[Thread for discussion on petitioners]

This post is being created in order to permit the ongoing debate over petitioning controversies to continue uncensored without mucking up unrelated topic threads. Please move all such discussion here.

172 thoughts on “[Thread for discussion on petitioners]

  1. paulie

    I’ve heard that LP National

    1) Sent out a fundraising letter naming ballot access as one of its main goals (but also other things).

    2) Has contracted with Bruce Cohen to telemarket for ballot access.

    I haven’t confirmed the thing about Cohen.

    However, I’m also being told that LPHQ has no plans to support any state parties in getting on the ballot any time soon. Is money being raised for ballot access and spent on other projects? (Not an accusation, just trying to interpret the information I have).

    Additionally, Richard Winger recently told me that this is the first time in a long time – if ever – that LPHQ has not been doing anything to help states with ballot access (paraphrasing, hope I got that right).

    Right now, New Mexico is ready to start (in fact has started with volunteers) but has no money. Also, I’m holding $2,000 of LP WV 2012 that I already collected but which they do not have money to pay for.

    Does anyone know more about any of this? You can reach me at 415-690-6352.

  2. Robert Milnes

    I SUSPECT the rightists are sabotaging the LP. That would be a win-win for the GOP & the government. If the rightists maintain control of the party, it will be crippled e.g. less ballot access etc. If the radicals get control, they inherit a cripple. Kind of like what happened to Third Party Watch. That would leave IPR & BTP for the radicals. So you should start thinking now about the Milnes/Ruwart fusion ticket for 2012. We will need the nomination & more ballot access.

  3. Robert Milnes

    Let’s try to not screw up 2012, ok people? Start listening to me & we should be ok & have a good chance of winning & sweeping out most of the dems & reps. Unfortunately, nobody listens to me.

  4. Catholic Trotskyist

    Yes, losertarians and losergreenians will never listen to you because of their stupid arguments about petitioning and radicalism versus reform. That’s why we need more backup for the Progressive Libertarian alliance strategy, with a Christian socialist alliance, which could get up to 70% of the vote. Ex-President Jimmy Carter is a Christian and a socialist. Thus, the 2012 fusion ticket should be

    Milnes-Carter 2012

    After a couple years as vice-president, Carter will be 90 years old and will have to resign for ill health, and you, Robert Milnes, can appoint whoever you want as vice-president, since the alliance will attract many successful candidates for Congress too.

  5. Bruce Cohen

    I called the person in charge of Arizona and talked them into using Jake. Jake then had a tirade/tantrum with this person and blew his chance to get the job.

    By the way, when I recruit or fundraise, I don’t let ideology get in the way. I stick entirely to what I am doing, which is growing membership and raising money.

    I really don’t care if someone agrees with me on Abortion or Foreign Policy (up to a point) personally, and not at all when I’m working.

    That’s why I supported Badnarik.

    And that’s why I support Wayne Root.
    Because he’s the best person for the job, not because I agree with him.

  6. paulie

    Mr. Cohen is being paid for telemarketing consultation–it is on the FEC report.

    Yes, but is the pitch about ballot access?

  7. Andy

    “6 Bruce Cohen // Aug 27, 2009 at 3:55 pm

    I called the person in charge of Arizona and talked them into using Jake. Jake then had a tirade/tantrum with this person and blew his chance to get the job.”

    This isn’t exactly what happened. Also, it is completely irrational for any campaign – particularly a Libertarian Party campaign – to blacklist Jake. Jake does good work and he’s one of only a small handful of people who is not just in it for the money.

    What is particularly ironic as well as disgusting is that while Jake – a real Libertarian and an expierenced petitioner/registrar who had successfully worked for the LP in Arizona twice before – was being blacklisted, mercenary petitioners/registrars (as in NON-Libertarians who are only in it for the money and don’t promote the party & philosophy like Jake does) were hired to do work that Jake could have done better.

    The person or people who blacklisted Jake and those who went along with his being blacklisted ought to be ashamed of themselves.

  8. Jake Witmer

    Bruce Cohen mischaracterizes the Arizona situation. In that situation, the AZ LP Board listened to a few people who didn’t like me, when it came time to honor their past word to me. They failed to honor their word and to act with integrity. For obvious reasons, Cohen never mentions this. Neither they, nor he, nor the National LP ever listened to my side of the story, or bothered to see that their side of the story was full of holes. …Too many to recount here.

    In short, Bruce Cohen is a liar, as anyone who has dealt with him extensively knows. (Make a few phone calls in CA and you will get the picture of a hysterical “pro-war-at-all-costs” “pro-defense libertarian”) Sooner or later, the truth is going to catch up with him. So far, he’s labeled me an “anti-semite” and Mark Seltzer “a racist”. Obviously, Mark and I are both libertarians (and hence not racist in any way), but Cohen coasts along on people’s doubts, because from time to time there have been people who didn’t support AIPAC who were anti-semites or “blamed the Jews”. (The “rightwatch” blog associated with Reason Magazine investigates this type of person, here:
    http://rightwatch.tblog.com/
    )

    (NOTE: “Pro-defense Libertarian” is actually a redundancy as the LP clearly states its agreement with legitimate retaliatory force. “PDL” has come to mean “Pro War Libertarian” and even “Pro Federal-Reserve defecit-spending-influenced Endless Occupation Libertarian”. …This last animal is very rare, and might be imaginary.)

    If anyone is racist/collectivist, it is actually Cohen, since he angrily demanded that I admit that “Israel is always right” in its battles with Palestine. (My view is that neither side is “always right”, and more likely, both sides are “usually wrong”. I’m not a big fan of any government or collectivist involuntary institution.) In contrast, Cohen has proclaimed that Israel’s government is “libertarian”. (Which makes me wonder why he’s not over there, living in libertopia.)

    Cohen is a lying jerk and a possible saboteur of successful LP campaigning, along with his pal, Eric Dondero (Cohen claims to dislike Dondero, although he has admitted to having the same political philosophy as Dondero, and he used the same “suddenly we’re enemies because of your anti-war leaning philosophy” tactic that Dondero repeatedly and publicly uses).

    I am fairly close to a Reason Magazine style libertarian. I trend toward the more socially tolerant “plumb-line” or “radical” libertarian wing of the LP. I disagree slightly with Wayne Root, primarily about immigration (I favor 100% open borders, after a check to make sure that obvious terrorists or wanted assassins or blatantly “mala in se” criminals are not entering).

    Cohen and I were once friends because I didn’t think that pro-war “small L libertarian” people like Christopher Hitchens (who calls himself a libertarian), Glenn Reynolds (who calls himself a Heinlein libertarian), Vin Suprynowicz, or John Hospers should be purged from the party/movement. All of the aforementioned are libertarian on domestic matters, and arguably so (based on philosophical premises, such as “trust of military capability” and “belief in taxpayer capacity” and “belief in genuine pursuit of victory” etc…) on foreign policy. All of the aforementioned have –at least at one point– supported the Iraq invasion / “war on terror(ists)”.

    I don’t want to “run anyone out” of the party except the backstabbers, fraud artists, and infighters. Even then, I want to talk with them, and find out if their differences/problems are irreconcilable, and why they have acted as they’ve acted. Moreover, I want to record it, so the LP has the capacity to correct any errors. What if our very structure pressures low-character people to commit fraud? Shouldn’t we find that out and correct it?

    But this is the last thing that the people in the AZ LP, or Bruce Cohen want. They won’t have a phone call. I will. They won’t go “on the record”, I will gladly be recorded. They won’t have any third parties examine their beliefs under logical socratic questioning. I will happily do so, because I want the truth.

    Cohen didn’t tell people that he disagreed with me because I was a “radical anti-war-at-all-costs loser”, or a “Harry Browne style anarchist” (his angrily-stated actual points of disagreement with me). He didn’t tell people that he thinks I am naive, because I questioned our government’s commitment to its own “war on terror” (while they simultaneously show they care nothing for our safety by continuing their policies of victim disarmament).

    He didn’t mention my philosophical support for Harry Browne’s conception of pursuing a libertarian “Rheingold” or “free market Switzerland”. (ie: First decentralize power, see if that reduces terrorism, THEN, pursue marque and reprisal, THEN, if necessary, retaliate militarily –assuming no asymmetric attack is imminent.)

    Nope, Bruce Cohen made up a despicable lie about me, and told several people I was an “anti-semite”.

    That is beyond the pale. Moreover, it creates an atmosphere in which pro-freedom work is impossible. It creates a “snowball effect” of gossip and slander. Were it to be true, it would be a totally-damning indictment of my character, yet one that very few people would ever confront me about (and hence one that “puts me out of commission”).

    Moreover, since I openly discuss my opposition to the hidden central bank structure of the Federal Reserve (as outlined in the book “The Creature From Jekyll Island: A Second Look at the Federal Reserve” and Murray Rothbard’s “The Case Against the Fed”), Cohen can insinuate (incorrectly) that I am anti-semitic, by smearing both myself and the authors of those books with “anti-jewish paleolibertarianism” of the kind described at “rightwatch / tblog”. The success of this smear tactic is due to the fact that some right-leaning “libertarians” doggedly maintain that the unpublished members of the central bank cartels are entirely Jewish (something that I believe is absurd). Again, the actual anti-semites predominantly appear to some of the people identified at “rightwatch”. (Others are no doubt victimized by their association with them, which is likely why tblog is anonymous.)

    Since tblog is maintained anonymously, it’s possible that Cohen is the moderator, or friends with the moderator (although I doubt it, since Cohen is a loon). I mention this simply in order to point out that if tblog suddenly accuses me of being an anti-semite, then government “agents provacateurs” are even more likely involved with the LP than I now estimate them to be.

    Cohen is one of several people who don’t want to talk. They prefer to assassinate character behind closed doors, with a wink and a nod.

    That’s been pretty much all I have experienced from the LP since I went to work for the Barr campaign in 2008 (under Shane Cory, the WV petition drive failed, because he failed to run the drive properly, and failed to hire any of the workers I brought into –and nearby– the state. He also failed to produce his own workers, except me: one guy for 30,000 signatures in 3 weeks. Obvious fail.). So thorough was the shift in the way I was treated by the LP in 2008 (and the way most of my ideologue friends and associates were treated, from the way we were treated in 2004) that I can only assume that the LP has little or no method for fact-finding or conflict resolution.

    Moreover, I know for a fact that they lack both a standardized hiring contract, and a standardized contract completion form, as well as a method for optimizing feedback. (It’s obvious to me that objections to a contract completion form need to be dealt with at that point in time, preferably no later than 1 week after the next LNC meeting, via a third-party-moderated recorded conference call. An MP3 could then be sent to the disputing parties, and posted online for future LNC members to view via password. This at least allows someone with original recordings to know when the LP is once again “moving away from responsiblity” by removing the online postings.)

    …All the more reason to adopt these things, and do a thorough job of making sure they function as a true immune system that kills infighting. Although the suggestions I’ve made don’t eliminate the possibility of venality and infiltration, they at least address the issue, and arm the victims of such venality or tactical slander with a means of self-defense.

    The LP is in the process of losing 6 good libertarian activists this election cycle. (6 libertarian activists times 150 signatures and contacts per day = 900 people influenced per day. In 365 days in WY, that’s enough to sweep every election in the state. Is it any wonder that our infiltrators jump straight to attacking our activists and thus our outreach and feedback arm? …They KNOW the value of reaching 900 people per day.) No doubt, this overjoys the people who have been handed the contracts to replace us with unquestioning mercenaries (Bruce Cohen, Scott Kohlhaas, Sean Haugh, Russell Verney mercenaries, etc…).

    Unfortunately, this state of affairs also means that the LP is getting less for its donor dollars, and less targeted activism overall. (Targeted activism could actually win over an entire state in one election cycle, which is likely why some people believe that myself and the others should “go bye-bye”.)

    Cohen will not be pounding the pavement any time soon. He has a traditionalist “top-down” view of elections that does not minimize LP weaknesses (by turning our weaknesses into strength). He is virtually unable to think “outside the box”. As anyone who has met him knows, he is a very “Nurse Ratched” authoritarian type personality that believes rigidly in the system’s validity. (He disdains Marc Stevens’ arguments, and barely understands them, since they exist –and are effective– separate from electoral politics.)
    see: http://marcstevens.net

    This appears to be one big reason why he dislikes me. I have often stated that electoral politics is only one tool in our tool box, and that social change in favor of liberty will also need to come about via noncompliance with the law, jury rights activism, and championing or “riding” issue-based I & R. The last of this was the only thing he seemed to fully comprehend.

    Bruce believes that moving toward individual liberty will only be legitimate if it happens via the ballot box. He also stated to me that when he worked for Ron Paul, he did so because “Ron is good on domestic issues”, and he was “sure that Ron would ‘come around’ on foreign policy when the CIA took him aside and showed him how dangerous the world was.” If I didn’t get that verbatim, I got it very close, especially the comment about the CIA giving Ron a “talking to”.

    Which begs a question: What if the mild-mannered Dr. Paul didn’t cave in and join the pro-Israel nation-building Cohen faction? What if he instead convinced congress to reject AIPAC’s overtures for taxpayer-funded aid?

    Cohen actually had an answer to the latter: “There’s nothing unlibertarian about asking congress for money. They have freedom of speech!” Hmmm. I’m not sure I buy that. We all have a right to beg the government to steal from our neighbors, but exercising that right would be decidedly un-libertarian, and if it were listened to (as in the real case of AIPAC), it would be directly anti-libertarian.

    I am not sure about my “lack of support” for Israel. Sometimes, they seem to be in the right, sometimes, in the wrong. …But I am sure I’m not an anti-semite.

    Incidentally, while Bruce was in TN, he slandered LP activist Gary Fincher who was there at the same time, and stated that he had copied spouse information (address, phone number, etc..) next to over-under spouse signatures on Ron’s TN delegate petitions (after being told they would not count). I have reason to believe this allegation is false, but it was never argued out in front of unbiased and experienced witnesses. (It seemed to bother Cohen at the time that I didn’t trust his character assassination of Fincher. …Note to self!) In the future, the truth needs to be found, and the reputation slanders need to be stopped cold. All petitioners need to copy their petition sheets, and all coordinators should work together with third-party unbiased “dispute resolution” moderators. If Richard Winger (or Bill Redpath, or Roger Roots, or Mark Pickens of ISIL, or some other trusted and objective third-party) was able to look at copies of the petitions in question, on numbered petition sheets for a fee, then there would be no unresolvable disputes, and no continual “lies that follow activists around”. Simply by raising the cost of retaining quality libertarian activists, the Democrats and Republicans can likely delay our success by years. (By which time, WY, AK, and NH will have populations too large to influence, and our “window of opportunity” will likely have closed for good.)

    As far as my foreign policy beliefs, I am anti-intervention. By smearing me as an anti-semite to other anti-interventionists, Cohen also engenders infighting/suspicion among the anti-interventionists who rightfully avoid anything anti-semitic like the plague. He also shuts down the debate, because there can be no debate with someone who believes his lying charges of racism. Why would he make such an allegation if he holds his pro-war beliefs in good faith?
    One of a few possibilities is likely:
    1) He knows his views are in the minority, and he wants to do battle with the majority LP view doing as much damage to “the other side” as possible.
    2) He is an agent of the state who intends to do as much damage to the LP as possible
    3) His feelings were hurt when he found out that he wasted time believing we shared identical philosophies, only to discover my philosophy was different from him. This difference in my philosophy caused him so much anger that he decided to stoop to character assassination.

    I despise wasting my time replying to jackasses like Cohen, but I’m glad that my reply is now part of the trail of arrows that all point to the fact that Cohen is a liar with no integrity.

    I urge the National LP to not deal with people like Cohen. Or at very least to ask them for an explanation of their actions.

    I am always happy to further explain myself to anyone who cares for my side of the story.
    907-250-5503

    I’m confident that if there is anyone who desires the truth about the deplorable state of affairs at the National LP, I can give it to them.

    (I don’t include Wes Benedict in this negative assessment. As far as I know, he is a good worker who is trying hard to make the LP relevant. Wes seems to be a competent guy who just inherited a mess.)

    PS: Props on the new WY LP website
    http://www.wyominglp.org/
    whoever was responsible for that. I like it better than the old “busy” one:
    http://web.archive.org/web/20071011165809/http://wyolp.org/index.html

    As an immediate elixir for the problems of trying to win victory at the National level, I encourage anarcho-zionism of the kind advocated at this website:
    http://www.freestatewyoming.org

    I always tell myself I’m going to write shorter posts that someone might conceivably read, but there’s always so much dirt from people like Cohen that it could fill a book.

    …Maybe I’ll have to write one.

  9. Jake Witmer

    I really don’t care if someone agrees with me on Abortion or Foreign Policy (up to a point) personally, and not at all when I’m working.

    Obviously, this is untrue. …Anyone here from California know Bruce?

    I’m sure that Bruce has kissed most of “the right” asses, while climbing the LP ladder, but I wonder if there are any other “racists”, “anti-semites”, etc…

    …It’s amazing what the reform caucus will tolerate from anyone willing to wear a suit and tie and wake up on time.

    I’m just glad the FRNs that Cohen raises are going to ask people for more FRNs, to pay people like Bruce more FRNs to associate the term “libertarian” with “the mandrake mechanism”. “Lead into gold”, indeed.
    http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/educational/watch/v591572k5nJkzPK

    Hopefully, the people that Shane Cory hired to pointlessly continue petitioning past the deadline in WV will finally get paid, (as well as the lawyers Barr hired to pointlessly sue the WV state for no reason). …Maybe that’s why Cohen isn’t making a ballot access pitch. I imagine that Wes has inherited a lot of debt from 2008 caused by …people like Bruce Cohen.

    The LP can no longer legitimately lay claim to the tagline “the party of principle”. Perhaps David Nolan is right, and that’s simply what happens when “the people who used to run for student government in high school” take over.
    http://lewrockwell.com/podcast/?p=episode&name=2008-12-16_085_david_nolan_what_happened_to_the_libertarian_party.mp3

    …I’d at least like to implement some decentralist organizational tools and make bastards like Cohen work a bit if they want to “slash-and-burn” the only political party that comes close to agreeing with my views.

  10. Jake Witmer

    Bruce Cohen mischaracterizes the Arizona situation. In that situation, the AZ LP Board listened to a few

    people who didn’t like me, when it came time to honor their past word to me. They failed to honor their word

    and to act with integrity. For obvious reasons, Cohen never mentions this. Neither they, nor he, nor the

    National LP ever listened to my side of the story, or bothered to see that their side of the story was full of

    holes. …Too many to recount here.

    In short, Bruce Cohen is a liar, as anyone who has dealt with him extensively knows. (Make a few phone calls

    in CA and you will get the picture of a hysterical “pro-war-at-all-costs” “pro-defense libertarian”) Sooner

    or later, the truth is going to catch up with him. So far, he’s labeled me an “anti-semite” and Mark Seltzer

    “a racist”. Obviously, Mark and I are both libertarians (and hence not racist in any way), but Cohen coasts

    along on people’s doubts, because from time to time there have been people who didn’t support AIPAC who were

    anti-semites or “blamed the Jews”. (The “rightwatch” blog associated with Reason Magazine investigates this

    type of person, here:
    http://rightwatch.tblog.com/
    )

    (NOTE: “Pro-defense Libertarian” is actually a redundancy as the LP clearly states its agreement with

    legitimate retaliatory force. “PDL” has come to mean “Pro War Libertarian” and even “Pro Federal-Reserve

    defecit-spending-influenced Endless Occupation Libertarian”. …This last animal is very rare, and might be

    imaginary.)

    If anyone is racist/collectivist, it is actually Cohen, since he angrily demanded that I admit that “Israel is

    always right” in its battles with Palestine. (My view is that neither side is “always right”, and more

    likely, both sides are “usually wrong”. I’m not a big fan of any government or collectivist involuntary

    institution.) In contrast, Cohen has proclaimed that Israel’s government is “libertarian”. (Which makes me

    wonder why he’s not over there, living in libertopia.)

    Cohen is a lying jerk and a possible saboteur of successful LP campaigning, along with his pal, Eric Dondero

    (Cohen claims to dislike Dondero, although he has admitted to having the same political philosophy as Dondero,

    and he used the same “suddenly we’re enemies because of your anti-war leaning philosophy” tactic that Dondero

    repeatedly and publicly uses).

    I am fairly close to a Reason Magazine style libertarian. I trend toward the more socially tolerant “plumb-

    line” or “radical” libertarian wing of the LP. I disagree slightly with Wayne Root, primarily about

    immigration (I favor 100% open borders, after a check to make sure that obvious terrorists or wanted assassins

    or blatantly “mala in se” criminals are not entering).

    Cohen and I were once friends because I didn’t think that pro-war “small L libertarian” people like

    Christopher Hitchens (who calls himself a libertarian), Glenn Reynolds (who calls himself a Heinlein

    libertarian), Vin Suprynowicz, or John Hospers should be purged from the party/movement. All of the

    aforementioned are libertarian on domestic matters, and arguably so (based on philosophical premises, such as

    “trust of military capability” and “belief in taxpayer capacity” and “belief in genuine pursuit of victory”

    etc…) on foreign policy. All of the aforementioned have –at least at one point– supported the Iraq

    invasion / “war on terror(ists)”.

    I don’t want to “run anyone out” of the party except the backstabbers, fraud artists, and infighters. Even

    then, I want to talk with them, and find out if their differences/problems are irreconcilable, and why they

    have acted as they’ve acted. Moreover, I want to record it, so the LP has the capacity to correct any errors.

    What if our very structure pressures low-character people to commit fraud? Shouldn’t we find that out and

    correct it?

    But this is the last thing that the people in the AZ LP, or Bruce Cohen want. They won’t have a phone call.

    I will. They won’t go “on the record”, I will gladly be recorded. They won’t have any third parties examine

    their beliefs under logical socratic questioning. I will happily do so, because I want the truth.

    Cohen didn’t tell people that he disagreed with me because I was a “radical anti-war-at-all-costs loser”, or a

    “Harry Browne style anarchist” (his angrily-stated actual points of disagreement with me). He didn’t tell

    people that he thinks I am naive, because I questioned our government’s commitment to its own “war on terror”

    (while they simultaneously show they care nothing for our safety by continuing their policies of victim

    disarmament).

    He didn’t mention my philosophical support for Harry Browne’s conception of pursuing a libertarian “Rheingold”

    or “free market Switzerland”. (ie: First decentralize power, see if that reduces terrorism, THEN, pursue

    marque and reprisal, THEN, if necessary, retaliate militarily –assuming no asymmetric attack is imminent.)

    Nope, Bruce Cohen made up a despicable lie about me, and told several people I was an “anti-semite”.

    That is beyond the pale. Moreover, it creates an atmosphere in which pro-freedom work is impossible. It

    creates a “snowball effect” of gossip and slander. Were it to be true, it would be a totally-damning

    indictment of my character, yet one that very few people would ever confront me about (and hence one that

    “puts me out of commission”).

    Moreover, since I openly discuss my opposition to the hidden central bank structure of the Federal Reserve (as

    outlined in the book “The Creature From Jekyll Island: A Second Look at the Federal Reserve” and Murray

    Rothbard’s “The Case Against the Fed”), Cohen can insinuate (incorrectly) that I am anti-semitic, by smearing

    both myself and the authors of those books with “anti-jewish paleolibertarianism” of the kind described at

    “rightwatch / tblog”. The success of this smear tactic is due to the fact that some right-leaning

    “libertarians” doggedly maintain that the unpublished members of the central bank cartels are entirely Jewish

    (something that I believe is absurd). Again, the actual anti-semites predominantly appear to some of the

    people identified at “rightwatch”. (Others are no doubt victimized by their association with them, which is

    likely why tblog is anonymous.)

    Since tblog is maintained anonymously, it’s possible that Cohen is the moderator, or friends with the

    moderator (although I doubt it, since Cohen is a loon). I mention this simply in order to point out that if

    tblog suddenly accuses me of being an anti-semite, then government “agents provacateurs” are even more likely

    involved with the LP than I now estimate them to be.

    Cohen is one of several people who don’t want to talk. They prefer to assassinate character behind closed

    doors, with a wink and a nod.

    That’s been pretty much all I have experienced from the LP since I went to work for the Barr campaign in 2008

    (under Shane Cory, the WV petition drive failed, because he failed to run the drive properly, and failed to

    hire any of the workers I brought into –and nearby– the state. He also failed to produce his own workers,

    except me: one guy for 30,000 signatures in 3 weeks. Obvious fail.). So thorough was the shift in the way I

    was treated by the LP in 2008 (and the way most of my ideologue friends and associates were treated, from the

    way we were treated in 2004) that I can only assume that the LP has little or no method for fact-finding or

    conflict resolution.

    Moreover, I know for a fact that they lack both a standardized hiring contract, and a standardized contract

    completion form, as well as a method for optimizing feedback. (It’s obvious to me that objections to a

    contract completion form need to be dealt with at that point in time, preferably no later than 1 week after

    the next LNC meeting, via a third-party-moderated recorded conference call. An MP3 could then be sent to the

    disputing parties, and posted online for future LNC members to view via password. This at least allows

    someone with original recordings to know when the LP is once again “moving away from responsiblity” by

    removing the online postings.)

    …All the more reason to adopt these things, and do a thorough job of making sure they function as a true

    immune system that kills infighting. Although the suggestions I’ve made don’t eliminate the possibility of

    venality and infiltration, they at least address the issue, and arm the victims of such venality or tactical

    slander with a means of self-defense.

    The LP is in the process of losing 6 good libertarian activists this election cycle. (6 libertarian activists

    times 150 signatures and contacts per day = 900 people influenced per day. In 365 days in WY, that’s enough

    to sweep every election in the state. Is it any wonder that our infiltrators jump straight to attacking our

    activists and thus our outreach and feedback arm? …They KNOW the value of reaching 900 people per day.)

    No doubt, this overjoys the people who have been handed the contracts to replace us with unquestioning

    mercenaries (Bruce Cohen, Scott Kohlhaas, Sean Haugh, Russell Verney mercenaries, etc…).

    Unfortunately, this state of affairs also means that the LP is getting less for its donor dollars, and less

    targeted activism overall. (Targeted activism could actually win over an entire state in one election cycle,

    which is likely why some people believe that myself and the others should “go bye-bye”.)

    Cohen will not be pounding the pavement any time soon. He has a traditionalist “top-down” view of elections

    that does not minimize LP weaknesses (by turning our weaknesses into strength). He is virtually unable to

    think “outside the box”. As anyone who has met him knows, he is a very “Nurse Ratched” authoritarian type

    personality that believes rigidly in the system’s validity. (He disdains Marc Stevens’ arguments, and barely

    understands them, since they exist –and are effective– separate from electoral politics.)
    see: http://marcstevens.net

    This appears to be one big reason why he dislikes me. I have often stated that electoral politics is only one

    tool in our tool box, and that social change in favor of liberty will also need to come about via

    noncompliance with the law, jury rights activism, and championing or “riding” issue-based I & R. The last of

    this was the only thing he seemed to fully comprehend.

    Bruce believes that moving toward individual liberty will only be legitimate if it happens via the ballot box.

    He also stated to me that when he worked for Ron Paul, he did so because “Ron is good on domestic issues”,

    and he was “sure that Ron would ‘come around’ on foreign policy when the CIA took him aside and showed him how

    dangerous the world was.” If I didn’t get that verbatim, I got it very close, especially the comment about

    the CIA giving Ron a “talking to”.

    Which begs a question: What if the mild-mannered Dr. Paul didn’t cave in and join the pro-Israel nation-

    building Cohen faction? What if he instead convinced congress to reject AIPAC’s overtures for taxpayer-funded

    aid?

    Cohen actually had an answer to the latter: “There’s nothing unlibertarian about asking congress for money.

    They have freedom of speech!” Hmmm. I’m not sure I buy that. We all have a right to beg the government to

    steal from our neighbors, but exercising that right would be decidedly un-libertarian, and if it were listened

    to (as in the real case of AIPAC), it would be directly anti-libertarian.

    I am not sure about my “lack of support” for Israel. Sometimes, they seem to be in the right, sometimes, in

    the wrong. …But I am sure I’m not an anti-semite.

    Incidentally, while Bruce was in TN, he slandered LP activist Gary Fincher who was there at the same time, and

    stated that he had copied spouse information (address, phone number, etc..) next to over-under spouse

    signatures on Ron’s TN delegate petitions (after being told they would not count). I have reason to believe

    this allegation is false, but it was never argued out in front of unbiased and experienced witnesses. (It

    seemed to bother Cohen at the time that I didn’t trust his character assassination of Fincher. …Note to

    self!) In the future, the truth needs to be found, and the reputation slanders need to be stopped cold. All

    petitioners need to copy their petition sheets, and all coordinators should work together with third-party

    unbiased “dispute resolution” moderators. If Richard Winger (or Bill Redpath, or Roger Roots, or Mark Pickens

    of ISIL, or some other trusted and objective third-party) was able to look at copies of the petitions in

    question, on numbered petition sheets for a fee, then there would be no unresolvable disputes, and no

    continual “lies that follow activists around”. Simply by raising the cost of retaining quality libertarian

    activists, the Democrats and Republicans can likely delay our success by years. (By which time, WY, AK, and

    NH will have populations too large to influence, and our “window of opportunity” will likely have closed for

    good.)

    As far as my foreign policy beliefs, I am anti-intervention. By smearing me as an anti-semite to other anti-

    interventionists, Cohen also engenders infighting/suspicion among the anti-interventionists who rightfully

    avoid anything anti-semitic like the plague. He also shuts down the debate, because there can be no debate

    with someone who believes his lying charges of racism. Why would he make such an allegation if he holds his

    pro-war beliefs in good faith?
    One of a few possibilities is likely:
    1) He knows his views are in the minority, and he wants to do battle with the majority LP view doing as much

    damage to “the other side” as possible.
    2) He is an agent of the state who intends to do as much damage to the LP as possible
    3) His feelings were hurt when he found out that he wasted time believing we shared identical philosophies,

    only to discover my philosophy was different from him. This difference in my philosophy caused him so much

    anger that he decided to stoop to character assassination.

