December 2017 Open Thread

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Our monthly open thread. Post news tips about alt parties and independent candidates, discuss any story that should be posted here but has not yet been posted, or even delve into completely off-topic stuff…just avoid quarantined thread subject matter and things that could get us and/or you into legal trouble such as threats, libel, and copyright infringement.

News tips can also be sent to the IPR writers who have chosen to make their contact info available at http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/about/.

It’s an IPR Open Thread tradition to include a video or two or three, but last month I put up ten just to see if anyone is paying attention. Little to no attention was paid so this month we are back down to one.

64 thoughts on “December 2017 Open Thread

  1. SocraticGadfly

    Texas Greens are still debating whether or not to do a ballot access petition drive next spring. I and some others say do it, even if odds of success are low.

  2. Mike C

    I want to get the word out for Ron Bishop, the write-in candidate of the Libertarian Party for the special Senate race in Alabama, but I will get flack on the the moderate Right and Left because there are Doug Jones signs everywhere. Even in some parts of rural Shelby and Jefferson County. It’s a deafening silence that is smothering me. I dealt with this last year about voting 3rd party and I really am not sure how to deal with this again, this year.

    I will vote in Ron Bishop, but under current Alabama voting requirements, he will not be counted separately but will be voted in with other independent candidates and other write-ins. Alabama is one of the worst states for 3rd party candidates. I refuse to vote for the two-party system anymore. I will vote 3rd party or a blank ballot. I feel so lost in a sea of Left and Right-wing snowflakes.

  3. paulie Post author

    Texas Greens are still debating whether or not to do a ballot access petition drive next spring. I and some others say do it, even if odds of success are low.

    They lost their place on the ballot? I either missed that or forgot.

  4. Michael Chastain

    TX requires for maintaining ballot access: 2% for governor or 5% for any statewide office. Usually minor parties find a statewide race with only one major party candidate and get their 5% in that race.

    In 2016, the D’s and R’s fielded candidates for all statewide offices in TX. The Greens did not make 5%.

    The Libertarians made it thanks to Mark Miller for Texas Oil and Gas Commission. Miller was an extraordinarily strong candidate for a Libertarian: among other things, he earned endorsements from 4 large newspapers and raised more than $100,000 in campaign funds. Miller earned 5.3%.

  5. Richard Winger

    The Texas Green Party, and others, expect to sue Texas over its ballot access laws. The case will probably be filed during December 2017.

  6. Thomas L. Knapp

    The last poll I noticed had Roy Moore leading Doug Jones 49-44 for US Senate from Alabama. The story didn’t specify the disposition of the remaining 7% (undecided, third party, whatever).

    That’s discouraging in much the same way that third party performance in last year’s presidential election was disappointing.

    I can understand the major-party-inclined defecting to the Democrat instead of to a third party candidate, but pretty much half of likely voters supporting with an openly avowed theocrat who stands credibly accused of being a predatory ephebophile? WTF, Alabama?

  7. paulie Post author

    Yes, we can no longer be thankful for Mississippi. To see the tortured logic of Moore supporters in action see the IPR articles already posted on that subject.

  8. dL

    but pretty much half of likely voters supporting with an openly avowed theocrat who stands credibly accused of being a predatory ephebophile? WTF, Alabama?

    culture of liberty luvs sharia law!

  9. Thane Eichenauer

    How anybody can be surprised that much of Alabama finds a Christian Bible based theocracy unthreatening is a puzzle to me. How is Roy Moore’s election the critical tipping point in such a hypothetical future?

  10. Luke

    But hey it’s OK, back in the good old slavery and Old Testament days it was completely normal for grown men to force themselves on teenage girls. Meanwhile we have the Cheeto Benito going to Pensacola to campaign for Moore, presumably because he doesn’t realize that Lower Alabama is actually in Florida.

  11. Just Some Random Guy

    I can understand the major-party-inclined defecting to the Democrat instead of to a third party candidate, but pretty much half of likely voters supporting with an openly avowed theocrat who stands credibly accused of being a predatory ephebophile? WTF, Alabama?

    Having read some stuff on it, I’m not sure I can say he’s “credibly accused.” There’s a number of holes and inaccuracies in the details of the accusations against Moore. Certainly, these things happened a long time ago so it’s understandable if people’s memories weren’t working perfectly, but it does cast doubt on the accusations.

