Joshua Smith’s Normal Blue-Collar American Problems

This post originally appeared on 71 Republic, who pulled it down hours later with this statement. Its author, Paul Grindle archived it here, from which IPR pulled it for this post. As an aside, 71 Republic’s defensive assertion that “the victor should be selected on the basis of their ideology” after promoting Smith previously here is curious in the context of a currently running series in favor of libertarian monarchism.

Paul Grindle writes:

Joshua Smith’s run for Chairman of the Libertarian National Committee has been one of the party’s most brutally scrutinized chairman campaigns in recent memory. Everything from his job to his children to his drinking has come under the aggressive and disorganized microscope of the Convention’s delegates. He has been subjected to sickening mockery of his admirable struggle to obtain employment, and his heartfelt openness about his past drinking and drug problems. His treatment at the hands of his opposition has only fueled the fire of the Mises Caucus of the Libertarian Party, whose endorsement and support have been the main energy behind his campaign. Throughout all the attacks, Joshua Smith has maintained a constant refrain: “I’m a normal, blue collar American with normal, blue collar American problems.”

But on June 14th, the Oregon Department of Justice’s Division of Child Support (DCS) filed a Notice of Intent to Suspend License against the aspiring chairman. Citing an unpaid child support arrears of $27,037.90, Oregon DCS will suspend his driver’s license within 30 days of the filing unless he enters into a written compliance agreement with the court. This is contrary to his insistence on that same day that “I pay now, and that’s all anyone really needs to know.” This is not a one-off statement by Joshua Smith. Despite DCS records showing he waited on payment until early 2017 and ceased payment this April, he asserted in the same Facebook thread, “I won’t have any financial issues that will keep me from the work I plan to do for the party.”

That assertion may not be the case for incumbent Chairman Nicholas Sarwark’s main challenger. In the same thread, Mr. Smith explains that his campaign has fundraised “a little under 10k” and that he has “spent over 5k of my own money.” However, his campaign is not an incorporated entity. This means every dollar donated to him is legally considered a gift to his person, a reality he acknowledges in that thread. That puts the money in the legal possession of someone who, as the Notice of Intent above lays out, is legally obligated to pay $458 in child support every month.

By having collected the donations as personal gifts, he now risks the court deciding that the $15,000 he spent on his chairmanship race was legally obligated to go, in part, to his outstanding child support arrears. Mr. Smith insists he has checked “more than once” that his campaign fundraising, which he classifies as “gifts,” is not considered personal income. But according to Oregon Administrative Rule 137-050-0715(4)(e), when calculating child support owed, “Actual income includes but is not limited to: Inheritances, gifts and prizes.” This could pose a significant legal threat to Mr. Smith, as he has been taking in thousands in “actual income” despite owing over $27,000 in unpaid child support.

These child support obligations currently plaguing Joshua Smith come from a custody agreement established in early 2014 with his ex-girlfriend, which was shared with 71 Republic by one of his ex’s representatives. His ex will be referred to here as Miss Jones. All names (except Mr. Smith’s), lawyers, case numbers, court personnel and locations, places of employment, and ages of the litigants are blacked out in all sourcing documentation to preserve the privacy of all parties involved.

The court case that established this agreement itself came from a long and bitter struggle between Miss Jones and Mr. Smith, with both sides’ stories in stark contrast. To obtain a better record of the events that occurred during the custody battle, 71Republic has uncovered a now-archived GoFundMe set up by Mr. Smith in 2013 to obtain a lawyer to fight for custody of his son. According to the GoFundMe, upon being alerted of Miss Jones’ pregnancy, he initially expressed disbelief that he could’ve been the father. This, Smith alleges, was followed by a series of threats by Miss Jones that “I would never get custody, and that she would kidnap him, move out of state, and never let me see him.”

Miss Jones describes it differently. “He only saw me once when I was pregnant and he came over 3AM drunk from the bar,” she recalled in correspondence provided by her representative to 71Republic. Contrary to his insistence that she was going to kidnap him, she claims, “He knew, I messaged him a week after I found out. [I begged] for him to attend the appts, ultrasound. Just anything. He didn’t.”

