms after a few drinks, but it has its rewards. Trying to rationalize with KB, on the other hand, is sort of like running into a brick wall repeatedly, on purpose. Not very smart, not very pleasant and not a very good use of time. I should really stop it.

  389. DJ

    dL
    September 29, 2017 at 23:48

    The new American . . . . https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-new-american/

    You need only check the source of this so-called documentary. Trevor Loudon is a right wing crackpot. These lunatics are the ones who invented the “Fake News” genre.
    …………….

    Well, then surely you can provide a link which refutes the article about a documentary you obviously disagree with. Right!?

  390. DJ

    Tony From Long Island
    September 29, 2017 at 21:48

    My link was only to provide context for your biased link. No more – no less.

    DJ

    In fact, the article they (fact check) linked was an article on climate change. It had 0 to do with the article link posted.

    I have no idea what you are talking about. The link I provided ranks the bias of The new American as a whole. Not just one particular article.
    ……………

    So, your point is; the article wasn’t about a documentary? Because the site is biased, and we all know you aren’t….LOL

  391. paulie

    Trying to rationalize with KB, on the other hand, is sort of like running into a brick wall repeatedly, on purpose. Not very smart, not very pleasant and not a very good use of time. I should really stop it.

    Indeed.

  392. Tony From Long Island

    DJ. You need to read things slower. They are giving a single example of a certain bias they see as part of their overall grade. Check other sources with that site and you will see they do the same thing. Slow down.

    If you want to keep relying on biased sources . . be my guest. But you will be called out every time.

  393. Tony From Long Island

    Va-jay-jay: ” . . . .Even worse – muff diving without a dental dam . . . ”

    As long as there is no actual “muff” I’m good 🙂 It’s my only pre-requisite!

    There are few things I find more irritating than actual muff. Among them is hearing about “false flag” operations from Andy . . . .and now I can add hearing about George Soros from KB. 🙂

  394. Tony From Long Island

    No, this is the one weekend per year that I do inventory at work. It was the same weekend last year that I could. I’ll be here for a few more hours. Probably not tomorrow . . . . . Lots of overtime 🙂

  395. Kevin S Bjornson

    Tony, Gina asked me for iron-clad documentation. Because of the importance of the topic, and my previous work for a language institute he founded, and funds we received from Open Society for Liberty Camps, I rose to the challenge. Though of course, there are other rich guys who benefit from more government and chaos, they contribute also; and there is the vast middle class of trained operatives who form the backbone of the infrastructure of communist insurrection.

    In a sense, “Antifa” is like Hezbollah; a hardcore of terrorist activity surrounded by more expensive involvement in charity and other non-violent work. They fit together like pieces in a machine, not all parts are the cutting edge.

    I agree, “Black Bloc” is a tactic not a group in any legally recognized sense. But it’s no coincidence that those who adopt Black Bloc tactics and attire, are found among the larger “Antifa” crowd. They sympathize with Antifa goals and hide among them for protection.

    For instance, there is the video of the bike lock professor, who mingles with Antifa, launches his attack, then goes back into the crowd where he is relatively anonymous and hard to get to.

    “Antifa” itself is a generic term, represented by several front groups for funding, with overlaping groups of activists and no formal membership lists. Originally “Antifa” meant anti-fascist, but now “fascism” is applied to virtually all non-leftists. So this is really a re-play of the battles between Nazi and communist street gangs of the 20’s.

  396. V for Vagina

    “Tony, Gina asked me for iron-clad documentation. ”

    Too bad you failed so spectacularly at providing it.

    “I rose to the challenge”

    This reminds me of Trump giving himself rave reviews for how he has responded to hurricane damage in Puerto Rico.

    “Originally “Antifa” meant anti-fascist, but now “fascism” is applied to virtually all non-leftists”

    No, it’s still applied to fascists. Antifascist means what it always meant, and most antifascists have nothing to do with any street battles.

  397. DJ

    Tony From Long Island
    September 30, 2017 at 13:26

    DJ. You need to read things slower. They are giving a single example of a certain bias they see as part of their overall grade. Check other sources with that site and you will see they do the same thing. Slow down.

    If you want to keep relying on biased sources . . be my guest. But you will be called out every time.
    …………….

    LOL. I’m not relying on anything, maybe you should read slower.

    The web sites bias is irrelevant. The documentary exists or it doesn’t. Care to address the documentary? But, if you want to keep digging your hole deeper, in the words of the esteemed Tony from Long Island; “be my guest”.

  398. Kevin S Bjornson

    (K) “Originally “Antifa” meant anti-fascist, but now “fascism” is applied to virtually all non-leftists”

    (Gina) No, it’s still applied to fascists. Antifascist means what it always meant, and most antifascists have nothing to do with any street battles.

    (K) “Antifa” and “anti-fascist” are not the same word or have the same meaning. Clearly, those who identify as “Antifa” have denounced capitalism. To conflate the two indicates bad faith.

    I don’t deny that most Antifa are non-violent. That would be a stupid tactic. Think for a minute. Suppose every member of a crowd were violent. Wouldn’t that make the job for police easy? Wouldn’t that also discredit the Antifa cause through bad publicity?

    Here is a CNN article, containing a video showing “Black Bloc” identifying themselves as “Antifa”:

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us/unmasking-antifa-anti-fascists-hard-left/index.html

    Portland police say that Antifa has been involved in 10 protests involving violence.

    Gina denies Soros funding of Antifa groups by ad hominem, claiming the sources are biased.
    I cited several sources, any source that provides evidence for the funding, Gina attacks the source.
    I asked Gina what proof would look like, to her, and she doesn’t answer. Which implies, no amount of evidence can dislodge her belief in the absence of Soros funding.

    Similarly, Gina claims that Antifa are not “Black Bloc”. Any violence at Antifa protests, she attributes to Black Bloc. Now that I have documented an overlap, I expect her to attack CNN. I suppose CNN staged the video? The moon landing was faked? Any source I cite that disagrees with her assumptions, she dismisses the source. Which logically excludes the possibility of proof. So, her calls for evidence are not made in good faith, but an attempt to waste my time and keep a false narrative going.

  399. V for Vagina

    It would be nice if Kevin demonstrated any of the reading comprehension he brags about. Once again:

    Yes, Black Bloc are antifa. No one disputes that. I’ve acknowledged it repeatedly in this thread as has everyone else.

    Yes, some of Soros’ money goes to other antifa groups that do not, as far as we know, engage in or condone violent tactics. Just like in our example above some of the money from the state and and federal governments ends up in the hands of a fraternity by way of the state college – but that doesn’t prove that the state and federal legislators, or the university officials, or for that matter even the frat as a whole knew about or approved of some fratboys throwing punches at a frat party.

    So the idea that Soros approves of or directs black bloc antifa to throw punches or damage property remains unproven.

    “Antifa” and “anti-fascist” are not the same word or have the same meaning. “

    False; they have the same meaning. And yes, some people who call themselves antifa don’t confine themselves to only being against fascists but that does not mean that everyone who is antifa has to agree with them. Likewise, some anticommunists are nazis, while others are libertarians. If the news interviews an “anticommunist” who happens to be a nazi it does not make libertarian anticomunists any less anticommunist.

    “Portland police say that Antifa has been involved in 10 protests involving violence.”

    Well duh. Antifa encompasses a lot of people including some who use violence and others who are completely against it. That has been acknowledged by everyone in this thread. Did you just discover your bellybutton too?

    “Gina denies Soros funding of Antifa groups”

    No, I have said a whole bunch of times that some Soros money admittedly finds its way indirectly into some antifa groups. However, no link between any Soros money and Antifa group actually engaged in violence has been demonstrated by you or anyone else here. Why is this so hard to understand?

    Some Soros money goes to some Antifa groups, indirectly. As far as we know they are not the ones who are involved in violence, although other Antifa are. If any of them are the ones involved in violence, there is no proof of this one way or the other, and certainly no proof that Soros knows about it if they are. Your conjecture remains as unproven as ever.

    “I asked Gina what proof would look like, to her, and she doesn’t answer. ”

    I did answer. Scroll up. It seems like you are only capable of reading what I did not write and not what I actually did write.

