October 2018 Open Thread

Our monthly open thread. Post news tips about alt parties and independent candidates, discuss any story that should be posted here but has not yet been posted, or even delve into completely off-topic stuff…just avoid quarantined thread subject matter and things that could get us and/or you into legal trouble such as threats, libel, and copyright infringement.

News tips can also be sent to the IPR writers who have chosen to make their contact info available at http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/about/.

85 thoughts on “October 2018 Open Thread

  1. Melinda Pillsbury-Foster

    Well, since you asked.

    1992
    The most significant year in the last half of the 20th Century
    What you don’t know is destroying America

    Until now you did not really know what happened. Because of this, the next 36 years which have sent America’s economy into a tail spin, enmeshed us in constant war, made millions homeless, and taken the world to the brink of disaster appeared to come out of nowhere. Look at the list below.

    • Bill Clinton would never have been elected president.
    • Bush W. would never have been elected president.
    • War on Iraq would not have happened.
    • Our economy would not hinge on the Federal Reserve System
    • The economy, world-wide, would be stable today.
    • We would have moved to sustainable construction
    • Millions would not have lost their homes.
    • We would all have affordable health care, and this would be under our control as individuals.

    Would your life be better now if our economy was stable, growing, no longer under the control of the Federal Reserve? Its not too late to change our direction.

    FLASH BACK – 1992

    In Mid-March 1992 Clinton had only $50,000 left and a HQ bus. On March 12 Bill and Hillary spent time at Hillary’s High School Alma Mater, Maine South High School near Chicago despite their win in the Southern Super Primary the day before. The Clintons were ready to wind down their campaign and return to Arkansas.

    Bill and Hillary had been talking about the presidency for years, looking for the right time but the money had not appeared, even after their win in Southern Super Tuesday on March 11th. Opposition was down to was Paul Tsongas and Jerry Brown.

    It was 1992 or never. This was necessary to stay ahead of the scandals he and Hillary knew loomed. Bill Clinton was, and remains, a sexual predator. He could never have been elected today, now that the MeToo! Consciousness has awakened. Bill and Hillary knew they had a limited window of opportunity determined by Bill’s sexual habits.
    On January 26th Bill and Hillary Clinton appeared on 60 Minutes to deny Bill had carried on a long affair with Gennifer Flowers. Now, we know this was a carefully orchestrated lie.
    Money loomed was an insurmountable issue for Bill Clinton.

    Decision-time was coming up fast. The Clintons had reached out to the Democratic Labor establishment. They had to find the means to sell Bill and his carefully manufactured agenda to American voters.
    Two days after Clinton’s appearance on 60 Minutes, during George H. W. Bush’s State of the Union Address, only 1M of 29-Million phone calls to CBS via touch-tone phone buttons for #1 AGREE or #2 DISAGREE had gotten through. Millions of calls crashed to deadtone in 14 phone regions of the Bell System.
    The Clintons and Greer likely spent January to mid-March looking for solutions to the problem of rapidly increasing their media presence while staving off scandals and making enough money to put gas in their bus.
    How could they sell Clinton to the mass-audience with the money they had available and do so as a stream of propaganda without the problems caused when Bill was confronted with facts about his behavior? This is when Billary received a fax of the PhoneVoter TV Network Proposal.
    Frank Greer had come onboard as Clinton’s Media Consultant. Despite the title, Greer knew nothing about satellite technology as a distribution system. Satellite was the only way, but it was way beyond their means.
    How could they afford it? The answer they chose stole your voice in politics and send us over the cliff, economically.

    Click below
    The Story of PhoneVoter 1992
    http://www.phonevoter.us/get-real-debates

  2. DJ

    MP-F: What you don’t know is destroying America

    Until now you did not really know what happened. Because of this, the next 36 years which have sent America’s economy into a tail spin, enmeshed us in constant war, made millions homeless, and taken the world to the brink of disaster appeared to come out of nowhere. Look at the list below.

    • Bill Clinton would never have been elected president.
    • Bush W. would never have been elected president.
    • War on Iraq would not have happened.
    • Our economy would not hinge on the Federal Reserve System
    • The economy, world-wide, would be stable today.
    • We would have moved to sustainable construction
    • Millions would not have lost their homes.
    • We would all have affordable health care, and this would be under our control as individuals.

