Andy Jacobs: Libertarians should elect a Sheriff and implement the “deputize ’em” plan

36 thoughts on “Andy Jacobs: Libertarians should elect a Sheriff and implement the “deputize ’em” plan

  1. DJ

    The idea brought to mind https://www.oathkeepers.org/about/

    Board of Directors

    Stewart Rhodes, Army Airborne Veteran, Yale Law School Graduate, OK Founder and President

    John D. Shirley, Retired Duty Peace Officer – Houston, TX. National Lead Liaison to Peace Officers.

    Jay Stang, Veteran US Marine Corps – Texas Chapter President

    Jim Ayala, EMT Veteran, Oath Keepers Treasurer, Merchandise

    Michele Imburgia, Texas State VP

    Sheriff Denny Peyman, Retired Jackson County, KY Sheriff, OK National Peace Officer Liaison

    John Kerriman, Current Missouri police academy instructor, police veteran, OK National Peace Officer/LEO Liaison

    And IIRC there were some sheriffs involved. I think it’s a good idea, but, voters have to be made more aware of what libertarian means and how it would benefit them to vote any libertarian into a powerful position.

  2. Matthew Schutter

    Andy, I ran for Carbon County Pa Sheriff in 2015. If I can get soeone to run for Sheriff next year would you donate your time gathering signatures for us?

  3. robert capozzi

    aj,

    It’s been 10+ years since I met you. You haven’t aged a day!

    What’s your secret?

  4. Andy

    DJ, i am familiar with Oath Keepers. How come they, and the Libertarian Party, are not busy electing the Deptize ‘Em plan somewhere?

    Matthew, I do not know where I am going to be or what I am going to be doing during that time period, so I can’t commit to anything. If I am available I would certainly be interesting in doing it. Whether I am there or not, it sounds like a good idea, and it would be great to see a real effort put into this.

    Robert, I believe it was December of 2010 when Paul and I had diner with you at an African restaurant in Maryland. That was 7 years and one month ago. It could have been January of 2011, which was 7 years ago, but I am pretty sure it was December of 2010.

  5. paulie Post author

    What’s your secret?

    You should see the oil portrait of him in the closet at his parents’ house.

    But more seriously I don’t think it’s been ten years since that one time you, me, Andy and Chuck met up in Maryland. I want to say that was maybe 2011 or 2013, something like that.

  6. DJ

    Andy: DJ, i am familiar with Oath Keepers. How come they, and the Libertarian Party, are not busy electing the Deptize ‘Em plan somewhere?

    Me: I don’t have a clue and was wondering the same thing.

  7. Andy

    The only people at that meeting were Paul, Robert Capozzi, and myself. It was at an African restaurant in Maryland in December of 2010. I am pretty sure it was in Montgomery County, but it could have been in Prince George’s County (both of those counties are DC suburbs).

    Paul and I were working on a ballot access petition drive for the LP of Maryland at the time.

    We were in Maryland until January of 2011, but I think we were only there for maybe a week or so into January, probably not more that two weeks. I’m pretty sure the meeting with Robert Capozzi happened in December.

  8. Andy

    DJ, it is not happening because Oath Keepers is not focusing on the game of politics, and the group that supposedly is, the Libertarian Party, is a dysfunctional mess.

  9. paulie Post author

    Chuck Moulton was also there. I’ll defer to you on the date when it happened as you remember that kind of stuff better than me. But I can guarantee Chuck was there.

  10. Paul Grad

    What redress would a member of the public have if one of these deputized Libertarians turned out to be non-Libertarian and violated the civil rights of that citizen, i.e. violated the NAP? Also, say an anti-Libertarian group like a cell of Stalinists got a Stalinist elected calling themselves Libertarian, who would then deputize the members of the cell, and then launch a reign of terror on Capitalists in the county. Or a religious fanatic group, that would take over the Sheriffs dept posing as libertarians, and then persecute members of a rival religion? What would you do in those cases? If Federal employees entered the county to enforce Civil Rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, the members of this rogue group that took over the Sheriff’s Department would have the weaponry to inflict severe damage. So what redress does a citizen have, and how could you prevent pseudo-Libertarians from taking over a Department?

