LNC meeting coverage, Denver, April 21-22, 2018

photo by Joe Buchman

A meeting of the Libertarian National Committee will take place on Saturday, April 21 and Sunday, April 22 in Denver, Colorado.

The meeting started at 9:00 a.m. MDT on Saturday.

The LNC will attempt to stream the meeting live on the Internet. Be advised that broadcast quality has sometimes been low and intermittent.

The event page has additional details about the hotel location, meeting agenda, and regional reports.

IPR liveblogging, as usual, will be in he comments.

From the event page:

Libertarian National Committee (LNC) quarterly business meeting

Who: LNC and some staff. All Libertarian Party members welcome to observe the business meeting.

Live Broadcast: The LNC will attempt to stream the meeting live on the Internet. Be advised that broadcast quality has sometimes been low and intermittent.

Main Broadcast — Channel 1: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/libertarian-party1

Possible Backup Broadcast — Channel 2: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/QhDdfs2AXHZ

Proposed Agenda and Reports

2018-04-21_LNC_Meeting_Agenda_Proposed
2018-04-21_LNC_Meeting_Awards_Report
2018-04-21_LNC_Meeting_Ballot_Access_Report
2018-04-21_LNC_Meeting_Campus_Report
2018-04-21_LNC_Meeting_Candidate_Support_Report
2018-04-21_LNC_Meeting_Chairs_Report
2018-04-21_LNC_Meeting_EPCC_Report
2018-04-21_LNC_Meeting_Financial_Report
2018-04-21_LNC_Meeting_International_Rep_Report
2018-04-21_LNC_Meeting_LNC_Policy_Manual
2018-04-21_LNC_Meeting_Membership_Report
2018-04-21_LNC_Meeting_Region_5_Report
2018-04-21_LNC_Meeting_Region_8_Report
2018-04-21_LNC_Meeting_Secretarys_Report
2018-04-21_LNC_Meetingb_2018-01-16_LNC-EC_Minutes
2018-04-21_LNC_Meetingb_2018-02-02_LNC_Minutes
2018-04-21_LNC_Meetingb_2018-02-24_LNC_EC_Minutes
2018-04-21_LNC_Meetingb_2018-03-21_LNC-EC_Minutes

Additional reports may be at LNC list.

450 thoughts on “LNC meeting coverage, Denver, April 21-22, 2018

  1. paulie Post author

    Public comments?

    66% of NM residents receptive to a third party, stronger than usual LP candidates in NM. Stream coming in and out.

  2. paulie Post author

    Stream is off; trying the backup channel. I was going to try to be there in person but logistics issues prevented it.

  3. paulie Post author

    Stream has been too inconsistent so far for me to liveblog. If someone there who is not at the table is reading please fill in until this is straightened out.

  4. paulie Post author

    Stream back up thanks Paulie!

    It cuts in and out, mostly out. Possible that the problem is on my end. Is anyone else watching from home?

  5. Robert Kraus

    I suspect Lauren will give a report but I think $12k plus. Went on for 2 hours past planned time and tons of candidates and elected folks got to speak. Thank you LPCO & Michelle for hosting!

  6. Joseph Buchman

    At Large Member Bill Redpath reports this is the “coziest” seating arrangement for an LNC meeting in his memory. Additional tables to be added to the square at the lunch break.

  7. Starchild

    Paulie – I didn’t hear any final numbers. I think $5000 or $7000 was mentioned as having been raised at some point during the evening. Much more was raised at St. Louis, however that fundraiser involved a generous matching grant.

  8. Starchild

    I made a motion to formally allow opportunity for public comment at the end of each day’s meeting, not just the beginning, and for each item on the agenda. It was voted down by I believe 9-5. I don’t have all the votes, but know at least the following:

    YES (for member participation)
    myself
    David Demarest
    Caryn Ann Harlos

    NO (against member participation)
    Bill Redpath
    Elizabeth Van Horn
    Sam Goldstein
    Alicia Mattson

  9. Steve Scheetz

    Our Treasurer, Tim Hagan was asked by Jim Lark if he would host a training for Treasurers regarding reporting to the FEC and other bodies. Tim stated that he was agreeable to this, and Daniel Hayes stated that toe convention committee would be thrilled to see such a session take place during the NOLA convention.

    More details will follow as they become available.

    Sincerely,

    Steve Scheetz

  10. Starchild

    Alicia Mattson is currently trying to remove from the minutes taken by Caryn Ann Harlos at a previous meeting, some of the useful information Harlos included about what happened at the meeting.

  11. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Meeting minutes are too easy to politicize. Just accurately printing up proposals should explain the issue and people can use imaginations as to why things were voted up or down. Or they can ask LNC members or watch these viewings, which I’ll do for a while today.

    Plus longer ones discourage lazier secretaries from ever getting them done. (A problem we had in past which we always could have again, should some lazy or too busy but popular person gets elected secretary.)

    IF people think discussion is SO important, they should take notes and do their own views and publish them here or elsewhere.

  12. Joseph Buchman

    I have heard several folks say over the past few years, that IPR is the superior source to “find out what actually happened at an LNC meeting.”

  13. Starchild

    Wes Benedict now giving report as Executive Director. Lauren Daugherty (head of development) and Robert Kraus (operations director) also present.

    I have repeatedly during this LNC term objected to the practice of flying multiple staffers to our meetings and putting them up at hotels – it’s a major unnecessary cost, when we could hear from them by phone if needed, as we often do with counsel, our FEC consultant, etc.

  14. paulie Post author

    Benedict: Already over 800 candidates, growing by 30 or 40 a week, not sure if will reach 2000. Membership has stopped falling and is now growing. Convention revenue best ever, even better than presidential years.

  15. Caryn Ann Harlos

    I am very pleased that the edits failed. I do have a proposal for future minutes if I am elected that would satisfy all sides I think in preserving this information – it was an idea suggested by Daniel Hayes of having an appendix of background for historical purposes.

    I take this vote as an affirmation of my judgment in preparing those past minutes.

  16. paulie Post author

    Struggling to find petitioners in OH and TN. LP petition rates are not competitive with petition pay rates around the country and winter has slowed things down. Starchild suggests hiring students.

  17. paulie Post author

    Andy Burns working on CiviCRM (see reports). Wes believes all 50 states and DC have functional affiliates to some degree.

  18. Starchild

    Wes says we still need paid petitioners in Ohio and Nebraska, and people should not feel hesitant to take the party’s money for this; if we don’t hire people at $2.50 a signature, we may have to pay $5.00 a signature, for instance.

    I concurred, but noted we should always ask for volunteers first before paying. Wes agreed, says staff have other things to do that petitioning takes them away from.

    I strongly agreed, and suggested that also for events like Freedom Fest, volunteers for outreach should be sought before sending paid staff to these events.

    Wes noted that it was the plan to again send the chair and staff to Freedom Fest (which is after July 4 in Las Vegas) and that the LNC would have to vote to change this if desired. He think staff will uniquely be able to raise more money than other LP outreach volunteers; I said not necessarily; perhaps if speaking opportunities, but anyone can staff a table and take donations. (Perhaps one staffer or LNC member like the chair present to take custody of funds raised.)

    There is an opportunity cost to sending staff and taking them away from other duties, plus their costs of transportation and lodging which is generally not a cost with volunteers who come at their own expense. Again this is a waste of the party’s money unless we’re really getting that much added advantage out of it over what volunteers could do, which I strongly doubt.

  19. Starchild

    Wes mentioned new hire of Tyler (last name?) as an intern to help in the office. He’s from Prince Williams County (Maryland).

  20. paulie Post author

    Looking to restart internships. Not much interest in “minimum wage” but may be more as summer gets closer.

  21. Starchild

    Wes and Lauren talking about having people making renewal phone calls. Interested in finding a full-time membership coordinator, but don’t have a person in mind right now.

  22. paulie Post author

    Wes says we still need paid petitioners in Ohio and Nebraska,

    TN, not NE. NE needs volunteer people to do door to door and phonebanking work for Laura Ebke, which is not paid work.

  23. paulie Post author

    There is an opportunity cost to sending staff and taking them away from other duties, plus their costs of transportation and lodging which is generally not a cost with volunteers who come at their own expense. Again this is a waste of the party’s money unless we’re really getting that much added advantage out of it over what volunteers could do, which I strongly doubt.

    In the case of Freedom Fest specifically, there are a lot of wealthy donors there who want to meet directly with the chair and executive director. It’s not like setting out a donation jar on the table.

  24. Starchild

    Matt Fexton (current services manager) is supervising interns. There have been times in the past where we didn’t have tasks available that were appropriate.

  25. paulie Post author

    Lauren Daugherty giving fundraising update. Sound cutting in and out again but I heard her say what I read on the list, that fundraising is up in 2017 and 18 and first quarter was best since 2004. Building better relationships with donors and raising member confidence. Better looking and timely materials.

  26. Starchild

    Mat Fexton(?) processes mail, sends out thank-you notes to members, etc., according to Lauren. Jess Mears has done some research on “the competition” (passed around sample notes from the Democratic National Committee), said ours are more polished.

  27. Starchild

    Nick – Thanks for the correction the spelling of Matt Thexton’s name!

    Paulie writes, In the case of Freedom Fest specifically, there are a lot of wealthy donors there who want to meet directly with the chair and executive director. It’s not like setting out a donation jar on the table.

    Participating in some meetings is one thing; working an outreach table all weekend is another. Could be difference between one night’s lodging and several at party’s expense.

  28. paulie Post author

    Participating in some meetings is one thing; working an outreach table all weekend is another. Could be difference between one night’s lodging and several at party’s expense.

    It’s multiple meetings, some impromptu, throughout the event. From what I understand the revenue generated is several times the party cost.

  29. Starchild

    Hall is talking about ballot access requirements in Arizona, where LP has right to have candidates on general election ballot, but in practice can’t get them there because the Republicans who control the legislature came up with a statutory scheme making it practically impossible because candidates can’t get on the primary ballots. We lost a case on this, now opportunity to appeal.

  30. Starchild

    He is speaking at length to us by phone. Which is how I think we should hear from other staff at these meetings, rather than spending thousands of dollars to have them here in person.

  31. Joseph Buchman

    Starchild – there is value in having them listen to the entire LNC meeting and in being available for informal Q&A outside of formal meeting time. And, listening in on the phone for two full days isn’t as good for learning as being here. I’m not declaring that fully justifies the costs involved, but it does (at least) close the gap a bit.

  32. paulie Post author

    Julie Fox – audit committee report. Audit will start this coming Monday. Still the same auditor as in recent years. Affiliate Support Committee is next, Daniel Hayes.

  33. Starchild

    Daniel Hayes now giving Affiliate Support Committee report. Says one of biggest issues affiliates have is managing data. Touts CRM effort Andy Burns is working on in regards to this; creating a “user dashboard”; hosting company working on with this, crowdsourcing (save us money).

  34. Starchild

    Gives estimated cost of implementing “user dashboard” as $40,000 to $60,000. Hayes says this would significantly benefit our members and candidates. Says this would be very intuitive – “ten minutes or less and a person is trained”. Get our data into one spot that can be given to affiliates in a usable manner.

  35. Andy

    I agree with Starchild about the public comments and about unnecessarily paying to bring multiple LNC staffers to LNC meeting when you could just as easily communicate with them via Skype or telephone.

  36. Starchild

    Andy Burns now on speaker phone to talk about Daniel Hayes proposal as Affilliate Support Committee chair to spend $50k on CRM program.

  37. Starchild

    Bill Redpath asks what’s involved in “onboarding a state” into the program. Andy says wants to train one person per state as an admin, have them train state and county leaders. A “permission tree”, with volunteers having low barriers of entry to get involved.

  38. Andy

    I agree with Starchild at 12:22 PM. Staffers could Skype into meeting. Considering that the LP has scarce resources, I think there would more productive use of funds than bringing staffers to meetings when those staffers could just as easily watch a livestream of the meeting and communicate with LNC members via Skype or telephone or Google Hangout.

  39. paulie Post author

    there is value in having them listen to the entire LNC meeting and in being available for informal Q&A outside of formal meeting time. And, listening in on the phone for two full days isn’t as good for learning as being here.

    Agreed.

  40. paulie Post author

    Hayes moves to withdraw motion for funding CRM project and moving to email or later vote. Redpath wants 5 more minutes for discussion. Sarwark suggests informal discussion over lunch, which starts now.

  41. paulie Post author

    Voting on awards committee additional members moved to tomorrow morning to give members more time to review applications, vitae, etc.

  42. Starchild

    There is now debate on whether to include running for local office for eligibility for the Patrick Henry award (right now it lists only running for state or federal office). Daniel Hayes and Tim Hagan suggest an amendment to have a new, separate award for local office. I prefer Alicia Mattson’s original motion to simply drop the language limiting the award to state or federal level candidates.

  43. Starchild

    Matter postponed until tomorrow morning. Consideration of applicants to serve on the Awards Committee was also postponed until tomorrow morning. Applicants are:

    Darryl Perry
    Jennifer “Hap” Werther
    Howard Wetzmann
    Keith Laube
    Michelle McCutcheon

    (apologies for any spelling errors)

  44. Starchild

    Daniel Hayes is talking about the status of the national convention. Amazingly, many more packages have been sold than were sold at this time for the 2016 presidential convention.

  45. Starchild

    Lots of rooms have been rented for special events, including by the LP Radical Caucus, LP Pragmatic Caucus, Outright Libertarians, National Organization of Libertarian Women, etc. (Daniel Hayes says these are listed online.)

  46. Andy

    There should most definitely be an award available to Libertarians running for local offices. These are the offices that Libertarians generally stand the best chance of winning. How about give an award to the first Libertarian to get elected as a county Sheriff, who implements the Deptize ‘Em plan, that is appointing Libertarians as Deputies? I know that a the LP elected a Sheriff in Colorado years ago, but I do not think they implemented the Deptize ‘Em plan, nor am I aware of them doing anything radical.

  47. Starchild

    Daniel lists some sales numbers. E.g. in 2010, we’d sold $110,000 in packages, currently we’re at about $189,000 in package sales.

  48. paulie Post author

    2018 convention has raised over 189k, for comparison 2010 including banquet 172k, 2014 was 137k. 10 weeks to go. May exceed 2016.

  49. Starchild

    There are sponsorship opportunities for the convention – interested groups or individuals should contact Lauren Daugherty. For example, having materials in the delegate manual.

  50. paulie Post author

    Starchild questions Hayes on whether transparency of convention committee can be improved. Hayes says the convention committee needs privacy to talk freely.

  51. Starchild

    Sam Goldstein (of Convention Oversight Committee) says the National Org. of Libertarian Women will be holding a free “day camp” for kids (not infants, but roughly ages 5-13?), with the committee sponsoring free meals for the kids.

  52. Starchild

    There is still booth space available, at $300 (inside a room) or $600 (outside in a more visible hallway?). There will be around 45-50 total booths.

  53. Starchild

    Regarding transparency, I mentioned need for accurate, detailed record-keeping of how decisions are made, so that if there isn’t transparency contemporaneously with decisions being made, people will at least be able to see after the fact exactly how decisions were made. This question wasn’t fully addressed; Sam Goldstein said the committee has mostly acted “by consensus”.

    Personally I think the Convention Oversight Committee should operate transparently at the time of its actions. Secrecy has more downsides than benefits.

  54. Andy

    How about trying to get some cryptocurrency masternodes on board for sponsoring the LP National Convention, like Adam Kokesh just did to help fund his New Orleans Book Bomb, where he is sending every residence in New Orleans a copy of his book, Freedom, and where is implementing my suggestion to him to include a World’s Smallest Political Quiz and information about Jury Nullification added to each book?

  55. paulie Post author

    Starchild proposes several changes to the committee recommendations posted in the article above and/or on LNC list. Goldstein proposes substitute keeping the original language but striking the last item #11. Goldstein substitute carries.

  56. paulie Post author

    Redpath proposes striking requirement for non-partisan candidates to mention LP or libertarianism in their campaign materials.

  57. Starchild

    I proposed adding this requirement:

    1) The candidate supports the Non-Aggression Principle and scores at least 80/80 on the Nolan Chart

    Plus striking the word “professional” from requiring candidates to have a “professional quality website” and “professional quality photos”; adding “government employment” to what a candidate must explain in order to qualify for LNC funding (along with “any association with controversial social or political advocacy groups especially violence advocacy”)

  58. paulie Post author

    This Kokesh?

    Ethan Owens is with Angela Fisher Owens.
    April 13 at 2:24pm

    We have decided as a family to go ahead and get a restraining order against Adam Kokesh. This image is the MOST RECENT example of harassment to our family, only this time he has shifted his attention to our nine year old son, Liam.

    As you can see, Adam is well aware that our son has rather significant health issues to worry about. He shouldn’t have to also have to worry about his parents “going to jail”.

    This is going to cause a problem in Nebraska, Ohio, and NOLA as Adam and Liam are scheduled to be in the same venue at times.

    If anyone wishes to un-invite us due to these complications, we will understand and respect such a decision wholly.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155025665401706&set=gm.2047625482219587&type=3&theater&ifg=1

  59. paulie Post author

    Lauren Daugherty points out that some people don’t sign pledges or oaths for religious reasons. Starchild, Arvin and Caryn Ann say we need ideological elements in the candidate criteria.

  60. Starchild

    And you have to sign a pledge to be an LP member – and being an LP member is one of the other proposed requirements for candidate funding eligibility, which is NOT being objected to. Therefore this concern about pledges is inconsistent.

  61. Mikester

    The LNC just voted to exercise financial leverage over candidates to meet respectability norms but make adherence libertarian political norms options. Shameful!!

  62. Mikester

    Goldstein, speaking against transparency doesn’t know what “secrecy” means. Should people be in positions of power that don’t know what it means to keep a secret?

  63. Andy

    Yes, that Adam Kokesh. I think his word is good, but regardless of this, he should at least be given the benefit of the doubt until more evidence can be brought forth to merit “convicting” him of something.

    What does this have to do with Adam’s New Orleans Book Bomb, or the idea I put forth for the a LP to seek sponsorships with cryptocurrency masternodes, like Adam did to help fund his Book Bomb?

  64. paulie Post author

    What does this have to do with Adam’s New Orleans Book Bomb, or the idea I put forth for the a LP to seek sponsorships with cryptocurrency masternodes, like Adam did to help fund his Book Bomb?

    About as much as has to do with him suing the Arizona LP or him having multiple nasty partings of ways with different former campaign staffers, exes, etc.

  65. paulie Post author

    I think the meeting is on break. I did not catch how long for. I also spaced out a bit before the break as there was another vote.

  66. Mikester

    Caryn Ann Harlos should be ashamed, all of her pandering to moderates and prags by sidelining audacious personalities has come to …. Being just as sidelined and marginalized as ever. Appeasing these people is a counterproductive waste of time and it is accelerating in the wrong direction!!

  67. paulie Post author

    Just as a reminder. I think this will have to be posted in every thread from now on.

    Paleoconservative/nationalist =/= libertarian.

    Authoritarian patriarchy =/= libertarian.

    Alt reich =/= libertarian.

  68. Caryn Ann Harlos

    I abstained on the last one because the language was clunky – we need a better transparency solution.

  69. paulie Post author

    No questions for EPCC. IT Committee is next, which has no one there to answer any questions on report.

  70. paulie Post author

    Missed one – Platform Committee? Now Bylaws Committee. These seem to all be going very fast.

    Platform Committee to meet for first in-person meeting in Ohio May 13/14 using facilities provided by the Libertarian Party of Ohio. Not much else was reported that I remember — Joe

  71. Starchild

    Mikester – Would you please call me when you get a chance? (Not today or tomorrow during the meeting, but any other time.) I’ve left multiple messages trying to reach you. Thanks!

  72. Starchild

    Now on Ballot Access Committee, Bill Redpath presenting as chair. Bill thanks fellow committee members Ed Marsh and Paul Frankel.

  73. paulie Post author

    Bill thanks fellow committee members Ed Marsh and Paul Frankel.

    I’m not technically a member, at least not a voting member.

  74. Starchild

    Previous discussion about Alicia Mattson informally preparing delegation chairs manual – there is no oversight or review for this, but she assures us nothing controversial in it. Caryn Ann Harlos mentions that the language about region formations may be leading, someone may object; we usually have some kind of review for party publications.

  75. paulie Post author

    Asking 35k for NY. Need 15k valid. Waiting on court decision on out of state petitioners. Only 3 states left with this rule which was once common and has been struck down in many states.

  76. Andy

    Lots of people have had nasty parting of ways with people, and lots of people have had accusations made against them, some of which were false. Paul of all people should know this, since he has been on the receiving end on more than one occasion.

    As for Adam filing a lawsuit against the LP of AZ, I do not know if he is following through with this or not, but regardless of this, It has nothing to do with the merits or demerits of the case in question, nor should any person or group be above getting sued if they deserve it.

  77. paulie Post author

    Julie Fox, updated report on IL – best organized drive she remembers in 25 years. As of Tuesday night 3390 signatures from paid petitioners with 80% validity – 1750 estimated more. Volunteers 950 as of Tuesday night, 2100 more estimated. Worst April in memory. 4 petitioners on the ground including one just added in Southern Illinois. Anticipating increased production in May. Raised 16k so far on LPIL side with $2.4k more pledged. More candidates running this year than in the past.

  78. Caryn Ann Harlos

    These manuals need to be approved by other than just the Secretary – future Secretaries may not be as competent as Alicia – it is too much to place on one person. I do think the regional formation agreement is undue influence.

  79. paulie Post author

    TN doing well on volunteer sigs. However need 5% in a statewide race – Pres, Gov or Sen. Petition has 13k signatures plus, needs 33k+ valid by Aug 8. TN LP was told by someone in TN SOS office orally that the petition would qualify LP for 2020 and 2022 as well as 2018, but dubious this is what the law says and it is not in writing. Over 15k spent by LNC including 7500 to contractor who has not performed. TN drive suspended from LNC until the 2020/2022 claim is verified. TNLP is not running candidates for Gov or Sen this year. Would need special convention to nominate candidates for these offices at all.

  80. paulie Post author

    For some reason a contractor got an advance in TN, (Redpath says SMI) although Wes Benedict has told me before no advances, no exceptions. They are still contracted with LNC in Ohio. They have produced no signatures in TN.

  81. paulie Post author

    Ohio – Redpath thanks Ken Moellman for managing the project. No update beyond what is in the report. Estimating 54,075 valid now of 54,965 required (need 60 or 65k estimated valid to cover signatures “aging out” and duplicates). Signatures slowed down due to weather and better paying work elsewhere. Expecting petitioners to come down from MI to OH to work on initiatives in late May and can piggyback LP. Primary on May 8 good opportunity for both paid and volunteer sigs.

  82. paulie Post author

    Benedict and Redpath organizing a group of volunteers from DC area to petition in Ohio on May 8. Working on getting Ohio and nearby state LP members to petition in Ohio on May 8.