    Me: Speculation on your list, or wishful thinking. That said, you’ve come to the wrong forum if pointing out the Lefts’ indiscretions is your goal- they are the paragons of virtue in this forum, pure as the driven snow. Clinton is so yesterday. Today is Kavanaugh., because Trump- heritage Foundation, Mises, Lew Rockwell et al. The past is irrelevant- neocons on both sides are responsible for where we are and it began in 1913 with a Leftist as POTUS- but, that doesn’t matter to the Leftist apologists here, or anywhere for that matter. What matters is- Left, perceived or real, is pure as the driven snow. The wrath of the Left may rain down on you- but, Trump. Obama was/is a saint, so that means the Left is filled with saints- because Trump. Kavanaugh lies, the left doesn’t. Kavanaugh attacked women, the left doesn’t. Trump lies, the left doesn’t. Trump isn’t fit to be POTUS- that’s a status only the Left is worthy of- because Trump. LOL-

  3. DJ

    The Western Left-

    Father calls out son’s ‘political spectrum’ assignment for pushing biased agenda onto students: ‘This is 1984-esque propaganda’

    Matt DeFouw was taken aback when his son, a high school student, texted him a picture of an assignment that had been given to his class. The 10th-grade students at Valleyview Secondary School in Kamloops, a city in British Columbia, Canada, were supposed to be learning about differing views in partisan politics — but instead, they seemed to be getting schooled on the biased political stance of the person who had prepared the lesson.

    DeFouw took to his Facebook page on Monday to post his son’s assignment, writing “I cannot let this slide. It must be exposed, discussed, and then expediently rectified.” Explaining the image, he said his son whited out his answers and wrote the teacher-provided answers in their place.

    https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/father-calls-sons-political-spectrum-assignment-pushing-political-agenda-onto-students-1984-esque-propaganda-163552305.html

  4. DJ

    CM/S: Speaking of the Clinton’s, here’s an interesting article inferring Brett Kavanaugh gave them cover in the Vince Foster investigation.

    Me: Interesting article- puts me in mind of JFK and also Leonard Peltier- not to mention Waco, and Ruby Ridge. FBI.

    If it is true it also shows Kavanaugh as part of the US Left- the face of big gov’t. It also shows there is not a dimes worth of difference between Republicans and Democrats inside the beltway. Both are corrupt to the core. It also makes me wonder why Feinstein didn’t bring this up in the original Kavanaugh hearings- hmmm inquiring minds would like to know. But, we know she wouldn’t/couldn’t as it would expose the leeches in DC for what they are.

  5. William T. Forrest

    Wow, y’all are quiet today. What happened, did Redlich finally kick Frankel out too? 🙂

  6. Michael Wilson

    I see that the Working Families party is about to morph into the Democratic/Socialist machine. If Libertarians tried they might find that they could do more for the working people in this country than any other group but that might scare some of the conservatives in the movement.

  7. William T. Forrest

    I think you are probably right Michael Wilson. What more specifically do you suggest as far as issues to emphasize or language to use in candidate messaging, in case any candidates who agree with you are reading but don’t know how to do that?

  8. William T. Forrest

    Good point about his subsequent nonsense, but he nevertheless made lots of good points in that piece from 2011. Which of them do you disagree with, if any?

  9. dL

    Which of them do you disagree with, if any?

    None of them. I consider conservatism to be a mortal enemy of libertarianism. But Wilkinson deserves no due…

  10. Jim

    Ron Paul stopped reaching a new audience in 2013. Whatever good or harm he may or may not have done to libertarianism back then, he is no longer a driving factor.

    Hoppe has been a bigger problem in recent years. Attacking Ron Paul to stop the influence of Hoppe isn’t going to work.

  11. William T. Forrest

    “Andy Craig

    When asked about it by Matt Welch, Tom Woods gave two answers to deflect regarding the litany of noxiousness he’s been pushing on the movement and the Libertarian Party.

    First, he went on a long tangent about how his League of the South days were all the way back in the 1990s (practically ancient history!) and he was more of a paleoconservative then. He heavily downplays how outright racist the League was and how heavily involved he was with it, while at the same time insisting it’s somehow unfair to refer to something that old. As if he’s ever stopped pandering to white nationalists.

    Second, he tried to play off his promotion of Hoppe, North, Molyneux, etc., as if it was just his attitude to interview anybody. Which is of course ludicrous: he steadfastly refuses to have any sort of interview or debate with anybody who’ll challenge him about these things (such as Nick Sarwark), but he heaps glowing praise on virulent racists and violent theocrats. He does shows dedicated to praising Hoppe, Molyneux, and Cantwell. He’s a longtime close associate of Rockwell and Deist. North is his coauthor! These are the people whose morally abhorrent ideas he promotes, and none of it has anything to do with being “anti-war.”

    While we’re on the topic: he has never had any particular focus on being anti-war, so it’s downright bizarre to label him as such in the headline. I don’t doubt that he is anti-war, but he’s never put half as much energy into that issue as he does pushing immigration restrictionists, socially conservative authoritarians, and “race realists.”

    His answers were simply dishonest, and he should be persona non grata to anybody who doesn’t want the liberty movement to be indistinguishable from the worst, most vile strains on the far-right. I’ve never heard a convincing reason why I should regard him as any more of a “libertarian” than I would Richard Spencer or David Duke.

    I can at least say this: I’m proud of the Libertarian Party for rejecting his botched attempt at a takeover, and if we have to we’ll send him packing again in 2020.”

    Amen!