Six days after his son was born, Joshua Smith claims to have met the child over pizza with Miss Jones. “From that moment on,” Mr. Smith explained, “I knew I could never be away from him.” He proceeded to spend considerable amounts of time at Miss Jones’ residence to bond with his son. But things quickly soured, and as is often the case with Mr. Smith’s past, the stories of what occurred are in conflict. Mr. Smith’s GoFundMe lists a series of grievances against her: she would let him cry himself to sleep; she demanded he follow her rules even on comforting the child when crying; she refused to let him watch over his son alone; and rather than post pictures of him on Facebook, she would only post pictures of her deceased first daughter.

These last two complaints should be understood with context. In late 2011, Miss Jones’ first child was brutally murdered in the bathtub by blunt force trauma to the head. The culprit was her boyfriend at the time, who was watching their one-year old daughter alone while she was out working. Mr. Smith felt suspicious of her involvement in the death, stating “[Miss Jones] had said to the authorities that she had no idea that her one-year old daughter had been being abused, but sometimes would contradict that statement in things said to me.”

He went on to paint a portrait of a woman losing her mind. “About two weeks in to dating this woman, I started to notice that things were not right. She would take things I said, completely switch them up, and start serious fights over them. I am not talking about normal fights, I am talking about me being scared to go to sleep around her kind of fights. She showed signs of being a sociopath, and somewhat borderline personality disorder. There was a very real disconnect between her mental state and reality. It honestly scared the shit out of me. It eventually led to me cutting her out of my life.”

Naturally, Miss Jones disagreed with that characterization. When asked if she felt he was trying to play the victim, she responded by pointing, unprompted, to his GoFundMe page. “It was very hurtful because he was trying to make me out as a bad mom n talked about my daughter. Joshua is a sick man and I hope he gets help.” But disagreements over parenting wasn’t all she alleged. A restraining order was obtained. “Joshua was emotionally abusive towards me. Some mild physical. It wasn’t enough to keep the RO,” an order Mr. Smith referred to as “perjury ridden.”

His future behavior would eventually prove enough to obtain another one. As outside journalists began to piece this story together and requested detail and comment from Miss Jones, he and his mother began to harass her, Miss Jones’ representative alleges. The harassment has continued to such a degree that, according to her representative, a new restraining order is going to be filed against him this week.

Ultimately, despite a public announcement to a local radio station that he was meeting with his lawyer to prepare for the case, Mr. Smith represented himself in court. When the custody case was finally heard by the judge, it did not end well for him. While the paternity test verified that he was the father, the judge came down decisively on Miss Jones’ side, awarding her full custody. They were so distrustful of Mr. Smith’s allegations against Miss Jones that the custody agreement’s 19th Finding of Fact stated, “If Father engages in any public defamation against the Mother at any time in the future, then this court has made clear that the minor child may be removed from him and that this court, upon mother’s motion, may order no-contact between [his son] and Father on the basis said public defamation is harmful to the health, safety, and welfare of this child.”

Despite being a sole custody agreement in favor of the mother, the agreement had a three-phase system for Mr. Smith to reestablish trust with the court and a relationship with his son. If graduation, employment, and a track record of making his limited visitations could be established, as well as child support be regularly paid, then he could progressively have more visitation time and become a larger part of his son’s life. Unfortunately, as Miss Jones tells it, he stopped visiting altogether after six months. She says her family hasn’t seen him in five years. By refusing to keep to the terms of his visitation, Joshua Smith stays locked for some time into his agreement’s first stage of limited visitation, with the risk of losing further rights due to his absences.

Miss Jones sees this as a common pattern of behavior. “He is the type of guy that if something doesn’t benefit him in some way then[sic] he wants nothing to do with it.” According to her, his attempt to fight for sole custody was not due to “wanting my son to be safe” or his bitter protestation at her attempt to allow only one supervised hour of visitation a week, as his GoFundMe claims. There were darker motives, she says. “He was going to have his then girlfriend raise out son,” she asserts, going on to explain, “He fought for custody because he doesn’t want to pay for his child.” She left her feelings of him very clear. “He tried to pretend like he cared but his actions truly showed he could care less about his son.”

