The KN@PP Stir Podcast, Episode 140: Special Broadcast from Area 51


Originally posted at Kn@ppster

Topics covered of possible interest to IPR readers include the LP Mises Caucus and entryism into the LP of Florida by white nationalists; fellow IPR writer Thomas Knapp answers a question by yours truly, Paulie.

Some background on the Florida situation for IPR readers who are not already familiar with it:

Joe Wendt withdraws from US Senate campaign, Libertarian Party of Florida active membership

Paul Stanton makes motion to remove Ryan Ramsey from Florida LP exec comm, then resigns himself

Paul Frankel: Why Libertarians need to denounce the Alt Right and white nationalists and don’t need to worry about libertarian socialists and antifa

Paul Stanton: LP Florida Chair Marcos Miralles Must Resign

Paul Stanton: Perhaps “Working with White Nationalists” Is Not the Best Approach?

Paul Stanton: Endorsements for the LPF Convention

74% to 26%: Florida Libertarians reject Invictus, nominate Stanton for Senate in Aug. 30 primary

Paul Stanton Announces Campaign for Florida U.S. Senate Seat

Orlando Sentinel: ‘Goat-blood drinking Orlando man had key billing for Charlottesville rally’

Liberty Against Fascism: ‘Restating the Obvious: An Open Letter from the Libertarian Movement’

Joe Wendt for US Senate: “New LP of Florida Chair undermines Libertarian principles in favor of white nationalists”

Knapp, Dickey cover 2017 Libertarian Party of Florida convention

Libertarians United Against Fascism write open letter to LNC; Starchild responds

Alexandria Brown: Response to Ryan Ramsey and Timeline of Events

Libertarians United Against Fascism: ‘To the Cowardly Collaborators of the Libertarian Party of Florida, and a Call to Action Against Them’

David Colborne: Augustus Sol Invictus Is Not Welcome In My State

Update on Augustus Invictus criminal allegations and retraction of censure from Florida LP; possible disaffiliation by LNC floated

Knapp: Replace LP of Florida Exec Comm and Bylaws

Police Report: Augustus Invictus accused of domestic violence, sexual assault, kidnapping, terroristic threats

Augustus Invictus Announces Republican 2018 Senate Run

Augustus Sol Invictus: Statement Concerning My Registration with the Republican Party

Update on rape, assault, kidnapping and witness tampering allegations against Augustus Invictus

Augustus Invictus: Statement Regarding the Antifa Boycott of the Mid-Atlantic Liberty Festival

Augustus Invictus Discusses the Libertarian Party

“Death to Hillary Clinton, death to George Soros” says Augustus Invictus at Liberty Fest NYC; releases new book

In interview, Augustus Invictus says he supports eco-terrorism and calls John McAfee a “total degenerate”

Augustus Invictus: Letter to the People of Europe

Rose City Antifa report on Augustus Invictus visit to Portland, OR

FL: Augustus Invictus campaigns in front of white nationalist skinhead music banner (Note: Ramsey often displays the same banner)

Northwest Florida Libertarian Party Disavows Augustus Sol Invictus as Libertarian Candidate for U.S. Senate

Cara Schulz: Augustus Sol Invictus and the Libertarian Party of Florida

Libertarian Party of Florida condemns Augustus Invictus, calls his advocacy of war and eugenics “abhorrent”

Thread for Questions to Augustus Invictus, Senatorial Candidate Hopeful for the Libertarian Party of Florida

Augustus Invictus: Official Response to the Criticisms of Chairman Wyllie

Augustus Invictus Calls for “Total Insurrection”

Augustus Invictus: A Declaration of the Failings of the Federal Government

Augustus Invictus announces Libertarian candidacy for Florida U.S. Senate seat being vacated by Marco Rubio

Daily Beast: ‘The Insidious Libertarian-to-Alt-Right Pipeline’

Former Libertarian, now fascist, Christopher Cantwell gathers national attention

Chuck Moulton: ‘LP conventions, avoid alt-right / white supremacist event speakers’

Free Speech and No Platform: A Brief Libertarian Case for Silencing Fascists

Libertarian Party of Pinellas County Calls for the Libertarian Candidate for US Senate to Disassociate from the LPF

Thomas L. Knapp: Slow News Days and Third Party Politics: Attack of the Goat-Sacrificing Roman Sun God!

Chair and Vice-Chair of the Libertarian Party of Florida Resign Effective Immediately

Matt Wright: Why I Won’t Vote for Just Any Libertarian

LP Release: “Libertarians condemn bigotry as irrational and repugnant”

Nicholas Sarwark, Arvin Vohra call out Jeff Deist and the Mises Institute’s “blood and soil” politics

Nicholas Sarwark: ‘Nationalism and racism is a sickness that flows from weakness and lack of anything other than the privilege of birth to be proud of’

LSLA 2017: ‘Physically Removed, So to Speak: Making the LP Inhospitable to the Alt-Right and Other Nazis’

Gary Johnson condemns racist violence in Charlottesville

And on the Mises Caucus:

Libertarian Party Mises Caucus: ‘Taking Over The Libertarian Party With Michael Heise’

Libertarian Party Mises Caucus: ‘A Challenge to the Status Quo’

121 thoughts on “The KN@PP Stir Podcast, Episode 140: Special Broadcast from Area 51

  1. Anon-Tipper

    Mises Caucus: hates Sarwark, loves Tom Woods, the Mises Institute, and Rockwell, thinks that there’s a socialist infiltration problem, doesn’t think that there’s an alt-right problem….okay yeah that’s not cancer./s

  2. Luke

    Also, great list of articles in the “background on the Florida situation for IPR readers who are not already familiar with it” section of the article. You can learn all you need about this by reading thru those discussions.

  3. Andy

    The Mises Caucus also does not like Gary Johnson and Bill Weld, and they know that the Ron Paul r3VOLution was the biggest and best thing to ever happen to the libertarian movement in this country, and they know that the LP has failed to capitalize on this, and they know that the LP is an organization that is failing on multiple fronts.

    The Mises Caucus has the blessing of Ron Paul and Andrew Napolitano, and they apparently recently received a $5,000 donation from Patrick Bryne 9f Overstock.com, who has been a guest speaker at several Free State Project events, and who accepts payment in Bitcoin at Overstock.com. The Mises Caucus also has the support of libertarian rapper/singer, Eric July, of the band Backwordz, who are an up and coming group.

    The Mises Caucus is also reaching out to the cryptocurrency community, and the guy who started the Mises Caucus attended the Nexus cryptocurrency convention that was recently held in Aspen, Colorado.

    The Mises Caucus is a breath of fresh air, and I hope they kick ass in New Orleans in May at the Libertarian National Convention.

  4. Anon-Tipper

    Ron Paul: anti-immigration, defense of marriage act, newsletters, Mises Institute
    Andrew Napolitano: cited the Institute for Historical Review in a recent book of his

    Eric July: explicitly said that libertarians should pander to white christians (I know he’s black, you don’t need to say it as a defense of him), ancaps are the only “real libertarians,” and that we should physically remove communists (and if I recall correctly, statists in general)

    The paleos should really just join the Constitution Party, lots of great paleos have been there over the years, like Joseph Sobran, the esteemed lecturer at the Institute for Historical Review, writer for American Renaissance, and sweetheart of the Mises Institute.

  5. Thomas L. Knapp

    “I predict that this caucus will result in essentially nothing”

    That depends.

    Lots of people assume that if they’re 1) right (in their own opinion of course) and 2) make a lot of noise on Facebook, that will translate into victory on the convention floor.

    That’s not how it works.

    What works is convincing a few hundred people to actually go to the actual convention and actually vote the actual caucus line/slate on the actual issues/candidates.

    It’s not nearly as easy as it sounds.

    I guess we’ll find out next year whether or not they’re 1) willing to do the work, 2) able to do the work and 3) have a constituency as supportive and motivated as they think they do.

  6. Anon-Tipper

    “I guess we’ll find out next year whether or not they’re 1) willing to do the work, 2) able to do the work and 3) have a constituency as supportive and motivated as they think they do.”

