[Thread for discussion on petitioners] #2

This post is being created in order to permit the ongoing debate over petitioning controversies to continue uncensored without mucking up unrelated topic threads. Please move all such discussion here. You can also still use the original thread for discussion on petitioners, but the comment thread there has gotten long, so we are putting up a new one.

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144 thoughts on “[Thread for discussion on petitioners] #2

  1. paulie Post author

    Originally posted by Andy at https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2011/01/libertarian-response-to-state-of-the-union-and-republicans/ . Move all discussions on this topic to this thread, they are not welcome in that one or other unrelated threads.

    Andy // Jan 27, 2011 at 12:49 am

    ?Eric Dondero // Jan 26, 2011 at 8:01 pm

    Whoa, Andy, did I just hear you say that you and Paulie are committing civil disobedience in those States that require witnesses, by not using witnesses.?

    Go back and read what I said. I said that ?laws? banning out-of-state petition circulators are UNCONSTITUTIONAL and have been thrown out in multiple states. There a few states left that have them where they have not been challeged yet but they ought to be challenged in those states and if somebody actually challenged them they?d be thrown out in those states as well.

    ?Oh my gosh. Dude, you just went on record in a public forum.?

    I seem to recall you going on record in a public forum admitting that you don?t wear seat belts and that you have sex with prostitutes. Oh my gosh, both of those things are illegal!

    I, on the other hand, have not said that I did or did not do anything.

    ?This post will be archived.?

    Archive whatever you want. All I said is that I?ve worked in states that have out-of-state petitioner bans (and I know you have as well). How do you know that I didn?t have a witness or jump through all the hoops?

    ?You do realize that anyone from that certain ?Moose-running northeastern State,? including someone from the Secretary of State?s office could be reading this.?

    Let them read. I?ve got nothing to hide.

    ?And I also understant that that particular ?boozed up person? has had similar problems with the SOS office and potential allegations of election fraud in the past.?

    I don?t know which ?boozed up person? you are talking about, nor do I know anything about the problems of which you are alledging, but what I do know is that our witnesses did a good job.

    I don?t know what you think you saw, but I?d suggest that it sounds like you need to get stronger perscription glasses. There were a lot of people at that fair and we had our witness within eye shot. Perhaps you didn?t see them when they were sitting on that rock across the street or standing in the woods behind us, or perhaps you thought that they were just part of the crowd passing by and you didn?t not realize that they were with us.

    I?d also like to point out that we arrived in Maine in August. If a person is in any state in the country for at least 30 days they can be considered a resident of that state. This event you are talking about happened in October. So we had already been in Maine more than long enough to NOT need a witness. I brought this up to the Maine petition coordinator and they acknowledged that I was correct but still wanted me to have a witness out of fear. So I still worked with a witness at that point even though it was not necessary. Later in the course of the drive the petition coordinator finally said I could work without a witness, however, this could have most definitely been done after I?d been in the state for 30 days.

    Speaking of which, I happened to see Eric Dondero petitioning in Maine. I saw him at that fair and I also saw him at a couple of other locations. He had a witness, however, was the witness actually standing right next to him watching 100% every signature as it happened? Well, I?m not going to anwser that.

  2. paulie Post author

    Originally posted by Andy on that same thread (the quoted part is Dondero):

    “I seriously doubt that at the time you and Andy were collecting signatures at that event, Andy had already registered to vote.”

    We did have a witness that day (even though it was not necessary because we’d already been in the state for more than 30 days at that point and we can document this fact).

    Also, it should be pointed out that the courts have already ruled that one does not have to be a registered voter in order to gather signatures on petitions.

    Hmmm, I wonder if Eric’s witness was actually watching 100% of the time for every signature that Eric got. I mean, like they never turned their back even once or had their view obstructed for a few moments or took a bathroom or food break or something like that….

  3. paulie Post author

    Also from Andy, same thread:

    Since we are on this topic, I’m going to bring up why we ended up in Maine in the first place.

    A certain individual whose name begins with the letter “B” (I don’t think that Dondero knows this individual) told us that he had this job happening in Maine where we could make good money. This was NOT the gambling initiative and it was not even a petition. We knew that the gambling initiative was happening in Maine but neither of us were interested in working on it because it wasn’t paying very much. This individual lured us into Maine to work on this project and then ended up flaking out and disappearing. We sat in Maine for several days wondering what in the heck happened to this person. Since we were already in the state and since the other person had flaked out on us we decided to work on the gambling petition. It ended up sucking for several reasons (primarily because the pay was too low, but there were other reasons on top of this).

    Due to it sucking, Paul left the state before I did. In fact, he left a few days after the fair mentioned above. I remained in Maine a few more weeks after this. A second gambling petition came out and the money improved when we had two petitions, and I did well the last week that we had the two petitions, but overall, it still wasn’t what I’d call good.

    Also, I KNOW damn well that we (including the witnesses) went to great lengths to get lots of good signatures and I KNOW that we did this.

  4. paulie Post author

    Also from Andy, same thread:

    “Eric Dondero // Jan 26, 2011 at 8:04 pm

    Paulie, Andy, go ahead and censor my posts. Feel free. Go right ahead.

    I have many, many other websites that I am a contributor too, and if I want, I could gladly spill the beans about y’all’s “questionable signature gathering” activities to other outlets.

    But censoring me, you’re just pissing me off even more.

    You fascist bastards.”

    I’m NOT censoring anybody. I’ve got nothing to do with running this site.

    Also, there isn’t a damn thing that is “questionable” about my petition signature gathering. I’m considered to be one of the best petitioners out there (veteran petitioner Al Anders even rated me as #1 in the business in a thread on Ballot Access News).

    If you want to stir up trouble and play this bullshit game, I know somebody in Maine who said they saw you mislead a bunch of people during the anti-gay marriage petition you worked on in Maine. This individual told me that you told people that the gay marriage law in Maine was going to force churches to marry gay couples. If you said this – which this person swore that you said it to a bunch of people – this was completely false. This individual also said that you got into a bunch of arguements with people at locations, far more than anyone else with whom they have worked.

    There is also a person whom I spoke to that worked with you on a local initiative in Texas that had an interesting story.

    I had never once said anything bad about Eric Dondero the petitioner, so I sure as hell don’t appreciate these bullshit insinuations against me.

  5. paulie Post author

    Andy,

    If you want to stir up trouble and play this bullshit game, I know somebody in Maine who said they saw you mislead a bunch of people during the anti-gay marriage petition you worked on in Maine. This individual told me that you told people that the gay marriage law in Maine was going to force churches to marry gay couples. If you said this ? which this person swore that you said it to a bunch of people ? this was completely false.

    Actually, Dondero posted this on IPR:

    https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/07/libertarians-reach-out-to-gay-lesbian-democrats-picketing-dnc-fundraiser/comment-page-1/#comment-75582

    Problem is, 99% of these LGBTers are affirmative action/special rights supporters. What happens when they learn that we Libertarians don?t wish to treat them any more specially than anyone else?

    Better for Libertarians to reach out to religious folk, like the churches, who are being forced by government to perform Gay Marriage ceremonies, all over New England and other regions of the country. That?s a principled Libertarian stance, and one we can gain genuine adherents on.

  6. paulie Post author

    https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2010/01/libertarian-party-elected-officials/comment-page-2/#comment-150431

    LPC says:

    Part of the problem is that Dondero thinks that anyone who is antiwar is not a libertarian, and that anyone who is prowar ? whether they are libertarian or not in any way shape or form ? deserves to be supported.

    Thus, Giuliani become a ?libertarian Republican,? and Fred Thompson and Mitt Romney become ?libertarian enough? to support in his primaries. Ultimately Dondero voted for McCain, after doing everything he could to steer the Libertarian Party towards a Barr-Root ticket and saying it was the best ticket we ever had.

    Even Joe Lieberman is worthy of Dondero?s support, precisely because he is pro-war ? Dondero says ?true libertarians? support pro-war candidates even if they have a ?whole host? of bad views on social and economic issues, as he admits Joe Lieberman does.

    His love of big military spending and an aggressive foreign policy backed with tax money and US troops trumps whatever small government views he has.

    The rest of his views can be emphasized, de-emphasized or changed any time as it suits him.

    For example ? one minute he is pro-gay rights, and claims protecting his gay friends is one of the reasons why he wants to crusade against the jihadists, the next he thinks we should not do outreach to the LGBT community and individuals, but should instead target outreach at religious conservatives because they falsely fear that government will force their churches to perform gay marriages if gay marriage is made legal. Which is of course ridiculous.

  7. paulie Post author

    If you said this – which this person swore that you said it to a bunch of people – this was completely false. This individual also said that you got into a bunch of arguements with people at locations, far more than anyone else with whom they have worked.

    To hear the same type of meltdowns our witness (who previously worked with Dondero) said he frequently saw in the field, listen to these radio interviews:

    mms://www.harrybrowne.org/harrybrowne/05-10-29a.mp3

    mms://www.harrybrowne.org/harrybrowne/05-10-29b.mp3

    ftp://radio.harrybrowne.org:3031/05-10-29a.mp3

    ftp://radio.harrybrowne.org:3031/05-10-29b.mp3

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/hostpage.aspx?show_id=9322

    Places where he does the same thing in text format are too numerous to count.