    I despise wasting my time replying to jackasses like Cohen, but I’m glad that my reply is now part of the

    trail of arrows that all point to the fact that Cohen is a liar with no integrity.

    I urge the National LP to not deal with people like Cohen. Or at very least to ask them for an explanation of

    their actions.

    I am always happy to further explain myself to anyone who cares for my side of the story.
    907-250-5503

    I’m confident that if there is anyone who desires the truth about the deplorable state of affairs at the

    National LP, I can give it to them.

    (I don’t include Wes Benedict in this negative assessment. As far as I know, he is a good worker who is

    trying hard to make the LP relevant. Wes seems to be a competent guy who just inherited a mess.)

    PS: Props on the new WY LP website
    http://www.wyominglp.org/
    whoever was responsible for that. I like it better than the old “busy” one:
    http://web.archive.org/web/20071011165809/http://wyolp.org/index.html

    As an immediate elixir for the problems of trying to win victory at the National level, I encourage anarcho-

    zionism of the kind advocated at this website:
    http://www.freestatewyoming.org

    I always tell myself I’m going to write shorter posts that someone might conceivably read, but there’s always

    so much dirt from people like Cohen that it could fill a book.

    …Maybe I’ll have to write one.

  11. Jake Witmer

    Bruce Cohen mischaracterizes the Arizona situation. In that situation, the AZ LP Board listened to a few people who didn’t like me, when it came time to honor their past word to me. They failed to honor their word and to act with integrity. For obvious reasons, Cohen never mentions this. Neither they, nor he, nor the National LP ever listened to my side of the story, or bothered to see that their side of the story was full of holes. …Too many to recount here.

    In short, Bruce Cohen is a liar, as anyone who has dealt with him extensively knows. (Make a few phone calls in CA and you will get the picture of a hysterical “pro-war-at-all-costs” “pro-defense libertarian”) Sooner or later, the truth is going to catch up with him. So far, he’s labeled me an “anti-semite” and Mark Seltzer “a racist”. Obviously, Mark and I are both libertarians (and hence not racist in any way), but Cohen coasts along on people’s doubts, because from time to time there have been people who didn’t support AIPAC who were anti-semites or “blamed the Jews”. (The “rightwatch” blog associated with Reason Magazine investigates this type of person, here:
    http://rightwatch.tblog.com/
    )

    (NOTE: “Pro-defense Libertarian” is actually a redundancy as the LP clearly states its agreement with legitimate retaliatory force. “PDL” has come to mean “Pro War Libertarian” and even “Pro Federal-Reserve defecit-spending-influenced Endless Occupation Libertarian”. …This last animal is very rare, and might be imaginary.)

  12. Jake Witmer

    If anyone is racist/collectivist, it is actually Cohen, since he angrily demanded that I admit that “Israel is always right” in its battles with Palestine. (My view is that neither side is “always right”, and more likely, both sides are “usually wrong”. I’m not a big fan of any government or collectivist involuntary institution.) In contrast, Cohen has proclaimed that Israel’s government is “libertarian”. (Which makes me wonder why he’s not over there, living in libertopia.)

    Cohen is a lying jerk and a possible saboteur of successful LP campaigning, along with his pal, Eric Dondero (Cohen claims to dislike Dondero, although he has admitted to having the same political philosophy as Dondero, and he used the same “suddenly we’re enemies because of your anti-war leaning philosophy” tactic that Dondero repeatedly and publicly uses).

    I am fairly close to a Reason Magazine style libertarian. I trend toward the more socially tolerant “plumb-line” or “radical” libertarian wing of the LP. I disagree slightly with Wayne Root, primarily about immigration (I favor 100% open borders, after a check to make sure that obvious terrorists or wanted assassins or blatantly “mala in se” criminals are not entering).

    Cohen and I were once friends because I didn’t think that pro-war “small L libertarian” people like Christopher Hitchens (who calls himself a libertarian), Glenn Reynolds (who calls himself a Heinlein libertarian), Vin Suprynowicz, or John Hospers should be purged from the party/movement. All of the aforementioned are libertarian on domestic matters, and arguably so (based on philosophical premises, such as “trust of military capability” and “belief in taxpayer capacity” and “belief in genuine pursuit of victory” etc…) on foreign policy. All of the aforementioned have –at least at one point– supported the Iraq invasion / “war on terror(ists)”.

    I don’t want to “run anyone out” of the party except the backstabbers, fraud artists, and infighters. Even then, I want to talk with them, and find out if their differences/problems are irreconcilable, and why they have acted as they’ve acted. Moreover, I want to record it, so the LP has the capacity to correct any errors. What if our very structure pressures low-character people to commit fraud? Shouldn’t we find that out and correct it?

    But this is the last thing that the people in the AZ LP, or Bruce Cohen want. They won’t have a phone call. I will. They won’t go “on the record”, I will gladly be recorded. They won’t have any third parties examine their beliefs under logical socratic questioning. I will happily do so, because I want the truth.

    Cohen didn’t tell people that he disagreed with me because I was a “radical anti-war-at-all-costs loser”, or a “Harry Browne style anarchist” (his angrily-stated actual points of disagreement with me). He didn’t tell people that he thinks I am naive, because I questioned our government’s commitment to its own “war on terror” (while they simultaneously show they care nothing for our safety by continuing their policies of victim disarmament).

    He didn’t mention my philosophical support for Harry Browne’s conception of pursuing a libertarian “Rheingold” or “free market Switzerland”. (ie: First decentralize power, see if that reduces terrorism, THEN, pursue marque and reprisal, THEN, if necessary, retaliate militarily –assuming no asymmetric attack is imminent.)

    Nope, Bruce Cohen made up a despicable lie about me, and told several people I was an “anti-semite”.

    That is beyond the pale. Moreover, it creates an atmosphere in which pro-freedom work is impossible. It creates a “snowball effect” of gossip and slander. Were it to be true, it would be a totally-damning indictment of my character, yet one that very few people would ever confront me about (and hence one that “puts me out of commission”).

  13. Jake Witmer

    Moreover, since I openly discuss my opposition to the hidden central bank structure of the Federal Reserve (as outlined in the book “The Creature From Jekyll Island: A Second Look at the Federal Reserve” and Murray Rothbard’s “The Case Against the Fed”), Cohen can insinuate (incorrectly) that I am anti-semitic, by smearing both myself and the authors of those books with “anti-jewish paleolibertarianism” of the kind described at “rightwatch / tblog”. The success of this smear tactic is due to the fact that some right-leaning “libertarians” doggedly maintain that the unpublished members of the central bank cartels are entirely Jewish (something that I believe is absurd). Again, the actual anti-semites predominantly appear to some of the people identified at “rightwatch”. (Others are no doubt victimized by their association with them, which is likely why tblog is anonymous.)

    Since tblog is maintained anonymously, it’s possible that Cohen is the moderator, or friends with the moderator (although I doubt it, since Cohen is a loon). I mention this simply in order to point out that if tblog suddenly accuses me of being an anti-semite, then government “agents provacateurs” are even more likely involved with the LP than I now estimate them to be.

    Cohen is one of several people who don’t want to talk. They prefer to assassinate character behind closed doors, with a wink and a nod.

    That’s been pretty much all I have experienced from the LP since I went to work for the Barr campaign in 2008 (under Shane Cory, the WV petition drive failed, because he failed to run the drive properly, and failed to hire any of the workers I brought into –and nearby– the state. He also failed to produce his own workers, except me: one guy for 30,000 signatures in 3 weeks. Obvious fail.). So thorough was the shift in the way I was treated by the LP in 2008 (and the way most of my ideologue friends and associates were treated, from the way we were treated in 2004) that I can only assume that the LP has little or no method for fact-finding or conflict resolution.

    Moreover, I know for a fact that they lack both a standardized hiring contract, and a standardized contract completion form, as well as a method for optimizing feedback. (It’s obvious to me that objections to a contract completion form need to be dealt with at that point in time, preferably no later than 1 week after the next LNC meeting, via a third-party-moderated recorded conference call. An MP3 could then be sent to the disputing parties, and posted online for future LNC members to view via password. This at least allows someone with original recordings to know when the LP is once again “moving away from responsiblity” by removing the online postings.)

    …All the more reason to adopt these things, and do a thorough job of making sure they function as a true immune system that kills infighting. Although the suggestions I’ve made don’t eliminate the possibility of venality and infiltration, they at least address the issue, and arm the victims of such venality or tactical slander with a means of self-defense.

    The LP is in the process of losing 6 good libertarian activists this election cycle. (6 libertarian activists times 150 signatures and contacts per day = 900 people influenced per day. In 365 days in WY, that’s enough to sweep every election in the state. Is it any wonder that our infiltrators jump straight to attacking our activists and thus our outreach and feedback arm? …They KNOW the value of reaching 900 people per day.) No doubt, this overjoys the people who have been handed the contracts to replace us with unquestioning mercenaries (Bruce Cohen, Scott Kohlhaas, Sean Haugh, Russell Verney mercenaries, etc…).

    Unfortunately, this state of affairs also means that the LP is getting less for its donor dollars, and less targeted activism overall. (Targeted activism could actually win over an entire state in one election cycle, which is likely why some people believe that myself and the others should “go bye-bye”.)

    Cohen will not be pounding the pavement any time soon. He has a traditionalist “top-down” view of elections that does not minimize LP weaknesses (by turning our weaknesses into strength). He is virtually unable to think “outside the box”. As anyone who has met him knows, he is a very “Nurse Ratched” authoritarian type personality that believes rigidly in the system’s validity. (He disdains Marc Stevens’ arguments, and barely understands them, since they exist –and are effective– separate from electoral politics.)
    see: http://marcstevens.net

  14. Jake Witmer

    This appears to be one big reason why he dislikes me. I have often stated that electoral politics is only one tool in our tool box, and that social change in favor of liberty will also need to come about via noncompliance with the law, jury rights activism, and championing or “riding” issue-based I & R. The last of this was the only thing he seemed to fully comprehend.

    Bruce believes that moving toward individual liberty will only be legitimate if it happens via the ballot box. He also stated to me that when he worked for Ron Paul, he did so because “Ron is good on domestic issues”, and he was “sure that Ron would ‘come around’ on foreign policy when the CIA took him aside and showed him how dangerous the world was.” If I didn’t get that verbatim, I got it very close, especially the comment about the CIA giving Ron a “talking to”.

    Which begs a question: What if the mild-mannered Dr. Paul didn’t cave in and join the pro-Israel nation-building Cohen faction? What if he instead convinced congress to reject AIPAC’s overtures for taxpayer-funded aid?

    Cohen actually had an answer to the latter: “There’s nothing unlibertarian about asking congress for money. They have freedom of speech!” Hmmm. I’m not sure I buy that. We all have a right to beg the government to steal from our neighbors, but exercising that right would be decidedly un-libertarian, and if it were listened to (as in the real case of AIPAC), it would be directly anti-libertarian.

    I am not sure about my “lack of support” for Israel. Sometimes, they seem to be in the right, sometimes, in the wrong. …But I am sure I’m not an anti-semite.

    Incidentally, while Bruce was in TN, he slandered LP activist Gary Fincher who was there at the same time, and stated that he had copied spouse information (address, phone number, etc..) next to over-under spouse signatures on Ron’s TN delegate petitions (after being told they would not count). I have reason to believe this allegation is false, but it was never argued out in front of unbiased and experienced witnesses. (It seemed to bother Cohen at the time that I didn’t trust his character assassination of Fincher. …Note to self!) In the future, the truth needs to be found, and the reputation slanders need to be stopped cold. All petitioners need to copy their petition sheets, and all coordinators should work together with third-party unbiased “dispute resolution” moderators. If Richard Winger (or Bill Redpath, or Roger Roots, or Mark Pickens of ISIL, or some other trusted and objective third-party) was able to look at copies of the petitions in question, on numbered petition sheets for a fee, then there would be no unresolvable disputes, and no continual “lies that follow activists around”. Simply by raising the cost of retaining quality libertarian activists, the Democrats and Republicans can likely delay our success by years. (By which time, WY, AK, and NH will have populations too large to influence, and our “window of opportunity” will likely have closed for good.)

    As far as my foreign policy beliefs, I am anti-intervention. By smearing me as an anti-semite to other anti-interventionists, Cohen also engenders infighting/suspicion among the anti-interventionists who rightfully avoid anything anti-semitic like the plague. He also shuts down the debate, because there can be no debate with someone who believes his lying charges of racism. Why would he make such an allegation if he holds his pro-war beliefs in good faith?
    One of a few possibilities is likely:
    1) He knows his views are in the minority, and he wants to do battle with the majority LP view doing as much damage to “the other side” as possible.
    2) He is an agent of the state who intends to do as much damage to the LP as possible
    3) His feelings were hurt when he found out that he wasted time believing we shared identical philosophies, only to discover my philosophy was different from him. This difference in my philosophy caused him so much anger that he decided to stoop to character assassination.

    I despise wasting my time replying to jackasses like Cohen, but I’m glad that my reply is now part of the trail of arrows that all point to the fact that Cohen is a liar with no integrity.

    I urge the National LP to not deal with people like Cohen. Or at very least to ask them for an explanation of their actions.

    I am always happy to further explain myself to anyone who cares for my side of the story.
    907-250-5503

    I’m confident that if there is anyone who desires the truth about the deplorable state of affairs at the National LP, I can give it to them.

    (I don’t include Wes Benedict in this negative assessment. As far as I know, he is a good worker who is trying hard to make the LP relevant. Wes seems to be a competent guy who just inherited a mess.)

    PS: Props on the new WY LP website
    http://www.wyominglp.org/
    whoever was responsible for that. I like it better than the old “busy” one:
    http://web.archive.org/web/20071011165809/http://wyolp.org/index.html

    As an immediate elixir for the problems of trying to win victory at the National level, I encourage anarcho-zionism of the kind advocated at this website:
    http://www.freestatewyoming.org

    I always tell myself I’m going to write shorter posts that someone might conceivably read, but there’s always so much dirt from people like Cohen that it could fill a book.

    …Maybe I’ll have to write one.

  15. paulie

    I imagine that Wes has inherited a lot of debt from 2008

    No, the LP was in the black as of the last LNC meeting in July.

  16. libertariangirl

    If Richard Winger (or Bill Redpath, or Roger Roots, or Mark Pickens of ISIL,

    me_ Roger Roots is from Nevada , and we miss him terribly and incidentally i would trust him with ANYTHING . He is a true patriot and awesome friend.

    we miss you Roger!!!

  17. libertariangirl

    so tell us how you really feel about Bruce Cohen Jake?

    I started to count how many times you mentioned his name in your gossip laden , far too long ,attack pieces but honestly , i lost count! lol

    isnt it true you used to be friends with him and now because of something or other that you OBVIOUSLY cant move past , you spend way too uch of your precious time attacking him amd spreading disharmony.

    from what i hear you are a smart , awesome activist , its a shame you waste your talents on such rubbish.

  18. libertariangirl

    JW_Cohen is one of several people who don’t want to talk. They prefer to assassinate character behind closed doors, with a wink and a nod.

    thats weird cuz ive heard you assasinate his character but in private texting , Bruce called you smart and a good activist .

    HMMmm…

  19. Gary Fincher

    AJ: I hit the mattress while telling him to stop agitating Christy. I did not intend for the combination of the mattress sliding a few inches and his weight on the other side of the bed to cause the mattress to tip,

    Tell you what – if Andy can re-simulate what he is contending occurred with a king-sized bed and king-sized mattress, and he’s successful even ONE (I’ll be generous and give him 100 shots at it) time, I’ll throw in the towel on this – and become Andy’s personal servant for life to boot!

    For most intelligent readers, this should end the “mystery” of what really happened right here and now, obviously, duh.

  20. Gary Fincher

    (The truth of which is got enraged, got out of control, and battered me: on 3 separate occasions.)

  21. Gary Fincher

    The verdict on Jake Witmer:

    Jake, I have come to the conclusionn that you are not a good person, with good intentions, and are certainly not a libertarian.

    I base this finding largely on your having not denied (tacit confession) having stolen a rental car, a very serious crime under libertarian doctrine, more indicative of someone who’s a thug. I also base this on your refusal to even listen or entertain what the truth is, while simultaneously and hypocritically speaking about fully informed juries.

    I also base this on your highly vocal criticism of others who inadvertently or incidentally use the State’s “services”, at a time when you take full advantage of them whenever it’s expedient for you to do so (you never denied getting bailed out by a State-run program for getting stiffed for circulating – oh yeah, GOP? – registrations).

    Anyone with an ounce of common sense can tell Andy is engaging in blatant obfuscation regarding his guilt, within a few sentences of his poorly-spun denials.

    I initially took you for someone with more integrity and sharpness; for that, I am regretful.

    Gary

  22. Gary Fincher

    My last word:

    Here are links to both parts of a video I put up detailing Andy’s crimes against me:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IchltWD9eIc

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Nh0OYYgJYM

    Andy did in fact go out of control and batter me. It happened, and it happened on three occasions. I did not create this fact, Andy did. And I have put my money where my mouth is, so to speak, as I have sworn this in testimony under oath in Riverside County, California. There is no way I would be alleging something so serious of someone – especially one of my best friends – if it weren’t true. I certainly wouldn’t have “tattled” on that close a friend had the act not been committed ON ME. Those who know me know that I have to be pushed PRETTY FAR in order to witness against someone on something this serious. To the point of actually visiting the police/courts.

    In fact, I was VERY reluctant to take this course, and only have done so after he committed the act for a third time, forcing me to see that it’s a pattern that probably won’t change if we remain in proximity. The first two times it occurred I let him slide, hoping against hope that they were just isolated outbursts and he wouldn’t do it again (although he never even acknowledge doing it, let alone apologized for it, LET ALONE promised to not do it again). And even after the third time, I STILL gave him an opportunity to save some kind of face: I sent him a text message to him at 6:08 pm on May 12, saying (and I quote myself verbatim): “Look, if you don’t do a mea culpa I’m gonna broadcast your initiation of force and fraud on the message boards.”

    He ignored this offer. (If he had come forward, I would not have gone public, albeit having seen the violence occur 3 times, it still would have been a ‘dealbreaker’ between us. I just thought that if he showed THAT much good faith sincerity, he still deserved to keep his reputation intact. He didn’t, so here we are.)

    It is disenchanting and disappointing to report on traumatic harm done to me, only to see others you look up to not believe you. My own best friend of 35 years, when I related the incident to him, slurred that I “must have done something to goad him [into striking me]” (I didn’t!)

    Perhaps this is due to my apparent poor social schmoozing skills (I tend to just shoot straight and tell things like it is and just go with the truth) that I seem to earn all these detractors, even as a result of someone’s doing something so wicked to me as physical battery! It’s amazing to me that I can get slurred and called names just for enduring the infliction of physical harm! Stuns me, actually.

    The bottom line is that I am saddened that my friend would suddenly feel the need to harm me over his anger over something one day, and then repeat it the next day, and then another day. My motivation in revealing it is that it’s the truth and it happened to me – why would I be otherwise motivated? (I’ve gotten mad at Andy hundreds of times during disagreements, often madder than this, and didn’t make a notation of physical violence that wasn’t there.)

    All you people can call me names all you want, and try to figuratively batter me into submission. But it won’t change the fact that my friend suddenly decided to batter me one day out of the blue after not having done so through 6 years of friendship. And it won’t change the fact that he repeated it a day later, and then two days after that – at which point I’ve had enough of being his personal punching bag to take out his frustrations on.

    Of course he’ll deny it – who was I fooling when I told myself that surely he’ll own up to it?

    Anyway, the long and short of it is that I can’t do anything but report the truth, no matter how awkward or p.c. or uncomfortable it is for you guys to handle. But all my life, even when unpopular, I’ve stuck by the truth.

    It should be noted at this point that on many occasions, Andy has demeaned me, yelled at me, berated me constantly, for telling the truth and not lying to someone he wished me lie to.

    When I was owed $679 from the national LP for New Mexico registrations, Ops Mgr Robert Kraus sent me an email asking me if it was correct that he should send out a check to me for $697. I corrected him, telling him that the truth is that it’s $679, not $697. Andy would not let me hear the end of it, saying that because I was owed interest from all those years, that I should have lied and said “Yes, it’s $697.” I lose money by telling the truth. And it looks like I lose friends by telling the truth as well.

  23. Andy

    “Andy did in fact go out of control and batter me.”

    This is BULLSHIT and is a very dishonest thing that you are doing. You are engaging in gross exagerations and distortions of reality. This is SAD behavior from you.

    First off, if I had REALLY “battered” you, you’d have incurred actual injuries.

    Second of all, you in fact ATTACKED ME over 2 signatures on a petition that was OVER, a petition which could have been taped, but was a MOOT point .

    Gary has really gone off the deep end.

    A couple of days after the incident that sparked this (that is 2 worthless petition pages on a petition that was OVER) Gary came to me begging me to pay him for signatures, and I ACTUALLY DID IT. I met with Gary and paid him $120 even that it was not my job to do this. And this is the way that he thanks me, by spreading a bunch of LIES and distorions of reality.

    Wow, some friend that he turned out to be….NOT!

    This is all just a big SMOKESCREEN because Gary is looking for a way to WEASEL out of paying me back the thousands of dollars that I loaned him. PATHETIC.

    I’m REALLY disappointed in you Gary, and I hope that you come to your senses.

  24. Andy

    Below is an email from Gary from when I bailed him out when he got into financial trouble during a (what I considered to be ill advised) trip to Costa Rica. I dropped what I was doing and I drove to a bank and put money in his account as a loan to help somebody who I thought was a friend. Gary had PROMISED me that he was going to work hard to pay me back quickly as soon as he got back from this trip, but this ended up being the first in a very LONG string of excuses from Gary, where he borrowed more money from me, always with the promise that he needed it so that he could work to pay me back shortly thereafter. This has been going on for 2 1/4 years and now he’s come up with this exaggerated bullshit excuse so he can welch on paying me what he owes me.

    I work hard and I tend to be frugal with my money (except when it came to helping out friends, one of whom has just STABBED me in the back and is now causing me to LOSE THOUSANDS of dollars), but I am NOT rich. The amount of money that Gary is ripping me off out of is more than I can really afford to lose.

    I am SUPER DISAPPOINTED in this guy.

    Anyway, I urge everyone reading this to read the email below to see how I bailed him out when he was in Costa Rica. If I knew that he was going to pull this stunt on me that he’s pulling now I would have let him rot down there.

    Re: How’s Costa Rica?
    From: Liberty Crusader Add to Contacts
    To: petition guy
    ; Scott Eller ; Mark Pickens ; Julia Geigle

    ——————————————————————————–

    andy, this computer is difficult to work with, and the ¨shift¨ key is time consuming to get to press and work right, so in the interest of time and ease, i´m going to type all lower case.

    yes, i checked my account and the money is in the account. thank you, thank you, thank you. it saved my ass cuz i think today i would have went into the red had you not done that. if not today, then tomorrow for sure. so it was definitely needed. at the front desk of this hostel, theres a phone and the guy at the front desk, Ricardo i think, was really helpful and spoke english and let me use the phone to call not only a local number, but the 800 number to my bank as well. the bank said they might re credit the $692 to my account and if they did, it would be a few days. ill wait and see.

    today i slept till one in the afternoon, since i was soooo tired. then i went out and looked for some food and something to drink since i was sooo hungry too. the streets do not have street signs on them – none of them! – so i had to walk down the street making sure i kept a good frame of reference. its really wild knowing i´m stepping out into a central american town…cool. i went to the 2nd eating place i saw (a pizzeria was the first) which was a little soda (like a tacqueria) that sells basic costa rican dishes. they didnt speak a word of english but they sat me down at a table and pointed to the sign on the wall as to what i wanted to order. i ordered one of those well-talked about ´´set lunches´´, which come in beef, chicken, pork, etc. i got beef and basically its a plate with a salad, the beef mixed with some gravy with some kind of spice, a couple of small tamale-like things, and white rice and black beans. they didnt have anything to drink except coke and tap water. i know that paul likes to drink tap water but this is central america so i wasn´t so eager. i sipped on it and the meal was $2 american. thirsty, i went over to another soda across the street and got my ´´soda´´ lol, a diet coke but they didnt take american so i had to go to banco de costa rica and exchange some dollars for colones to get my diet coke, with ice no less.

    there are multitudes of hotties on the streets here, i mean like damn!, but they seem about as shy as i am, or at least being in such an exotic place brings out my shyness to everyone. the cab driver last night at the airport was really helpful and found the hostel for me (wasnt even in lonely planet) and its a great place (well, for a shared bathroom and bedroom) but the cab ride into san jose from alajuela, where the airport is, was $16.

    im sleeping on the bottom bunk of a roomful of bunks with a bunch of guys from all over the world. one black guy who sat down on his bed next to me was talking on his cell phone, making me think, WTF, but he was from panama and had a special chip put in his phone to call in costa rica. he spoke english with a slight british accent, but only slight, could have been american except that i know blacks from america dont talk like that.

    the toilets will spill over if you put toilet paper in them, so thats a pain in the butt. otherwise, the bathroom is sterling clean and i got a nice warm shower this afternoon, very comfortable, but had to use my own towel. they will hold your luggage, or any item you want held, for you (even if you move to another hotel) for free, for as long as you want. i saw people doing it, even after i asked and he told me about it. paul would love the $5 wash-dry-fold here at this hostel. i think i will use it rather than try to do my laundry by hand in the sink.

    unless i find a deal on rental cars, i am stuck in downtown san jose, unless i figure out how to use the overwhelming, confusing bus service here, and yes, figuring my way around town with no street signs is over my head, so to speak. at least that will make visiting libertarians in movimiento libertario more appealing and handy.

    krystyna actually also offered to loan me some money, bless her heart, and my first instinct is to say, no its ok, but…given how things tend to crash in on me it probably wouldnt be prudent to turn down the use of funds, even if they just sit in my account, that i might very well need, with a little more bad luck.

    weather is glorious here, mostly room temperature, and i mean the classic room temperature, not pauls version lol, but with a few cool tropical breezes here and there. the computer room here has an open window to the outside patio and it just got dark just now, six pm Central time. i should probably go find some supper soon.

    again, thanks for being there for me and being my net. its true what krystyna said in an email that i had everything all nicely set to go to costa rica, even counting money, before things all went to hell. but i just realized today as i was walking around that yeah, it would have been nice to have you come with me, or better yet, a female come with me lol. its been a pretty dizzying experience here almost one full day after i landed.

    i will keep you further posted. i am also copying some others on this, but no one in the petition business, so i dont have to write this all over and re invent the wheel.

    gary

    petitionguy@yahoo.com> wrote:
    Gary, I went to the bank and deposited $692 for you today. Did you recieve it? I’m assuming that you are going to pay me back in a few weeks, right?

    So how’s it going down there?

  25. Andy

    Gary brought up something about me having left a nasty message to Paul, but he did NOT tell the full story.

    Here’s what REALLY happened. Gary had called me up and told me that Paul wanted to cut me out of working somewhere. I was angry about this because I thought Paul was a friend and I had hooked him up with jobs before this, so I felt as though Paul had betrayed me. So I did in fact leave an angry message for him, HOWEVER, I spoke to Paul after this and Paul explained the situation to me and it turned out that Paul was NOT trying to cut me out of working, so I then APOLOGIZED to Paul for the angry message and that was the end of it.

    Paul did not throw a big crybaby tantrum and Paul and I were FINE after that and the whole the blew over. It was just a misunderstanding. Gary KNOWS this but now he is TWISTING the facts to suit his agenda, which is apparently to smear me and use it as an excuse to not pay me back money that he owes me.

    Paul has certainly turned out to be a better friend than Gary.

  26. Andy

    I want everyone to know here that Gary owes me several thousand dollars. I’d have to go through all of the figures for an exact amount and I don’t have all of that information in front of me at the moment, but it is in the $8,000 range.

    If he does not pay me back this money – which I loaned him over a 2 1/4 year period – then he is essentially STEALING the money from me which makes him a theif.

    I loaned him this money because I thought that I was helping a FRIEND who was in bad situations. I was going to cut it off sooner but the problem was that he kept needing more money to “get back to work” but then something else would always end up going wrong or he would just end up not working.

    If he goes ahead with ripping me off this will be the most that anyone has ever stolen from me in my life and it is more than I can afford to lose.

  27. Andy

    Also, for Gary to say that he paid me back by working in Arizona, California, and Missouri is a LIE.

    He did not earn hardly any money in Arizona and California, and he in fact went into deeper debt with me because of it.

    He did earn good money in Missouri but as of right now I don’t think that even he has been paid any of it (and I suspect that this is the TRUE reason behind him flipping out), and him not getting paid the money from Missouri is NOT my fault, and I in fact spent more time on the phone trying to recoup his Missouri pay than he did!

    Note that I hooked him up with all of those jobs by the way, as well as many others.

  28. bozo the clown

    FINCHER: Jake, I have come to the conclusionn that you are not a good person, with good intentions, and are certainly not a libertarian.

    I base this finding largely on your having not denied (tacit confession) having stolen a rental car, a very serious crime under libertarian doctrine, more indicative of someone who’s a thug. I also base this on your refusal to even listen or entertain what the truth is, while simultaneously and hypocritically speaking about fully informed juries.

    I also base this on your highly vocal criticism of others who inadvertently or incidentally use the State’s “services”, at a time when you take full advantage of them whenever it’s expedient for you to do so (you never denied getting bailed out by a State-run program for getting stiffed for circulating – oh yeah, GOP? – registrations).

    Anyone with an ounce of common sense can tell Andy is engaging in blatant obfuscation regarding his guilt, within a few sentences of his poorly-spun denials.

    I initially took you for someone with more integrity and sharpness; for that, I am regretful.

    Gary

    WITMER: Gary,

    You are out of my good graces now. Take your meds, scumbag.