    As for the “openly avowed theocrat,” Bernie Sanders is an “openly avowed socialist” and exactly how much success has he had getting even things like the $15/hour minimum wage passed nationally? When you’re just one vote out of 100, you can have the most extreme views possible on any issue and still can’t really do anything to actually make those extreme views happen. In terms of voting, Moore can’t accomplish anything more extreme than your typical Republican just like how Sanders can’t accomplish anything more extreme than your typical Democrat.

  12. Richard Winger

    The real harm a Moore victory would cause is that it would seem to continue the trend of powerful politicians thinking they can lie their way out of trouble instead of being honest. With Moore’s very own attorney-colleagues from the past confirming he had a reputation for dating teenage girls, and with evidence that he was well-known for hanging around malls in weekend evenings, it seems too well established to doubt.

  13. Thomas Knapp

    JSRG,

    We must have different definitions of “credibly accused.”

    Credibility is “the quality of being convincing or believable.”

    The notion that he displayed ephebophiliac behavior in his 30s seems, if not beyond dispute, nearly so. Ephebophilia is “primary sexual interest in mid-to-late adolescents, generally ages 15 to 19.” He admits to dating women in that age range, though “not generally” the under-18s “without the permission of her mother.” In his own autobiography, he notes that he first met his wife when he was in his late 20s or early thirties and she was in her mid-teens and upon meeting her “I knew Kayla was going to be a special person in my life” (they weren’t married until years later when he was 38 and she was 24). So he’s admitting to the age differential in attraction right there.

    The “predatory” component is obviously more controversial, and I’m not one to simply count the number of accusers and say “if it’s that many or more, surely they can’t all be lying.” On the other hand, there are several seemingly otherwise disinterested testimonials to things like Moore having been the “older guy who gets banned from the mall for getting creepy with the teen girls.”

    Credible.

  14. paulie Post author

    It’s not just credible, the denials are not even credible. There are many accounts from many different women, all similar, and dozens – maybe a hundred or more – corroborating accounts from people they told years and even decades ago, people who worked with Moore, cops and security guards who knew he was banned at the mall and on predator watch at high school sports events, other people who worked at the mall and remember he was a habitual stalker there, and so on.

  15. paulie Post author

    As for the “openly avowed theocrat,” Bernie Sanders is an “openly avowed socialist”

    He’s more of a European-style social democrat. I don’t think he has any serious proposals to nationalize the means of production, does he?

    exactly how much success has he had getting even things like the $15/hour minimum wage passed nationally?

    It’s spreading throughout various states and cities, so who’s to say it won’t pass nationally? If the Democrats take congress in 2018 it could well start getting more consideration, and even more so if they also take the presidency in 2020.

    In terms of voting, Moore can’t accomplish anything more extreme than your typical Republican just like how Sanders can’t accomplish anything more extreme than your typical Democrat.

    The same would have been true if David Duke had been elected US Senator, yet back then the establishment parties would not give someone like that the time of day, even without child molestation allegations. Roy Moore is the same type of person as David Duke, just a different kind of bigotry. That’s not to say that Moore isn’t also a racial bigot but he does not put that front and center like Duke, but his bigotry against people of other religions, LGBT people, immigrants and his views on the role of women are every bit as bad. If anything, Duke is less bad even though he marched around in a nazi stormtrooper outfit and was the imperial wizard, he did not molest any high school girls or at least was not banned from the mall for being so persistent about it.

    To put it another way, Ted Bundy was a Republican in good standing and John Wayne Gacy was an active Democrat but back then their respective parties would not support them for the US Senate. Nowadays… well, we can’t be too sure.

  16. dL

    exactly how much success has he had getting even things like the $15/hour minimum wage passed nationally?

    FYI: wage labor is a capitalist construct, one that is abolished under state socialism. Minimum wage laws are a progressive invention meant to preserve the capitalist wage labor system. They are not state socialist. Indeed, there never has been an actual state socialist regime. Ever. Venezuela is not anywhere close to a state socialist economy. North Korea is not a completely state socialist economy. Neither was the old Soviet Union. And certainly not China. Jez, China is now the leading purveyor of globalist capitalism…managed by the Chinese Communist Party! And that should tell you something…the world runs the gambit of state capitalism, and Bernie Sanders represents a particular wing of state capitalism.

  17. DJ

    Bernie Sanders wants to make college free. More public education idiocy, which isn’t free.
    There is no such thing as free anything. Everything has a price. In the case of a socialist (or european democrat) they want everything to be free, except humans. That’s not to endorse our misrepresentatives course of action. Sanders is at least honest about his desires. I don’t think that can be said for the other idiots in DC. If minimum wage is officially declared nationwide it will be because the fed reserve backs it, not a politician, though a certain group may get credit.