    “Which implies, no amount of evidence can dislodge her belief in the absence of Soros funding.”

    No, if you ever do come up with some evidence that Soros has knowingly funded any Antifa group that actually engages in violence I will be happy to acknowledge it. You have not. Staging a demonstration where some people with no known link to the organizers engage in violence does not count. You are grasping at straws.

    “Similarly, Gina claims that Antifa are not “Black Bloc”. ”

    I did not. Kevin should actually learn to read instead of bragging about how good at reading he is. He reminds me of Trump in this respect. Hugely.

    “Now that I have documented an overlap, I expect her to attack CNN.”

    LOL why would I do that? Are you actually senile? Please scroll up and read what I wrote again.

    “Any source I cite that disagrees with her assumptions, she dismisses the source.”

    You have me confused with someone else.

    “So, her calls for evidence are not made in good faith, but an attempt to waste my time and keep a false narrative going.”

    The call for evidence is entirely in good faith. No amount of “proving” the obvious while failing to make your case, claiming you provided evidence you never provided earlier, putting words in my mouth or waving your hands makes the call for evidence go away.

  400. Tony From Long Island

    DJ

    LOL. I’m not relying on anything, maybe you should read slower.

    The web sites bias is irrelevant. The documentary exists or it doesn’t. Care to address the documentary? But, if you want to keep digging your hole deeper, in the words of the esteemed Tony from Long Island; “be my guest”.

    I have no idea what you are talking about. I don’t know what “documentary” you are referring, nor do I really care.

    I was pointing out to our non-esteemed friend Mr. Bjorn Borg that his sources are biased and you start talking about some documentary.

  401. Kevin S Bjornson

    Luke, I was responding to Eric Dondero’s post of this article….

    https://libertarianheathen.com/2017/04/11/meet-paul-frankel-editor-in-chief-at-ipr-antifa-terrorist-and-former-fugitivelnc-regional-alternate/%E2%80%9D

    …which someone else re-posted. But Eric’s post has apparently been chucked down the Orwellian memory hole (without a refutation or denial of the serious charges (against Paul Frankel)). ; and “Libertarian Heathen” has also removed the post (without an explanation, perhaps in response to threat of legal action).

    My, my, the mystery deepens. Curious minds want to know.

  402. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    So we can add 59 Las Vegas ” points ” to the progressive/liberal/antifa scorecard and I will give a half-point to them for each person wounded. So that is an extra 500+ half-points.

    Pretty good tally, Paulie, for your side of the murder score card which we discussed earlier.

    Unfortunately Paddock; there to shoot down imagined Trump voters as has already been celebrated by sub-humans/progressives/liberals throughout the country; is only the beginning as the inherent, and yes very very murderous, violence of the progressive/liberal/antifa movement will increasingly come to the surface and easily dwarf, as it already does, the so-called violence of the so-called ” nazis/racists/fill-in-the-blank.”

    I am glad to see the Libertarians embracing this crowd. Coming out of their closet to flash their anti-Christian and pro-antifa inner/real selves is good news for voters who would be potentially otherwise fooled regarding their REAL philosophical roots.

    Yes, Paulie – the progressives/liberals are FAR more violent and murderous, both in philosophy and. ( especially ) reality than any of the ” nazi ” etc. Boogymen which they conjure up as a smokescreen cover for their own anti-Christian, anti-American, and personal pathologies.

    Violence – including murder – is as natural to the progressives/liberals as ” apple pie ” is American.

    Its so sad that only the Constituion Party will truly oppose the progressive/liberal/antifa rodents and their inherent violence, corruption, and outright evil.

  403. paulie

    So we can add 59 Las Vegas ” points ” to the progressive/liberal/antifa scorecard

    On what possible basis? I’ve seen nothing about the shooter having any political agenda. His brother said he had none, so wtf are you talking about?

  404. Andy

    Don, not all Libertarians are embracing Antifa. I reject those dirtbag commies, and I renounce their attacks on free speech, and initiation of violence and property destruction. I reject their advocacy of Marxism, and I reject their globalist puppet masters like George Soros.

    There are other Libertarians out there who agree with me.

    Don’t think that a few Libertarians you encounter online represent the entire Libertarian Party and movement.

  405. paulie

    I reject those dirtbag commies,

    Yeah, not all antifascists are commies. I’m a libertarian antifa(scist). Antifa just means people who organize to confront fascism. I have done that – only online in recent years but my views haven’t changed. That makes me antifa, but none of the things you claim which does describe some antifa(scists) and not others.

    I reject their globalist puppet masters like George Soros.

    Paranoid BS. There is no evidence that Soros is any kind of “puppetmaster” of antifa, as several people above have made clear.

    There are other Libertarians out there who agree with me.

    Too many. Notice that my article was about a real threat to this country, and especially to the libertarian movement and LP specifically, from the murderous racist far right, and yet the vast majority of the focus in the comments has been on the far less severe violence of the far left. Thus proving my point…far too many libertarians are so obsessed with threats from the left that they have totally blinded themselves to the far greater threat from the right.

    It’s also telling that this is what Andy has to say to Grundmann. Why not ask him instead where he is getting this BS about Paddock being antifa? That sounds like something Grundmann made up.

  406. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I’ve heard from a few sources that there was Antifa stuff in the alleged shooter’s room (the one on the 32nd floor). He was apparently an avid Trump-hater.

  407. Andy

    Jill and William, I would not jump to any conclusions pushed by the mainstream media. This shooting in Las Vegas is already looking like another false flag. I’m sure I will get some nasty comments from the usual crowd of anti-intellectuals and “respectability politics” people who post here, but I do not give a damn what the narrowminded think, as they are part of the problem.

    Lots of unanswered questions here. Some “lone nut” just starts popping people off for no apparent reason. This sure does fit in nice with the gun control and police state agenda.

    Stay tuned for more details, and do not forget how much the government and mainstream media lie and spin stories.

  408. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I remember the good-old-days when genuine investigation was done before “authorities” told us what happened. I definitely need to find out more about what happened, especially after listening to the audio, and hearing about the many eyewitnesses who reported multiple shooters.

  409. Cody Quirk

    “I am glad to see the Libertarians embracing this crowd. Coming out of their closet to flash their anti-Christian and pro-antifa inner/real selves is good news for voters who would be potentially otherwise fooled regarding their REAL philosophical roots.”

    Riiiiiiiiiiight. Surrrrrrrrre.

    “Its so sad that only the Constituion Party will truly oppose the progressive/liberal/antifa rodents and their inherent violence, corruption, and outright evil.”

    Actually what’s really sad is how the CP is dying off and losing ballot access since these last elections, along with the bad publicity that it gets for its theocratic platform.

    Seems that the paleocon and religious right crowds (including Roy Moore) embrace the GOP more so today then before, and snub the CP and conservative/paleocon minor parties in general.

    … Oh wait; that’s not sad.

  410. dL

    The conspiracy theory peddlers apparently haven’t quite made up their minds whether the LV shooting was antifa or a false flag. But they are investigating the matter thoroughly and will get back to us ASAP. We eagerly await the investigatory conclusions from out intrepid citizen journalists(i.e, vomiters of right wing fake news).

  411. Tony From Long Island

    Alex Jones reported from

    Well then . . .that settles it . . . . How do otherwise intelligent people say such nonsense . . .

  412. Tony From Long Island

    Andy:

    I reject those dirtbag commies

    Where is the flux capacitor? Is it 1955 again?

    I reject their globalist puppet masters like George Soros.

    Who?

    This shooting in Las Vegas is already looking like another false flag.

    Of course it does . . . . They all are, right?

    Jill:

    I’ve heard from a few sources that there was Antifa stuff in the alleged shooter’s room

    What “sources?”

    He was apparently an avid Trump-hater.

    You reach that conclusion based on what?

    many eyewitness who reported multiple shooters.

    *sigh*

  413. paulie

    Alex Jones reported from a source on the hostage negotiating team, which went into the hotel room, who said there was “antifa crap” everywhere.

    No, he reported some bullshit he made up from an anonymous source which he may or may not have also made up who is allegedly somehow connected to the scene. Sounds like total bullshit.