  8. paulie Post author

    One such example:

    From: Eric Dondero, INTERNET:ericdondero@yahoo.com
    To: Steve Dasbach, SteveDasbach
    Date: 4/30/01 5:04 PM
    RE: Re: [RLC-National] The LP in Crisis … again, ho hum.

    “We could deal them a fatal blow.” … Michael, Michael, Michael??? … “Could.” That is the subjunctive form of the verb “can.” … Why would you use “could.” … Please reform your comments. The proper verbage which should be utilized in this instance is “must,” as in “we must deal the Libertarian Party a fatal blow.” … We are now in a state of all-out war with the LP. Though it could be argued that we, Chuck, a couple others and I, might have provoked them. They have declared war on the Republican Party with this latest salvo. … It’s time for the weak of heart amongst us, (don’t read these following names – Phil Blumel, Paul Jacob, that guy in New Jersey who is always talking about “cooperating with LPers”), to step aside. … The bombastic corps will now lead. We need to fatally strike the LP where it hurts. They are the enemy. Much more so than the Democrats or Moderate Republicans. … Let’s kick their asses, Braveheart style!

    — “Michael L. Sensor” wrote:
    In the interest of opposition research, here is the latest “crisis” fundraising email from the National Libertarian Party. … They are weak, very weak… it wouldn’t take much to deal them a fatal blow. Harry Browne’s quixotic plan to engage in extensive litigation against the FEC to challenge campaign finance laws — in which he wants to embroil the LP as a “litigation partner” — may do just that.

  9. paulie Post author

    Posted elsewhere:

    Paulie, please fill us in on some of Dondero’s bigger whoppers. I’ve been ignoring the guy for so long that I probably missed most of them.

    Where to begin? So many whoppers, so little time…here are just a few of many samples:

    1) Eric claims to be a combat veteran. How so? This is because he was stationed in the Persian Gulf during the 1980s. The Iranian mullahs, who were not at war with the US and were in fact receiving military aid from the US regime, accidentally shot down a ship that Eric was not on.

    2) Eric has claimed that Dana Rohrabacher was the “official founder” of the modern libertarian movement, and that libertarianism and anarchism are mutually exclusive.

    At the same time, he has claimed that he knew Murray Rothbard and Karl Hess well. So, was Rothbard not a libertarian, or not an anarchist? Were Mises, Friedman, Hayek, Rand, Read, Lefevre, Hess, etc., disciples of Rohrabacher?

    3) Eric has claimed that Arnold Schwarzenegger, Rudolf Giuliani, George and Jeb Bush, Joseph Lieberman, Zell Miller, Bill O’Reilly, Katherine Harris, etc., are all libertarian or libertarian leaning. At the same time, he is on record, on two radio shows, screaming and frothing at the mouth at Harry Browne and George Phillies, yelling that they are “not libertarian,” “leftist anarchists” for opposing the neo-crusader imperialists’ wars of aggression in the middle east.

    3) Eric has claimed that he has been a “top LP activist” for 25+ years.

    In reality, he was active in the LP during the middle and late 1980s, left the party in a huff and openly sought its destruction throughout the 1990s and early 2000s, came back briefly in 2004 to work with Gary Nolan and left again promptly to start (the oxymoronic) Libertarians for (the moronic) Bush. He came back again to work with some local candidates and Wayne Root, while also stumping for various allegedly libertarian Republicans and Joe Lieberman, but had already made plans for the partial birth abortion known as “Libertarians for Giuliani”
    before ultimately voting for McCain.

    When was the last time Dondero actually voted for a Libertarian in a race that a Republican was also in? He can answer if he wants. My guess is probably 1988.

    4) Eric has made numerous claims which were exposed in his presence, such as that Republicans never attempt to stop Libertarians petitions from making the ballot (Andy and I gave him many examples where they have done so), vastly exagerating the role of Lyn and Kelllie Adams in the Alabama LP, and so on. He would then make the same claims again in other internet fora.

    5) Eric claimed that he would be more than happy to re-enlist in the military and go kill him some haji ragheads if only he was not too old. When Andy pointed out that he is not too old to join the IDF, French Foreign Legion, Blackwater USA, Dyncorp, or any of many other outfits in active combat in the middle east, and provided him with forms for joining, Eric weaseled out of it.

    6) He has repeatedly posted lies about me, such that I had something to do with killing Roger Pope’s dog and that I am an illegal alien.

    How’s that for starters? Oh OK, one last one…

    7) I am this morning, declaring my candidacy for Congress in the GOP primaries against Ron Paul. If he does not resign his seat, and if another Republican candidate does not declare against him, I will run a balls-to-the-wall campaign for Congress in Texas CD 14. I am the guy that got Ron Paul elected to Congress in 1996. I can and will defeat him in 2008.

    Eric Dondero, Fmr. Senior Aide
    US Congressman Ron Paul (R-TX)
    1997-2003

  10. Robert Milnes

    This is bullshit.
    Anybody who encounters such nonsense-I mean communications, can do exactly what I did-skim/skip over it.
    Like I skim over US Parliament crap.
    & Tom K./Capozzi protracted debates.
    & paulie’s lols & obnoxious videos.
    etc.
    Stop this fool IPR policy.

  11. Bubba Nuts

    Speaking of number two.

    Didn’t Dondero start the “Republican Liberty Caucus”?

    And didn’t he recruit Wayne Root into the Libertarian Party?

    Also, didn’t he quit Ron Paul’s staff because Ron Paul is against the wars and then trash his former boss in public as much as he can?

    Doesn’t he go around all over the place telling the whole world, especially on the internet, that there is no real difference between Libertarians and Republicans?

    Doesn’t he frequently spaz out and start cursing, screaming and throwing a fit, whether online or in person, including while working?

    Didn’t Dondero go through a big court cause because he violated the BS residency requirements in Oklahoma, exactly what he falsely accuses Andy and Paul of doing?

    Isn’t intentionally misrepresenting facts (including petitions, such as the gay marriage issue, and others) a huge part of his MO, whether online, in private or in public?

    Hmmm, someone might almost think that’s been intentionally trying to destroy the Libertarian Party as well as Ron Paul Republicanism, both from inside and from outside, for at least the last 20 years if not longer.

    Would that be paranoid?

  12. Peggy Sue

    I used to think stuff like the above comment was all just paranoia. Then Eric Dondero threw a fit at the Kentucky LP because they removed Sonny Landham from the ballot, after he said we should kill ALL Muslims and ALL Arabs and nationalize the economy. Eric kept talking about how great Sonny Landham is and how he should continue to be a Libertarian Party candidate.

    Back then the Kentucky LP was trying to get Rand Paul to run as a Libertarian and Dondero was having none of it, because he thought Rand was antiwar like his dad. Now that it turns out that Rand Paul is actually a pro-war Republican, Dondero loves him.

    I’m trying to find out more about Dondero supporting a proud self admitted swastika toting neo-nazi in Virginia named Bill White and claiming that Bill White is a great libertarian. Anyone know more about that?

  13. Michael Cavlan RN

    I have a serious question.

    As an outsider.

    How in the name of God can the LP have this idiot Donnderhead and StarChild (I think this is his name) in the same room, never mind the same party?

    You could very well be right about Eric Donderhead being a sabotuer from the duopoly.

    We had a few in the GP.

  14. Gains

    Are ED and P both professional petitioners? Have they ever found themselves in competition for a contract?

  15. paulie Post author

    Are ED and P both professional petitioners?

    Yes.

    Have they ever found themselves in competition for a contract?

    Not to my knowledge.

  16. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    Time after time: Is it sabotage or well meaning ineptitude?

    The ‘Deform Party’ alone. One off the wall thing after another.

    And then you learn the back story [Example: Anti Nader Ohioan Virginia Brooks, a JBS and New Frontier Coalition operative. She 86ed both the print monthly and the national convention in the summer of 2004. ]

    2004 Anti Nader California GPers push back after BOTH Nader / Camejo AND Cobb / LaMarshe make the ‘front page, over the fold’ of the state print organ. Same size photo graph, same coloring, side by side. [Also Don Lake as 2004 Southern state Nader coordinator. ]

    Year after, trash canning the blood, sweat and tears of Citizens For A Better Veterans Home and their INVITATION to set up a state and national ‘Veterans Working Group’ (or words to that affect)!

    The more you know, the more sense the complex, contradictory world seems to make.

    ………. I’m just saying ……..

  17. Observer

    Bubba Nuts @ 15: I’m fairly certin that Dondero was fired by Paul. I heard Dr Paul say it in an interview some time back.

  18. paulie Post author

    @21 I think he said a “disgruntled former employee.” Dondero claims that Ron Paul’s chief of staff can confirm that he was not actually fired. I don’t think it matters whether he was fired or left in a huff over the war issue after 9/11. The end result has been the same.

    @17 Starchild.