  12. Jim

    Andy Craig “I’ve never heard a convincing reason why I should regard (Tom Woods) as any more of a “libertarian” than I would Richard Spencer”

    Richard Spencer “I don’t think we have rights to really anything. No individual has a right outside of a collective community. You have rights, not eternally or given by God, or by nature. Ultimately the state gives those rights to you. The state is the source of rights, not the individual.”

    Tom Woods “They would be odd libertarians indeed to think people have no rights until a group of people wearing funny hats declare that they do, especially given that your friends would now need to explain how, if there is no such thing as rights prior to the state, these people get the right to establish a state and start barking out commands in the first place.”

  13. Thomas L. Knapp

    Andy Craig’s description of the Woods interview, particularly vis a vis the League of the South, differs substantially from what I thought I was watching.

    In fact, I think Woods would have served himself better on the whole “won’t sign the anti-fascist statement and why would anyone expect me to” debacle to have signed it and linked to an explanation of the LoTS thing like the one he gives here as a great example of why such a statement was necessary.

    Here’s the interview in its entirety. I think it’s worth discussing, especially where it touches on the LP.

  14. Chuck Moulton

    Apparently this site “upgraded” the commenting system — amd I ise that term loosely because 99% of “upgrades” make things worse and this case is no exception.

    It’s clear there is a change because (unlike before) the email, name, website fields don’t appear until you write in the “leave a reply” box. I have no changed my phone OS or browser version recently — or in many years.

    Many of the old bugs have returned. When I leave a comment, submitting it does not show a new comment. I have to try submitting 4 or 5 times on average until it tells me there is a duplicate comment. It takes an average of 2 hours to see a new comment that I left show up on the page.

    Even worse, the old bug has resurfaced whereby suddenly characters I am typing will not register and I have to click outside the reply input box then back in the input box several times to make typing work again.

    Whatever change IPR made that introduced all these bugs, it SUCKS. Please roll back to a working version ASAP.

  15. paulie Post author

    In fact, I think Woods would have served himself better on the whole “won’t sign the anti-fascist statement and why would anyone expect me to” debacle to have signed it and linked to an explanation of the LoTS thing like the one he gives here as a great example of why such a statement was necessary.

    Yes, but that’s not the game he is playing – nor is it the game the paleo”libertarian”/alt right slide has been playing for nearly 30 years now. They always try to have it both ways – appeal to bigots as much as possible with a wink and a nod while maintaining some semi-plausible deniability. When it crosses the line into the undeniably, straightforwardly obvious, it’s memory holed, and then it’s right back to dog whistles.

    Who benefits: bigots, and a few people’s pockets.
    At the expense of: libertarianism and its prospects with much larger possibly available audiences that are repelled by this, directly or indirectly, and by the people it attracts to nominal libertarianism.

  16. paulie Post author

    Andy Craig “I’ve never heard a convincing reason why I should regard (Tom Woods) as any more of a “libertarian” than I would Richard Spencer”

    Richard Spencer “I don’t think we have rights to really anything. No individual has a right outside of a collective community. You have rights, not eternally or given by God, or by nature. Ultimately the state gives those rights to you. The state is the source of rights, not the individual.”

    Tom Woods “They would be odd libertarians indeed to think people have no rights until a group of people wearing funny hats declare that they do, especially given that your friends would now need to explain how, if there is no such thing as rights prior to the state, these people get the right to establish a state and start barking out commands in the first place.”

    You have a point there. Spencer is no longer a libertarian-leaning anything. But let’s not forget that he started out as a Ron Paul activist, and that he came up with the term and concept “alt right” together with Paul Gottfried, who is frequently published by Lew Rockwell.

    In turn, the long standing bigots have joined forces with trolls who “do it for the lulz” and have used Ron Paul campaigns, Campaign for Liberty, YAL, anarchocapitalist and libertarian discussion fora of all sorts, the LP (often through the Mises Caucus), the Mises Institute and its orbit, fan fora of podcasts such as Molyneux and Tom Woods, as well as the Trump movement to recruit people into the “paleolibertarian to alt right pipeline” which Spencer followed himself. And which Tom Woods has helped pave, I believe consciously, along with the rest of the paleo”libertarian” movement – as was laid out explicitly in the founding statements of the paleolibertarian strategy by Rothbard and Rockwell.

    The Alex Jones type conspiracy circles are also a common recruiting ground for these people. Once someone gets more heavily embroiled in those types of thoughts and discussions, it’s easier to get them to take seriously and accept conspiracy theories about Jews, “white genocide,” and so on. It’s only a half step to go from “international bankers” and “UN population control” and “zionist lobby” to “Jews are bringing in third world mud people to wipe out the white race herp derp.” No coincidence that there’s a ton of overlap between this and online trolling, support for Ron Paul and various outgrowths of his campaigns, fanatical Trump (and frequently Putin) fandom, neoconfederate fetishism…and Tom Woods is very much a facilitator of these intersecting orbits.

  17. paulie Post author

    Jacob Ryan shared a post.