“I wish we could nail him to the wall.”

The he-said-she-said nature of the allegations from both sides makes every claim without an explicit court record subject to intense skepticism. For her part, Miss Jones’ social media presence occasionally decries an unnamed deadbeat dad. She has posted in groups asking for assistance on how to collect unpaid child support and, in a particularly emotional statement, sent out a warning against future contact. “I never thought this day would come. I thought I won that war. But here we are face to face ready to fight once again. All because of YOU!! Haven’t you had enough? It’s clear you don’t care.” She ended with a warning, “Just know this, YOU ARE NO LONGER JUST COMING AFTER ME… YOU ARE GOING AFTER A VILLAGE!”

For his part, Joshua Smith has been waging a social media campaign against negativity since 2016. His incredible page, Joshua Smith and the Motivation, is an outpost of somber reflection on past wrongdoings and boundless hope for a better tomorrow. The connection between the page’s message and his chairman campaign’s themes of optimism and change are strong.

A 2016 post reminds readers that “‘things’ don’t make you rich. Travel, love, friendships, family, etc. These are the things that make you rich. Let your legacy be about the awesome time you had in this life, and the bonds you’ve built. You’ll be a much richer spirit that way!” In contrast to Miss Jones’ characterization, it also has a post where Mr. Smith shares his joy at finally getting to see his second child for the first time in five years. “The first time I held her in my arms at the hospital, my heart grew bigger, my outlook on life, and love, and the world changed. Unfortunately I was young, and stupid, and I made decisions that ultimately ended with me not even being in the same state as her, and eventually losing all contact with her for more than 5 years. I never gave up though.”

While these contrasting Joshua Smiths may be explained by the he-said-she-said nature of the allegations, there is another possible explanation. On his Joshua Smith and the Motivation page in 2016, Mr. Smith opened up about his struggles with bipolar disorder in a critique on calling depression an illegitimate illness.

“Growing up I had rage issues, lots of down days, and as I got older I started having some pretty bad manic episodes. I know there is something there, so I have learned how to identify manic episodes, I’ve learned how to identify the down days, and I have learned how to try my hardest to keep them at bay when they pop up. Doesn’t mean that I’m not still affected by it, or I don’t have anymore episodes, or I’m just magically cured of it. It’s still there, all the time. I choose to combat it with the tools I have learned, but telling someone that it’s basically not real, is telling them they don’t have to identify it, and that is the harmful part.”

The Joshua Smith of 2018 is a man of license suspensions for unpaid child support and a man of optimism for the future by getting to work. He is a man of bitter custody wars and a man of exultations for a richening of the human spirit. Time will tell which one the party gets and whether the tools he has learned are effective.

62 thoughts on “Joshua Smith’s Normal Blue-Collar American Problems

  1. Seebeck

    Well, if he admits that he’s bipolar, has trouble paying his bills and being employed, then I sincerely doubt he will have the means, personality, or temperament to be Chair, on top of his lack of LNC experience.

    It sounds like he needs to get his personal life in order first and foremost.

  2. paulie

    Well, if he admits that he’s bipolar, has trouble paying his bills and being employed, then I sincerely doubt he will have the means, personality, or temperament to be Chair, on top of his lack of LNC experience.

    It sounds like he needs to get his personal life in order first and foremost.

    Agreed. When I met him at the Oklahoma convention a couple of months ago he had never even been at an LNC meeting, and if I remember had never watched the livecasts either.

    I’d be the last one to not understand having bipolar and other mental issues, being broke, having trouble with getting and keeping a job and paying bills, problems with drugs and alcohol, and trouble with maintaining relationships. I have faced many of those same struggles myself throughout my life.

    But is after all an executive position he is seeking, so what is his record in running a small business with employees, being a state chair, running a non-profit…any kind of leadership position?