  414. paulie

    I’ve heard from a few sources that there was Antifa stuff in the alleged shooter’s room (the one on the 32nd floor).

    All of those sources trace back to the same anonymous alleged sources.

    He was apparently an avid Trump-hater.

    The only source I have found which is actually *on the record* – his brother – said he had no particular religious or political affiliations. He was apparently surly and unfriendly in general. What little I have been able to learn about him doesn’t really fit the profile of a leftist – 64 year old wealthy white hetero male, pilot, avid gun collector, high stakes gambler, allegedly dominant in a relationship with a Filipina woman (he allegedly was overheard berating her and telling her he bought her). It’s possible that he could be a leftist, but I think his brother is more likely to be correct than Alex Jones and the alt right noise machine echoing the same shadowy and most likely fake source in their nutty echo chamber.

  415. paulie

    This shooting in Las Vegas is already looking like another false flag.

    Wake me up when you find one that doesn’t. Apparently this is the Schrodinger shooting: is it antifa or false flag? My bet is neither but I’m guessing your answer will be both.

    Lots of unanswered questions here. Some “lone nut” just starts popping people off for no apparent reason.

    Lots of people admit to fantasizing about doing stuff like that. Is it really that hard to imagine that some of them actually follow through and do it?

    This sure does fit in nice with the gun control and police state agenda.

    How so? There have been a bunch of shootings and no legislation. And now we have a Republican president with a Republican congress, chances that they will pass any such legislation and get it signed are low. If “they” wanted a big shooting to trigger new gun restrictions why now?

    Stay tuned for more details, and do not forget how much the government and mainstream media lie and spin stories.

    Whereas Alex Jones only tells the gospel truth. Yeah right.

  416. paulie

    The conspiracy theory peddlers apparently haven’t quite made up their minds whether the LV shooting was antifa or a false flag. But they are investigating the matter thoroughly and will get back to us ASAP. We eagerly await the investigatory conclusions from out intrepid citizen journalists(i.e, vomiters of right wing fake news).

    Yes, but we already know they will conclude that it was both antifa and false flag, because all of antifa is a false flag. Also he was simultaneously a Muslim. Additionally, all of Islam is a false flag. The deep state invented time travel and went back in time to plant their agent, Mohammed, to create Islam. You heard it here first.

    No word yet on whether Paddock was a secret Mexican as well, or even a space alien, but some of the same altreich garbage sources which claim he was antifa do take the time to point out that he “looked Jewish.”

  417. paulie

    I definitely need to find out more about what happened, especially after listening to the audio, and hearing about the many eyewitness who reported multiple shooters.

    I’ve heard Wayne Root has the lowdown on that. You should ask him 🙂

  418. Tony From Long Island

    Paulie, you are on fire today!! Keep it up! . . . oh . . if you are a secret Mexican . . . tu es en fuego!!!!

  419. Luke

    “Additionally, all of Islam is a false flag. The deep state invented time travel and went back in time to plant their agent, Mohammed, to create Islam.”

    It’s all starting to make sense to me now! Those leftist bastards!

  420. V for Vagina

    That should all go without saying. But what the really cutting edge investigators are looking at is what role the transgender agenda played in this latest deep state/antifa false flag operation. We hope to update you with the latest discoveries shortly.

  421. paulie

    I’m eagerly awaiting their findings, but it just occurred to me that Nevada just started legal recreational marijuana sales a few months ago. That can’t possibly be a coincidence.

  422. Tony From Long Island

    So, OJ Simpson gets released, buys a boatload of legal marijuana from a transgender member of Antifa, who is really a secret muslim. That person, in turn, plants an ISIS flag and propaganda materials In the room of some random white guy. When that random white guys returns to his room after a night of innocent blackjack, the secret Muslim kills him and shoots at the crowd. . . . He escapes and lets the dead white guy take the blame. . . . then he gets paid for it all by George Soros. . . . . . sounds about right.

  423. V for Vagina

    “So, OJ Simpson gets released, buys a boatload of legal marijuana from a transgender member of Antifa, who is really a secret muslim. That person, in turn, plants an ISIS flag and propaganda materials In the room of some random white guy. When that random white guys returns to his room after a night of innocent blackjack, the secret Muslim kills him and shoots at the crowd. . . . He escapes and lets the dead white guy take the blame. . . . then he gets paid for it all by George Soros. . . . . . sounds about right.”

    Almost perfect. You forgot the real killer was also a Mexican. That and OJ helped him shoot from out the other window. OJ’s new book “If I did it part II” will have the whole story.

  424. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    The shooter was filmed as an active participant at an anti-Trump rally. Go to pamelageller.com as facebook and youtube are already ” cleaning up the mess;” i.e.; sanitizing/censoring the evidence.

  425. Gene Berkman

    In the real world, it turns out that the Vegas shooter had a history of antisocial behavior. The LA Times reports:

    “New details emerged Tuesday about Paddock, who according to federal records held a series of federal jobs over the years. He was a post office letter carrier in the 1970s, and after graduating from Cal State Northridge with a degree in business administration in 1977, he became an agent for the Internal Revenue Service, a job he held from 1978 to 1984. He then was employed as an auditor for the Defense Contract Audit Agency for a little over a year, federal personnel records showed.”

    source:http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-las-vegas-guns-20171003-story.html

  426. paulie

    Pamela Gellar is not a credible source. If she has video of someone that may have kinda sorta looked like Paddock I will wait for more credible sources to confirm that it was him.

  427. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    Andy – You are correct. Certainly the Democrat and Green parties are more openly supportive of antifa and, especially, their objectives.

    Perhaps I am jaded by the many anti American, Christian, men, masculinity, etc. comments which I peruse at this site.

    I will certainly be ( happily ) shown to be wrong if the Libertarian Party were to take an open stand against the violence of the liberal/progressive/antifa gang. But I won’t hold my breath waiting for that. Even the Republicans, in general, are too afraid to do that.

  428. paulie

    In the real world, it turns out that the Vegas shooter

    From what I have gleaned he mostly worked as an accountant, and was later a landlord. Most recently he has been semi-retired and working as a professional gambler.

  429. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    ” the murderous racist far right ”

    A) What about the far left, or simply left, racism against whites/caucasians? The ” left ” screeches about ” racism ” while they themselves are the biggest racists since they not only attack whites but…

    B) don’t even defend blacks against the biggest mass murderers of the black populace – Planned Parenthood and the entire Abortion Industry which has killed literally MILLIONS of blacks!!

    AND progressives/liberals/antifa not only are silent against this black genocide but they actually ( because they themselves are stupid lackeys/uncle and aunt tom’s of The Plantation Masters ) SUPPORT Planned Parenthood in its Jihad against the black community.

    Will progressives/liberals/antifa EVER say ONE WORD against an organization whose founder called blacks ” human weeds?”

    Answer – No way. Why ? Because progressives/liberals/antifa are just like the goon squads that helped the Bolshevicks to power and then helped them to kill millions of Russians. The same stupid Plantation Master ( bankers ) lackeys doing the same stupid/evil things in our time as they did then and for the same reason – to overthrow the Christian foundations of the nation.

    No, Paulie. History shows then, as it will show now, that the Communist/Socialist/progressive/liberal/antifa walking political turd is the biggest, by orders of magnitude, instigator of violence and racism against humanity.

  430. Tony From Long Island

    Gene:

    In the real world, it turns out that the Vegas shooter had a history of antisocial behavior. The LA Times reports:

    “New details emerged Tuesday about Paddock, who according to federal records held a series of federal jobs over the years. He was a post office letter carrier in the 1970s, and after graduating from Cal State Northridge with a degree in business administration in 1977, he became an agent for the Internal Revenue Service, a job he held from 1978 to 1984. He then was employed as an auditor for the Defense Contract Audit Agency for a little over a year, federal personnel records showed.”

    How is any of that “anti-social?”

  431. Tony From Long Island

    DJG:

    The shooter was filmed as an active participant at an anti-Trump rally. Go to pamelageller.com as facebook and youtube are already ” cleaning up the mess;” i.e.; sanitizing/censoring the evidence.