  83. paulie Post author

    Moving to executive session for rest of ballot access report, or 3 other items on agenda and then exec session to go back to ballot access.

  84. paulie Post author

    Going with the latter. Historical preservation committee is next. Not much to add to written report (see article). Volunteer from Italy spending two months, Chastain a week.

  85. Mikester

    As I sit here astonished by how truly unrepresented and disenfranchised these meetings make me feel, it strikes me this is why the majority of the public doesn’t vote, and evidence that the power hungry leadership of the LP has no interests in competing for ordinary people’s votes by offering them representation. They show us again and again that they are out to chase political power for conformists at the expense of the people at the margins.

    It makes me sad to work so hard at a shift in culture only to be smacked down, again and again but I see over time how inherent it is to representative democracy. I’m glad the archival committee is preserving our history so when an actually effective vehicle for setting humanity free rises in the future they can study the LPs mistakes as we veered off course.

  86. Starchild

    We’re now discussing Arvin Vohra’s motion (on behalf of Mike Heiss) to create a Blockchain Committee. Arvin asks to hear from Mike in the gallery, who defers to Preston Smith; Mike also recommends Preston as a potential committee chair.

  87. Mikester

    Like … I’m a life member of a party that wishes I didn’t exist. I feel so stupid for ever believing in it, and when you tell them this is the effect of their policies, or (the horror!) organize toward representation they respond actually by circling the wagons and sidelining you further. What an awful and demoralizing state of affairs.

  88. Andy

    Starchild, is that Michael Heise, founder of the LP Mises Caucus, about whom you are speaking that wants to start a blockchain committee (which sounds like a good idea to me)?

  89. Starchild

    I got a chance to speak briefly with Mike during lunch. He said (and seemed credible to me) that his founding of the Mises Caucus has nothing to do with the dispute involving Nick Sarwark, Tom Woods, et. al., and it is not about trying to encourage nationalism or the alt-right.

  90. Andy

    It would be more accurate to call it the Mises Caucus, because that is what it was called. If it was going to be named after somebody else, I would say that calling it the Ron Paul Caucus would be a better description, since Heise was most inspired by Ron Paul. Not that there is anything wrong with Hans-Hermann Hoppe, but when I talked to Heise he talked about Ron Paul more than any other figure.

  91. Mikester

    It’s systemic on every level from general membership telling me to kill myself, to officers like CAH saying people like me are “incompatible” with the libertarian vision and now a vote by the body using shared resources to send market signals that reward conformity with the respectability signals of the political class while not rewarding people who speak a clear libertarian message. So they will take our money and give it to people like Laura Ebke to work against my interests but they would not give the same money to someone like me to stand up for my own. That is a deeply, deeply flawed state of affairs and completely unworthy of a “libertarian” party.

  92. Starchild

    I wrote (April 21, 2018 at 16:49), Mikester – Would you please call me when you get a chance? (Not today or tomorrow during the meeting, but any other time.) I’ve left multiple messages trying to reach you. Thanks!

    And Mikester writes, “…when you tell them this is the effect of their policies, or (the horror!) organize toward representation they respond actually by circling the wagons and sidelining you further. What an awful and demoralizing state of affairs.”

    This sounds like something else we should talk about!

  93. paulie Post author

    I got a chance to speak briefly with Mike during lunch. He said (and seemed credible to me) that his founding of the Mises Caucus has nothing to do with the dispute involving Nick Sarwark, Tom Woods, et. al., and it is not about trying to encourage nationalism or the alt-right.

    Yes, that’s been their propaganda line but I keep seeing more and more evidence to the contrary. They are serving as the alt reich to libertarianism pipeline and networking with nationalists and racialists all over the place, helping them get signed up as LP delegates, helping them mainstream themselves and their views, etc.

  94. Mikester

    Starchild, he’s lying to you. Their content is filled with dog whistles and is basically paleolibertarianism rebranded. They deny it because they know it’s unpopular but people who’ve been around long enough to spot the warning signals have been trying to sound the alarm. Unfortunately in their haste to sideline audacious voices, many whom we should have been able to rely on have dismissed our warnings out of hand.

  95. Mikester

    Starchild, I have a deep and admittedly irrational avoidance issue with telephone calls. It is very rare that I answer my phone and even more rare that I dial it myself. Please don’t take it personal that I haven’t caught back up with you …… I wish there was at least one social network we could both agree on. Have you thought of joining the LPAC discord server? I think it would really lift many of our spirits who are feeling dispirited lately. I can send you another invitation to your email if you like.

  96. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    There’s some good ideas about block chain technology by libertarian types on https://www.facebook.com/groups/radicaldecentralization/

    Much of it is way above my head, or will be til I sit down and study it all.

    While applied to Cryptocurrency, it’s only as good as motivations of owners of the currency: facilitating trade or driving up prices tulip-mania style for personal profit.

    It could be VERY useful for reputational purposes. Who know, might even control MY bad temper. ha ha ha

    And I guess quality control wise it’s helpful so you know WHERE that food came from and whose moldy warehouse it was stored in. ETC ETC.

  97. paulie Post author

    from general membership telling me to kill myself,

    Well, I’m not. I’m sure a lot of other people aren’t telling you that either.

  98. Andy

    Starchild, I talked to Heise, as documented in my interview with him that is posted right here at IPR, and he told me that he started the caucus because he wants to recapture the spirit of the Ron Paul r3VOLution of 2007-2012 in the Libertarian Party. Heise also said that the idea of the LP running a candidate like Bill Weld for President in 2020 disturbs him, especially if that candidate were to get in the big debates with the Democrat and Republican candidates, and he wants to make sure the LP nominates a presidential ticket that is more principled than the last three LP presidential tickets have been.

  99. paulie Post author

    recapture the spirit of the Ron Paul r3VOLution

    More like recapture the spirit of the Ron Paul Newsletters if he were to be more honest.

  100. Mikester

    Look when one of your prominent voices is out as a person living with a bipolar condition, who is routinely targeted with calls to kill themselves, and leadership doesn’t even bother to lift up awareness of ableism and what amounts to workplace discrimination that can actually bring a human life to an end, that is a systemic problem. I’m not too worried for my own safety because I have extremely thick skin but that’s the nature of neurodiversity, I don’t get to decide how my brain turns on itself sometimes. I stand for anyone who might be in a similar boat without such strong defenses but frankly what I’m seeing before me today is a complete failure to even make a halfhearted attempt. Unfortunately our leadership feels it is more important to sideline audacious voices and center conformity with the interests of the political class than actually stand up for the right of nonconforming identities of all types to speak and exist in libertarian spaces. So there you have it.

  101. Mikester

    (this narrative was not intended to get hyperfocused on neurodivserity it just went there because I used the example of people telling me to kill myself. the probably is far broader and it has to do with paleolibertarianism which has many problematic dimensions that our leadership seems completely ill equipped to rectify)

  102. Mikester

    Starchild, are you receiving my emails? As far as I know the only thread I slacked off was the one about Crossover where I hoped others would reply first. But I did eventually reply.

  103. Starchild

    Yes Mikester, I would like to know what’s going on with Crossover – that’s one of the topics I wanted to talk with you about.

  104. Gina

    Is Aaron Starr there? He usually speaks a lot during these meetings and I haven’t heard him today, at all unless I missed it. Of course Mrs. Starr, Alicia Mattson, is the Secretary so she is there.

  105. Mikester

    Crossover is a binational (US/Canada) political talk show featuring queer voices from each of the major politicla parties in both nations, I’ve been cast as the Libertarian anchor which sounds more exciting than it may potentially end up being …. You see it’s a startup project that may, or may not, end up on TV depending how our proof-of-concept episode is received. We’re in talks with a few networks now so keep your fingers crossed!! It would be really great for somebody outside of the political class to gain media representation for another side of libertarianisn, even though officers like Caryn Ann Harlos believe libertarians like me are incompatible with the party’s vision and the organizational structure seems bent on making it as unlikely as possible that something like that could ever happen.

  106. Mikester

    One suspects that if a more orthodox voice were cast in this role the leadership would be falling all over itself to take credit for and glorify the whole thing but since it’s me ……… Well ……… You know, what do they do except ignore and sideline what actually should be a major source of excitement. Imagine, a network anchor role for a Libertarian!! No …. *crickets* …. Because we have a systemic problem with regards to rewarding conformity, while sidelining individuality of any other type.

  107. Mikester

    Basically, a left libertarian that centers #Liberty4ALL instead of social darwinian propertarianism.

  108. Gina

    “Basically, a left libertarian that centers #Liberty4ALL instead of social darwinian propertarianism.”

    That sounds like me. And as a left handed, atheist, anarchist lesbian I’m pretty well non-conformist as well. Do they want me to kill myself too? If so too bad, they can kiss my ass.

  109. Mikester

    You sound awesome!! Please know, if no one else has told you that you are welcome and valued in this party, *I* welcome and value you, and we are not alone. There is a real resurgence of a spirit of defiance and nonconformity lately, though it’s not reflected in the organizational structure yet. We’ve come a long way in the years I’ve been here. Side note, I’m sure people will say I’m playing the victim with this series of posts, but their deflection won’t work. I couldn’t care less whether the present gaggle of authoritarians validate my existence. No, I bring these ideas to the surface because we cannot move past the legacy of paleolibertarianism without looking directly at what’s really going on and talking about the transformation that needs to take place. This is what empowerment and refusing to be sidelined looks like!! Thanks for the video link btw, totally rocking that out right now. <3 #povertarianpower

  110. Not anybody special

    *Candidate Support Committee*

    But no action on filling the committee vacancy that has been available for quite a while?

  111. Gina

    Keep on keeping on and don’t let the haters get to you. I tell myself that every day too.

  112. paulie Post author

    But no action on filling the committee vacancy that has been available for quite a while?

    I think a number of different committee vacancies are on the agenda for tomorrow. Which one are you referring to?

  113. Matt Cholko

    “Unfortunately our leadership feels it is more important to sideline audacious voices and center conformity with the interests of the political class than actually stand up for the right of nonconforming identities of all types to speak and exist in libertarian spaces.”

    “It would be really great for somebody outside of the political class to gain media representation for another side of libertarianisn…”

    Me: Yup

  114. Not anybody special

    “I think a number of different committee vacancies are on the agenda for tomorrow. Which one are you referring to?”

    Sorry, I should’ve clarified further. The vacancy on the Candidate Support Committee that’s been wide open for the past several months.

  115. George Phillies

    Aaron Starr is busy running for Mayor of Oxnard, in a recall election to be held in a few weeks.
    The referendum that he organized, that led tot he recall, passed with close to 80% support, so there is some evidence that unlike most Libertarian candidates he has a decent support base.

  116. Daniel Wiener

    Gina
    April 21, 2018 at 18:21
    Is Aaron Starr there? He usually speaks a lot during these meetings and I haven’t heard him today, at all unless I missed it. Of course Mrs. Starr, Alicia Mattson, is the Secretary so she is there.

    Gina, although it’s possible, I would be very surprised if Aaron Starr was at this meeting. He is running for Mayor of Oxnard, CA in a special election ten days from now, on May 1st. Aaron has organized a recall election of the current Mayor and three other City Councilmembers. If the recall measures are successful, there are simultaneous elections to fill the vacancies, hopefully by Aaron and his team. For more details see StarrForOxnard.com and Facebook.com/OxnardRecall.

  117. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Funny stuff in this thread. Or maybe cause I read through while watching Sat Nite Live re-runs.

    Or cause I found this article about the defeat of the top down faction from 2012. http://reason.com/blog/2012/05/06/oh-hey-starchild “With the defeat of what he calls the “top-down faction” (Alicia Mattson, Aaron Starr, Wayne Allyn Root, Bill Redpath, Mark Rutherford, and others) though, he found hope for the future of the party. ” But then we thought we were rid of the neocons, and now they’re controlling Trump. Sigh.

    It’s always good to read and reread from time to time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy – which a Mises.org article reminded me about. And of course let’s not forget the word https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparatchik

    Anyway, I took a couple classes in organizational psychology in college (almost 50 years ago!) and still enjoy watching it in action in voluntary “representative democracies”… watching the grass roots rebel against the elites and elites claw their way back to power – or the rebels become elites.

    The good news is, at least the LNC doesn’t have the power of the state. So its foibles aren’t fatal. (It’s up to Mikester and Vohra to decide when and if to call the cops on joke or real death threats, not the LNC.)

    And the soap opera continues…

  118. paulie Post author

    Sorry, I should’ve clarified further. The vacancy on the Candidate Support Committee that’s been wide open for the past several months.

    Probably on tomorrow’s agenda unless it’s one the committee is supposed to fill itself according to its charter.

  119. paulie Post author

    Gina, although it’s possible, I would be very surprised if Aaron Starr was at this meeting. He is running for Mayor of Oxnard, CA in a special election ten days from now, on May 1st. Aaron has organized a recall election of the current Mayor and three other City Councilmembers. If the recall measures are successful, there are simultaneous elections to fill the vacancies, hopefully by Aaron and his team. For more details see StarrForOxnard.com and Facebook.com/OxnardRecall.

    Good luck in the election!

  120. paulie Post author

    No other public comments. Balloting for a committee but I missed which one. Starchild moves to delay til later in agenda but it does not pass. Awards committee. Happy birthday to Daniel Hayes.

  121. paulie Post author

    (Mattson?) motion to amend Patrick Henry Award to include local candidates

    Hayes motion to amend, to make it two separate awards (one local one state and federal)

    Hagan motion to amend the amendment, to call the one for local candidates called the Benjamin Franklin award

  122. paulie Post author

    Starchild moves to extend, no objection.

    Starchild moves to change around the names of the Franklin and Patrick awards. Franklin was more involved in international affairs. Bilyeu seconds. Redpath says it will create confusion.

  123. paulie Post author

    Vohra nominates

    Preston Smith
    Justin O’Donnell
    Michael Heisse
    Arvin Vohra
    David Demarest
    Alex Merced
    Trent Larson
    Elizabeth Van Horn

  124. paulie Post author

    Bilyeu nominates 2. Forgot the names already but I think Matt Wittington and Joseph Duncan

    Demarest nominates Stephen Drake and Zachary Taylor

    Hayes nominates Howard Weitzman

    Van Horn nominates James Weeks and one other

    Starchild nominates Jeff Wood?

    I think there were a few more I missed

  125. paulie Post author

    Starchild moves to amend his own amendment to create new email list. Dies for lack of a second. Vote on main Starchild motion to postpone indefinitely.

  126. Caryn Ann Harlos

    Mike you misrepresent once again what I said. I did not say *you* were incompatible. It is well known that I think you are a fantastic worker and human being. I did say that anti-propertarianism as an idea is incompatible, but that no one is required to 100% toe the Party line. (I would say the same thing about several of my own views by the way).

    I could wish you would stop misrepresenting me but it seems it is a favourite pastime of yours. It is odd considering the causes you and I both advocate have actual enemies that you choose to focus on people who are supporters in 80%. I guess the disagreements are not allowed- funny that.

    Carry on. I am sure this will prompt paragraphs of invective. I do not reciprocate. I have nothing but respect for you.

  127. paulie Post author

    Jungle non-partisan primary in unicameral. Governor opposed, well funded opposition. Ebke campaign also has money but needs more campaign volunteers. Meets new candidate support criteria. Seeking re-election. Apolo Pazell is working with her campaign. Money is not being taken away from anything else in the budget.

  128. Caryn Ann Harlos

    re neurodiversity: I find there is quite a bit of acceptance for this in the party. I am an “out” voice for those with severe depression and OCD.

    The “kill yourself” crowd is typical internet trolls that need to be shunned by the community. But then again we are terrible as a community at policing bad actors.

  129. paulie Post author

    Hagan amendment to amend the budget for this expenditure defeated (10-4?). Redpath against, says there is plenty of authority already in the budget. Now arguing on the main motion.

  130. paulie Post author

    Blockchain committee:

    O’Donnell, Wetsman, Smith, Demarest, Van Horn, …that’s as far as I was able to keep up.

  131. Starchild

    We just voted to allocate up to $15,000 in support of Nebraska state senator Laura Ebke. Interestingly, Arvin Vohra demonstrated by references to her website that she clearly did not meet the ill-advised candidate support criteria we just passed yesterday – yet the motion passed overwhelmingly, in violation of this policy, with 1 no (Vohra) and 3 abstentions (myself, Caryn Ann Harlos, and 1 other I did not catch.

  132. Caryn Ann Harlos

    I abstained as debate was not extended and I had some concerns as Vohra had a good point that there seemed to be a conflict with the guidelines we passed yesterday. I was unclear on the interpretation of the guidelines. I personally support giving the funds, but I am NOT in support of making guidelines and then immediately disregarding them. We either keep them or throw them out not willy nilly disregard them based on a popularity contest.

  133. Starchild

    I think Alex Merced was the other individual appointed to the new Blockchain Committee.

    I supported creation of this committee, but opposed populating it today because we did not put out notice to the membership seeking applications and giving people a chance to volunteer to serve.

  134. Steve Scheetz

    I am fairly certain I would have been a no (if not an abstention) vote on this motion due to aspects of her message being non-Libertarian. Darryl brought up her suggesting that some rights are granted by the Constitution, which is not what we believe.

    We want to court people with open arms, but if they are running for office, or are IN office, they need to be showcasing our ideology, our principles, and sadly, she is not doing that. (and maybe she would if she had a conversation with us, but that is not where we are at this moment in history.

    Sincerely,

    Steve Scheetz

  135. paulie Post author

    Harlos amendment to put back in mention of donors names in LP news dies for lack of second. Wes Benedict says HQ will continue to thank and recognize donors, just does not need micromanagement from LNC.

  136. Starchild

    Paulie – I did NOT nominate Jeff Wood, and did not vote for him, based on concern over some posts he allegedly made about inviting “domestic terrorists and violent drug cartels” to join the LP. Like a post the vice-chair withdrew about school board shootings, I felt this rhetoric was over the line in relation to upholding the Non-Aggression Principle.

  137. paulie Post author

    Lark nominates to reappoint Katz to LNC (missing second consecutive meeting due to law school commitments). What happened with main Bilyeu motion on membership levels? I missed that.

  138. Starchild

    I don’t recall who nominated Jeff Woods, but I don’t believe his name was among those Arvin Vohra first announced; I think another member put his name in.

  139. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Who is contact for block chain committee? I’ll send it to people on a couple Facegod groups that really KNOW something about the topic, how it’s applied and best technologies for doing it! Also will send to Heise and Arvin.

  140. Steve Scheetz

    Starchild amendment to expand responsibility of that authority to the entirety of the LNC

    opposition of this centers upon a lack of flexibility if given to the larger body due to the time it takes for a decision.

  141. Starchild

    My motion to require LNC approval, rather than Executive Committee approval, to authorize filing or joining a lawsuit, failed 8-7, with 2 abstentions.

  142. Starchild

    Alicia Mattson’s original motion, to increase the threshold of Executive Committee approval required for lawsuits, from a majority to 2/3rds, passed 9-4 (I think 2 abstentions).

  143. Starchild

    Motion to increase budget line for personnel from $495,000 to $535,000, to anticipate hiring a full-time staffer for special projects (David Demarest) passed with about 10 yes votes, 3 abstentions (myself, Nick Sarwark, Alicia Mattson).

    I’m not sure it makes sense to add another staffer, budget-wise; I’m also not certain enough effort is being made to use volunteers and interns.

  144. Starchild

    To clarify, David Demarest made the motion to increase the budget (he isn’t the person anticipated to be hired). I don’t believe any individual was mentioned as being under consideration.

    Apparently there may be a new job opening for a $40,000/year full-time position at LP national. Wes Benedict (executive director) said he was hoping to find someone able to work in the office (as opposed to remotely).

  145. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Caryn Ann Harlos April 22, 2018 at 10:46 wrote: ” I did say that anti-propertarianism as an idea is incompatible, but that no one is required to 100% toe the Party line. (I would say the same thing about several of my own views by the way).”

    Anti-propertarianism IS compatible as long as it is a voluntary choice and not forced on others.

    Of course, insulting propertarians because they don’t share that ideology would not be very libertarian. (Some alleged libertarian is insulting me as a bigot right now because I’m upholding plank 3.5 Rights and Discrimination on private organizations retain their rights to set whatever standards of association they deem appropriate…”

    Criticizing and making fun of anti-propertarians and other statists who DO want to use the state IS legitimate, i.e., those who want to state action or who work to eliminate platform planks that oppose state action. Unfortunately, there have been SO many of the latter, the platform is now is so lacking in detail all sorts of statist nonsense can be asserted within it.

  146. paulie Post author

    Harlos reaching out to “orphan” states without a region in western states, asks if anyone is doing that for Eastern states.

  147. Caryn Ann Harlos

    ==Anti-propertarianism IS compatible as long as it is a voluntary choice and not forced on others.===

    That is not the context I said that in. Anything voluntary is not incompatible. But since the NAP is a floating abstraction without a theory of property rights – both A and Not A are mutually exclusive.

    If people want to voluntarily give up any number of rights, that is their business.

  148. Chuck Moulton

    Paulie wrote:
    About as much as has to do with him suing the Arizona LP or him having multiple nasty partings of ways with different former campaign staffers, exes, etc.

    I had not heard about this. Details on the Arizona LP lawsuit?

  149. Chuck Moulton

    Starchild wrote:

    I supported creation of this committee, but opposed populating it today because we did not put out notice to the membership seeking applications and giving people a chance to volunteer to serve.

    Yes, populating the committee immediately is ridiculous. I’m sure we have a lot of blockchain expertise in the party that was completely untapped. For example, my Ph.D. dissertation is on monetary applications of the blockchain. I would have sought appointment.

    Oh well. I presume the committee will be repopulated in a few months after the convention anyway.

  150. paulie Post author

    SC has requested that Arvin Vohra not be listed as their rep on LNC as a non-regioned state. Sarwark instructs Benedict to note that on the website.

  151. Chuck Moulton

    Wow… the candidate support criteria went completely off the rails. I can’t conceive of why we the LP would ever give a dime to candidates who aren’t ideologically libertarians or who won’t brand their campaign materials as Libertarian. Sounds like the LNC smoked a little too much on 4/20.

    I hope the votes to strip those criteria were roll calls.

  152. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Chuck Moulton April 22, 2018 at 12:13: Oh well. I presume the committee will be repopulated in a few months after the convention anyway.

    ME: yeah, once they figure out how mathematical and computer database related it is. OI!!

  153. Steve Scheetz

    Chuck, the committee created here today was designed to flesh out what a block chain committee would actually do, offer suggestions, and then the new LNC would be responsible for creating a standing committee dedicated to block chain.

    Sincerely,

    Steve Scheetz

  154. Chuck Moulton

    Sorry I wasn’t able to follow along to the stream this LNC meeting. I had a state committee meeting several hours drive yesterday.