    Add in being, at best, dangerously naive about the likes of Ryan Ramsey, Samuel “Luke von Trapp” Kinton, Tom Woods and Jeff “blood and soil” Deist, and defending the American Guard which promotes and sells white nationalist materials on its official website… and I have to say that electing this guy chair would be an unprecedented catastrophe for the LP.

  3. Walker

    Is it impolite to say that the national chair of a political party should be better than average? Should have been successful in previous endeavors? Should be more successful at managing his life? (One could also ask whether a president of the US should be better than average.)

  4. Paul

    Like most elections, this one won’t elect the person the party needs, but the one it deserves.

  5. Jill Pyeatt

    I am quite alarmed at what I’ve read about Mr. Smith. He must be very personable or charismatic to have acquired so many supporters, but he simply doesn’t have the past history of success we should be seeing in a candidate. I wish I had made the decision to attend this convention so I could cast a vote for our current chair, Nicholas Sarwark.

  6. paulie

    I don’t think his personal charisma is the main driving force behind his supporters. A lot of it is anger at Arvin and the fact that Nick did not get fully on board with the call to remove Arvin and voted against it. Some of it is because the “Mises” (Hoppe) institute and the paleo/alt right “libertarian” cult have a bunch of indignant fanboys who have a lot of time to whip themselves up into a frenzy online to defend Deist and Woods when Nick called them out for playing footsy with racism and fascism. Some of it is because Nick is not worshipful enough of Ron Paul and because the LP takes non-paleo positions on issues such as immigration, so they claim we are “fake libertarians” and “leftists” now. Bottom line, I think the support for Smith is more about people who are negative towards Sarwark than they are truly that into Smith, he has just become the vehicle for their negative campaign.

    In my case, the things that Smith supporters dislike the most about Sarwark and the rhetorical direction the LP has taken with him as chair – that is, marginally less right wing leaning – is what I like best about him. I think Sarwark is doing a good job, the best I have seen from an LP national chair in the time I have been paying close attention. He’s great at running smooth meetings, great as a media spokesman and stump speaker, does a great job on social media and national is making improvements in its materials and operations. Nick’s nuanced explanation of his vote on the Vohra suspension made sense to me.

    So I am voting to stick with Nick, and if we can’t do that, I’m ranking NOTA above Smith. I’m not yet sure whether there are any other current candidates I would rank above NOTA.

    That all is of course if I can manage to get there, which is a whole other mess right now.

  7. Andy

    How many people thought that this release from LP National, sucking up to students who walked out of class in order to protest in favor of stripping Americans of the right to keep and bear arms, was a good idea?

    Shouldn’t LP National have been educating those kids about why the right to keep and bear arms is an essential element for having a free society? Shouldn’t LP National have been organizing a counter-protest for kids who support the right to keep and bear arms?

    Why would they act like protesting against the right to keep and bear arms is a good thing, and why would they want people with that view to join the Libertarian Party, when the Libertarian Party should have the exact opposite view on this issue?

    I noticed that this story was never talked about on here.

    The Libertarian Party Has Officially Jumped The Shark With A Post Promoting Gun Control Protests

    https://steemkr.com/libertarian/@lpmisescaucus/the-libertarian-party-has-officially-jumped-the-shark-with-a-post-promoting-gun-control-protests

  8. Andy

    Paul keeps calling the LP Mises Caucus the Hoppe Caucus (as if that would be a bad thing, which I do not believe it would be), yet when I met Michael Heise, and Joshua Smith, and two other guys from the Mises Caucus (I can’t recall their names, but they were both at the LP of CA State Convention), none of them mentioned Hoppe in conversation until I brought him up. If that caucus was going to be named after somebody else, it would be more accurate to call it the Ron Paul Caucus than the Hoppe Caucus, as they are all big Ron Paul supporters (as am I for that matter), and unlike with Hoppe, they actually brought up Ron Paul without me bringing him up first. They want to recapture the spirit of the Ron Paul r3VOLution of 2007-2012 in the Libertarian Party, which would be a good thing. They are tired of seeing a watered down, do nothing LP, and I totally agree with them on that.