    You’re clearly insane, and anyone with a teaspoon full of brains can see that. I suspect that your low blood sugar levels are the cause. …You have no idea of how much work you just cut yourself out of with your insane email below.

    Is it Paul, Andy, Myself, etc. who are all insane? …Or is it you?

    Apologize to Andy, pay him back, and you have the chance to redeem yourself. If not, you have no idea of how lonely your self-inflicted diabetic death will be. I’m sure that your delusional brain will interpret this as a threat, but it is not: you are a diabetic who eats candy bars by the dozen. You don’t even have the smarts for self-preservation.

    It’s clear to myself and Andy that your low blood sugar levels have caused your brain to malfunction in a catastrophic way. Luckily for us, this is the “last stop” prior to death. You will soon be dead, due to your inability to control your mouth, incoming or outgoing.

    You’re not a libertarian, not an anarchist, not a moral person: you’re a leech, Gary. Now fuck off and die, now that you’re no longer sucking the lifeblood out of the most generous person you’ve ever met: Andy Jacobs.

    Noone else would have loaned you $8,000. Your trying to welsh on paying him back just shows that your many critics were right about you.

    Again: apologize to Andy, pay him the $8,000 you owe him, and I will overlook your current diabetes-caused brain malfunction. If not, I highly doubt that you have enough friends left to parasitize for another year. A pathetic way to end the 20 year legacy of quasi-libertarian anarcho-goofball Gary Fincher.

    If my words have the ring of truth, it’s because it they are true. The fact that Andy blocked your feeble ego-inspired physical attack on him does not constitute “assault and battery”. You were in a motel room he paid for at the time. You could have simply left, when he destroyed 2 useless petition signatures that were past the final turn-in deadline. Instead, you chose to attack him, in a hotel room he paid for, when he was tired and trying to relax. You actually deserved to be beaten at that time, and it is a credit to Andy’s self-control that you don’t have a single bruise to show for your “assault”. (That should be noted for those who watch your idiotic youtube video on your alleged attack.)

    You owe the last 2 years of your life to Andy’s nearly unlimited kindness. That you now betray him reveals your abject low character to the world.

    You’re a poisonous snake, Gary, cut from the same cloth as Sean Haugh. Emails from you will now go into my trash folder.

    Stop eating simple sugars, idiot! You have advanced type II diabetes!
    http://www.fantastic-voyage.net

    — the information that you need to save your miserable life is at the prior link. It’s more than you deserve.

    This is my final communication to you.

    Peace,

    Jake Witmer
    C: (907) 250-5503

    FINCHER:
    You are clearly nuts, Jake – as evidenced by the way you (unlibertarianly) think people should be allowed to batter, without consequence.

    WITMER: That’s odd, I feel quite sane. Moreover, my blood sugar is under control, and I estimate I have a good 60 years left of natural life, unlike you.

    On the other hand, I know that not a single person in the social network you and I belong to believes a word you say, since you are a known social parasite. Interestingly, you are a collectivist in your personal affairs. So being called “unlibertarian” by a parasitic collectivist who can’t manage on his own without ripping people off is not really something I take seriously.

    I clicked on this just for a laugh at the desperate pathetic low you’ve sunken to, but it didn’t cheer me up. Your emails now go into my spam folder, since that’s what you are, Gary. 200 lbs of diabetic spam. If you have any decency, you will pay Andy the money you owe him, without trying to find a transparent reason to go back on your word.

    My first impression of you was correct. (Remember how your first communication with me was you ordering me to bring you petition sheets when I didn’t even know you? Remember how you viewed me simply as a person who had utility to you? That’s the mark of a social parasite.)

    I’m sure that since you’re incredibly stupid, you will continue to send emails to my spam folder.

    Luckily, I won’t see them.

    Jake Witmer
    C: (907) 250-5503

  29. bozo the clown

    GARY FINCHER: My restraining order – apparently a good idea since Andy won’t stop bombarding me with intimidating messages on my phone and computer – was approved this morning in Riverside County Court. Presently, it’s a temporary restraining order, and it makes it illegal for the subject of the intended restraint to send text messages, phone calls, and emails (and of course personal visits) that are unwelcome by the person making the order. Andy’s multiple, relentless, tactless and thoughtless communications to me at all hours have been illegal since this morning.

    On May 28 at 8:30 am, Andy and I are to appear at a hearing in Riverside County before a judge to determine if there is merit to make the temporary restraining order permanent. The point is for the person requesting the restraint (in this case, me) to demonstrate that the person seeking to be restrained (in this case, Andy) has engaged in violent acts that merit the one staying far away from the other to effect the former’s safety, while the person seeking to be restrained makes a counter-argument to convince the court that he is not violent and thus not a threat.

    When I appear in that courtroom on May 28, I will testify under oath that Andy battered me with criminal intent (evidenced by the endurance of each of the attacks) and therefore should be kept far away from me. I’ll do this in spite of the fact that I’ll have to leave my current work project and travel around 1,300 miles each way to make the appearance, incurring many hundreds of dollars in opportunity costs, wear and tear on my car, and roughly $500 in travel expenses. As yourselves if I’d do this is I weren’t absolutely certain that Andy undertook this violence towards me.

    By contrast, though Andy is claiming he didn’t do any of this, let’s see if he puts his money where his mouth is and makes the trip for the hearing he is invited/ordered to attend. If he doesn’t, what does that say about his conviction of truthfulness of what he is spouting? If he attends, he’ll either have to recant and acquiesce to my account of the incident, or he’ll have to perjure himself under oath. Which will he do? My money goes that he does the weasel thing and doesn’t show!

    Please do not leak this to Andy, no matter how tempting it is. Rest assured Andy will be served by law enforcement wherever he is, so he will have ample opportunity to make the trip – if he dares. But I expect to be in that courtroom without Andy…although I think I’ll have Paul Frankel subpoenaed because I seem to recall testimony from him in years past that Andy has laid hands on Paul. That testimony is critical so Paul will be ordered to make the trip as well. I’ll get that all arranged this week. It’s possible that Paul will opt to go in contempt of court rather than appear, but that’s his choice. If I have to testify alone, so be it.

    The bottom line is that I’m going to do whatever it takes, even at great expense, to make sure Andy doesn’t hit me again, lest he get arrested, no matter where he is in the United States.

    If I appear and testify and Andy doesn’t, then who is the one appearing to be telling the truth? I’ll be putting my money where my mouth is.

  30. bozo the clown

    GARY: Well I guess it shows how unbalanced and stalker-ish Andy is by how he keeps dumping multiple emails into my inbox, after I stopped making any contact with him at all several days ago, asked him to do the same and, when he ignored the warning, filed a restraining order on him. The fact that the restraining order took effect this morning (approved by a judge in Riverside Co.) means that today’s many emails, voice messages and text messages from him are illegal contacts. The man will not stop stalking me.

    The only reason I’m writing this is because, despite the fact that some have told me to “take the high road” and let him come off sounding like the crazy, I have known of cases where unrefuted, though outlandishly preposterous, claims have been lent credence to, and even though I’m not sure whether to refute each and every claim, or just be quiet and take the “high road”, my human nature prods me to refute false claims, especially those about me.

    It bothers me when someone lies, and it bothers me even more when someone lies about something bad they did, and it bothers me even MORE when someone lies about something bad they did to me, and it bothers me even MORE than that when someone lies about something bad they did to me while saying that I’m the one lying instead, and it bothers me EVEN MORE when someone lies about doing something bad to me while calling me a liar and then saying instead that I did that bad thing to them instead of how it really was. And finally, it bothers me to NO END when they do all this and they happen to have been one of my close friends prior to turning their back on me.

    But the preceding is exactly what Andy Jacobs has done to me this past week.

    It’s strange that he is contending that I haven’t answered any questions when I’ve given COMPLETE, ACCURATE detail of everything I’ve said. He hasn’t even asked me any pertinent questions! (Not that I’m talking to him, of course; I refuse to talk to assholes who try to slap me around for their own jollies.)

    What makes this “answering” thing so strange, ironic and probably hypocritical is that I’ll bet anyone who’ll be a taker $100 that Andy doesn’t show for the court hearing on May 28 at 8:30 am to answer questions regarding his role in qualifying for a restraining order. That’s right – there’s a hearing on his restraining order – where he’ll have a chance to formally repudiate and deny having any role in beating on me, at 8:30 am in the Southwest court annex of Riverside County Court on May 28. And even though I’m way out of state right now trying to work and make money, I’ll travel the 1,000+ mile trip to put my money where my mouth is, and testify against Andy for the rotten things he did to me.

    Let’s not forget a few things here. And let’s not overlook demeanor. For starters, Andy has been one of my biggest sources of campaign work over the past 6 years that I’ve known him, and arguably my biggest defenders online when I’ve been smeared unwarrantedly. Why would I testify that my biggest source of work and my biggest defender online committed acts of violence against me if it weren’t true? If we had just gotten into a couple of “scuffles”, why would I do such a thing? Because what he did to me wasn’t a “scuffle”, a “fight”, an “argument” or anything mutual at all. I have proof in Andy’s own words where he admitted “having a role” in what happened: he says he “regrets having a role in it”. Hmmm, how come, then, I am maintaining that I most certainly, without question, HAD NO ROLE in it? All three incidents were completely unprovoked, completely vicious, completely violent, out-of-control ATTACKS where it was evident that Andy was OUT TO HURT ME. I did not lay a hand on him, didn’t return his disproportionate (to the situation) anger, didn’t get into a fight, didn’t participate. End of story. Anything that suggest anything other than this is a lie, whether it’s in lower case or all caps: just untrue.

    Against my better judgment, here goes delving into refuting some of Andy’s malintended stupidity…

    AJ: He won’t anwser questions that I’m asking because he KNOWS that he is not being honest.

    GF: I wasn’t ASKED any questions, as neither the hearing nor the arbitration has yet to occur. I’ve been totally honest thus far, and don’t intend to engage in any dishonesty. I’ll leave all the dishonesty, unfortunately, to Andy.

    AJ: For instance, after the WORTHLESS pieces of paper (as in a petition that was OVER and which Carl Towe said should be TRASHED) were ripped, Gary attacked me. He rushed at me swinging and shoving.

    GF: Only a nut goes on and on about the status of the petition, and he usues the word “worthless” ad nauseum (perhaps it’s a freudian slip on his part?). Notice his clever use of words: “the pieces of paper were ripped”. Play that again: “the pieces of paper were ripped.” Notice how he makes it sound as if the pieces of paper not only weren’t in anyone’s possession (like mine) but that they somehow, mysteriously found themselves in a ripped state? (talk about not answering questions!) Sounds like evasion to me if I’ve never heard it.

    So let’s recap:

    Gary: Andy reached over and violently ripped up pieces of paper of mine that I was quietly writing on.

    Andy: Worthless [presumably stray] pieces of paper were ripped.

    Gary: Sound like someone is not taking responsibility for something?

    Andy would have you believe that MY WRITING ON “WORTHLESS” PAPER, coupled with the papers ripping up on their own, constitutes “rushing and swinging”, or “an attack”. Anything sound kooky about that?

    AJ: So who attacked who first? Who was it that INITIATED force?

    GF: Well, that would be Andy. Starting with reaching over onto my side of the table, violently ripping up my papers I had been writing on, and then extending the attack to hitting me hard, fast and relentlessly with his arms and fists, it was an attack and the attacker’s name was Andy, not Gary.

    AJ: Gary will either have to dodge these questions or flat out LIE,

    GF: Nope, there is a third alternative: answer the questions AND tell the truth. That’s generally my habit.

    AJ: or he can do the right thing and ADMIT that he attacked me over two WORTHLESS PIECES OF PAPER (which could have been taped, but was not even worth doing).

    GF: The RIGHT thing is to say that the WRITE thing doesn’t constitute an “attack”. Why do I even have to spell out that writing on a piece of paper isn’t an attack of any kind? Also, isn’t it curious, speaking of answering questions or lying, why Andy never explains the mystery of just how the papers got ripped? Did my pen rip them? Did I rip them accidentally? Did I rip them on purpose? My eyewitness testimony asserts that Andy was the one who ripped the papers. Why can’t Andy’s counter-testimony be as clear and detailed?

    AJ: I asked Gary to leave my motel room several times after this.

    GF: No, only a couple of times. And they were tossed around like balls in a jackpot machine with other demands to stay in the room. Curious – why doesn’t Andy mention this fact as well?

    AJ: The motel room was in my name and I paid for it and Gary never gave me one penny for reimbursement. SO I HAD EVERY LEGAL AND MORAL RIGH TO ASK HIM TO LEAVE MY ROOM.

    GF: Well, except that he gave me a room key. If he desired me out of the room, why did he give me a room key and then ask me to stay in the room alternating with the bizarre simultanous requests to leave? And how come he never asked for his key back? Even after the attack was over and I was out of the room? He even knew I had a key and he even invited me back into the room, even begged. My video showed this. So what’s going on here?

    AJ: Did Gary comply with my request to leave my motel room AFTER he attacked me and waved around the WORTHLESS petition sheets (since that petition ENDED)?

    GF: Why does he keep talking about the status of the petition? Could it be that he’s obsessed with petition drive statuses and he gets TOTALLY OUTRAGED along with his obsession, even to the point of hurting another human being? Also, it’s no wonder a person can’t answer Andy’s questions: they are trick questions. How can anyone answer the above question?? It’s like, “Do you still beat your wife?” I couldn’t have complied with the request to leave the room after I attacked him, because, well, most fundamentally, because I didn’t attack him – he attacked me. Not a funny atttempt at a joke, Andy.

    AJ: He either did or he didn’t. Let’s see if Gary will anwser this one.

    GF: Andy insists someone answer trick questions and then goes on and on about how they aren’t “able to”. What a nut.

    AJ: Once again, Gary will either have to dodge the question or LIE, OR he can do the RIGHT thing and tell the TRUTH.

    GF: I did do the right thing and told the truth – I exposed it (above) for being a trick question.

    AJ: Then I informed Gary that I was going to throw him out myself if he did not leave.

    GF: Nice try, but that didn’t happen.

    AJ: I TOLD HIM that I was going to throw him out myself if he did not leave, so did he comply with my request that he exit MY ROOM even after I said this or did he continue to stay in the room AFTER I had asked him to leave?

    GF: Well, depends on which time he is talking about, but in fact I did leave the room after the first attack, on my own volition, without being asked to. After returning to retrieve the petition pages that Andy ripped up, it (and he) got weirder, as Andy alternated between asking me to stay and asking me to go, all the while using my body as a punching bag and trying to hurt and injure me. Andy is in fact crazy, and I found this out by how he uses people for punching bags when he irrationally gets angry at them (my “sin” was writing affidavits on petitions he deemed had enough signatures). On that second stint in the room, his battery actually prevented me (for a time) from leaving the room.

    AJ: He either did or he dijdn’t. Let’s see if Gary tells the TRUTH here or will he lie or dodge this question.

    GF: While I don’t appreciate having to navigate my way through trick questions by His Cleverness, I did just tell the truth above. Navigating through a decidedly trick question is NOT dodging. Nice try, Andy.

    AJ: I then walked over to the bed where Gary was sitting and I asked him once again to leave the room. Did he leave at this point?

    GF: Another trick question. Did I leave at the point where he “walked” over to the bed? Did Andy leave at the point where I sang alto better than Luciano Pavarotti? Can you answer THAT question, Andy? Huh? Huh? Gonna dodge it, are ya?

    AJ: He either did or he didn’t. Come on Gary, anwser this question TRUTHFULLY, don’t lie or dodge.

    GF: As soon as you answer me – and don’t dodge – whether you left your own room soon as I hit that opera note and humbled Pavarotti.

    AJ: Since Gary REFUED to leave I then pushed him and he fell back on the mattress.

    GF: Nice try. But it was an all-out attack and barrage of punches. Andy is acting like it was slo-mo and he was considerate and gave me time to think about anything. This decidedly did NOT happen – that latter thing. Andy was in extreme, out-of-control angry mode, was out to hurt me and didn’t give a shit as to what I did or did not answer.

    AJ: He was then on his back flailing his arms around and I grabbed his wrists, one in each hand. I said that I ought to puch him, BUT I DID NOT DO THIS, AND THEN I RELEASED HIM AFTER A FEW SECONDS. That’s right, I LET HIM GO AND DID NOT HIT HIM.

    GF: If Andy gets tired of becoming a petitioner, he can always write fictional dramas. Actually, it isn’t funny. This really pisses me off that he would make so light of a serious and dangerous situation where he was punching me out of control where it hurt and I could have been injured. He says he “did not hit [me]” but that’s so completely opposite of the truth: he was ALL ABOUT hitting me.

    AJ: I realized that it was a stupid arguement and not worth either of us getting hurt over and that it was not even worth argueing at all. I walked over to the other side of the room and tried to cool things down. Did it happen like this or did it not happen like this?

    GF: No, to answer Andy’s mal-intended question, it did NOT happen like this? Andy never tried to cool a fucking thing off. And he’s a bastard for even suggesting he did, considering how hot-headed he was through the whole thing. He was a THUG. A ROTTEN thug.

    AJ: This either happened or it did not happen. Gary can either verify that this is what happened or he can lie or dodge the issue.

    GF: Nope, I can tell the truth and certify (I’m putting mine in written and oral testimony under penalty of perjury and submitting it to a court – are you?)

    AJ: I tried and tried to cool the situation down with Gary.

    GF: No, you fucking asshole, you didn’t. You tried to fucking injure me.

    AJ: I even invited him to go out to eat and I said that it would be my treat. I went to great lengths to have a rational discussion with him to smoothe things over, but he refused to try. Did I try to cool things down and patch things up, or did I not do this?

    GF: Here Andy is misleading y’all because these things happened MORE THAN A DAY later. And given that he had just tried to injure me, why the hell would I want to have anything more to do with him?

    AJ: I either did try to cool things down and patch things up or I did not. Gary can either tell the TRUTH by admitting that I did, or he can dodge the question or lie.

    GF: Crafting more clever trick questions. The best alternative is to tell the truth and say that he didn’t try to cool anything down in the heat of the moment. Sure, he tried to lure me back so I could find myself ending up in a situation where he’d eventually punch me again (which may have had a silver lining of a good idea, since I could have orchestrated a hidden surveillance camera for next time), but this doesn’t fit the “try to cool things down” category.

    AJ: Gary came back to me a couple of days later begging me to pay him for some petition signatures (even though it is NOT my job to do this). Gary either did this or he did not do this. Come on Gary, did you do this or did you not do this?

    GF: First of all, Andy OFFERED to buy any signatures I had, expressly. Keep in mind that, when we left Missouri, they withheld much of our money but the money the proponents DID give us, Andy took it and KEPT IT ALL TO HIS GODDAMN SELF, sharing none of it with me. As a result, I was broke, while he had the wad of our Missouri cash on his person. Come on, Andy – did this happen or didn’t it happen? Andy can either lie and say it didn’t happen or he can dodge the (not trick) question. So since he had ALL of our Missouri money, I was strapped for cash and HAD NO CHOICE but to liquidate some signatures. So I agreed with him and let him buy me some. But not inside his room. At a public place with people around.

    AJ: This either happened or it did not happen. Gary can tell the truth, or he can dodge the question or lie.

    GF: It did happen, and I never lied about it. But he will probably lie about having all our Missouri money (at least I expect him to).

    AJ: I agreed to meet with Gary to pay him on his signatures and we met in a Wendy’s restaurant. Now if I’m such a horrible guy, why did Gary come to me to get paid and why did he meet with me in the Wendy’s restaurant? Did this meeting taking place?

    GF: Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but Andy IS a horrible guy – a rotten, violent prick coward who likes to hurt people when he doesn’t like what they’re doing, saying or when he doesn’t get his way. The better question is: if Andy is NOT such a horrible guy, then why did I insist on meeting him at a PUBLIC PLACE (Wendy’s) instead of trusting him again in a closed-up, private motel room? So I’ll spell it out: The meeting took place at a public Wendy’s because I didn’t trust Andy not to get hot and use me as a punching bag if it had taken place where there were no witnesses; I was trying to learn my lesson.

    AJ: Gary can either anwser these questions truthfully, or he can lie or dodge them.

    GF: It’s Andy’s lucky day – as I’m answering his questions truthfully, even weeding through the trick ones when I’ve got better things I could be doing.

    AJ: I sat down across the table from Gary at that Wendy’s and tried to talk with so we could patch things up, but Gary would not listen and he rushed me to give him the money. Did this happen?

    GF: Yes, it happened because I HAD NO INTEREST in “patching things up” with a terrorist! And, after all THESE lies he’s told, why would I want to listen to ANYTHING he’s said or says? Would you?

    AJ: Gary can anwser this truthfully, or he can deny it which would be a lie, or he can dodge the question.

    GF: Didn’t dodge and didn’t lie; can’t say the same for Andy. He even lies in his sentence structures!

    AJ: I then handed Gary $120 for the signatures even though it was NOT my job to do that. Gary took the money and bolted out of the restaurant. So I either handed Gary the $120 and he quickly left the restaurant or this did not happen, which is it?

    GF: Of course it happened. What reason do I have to stick around longer than 5 seconds with someone who’s a liar, a thug, an aggressor and generally has no good character?

    AJ: Once again, Gary can anwser the question truthfully or he can lie or he can dodge the question.

    GF: I just answered it truthfully: I in fact DON’T trust Andy after trying to hurt me three times with his violent outbursts.

    AJ: The bottom line is that Gary incurred ZERO injuries and ZERO financial damages.

    GF: This is arrogant as hell. How the fuck does HE know what “injuries” I’ve incurred. For his information, throwing the phone book at me (which he still fails to admit doing, let alone mentioning) caused a bruise and momentary nausea. Also, Andy KNOWS all the times I’ve been hit, beaten, and tortured in my life by strangers and how traumatizing it is for me mentally. And yet the motherfucker cares so little for me that he PILES ON and ADDS TO my torment. What a hoodlum!

    AJ: Now Gary wants to use incidents where he was NOT damaged as an excuse to cause MAJOR financial damage to me by not paying me back the thousands of dollars that he owes me in direct loans as well as expenses that I fronted to him (in the form of motels, gas, food, etc…) for which he promised to reimburse me and has yet to do. Gary either borrowed money from me and had expenses paid by me, both of which he PROMISED to pay me back, or he didn’t. Which is it Gary, did you or did you not borrow money from me and have expenses paid by me, both of which you PROMISED to pay me back, or did you not?

    GF: Andy is totally perverting the financial situation between he and I so much that I don’t even know where to START clarifying. However, when it comes to specific numbers, I’m told that it’s not a good idea to get into it with those whom it’s none of their business, so I should follow that advice. Andy is also forgetting to add that the Missouri propoents gave us several thousands of dollars as we left Missouri, and he took it and kept it all to himself, sharing none of it with me (basically tantamount to causing me to be stiffed, while getting himself paid in full, although I’m quite SURE their intent was NOT to pay him in full while stiffing me – I could even ask them that question directly!)

    AJ: Gary can eitehr anwser this TRUTHFULLY or he can LIE or he can dodge the question.

    GF: Well, why doesn’t Andy answer the question of the Missouri money directly and honestly, or will he just lie like he’s doing with all the other?

    AJ: If Garyanwsers these questions truthfully he will have to admit that there were no damages to him

    GF: There is NO WAY that this situation was not “damaging”. In fact, there have been people who would literally blow away soneone for attacking them the way Andy attacked me. And I’d probably have done it the 3rd time if I’d had a gun.

    AJ: and that he in fact does owe me money and that if he does not pay me back the money which he promised to pay me he will be committing FRAUD.

    GF: My plan all along has been to pay the several hundred (not several thousand as he claims) dollars I owe him. However, HE has just committed fraud, so wouldn’t one fraud cancel out another fraud? And why should I let him get by with damaging me mentally (torment, traumatize)? And finally, I’m not going to have anything more to do with him so if he comes my way to get anything from me, HE is violating a RESTRAINING ORDER. Funny how I’ve never, ever gotten a restraining order against anyone. Ever ask yourself why I would get one against him?

    AJ: Gary gave me his WORD that he’d pay me back the money borrowed and the expenses which I paid for him. If Gary violates his WORD that is a breach of contract and not paying me is a act of THEFT.

    GF: And Andy gave his WORD (on LP pledge) that he would not initiate force. Yet he did. Are all bets off now?

    AJ: So Gary, you either gave me your WORD that you’d pay me back the money borrowed and expenses which I paid out for you or you didn’t, which is it?

    GF: Which is it with Andy on keeping his word? If he owes me restitution, it may end up being MORE than the lousy amount I owe him leftover from the amounts I borrowed.

    AJ: You can either be HONEST and admit that you gave me your WORD that you’d pay me back or you can LIE or dodge the question.

    GF: I don’t think that my WORD (our contract) had any provision for you committing a CRIME against me, asshole.

    AJ: If you tell the truth then I think that there is still hope for you.

    GF: Fuck you, violent asshole.

    AJ: If you decided to do the right thing I’m willing to welcome you back with open arms.

    GF: Once again, Fuck You, violent asshole. I’ll rot in hell before I let you near me again so that you can slap me around. Find someone else to smack around!

    AJ: if you decided to LIE then you will be known as a VILE individual who RIPS OFF people who go to great lenghts to help you. If you dodge these questions then it tells that you’ve got something to hide.

    GF: I’ve got news for you: people who smack people around physically just because they don’t like what they are doing when they are minding their own business, are VILE individuals. I don’t ever hit anyone, because I respect people’s bodies. You can’t say that anymore (if you ever could).

    AJ: So tell us Gary, which is it going to be, are you going to tell the TRUTH and do the RIGHT thing, or are you going to LIE and DODGE questions like the typical weasel politicans that you’ve rallied against for all of these years?

    GF: Well, I have told you (although “you” aren’t going to see this, and I hope that the people I’m sending this to don’t leak it to you & be a troublemaker) that I don’t lie and I have been telling the truth, unlike what you’ve been doing.

  31. bozo the clown

    GARY: I am getting really tired of Andy’s attempts to intimidate me by his refusal of disclosure of the battery and the nonstop barrage of text messages, calls and emails at all hours, including ones seeking to convince others that I’ve done to him what he actually did to me. Every time I get one I feel like I have to correct it, yet where will it stop? Can I correct every single one of them, even if they come every single day? It’s apparent that at some point I have to stop wasting my time on it, yet something seems weird to me about letting him have the “last word” – the last false word at that.

    Obviously, I am not as stupid as Andy is, that is, I’m NOT trying to “debate” *him* on what happened, as he knows well what happened. That would be beyond ridiculous to try to say anything AT ALL to him. (Yet, strangely, he is sending me emails trying to convince me, who was there and know what happened, that what happened didn’t happen, and what didn’t happen, happened.) In fact I have not sent him any communications since May 12. The ONLY reason I am even bothering AT ALL to respond to these messages of his is that I don’t like the idea of his trying to brainwash other people I know in his quest to turn them against me. I think a critical read of his Mexican Jumping Mattress story proves he’s lying and shooting in the dark.

    In these latest emails, he’s trying to master Orwellian Newspeak. In other words, virtually everything he’s saying about me, represents, really, an inverse denial by him.

    Some of his attempts at twisting are very odd, some aren’t. When the Miami cops battered me for collecting signatures at a post office in Miami many years ago, their “out” was to accuse me of battering *them*. Andy knows this ploy works, and it works well, so he’s using it. Not weird. Depraved, maybe, but common.

    The really strange part is saying that I “attacked” him by writing on two petitions. How the heck is WRITING on petition forms “attacking”? That’s all I was doing with them – writing on them. I have said it before, but I’ll say it again: when Andy asked me what I was doing and I told him that I was writing on the petitions, he went into attack mode, ripped them up and continued trying to “rip into” me.

    This is NOT libertarian behavior, as it is INITIATION of force (lying that you didn’t do it would be initiation of fraud). It’s silly of him for him to assert that I’m not a libertarian because HE attacked me upon finding out I was writing on two petitions. However, it DOES represent “bearing false witness” on his part (certainly not on mine).

    Andy is also lying by grossly overstating how much money I owe him. He never loaned me $8,000. I have records of the three amounts that I borrowed from him. They once added up to a few thousand dollars, but since that time, I’ve gradually paid them down. There is no need for me to go into details of what I owe him with people who aren’t part of the deals, it’s pretty silly. Just know that he is lying when he says I owe him $8,000.

    I think Carl Towe would want to be left out of this, and I’m quite certain he wouldn’t condone someone’s physically attacking another just because they were writing on some petitions, whether those petitions were active or not.

  32. bozo the clown

    LOL, this amount has been repaid a long time ago. History.

    Andy should be careful with who he puts in that “Reply To” slot – he’s about to have a restraining order approved on him that will deem such actions to be actionable by police all across the United States.

    (But don’t pass this message of mine on to him to get him riled up. Besides, I’d love an ambush. Click. Go ahead, make my day.)

    — On Mon, 5/17/10, petition guy wrote:

    From: petition guy
    Subject: ANDY BAILED GARY OUT IN COSTA RICA

  33. bozo the clown

    GARY: Did not realize Andy would fabricate so much as a part of his denial defense. But here goes setting the record accurate:

    AJ: Here’s what happened:

    1) Gary charged at me swinging and shoving over two pieces of worthless paper that could have been taped.

    GARY: The only time I can be said to have “charged at” him was well into the battery, after he ripped up the papers I was writing on, started hitting on me for daring to write on papers he considered moot, violently tried to push me out a 3rd story glass window and threw a thick phone book 90 mph at my forearm, causing tremendous pain, nausea and a slight bruise (he says there are “no damages” from this, but I’m sorry to say that that’s not the standard on how to decide whether to start punching on someone). At the phone book throwing point, yes, I charged back at him. But my god, anyone would have by the time they were abused to that point!

    AJ: 2) I blocked him.

    GARY: Huh?? There was no “blocking” on his part. He was totally in the offensive, full-steam ahead aggressive mode. I could do nothing to effectively dodge his assault; I could barely get away when I did and make it out of the room. I suppose when someone is THAT vicious in their physical attack, they’re gonna deny it (and better yet, say that YOU did it).