    You’re kidding, right? Pamela Geller? Really? . . . On the bias meter, she’s just about off the chart.

    https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/geller-report/

    Even after a year and a half of posting here, I still wonder how people like this really exist.

  432. Gene Berkman

    Working for the Internal Revenue Service is about as anti-social as you can get, aside from being a mass shooter. The IRS enforces the compulsory collection of taxes used to fund government warfare, police brutality and meddling in people’s affairs.

    How can there be a question whether that is anti-social?

  433. Andy

    Interesting video. There is already a move to put body scanners in hotels, like airports have with the TSA.

    I was in Nevada in the fall of 2014 working on a marijuana legalization ballot initiative. During the same time I was there, there was a petition which I boycotted, which was for a new gun control law that would ban the private sale of firearms, as in it was so all firearms sales had to go through a government background check, which of course there’d have been a fee to conduct, and it would have denied gun sales to felons. This initiative received funding from former New York City Mayor, Michael Bloomberg. A lot of money was paid out for signatures (it was paying petition circulators $5 per signature, plus there was a .50 cent bonus, plus there were coordinator overrides on top of this). I may have been the only person who worked on the marijuana petition during this time period who refused to work on that gun control petition (I of course received no thanks or anything from anyone in the Libertarian Party for taking a principled stand that was to my financial detriment). Nevada had historically been a pro-gun state, with lots of “cowboy” types and others who gravitate towards freedom living there, but due to the wild shift in demographics, with lots of foreigners and left wing big city liberal types having moved into Nevada, the gun control initiative ended up passing (it was voted on in the November 2016 election). The gun control initiative actually did not pass in every county in Nevada, with the exception of Clark County, which is by far the most populated county in the state. The gun control initiative did not pass by a wide margin in Clark County, but Clark County has such a huge population that it was enough to tip the balance for the gun control initiative passing my a narrow majority for the state. There was a silver lining though for pro-gun rights advocates, because although the initiative passed, it was not implemented, because the initiative was to rely on the FBI to conduct the background checks, and the FBI told them that they did not have the manpower or the funding to conduct that many background checks, and a state ballot initiative could not mandate that a federal agency spend more money. Bloomberg, and his fellow anti-gun right zealots, vowed regroup in Nevada for a revised gun control initiative for a future election. I’m sure Bloomberg and his band of gun grabbers are salivating over this incident.

    Here’s an interesting video on the subject. The video does not mention Bloomberg and his groups (Mayors Against Illegal Guns, and Every Town for Gun Safety), but they certainly are among those who benefit from this.

    Eerie Predictions in Vegas… Cui Bono?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNqxUuyHFzc

  434. Kevin S Bjornson

    The killer used to work for the IRS:
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/federal-spokeswoman-las-vegas-shooter-worked-letter-carrier-50262439

    He was seen in a video at an anti-Trump rally, wearing a pink pussy hat, someone called him “Steve”:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbsa1CiO5Ls

    Here is a still shot of him wearing the hat, holding a political sign, and wearing a NASA t-shirt (he used to work for a NASA contractor):

    http://drrichswier.com/wp-content/uploads/Image-1-1-1-e1507072799627.png

  435. Luke

    You are grasping at straws. It does not even look like the same person. It contradicts what his brother said about his lack of political or religious affiliations. There is no known evidence of Paddock doing anything related to NASA at Lockheed Martin. As a federal contractor, they are best known for their work with the Defense Department.

  436. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    So far the Las Vegas shooting is following the standard pattern : guy uses a knife to cut and stab as many as possible while shouting ” Alluha akbar ” and the claim is ” we have no reason to think of any terrorist connections.” No evidence. Nope. Thats not him in the picture. Nope. There are a million Steves. So what if he wears a NASA shirt? 50 million others do too.

    Now the claim is tha same for Paddock; i.e.; ” the Sgt. Schultz defense ” – I know NOTHING. I see NOTHING. I hear NOTHING.”

    Why? And why not read his note??

    Because it would blow a hole in the progressive/liberal/Establishment/media narrative/smoke screen of how the violent freaks of the anti-Trump/anti-America/anti-Christian crowd are so like Bambi – innocent babes in the woods against the Big Meanies.

    It will be so much easier to shreek for gun control when the fact is suppressed that the shooter was part of the same gang that calls for gun control while attacking people to stop their free speech and killing them because it is imagined that they did not vote for The Queen.

  437. Luke

    What note? As far as any reports I have seen there was no note. Your “evidence” about Paddock (or more accurately not about Paddock) would be laughed out of any court. It’s just pathetic. You call that evidence?

  438. Luke

    ” the shooter was part of the same gang that calls for gun control …”

    Not likely. He has been collecting guns since the 1980s.

    “killing them because it is imagined that they did not vote for The Queen.”

    Well yeah, except for the fact that this is not a fact and not even a likely theory. Also, he himself fits the profile of a Trump voter at least as much as an average country music fan does:

    Well off millionaire, landlord, defense contractor, long time gun collector, pilot, 64 year old straight white male with a submissive Filipina girlfriend, professional gambler, living in sunbelt states (Texas, Florida, Nevada).

    None of those are 100% certain indicators of being a Republican or conservative, but they are at least as much as listening to country.

    And I happen to like country music and (among many genres I listen to) and guns myself, but as for Trump…not so much.

  439. paulie

    LOL, yeah. It helps to remember that some of the people on here are as nutty or nuttier than the schizos wandering around talking to themselves downtown. Engaging them is an exceedingly poor use of time and effort.

  440. Anthony Dlugos

    “It helps to remember that some of the people on here are as nutty or nuttier than the schizos wandering around talking to themselves downtown. Engaging them is an exceedingly poor use of time and effort.”

    man, aint that the truth.

  441. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    LOL, yeah. It helps to remember that some of the people on here are as nutty or nuttier than the schizos wandering around talking to themselves downtown. Engaging them is an exceedingly poor use of time and effort.

    This is why I don’t post anymore. I’m heartbroken over what has happened to this site.

  442. Andy

    Those who scoff at the suggestion of false flag attacks are uniformed and naive. The term “false flag” exists for a reason, and it has been around for a long time.

    Don’t believe that anyone in the US government would engage in a false flag event?

    This again.

    There is a declassified government document from the 1960’s called Operation Northwoods, where government officials talked about different ideas for false flag attacks to get the public behind the US going to war with Cuba.

    Here’s the Wikipedia entry on Operation Northwoods:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

    From the Wikipedia entry: “Operation Northwoods was a proposed false flag operation against the Cuban government, that originated within the U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) and the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) of the United States government in 1962. The proposals called for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) or other U.S. government operatives to commit acts of terrorism against American civilians and military targets, blaming it on the Cuban government, and using it to justify a war against Cuba. The plans detailed in the document included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities.[2] The proposals were rejected by the Kennedy administration.”

  443. paulie

    We’ve been over this before. I don’t scoff at the idea of false flag operations. I scoff at the idea that all or most of these nutball and terrorist attacks are false flags. I’ve met a lot of crazy and dangerous people. Lots of them have opportunities to acquire weapons and sociopathic tendencies and/or psychotic delusions. Only some of them work(ed) for the government. So it’s pretty easy to see how some genuine, non false flag attacks would happen. I’m not going to put it past governments to do this shit either but when you keep saying it’s a false flag every time one of these things happen you become like the boy who cried wolf.

  444. Andy

    “paulie
    October 4, 2017 at 22:30
    We’ve been over this before. I don’t scoff at the idea of false flag operations. I scoff at the idea that all or most of these nutball and terrorist attacks are false flags.”

    Then you have not been paying very close attention.

    I follow this stuff pretty closely, and I’d say that most of the big, hyped up shootings that have happened over the last several years, have been false flags.

    This recent incident in Nevada looks pretty damn fishy. Some 64 year old guy, who was not even known to be a “gun guy,” for no apparent reason, just “goes nuts” and starts popping random people off in a large crowd. There are already multiple reports of shots being fired from multiple locations.

    These government intelligence agencies have billions of dollars at their disposal. The general public, and even most of the people in government, have no idea what these agencies do with their budgets.