    I don’t think they are in the same room too often. For example at the last convention, Dondero did show up but was not a delegate and did not stay the whole time. I did not actually see him there but Scott Lieberman came over to our table at the bar to say he had someone he wanted us to meet like a visiting dignitary had arrived or something. It was kinda strange.

    He was ferrying people back and forth for audiences with Dondero. When it came my turn I said I saw no reason to get up from the table with the people I was hanging out with, if Eric wanted to come over and say hi he could do it himself.

    That was before he started in on me again, so I would have at least initially been polite to him at that point. But I was not about to go out of my way to talk to him.

    Me and one state chair discussed the possibility of giving him a boot party, but it was more trouble than it was worth and a reasonable case could be made either way as to whether it would have been initiation of force or not.

    never mind the same party?

    We’re not really in the same party. Dondero did not even vote for Barr-Root, he voted for McCain. If he does not vote Libertarian when the candidates are Barr and Root and the Republicans run someone as thoroughly unlibertarian as McCain, when will he ever vote Libertarian again?

    He does pay his dues, although not regularly, at least according to him. That’s chump change, though. On most of his communications, he identifies himself only as a Republican.

    It is true that we have a lot of Libertarians that are kind of almost like Dondero, and others that are more like me and Starchild. We’re a mixed bag of nuts.

  19. paulie Post author

    Bubba Nuts @ 15

    The answer to all of your questions except the last one is yes. The last one…I don’t know.

  20. MaineRepublican

    @15

    “Didn’t Dondero go through a big court cause because he violated the BS residency requirements in Oklahoma, exactly what he falsely accuses Andy and Paul of doing?”

    How do you know the accusations are false?

  21. paulie Post author

    MaineRepublican,

    Are you saying you falsely signed notarized affidavits that you witnessed signatures that you did not actually witness? Just to be clear.

  22. paulie Post author

    Also,

    From the standpoint of me and Andy, it would not matter whether it is false or not.

    See comments 1-4.

    A) We were actually Maine residents at the time of the alleged incident. Andy later made it official, but I maintain that we were already both Maine residents with or without the paperwork. We made it official with the hotel first, which is why after 30 days we were no longer paying transient lodging tax. I had no other residence or domecile in any other state at that time. This was before the alleged incident.

    B) Even if I had not been a Maine resident, supposing Andy was witnessing my signatures, which he was, they would have still been legally witnessed by a Maine resident.

    C) Do you have any proof beyond your allegation and Dondero’s that the people who signed the affidavits were not present?

    D) Requiring anyone to be a registered voter is illegal under US Supreme Court decision, Buckley vs. Vallejo. Look it up. No state may legally require anyone to be a registered voter to circulate a petition.

    E) There was no need for me to be present at any turn-ins. All my signatures were also witnessed by Andy and our other witnesses.

  23. Andy

    “How do you know the accusations are false?”

    Because I was there and I know what happened.

  24. Andy

    “We made it official with the hotel first, which is why after 30 days we were no longer paying transient lodging tax.”

    Yes, the motel said that we were considered to be residents of the state after being there for 30 days and they no longer charged us the motel tax and they in fact refunded the motel taxes they had charged up until that point. Note that we arrived in Maine in August.

    Even though I was in fact a Maine resident starting during the month of September I continued to work with witnesses for several weeks after this. The petition coordinator in Maine acknowledged that I was correct about my being a Maine resident at that point but this individual feared being screwed over by the state so this person wanted me to keep working with witnesses anyway – which I did, however, this individual later changed their mind and said that I could stop working with witnesses since I’d been in Maine well past the time necessary to be regarded as a resident. I actually did end up registering to vote there as well.

  25. Michael Cavlan RN

    Paulie

    @22

    Thank you for the explanation Sir.

    Oh and just FYI

    Having a Boot Party for WAR had a whole different meaning for some of the folks I used to associate with.

    ARA (Anti-Racist Action) SHARPIES
    Skin
    Heads
    Against
    Racial
    Prejudice

    A WHOLE different meaning and a whole different kind of “boot party.”

    Oi!!

    LOL

  26. paulie Post author

    MC RN 30

    I used to hang out with SHARP too. NYC, 1980s, Lower East Side. Good times, great boot parties. Oi!

    PS I think we have the very same kind of boot party in mind. But for ED, not WAR, though.

    As I said. More trouble than it was worth and I wasn’t sure, whether under my (since then found) non-initiation of force principle, it would be justified/retaliatory or not. Moral dilemmas…damn.

    I think we were just joking around. Maybe. Only half serious. Me and one state chair who will remain anonymous, but he had his boys with him.

  27. paulie Post author

    For any Russian speakers. This one is called “what does a nazi need with a penis”

    Rough translation for non-Russian speakers:

    Our subject, the nazi bonehead, contemplates whether he really needs a prick, or should just cut it off.

  28. paulie Post author

    One last one from Russia. Sorry for the tangent, couldn’t resist. We’ll try to get back on topic after this.

    Here, our protagonists, two typical Russian nazi boneheads, discuss their great acts of heroism and plans for more of same. Then they encounter an antifa fighter and they deny that they are really actually nazi boneheads, even while still wearing their colors. Finally they both run away.

  29. Holy Cow

    From: Eric Dondero, INTERNET:ericdondero@yahoo.com

    Date: 4/30/01 5:04 PM

    “We could deal them a fatal blow.” … Michael, Michael, Michael??? … “Could.” That is the subjunctive form of the verb “can.” … Why would you use “could.” … Please reform your comments. The proper verbage which should be utilized in this instance is “must,” as in “we must deal the Libertarian Party a fatal blow.” … We are now in a state of all-out war with the LP. Though it could be argued that we, Chuck, a couple others and I, might have provoked them. They have declared war on the Republican Party with this latest salvo. … It’s time for the weak of heart amongst us, (don’t read these following names – Phil Blumel, Paul Jacob, that guy in New Jersey who is always talking about “cooperating with LPers”), to step aside. … The bombastic corps will now lead. We need to fatally strike the LP where it hurts. They are the enemy. Much more so than the Democrats or Moderate Republicans. … Let’s kick their asses, Braveheart style!

    Why is the Libertarian Party still employing an admitted enemy?

    That doesn’t seem very smart now does it?

  30. Conservative Tea Party Patriot

    We need more Sonny Landham Libertarians like Eric Dondero.

    Dondero is the best petitioner.

  31. Country Blumpkin

    https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/07/sonny-landham-calls-for-genocide-of-all-arabs/

    Sonny Landham calls for genocide of all Arabs and Muslims
    July 26th, 2008 ? 61 Comments

    Washington, DC ? During an interview with ?The Weekly Filibuster?
    radio show last night, Kentucky Libertarian Senate Candidate
    Sonny Landham heightens his controversial comments by calling for
    genocide of all Arabs.

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/theweeklyfilibuster/2008/07/26/Weekly-Filibuster-Special-Friday-edition-with-Sonny-Landham

    RUSH TRANSCRIPT OF PORTIONS OF INTERVIEW WITH ?The Weekly Filibuster?.

    Sage Koontz: So are you calling for a complete genocide of the Arab
    race? Is that what you?re saying? Unless they raise the white flag?

    Sonny Landham: When you are in a war, you kill every thing that moves.

    Sage Koontz: [Inaudible]

    Sonny Landham: What?

    Sage Koontz: Even if it?s an innocent person, is that a legitimate
    reason to take a life?

    Sonny Landham: Alright, do you consider the people that were in the
    twin towers, were they innocent or where they guilty of something,
    Sage, you tell me.

    Sage Koontz: They were innocent.

    Sonny Landham: Okay, they were innocent. So how do you think their
    survivors feel about Arabs?

    Sage Koontz: I don?t know sir, you?d have to ask–

    Sonny Landham: Oh, but you do know how these poor camel-dung
    shovelers feel, is that correct?

    Sage Koontz: I believe that?s completely?

    Matt Cavedon: This is Matt, and I?m from Connecticut and I know
    people who lost relatives in the attack on 9/11 and I remember being
    afraid for my life that we [inaudible]

    Sonny Landham: I can?t hear you.

    Matt Cavedon: I?m sorry about that. I said that I am from central
    Connecticut. I live ninety minutes from New York City. People in my
    town lost relatives and friends in 9/11. I live an hour away from the
    nuclear submarine base and I remember that day being afraid that there
    could be an attack on my state. I also know Arabs who have pined and
    cried for friends that they lost in 9/11. Now I know that the
    families of these victims do not support the genocide of?

    Sonny Landham: They don?t, alright. You?re speaking for each and
    every one of them, you?ve gone around and asked each of everyone of
    them what they want to do?

    Matt Cavedon: Of course not, but have you, you?re from–

    Sonny Landham: Did they want to ret–did they want retaliation?

    Matt Cavedon: Yes, did they want blind slaughter, abs–[olutely not]

    Sonny Landham: Alright, now, do you know, did not George Bush say a
    ?War on Terrorism??

    Matt Cavedon: Yes, something that the Libertarian Party–

    Sonny Landham: Wait a minute, I didn?t ask about the Libertarian
    Party. I just asked what the President did.

    Matt Cavedon: Yes, that?s what he said.

    Sonny Landham: Alright, so he said a war on terrorism. Do you know
    what the definition of war is?