    Thanks to Paulie, Starchild, Joe, and others for live blogging.

  155. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Carol’s public comment: can’t we get rid of the dang flaming chicken.

    That is all I think of when see it. sigh…

  156. paulie Post author

    Thanks to everyone who helped liveblog and read. As always additions and corrections are appreciated.

  157. Chuck Moulton

    Starchild,

    We have a congressional candidate in Montgomery County, PA with whom I want you to speak (if you haven’t already). Steve Scheetz or I can give you contact info.

  158. Chuck Moulton

    I’m still catching up on reports to the LNC.

    Civil war union soldier uniform guy who sought the 2016 presidential nomination seems to be the California LP’s endorsed candidate for U.S. Senate?!!

  159. paulie Post author

    Do they have an endorsed candidate? There are several “prefers LP” candidates in the primary and the state convention has not happened yet.

  160. paulie Post author

    Just looked at the Region 4 report and Reid does not have endorsed by his name, unlike a lot of others.

  161. Chuck Moulton

    I’m about to start Caryn Ann Harlos’s region 1 novel. I should be done early next month, at which time I will resume monitoring this IPR comment thread.

  162. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    George Phillies – April 22, 2018 at 12:57: “Ebke also seems to imply she believes government grants rights:”

    Me, CM: I just had some “libertarian minarchist” tell me that we need the govt to enforce anti-discrimination laws. And then start scream bigot all over the place for posting an LP FB page meme of the platform.

    A New Hampshire LP representative, a Democrat who admits he joined the LP rather than a “red” party because he thinks it’s more pro-military for trans (or something), worked to pass a law against discrimination and boasts about it.

    Now I think I finally understand why some libertarians are screaming vs. “SJWs” ???? It’s not just the voluntary libertarian socialists they are freaking (inaccurately) at.
    https://www.facebook.com/josephstallcop/posts/499427723792249:0

  163. Chuck Moulton

    paulie wrote:

    I’ve made it to page 39, the start of Colorado in the pdf version.

    Impressive!!

    I was exhausted after the table of contents; however, I persevered until the end of Alaska. I am on break now.

  164. Hmm.

    The “blockchain committee” is seriously the dumbest idea to come out of the LNC in a while, and that’s saying something.

  165. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    George Phillies – April 22, 2018 at 13:33: Yes, government organizations should not discriminate against groups of people based on their bedroom practices.

    Here’s the NH law. It applies to private facilities and persons overwhelmingly: HOUSE BILL 1319, AN ACT prohibiting discrimination based on gender identity.

    …A state agency is hereby created with power to eliminate and prevent discrimination in employment, in places of public accommodation and in housing accommodations because of age, sex, gender identity, race, creed, color, marital status, familial status, physical or mental disability or national origin as herein provided; and the commission established hereunder is hereby given general jurisdiction and power for such purposes. In addition, the agencies and councils so created shall exercise their authority to assure that no person be discriminated against on account of sexual orientation….

    I posted the wrong link above. This Stallcop article explains the “libertarian” rationale for creating and enforcing such laws. http://www.concordmonitor.com/Protect-transgender-people-from-discrimination-16947036

  166. Marc Montoni

    I listened to Ms Ebke at the Colorado state convention at the end of March.

    Her willingness to come talk to us was certainly appreciated.

    Frankly, she spent way too much time speaking about how we needed to embrace compromise and not be tied too much to ideology.

    But then, Larry Sharpe and Nick Sarwark pretty much did the same in their own talks.

    Whatever.

    I do find it quite annoying that the LNC adopted a set of guidelines and then promptly ignored them in the rush to support a candidate they like (one who tends to avoid saying anything radical or revolutionary).

    There is no mistaking the willingness of the cool kids to root for “one of their own” — using everyone else’s money.

    It reminds me of high school pep rallies.

  167. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Good comments, Marc. I think it’s the desperation for legitimacy and the worship of those elected. Pretty sad.

  168. Michael Wilson

    Anyone consider calling Ms. Ebke and speaking to her about what she wrote regarding the source of rights?

  169. Joseph Buchman

    Indeed Aaron Starr was not here. I did get to meet the chair of the audit committee (on which I serve) Julia Fox for the first time, and was going to submit a chair’s report for Utah immediately after our convention (for which I also owe IPR an article), but after driving Nick back from Cedar City (the location of our convention) I was struck with a gout attack in my right knee. Wound up in an ER, and then home in bed for a couple of days and missed the deadline for a Chair’s report for Caryn Ann.

    Joe

  170. paulie Post author

    I was exhausted after the table of contents; however, I persevered until the end of Alaska. I am on break now.

    Perhaps the difference was that I skipped the table of contents.

  171. Jill Pyeatt

    Chuck, Derrick Michael Reid hasn’t been endorsed, and he doesn’t expect to be. Our convention is this next weekend, and I’ll try to do some live blogging. Drama is promised by the convicted pedophile among us who insists on disrupting every meeting. Plus, our chair has moved to Texas, so we’ll need to vote on a new one.

    C-Span will be covering the convention, and we have more than a hundred people signed up to attend

    Derrick has actually dropped the civil war routine, and has become must closer to a Libertarian. I don’t think the convention body will endorse him, however.

  172. paulie Post author

    The “blockchain committee” is seriously the dumbest idea to come out of the LNC in a while, and that’s saying something.

    Why? It makes sense to explore how this emerging technology can be useful to LP.

  173. Jill Pyeatt

    Another interesting thing planned for next weekend is whom we’ll endorse for governor. The two main characters are transhumanist Zoltan Istvan, who calls himself small ‘L’ Libertarian, and Nickolas Wildstar. Zoltan hasn’t made any effort to get to know any Libertarians, and behaves like an elitist. He seems to be the only one getting attention in the media, however (along with the other rich white guys running in the other parties). Wildstar, however, goes to meeting s across the state. He is warm, charismatic, and genuine. I’ll be supporting Wildstar.

  174. Andy

    I like Nicholas Wilstar from what I know of him. It is a shame that he will be lost in the shuffle of Top Two Primary, and therefore shut off the general election ballot.

  175. Caryn Ann Harlos

    Yes Paulie. There was a debate over whether the contribution ran afoul of our Policy Manual and it was stifled. That is deeply troubling. I do think everyone that voted no on extending time has something to answer for.

    I just posted this to the LNC list:

    Though apparently the criteria don’t mean anything since no time was allotted to debate whether or not Senator Ebke did or did not. Honestly I don’t know – but I do think it was very unfortunate that there was a refusal to extend time when an issue of our policy manual was in dispute.

    My personal opinion? I do think Senator Ebke likely fell outside the criteria just passed but that could have been easily cured with a short statement on her website (at least that would have satisfied any concern I have – I cannot speak for the others).

    I adore Senator Ebke but we have a bad habit if just finding ways around rules. Think of the Wiener Rule in which a past LNC decided that we only had to budget for it and not to actually pay it.

    **Why have a Candidate Support Committee (of which I was a part and did expend time I could have done elsewhere) if the criteria (and the watered down version!!!!) are promptly ignored. Deeply. Concerning.**

  176. Anon-Tipper

    The blockchain group looks absolutely toxic and is probably going to be used for entryism. (It looks like others have raised this alarm). It’s really shameful if Heise (or however his name is spelled) gets elevated in the LP. And Vohra has made facebook posts saying that alt-righters were better than people that wanted more school funding (I had posted them in either the open thread or a Vohra related post) and it looks like he put together this committee? Great.

    I think left-libertarianism is growing lately in the U.S. libertarian movement, which I think is positive and I’m really excited about it; I think it can give everyone new ways to think about their political views, I’ve refined my views based on engaging more with it.

    I’m not worried about Ebke’s campaign site.

    Also, thank you Paulie and everyone for live-blogging this.

  177. paulie Post author

    The blockchain group looks absolutely toxic and is probably going to be used for entryism.

    Some of them are of that ilk but I don’t know who the rest are at all.

    It’s really shameful if Heise (or however his name is spelled) gets elevated in the LP.

    Agreed.

    he put together this committee?

    Not entirely. He suggested some of the people who ended up on it but LNC voted. I haven’t compared the list of who nominated whom to see whether everyone elected were his nominees, although I know for sure some of them were, but how many?

  178. Andy

    Heise is a good guy and one hell of an activist. I think he’d make a good LNC Chairman, but I doubt he is interested in running for that, at least not any time soon.

  179. Caryn Ann Harlos

    There was broad cross-spectrum support for the blockchain committee (members from the rads, prags, and miss are all on it).

    We need to stop seeing entryists under every bush. When there is an overt entryist attempt that is the time – if one cries wolf too often, it will be ignored when needed. And I would say that not only goes for alt-right but also the far socialist/communist left.

  180. Anon-Tipper

    Heise is literally an entryist that started the Mises Caucus. He shouldn’t be ignored.

  181. Anon-Tipper

    Paulie: “Not entirely. He suggested some of the people who ended up on it but LNC voted. I haven’t compared the list of who nominated whom to see whether everyone elected were his nominees, although I know for sure some of them were, but how many?”

    Oh okay, I had gone off a comment earlier in the thread (http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2018/04/lnc-meeting-coverage-denver-april-21-22-2018/#comment-1773022) and mixed up nominated. It looks like Heise made it in, was voted in? Yikes!

  182. Anon-Tipper

    Andy: “Heise is a good guy and one hell of an activist. I think he’d make a good LNC Chairman, but I doubt he is interested in running for that, at least not any time soon. ”

    Not the kind of activism we need, we do not need a “Ron Paul revolution 2.0.” Paleos should have been shown the door a long time ago. Unless you think libertarians being associated with publications like Taki Magazine, who endorsed the Nazi party in Greece, is good for us: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taki%27s_Magazine

    Looks who is on that list: Woods, Napolitano, Raimondo, Mercer.

  183. paulie Post author

    Paleos should have been shown the door a long time ago. Unless you think libertarians being associated with publications like Taki Magazine, who endorsed the Nazi party in Greece, is good for us

    Exactly.

  184. Caryn Ann Harlos

    Heise is not an entryist. That is absolutely ridiculous. And while not a conservative myself, just like there is a place for more left leaning libertarians there is also a place for more right leaning ones.

    And I like Ron Paul. Egad. Maybe I’m a nazi!!!

    No. It is just I don’t expect perfection, but this throw Ron Paul under the bus nonsense is not anything I will get behind. I criticize Ron when he is wrong but it is foolish and myopic to utterly reject. The vast majority of the Party does not agree with you, and if the vast majority are on the “get out” list well you got a problem. Not them.

  185. Caryn Ann Harlos

    Sounds like pre-crime Paulie. I await your equal concern about open communists.

    The far left is just as much a threat, and in going to conventions there is a growing frustration with the Party leadership in not recognizing that. In fact, it is the more left contingent that is currently part of a perceived harassment campaign against multiple women, and that is coming home hard to roost. One of them is going to be on national television (A&E I think).

    Honestly you all need to settle down. It has gotten beyond the hysterical point.

    Unless you think Starchild is now donning the brown shirt and jack boots since he spent a very pleasant day with Heise actually getting to know him. Starchild doesn’t buy into the mass hysteria and I think his judgment will be very different than what is seen here.

  186. paulie Post author

    Ron Paul is hardly the issue at this point. His ’88 campaign brought a lot of this nonsense into the party to begin with or at least bolstered it, and conservative fusionism was a problem way before that. But at this point it’s reached existential problem levels as I detailed in my article. The people I am concerned with are a lot younger than Ron Paul, at least the vast majority of them, and Heise and his caucus are putting out a constant dog whistle to the worst of the worst. At this point the party is already imbalanced way too far to the right and bringing in nationalists and racists from the extreme far right is the last thing we need. With their blood and soil ideology that’s exactly what the Hoppeans masquerading as Misesans are doing.

  187. Caryn Ann Harlos

    === Heise and his caucus are putting out a constant dog whistle to the worst of the worst.===

    Nonsense. Particularly when it comes to Heise. You usually are much more balanced than that Paulie.

    === At this point the party is already imbalanced way too far to the right===

    Is it really? Not when the national Party openly kisses up to the left. I want us to stop kissing in either direction.

    ===and bringing in nationalists and racists from the extreme far right is the last thing we need.===

    Bringing in far left violent terrorists and communists is just as bad.

    ==With their blood and soil ideology that’s exactly what the Hoppeans masquerading as Misesans are doing.====

    Nearly every Hoppean that is the sort you are describing was thrown out of that caucus but you refuse to see. That is being unjust, and while that caucus is far more conservative than is my cup of tea, I will not be unjust in my evaluation.

    You are being unfair to Heise and Smith. None of this has anything to do with any LNC race. Both Heise and Smith know that I think they are being unfair to Sarwark.

  188. paulie Post author

    Sounds like pre-crime Paulie. I await your equal concern about open communists.

    If and when this kind of stuff about open communists infiltrating the LP/LM gets on the first page of search results for “libertarian” I’ll be equally concerned.

    Does libertarianism have an alt-right problem?
    Washington Post Aug 23, 2017?

    Is There Really an ‘Insidious Libertarian-To-Alt-Right Pipeline’?
    Reason (blog) Aug 23, 2017

    Why Libertarians Go Alt-Right
    The American Interest Aug 23, 2017

    Trump – A Friend of Libertarianism
    Being Libertarian Aug 29, 2017

    Libertarians wrestle with the alt-right – The Washington Post
    Washington Post Aug 24, 2017

    The Insidious Libertarian-to-Alt-Right Pipeline
    Daily Beast Aug 22, 2017

    “Weeping Nazi” Christopher Cantwell went from libertarian to fascist — and he’s not alone
    Salon Aug 26, 2017?

    Libertarianism, Individualism, and Racism
    Cato Institute (blog) Aug 25, 2017

    The far left is just as much a threat,

    Which state has several members of a leftist militia on their LP exec comm? LPF has at least three patched members of the American Guard on theirs.

    left contingent that is currently part of a perceived harassment campaign against multiple women

    I didn’t know Jeff Wood constituted a contingent. Him and who else?

    One of them is going to be on national television (A&E I think).

    Haven’t heard this. Weeks?

  189. paulie Post author

    Not when the national Party openly kisses up to the left.

    LOL, how so?

    Bringing in far left violent terrorists and communists is just as bad.

    Except that it’s just not happening to nearly the same extent. The scale is not even remotely the same from anything I’ve seen. Please show evidence to the contrary.

    You are being unfair to Heise and Smith.

    I don’t think I am. From palling around with Ramsey to defending the blood and soil speech it just goes on and on.

  190. George Phillies

    “Anon-Tipper April 22, 2018 at 22:46 The blockchain group looks absolutely toxic and is probably going to be used for entryism. ”

    You claim to have found a way blockchains can be used for something? It appeared that that committee was supposed to try to propose applications for someone else to try.

  191. What A Mess

    Drama is promised by the convicted pedophile among us who insists on disrupting every meeting.

    The Fatman still hasn’t keeled over or been shot by the family of one of his serial pedophile victims?

  192. Caryn Ann Harlos

    Argumentum ad googleum isn’t an argument. I don’t make my assessments based on first pages of search results (I’m trusting you on that, since I think it is a terrible “proof” I didn’t bother to try replicating).

    One does not need to be a in a “leftist militia” – there are multiple LP leaders who openly defend anti-fa.

    And you don’t think Wood has his own group that aid and assist? Alrighty then. Perhaps you shouldn’t discount the voices of women who speak otherwise. But some of them are more “conservative” so I guess they are fair game.

    Resa will be on television.

    And as far as LOL, ask Nick, he will tell you we are openly kissing up to the left (i.e. the blue wave strategy). And I have strenuously objected – this is no secret – and I would just as strenuously object to a red wave strategy – I think we need to screw all that and stick to the yellow wave. You have a huge set of blinders on here Paulie and I have no idea why. With your family history and knowledge you know that the ravaging left is just as dangerous and deadly.

  193. Anon-Tipper

    Paulie:”It would if the far left was nearly as much of an entryist existential threat to the LP and LM.”

    Agreed. If we start to see tankie infestation, I don’t think we’ll be as slow to point it out as we’ve been with the alt-righters; so I’m ultimately not worried. I’m going to bookmark that article, since it’s good to get the point across on why the alt-right needs to be the focus.

    The LibSoc caucus has a podcast (youtube videos) so we can get a glimpse of what they’re about (they have bylaws now too):
    http://johnnylemuria.com/2017/09/libsoc-caucus-3.html

    From what I’m seeing, I think that a lot of them are market oriented left-libertarians; some georgists/geolibertarians, mutualists, left-market anarchists (like Roderick Long), etc. I haven’t seen any tankies. I think some of this is alt-right reaction too and some is reconnecting libertarianism with the left; we’ll see where this goes.

    I’m more worried about centrists conflating us with authoritarian extremists, online comments are not a good indicator, but I’ve seen a number of centrists (Clinton/Romney voters) saying that libertarians should be killed or thrown in gitmo (and a number saying we were as bad as tankies!), and I think if the trend continues, we could become politically oppressed in similar ways that libertarian socialists were because they were conflated with authoritarian state-socialists. That sounds dramatic, but we’ve had McCarthyism in the U.S. not very long ago and the Feds have kept tabs on libertarians (there was a FOIA request recently on Gary Gygax where they noted his association with the Libertarian Party for example). (I don’t this is very likely, but it’s a warning that we absolutely have to be worried about our reputation not just for electoral reasons, but in general).

  194. Stewart Flood

    “SC has requested that Arvin Vohra not be listed as their rep on LNC as a non-regioned state. Sarwark instructs Benedict to note that on the website.”

    Point of information: We made that demand (not request!) over TEN MONTHS AGO, both in writing and by phone call to the national office and were told several times that it would get corrected. I contacted Alicia about a procedural question regarding our local county convention over the weekend and mentioned this “in passing” as something that had never been done. I do not believe she had ever heard of our request before, since it was not sent to the Secretary but to the national chair. It appears something is now going to be done!

    VOHRA MUST GO!!!

  195. Anon-Tipper

    George: “You claim to have found a way blockchains can be used for something? It appeared that that committee was supposed to try to propose applications for someone else to try.”

    I’m not talking about the blockchain being toxic, I’m talking about a known entryists, Heise, being nominated and voted on that committee. And apparently one of his friends too.

  196. Anon-Tipper

    Wasn’t Mike Shipley in this thread earlier? I think he has screenshots of Joshua Smith defending the American Guard. It might still be on the facebook page he runs.

  197. paulie Post author

    Argumentum ad googleum isn’t an argument.

    Sure it is. Right wing entryism into the LP/LM is a big enough problem that it received lots of mainstream media attention. Augustus Invictus, one of the main organizers of the Unite the Right march in which his fellow fascists murdered a woman and injured dozens of others – many not in the car attack that gained the most attention – and the primary author of what has been called the “Port Huron Statement of the Alt Right” – was a recent LP member and was an LPF exec comm member until he quit, defended by most of his fellow LPF board members as a Libertarian in good standing despite his more or less full time open networking and building of the racist/fascist movement in the US. Christopher Cantwell, the most recognizable face of the Charlottesville fascist marchers, is also a recent LP member and candidate. Richard Spencer, the godfather of the alt right, was a Ron Paul activist and hatched the idea of the alt right together with Paul Gottfried, who is regularly published by Lew Rockwell. The same Lew Rockwell who likely wrote much of the worst crap in the Ron Paul Newsletters, popularized Hoppe and whose network spawned “Libertarians for Trump” among many other abominations.

    Where is the equivalence on the left entryist front? Are Jeff Wood, James Weeks and Matt Kuehnel organizing violent antifa marches, issuing the “Port Huron Statement of the Antifa” and putting together “Unite the Left” events where dozens of their opponents are injured in multiple attacks including a murder? Are they on the exec comm of the Michigan LP with the full support of their fellow exec comm majority? Are they generating hundreds of mainstream news stories in every format, including some leading the nightly news and the front page of major publications?

  198. Anon-Tipper

    Wasn’t Mike Shipley in this thread earlier? I think he has screenshots of Joshua Smith defending the American Guard. It might still be on the facebook page he runs.

  199. Anon-Tipper

    “Argumentum ad googleum isn’t an argument.”

    You’re living under a rock if you don’t think that the ancap (LvMI type)/paleos haven’t been a source of infiltration for decades:

    A number of ancaps/paleos here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taki%27s_Magazine

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/?s=Pat+Buchanan

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/?s=Paul+Gottfried

    Fired from the National Review, then hired by the LvMI, for antisemitism and giving lectures at a holocaust denial organization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Sobran

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_and_Freedom_Society

    “The Eighth Annual Meeting of PFS was held in from September 19–24, 2013. Topics on the agenda included “The Myth of American Exceptionalism,” “World War Two Revisited,” and “Why are the Jews So Smart?,” as well as a presentation on the history of race relations in the United States delivered by white nationalist and segregationist Jared Taylor. PFS Founder Hans-Hermann Hoppe presented his remarks “On the Nature of Man, Truth, and Justice.”[7] It featured lectures by LSU law school graduate Stephan Kinsella on the legal structure of an anarchist society; lectures by Hoppe on Rothbardian economics; and discussions on the role of race in America by racialist scientist Richard Lynn and white nationalists Jared Taylor[8] and Richard B. Spencer.[9] Other speakers who have spoken at PFS include: Paul Gottfried,[10] Peter Brimelow,[11] John Derbyshire,[12] and Justin Raimondo.[13] English classical liberal and Libertarian Alliance Director Sean Gabb has spoken at a number of meetings on a variety of topics including the link between conservatism and liberty, the case against the War of American Independence, and the life and politics of Enoch Powell.”

  200. paulie Post author

    One does not need to be a in a “leftist militia” – there are multiple LP leaders who openly defend anti-fa.

    There are different definitions of antifa. One is simply antifascist. I haven’t heard of any LP leaders defending antifa initiations of force. When and where have any LP leaders defended that? And in the case of the American Guard we aren’t just talking about defending them – we are talking about multiple current as well as former LPF exec comm members who are patched members and organizers of this violent gang which also includes many open members of explicitly racist white power gangs. American Guard openly takes its inspiration from Bill the Butcher, a mass murderer and leader of a vicious anti-immigrant gang/militia. Again where is the equivalence of a state LP with multiple members of such a gang on the left on their exec comm?

    The “equivalence” you come up with is LP leaders “defending” a generically undefined antifa, and that’s no equivalence at all.

    And you don’t think Wood has his own group that aid and assist?

    Yes, but they are tiny compared with the far right entryists. If they weren’t I would be equally concerned with them but the scale is vastly different.

    And as far as LOL, ask Nick, he will tell you we are openly kissing up to the left.

    That’s long overdue to the limited extent that it happens.

    With your family history and knowledge you know that the ravaging left is just as dangerous and deadly.