    Gun rights are a major obstacle for the would be tyrants in government. It is pretty clear to anyone who looks into the subject that there is a long term plan in place to disarm the American people.

  445. Andy

    The gun control initiative that was on the ballot in Nevada last year passed, but it is not being implemented due to a legal technicality. Bloomberg and his band of gun grabbers vowed to comeback in Nevada with another gun control initiative in a future election.

    This recent shooting incident certainly plays right into the hands of Bloomberg and his fellow gun grabbers. I bet that if they comeback with a new gun control initiative that it will be easier to get signed, and will pass by a wider margin, than the last one, and I bet that it will be less likely to not be implemented due to any legal technicalities.

    Dave Champion on How Bloomberg’s Gun Law Passed in “Pro-Gun” NV

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln7n3j-8wHM

  446. Anthony Dlugos

    I know its gonna disappoint a lot of you Troofers, but given the fact that there was little warning, no manifesto, and no apparent political/religious act to grind, I’ll put my money on some sort of run-of-the-mill organic brain disease.

    “In the months before his deadly rampage, 64-year-old Stephen Paddock was a man “descending into madness,” according to a person briefed on new findings in the investigation.

    More details are emerging, investigators say, that suggest Paddock’s mental state was deteriorating in the weeks before he opened fire into a crowd of concertgoers in Las Vegas on Sunday — significant weight loss, an increasingly slovenly physical appearance and an obsession with his girlfriend’s ex-husband.”

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/portrait-emerging-las-vegas-shooter-man-descending-madness/story?id=50275427

  447. paulie

    Some 64 year old guy, who was not even known to be a “gun guy,”

    Incorrect. He has been collecting guns since the 1980s. He bought 34 guns in the past year but he already had something like 17 by that point.

    Gun rights are a major obstacle for the would be tyrants in government.

    So why now? With a Republican president and congress are we really going to see significant new gun legislation?

    given the fact that there was little warning, no manifesto, and no apparent political/religious act to grind, I’ll put my money on some sort of run-of-the-mill organic brain disease.

    “In the months before his deadly rampage, 64-year-old Stephen Paddock was a man “descending into madness,” according to a person briefed on new findings in the investigation.

    More details are emerging, investigators say, that suggest Paddock’s mental state was deteriorating in the weeks before he opened fire into a crowd of concertgoers in Las Vegas on Sunday — significant weight loss, an increasingly slovenly physical appearance and an obsession with his girlfriend’s ex-husband.”

    That sounds way more plausible than anything said about Paddock on IPR up until now.

  448. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    ” Engaging them is an extremely poor use of time and effort.”

    English translation – I can’t defend my positions. I can’t make any rational arguments in their defense. I can’t refute the superiority of the counter arguments/positions/ideas. I know this but I will NEVER admit that I am wrong so I will say that I am wasting my time arguing with my rational opponents in order to save face; i.e.; my ego and ( especially ) my ” image;” and protect my crazy/rotten/assinine ideas/beliefs/religion from being shredded as they would be in any real discussion.

    A common-as-sand tactic used each and avery day by so-called ” progressives ” since mankind was tossed out of The Garden.

  449. Andy

    Here’s a breakdown on why the Bloomberg backed gun control initiative that narrowly passed in Nevada last year is not being enforced. You just know that Bloomberg and his fellow gun grabbers had to be steaming mad about this.

    Video description from YouTube: “Nevada AG Will NOT Enforce New Gun Control Law

    The FBI has refused to conduct background checks on transfers as required by Question 1, and Nevada Attorney General Adam Laxalt has confirmed that until the FBI changes their position, his office will not be enforcing the law that was set to be enacted just days from now.”

    Nevada AG Will NOT Enforce New Gun Control Law

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZorZZaWgKE

  450. Andy

    Well surprise, surprise, US Senator Diane Feinstein already has a new gun control bill out in response to the Nevada shooting, and this bill already has 24 sponsors.

    “Bill To Ban Bump Stocks Already Gaining Popularity

    Senator Dianne Feinstein (D – CA), a longtime advocate of stricter gun control measures, introduced a bill Wednesday that would ban the sale and possession of bump-stock equipment and other devices that essentially turn a semiautomatic weapon into an automatic one.

    The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) told reporters Tuesday that multiple bump stocks were found in the hotel room used by the shooter, who opened fire during the Route 91 Harvest Music Festival on Sunday, killing 58 people and injuring over 500 others.

    According to a copy of the bill text provided to ABC, it would go into effect 180 days after its passage.”

    Bill To Ban Bump Stocks Already Gaining Popularity

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKPNl4VC5hM

  451. paulie

    Grundmann, if you can find any crazy homeless people that are crazy enough to argue with you, by all means, have at it. That is if you can “defend your position” with them, LOL. Sane people, on the other hand, know that choosing not to argue with crazy people doesn’t mean we can’t do it – it means we don’t want to. Incidentally, I am not a progressive, and I already write in plain English, no translation needed.

    Jill, when did I ever give you the idea that I am a “crack detective”? All I’ve done is pay attention to the news. And yes, I did read a bunch of the conspiracy conjecture too.

  452. paulie

    Well surprise, surprise, US Senator Diane Feinstein already has a new gun control bill out in response to the Nevada shooting, and this bill already has 24 sponsors.

    So what? She’s in the minority.

  453. dL

    I know that crack detectives Paulie, DL and Tony had this all figured out by this morning (Wow! In less than twenty-four hours!), but just for fun, I thought I’d post this.

    I have no knowledge as to the motivations of the shooter at this point. And neither do you.

    When you wrote this:

    I remember the good-old-days when genuine investigation was done before “authorities” told us what happened.

    I note that didn’t stop you from immediately giving your own opinion on what happened and throwing links to the right wing noise machine as “corroboration.”

  454. dL

    So what? She’s in the minority.

    It’s axiomatic that the state always stands ready to take advantage of a tragedy. I don’t need a conspiracy theory for that.

  455. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    When you wrote this:

    I remember the good-old-days when genuine investigation was done before “authorities” told us what happened.

    I note that didn’t stop you from immediately giving your own opinion on what happened and throwing links to the right wing noise machine as “corroboration.

    I didn’t post anything after that comment because I realized you three weren’t listening. All you did was ridicule the four or five posters that had different info than you. I only now posted this evening, but I’ve been angry about it all day and decided to speak up.

  456. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    All I’ve done is pay attention to the news.

    It’s really hard to believe you listened to or watched the news, or you would have known that many eyewitnesses ha talked about more than one shooter. You didn’t have to agree with them, but to ridicule those of us who mentioned that made you look like you thought you had it all figured out.

    I was still awake on the West Coast Sunday night when the news started covering this hideous event. All the stations were covering it. They ALL reported multiple shooters. Most of the eyewitnesses they talked to mentioned multiple shooters. I remember thinking that by the time I got up Monday morning, the story would have been changed to one shooter. And I was right.

    IT’S TOO SOON TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.

    (Yeah, all caps. I am yelling). I think the deaths of 59 people should be properly investigated.

  457. dL

    English translation – I can’t defend my positions

    Better translation: Life is too short to waste much time on crackpots who prance around in public in satan tights and then have the comedic gall to question other people’s male masculinity.

  458. dL

    All you did was ridicule the four or five posters that had different info than you. I only now posted this evening, but I’ve been angry about it all day and decided to speak up.

    One, I don’t have any info on the motivations of the shooter.

    Two, unlike most who whine about “mainstream media news,” I actually refrain from watching it. I haven’t watched cable/satellite news in years.

    Three, ridicule is a proper response to the same conspiracy theories from the same “sources” that get recycled for every tragedy

  459. William Saturn

    Did you even watch the video above? Grundmann makes a strong libertarian argument in favor of privatization of education. Why are you so focused on criticizing the way he dresses to draw attention to his cause? That short interview, viewed over 1000 times, probably did more to advance the cause of the liberty than anything dL has done in his life.