  9. Michael Wilson

    I keep seeing criticism of the LP and some of it is deserved given what happened a few years ago. But people also need to realize that it takes a few years to fix the damage and I think things have been improved. What I don’t see is anyone explaining what their experience is related to what needs to be done and how they intend to move forward. There seems to be a lot of emphasis on cryptocurrency but not much on ending the drug war or working on the healthcare issue, let alone ending the wars.

  10. Jim

    A group calling itself the Hoppe Caucus already exists and it predates the Mises Caucus. The Hoppe Caucus were the ones who invited Richard Spencer to the Students For Liberty Conference back in February, 2017.

    Back then, the Hoppe Caucus slogan was:

    “Purifying the muddied waters of libertarianism… so to speak.”

    Which tells you everything you need to know about the people who associate with them. But that was scrubbed and replaced with the less offensive line:

    “There can be no tolerance toward democrats and communists in a libertarian social order. They will have to be physically separated and removed from society.”

  11. Mikester Post author

    Walking out of class in defiance of compulsory attendance laws is an act of transgression and by doing so the students exhibited a spirit of anti authoritarianism. The release didn’t condone gun control it condoned a spirit of defiance and let them know that we share that spirit. I personally thought it was handled well, on a day when pro-2a advocacy took a media hit, it reclaimed some kind of dignity from it by finding a point of intersection and attempting to leverage it. I’m grateful they did and frankly the outrage was far more embarrassing. It made us look like a bunch of tone deaf, far right paranoiacs who lack any sense of nuance for complex issues and afraid of our own shadow.

  12. Andy

    I knew that there was some kind of Hope group, but I am not sure that it ever had anything to do with the LP. I think it did not, but I could be wrong.

  13. Andy

    Jim, the walkout was orchestrated, and teachers were involved with it. Also, walking out for a mass orchestrated event to ask government to strip Americans of the right to keep and bear arms is not anti-authority, it is servile and stupid. There is no honor in protesting for something like that, and it certainly has nothing to do with the Libertarian Party or libertarianism.

  14. Michael Wilson

    Andy some 2500 people showed up to support the 2nd Amendment in Olympia, WA in response to the protests. One of the speakers was a student who protested along with others at his local school. The event was organized by Allen Acosta who is a Libertarian candidate for the state legislature. The event was the largest one we know of nationally and he received inquiries from Europe and other cities in the U.S.

  15. Andy

    That is great that somebody in the LP of WA organized a counter protest to the gun grabbers. It is too bad that LP National dropped the ball.

  16. Michael Wilson

    Andy I am going to disagree with you on this to some extent. Maybe national could have sent out a news release and I have no idea if the did or didn’t send one. The burden is on the state parties to do these things. We want a grass root organization and that comes down to the grassroots doing things such as putting together rally’s such as one for 2A. It would have been difficult for the LP office to get a lot of people for a rally but it should have been fairly easy for many of the states to do so. There is no reason the big states such as California and Texas didn’t put on a rally each. 25 states putting on rally might have made an impression.

  17. Andy

    You are letting LP National off the hook way too easy. That release was one of the worst I’ve ever seen. Everyone I have heard comment about it, outside of a few peopls here, has commuted negatively. Coddling gun grabbers, and in particular, praising people who want to strip us of our right to keep and bear arms, is not the way to go. This does absolutely nothing to build the party, or spread the message of liberty, and I do not see how anyone could even consider the to be a point of controversy among libertarians.

  18. Thomas L. Knapp

    I thought the LP release on the student walkouts could have been better. It could have placed more emphasis on “gun control” being antithetical to the freedom the students were otherwise exercising and seemed to be calling for.

    It wasn’t terrible, though.

    “Ask government to strip people of the right to travel, work, and live wherever they can find someone to rent or sell them a place to live is not anti-authority, it is servile and stupid.”

    Fixed, no charge.

  19. Andy

    Tom, there is no right for people to cross onto property to which they have no claim, so I am not asking government to strip anyone of any rights.