    AJ: 3) He then sat on one of the beds in the room and waved the worthless paper around while shouting about how he was going to have me arrested.

    GARY: Andy can be forgiven for being ignorant in economics, as “worthless” is in the subjective eye of the beholder, but in this case, who cares? At first I showed shock over how my so-called friend would tear my papers up without my permission, but when vandalism instantly turned to violent assault, the papers, worthless or not, went “back burner” REAL fast. It became about getting out of the room in one piece. I did manage to spend a couple of minutes in between assaults to go over the papers to see how they were torn, but that was a minor segment of the total time this all ate up. The bottom line is that Andy freaked over two signatures on a piece of paper, and is STILL freaking out about it (sending me 4minute long voice messages explaining how to build a paper mill) while almost all along this, for me, was about battery and the disappointment over how my so-called friend would want to hurt me and torment me.

    AJ: 4) I asked him to leave the room (more than once – and note that it was my room since I paid for it and it was under my name).

    GARY: One of the many contradictory things he was saying was “get out of the room”, yes, but he was also saying “please stay” and several other kinda crazy things, mostly regarding the petition. Granted, two signatures aren’t very many, but you have to ask yourself why someone would get SO angry, to the point of violence, over them, when they aren’t even their signatures in the first place!

    AJ: 5) Gary refused to leave and continued to shout about how he was going to have me arrested.

    GARY: Rephrased: “Gary COULDN’T leave (because I was too busy slapping him around to let him)”. I only spoke about having him arrested AFTER I returned to the room after leaving once, to retrieve the torn pieces of paper (I had been thinking ‘Sean Haugh’ and figured I needed some evidence.) Incidentally, Eileen Ray told me that destruction of signatures is a crime in and of itself, without the battery. Just FYI.

    AJ: 6) I told Gary that if he did not leave I was going to throw him out myself.

    GARY: Not totally sure, but perhaps that particular string of words were uttered by him during the episode. There was a lot of fast talking so it may have been said. However, it was mitigated by all the crying (sobbing, actually) and the “please stay” ‘s.

    AJ: 7) I walked over to where he was sitting and told him to leave and then I shoved him.

    GARY: This one is easy to debunk. Andy did absolutely NO walking during all of this. It was all ALL-OUT BLITZ mode when it came to Andy and his slap-happy self that day. He did a heck of a lot more than just “shove” me, I guarantee.

    AJ: 8) He fell back on the bed (note that he was sitting when I shoved him) and from his back began flailing his arms around.

    GARY: Oh good grief, this is silly. I never “flailed” my arms around. Geez. And I wasn’t always sitting on the bed (standing, mostly) when he shoved me, hit me, slapped me, punched me, kicked me. Most of it took place in the middle of the room or by the window.

    AJ: 9) I grabbed both of his arms and then I said that I ought to punch him in the face (BUT I DID NOT DO THIS!).

    GARY: Is Andy trying to win an Academy Award here for his portrayal. Goddamn straight he hit me in the face – and everywhere else he could get to. Fortunately, I was mostly covering my head and face with my arms and hands, but that only freed his arms and hands to do more punching on me everywhere. Andy NEVER said that he “ought to” do some kind of violence. Anything he felt he “ought to” do, he just went ahead and did. What a bullshitter.

    AJ: 10) I then thought about what a stupid & silly arguement that this was and about how Gary is a FRIEND and that friends shouldn’t be fighting or argueing like this (especially over something that was so stupid & silly), and not wanting either of us to get hurt, so I LET GO of him and walked over to the other side of the room and tried to cool the situation down.

    GARY: Andy STILL doesn’t seem to think his actions are “stupid” and I’d characterize them more as “disgusting” and “dangerous” and “scary”. “Stupid” and “silly” are farther down my list of adjectives for it.

    AJ 11) I told Gary that I’m sorry that I got angry and that I participated in this arguement multiple times and I also said that he could stay and I even offered to treat him to a meal and I later even offered to let him stay in the room for the rest of the week for free (these were meant as goodwill gestures).

    GARY: First of all, I’m not interested in apologies for “getting angry”. “Getting angry” is perfectly acceptable; battery is not. The dots Andy is failing to connect here is that he got angry and THEN got violent, and THEN initiated force and fraud, a very unlibertarian thing to do. He also claims “participation” (curiously, because I’M not claiming “participation”) and one-sided battery is NOT an “argument”. He did offer days later to let me stay in the room for free, but then again, he always lets me stay in his room for free (I usually decline his offer, though).

    AJ: 12) Gary came back a few days later desperate for money and wanting me to buy signatures off of him. I’m not a coordinator and it is not my job to do this and I am not making any money off of him, but I agreed to meet with him to do this anyway. I said that Gary could come up to my motel room and that I’d pay him be he refused and said that I should come down to the parking lot. I told him that I had to take a shower and he got sick of waiting for me in the parking lot so he waited inside a Wendy’s that’s attached to the parking lot. I went in the Wendy’s and sat across from him and he acted pretty strange. I thought that we’d talk and work things out but he rushed me to give him the money. I gave him the money ($120) and then he immediately took off and barely said anything.

    GARY: Um, it wasn’t exactly this way. While it may be true that Andy’s not a coordinator, he DID offer to buy any signatures I had from me, which I critically needed to do (low on funds). He did ask me up to the room, but at that point I’ll be DAMNED if I allow myself again to be in the same room with him, with no one else inside. So I called (I didn’t want to even call and talk to the monster, but I planned to stop contact with him after I’d received the payment for the signatures) and told him I’d be over to sell them. When I pulled into the vicinity, I immediately went to the Wendy’s and called to tell him that that’s where I’ll be (you know – a public place where he won’t try to batter me). He took forever to get over there, but I assure you I didn’t consider going up to his room and then decided last-minute to hit the Wendy’s. Acted strange? Ya think? No shit I acted strange – he’d just punched and slapped me around for no reason three times in the past 4 days! Who the hell wouldn’t act differently. He had me friggin’ intimidated.

    Oh and yes, I rushed out, never to hope to see him again.

    AJ: 13) I have continued to try to patch things up with Gary and he refuses to listen. NO injuries occurred and there was NO real property damage except for two WORTHLESS (since it was PAST the FINAL TURN IN and the petitions had already been FILED) pieces of paper which could have been taped. Contrast this with two arguements that he had with Jane (the woman he is dating in Tennessee) who SCRATCHED him during two arguements, drawing blood and leaving stratch marks both times. Is he “fining” Jane as well (it also doesn’t seem right that a person can arbitrarily invent their own “fines” and deduct it from money that they rightfully owe someone, especially when ZERO damage was done to them) out of money that he owes her? Considering that it was a silly arguement in which ZERO damage was done why can’t Gary reconcile and let things go back to normal which is what I’ve been TRYING to do?

    GARY: Well, it may be the m.o. of the physically abusive class to perpetually be game for “patching things up” with their victims, but I’m not quite so sure it works the other way around. Andy is also flat-out lying about Jane, as she scratched my face during an argument on only ONE occasion – not two, not three, not four, etc. In addition, hers was just a single lashing out in the heat of a split second of anger. Andy’s, by contrast, was enduring for several minutes. It’s like the difference between a snake striking and biting, and a bear mauling, except that Andy’s probably took longer than a bear mauling would. A one-strike lash is bad enough, but there is NO EXC– USE for an enduring, relentless, not holding back, multiple-minute assault and battery session. None. And I will not tolerate it. Also, Andy seems to forget all the money I’ve paid him back and with this amnesia, thinks that I owe him more money than I actually currently do. I actually only borrowed amounts from him of $692, $1700 and $2500. The last two were to fix my car. I’ve paid quite a bit on those now, to where the amount owed is likely around $1,000 or maybe even under. But that’s for me to sort out, not him or anyone else.

  34. bozo the clown

    AJ: I hit the mattress while telling him to stop agitating Christy. I did not intend for the combination of the mattress sliding a few inches and his weight on the other side of the bed to cause the mattress to tip,

    GF: Tell you what – if Andy can re-simulate what he is contending occurred with a king-sized bed and king-sized mattress, and he’s successful even ONE (I’ll be generous and give him 100 shots at it) time, I’ll throw in the towel on this – and become Andy’s personal servant for life to boot!

  35. bozo the clown

    GARY: While Andy takes a little time to ruminate on how he’s gonna tell the overturned table incident, I’ll go ahead and beat him to the punch, telling once again how it really happened, followed by what Andy’s version is gonna be.

    What happened:

    The second attack occurred later on May 6, while I was sitting at one of the chairs and at the round motel room table. The topic of Christy and Missouri/disability came up again, even though I had already found out what I needed to know (rumor untrue like she told me). I relayed Christy’s response that Andy must have lied (and boy, have I recently found out how he lies!) to me, which set Andy off again and he charged across the room, arms raised in threatening fashion. I initially thought he’d just come over to the table and keep yelling at me with raised arm, which I planned to ignore (maybe yell at him to shut up or something of the like). However, immediatley upon reaching the table, he began hitting me with his arms and fists, violently and relentlessly, while I crouched and covered my head with my arms. After hitting me for a few seconds, he wasn’t satisfied by his attack, so he turned the table over on me (I fell over still seated in the chair, and hit my head on the floor). Andy then pushed the table into my gut, pinning me between the table and the fallen chair. I was docile throughout the entire ordeal, and was worried, scared, tormented, traumatized – you name it. I continued to lie there even after Andy walked away. I closed my eyes and wished this was a dream or a nightmare. My head was already partially in a long, shotgun-closet, so I just crawled further into the closet and dared not come out, taking a nap for a while. Andy calmed down, and was full of apologies and kept asking me to come out of the closet. But even though he kept saying he was “sorry”, he never once said “I’m sorry for hitting (battering, punching, etc) you.” It seemed his conscience was bothering him so bad that a few hours later, when we went to eat at L & L Hawaiian BBQ, Andy uncharacteristically sprang for my dinner without even asking for it to be repaid. He kept getting up and getting my drinks and ice for me, and my utensils, even though I was quite capable of getting them myself: he seemed humbled and very much a man with a guilty conscience.

    How Andy will say it happened:

    Gary was sitting at the table calling Christy a slut and a bitch, and threatening to kill the people in Missouri for, as he put it, “robbing him blind.”. I love Christy (I actually love her too much) so the thought of Gary spewing those obsenities was killing me and become more than I could bear. Since I was more enraged than I ever have been in my life, I slowly walked over to the table, and very calmly and in a quiet voice, said, “Gary, I’m angry right now. What do you think of it?” He could barely hear me because I was speaking so softly, so I had to turn the air conditioner off so that he could hear me well. When he finally heard me politely say that he’s made me angry, he started yelling obsenities at me, and clenching his fists at me like he wanted to fight. I went over to the table so that I could reach across and softly touch his hands and say “Please don’t do that, Gary – you’re starting to frighten me.” But when I did, I accdentally bumpbed the very edge of the round motel room table with my hip.

    Gary had been about a foot away from the table, seated in a wooden chair. Well, the wood from the tree must have “come alive” or something, because that table started to wobble on its foundation, and then wobbled some more and then started wobbling really violently. I thought at first we were having an earthquake!

    The table tipped over on its own – I didn’t touch it – and rather than bounce off his pot belly and come to rest erect again, the thing seemed to have a life of its own and Gary screamed (more obsenities about Christy and me, of course) as the edge of the table kept coming at him, so hard that it impaled into his gut, reverberating right through his thick abdomen and to the chair, causing the chair to fall as well, with him in it. I swear I didn’t touch a thing! At this point, the darn mattress came loose from the bed again and landed on top of the table, offering enough weight to keep Gary pinned (that’s why he complained that his gut felt injured) between the table and chair. And that’s the honest TRUTH about how Gary ENDED UP like that. Gary will try to say that the table didn’t fall over on its own and do all that damage, but that’s BULLSHIT. The table DID fall over with the weight of a Rhinoceros.

    GARY: It’s difficult for all you casual observers not versed in hard sciences like physics to sort out who is telling the truth. But I was there and I saw an enraged Andy Jacobs come tearing at me and topple the table over on top of me. It happened like that, not the way Andy’s gonna say it happened.

  36. bozo the clown

    It was neglected to be added that the ‘Mexican Jumping Mattress’ saga, Andy-version, took place in a frozen cornfield.

  37. Jessica Irons

    I see the loser crew is back.

    Gary – the woman beating slob who forged voter registrations in New Mexico

    Paul – the convicted felon, rapist, child molester and crackhead who forged signatures in Oregon

    Andy – the original inspiration for the character in the 40 year old virgin. He hasn’t been caught forging yet, but since he hangs around with Gary and Paul there is a pretty high probability that he is a forger just like his loser friends. He always acts crazy and has to be removed by police because he petitions at grocery stores without permission and yells at people.

    Andy is currently stalking a young woman in Tennessee. He recently had to be fired from the voter registration drive in Arizona for deranged behavior and low quality work.

    All three have been fired in North Carolina and then again nationally by Sean Haugh, who is by far the best political director the Libertarian Party has ever had.

    Paul is now on the executive committee of the Alabama LP even though he is actually a homeless bum who hitchhikes all over the country and posts lies and slanders here against Sean Haugh, Christina Tobin, Angela Keaton, Richard Winger, Michelle Shinghal, Scott Kohlhaas and ElfNinosMom – all due to petty jealousy against his betters. Incidentally he is also a plagiarist.

    Roger Pope and Joe Knight have the straight scoop on these guys. They should be blackballed from petition drives, kicked off this website like they were at Last Free Voice, and ostracized at party meetings.

    All petition contracts should go to Free and Equal and competent petitioners like Eric Dondero, David Jackson, Ronn Cook, Edee and Russ Baggett and Darryl Bonner.

    The GAP boys are now turning on each other here over money. Don’t trust them, and don’t hire Mark Pickens who is just a front for them.

  38. Pankel Fraudankel

    Pankel Fraudankel,

    “That you killed your wife
    (and buried her in a shallow grave in Mexico)”

    Frankel had a wife? I thought he was a faggot.

    We’ve been keeping this prick under surveillance for a while, and we never seen him with any broads. He used to rent hookers, but we figured it was just for appearances or maybe to score dope.

    We never see his other petition butt buddy Andy Jacobs with any chicks either. But we did see Jacobs and Frankel rent motel rooms with one bed in them. Hmmmmmm.

    Oh yeah, Frankel also is known to frequent XXX movie theaters. For anyone who doesn’t know, that’s where homos go to jerk each other off and fuck. We only know about that because we own a bunch of those places.

    Oh and Paulie boy, you know that $80,000 you borrowed in 1989? 30% compound interest a week for 20 years.

    Do the math, fanook, and start making payments again, or you’ll be the one getting buried in a shallow grave in Mexico, with your knees capped, your hands cut off, a pool cue up your ass, and your dick and balls stuffed in your mouth.

    Capice?

    “Sure, for lots of Russian girl on girl action, check out Stalinistas dot com.”

    Are those real girls, or is that Frankel with his tits shaved and his prick tucked back, and Jacobs in drag?

  39. Pankel Fraudankel

    Was Frankel born a commie
    Or did you work at it your whole life?
    Either way it worked out fine
    ‘Cause you’re a commie tonight

    Yes you’re a C-O-M-M-I-E
    And don’tcha try to blame it on me
    You deserve all the credit
    You’re a commie tonight

    You were a commie yesterday
    You’re a commie tonight
    I’ve got a feeling
    You’ll be a commie the rest of your life

    I was talking to your mother
    Just the other night
    I told her I thought you were a commie
    She said “Yes, I think you’re right”

    And all your friends are commies
    ‘Cause you’ve known them your whole life
    And somebody told me
    That you killed your wife
    (and buried her in a shallow grave in Mexico)

    Were you born a commie
    Or did you work at it your whole life?
    Either way it worked out fine
    ‘Cause you’re a commie asshole tonight

  40. Pankel Fraudankel

    PS Don’t ever hire any of these loser pricks and that includes the car thief Jake Witmer….

    Sean Haugh has an approved contractors list that is the definitive guide to who is hirable, and who is not. You can contact him at Free And Equal.

  41. Pankel Fraudankel

    Eric Dondero // May 16, 2010 at 9:00 am

    Yes Paulie, we all know that you once lived in Communist Russia. So, why then are you so quick to defend the Communists, and to criticize the one and only person who beat the Soviet Union?

    One might even surmise that you have some sort of “other agenda.”

    What a coincidence that on virtually everything you lean Left.

    Hmmm? Not a native-born American. Comes from a Communist country. Bashes Ronald Reagan. Defends the former Soviet Union.

    My gosh, starting to look really, really fishy.

    Eric Dondero // May 16, 2010 at 9:16 am

    Either you’re not at all aware of the evils of Soviet Communism, a complete ignoramus, or actively working for the Left in America (i.e. Communists and Socialist) to undermine our Capitalist Democracy.

    I know you’re not stupid or ignorant of Soviet Communism. That only leaves one other option.

    Eric Dondero // May 16, 2010 at 9:33 am

    Paulie, you’re still not answering the question:

    Again, you are a Leftwinger. You defend the Soviet Union. You brutally bash Ronald Reagan. You were born in the Soviet Union.

    Give us a reason why any of us Real Libertarians should believe that you are anything but a Radical Socialist or even Communist yourself?

    ===============================

    http://www.ballot-access.org/2010/04/30/veteran-libertarian-petitioner-collects-510-illinois-signatures-in-one-day/

    Veteran Libertarian Petitioner Collects 510 Illinois Signatures in One Day
    April 30th, 2010

    Eric Dondero has been petitioning for twentyfive years, mostly for the Libertarian Party. He says that on April 30, he hit a new record number of signatures collected in one day, at Southern Illinois University, for the statewide Libertarian Party slate.

    Only people who have themselves petitioned will truly understand how tough it is to collect 510 signatures in one day.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++

    DEFINITELY ON THE TO HIRE LIST: Eric Dondero

    DEFINITELY ON THE ***DO NOT HIRE*** LIST:

    Communist criminal crackhead pederast
    “Paulie” Frankel.

    Stalker violent psycho Andy Jacobs.

    Car thief Jake Witmer.

    Woman beating voter registration forger Gary Fincher.

    And their frontman Mark Pickens.

    Also Jake’s crackhead friend Patrick Kelly.

    THEY SHOULD ALL BE BLACKBALLED.

    OK to hire: Darryl Bonner, Al Anders, John Slevin, Roger Pope, David Jackson, Ronn Cook, Edee and Russ Baggett, Free And Equal, Eric Dondero.

  42. Free And Equal

    Petition contracts should go to honest, successful, ethical, hard working activist contractors like Free And Equal (Sean Haugh and Christina Tobin) and Scott Kohlhaas. They are worth their weight in gold and any campaign lucky enough to be able to afford their services should jump at the chance.

    Psychotic criminal losers like Witmer, Frankel, Jacobs, Fincher and their front man Pickens should be avoided like the plague. Hire these wack jobs at your own peril.

  43. Jacobs=stalker, batterer, thief

    GARY: Andy has lost his grip on reality, if he ever had it to begin with.

    I would ask him why he would do such a thing to a friend (go into a physical attack over a lousy petition) after all I’ve done for him. Why does he want to hurt me and inflict damages to me, and make off with much of our Missouri money? Why does he want to mentally torment me?

    I would ask him, but I’m not contacting him, as he isn’t worth contacting. I never want anything more to do with him ever again.

    No one gets away with battering me. No one.

  44. Jake Witmer, Car Thief

    GARY: I just got advice not to stoop to the level of an Andy Jacobs and Jake Witmer, but with such idiotic stuff coming out of both of them, it’s too hard to “stay above the fray”.

    First of all, Andy HAS lost his grip on reality because denying that he touched me when he actually sent a barrage of punches my way, proves it. And Jake has lost touch with reality by believing that paying someone back means that they still owe them the money! What a delusional character! No wonder Arizona kicked him out (not me, though) and won’t have anything to do with him! I’d have blacklisted him too after badmouthing that lady over her repudiation of his insane pie-in-the-sky schemes. You are also lost your touch with reality by saying that I “insisted on being paid by wire” when that is patently NOT the case at all. Why are you so in love with falsehoods and hate the truth?

    And no, Jake, you moron – I mean after all I’ve done for Andy! How stupid can you be?

    And speaking of scum (which is you, Jake) YOU are the one who STOLE A RENTAL CAR (stealing is a crime!) in Alabama! I could have had a rental car, but Andy insisted on renting it and having ONLY himself put on as a driver! Therefore, Andy has NO ONE to blame but himself, if he had to “drive me around”! You stupid fucking idiot! Why did I ever trust anything you said before, when you are so TOTALLY off the mark ALL THE TIME.

    The fact remains, Jake, if you believe that BATTERY is ACCEPTABLE in any form, you are a THUG and NOT a libertarian. That’s why you support war!

    You also can’t recognize that throwing a mattress on top of someone and then proceeding to beat that person up is battery…you have very dim intelligence. And I mean that politely. I also previously said that I did NOT mention ANYTHING about welfare to Andy’s (who you call his “old lover”). I never used the word “welfare” and Andy knows it.

  45. Andy Jacobs: Stalker, Batterer, Thief

    GARY: David Euchner testified to me that you called him names like “Douchener” and other CRYBABY and CHILDISH things like that. You did that to the entire Arizona LP to the point where they simply WILL NOT HAVE YOU BACK

    Well, I just got advice not to stoop to the level of an Andy Jacobs and Jake Witmer, but with such idiotic stuff coming out of both of them, it’s too hard to “stay above the fray”.

    First of all, Andy HAS lost his grip on reality because denying that he touched me when he actually sent a barrage of punches my way, proves it. And Jake has lost touch with reality by believing that paying someone back means that they still owe them the money! What a delusional character! No wonder Arizona kicked him out (not me, though) and won’t have anything to do with him! I’d have blacklisted him too after badmouthing that lady over her repudiation of his insane pie-in-the-sky schemes. You are also lost your touch with reality by saying that I “insisted on being paid by wire” when that is patently NOT the case at all. Why are you so in love with falsehoods and hate the truth?

    And no, Jake, you moron – I mean after all I’ve done for Andy! How stupid can you be?

    And speaking of scum (which is you, Jake) YOU are the one who STOLE A RENTAL CAR (stealing is a crime!) in Alabama! I could have had a rental car, but Andy insisted on renting it and having ONLY himself put on as a driver! Therefore, Andy has NO ONE to blame but himself, if he had to “drive me around”! You stupid fucking idiot! Why did I ever trust anything you said before, when you are so TOTALLY off the mark ALL THE TIME.

    The fact remains, Jake, if you believe that BATTERY is ACCEPTABLE in any form, you are a THUG and NOT a libertarian. That’s why you support war!

    You also can’t recognize that throwing a mattress on top of someone and then proceeding to beat that person up is battery…you have very dim intelligence. And I mean that politely. I also previously said that I did NOT mention ANYTHING about welfare to Andy’s (who you call his “old lover”). I never used the word “welfare” and Andy knows it.

    For that matter, Jake, WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THINGS THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT, ARE TOTALLY IN THE DARK ABOUT, AND ARE NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS?

    Stupid insults about my health aside, you are just showing everyone on this thread that you DON’T REALLY HAVE INTELLIGENCE IN THAT BRAIN OF YOURS.

    You are quite possibly the dimmest thinker I’ve ever run across, Jake, and that’s saying a lot! No one should take ANYTHING you say seriously…ever. (Thank God, no one really does anyway!)

  46. Andy Jacobs: Stalker, Batterer, Thief

    GARY: Andy attacked me, not once, but three times, and that truth will never change, no matter how many singularities occur. Departing from this fact is departing from reality.

    Even Jane disagrees with you, Jake – thinks I never should have had anything to do with Andy to BEGIN WITH and thought he was VERY WEIRD.

    What does that say about you even if the person I fight with THE MOST takes my side and says you’re full of shit?

  47. Bystander

    Wow. These people are crazy.

    These are the people that are representing the Libertarian Party to the general public?

  48. Petitioner Andy Jacobs is violating legal restraining order

    GARY: On May 28, both Andy AND I will give our respective testamonies under oath, in front of a Judge.

    Which one us will the Judge believe?

    Care to take any polygraphs, Andy? Hmmm. You up to the challenge?

  49. Petitioner Andy Jacobs is violating legal restraining order

    GARY: Why is Andy illegally sending communications to me?

    What does that tell you about his character?

  50. Petitioner Andy Jacobs is violating legal restraining order

    Anyone taking bets on who will show up in court on the 28th of May…and who won’t?

  51. Gary will take a polygraph, will Andy?

    GARY: Jake Witmer is deliberately mixing in some falsehoods with some known truths, in order to make his whole silly contentions appear as if they are true.

    Truth be told, when Witmer relayed the story of his Arizona LP experiences, the story did not add up exactly to me, and, out of politelness, I did not argue with him (because I did not know him well or if he had an affinity more for truth than faction). This is called “giving someone the benefit of the doubt”, Jake. Let me make it clear that I DID NOT AUTOMATICALLY BELIEVE JAKE OVER DAVID EUCHNER. With the possible exception of Joe Cobb, those in the Arizona LP are people who appear to be honest, sincere and try to do the best they can under the circumstances they are given. This includes David Euchner and George Squyres (btw, I have personal knowledge that every time either Andy or Jake has a problem with someone in the LP, they are always called a “Republican plant” – what ridiculous bullshit this is and they should really get a life!). George Squyres is not a Republican plant – this is just Jake Witmer’s vivid imagination going haywire, just as it is with Andy’s current wild stories to duck responsibility for what he did to me.

    While I don’t know Squyres personally, I do know David Euchner personally, and let me just say that Euchner has far more credibility with me than Jake Witmer does. Jake was labeled a troublemaker in Arizona for good reason – and Euchner confirmed this to me. In fact, he made such a troublemaking stink of a time for everyone in Arizona that they had no choice to boot him out (and this wasn’t even about the qualilty of his work, mind you!) and ask him never to return again! It’s pretty bad when you cause so much personal trouble for people that it eclipses your own good work and people want you the hell out! Don’t take my word for it, folks – feel free to contact David Euchner or George Squyres. I would guard against notifying Joe Cobb, because I feel he has some issues of his own and may be facing senility. Nevertheless, I didn’t have any personal problems with Joe Cobb.

    By contrast, I have never had any coordinator tell me not to come back to a state because of any troublemaking behavior.

    Jake’s ridiculous re-wording of my subject line should tell people what kind of troubled person Jake is:

    Re: David Euchner showed me what Jake is all about, and even though he ripped me off, I now quote him as an authority because it serves my cause du jour – slandering my financial savior in order to welsh out of my debt to him

    David Euchner did NOT rip me off – in fact he treated me fairly and took up for me when my work fell into question by some amateurs (note: no expert petition coordinator has ever suggested that my work is/was/has been bad).

    And that whole line about the AZ LP thanked Jake “anonymously” is so much bullshit anyone can see through this idiotic claim. Why the hell would they run Jake out of the state for being a troublemaker, and then thank him for his work, by leaving his name off their thanks. Good god, talk about being divorced from reality!

    Also, I am not, nor have I ever “slandered” anyone. If Jake calls accurately reporting a crime that was committed upon me “slander”, then he doesn’t know the meaning of the word “slander”. Do you think Jake is willing to testify under oath regarding his misdeeds in Arizona? I didn’t think so either. But I am. And not only that, but I’m willing to take a polygraph to corroborate what I am “alleging” (reporting). I am also willing to fund my trip to Riverside County to testify before a judge at the hearing on May 28 (although if Andy were a a real man, he’d pay my court costs). But I don’t believe the judge will believe Andy when he gives his testimony – that is, if he shows up and doesn’t coward out.

    It only took me 4 days to get SICK of Andy’s physical bullying, and I’m DONE with the troublemaker (I don’t hit anyone, and I don’t lie about significant events – whatever else people think I do that they don’t like, so be it. But I don’t do those two things. Nor will I tolerate them in others.)

    Jake STILL has not told me why, if Andy isn’t lying, he time and time again BERATED me for REFUSING to lie (to people he wanted me to lie to).

    Jake is just so full of shit that it is no longer funny.

  52. Will petitioner/stalker/batterer Andy Jacobs skip court May 28?

    And will he take a polygraph test like Gary offered to?

    I wonder?

  53. Will petitioner/stalker/batterer Andy Jacobs take a polygraph?

    Everyone, we can end the suspense you all seem to be experiencing right now.

    That is, if Andy will just agree to a polygraph in which he denies initiating assault and battery on me on three occasions.

    I, as the “accuser” will also be willing to take a polygraph, and testify that he initiated three separate assault and battery episodes against me.

    (I give my permission for someone to extend this offer to Andy)

    Gary

  54. Andy

    I’m really disappointed and disgusted by the actions of Gary Fincher.

    I loaned this guy several thousand dollars and hooked him up with numerous jobs and now he is spreading a bunch of false stories about me and trying to use them as a smokescreen for not paying me back the money that he owes me.

    I just dug out the motel reciepts from Arizona from 2009 where he stayed with me. I fronted the money for his motel with the promise from him that he would pay me back. This was from mid January until sometime in April. He barely made any money when he was there and his car got hit by somebody that did not have car insurance (which I had nothing to do with and I was not even riding with him when this happened). Therefore his entire motel bill was added to his debt to me since he never paid me a penny for the rooms while we were there (and note that if he had not been there I would have gotten the single rooms which were cheaper instead of the double rooms which is what I moved to when he got there in mid January). This is a huge motel bill that he owes me. We are talking over $1,800 (I still have the reciepts).

    He was supposed to be with me in Arizona to pay me back the money that he owed me from 2008, which included:

    $2,500 for a car repair in Ohio.

    $1,314 for a car repair in Pennsylvania.

    $692 for towing in North Dakota (I put this in his account while he was on an ill advised trip to Costa Rica).

    $8 for postage of his MP3 player which he left in his car in Pennsylvania.

    $20 for gas.