    Should be interesting to follow.

  7. paulie Post author

    It’s concerning that both the Mises Caucus and the Florida boneheads are getting together to support a chair candidate.

  8. Anon-Tipper

    Yeah, I noticed that looking at Facebook.

    Found an interview with him: (https://71republic.com/2017/10/09/71-republic-exclusive-interview-with-joshua-smith-candidate-for-chairman-of-the-libertarian-national-committee/). His campaign shirt has Rothbard and Mises on it with the text “Back to Basics.” He said that he wasn’t necessarily upset that the Mises Institute was called out, but thinks that the socialists should’ve been talked about too. (I don’t know dude, there were LvMI connected groups at Charlottesville, doesn’t seem relevant)

    Meme he posted complaining about the Mises Institute being criticized and the socialist infiltration:
    https://www.facebook.com/272051026634131/photos/a.272910696548164.1073741829.272051026634131/274077633098137/?type=3&theater

    “3. I think the Mises Institute is a pretty successful libertarian Institute, and again, my biggest gripe is marketing, and member retention. Many many followers of the party are fans of the Institute, and Jeff Deist, and certainly Tom Woods. I believe it was bad PR for the party to denounce them while not denouncing some of the organizations within the party that are an actual threat to our SoP.”

    I don’t really know enough about him to make a judgement, but I think the Mises/Florida crew might see him as sympathetic. Or it could just be that they really want Sarwark gone. Joshua could also just not really know what’s going on with LvMI, it’s possible.

  9. Anon-Tipper

    Oh I know, that’s what worries me about him, he just can’t be serious in thinking that there’s a socialist threat.

  10. paulie Post author

    Unfortunately I found that same attitude prevalent in the radical caucus, including top leadership. There did not seem to be anyone even willing to make a serious counter-argument, they were either too busy, too uninterested in having critical comments, or with some of the less high up participants only willing to engage the headline without even bothering to read the article claiming I was trolling for clicks. I lost interest in the radical caucus at that point.

  11. Anon-Tipper

    It’s very concerning, I can’t wrapped my head around the concept that we should never criticize people for their views that I see from some of these people. They seem to only care about their actions. (But not really, since they’ll verbally attack you for criticizing and ignore intimidation threats).

    I have some hope, there’s some libertarians out there know what’s going on.

    The Jack News had this on their twitter (part of their series on the alt-right):
    “Ludwig von Mises would be ashamed of what it has become.” And that the liberty movement was going to experience a split because of people like Hoppe.

    And Reason had made a video about the alt-right, that caused Lauren Southern to say the Libertarian Party and libertarianism was stupid; I hope that causes some of her followers to leave the LP/libertarianism.

    Steve Davies from IEA said in a speech for Cato recently that the far right was the real problem, the far left was not a threat right now, this is where our focus should be. (Some pretty bad stuff happening in Europe with actual nazi parties gaining support)

    Unfortunately, the same people that are dismissing the alt-right threat, tend to not like Reason and Cato (at least from my own observation), so I don’t know how they’ll wake them up to it. My (uneducated) guess is there might be a real split in the libertarian world, I think it’s always been there, but it might come to a point where we must deal with this threat.

  12. dL

    Well worth reading and on the money:

    To be fair, “paleo” for Rothbard was one of many strategies that he threw up against the wall to see if it would stick. It is not clear if he had, say, put that forth in his mid-life instead of at his end of life he would have stuck around it any longer than he stuck around the Black Panthers or Che Guevara.

    Hoppe, however, used the paleo strategy as a theoretic launching point for a critical theory breach(in this instance, a white identity politics version of “cultural marxism”) of American libertarianism. And I have to laugh at a headline like “What Hoppe gets wrong.” What does he get right? Frankly, I don’t think he is in the business of getting anything right. I think the ayatollah of property is in the business of issuing “we will crush them” fatwas from afar, eagerly anticipating his day of victorious return from exile by jet from heathen France Turkey.

    But it would a mistake to single-handedly attribute the libertarian “alt-right moment” to Hoppe. It has been greatly abetted by 70 years of right-wing libertarian intellectual orientation. And that orientation certainly includes the likes of Tom “Build a Free Society In Iraq” Palmer and David “Ronald Reagan was the greatest advocate of limited government in my lifetime” Boaz. If libertarianism is presented as a false dilemma between Marxist victim-identity politics and the beltway crack pipe, then I’m not sure who wins. But I know what loses.

    RE: Mises. His book, “Liberalism in the Classical Tradition” does a fine job deconstructing the “blood and soil” scam the flim-flam artists at LvM are pushing. But I imagine the specter of a Frankfurt intrusion into his economic theory would really have the old man rolling around in his grave…you know, if people could actually roll around in their graves.

    That being said, I’m not an Austrian economics adherent. And it’s a mistake to conflate libertarianism w/ Austrian economics. One does not necessarily have anything to with the other. And whatever insights Mises or Rothbard had re: political economy, those insights have been expressed before…and without any of the attendant cultural baggage.

  13. robert capozzi

    dL: It has been greatly abetted by 70 years of right-wing libertarian intellectual orientation. And that orientation certainly includes the likes of Tom “Build a Free Society In Iraq” Palmer and David “Ronald Reagan was the greatest advocate of limited government in my lifetime” Boaz.

    me: Much to unpack here. I’m assuming these are direct quotes. That said, I’m pretty sure the Cato crowd opposed the Iraq War. Agree?

    If so, then I’m not sure TP’s quote is “right wing.” If it was said after the Iraq War started, saying that is consistent with his global Pied Piper routine.

    As for DB’s statement, I’d like to hear it in context. I’d be VERY surprised if that’s his unqualified view. Now, if he was comparing RR to other presidents in his lifetime, that would make a lot of sense. I mean, would you pick LBJ as the greatest advocate? BHO? GHWB?

    Dude did say, “In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem,” after all.

  14. paulie Post author

    But it would a mistake to single-handedly attribute the libertarian “alt-right moment” to Hoppe. It has been greatly abetted by 70 years of right-wing libertarian intellectual orientation.

    Great point.

  15. paulie Post author

    Now, if he was comparing RR to other presidents in his lifetime, that would make a lot of sense.

    No, it would make a lot of nonsense. See Ivan Eland on president rankings. We’ve discussed this before. Reagan was among the worst. The least harmful recent presidents have generally been Democrats.

    Dude did say, “In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem,” after all.

    He lied, and presided over an expansion of government at the fastest clip after FDR and before GWB, especially its nastiest parts – the military-industrial and police-prison-industrial complexes – and contrary to his rhetoric, unabated expansion of the welfare state (with increased corporate welfare rate of growth) all financed by a major expansion of the debt.

  16. robert capozzi

    pf,

    “He lied” is an extraordinary claim. Are you a mindreader?

    Now it is possible that RR’s decades of lessarchist statements was a colossal ruse; perhaps he was some kind of “pinko plant” or something?

    Personally, I don’t buy such conspiracy theories. I think it’s far more likely that RR is like most people. They have basic principles but that situations unfold and the expedient prevails in ways that seem to contradict one’s principles.

    The track records of presidents are mixed bags at best, and for me none of them are praiseworthy. I voted for Clark, and I may have held my nose and voted for Grand NAPster Bergland. Reagan didn’t trick me. While I believe that he was in the vaguest sense a lessarchist, he was more committed to his Cold Warrior stance, which made him susceptible to selling out on his lessarchist domestic impulses. It was a greater good argument, I suspect, and while that’s a perfectly fine standard, I believe the basis for the judgment was deeply flawed.

    Personally, I think presidents get too much credit and too much blame for what happens during their terms. Most events in life are just happenstance, and presidents are not immune from that. All of them miss opportunities for improvement, and I attribute that to a lack of commitment to peace and liberty as a political True North.

    So, to me, they all rank poorly because they were all quite confused about what is important. Eland’s measurement of wrinkles distracts us from the bigger picture that they were all —
    in effect — morearchists and all were committed to less peace, not more.