    Is Disney World “oppressing” me if they won’t let me in if I can’t afford a ticket? Are the Girl Scouts “oppressing” me if I can’t join them at their camp ground? Is a convent of nuns “oppressing” me if I can’t move into their convent? Can I join an American Indian tribe and move onto their reservation if I am not a member of their tribe, and if they tell me to get lost, are they “oppressing” me? Is Vatican City “oppressing” somebody if they tell them they can’t move in unless they are Catholic? Is Hooters “oppressing” men if they won’t hire them as waiters? Is a senior citizens home “oppressing” people if they won’t let them move in because they do not meet the age requirement?

    Tom is inventing “rights” that do not exist. Latecomers have no claim to already settled property.

  20. Anthony Dlugos

    “Latecomers have no claim to already settled property.”

    Latecomers?

    Don’t you mean “mooslim terrorists and swarthy mexicans who take our white women”?

  21. Andy

    Tom’s logic, or lack thereof, brings me back to the hypothetical questions about Iceland, a small island nation of around 334,000 people. I previously posed the question of whether or not 1 million Italians or 1 million Russians had the right to move to Iceland, which would make them the new majority, by a lot, and make the island pretty darn crowded. I would say that they do not have the right to do this.

    Are the one million Italians or one million Russians being “oppressed” by the people of Iceland if they, through their representative government, tell the one million Italians or one million Russians that they do not want them there? I would say no.

  22. Andy

    Anthony, stop with the race baiting. You have already admitted that declaring open borders and unlimited, no questions asked, immigration, is not feasible, and is a losing issue politically. So this means that you or your candidates would also call for some kind of immigration restrictions.

    Furthermore, Mexico does not have open borders, they regularly deport illegal immigrants, and it is in their Constitution that it is illegal to have an immigration policy that alters their demographics.

    Saudi Arabia has a border fence, and they deport people as well.

    All of these nationalities you wave around and try to use for race baiting and guilt tripping all do the same thing, and a lot of them are even more hardcore about it.

    India has a border fence and a racist caste system.

    Japan rarely lets any migrants in, and it is extremely difficult to get Japanese citizenship (Japan is like 97% ethnic Japanese, maybe higher).

    Israel has a border wall, and a Jews only immigration policy, backed up by DNA tests, and they regularly deport illegal immigrants.

    I could go on with more examples, but hopefully people get the point.

  23. Andy

    Just to clarify my response to Tom above, I think that Tom and I agree that coercive states are not the most ideal way for society to be arranged. Even so, that is the world in which we live, but even if it was not, I believe that people would still form groups, and that people would get excluded from places.

  24. Paul

    There Andy goes again, pushing his tyrannical Marxist anti-immigration views.

    Communism kills Andy, you really need to abandon Marx’s failed communist anti-immigration positions – or as I like to call it – “using government force and coercion to protect you from foreigners coming to close.”

  25. Andy

    There goes Paul, spouting his uninformed views. I already posted proof that Marxists push for mass migration and open borders. You must have slept during that class.

  26. Libertydave

    Andy,

    It doesn’t matter how many times you repeat your lies that people who use public roads are trespassing, it is still a lie.

  27. Andy

    LibertyDave, if you were to sneak into Disney World and use their roads, would you be trespassing?

    If you were to sneak into a gated housing community, or condominium complex, and use their roads, or their swimming pool, or golf course, would you be trespassing?

    Did a latecomer from say Pakistan or Nigeria or Egypt or Korea pay for the roads in the USA?

  28. Andy

    Since LibertyDave thinks that foreign latecomers have a “right” to use taxpayer funded roads in the USA, without going through proper legal channels, do they also have the “right” to collect Social Security here, even though they never paid into the system? Do they have the “right” to use taxpayer funded schools and hospitals here? Do they have the “right” to just waltz in and start voting in elections here, without having gone through the legal naturalization process?

  29. Andy

    Anthony, I will watch that video later (I am not sure if I have seen this one or not). I will say that I have done a lot of research on this issue, and I know that statistics are frequently skewed by not counting the offspring of immigrants into the equation, as they get counted as American citizens.