    Absolutely. If they ever made the kind of inroads in the LP that the alt right is making I would speak out. I do speak out against the crap Wood pulls as it is. Ask me any time in public or private and I will say so.

    But if you want apples to apples, let me know when we’ve had a LP presidential candidate who has campaigned in front of a communist flag, published newsletters for decades praising communist leaders and candidates and circulating Soviet-style caricatures of businesspeople and inherited wealth, who serves to this day as an icon to communist groups all over the country. Let me know when news of leftist entryists into the LP/LM dominates search results for libertarian and mainstream news coverage the way the alt right and its connection to libertarianism did in August of last year. If and when an equivalence occurs I will speak out against it. Until then I’ll not that the scale of the problems is vastly different.

  201. paulie Post author

    You claim to have found a way blockchains can be used for something?

    I’m not sure what you mean.

    https://blockgeeks.com/guides/blockchain-applications/

    https://hackernoon.com/popular-use-cases-of-blockchain-technology-you-need-to-know-df4e1905d373

    https://www.coindesk.com/information/applications-use-cases-blockchains/

    http://mitsloan.mit.edu/newsroom/articles/blockchains-applications-reach-further-than-you-t

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/ameer-rosic-/5-blockchain-applications_b_13279010.html

    It appeared that that committee was supposed to try to propose applications for someone else to try.

    No, investigate ways that blockchain applications can help the LP and ways in which the LP can network with the blockchain application development community, as I understand it.

  202. Caryn Ann Harlos

    And circling back around to the specific issue HERE. Heise is not an entryist. The purpose of the Mises Caucus is not entryist. It is collectivist nonsense to be upset about something over “there” and then going all purgey over “here.”

    The hostility to Heise is irrational. Do I think he has gone over the top in his complaints? Yes. I told him. I also know that many of us come out flailing a bit too wildly and need more experienced people to come alongside and teach. I think it is pretty shameful these attacks on a person you know little to nothing about it. If you want to attack what I think has been his over-the-top rhetoric against the current LNC – that’s fair game. But the rest is irrational and a great way to drive off good activists. Oh yeah that’s right, he has the heresy of being more “paleo” – sorry that is a part of the LP and has always been. Its not my jam, but I have no place to be calling for the purifying fire and am embarrassed by the irrational attacks against people.

  203. paulie Post author

    “paleo” – sorry that is a part of the LP and has always been.

    No, it hasn’t. It’s an abomination that was hatched in the 1980s by Rothbard and Rockwell to graft a Frankenstein’s monster of an alliance between libertarianism and the “peckerwood populism” of Pat Buchanan and David Duke. This horribly botched partial birth abortion of a bad idea has continued to haunt the LP and LM, from the Ron Paul newsletters which killed off most of the positive potential of Ron Paul’s later presidential campaigns and movement to the Alt Right, Libertarians for Trump and much else that continues to bring nothing but shame and disrepute on the party and movement. The absolute last thing we need is to invite even more of this garbage into the LP, particularly in the recent wake of Invictus, Cantwell, the Unite the Right murderous fascists, etc. This trash needs to be taken out of the party and movement. It’s overdue.

  204. Anon-Tipper

    I genuinely confused on why we should just accept paleo nonsense as “part of the LP,” I posted a number of links with Hoppe, Tom Woods, Rockwell openly fraternizing with known fascists (they very publicly write for a magazine that supported a Nazi party in Greece ffs!). We shouldn’t be questioning someone who openly dog-whistles to that contingency? The Logo for the Mises Caucus is the same as the LvMI logo! And they’ve been openly friendly towards Ryan Ramsey.

  205. paulie Post author

    Sam Goldstein, Cara Schulz and 6 others posted in LP 2018 Delegates – unofficial.

    Sam Goldstein
    April 23 at 10:42am

    Apparently a couple people are upset about my opposition to the Blockchain Committee at last weekend’s LNC meeting. My problem was not with the concept of reaching out to new ideas and technologies but in the crafting of the motion itself. If either of these two people had ever attended a LNC meeting before or had consulted with a LNC member about the motion, it would have likely gotten a better reception.

    The motion as submitted did not establish any specifics as to goals and objectives, committee appointment procedures, reporting standards, etc. Committee creation motions for the LNC do not use “and more” to describe what the committee is to do nor use words like “miners and whales” that have no political connections.

    As amended at the meeting the committee has a fairly short life span since it will expire at the beginning of the convention business meeting. Hopefully the committee will have a coherent report to present to the LNC at the meeting prior to the convention about how this technology can aid the LP. If so then I would support renewing the committee should I be reelected to the LNC.

  206. Michael Wilson

    In my many years in the LP I have seen enough dysfunction at the state level to leave me questioning the value of blockchain. More effort needs to be developed at the local and state level to grow the LP. Too many people who rise to the top at the local level don’t have the management skills needed to run their local organizations.

  207. Caryn Ann Harlos

    Paulie it got that name then. It was part of it in the beginning. Again not my thing but neither are these expansive purge calls and invective against people I know and aren’t how you are describing.

  208. Michael Wilson

    Continuing my comments about inadequate management at the local level of the party. I read that there will be a training class on FEC regulations at the convention. That is one of the best ideas I have seen in awhile. There are a number of issues such as that which local people need some training on.

    1) I don’t know how many of the state parties have a non-profit bulk mail permit and know how to use it, then actually do you it but that permit would be a great outreach tool to use if you live in one of the states that people registered to vote by party.
    2) People also need some training in building a media list.
    3) Writing news releases and using that media list.
    4) The does and don’ts of building a website.
    5) Shopping for services. note; FedEx (aka Kinko’s) isn’t the only place in the nation to get copies made and it is usually the most expensive place in most cities.
    6) The benefits of keeping the local people informed about your activities.
    7) How to of fundraising.

    Now I’ll shut up.

  209. Michael Wilson

    Well, I screwed up the first item on that list. Let me try again.
    I wrote; 1) I don’t know how many of the state parties have a non-profit bulk mail permit and know how to use it, then actually do you ( I should have written “use” ) it but that permit would be a great outreach tool to use if you live in one of the states that people registered to vote by party.

  210. paulie Post author

    Paulie it got that name then. It was part of it in the beginning.

    What was it called in the LP then? What are some examples prior to mid 80s? As far as I know the “peckerwood populists” at that time were supporting George Wallace, and later AIP candidates John Schmitz (1972), split into two parties (American and AIP) – one with TJ Anderson and one with Lester Maddox in 1976. Some were also absorbed into the Republicans via Nixon and Reagan’s southern strategy. I’m not aware of peckerwood populism in the LP of the 1970s. Rothbard for his part didn’t turn in that direction until the 1980s (other than much earlier in his support for Strom Thurmond, but he was not advocating that junk while he was involved with the LP, at least not until well into the 1980s decade. Who in the LP was?

    Again not my thing but neither are these expansive purge calls and invective against people I know and aren’t how you are describing.

    My purge calls, to the extent they are such, are against ideas, not people. I am all about giving individuals second chances – I’ve certainly needed some. But the change has to be real, not e.g. Ramsey or Invictus (while he was in the LP) claiming to be “former” white nationalists when it is abundantly clear that they still are to this day from their own words and actions.

  211. paulie Post author

    In my many years in the LP I have seen enough dysfunction at the state level to leave me questioning the value of blockchain.

    Please connect the dots for me there. What does one have to do with the other?

  212. paulie Post author

    There are a number of issues such as that which local people need some training on.

    1) I don’t know how many of the state parties have a non-profit bulk mail permit and know how to use it, then actually do you it but that permit would be a great outreach tool to use if you live in one of the states that people registered to vote by party.
    2) People also need some training in building a media list.
    3) Writing news releases and using that media list.
    4) The does and don’ts of building a website.
    5) Shopping for services. note; FedEx (aka Kinko’s) isn’t the only place in the nation to get copies made and it is usually the most expensive place in most cities.
    6) The benefits of keeping the local people informed about your activities.
    7) How to of fundraising.

    https://lpaction.org/

  213. Michael Wilson

    Paulie wrote; “Please connect the dots for me there. What does one have to do with the other?”

    I see people spending time and money on developing blockchain and then not using it thanks to turnover, which is a big problem, and lack of interest.

  214. paulie Post author

    I don’t think that makes sense. It’s like if there was a WWW committee in the early 1990s to consider how the web could be used to benefit the party. It wouldn’t make sense to say thanks to turnover and lack of interest nothing would be done with it.

  215. Michael Wilson

    Paulie, thank you. I did not even know that existed. However, maybe I overlooked it but I did not see anything about the postal rules of using the non-profit bulk mail permit that we can get from the USPS. Maybe we don’t wish to use a non-profit bulk mail permit from the post office.

  216. paulie Post author

    A lot of the topics you mentioned are there. You may want to contact Andy Burns from LP national to suggest any topics he has not yet covered there, including bulk mail permits if he hasn’t got to it yet.

  217. Michael Wilson

    I have seen a number of real, poor websites set up by Libertarians. Maybe I expect too much.

    I have been in three state parties and I have seen a number of projects started and then dropped when a change in leadership happens. That in turns leads to a decline in membership.

  218. Caryn Ann Harlos

    Paulie I have broad overviews not names- as I am doing research I’ll flesh out. This isn’t an area of deep interest for me (though I think you are wrong about Rothbard).

    You are letting your correct disgust with Invictus and RR lead you to cast too wise a net. Heise and Smith do not deserve the treatment you are giving them.

    Heise would like to speak with you – interested?

  219. Stewart Flood

    South Carolina used to have a bulk permit. The rules for using it require mailings far larger than we were doing, so it was mostly a waste of money. When you only have a few people in each zipcode, you don’t get the discount (haven’t for years).

  220. Michael Wilson

    Stewart, I know that not all of the state parties have the numbers to justify a permit but I have never had a problem getting 200 or 500 pieces together in the state where I lived. I don’t know if California, Texas or any other states use the permit. I guess I am just an old frustrated person who thinks we need to get off our asses at the local level and start doing things instead of expecting national to do it all or much of it. Btw the last fundraising mailing I did cost just about $150 and brought in around a $1000. Not a bad return on that investment.

  221. Andy

    Anon-Tipper, I am confused about why left wing “political correctness” and Cultural Marxism is being accepted as if it has anything to do with libertarianism (hint: it does not).

    Libertarianism is about property rights and the Non-Aggression Principle, and that is it.

    Social preferences should be kept out of the discussion as much as possible.

  222. Anon-Tipper

    “Anon-Tipper, I am confused about why left wing “political correctness” and Cultural Marxism is being accepted as if it has anything to do with libertarianism (hint: it does not).”

    Cultural Marxism is a nazi term. I was not aware that left-wingers like Lysander Spooner, Herbert Spencer, Thomas Paine, Henry George were “cultural marxists” or that they were marxists at all.

    “Libertarianism is about property rights and the Non-Aggression Principle, and that is it.”

    Try telling that to any contemporary libertarian philosopher.

  223. Michael Wilson

    We used to pay about 20 cents for one piece out of 500 going to one zip code. We didn’t get the best discount but we didn’ thave to pay first class rates.

  224. George Phillies

    “Bulk Rate” and “non-profit rate” are not the same.

    Instead of buying a bulk rate permit and understanding the rules, it is much easier to retain the services of a mailing house. Massachusetts has done this for several decades, at least on and off.

  225. Chuck Moulton

    Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:

    You are letting your correct disgust with Invictus and RR lead you to cast too wise a net. Heise and Smith do not deserve the treatment you are giving them.

    They absolutely deserve that treatment.

    There are many, many, many problems with Hiese, Smith, and the Hoppe Caucus. Entryism or racism are the least of them.

    The most fundamental problem I have with them is they are bald faced liars, ad evidenced by their shenanigans with the Ron Paul convention invitation. I’ve seen zero acknowledgement of contrition from them about that. I do not trust anything known liars say and I have no desire to associate with them — full stop. Even if they had no other problems whatsoever, that alone is a reason to keep them far away from any positions of responsibility within the LP. I too believe in second chances, but that’s only possible if the culprits take responsibility for their earlier errors and say “Hey, we were fucking asshole morons before. Sorry about that.”

    In addition to that, they explicitly want to gut the platform and turn it from libertarian to paleo (immigration, abortion, etc.). That too in itself would be a reason to keep them from any positions of responsibility and stop them from making delegate inroads.

    But there’s more! On top of those two already sufficient reasons to oppose the Hoppe Caucus, they have repeatedly defended racist, white nationalist explicit statements and dog whistles from the paleos they fawn over, like Tom Woods. I like a lot of what Tom Woods says and does, but we must not be afraid to distance ourselves from him when he drinks and spreads the “blood and soil” Kool Aid. Conversely, they attack good libertarians (like Nick Sarwark) when they try to distance us from “blood and soil” white nationalist garbage. It is hard to interpret those actions as anything other than embracing racism and white nationalism.

    The reason Hiese isn’t already in leadership is some of us in Pennsylvania see the problem and are actively working to prevent that from happening. I hope delegates to the national convention will be similarly weary of him and his Hoppe nonsense.

    I’ve been involved in the LP long enough to see many interlopers show up thinking they are God’s gift to the movement and we have been getting things wrong for 45 years because the LP platform is libertarian instead of paleo. They come in like bulls in a china closet and spend most of their energy trying to get thousands of Libertarians to conform with them rather than working within the constraints of a party that was founded and continued to be libertarian. It saves everyone a lot of time and headache to show then the door as soon as possible.

  226. paulie Post author

    Cultural Marxism is a nazi term. I was not aware that left-wingers like Lysander Spooner, Herbert Spencer, Thomas Paine, Henry George were “cultural marxists” or that they were marxists at all.

    Exactly. Furthermore, Hoppe is a Marxist so he’s the real “cultural Marxist” (wrongly) associated with libertarianism. As for real life Marxists, I lived in a Marxist dictatorship and their social/cultural policies are conformist, conservative and regressive. There was no tolerance of LGBT folks, illegal drugs, sexual commerce, pornography, erotica, polyamory, or even unconventional dress and hairstyles. Just like the infamous Marxist Hoppe and his reich wingers in the West.

    Anyone who blathers about “cultural marxism” is saying a lot more about themselves than whoever they are pointing fingers at.

    “Political correctness” is likewise a much abused term. The actual term does exist in doctrinaire Marxist circles, but the far more common usage is by reich wingers enforcing their own version of political correctness by catcalling anything that is politically *incorrect* from *their* perspective “political correctness.” Often it’s a disingenuous defense of racism or some other type of bigotry.

  227. paulie Post author

    Paulie I have broad overviews not names- as I am doing research I’ll flesh out. This isn’t an area of deep interest for me (though I think you are wrong about Rothbard).

    You are letting your correct disgust with Invictus and RR lead you to cast too wise a net. Heise and Smith do not deserve the treatment you are giving them.

    Heise would like to speak with you – interested?

    I think Chuck @17:50 has the perfect answer to this. My contact info is public and just about anyone is welcome to contact me but honestly I’m best in print, so the best thing for them to do would be to come on here and present their case themselves so that not only me but others such as Chuck, Anon-Tipper, dL and so on can examine and reply to what they have to say for themselves.

    I can’t say anything on “private” email that I wouldn’t say here and my preference is for public discussions. On the phone I say “uh” a lot and don’t always think of what to say quickly enough. So on here would be best.

    As for Rothbard, he went thru a New Left phase in the late 60s/early 70s and a somewhat more LP/libertarian phase for about a decade after that. From what I recall he did not start spouting right wing nonsense about abortion, immigration, homosexuals etc til the Mid 80s and did not try to create alliances with racists, bigots and the far right til that point.

  228. Anon-Tipper

    Paulie: “Exactly. Furthermore, Hoppe is a Marxist so he’s the real “cultural Marxist” (wrongly) associated with libertarianism.

    Yeah, I love to bring up that fact about Hoppe, he literally studied under Habermas at Frankfurt! lol!

    “As for real life Marxists, I lived in a Marxist dictatorship and their social/cultural policies are conformist, conservative and regressive. There was no tolerance of LGBT folks, illegal drugs, sexual commerce, pornography, erotica, polyamory, or even unconventional dress and hairstyles. Just like the infamous Marxist Hoppe and his reich wingers in the West.””

    Yup, there was widespread anti-antisemitism too, perfect alt-right fantasy. It was a horrible time and I can’t stand that these alt-righters are trying to equate people that oppose them with marxist dictators or tankies.

    Chuck: “They absolutely deserve that treatment.

    There are many, many, many problems with Hiese, Smith, and the Hoppe Caucus. Entryism or racism are the least of them….”

    Good post!

  229. Michael Wilson

    George Phillies here are the regulations as written on the USPO website. As the state party newsletter editor, our team used the non-profit bulk mail to send out our newsletter every other month for 4 and a half years.

    2-2.2 Qualified Political Committees
    The following political committees may be authorized to mail at nonprofit prices without regard to their nonprofit status:

    “National committee of a political party (the organization responsible for the party’s day-to-day operation at the national level).
    State committee of a political party (the organization responsible for the party’s day-to-day operation at the state level).
    The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee.
    The Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee.
    The National Republican Congressional Committee.
    The National Republican Senatorial Committee.”

    All of the state parties can get one and use it. Local stuff cost about 13 cents, out of town costs about 20 cents. A mailing I did in the fall of 2013 cost about $90 and was 500 pieces. It took me 8 hours to do the entire thing. While I sorted it someone else took it to the post office.

    Years ago a woman in the national office who I recall was named Daine Pilcher, or something like that used to urge us to get a permit and use it.

  230. Caryn Ann Harlos

    Chuck,

    ===The most fundamental problem I have with them is they are bald faced liars, ad evidenced by their shenanigans with the Ron Paul convention invitation. I’ve seen zero acknowledgement of contrition from them about that. I do not trust anything known liars say and I have no desire to associate with them — full stop. ===

    I do not impute dishonesty to what is better explained by paranoid victim mindset. They were absolutely wrong on that point. (Heise, not Smith – Smith has stayed away from that drama for the most part)

    ==Even if they had no other problems whatsoever, that alone is a reason to keep them far away from any positions of responsibility within the LP. I too believe in second chances, but that’s only possible if the culprits take responsibility for their earlier errors and say “Hey, we were fucking asshole morons before. Sorry about that.”==

    I think both have admitted past boorish behaviour.

    ==In addition to that, they explicitly want to gut the platform and turn it from libertarian to paleo (immigration, abortion, etc.). ===

    Proof of this? I have congenial relationships and am as open border as they come. And deleting the abortion plank has support in many circles, I have not seen any of them claim to want a pro life plank.

    ===But there’s more! On top of those two already sufficient reasons to oppose the Hoppe Caucus, they have repeatedly defended racist, white nationalist explicit statements and dog whistles from the paleos they fawn over, like Tom Woods. I like a lot of what Tom Woods says and does, but we must not be afraid to distance ourselves from him when he drinks and spreads the “blood and soil” Kool Aid. ===

    I think this is unfair. Where they are wrong is a refusal to concede that Deist was totally in the wrong for using that phrase – they are not wrong in pointing out that Deist was NOT promoting that view. I think Deist inadvertently may have given a welcome sign but that was not the intent of the speech.

    ==Conversely, they attack good libertarians (like Nick Sarwark) when they try to distance us from “blood and soil” white nationalist garbage. It is hard to interpret those actions as anything other than embracing racism and white nationalism.==

    That is not why they were upset with Nick. I understand WHY Nick made those statements, and I absolutely agree with Nick’s position that white nationalists have no place in the LP, but I objected publicly and privately to the way Nick went about it.

    ==The reason Hiese isn’t already in leadership is some of us in Pennsylvania see the problem and are actively working to prevent that from happening. I hope delegates to the national convention will be similarly weary of him and his Hoppe nonsense.==

    I can’t speak to your PA experience, I hope you can appreciate that I can only speak to my own. I think Heise is energetic and hot-headed and sometimes a bit too full of himself. I have seen a lot of maturing from him, and people need room to grow.

    ===I’ve been involved in the LP long enough to see many interlopers show up thinking they are God’s gift to the movement and we have been getting things wrong for 45 years because the LP platform is libertarian instead of paleo. They come in like bulls in a china closet and spend most of their energy trying to get thousands of Libertarians to conform with them rather than working within the constraints of a party that was founded and continued to be libertarian.===

    That is true for every flavor and yes, annoying. But it can be channeled and those who stay and learn can be great assets. Those that cannot be channeled end up leaving.

    I have seen them throw out white nationalists and the truly scummy bad actors. What they are a bit “guilty” of is naivette – which is soon shed.

  231. Caryn Ann Harlos

    Paulie understood but personal contact is better. I find IPR increasingly not a place for connections unless it is connecting my head to the drywall.

    You may not know my past stormy relationship with Heise. I think I have had him on block three times. Each time we actually spoke and got to know each other – he had legitimate grievances against me, and I him, and we worked it out. Are we BFF? No, we disagree on many things including a trigger finger to condemn the LNC for everything and anything. But we respect each other, and I have learned to mellow out where I can be a jerk. In all of my experiences, he is an energetic ernest hard working activist. And a friend. With all his faults. If he can accept my faults, I can accept his.

    And contrariwise when folks from that camp are upset with you or say anything unfair about you, I am saying the same things there. That you are a good friend and a great person.

  232. paulie Post author

    Paulie understood but personal contact is better.

    Like I said I will talk to almost anyone. In person is better for that, I will have a beer with almost whoever and it can be all good. Hell if Ryan Ramsey can be a grownup about it like his wife is, and not the petulant child he comes off as online, I could be cool with him in person. I don’t care what kind of crazy shit you believe, hell some of my offline friends and relatives believe in big government and I can be cool with them in person just fine. When I was young and in shape I was antifa – the violent kind – yet there were individual racists that I could be cool with in person, I could ignore the fact that they were fash and they managed to ignore the fact that most of my ancestors were Jews.

    Online I engage ideas. It doesn’t mean I can’t be cool with individuals who hold ideas I have strong disagreements with. If you want to argue ideas this is the best format for me right here. If you want to have a beer or twenty, some shots and hug it out, well shit, most likely we can. But your ideas won’t be any less right or wrong if we do (generic you, whoever you are).

    And contrariwise when folks from that camp are upset with you or say anything unfair about you, I am saying the same things there. That you are a good friend and a great person.

    Thank you, I appreciate that. I really do try to be a good person in meatspace and give everyone the benefit of the doubt. On here I do sometimes forget, despite my best intentions that there are real flesh and blood humans behind these words. It’s common when words are all you see. That’s one reason I try to make it to as many events as I can in person.

  233. Michael Wilson

    George, you are welcome. I will say that getting a group of volunteers together to work on a mailing allows people to have a discussion on issues that don’t regularly come up.

  234. paulie Post author

    Caryn Ann Harlos is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.