    Parents/aunt’s uncles/etc be careful who the kids in your life are talking to online the far right has been using trolling and memes to lure kids into white nationalism/identitarianism/whatever they wanna call themselves now

    Michelle Dione

    Dear white families, this is the leader of Identity Evropa talking about how easy it is to recruit your teenagers. They talk about how schools indoctrinate white kids to believing in hating their white culture and get rid of all white people (this isn’t true) They are talking about stopping schools that teach the truth about colonialism. Indoctrinating a generation. Please talk to your kids about who they talk to online and on campuses. Tell them it’s okay to be themselves every culture has its bad sides but they stay bad when we don’t a accept the truth. I’ve heard this many times now: “4Chan changed my friend into a political extremist”. Feel to share this post and don’t be scared we can stop them.

    Vlad Kremlin: they’ve also been using rational arguments, be very careful

    Sharon Presley: Don’t you mean seemingly rational? There is nothing rational about their crap.

    Vlad Kremlin: Well demographics for whites worldwide doesn’t exactly look rosy in 100 years, is this something we don’t need to address?

    Paulie: No, we don’t need to address it, other than to accept that it’s a good thing and help hasten it as much as possible. Globalization is a good thing. Race mixing is a good thing. Culture mixing is a good thing. Trade, travel and mass e/immigration are good things. Stop fighting it, start celebrating it. The sooner the races are blended the sooner we lose something stupid to fight over, and it’s a natural consequence of technological progress.

    And in the unlikely event that you are actually Russian rather than just fetishizing a dictator and his support for theocracy, ethnonationalism, authoritarianism, racism, chauvinism and bigotry both in Russia and around the world, including in the US: Otyabis’ i poshol ka ty nakhuy, blyat.

  18. dL

    amd I ise that term loosely because 99% of “upgrades” make things worse and this case is no exception.

    well, no, otherwise one would still be using punch cards and magnetic tape. It is true, however, that untested changes pushed to production can often prove disastrous.

  19. dL

    Here’s the interview in its entirety. I think it’s worth discussing, especially where it touches on the LP.

    Woods says his detractors don’t listen to his podcasts. Well, he may be correct. I don’t listen to them. I don’t have the time even I were so inclined. I read so much faster than I can listen to stuff, and he doesn’t make the transcripts available unless you are a paying subscriber.

    Ok, one may say, it costs money to accurately transcribe a conversation. Fair enough. But it is also fair to ask if one is under any obligation to listen to his podcasts, particularly if one can get a sense of where he is coming from via his written words and his social media posts. If those things don’t match up, then where does the fault for the interpretation error lie? If I came across as a reactionary on my twitter account, and someone called me out on it, and I responded: “heh, low IQ nitwit, didn’t you read my blog post from July, 2013,” is that a fair rejoinder? No, it is not. It resolves nothing. In fact, it only introduces a new question whether or not I’m simply a con man.

    And let us be clear. Unequivocally, the Mises Inst. by way of Hans Herman Hoppe, is an alt-right pipeline. There is no “if, ands or buts” about it to any honest observer with an IQ above 60. And I’m not going to Tom Woods for the source material on that. I’m going to the man himself, Hoppe. Generally, I’m someone who cares much more where you stand today than where you stood yesterday. After all, few of us got it right as soon as we exited our mother’s wombs. If Woods came out and said “Hoppe, his contributions to Austrian economics notwithstanding, is dead wrong on race realism, immigration and the dictatorship of the taxpayer. Those views are an anathema to libertarianism proper.” Then I wouldn’t give much of rat’s ass about his past associations. But he doesn’t do that. And I’m pretty sure if he did do that, his subscriber base would shrink to near nothing. So, who knows what Woods really thinks. But I have pretty good clue which views butters his bread.

  20. Jim

    Paulie ” the long standing bigots have joined forces with trolls who “do it for the lulz” and have used Ron Paul campaigns, Campaign for Liberty, YAL, anarchocapitalist and libertarian discussion fora of all sorts, the LP (often through the Mises Caucus), the Mises Institute and its orbit, fan fora of podcasts such as Molyneux and Tom Woods, as well as the Trump movement to recruit people into the “paleolibertarian to alt right pipeline” which Spencer followed himself. And which Tom Woods has helped pave, I believe consciously, along with the rest of the paleo”libertarian” movement – as was laid out explicitly in the founding statements of the paleolibertarian strategy by Rothbard and Rockwell.”

    It’s possible Tom Woods is heading in the opposite direction – he began as a PaleoConservative and has moved towards Libertarian.

    There is a PaleoLibertarian to Alt-Right pipeline, but there is a PaleoConservative to Alt-Right super highway. It’s the PaleoConservatives who are the ultimate source. The PaleoLibertarians are just a detour that some take which can either lead to the white nationalist faction of the Alt-Right or to Libertarianism without the PaleoConservative influence.

    Whether Tom Woods turns toward Libertarian or Alt-Right from here – I don’t think even he knows for sure. But maybe I’m not the best judge of that. I’ve listened to around 15 of his 1,260 podcasts.