  30. Paul

    Andy,

    Marx was very clear in his anti-immigration views in what he described as, “The Irish Question.” He saw immigration as a tool of the bourgeoisie, and against the proletariat, or something crazy like that.

    Replace bourgeoisie with “globalist” and proletariat with “middle class,” and you have the same Marxist garbage, using right-wing words instead of left-wing words.

    Congratulations Andy, you have become the Marxist infiltrator whom you have come to fear.

  31. Anthony Dlugos

    Just like the rest of the alt-right, Andy’s anti-immigrant views might be more fascist in presentation than communist, since its race-based, where Marx saw a class struggle.

    Note that the alt-right incursion into libertarianism has an archaic fixation on communist infiltrators, as if this is 1986 and Andy is walking around in his Miami Vice-inspired pastel suit jacket. That, in addition to the obsession with borders, demonstrates an innate aversion to true individual freedom.

    The attract to libertarianism for these unfortunate souls is probably its promise of freedom to hate.

  32. Paul

    I think the attraction to libertarian ideas is the same as it is for freedom-loving Democrats and Republicans. They see the things they want as natural entitlements, and everything else is big government, corruption, oppression, tyranny, etc.

  33. Paul

    Anthony,

    But I do generally agree with you, that it’s repackaged Marxism, replacing class struggle with racial, “cultural,” national, etc. struggle.

  34. Andy

    Anthony, you keep calling my views “anti-immigrant” when I have clearly stated multiple times that my goal is not to end immigration, but rather to reform it so the country is no longer a magnet for Marxists, theocrats, criminals, and welfare seekers. You have stated yourself that “open borders” and unlimited no questions asked immigration is not a feasible position, and that it is akin to political suicide for a candidate to advocate it. So you yourself are an advocate of some kind of controls/restrictions on immigration.

    If we lived in an ancap society, it would not mean anyone goes anywhere. It would mean that property owners would regulate migration, unless of course you were talking about unclaimed property, but once somebody homesteaded that property and claimed it, they would be the property owner.

  35. Paul

    To better illustrate my point…

    Karl “Andy” Marx says:

    Anthony, you keep calling my views “anti-immigrant” when I have clearly stated multiple times that my goal is not to end immigration, but rather to reform it so the country is no longer a magnet for capitalists, theocrats, criminals, and rent seekers. You have stated yourself that “open borders” and unlimited no questions asked immigration is not a feasible position, and that it is akin to political suicide for a candidate to advocate it. So you yourself are an advocate of some kind of controls/restrictions on immigration.

    If we lived in a communist society, it would not mean anyone goes anywhere. It would mean that workers would regulate migration, unless of course you were talking about unclaimed resources, but once somebody added labor to that resource and claimed it, they would be the worker.

  36. Paul

    maybe the last part would better be written as:
    “that would be their ‘possession.'”

  37. Andy

    Idiotic statement from Paul. It is people who are of a Marxist ideology who are pushing for mass a
    welfare statist migration right now.

  38. Paul

    Marx was against the free movement of people, as the free market interfered with his plans for a communist revolution. Communist countries like East Germany were well known for their immigration restrictions.

    Calling people “Marxist” on issues like immigration, when you’re the one who has taken the Marxist position, is patently absurd. Just because you replace “class struggle” with some sort of bizarre political/racial/ethnic/religious struggle doesn’t mean you’re preaching anything less oppressive. Even Marx did that when he criticized Irish immigration.

    tl;dr: Commie Andy is being a commie again.

  39. paulie

    Paulie, what is holding you back from getting there?

    There were some transportation issues. I got here, two days and some hours after I was planning to.

  40. paulie

    yet when I met Michael Heise, and Joshua Smith, and two other guys from the Mises Caucus (I can’t recall their names, but they were both at the LP of CA State Convention), none of them mentioned Hoppe in conversation until I brought him up.

    Did Joshua Smith tell you he used to run Augustus Invictus’ sock account or share his opinion of the American Guard?

    Oh wait, you wouldn’t see that as a problem either.