    Topic: LPHPC
    Time: Apr 25, 2018 4:00 PM Mountain Time (US and Canada)

    Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android: https://zoom.us/j/810894819

    Or iPhone one-tap :
    US: +14086380968,,810894819# or +16468769923,,810894819#
    Or Telephone:
    Dial(for higher quality, dial a number based on your current location):
    US: +1 408 638 0968 or +1 646 876 9923 or +1 669 900 6833
    Meeting ID: 810 894 819
    International numbers available: https://zoom.us/u/u7HpeiIL

  235. paulie Post author

    ———- Forwarded message ———
    From: Angela Fisher
    Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 7:02 PM
    Subject: Blockchain Committee
    To:

    Hey! Me again. I heard the vote passed to establish this committee.
    I would like to volunteer to serve in this capacity. I didn’t realize we
    should wait for the LNC. I’ve already booked the creators of STEEMIT to
    come to NOLA and they agreed.
    I am also bringing Jeff Tucker. I might that I was the one who asked him to
    officially join the LP.
    I go to the conferences and know the embassies.

    Angela McArdle and Rosa Shores would be very valuable as well.

    Angela Fisher

  236. paulie Post author

    This is a white paper written by Dr Howard Wetsman regarding his plan to use blockchain technology to create solutions to the current problems we all face regarding health care. I am sharing this to help get people out of the paradigm that blockchain tech only deals with problems regarding finances.

    Give it a read. I have a lot of respect for Dr Wetsman in general and I intend to nominate him to serve on the Blockchain Committee.

    https://www.dragonsbaneproject.org/white-paper/2017/8/19/dragons-bane-white-paper-v011

    Daniel Hayes

  237. paulie Post author

    As I discussed at the LNC meeting, I have been working on creating a more
    comprehensive regional agreement. If anyone wants a copy write me
    personally – and I do solicit input. I had been very unhappy that there is
    basically zero expectations from regionals and that this needs to change as
    we grow.


    *In Liberty,*
    *Caryn Ann Harlos*

  238. paulie Post author

    Members of the LNC,

    In the vein of supporting our sitting Libertarian Legislators across the
    country in their bids for reelection, I want to bring to the attention
    of the committee, our two sitting state representatives in New
    Hampshire.

    Campaigns in New Hampshire are not your typical Legislative races we are
    used to across the country, and also not nearly as demanding or cost
    intensive as Senator Ebke’s re-election in Nebraska. Our legislative
    districts are so small, and the voter base so attuned, that it is
    actually crucial that we manage to get in person face time between our
    candidates and their constituents as often as possible, while still
    continuing to utilize traditional campaign strategies such as direct
    mail and local signage. Furthermore, New Hampshire does hold the
    distinction of actually having elected big L Libertarian State
    legislators in the past. In 1992, New Hampshire voters elected 4
    Registered Libertarians in Partisan races to the General Court. Don
    Gorman, Andy Borsa, Finlay Rothhaus, and Calvin Warburton were elected
    as the nation’s first Libertarian Legislative Caucus. In 1994,
    Representative was re-elected, along with a 5th Libertarian
    Representative, Jim McClarin. And in 2000, Representative Steve
    Vaillancourt was elected as a Libertarian to the same body, however
    without any additional members with whom to form a caucus.

    New Hampshire has elected 6 Partisan Libertarian legislators in its
    history, and I aim to work diligently to increase that number to 8 by
    working towards the re-election of Caleb Dyer and Brandon Phinney into
    the House as Registered Libertarians so that The second Libertarian
    Caucus can continue their service for another term.

    To these ends, I am requesting that the LNC contribute the Maximum
    allowable contribution of $1,000 to each Representative Caleb Dyer, and
    Representative Brandon Phinney, in support of their re-election
    campaigns.

    I hereby move, and request co-sponsors, a motion to allocate $1,000 each
    towards the re-election campaigns for Representative Caleb Dyer
    (L-Hillsborough 37) and Representative Brandon Phinney (L-Strafford 24).


    Yours in Liberty,

    Justin O’Donnell
    LNC Region 8 Representative

  239. paulie Post author

    From Alex Merced

    Motion: The formation of an ad-hoc “Outreach Committee”

    Purpose: To identify market segments (issue based, organizations, etc.) that may be open to building a relationship with the party (examples: “homeschoolers”, “Food Truck Operators”). After identifying target segments the committee seeks to identify experts within the party to be assigned as “Outreach Coordinator” to be facilitator for outreach to target segment to create relationships that state affiliates and candidates can take advantage of.

    Structure: The committee will have 7 seats to be filled by 4 Non-Members of the LNC to be appointed by the LNC. There will also be An additional 3 seats that can be filled by LNC members appointed by the LNC. The committee will elect a Chair, Vice Chair, and Secretary. If any member misses two consecutive meetings then the LNC reappoint them or someone else to the now vacant spot at the next meeting the next LNC meeting.

    Job Descriptions:

    Chair: Will run meetings at least once a quarter and give other members at least 14 days notice prior to such meetings. Quorum requires 60% of current committee members to be at the meeting.

    Vice Chair: Will run meetings in absence of the chair.

    Secretary: Maintain minutes of meetings and deliver them to the LNC Secretary no later than 14 days of the meeting. If the minutes are late or not submitted two consecutive meetings a new election of the secretary shall occur.

    Committee Actions: The committee has two main actions it will vote on which require a minimum 60% vote of members attending the meeting.

    – Voting to affirm or rescind a target segment and begin the process of identifying an internal party member segment expert as “Outreach coordinator”

    – Voting to recommend designating or rescinding designation of “outreach Coordinator” of a target segment. If the LNC Chair decides to add this item to their agenda it must pass with a simple majority.

    Outreach Coordinators: Ambassadors must submit reports of their activities to the committee prior to each meeting called by the chair. If they need funds to for any activity they submit a written request detailing amount and use of funds to the LNC which the LNC Chair can at their discretion add to the Agenda.

  240. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    COMMENTS ON LEFT/RIGHT – LET’S FIGHT in GENERALITIES

    Really tired of blanket rejections of individuals based on labels given them, mostly because of loose association, like same FB group. Just describe the specific things specific individual do: a) promoting/supporting state laws and b) hardcore bigotry and then let people make up their own minds.

    I tend to remain more suspicious about the “right” – anti-abortionism and warmongering and “ethno-nationalism” particularly. But not happy with “left” promotion of anti-discrimination laws (especially forced cake baking and males in female spaces) and anti-property/diversity of tactics rhetoric which IS reminiscent of actual left wing violence. Create libertarian rhetoric, please!!!

    Listing 2017 articles about Cantwell/Invictius/Charlottesville and even Ramsey ignores fact LP told them to get lost and many took the hint. However, those who STILL defend them do have to be watched carefully. Mises Institute and Lew Rockwell are another group that seemed to have gone back to libertarianism after the 1980s-80s “populist” phase and then in 2017ish jumped on the alt-right train – and hopefully jumped off quick after Charlottesville. Paid less attention to them since. Obviously the use of Rothbard’s worst years into something aggressively hateful and bigoted is a real downer.

    =============

    “Entryist” and “tankie”. Two new slang words learned today!

    =============
    Anon-Tipper April 23, 2018 at 10:07. I’m more worried about centrists conflating us with authoritarian extremists….

    CM: I agree. Recently was interviewed for a news article and after blasted Hillary, I had to real quick mention involvement in “pro-choice libertarian” and “Libertarians for peace” so he wouldn’t think I was a right wing pro Trumper or paleo “libertarian”.

    =============
    Anon-Tipper April 23, 2018 at 10:14
    …Vohra needs to go for openly inviting white-nationalists to flood into the LP, which no one seemed to care about when they were freaking out about his other comments:
    https://www.facebook.com/arvin.vohra.9/posts/1847114151986736
    (“So white nationalists: let me revise my previous statement. We, the Libertarian Party, no longer have any standards. We let those who violate our bare minimum requirements speak on our behalf. Why not you too?”
    https://www.facebook.com/arvin.vohra.9/posts/1847303758634442
    (Summary: Prefers white nationalists cause they only hate his “look” but don’t force laws on him.)

    Vohra being sarcastic in these two links. Remember veteran Larry Sharp was on veteran Ryan Ramsey’s radio show in 2017 and I’ve never heard Sharp denounce him.

    =============
    Anon-Tipper – April 23, 2018 at 10:19
    Wasn’t Mike Shipley in this thread earlier? I think he has screenshots of Joshua Smith defending the American Guard. It might still be on the facebook page he runs.

    CM: According to Ryan Ramsey the Group had denounced racism…. give us 15 years of good behavior, and maybe we’ll believe it. I remember when League of South said that around 2006-7 and were on good behavior for a while, but come 2017 back to their old ways. Same with Mises/Rockwell. (Of course, I tolerate a lot of nonsense from them because they remain so hard core anti-war.)

    =============
    Caryn Ann Harlos
    April 23, 2018 at 10:03

    …. And as far as LOL, ask Nick, he will tell you we are openly kissing up to the left (i.e. the blue wave strategy). And I have strenuously objected – this is no secret – and I would just as strenuously object to a red wave strategy – I think we need to screw all that and stick to the yellow wave. You have a huge set of blinders on here Paulie and I have no idea why. With your family history and knowledge you know that the ravaging left is just as dangerous and deadly….

    CM: More specifics would help. I’m still complaining they don’t do enough hardcore anti-war stuff and the people writing press releases don’t seem to know much about international issues anyway. The national FB page looks pretty generic libertarian. And Ebke got her money quickly enough.

    =============
    Caryn Ann Harlos
    April 23, 2018 at 14:53
    Paulie I have broad overviews not names- as I am doing research I’ll flesh out. This isn’t an area of deep interest for me (though I think you are wrong about Rothbard).

    CM: Don’t put me on the left side just because I want to purge those who want to make women baby-making slaves or enable those who do. Of course, if more libertarians would consistently call themselves “pro-life/anti-state” instead of just “pro-life” it would ease the fear of many they REALLY are “pro-life/prohibitionist”. I brought this up to Meagan Richard other day and she went all huffy cause I noted that the definition of “pro-life” in dictionaries (and most people’s minds) IS prohibitionist! But she’s like “how dare you suggest how I define myself.” And I’m like “well, how can you expect me to believe you if you aren’t explicit.” (Girl fight talk. 😉

    On the other hand don’t put me on the “right” side because I do think independent communities and cities have a right to decide their own membership and visiting rules. Of course, on national level I’m in favor of more immigration, but not 30-50 million people from one nation moving in, each with a locked cargo container or two of “personal belongings”. Scary… Plus, cut the welfare NOW. (Except maybe a one time restitution payment for people who lost homes/businesses in US bombings. Paid for by selling govt assets, of course.)

    =============
    Anon-Tipper
    April 23, 2018 at 11:06
    I genuinely confused on why we should just accept paleo nonsense as “part of the LP,” I posted a number of links with Hoppe, Tom Woods, Rockwell openly fraternizing with known fascists (they very publicly write for a magazine that supported a Nazi party in Greece ffs!). We shouldn’t be questioning someone who openly dog-whistles to that contingency? The Logo for the Mises Caucus is the same as the LvMI logo! And they’ve been openly friendly towards Ryan Ramsey.

    CM: More details please. Only thing I saw was his wife whining about people criticising her husband on their discussion page, with post being immediately removed.

    =============

    Andy/Anonymous Tipper; RE: Cultural Marxism. See this CM.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School#Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory

    CM: I prefer to use the term “forced eqalitarianism” since that what political correctness is aiming for today, with the ultimate absurdity being claiming one’s gender identity trumps ones biology and those who disagree can get $250,000 fines (in NYC anyway). Your identity gives you same “rights” to equality with/ “privileges” of the opposite sex and that must be enforced by law. It makes more sense for female to male trans, of course, since women can get more respect and job opportunities in the larger world; male to trans only get to dress up and use women’s private spaces for reasons personal or perverse, depending on the individual. And guys who consistently lose at men’s sports stand better chance at women’s sports. (Though a woman won Boston marathon over a couple of trans in the woman’s category this year.)

    =============
    Chuck Moulton wrote:
    *“The most fundamental problem I have with them is they are bald faced liars, ad evidenced by their shenanigans with the Ron Paul convention invitation. I’ve seen zero acknowledgement of contrition from them about that. I do not trust anything known liars say and I have no desire to associate with them — full stop. “

    CM: I agree there on those examples.

    Chuck wrote: Conversely, they attack good libertarians (like Nick Sarwark) when they try to distance us from “blood and soil” white nationalist garbage. It is hard to interpret those actions as anything other than embracing racism and white nationalism.

    CM I did see a lot of that last summer, though it was an ambiguous tweet and a sloppy way to do it.
    =============

    To these ends, I am requesting that the LNC contribute the Maximum
    allowable contribution of $1,000 to each Representative Caleb Dyer, and
    Representative Brandon Phinney, in support of their re-election
    campaigns.
    Justin O’Donnell
    LNC Region 8 Representative

    CM. Good, nothing for Joseph Stallcop, the pro-anti-discrimination law fanatic. After he posted about it on NH website there were so many complaints about his support/vote for the law, they just took down the whole thread. So LP NH not overly infiltrated by liberals! 😉

  241. Anon-Tipper

    Carol:”Vohra being sarcastic in these two links. Remember veteran Larry Sharp was on veteran Ryan Ramsey’s radio show in 2017 and I’ve never heard Sharp denounce him.”

    There’s a moral difference between white-nationalism and public schools that makes this attempt at sarcasm not even get off the ground, it’s a stupid slippery slope type argument. And WNs will absolutely impose horrible laws, so they are not in anyway currently better than people that vote for more school funding; it’s an insane comparison. I’m not really seeing as how this is even a good attempt at a joke, it’s just so dumb.

    Sharpe had also come out against Sarwark telling white-nationalists to leave the party, I’m not a fan, I think he’s trying to be friends with everyone (and maybe convince people to give up their WN views) which is not something I would ever feel okay with, WNs should absolutely be discouraged from joining. (https://reason.com/blog/2018/01/14/selling-freedom-new-at-reason)

    Carol: “According to Ryan Ramsey the Group had denounced racism…. give us 15 years of good behavior, and maybe we’ll believe it. I remember when League of South said that around 2006-7 and were on good behavior for a while, but come 2017 back to their old ways. Same with Mises/Rockwell. (Of course, I tolerate a lot of nonsense from them because they remain so hard core anti-war.)”

    Well, the American Guard already broke that when they went to the Unite the Right rally. So I guess we have till about 2032?

    Carol: “More details please. Only thing I saw was his wife whining about people criticising her husband on their discussion page, with post being immediately removed.”

    My phrasing was all messed up (which I frequently do lol). I mean the whole paleo associated people seeming to be fine with Ramsey, not just the Mises Caucus people (Joshua Smith taking pictures with him and defending the American Guard).

    It seems that Ramsey is in support of the Mises Caucus (https://www.facebook.com/RamseyForFloridaHouse/posts/288617041647783) and supports Joshua Smith for chair like the Mises Caucus (and the rest of the candidates that they support).

    There’s a screenshot of Brandi belonging to their group and Joshua’s comments on Ramsey and the AG.(https://www.facebook.com/LibertarianAntiFascistCommittee/photos/pcb.527679514292946/527687870958777/?type=3&theater) (It’s in the screenshots at the bottom of this post)

    Carol: “Good, nothing for Joseph Stallcop”

    He’s not running again because he’s going away for college is what I’ve heard.

  242. dL

    anti-property/diversity of tactics

    Internationally, “libertarian” generally refers to the anti-property variety. That’s what the word originally meant.

    ease the fear of many they REALLY are “pro-life/prohibitionist”

    It’d actually pro compulsory parenthood, given that the obligation/duty is not merely to bring a pregnancy to term but to also assume the responsibilities of parenthood for the next 18 or so years under threat of a heavy gun.

    but not 30-50 million people from one nation moving in, each with a locked cargo container or two of “personal belongings”. Scary

    That type of mass displacement is from refugee flows, not immigration. If you don’t want to bear the burden of mass refugee flows, stop the war mongering.

  243. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Anon-Tipper April 24, 2018 at 14:15. Wrote various details of interest. Too bad “libertarian antifascist” didn’t include readable screenshots.

    Because of personal experience with anonymous lefty expose artists making up stuff, I prefer to read my exposes from people who share their real names in their FB groups.

  244. Caryn Ann Harlos

    Very familiar with that article Mr. Hmm. Just as I am with how often minutes are disputed.

    What is interesting with that article is that Rothbard did not come up with that out of the blue. The LP was already a breeding ground for the nascent idea coming out of the YAF split.

  245. Caryn Ann Harlos

    ==The “blockchain committee” is seriously the dumbest idea to come out of the LNC in a while, and that’s saying something.==

    Well aren’t you anonymously full of yourself sparky? #sobrave

  246. Anon-Tipper

    Carol: idk, they’re pretty clear on my computer. I would just send a message to the facebook page, they’re an LP member.

  247. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Caryn Ann Harlos April 25, 2018 at 04:33 wrote:
    ==males in female spaces===
    #terf

    Hmmm, I thought Caryn Ann had a sensible libertarian approach on this issue. People have a right to think they are whoever they think they are as long as they don’t use force or fraud against others.

    Force certainly includes using phrases like #terf (“Trans exclusionary radical feminist “). Leftwing Trans ANTIFA types use that term, usually in sentences like “die TERF die” shared on social media. Or screaming it when they block women from entering meetings and discussions or trying to scream them to silence on the stage should the event NOT be shut down. (I’ve lots of video examples to share over last few years.) I thought Caryn Ann didn’t like ANTIFA? (Antifacism fine; ANTIFA movement is itself fascistic when it threatens or uses violence to silence anyone who doesn’t buy into their anti-capitalist etc rhetoric.)

    TERF is a way of shutting down free speech because it scares a lot of women who know it is step one to physical attack. In the San Francisco Library right now they have a display of colored bats (and a barbed wired covered one) that radical transgenders carry around in SF to show what they will do to “Terfs” who don’t keep their mouths shut. SF is a sick city! Do an image search of San Francisco library and Degenderette

    Such threats definitely fit within threats of initiation of force.

    I mean trans activists won’t even let professors discuss biological differences as in this recent US video just saw today.
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/1284834181614027/permalink/1608649439232498/

    Here’s a quick overview of the abuse British women face just saw today:
    http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/fraser-myers-trans-intolerance-mumsnet/21328#.WuC4q5ch3BV

    I get multiple news alerts on the topic of transgender and feminism everyday. I have at least 1000 horror stories saved over the last 3-4 years. Somebody should do a database.

    I’m sure at least 2/3 of libertarian women who don’t want any male (including convicted sex offenders!) who merely claim to be “a woman” having access to women’s restrooms, locker rooms, homeless shelters – or jobs as operators on rape hotlines used almost exclusively by women? Same for teenage boys who claim to be girls sharing their locker rooms.

    Do you call #terf any (honest) Christian anti-abortion clinic that doesn’t want an obvious man in a dress counseling women who seek alternatives to abortion?

    When a nasty #terf screaming allegedly “cisgender” woman on one group asked if the LP Convention was going to have “pronoun labels” included in the office convention badge, I asked at LP 2018 delegate page. Most responders thought: Just let people write what they want was the general opinion. Someone offered to have them available at Outright table, another good idea.

    Hope the LP convention isn’t being too #TERFY!!

    One guy in that discussion shared this rather amusing cartoon video. https://youtu.be/uUjfztkz7lE

    Anyway, if I misunderstood your reference to #terf, do tell…

  248. paulie Post author

    The LP was already a breeding ground for the nascent idea coming out of the YAF split.

    I’m interested in the evidence for this. Who in the LP was exhibiting these views before the mid 1980s?

  249. paulie Post author

    ==The “blockchain committee” is seriously the dumbest idea to come out of the LNC in a while, and that’s saying something.==

    Well aren’t you anonymously full of yourself sparky? #sobrave

    I don’t care that the individual who posted did so anonymously. There are plenty of reasons to post anonymously, some legitimate and some not so much. I do care as to why he or she thinks it’s a dumb idea and did not get a reply.

  250. paulie Post author

    A historical document for our “Historical Preservation Committee” chair to familiarize herself with:

    Why are you putting the committee name in quotes?

  251. Caryn Ann Harlos

    That goes to the “not so much” portion Paulie.

    Yes there are good reasons to be anonymous. To take cowardly passive snips isn’t one of them. When I take a swipe, I do it openly or don’t do it at all.

    #sobrave

  252. Caryn Ann Harlos

    ===I’m interested in the evidence for this. Who in the LP was exhibiting these views before the mid 1980s?===

    Got none that I took care to note. Not and not likely to be a particular interest rate. I wish we would stop the lifting of skirts to the left and right and just be libertarian which will attract more than pandering ever will.

  253. Hmm.

    lol @ huffing and puffing against anonymity on the Internet in the context of Libertarian outreach to blockchain enthusiasts. A nice, compact demonstration of the futility of the LNC pretending to have a clue about this stuff as if it’s a tech company and not a political nonprofit.

    To answer paulie’s question: there’s just nothing to consider or do here that merits creating yet another LNC subcommittee. That this was being pushed by the Hoppeans as something to brag about is another point against it, but the party just doesn’t need a committee to decide bitcoin is cool and we like it. It’s slapping another committee over a bunch of stuff that is (or should be) already somebody else’s job: marketing, development, bylaws, legal counsel, and the like. Plus, it was literally creating a committee to figure out whether or not to create a committee!

    Regarding the use of quotes: you’ve put more thought into asking about it than I did doing it. I suppose you could take it as sarcastic; insofar as I’d expect somebody with such a title to have a greater awareness of these things than indicated by a comment like: “”Oh yeah that’s right, he has the heresy of being more “paleo” – sorry that is a part of the LP and has always been.””

    Particularly in a candidate for a senior party leadership, what exactly is meant by ‘paleo’ and the history it invokes is something important to be aware of, which I think you’d agree on paulie. Especially if one is going to choose to defend it as an inherent and unquestionable part of the LP, backdated to its founding no less. Sometimes it’s just worth the reminder of exactly what noxious brew Rockwell and Rothbard cooked up under that label, and so what people in the party are talking about when we refer to it and its adherents.

    sincerely,
    Anonymous Coward On The Internet

  254. Caryn Ann Harlos

    Oh dear I have an opinion that Brave Sir Robin didn’t like.

    The desire to latch unto populist movements is what is meant. Rothbard didn’t come up with that in the 80s and prior to doing it with the right he did it with the left.

    Today it simply has become the Libertarian version of “racist” to shut down conversation.

    The current targets have done NOTHING like the noxious brew referenced- it is vacuous character attacks now on people who happen to be socially conservative.

    Nice way to yank it all out of context – surely the master of sarcastic quote marks will note I put it in quotes as well? I put it in quotes because the alleged “paleo” crimes of Heise and Smith are views that were present in the founding, daresay in David Nolan himself in some places, because……

    …..ALL THEY ARE IS RIGHT LIBERTARIANS. And yes right Libertarians existed since the beginning with the founders primarily coming out of the right.