    What people who advocate for a socialist styled agenda won’t acknowledge is humans practice altruism, meaning their “greater good” is filtered through bias. They also won’t recognize that ALL forms of control means someone has to be more equal than someone else.

    The [r]epublican form of governance IF adhered to is by far the most “fair”. Sadly our education system forgets to pass that knowledge on. It’s no wonder our elected misrepresentatives do. They were indoctrinated in the same system, and Bernie with his free college won’t change that. Nor will 15 bucks/hr., nor will Roy Moore, or Doug Jones, or Trump, or anyone elected unless he, or she, manages to abolish a failed system and politicians aren’t noted for admitting failure. Pointing out perceived flaws in others (accusations etc) is not a “credible” admission.

  18. George Phillies

    There has actually been some reporting on why Moore supporters prefer Moore to Jones. Those are the only two choices on the ballot. In one word…abortion. Moore supports restricting abortion. Jones supports making it available. The voters view future actions in the Senate as being overwhelmingly more important than the deeds of 35 years ago.

  19. George Phillies

    As an additional bit of comic relief, Alabama has ticket voting, so you can vote by checking teh Democratic or Republican box and vote for all of their candidates at the same time.

    Astute readers will note that there is only one special election, so you would be voting for all one D or R candidate as the straight ticket.

  20. paulie Post author

    Those are the only two choices on the ballot.

    Write-ins don’t have to be registered.

    In one word…abortion. Moore supports restricting abortion. Jones supports making it available.

    I’m going to guess David Duke also probably supports restricting abortion. By that logic there’s no reason not to elect him to the Senate.

    The Evangelical Case for Voting for David Duke https://mereorthodoxy.com/evangelicals-endorsing-donald-trump/

  21. paulie Post author

    Astute readers will note that there is only one special election, so you would be voting for all one D or R candidate as the straight ticket.

    That’s bad news. Some of the Republican write-ins will mark Republican and then write in, but I am guessing those will be counted for Moore. Although, they may be considered spoiled ballots, which would not be as bad.

  22. dL

    Those are the only two choices on the ballot. In one word…abortion.

    It’s the female uterus, stupid…

    #shariaLawProverb

  23. Luke

    Last year the Republicans decided that they were OK with an evil clown who habitually grabbed and groped women without permission, had more bankruptcies and divorces than he can count, dodged the draft, burned and cheated countless business partners, clients, lenders, customers, employees, contractors, and anyone who took his word in just about anything in his 70 year life to date… a stooge, puppet and open admirer of foreign dictators both living and dead, a childish senior adult who habitually engages in playground insults and behavior.

    They’ve stood by him as he has insulted foreign leaders, supported nazis and the KKK, obstructed justice in the official investigation into his and his whole team’s racketeering influenced and corrupt organizational collusion with a hostile foreign regime to manipulate the US presidential election and enrich themselves through their new official positions in the process, with the Trump family right at the center of it all.

    They’re now standing by him as he has endorsed a child molesting theocrat for the US Senate, and are standing by that child molesting theocrat themselves.

    There’s a reason why no one here is arguing against the suggestion that they would now support David Duke for Senator, Governor or, who knows, President. On what possible grounds would they oppose him if they support Donald Trump and Roy Moore? Every excuse and justification Republicans have made for supporting Trump and Moore would apply equally to Duke.

  24. paulie Post author

    One problem with the silly talking point that the reason why the “establishment hates Moore” is that he’s a non-interventionist is that Moore’s own TV ads tout Trump’s argument that Moore is strong on the military vis a vis Jones, who they say is “weak on the military.” So it seems that Moore would actually be better for the military contractors than Jones would be. Maybe that’s why McConnell is no longer willing to say that Moore should not be in the Senate, even if Moore doesn’t return the favor?

  25. Luke

    The Republicans are now officially nothing more than chumps for Trump and whores for Moore (with apologies to actual whores). There is nothing whatsoever left of any principles they ever claimed they stood for. Even pretending that there is is no longer credible. This should be good for third parties and independents, but it isn’t. Their votes are actually down in the 2017 elections despite a growing majority of the public telling pollsters that a generic “third” party is needed, that they are not affiliated with either the Democrats or Republicans, that neither of those parties is doing a good job, etc.