  41. paulie

    Walking out of class in defiance of compulsory attendance laws is an act of transgression and by doing so the students exhibited a spirit of anti authoritarianism.

    They were not walking out in defiance. Schools were officially allowing and even encouraging them to walk out.

  42. paulie

    I knew that there was some kind of Hope group,

    There’s no hope with Hoppe, just like the “Mises” caucus and “Mises” institute don’t represent the ideas of Ludwig von Mises. In truth it would be the Lew Rockwell Caucus, or the Ron Paul Newsletters Caucus, but Hoppe is the main intellectual impetus behind the diseased ideas it pushes.

  43. paulie

    There Andy goes again, pushing his tyrannical Marxist anti-immigration views.

    He can’t help it. He doesn’t realize Hoppe is a Marxist and has swallowed the bullshit hook, line and sinker. Just like the Marxists and the Marxist Hoppe, Andy fails to distinguish between private property and government property. All property belongs to the government as its private property, say all Marxists everywhere. Hoppe and Andy sneak this in through the door of immigration. All property within the country is treated as the private property of the government in order to misdefine crossing government borders as trespassing Once that concession is made, the rest of Marxism follows logically from defining the whole country as the property of the state.

  44. paulie

    Commie Andy is being a commie again.

    Resolved, Comrade Andy should be taken to basic libertarianism re-education labor camp.

  45. paulie

    Back on topic: I wonder how that chair race is going.

    Hard to say. I haven’t been around enough to get a good sense of it. I hear a NOTA movement has a lot of support, but no idea which chair candidates would be tapped if NOTA wins.

  46. Andy

    Augustus Invictus did come up briefly in conversation one of the times I talked to Josh Smith. Smith said that he had interviewed Augustus, but he seemed to think that Augustus had gone out on the deep end (or something like that). This sounds like an attempt at a guilt-by-association smear to me.

  47. Andy

    Hans-Hermann Hoppe is being brought up like he is some kind of devil. I wonder if Murray Rothbard was still alive if he would get the same treatment.

  48. paulie

    This sounds like an attempt at a guilt-by-association smear to me.

    LOL. Smith keeps popping up hanging out with white nationalists, making excuses for white nationalists,tagging a bunch of white nationalists into facebook discussions, defending organizations with white nationalist materials promoted on their official websites, running sock accounts for white nationalists, etc, etc, etc

    So yes there is definitely an association, and pointing it out is not a smear. At what point do enough associations constitute no longer a smear? In my opinion that point is long passed in this case.

    Also: Invictus did not go off the deep end. He was always off the deep end before, during and after Smith working with him. At first the official excuse was that Invictus was a former white nationalist who had become a libertarian, later it became that he was formerly a libertarian who had become a white nationalist. Which is it? Both? Come on.

    The reality is that a lot of white nationalists and people who play footsy with them try to maintain what they think is plausible deniability. It’s not a smear to point out that those on both sides of that “plausible deniability” line maintain multiple associations on both sides before, during and after they respectively cross back and forth across that line into open bigotry.

  49. paulie

    . I wonder if Murray Rothbard was still alive if he would get the same treatment.

    Well, at least Rothbard had some periods when he drifted into something other than pure drivel, despite starting out as a Strom Thurmond supporter and ending up writing accolades of the likes of David Duke. Hoppe has had no such redeeming periods in his history.

  50. Andy

    Most of the people who criticize Hans Hoppe have read little or none of his work.

  51. paulie

    I’ve read a fair amount of his work, and others here have quoted him quite a bit as well as summaries thereof. Like the original works of Marx his prose is quite turgid and lengthy, and it’s not necessary to read the collected works of, say, Marx or for that matter to read Mein Kampf from cover to cover to know that one opposes the ideas expressed therein based on their shorter summaries elsewhere.

  52. Pingback: Chairman Candidates Go to War at LNC Debate - 71 Republic

  53. paulie

    I’m glad Joshua Smith is not chair. Starting out with a lower office on LNC will give him a chance to learn and grow and perhaps he will prove those of us who opposed him wrong. I hope he will.

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