    Most of this thread is a hatchet job using a very a distinct disastrous strategy grounded in a very specific historical context to smear people outside of that context.

    I- personally- am not a fan of right libertarianism. Nor of left libertarianism. They are both distractions.

    And Sir Robin, you do realize that the historical committee is an archivist committee – it makes no claim or requirement to be the font of all party knowledge, and certainly not the chair, which is merely the manager. The most illuminating thing to come out of this exchange, and why the anonymity is objectionable, is your extreme cattiness. You are talking smack about a lot of people— your life is not in danger I presume — I believe in the principle of people being able to know their accusers. The decision of the LNC had a very good reason – one which you didn’t even try to refute – made by a whole group of people — that you just summarily dismissed with a wave of your mellicifent hand.

    Now if you notice Sir Robin, that I have never said a thing about “Anon-Tipper”‘s lack of identity. Why? because they don’t use it to lob catty attacks.

    I don’t respect anonymous trolls and neither should anyone else.

  255. Caryn Ann Harlos

    If you want to see an example of a noxious left brew of the same thing take a gander at the blind eye turned to violent actors under the guise of “diversity of tactics.”

    Same old thing. Different pole.

  256. Andy

    “Caryn Ann Harlos
    April 26, 2018 at 05:48
    Oh dear I have an opinion that Brave Sir Robin didn’t like.”

    Who is Sir Robin?

    “The desire to latch unto populist movements is what is meant. Rothbard didn’t come up with that in the 80s and prior to doing it with the right he did it with the left.”

    Yes, Rothbard engaged in different strategies throughout his life. Notice how the same people who attack anything on the right, or perceived to be leaning to the right, have no problems with the left, or with violent Antifa commies?

    “Today it simply has become the Libertarian version of ‘racist’ to shut down conversation.”

    This is a typical leftist tactic to shout negative sounding buzzwords in order to shut down discussion, and like Stefan Molyneux is fond of saying, that’s not an argument.

    “The current targets have done NOTHING like the noxious brew referenced- it is vacuous character attacks now on people who happen to be socially conservative.

    Nice way to yank it all out of context – surely the master of sarcastic quote marks will note I put it in quotes as well? I put it in quotes because the alleged ‘paleo’ crimes of Heise and Smith are views that were present in the founding, daresay in David Nolan himself in some places, because……”

    I do not know Josh Smith, but I have met Micheal Heise, and he’s not as conservative as some people are making him out to be.

    “Now if you notice Sir Robin, that I have never said a thing about ‘Anon-Tipper’‘s lack of identity. Why? because they don’t use it to lob catty attacks.”

    “Anon-Tipper” strikes me as catty,

    “I don’t respect anonymous trolls and neither should anyone else.”

    I agree.

  257. Hmm.

    Oh no! I don’t have Caryn Ann’s respect! She thinks I’m catty! Egads, my wounded ego! (It’s “maleficent,” by the way. I’ll leave it to the imagination to guess what gesture my waving hand is now making.)

    More substantively: she’s dead wrong in trying to whitewash the “Mises” Caucus and the history of paleo-ism which it represents. They still promote Hoppe the exterminationist. They still promote Molyneux, the openly racist white-nationalist. They still embrace and promote “Blood and Soil” Deist. They promote Rockwell and the rest of his gang. Just scroll through their twitter feed and it’s like a who’s who of the paleolib/alt-right nexus.

    To pretend there’s no connection here back to Rothbard’s late-career embrace of the racist (or if you prefer, “populist”) far-right is just not true and it’s a pretty silly argument to make. (And it’s
    outright shameful to slander David Nolan by claiming he was somehow aligned with them, at a time before they even existed!) That is the strain of the movement they represent, both ideologically and in their choice of associations. I mean come on: the whole reason they got started is because they were pissed Tom Woods got called out for exactly this history, and (among other things) his long-time role as a founding patron of a group that marched in C’ville with the other alt-right goons.

    White-knighting these people to pander for their votes is horribly unprincipled. I’ll take actual radical libertarians any day, over rolling out the red-carpet for some watered-down version of David Duke and Pat Buchanan. Particularly coming from somebody who is quick to turn around and proclaim others in the party don’t meet her litmus test for ideological purity.

    And if you really want to talk cowardly: how about misappropriating the name of an honorable, long-dead man to push ideas that he vehemently disagreed with? Another tactic, of course, they picked up as part of their open emulation of Rockwell et al., and the similarly misnamed Institute.

    Since they pretty effectively killed any chance they had at Chair with the Ron Paul BS, I guess we now know who the “Mises”-aligned candidate for an officer seat in New Orleans is. Good to know.

  258. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Caryn Ann Harlos – April 26, 2018 at 05:48 wrote: “I don’t respect anonymous trolls and neither should anyone else.”

    CM: I agree here. There are legit reasons for being anonymous, but doing it just so you can lie about and harass others is not one of them. Doing your own lied fill “exposes” without identifying who you are is a problem. Anonymous people posting only accurate material from reliable sites is different. Some may call me a troll from time to time, but at least I’m not an anonymous one and tend to defend my alleged trolling ad nauseam. (OK, sometimes I drink too much coffee and over do it.)

    Ms. Harlos also wrote: April 26, 2018 at 05:55
    “If you want to see an example of a noxious left brew of the same thing take a gander at the blind eye turned to violent actors under the guise of “diversity of tactics.”

    CM: Having written a ebook on the rise of that movement in “progressive circles” in year 2000, agree with this one too. http://carolmoore.net/sfm (Return of Street Fighting Man).

    I hope after my yesterdays post on her writing #terf (Trans Exclusionary radical feminists), Ms. Harlos recognizes that #terf is a phrase largely used by transactivists committed to “diversity of tactics” – which in their dreams means taking baseball bats and axes to “TERFs.” (Of course WE call ourselves GENDER CRITICAL FEMINISTS because we want to get rid of sex stereotypes, not convince people to try to change their sex depending on what stereotypes they fit into.)

    Go to twitter and search @SFLibrary and see all the protest against its exhibition of just bloody transgender violence against “TERF”. (The library DID take down the bloody TERF tshirts but kept weapons of violence.)

    Here’s one of many tweets that show the library “art” displays. People are calling for firing of whoever approved this. So did I. https://twitter.com/PurpleBarnacle/status/989066512119066624

    Ms. Harlos must realize that at least once in the past SHE publicly criticized the males in the women’s room idea and I’ve got the screen shot. So she is a TERF. Trans activists won’t forgive her for even on transgression = unless may she left her husband to marry a trans and quit the LP and become a high profile pro-trans activists.

    Don’t worry, I’m not going to look through my massive files for your one TERFY comment. I myself, of course, have dozens of examples of gender critical writing all over the internet.

    Totally excellent radical female, and proud. CM

    PS: Trans activists and the “incels” have a lot in common. Can’t get much sex and want to violently attack women. Incel meaning “involuntary celibate” males. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_celibacy

  259. Caryn Ann Harlos

    Dear Sir Robin:

    ===More substantively: she’s dead wrong in trying to whitewash the “Mises” Caucus and the history of paleo-ism which it represents. They still promote Hoppe the exterminationist. They still promote Molyneux, the openly racist white-nationalist. They still embrace and promote “Blood and Soil” Deist. They promote Rockwell and the rest of his gang. Just scroll through their twitter feed and it’s like a who’s who of the paleolib/alt-right nexus.===

    I don’t read twitter. I do read their Facebook group. I am friends with Heise and Smith, and in their Facebook group and in with those two people THAT IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE. If that is going on in their twitter feed,, they need to clean that house like I saw them do in the Facebook group personally. They threw out all of that type including Liberty Hangout.

    ===To pretend there’s no connection here back to Rothbard’s late-career embrace of the racist (or if you prefer, “populist”) far-right is just not true and it’s a pretty silly argument to make. (And it’s
    outright shameful to slander David Nolan by claiming he was somehow aligned with them, at a time before they even existed!)===

    It is shameful to say that is what I did, and you know that is not. Heise and Smith are not doing that and yet they accused of it. I point out that paleo has now become the smear de jeer (hahah auto correct made it punnier) for what is just basically right libertarianism. I then point out that if they are paleo, so were many in the early party. Maybe now you will stop misrepresenting my point? No, I doubt it. But at least others will see it.

    == That is the strain of the movement they represent, both ideologically and in their choice of associations. I mean come on: the whole reason they got started is because they were pissed Tom Woods got called out for exactly this history, and (among other things) his long-time role as a founding patron of a group that marched in C’ville with the other alt-right goons.==

    That is also false. Go do a hashtag search for #misescaucus and you will see they were forming months before that happened. Do you do any research at all? They already had a launch day and it happened to be that same time period. Are paleos known to be invested with crystal balls now?

    ==White-knighting these people to pander for their votes is horribly unprincipled. I’ll take actual radical libertarians any day, over rolling out the red-carpet for some watered-down version of David Duke and Pat Buchanan. Particularly coming from somebody who is quick to turn around and proclaim others in the party don’t meet her litmus test for ideological purity.===

    Since they are not doing that, and neither am I. Why are you lying? There is a smaller and smaller crowd now that will ever buy that litmus test bullshit – keep saying it and look the fool. Is that why I hurt your butt so much? I refuse to be your caricatures. Or anyone else’s.

    ==And if you really want to talk cowardly: how about misappropriating the name of an honorable, long-dead man to push ideas that he vehemently disagreed with? Another tactic, of course, they picked up as part of their open emulation of Rockwell et al., and the similarly misnamed Institute.===

    Take that up with them. I think the idea of cultural appropriation and its ilk is bullshit so I will not get my knickers in a wad over something so petty.

    ==Since they pretty effectively killed any chance they had at Chair with the Ron Paul BS, I guess we now know who the “Mises”-aligned candidate for an officer seat in New Orleans is. Good to know.===

    Smear smear smear. I am not a member, do not wish any caucus endorsement, and am interested in simply not seeing people treated like shit. And yes dramas they have been involved with in the past have been bullshit. I chalk it up to misbegotten exuberance and “cage stage” syndrome. It’s called being charitable. And I must be a master of psychological manipulation or schroedinger’s white knight since I seem to be able to criticize them when they are wrong, and defend them when they are being grossly maligned. Fancy that! The world is much more like Game of Thrones than most want to admit – people are good at times, bad at times – this idea of utter villain and utter saint do not exist in reality. Funny that a radical is the one pointing out that the world isn’t black and white and that nuance and fairness and flexibility (daresay compromise) are necessary to work together. You – contrary-wise – are quite the inflexible dogmatist. Funny that.

    You are also showing a deeply personal mean streak and are acting like a petulant pre-teen- good to know. So if you start that, you are lying as well. Many in the Mises group dislike me for my support of Nick (not to mention my no-particular-orderism and radical open borders position). I don’t care. Fairness isn’t a popularity contest.

    I agree with and disagree with many people. I don’t buy this factional toe the line bullshit that you are selling. That is far more poisonous to the Party than a couple of young men who are a bit too full of piss and vinegar and need to learn to settle down. I will take that over biting mean vindictiveness any day.

  260. Caryn Ann Harlos

    So Ms. Moore admits she is a TERF just objects to the name. A rose by any other name.

    I am not involved in that community and the term is neutral to me and one that everyone knows.

    I will give her credit that unlike Brave Sir Robin she does say her views openly.

    It is so easy to be rude and lying under no identity at all, not even a consistent psuedonym. I have no respect for that at all, and neither should anyone else. And Libertarians should reject that kind of social bullying with no accountability. Our ideas do not work without social accountability. You can be the biggest jerk on the planet under the cover of “Hmmm” and then turn around and be The Respectable Libertarian afterwards and no one is the wiser. I could come on here under “Errrr” and do that too. Mature adults in a serious political party shouldn’t resort to that.

  261. Jill Pyeatt

    Not that anyone asked my opinion, but–

    I’m sure at least 2/3 of libertarian women who don’t want any male (including convicted sex offenders!) who merely claim to be “a woman” having access to women’s restrooms, locker rooms, homeless shelters – or jobs as operators on rape hotlines used almost exclusively by women? Same for teenage boys who claim to be girls sharing their locker rooms.

    Count me as one of the 1/3 of Libertarian women who doesn’t care who is in the bathroom as long as they’re clean and mind their own business.

    And even though most people probably associate me as a “right Libertarian” mainly because I call out those on the Left who insist on being hateful and intolerant, I will most likely leave the party if Weld becomes our Presidential nominee in 2020. His association with the CFR is very scary to me, and he hasn’t, at least not yet, denounced our endless empire-building wars, including our country’s shameful proclivity to murder-by-drone.

  262. Jill Pyeatt

    I’m really glad I read this thread, though, because I’ve learned two new words today: terf (I’m not one) and incel (definitely not one of those, either.)

  263. Chuck Moulton

    “terf” is new to me.

    I’ve heard “incel” a lot. It’s a pretty obnoxious term. Literally “incel” means “involuntary celibate”, but in popular culture it is usually associated with misogyny and hate speech. This causes any of us who can’t find a romantic partner to be labeled “incels” and grouped with those who are hateful even when we are not. So not only are we miserable and alone, but also social pariahs.

  264. Caryn Ann Harlos

    Yes thank to nuts like Elliot Rogers that has come to have that connotation in popular culture when it is not in fact the case. Ms. Moore merely perpetrates that. And she is incorrect, people in that situation are not only men but many women who face a different set of challenges since culture says any woman can find a sexual partner so that they must be super-duper-triple-terrible if they can’t.

    Bullying people is no bueno. Its no different than when we were children. Look X is different in some way, let’s brutally pick at that sore spot.

  265. Caryn Ann Harlos

    Perhaps I am just familiar with TERF as I read and watch a lot on trans and GSM issues.

    The thing with terfs isn’t just the ostracization and vilification of transwomen, it is that such vilification comes from a place of vilifying maleness which they think transwomen still have. It’s toxic. And Carol’s comment about no they just want to destroy gender roles so that “men don’t have to dress like women” completely trivializes the struggles of trans people to something completely superficial.

    Body dysmorphia is BODY dysmorphia not CLOTHING dysmorphia.

  266. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    In my sexually active days, I myself always was attracted to guys in colorful clothing and even make up. (Lots of that in the 1970-80s.) Which is why as a young bisexual I was in LGB groups (before the T was added) and had transvestite boyfriends. I’ve lived with a transgender for 22 years. So I’m certainly a lot more educated in these issues than Ms. Harlos.

    I think it’s sad that Ms. Harlos has so little respect for other women she wants to condemn them for abortions and insult them for rejecting an ideology that goes against scientific reality and attempts to erase women and their concerns as mere “cisgender privilege.”

    Since she doesn’t express a problem with trans activist ANTIFA type violence, she evidently doesn’t have a problem with trans activists and school boards and governments bullying parents into letting their young children begin the “transition” process. Big pharma stands to make billions as these childrens do powerful drugs that suppress their natural muturation until they are old enough to be given drugs – for life – that will change their outerly physical appearance. In UK and even US they’ve even taken a couple of very young children away from parents for refusing to let them begin to “transition.” And for young children, what ideologues decide is “dysmorphia” really often IS about the right to wear clothes and engage in activities stereotypically “assigned” to the opposite sex. It’s called experimenting and exploring, something children naturally do.

    Ms. Harlos misquotes me about men in dresses, since I wrote: “Do you call #terf any (honest) Christian anti-abortion clinic that doesn’t want an obvious man in a dress counseling women who seek alternatives to abortion?” So since she didn’t object to that scenario, we can tell the pro-life groups she doesn’t have a problem with it?

    The ones I’ve been involved with have been mostly libertarians who don’t want to insult or threaten people who disagree with a complicated ideology, one which increasingly rejects biological science. Nor do these libertarians want to pass laws forcing people to use their desired pronouns and associate with them in private activities. (Companies can get $250,000 fines in NYC if they let employees mis-pronoun someone!) I’ve described just the most recent incidents of ANTIFA types shutting down women’s event and preventing free discussion and speech through threatened and actual violence. (A trans who attacked a woman as they and their friends shut down a woman’s forum recently was convicted in UK.)

    Something else that is happening is that male to female trans activists actually want words for women’s bodies erased from the English language because they are not “inclusive” of transgenders. So they have worked to have the words breast, breast feeding, vagina, uterus, abortion, pregnancy, etc. erased from the English language. And in the UK they actual have succeeded. In the US some abortion clinics have become women’s clinics and some women’s clinics have become merely health clinics. Ask libertarian midwives about the havoc they have raised in their networks and associations.

  267. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Regarding the label “Incel”, I just heard of it for first time yesterday and thus shared the Wikipedia article. I got the impression they call themselves that on reddit (or did til their reddit groups got shut down).

    “Incel” doesn’t sound like a phrase I would label someone who objected to it. Just like I wouldn’t label someone a TERF when they consider themselves “gender critical” or use “Jew” as an adjective, which clearly is a slur, when “Jewish” is the appropriate adjective. I try not to call someone a prohibitionist who refuses to say definitively whether or not they are one. Howeer, dictionary meanings of “pro-life” do emphasize the opposition to abortion “choice”.

  268. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Here’s a rather impassioned comment from a libertarian woman who left the USSR on the topic which she wrote on my FB page, carolmoore1776. QUOTE:

    Surely, “live and let live” is the most libertarian thing to do. If it were only leaving transpeople alone and honoring their choices! If only!

    But it’s not. It is not.

    There’s so much coercion on the part of trans-activists to make sure that everyone adheres to the compulsory belief that “transwomen are women” – or at least pretend that they do.

    A woman’s library is opened in Vancouver, Canada. Transactivists show up and commit acts of hoooliganism – because the library has some books that might lead readers to question “transwomen are women” dogma, and this is not to be tolerated.

    Who, exactly, is adhering to “live and let live principle”?

    A homeless biological male, who had been kicked out from co-ed shelter for fighting, shows up in a women’s shelter (where most women are victims of male violence) and demands entry. When he is refused, he files a complaint.

    Who is not following the Non-Aggression Principle here?

    A man in England, who is in prison for raping two young girls, gets a surgery AT THE TAXPAYERS EXPENSE to look like a woman, and is transferred to women’s prison. Some women inmates are so distressed by this that they threaten self-harm – but nobody cares.

    Is this how Non-Aggression Principle is supposed to work?

    A recent case: a woman in England has been questioned by the police, and told she is not allowed to live the country while they are investigating and deciding whether to press criminal changes, because something she said on Twitter was deemed “transphobic”.

    What?

    [I can provide links to back it all up should somebody question what I said].

    This is just a small sample of the acts of coercion against people who committed a horrible thought-crime: they do not believe that transwomen are really women.

    This is an assault on my right to think. An assault to perceive the reality through my own senses and to form meaningful concepts.

    Not even Orwell could have imagined this. This is what I left USSR for?

    If saying this means I’m a TERF, I’ll make the most of it.

    END QUOTE

  269. Caryn Ann Harlos

    IOW you are a TERF. You just think it is justified. Fair enough. You are entitled to your opinions.

    I don’t think the issue is nearly as simple as you propound (or that of the radical transactivists who I disagree with as well). You are a reactionary to other reactionaries.

  270. Caryn Ann Harlos

    You did more than share the word “intel” you defined it in a very inflammatory way.

    Many incels do use that term in support communities but certainly not to brand themselves as haters.

    On Reddit it is often used to make fun of people.

    I would say that the assholes who are misogynistic creeps are not incels because they are quite voluntarily celibate – if they weren’t such awful people, it might help.

    There are other folks who truly should not be alone that are. It is the hard nasty truth of social structures that can ostracize and isolate good people

  271. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Ms. Harlos sure knows how to make something out of nothing. Evidently there ARE guys who called themselves INCELS who ARE violent, as recent news reports and the wikipedia article explains. Just like some -not all – trans activists are violent. But I guess she’s getting frustrated.

    What I wrote above:

    PS: Trans activists and the “incels” have a lot in common. Can’t get much sex and want to violently attack women. Incel meaning “involuntary celibate” males. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_celibacy

  272. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    The good news is hundreds of women are protesting the San Francisco library exhibit at their FB page, which led to them taking down the bloody TERF tshirt anyway. All proud gender critical woman – or at least they became so after seeing that display and understanding it was all about shutting up women who only want to be free of oppression.

    https://www.facebook.com/sfpl.org/photos/pb.25446770608.-2207520000.1524849677./10156057241830609/?type=3&theater

  273. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    More on the ANTIFA links, violence of some high profile trans activists, and the prejudice of British courts. (Coming soon to US courts?)

    Quote from one of the many mainstream and other articles about the transgender “Tara Wolf” who was prosecuted for and convicted of attacking a feminist “Maria MacLaughlin” at a gathering he and his ANTIFA buddies were trying to shut down. He had written in advance on Facebook that he wished to “fuck up some TERFs”:

    http://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/04/27/trans-identified-male-tara-wolf-charged-assault-hyde-park-attack/
    “Two dozen individuals — mostly men with masks on, some in full combat gear — accompanied Wolf to court. Many were wearing the all black uniform of Antifa, replete with bandanas and sunglasses. Most were recognized by a member of our group as belonging to Class War, an anarchist organization that Wolf is also a member of…Three of Wolf’s supporters brought fighting dogs (Dobermans and Mastiffs), as well as a huge sound system blaring death metal. Half stayed outside the court, half came in. The machismo of it all was palpable.”

    If you read whole article it’s filled with false accusations like the 61 year old woman MacLachlan picked up a guy and threw him down, as well as denials that the trans activists hit anyone, despite video of them pushing her to ground and attacking her. Also “Afterwards, we were ordered by police to stay inside the court due to the danger posed by the trans activists outside, almost all of whom were members of Class War. ..As we walked up the hill to the Wetherspoons pub, a police van containing 10 police officers pulled up alongside the two lesbian feminists leading our group. The Class War activists had apparently gone to the pub, spotted these women walking up the hill, and called the police.” (CM: false snitch accusations much?)

    “…Later that night the guilty defendant “posted a comment on Facebook saying that MacLachlan was “a man,” so therefore Wolf’s violence was “actually misandry.” Later that night he changed his Facebook name to “Tara The TERF Slayer.”

    From another publication: https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-mail/20180414/282681867841954
    The attack cost the complainant 4000 pounds in medical expenses but the judge refused to award her any compensation because she was annoyed the judge insisted she call the defendant “he”. (If the defendant had raped her would the judge ALSO insist the victim call him “she”??) The judge did impose a 430 pound fine and costs on the convicted individual.

  274. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    It’s some transgender activists USING black bloc/ANTIFA strategies who most prominently use the phrase Ms. Harlso used #TERF. And Ms. Harlos has chosen to use one of their tactics – labeling women as people who should be beat up. (How many guys have been called terf? I’ve read hundreds of articles on this topic and only can think of one guy who was called terf.)