    $30 for gas (This is when I drove him from where I was working in Pennsylvania at that time to where his car was in a repair shop, and then for my having to drive back to where I was working. And note that to do this I missed work time myself, so I lost even more money in opportunity costs.).

    $13.08 for accepting his phone calls from Costa Rica (He ran out of money when he was there after his wallet was stolen. He called me desperate for cash.).

    $173 for a wire transfer (I wired him money when he arrived back in the US from Costa Rica).

    .10 cents for photo copy.

    $21.67 (This was what he owed me from a motel reimbursement from Ohio. He had written me a check for this but his account got low so that he asked me to not cash it and the check got thrown out. He was supposed to repay may but he has yet to do that.)

    So as everyone can see, he already owed me a considerable amount of money prior to 2009. This is why I wanted him working and is why he was in Arizona with me, however, as I said above, several things went wrong there and he ended up not making much money. However, he did rack up more debt to me. Such as:

    $146.56 for his cell phone bill on 2/2/09.

    $37 for his storage unit fee in Indiana on 2/2/09.

    $25 cash on 2/1/09.

    $32 for medication,

    $5 cash.

    $24.12 cash.

    $200 cash.

    $8 for gas for a guy who drove up from Tucson to Gilbert to look at his car.

    $23 for diner for Gary as well as for the guy from Tucson who looked at Gary’s car (Gary was supposed to pay for his diner since the guy looked at his car but since he was short on money both of these diners ended up on Gary’s tab to me.).

    $100 for a new cell phone (Note that Gary SHATTERED his previous cell phone by throwing it against a wall while he was throwing a tantrum over a situation with a woman whom he met on a dating site not working out.)

    $65 for a bank fee for Gary.

    $100 cash.

    $50 cash.

    $11 at Wal-Mart.

    $11 for meal at Panchos.

    $11 for meal at Panchos.

    $5 for gas.

    $100 for gas.

    $8 for meal at Jack in the Box.

    $8.75 for meal at a Mexican restaurant.

    $70 cash on 4/1/09.

    $20 cash on 4/4/09.

    $5 cash on 4/4/09.

    $100 cash.

    $2 for parking in downtown Tucson.

    $3.50 for parking at the University of Arizona.

    Then of course there is the MONSTER motel bill from Arizona for which he has STILL not reimbursed me for as he promised. There was a place where we stayed by the week in Gilbert and another one in Tucson, plus there was one night at another motel. He owes me half on all of these motels.

    So, the entire pretext of Gary joining me in Arizona was so he could repay me the money that he owed me from 2008, but he earned so little money in Arizona that he just fell deeper into debt with me.

    There there was the time where he met up with in Texas for a couple of day in May of 2009. While this time in Texas was brief, he did rack up more debt to me. This was for:

    $45 I loaned him due to him having a tire blow out in Texas before he got to where I was.

    The motel room where we stayed.

    Meals at a Mexican restaurant and Dairy Queen, plus another fast food joint in El Paso.

    After this I stopped loaning money to Gary for a while, but Gary did start borrowing money from this woman that he started dating (they met for the first time in the motel room in Tucson which I paid for and which he has yet to give me any reimbursement for his half).

    Gary did make a $500 payment to me in September of 2009.

    Gary did not make any other payments to me until earlier this year (2010) in New Mexico where he paid me $1,000.

    The woman that Gary hooked up with in Arizona ended up getting transfered to Tennessee so Gary moved there with her. It is very rare for their to be any petition work in Tennessee as well as the states that surround it (and this is eastern TN). Gary won’t get another job (outside of delivering motor homes which he has not done in almost 2 years and he doesn’t even know if he has that job anymore) so he just sits around not working (as in not earning any money) when he’s at her house.

    This woman did take a trip to Kansas to see her family for Thanksgiving. Gary went with her. I found out that the part of Kansas that they were going to was close to Missouri, and I had found out that there was a petition drive going on there that was paying. So I obtained the contact information for that campaign and I told Gary about it. He did work for a few days when he was there, but it only amounted to like 5 days of work, and that petition was not paying very much so his earnings were low. He had a difficult time when he was there finding locations from which to gather signatures and I talked to him about this on the phone. I made a suggestion to him for a type of place to work – one that he would not normally consider working – that I had heard from petitioner that I know who has worked Missouri before. Gary tried a locations like this and ended up doing well there. Note that when Gary and I went to Missouri in 2010 this location served him very well, and note that I drove him there every day and that I was unable to find a location that was as good as that one is myself (he is still owed money from this 2nd stint in Missouri, but that is another issue).

    Gary did not work for the rest of November and all of December. He did start working again around mid to late January, but that’s only because I decided to bring him in on a job that Paul and I were going to do in New Mexico. We didn’t really need him there, but I decided to bring him in because I had heard that there was going to be a string of paid petition work in several of the western states and that it was going to last for several months. In addition to this, he also had a law suit going against the people who hit his car in Arizona, so I figured that if he was in that region of the country that he’d be closer to his court appearances. So even though Paul and I could have knocked out the job in New Mexico without him, I brought Gary in on it. Gary did pay me back $1,000 in New Mexico, however, he did not go straight to the next job as I had wanted him to do so that he could pay me back more. In fact, what he did kind of defeated my purpose in bringing him in to New Mexico in the first place.

    I wanted him in New Mexico because I had heard about petition work in California (which had been going on since at least August of 2009 and is still going now), Arizona, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, Montana, and Colorado. I figured that with paid petition work going on in all of these states for several months that there would be plenty of opportunity for Gary to earn enough money to pay me back. I talked about this with Gary while we were in New Mexico and I wanted him to caravan with me to California. However, instead of doing this, after he finished petitioning in New Mexico he took off back to Tennessee and he did not bother to tell me that he did this until he was already in Tennessee. Gary stayed at a different motel from where Paul and I were and Gary mysteriously went out of communication with me. I figured that he was just sleeping or dicking around with his computer and that he and I were about to set off for California like we had discussed. However, Gary took off to Tennessee and did not even bother to tell me about it until he was already in Tennessee! He said that he wanted to see this woman. Prior to this I had suggested that he get to the next job (which was probably going to be California) and then after he got settled in and worked there for a week or two that he go on the internet and book a flight to Tennessee, and that he stay there and visit for a few days and then fly back to work in California. I suggested that since he could be working in the Western states for a few months that he could book one or two more flights to visit this woman in Tennessee and perhaps even book a flight for her to visit him, this wasy he would not miss much work and could earn more money, which would have meant that he could pay me back money that he owes me quicker. But oh no, this made too much sense so Gary had to do the opposite and drive to Tennessee and then sit there NOT WORKING for several weeks.

    He did finally make the trek out to California. He did this to coincide with his court date in Arizona (although given that the part of California where he came to is not that far from Arizona he could have come to California sooner and still been able to make his court appearance in Arizona). However, when he finally arrived in California he was diagnosed with a bone infection in his foot and so he did not end up working. He stayed in my motel room for 2 or 3 days and then decided to go back to Tennessee for medical treatment. He was short on money (again) so I loaned him $100 to go towards gas to get back to Tennessee for treatment (and note that he also owes me for those days of motel).

    He arrived back in Tennessee and found out that the diagnosis of the infection was false and that he could get back to work, so he drove back to California again, however, all of this wasted more time and money.

    He met up with me in California again and once again roomed with me (note that this ran up more motel expenses as well as for gas for days that he rode around with me). He only worked for a few days until we found out about that campaign in Missouri, so we then flew to Missouri. The campaign paid for our flights and for the motel, but Gary has still not been paid on his signatures and I have not been paid my rental car reimbursement.

    I think that Gary not getting paid this money that he is owed from this campaign in Missouri is what has pushed him over the edge (as in this is what sparked him to start acting crazy). Him not getting paid this money is NOT my fault, and of course this money could still come. Before Gary flipped out he said that he was going to make a large debt payment to me out of this money.

    Now Gary has freaked out over some petty bullshit and has run off and is claiming that he doesn’t owe me. This is flat out NOT TRUE. These tales that he’s spinning about me are either flat out FABRICATIONS or he is twisting facts around and leaving details out.

    This talk of a “restraining order” is utter nonsense and is just his way of trying to duck out of paying me back the money that he owes me.

    NOBODY who is close to the situation agreees with him.

    Gary incurred ZERO damages due to me, but if he does not repay me all of the money that he owes me (and note that he also promised to pay me interest as well) then I will suffer MAJOR financial damage. If he does not pay me back then it is an act of THEFT.

    He knows damn well that he owes me the money so he should do the RIGHT THING by keeping his word and paying me back.

  55. Andy

    Oh yeah, I also fronted him another $200 after we got back to Califonria from Missouri. I did this because of his Missouri pay being delayed. This was shortly before he spazzed out.

  56. Andy

    I’ve got a lot of these expenses written down on a piece of paper that he signed acknowledging that he owes me this money, plus I’ve also got emails where he acknowledges it, including one where that he sent me for him to loan him money to get his car fixed in Ohio.

    This is all TRUE and I will take a lie detector test and there are others who are close to the situation such as Paul who can verify a lot of this stuff.

  57. Bystander

    Wow. Some people have a lot of time on their hands. When do they actually petition?

  58. Andy

    “Bystander // May 19, 2010 at 6:16 pm

    Wow. Some people have a lot of time on their hands. When do they actually petition?”

    Yes, Gary is wasting my time and his with this nonsense.

  59. Will petitioner/stalker/batterer Andy Jacobs skip court May 28?

    GARY:

    Andy,

    It’s worth it to you for me to get the money promised for Missouri.

    Because, do the math:

    You were given $5580, while I was given $100. The totals equal $5680.

    Of that, you are owed for your expenses $287. When subtracted from the remaining total, it equals $5393.

    Each of us are to receive $1000 (per the deal) for going into Missouri. That gives me $1000 of that total, and you $1000 of that total. What’s left to distribute between us equals $3393.

    You collected 458 signatures to my 597. That means that I am entitled to 56.58767% of the total that doesn’t include expenses or the $1000 bonus.

    For me, according to this formula, I am owed $1,920.02.

    Subtract the $100 that has already been wired to me, and that total (for MO signatures) becomes $1,820.02.

    Add back the $1000 bonus for coming to Missouri, and the total you owe me out of what they gave you is $2,820.02.

    IF they do end up stiffing me and not paying me any further, I will simply deduct $2,820.02 from the amount that I currently owe you.

    However, if they pay me an amount that does not reflect the total amount I am owed, then this amount will get whittled down at a rate of 56.58767% of the total, so the amount I will credit my current debt level will diminish accordingly.

    But IF they pay me in full as promised by them, there will be no credit at all going against my current debt and it won’t be an issue.

    Note: Since I could not help the fact that I was not with you when you showed up in Jeff City, and since $5293 (plus your expenses) was all that was given to the remaining parties that were able to make it to Jeff City, I view those funds as OURS and not YOURS solely, regardless of whose name appeared on the check. (To me, that’s just a trivial and irrelevant technicality.) In all fairness, I ALSO view the $100 that was wired to me on the first day as OUR funds, and not MINE solely. Thus, it figures into the equation above. This is the ONLY fair way to do it, IMO.

  60. Will petitioner/stalker/batterer Andy Jacobs skip court May 28?

    GF: Why is it so hard to get across to some people that somebody has just laid a hand on them (slapped and punched them around) in an unwelcome and hostile manner, against their will, on three occasions?

    JS: I have been asked by Mr. Fincher not to include any responses with Andy (I don’t think i ever caught his last name, so I hope it is ok to keep responding to him as Andy) in the CC. This will make it a bit more difficult, but I can work around it.

    GF: But you just did it again anyway!

    JS: First, my questions.

    1) Andy, did you violently attack Mr. Fincher with your fists?

    GF: I’ll answer for him: YES

    2) Andy, did you, in fact kick the mattress on the edge, or grab and flip?

    GF: Again, I’ll answer for him: Andy grapped and flipped the mattress.

    3) Mr. Fincher, did you swing at Andy at any time or charge him?

    GF: No, I did not swing at him or charge him, as he is absurdly alleging.

    JS: I don’t think either of you should answer the questions, but I thought i would ask.

    GF: Too late.

    JS: From what I have read, I would surmise that Mr. Fincher is exaggerating the incident

    GF: No, not at all. YOU were the one who came in with the pic of the VERY battered guy. I NEVER compared myself to him, or to anyone. I NEVER claimed to have cuts, scrapes, abrasions, gashes, broken bones or even multiple bruises. Therefore, I am NOT exaggerating. What happened was what I said happened. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

    JS: and Andy is minimizing the incident.

    GF: Not just “minimizing” but outright lying. I wish that, if he were going to deny battering me, he’d done a simple denial (which would still have been a lie). But to also drag ME into the assault and battery is very, very rotten and dispicable. It proves his low character to me and why I could NEVER even CONTEMPLATE being friends with him again.

    JS: Mr. Fincher says that he would have probably looked like the picture I sent, if he had not blocked the onslaught of blows by fists (the image Gary is painting for me).

    GF: This is only speculation, on whoever’s part, what I would have “looked” like. I can be very certain, had I not blocked my face, that it would have received at least SOME apparent injuries.

    JS: Yet we do not see the pictures of horrific bruising to his arms. I have been told that he suffers from physical ailments which include diabetes. With diabetes, he would bruise easily.

    GF: This is not true at all. I do not bruise easily. In fact, it takes quite a bit for me to show a bruise, at least on my arms.

    JS: This does not indicate that Andy truely intended any real harm to Gary. I have seen defensive wounds from a beating, and it is very appearant.

    GF: I’m not sure how you define the term “real” (as in “real” harm) but if you, as a peaceful person who has also signed a pledge against initiation of force of ANY kind, see your supposed friend who supposedly wishes you no harm at all, come charging at you and hitting you with his fists, you can only assume that he intends you at least SOME harm (and I would call it “real” – you may be confusing real with a certain level of degree, Mr. Smith). It was definitely traumatic to me, so it most certainly was real, to me.

    JS: On the other hand, Andy is giving the impression that there was a few minutes of anger in which he tore up a couple of sheets

    GF: Actually, under Andy’s story, the sheets tore themselves up: remember, he never admitted doing this, that I can recall.

    JS: and after Gary rushed him,

    GF: I did not “rush” him.

    JS: he tried to throw him out, which included pushing him back on the bed, grabbing his arms and then calling it quits.

    GF: But Andy’s story is just that: a story.

    JS: It is apparant that Gary was frightened by the event. It is also apparant that Gary has never been around, nor has the emotional facilities to deal with violence in any manner.

    GF: This is mostly true, as I abhor physical contact and believe things should be talked out. However, I have “been around” violence, in that it has visited me in the past. I have actually been taken down and tortured (twice) in the past, by people I wouldn’t have thought would do that to me, that I had placed trust in, and that betrayed my trust. On these instances, I DID receive fairly bad injuries including bleeding and bruises, and Andy’s attacked, once it commenced, reminded me of what had happened and caused flashbacks. That was what I meant earlier by “traumatic”. You can’t judge me unless you’ve been tortured the way I have.

    JS: I can assume he has led a life with limited contact to violence.

    GF: As an adult, limited, yes. I try to avoid it. However, there were those two occasioins in the early 90s I just spoke of, plus I was atttacked 3 times in a 3-week period while in Costa Rica (no injuries, in case you ask). I also had a woman I had been petitioning with in Arizona suddenly start beating me because I told her I was too sick to drive her to New Mexico. She also started false yelling “rape!”.

    JS: This, however does not diminish the importance of the event to Gary. I would believe, from other references, that Andy does have a temper.

    GF: A temper that I recently discovered is getting progressively WORSE.

    JS: I can say, that if both of you rushed each other and gave the impression of imminent physical contact and if both of you touched the other without their consent in a manner in which they felt threatened, you are both guilty of assault and battery.

    GF: Well, “both” of us didn’t rush each other. Recall me saying that *I* did not participate in this matter, nor did I want to nor will I ever want to. Andy definitely touched me without my consent (he also did this days later by, after buying my signatures from me at the Wendy’s, tried to prevent me from entering my car, and puttting his arm around me, as if to say we were “still buddies”, but was unwelcome and I told him so).

    JS: I think the polygraph is an excellent idea, but also costly both monitarily and emotionally.

    GF: Well, you keep misspelling words. It’s “monetarily”, not “monitarily”. And how is it costly emotionally?? I would GLADLY take the polygraph if it means Andy can be exposed for his lies and that I can be believed when I report a simple truth.

    JS: For the both of you, the cost could range from 600 to 1500 dollars. I would not suggest you ask about assault or battery since it is obvious that it happened,

    GF: It is obvious that it happened but…

    JS: probably from both parties.

    GF: not from “both” parties. What part of “I did not participate in this” and that “this was not a fight but an attack” aren’t you getting, Mr. Smith? How is refusing to participate participating? I don’t understand your reasoning.

    JS: I would further suggest that the monies be provided by both parties and be paid for by the liar (just my thought), though with Gary’s socialistic economics,

    GF: That is a patent falsehood. There is nothing “socialistic” about my economics. In fact, I’ve got the most free market economics of anyone I’ve known or have ever known. You are just being stupid here. People have a right to enclose pay in an envelope and say “here, this is y’all’s money to split between you”. You are very confused about what socialism is, I assure you.

    JS: he would just deduct it from what he owes the other party, even if he was shown to be falsifying.

    GF: I do not “falsity”. If it can be shown to me that a thing works out in a way differently than I calculate, I would change to the superior argument. However, you haven’t done that. You have only showed me a way that you believe it to be. You haven’t demonstrated a higher mathematical formula than I have. (Also, our finances have nothing to do with the assault and battery – makes me wonder about your abilities since you think it does. It’s also not any of your business.)

    JS: I would also point out that polygraphs have absolutely zero scientific credibility, but they can sometimes be helpful at bringing out the truth.

    GF: Well, if they’re helpful AT ALL, I’m game.

    JS: The big question is, what is it Gary is expecting.

    GF: What I have spelled out: to be kept completely away from by this betraying “friend” and have no further violence visited upon me by him or his equally deranged friend Jake. For these people to just leave me alone and let me live in peace and harmony.

    JS: If he is expecting Andy to say he assaulted him and that there was battery, then all of this is unneccessary, since that is evident.

    GF: I would like for him to, in order to have it shown that I am a truth-teller (to the max, actually) but even though it IS evident, Andy hasn’t owned up to it. Not owning up to it is the REASON I stopped being friends with him, remember?

    JS: If he is wanting Andy to say he beat him and battered him, then I think a polygraph would show that Gary believes it is true and Andy believe it is not.

    GF: Not so fast. You’re kind of a novice at this, aren’t you? Just because someone is willing to lie IN EMAILS and seemingly get by with it DOESN’T mean they are willing to lie ORALLY or IN PERSON and think they can get by with it. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Andy would fail the polygraph, when he denies that he didn’t start slapping and punching me, and when he says that I did that to him instead. I can ASSURE YOU 100% that Andy has an EXCELLENT memory and “BELIEVES”, “REMEMBERS” though doesn’t ADMIT all of his battery on me.

    The only real question is this:

    JS: Did Andy intend true harm to gary. Myself, i doubt it.
    Did Andy beat gary with his fists. I doubt this as well, from the evidence.

    GF: What?! You are doubting something that is TRUE and HAPPENED, then. This tells me that you a very lousy investigator, since I was RIGHT THERE and EXPERIENCED Andy’s beating me with his fists. It’s silly to “doubt” it. You are a silly person.

    JS: Did Andy create a continuing threatening environment for Gary. Again i doubt it since Gary stayed.

    GF: Is getting a restraining order “staying”? I have already SAID that Andy created a continuing threatening environment, and you can “doubt” that the sun sets in the west all you want, but he MOST CERTAINLY DID.

    I DID NOT STAY ONCE I REALIZED WHAT’S GOING ON. YOU ARE GETTING WHAT I HAVE SAID CONF– USED.

    JS: As for the mattress incident, I must disagree with Mr. Fincher. I have stayed in many hotels and am quite confident it would be easy to recreate this event.

    GF: Okay, this is getting way to silly to even engage in anymore. Mr. Smtih apparently is looking only for drama and trouble and knows damn well that mattresses don’t turn into Mexican Jumping Mattresses and fly all the way across to a different part of a room based on being kicked.

    I’m out of here.

  61. Will petitioner/stalker/batterer Andy Jacobs skip court May 28?

    GARY: ANDY IS DEMONSTRATING HIS DISHONESTY BY HIS CONTINUAL UNLAWFUL CONTACTS TO ME AFTER IT WAS AGREED AND DETERMINED THAT I WOULD BE LEFT ALONE BY HIM. WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU?

  62. Will petitioner/stalker/batterer Andy Jacobs skip court May 28?

    GARY: Tomorrow, the Riverside County Sheriff’s Dept is going to want to know where Andy Jacobs is physically located, in order to serve him, re the hearing. This is because word seems to be coming back that Andy may be outside of California, thereby giving the Sheriff’s Dept trouble in locating him. I don’t know his license numbers (drivers or car).

    Does someone know where Andy is? Can I please get from you his whereabouts so that they can locate him (not to arrest him, but to serve him for the hearing so he has a chance to give his testimony).

    Thanks.

    Gary

  63. Will petitioner/stalker/batterer Andy Jacobs skip court May 28?

    Gary: btw I am about to travel to San Diego and will rent Room 102 where the mattress AND table incidents occurred. I will take my video camera and finally put his outlandish mattress theory to rest (no pun intended). I will lie on the bed and have someone Andy’s size try to kick the mattress to see if it moves (it probably won’t even slide at all, let alone flip to the other side of the room). Anyway, this should take place in the next week or 10 days…be on the lookout.

  64. Will petitioner/stalker/batterer Andy Jacobs skip court May 28?

    GARY: Someone is being dishonest with me and betraying me here. I asked that Andy be kept out of the loop on these emails, because it only stirs things up and encourages him on (to harassing me). I don’t know who it is, but please STOP. I notice that he is responding to an email with a subject line that I know full that I kept from him.

    Now, all I had asked for is to help me with his whereabouts, in order to assist the Riverside Co. Sheriff’s Dept with the restraining order hearing and service.

    Why?

    Will Andy be deceptive again and hide his whereabouts? Will Andy lie as to where he is?

    I believe Andy is that dishonest – yes. He WILL attempt to hide/deceive people as to his whereabouts, as to have “plausible deniability” (as he always puts his lies) that no hearing is occurring. What a coward and a sleaze!

  65. Will petitioner/stalker/batterer Andy Jacobs skip court May 28?

    GARY: There really is not that much more to be talked about regarding this incident(s)/issue.

    Here is the size of it:

    A Because of Andy’s multiple physical attacks on me, and subsequent failure to own up to it, I choose to have nothing more to do with him.

    B It’s been recommended that I get a restraining order against him, in the event that he tries it again, I’m covered with consequences to him.

    C I will report back the results of the hearing, as I’m confident his false testimony won’t carry as much weight as my true testimony

    D For those of you sincerely interested in corroboration that I’m telling the truth (as if knowing my character isn’t enough) you can view the video I’ll create from the San Diego motel room proving Andy’s mattress story impossible (for those of you who do not care to know the truth, you don’t have to view it).

    E I plan to pay Andy back (via checks sent to his parents) the remainder of the money I owe him, albeit because of his smears of my creditworthiness, it won’t receive a really high priority over other obligations I have. (Mark owes him money too, so I’ll likely synch my timetable of repayment with Mark’s.)

    Gary L. Fincher

  66. Will petitioner/stalker/batterer Andy Jacobs skip court May 28?

    GARY: The amount in question is not nearly as large as all the rumors. Sure, after he loaned me amounts equalling $692, $2500 and $1700, I started off owing him $4900. But after working in Arizona, New Mexico and California, that amount has been whittled WAY down to what I believe is around $2,000 or under $2,000. (It’s been hard to keep track of EXACTLY as there has been some minor amounts going back and forth – loaning/paying back, loaning/paying back – and those small-amount cycles has made it to where I’d have to sit down for HOURS and figure out EXACTLY what amount is actually owed. I suspect that it’s down below $2,000 now, although I can’t be sure, like I said.

    It should also be noted that MANY PEOPLE who committed assault and battery like Andy did, WOULD BE PAYING FINES OF UP TO $4400 in California. Therefore, Andy should count himself VERY LUCKY to have dodged all those fines – keep in mind he is dodging them only because he has chosen to be dishonest.

  67. Will petitioner/stalker/batterer Andy Jacobs skip court May 28?

    With less than a week left until the court date, I’m sure everyone here is on the edge of their seats waiting to find out

    Will petitioner/stalker/batterer Andy Jacobs skip court May 28?

  68. Andy

    Nobody is stalking anybody and there is no court case because there no crimes were committed and there is no evidence of any crimes having been committed. I have been busy working in California.

    Gary KNOWS damn well that he owes me all of the money that I listed and them some. He is acting like a weasel because he is looking for an excuse to NOT pay me. I hooked him up with numerous jobs and drove him around and helped him when he was nursing foot infections and this is the thanks that I get for it.

    Anyone who would borrow a bunch of money from somebody and then make up a bunch of bullshit excuses to not pay them has got low character.

    Nobody who is close to the situation believes Gary’s side of the story. This should tell everyone something.

  69. Andy

    Also, why would anyone post this off topic nonsense here? Nobody gives a rat’s ass about Gary’s tantrum and this has got absolutely NOTHING to do with minor party or independent candidates. This is just a middle aged man throwing a tantrum and looking for an excuse to not pay back a debt to somebody who went to great lengths to help him out. This is quite sad. Pathetic really.

  70. Petitioner Andy Jacobs is violating legal restraining order

    GARY: All that talk about Andy telling me to leave his hotel room, we are overlooking the fact that it is ANDY that would have gotten kicked out of the hotel, had management seen what he did to me!

  71. Will petitioner/stalker/batterer Andy Jacobs skip court May 28?

    Dang. Cant everyone see just how retarded this Andy guy is? Wow.

  72. Will petitioner/stalker/batterer Andy Jacobs skip court May 28?

    Andy 70 “there is no court case”

    I guess that means Andy will be skipping court.

  73. Will petitioner/stalker/batterer Andy Jacobs skip court May 28?

    Add “contempt of court scofflaw” to “stalker/batterer” when describing petitioner Andrew Jacobs. Stalker. Batterer. Admits he plans to skip court May 28. Jacobs will probably be next seen in Washington State working on initiatives, most likely in the Seattle-Tacoma area.

  74. Will petitioner/stalker/batterer Andy Jacobs skip court May 28?

    Attention Law Enforcement officers:

    If Andy “contempt of court” Jacobs is still as he says still in California, that probably means that he and his silver colored Suzuki Aero with Pennsylvania license plates can be found in and around San Jacinto and Hemet CA.

    He may also be working for

    Jane Tomczak 5973 STALLION OAKS RD EL CAJON, CA 92019 (619) 445-0598 victory.consultants@yahoo.com

    Company Name: VICTORY CONSULTANTS. Address: 4715 30TH ST 3. SAN DIEGO, CA 92116-1563. Company Contact: RONALD G TOMCZAK. Phone: (619) 285-396 …

    That address/phone has probably moved.

  75. Bystander

    Hobos will clipboards (more like hobos with laptops) should STFU and get a life. No wonder they are so broke, it looks like they do not go out to petition much but instead sit around endlessly repeating themselves on internet forums about their petty personal issues.

  76. LibertarianGirl

    will petitioner I doubt that any law enforcement surf this site jackass , dont you have anything better to do than try and snitch someone off ?

  77. LibertarianGirl

    GARY_Gary: btw I am about to travel to San Diego and will rent Room 102 where the mattress AND table incidents occurred. I will take my video camera and finally put his outlandish mattress theory to rest (no pun intended). I will lie on the bed and have someone Andy’s size try to kick the mattress to see if it moves (it probably won’t even slide at all, let alone flip to the other side of the room). Anyway, this should take place in the next week or 10 days…be on the lookout.

    me__ ROFLMAO —- so – fucking -pathetic,,, there arent words and noone gives a shit the only thing more pathetic is me commenting on this thread.

  78. The Truth

    From: Lisa
    Subject: Gary
    To: “Gary”
    Date: Sunday, May 23, 2010, 9:24 AM

    Good morning,

    I know you don’t know me from Adam, (atleast most of you). I’m not sure what, if anything, would make you think my credibility any more significant than Gary’s, but I told him I would try…

    I am Gary’s little sister, who was raised side-by-side with him for roughly 16 years. Tho’ Gary and I are not as close as we once were, and have differing views on many things, I do feel that I know his heart and the core of his being. I may not always understand or agree with him, but that is a different issue. The point here is this: when Gary called me and told me about the incident with his long-time friend, he first asked me if I knew him to ‘be honest’. My first reply was that I know him to be ‘brutally honest’ for the most part. So, yes, of all the things I know of Gary, I would have to say he is always truthful. Then he told me about the incident(s) with his friend, and I have to say I do believe him. I can’t imagine him making up such a thing. Most of all, I know that friendships really mean alot to Gary and that he would never end one without good cause. Certainly not for a ‘false’ cause.
    And, as his little sister, I can also attest that violence is just not Gary. He is ABSOLUTELY NOT a fighter. Tho’ I am 2 years younger, I have fought many of his battles for him as kids. I am so not a fighter either, however, Gary is even less than me. Violence is just not something either of us are made of. So, as for Gary attacking someone physically, I would be betting THAT didn’t happen! And, as I said, I see no reason for him to end a friendship, nor any reason to lie about such an incident. I would certainly come near believing that any act of violence against Gary would ‘scare’ him and cause him to try his best to avoid such a thing in the future.
    I think it is really sad that this has happened, because, as I said, Gary certainly would not casually end a friendship – especially with one who was a friend and companion for so long.

    I just pray that this situation will be resolved quickly, and that ammends will be made where trust can be once again established by all parties involved. I hate to see such division and turmoil going on in anybody’s world. I pray that forgiveness and restoration will replace any fear, bitterness, or animosity between all parties.
    Lisa

  79. The Truth

    GARY: Yes, we all already know how Jake hates the truth. But really, I asked him to STOP his out-in-left-field emails to me.