    Hating on PaleoLibertarians from the Libertarian side while the White Nationalist Alt-Right reaches out to them from the other just guarantees which way they’ll turn.

  21. Jim

    Paulie “Race mixing is a good thing… Stop fighting it, start celebrating it. The sooner the races are blended the sooner we lose something stupid to fight over”

    What? It’s a thing. It isn’t good or bad. There’s no value attached. If some people want to do it, fine. If not, also fine. It doesn’t have to be encouraged, discouraged, celebrated, or mourned.

  22. paulie Post author

    Unequivocally, the Mises Inst. by way of Hans Herman Hoppe, is an alt-right pipeline.

    Bingo. To the extent it also works in the other direction, that’s not a good thing either. For every half-converted fash/bigot who starts to think of himself as a libertarian, gets involved in the LP and/or libertarian discussions and activities, etc, we are driving away many more potential converts who want nothing to do with such people and opinions even tangentially.

    If Woods came out and said “Hoppe, his contributions to Austrian economics notwithstanding, is dead wrong on race realism, immigration and the dictatorship of the taxpayer. Those views are an anathema to libertarianism proper.” Then I wouldn’t give much of rat’s ass about his past associations. But he doesn’t do that. And I’m pretty sure if he did do that, his subscriber base would shrink to near nothing. So, who knows what Woods really thinks. But I have pretty good clue which views butters his bread.

    Agreed.

  23. paulie Post author

    Hating on PaleoLibertarians from the Libertarian side while the White Nationalist Alt-Right reaches out to them from the other just guarantees which way they’ll turn.

    I think it’s better for us if they turn straight up fash. A lot of them are headed that way anyway, and their libertarian detours and regurgitations just besmirch us to the much larger available audiences we drive away thanks to their involvement and influence.

  24. paulie Post author

    Paulie “Race mixing is a good thing… Stop fighting it, start celebrating it. The sooner the races are blended the sooner we lose something stupid to fight over”

    What? It’s a thing. It isn’t good or bad. There’s no value attached. If some people want to do it, fine. If not, also fine. It doesn’t have to be encouraged, discouraged, celebrated, or mourned.

    Personally I like it, but not just as an active participant. I think it’s actually doing the world good to blend the races and cross-pollinate cultures. Increased international trade, travel and immigrations are a good thing. Insularity, isolation, inbreeding and xenophobia have the opposite effect. Even genetically, crossing strains strengthens a crop or herd, and I don’t think it’s different with humans. The divisions, lack of contact and lack of understanding, besides impoverishing us culturally and economically, also lead to war. Cultures benefit from coming into contact with each other, learning and evolving. Stasis is bad for evolution, it denies needed opportunities for growth.

  25. Jim

    I’m not looking it up, but I heard once that the dangers of inbreeding disappear by second cousin or so.

    I don’t believe that being from different races creates a lack of understanding. I don’t believe that skin color dictates thought process.

    And I’m pretty sure that race doesn’t have much to do with war, given that the bloodiest wars in history have been either between different groups of white people or different groups of Asian people.

    I just don’t see a need to conflate race mixing, which I see as neutral, with specialization and trade, which has clear and undeniable benefits.

  26. Jim

    Paulie “I think it’s better for us if they turn straight up fash. ”

    Maybe in the short run, but in the long run I don’t think it’s better for anyone to grow the ranks of fascists. I would rather convert them to our side.

  27. paulie Post author

    Maybe in the short run, but in the long run I don’t think it’s better for anyone to grow the ranks of fascists. I would rather convert them to our side.

    Keeping that two way door wide open grows their movement a lot more than it grows ours, and for us it comes at the expense of bringing in a lot of other people who would be more reachable otherwise. In other words the racist/fascist movement benefits from having a relationship with the libertarian movement while the libertarian movement suffers.

  28. paulie Post author

    I’m not looking it up, but I heard once that the dangers of inbreeding disappear by second cousin or so.

    It becomes less pronounced but in general, crossing strains or herds strengthens them.

    I don’t believe that being from different races creates a lack of understanding. I don’t believe that skin color dictates thought process.

    Two different things. Living in isolation from other races is what causes lack of understanding. Not getting to know people from a different background, not interacting with them much or at all. Once that takes place to a significant extent the rest takes care of itself. Race mixing is inevitable, may as well lay back (or lean forward or…) and enjoy it 🙂

    And I’m pretty sure that race doesn’t have much to do with war, given that the bloodiest wars in history have been either between different groups of white people or different groups of Asian people.

    But that’s also as a result of lack of trade, or lack of understanding and mingling between cultures, of dividing people up into ethnicities and nation-states and fostering hatred between them.

    I just don’t see a need to conflate race mixing, which I see as neutral, with specialization and trade, which has clear and undeniable benefits.

    All of it is a natural part of the globalization that has come about due to technological progress (and not as conspiracists maintain due to some kind of nefarious central planning by a secretive global elite). Cutting red tape would only hasten this progress.