  17. paulie Post author

    “He lied” is an extraordinary claim. Are you a mindreader?

    No, a history reader. There’s what he said and there’s what he actually did. We’ve been over it in quite some detail on past threads. And it wasn’t just the cold war; his record as Governor was just as profligate, and it took Jerry Brown to clean up the fiscal mess and rein in the out of control spending growth of the Reagan years. Counterintuitive to those who equate disingenuous conservative small government rhetoric with any kind of real “lessarchism” but not surprising to those of us who know better.

  18. paulie Post author

    So, to me, they all rank poorly

    The rankings are comparative.

    Also, note that Reagan’s proposed budgets to Congress spent even more money than the Democrats proposed or wound up spending. He did not sell out. He lied. Conned. Cheated. BSed. Pick your preferred term.

  19. robert capozzi

    pf: Counterintuitive to those who equate disingenuous conservative small government rhetoric with any kind of real “lessarchism” but not surprising to those of us who know better.

    me: What’s your hypothesis about why “conservative small government rhetoric” is universally disingenuous?

    Perhaps if we understand the disingenuousness, we can present a more serviceable, vigorous, and durable alternative. (Obviously I don’t believe NAPsterism qualifies.)

    And do you find there to be corollary disingenuousness among liberals and progressives?

  20. Anon-Tipper

    Paulie: Thanks for linking those articles, hope more people read them.

    dL: “But it would a mistake to single-handedly attribute the libertarian “alt-right moment” to Hoppe. It has been greatly abetted by 70 years of right-wing libertarian intellectual orientation.”
    This is a good point, there’s always been a sort of right-wing populist fusionism happening. I don’t know if I’m remembering correctly, I think I heard this on one of Cato’s podcasts, that there were Perot supporters calling themselves libertarians.

    And: “If libertarianism is presented as a false dilemma between Marxist victim-identity politics and the beltway crack pipe, then I’m not sure who wins. But I know what loses.” Exactly, I think that’s what we’re seeing.

  21. Anon-Tipper

    I follow some of the work the Adam Smith Institute does in the UK, I found this video from their Research Director from 2013,(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rptm0yyvPik, you don’t really need to watch it, the only relevant part is in the beginning) where he kind of saw where this right-wing fusionism for libertarians was headed and suggested that we break off from the Republican/Conservatives and position ourselves in the middle (which The Jack News suggests in the articles above).

    I think it was probably a mistake to attach libertarianism to the right (maybe it was right at the time because of the severe economic problems around the world and they were the only ones that would listen, but it should’ve ended a decades ago) the success of libertarian economic reforms to turn around the stagflation problem (Friedman on Reagan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ASAOrsKqiI, Thatcher said Hayek’s Constitution of Liberty inspired her, but I know Reagan also increased debt so I don’t know why Friedman still supported him, I guess just for the inflation) allowed the right to ride those coattails to stay in power and I think it allowed the worst of right to wiggle its way in.

    Goldwater: “Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they’re sure trying to do so, it’s going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can’t and won’t compromise. I know, I’ve tried to deal with them.”

  22. robert capozzi

    more…

    As for this work being comparative, I used the word “wrinkle” on purpose. If there is no change in the overall trend, I’m unwilling to draw any real conclusions about the virtues of Jimmy Carter over Bush the Elder. This is not to say that I don’t acknowledge that Carter did a few things I supported, like airline deregulation.

    Neither one gets peace. None of them did.

    So I’m not surprised that all administrations in my lifetime are deeply net negative. Perturbations in that trend don’t interest me, and illustrate nothing of consequence. For me.

  23. dL

    As for DB’s statement, I’d like to hear it in context. I’d be VERY surprised if that’s his unqualified view. Now, if he was comparing RR to other presidents in his lifetime, that would make a lot of sense. I mean, would you pick LBJ as the greatest advocate? BHO? GHWB?

    [Remembering Ronald Reagan]
    https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/remembering-ronald-reagan

    That said, I’m pretty sure the Cato crowd opposed the Iraq War. Agree?

    No, they did not. Not uniformly. Indeed, I’m pretty sure the anti-war faction at Cato had become a minority at the time.

    If so, then I’m not sure TP’s quote is “right wing.” If it was said after the Iraq War started, saying that is consistent with his global Pied Piper routine.

    Palmer supported both the war and the Iraqi occupation.
    https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/catosletterv3n3.pdf

    It’s hard not to view Palmer as a dupe of American imperialism. Recently, there was a pretty good Intercept article on the relationship of the Atlas Network w/ Latin American politics…and the Trump Administration

    https://theintercept.com/2017/08/09/atlas-network-alejandro-chafuen-libertarian-think-tank-latin-america-brazil/

  24. paulie Post author

    Not surprising because he emailed the whole LNC just a few days ago that his favorite band is Skrewdriver, but that’s OK, because you don’t have to agree with them to cover their music any more than you have to agree with the politics of the Grateful Dead if you cover their songs. Yep, no difference there. And also if you are against nazi “RAC” it must be because you are a communist.

  25. paulie Post author

    . If there is no change in the overall trend, I’m unwilling to draw any real conclusions about the virtues of Jimmy Carter over Bush the Elder.

    In which case, any statement that Reagan was more freedom-oriented is still wrong.

  26. paulie Post author

    I think it was probably a mistake to attach libertarianism to the right

    I’ve been saying that for at least 25 years, and even before that I may have been more apt to convert to libertarianism maybe 5 or more years earlier if it had not had the stink of right wing conservatism all over it.

    Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they’re sure trying to do so, it’s going to be a terrible damn problem.

    Roy Moore is a good case in point.

  27. paulie Post author

    What’s your hypothesis about why “conservative small government rhetoric” is universally disingenuous?

    It’s aimed at the rich, saying look, we aren’t going to tax or regulate you as much, but we’ll provide all the protection you want, plenty of crony corporatist pork, and enough regulation to keep upstart competition from rising up to challenge you and to keep your employees from striking out on their own as entrepreneurs. We’ll run up the debt to pay for it all, and other people’s kids and grandkids can pay the bill after your income is stowed away in shelters. Also, we will let you keep all your profits and then some while socializing many of your risks and costs.

    And it’s aimed at the middle class and white working class, saying look, we’ll keep all your guaranteed benefits in place but we won’t give so much to those lazy good for nothing minorities, single women, foreigners, etc., and we’ll keep all the scary Muslims, Mexicans, gays, transgenders, hippies, punks, anarchists, communists, feminists, and other threats real, imagined or exaggerated at bay, all with the force of the state, but hey, that’s not big government – only welfare for poor non-whites and taxes and regulations on wealthy campaign donors are big government. Throw in gun laws and it’s enough to fool a lot of gullible libertarians into thinking these people are somehow our allies. And to fool a few conservatives into thinking they are libertarians, long enough to part with a few shekels.

    And do you find there to be corollary disingenuousness among liberals and progressives?

    Yes, but it doesn’t pass itself off as small government per se. However, it does sometime pass itself off as antiwar and/or civil libertarian, and in practice progressive politicians equally fail at delivering on any of that either.

  28. Anon-Tipper

    “Not surprising because he emailed the whole LNC just a few days ago that his favorite band is Skrewdriver.”

    Jesus, I think I saw that, emailing them the lyrics to “prove” it’s not a nazi band…

    “I’ve been saying that for at least 25 years, and even before that I may have been more apt to convert to libertarianism maybe 5 or more years earlier if it had not had the stink of right wing conservatism all over it.”

    This reminds me of Jonathan Haidt’s study of libertarian psychology:
    http://righteousmind.com/largest-study-of-libertarian-psych/

    He found that libertarians and progressives run into each other more often, through culture, schooling, etc. I think in a way, the goals of libertarianism are closer to the left, after all Bastiat sat on the left of the French assembly . The conservatives want to preserve our current society, but libertarians want to change it. You can see this going back a while, with Jefferson, Paine, and Adam Smith’s opposition to aristocracy. And the thought that pops up every once in a while, that we should correct for historical injustice, examples can be found in Nozick’s ASU and James Buchanan proposing a 100% inheritance tax (and more going back to the classical liberals). These sound hardly conservative.