    Republicans have now learned that fear of the Democrats will get voters to support literally any criminally insane psychopath they push forward, even people as sick as Trump and Moore. They no longer have any immunity system to ever worse candidates getting their nomination for any office. Be prepared for a virtual parade of comic book villains, prison psych ward candidates and escapees, and Charlottesville fash marchers on the Republican ballot lines of the future.

  26. Anon-Tipper

    Luke: “Be prepared for a virtual parade of comic book villains, prison psych ward candidates and escapees, and Charlottesville fash marchers on the Republican ballot lines of the future.”

    Steve Davies thinks the Republicans are going to become an explicitly nationalist party in the near future. It’s time for libertarians to detach from the right unless we want to get buried in this cancer.

  27. Anon-Tipper

    Paulie: “One problem with the silly talking point that the reason why the “establishment hates Moore” is that he’s a non-interventionist is that Moore’s own TV ads tout Trump’s argument that Moore is strong on the military vis a vis Jones, who they say is “weak on the military.””

    Did you except right-wing populism to make sense?

  28. paulie Post author

    Steve Davies thinks the Republicans are going to become an explicitly nationalist party in the near future.

    I think he’s right …

    It’s time for libertarians to detach from the right unless we want to get buried in this cancer.

    …and I have been saying that for at least 25 years now.

  29. paulie Post author

    Did you except right-wing populism to make sense?

    No, just addressing so-called arguments made in possibly this and definitely other IPR threads by William Saturn, Thane Eichenauer et al.

  30. Anon-Tipper

    paulie: “and I have been saying that for at least 25 years now.”

    Thank you! I think there’s some more momentum behind it lately. But I still see some (a lot) of hanger-on-ers, I’ve been told quite literally that “traditionally” libertarians supported conservative social positions, the amount of people that twist the label to hide their true beliefs is astonishing.

    “No, just addressing so-called arguments made in possibly this and definitely other IPR threads by William Saturn, Thane Eichenauer et al.”

    Don’t worry, I was joking! It’s an interesting point about McConnell, maybe he thinks Moore is going to win anyway so doesn’t want to make enemies.

  31. paulie Post author

    It’s an interesting point about McConnell, maybe he thinks Moore is going to win anyway so doesn’t want to make enemies.

    It’s not clear whether Moore will win. I think he will, and he’s a little bit ahead in polls, but Jones is in striking distance and has a bigger budget for get out the vote, which could be a critical deciding factor. Jones is dominating in TV ads and in lawn signs in swing areas (well off, mostly white suburbs). As for making enemies, Moore has already made it clear he will target McConnell and try to get him out of leadership. So I would say it’s too late on that one.

  32. paulie Post author

    Also, where can I find information on what positions are up for election on the LNC and who’s running? I only know about chair and vice chair.

    All of LNC is up for election every two years, at least unless and until bylaws are changed. Region reps and alternates are elected by their regions, which can change at the convention. Chair, vice chair, secretary, treasurer and 5 at large are elected by the whole convention. I don’t know much about who all is running, but most of the incumbents will most likely run again.

  33. Anon-Tipper

    “It’s not clear whether Moore will win. I think he will, and he’s a little bit ahead in polls, but Jones is in striking distance and has a bigger budget for get out the vote, which could be a critical deciding factor.”

    Yeah, seems pretty close ATM. Heard on my local station slight lead for Moore in likely voters, about even with Jones in all voters.

    “Moore has already made it clear he will target McConnell and try to get him out of leadership”

    Hadn’t seen that, not really following it too closely. I never thought I would see the day I would side with McConnell (although I thought he was somewhat good on 1st amendment issues, idk?). The populists seem very determined to change the composition of the Republican party, looking back it seems we’ve should’ve seen this coming a couple decades ago.

    “Chair, vice chair, secretary, treasurer and 5 at large are elected by the whole convention”

    Thanks for the info! All I know is the Cancer Caucus endorsed Josh for chair and Alex Merced for Vice.

  34. Anon-Tipper

    Looks like Ramsey and Josh are endorsing Alex Merced. I’ve seen some of Alex’s debates (we’re in the same state) so I thought he seemed good. I wonder what he thinks about them.

  35. paulie Post author

    Yeah, seems pretty close ATM. Heard on my local station slight lead for Moore in likely voters, about even with Jones in all voters.

    Unlikely voters could end up voting if there is enough get out the vote effort, which is why Jones could still have a real chance.

    The populists seem very determined to change the composition of the Republican party, looking back it seems we’ve should’ve seen this coming a couple decades ago.