  29. DJ

    The face of the left-

    Hillary Clinton contradicts Monica Lewinsky’s claim that affair with Bill Clinton was ‘gross abuse of power’

    Hillary Clinton has defended her husband against accusations that he abused his power with an affair with Monica Lewinsky in the 1990s.

    Ms Lewinsky said in a recent interview that she had been moved by the stories brought forth by women in the #MeToo movement, and had realised that former President Bill Clinton had abused his position of power when they had an affair.

    Ms Clinton, who stood by her husband after those accusations came forward, disagreed during an interview on “CBS Sunday Morning”.

    “In retrospect, do you think Bill should’ve resigned in the wake of the Monica Lewinsky scandal?” Tony Dokoupil, a CBS correspondent, asked her during that interview.

    “Absolutely not,” Ms Clinton said.

    “It wasn’t an abuse of power?” Mr Dokoupil asked.

    “No. No,” Ms Clinton said.
    …………….. move the goal posts

    “But let me ask you this,” Ms Clinton continued, “Where’s the investigation of the current incumbent, against whom numerous allegations have been made, and which he dismisses, denies, and ridicules?”

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/hillary-clinton-contradicts-monica-lewinsky-161636191.html

  30. Jim

    Paulie “Keeping that two way door wide open grows their movement a lot more than it grows ours, and for us it comes at the expense of bringing in a lot of other people who would be more reachable otherwise. In other words the racist/fascist movement benefits from having a relationship with the libertarian movement while the libertarian movement suffers.”

    Libertarians don’t benefit from having ties to fascists, but we do from having a relationship with the Paleos. All we hear about is the dozen or so high profile cases of Paleo’s turning Alt-Right. But how many came to libertarianism through the Paleos and then went mainstream libertarian? It seems to me that’s kind of like how the news treats homicide. The murder rate is down by 50% since 1990, but it’s reported on so much more now that public perception is that the murder rate is up. Paleos turning Alt-Right? That’s a story. Paleo’s turning mainstream? No one cares.

    Consider two questions:

    Of the people who go PaleoConservative to PaleoLibertarian to Alt-Right – how many would have gone straight from PaleoConservative to Alt-Right if the PaleoLibertarian step didn’t exist?

    Of the people who go PaleoConservative to PaleoLibertarian to Mainstream Libertarian – how many would have gone straight from PaleoConservative to Mainstream Libertarian if the PaleoLibertarian step didn’t exist?

    I think mainstream libertarians benefit more from the PaleoLibertarian step than the Alt Right, because many of the PaleoConservatives would have gone Alt Right regardless, but few PaleoConservatives would have gone Mainstream Libertarian without the PaleoLibertarian step.

    I’m not seeing evidence that the Paleo’s are keeping the LP down. If this were 2008, there’s a case to be made for that. By some measures, the LP basically flat lined from 1990 – 2010. But the LP really took off under Obama (also – when Paul ran in 2008) and is still growing at a pretty good pace under Trump. I added it up not too long ago and we were around 540,000 registered voters, which is up about 40,000 since the 2016 election. During all 8 years of the Bush 2 administration we only added 18,000, and that’s even with an additional 4 states reporting the number.

    What percentage of the libertarian movement would you say was Paleo? Suppose the libertarian movement consists of 10 million people – the 7.4 million people who provably voted Libertarian in 2016, plus some that either couldn’t easily be identified or who didn’t vote at all. I’m having trouble estimating it.

  31. paulie Post author

    I don’t think it’s a matter of relative growth from a zero baseline so much as lost opportunities and bad PR. The question shouldn’t be how much we have grown but how much we could have. That’s not easy to quantify but for many reasons I have said here before we have a lot more growth potential on our left flank than on our right. There’s no set definition of how many people are in the libertarian movement, various people are in it to various extents and involved to various extents, and bringing on or driving away various other people to various extents.

  32. Gina

    Clinton is only “on the left” from the standpoint of US conservatives. Just about anyone else else in any other part of the world and many even in the US see her as being on the right, not substantially different from a Bush or Romney. Monica Lewinsky was a consenting adult, and if anyone was hurt by that it was….Hillary Clinton. Lewinsky, from what I understand, to the extent that she feel victimized today from the events back then, it’s not by Clinton but by his haters. Other Clinton accusers such as Juanita Broderick have a more compelling case against the former president. But he is never going to be president again, and as a realistic matter neither is Hillary, so they are kind of besides the point anyway.

  33. dL

    Libertarians don’t benefit from having ties to fascists, but we do from having a relationship with the Paleos.

    How exactly exactly does one benefit from intellectual expropriation? You seem to claim that paleo libertarianism is a one step up outreach program for paleo-conservatives, but they are in reality the same thing with a different marketing tag. Would anyone claim state socialist is a one step up outreach program for communists? Would it make a difference if they tagged themselves “social democratic libertarians”? I’m guessing you would see right that BS. Likewise for me RE: “paleo libertarianism.”