  11. Andy

    “Paul Grad
    January 26, 2018 at 22:23
    What redress would a member of the public have if one of these deputized Libertarians turned out to be non-Libertarian and violated the civil rights of that citizen, i.e. violated the NAP? Also, say an anti-Libertarian group like a cell of Stalinists got a Stalinist elected calling themselves Libertarian, who would then deputize the members of the cell, and then launch a reign of terror on Capitalists in the county. Or a religious fanatic group, that would take over the Sheriffs dept posing as libertarians, and then persecute members of a rival religion? What would you do in those cases? If Federal employees entered the county to enforce Civil Rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, the members of this rogue group that took over the Sheriff’s Department would have the weaponry to inflict severe damage. So what redress does a citizen have, and how could you prevent pseudo-Libertarians from taking over a Department?”

    What redress do we have now? We have elected and appointed government officials who routinely violate the Constitution that they swear an oath to uphold and defend, and they almost always get away with it.

    Could people who call themselves libertarians get elected to office, and once in office, not really be libertarian? Sure, at at that point they would be LINO’s (Libertarian In Name Only). Heck, we’ve had people who aren’t really libertarians show up at Libertarian Party National Conventions, claim to be libertarians, and get nominated to run for President and Vice President from for the party, and they were nominated because a bunch of conventions delegates were either a) very naive, or b) not really libertarian either.

    The chance of infiltrators, saboteurs, opportunistic con-artists, and the philosophically weak and/or timid screwing things up is always a possibility, but consider how screwed up things already are, it is a chance that we will have to take.

    If we lived in an anarcho-capitalist society, at least there would be no taxes, so there would not be any taxpayer funded police, and there’d also be no elections, unless they were held by voluntary associations, which would mean that the outcome of the election would only apply to those who consented to it. We do not live in an anarcho-capitalist society, but even if we did, there’d still likely be problems, and there’d still be the possibility of saboteurs and/or LINO’s (Libertarians In Name Only) screwing it up.

    I have some ideas for possibilities of how to deal with LINO’s in my Libertarian Zone concept, which is an anarcho-capitalist contract based, covenant community, where people who violate the Libertarian Zone contract would face penalties, which would range from restitution, to restitution plus banishment/shunning, or worse if there are any particularly nasty contract violators. The contracts could be enforced by anyone, through a bounty system. If an offense was minor, and the contract violator agreed to pay restitution, and actually did so in a timely manner, then there’d be no need for a bounty to go up on their heard. However, for a more serious offense, or for even a minor offense where the contract violator refuses to pay restitution, a bounty would go up on the offenders head, and anyone would be free to collect the bounty, and the offender would also go on a list of people to shun from the community. Contract enforcers would be free to use violence, including extreme violence, against the contract violator in these cases, if necessary. If a contract violator is to be shunned from the community, and they refuse to leave, they would be “physically removed,” and if they resist physical removal, they would face the risk of serious injury or death.

    Remember, the Libertarian Zone is a private property community, like a giant condominium complex, with the residents of the Libertarian Zone bound by the terms of the Libertarian Zone contract. Don’t like the terms? Then don’t live there. There could also be more than one Libertarian Zone, with different variations in the details of the contract.

    The Libertarian Zone would work so long as the people living there made it work, as in the people there would have to abide by the terms of the contract. The basic point of the contract is to say that those that live there agree to abide by the Non-Aggression Principle, and if they violate it, there’d be a built in defense mechanism to deal with contract violators.

    If a bunch of people in the Libertarian Zone started behaving as LINO’s, it could end up collapsing, so it would take a population of rugged individualists who are committed to the cause to keep it going. Read more here: http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2014/07/andy-jacobs-the-libertarian-zone/ .