  29. Anon-Tipper

    But I think this might be part of the mini culture war we’re experience in the libertarian world, with the cosmotarians on one side and the more right wing (in culture) on the other. But, I don’t know, I’m just riffing.

  30. robert capozzi

    dL: David “Ronald Reagan was the greatest advocate of limited government in my lifetime” Boaz.

    Actual DB: “Reagan was the most eloquent spokesman for limited government of our time…. His actions in office did not always fulfill those promises. Government spending continued to grow, there was little devolution of power to the states, and the cost of federal regulation continued to increase.”

    me: Advocate and spokesman are different, I’m sure you agree. Boaz does note that RR failed on many fronts. I’m sure that RR had staffers like Martin Anderson and Doug Bandow who used the L label for themselves.

    I don’t see where Palmer says he supported the Iraq War in the link you provided. Can you point to a specific place where he supported the war, or will you once again run away?

    The Intercept article sounds like Atlas is doing good work in Latin America.

    What is your agenda?

  31. robert capozzi

    pf: it does sometime pass itself off as antiwar and/or civil libertarian, and in practice progressive politicians equally fail at delivering on any of that either.

    me: So, yes, I agree that much of your critique of the left and right, especially both of their propensity for disingenuousness.

    Unfortunately, The Nolan’s hope that an LP “will be able to hasten the already emerging coalition between the libertarian “left” and libertarian “right”. ” seems to have severely missed the mark. I see no such coalition, nor has there been one since 1971.

    The more I consider it, the more I like the UBI (or, better still, citizen’s dividend) to really distance Ls from conservatives, who might sometimes talk a good game about markets but are in fact carrying the water for the affluent. I even think there’s a shorter-term case for a cut in the FICA tax rate with a much higher cap, or perhaps no cap.

    Such positions don’t come without risks, but personally I don’t know how else to rally large numbers toward rolling back the state while doing so in a just manner that doesn’t stack the deck in favor of the affluent.

    These sorts of NAP violations could be brought to the Judicial Committee and otherwise be savaged by NAP dogmatists. The unprincipled 7/8ths rule has boxed the LP way out on the fringes, never to become a force for actual progress toward enhanced individual liberty.

  32. dL

    me: Advocate and spokesman are different, I’m sure you agree.

    No…

    dictionary:
    advocate: a person who publicly supports or recommends a particular cause or policy
    spokesman: a person who makes statements on behalf of a group or individual or cause

    I don’t have the time to debate this idiotic minutiae…

    I don’t see where Palmer says he supported the Iraq War in the link you provided. Can you point to a specific place where he supported the war, or will you once again run away?

    I’m not your bitch…look it up yourself…it is common knowledge. Btw, no need for me to run away. I imagine it would be tough for you to chase down anyone wearing this…

  33. robert capozzi

    dL,

    Yes, you don’t have time for many things, including the TRUTH.

    From TomGPalmer.com, September 19, 2004:

    “You may be against the Iraq war, as I was and remain, ”

    Your approach reminds me of Trump’s: Say anything — no matter how false — if you think it will score you points in the moment.

    Unfortunately, your lack of credibility only worsens each time you make — I’m sorry — ridiculous statements and then claim it’s common knowledge!

    You remind of the child covered in cookie crumbs SWEARING you did NOT eat the cookies!!!

    Queue dL running away!!!!!

  34. robert capozzi

    Actually, it’s more like we have video of you climbing up on the kitchen counter glomming cookie after cookie. Your parents show you the video, and you claim that it’s not you! It’s another child impersonating you.

    🙂

  35. dL

    “You may be against the Iraq war, as I was and remain, ”

    Your approach reminds me of Trump’s: Say anything — no matter how false — if you think it will score you points in the moment.

    Unfortunately, your lack of credibility only worsens each time you make — I’m sorry — ridiculous statements and then claim it’s common knowledge!

    You remind of the child covered in cookie crumbs SWEARING you did NOT eat the cookies!!!

    Queue dL running away!!!!!

    I stand corrected on the first part of my statement. Sort of. After a bit of a refresher search, it was Randy Barnett, not Palmer, that I was thinking of RE: “common knowledge.” RE: Palmer. A search of his blog for posts prior to the War indicates he was an “unenthusiastic opponent” of it. Reads more like a hedge to me. Quoting Palmer:

    But my position is not the adamant opposition of most opponents of war with Iraq. Evidence of the proper sort could convince me to be in favor of war. And if in favor of war, then in favor of victory.

    http://tomgpalmer.com/2002/11/19/a-debate-on-iraq-yesterday-4/

    Of course, regarding the occupation, Palmer was an enthusiastic supporter. In word and in deed.

  36. dL

    Actually, it’s more like we have video of you climbing up on the kitchen counter glomming cookie after cookie. Your parents show you the video, and you claim that it’s not you! It’s another child impersonating you.

    The one acting like a punk child is you. Like my most keyboard provocateurs, I’m guessing your physical stature matches your wit. You know, if you weren’t to pee down your leg if we met face to face…

  37. robert capozzi

    dL,

    Thank you.

    Barnet’s view doesn’t surprise me.

    TGP’s being non-adamant is only slightly surprising. While I wasn’t paying super-close attention at the time, I recall my reaction was something like: Whoo boy, this looks like a big mistake. I had some ambivalence insofar as there was a claim that SH had WMD. As the weeks past, I felt validated that my gut was correct. And I found it odd that they changed the story about WMD, de-emphasizing it as a primary motive.

    It makes sense that if war is to be waged, victory should be the aim. The alternative seems especially loopy.

    Perhaps TGP was lining up with Bill Evers, former ally, former nemesis, former Rothbard lieutenant, on the occupation. That effort seemed to me murkier at the time and now. Powell, I’d say, had a point about You break it, you bought it, though. Once the US broke Iraq, it was not obvious to me what the virtuous path was, other than my general prescription for entangling alliances, which is: Tactful extrication.

    The idea of making Iraq into a land of liberty seemed to me then and now to be an especially delusional idea.

  38. paulie Post author

    New from Alexandria Brown, who helped her friend, Augustus Invictus’ ex-fiancee, report and publicize the charges against him:

    Alexandria: Last night fascists called my phone sex line and forbid me from ever sleeping with non-white men and threatened to come find me. I feel like I’m losing my mind! I’m so angry

    Paulie:
    Do you want me to keep that between us or mention it publicly? I have a number of people who have asked me for proof that they are threatening people so anything I can put on the record helps, whether from you or anyone else. They have threatened me also and personally I feel that the best way for me to deal with that is to make it public. Not much else I can think of that I could help with but if you think of something let me know. Feel free to call any time, 205-534-1622.

    BTW are you still talking to Victoria? Did she ever file a second report in the jurisdiction(s) where abuse took place, or was she intimidated into not filing that?

    Recent on IPR dealing with FL fash:

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/11/the-knpp-stir-podcast-episode-140-special-broadcast-from-area-51/

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/10/joe-wendt-withdraws-from-us-senate-campaign-libertarian-party-of-florida-active-membership/

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/10/paul-stanton-makes-motion-to-remove-ryan-ramsey-from-florida-lp-exec-comm-then-resigns-himself/

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/09/paul-frankel-why-libertarians-need-to-denounce-the-alt-right-and-white-nationalists-and-dont-need-to-worry-about-libertarian-socialists-and-antifa/

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/08/paul-stanton-lp-florida-chair-marcos-miralles-must-resign/

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/07/paul-stanton-perhaps-working-with-white-nationalists-is-not-the-best-approach/

    ….they have links to the older ones.

    I don’t know about you but I find that speaking with a community of people online as well as with individual people on the phone helps me to deal with fear and anger.

    Alexandria: Yes I’m trying to reach out to my community. Victoria is angry at me because I had a mental breakdown and issued that retraction (while believing Augusts was telepathically sending me death threats)

    I can recount the events in more detail if you want to make it public.