    Matt Cavedon: I know that it?s not killing everything that moves and
    committing genocide against your enemies.

    Sonny Landham: That is war, my friend. That is war. That is war.
    Do you think–what do you think when the bomb was, the atomic bombs
    were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Matt Cavedon: Are you calling for outright genocide? Yes or no?

    Sonny Landham: I call for outright bombing them back into the sand
    until they surrender and if they don?t surrender, then you continue
    the war. Because if you don?t, you will never have peace in the
    United States. Now do you want peace in the United States or do you
    want to live to some utopian ideals that are impossible in a world?

    ?

    Sonny Landham: What is it that I have said about America that the
    Boston Tea Party would disagree with?

    Todd Barnett [Boston Tea Party Vice Chair]: Well, um, where I
    disagree is, um, the, um the language that you use, um–

    Sonny Landham: I?m sorry, the what?

    Todd Barnett [Boston Tea Party Vice Chair]: Where I disagree, Sonny,
    is the language that you use. Um–

    Sonny Landham: What language is that, sir?

    Todd Barnett [Boston Tea Party Vice Chair]: Well you refer to Arabs,
    all Arabs as camel dung-shovelers, sir. And you–

    Sonny Landham: Well would you prefer that I use rag-heads or camel jockeys?

    ?

    Ben Goodman: Do you fear that the Libertarian Party of Kentucky may
    decide to take the nomination away from you?

    Sonny Landham: That would be their choice, wouldn?t it.

    Ben Goodman: And, ah, if they were to do that, would you continue
    your bid as an independent, or?

    Sonny Landham: Now we?re into hypothetical questions. This hasn?t
    even come up. This hasn?t even come up. You didn?t have Libertarian
    people from Kentucky on the panel tonight, you had somebody out of
    Boston, or the Boston Tea Party, whatever. Uh, look, I?m the type of
    person that I have beliefs, core beliefs, and I won?t trade my beliefs
    for anybody. I?ll look you in the eye and tell you what I believe,
    and tell you what I think, and what I feel, and what I believe. And
    now unless, and I?m subject to change my mind on anything if you give
    me a rational argument, show me where I?m wrong and how we, what would
    be a better plan. I?m not carved in stone on things. But as long as
    I believe in something and I look you in the eye and tell you ?this is
    what it is,? that is my word and I stick by it until somebody can show
    me a better way. And as any party, I don?t care if it?s Libertarian,
    Republican, Democrat, or whatever else party you can conjure up, will
    not change my beliefs. My belief is a better life for the people and
    giving the people an honest shake, an honest day?s work. In their
    government. That?s where I stand and I don?t care what anybody else
    things or doesn?t think as far as a party, now we?re talking as a
    party platform.

  32. Country Steamer

    http://delawarelibertarian.blogspot.com/2008/07/libertarians-in-kentucky-forget-how-to.html

    Eric Dondero said…

    If the LP kicks Sonny off the ballot they will be risking severe ramifications for the Party for years to come.

    Most signers for the LP petition “signed for Sonny.” Kentuckians LOVE their Native American Hollywood Actor native son. The guy is enormously popular.

    If the LP dumps him, Kentuckians will be real upset with the LP, and justifiably so.

    Not too mention Sonny himself and all his supporters.

    Imagine how his supporters feel, the guys who collected signatures just for Sonny at parades and festivals, to now find out that he won’t be on the ballot.

    And why should Sonny be punished for being a Rightwing Libertarian? This is a Leftwing Libertarian witch hunt at its worst. You say something a little politically incorrect, or something that doesn’t jive with the Leftist line, and you get savagely attacked, called a racist and all sorts of other bad names.

    KENTUCKY LIBERTARIAN PARTY PLEASE KEEP SONNY!!

  33. Country Steamer

    keep #40 in mind as you read this…

    http://libertarianpeacenik.blogspot.com/2008/07/fight-racism-and-socialism-in.html

    Sonny Landham Brings Racism and Socialism to the Libertarian Party

    The Libertarian Party has become such a “big tent,” its candidate for US Senate from Kentucky, Sonny Landham, has engaged in Arab-bashing and endorsed socialism. According to Independent Political Report:

    “In a pair of interviews on The Weekly Filibuster Wednesday and Friday, Sonny Landham expressed support for genocide against Arabs and Muslims, whom he called repeatedly, ‘camel dung shovellers,’ ‘camel jockeys’ and ‘ragheads.’ He also called for an end to all immigration from Arab and Muslim nations, nationalization of businesses which employ ‘illegal’ immigrants, and nationalization of rental property of landlords who rent to them.

    Other opinions which Mr. Landham expressed in those interviews include: high oil prices are a form of ‘terrorism,’ support for the trade union activities of Eugene Debs, John Lewis and Jimmy Hoffa, and a call for economic nationalism and protectionism, particularly of the steel industry. Landham said that the federal government should reorganize the economy as a partnership between unions and corporations while erecting barriers against the international flow of goods and labor and using total war – including weapons of mass destruction – to acquire resources it considers ‘vital’ on behalf of its corporate-trade union-military-industrial axis.

    Landham also defended his role in producing a video for the Council of Conservative Citizens and said the message of the Libertarian Party is ‘States Rights Now, States Rights Tomorrow, and States Rights Forever,’ evoking a famous line from George Wallace’s inaugural speech as Governor (replacing ‘segregation’ with ‘States Rights’). However, Landham also said he is not qualified to explain or defend the views of the Libertarian Party, repeatedly saying ‘ask them.'”

    Landham’s racist, anti-Arab remarks should require no condemnation; denying Arabs their individualism is obviously anti-libertarian. I’ve written about this problem in the LP before in the May 2008 California Freedom, page 5.

    But consider Landham’s claim that “high oil prices are a form of terrorism.” Few LP members would (at least, openly) support Landham’s racist remarks, yet I have heard self-proclaimed libertarians and conservatives say that high oil prices give the U.S. moral ground to invade nations, if it’s in the “national interest,” and thus a form of “self defense.” Objectivists are especially prone to such lunatic remarks.

    Yet when Ayn Rand appeared on The Phil Donahue Show, about the time of the late 1970s gas shortage, Donahue asked Rand what is to be done about high oil prices and “windfall profits” for the oil companies? (Remember President Carter’s “windfall profits tax”?)

    Regarding the oil companies, Rand replied, “You must pay their price, and say thank you!

    It was classic Atlas Shurgged. I’m sure conservatives, libertarians, objectivists all cheered. But when the Arabs raise their prices, many on “the right” see it as justification for war. Apparently, Americans can morally raise their prices (Hail John Galt!), but foreign Muslims cannot.

    There sure are plenty of racist, anti-property rights hypocrites among objectivists, conservatives, and libertarians.
    ……………

  34. Country Steamer

    It seems that Landham/Lieberman Republican Eric Dondero is an arch douche only in sense #2 (from urbandictionary.com):

    1. the title given to someone high on the corporate ladder, in a position of authority, etc. who is also a douchebag.

    2. a person who is not necessarily in authority over another but who is just a huge douchebag, i.e. on the scale of all douchebags instead of just on one ladder

    Example 1: Jimmy is the arch douche of the accounting department.

    Example 2: That guy is the fuckin’ Arch Douche.

  35. Carlo Molina

    Who is in charge of hiring petitioners for the Libertarian. Do they know this information posted in the comment here.

  36. Pima Community College Conservative Tea Party Patriot

    Eric Dondero and Sonny Landham are exactly right!

    If any of you disagree with what they say…I challenge you to find one thing that is not 100% true and correct.

    We need more Landham-Lieberman-Palin-Beck-Dondero Libertarians…..

  37. Pima Community College Conservative Tea Party Patriot

    I have an idea, it will make America, and the world much better off.

    First we take all the Jews, Arabs and Muslims round them up and send them to the middle east.

    Next we get all the Mexican and Central American illegals and send them to there home countries.

    Then we drop nukes on them until they all die.

    Then we pop open a can of Coors Lite and shoot off fireworks, celebrate the 4th of July and high five “USA #1! USA #1!”

    Also, I think Jean-Claude Duvalier would make a great president as well. What I have to wonder is, if we have to have a foreign born negro as President, why does it have to be a Marxist Communist Muslim like Barack Obama, and not a good Godly man like Jean-Claude Duvalier?

    Do we really have to let Haiti have him back as their President, or can the US get first dibs?

    Julian Assange should be treated as an enemy combatant, and as far as drawing and quartering being unconstitutional…

    The constitution does not apply to enemy combatants and besides, if we make it commonplace, it wouldn’t be cruel and unusual punishment now would it?

    I’m not Chelene Nightingale, but she sounds like she has some good ideas. So what if she spells rhinos as rinos? Pamela Brown also spelled it RHINOS in the California official election booklet and she got 5.86% of the vote.

    My favorite part is where she says

    “Controlling the border to prevent illegals from committing crimes and terrorist acts and siphoning billions in services is a top priority. ”

    Why not just allow all Californians to shoot suspected illegals on sight? That would be a cost efficient way to keep those varmints from crossing the border. We sure would love to have a law like that here in Arizona, too.