  460. Andy

    MISSION IMPOSSIBLE: Official story of Las Vegas shooting unravels; physical impossibility of lone gunman senior citizen makes narrative ludicrous

    https://www.naturalnews.com/2017-10-02-lone-gunman-theory-of-las-vegas-shooter-is-complete-nonsense-stephen-paddock.html#

    From the article: “Even highly trained Navy Seals would have a difficult time running a full auto weapon for 10 minutes straight. Such weapon systems are brutal on the operator. They require tremendous strength, stamina and expert troubleshooting to keep running. Full-auto weapons overheat and jam. They demand incredible strength to keep aimed on target. They require expert reloading and weapons clearing in the case of jams, and the hotel room would have been so full of smoke and powder residue that it would be almost impossible to keep breathing from that enclosed space.

    Far from what the firearms-illiterate media claims, these are not systems that any Joe off the street can just pick up and use to effortlessly mow down 500 people. Running these systems requires extensive training, experience and stamina. It is physically impossible for a guy like Stephen Paddock to operate such a system in the sustained, effective manner that we witnessed, especially when shooting from an elevated position which throws off all the ranging of the weapon system.

    Far from being a Navy Seal, Stephen Paddock is a retired accountant senior citizen with a gambling problem and a flabby physique. The only way he could have carried out this shooting is if he were transformed into a human superweapon through a magic wand. I’m calling this ‘Mission IMPOSSIBLE’ because of the physical impossibility of a retired, untrained senior citizen pulling this off.”

  461. Tony From Long Island

    Gene

    Working for the Internal Revenue Service is about as anti-social as you can get, aside from being a mass shooter. The IRS enforces the compulsory collection of taxes used to fund government warfare, police brutality and meddling in people’s affairs.

    How can there be a question whether that is anti-social?

    I have to agree with Jill on one thing . . . it’s a shame what has happened to this board, even in the 18 months I have been posting on here. It’s completely nonsense like this that dooms the LP to obscurity.

    Overnight, the Troofer nonsense went nuts. There are some days I just can’t take Andy and his delusions. Then there are some days where it just makes me laugh. Today is one of the former.

  462. Tony From Long Island

    Andy

    Here’s a video that the NRA made to encourage people to vote no on the Bloomberg backed gun control initiative that was on the ballot in Nevada last year.

    So?

  463. Tony From Long Island

    Jill

    I know that crack detectives Paulie, DL and Tony had this all figured out by this morning (Wow! In less than twenty-four hours!), but just for fun, I thought I’d post this.

    I’m glad you three told us there was only one shooter, or I might be confused by this.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-04/clark-county-sheriff-says-hard-believe-shooter-didnt-have-help-unless-hes-superman

    C’mon, Jill . . . Zerohedge? Really? I thought you were better than that. Don’t go down Andy’s path! Zero hedge isn’t even rated Right or Left . . . it’s rated as a conspiracy / pseudo science site!

    The “help” the sheriff was talking about was in relation to his possibility to escape. Funny how it’s only the RWNJ sites that talk about him having an accomplice . . .

    No other windows were broken to shoot out of. He had cameras set up outside his hotel room door. No one else left that room – dead or alive. Why are we even arguing about something that is such blatant false nonsense?

    https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/zero-hedge/

  464. paulie

    It’s axiomatic that the state always stands ready to take advantage of a tragedy. I don’t need a conspiracy theory for that.

    Of course the Democrats will talk about new gun legislation when this stuff happens. That’s a given. It’s also a given that they are in the minority right now and the Republicans are not likely to give them a majority on this. Republicans who cross party lines to support new gun legislation will be likely to lose in the primaries and they don’t want that.

  465. paulie

    All you did was ridicule the four or five posters that had different info than you.

    They didn’t have different info than me, just nonsense from disreputable sources. I already looked at a bunch of it, and it was predictably short on verifiable facts. And I already said I don’t rule out the possibility of a false flag in any particular shooting; it’s the idea that all or most of them are false flag that I find ridiculous.

  466. paulie

    It’s really hard to believe you listened to or watched the news, or you would have known that many eyewitnesses ha talked about more than one shooter.

    Confusion in crowds is common among eyewitnesses.

    Yeah, all caps. I am yelling

    Not a problem if you don’t make a habit of it.

    I think the deaths of 59 people should be properly investigated.

    So do I. I haven’t ruled out the possibility that Paddock was a Trump-hater, that he had help, or even that it was a false flag. But there’s no proof and no real evidence of any of these contentions, so the very premise of why this discussion is in this thread at all is faulty.

  467. paulie

    Better translation: Life is too short to waste much time on crackpots who prance around in public in satan tights and then have the comedic gall to question other people’s male masculinity.

    It’s nice to know some people like dL can translate English into English, even though Grundmann can’t.

  468. paulie

    Did you even watch the video above? Grundmann makes a strong libertarian argument in favor of privatization of education. Why are you so focused on criticizing the way he dresses to draw attention to his cause?

    Kind of like what I mentioned somewhere way above, if you give an hour long speech and cap it off by taking a shit on stage…nothing you said in that hour will ever matter.

    That short interview, viewed over 1000 times, probably did more to advance the cause of the liberty than anything dL has done in his life.

    The video did absolutely nothing to advance the cause of liberty, it just made Grundmann look ridiculous, and I have no idea what all dL has done in life…nor, in all likelihood, do you.

  469. dL

    Did you even watch the video above? Grundmann makes a strong libertarian argument in favor of privatization of education. Why are you so focused on criticizing the way he dresses to draw attention to his cause? That short interview, viewed over 1000 times, probably did more to advance the cause of the liberty than anything dL has done in his life.

    I think he made a stronger argument that he should kept away from pointed objects, including devil horns

  470. Tony From Long Island

    Paulie:

    Of course the Democrats will talk about new gun legislation when this stuff happens. That’s a given. It’s also a given that they are in the minority right now

    That’s not exactly true. Democrats hold a minority of seats in congress. They are not a minority of the American people. Hopefully the Supreme Court can rectify that in a few months.

  471. paulie

    Natural News is as expected off base. Paddock was not using full auto weapons, he was using semi-auto weapons with a bump stock modification that increased their rate of fire. He had multiple weapons precisely so he would not deal with jams or any other such issues. He busted out at least two windows so the room was no longer entirely enclosed. He did not closely aim his weapons but rather just sprayed the crowd. If what Natural News claims were true there would have been millions of people in this country with the training to know that immediately. And the LV sheriff only expressed amazement that Paddock got all that equipment up to the room by himself. I guess he never heard of multiple trips with a luggage cart?

  472. paulie

    No other windows were broken to shoot out of.

    My understanding is that there were two broken windows allowing gunsmoke to escape while he moved back and forth between them.

  473. paulie

    That’s not exactly true. Democrats hold a minority of seats in congress.

    That’s what I meant by in the minority.

    They are not a minority of the American people.

    If you want to talk about the American people, neither Democrats nor Republicans are in the majority – many people can’t vote, choose not to vote for a variety of reasons, or consider themselves independents. There are more registered Democrats than Republicans but neither one is a majority, even of registered voters, much less the whole population. But the American people was not what I was talking about – we were discussing passing legislation through congress and getting it signed into law. I just observed that the idea that the shooting was staged to push gun legislation seems unlikely since, with a Republican congress and president, it’s almost certain that such legislation will be defeated. That in no way prevents Democrats from proposing it, as one would expect, but my prediction is that it will not pass.

    Hopefully the Supreme Court can rectify that in a few months.

    How so?

  474. Tony From Long Island

    Paulie:

    No other windows were broken to shoot out of.

    My understanding is that there were two broken windows allowing gunsmoke to escape while he moved back and forth between them.

    That’s what I meant. The only windows broken were those HE shot out of. There was no other shooter. Do people not understand how echos work? There was a mad rush out of there. The last thing people were listening closely for was if there was another shooter. There wasn’t.

  475. Andy

    “Anthony Dlugos
    October 4, 2017 at 22:54
    I know its gonna disappoint a lot of you Troofers, but given the fact that there was little warning, no manifesto, and no apparent political/religious act to grind, I’ll put my money on some sort of run-of-the-mill organic brain disease.”

    Anthony, is there any incident like this that has ever happened that you think was a false flag?