    First, one white caller (with an Irish username) called me and requested an elaborate raceplay fantasy in which he demanded that I promise only ever have sex with white men and keep my White Goddess pussy “pure.” He referred to black people as “colored.” Then immediately afterward, another caller with an Irish username called me and I briefly discussed a bondage scenario with him. I said “Too bad we can’t do this in real life,” and then he said “Oh I think we can,” and when I said “Oh?” He very angrily/menacingly said “YEAH.” and hung up on me.

    I could provide the handles/usernames but a little worried about retaliation?

    The former leader of American Front Luke Leger told me he could get my address at any time if he wanted so idk, it worries me to have them harassing me like this.

    Paulie:
    Sure, you can send me all the details you want. I think having it on the record makes it less likely they will do anything. IMO.

    (I’ve received two screenshots from Alexandria; they only show the user names and how long she spoke with them).

  39. paulie Post author

    Not sure if my source wants to be identified for this one:

    An investigation conducted by people working within Augustus Invictus’ campaign alleges that Augustus Invictus is part of the Order of the Nine Angles, which “expresses the view that the current Aeonic civilization is that of the Western, but claims that the evolution of this society is threatened by the ‘Magian/Nazarene’ influence of Judeo-Christian religion, which the Order seeks to combat in order to establish a militaristic new social order, termed the ‘Imperium’. According to Order teachings, this is necessary in order for a Galactic civilization to form, in which ‘Aryan’ society will colonise the Milky Way. It advocates a spiritual path in which the practitioner is required to break societal taboos by isolating themselves from society, committing crimes, embracing political extremism and violence, and carrying out an act of human sacrifice.”

    According to the same source, he also allegedly has sexually abused multiple women.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Nine_Angles

    …..

    The Order of Nine Angles (ONA; O9A) is a Satanic and Left-Hand Path occult group based in the United Kingdom, but with affiliated groups in various other parts of the world. Claiming to have been established in the 1960s, it arose to public recognition in the early 1980s, attracting attention for its espousal of Neo-Nazi ideologies and activism. Describing its approach as “Traditional Satanism”, it has been identified by academic researchers as also exhibiting Hermetic and Neo-Pagan elements in its beliefs and has been described as one of the most extreme Satanist groups in the world.

    The ONA’s writings condone and encourage human sacrifice,[121] referring to their victims as opfers.[66] The ONA outline their views on human sacrifice in a number of documents: “A Gift for the Prince – A Guide to Human Sacrifice”, “Culling – A Guide to Sacrifice II”, “Victims – A Sinister Exposé”, and “Guidelines for the Testing of Opfers”.[122] According to the ONA’s beliefs, the killer must allow their victim to “self-select” themselves; this is achieved through testing the victim to see if they expose perceived character faults. If this proves to be the case, the victim is believed to have shown that they are worthy of death, and the sacrifice can commence.[123] Those deemed ideal for sacrifice by the group include individuals perceived as being of low character, members of what they deem “sham-Satanic groups” like the Church of Satan and Temple of Set, as well as “zealous, interfering Nazarenes”, and journalists, business figures and political activists who disrupt the group’s operations.[124] The ONA explains that because of the need for such “self-selection”, children must never be victims of sacrifice.[125] Similarly, the ONA “despise animal sacrifice, maintaining that it is much better to sacrifice suitable mundanes given the abundance of human dross”.[126]

    Augustus Invictus’ threats against me among others included:

    Stanton, Tesky, Wyllie, Marchetti, and Frankel are all directly responsible for that, because the babysitter called the police based off the bullshit criminal allegations being pushed by those five. It was the ‘news’ story that caused the babysitter to call the police. Fourth and final: It never crossed my mind that Joe (Wendt) had anything to do with that, but if I find out that he was involved with Stanton or Tesky or Marchetti in pushing those criminal allegations, I will hang him with my own fucking hands. That entire situation is something so outrageous that I am not even discussing it. Each and every person who was involved or had knowledge of it will get what is coming to them.

  40. paulie Post author

    Oh yeah…the wiki article also mentions that O9A members like to join the police and military to get legal opportunities to kill people.

    Also, I should mention that Invictus’ law firm was called Imperium.

  41. dL

    dL,

    Thank you.

    Well, Bob, your last response was an adult one.

    The idea of making Iraq into a land of liberty seemed to me then and now to be an especially delusional idea.

    By means of US military occupation, yes. I find it absurd that to the extent that war and occupation precipitated the slide into the Heimatschutz security state here at home, anyone would try to seize on it as an “opportunity” to “export liberty” abroad. Wittingly or not, Palmer is a dupe for American imperialism.

    RE: Atlas Network.

    I’m opposed to the Atlas Network because it invariably aligns with the right wing elements of Latin American politics that seek alignment with the United States government. No better example than the recent Ecuadorian election.

    Guillermo Lasso, the candidate for the Creating Opportunities party, president of the “free market” Ecuador Free Foundation, was the Atlas candidate. His stated first order order of business would have been to expel Julian Assange from the Ecuadorian embassy in London, ostensibly handing him over to the Brits or the Americans. And I have a real problem with that.

    My first serious indoctrination in to libertarianism was Milton Friedman’s “Capitalism and Freedom.” And by freedom, Friedman meant liberal political freedom. That book was the bible of classical liberalism. But it would seem many of today’s “classical liberals” have forgotten that. Now it seems to be: Capitalism And Making the World Unsafe for Political Dissidents….under the gospel of prosperity.

    One of my particular beefs with the libertarian think tank crowd is that they operate under an archaic capitalist/socialist dichotomy. There are no state socialist countries. Not even North Korea. I would think the fact that communist China is now the leading purveyor of globalist capitalism would cause even the most dim-witted to rethink that old dichotomy. Instead, you get a lot of doublethink, but not much rethinking. It is almost as if think tank bureaucracies are more intransigent than government bureaucracies. And if you operate under such a flawed dichotomy, your conclusions and policy prescriptions, often sold as moving in a direction of freedom, are likewise flawed.

    However, I will note that to Palmer’s credit, he was an early recognizer of what that crackpot Hans Hoppe represented.

  42. robert capozzi

    dL: One of my particular beefs with the libertarian think tank crowd is that they operate under an archaic capitalist/socialist dichotomy. There are no state socialist countries.

    me: Could be. Is there a superior model? And what would it be?

  43. paulie Post author

    Don’t know anything about it. Could be a false flag, a la “Harrisburg Antifa”. What do you think of the latest from Alexandria Brown, a couple of comments up?

  44. Anon-Tipper

    I thought that there already were assault/domestic abuse allegations against Augustus? Are these new? Interesting about his law firm name, he seems to slip in fascist symbols, like with his campaign logo. Wouldn’t surprise me if he’s doing that here. And that Augustus was eating goat’s blood, so we already know he’s involved with something in the satanic or pagan realm.

    From the wiki page: mentions of Nietzsche, I think I’ve seen this on his revolutionary conservative page, also popular with the alt-right.

    Looks like some want to censure (and resignation) Arvin for his military comments, people are in more of an outrage than the white-genocide comments from Caprio and Ramsey targeting people in the LP (found a couple facebook pages he has made like “Libertarians against Sarwark and SJWs” and “Nuke Keene”) and being involved in a white-nationalist organization. Ridiculous.

  45. paulie Post author

    I thought that there already were assault/domestic abuse allegations against Augustus? Are these new?

    There were already. The threats by the fascists against Alexandria Brown, the woman who helped her friend, Augustus’ ex-fiancee, publicize the charges are new, although they are not the first she has received. The report from members of Invictus’ campaign that he admitted to abusing his ex-fiancee and several other women is new. While it was no secret that Invictus is a pagan, his alleged participation in a satanic nazi cult devoted to human sacrifice was not revealed previously, and puts his threats against me and several others which have been made public for some time now in a sinister new light.

  46. Thane Eichenauer

    paulie,
    You jumped from an anonymous claim of participation to your presumption of participation in a criminal cult.
    I wish you well. You just might want to review such comments with an attorney before you cross a line inadvertently.