    The part about cutting taxes during a disaster made a lot of sense as well. One time, a flash flood washed away my trailer and I remember sitting there, looking at the wreck that remained of all my former belongings and thinking “you know, what I could really use right now is a tax cut.”

    I’m a true red blooded American. My gun is firm, long, wide barreled, upright and ready, and my finger is always on the trigger.

    I hate gays and Mexicans with a passion. Nothing makes me madder with passion than a gay man or a Mexican, or especially a gay Mexican, with his shirt off and his muscles glistening with sweat. I hate them so much that my veins start bulging out, my nose flares, and I get all red in the neck and face. My gun gets just about ready to go off every time I see one, that’s how mad I get.

    I also hate the Islamic bastards, although I gotta say I kind of admire how they control their women.

    I support the troops and the police. In fact no one is a bigger fan of men in uniform than I am.

    I am also a Christian patriot. What I love the most about Jesus is His fervent nationalism, His support for the troops and wars of liberation, and His unabashed free market capitalist economic views. Like when He said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a poor Mexican to get into heaven. Jesus is my kind of tea party patriot!

    Another of my favorite Bible quotes: Go to war on your neighbor before he does it unto you. Couldn’t have said it any better!

    How can someone be a true Christian when they can’t even read the Bible in the original, English language, King James Version?

    Jesus spoke English Only, so why can’t the illegal Mexican invaders and all the other foreigners coming into this country to take away our jobs? Don’t they understand that in a free market these jobs rightfully belong to native born Americans?

    Like the citizens of Tucson 150 years ago, I support secession.

    As a former confederate territory, Arizona should secede from the union and round up and deport all the Mexicans. Then, since, slave holders were never compensated for having their slave property seized, the descendents of slaves living in Arizona should pay reparations to the descendents of slave owners.

    The ones that don’t have the money to do so should be put to work as cooks, maids and gardeners, since we won’t have the Mexicans around anymore.

    I hear that Bristol Palin recently moved to Arizona. Her mother, Sarah Palin, is my heroin.
    I love it when she said we should target liberal politicians like Gabrielle Giffords and, I quote, “don’t retreat, reload!”

    BTW what kind of guns and ammo are you into? I like ‘em big, personally.

  38. longtime reader x-time alias

    Pima, shouldn’t you be spraying anti-Xtian graffiti like all the other violent leftist kooks down there?

  39. Country Blumpkin

    Is it something in the water in Tucson?

    Besides Loughner, there was also one of his victims, who went on to make death threats himself at a community forum afterwards.

  40. Country Crammer

    Who is in charge of hiring petitioners for the Libertarian. Do they know this information posted in the comment here.

    I think that was supposed to be a question. If so it is a good question.

    I don’t think they care. As long as they get good quantity and quality signatures, someone who is willing to travel and performs reliably and does not make a lot of waves or question anything, or
    call them too often or expose mismanagement, works in all kinds of weather…

    They don’t care if their party views are being misrepresented, or if they have someone that regularly engages in screaming matches with the public, or that he has said openly he wants to “fatally strike the LP where it hurts. They are the enemy. Much more so than the Democrats or Moderate Republicans.” They don’t care that he ingratiates himself with people and then used anything he has learned to do as much damage as possible.

    In other words, went it comes to signatures, numbers talk and bullshit walks.

    On the other hand maybe they are just not aware of these facts. In which case maybe someone should bring it to their attention.

  41. paulie Post author

    Who is in charge of hiring petitioners for the Libertarian.

    There’s not really one person in charge. State parties sometimes, national at others. National mostly defers to Bill Redpath on this. Redpath has been friends with Dondero for a long time.

  42. Country Crammer

    State parties? That sounds like it would be a lot of work if you wanted to inform everyone.

  43. Tucson TEA

    Andi and Pauli girl have no credibility. Prove anything they claim. Eric Dondero rocks and Sonny Landham rules! Maine Republican tells the truth.

  44. Sherlock Holmes

    There are a lot of similitudes/”coincidences” between James Riske and Tom Shelly:

    James Riske lives in California, just like Tom Shelly.
    James Riske knows about photography, just like Tom Shelly.
    Why was James Riske defending Tom Shelly?
    Why was he looking for hosting for Niggermania?
    Why did he know so much about the conversations between Jon Felosi and Tom Shelly?
    Why does he have the same “quoting style” as Tom Shelly?
    Why did he use the alias “Tom” on the Russian forum?

    There’s no doubt that James Riske is Tom Shelly himself.

  45. adressing sherlock

    Is this Brian Schrier, the one that called the police on Christy saying she was selling mushrooms. He got her for thousands of dollars in San Mateo on the petition job that Tom Bader was running. I was there.

  46. paulie Post author

    @ 72 and if my colleagues weren’t bad enough, and all the people kicking us out everywhere we go, and the weather, and the expense of living on the road, and clients who delay payment or don’t pay at all…there’s also the general public

  47. Andy

    Each time there’s been a thread for petitioners the discussion has gone to sewer level. Maybe there shouldn’t be anymore of these. Neither of these threads have had anything to do with minor party or independent candidates which is the subject matter of this website. These discussions are not even in reference to petitions to put minor party or independent candidates on the ballot. It seems that a lot of wackos end up on these threads. Welcome to the sewer of IPR.

  48. paulie Post author

    Sewers serve a useful purpose. That is, to keep sewage out of the living room, kitchen, bedrooms etc.

    This is in fact one of the sewers at IPR, and we are going to keep flushing sewage down the sewer instead of clogging up unrelated threads at IPR.

    Petitioner controversies, where they pop up elsewhere on IPR, will keep being directed to threads like this. Other topics which come to excessively overwhelm unrelated discussions will get the same treatment.

  49. Porn Again Christian

    So in other words, it makes sense to have a toiletroom, rather than haaving people do their business all over the house? Is that the general idea here?

  50. SS Bottom

    #64 That story totally turns me on…I would love to suck the pus out of those ruptured cysts.

  51. paulie Post author

    Peter Orvetti posted petitioner thread #1. I’m not sure if someone else came up with the idea before that in comments or IPR list.

  52. Andy

    “Petitioner controversies, where they pop up elsewhere on IPR, will keep being directed to threads like this. Other topics which come to excessively overwhelm unrelated discussions will get the same treatment.”

    Petitioners controversies are only relavent to this website if they directly involve petitions for minor party or independent candidates. Neither of these petitioner threads had anything to do with the purpose of this website (ie-minor party and independent candidates) so they are both off topic. They are about the equivalent of somebody posting about viagra or porn or celebrity gossip or other off topic spam.

    These threads seem to attract a lot of loonies, several of whom post under fake names, and it is frankly a bunch of shit nobody cares about.

    If it had somthing to do with petitions to put minor party or independent candidates on the ballot it would be relavent, but nothing in these threads have been about that, therefore they should be regarded as off topic spam.

    These threads also give out the false notion that anyone who gathers signatures on petitions is completely insane. I’d think that you of all people would be embarrassed by this off topic nonsense.

  53. paulie Post author

    Petitioners controversies are only relavent to this website if they directly involve petitions for minor party or independent candidates.

    Would you rather that the discussions be shut down completely?

    The Libertarian State of the Union thread had nothing to do with Maine petitioning until you, Dondero, and MaineRepublican turned it into that.
    The reason these threads were set up is because that kept happening on numerous threads. We want those people who want to discuss these topics to still have a place to take these discussions to without bothering other people, many of whom were complaining, which is why these threads were set up.

    The alternatives for when discussions take the turn that the State of the Union one did are
    1) Take it to a thread like this or
    2) Have it shut down completely.

    The IPR writers as a group have decided that the topic was jacking too many threads, thus will no longer be allowed in unrelated threads. One or two mentions is fine, but when it takes over the conversation, it will go here or it will go off IPR.

    3) Allow it to be discussed on unrelated IPR threads is no longer an option.

    Again, that is a group decision by IPR writers with input from many IPR readers.

    It’s not up to me; those are the rules.

    These threads seem to attract a lot of loonies, several of whom post under fake names, and it is frankly a bunch of shit nobody cares about.

    Anybody who does not care about it is free not to read it. Setting it up as a separate discussion thread makes it easier for the people who don’t want to read it, not to read it. When it’s all over other threads, that makes it more difficult.

    If it had somthing to do with petitions to put minor party or independent candidates on the ballot it would be relavent, but nothing in these threads have been about that,

    Many of the comments about Dondero were directly related to putting alt parties and independent candidates on the ballot.

    These threads also give out the false notion that anyone who gathers signatures on petitions is completely insane. I’d think that you of all people would be embarrassed by this off topic nonsense.

    Yep, I am.

    And not everyone who gathers signatures is insane.

    Of course, that impression is worse when several petitioners perpetuate it in numerous unrelated threads.

  54. Andy

    “The Libertarian State of the Union thread had nothing to do with Maine petitioning until you, Dondero, and MaineRepublican turned it into that.”

    I didn’t turn the discussion to that subject, Dondero did. He made a bogus accusation of something that happened during an initiative petition drive and I posted a rebuttal. That’s it.