  12. DJ

    Andy: DJ, it is not happening because Oath Keepers is not focusing on the game of politics, and the group that supposedly is, the Libertarian Party, is a dysfunctional mess.

    Me: I heard that! LOL…. dysfunctional is very polite from what I’ve seen here.

    I like your premise though.
    It would be a massive undertaking with massive rewards.
    It gives me a headache just thinking about the degree of difficulty. But I’ll admit I don’t have the energy, physically or mentally I once had.

    This page has only 150 ‘shares’

    https://cspoa.org/

    I found that looking for Richard Mack who I remembered from the past which is why I responded in the first place. He’s a Republican.

    In my talking with others, most who identify as Republicans have ‘some’ libertarian leanings, but, I’m not sure that’s enough of a ‘push’ to elect someone outside their bubble. It amazes me and stymies me that those who are ‘allegedly’ well educated can’t see beyond the nose on their face and are so close minded politically. Not only that, but I don’t recall ever having heard anyone discussing the “up-coming Sheriff race” – Thus “massive” undertaking.

  13. DJ

    Following the link above I found this.

    https://cspoa.org/vet-your-sheriff/

    21 shares

    Our movement is apolitical as a constitutional Sheriff not defined as Democrat, Republican or Libertarian. A constitutional Sheriff, in reference to their OATH, their citizenry, and the constitution is dedicated to UPHOLD – DEFEND – PROTECT – SERVE.

    At least Libertarian is recognized. I wonder about their definition of the words used. I think (though w/o verification) they seem pretty straight forward.
    My definitions:
    Uphold- respect
    Defend- to stand against
    Protect- to stand for
    Serve- do the bidding of another

  14. Andy

    Richard Mack was in the Libertarian Party for several years. He ran for US Senate as a Libertarian Party candidate several years back. If he is in the Republican Party now, it is likely due to him being frustrated with the lack of progress and dysfunction prevalent in the LP.

  15. Thane Eichenauer

    Those that wish to read up on the latest political activities of Richard Mack could do worse than visiting the following three URLs. He is apparently a Republican if Ballotpedia is to be believed. He is apparently a ballot qualified candidate for the special election to replace Trent Franks (AZ CD 8). The Republican primary will be held on February 27, 2018. I’ve seen him talk a couple of times here in Arizona. Mack is not among the three top Republicans per Ballotpedia.

    I like him and enjoyed reading up on his US supreme court appeal (1995) over the Brady law (the court found in his favor) when he was the sheriff of Graham county, Arizona.
    http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1387841.html

    https://ballotpedia.org/Arizona%27s_8th_Congressional_District_special_election,_2018
    https://sheriffrichardmack.com/
    https://www.facebook.com/SheriffMack/

    Open Secrets on this election:
    https://www.opensecrets.org/races/candidates?cycle=2018&id=AZ08&spec=N

  16. DJ

    Andy: If he is in the Republican Party now, it is likely due to him being frustrated with the lack of progress and dysfunction prevalent in the LP.

    Me: No doubt. If there is any doubt he need only to visit this web site. dl said, cohesion is not wanted.
    In my estimation, cohesion is a prerequisite for electing/naming/nominating anything.

    That said, I understand the “independence” of Individuals and the desire to maintain it. That is THE reason I abstain from groups. But, cohesion is part and parcel to ‘any’ group- so, that, to me, leaves only one alternative to spreading the word, so to speak. Sow seeds. I mentioned it in the other thread and got no responses- < imagine that. A dysfunctional “group” not wanting ‘outsider’ influence in spreading the word, regardless of how effective it would be. But, they will argue advantages/disadvantages, esoterically, til the cows come home.

    Libertarians will never be successful to any degree of note. No matter what campaign is under taken.
    BUT, they could pool their resources and affect a national recognition relatively easy…..