    It can be seen starting at least as far back as the Dixiecrats backing Goldwater and Nixon’s Southern strategy, Reagan announcing his campaign in Mississippi, etc.

  36. Anon-Tipper

    “It can be seen starting at least as far back as the Dixiecrats backing Goldwater…”

    Yup!

  37. SocraticGadfly

    Paulie, yes, Texas Greens lost ballot access as a result of the 2016 election. Dems rounded up a late, and IMO, unqualified candidate, for Court of Criminal Appeals Place 5. Greens therefore missed the 5 percent in any statewide race cutoff.

  38. paulie Post author

    Paulie, yes, Texas Greens lost ballot access as a result of the 2016 election. Dems rounded up a late, and IMO, unqualified candidate, for Court of Criminal Appeals Place 5. Greens therefore missed the 5 percent in any statewide race cutoff.

    Thanks – I forgot that earlier but subsequently remembered.

  39. Krzysztof Lesiak

    First of all, I want to apologize to Chuck Moulton for my tirade against him in response to him correctly pointing out that I’m a schizo off my meds ranting about how women are not attracted to me and about the cult I just joined (Jehovah Witnesses). Chuck, I’m sorry for what I wrote, it was so mean spirited and quite frankly unwarranted.

    The reality is I’ve been deprived of sex so long that I think that this in and of itself is a mental illness. That tirade mentioned above was more applicable to me. I’ve struck out with girls more times than Barry Bonds used steirods.

    At least I still have IPR comments section- a refuge for someone like myself why I don’t have to constantly think about my life’s numerous failures. Cheers for IPR!

  40. Chuck Moulton

    Krzysztof Lesiak wrote:

    The reality is I’ve been deprived of sex so long that I think that this in and of itself is a mental illness. That tirade mentioned above was more applicable to me. I’ve struck out with girls more times than Barry Bonds used steirods.

    I don’t have any luck with women either.

    I’d suggest focusing on self-improvement though (working out, education, fun hobbies) and pro-actively seeking dates on various websites / apps rather than blaming others and alienating people.

  41. paulie Post author

    I think it’s more attitude than anything else. When everything was going well for me I had a very easy time getting women, I did not really even have to try…they flocked to me. Later it became exactly the opposite, I couldn’t get laid in a whorehouse with a $100 and I never had a $100 anyway. At various times since then, it may have been slightly better, but nothing like when I was a kid.

  42. dL

    Did dL post that or was it Nathan Norman?

    The Stanhope tweet? I don’t believe peckerwoods are in the business of reposting Doug Stanhope

  43. paulie Post author

    Good watch party with Ron Bishop and friends. I have some of the leftover food… if anyone is around Bessemer, you’re welcome to stop by and have some of it with me.

  44. DJ

    SPLC-Exposed

    http://splcexposed.com/

    The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) was founded by Morris Dees in 1971 to identify and condemn hate groups in the United States, including neo-Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan. In more recent years, it has attempted to discredit individuals and groups that support conservative political principles. The SPLC’s reckless barrage of attacks on conservatism has been admired by left-wing terrorists, and even inspired an attempted mass murder on a conservative organization in 2012 for defending views on traditional marriage. Since the false and defamatory claims made by the SPLC to silence opposition, they have been thoroughly discredited by individuals and groups across the political spectrum and throughout the media.

  45. Gina

    “it has attempted to discredit individuals and groups that support conservative political principles. ”

    Only if your “conservative political principles” are dog whistle bigotry. There are plenty of mainstream conservative and libertarian groups and parties that SPLC has no problem whatsoever with.

    “… defending views on traditional marriage…”

    “Traditional marriage” is fake news. Actual traditional marriage was arranged by families as a business deal, not based on love or by the parties to the marriage in any way. It was in most times and places polygamous and involved teenagers or even prepubescent children being married, sometimes to each other or sometimes to older men. In many times and places wives were inherited by family members along with the rest of the deceased’s estate, at other times and places buried or burned with their dead husbands. As recently as two generations ago many US states still had laws against interracial marriages and judges frequently ordering women to stay with husbands who they wanted to leave. What exactly is “traditional marriage”?

    “Since the false and defamatory claims made by the SPLC to silence opposition, ”

    Such as?

    “they have been thoroughly discredited by individuals and groups across the political spectrum and throughout the media.”

    Which individuals and groups and how did they do so?

    Also…who is behind “splcexposed.com”?

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