    JAKE WITMER: This reminds me of “the princess and the pea”.

    Except, substitute a grossly obese, slothful, and wimpy man for the princess, and substitute some cornstarch and bad luck for the pea.

    Jake Witmer
    C: (907) 250-5503

    GARY:
    I just wanted to say one more thing about the mattress issue before I make my video. In my current motel room, the mattress is now overlapping on my side by about A FOOT and I have not fallen off and the mattress remains fully flat on the bed – and its not even a king size! In fact, in all my nights of sleeping on beds with mattresses I have never had a mattress flip over on top of me and start beating me.

    On Thu May 20th, 2010 4:50 PM EDT john smith wrote:

    >JS: I have been asked by Mr. Fincher not to include any responses with Andy
    >(I don’t think i ever caught his last name, so I hope it is ok to keep
    >responding to him as Andy) in the CC. This will make it a bit more
    >difficult, but I can work around it.
    >GF: But you just did it again anyway!
    >-js.a Actually i was talking about your responses. But, it appears you
    >will be upset either way, so this will be easier.
    >
    >JS: First, my questions.
    >-js.a Very interesting. Answering for the other party.
    >
    >JS: From what I have read, I would surmise that Mr. Fincher is exaggerating
    >the incident
    >GF: No, not at all. YOU were the one who came in with the pic of the VERY
    >battered guy. I NEVER compared myself to him, or to anyone. I NEVER
    >claimed to have cuts, scrapes, abrasions, gashes, broken bones or even
    >multiple bruises. Therefore, I am NOT exaggerating. What happened was what
    >I said happened. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
    >-js.a If you have no bruises or injuries, you were not violently attacked,
    >nor beaten. That is what i was saying. This equates to let than a slap
    >fight between girls from what I see.
    >
    >JS: This does not indicate that Andy truely intended any real harm to
    >Gary. I have seen defensive wounds from a beating, and it is very
    >appearant.
    >GF: I’m not sure how you define the term “real” (as in “real” harm) but if
    >you, as a peaceful person who has also signed a pledge against initiation of
    >force of ANY kind, see your supposed friend who supposedly wishes you no
    >harm at all, come charging at you and hitting you with his fists, you can
    >only assume that he intends you at least SOME harm (and I would call it
    >”real” – you may be confusing real with a certain level of degree, Mr.
    >Smith). It was definitely traumatic to me, so it most certainly was real,
    >to me.
    >-js.a I define it as someone who wants you dead or bleeding or with internal
    >injuries.
    >
    >JS: I can assume he has led a life with limited contact to violence.
    >GF: As an adult, limited, yes. I try to avoid it. However, there were
    >those two occasioins in the early 90s I just spoke of, plus I was atttacked
    >3 times in a 3-week period while in Costa Rica (no injuries, in case you
    >ask). I also had a woman I had been petitioning with in Arizona suddenly
    >start beating me because I told her I was too sick to drive her to New
    >Mexico. She also started false yelling “rape!”.
    > -js.a Again, very interesting. Beatings, torture, many different
    >occassions of false accusations. I think where you and I are coming to such
    >differences are you extremely dramatic word use.
    >
    >JS: I think the polygraph is an excellent idea, but also costly both
    >monitarily and emotionally.
    >GF: Well, you keep misspelling words. It’s “monetarily”, not “monitarily”.
    >And how is it costly emotionally?? I would GLADLY take the polygraph if it
    >means Andy can be exposed for his lies and that I can be believed when I
    >report a simple truth.
    >-js.a Passive aggressive attacks pointing out irrelavent spelling mistakes.
    >This shows that you like to feel superior to others and make other believe
    >so as well. Interesting.
    >
    >JS: I would further suggest that the monies be provided by both parties and
    >be paid for by the liar (just my thought), though with Gary’s socialistic
    >economics,
    >GF: That is a patent falsehood. There is nothing “socialistic” about my
    >economics. In fact, I’ve got the most free market economics of anyone I’ve
    >known or have ever known. You are just being stupid here. People have a
    >right to enclose pay in an envelope and say “here, this is y’all’s money to
    >split between you”. You are very confused about what socialism is, I assure
    >you.
    > -js.a Redistribution of wealth is certainly one of the things i would
    >socialism. And, since I hear you got YOUR money, I’m curious why they
    >didn’t send half to each of you, since you thought they were paying y’all as
    >a team.
    >
    >JS: The big question is, what is it Gary is expecting.
    >GF: What I have spelled out: to be kept completely away from by this
    >betraying “friend” and have no further violence visited upon me by him or
    >his equally deranged friend Jake. For these people to just leave me alone
    >and let me live in peace and harmony.
    >-js.a I think this would be easy. Simply pay the man what he is owed and he
    >will probably be on his way.
    >
    >JS: If he is wanting Andy to say he beat him and battered him, then I
    >think a polygraph would show that Gary believes it is true and Andy believe
    >it is not.
    >GF: Not so fast. You’re kind of a novice at this, aren’t you? Just
    >because someone is willing to lie IN EMAILS and seemingly get by with it
    >DOESN’T mean they are willing to lie ORALLY or IN PERSON and think they can
    >get by with it. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Andy would
    >fail the polygraph, when he denies that he didn’t start slapping and
    >punching me, and when he says that I did that to him instead. I can ASSURE
    >YOU 100% that Andy has an EXCELLENT memory and “BELIEVES”, “REMEMBERS”
    >though doesn’t ADMIT all of his battery on me.
    >-js.a LOL. no, but there’s that passive aggresive behaviour again.
    >
    >
    >JS: Did Andy intend true harm to gary. Myself, i doubt it.
    >JS: Did Andy beat gary with his fists. I doubt this as well, from the
    >evidence.
    >GF: What?! You are doubting something that is TRUE and HAPPENED, then.
    >This tells me that you a very lousy investigator, since I was RIGHT THERE
    >and EXPERIENCED Andy’s beating me with his fists. It’s silly to “doubt”
    >it. You are a silly person.
    >-js.a LOL. Again with the passive aggressive. there is no evidence that
    >either of you is telling the truth. Show some proof and I will believe you.
    >
    >JS: Did Andy create a continuing threatening environment for Gary. Again i
    >doubt it since Gary stayed.
    >GF: Is getting a restraining order “staying”? I have already SAID that
    >Andy created a continuing threatening environment, and you can “doubt” that
    >the sun sets in the west all you want, but he MOST CERTAINLY DID.
    >-js.a You stayed the first 2 times you were violently attacked (your
    >picture).
    >
    >JS: As for the mattress incident, I must disagree with Mr. Fincher. I have
    >stayed in many hotels and am quite confident it would be easy to recreate
    >this event.
    >GF: Okay, this is getting way to silly to even engage in anymore. Mr.
    >Smtih apparently is looking only for drama and trouble and knows damn well
    >that mattresses don’t turn into Mexican Jumping Mattresses and fly all the
    >way across to a different part of a room based on being kicked.
    >-js.a Well, once again you are using exaggerated words to describe the
    >incident. I am told you are a heavy man. I do know that he did not throw a
    >matteress and a heavy man across the room.
    >
    >What an interesting man.
    >
    >John

  80. The Truth

    GARY: OMG what a MORON Jake is: if I am telling the truth, as my sister asserts, then it OBVIOUSLY refutes what Andy is saying, since Andy is telling something different than me. Duh geez. Also Jake defines someone who eschews the initiation of violence as a COWARD, while the dictionarty defines it as a LIBERTARIAN. This idiot needs to start respecting peoples wishes and stop emailing me such brilliance.

    On Sun May 23rd, 2010 5:25 PM EDT Jake Witmer wrote:

    >This reaffirms the image I have of Gary as an inept fighter and coward, as well as someone who doesn’t pay his debts, but it doesn’t really contradict what Andy said happened.
    >
    >I agree that your resolution would be for the best though.
    >
    >Jake Witmer
    >C: (907) 250-5503
    >OMG what a MORON Jake is: if I am telling the truth, as my sister asserts, then it OBVIOUSLY refutes what Andy is saying, since Andy is telling something different than me. Duh geez. Also Jake defines someone who eschews the initiation of violence as a COWARD, while the dictionarty defines it as a LIBERTARIAN. This idiot needs to start respecting peoples wishes and stop emailing me such brilliance.

    On Sun May 23rd, 2010 5:25 PM EDT Jake Witmer wrote:

    >This reaffirms the image I have of Gary as an inept fighter and coward, as well as someone who doesn’t pay his debts, but it doesn’t really contradict what Andy said happened.
    >
    >I agree that your resolution would be for the best though.
    >
    >Jake Witmer
    >C: (907) 250-5503
    >

  81. bingo

    libertariangirl

    “ROFLMAO —- so – fucking -pathetic,,, there arent words and noone gives a shit”

    No kidding! GET A LIFE ppl.

  82. LibertarianGirl

    who makes big deal out of a simple fucing fight . I know plenty of men that have gotten drunk , mad whatever , and fist fought , none of them advertised it much less the loser , mpst would simply STFU , but all got over it quickly cuz thats what men do.
    then jus when it couldnt get any more pathetic , gary has his little sister write and defend him , as she apparently had to growing up , his younger sister …sigh…

  83. Katy Perry sings about Gary Fincher

    Like a girl changes clothes
    Yeah you, P M S
    Like a bitch
    I would know

    And you over think
    Always speak
    Crypticly

    I should know
    That you’re no good for me

  84. Summing it all up

    I think we all agree:

    Gary is a whiny, wimpy, crybaby, pathetic BITCH!

    This thread is now officially over.

  85. Jake Witmer

    I agree with the person who just summed it all up, but here are a few comments I think are worth mentioning:

    I’m interested in the person here who thinks he has something to gain in using the “guilt by association” arguments to try to make us all look crazy. Note that I didn’t make any posts to the above thread. My comments were reposted from private emails without my desire or permission (not that they needed my permission, since they were obviously being emailed to a hysterical man with a past of abusing public fora, but it’s still interesting that they were reposted here).

    All of these threads obviously make us look less intelligent, and less professional. When one person goads others into a public attack/defense, there is sometimes political strategy involved in that. Who would have such a strategy? I’d like to know.

    The Jessica Irons person is either Dondero or someone demented enough to be allied with him (reposting his stated opinions of paulie verbatim). …Interesting.

    Obviously, anyone calling me a “car theif” because I overextended my rental car (and paid a late fee when I returned it) is totally demented, and actually guilty of slander and libel. Of course, I don’t have the legal resources to track them down and make them pay for that, and nor would it be worth trying, but it is interesting to me that someone so obviously wants to destroy the petitioner base of the LP.

    Sean Haugh did nothing as LP political director, except interfere with ballot access. Let the record speak for itself: Under Haugh (who was being managed by Scott Kohlhaas, which explains his venomous disposition toward myself, Andy, Paulie, [the younger, saner] Gary, and Mark) the LP lost 5 states of ballot access and Washington DC. Those states/areas were ME, LA, CT, WV, OK, and DC. Those states were lost entirely because of his gross unprofessionalism, and his willingness to “blacklist” Andy, Paul, Gary, and Mark because Scott Kohlhaas ripped them off in 2006, and they publicly criticized him for it. (They were only paid because they eventually showed up at an LNC meeting and the members of the meeting were shamed –in page 14 of this PDF– into covering Kohlhaas’s debt to those petitioners:
    http://www.lp.org/archives/lnc20070721.pdf
    )

    The above link has been posted many times by the aggrieved petitioners, but it bears repeating that one must “follow the money” to understand people’s motivations. Scott Kohlhaas’s sudden abandonment of Ruwart and Kubby (for Barr, their antithesis) at the 2008 National Convention is also suspicious.

    While it’s true that Haugh had little to do with WV’s failure, he and Dondero did give advice to the clueless Shane Cory to basically “keep other petitioners out of the state and let Jake Witmer do it all himself” (an impossibility with 19 days left to collect 30,000 signatures).

    Insulting Andy and calling him inspiration for “the 40 year old virgin” is a psychologically effective insult (compare that to insulting portrayals of Gary and Paulie as “womanizers” and you see an attacker that desperately attempts to discredit people via attacks on their sex lives). Those who are trying to imagine what kind of people are being slandered here (and sometimes doing the slanderer’s work for them) are likely to assume there is some truth in these ad hominem attacks, lessening their sympathy. (Noone wants to come to the aid of someone who looks silly, noone wants to come to the aid of a woman-abuser. This is why similar personal attacks on M Carling from Bruce Cohen were among his most effective slanders. …Who can disprove them?)

    These threads are almost as destructive to the LP’s activist base as Sean Haugh (under Scott Kohlhaas) was.

    Perhaps the LP has “arrived”, since there are clearly a few anonymous spooks/goons who don’t want us on the ballot and running candidates. Pretty transparently, these people are allied with the War Party.
    http://www.harrybrowne.org/articles/LibertariansAndWar.htm

    The only reason these comments are here is because I personally don’t believe it is 100% a waste of time to determine who is attacking our activist base from an otherwise disinterested perspective.

    The internecine squabbles among the various petitioners are pathetic and petty, but typically, they are started by one party that contributes 95% of the “pathetic and petty”, and the other parties simply defend themselves in an awkward way. I ask the reader to imagine being similarly attacked, and wonder if they would want their friends to come to their aid or not? It’s hard to say, isn’t it? If you take an attack seriously, it sometimes makes it look true, or makes the person defending themselves look petty for even getting involved.

    The trend has emerged that Dondero defends Haugh’s mismanagement of the National LP petition drives in 2008. He is also a big fan of begging others to publicly defend his personal conduct (as if that validates it). (There is still an old and long-since-retracted quote from me on his homepage, praising his work ethic, since I could find nothing in his philosophy to praise at the time.)

    The anonymous slanders of petitioners here are –by far– the most interesting thing on this series of posts. “Jessica Irons” is clearly associated with Dondero, but his/her post includes information taken from private emails between the “warring factions”.

    The person who called me “a car theif” is taking Gary at his word, or is combing his and my emails. I’d like to know which it is. Extension of a car rental with corresponding financial penalty =/= auto theft. That’s probably the most petty comment here, and you can see that the person is really digging for some reason to slam Andy and myself along with the others. (Not that the others have necessarily done anything wrong, but someone like Dondero or someone associated with “F&E” would have more of an axe to grind with them.)

    Also, Paulie’s crime is in the past. Redpath hired him in 2002 and 2004, and he did good work then. If he was hirable in those years, performed well, then why slam him for his admitted prior past offenses? The answer, of course, is that this anonymous person doesn’t want us working for the LP. Why that is, we don’t know, unless it’s Dondero or Haugh, then we have a pretty good idea.

    …Just a few thoughts on all this horseshit stirred up by Gary. If there is something nefarious or goon-oriented here, it makes sense that they’d target Gary as someone to manipulate, since he’s broke. Broke people are easier to manipulate.

    Of course, the real goal of the anonymous posts seems to be to discredit Andy, who is probably the most reliable and honest petitioner who regularly works for the LP. He is harder working than I am (cue Dondero slamming my work ethic –LOL). Gary’s willingness to lie about Andy’s character bothers me a great deal. I wonder if someone put him up to it.

    It would also be interesting to know if someone is paying Dondero to stir up trouble amongst libertarian activists. He certainly seems to sit at home all day, posting bullshit mixed with small grains of truth for effectiveness.

    Those are my thoughts on the internecine squabbles among LP “street level” activists.

    I encourage people to not take anonymous posts seriously here, since they appear to have the intent of smearing the people who typically have done the best and most complete job of placing the LP on the ballot, in the most states.

  86. Paranoid much?

    Good lord. Jake needs to stop smoking meth and start taking his psych meds.

  87. Free And Equal team shines, while the loser team just whines

    GPTX Announces Successful Petition Drive

    MEDIA ADVISORY
    Green Party of Texas to Hold Press Conference

    Turning in of Over 90,000 Petition Signatures
    to Secretary of State on Monday

    WHEN
    Monday, May 24, 2:00 p.m.
    Signatures will be turned in immediately after the press conference.

    WHERE
    Outside the Secretary of State’s office, Rusk Building
    208 East 10th Street, 3rd Floor, Austin

    WHAT
    The Green Party of Texas will turn in over 90,000 signatures on Monday, in an effort to get the Party on the General Election ballot this November. If accepted, this will be the first time the Green Party has had ballot access since 2002.

    The State of Texas maintains one of the nation’s most restrictive ballot access policies. Currently, a political party seeking a place on the ballot must gather 43,991 valid signatures before the Secretary of State recognize it as an official political party.

    To further complicate the process, Texas requires that signatures be gathered during a very narrow time period of 75 days, and only registered voters who did not vote in the primary are eligible to sign. This “primary screen-out” provision is exclusive to Texas. All other states that previously had this provision have since eliminated it.

    WHO
    Green Party of Texas
    Free and Equal

    CONTACTS
    Kat Swift
    Statewide Coordinator
    210-471-1791 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 210-471-1791 end_of_the_skype_highlighting

    Nicolas Freeman
    210-471-1756 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 210-471-1756

    Wow! 90,000 signatures in 14 days!

    Free and Equal is the best petition company.

    Team Loser (TM) aka GAP boys by contrast are doing nothing but whining endlessly on the internet.

    Everyone hire Sean Haugh….Nobody should hire the losers. All they bring is problems…ask Sean Haugh, Christina Tobin, NC LP, AZ LP, etc, etc….

  88. Free And Equal team shines, while the loser team just whines

    See comments 39, 40, 41, 42, 43 and 44 above, absolutely 100% true.

    GAP boys + Witmer + front man Pickens = Losers who should be always blackballed, never hired.

    Could they get 90,000 signatures in 14 days like Free and Equal just did? Not on your life.

  89. Free And Equal team shines, while the loser team just whines

    gary, andy, “paulie” and jake don’t even deserve to shine Sean Haugh’s shoes! They are worthless pissants who can’t even hold up a clipboard without drooling. But what they make up for in lack of petition skills, social graces and personal hygiene, they make up for by their sheer volume of garbage posted on this, and other websites.

  90. Free And Equal team shines, while the loser team just whines

    I must say it is funny to watch the Gary/Andy falling out. They remind me of rats on a sinking ship – the uss Team Loser, heading straight for the bottom.

  91. Andy

    There is no “team.” I’m an individual who sometimes works with other individuals (and other times works alone), but this does not make me part of any team. So there is no team and there is no “us against them.”

    The “Free & Equal” team is a misleading statement. “Free & Equal” is Christina Tobin and Sean Haugh doing business under the name of a corporate entity. If they get a deal they hire mercenary petitioners, the same mercenary petitioners who are hired by many other organizations. To act as though they are all a part of a “team” is ridiculous.

    I don’t know if the Green Party petition which they are working on in Texas will make it or not. The validity check by the state has not been done yet, so I wouldn’t count those chickens before they are hatched.

    If it does suceed, it will mainly be due to two factors:

    1) This drive is actually being paid for by Republicans. These Republicans want to get the Green Party on the ballot in Texas because they hope to draw votes away from Democrats. They paid out a LOT of money for this petition drive. I know that the street price on this petition is $4 per signature, plus they are paying for travel and motel expenses for petitioners. This is a higher than average pay rate for this type of petition. This also does not include coordinator overrides. So the actual price per raw signature is probably more like $6 per signature or higher.

    The Republicans “donated” this money to the Free & Equal Foundation (because it would have been too obvious what was going on if they gave it directly to the Green Party), and then the Free & Equal Foundation used the money to hire the Free & Equal petitioning company (suprise, suprise). The Free & Equal Foundation and the Free & Equal petitioning company are just Christina Tobin and Sean Haugh operating under different names. So the money was donated to Christina Tobin and Sean Haugh and then Christina Tobin and Sean Haugh hired themselves, and then they called in a bunch of mercenary petitioners who were working in various place around the country for other groups.

    2) There just happened to be a petition crew which was already working in Texas on a local ballot initiative in Dallas. This was a local liquor option petition in which stores WANTED petitioners there (and note that stores in Texas are generally hostile to petitioners and that the law in Texas does not back petitioners up) because these petitions are to expand their liquor sales. This is a unique situation because it gave this Green Party petition drive a built in petition crew in Dallas. All Tobin & Haugh had to do was hire the petition coordinator in Dallas and make this person a subcoordinator under them and this person in Dallas then gave out the Green Party petition to all of the petitioners that this person already had working on the city petition.

    There also just happened to be another expierenced petition coordinator who was working in Houston. This person also had a crew that was working on something, but it was not a petition, although it was similiar to a petition. This person had s crew that was workign on this utilities thing where they go around – mostly door-to-door I’ve heard – asking people to sign up for some type of utility service. So once again, all Haugh and Tobin had to do was to hire this person in Houston as a subcoordinator and then this person distributed the Green Party petition to everyone that was on his crew.

    Then supplement this by Haugh calling his go to guy, Darryl Bonner. Bonner then brings in some people that he knows off of the mercenary petitioning circuit and bingo, you’ve got your petition crew.

    So let’s review what happened here.

    1) Republicans – hoping to draw votes away from Democrats – want to spend a LOT of money to put the Green Party on the ballot in Texas.

    2) They don’t want it to look too obvious so instead of donating the money directly to the Green Party they donate it to Tobin’s foundation.

    3) Tobin’s foundation hires Tobin’s petitioning company (which is just Tobin & Haugh operating under a different name).

    4) There are two crew who are ALREADY on the ground in Texas working on different projects. The petition coordinators who were put in charge of these other projects are then hired by Tobin & Haugh and they give the Green Party petition to the petition crews that they’ve already got on the ground working on other stuff.

    5) Haugh calls up mercenary petitioner Darryl Bonner and Darryl brings in some other people that he knows.

    6) Tobin & Haugh sit back and take credit for other people’s work.

    If this thing succeeds it will NOT be because of any great accomplishment from Tobin & Haugh, but rather will be due to the fact that there were ALREADY petition coordinators who had crews on the ground in Dallas and Houston working on other projects (and I knew that these people were there working on other stuff several weeks ago myself; I had even thought of going to Dallas to work on that local issue), Darryl Bonner, and most importantly, all of that money from Republicans.

    And as I said above, I wouldn’t count these chicken egges before they hatch. The state has not done the validity check. They may or may not have made it. I guess we’ll have to wait and see. Even if they do make it, it is not because of anything great magic from Tobin & Haugh. The petition circulators did the work and Tobin & Haugh lucked out by there having been two crews already on the ground in Texas prior to this, and NONE of this would have happened without all of that Republican money.

  92. Andy

    “I must say it is funny to watch the Gary/Andy falling out. They remind me of rats on a sinking ship – the uss Team Loser, heading straight for the bottom.”

    It is not a falling out on my end. I think that Gary is overreacting. I also think that the real reason that this started is due to Gary stressing out about not getting his pay from Missouri. When a person is hard up for money, and they are owed a lot of money, and then they don’t get that money when they are expecting to get it, then it creates a lot of stress.

    I’ve heard that he’s either gotten this money or is just about to get it, and I hope that he does get it. I just got a call from somebody from that campaign in Missouri today and I was told that they are going to mail me a reimbursment check that I’m owed for the car that I rented while in Missouri.

    Anyway, I am more than willing to bury this thing and take Gary back as a friend.

  93. LibertarianGirl

    i dont exactly see the conspiracy in managers hiring out and then taking credit for the workers work , in addition it the workers fail , the managers are also responsible

  94. Andy

    Since the subject matter being discussed falls under the category of drama, I heard about some drama that happened on the Green Party petition drive in Texas. One petitioner was accused of stealing petition signatures from another petitioner and then turning those signatures in as their own.

    This same petitioner was also accused of calling up a Wal-Mart (note that Wal-Mart usually hassles petitioners and kicks them out but I heard that this Wal-Mart was actually allowing petitioning, most likely due to them benifiting from the local liquor option petition which was being worked on at the same time as the Green Party petition) and complaining in order to get two petitioners kicked out, either because they wanted the spot for themselves or as an act of revenge.

    There is drama that goes on in just about every petition drive (or anything else in life for that matter). The only difference here is that most people don’t post about petty personal drama online.

  95. Lies, lies, lies, lies????????? .......... Lake

    Free And Equal // May 24, 2010:
    ‘………..“paulie” and ……….. are worthless piss ants who can’t even hold a clip board without drooling. ‘

    [Lake: Hey, hey, hey! I am constantly disappointed in and unhappy with “paulie” and BAN and TPW and IPR. He and I just do not see key board to key board on a number issues, general and specific. ]

    [How ever I (and lots of others I have known for years) have not shared the negatives on “paulie’s” other attributes. As important as petitioning is, we (anti establishment types) do not need to tear down bright and shining stars with little or no reason.]

    [….. besides, I have it on shabby authority that “paulie” is now buying name brand vodka and, in addition, I’ve sent him a ‘pill caddy’ for his meds! Do his hands still shake like a California earth quake ????? May be, but he does not drool any more (or any less ????????)! *humor, or attempts there of*]

  96. Andy

    “LibertarianGirl // May 24, 2010 at 2:02 pm

    i dont exactly see the conspiracy in managers hiring out and then taking credit for the workers work , in addition it the workers fail , the managers are also responsible”

    I didn’t say that it was a conspiracy. I’m just pointing out that Tobin & Haugh – operating under the Free & Equal banners – are not accomplishing some great achievement in Texas. They are merely taking advantage of Republican money and the fact that there were already 2 petition crews on the ground in Texas working on other projects. And of course this is supplemented with Haugh calling up Darryl Bonner.

    All Tobin & Haugh do is take credit for other people’s work. I just don’t consider taking credit for other people’s work to be some great achievement.

    Also, when Tobin & Haugh fail, they blame it on the state. For evidence of this see the Sundwall campaign or the ballot access failures of 2008 (all fo which could have been saved, with the exception of LP ballot access in Oklahoma which was doomed to fail before 2008). If this petition drive fails in Texas they will likely blame it on the state as well. It won’t be, “The petitioners we hired got bad validity.” It will be, “The state screwed us over. Poor us. Now please donate more money.”

  97. Loser team chokin' the chicken

    Free and Equal is awesome!

    Loser Team go gag on a BAG OF DICKS…losers!

    Even Donald Lake and libertariangirl agree.

    Is there anyone left who likes the loser team?

    LOL Maybe Milnes will hire you after this. Because as far as we can tell you losers are out of luck as the word is getting out about you all.

  98. Loser team chokin' the chicken

    Kick ass! It is becoming increasingly apparent to everyone that Free and Equal is the winning team that should get all ballot access contracts.
    Sean Haugh is the best petition coordinator.

    The Loser Team (TM) – “paulie,” Andy, Gary, Jake and their friends – will be increasingly shut out of work. NO MORE WORK for the losers. With any luck they will all go kill themselves.

    Notable that Free and Equal does not hire any of them. Clearly Free and Equal (Sean Haugh and Christina Tobin) know what they are doing and have good reason.

  99. Andy

    There is no team. I am not officially aligned with anyone.

    Also, Free & Equal is just Christina Tobin & Sean Haugh operating under different names. There are no Free & Equal petitioners. Petitioners that they hire are the same mercenary petitioners that everyone else hires. To act like they are all part of the Free & Equal team is disengenuous. Most of these people don’t give a rat’s ass about Free & Equal or the Green Party or anything else other than getting a pay check.

  100. LibertarianGirl

    **Even Donald Lake and libertariangirl agree.**

    lets be clear , I think Gay is a pussy and needs to man up , dnt know much about Andy except that he holds grudges a long time and would like to see Sean Haugh die slowly , and Paulie I like

  101. Loser team chokin' the chicken

    HA HA I can understand Mr. Jacobs trying to disavow his team right now. Even the loser team does not like the loser team!

    Hire the same petitioners as everyone else? True, and they don’t hire the LOSER TEAM. Blackballed, just like they are soon to be by…everyone…else.

  102. Loser team chokin' the chicken

    “ROFL , I mean Gary , not Gay , hahaha best typo ever”

    OUCH. That’s gotta hurt!

    Fincher just got knocked out by a girl.

  103. Andy

    “LibertarianGirl // May 24, 2010 at 6:18 pm

    **Even Donald Lake and libertariangirl agree.**

    lets be clear , I think Gay is a pussy and needs to man up , dnt know much about Andy except that he holds grudges a long time and would like to see Sean Haugh die slowly , and Paulie I like.”

    I don’t typically hold grudges for a long time. In fact, if a person apologizes and does things to make whatever they did to me up to me, then I will drop a grudge. Also, the more minor the offense the more likely I am to drop something, especially if the person wants to reconcile.

    The reason that I have a grudge against the likes of Sean Haugh and Scott Kohlhaas is that they both committed major offenses and neither of them ever did anything to make it up to me or apologize or even showed any signs of remorse. Also, these individuals (as well as a few others), didn’t just screw me over or just me and a few other petitioners, they screwed over the entire Libertarian Party by wasting donor resources, causing candidates to fail to make the ballot in several states where they could have made it, among other things.

    As I said earlier in this thread, I am more than willing to reconcile with Gary.

  104. Andy

    “Hire the same petitioners as everyone else? True, and they don’t hire the LOSER TEAM. Blackballed, just like they are soon to be by…everyone…else.”

    I’m not blackballed, nor am I even close to being blackballed. In fact, a coordinator in California was just praising my work a few days ago, and I’ve got coordinators who are vying for my services in other states right now. You don’t know what you are talking about.

  105. LibertarianGirl

    Andy , since Ive known you _ cyberwise that is – at least 75% of your posts , conversations etc have been about Haugh and what he did what is now years ago.

  106. Andy

    “LibertarianGirl // May 24, 2010 at 9:42 pm

    Andy , since Ive known you _ cyberwise that is – at least 75% of your posts , conversations etc have been about Haugh and what he did what is now years ago.”

    Then you haven’t read most of my posts.

    Also, the stuff about Haugh is more current than that. There is a lot of stuff from the 2008 election which was only 2 years ago, plus stuff from 2009 and 2010.

    And as I said, you must not have read most of my posts because I have posted about many other topics.