  17. dL

    Me: No doubt. If there is any doubt he need only to visit this web site. dl said, cohesion is not wanted.

    I said party cohesion was not the ultimate trump. And it is pretty clear that the “oath keepers” were nothing more than anti-Obama org, and that someone like Mack is pretty self-selective about what is “constitutional.”

  18. DJ

    Why has my response to dl not posted here and when I try to repost it it says it’s a duplicate?

  19. Andy

    I met Richard Mack while I was gathering petition signatures to Recall Gray Davis from the office of Governor of California back in 2003 at a gun show that was at the Ventura County Fairgrounds, in Ventura, California. I was gathering signatures outside the gate to get into the show from the parking lot. Behind me on either side of the gate leading up the structure the show was in there were two tables on either side of the gate. One of them was the National Rifle Association (or NRA). The other was Gun Owners of America. One of the people running the Gun Owners of America table was former Sheriff, Richard Mack.

    I was out there for may an hour to two, and things were going pretty good, but then I was interrupted by a lady who was the promoter of the gun show. Now one would think that a gun who promoter would have supported what I was doing (I worked 4 other gun shows during the Recall Gray Davis petition drive, one in Santa Maria (Santa Barbra County), one in Costa Mesa (Orange County), and one in Riverside County, I think it was in Cordova). I had not problem at any of the other gun shows, but this lady who was the promoter of this gun show in Ventura came out and started screaming at me, telling me that I had to leave or she was going to have me arrested. I tried to explain what I was doing, and that I had a legal right to do this under state law, but she did not care. Then she said something to the effect of that Gary Davis had made a compromise with some gun show promoters, as gun shows had been banned in certain parts of California, like I believe in the city limits of Los Angeles and San Francisco, and there were people in the state legislature who wanted to ban all gun shows, but that supposedly some kind of deal was struck to allow gun shows to continue in certain areas (I don’t think they could have realistically gotten away with banning all gun shows in California, at least not in 2003). I responded by pointing out that Gray Davis was not really good on gun rights, and that there were several reasons for recalling him for office (California recall petitions include a section that says why the recall was launched against an elected official, and it also has a space for the elected official facing recall to provide a rebuttal for why they should not be recalled), but that none of this was even relevant, because I had a legal right to be there to ask people to sign the petition. So I refused to leave, and then she called the police on me.

    After she called the police on me, the NRA guys started saying, “You better get out of here now. You are going to be arrested. You better just go.” I told them that I knew what my legal rights were, and that I was not going to leave, and I continued asking people to sign the petition.

    A little while later, a manager from the Ventura County Fairgrounds came out, and he walked in my direction with some papers in his hands. He walked right by me, and walked up to this woman who was the show promoter, and much to her chagrin, she told him that I did have a legal right to be there to ask people to sign petitions or to register to vote (note that I was doing both). This woman had a shocked look of embarrassment on her face, and then she covered her face up and scurried back inside the building where the gun show was being held. The police never even bothered to show up (probably because they knew that I had a legal right to be there, so it would have been a waste of their time to go there).

    After this happened, a guy came out from behind the Gun Owners of America table and introduced himself as Sheriff Richard Mack. He said that he was really impressed with the way that I handled myself. He then invited me to join Gun Owners of America, and he said that I could get a GOA t-shirt if I signed up. So I went over the to GOA table and singed up (I joined at their lowest rate, which was like $25, although it could have been less), and I picked out a GOA t-shirt. I talked to Richard Mack for a few minutes about the Libertarian Party and related topics. He seemed like a good fellow.

  20. Andy

    “(I worked 4 other gun shows during the Recall Gray Davis petition drive, one in Santa Maria (Santa Barbra County), one in Costa Mesa (Orange County), and one in Riverside County, I think it was in Cordova). ”

    This should read that I worked 3 other guns shows during the Recall Governor Gray Davis petition drive, in addition to the one at the Ventura County Fairgrounds, in Ventura, CA.