    I made the suggestion a while ago that IPR start covering more ballot initiatives, referenda, and recall, but you said that was not the mission of IPR. You said that IPR’s focus was minor party and independent candidates.

    Therefore, the subject of petitions or controversies surrounding petitions is only relavent to this group as it relates to minor party and independent candidates. Other than that it is off topic.

  55. paulie Post author

    I didn’t turn the discussion to that subject, Dondero did. He made a bogus accusation of something that happened during an initiative petition drive and I posted a rebuttal. That’s it.

    Yep, Dondero started it, and 20 messages or more about that topic later it was swamping the whole discussion on that thread. That is just one example of why this thread exists.

    Numerous people have asked us that that topic, and a couple of others that kept swamping numerous IPR threads, be confined to threads such as this one.

    That was the decision IPR writers reached as a group.

    The only other option that remains is to not have those conversations any more at IPR at all.

    Take your pick, but you can’t have them in unrelated threads, and it’s not even up to me.

    There’s really nothing to discuss here. If you don’t like this thread, don’t read it, and if you have to discuss petitioner controversies at IPR, you have to do so here. If that doesn’t work for you, take those discussion to somewhere other than IPR.

    Again, this is a group decision and it is not going to change anytime soon.

  56. paulie Post author

    I made the suggestion a while ago that IPR start covering more ballot initiatives, referenda, and recall, but you said that was not the mission of IPR. You said that IPR’s focus was minor party and independent candidates.

    That is correct.

  57. paulie Post author

    Therefore, the subject of petitions or controversies surrounding petitions is only relavent to this group as it relates to minor party and independent candidates. Other than that it is off topic.

    That is why it has been relegated to its own thread, since the only other option was to ban it completely.

    If it was not coming up in other unrelated threads frequently, that would not have happened, but it did.

  58. Andy

    “That is why it has been relegated to its own thread, since the only other option was to ban it completely.”

    I think a good arguement could be made to not discuss anything related to petitioners unless it relates directly to minor party and independent candidates.

    The only reason that I ever talked about any of this stuff on this site in the first place is because of the mismanagement and corruption that was going on with some Libertarian Party ballot access drives, mostly between 2006-2008. I thought that it was relavent because it concerned ballot access for the Libertarian Party.

    Anything about ballot access drives for Americans Elect, the Green Party, the Constitution Party, or any other minor party or independent candidate would also be fair game for discussion.

    None of the stuff on either of these petitioner threads has had anything to do with the topic of the site. Therefore it is off topic.

    People coming on here and making accusations and whining about stuff that may or may not have happened on an initiative petition drive that had no connection to minor party or independent candidates is off topic for IPR.

    The only reason I responded to any of this stuff is because there are people who have come on here and made false accusations against me.

  59. paulie Post author

    Look, we are just repeating ourselves.. I answered every single point you just made above.

    It’s not going away. If you don’t want to read it, don’t read it.

    Sorry…that is all.

  60. paulie Post author

    I’m pretty sure Andy said he is referring to ALL messages on this thread and the previous petitioner open thread, as well as the last one.

  61. Don Lake, strategically ..........

    The Divine Mister P, news clipping have been sent to you snail mail via national, ca, and al LP.

    Hope that they are useful but be away other evolving developments are changing the requirements of cali petitioning ………

    I believe Loyal Opposition secular saint Richard Winger is keeping more top of news than the MSM ……….

  62. paulie Post author

    I’m not the person who posted above you, nor do I know who that is or why that post is in this thread or on IPR at all. I’m guessing it is spam which the filter missed (happens sometimes).

    National, CA and AL LPs do not forward my mail. If you sent something for me to them, I probably will never see it.

  63. Vernon

    LOL

    What happened when Gary Fincher assaulted a police officer’s wife, Melissa Clapp when she tried to take her name off the petition she signed with him – Fincher’s distorted side of the story:

    http://libertycrusader.wordpress.com/political-consulting/quelling-controversy/when-troublemakers-and-corruption-mix-in-new-york-state/

    Her husband’s name is Michael Clapp. He is a Broome county sheriff detective. They resided in Vestal, NY at that time, and maybe still do.

    I wonder if the Clapps have been informed of Fincher’s arrest for running a false veterans charity in Massachusetts and pocketing money?

  64. Vernon

    More hilarity from Fincher’s blog:

    http://libertycrusader.wordpress.com/political-consulting/quelling-controversy/torture-ii/

    In 1991 Fincher gets arrested by Florida police after refusing to let a voter remove his signature from the Libertarian ballot access petition and proceeds to engage in disorderly conduct and then resisting arrest after police arrive. He leaves out that part of why he got arrested.

    He pleads nolo contendere to felony battery on the police officers and is unfortunately let out on bail. He receives one year’s probation and has it transferred to Alabama (I wonder if this has anything to do with his fellow felon Frankel, also of Alabama?) …. bear in mind he had Alabama car tags when he was arrested in Massachusetts this year (2014) so clearly there is an ongoing Alabama connection. It is also where the two of them dumped a dog which they stole in Texas and tortured to death, how sickening! Fincher also has a criminal conviction from Texas for holding a man at gupoint and had a Texas drivers license when arrested in Massachusetts in 2014.

    In his write-up Fincher admits that he next skips out on the terms of his probation to travel to Maine to harass and stalk an ex-girlfriend. (The man whose dog Fincher and Frankel stole, tortured and killed reports that in 2004, Fincher assaulted another woman in a McDonalds parking lot in Maine, beat and kicked her and stole her car). Fincher reports repeatedly calling the ex-girlfriend in Maine in 1992 after she tells him to stop. In a similar fashion, Fincher and Frankel were fired by the North Carolina LP in 2007 for calling and sexually harassing women that they registered to vote and had sign Libertarian ballot acess petitions. Frankel sneaked fellow felon Fincher into the state to collect signatures for pay without approval from the petition coordinators. Similarly, in the previously referenced incident in NY State Fincher admits to calling and harassing witnesses that he tries to intimidate or manipulate unsuccessfully to lie about his physical assault against the deputy’s wife in Vestal, NY.

    Fincher gets locked repeatedly in Maine mental hospitals in the following months and repeatedly threatens suicide, as he has many times before and since then.

    Unfortunately, the authorities don’t discover that Fincher has absconded on his probation and fled Alabama for Maine. Even more unfortunately, it is probably now past the statute of limitations, so he can’t be sentenced to prison for felony probation violation despite his written confession on the internet in the incident involving felony assault on police officers after he exhibited disorderly and demented conduct and resisted arrest when he refused to let a voter change their mind and remove their name from the petition, much like in the later case in NY State.

    Fincher then tries to escape from the mental hospital to make his last mandatory probation appearance in Alabama. His escape attempt fails, and he makes up a ludicrous story about mental hospital orderlies torturing him which the police justifiably just laugh in his face at. Somehow he escapes justice though, despite presumably missing the mandatory probation appearance. Unfortunately, he does not explain how he managed to avoid getting caught for skipping parole to stalk and harass a woman in Maine when he was unable to escape from the mental hospital to make a mandatory probation appearance in Alabama. By all rights and logic, skipping that appearance should have landed him in prison in Florida for assaulting the police officers, but somehow it didn’t; we don’t get to learn how exactly he managed to escape a well earned prison term in Florida in this case.

  65. Vernon

    Still more hilarity from the Fincher blog!

    http://libertycrusader.wordpress.com/political-consulting/quelling-controversy/1336-2/

    “Colleague Turns to Violence in California

    Commits Assault and Battery, Turns Violent May 5-8, 2010 in San Diego and Hemet, California.

    Restraining Order Put Out for Mr. Andrew Stepen Jacobs, aka Andy Jacobs.

    (see story on the World Wide Web by Googling Mr. Jacobs)”

    In a later story on IPR we find that Jacobs also resisted arrest and assaulted police officers after being asked to leave a public library for disturbing the peace, harassing and yelling at library patrons and trying to intimidate them into signing petitions or curse them for refusing. Maryland, 2010.

    Much like Fincher with the stalking of an ex-girlfriend in Maine which he admits to in 1992 (see above) and Fincher and Frankel stalking and sexually harassing petition signers in NC in 2007 leading to them being fired from the job, Jacobs was reported in multiple prior IPR comments to be stalking a woman in Tennessee around 2008-2011. Fincher also stalked and harassed the same woman.

    As we can see their response to police when being arrested for disorderly conduct was in both cases to resist arrest and assault police officers. Like they say birds of a feather flock together.

    Sexually harassing and assaulting women, assaulting each other, disorderly conduct and harassing the general public, stalking women off petition sheets, getting restraining orders put out against them, resisting arrest, assaulting police officers: a clear pattern of behavior emerges here which demonstrates why these psychopathic criminals are “thick as thieves” and virtually inseparable.

  66. Vernon

    Sometimes, the male bonding between these criminals turns violent as here described, in one of the links above by Fincher about how Jacobs beat him:

    ?I?d been viciously attacked, physically, in a barrage of punches to my face, head and body that lasted for several minutes, at a California hotel,?