  47. Anon-Tipper

    Okay, I see thanks for clearing that up. Looks like it’s hard to find out who’s a member of that organization. Some activist groups try to keep track of KKK members, for example, but this will be hard to verify since it’s so secretive.

    Looks like ‘Imperium’ was the name of a recent movie about white-nationalists: http://variety.com/2016/film/reviews/imperium-review-1201837756/

    Kind of a stupid name to choose if you don’t want people to think you’re a nazi. Augustus is sue happy, just be careful.

  48. dL

    And that Augustus was eating goat’s blood, so we already know he’s involved with something in the satanic or pagan realm.

    Animal sacrifice has nothing to do w/ satanism or paganism. It’s a relic of the Abrahamic religions.

    FYI: the 10th rule of the satanic rules of the Earth forbid killing animals other than for food or self-defense. Animal sacrifice is considered a cruel and pathetic religious superstition.

  49. dL

    satanic nazi

    that’s an oxymoron, btw

  50. paulie Post author

    The pagan tradition Augustus was involved with, OTO, does have animal sacrifice as an element. However, they expelled him for torturing and dismembering the goat to death, after which he took down the video. He denies the torture and dismemberment but won’t put the video back up to prove himself innocent of that, even though he acknowledges killing the goat and drinking its blood, so what else could he be trying to conceal?

    According to the wiki article above the cult he is now allegedly involved with, O9A, does not condone animal sacrifice but does condone and practice human sacrifice. It’s in light of this that his threats against me and others are especially concerning. See above.

    The high likelihood that he has tortured and dismembered animals and the alleged admission that he has abused multiple women, his published fantasies about raping multiple women and underage girls, his repeated threats to kill his political enemies, and his alleged membership in an extreme neonazi satanic cult that preaches and practices human sacrifice along with his extensive connections in the violent racist far right nationwide make his threats against me and others a serious concern.

  51. paulie Post author

    that’s an oxymoron, btw

    O9A does not consider the Church of Satan to be legitimate Satanists. See wiki entry linked above.

  52. dL

    O9A does not consider the Church of Satan to be legitimate Satanists. See wiki entry linked above.

    I never heard of the Order of the Nine Angels and could give a rat’s ass what those nimrods proclaim. To the extent they even exist, it sounds like a bunch of neo-nazis who have expropriated occultist imagery/terminology. Not any different then what the same elements have done w/ libertarianism.

  53. Alexandria Brown

    Well, there is a lot to respond to here. I want to take a bit of a detour, which is regarding the Order of the Nine Angles. I was talking to a phone sex customer recently who is a Hispanic man who, bear with me, believes that I’m a white supremacist. He has a lot of internalized racism and likes me to act out role-play humiliating him as a “White Goddess.” I find it distasteful but it pays very well and I know he’d just do this with a different girl if not me so I have done several calls with him. Anyway, the reason I bring this up is because this caller told me that he went on the ‘dark web’ and downloaded a video of a neo-Nazi group carving a swastika into a Hispanic woman’s back while a Hispanic man hung dead from a noose in the background.

    I have no reason to imagine that he was making this story up, it certainly didn’t sound as if he was. Now, I have no idea what the context of this video was or whether it represents a crime that was prosecuted but it seems like it’s at least possible that it could represent an unpunished crime carried out in secret by a white supremacist group which would be evidence that those kinds of things can happen, and particularly given FBI-documented infiltration of law enforcement by white supremacists (my friend just saw a police officer with a SS tattoo recently), people shouldn’t be dismissed outright as paranoid for being concerned about these things.

    Someone earlier in this thread was telling Paulie to be careful because of the threat of a lawsuit but in fact I think quite to the contrary, you must simply speak out about these things. It is good to create a record to protect your own safety because then if anything bad were to ever happen to you there’d be no question of who to trace it to—which I think deters action. Augustus may be malicious in some ways but I doubt he wants to end up in jail. I also honestly think the lawsuit threats are empty. I personally ought to have fought the threats of a defamation lawsuit with more perseverance than I did, I simply didn’t because I was on the verge of a mental breakdown from fear and stress. The game is psychological intimidation, especially with the interest in magic and paganism/Satanism which is in my opinion really just all about persuading other people that you have occult powers.

    As Paulie mentioned, I received two consecutive, threatening phone calls from fascists last Friday. I have no way of proving that these two calls were related to Augustus. But I will likely soon report them to the police. There’s a serial killer in my neighborhood right now and law enforcement is having such a hard time tracking down the killer that the FBI and SWAT teams are going through and searching everybody’s houses.

    Regarding the status of the allegations against Augustus in general, there’s word that Victoria is seeking an injunction of protection against Augustus; no word yet on whether it has gone through. As far as I know this means she is not necessarily seeking for it to go to trial, which, if the allegations are true and if I were her, seems like it would be a bad move, but she and I are no longer in communication.

    Oh, and I want to say something that is in some ways quite positive. On the one hand, Augustus is a powerful and dangerous man. I think anyone who has been threatened by Augustus should take those threats seriously. However, personally, I have been doing some serious reflecting since I received those threatening phone calls on Friday. My intuition tells me that I myself don’t have anything to fear from Augustus per se. I noticed that he referred to me and Victoria as “family” in the SPLC interview he did earlier this year, with Rachel Janik. Given my role in his life I do not think he would harm me, not least because it’d just simply destroy his own life to do so. And to be clear, I have absolutely never been directly threatened by Augustus—in fact I have never been treated with anything but kindness, politeness, and even love and affection by him up until experiencing some anger at his hands in the form of some harshly-worded e-mails near the very end of our correspondence this year. I doubt his followers would want to do anything he didn’t approve of in order to harm me, either, although perhaps that is ultimately less certain. In any case, hopefully I’m not being utterly naive, but I think that for better or for worse, I am in a special, privileged category which keeps me immune to the worst of harms. As strange as it may sound, I trust Augustus not to violate that faith I have that he will not harm me.

    My further reflections on this last, more personal topic are readable here: http://alexandriabrown.tumblr.com/post/167494390008/the-noble-person-does-not-sin

    Paulie, I also just had a question: did you report the threats made against you to the police?

  54. paulie Post author

    Paulie, I also just had a question: did you report the threats made against you to the police?

    No. My opinion of the police is very low. They are often corrupt, sociopathic and racist and even when they are not they are useless and incompetent. When my computer was stolen two years ago, I did report that but I did not expect them to find it (and they haven’t). I only reported it in case something malicious was done with it by the thieves or someone they sold it to, to establish it wouldn’t have been me. Naturally the very day I reported the computer theft, as we were going around to local pawn shops to look for it, they managed to harass us for no reason in the parking lot of our own motel.

  55. paulie Post author

    particularly given FBI-documented infiltration of law enforcement by white supremacists (my friend just saw a police officer with a SS tattoo recently), people shouldn’t be dismissed outright as paranoid for being concerned about these things.

    I agree. I have known lots of racist cops. A major reason I am not running to them.

  56. paulie Post author

    I also honestly think the lawsuit threats are empty.

    As a public person, he would have to prove that I lied maliciously. I rather doubt he could prove that. I also have no on the books job and no assets, and am not the easiest person in the world to serve with notice to appear, but I have nothing to run from. However I did go back and added allegedly to the comment, because I want to be accurate, not because I am afraid of a lawsuit.

    I’m more concerned he may kill me or get someone else to kill me than that he will sue me.

  57. paulie Post author

    It is good to create a record to protect your own safety because then if anything bad were to ever happen to you there’d be no question of who to trace it to—which I think deters action.

    Agreed.

  58. Anon-Tipper

    “Animal sacrifice has nothing to do w/ satanism or paganism”
    There was animal sacrifice in various pagan religions, greek, roman, for example. But I messed up my wording; we already know he was in a pagan group because we know the goat sacrifice was connected to his (specific) pagan beliefs, didn’t mean to word it as pagan = animal sacrifice.

    “it sounds like a bunch of neo-nazis who have expropriated occultist imagery/terminology.”
    Yeah, that’s basically what the nazis did, they also tried to remove Judaism’s influence from Christianity. White supremacists have also moved into odinism and medieval imagery. It’s from their belief that these elements were from a “pure white” europe or something stupid like that. The O9A stuff looks like a continuation of this.