  34. William T. Forrest

    The Clintons are has beens. That generation of Clintons is done, most likely retired from public office and certainly from the presidency. I am more worried about people who are in power right now. Secondarily about people who could plausibly get in power sometime somewhat soon. Least of all about walking dinosaurs like Bill and Hill, who should have both been left behind together with the last millenium and now belatedly have earned their long deserved place as live action museum display pieces.

  35. William T. Forrest

    Meanwhile, in other duopoly news, Senator Warren is doing neither herself nor her party any good whatsoever with her latest idiotic antics. That’s no loss as far as she goes personally, since her party has no shortage of other attention-seekers jockeying for power. And in the big picture it doesn’t matter which half of the duopoly rules since much like the mafia commission they agree on most things most of the time at the expense of the regular people. But, it’s relatively less bad when the duopoly has divided control of government, so I was somewhat rooting for a “blue wave” with Trump and the increasingly Republican courts to counterbalance.

    Such a wave, which was probably much exaggerated to begin with, appears to be in full retreat before it has ever hit the beach, and Warren’s tone deaf egocentricity may have just put the last nails in the coffin of whatever slim chances Democrats had of taking the senate (if anything, Republicans will probably pick up seats there) and Democrats taking control of the House is far from assured as well. There’s a high likelihood that Republican unified government will continue past this election.

  36. Jim

    dL “You seem to claim that paleo libertarianism is a one step up outreach program for paleo-conservatives, but they are in reality the same thing with a different marketing tag.”

    They’re a mix of Libertarian and PaleoConservative. The biggest point of disagreement between PaleoLibertarians and PaleoConservatives is free trade. The PaleoConservative insistence on trade protectionism drives the PaleoLibertarians insane.

  37. William T. Forrest

    The social media giants are trying to catch up to IPR and the censorious trends Frankel started here by stepping up their removal of unapproved viewpoints, a process which is quickening and intensifying both here and on those larger platforms. These things always snowball, and usually take those who start them down with them. Frankel will be no exception.

    Soon, we will all end up in information bubbles composed purely of echoes of our own existing views. I don’t see this as a bad thing, and it’s part of the freedom of association. Those who insist that others bake them a cake or provide them a platform are an embarrassment to us all, and almost always hypocrites on this account. The walls are being built higher and higher, both the physical and metaphoric ones. Will they come down, and if and when they do will anything or anyone be left as they crush all our safe spaces in their collapse?

  38. dL

    The PaleoConservative insistence on trade protectionism drives the PaleoLibertarians insane.

    Not really. For fun, I just took a gander at Lew Rockwell’s site. There’s nothing there complaining about Trump’s protectionist trade policies. What I do see is a preoccupation with identity politics. Let’s see, there are 4 posts on Elizabeth Warren’s DNA tests. There’s “It gets better: Average White Person in America.” “Racial Preferences on Trial.” Of course, there is the obligatory autism conspiracy theory twaddle.

    I’ve read enough of Justin Raimondo to know that he claimed the paleos dumped Pat Buchanan in the 90s because of Pat’s trade protectionism. But I consider that a post hoc rationalization after Buchanan fizzled out. If free trade was really a sticking point, you wouldn’t ride that horse to begin with. If the Trump horse dies, then, yes, I fully expect the paelolibertarians to once again rediscover the virtue of free trade. As it is, for them it’s more of a post mortem convenience than a principle.

  39. DJ

    WTF: DJ thinks Hillary Clinton is on the left. Now that’s just sad.

    Me: What’s sad is that people in ALL political forums see what they want to see and don’t actually read what is written. Learn to read-

    DJ
    October 15, 2018 at 15:06

    The *face* of the left-
    .

  40. Tony From Long Island

    Hillary Clinton is the face of the left just as John Kasich is the face of the right . . . . that is . . . not in the slightest!

  41. Anthony Dlugos

    “In other words the racist/fascist movement benefits from having a relationship with the libertarian movement while the libertarian movement suffers.”

    +100 likes.

  42. Anthony Dlugos

    Yes, but that’s not the game he is playing – nor is it the game the paleo”libertarian”/alt right slide has been playing for nearly 30 years now. They always try to have it both ways – appeal to bigots as much as possible with a wink and a nod while maintaining some semi-plausible deniability. When it crosses the line into the undeniably, straightforwardly obvious, it’s memory holed, and then it’s right back to dog whistles.

    That’s EXACTLY the game he’s playing.

  43. Jim

    dL “I just took a gander at Lew Rockwell’s site. There’s nothing there complaining about Trump’s protectionist trade policies.”

    I glance at Rockwell’s site maybe 3 times a year, just to see if he’s still on the Trump train, but a google search over the last two years produces a number of articles and blog posts. They’re probably more frequent when tariffs are in the news.

    dL “What I do see is a preoccupation with identity politics.”

    Yeah, there’s always that.

    dL “I’ve read enough of Justin Raimondo to know that he claimed the paleos dumped Pat Buchanan in the 90s because of Pat’s trade protectionism. But I consider that a post hoc rationalization after Buchanan fizzled out. If free trade was really a sticking point, you wouldn’t ride that horse to begin with.”