    IMAGINE there was a leftie-pro-choice ANTIFA group that used the phrase FAKE-LIFE-IES and went around shutting down pro-life events, saying “Die, Fake-lifey, die” and wore bloody tshirts with FAKE-LIFEY on it while carrying baseball bats. (And frankly such an ANTIFA group could arise when govt shuts down enough abortion clinics or abortion itself.)

    How would Ms. Harlos feel if I called here a “FAKE-LIFEY”??? Would she scream “CAROL MOORE THREATENED ME WITH VIOLENCE?” I think she would.

    Should I now go to LNC complaining an LNC member threatened me with violence?

    And maybe add all Ms Harlos false accusations of harassment (people have sent me screen shots of) because I criticized/made fun of to her (hopefully PAST) means of promoting herself – i.e., by talking about her boobs (I have the personal page screenshot 2016) and promoting the LP and herself in low cut blouses. And then boasting on a late 2016 radio show focusing on her “boobs” controversy that she “uses what she’s got” to succeed. Maybe I should break down and put the saved screenshots and audio on my blog.

    Since my website is still stuck in 2014 broken HTML mode and haven’t put it into wordpress, Ican’t give Ms. Harlos a whole section like I’ve done for other questionable characters like Wayne Root.

    If she’s going to stoop to ANTIFA tactics while falsely accusing others in other caucuses of using them, shouldn’t she be outed for it?

    But I have SO MUCH MORE important things to do… sigh. So I’ll continue to procrastinate on doing a comprehensive expose.

  275. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    OOPS, forgot relevant quote from above:

    Apart from anything, Jack the Ripper, who would now be the toast of angry celibates, had the disembowelling idea 130 years ago. And further demonstrating that misogynistic tropes are by no means the monopoly of resentful male virgins, curators at San Francisco library are currently staging an exhibition featuring a display of dissident-silencing weaponry (axes and bats) and other hate-advertising artefacts.

    Photographs of one vitrine, featuring a red bespattered T-shirt reading: “I punch terfs!” (trans-exclusionary radical feminists/women who disagree with me), may have struck a chord with anyone following the current UK debate about the government’s self-ID proposals. To date, threats, from one side, which echo, inescapably, some of those in the pro-Rodger playbook (“die in a fire terf scum”) have yet to generate comparably widespread concern, even after a woman was punched. Her assailant had earlier expressed the wish to “fuck up some terfs”.
    end quote

    Here’s the link to the SF Library event which has hundreds of women objecting to the library promoting violence vs women. The did at least take down the bloody TERF t-shirt.
    https://www.facebook.com/sfpl.org/photos/a.89015335608.111511.25446770608/10156057241830609/?type=3&theater

  276. paulie Post author

    I point out that paleo has now become the smear de jeer (hahah auto correct made it punnier) for what is just basically right libertarianism.

    It’s not just right-libertarianism and it’s nothing like what David Nolan or anyone else that I know of in the LP advocated in the 1970s.

  277. paulie Post author

    Notice how the same people who attack anything on the right, or perceived to be leaning to the right, have no problems with the left, or with violent Antifa commies?

    That’s a lie and you know it.

  278. paulie Post author

    and like Stefan Molyneux is fond of saying, that’s not an argument.

    Molyneux’s racist trash is itself not an argument. He should be shunned.

  279. paulie Post author

    If you want to see an example of a noxious left brew of the same thing take a gander at the blind eye turned to violent actors under the guise of “diversity of tactics.”

    Not nearly as many defenders of that describing themselves or being described by others as libertarian.

  280. paulie Post author

    It’s slapping another committee over a bunch of stuff that is (or should be) already somebody else’s job: marketing, development, bylaws, legal counsel, and the like.

    It may be someone’s job but those people may have very little time to devote to blockchain and/or know very little about it. There’s nothing wrong with letting volunteers who know more about a given subject and have the time to devote to it come up with recommendations for LNC.

  281. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    paulie Post author – April 29, 2018 at 19:42: Antifa are violent thugs. Some, not all.

    CM: the problem with ANY movement is that when even a small part starts initiating violence (and even legitimate self defense!), unless the rest of the movement strenuously denounces it publicly, that movement will be seen by most people as all a bunch of violent thugs. That would have been true if Gandhi had not denounced anyone who engaged in initiation of force in the name of Gandhianism. (Note: He did say that one should not give up guns in case of need of real self-defense. But I don’t know of any incidents where it happened and he condoned it.)

    So while the Anti-Fascism movement may not be tarnished as much the “ANTIFA” movement, the latter certainly has a bad rep among most politically aware people of all persuasion, including a lot of lefties. Transexuals/transvestites had lots of sympathy among feminists and others until it turned into an aggressive “transgender” movement whose slogan seems to so many to be “die terf die”. Involuntarily celibate males who choose to call themselves “incel” actually definite themselves in part by promoting violence towards men and women getting more sex than themselves. And now with the third mass murder, people know all about it.

    This of course is true of a lot of movements through history and now. And it’s particularly true in libertarian party movement where a lot of people tend moderate or relatively conservative and don’t like violence and take very seriously the idea of taking power through a political party to change things.

    So it seems silly to say “yes they” – “are no they aren’t” – over and over again.

  282. paulie Post author

    So violent people give all sorts of movements a bad name, and anything and everything can be an excuse for violence and power trips. Whoduthunkit.

  283. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Paulie: The point is Ms. Harlos makes a big friggin deal over some things said by people in a couple caucuses which are not half as bad as what ANTIFA actually does.

    Meanwhile she freely uses a term best known to pair with the word DIE and acts as if that’s perfectly fine.

    Sorry if the hypocrisy point got lost in the above.

  284. Caryn Ann Harlos

    So Ms Moore is trying to intimidate me into “covering up.”

    Nope. Shopping for more hoochie shirts as we speak. You don’t bully me into what to wear or not wear. People are standing up to your decades long harassment of men, other women, and trans women and it’s about time.

    Your bully days are done and I’ll put my boobs out and forward front and center any damn time I please.

    I said no to your several propositions with lewd comments about my breasts and you’ve harassed me every since. No man would get away with that but you’re using your female privilege as a shield.

    Nope. You are a spurned suitor who has harassed me every since and you picked the wrong chick to bully.

  285. paulie Post author

    Your bully days are done and I’ll put my boobs out and forward front and center any damn time I please.

    I’ll drink to that!

  286. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Caryn Ann Harlos, April 30, 2018 at 21:38 ….
    I said no to your several propositions with lewd comments about my breasts and you’ve harassed me every since. No man would get away with that but you’re using your female privilege as a shield. Nope. You are a spurned suitor who has harassed me every since and you picked the wrong chick to bully.

    CM: Poor Ms Harlos, the stress of all those LP projects is really getting to her. She’s really making stuff up now. I know she’s referring to my posting a photo of MY boobs on her big FB “look at my boobs” post of early 2016, before I even knew she was an anti-choice person – or married. (Poor Wayne.)

    I didn’t do much FB archiving or screen shots back then, but I remember I made some funny and supportive joke. However, it was soon after that she blocked me, even before I found out she was anti-choicer. Couldn’t take the competition? Anyway, Mrs. Harlos is a BIG FUCKING LIAR about ” several propositions with lewd comments” and “spurned suitor”. But I think a number of people know that by now. Show me the screen shots, Mrs. Harlos.

    Here’s the photo of me. No butter face back then! (And just a loveable granny look today.)
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156960363225599&set=a.10156960311200599.1073741826.744465598&type=3&theater

    The girl fight continues. Or is it the BOOB FIGHT? (double entendre ha ha ha)

    But seriously, there is an anti-abortionist tactics of teasing guys sexually to get them to be pro-life. Someone told me the name for it but I lost/can’t find the reference. Sexually teasing males when you guilt trip women who actually HAVE sex with guys NOT their husbands is TACKY. So be tacky, Mrs. Harlos. Poor Wayne.

  287. Caryn Ann Harlos

    I think better of men and my body is my body not yours. How very patriarchal of you. My husband loves that I’m proud of my body

    I don’t archive screen shots like you Carol – and you did proposition me. You posted a drool emoticon and told me you were bi and wondered if I was. I said I was married but thanks for the compliment. You then said some marriages are open to that and I said mine was not but again thanks for the compliment. I think, but am not sure, that I even deleted the post after that because it made me really really uncomfortable after you started attacking me. I know I went back and looked at it again to be sure I remembered it correctly when you went Jeckyll and Hyde. I didn’t save it because it never occurred to me in a million years that TWO YEARS LATER YOU WOULD STILL BE OBSESSING ON ME. It’s pathological. And you do this to many people. You just started similar shit with someone else I learned.

    Another lewd comment was made on another post. There may have been more. I distinctly remember those and even commented to people, wow, Carol Moore just propositioned me. Usually when I am propositioned it is couples – I have been invited to be the second woman by many couples.

    I didn’t care. I was flattered. If not married I would consider relationships with women – getting out of my religious fundamentalism made me realize that I am a bit more fluid than I wanted to admit. And if one does not ask one never knows. I didn’t block you then. I liked you. I like fun and flirty women. There are multiple women I have heterosexual flirty relationships with. I blocked you when you turned abusive and stalky.

    It only became a problem when you immediately turned around and started obsessing on my body in a demeaning way.

    I don’t care who believes me and I have nothing to prove. So it’s only #listenandbelieve when a man is the offender? Having a vagina gives you a free pass?

    And bringing in someone’s spouse like that is as low class as it gets.

    You are a sexual harasser. #timesup

    And no you will not intimidate me into dressing to your standards. Don’t like my boobs? Don’t look. Easy.

    You have gotten away with being a horribly unpleasant person in this party for decades. There are few people who have been around a while who don’t have a story about you in that regard. It’s over. You think because you are a woman you can get away with it. No, you can’t.

    Any man with an ounce of sense who thought he was being lied about being a sexual harasser would just leave that woman alone in a New York second. Not you. You continue to harass which gives a lot of credence to my assertion. Innocent people don’t keep it up – they go “wow, what a crazy loon” and don’t look back.

    Want me to stop pointing out your harassment? Its easy. Leave me the fuck alone and I will return the favour and gladly not spend another single second thinking or talking about you. I want nothing to do with you but I am not going to be bullied and maligned and shamed and harassed. Too many people have let you get away with that. I will not.

    You are pathological in your obsession with people. You dig through years and years of bullshit to try to find a gotcha – that’s not normal. You just did that to someone else and really freaked her out. I imagine you have a little room with pictures of me all up in it like some psycho freak.

    Just leave me the fuck alone – your attentions and obsession is unwelcome. Get the hint.

    There is a tipping point in the Party right now where the bad actors and bullies are being exposed. Lacking a Y chromosome doesn’t exempt you. #LPspeakout

  288. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Ms. Harlos is so full of shit it’s tribling down her cleavage.

    And I saw Mr. Harlos in one of her videos and he looked like a beaten dog when she yelled at him.

    Poor guy.

  289. Caryn Ann Harlos

    I hope everyone sees the above and sees what kind of person she is.

    Now imagine a man saying that to a woman and what would be the reaction. Unacceptable.

    There is a big double standard here – women get a free pass to be despicable.

    She brings my husband into it who doesn’t know her, has nothing to do with any of this, and anyone that knows him knows he is about the best man in the world.

    Despicable.

    And just think of how close this fits the pattern of a typical sexual abuser.

  290. Jill Pyeatt

    This really is a bit TMI, but…

    And I saw Mr. Harlos in one of her videos and he looked like a beaten dog when she yelled at him.

    This makes Carol look like a mean, jealous spinster. If she doesn’t like Caryn Ann, she should put on her big-gender-free pants and ignore her.

  291. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Having bothered to read the above more carefully, it is true I enjoy the art of the expose. In a less sexist world which screwed me up for first 35 years I’d probably have made a successful journalist. I do enjoy digging up the dirt, I admit it!! Guess I should move on to more profitable fish to fry! Just don’t have the energy at 70 years to do the leg work.

    Here’s what I just shared with pro-choice libertarians since a member had shared some comments of Ms. Harlos and others who dislike her had said she had a bad history. Just so others would know the facts:

    Quoting me: In the last 2.5 years of party activism Ms. Harlos probably has decided that her dislike of abortion is less important than her retaining her position as a party leader. Or emerging party boss. But if she can use anti-abortionism to accrue more power, you can bet she will.

    A lot of people distrust her true motivations, which seem to be pretty much what they were when she was involved with the Preterist Chrisitian evangelical movement before she got in the LP. Circa the 2000s. Read this article and see if you can figure out what it’s about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism
    From criticisms I’ve read, she scatched her way to the top, insulting, badmouthing and making up absurd lies about those who got in her way.

    Before the LP she made herself self-styled “boss” of the anti-hyperpreterism movement in Christian eschatology. She had websites and podcasts and a youtube page, mostly gone now. See for example this one. https://youtu.be/6ciPbk0iewc She was accused of “maliciously slandering and attacking Christians for several years” and associating with an aggressive stalker named Roderick.
    http://planetpreterist.com/content/campaign-intimidation-and-harassment

    Similarly she complained about being stalked here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ACyberstalking In 2012 one of her alleged allies called the FBI on someone he claimed was stalking him. http://unpreterist.blogspot.com/2012/09/if-something-happens-to-me.html I guess Christian sects can be turgid pools of paranoia.

    She decided to use the name “Dee Dee Warren” for her ministry, even though there already was an established, older wife and ministry partner of a Baptist minister named Dee Dee Warren.

    At this page there is a rant about Caryn Ann Dos Santos (her previous married name) using that name. Given the rant’s reference to some other person who “might cherish their own real name”, it might have been written by Mrs. Warren or her friends who were annoyed at this “coincidence”. http://deedeewarren1.blogspot.com/

    It’s clear Ms. Harlos can be very aggressive, but has NO tolerance for push back. One planetpreterist poster opined she had “an over-inflated opinion of her own role in the field of theological inquiry” and was aggressive confronting views and beliefs that conflict with her own. However, she would go into great ‘distress’ – cries on camera if necessary and plays the victim -when people defend themselves as assertively as she attacks.

    While Dee Dee, now Caryn Ann, may be eight years older, she still fails to understand that if you are aggressively working in a libertarian organization to undermine any group’s legal rights, members of that group may hit back just as hard.

    Pro-choicers certainly have reasons to distrust Ms. Harlos because of her initial use of the alias Dee Dee Warren in aggressively promoting getting rid of the abortion plank in 2015-2016. Then there was her widely distributed article about doing so, written under “Harlos” when she dropped the alias.
    Ms. Harlos obviously has annoyed some with her aggressive pink hair/big boob cleavage strategies for getting attention from the male dominated LP. obviously has annoyed some with her aggressive with her pink hair/big boob clevage strategies for getting attention from the male dominated LP. As for the “boob’s” criticism I and others have made, Ms. Harlos actually said on The Libertarian Nerds podcasts in reply to criticism: “And let’s face it, all of us use whatever we got…so I emphasize that a little bit… I’m near 50 years old and I think I look damn good for near 50 years old and I’m going to show it…” See end of podcast.
    http://libertariannerds.com/2016/12/15/wizardly-wisdom-reality-anxiety-ep-6-caryn-ann-harlos/ Today she said on Independent Political Report: “I’ll put my boobs out and forward front and center any damn time I please.” and made some patently untrue allegations. http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2018/04/lnc-meeting-coverage-denver-april-21-22-2018/#comment-1777329

    So if she wants to admit she’ll use her boobs to scratch her way to the top of the heap, she’s gotta be able to take the fact that others are going to call her out on her nonsense, whether or not she’s still promoting anti-choice views. Of course, now she’s busy trying to pit “left” and “right” libertarians against each other, including in the LNC. See how she totally dominates discussion there: http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business/2018/thread.html Doubtless a way of causing chaos and consolidating her control and those who she aligns with, in her ever shifting alliances.

    Thinking about it, she’s more of a Steve Givot (obnoxious and destructive but hardworking secretary circa 1992-2004ish who helped gut the old platform) than a Wayne Root who shot his big mouth off for a few years, got little done and left.

  292. Caryn Ann Harlos

    Jill its awful. First of all, I don’t yell at my husband. I adore him beyond measure. He doesn’t deserve to be trash-talked like this, it is very low and petty.

    But seriously people have observed this: “Her obsession with you and with harassing you is really scary in all actuality. It is quite literally textbook behavior common in dangerous stalkers.”

    And it is. I once had a down to earth real stalker. Like full security alert at my work stalker. If a man acted like this, no one would think twice about calling it what it is. I am not taken seriously in my complaints about her because she is a woman. Women get away with being abusers. There are a many abused men who will tell you the same thing.

    All I want from her is to leave me alone. I don’t want to talk about her, think about her, or have anything to do with her, but I am not going to let her intimidate me and others. People have come out of the woodwork to tell me that she has done this to people for decades. Why has this been tolerated?

    If she were a man, she would have been unfriended and shunned en masse. And others tolerate her just because they agree on abortion. Shame on them. There are so many excellent women who can take up that banner with honour.

  293. Caryn Ann Harlos

    But this is what Ms. Moore will do. Spend hundreds of hours trying to find shit from years and years ago to string together in some wild bullshit narrative to once again obsessively try to smear me.

    FFS she got worried an obscure debate about Christian eschatology. Not even Christians are bored enough to do that. And she tries to pretend I am “lying” about her because I had a stalker in the past – but her behaviour is there for everyone to see. And yes I did – some guy in (I won’t name the state) who was a strident polygynist who thought women had no right to have independent opinions contrary to men and wanted to teach me a lesson on female submission. It was really really bad. My work had a picture of him at the front desk to watch out and no male callers were ever to be put through to me. He would send me creepy emails about his visits to Florida and post maps to my house online and researched the oddest facts – like would drop in the middle of a discussion that he knew who I bought my house from and where I grew up. That experience and how awful it was (I went through a suicidal depression it was so stressful) is why I never back down to bullies now. And when creeps start acting like this again, it does give me a bit of PTSD. Its not pleasant.

    I don’t mention more details about him because that was the deal. You leave me the fuck alone and I will return the favour. He only left me alone because a bigger badder ass then him gave him a taste of his own medicine and an employer found out and wouldn’t hire him.

    Bullies don’t stop. They don’t go away. Ignoring them is horrid advice. They need to be stopped by the community, and Ms. Moore has been harassing people for over two decades. Usually men. Usually not of the deeply personal sexual nature it has been with me.

  294. Caryn Ann Harlos

    And I do want to bring up something really ironic. One of the persons in question in Carol’s many links is one Virgil of Planet Preterist. Virgil is a fellow anarchist (coincidence we ended up in the same place) who is now a dear friend who apologized for what he put me through and said it was wrong. He isn’t the person who was the stalker, but he knows who that person is and regrets any involvement.

    But I most definitely did have one – and it was taken care of.

    None of that means a hoot to Ms. Moore’s open harassment which everyone sees.

    I will continue to call her the sexual harasser she is.

    And Paulie thanks her for the motivation for me to model some more hoochie shirts. My pleasure.

    and I sure hope the above shows the extent of the obsession. Its not normal.

  295. Caryn Ann Harlos

    Oh poor Carol running to the Audacious Caucus to try to claim I was leading a “purge” when I talked about a tipping point.

    *little

    Nice lie Carol. And another obsession on my boobs.

    No, Carol the tipping point is the community tolerating your bullshit and that of others. Primarily others – like the fact that Kim McCurry was harassed out of the party, that Trish now will no longer give her speech at convention, that Resa has been hounded to kingdom come. Not about me. There is a HUGE intimidation and harassment problem in the LP (very little of it to do with me). Voluntary disassociation. No purges. I have said that many times but accuracy hasn’t been a strength of yours. Newsflash: The world doesn’t revolve around you, me, or my fantastic cleavage.

    Do you have any idea of how pathetic you are looking?

    One thing I will give the LPAC. They are all about support the freedom to flaunt cleavage. You are barking up the wrong tree.

    And CC wins the internet:

    Try again.

  296. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    As I wrote on LPAC where people DO get the point about the powermongering and other bad behaviors:

    I guess you’d have to be a woman who was sexually active during the time when abortion was illegal (circa 1969-1973) to understand why someone who is sexually teasy while being OH SO OUTRAGED by abortion is really offensive. Sigh…. It’s a generational thing, I guess.

    I’m wondering who is running vs. Harlso for Secretary and why Ms. Harlos went on a tirade against me recently. Is someone running against her for Secretary and she feels she has to bolster her “victimhood” or something to get votes?

    Also, it is interesting that Ms. Harlos finally attacked me personally on the alleged harassment issue (aka daring to criticize her) AFTER I criticized her current attacks on anti-propertarians, with not a teasy boob in sight. Writing at link below:
    Carol Moore/Secession.net
    April 22, 2018 at 11:59
    Caryn Ann Harlos April 22, 2018 at 10:46 wrote: ” I did say that anti-propertarianism as an idea is incompatible, but that no one is required to 100% toe the Party line. (I would say the same thing about several of my own views by the way).”

    Anti-propertarianism IS compatible as long as it is a voluntary choice and not forced on others.

    Of course, insulting propertarians because they don’t share that ideology would not be very libertarian. (Some alleged libertarian is insulting me as a bigot right now because I’m upholding plank 3.5 Rights and Discrimination on private organizations retain their rights to set whatever standards of association they deem appropriate…”

    Criticizing and making fun of anti-propertarians and other statists who DO want to use the state IS legitimate, i.e., those who want to state action or who work to eliminate platform planks that oppose state action. Unfortunately, there have been SO many of the latter, the platform is now is so lacking in detail all sorts of statist nonsense can be asserted within it. http://independentpoliticalreport.com/…/lnc-meeting…/
    End quote

    By the way, turns out on that initial April 22, 2016 posting where you proved you were NOT ugly, as a Petersen supporter alleged, by putting up 3 boobs photos, my comment is STILL there. Will link to it after I put it up on my one personal page where I can actually post things now a days.

  297. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Facebook is SO sexist. I made a joke about making a meme of Smith/Merced/Harlos ticket with a photo of a CLOTHED hard on shot and within 30 seconds FB went INSANE and demanded I remove it or it would NOT let me post. I had to remove it and say other photos weren’t porno. (Like a photo of flowers that look like little guys with dicks.)

    I guess posting cleavage is still ok, but NOT clothed hard ons. SEXISM!!!!!!! How are women to get OUR jollies??

    I thought I’d try a boxer”Taxation is theft” photo WITHOUT hard on… One I’ve posted before. Well, maybe not, I don’t want to get BLOCKED for a month! Geez…

  298. Caryn Ann Harlos

    Classic harasser again. Imagine Carol was a man, and this was an office. Carol said this:

    ===I’m wondering who is running vs. Harlso for Secretary and why Ms. Harlos went on a tirade against me recently. Is someone running against her for Secretary and she feels she has to bolster her “victimhood” or something to get votes?===

    And some man might say

    ==I am wondering what promotion Ms. Jones is after that she feels she needs to shed a few lady tears over a mere pat on the rump.====

    and more lies

    ===Also, it is interesting that Ms. Harlos finally attacked me personally on the alleged harassment issue (aka daring to criticize her) AFTER I criticized her current attacks on anti-propertarians, ====

    There is not an alleged harassment there is a real one. I am criticized dozens of times a day and do not give AF. That is life. Anyone on my Facebook wall knows I have been speaking out about this now since before there was any propertarian issue but Carol will shamelessly hook onto whatever she can. The Party Platform is propertarian. That is all I said. People who wish to voluntary surrender their property rights may do so, that is not what anti-propertarian means.