  21. Andy

    ” Now one would think that a gun who promoter”

    Should read, “Now one would think that a gun show promoter…”

  22. Andy

    I am not talking about deputining “the pigs”. I am talking about deputining libertarians.

    The reason that libertarian are involved with electoral politics, is so we can takeover government, and set people free, or at the very least, influence public policy to move in a Libertarian direction.

    If this Korean vigilante group is preventing some crime, that is great, but this is not going to make the government police go away, and it is not stopping the government police from violating people’s rights.

    If we lives in an ideal world, there would be no coercive government, so police as we know them today would not exist.

    We do not live in an ideal world. Sheriff’s departments exist, and they enforce laws at the county level. Libertarians can try to take over these offices by electing libertarians as Sheriff’s, and once elected, they can appoint libertarians as deputies, or libertarians can continue to allow Democrats and Republicans to run every Sheriff’s Department in the country, and then sit around and whine when they violate people’s rights.

  23. Andy

    “I am not talking about deputining “the pigs”. I am talking about deputining libertarians.”

    Should read, “deputizing…”

  24. Andy

    “dL
    January 27, 2018 at 17:17
    Personally, I would go with the Koreatown Popular Assembly
    http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/20864/grassroots_organizers_ice_7_eleven_raids_immigration_koreatown_deportation

    I just clicked the link, and not surprisingly, dL had to throw in some comment about immigration raids, as if this is something that would not happen if he lived in a private property society, and as if security guards in a private property society would not throw trespassers off of private property, and out of private cities.

    If a bunch of white Americans went to Korea, North or South, and violated either country’s immigration laws, do you think that the Koreans would let them stay and make them citizens, or would they throw their asses out?

    Koreans tend not to be as bad as some immigrant groups when it comes to sucking up welfare money, but when it comes to voting, they, like most other modern immigrant groups, vote in super-majority numbers for expanding the welfare state, and being that they are Asian, statistics indicate that Asians as a group are the most anti-gun rights (as compared to whites, who have 57% support for gun rights, blacks are at around 39% support for gun rights, Hispanics are at 25% support for gun rights, and Asians are at only 20% support for gun rights).

    Whether anyone here likes it or not, the world is arranged into different governments, and government control the land and infrastructure within their jurisdiction. Given that government controls the land, and not private property owners, the government monopolizes regulation of land. This is going to be the case whether you are in the USA, Mexico, Korea, Poland, Israel, Japan, Saudi Arabia, or anywhere else in this world. There is no country where people can just show up and start using the land/infrastructure, and become citizens of another country and start taking part in their system of government.

    Immigration and Naturalization laws are perfectly constitutional, and if the state did not exist, this is a function that would be handled by private property owners, with the only exception being in cases of unclaimed land, but of course once that land was homesteaded, the homesteader would then be the private property owner, and would then be able to regulate migration on their land.

    Check out what an honest Korean American libertarian, who goes by the name Jefferson Kim, has to say about Korean ethnic enclaves.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vFx5ilYRc0

  25. Andy

    I have posted the following story from the Washington Post here before, and now I’m posting it again just in case anyone is wonder where I got the support for gun rights figures from above.

    The NRA will fall. It’s inevitable.
    Just look at the demographics.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/10/19/the-nra-will-fall-its-inevitable/?utm_term=.6b64ce0f1886

    From the article:
    The fastest-growing minority group in America is Latinos. Between 2000 and 2010, the nation’s Latino population grew by 43 percent. Hispanics, which make up 17 percent of the population today, are expected to grow to 30 percent of the population in the coming decades.

    Gun control is extremely popular among Hispanics, with 75 percent favoring gun safety over gun rights.

    Asian Americans also represent a growing anti-gun demographic. Although only about 5 percent of the population today, the Asian American population is predicted to triple over the next few decades. A recent poll of Asian American registered voters found that 80 percent supported stricter gun laws.”