    Sometimes it turns outward, usually against women and/or peace officers?

    https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2010/05/tom-stevens-libertarian-party-delegates-in-st-louis-should-oppose-efforts-to-decrease-involvement-in-party-affairs/#comment-287191

    Roger writes

    ?Gary Fincher also likes to beat up on young girls like the time I saw him beat the crap out of a young girl named Crystal in a parking lot in Maine. When the police came by he ran away after breaking the poor girls ribs. Even after all that Redpath knowing what he had done kept using him as a petitioner. The only thing the girl did was disagree with him on something. Kay, who he called his wife told me a whole lot more about him before she died that would make your skin crawl. Hope there is still someone left to listen. Fincher is dangerous in the same way as Hannible Lecter, and more so watch your backside. He will not tolerate anyone who disagrees with him. He also has a plan to punish women who have had abortions to prove how libertarian he is and is in league with his best friend who is up on charges for child pornography. He claims that he and his best friend liked to torture animals together as children and thinks that is normal behavior for a child. Many of the women he has traveled with dis appeared. He has no home,just a fake address, a PO box and a best friend in Texas with a basement in his house who he used to torture animals with and has had a plan to punish women and anyone else in the abortion field. That is what he told me. Also since animals are property he feels torturing is OK and natural especially for children. If you plan to travel with him watch your backside. He makes things up as he goes along. I keep warning people about him but no one seems to listen until it is too late. By then it is no longer funny. Right now you are probably laughing and thinking I?m the crazy one. Right??

    In the same thread:

    ?Gary owes me thousands of dollars and justified that I owe him because his car broke down while he had me drive it for him. Fincher is a professional victim who will never pay anyone back if he can justify it. He plays the blame game and is a user! Fincher is a nut case who thinks it is normal to torture defensless animals. When petitioning he attacks people who believe in evolution and tells people that people who blow up abortion clinics are heroes. If you continue to befriend him you must also be a nut case. ?

    Jacobs later learned the hard way about how Fincher ?borrows? thousands of dollars from people and does not pay them back, leading to the assault in California.

  67. Vernon

    Posted in numerous past IPR threads 2009-2011:

    I see the loser crew is back.

    Gary – the woman beating slob who forged voter registrations in New Mexico

    Frankel – the convicted felon, rapist, child molester and crackhead who forged signatures in Oregon

    Andy – the original inspiration for the character in the 40 year old virgin. He hasn’t been caught forging yet, but since he hangs around with Gary and [censored] there is a pretty high probability that he is a forger just like his loser friends. He always acts crazy and has to be removed by police because he petitions at grocery stores without permission and yells at people.

    Andy is currently stalking a young woman in Tennessee. He recently had to be fired from the voter registration drive in Arizona for deranged behavior and low quality work.

  68. Vernon

    If you google “gary fincher” fraud (put “gary fincher in quotes) you will find several articles about the recent veterans scam arrest as well as this gem which is highly worth reading and re-reading again and again
    http://www.libertyforall.net/why-some-petitions-should-be-burned/ Which also talks about petition and voter registration fraud by Gary Fincher and Paul Frankel in the late 1990s and early 2000s and their angry psycho friend Andy Jacobs defending them in 2008. Also google “paul frankel” fraud as well.

  69. Vernon

    Spread the word far and wide! Tell everyone you know!

    https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&authuser=0&q=gary+fincher&oq=gary+fincher

    I see Andy Jackoff has nothing to say about his good friend Fincher getting popped, and Paula Schpankel has some weak excuses that don’t pass the laugh test. Is Jacobs the next one to be arrested in this scheme (I am sure he will resist arrest per his usual modus operandi) or will Frankel get arrested once again just like he did for the voter fraud in Oregon? Maybe both? Will Frankel give the cops a fake name in a failed effort to escape justice? Will Frankel and Jacobs try to flee in a stolen rental car with Jake Witmer? And what role does “national coordinator” Mark Pickens play in all this? Stay tuned….

    Thomas L. Knapp August 6, 2014 at 2:37 pm Open Thread

    Is this the same Gary Fincher who is a former Libertarian Party ballot access petitioner and got caught forging Social Security numbers on New Mexico voter registration forms years ago?

    Vernon August 6, 2014 at 3:53 pm

    Thomas L. Knapp

    Yes, it is the same Gary L. Fincher, DOB 11/30/61. He has criminal convictions in Texas and Florida, and at the time of his arrest he had a Texas drivers license, Alabama car tags (probably something to do with criminal associate and convicted forger Paul Frankel with whom he killed a dog from Texas and dumped it in Alabama), Massachusetts weekly motel room and said he was entitled to the money (which included over $11,000 in a Bank of America account which has now been frozen) because he had been in the Army for 29 days in 1980 and failed to complete basic training. Another long time associate of Frankel and Fincher, Mark Pickens, was also involved in the scam as well. Fincher and other traveling vagabonds were setting up card tables in front of Walmarts and grocery stores to collect money for a bogus veterans charity and pocketed 100% of the money. They have been running this scam for years all over the country in many different states. A police report of the Massachusetts arrest from Mansfield MA should also be public record.

    This same crime syndicate including Frankel, Fincher, Mark Pickens, Andy Jacobs and Jake Witmer among others is involved with various political petition related scams, bogus charities, identity theft, drug dealing, prostitution related crimes, public intoxication, assaults, rental car thefts, sex crimes, and shaking down political and business clients for additional money through harassment, like they did with the LNC in 2007 and attempted unsuccessfully with Virgil Goode in 2012. Witmer and Jacobs were just questioned by authorities regarding alleged fraud and forgery in Illinois in conjunction with Libertarian ballot access petitions. And killing a pet now that is just wrong!!! Speaking as a veteran and a dog owner myself….

    For anyone to have ever been a long term friend and associate of Gary Fincher really shows their lack of character. Why would you be friends with someone like that unless you are the same type of person yourself? To avoid the taint, don’t associate with or especially hire anyone who has been friends with Fincher now or in the past. Boycott the FOGFs (friends of Fincher).

    Spread the word far and wide

    Vernon

  70. Vernon

    Let’s see if Jill Pyeatt keeps her word and keeps this thread uncensored this time or if she breaks her word yet again like she did the last time she promised a different thread would stay uncensored.

  71. Andy

    “Vernon” is a FAKE. “Vernon” hides behind a fake name. Everyone here knows who I am. Everyone here knows who Jill Pyeatt is. Everyone knows who George Phillies is. Everyone here knows who Tom Knapp is. Everyone here knows who everyone else here is WHO ACTUALLY POST UNDER THEIR REAL NAME.

    Notice how “Vernon” uses an IP ananonymizer. This is because “Vernon” is a FAKE and COWARD.

    “Vernon” HIDES behind a FAKE name because “Vernon” is a liar and a coward and has no credibility.

  72. Andy

    As for the comments about Gary Fincher, how is this relevant to anything when he has not even petitioned for the LP in over 4 years, and he has not really even been involved in any LP functions, or even been a member of the party, since 2008? 2008 was 6 years ago.

    The last Libertarian Party petition drive that Gary Fincher worked on was in New Mexico around January-March of 2010. There was no problem with his work (as was the norm with him) and the Libertarian Party made the ballot and is still on the ballot in New Mexico today from that petition drive.

    “Vernon” the FAKE is just trying to stir up trouble, just like the obedient little government provocateur that he/she is.

  73. Andy

    There are lots of people around the country who have worked on petition drives. I’ve heard estimates that there are around 400-500 people who work on petition drives each year for all, or most of their income. There are more than this if you include people who work on petition drives as a part time job, or who do it for for at least some of their yearly earnings.

    Most of the people who work in the world of ballot access are not libertarians. The majority of them are apolitical mercenaries who are simply out to make money.

    Isn’t it rather strange that “Vernon” obsesses over a tiny handful of people who have done (in the past), or currently do ballot access work, who have been (in the past), or currently are members of the Libertarian Party?

    If “Vernon” were really concerned with what goes on in the world of ballot access petitioning, there are plenty of other petitioners and petition coordinators that he/she could go after, yet “Vernon” is only obsessed with a tiny handful of people who have done this type of work who have been (in the past), or are currently members of the Libertarian Party.

    There are plenty of petitioners and petition coordinators out there who have all kinds of “juicy” stories surrounding them, and “Vernon” would not even have to embellish some of these stories in a lot of cases.

    I’ve worked on lots of campaigns over the years, and I’ve worked with lots of people, the vast majority of whom have never had any involvement with the Libertarian Party, yet “Vernon” obsesses only on a tiny handful of people who were (in the past) or are members of the Libertarian Party.

    It is blatantly obvious that “Vernon’s” real agenda is to sabotage the Libertarian Party, and the fact that “Vernon” HIDES behind a FAKE name and uses an IP anonymizer shows how little credibility that “Vernon” has.

  74. Andy

    “Vernon” the LYING FAKE COWARD said: August 30, 2014 at 8:25 pm

    Let’s see if Jill Pyeatt keeps her word and keeps this thread uncensored this time or if she breaks her word yet again like she did the last time she promised a different thread would stay uncensored.”