  107. Why there is a restraining order out on Andy Jacobs

    GARY: If you listen to Andy, you won’t get even NEAR the truth. I didn’t “try to turn in” any signatures to Andy – I just quietly put them in an envelope (just in case it was just “hype” that the petition had ended, or would “come back” as petitions sometimes do) to mail to Eileen, as there were only two signatures and two petition sheets.

    Also, it was Andy that threw the crazed FIT over my mailing the two petitions, not me. He flew into a VERITABLE RAGE,, ripped up my sheets, and then, without batting an eye, started hitting me like a psycho – I was stunned and fearful for my safety.

    Also, Andy is INFLATING the money I owe him, HUGELY, by SEVERAL thousand dollars. In other words, if he persists and forces me (under threat of violence as I’m sure is what he has in mind given his behavior back in California) to pay the amount he is trying to force upon me, then it will be HE who commits FRAUD and THEFT. (He has already committed fraud by lying about attacking me.)

    And finally, I’m not sure why you ask how many signatures I had been sending (if that is what you’re asking) as the number of sigs isn’t really relevant to his getting violent and ripping up my pages – they were mine and none of his business. How he could get SO ANGRY because I was quietly writing on some petitions says a LOT about his psyche and character. And it says I want to have nothing to do with him. I want to surround myself with peaceful people – always.

    Thanks.

    Gary

  108. Court is on Friday the 28th

    GARY: Andy had better STOP his LIES (about his repeated hitting/slapping/punching/striking me, starting on May 5 and ending on May 8) and STOP his unwelcome contacts to me, or he is going to make me REALLY angry.

    There is NO WAY I would publicly SWEAR that Andy WENT BERSERK and went out-of-control attacking me if it didn’t happen. NO WAY would I swear to this UNDER OATH and under PENALTY of perjury and get a restraining order.

    And btw there IS a monetary cost to having to do all of this, and make trips to the court etc. Andy had BETTER MAKE GOOD on those, since he is the CA– USE of my having to do all of that.

  109. Andy Jacobs: Stalker, Batterer, Thief, Violating Legal Restraining Order

    GARY: If Andy is “man” enough to flex his muscle and start beating on someone, then why isn’t he man enough to OWN UP TO DOING IT?

  110. Andy

    NOBODY was beat up on. This is BULLSHIT!

    What happened was that Gary shoved me over two WORTHLESS pieces of paper and then continued YELLING so I asked him to leave the room several times.

    Gary REF– USED to leave the room. So in Garyland, it must be OK to stay in somebody’s room and yell and then NOT leave when the person who is the renter of the room (ME) asks them to leave.

    I asked Gary to leave several times and he continued to REF– USE to leave, so then I told him that if he did not leave that I was going to throw him out myself.

    I want everyone who is reading this to think about this for a moment. You have a person in your home who starts yelling so you ask that person to leave. The person REF– USES to leave. Do you not have the right to ask that person to leave? Do you not have the right to throw that person out of your home if they refuse to leave?

    There are people out there who make their livings throwing people out of establishments. They are called bouncers.

    I told Gary to leave MY ROOM and he REF– USED, so then I said that if he did not leave that I was going to throw him out myself. I then walked over to the bed where he was sitting and I told him to leave on more time, and he STILL REF– USED to leave, so then I pushed him and he fell backwards on the MATTRESS (which was soft). Then he was swinging his arms back and forth from his back so I grabbed each of his arms with one hand, BUT THEN I RELEASED HIM A FEW MOMENTS LATER WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING ELSE BECA– USE I REALIZED WHAT A STUPID ARGUEMENT IT WAS.

    NOBODY was beaten up. NOBODY was hurt. I NEVER threw one punch or did anything else to Gary.

    Gary incurred ZERO physical damage and ZERO financial damage.

    Gary came to me 3 more times after this, one time requesting that I pay him for signatures, and I did this EVEN THOUGH IT WAS NOT MY JOB.

    If Gary was really threatened, why did he come to me 3 times after this? He OBVIOUSLY was NOT threatened.

    I have to witnesses who saw Gary in San Jacinto who can attest to the fact that they saw ZERO signs of injury on Gary, and one of the witnesses saw me gathering signatures with Gary at a Post Office in San Jacinto, and this was AFTER the arguement.

    NO crime was committed. There were NO police. There was NO medical personel. The motel staff didn’t say anything. There was NOTHING.

    Gary was able to carry his luggage and his petition table and he was able to continue working. As I said above, I’ve got two witnesses who SAW Gary after this and they saw ZERO indication of any injuries.

    This whole thing is a bunch of NONSENSICAL DRAMA.

    I think that Gary is using this as an excuse to NOT pay me money which he rightfully owes me. This is pretty damn sad. I’m quite disappointed in him.

  111. lil girl blue

    I agree that Gary is using this as an excuse to not pay you. He actually took a video of me talking to Jane and used it out of context. He is forcing my video to represent a character witness against andy. I must say this, i do not think Andy is violent. He has a terrible temper but I dont think he would go so far as to hit Gary. Gary doesn’t even have any bruises on him. He would if Andy hit him like he said he did.
    If my baby’s father sees this on youtube he will try to get custody saying look at all the stalking and drama around my son. This is feasible. It could happen. Gary was harassing me for three days straight until he thought he needed my support against Andy. Although yes, Andy stalked and harassed me, I have no right or reason to be a character witness against him. I do not know him well enough. I was not htere in MO> I dont know what happened. I just know that Gary said he took a backhand slap when he began texting me in the middle of the night. Then the next week all this broke out. I just saw the video the other day and I am infuriated. I have begged him to take it down and I ask this…..if he thinks Andy is so violent then why would he want to put a single mother in jeopardy? He says it would weaken his case to have me off the video. But he used me out of context! It is not fair and I think you all should flag it on youtube!

  112. Sick of fincher

    Yeah, the video is bullshit. And GF is a whiny crybaby. He did not get beat up, where is the evidence? He just wants to stir drama and welsh on debts. Notice the restraining order/court date did not actually happen after all the talk.

    He also got advances from two or more coordinators to go to Washington State and disappeared with the money.

    He needs to stop giving out other people’s personal information for the whole world to see without getting permission.

    His girlfriend left him…she probably did not know she was getting involved with a man who acts like a woman.

    Bottom line: if Gary wants you to hire him, date him, lend or advance him money, let him record you, or be his friend – JUST SAY NO.

  113. LibertarianGirl

    So I brought it on myself by even commenting on this bullshit , so I blame myself , but Andy , knock it the fuck off with sending emails with my name in it to antagonize anyone . dont involve me in your pathetic drama . you say you just want it over , but u dont , ur fucking obsessed and its just as bad as Gary . cease and desist spreading emails with my name in the title , ya dig. jackass!

  114. Gary Fincher

    Ok, I have to comment on “Sick of Fincher” and set the record straight – AGAIN – so that more weird falsehoods don’t perpetuate.

    I’m not sure how absolutely not putting up with violence makes one a “whiny crybaby” but LOL that statement just goes to show who is the one wanting drama (I am the one wanting it to stop – yet I also want people held accountable for criminal actions).

    It is a complete falsehood that I “got advances from [any] coordinators” and disappeared with money. I got an advance from ONE coordinator, and have promptly repaid it. In fact, Eileen Ray just sent me an email commenting on refreshing it was that I’m honest.

    The restraining order has been videotaped, so yes, it does exist, and yes, there was a court date and no, Andy did not appear. (I don’t know when people will get hip to the fact that I’m not going to lie about these things, for heaven’s sake.)

    Not sure who would say “his girlfriend left him”, without knowing any facts of this highly personal, sensitive matter.

    The video that involved Christy was my property, she made it willingly, was perfectly fine with it for many weeks, so there was no problem at all with its being posted on youtube.

    LG, what exactly do you mean by “as bad as Gary”? What have I done that is bad?

    I hope I never have to comment here again or set anything straight.

  115. Gary Fincher

    Andy wrote: ” The motel staff didn’t say anything. ”

    Oh one more thing…aside from the fact that Andy lied about not “thowing a punch” (unless you look at it like, well, he didn’t throw A punch – he threw dozens), the above statement is also false.

    During the second attack when Andy turned the table over on me and used it as a rudimentary, momentary weapon against me, I know for a fact that the hotel manager DID come to the door asking what was going on inside

    Andy responded by telling the manager something akin to “Yeah, ok, we’ll keep it down.” I was on my back at the time and was in no position to get to the motel mgr first, otherwise I may have mentioned Andy’s attack right then and there.

    Ok, done setting straight now (but keep in mind I haven’t read everything on here, so there may be some things I’ve missed.)

  116. Gary

    Geez, keep thinking of things to add.

    I forgot to mention that when i got advanced money from that coordinator to get to Washington State, and paid it back exactly two weeks later, I threw in a little bit more for his trouble.

    And btw while I’m on the topic of money…to those strange individuals who are grasping at straws to try to connect what Andy did to me with the money I owe him, let me say unequivocally that this matter HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY MONEY ANYONE IS OWED.

    If repaying money is something I’m a nature to get out of, then why did I pay paulie back? Why did I pay Eileen Ray back? Why did I pay John Michael back (recently)? Why did I pay Arenza Thigpen back? And, for that matter, why did I pay Andy back so much money (even if I didn’t make it to completion?) So you can see, this line of “reasoning” is weak.

    And for that matter, if I didn’t want to pay Andy back, why would I have to stretch and fabricate a story that would, if false, hurt him so bad? Why would I need to do that? If I wanted to not pay him back, I could just – now listen closely as I will not repeat it – not pay him back. No story would be needed for such a move.

    So sorry if you guys are looking for a sensational link between Andy’s actions on me and money – there is none. Sorry if that’s anticlimactic.

    (That’s bad news I realize for Jake – who seems to be looking for a story where there is none, in troublemaking fashion, like he did for the folks in AZ who had to actually forcibly ship his butt out of the state to get peace & relief, if you want to talk “crybaby”. Jake can’t connect any of his dots on Andy’s counter to my charges, so he gets really frustrated and starts cyber-ranting and berating his new “whipping boy” fixation [me].)

  117. Andy

    Wow, more bullshit from Gary. I don’t have the time to respond to all of this nonsense right now, but here are just a few quick points.

    1) I was the one who told him that Arenza was offering a pay advance for petitioners to come to Washington to join his petition crew. I told Gary this AFTER we had our “tiff.” You see, this is another illustration of just how disingenuous Gary is being. He still talked to me SEVERAL times AFTER this “tiff” happened, and Gary in FACT sought me out. I was the one who suggested that Gary go to Washington, I was the one who told him about Arenza’s offer, and I even GAVE him Arenza’s cell phone number. So once again I hooked Gary up with yet ANOTHER work opportunity.

    2) It is considered to be highly unethical to take a pay advance or expense money from one petition coordinator and then work with another petition coordinator. Gary took Arenza’s money, and then didn’t even bother to stop where Arenza was and went to another part of the state.

    3) Gary has been up there for like 3 weeks and now he is FINALLY paying Arenza his money back. Even if he throws Arenza something extra I think that Arenza still has legitimate grounds to be irritated. Petition coordiantors make their money off of overrides off of signatures collected by petitioners on their crew. Arenza offered this pay advance so petitioners would come to Washington AND be on his petition crew. For Gary to take Arenza’s money and NOT be on Arenza’s petition crew DEFEATS the purpose of why Arenza offered this deal. Gary finally paid Arenza back but this does not erase the fact that what Gary did is considered to be unethical. He should have either NEVER taken Arenza’s money in the first place or at least paid Arenza back IMMEDIATELY. No petition coordinator appreciates a petitioner who takes a pay advance or expense money and then does not work through them. That is a major no no in the petition business and Gary has been around more than long enough to know better.

    3) I talked to another petition coordinator the other day and during the course of the conversation he asked me where the heck Gary was. He said that Gary came in and took petition paper and hadn’t done a turn in and they were wondering what the heck happened to him. He said that he tried calling him several times and that Gary didn’t return the calls and that his mail box went full. So it sounds like Gary spent a lot of time sitting on his ass in his motel room instead of working (which is a big reason why he’s broke so often and has to borrow money from people). It sounds like he may have finally gotten back to work, but he likely wasted a bunch of time bullshitting around.

    4) Gary is being highly dishonest as he is slandering me with falsehoods. Christy and Paul both disavowed stuff from them that Gary tried to twist around and use against me. Gary KNOWS what the REAL stories are in those situations and he KNOWS damn well that he’s being DISHONEST.

    5) Gary attempted to turn Jake against me but Jake saw through Gary’s BS and that’s why Gary is attacking Jake now. Gary KNOWS damn well what he said above about Jake is not true. Jake got stabbed in the back in Arizona and Gary KNOWS that. Gary himself has been stabbed in the back and unfairly blacklisted before so for him to act like Jake getting stabbed in the back in Arizona (a place where Gary also got stabbed in the back and blacklisted for a time due to Sean Haugh slandering him there) has any legitimacy is so disingenuous that it makes me want to puke. Gary is just upset that Jake didn’t fall for his attempt at slandering me. It is very petty and dishonest for Gary to smear Jake in this manner.

    6) This ENTIRE discussion is COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC for Independent Political Report. This does NOT have a damn thing to do with minor party or independent candidate ballot access. Does Gary think that this is some kind of forum for him to come and whine about anything? If so he doesn’t get it. The reason that it was appropriate to complain about Sean Haugh and Scott Kohlhaas and Shane Cory here is because they were placed in management positions on Libertarian Party ballot access drives (and Sean Haugh has gone on to work for the Greens as well). This absurd dispute between Gary and I has NOTHING to do with minor party or independent candidate ballot access, therefore it is COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC and is INNAPPROPRIATE to even post about it here. Also, NOBODY gives a rat’s ass. I was at the LP National Convention in St. Louis and everyone who was aware of these IDIOTIC posts either didn’t give a shit or thought that Gary was in the WRONG. “LibertarianGirl” Debra reiterated to me in person that she thinks that Gary is acting like a crybaby and that he should pay me my money back. This entire situation is the height of absurdity.

  118. Shut the fuck up ga/r/y filcher

    She pretty much sums it all up when it comes to ga(r)y filcher
    ……………………………………….

    LibertarianGirl // May 23, 2010 at 1:51 pm

    GARY_Gary: btw I am about to travel to San Diego and will rent Room 102 where the mattress AND table incidents occurred. I will take my video camera and finally put his outlandish mattress theory to rest (no pun intended). I will lie on the bed and have someone Andy’s size try to kick the mattress to see if it moves (it probably won’t even slide at all, let alone flip to the other side of the room). Anyway, this should take place in the next week or 10 days…be on the lookout.

    me__ ROFLMAO —- so – fucking -pathetic,,, there arent words and noone gives a shit

    LibertarianGirl // May 23, 2010 at 7:56 pm

    who makes big deal out of a simple fucing fight . I know plenty of men that have gotten drunk , mad whatever , and fist fought , none of them advertised it much less the loser , mpst would simply STFU , but all got over it quickly cuz thats what men do.
    then jus when it couldnt get any more pathetic , gary has his little sister write and defend him , as she apparently had to growing up , his younger sister …sigh…

    LibertarianGirl // May 24, 2010 at 6:18 pm

    **Even Donald Lake and libertariangirl agree.**

    lets be clear , I think Gay is a pussy and needs to man up , dnt know much about Andy except that he holds grudges a long time and would like to see Sean Haugh die slowly , and Paulie I like
    107 LibertarianGirl // May 24, 2010 at 6:19 pm

    ROFL , I mean Gary , not Gay , hahaha best typo ever

  119. Shut the fuck up ga/r/y filcher

    gf (gay fuck) The restraining order has been videotaped, so yes, it does exist, and yes, there was a court date and no, Andy did not appear. (I don’t know when people will get hip to the fact that I’m not going to lie about these things, for heaven’s sake.)

    stfugf: So, did YOU show up at this alleged court date gf? lol

  120. Shut the fuck up ga/r/y filcher

    gf lies like a whore in church

    “The video that involved Christy was my property, she made it willingly, was perfectly fine with it for many weeks, so there was no problem at all with its being posted on youtube.”

    Bullshit ga/r/y filcher fuck you and the horse whose ass you suck. She ask you take down her talking shit about somone you should of take it down no questions asked. She was OK with it being shown to 1-2 PPL not the whole world you lying sac of shit.

  121. Shut the fuck up ga/r/y filcher

    ga/r/y filcher: If repaying money is something I’m a nature to get out of, then why did I pay paulie back? Why did I pay Eileen Ray back? Why did I pay John Michael back (recently)? Why did I pay Arenza Thigpen back? And, for that matter, why did I pay Andy back so much money (even if I didn’t make it to completion?) So you can see, this line of “reasoning” is weak.

    Shut the fuck up ga/r/y filcher: Hmmm, how much did you owe these people? How long did it take you to pay each of them how much?

    Maybe the $10,000 plus you owe Andy just got to be overwhelming?You lazy ass bitch.

    If you paid Eileen it must of been real recent probably with the Missouri Money all which you should of turn over to Andy along with your (actually his) car.

  122. Shut the fuck up ga/r/y filcher

    ga/r/y filcher: And for that matter, if I didn’t want to pay Andy back, why would I have to stretch and fabricate a story that would, if false, hurt him so bad? Why would I need to do that? If I wanted to not pay him back, I could just – now listen closely as I will not repeat it – not pay him back. No story would be needed for such a move.

    Shut the fuck up ga/r/y filcher: Really, no story needed to rip off a friend who has bailing your sorry ass out for years?

    That really shows what a total lowlife piece of shit you really are that you would think so.

    Word is getting out about you motherfucker.

  123. Word on da street; fincher suicides

    Rumor has it that Gary Fincher drove to Tennessee, from Washington State where he did no work, parked his dilapidated piece of shit car (that rightfully belongs to Andy) in his ex-girlfriend’s garage, closed the door, started his engine, and killed himself with carbon monoxide poisoning.

    In his suicide message he blamed Andy for “turning everyone against him.”

    His ex-GF Jane when reached for comment said “if I had wanted to date a woman I would have gone lesbian. That is why I dumped the fat, whiny bitch ass Fincher.”

    IPR’s Paulie when asked said “don’t even ask me about that, I don’t want to talk about him.”

    Andy was also contacted…he said “Gary used to be a great guy, I want the old Gary back. Also, I want my money. ”

    Overall, 9 out of 10 people surveyed have said that Fincher will not be missed.

    In case that rumor is not true and Fincher has not killed himself, most people agreed that he should stop talking about it and just go ahead and do it already. No time like the present.

  124. The suspense is killing me - did Fincher kill himself or not?

    If anyone knows, please post.

  125. MethinksGary Fincher is too cowardly and egotistical to actually kill himself

    So, all this talk about fincher putting himself out of everyone’s misery.

    All in vain, says I: the G-man is too narcisistic and lacking in testicular fortitude to end his worthless exisence, but keeps threatening to do it in the true fashion of a drama queen/attention whore. This bitch-like behavior is another reason why he has been constantly frustrated in his attempts to keep a woman.

    Anyone want to lay odds on his going through with it? My take: little or no chance.

    Just to be fair, no one I know has heard from him in the last few days.

    Doo doo, doo doo…

  126. Methinks Ga/r/y Fi[l/n]cher is too cowardly and narcisistic to actually kill himself

    Attention Whore
    From Uncyclopedia, the content-free encyclopedia.

    http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Attention_Whore

    “There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about. And not being fellated sucks as well, or not, as the case may be”

    ~ Oscar Wilde on being an attention whore, and also not getting any

  127. Fincher is Suicidal says his message to andy.

    I never heartedly endorsed your video. You are a mad man! Would you dare tell a survivor of a concentration camp that the Holocaust never happened. How dare you attack me. I never supported either sided and all you have done is gotten mad and taken your anger out on me. You told me that if I did not get jane back the video was going back up. You told me that if I did not get Andy to confess to attacking you the video was staying up. You said quote”There is your incentive now go!” Then finally you removed it. I thought all this was over. Then out of nowhere you start to harass me on the phone by leaving wierd messages on my phone saying quit stalking me. Now that is odd because I have not called or contacted you at all since that video was for sure down. Andy and I are not in the same category. I was your friend that let you crash on her couch when you came through town and I helped you pick out clothes to look nice, and I was also the friend that talked you out of suicide over four times. I am deathly afraid of one of my rapists. He could kill me even today. You are trying to get him involved in this and you are threatening my life! Please Gary, I beg you to just stop harassing me. Do you not see how this is sociopathic behavior? You need to go to the doctor, and get some meds for your head. It is not something to be asshamed of. Many people have a little chemical imbalance.
    All this started because YOU made phone calls and texts to me in the middle of the night. Andy got mad at you for harassing me. You did it with a smile on your face I hear.
    Why do you think it is so funny to harass me? Is it because I am not as strong as Jake who has the ability or the time to write like a master and put you in your place?
    Is it because I am worthless because I am not rich like Andy and can loan you ten grand on a moments notice?
    Is it because all I was-was a friend to you?
    Meaningless=friend to you

  128. Gary Fincher is at it again

    Gary is at it again folks. What do you recommend I do to get him to stop harassing me. Leaving things alone and letting him message all lies about me has not worked. Not taking his calls has not worked. He continues to text and message me. soooo what is the word, what should I do?
    This creep is indirectly threatening my life.

  129. Gary Fincher

    Christy (6/15/2009 11:29:55 PM): andy messaged me today with a picture of us again
    Christy (6/15/2009 11:29:56 PM): omg
    Christy (6/15/2009 11:30:06 PM): hes fuckin nuts
    Christy (7/2/2009 12:43:20 AM): I been havin all sorts of andy drama and wanted to share with you
    Christy (7/2/2009 12:43:30 AM): he came over unannounced, of coarse
    Me (7/2/2009 12:43:31 AM): He called me todzy
    Me (7/2/2009 12:43:48 AM): yeah, didn’t we figure he would do that?
    Christy (7/2/2009 12:44:09 AM): called mea thief says hes gonna sue me then said im a thief them got me a birthday card and wrote me a reciept for fifty four cents

    I am still trying to find the IM where she threated to kiill herself/commit suicide. (She only said it once but she said it and I have to weed through hundreds of IMs to find it)

  130. christy is innocent in all this leave her alone

    real simple just leave her alone, she did nothing to hurt anyone.

  131. Don Lake: and Citizens For A Better Veterans Home wonders .....

    christy is innocent in all this leave her alone // Jun 21, 2010:
    “………. just leave her alone, she did nothing to hurt anyone ……….”

    [Lake: and then their is (so called) Doctor Donald J. Grundmann and my vision of the intermediate future: a bus ride to Kansas, blood and gore all over the church.]

    [Lake: You heard it here first. Having ‘known’ this guy (as a LAZY campaigner) in 2004, I can say with near by perspective, “He’s losing it —– it being sanity!”]

  132. christy is innocent in all this leave her alone

    in response to item 138….Gary has agreed that this should be taken down. He has agreed that it was a dangerous thing to say and could put me in harms way. Also, I never made multiple calls unless I was receiving multiple texts over and over. I emailed Ipr here and asked that it be taken down. Hopefully they will respond quickly and remove it. If not quickly, then hopefully someone else will see that it is dangerous and needs to be removed…and remove it…please I am begging here.Jake can you do that for me? Gary did agree to it.

  133. Gary Fincher

    “Nobody who is close to the situation believes Gary’s side of the story. This should tell everyone something.”

    Andy has this exactly backwards. Nobody who has followed this believes Andy’s story (what I have been saying is not a “story” but simply what happened.)

  134. Gary Fincher

    Christy is partially right. In my opinion, ALL of this should be taken down, with the exception of the very first post where I documented Andy’s unlibertarian assault and battery behavior. His denial lies that followed should be taken down as well.

    Can someone please take it all down so that Christy (and everyone except Andy) will be happy?

  135. Gary Fincher

    @132: Shut the fuck up ga/r/y filcher: Really, no story needed to rip off a friend who has bailing your sorry ass out for years?

    That really shows what a total lowlife piece of shit you really are that you would think so.

    Word is getting out about you motherfucker.”

    You stupid, idiotic moron. I said IF I didn’t want to pay him back…not THAT I wasn’t. Gawd, talk about people who can’t read the English language! Dedmon is right: losers! (albeit I suspect she is one too)

  136. Gary Fincher

    This is why Debmon is a loser too:

    “who makes big deal out of a simple fucing fight . ”

    That’s because, it wasn’t a FIGHT, you idiot, it was a violent attack by one party on the other. I eschew violence, like a LIBERTARIAN should. Why is Dedmon, aka libertariangirl, condoning violence now?? You should take the “libertarian” out of your moniker if you’re going to now champion first-strike aggression, and assert that the victim should just “take it” when he doesn’t friggin’ want to be around violent people (that’s why he’s a libertarian and not something else).

    Loser.

  137. Gary Fincher

    Andy has filled post 127 with total lies and bullshit, and I have lost all respect for him for it.

    Item by item:

    1) If Andy gave me Arenza’s phone number, so what? But I had already known Arenza was in WA, and contacted him directly. A batterer, I suppose, is naturally going to characterize his battery as a “tiff”, in order to make it look consensual when it wasn’t, but it is highly immoral. And Andy is immoral.

    2) There is nothing unethical about taking paper from one coordinator and working for another, if you consult and get the ok from the first coordinator, as I did. Also, it should be noted that the first coordinator wasn’t getting me paper – so Andy is now in the position of saying that I shouldn’t work (continuing to try to get paper from an unwilling supplier), which is antithetical to other things he is saying. This puts Andy, really, in the “STUPID” category. No paper = no way to work. Duh. Also, I DID pay Arenza back immediately, so Andy is goddamn liar for insinuating otherwise. In fact, I paid Arenza back the DAY I got my money. Plus $25! And Arenza was consulted about all this every step of the way and was ok with it!

    3) What a stupid piece of slime that Andy is! The REASON I didn’t get too much work done is because of Andy’s continued lies that I kept having to refute. Had Andy just been a man and owned up to his actions on day one, it would have been behind us and I would have gotten lots of work done. What a stupid, pompous and arrogant thing for him to say! It’s also completely untrue his characterization that I “took paper and wasn’t heard from again”. There was one single time when I missed a call and my voice mail was full, but the rest of the time I was in contact with the coordinator. In fact I even met him in front of the state capitol bldg and picked up MORE paper! Stop the lies, Andy!

    4) I have not said ANYTHING false about Andy. Andy knows the real stories and isn’t saying.

    5) I told Jake the truth and Jake’s response was that if I owed Andy money, then I should just take the physical abuse. In other words, Andy’s loaning me of money righfully givess him a license to assault and battery. I don’t respect Jake’s stand on that – think it’s unlibertarian. I didn’t try to turn anyone against anyone – just thought Jake might be served if he knew the truth about Andy. Turns out that Jake has no regard for truth or libertarianism, but there’s nothing I can do beyond what I did. I happen to think – in light of Jake’s true character as a troublemaker coming out – that he was actually fairly run out of Arizona. I wouldn’t want him around causing trouble either! Bottom line: I believe my credible Arizona LP officials when they say Jake was a troublemaker during his time there.

    6) Nice try, Andy. First-strike aggression is what libertarianism is all about combatting, no matter who perpetrates it. And libertarianism is part of the political scene, ergo it’s relevant. If it can post unlibertarian acts by Obama, it can post unlibertarian acts by someone claiming to be a libertarian. Nice try.

    Andy is also full of shit when he says that anyone thinks I am in the wrong. How can I be in the wrong by BEING hit? I mean, WTF? I imagine everyone realizes Andy is in the wrong, since he was the utilizer of first-strike aggression. Every one of my friends who aren’t in common with Andy that I relate the episode to thinks that Andy is COMPLETELY 100% in the wrong.

    Acting like aggression has anything to do with money owed is what is being off-topic. One has nothing to do with the other. How the hell is sonmeone who wants to be surrounded by peaceful people rather than violent people, a “crybaby”?? A crybaby would be someone who doesn’t man up to their actions and says a bunch of false, whiny things to weasel out of responsibility. When Dedmon says that, she’s showing herself to be ignorant of libertarian principles. I have a right not to be agressed upon and not have my body used as a punching bag.

  138. Gary Fincher

    Remember to keep in mind, people, that this isn’t abou me: it’s about Andy Jacobs and his aggressive, unlibertarian behavior and what consequences he should face for first-strike aggression.

  139. Gary Fincher

    MORE lies, although this time, there’s a twist:

    Andy said: “Gary brought up something about me having left a nasty message to Paul, but he did NOT tell the full story.

    Here’s what REALLY happened. Gary had called me up and told me that Paul wanted to cut me out of working somewhere. I was angry about this because I thought Paul was a friend and I had hooked him up with jobs before this, so I felt as though Paul had betrayed me. So I did in fact leave an angry message for him, HOWEVER, I spoke to Paul after this and Paul explained the situation to me and it turned out that Paul was NOT trying to cut me out of working, so I then APOLOGIZED to Paul for the angry message and that was the end of it. ”

    Nope, Andy, what REALLY happened is that Paul & I were sitting having breakfast at the TA truck stop in Asheville, NC, and, after learning of Andy’s 30th false-alarm promise to come down to NC, Paul said to me, “I don’t think I WANT him down now.” Next time I talked to Andy, I related to him verbatim what Paul had said. That’s when Andy went out of control with rage and sent that message to Paul. Paul, however, felt like he had to lie to Andy and say that he didn’t say that (when he in fact did) and )Paul actually confided in ME that he lied to Andy to get him to calm down. That, of course, made ME look like a liar, as I’d told Andy that Paul said it.

    Later, I’d actually informed Andy that Paul told me that he lied to him to calm him down, but, as recent developments show, Andy has little regard for the truth, so it went in one ear and out the other.

    Let’s keep in mind that this is the SAME Andy Jacobs who has berated me over and over for refusing to LIE.