    “extensive connections in the violent racist far right nationwide make his threats against me and others a serious concern.”
    Even if the O9A connection isn’t true, there’s enough provable connections that are scary.

  59. Anon-Tipper

    “particularly given FBI-documented infiltration of law enforcement by white supremacists (my friend just saw a police officer with a SS tattoo recently), people shouldn’t be dismissed outright as paranoid for being concerned about these things.”

    Looks like the FBI warned about this a decade ago, yet there doesn’t seem to be much action taken
    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement

    The real question is why the LP, or specifically the LPF? What do they gain from infiltrating us? We’re already not well liked by Republicans or Democrats, there’s not a lot of us so a fascist would/does stand out, can’t really blend in well. I think in some ways, it’s because they get ideological cover from people like Hoppe and LvMI’s connections, but I still don’t get it. It just seems dumb, all the Augustus website like Liberty Hangout are just so obvious. And stupid Ramsey reposts his own libertarian heathen posts on all the fake facebook pages he created.

    Stay safe everyone

  60. paulie Post author

    The real question is why the LP,

    Marginally more respectable than they are, plus ballot access. Not that they don’t try to infiltrate the other parties too, as Invictus shows by now running as a Republican.

  61. Anon-Tipper

    “plus ballot access”
    “Not that they don’t try to infiltrate the other parties too”

    Both true, I agree. Just seems like too much work, but maybe I’m not the type to infiltrate organizations.

  62. Alexandria Brown

    I think at least part of the reason there is fascist entryism into the Libertarian party may just be that the Libertarian is the smallest major party so it’d ostensibly be easier to take over than either Democratic or Republican parties but still has enough clout that it’d be a significant victory to take it over.

  63. Anon-Tipper

    “smallest major party so it’d ostensibly be easier to take over”

    I agree with that, easier to take control of, easier to get into positions of power than R or D.

  64. Anon-Tipper

    Just seems like they’ll be noticed quicker in a smaller party. But this has been tried before, something sort of like this happened with the Reform party in my state, a group was able to sue and take over leadership positions.

  65. Luke

    It doesn’t help when you have the executive director of the national committee saying Augustus Invictus was “bullied” and that we should not chase off people on the border between libertarianism and other philosophies, such as fascism or national socialism.

  66. Anon-Tipper

    “national committee saying Augustus Invictus was “bullied””
    That pissed me off, wtf was he thinking saying that?!?

    “that we should not chase off people”
    You can have a “broad” definition (that’s more defined by their ethics/outlook, etc. instead of state vs. anarchy, specific policies, etc.) that includes people from Friedman to Rothbard, even Rand Paul, but the people trying to justify Augustus are just practicing mental gymnastics.

    They’re expanding the definition into a general anti-establishment, anti-state stance, so basically everyone not in the mainstream. Niskanen article about this: https://niskanencenter.org/blog/explaining-white-nationalisms-anti-statist-bedfellows/

  67. paulie Post author

    It’s one thing to say we should not chase people off who are on the borderline between libertarianism and liberalism, or libertarianism and conservatism, or libertarianism and centrism. Libertarianism and fascism? Oh hell no, chase them the fuck off because all they do is chase off a lot more people with their ugly taint.

  68. Anon-Tipper

    I really don’t know what Wes meant by that, it sounded like he thought he could “save” Augustus and make him a libertarian. wtf?!?

  69. Alexandria Brown

    Augustus is not unintelligent and I can empathize with wanting to influence his views for the better, but it seems like when a time when a group is actively organizing an entryist project to overtake your political group that is not the time to focus on deconverting them

  70. Chuck Moulton

    Anon-Tipper wrote (11/15/2017 at 1:11 pm):

    I really don’t know what Wes meant by that, it sounded like he thought he could “save” Augustus and make him a libertarian. wtf?!?

    I don’t know what he was thinking either and I agree it was a bad idea.

    However, one motivation might have been that he attended an election night party in Miami, FL and wanted to make nice with the current Florida leadership.

  71. Luke

    Well that totally explains it.

    “Nazis who routinely issue death threats and are aggressively planning to take over both the state and national parties should be coddled so I can go have a nice vacation in Miami” …. seems legit.

  72. Anon-Tipper

    Maybe he’s afraid of being threatened or was threatened. I really hope something is done about LPF.

  73. dL

    They’re expanding the definition into a general anti-establishment, anti-state stance, so basically everyone not in the mainstream. Niskanen article about this:

    The Niskanen Center is a duplicitous outfit. When someone leads w/ this:

    Throughout the rise of Trump and the alt-right, I struggled to understand why countless of my nominally libertarian friends and acquaintances became enthralled with white nationalism. The reason, I’ve concluded, is their mutual disaffection with the state.

    It might say more about the author and his choice of friends/hangouts then it does about the inevitable outcome of anti-statist ideology. If libertarianism is presented as a false dilemma between white identity politics and the beltway crack pipe(i.e, selling the piss on your back as rain), the crack pipe ain’t going to win.

  74. dL

    However, one motivation might have been that he attended an election night party in Miami, FL and wanted to make nice with the current Florida leadership.

    Perhaps one should stop making excuses for him…there is no excuse

  75. Luke

    It’s not an “anti-establishment” thing. Benedict doesn’t want to chase off the Barrs, Johnsons and Welds either. Or the animal (and human?) sacrificing neo-fascists who want to kill Muslims, Jews, leftists and gays, give speeches to the National Socialist Movement among dozens of other likeminded groups and podcasts, call for total war, issue death threats, torture and dismember goats, publish “nonfiction” about raping 14 year olds along with numerous other rape fantasies, allegedly admit to abusing multiple women, etc., etc. Let’s keep them all in the big happy clown tent of the LP. As long as the check clears, who cares, right?

  76. Anon-Tipper

    “The Niskanen Center is a duplicitous outfit.’

    I like some of their work, they have a problem with misrepresenting arguments, which various libertarians have pointed out to them.

    “It might say more about the author and his choice of friends/hangouts then it does about the inevitable outcome of anti-statist ideology.”

    I believe the author is over stating the “libertarian to alt-right” pipeline, I genuinely don’t believe him when he states most of his libertarian friends are alt-right now, I’d like to see a survey or some actual proof of this claim. But, I don’t think he’s saying anti-statism leads to the alt-right, but alt-righters co-opt it and try to justify their own beliefs with it.

    “If libertarianism is presented as a false dilemma between white identity politics and the beltway crack pipe(i.e, selling the piss on your back as rain), the crack pipe ain’t going to win.”

    It’s not helping that the LvMI is pandering to the alt-right, hopefully something pops up to provide an alternative to the beltway for those libertarians.

    “It’s not an “anti-establishment” thing. Benedict doesn’t want to chase off the Barrs, Johnsons and Welds either…Let’s keep them all in the big happy clown tent of the LP. As long as the check clears, who cares, right?”

    I see then I take back the above; he’s expanding the tent to include basically everyone that at one point read something about libertarianism.

  77. paulie Post author

    Yep. Except that bringing in the altreich keeps larger numbers of people out, so it’s not smart in the long term even from that standpoint, but I guess when you need a weekly or monthly paycheck the long term is not your primary focus.

  78. Anon-Tipper

    Ah, sorry dL, I re-read the Niskanen article, he is stating that anti-statism leads to white-nationalism. Yeah, that is dumb, I think the white-nationalist are just co-opting it with a few people like Cantwell that never really understood it in the first place. I take back my response above.

  79. Anon-Tipper

    “Unfortunately it’s more than a few but yeah, it’s far from everyone.”

    I say few because it makes me sad that there were libertarians just in it for dubious reasons. I think there’s some merit to the Niskanen article, at least in respect to messaging and who we bring in, but they mess up by trying to establish a causal relationship.

  80. paulie Post author

    I agree, they overstate it, but yes, I think there is a mindset with some people who are attracted to libertarianism which makes them prone to the propaganda efforts of the altreich.