    Do you even recognize incidents that even mainstream historians consider to have been false flags, like the sinking of the Lusitania, the Gulf of Tonkin “attack,” and the sinking of the USS Liberty?

    Are there any incidents where you don’t believe the official government story?

  476. Tony From Long Island

    Andy

    Anthony, is there any incident like this that has ever happened that you think was a false flag?

    Do you even recognize incidents that even mainstream historians consider to have been false flags, like the sinking of the Lusitania, the Gulf of Tonkin “attack,” and the sinking of the USS Liberty?

    Since my name is Anthony also, I will answer. If you are referring to any “mass shooting” in the last 20 years – no. Are there any that you DON’T think were “false flags?”

    Note of what you listed were “false flag” incidents.

    The Lusitania? Really? Your paranoia and gullibility knows no bounds.

    Lying about the details of an incident is not the same as them being “False flag” incidents.

  477. paulie

    It seems unlikely that new gun legislation will pass and be signed into law with a Republican congress and president. On the other hand, gun sales were down significantly since Trump was elected, up until this incident. Now they are way up. Bump stocks especially are selling through the roof on the speculation that they may be banned. Some people are making a lot of money here.

    Anyone want to spin any conspiracy conjecture off that one? Paddock apparently sent a lot of money to the Philippines shortly before he died. Maybe he had some inoperable disease, say of the brain, and got paid off? Who knows.

    Meanwhile, there are reports that Paddock scoped out other possible targets in Chicago and Boston, including the Lollapalooza festival. If true, that should put the nail in the coffin on any wild conjecture that he picked a country music concert because a higher percentage of country fans are Trump voters.

  478. paulie

    is there any incident like this that has ever happened that you think was a false flag?

    Yes, it’s certainly possible that there have been false flag events. It’s a waste of time to spend a lot of time trying to figure out which ones exactly, and it may be impossible to figure it out. It seems highly unlikely that all or most incidents are false flags.

    Do you even recognize incidents that even mainstream historians consider to have been false flags, like the sinking of the Lusitania, the Gulf of Tonkin “attack,” and the sinking of the USS Liberty?

    I’m not aware of any mainstream historians who believe the sinking of the USS Liberty was a “false flag.” Some people have claimed that the Israeli government was aware that it was a US ship, but I’m not sure if any mainstream historians are among those people. Gulf of Tonkin accident does appear to have been staged. Lusitania is the subject of some controversy but not a “false flag” per se: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Lusitania#Conspiracy_theories

    Paulie from Washington Heights

  479. Andy

    “paulie
    October 5, 2017 at 10:32
    ‘is there any incident like this that has ever happened that you think was a false flag?’
    Yes, it’s certainly possible that there have been false flag events. It’s a waste of time to spend a lot of time trying to figure out which ones exactly, and it may be impossible to figure it out. It seems highly unlikely that all or most incidents are false flags.”

    It is not a waste of time at all. It is vital in order to understand what is really going on in the world.

    We won’t have liberty as long as their are false flags, and as long as there are people who are naive enough to believe the official government stories, including those who are self proclaimed libertarians.

    A person simply does not understand what is going on if they refuse to examine, or outright dismiss, all of the conspiracies that happen in government.

    It is this attitude that led to the Libertarian Party nominating people like Bob Barr, Gary Johnson, Bill Weld, etc…

  480. paulie

    Nah. Total waste of time. I’ll be happy enough to concede that false flags are a possibility. I don’t have to get into the weeds of examining large amounts of evidence, much of it questionable and/or not available to the public, to determine which ones exactly. When you have someone who says every incident coming down the pike is a false flag…well, you know about the boy who cries wolf.

  481. Tony From Long Island

    Andy:

    e won’t have liberty as long as their are false flags

    Great! We have liberty now!

    as long as there are people who are naive enough to believe the official government stories, including those who are self proclaimed libertarians.

    Government lying about details of an event is not the same as them being the perpetrators.

    Don’t you have any hobbies other than spouting Troofer nonsense? Do you play an instrument? Crochet? Put together puzzles? Download snuff porn? Walk through a beautiful fall afternoon? Anything?

    You have a sickness and the sooner you admit that, the sooner you can get the help you need.

  482. DJ

    “You have a sickness and the sooner you admit that, the sooner you can get the help you need.”

    Sowing seeds has never been considered a sickness. Their production is irrelevant.

    However, being obsessed with another person is a sickness. Refer to the statement in quotation marks.

    It also could be pointed out you claim to be at work.
    An inquiring mind wants to know: Are you paid to stalk Andy? Or just to post your obsessions about your perceptions of others problems?
    Do you punch out while playing on a political message board, or do you charge your employer for your play time?

  483. DJ

    “much of it questionable and/or not available to the public,”

    If there are links it is available to the public. Questionable is what should be used to judge media (and gov’t) stories, many, if not most, don’t pass a smell test, and what they make public lacks credibility…..so, what do you use to determine if something is worth the time or the effort? Your opinion? Do others opinions (who post links for at least some sort of substantiation) not warrant an effort of at least looking or reading?

    Or, are you admitting you’ve wasted your time in the past to look at all the information (available to any who are curious) and made sound decisions, with reason, that everyone else, except you and those who think like you, is crazy?

    That’s not very open minded. Nor does it appear to be very libertarian. It may be Libertarian, but there is a difference. Your continued attacks on Andy and the info he posts indicates a belief of the “official” story, which as we all know, is rarely, if ever, the whole story rendering it not true.

    Personally, I don’t read the links or watch the videos. I detest video’s and most of what he posts I’ve read in one form or another, but, I don’t attack him, or his posts.

    I know he likely correct in his assumptions, and I have (in the past) read many, many, many articles (most of them from 911truth.org) and there are many very intelligent people who question the “official” stories.

    In regards to this Vegas mess, I read a story about the shooter being on Valium….. I’ve not seen that discussed here, but, the “official” stories have a lot of blank spaces and some convenient findings.
    Is it a false flag? I don’t know. But what I do know is; we will never get the whole story. That makes in not true, so calling it a false flag is a legitimate endeavor.

    I saw this morning Gingrich has already conceded “more” fed gun laws are needed. That adds fuel to an already incredibly hot fire. He is “respected” as a Republican and an Historian. I think he’s extremely intelligent and his opinions are listened to. That alone is enough to consider a false flag, but, add in that idiot from Ca who has already penned another law is reminiscent of the laws submitted after 911.

    BTW, Republicans were in control on 911 and took away more liberties in a few short weeks than democrats have in a life time.

    So yeah, it could be another false flag.

  484. paulie

    TL; DR. The bottom line is that it is not worth the time to get into the endless reams of research you can do about specific conspiracy conjecture. I’m more interested in policy, which is not dependent on whodunit.

  485. paulie

    I did catch the end of your comment accidentally.

    “BTW, Republicans were in control on 911 and took away more liberties in a few short weeks than democrats have in a life time.”

    No doubt, but no new gun laws were passed, which seems to be the only likely upshot of this one. Since the perpetrator is not being painted as being connected with foreign countries or any organized domestic groups I’m not seeing a big push on that stuff which is the usual area of interest of Republicans – ramping up the warfare state and the police state. He’s not even being portrayed as particularly mentally ill so I’m not seeing much of a push for mandatory psychiatric care being ramped up. All the chatter is about guns, and I don’t think that will go anywhere with Republicans in office.

  486. Anthony Dlugos

    “In a 2013 article in Scientific American Mind, psychologist Sander van der Linden argues there is converging scientific evidence that:
    (1) people who believe in one conspiracy are likely to espouse others (even when contradictory);
    (2) in some cases, conspiracy ideation has been associated with paranoia and schizotypy;
    (3) conspiracist worldviews tend to breed mistrust of well-established scientific principles, such as the association between smoking and cancer or global warming and CO2 emissions; and
    (4) conspiracy ideation often leads people to see patterns where none exist.

    -Van der Linden also coined the term The Conspiracy-Effect.”

  487. Tony From Long Island

    DJ:

    “You have a sickness and the sooner you admit that, the sooner you can get the help you need.”

    Sowing seeds has never been considered a sickness. Their production is irrelevant.