  140. Black Crow

    So will Free & Equal / Christina Tobin / Sean Haugh continue to pat themselves on the back here now that a judge has thrown out the GPTX petition…because Free & Equal used an ILLEGAL corporate contribution to pay for it? Let’s hear you crow now…

  141. Andy Finally Caught in His Lies!

    Andy finally fucked up THIS time with his lies:

    “By the way, Gary’s comments about the mattress and the chair at the motel are ridiculous. That mattress did in fact slide rather easily and it had a plastic cover and there was nothing on the bed to stop it from sliding.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDxTui0rqtI

    Speechless much now, Andy?

  142. christy is innocent in all this leave her alone

    this is the biggest bullshit steam of posts I think it should all be taken down. I am sick of being harrassed and sick of having my rapists name posted on here. My personal business in the manners such as those are none of anyones business. I could not press charges in the states as it happened in mexico. please remove it!

  143. christy is innocent in all this leave her alone

    I think the post from gary and the post from me should be ample reason enough to take them down. IPR said they would if gary requested it and he did, as do I. So if Gary and my posts could be remove that would be just fabulous! Thanks IPR

  144. boner: The little engine that couldn't

    Gary Fincher is flacid. He is impotent. No go on the boner. He can not get a boner if his life depended on it. No really, he hasnt had one since just before his wife (the one that was dumping him) died. That was 2002. He can not get it up. He has a little wee wee that can never rise to the occasion. This is why he fanatsizes about other peoples lives. He does not have one of his own. Have you no shame……You expect them all to laugh it off…Laugh now buddy…With no hope of getting a rise out of you…lol. and finally some of your shit in the wind.. I bid you adieu …..

  145. Fer Goshsakes.... Fruitcake Gary Fincher Grossly Flaccid, Greatly Fake, Got Floppy Groin?

    Go fish!

  146. floppy much?

    that is crazyiness. He is also still harassing me and now it has extended to my family. I am thinking of getting a restraining order.

  147. Andy should shut up and pay the damages

    GARY: For some reason, Andy keeps rearing his ugly head with his crap, which I’ve been trying to (somehow) put behind me. For the most part, I’ve ignored the last comments that have trickled in, but it’s getting impossible to ignore.

    The latest crap from him has been impossible to ignore, however. My answer to his latest question SHOULD – finally – put to rest the idea that Andy has ANY credibility at all, and, hopefully, get him to just shut the fuck up. Lies are bad enough, but lies that just won’t die are just irritating as shit.

    So here goes…

    Andy – through someone by the initials of D.B. – asks:

    “What, exactly, are the damages Gary suffered (here he actually does insinuate that he indeed illegally assaulted & battered me)?”

    My answer: Why is Andy asking this question? Remember, here is a guy who REF– USED to attend the court proceedings where he would presumably FIND OUT the answer to this question, if it is a serious question. If someone REALLY wants to know what, if any, the damages are, SEEMS TO ME they would attend the court proceedings they were invited to and, gee, FIND OUT FOR THEMSELVES! Since Andy was TOO CHICKENSHIT to attend the court proceedings that ACTUALLY DEALT WITH THIS VERY QUESTION OF HIS, he has no business asking the question. So since he was not MAN ENOUGH to just walk into the courthouse to check it out for himself, he should NOW BE MAN ENOUGH to accept the consequences for his willful failure to act and pipe up for the damages that are demanded of him that he inflicted.

    Andy has no right at this point to contest any damages; he already had that chance and blew it.

  148. Google Andy Jacobs Petitioner

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=andy+jacobs+petitioner&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

    top page results include

    Petitioner Andy Jacobs commits assault and battery.

    “Gary Fincher as a petitioner is worth his weight in gold”

    Videos for andy jacobs petitioner

    Petitioner Andy Jacobs commits assault and battery

    YouTube – libertariancrusader’s Channel?
    Petitioner Andy Jacobs commits assault and battery. And then lies about it to cover it up. libertariancrusader uploaded a new video (1 month ago) …

    You can find similar results on the first page of searching for Andy Jacobs Libertarian.

  149. Google Gary Fincher

    Among the top page results for Gary Fincher Petitioner:

    Gary Fincher, a very strong producer, with great validity, ..

    Gary Fincher is a petitioning legend….

    “Gary Fincher as a petitioner is worth his weight in gold”

    “Gary Fincher is an excellent petitioner. …

    And from front page searches for Gary Fincher Libertarian:

    What is being said about Gary Fincher: “The Libertarian Party should get down on its knees and thank you.” – Current Libertarian Party national chairman …

    YouTube – Sweet vindication – finally!
    Gary Fincher belateedly receives $679 in pay for voter registratiosn in NM … queue Registering Libertarian in New Mexicoby libertariancrusader131 views …

    Ballot Access News » Blog Archive » Veteran Libertarian Petitioner …
    Apr 30, 2010 … “Gary L. Fincher Says: April 30th, 2010 at 8:42 pm. This is nothing. Four years ago, I collected 530 signatures for the Libertarian Party …

    Gary Fincher is a petitioning legend….

  150. Andy

    I can’t believe this crazy person is still posting his off topic nonsense (which NOBODY here gives a rat’s ass about).

    He just recently spread lies about Darryl Bonner. I helped clear Darryl’s name because I KNEW that his story about Darryl was false. Gary had told me months ago that he was going to spread this story about Darryl. I asked Gary if there was an evidence to back it up and he could not produce any. I said that he shouldn’t spread the story unless he can back it up. He said that he didn’t care if he could back it up and that he was going to spread it anyway which he did recently. Gary claimed that Darryl had forged petition signatures in Maryland on an LP drive back in the ’90s. He claimed that Lorenzo said this, yet when I talked to Lorenzo he said nothing of the sort. In fact, in 2006 in Maryland Darryl, myself, and the other petitioners who worked there that year (note that Gary was NOT there) had dinner with Lorenzo, his wife, another guy from the Maryland LP, and then National Chairman Bill Redpath. Lorenzo paid for the drinks, including Darryl Bonner’s drink. I don’t think that Lorenzo would have bought Darryl a drink, much less ate dinner with him, had he really forged signatures there back in the ’90s. Bill Redpath paid for the food and I don’t think that he’d have paid for Darryl’s meal if anyone from Maryland had told him that Darryl forged signatures there in the ’90s.

    I talked to several people in the Maryland LP and not one person ever said that Darryl ever forged any signatures there. The worst thing against Darryl in Maryland that on one petition drive he got bad validity, 43%. Darryl said that his validity would have been higher if not for the fact that the Maryland LP stuck him in the lowest income neighborhood in Baltimore even though they knew that he did not have a car. Getting bad validity is not necessarily the same thing as forgery. Nobody who pointed out Darryl’s bad validity on that occassion ever used the word forgery. Darryl has worked Maryland several times and I know that in 2006 the entire crew that worked there had good validity that year (including Darryl). As a group I was told by Bob Johnston of the Maryland LP that we had 84% validity. Bob Johnston also said that Darryl was welcome to come back to Maryland.

    I told Darryl the REAL story about what happened with Gary and this is why Gary is popping back up here.

    Gary incurred ZERO damages. NOTHING. ZIP. NADA.

    There are eyewitnesses who can attest to the fact that Gary incurred ZERO damages.

    As far as a court hearing goes, I NEVER recieved a summons. I was in the same place for 3 weeks after this incident took place. The police NEVER came out because there was NOTHING to investigate. I’ve had police run my ID since this and no warrants came up.

    Gary has got NOTHING. NOBODY believes him. Everyone is taking my side because Gary’s story has more holes in it than a loaf of Swiss Cheese.

    I’ve already gone through the REAL story. The TRUTH of the matter is that Gary is a UNGRATEFUL DRAMA QUEEN who is engaging in GROSS exaggeration and outright distortions as an EXC– USE for not paying me back money that he owes me.

    I bailed Gary out on multiple occassions. He owes me several thousand dollars. He is probably the MOST UNGRATEFUL human being on the planet. I balied him out when he was stuck in Costa Rica. I bailed him out when his car was stuck in a repair shop in Pennsylvania. I bailed him out when he was stuck in Ohio with a broken down car and little money while he was recovering from a foot sore. I fronted money for his half of motel expenses in Arizona (as well as some other expenses). I also fronted expenses for him in California and Missouri. He PROMISED he was going to pay me back for all of this stuff, WITH INTEREST (I have this in writing from him), and he has not done it.

    Gary has no honor. I would highly suggest that NOBODY ever loan or front him any money.

  151. A Casual Observer

    The petitioners are the feedback arm of the Libertarian Party. Since we are trying to avoid democide (first goal of all libertarians –if they thought about it–, and –ineffectively– of all Democrats, and –ineffectively–of all Republicans) we should listen to our own body’s feedback. If we don’t think our feedback arm is adequate, then we should replace it.

    But, if we replace it, we should give it a trial, and let the facts come out. Aspects of a fair trial: a jury of one’s randomly-selected peers. Such a jury might contain some excremental characters, such as a Dondero. But unless all other 11 agree with Dondero, his “guilty” vote does not carry the day. …As it should be.

    This would encourage less insanity from the loudmouthed whiners and moochers (for their not wanting an actual trial by objective people). Fincher’s enthusiasm for a trial by the State reveals the fact that he trusts a hand-picked jury chosen by the judge in welfare-state California, more than he trusts libertarians who might have higher moral standards. Also, he trusts Andy not to show up, and he trusts his ability to make people who don’t know him pity him.

    And, barring willing malfeasance, given a trial by jury, the behavior of any errant petitioners should always be voluntarily corrected. If Gary was a jerk in the past, we have to ask: could a no-nonsense attitude from the chairman of the LP correct this imbalance? In a careful analysis of the facts, Andy Jacobs appears to be correct. But had I not gathered facts about his performance in the field, I would not believe this, because he comes off badly here. (The first step in doing this is verifying how much money he loaned/gave to Gary. Without doing this, how could anyone have an opinion on the matter?) The same qualities that allow him to do work that noone else on this board –other than other petitioners– wishes to do, might make him a less skilled writer. The same is true of Jake Witmer, Paulie Cannoli, and Eric Dondero himself (although Eric has real problems with telling the truth –even in the muddled way that he understands it).

    Now then, the control arm of the petitioners is their leadership. Until the 2006 fraud, Kohlhaas was a rather good leader. Unimaginitive, but honest. A personal illness in 2006 as well as the realization that his movement had largely abandoned him (and many other petitioners) pressured him into committing fraud, and that’s a shame, but it’s also useful information.

    The largest part of the problem here is that people who don’t care to petition are the same people who don’t really care to win freedom. Therefore, they don’t care about petitioners who might actually be capable of deeper-level organizing than the ballot access they are typically used for. After all, evidence indicates that the walking of precincts is necessary, as is ballot access to electoral success. Folks at the National LP: Put those two together!!!! Evidence also indicates that the most likely alternative to elections is direct violence (delayed and avoidable violence is the substitute for immediate, direct, and unavoidable violence). In many ways, delayed violence is terrible: it falsely conveys to many ignorant voters that they are free (simply because they remove themselves from the path of the tyranny and are thus not personally targeted for violence, and their feedback mechanisms are inadequate to perceive the plight of others), which then leads to a greater (eventual) delayed violence.

    But still, delayed violence caused by elections is preferable to immediate, direct violence, because, in theory (and practice!!), it can be avoided.

    First of all, because the immediate and direct violence is uncontrollable.

    So, I urge the Libertarian Party to use its petitioner arm more wisely. Don’t abuse them. Give them recourse to a trial amongst other libertarians for personal disputes, as well as a chain of command. Measure what they do, and listen to their suggestions about what they SHOULD do (it does no good to listen to them if you don’t ever implement what they suggest, or to blame them for failing on suicide missions).

    In 2008, Sean Haugh ran in 20 different directions at once, acting as Scott Kohlhaas’s revenge arm. His primary “accomplishment” was blacklisting several petitioners, such as Gary Fincher. Fincher –at that time– was a fine petitioner. He seems to go off the deep end here, as caused by his illness (one very sad repeating phenomenon: The losers in the LP are too proud to demand welfare, so they become moochers. I say sad because these are the people who are your public face. Don’t push them towards being Dana Rohrabacher, or Eric Dondero. They have a very useful purpose in this life: the prevention of massive delayed violence).

    Moreover, people like libertarian girl are not willing to petition, but love to criticize. As such, I’d take anything she says with a grain of salt. See how dismissive she is to both sides of any argument? She clearly gets off on insulting people, and cares nothing for the meat of the issue. She is willing to criticize all day long, but she is not willing to spend a full election cycle slinging a clipboard. Moreover, let’s say she was: even if she was perfect, and great at outreach, the LP would still need other petitioners to complete the task. So what ultimate goal do her comments here have? To alienate the already alienated?

    A viable strategy can be put together with libertarian petitioners that does not rely on “assumed future rapid growth” or any other unknown factor. Simply the existing rates with which people tend to approve of the LP when given a sympathetic and knowledgeable explanation is given to them, is enough for us to begin winning elections. …We just need to start fighting smart.

    Yet, although this is the case, the LP repeatedly engages in chaotic, unfair, random, illogical, or perverse hiring practices. It fails to notice the necessity for establishing a truth finding protocol. Even most good companies have such a protocol.

    Here are a few things for the LP leadership to look for in “petitioner conflict resolution”:
    1) Does the petitioner know the first thing about libertarianism? (If not, then he probably shouldn’t be representing us. If not, then he’s probably a mercenary, and probably not worth promoting over a seasoned LP petitioner. If so, he also probably doesn’t have the same logical standards, so perhaps his criticism of the LP member who trained him is non-objective. —ie: maybe he’s mad that he didn’t get free healthcare when he signed up to be a petitioner, etc…)
    2) Can they do the job? Did they ever successfully do the job? Do they understand what the job entails?
    3) What were their alleged wrongs? Are they “one time” wrongs that are admitted? Or are they things the petitioner doesn’t actually believe to be wrong (systemic wrongs that will recur)?

    The gross mismanagement of the 2008 petition drives by Haugh is a verifiable fact, available for anyone who digs for the truth. I am amazed that noone else on this board –other than the petitioners in question– has done enough research to figure this out.

    At some point in this system, we have to admit: the LP is either infiltrated (in order to be pointed in the wrong direction), or it doesn’t care to win. Or, perhaps a bit of both. After all, Dondero doesn’t mind being called a Republican. In fact, he thinks the Republican Party should beat libertarian candidates that are anti-war (ie: most of them).

    Should such a pink flapping dick be allowed to represent the LP in public? I mean, by his own admission, he’s out there suggesting that Libertarians go down to defeat by warhawk “war on terror” Republicans who supported the PATRIOT Act, WHILE he’s circulating our petitions. He gets high marks from Sean Haugh simply because he made Sean Haugh money, and delivered an even number of signatures per day for lower pay than was demanded by Andy Jacobs and Mark Pickens (who had a better idea of what Haugh’s override was).

    I am ashamed at the behavior of the LP in the 2008 petition drive. While they could have taken advantage of the biggest leap possible on the coattails of Ron Paul, they were too busy driving their core activists out of the LP, and shoveleing overrides into their pockets.

    Some of the list recommended above by an anonymous Eric Dondero, are good people. Al Anders, for instance, is a solid petitioner, who understands libertarian principles fairly well. Al also knows quite well how distorted some of the criticisms of fellow petitioners can be when money is involved. Daryl Bonner is a solid petitioner who understands libertarian principles less well, or at least agrees with them less. Pat Kelly isn’t even mentioned, although he’s been a good petitioner in the past, and is a solid libertarian.

    But did Sean Haugh ever gather a single signature? No. This was a monster of expediency made by Bill Redpath. Redpath expected an executive director of a Libertarian Party who had succeded in ballot access once to be a good “coordinator”. (That one success was due to Haugh hiring Daryl Bonner, an admitted Democrat, to do the entire petition drive in NC.) Once promoted to the position, it took many screwups for Redpath to finally fire Haugh, because Redpath really likes to work with people instead of fire them.

    But a glaring problem from the beginning was the fact that there is no fact-finding mechanism in place for petition drives. And it’s hard for people who don’t understand the process to think objectively about it.

    This is a growing pain: the LP will either evolve such a method, or it will become extinct.

    I’m hoping for the former.

  152. paulie

    ACO 168, Jeebus…

    I just emailed you to check out the funny video at 167, the rant was way over the top.

    If you are going to communicate effectively, you need to make your comments way shorter.

    I know mine are sometimes too long as well, but at least I try to control myself.

    You know how to bitesize it down when you petition. Same rule here.

    You also know how to go off on long and mostly pointless conversations with people when you petition. The vast majority of times, it is a waste of time and costs you money.

    Same principle here. The people in the LP, movement, and at IPR are not that different from the general public, no matter what you may wish that they were.

    And, yes, I should follow my own advice more.

    But I’ll end it now, and not give in to the temptation to address anything specific you said, because that would also be very counterproductive.

  153. Gary

    Andy is still spewing his lies, and bullshit denials on here. Why can’t he just be a man and admit what he has done? Now I understand that he has gotten arrested and is spewing lies about his arrest in Maryland! He claims he got arrested when trying to film the officers but anyone who knows Andy and his temper (and have been with him when he petitions and is told to leave a location) knows that he gets HOPPING mad and yells and screams, followed by throwing fists. There is no doubt in my mind that he threw punches at the cops when they said something he didn’t like (as in, “I’m going to have to ask you to leave”) and obviously, the law of averages is going to catch up with him when he practices that kind of violence and he eventually gets arrested (like has happened now). That’s what happens when you get violent, Andy. You deserve this arrest – as you got by with it when you got violent with me. Karma works! Poetic justice! Yes!!

    Andy: He just recently spread lies about Darryl Bonner. I helped clear Darryl’s name because I KNEW that his story about Darryl was false.

    This is a lie that Andy is spreading right here. I NEVER spread any lies about Darryl Bonner; in fact, I don’t tell lies like this the way Andy does.

    Andy: Gary had told me months ago that he was going to spread this story about Darryl.

    This is a bald-faced lie. I never made up any story about Darryl.

    Andy: I asked Gary if there was an evidence to back it up and he could not produce any.

    Again, another lie. I told Andy about a situation in Maryland in 1995 in which Darryl was peripherally involved, but Andy TWISTS the account into something of his own choosing. Typical dishonest Andy style.

    Andy: I said that he shouldn’t spread the story unless he can back it up. He said that he didn’t care if he could back it up and that he was going to spread it anyway which he did recently.

    OMG anyone who knows me can tell that this is a vicious lie about me, and something that could NEVER come out of my mouth. Andy Jacobs is just a totally dishonest person, and that’s all there is to it.

    Andy: Gary claimed that Darryl had forged petition signatures in Maryland on an LP drive back in the ’90s. He claimed that Lorenzo said this, yet when I talked to Lorenzo he said nothing of the sort.

    This is a lie and a twisting of the story. I told Andy something in confidence (something I can’t repeat here because of the sensitive nature of it) involving Lorenzo, Darryl, David Morris and myself, and Andy, sure enough, twists it around to resemble nothing like it was originally told. (Anyone who wishes to know the TRUE account can find out by calling me at 207 450 5117; I can’t post it here publicly.)

    I NEVER said that I would make up a story that Darryl forged signatures. Lorenzo claimed that SOMEBODY on the drive forged some signatures, and he at first mistakenly thought that that person was me. The other circulator on the drive was Darryl Bonner. I NEVER told Lorenzo who I thought forged the signatures, let alone used Darryl’s name. Andy is simply making a lie about me to look bad.

    Andy: I told Darryl the REAL story about what happened with Gary and this is why Gary is popping back up here.

    Nope, Andy told Darryl (and everyone else who will listen, which is dwindling in number as they are beginning to catch on) a lie; however, Darryl understands that I am telling the truth, and that Andy is lying.

    Andy: Gary incurred ZERO damages. NOTHING. ZIP. NADA.

    This is a lie, and the proof is that Andy ducked the court hearing where damages ostensibly would be calculated.

    Andy: There are eyewitnesses who can attest to the fact that Gary incurred ZERO damages.

    This is a lie too. The only eyewitnesses on the scene were the motel manager who Andy TOLD TO GO AWAY! Yes, can you believe it? Andy told the only eyewitness to go away! Why? Because the eyewitness to the episode could vouch for ME that Andy was engaged in battery on me.

    Andy: As far as a court hearing goes, I NEVER recieved a summons.

    This is a lie, as I actually SAW a copy of the summons made out for Andy! The court records indicate and prove that Andy DID NOT SHOW.

    Andy: I was in the same place for 3 weeks after this incident took place. The police NEVER came out because there was NOTHING to investigate.

    Wrong. If Andy never met up with the police (he has now – thanks to Karma) it’s only because HE evaded them successfully. There was indeed a court hearing and summons. Andy is full of shit.

    Andy: I’ve had police run my ID since this and no warrants came up.

    No one is talking about a “warrant” but a SUMMONS and a COURT DATE. Warrants don’t always follow summons.

    Andy: Gary has got NOTHING. NOBODY believes him.

    This is laughable. Nobody believes Andy. Everyone I relate this to, EVERYONE believes me, and NO ONE believes Andy. Steve Boone agrees with me. Edee Baggett agrees with me. Countless other people do too. However, it should be noted that the truth remains the same no matter how many people “believe” what. The truth is not a popularity contest, after all.

    Andy: Everyone is taking my side because . Gary’s story has more holes in it than a loaf of Swiss Cheese.

    Nope, no one with any sense is taking Andy’s “side” because Andy is full of LIES. I have YET to hear any sane person say that they think Andy is right to pummel me just because of a personal financial loan.

    Andy: I’ve already gone through the REAL story. The TRUTH of the matter is that Gary is a UNGRATEFUL DRAMA QUEEN

    LMAO. Andy is the DRAMA QUEEN – who flies off the handle and starts HITTING people when they say or do things he doesn’t like! He recently found out that POLICE will not always take kindly to this kind of behavior, and yes, he’ll find himself arrested for getting that way with cops!

    Andy: who is engaging in GROSS exaggeration and outright distortions as an EXC– USE for not paying me back money that he owes me.

    This is twisting it around exactly opposite. The EXC– USE is a personal loan but it is on the part of the CREDITOR of the loan, not the debtor. History is FULL OF accounts of people attacking people who they feel owe them money and not repaying it fast enough.

    A couple of years ago, when Scott Kohlhaas owed Andy some money for a petition drive in Nebraska, Andy emailed me a copy of a cartoon in which a creditor character commenced to BEAT THE CRAP OUT of a debtor character. The email was entitled “How we can get our money” (I was also owed money by Scott) and Andy laughed about it. That’s right – Andy laughed about the idea of breaking Scott’s legs and beating him to a bloody pulp just because Scott owed Andy money. That’s how Andy looks at these things. I can produce the original email to anyone who wishes me to: just send an inquiry to: garyfincher@yahoo.com and I’ll be happy to forward it. He really did send it; it really exists.

    Andy: I bailed Gary out on multiple occassions. He owes me several thousand dollars. He is probably the MOST UNGRATEFUL human being on the planet.

    Here Andy is making a veiled attempt at saying that if someone has loaned you money, it’s ok to attack them violently (see above email Andy sent out).

    Andy: Gary has no honor. I would highly suggest that NOBODY ever loan or front him any money.

    That’s funny – because it’s ANDY who has no honor. Hmmm, let’s see…attacking someone and then lying about it in a denial and then twisting it to try to say that your victim attacked you instead? Sounds to me like complete lack of honor.

    Andy has already been caught in a couple of lies, as his story has partially unreavled. That’s what happens when you spin a lie – you can’t hold it up when it begins to get shot full of holes, and you go down with the ship. (See above, where he lied about the mattress having a plastic cover and it got exposed.)

  154. Gary

    @casual observer:

    “Fincher’s enthusiasm for a trial by the State reveals the fact that he trusts a hand-picked jury chosen by the judge in welfare-state California, more than he trusts libertarians who might have higher moral standards.”

    I believe it was Mr. Alex Peak who wrote an essay pointing out that anyone who initiates force or fraud on a victim – the way that Andy did on me – is acting like a State. Thus it is Andy, not me, who initially chose to take on the role of the State. I agree with Mr. Peak: Andy was essentially a State when he initiated force and fraud against me.

    Which reminds me, @so-called libertariangirl, scrolling way above, you cannot call yourself a libertarian if you believe that one person has the right to strike another person violently, in first-strike aggression fashion, such a label would be ridiculous. “Libertariangirl” should remove the label “libertarian” from her moniker and just call herself “girl” from now on: she has chosen to side with a State (Andy). That makes her a Statist. Yep, now THAT’S what’s “pathetic”!

    “Also, he trusts Andy not to show up, and he trusts his ability to make people who don’t know him pity him.”

    Nope, I trusted Andy to actually SHOW UP; how can you get it totally backwards? Of course, that trust was misplaced. And how is it asking for pity to ask people to stick to their libertarian guns? First-strike aggression is decidedly unlibertarian. Casual observer is obviously not serious about any libertarian philosophy.

    “And, barring willing malfeasance, given a trial by jury, the behavior of any errant petitioners should always be voluntarily corrected”

    Andy was given a chance to voluntarily correct his behavior, and chose instead to deny and counter-accuse. He made his choices and they were bad ones.

    “If Gary was a jerk in the past,”

    Does blowing the whistle on a professed libertarian for engaging in aggression constitute being a “jerk”? How do you figure?

    “In a careful analysis of the facts, Andy Jacobs appears to be correct.”

    WTF? Correct on WHAT? It is not correct for a libertarian to engage in initiation of force (and then fraud, by lying about it). Not unless you’re a Statist and believe in postive rights rather than negative rights. From a libertarian perspective, Andy is patently NOT correct. Aggression is NOT correct behavior. Also, his lies have been exposed (mattress for one).

    “But had I not gathered facts about his performance in the field, I would not believe this, because he comes off badly here. ”

    Andy comes off badly because he is LYING.

    “(The first step in doing this is verifying how much money he loaned/gave to Gary. Without doing this, how could anyone have an opinion on the matter?)”

    The amount of money has, or should have, no bearing on the question of whether or not it is ok to physically attack a debtor over a debt. This is fallacious libertarian thinking. The money should never have been a part of this, and I do not appreciate being attacked over money.

    “The same qualities that allow him to do work that noone else on this board –other than other petitioners– wishes to do, might make him a less skilled writer. The same is true of Jake Witmer, Paulie Cannoli, and Eric Dondero himself (although Eric has real problems with telling the truth –even in the muddled way that he understands it).”

    Petitioning doesn’t make one a “less skilled writer” in and of itself. But if Dondero has “problems with the truth”, surely Andy Jacobs has MORE problems with the truth. Andy Jacobs – the same one who yells and derides people for telling the truth to coordinators, as he has done in the past to me!

    “violence). In many ways, delayed violence is terrible: it falsely conveys to many ignorant voters

    Yes, that’s what Andy stands for – violence. Between 2004 and 2010, I never witnessed him get violent on a person, but apparently he was saving it for 2010, and boy, did he ever unveil that part of his character. Three times in a four-day period. That is making a statement.

    “But still, delayed violence caused by elections is preferable to immediate, direct violence, because, in theory (and practice!!), it can be avoided.”

    Andy’s violence was the latter, not the former.

    “First of all, because the immediate and direct violence is uncontrollable.”

    LOL, yes, that describes Andy Jacobs to a tee.

    “Fincher –at that time– was a fine petitioner.”

    LOL WTF…I just got 92% and 94% validity on my last two turn ins (December 2010) so does that answer the question of am I STILL a “fine petitioner”?

    ” He seems to go off the deep end here, as caused by his illness”

    Wow – if accurately reporting a violent attack, stemming from a good faith belief that libertarianism naturally involves a prohibition of such first-strike attacks based on a personal loan is ” going off the deep end” and “an illness”, then drug me up – cuz I’m sick!!

    On the other hand, a LOT of honest libertarians feel that it’s NOT libertarian or acceptable to beat somebody up over money…and would think that those who DO think it’s ok are the ones going off the deep end and have an illness. (I’m pretty sure that ‘Casual Obserer’ actually has such an illness.)

    “Moreover, people like libertarian girl are not willing to petition, but love to criticize. As such, I’d take anything she says with a grain of salt.”

    A broken clock is right twice a day, so Casual Observer has got THIS one right. She is NOT a libertarian, not ideologically, anyway.

    “Here are a few things for the LP leadership to look for in “petitioner conflict resolution”:
    1) Does the petitioner know the first thing about libertarianism? (If not, then he probably shouldn’t be representing us.”

    This describes Andy Jacobs. First he fails to recognize that freedom means the freedom to immigrate and emigrate, and next, he fails to see that it’s not libertarian to attack someone physically over money owed.

    “3) What were their alleged wrongs? Are they “one time” wrongs that are admitted? Or are they things the petitioner doesn’t actually believe to be wrong (systemic wrongs that will recur)?”

    Andy doesn’t recognize what he does as wrong, nor will he admit them.

  155. Gary

    @#158: “Gary Fincher is flacid. He is impotent. No go on the boner. He can not get a boner if his life depended on it. No really, he hasnt had one since just before his wife (the one that was dumping him) died. That was 2002. He can not get it up. He has a little wee wee that can never rise to the occasion. This is why he fanatsizes about other peoples lives. He does not have one of his own. Have you no shame……You expect them all to laugh it off…Laugh now buddy…With no hope of getting a rise out of you…lol. and finally some of your shit in the wind.. I bid you adieu …..”

    lol THIS is certainly not true!

    And even so, what business does it have being on a political blog, or even a petitioning blog? And what bearing does it have on whether or not someone is a libertarian if they physically attack someone over money? What does it have to do with why I was attacked?

    Whatever chickenshit coward who posted this without using their name doesn’t like to stay on topic, let alone know any kind of decency.

  156. Gary

    What the hay…here it is (Andy’s position going further into the hole here):

    Subject: How we can get our money

    From: petition guy [thatpetitionguy@yahoo.com]

    To: garyfincher@yahoo.com; circus@g-mail.com; MarkPickens@hotmail.com; thatpetitionguy@yahoo.com

    Just in case the previous link didn’t work.

    Here’s something we could do to get our money. Some petitioners would have already done this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPEYIHG7w2c

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