  26. DJ

    Republicans heavily favor immigration laws.

    Favoring gun control laws is not an issue, IMO. Too many guns to enforce. It’s a good anti-democrat/demographic (selling fear tool) argument though.

  27. DJ

    Andy: I met Richard Mack while I was gathering petition signatures to Recall Gray Davis from the office of Governor of California back in 2003 at a gun show that was at the Ventura County Fairgrounds, in Ventura, California.

    Me: Neat story Andy. But, Mack was ‘just’ and anti-Obama tool….. according to dl. That’s bad apparently.

  28. dL

    Me: Neat story Andy. But, Mack was ‘just’ and anti-Obama tool….. according to dl. That’s bad apparently.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/trump-may-be-abandoning-birthers-they-re-not-abandoning-him-n649591


    Richard Mack, a former Arizona sheriff and the founder of the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association, still believes Obama’s birth certificate is a forgery. But said he agrees with Trump’s decision to drop the issue for now. “Move on Donald and keep up the fight,” he said.

    “Move on Donald and keep up the fight.”
    “Trump had the courage to come out and look at it and agree with Sheriff Arpaio’s investigation. Any second grader who saw it would have said the same thing, the evidence was so clear, ” Mack said.

    Immigration, migration control is not mentioned in the constitution. Yet, ole Mack goes to Washington to beg for federal intervention RE: human migration on the grounds that it was an invading army foreign invasion. lol

    https://www.newsmax.com/Newsmax-Tv/Richard-Mack-illegal-immigration-joblessness-crime/2014/12/11/id/612577/

  29. DJ

    dl: Immigration, migration control is not mentioned in the constitution. Yet, ole Mack goes to Washington to beg for federal intervention RE: human migration on the grounds that it was an invading army foreign invasion. lol

    Me: That’s immaterial to what I said- being anti-obama is apparently as bad thing- and please don’t pretend any politician acts constitutionally. Even the anointed.

  30. DJ

    BTW, dl, IF you’d bother to read you’d notice I said Andy’s idea “reminded” me of “Oath Keepers”….that isn’t an endorsement. The reason I said it was because I remember it made me aware of the power of a sheriff….thanks to Richard Mack. I also pointed out to Andy, he is a Republican.

    In the scheme of things there ain’t a dimes worth of difference between D politicians or R politicians.
    They all subscribe to the same monetary policy, the same foreign policy and the same domestic policy, and it could be argued all 3 policy subscriptions are not constitutional. Including those of the anointed one, Obama, who as it turns out was Bush2 reincarnated and did the same things Romney advocated for- a continuation of the 3 flawed, and arguably unconstitutional policy doctrines.

    But, please continue moving the goal post. I’m sure you’ll find something esoteric where you can shine.

  31. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Oath Keepers is an anti-government[1][2][3][4][5][a] American organization associated with the patriot and militia movements[7][8] considered to be far-right.[9][6] The group describes itself as a non-partisan association of current and former military, police, and first responders, who pledge to fulfill the oath that all military and police take in order to “defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic”.[10] It encourages members – some of whom are current and former U.S. military and law enforcement officers – not to obey orders which they believe would violate the United States Constitution. The organization claims a membership of 35,000.[11]

    what is this silliness? the only good part of constitution is bill of rights.

  32. Andy

    I would much rather have Oath Keepers working as cops than the typical people you find working in law enforcement.

    My point here was not really to promote the Oath Keepers organization (although I do like them), but rather to promote the idea of Libertarians running for Sheriff, and once elected, appointing Libertarians as deputies. Whether or not this is done in conjunction with Oath Keepers is not really important, I just want to see it happen.

    This could be done outside the Libertarian Party, as in small “l” libertarians could do it, and it would still be a very good thing, but it would be nice to see the Libertarian Party do it so the party can take credit for it. I think that it would be great publicity for the LP.

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