    However, being obsessed with another person is a sickness. Refer to the statement in quotation marks.

    It also could be pointed out you claim to be at work.
    An inquiring mind wants to know: Are you paid to stalk Andy? Or just to post your obsessions about your perceptions of others problems?
    Do you punch out while playing on a political message board, or do you charge your employer for your play time?

    Anyone who defends his conspiracy theories is equally deluded.

    You need to work on your definition of “stalk.”

    Why are YOU obsessed with ME? hmmm. . . . . well you think Andy is just dandy . . .so that says a lot about you.

  488. Luke

    “In a 2013 article in Scientific American Mind, psychologist Sander van der Linden argues there is converging scientific evidence that:
    (1) people who believe in one conspiracy are likely to espouse others (even when contradictory);
    (2) in some cases, conspiracy ideation has been associated with paranoia and schizotypy;
    (3) conspiracist worldviews tend to breed mistrust of well-established scientific principles, such as the association between smoking and cancer or global warming and CO2 emissions; and
    (4) conspiracy ideation often leads people to see patterns where none exist.

    -Van der Linden also coined the term The Conspiracy-Effect.”

    And just who is this mysterious Sander van der Linden? My sources tell me he is a secret Jewish communist and member of the Learned Elders of Zion, a high-ranked Freemason spotted at several Bilderberger and CFR events who was also seen when the UFO crashed in Roswell, NM, on the grassy knoll in Dallas when Kennedy was shot, near the World Trade Center on 9/11 and hiding in the woods at Sandy Hook. As one might expect he has worked with CIA and British and Israeli intelligence agencies. He also held a fairly high ranking but suspiciously low profile position in the Hillary Clinton campaigns in 2008 and 2016. Tell everyone you know that this man needs to be investigated thoroughly!

  489. Luke

    I have in my possession, a grainy photo of someone who looks sort of but not really like Sander van der Linden in a pink “pussy hat” at an anti-Trump rally. He is clearly seen wearing monogrammed cufflinks that say SL and a belt buckle that says “natural”, a clear reference to Nature Publishing Group, the publishers of Scientific American Mind magazine. Who else could it possibly be?

  490. Tony From Long Island

    Thank you Luke for calling out the nut jobs on their nuttery. Watch out or DJ will accuse you of stalking the nut bags.

    I think Sander van der Linden is a big supporter of Bill Weld 2020!

  491. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    ” well established scientific principles, such as the association between…..global warming and CO2 emissions ”

    English translation – If you don’t believe in the fairy tale of so-called ” global warming ” ( now changed to the new advertising/marketing/Social Engineering term of ” climate change ” ) you are a mental case, ” nutjob,” fill-in-the-blank.

    I have to give credit to The Plantation Masters of our country. They really know how to keep the goyim in check. Of course it helps to have plenty of gullible progressives/liberals ready and trained by the public school system to swallow whatever nonsence The Empire puts out without the slightest peep of protest.

  492. paulie

    I have to give credit to The Plantation Masters of our country. They really know how to keep the goyim in check.

    Whoomp, there it is…

  493. Luke

    Is that the then future President Obama in the screencap of that video above? It sort of looks like him. And if I’m not mistaken that is a map of his native country of Kenya on his ring!

  494. Luke

    Politifact? Seriously? They are a biased left wing fake news front for the Zionists, man. C’mon, you can do better than that! What does Texe Marrs say? Or Jeff Rense? Give me someone credible like that, not that politifact swill!

  495. Andy

    So nobody but me finds it odd how every few months, there’s a big shooting incident that happens in different parts of the country, that has little or no motive, and all kinds of strange circumstances and unanswered questions and inconsistencies surrounding it, and the media hypes these things up, and they are always followed by calls to pass new laws?

    All of these are just coincidences?

    Random people just “snap” and start killing a bunch of random people for little or no reason.

    Why would some 64 year old guy who has no military training, and who has never been in any type of combat, and who has enough money to live comfortably for the rest of his life, check into a nice casino hotel, hang out there for several days, bring a bunch of guns with him, and then start killing a bunch of people at random who were at an outdoor concert next to his hotel?

    Was this guy just a “lone nut,” or is there something more sinister going on in here? Methinks the latter.

  496. paulie

    The sad fact is that there way more people that fantasize about doing that kind of stuff than follow through and actually do it. If anything I am surprised that it does not happen more often. There are a lot of people carrying widespread hatred of themselves and other people around in them, festering. As for Paddock he was reportedly suffering some sort of growing physical and mental deterioration in the last few months. He was complaining of various symptoms, taking valium and exhibiting paranoia. His gun collecting accelerated and he was gambling more heavily.

  497. Tony From Long Island

    Andy:

    So nobody but me finds it odd how every few months, there’s a big shooting incident that happens in different parts of the country, that has little or no motive, and all kinds of strange circumstances and unanswered questions and inconsistencies surrounding it, and the media hypes these things up, and they are always followed by calls to pass new laws

    Are you the ONLY conspiracy theorist nut job? No.

    Yeah, it’s outrageous that the evil media “hypes up” mass murder. That this is the way you see it is part of your problem. There’s not an ounce of empathy in your entire being. In place of a soul there is a bottomless pit of blackness.

  498. DJ

    Tony From Long Island
    October 5, 2017 at 14:48

    DJ:

    “You have a sickness and the sooner you admit that, the sooner you can get the help you need.”

    Sowing seeds has never been considered a sickness. Their production is irrelevant.

    However, being obsessed with another person is a sickness. Refer to the statement in quotation marks.

    It also could be pointed out you claim to be at work.
    An inquiring mind wants to know: Are you paid to stalk Andy? Or just to post your obsessions about your perceptions of others problems?
    Do you punch out while playing on a political message board, or do you charge your employer for your play time?

    Anyone who defends his conspiracy theories is equally deluded.

    You need to work on your definition of “stalk.”

    Why are YOU obsessed with ME? hmmm. . . . . well you think Andy is just dandy . . .so that says a lot about you.
    ……………

    I don’t “need”. Needs are air, water, food, shelter, clothing. I have plenty of each.

    Do you stalk Andy on company time? Inquiring minds *want* to know. Does your employer know you’re playing at being smart on a political message board his time? Your opinion of what I think about Andy is your opinion. I said I believe a lot of what he posts and have read most of it elsewhere but detest videos. That’s not saying I think he is dandy. That’s your word trying (and failing) to be cute though it may entertain some others, but probably not your employer. Unless, of course, you’re a paid troll.

  499. Tony From Long Island

    You lost me at “paid troll.” So 2016.

    You seem obsessed with what I do while at work, while knowing nothing of what my actual job duties entail. If I neglected any of my job duties, do you think I would still be here 18 months later? I do shipping and receiving. When there is nothing to either ship, nor receive . . . . .

    Enquiring “minds?” It seems you are the only enquiring mind, unless, of course, you have multiple personalities.

    Calling someone out on conspiracy crap is not “stalking.” I will continue to call out conspiracy crap. I will also continue to point out people who use dubious sources.

    I will also continue to add my opinion to any topic that I feel strongly about, as I have been doing since I started posting here about 18 months ago. Many people disagree with my opinions, but if you want to scream into an echo chamber, you won’t find much fulfillment.

  500. paulie

    DJ is another one of those who is probably best ignored. I should follow my own advice on that more as well.

    I do shipping and receiving. When there is nothing to either ship, nor receive . . . . .

    I’ll vouch for that one. I have had shipping and receiving jobs in the past, before I petitioned. Mine did not last as long. We did not carry internet access around with us in those days and I was never very good at picking up a broom and looking busy when we had down times. The longest lasting job I ever had which was not my own business was taking weather readings once an hour at the airport at night. I was there by myself and only had to work about 5 minutes out of every hour. I only had a desktop computer back then but I actually did carry it to work sometimes. Our internet access in those days was dialup. I think I actually did hook up the modem to the office phone and call the university to get online a few times but I may have just worked on college papers and played cards on the computer at the airport, I can’t remember.

  501. paulie

    BTW, this article is now the 8th article (out of almost 18,000 at this point) in IPR’s history to have over 600 comments.