  81. Anon-Tipper

    I had an argument with someone who claimed Nozick is a “redistributionist” fake libertarian. The altreich really warps some people’s minds.

  82. dL

    I like some of their work, they have a problem with misrepresenting arguments, which various libertarians have pointed out to them.

    Uh, yeah, they have a big problem with misrepresenting arguments. Intentionally, in some instances. Out of ignorance in others. For example, the author of the piece in question completely misrepresents the position of Thomas Hobbes. That’s out of ignorance. The “guilt by association” accusations stemming from the author’s own apparent errors in judgment RE: his Facebook friends(I assume countless acquaintances implies an online social network) is intentional.

    The duplicity observation largely originates w/ the vice-president for policy fellow who had previously publicly repudiated libertarianism, wrote a “Democracy in America” column at The Economist predicated on a communitarian suspension of government skepticism, and then came screaming back to liberalism upon the election of Trump, whereupon he then blamed libertarianism and “anti-statist government skepticism” for threat of Trump. This, of coure, despite the fact the threat of Trump required no new law to be passed, no new bureacracy to be created, no new government goons to be hired or new wars to be waged. Within 5 seconds of Trump being elected, he was a threat. But Trump by himself is not threat. He is a fat old man. The state is the threat..and was the threat.

    Now if one wants to make the argument that conservative alignment undermines libertarianism, I’m all for it. But The Niskanen Center would have to disband before making that argument. It is by and large, with a few exceptions(e.g, Radley Balko), a right wing neoliberal organization populated by the usual conservative suspects…people like David Frum, George Schultz, Linda Chavez, etc. It tries to strike a pose in social justice drag to pass itself as something different, which reminds me of something: Bush’s compassionate conservatism. You know the thing set a lot of the state machinery in motion that now enables someone like Trump to be particularly dangerous and cruel.

  83. Anon-Tipper

    The “guilt by association” accusations stemming from the author’s own apparent errors in judgment RE: his Facebook friends(I assume countless acquaintances implies an online social network) is intentional.

    I agree with this, it’s an extremely stupid way to “prove” something.

    “The duplicity observation largely originates w/ the vice-president for policy fellow who had previously publicly repudiated libertarianism, wrote a “Democracy in America” column at The Economist predicated on a communitarian suspension of government skepticism, and then came screaming back to liberalism upon the election of Trump, whereupon he then blamed libertarianism and “anti-statist government skepticism” for threat of Trump.”

    Wilkinson? I’ve read some of his stuff on and off, he has this strange thing he does where he asserts “Ron Paul = libertarianism and libertarian ideas/people I like are not, but they’re actually whatever label I’m using today.” And to the Trump claim, it’s what libertarians have been warning about for years, Ilya Somin had an article refuting him a little while ago on this too. I agree with your assessment on him. He had an article lately stating that it was “delicious irony” that a libertarian (Rand Paul) was beaten up over property rights, I’m kind of done with him.

    “Now if one wants to make the argument that conservative alignment undermines libertarianism, I’m all for it. But The Niskanen Center would have to disband before making that argument. ”

    Yeah, I originally thought Niskanen might be good since this was the “goal.” I’ve only looked at a few things they published.

    “organization populated by the usual conservative suspects”

    I didn’t know that, thanks. I should be more wary of them in the future.

  84. dL

    I didn’t know that, thanks. I should be more wary of them in the future.

    Yeah, it is why you get stuff like this from those guys
    [libertarians should embrace a grand strategy of engagement that maintains America’s core military alliances]
    https://niskanencenter.org/blog/america-unrestrained-engagement-retrenchment-libertarian-foreign-policy/

    He had an article lately stating that it was “delicious irony” that a libertarian (Rand Paul) was beaten up over property rights, I’m kind of done with him.

    yes, Wilkinson’s claim that libertarian hard-core property rights prevents a proper functioning of democracy was intentional misrepresentation and unintentional comedy. Duplicitous too, given Niskanen puts out stuff like this

    [Automating Copyright Enforcement]
    https://niskanencenter.org/blog/2017-policy-priorities-copyright-regime-digital-age/

    Talk about hardcore property rights! And I haven’t quite figured out exactly how automated copyright enforcement comports with democracy…

  85. dL

    I had an argument with someone who claimed Nozick is a “redistributionist” fake libertarian.

    A significant part of Nozick’s “Anarchy, State and Utopia” attacked the distributive justice theories of Amartya Sen and John Rawls. The only “redistribution” in Nozick’s entitlement theory was a principle of rectification for injustice in holdings.

    Reinforces my own quip: libertarianism doesn’t suffer from an education problem, except among libertarians.

  86. Anon-Tipper

    “[libertarians should embrace a grand strategy of engagement that maintains America’s core military alliances]”

    So neolibertarianism?

    “[Automating Copyright Enforcement]”

    That’s funny since Brink Lindsey from Niskanen recently said that he thought a lot of IP laws were bullshit with little evidence behind them.

    “The only “redistribution” in Nozick’s entitlement theory was a principle of rectification for injustice in holdings.”

    Yeah, this was their reasoning as to why he wasn’t a libertarian. I tried to ask them then what is a libertarian, which they then proceeded to tell me that Hayek was a central planner. Then they told me I was jumping on the group think bandwagon because I used a definition of libertarian (that includes people from Friedman to Rothbard) that is commonly accepted. Tbf, this person also argued that Trump’s trade policies were libertarian, so I don’t know why I thought it would be a good conversation.

    “Reinforces my own quip: libertarianism doesn’t suffer from an education problem, except among libertarians.”

    And severe “no true scotsman” syndrome.

  87. Anon-Tipper

    Does compassionate conservatism have a definitive foreign policy? I assumed a lot were neoconservative.

  88. robert capozzi

    dL: libertarianism doesn’t suffer from an education problem, except among libertarians.

    me: Perhaps you can be the new Robert LeFevre, opening dL’s Freedom School, to correct all the Wrong Think among Ls. 😉

  89. Anon-Tipper

    “Does compassionate conservatism have a definitive foreign policy? I assumed a lot were neoconservative.”

    And if that’s true, then Niskanen’s going to be in a tough spot in the libertarian community. 🙂

    “Perhaps you can be the new Robert LeFevre, opening dL’s Freedom School, to correct all the Wrong Think among Ls. ?”

    Someone needs to do something, I can’t believe the shit I hear. (“Hayek was a central planner” wtf)

  90. robert capozzi

    AT,

    Hayek WAS a central planner since he was not an anarchist. It’s not the characterization I’d choose for Freddy, but on one level it is accurate.

  91. Anon-Tipper

    He said that is was because he supported a ubi type system at one point. I think the normal definition for central planning involves the means of production so his ubi doesn’t violate that (at least this is how I understand the term).

    This person also stated that free trade is sacrificing one group to save another so we need protectionism, and I’m not really sure how this is not central planning!

  92. dL

    Someone needs to do something, I can’t believe the shit I hear.

    the internet makes smart people smarter and dumb people dumber…the internet makes it relatively costless to be informed; it also makes it relatively costless to mass propagate stupidity

  93. dL

    Hayek WAS a central planner since he was not an anarchist. It’s not the characterization I’d choose for Freddy, but on one level it is accurate.

    In practice, perhaps…

    omnes viae Romam ducunt

  94. robert capozzi

    Methinks, dL, that to REALLY learn from you, students would need to see the passion in your eyes as your shift from Latin phrases to dead French philosophers, captivating all with ears to hear.

  95. dL

    Methinks, dL, that to REALLY learn from you, students would need to see the passion in your eyes as your shift from Latin phrases to dead French philosophers, captivating all with ears to hear.

    caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris

  96. Anon-Tipper

    Yeah, I’m in the middle of Marcos’ part, the host said “uh…The American Guard was at Charlottesville,” then Marcos basically goes “yeah, I’m a cuban american so he’s not a white supremacist, they threw out Augustus, blah, blah, blah”

    Someone else just came in to the show (I think the name was Tom), called in about leaving the party, backed up Paul’s claim.

    I think there’s going to be a few more callers.

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