    Rather than trying to drag people into your nonsense you could just stop acting like a predator and do something useful. I want nothing to do with you. I will gladly never think of you again if you simply stop being a pathological nut. It is pathetic, and apparently I am the only person over these many years that has decided to stand up to you. Probably because your past targets were men and no one takes men seriously when they are harassed by women.

  299. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    OK, since Ms. Harlso has decided to levy false/fraudulent/libelous/lying statements about me, I’ve finally been motivated to upload excerpts from my 4/23/16 screenshot of evidently the first post where Ms. Harlos realized that BOOBS were a great promotional idea. Over 30 people make appreciative comments on her boobs; my joke – still visible on the page – was less explicit than many and hardly a proposition!

    Below is the one page intro to the one page PDF screenshot including 3 boobs photos. http://carolmoore.net/HarlosLiesOnSexualHarassment.pdf

    INTRO TEXT:

    MS. HARLOS’ MALICIOUS LIES ABOUT SEXUAL HARASSMENT

    I have over a couple years complained – including with amusing memes – about Ms. Caryn Ann Harlos’ sexual hypocrisy of using her breasts to promote herself, even as she cries on podcast about the horror of abortion. http://www.theopologetics.com/2013/03/01/episode-108-forgive-me-lord/

    She recently made this false/fraudulent/libelous/lying claim about me: “I said no to your several propositions with lewd comments about my breasts and you’ve harassed me every since. No man would get away with that but you’re using your female privilege as a shield. Nope. You are a spurned suitor who has harassed me every since and you picked the wrong chick to bully.
    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2018/04/lnc-meeting-coverage-denver-april-21-22-2018/

    WHERE DID THIS COME FROM? Before I knew Ms. Harlos was pro-life/anti-choice I was a Facebook “Friend” and happened to participate in her thread on her personal page below. In it she wanted to prove she was NOT ugly, as an Austin Petersen supporter alleged, by putting up 3 photos of herself in very low cut outfits. I joined in the “fun” that a couple dozen people ALREADY had had complimenting her “boobs. I wrote “You’re getting us bi gals horny too.” I included a very sexy 25 year old “boobs” photo of self; she took it down before I made the screen shot from which I include excerpts below.

    I later noticed that the “boobs” theme remained frequent in her postings, memes, video made in low cut outfits that continued to attract “boobs” comments from males. I could include a few more screen shots, but the below makes the point. I and others commented on her hypocrisy, given her still vehement opposition to abortion. Hint – pregnancy is a result of actual sex!

    She defended herself on podcast in December of 2016 saying: “And let’s face it, all of us use whatever we got…so I emphasize that a little bit… I’m near 50 years old and I think I look damn good for near 50 years old and I’m going to show it…” http://libertariannerds.com/2016/12/15/wizardly-wisdom-reality-anxiety-ep-6-caryn-ann-harlos/

    If Ms. Harlos Had Not Been So Eager to Get Rid of the Abortion Plank and Wasn’t Holier than Thou on Abortion, this Might Be a Minor Issue to Me. I have now become convinced she’s downplaying abortion now because it interferes with her goal of increasing power in the party by running for LNC secretary. Recently I criticized some of her other political moves on independentpoliticalreport.com. She immediately launched two nasty attacks on me, the first with a nasty slur which I proved often is joined to threats of violence against women, the second with these false/fraudulent/libelous/lying claims of sexual harassment. Campaign tactics?

    Her allegations of “several propositions with lewd comments” and “spurned suitors” are FALSE, FRAUDULENT, LIBELOUS and LYING!

    I showed my screen shot. Where are hers?

    If she wants to complain I’ve overdone it a bit in making fun of her sexual hypocrisy in teasing guys while being morally opposed to abortion, fine. That is true. Mea culpa.

    I do apologize to Mr. Harlos for losing my temper and referring to him.

    Ms. Harlos writes at link above: “I’ll put my boobs out and forward front and center any damn time I please.” Well, if that’s her idea of being a free woman, whatever. But I still can make fun of her, even as I and others would of a guy who frequently posted photos like this to advance his political career.

    Carol Moore in DC 5/1/18
    ART PHOTO
    (Note: Facebook BLOCKED this photo and would not let me post til I removed it!!)

  300. Caryn Ann Harlos

    Obsess much? Thank you for proving my case. I had said leading up to the propositions you made sure I knew you were bi. Which you did there. That is not the post I was referring to. And as I said, I don’t obsessively save your posts and had no reason to at that time. And if my memory serves me correct (though I cannot swear on that one) after you became insanely obsessed I went back and read the proposition again and was creeped out by it and deleted the whole thread. I don’t even think it was on my wall but in the radicals group but that too I am not particularly sure of.

    I could care less that you propositioned me at the time. There is nothing wrong with that. I told you I was married and did not have an open marriage and that was that. There was nothing wrong or harassing about your proposition. That is normal healthy human behaviour. It was after being told politely no but thanks for the compliment and you started freaking out on my appearance that it was creepy.

    I don’t have to prove a thing to you or anyone. I don’t care if anyone believes me or not. I don’t need that to prove you are an obsessed nut – you’ve done that to yourself with TWO YEARS OF OBSESSION ABOUT MY BREASTS. I merely gave the back story about why I see it more than a sad woman with nothing better to do and more like outright sexual harassment as that is how it would be viewed if you were a man. And you love to claim men are wrong-doers when you are doing it yourself. You and the whole world could not believe my account of your proposition (which again, was perfectly fine), my accusation against you as a sexual harasser doesn’t depend on that – YOUR HUNDREDS OF POSTS ABOUT MY BREASTS DOES. Any man who did that would be labeled such. If any LP staff member did that, they would be fired as per our Policy Manual on sexual harassment. Shame on you. I have zero reason to make up shit about you – your known behaviour is batshit crazy enough on its own.

    What kind of nut spends that kind of time on a complete stranger. Seek padding, this is not mentally normal behaviour.

    And get a grip – you will get no sympathy from the Audacious Caucus over your offense over my body. Say what you will about them, they don’t shame people for being sexual beings or showing skin.

    PS: And wow, your creepy factor just went up a notch. You have been blocked from my timeline for about two years now yet you have a screenshot from an old flirty comment because you certainly could not grab it now? Did you actually screen shot that then and save it for TWO YEARS??? WTAF? Please tell me you don’t have a little dark room plastered with pictures of me.

  301. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    You are such a LIAR Ms. Harlos. Now I know why so many others say that.

    I did mention I was bi; forgot about til looked at screen shot last night. But the rest is lying crap, “gee I don’t have to prove it” and adhominens.

    You know, I didn’t really care if you were elected secretary before, but now I’m disgusted. Here’s my first meme. I can imagine the lying two faced numbers you would pull if elected.

    Here’s my meme about what a liar you are: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10160557013280599&set=p.10160557013280599&type=3&theater&ifg=1

    Harlos bull protecting her LIE: “…And if my memory serves me correct (though I cannot swear on that one) after you became insanely obsessed I went back and read the proposition again and was creeped out by it and deleted the whole thread. I don’t even think it was on my wall but in the radicals group but that too I am not particularly sure of.”

    Harlos blad-faced self pitying LIE: “I could care less that you propositioned me at the time. There is nothing wrong with that. I told you I was married and did not have an open marriage and that was that. There was nothing wrong or harassing about your proposition. That is normal healthy human behaviour. It was after being told politely no but thanks for the compliment and you started freaking out on my appearance that it was creepy.”

    The rest is Harlos admits her complaint REALLY is about my mocking her PRO-SEX/SEX POSITIVE while ANTI-ABORTION bull, follow by lots of silly (self-reflective?) ad hominems.

    SO WHO IS RUNNING AGAINST YOU FOR SECRETARY AGAIN???

  302. Mikester

    “Racism is so [right-libertarian] that when we protest racism, the average [right-libertarian] thinks we’re protesting [right-libertarians]..”

    Apparently there’s a new lie going around is that people calling out paleolibertarianism are conflating it with all right libertarians, this is false. #BottomUnity has brought together a diverse coalition of ancaps, mutualists, and libsoc people who reject nationalist philosophies and the narratives of cultural dominance with which they are inextricably linked. These coalitions prove that working together to present a united front against authoritarian narratives from the toxic SJW-left to the far alt-right is both possible and effective. Nobody ever makes the mistake of thinking we are attacking each other.

    The people perpetuating the lie that right libertarianism and paleolibertarianism cannot be separated are doing it to preserve the value of social capital they’ve built with ethnic and civic nationalists. Don’t fall for it. The market in social relationships is one of the only free markets we have left. Reject fiat nationalism!! Every Libertarian has a right to declare that the currency of racial, ethnic or any other kind of political supremacy has no value.

    #Liberty4ALL

    (I am placing an “img” tag here, if it does not display it means there is some kind of power imbalance on this site where people who are contributing editors have ability to place a type of content that readers cannot access and this allows them to craft replies that carry greater referential weight)

  303. Caryn Ann Harlos

    I don’t have to prove it because I don’t care who believes me, and I don’t obsessively save screen shots because AT THE TIME I DIDN’T CARE THAT YOU PROPOSITIONED ME. And at the time I didn’t dream that you were such a nut to be still obsessed over my body two years later.

    Your sexual harassment campaign against me is so public that it is laughable. Now you are sinking to even new lows by trying to bully a woman who speaks out against it. Everyone knows you have made hundreds of inappropriate comments about my body. That is indisputable and you claim only several dozen (as if that wouldn’t be bad enough!!!) you have made more than several dozen here on IPR alone. Yes, you have made well over a hundred on FB and I would fairly guess more. And that first flirty comment you made to me is NOT the proposition yet you falsely said it was. But let’s pretend that was the only time you commented to me that way (it isn’t, we had an exchange where you made it clear you were interested that followed several similar flirty posts where you made it clear to me that you were bi and that you found me attractive), if a man had made a comment that a woman was making him horny and then turned around and harassed her for that very same body feature for two years no one would deny that is some 50 shades of fucked up.

    Good bye Ms. Moore. I leave you to your miserable lonely life. I will never ever again speak directly to you, but will respond to your predatory behaviour on my own wall and to others.

  304. Mikester

    As I suspected, the “img” tag does not display. If ordinary readers cannot post images then I call for the site to remove this possibility for site editors or for them to voluntary speak from a position of equality. Having an imbalance in the type of content people can deploy in comments is weaponizing knowledge as power to disarm the readers.

    For those wondering where the “img” tag was meant to point, here is a link to the post I was riffing off of:
    https://www.facebook.com/LibertarianAntiFascistCommittee/photos/a.426690391058526.1073741829.359972687730297/550475278680036/?type=3&permPage=1

  305. Caryn Ann Harlos

    ===Apparently there’s a new lie going around is that people calling out paleolibertarianism are conflating it with all right libertarians===

    Some are. Neither Smith nor Heise are anything other than right libertarians, if that.

  306. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    OK I changed audacious caucus meme to make it more explanative that the hypocrisy charge vs. Ms. Harlos is her promoting sex positive views while being against abortion. https://www.facebook.com/groups/LPAudacious/permalink/1669653429738926/

    Apologies for link most of you can’t read…

    Thanks Mikester for explaining WHY there’s no instructions on how mere readers can code in an image!

    Have you appealed to Mr. Redlich? I have found him very helpful with other technical issues.

  307. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    OK, clarify please – ALL RIGHT or ALT-RIGHT?? Latter would make more sense…

    ===Apparently there’s a new lie going around is that people calling out paleolibertarianism are conflating it with all right libertarians===

  308. Mikester

    If there’s a way to add images, I would love to know about.

    CAH relies on blocking out the strongest voices on Facebook so she can craft her own narratives in the space created by our absence. It would be nice to be on an equal footing here on this site which purports to enable these kinds of horizontal dialogues. There are screen shots from when the Libertarian Anti-Fascist Committee exposed Josh Smith for having close ties to the American Guard, though he had said he was not connected, there had been an exchange where he was able to tag several of their high profile leaders who immediately showed up to vouch for his and one another’s characters and proceeded to deploy nationalist recruitment material on their page. This should worry anyone who already sees the vulnerability in ethnic and civic nationalists seeing the LP as a safe haven from which to build a platform. Having a chair that can quick dial chauvinist organizers to make an immediate entrance on demand is not the LP I want and hopefully enough others agree. This isn’t some ancient thing either, it happened in March. CAH is either so out of touch through her self imposed echo chamber or she is deliberately trying to shield her audience from this material. Either way it is irresponsible and dangerous. Those screen shots can be seen here: https://www.facebook.com/LibertarianAntiFascistCommittee/posts/527679514292946

  309. Caryn Ann Harlos

    I spoke to Joshua about Ramsey and told him my view. He isn’t convinced and I understand that because it took me a while to be convinced. Joshua is not a white nationalist nor a white nationalist sympathizer. That is simply untrue. It is untrue in precisely the same way that some people tried to defame Nick by calling him a pedo sympathizer.

    You can keep saying that and I was hugely skeptical of that whole crowd due to my dislike of Hoppe’s dystopian libertarianism but instead of looking for ways to confirmation a bias, I got to know both Heise and Smith – and while I think that some of the LP dramas they were involved in were completely unnecessary and inappropriate, they are not white nationalists or sympathizers.

    And Mike really? I block people I don’t want to associate with for various reasons as do you. It is even possible your block list is longer than mine, and I don’t begrudge you that, it is smart. No one has a right to your time and attention.

  310. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Mike: I’ll assume you meant ALT-right.

    You accusations are interesting, but SO HARD TO READ. That’s why I like nice big lettered PDF exposes on websites now. This was my first one today.

    I do get impression these guys are just naive about the kind of people they are associating with. That’s enough to disqualify them for national party offices. I certainly thought, for example, that League of the South had dropped their racism in 2007 when they were hanging around with Greens and liberals and libertarians in the secession movement of that decade. But OOOPS!! Charlottesville 2017 came, and there they were, marching around. So while I always want to see people drop bigotted attitudes, one can’t be naive.

    Ms Harlos is less naive, of course, being a major operator with strong ties to evangelical and anti-abortion right. (Oh, I forgot. Criticizing her on ANYTHING is sexual harassment. geeez.)

  311. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    By the way, I guess admins can do BOLD too that we can’t do.

    I bugged Redlich this month on tech stuff. Why doesn’t Mikester try. Email: wredlich@gmail.com

    Remind him WHICH website you are talking about since he’s got a few.

  312. Mikester

    I mean “all right libertarians”.

    It’s picking up on a comment I saw here earlier where CAH attempted to minimize critiques of paleolibertarianism by saying it has become a slur for all right libertarians. Therefore in that instance I did intend “all”.

  313. Mikester

    It is already written in English. Is this a movement of intellectuals or not? I’m not sure how any of us are supposed to grapple with what’s really going on here, if the vocabulary required to call it by name is considered too abstract to be utilized in everyday speech.

    Of course, this is how politicians keep ordinary people in the dark too, so it’s not surprising to see LP bureaucrats attempting to replicate the dynamic as it becomes increasingly a structural enabler for politicians in place of principles. Libertarian can’t push back against the hegemony of right wing propertarian think tanks and the GOP wannabe politicians they support if the rank and file are never told that these nuances exist.

    I have certainly had to find it all out through autodidactic trial and error.

  314. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Mikester: All right I got “all right”….

    Well if people would stay away from left and right lingo that would help.

    After all, culturally “liberal” libertarians can be “conservative” on defense and vice versa, for example.

    And radical vs gradualist change is another area people can be unpredictably “conservative” or “liberal”.

    All that matters is they are libertarian decentralists who will let peaceful secessionists get the hell out and not force their values on members of their independent voluntary communities once they voluntarily end up forming one. Then they can just say what kind of community it is ideologyically – once they’ve decided what kind of mix of residential vs. commercial vs. vacation vs. farm vs. industrial vs. wilderness etc it will be.

    Fighting over labels when one can consense on withdrawing from the established order is VERY annoying and I kick myself every day I get into it.

    But I have those five or six hot buttons that control my life… sigh…

  315. paulie Post author

    And Paulie thanks her for the motivation for me to model some more hoochie shirts. My pleasure.

    Mine too 🙂

    Carol, please move on. I don’t want IPR to be accused of being a forum for harrassing people who say they are being stalked and ask to be left alone. I realize that it’s more complicated when we are also talking about a party leader who is seeking a top party officer position but there are other venues where you can air your criticism where she had the option of blocking, FB and twitter being examples. Since IPR has no such feature, please take it somewhere else.

  316. paulie Post author

    Jill posted this on a different thread. I think it makes sense.

    Carol, you’re very good at your anti-war activities. With all these potential powder kegs right now, perhaps you can spend your time on those. There are just too few of us in our movement, and beating each other up isn’t accomplishing anything. We have a terrible cancer here in Los Angeles threatening to tear us apart. It should never have been allowed to get as bad as it has. Please don’t let this get any worse.

  317. paulie Post author

    As I suspected, the “img” tag does not display. If ordinary readers cannot post images then I call for the site to remove this possibility for site editors or for them to voluntary speak from a position of equality. Having an imbalance in the type of content people can deploy in comments is weaponizing knowledge as power to disarm the readers.

    I’m sorry, I am not empowered to make non-editors able to access image posting. And being able to post images in comments is one of the few redeeming features of why I still come back here. If I can’t have even a little fun why even bother? I would empower everyone to post images if I could. Sorry for the power imbalance. I’ll make you an editor if you would like. We could use some help posting new articles if you are willing.

  318. paulie Post author

    By the way, I guess admins can do BOLD too that we can’t do.

    That you can do. It’s a simple HTML tag.

  319. paulie Post author

    I spoke to Joshua about Ramsey and told him my view. He isn’t convinced and I understand that because it took me a while to be convinced. Joshua is not a white nationalist nor a white nationalist sympathizer.

    I think you are being naive about Heise and Smith. You may be right, and maybe they are not and are just being dangerously naive. Either way the result is that they make the LP more welcoming for this garbage and are blind to how they are doing so. You were there when Smith told me Deist’s blood and soil speech means something else. That’s at best dangerous naivete. Whether it’s that or disingenuous the end result is the same. I think Chuck Moulton’s criticism above stands. They are still welcome to come here themselves and make their case.

    I don’t doubt that Heise and Smith are cool to hang out with and make you think they must be OK. But then Ramsey and Invictus can probably come off as completely cool, reasonable, charming and friendly too. It’s entirely possible that they could be disingenuous with you in a convincing way. It’s also possible that Ramsey and others of his ilk similarly convinced Heise and Smith that they are alright. Well, there’s a disconnect somewhere and again the end result is still laying out the welcome mat to the bigoted far right whether that is intentional or not – and it’s the absolute last thing we need.

  320. Carol Moore/Secession.net

    Paulie and Jill: I’m quite burned out on the topic myself.

    Re: this thread, I do lose my temper when baited, I admit it!

    Remember I’m not the one who started it here, merely disagreeing mildly with Ms. Harlos on some other topic and then being assaulted with what I consider to be a violence against women slur.

    Per this newest article which makes it clear why more and more women see and object to this verbal violence. http://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/05/01/trans-activism-become-centered-justifying-violence-women-time-allies-speak/

    Hopefully should I happen to disagree with Ms. Harlos on some OTHER topic she won’t bait me or I won’t respond to baiting again. I think she wants to play the martyr for votes… enough said…

    I don’t think I’ve been harassing her, but I admit I have overdone it with the number of exposes and joke memes. I don’t have to come up with one EVERY TIME I hear she’s done or said something annoying. Or I think of the pink hair. 🙂

  321. Caryn Ann Harlos

    ===I think you are being naive about Heise and Smith.===

    I understand. I do not know Heise nearly as well as Smith but I have spent a lot of time with him over the past few months, and while I tend to be overly willing to overlook the faults of a friend, I am pretty hard to win that “friend” position to begin with. Joshua has never given me any reason to have any of those concerns. We have had policy differences etc, but never anything alt-right-y.

    == You were there when Smith told me Deist’s blood and soil speech means something else.===

    I think you were both talking past each other and emotions are so hot on that that discussion is almost impossible. You and I have disagreed on that speech too. I don’t think Deist was INTENDING to be welcoming to the far right, I don’t think he was advocating for “blood and soil.” What he intended to say – at least I think so – is that Libertarians need to remember that family and god and country matter to many people and that in our own subcultures we may have lost touch with that, and if we want to reach more people we need to remember that. I think his choice of using that phrase was monumentually stupid and that he doubled down worse than Arvin ever had on other monumentally stupid things to say.

    However, here is where I disagree with Deist. I don’t think Libertarians have forgotten that – I think they know it very well and don’t want to cater to it (aka pander). There is always a temptation to pander to one pole or the other.

    There were paleo echoes there – pander to some impulses we don’t agree with – but it wasn’t jackbooted nazi scare that some make it out to be.

    That is how I saw it, and I think that is what Joshua was trying to say but it got too heated in that exchange and I don’t think anyone heard anyone. I would love for you two to talk I really would. He is not a bad guy. And one thing I respect is that he knows my deep fondness for Nick and respect for Nick and never asks or demands that I take sides. I won’t, but he doesn’t ask either (neither does Nick).

    We as a Party have a problem will ill placed welcome mats in general (and I am not trying to argue if they are all equal in danger). There is a bigoted left we pander to as well. And now the blind eye turned to praises of McVeigh and veiled threats of mail bombs being tolerated by people I never ever thought would tolerate that. If there is ever a cause for “no platform” that is it.

    What can we do? I think we can try to see if perhaps the “enemy” really isn’t what we thought and try to bring us all together. It isn’t possible with everyone. There are truly some baddies. As for me, Smith and Heise are not baddies. They are not perfect (as I am not), and as I said, Heise in particular needs to cool his jets quite frequently, but I remember when I was a lot like that and Nick had to tell me to cool my own.

    ==They are still welcome to come here themselves and make their case.==

    I invited but I understand the preference for personal discussions over written discussions. You and I talk well in writing because we spoke on the phone in the very beginning when you were educating me about Oregon. And the rats.

  322. Mikester

    re: Paulie, “I’ll make you an editor if you would like. We could use some hel[p] posting new articles if you are willing.”

    What exactly does that entail in terms of commitment?

  323. paulie Post author

    Nothing. Post as often or as rarely as you wish. Of course, I’d love some consistent help but we take what we can get.

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