    That was also mentioned in the Woods video, above. I don’t think he said trade protectionism specifically, but he made a reference more generically to frustration with PaleoConservative economics.

    It makes perfect sense for the PaleoLibertarians to work with the PaleoConserveratives even with their disagreements. People don’t come as blank slates. If you want to expand your ideology, you have to talk with and work with people who don’t agree with you. Your highest chance of success at a conversion comes from people with similar ideologies. For PaleoLibertarians, that means white nationalists, PaleoConservatives, and mainstream Libertarians.

    And yes, if you are a communist, some of your best chances at a conversion come from state socialists.

  44. paulie Post author

    Nobody has anything to say about the New Mexico debate?

    Haven’t seen it but saw different reactions online. One said he was frazzled, haggard and embarrassing. Someone else said he did well. So I guess mixed response.

  45. paulie Post author

    Hillary Clinton is the face of the left just as John Kasich is the face of the right . . . . that is . . . not in the slightest!

    She’s way too much of a warmongering, corporate money teat sucking, power hungry “realpolitik” game player to be any kind of ideological champion. She is just in it to jockey for power with other members of the establishment. And not nearly as slick at it as her husband. I once upon a time knew both of them a little bit, even been a guest at the governors mansion when they lived there. They were hypocrites and phonies then and I’ve seen nothing to indicate they changed – certainly not for the better.

    I’ll agree with someone else who said they are yesterday’s news.

  46. Jim

    Johnson’s constant movement sometimes made him seemed like a confused tweaker, but he would also sometimes come out with facts that made you think he wasn’t as confused as he appeared. It was a stark contrast with the Democrat, Heinrich, who seemed like a robot programmed to not say anything objectionable. Johnson, especially when talking about immigration, seemed alive and compassionate. The Republican, Mick Rich was entirely forgettable.

    I don’t know if either Johnson or Heinrich helped themselves, but it seemed to me that Rich lost ground.

  47. paulie Post author

    The social media giants are trying to catch up to IPR and the censorious trends Frankel started here by stepping up their removal of unapproved viewpoints, a process which is quickening and intensifying both here and on those larger platforms. These things always snowball, and usually take those who start them down with them. Frankel will be no exception.

    Soon, we will all end up in information bubbles composed purely of echoes of our own existing views. I don’t see this as a bad thing, and it’s part of the freedom of association. Those who insist that others bake them a cake or provide them a platform are an embarrassment to us all, and almost always hypocrites on this account. The walls are being built higher and higher, both the physical and metaphoric ones. Will they come down, and if and when they do will anything or anyone be left as they crush all our safe spaces in their collapse?

    Yeah, you’re totally not trolling.

  48. Anthony Dlugos

    “Johnson’s constant movement sometimes made him seemed like a confused tweaker, but he would also sometimes come out with facts that made you think he wasn’t as confused as he appeared…Johnson, especially when talking about immigration, seemed alive and compassionate.”

    Sounds like his 2016 Campaign, 2.0.

  49. Thomas L. Knapp

    “I’ve read enough of Justin Raimondo to know that he claimed the paleos dumped Pat Buchanan in the 90s because of Pat’s trade protectionism.”

    I guess Justin doesn’t consider himself a paleo, then — he was one of Buchanan’s nomination speakers at the Reform Party’s national convention in 2000.

  50. Thomas L. Knapp

    “someone is doing a hard pivot”

    It’s Weld’s patented move. He’s always a small-government radical until he gets what he wants (an election win as a major party candidate, or a nomination with a third party), then goes completely to shit when it counts.

  51. paulie Post author

    Meanwhile, in other duopoly news, Senator Warren is doing neither herself nor her party any good whatsoever with her latest idiotic antics.

    Agreed. She couldn’t help but make herself and her idiotic 1% or 0.01% native ancestry DNA test the focus instead of major national issues, when control of congress is undecided, making herself look ridiculous. LP Louisiana breaks it down…

  52. dL

    I guess Justin doesn’t consider himself a paleo, then — he was one of Buchanan’s nomination speakers at the Reform Party’s national convention in 2000.

    or, by way of a clarification(which allows Raimondo to retain his paleo status):

    the paleos that dumped Pat Buchanan in the 90s did so because of Pat’s trade protectionism.

  53. dL

    “someone is doing a hard pivot”

    No, Weld did a townhall with Matt Welch earlier in the summer where spouted that same line: libertarianism is not the pragmatic center. Of course, soon thereafter, he did a podcast with Nick Gillespie where he parroted Nick’s schtick: libertarianism is the new pragmatic center. It’s frick and frack with those two guys. And Weld is going to frick or frack based on his audience.

  54. dL

    How did Governor Johnson do?

    I haven’t had a chance to watch it.

    Last time I checked, Johnson was establishing his pork barrel bona fides on military spending(military spending by Washington needs to be decreased but military spending ear marked for New Mexico needs to go up) and being called out on his hypocrisy by his opponents…

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