    There really ought to be a new policy here, and that is that no posts should be accepted from anyone who posts under a fake name and who uses an IP anonymizer. Either have the balls to post under your real name or get the fuck out of here.

    “Vernon” is a liar and a coward and deserves no respect, and since “Vernon” is too chickenshit to identify himself/herself ALL of “Vernon’s” post should be taken down.

    I don’t HIDE behind a FAKE name like “Vernon” the COWARD does.

  75. Jill Pyeatt

    I honestly don’t remember deleting comments after I said I wouldn’t. I wonder if he forgot what fake name he was using and used the wrong one, therefore causing me to not realize this was the same guy. Whatever. I really don’t owe the creep anything.

    I do wonder if this is the same onomymous person who sent those on the CA Ex Com in 2009 news about one among us. Wer never learned who that was.

  76. Andy

    ” Jill Pyeatt August 31, 2014 at 12:09 am

    I honestly don’t remember deleting comments after I said I wouldn’t. I wonder if he forgot what fake name he was using and used the wrong one, therefore causing me to not realize this was the same guy. Whatever. I really don’t owe the creep anything.”

    A lying coward who talks a bunch of trash behind a FAKE name like “Vernon” deserves nothing.

  77. Andy

    “Witmer and Jacobs were just questioned by authorities regarding alleged fraud and forgery in Illinois in conjunction with Libertarian ballot access petitions.”

    Yes, we testified in the challenge, and we were cleared of the false charges and our signatures were accepted as valid and were instrumental in the Libertarian Party achieving ballot access in Illinois in spite of the underhanded, and down right thuggish attempt by the Republicans to keep the Libertarian Party off the ballot.

  78. Andy

    There were lots of other petitioners who were questioned in the Illinois challenge. Most of the petition signature gathering on the LP of IL ballot access drive in 2014 was done by people who are not even Libertarians (which is typical, and is a part of the reason why the LP is not more successful, and it would not surprise me if this is being done on purpose). Given that lots of petitioners were questioned, in fact, the Republicans basically accused every petitioner who worked on the drive of engaging in various types of fraud, why is it that “Vernon” only singled myself and Jake out? Note that Jake and I are the only ones who have done lots of ballot access work around the country, and who are actually Libertarians, and who worked on the petition drive in Illinois this year.

    Why doesn’t “Vernon” mention anything about any of the accusations that were made against the non-libertarian mercenaries who worked on the petition drive in Illinois? Heck, I was not even there for the entire petition drive.

    It is pretty clear that “Vernon” singled Jake and myself out because “Vernon’s” real agenda is to sabotage the Libertarian Party.

    Hey “Vernon,” you’ve been using this fake name for quite a few weeks now. Isn’t it about time for you to switch fake names again?

  79. Shocker

    You can red the file at https://petitionerblacklist.wordpress.com/2015/02/03/virgil-goode-response-to-andy-jacobs-shakedown-attempt/ Click on the pdf or on each image page for larger view.

    Virgil Goode response to Andy Jacobs shakedown attempt

    alabama, andrew jacobs, andy jacobs, blacklist, blackmail, blackmail fail, constitution party, constitution party of alabama, fail, failed shakedown, frank fluckiger, fraud, jim clymer, low validity, petition fraud, petitioner blacklist, petitioners, petitions, ripoff, ripoff petitioners, shakedown, virgil goode

  80. Andy

    William Saturn

    February 8, 2015 at 1:12 am

    Shocker,

    I sent an a reply e-mail to you.”

    William Saturn, why the fuck would you take some chickenshit asshole who hides behind a fake screen name and an IP anonymizer seriously.

    I already told you what happened in another thread. I’ve got the two letters my attorneys sent to Virgil Goode and the CP, and also Virgil’s LIED FILLED, BULLSHIT response, in my email. The only reason I did not have my attorneys send another letter, IS BECA– USE THEY WANTED TO CHARGE ME MORE MONEY. The ONLY REAONS THAT I HAVE NOT FILED A LAW SUIT, IS BECA– USE THE COST IN PURSUING A LAW SUIT IS PROHIBITIVE.

    I have ALREADY EXPLAINED THIS TO YOU. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?

    Contact me if you are really interested and I have more “smoking gun” evidence.

    This “Shocker” character is likely a government troll, and probably the same person who has been posting as “Vernon” and other fake names here.

    This person is obviously spying on myself and other Libertarians who work on petitions, probably in an effort to sabotage field outreach for the Libertarian Party and movement.

  81. paulie Post author

    probably the same person who has been posting as “Vernon” and other fake names here.

    Highly likely. They “both” use http://anonymouse.org/ , have put up shitty wordpress blogs, use the same asshole smear tactics, and hate Libertarian petitioners. The pattern seems to fit.

  82. Andy

    Paul already posted the letters from the Alabama Secretary of State, that includes the official state counts. Johnson (and LP) paid. Stein paid. Goode did not pay.

    I have it in writing ftom Goode that he paid for 7,000 sigs, and that he’d pay for the rest later, but he never did. He also stiffed me out of the photo copying expenses.

    I petitioned for to get Chuck Baldwin on the ballot in Alabama in 2008 and you do not see me complaining about that. Why? BECA– USE I GOT PAID IN FULL! DUH!

  83. paulie Post author

    And “Vernon” just reblogged from “Shocker.” Which is not a shocker, and it’s not likely that his name is actually Vernon.

  84. Andy

    I worked Constitution Party petitions for the following elections:

    Pennsylvania (2004): Got paid in full.

    North Dakota (2008): Got paid in full.

    Arkansas (2008): Got paid in full

    Alabama (2008): Got paid in full.

    North Dakota (2012): Got paid in full.

    Alabama (2012): DID NOT GET PAID IN FULL.

  85. paulie Post author

    I did not have any problem with the CP until Alabama in 2012 either. And Virgil paid just fine in ND and in Alabama (albeit too low of a rate, but we took it anyway) until the petition ended and he did not need us any longer. It’s known as the “final fuck you” in the industry.

  86. William Saturn

    Andy,

    I’m pursuing this as an investigative story and am approaching it from a neutral pov. Right now I’m trying to figure out the terms of the original contract, which may help me understand the nature of any potential breach. As I understand it at the moment, Goode believes you personally did not obtain 7,000 valid signatures, but you believe you did. Was the 7,000 figure stipulated by contract? If so, this appears to be a simple dispute of fact over who obtained what signatures and how many were valid. I’d also like to know what the original contract said, if anything, about “copy costs.”

  87. Andy

    We actually did have some delays in North Dakota in 2012, but we did get the money. We were actually paid by CP National, but Virgil may have been the only one financing it through them.

  88. Andy

    Virgil also ripped off Nicholas Sumbles (who is a CP board member) and Darryl Bonner on final turn ins on petition drives in other states. They are both still angry about it as well.

  89. Andy

    William, there are many other petition drives where myself and others have been ripped off around the country. For instance, I (and some others) got ripped off on a Term Limits petition in Illinois last year by the Breslins (Dick and Jenny, mercenary petition coordinators).

    The biggest rip offs tend to happen with initiatives. Candidates, especially like the CP. are small potatoes. The big money is in initiative and referendum.

  90. Andy

    Once again William, if you are really interested, call me on the phone. Borrow a phone if you are afraid to give out a number, or we could set up a free conference call.

    Maybe we could meet in person some where. We could discuss this or any thing else over diner or lunch or something like that.

    Maybe you could talk to Darryl Bonnetr or Nicholas Sumbles. Darryl does not use computers, so you’d have to talk to him on the phone. He is pissed off at Virgil.

    I am a known person posting under a real name. Several people here know me in person. I am currently in California. I am not some fake hiding behind a fake name and an IP anonymizer while talking a bunch trash.

  91. paulie Post author

    Alison Potter

    9/27/12

    to me, jcassity, petition, virgilgoode2012
    Virgil,

    Everything Paulie says here about the work that he and Andy Jacobs have done for us on ballot access in many election cycles is true. I’ve always found them to be hard working, communicative, and conscientious about the job they do. As far as I can remember, we’ve never failed to gain access in a state they were handling for us.

    As far as I can see everything seems to indicate that we turned in the higher number of signatures that Alabama elections attorney Julie Sinclair says we did. Josh has confirmed that only about 60 signatures were turned in besides those collected by Andy and Paulie and their crew. Therefore, it seems to me they are owed for the remaining 660 signatures.

    Alison

    —– Original Message —–
    From: travellingcircus@gmail.com [me]
    To: jcassity@cpalabama.org
    Cc: petition guy ; virgilgoode2012@gmail.com ; Alison Potter
    Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:10 AM
    Subject: Re: ATTENTION VIRGIL GOODS (Alabama petition numbers)

    [Julie Sinclair at Alabama SOS office] told me she was too busy to do [recount], and if she has some Johnson and Stein signatures mixed in with Goode’s she might have some of Goode’s mixed in with Johnson’s and Stein’s, so she would really have to check all of them.

    I don’t understand why any of this is necessary though.

    The goal here was not to collect signatures just for the sake of collecting signatures, it was to get on the ballot.

    If we collected 10,000 signatures and failed that would be worse than if we collected 5,000 and every single one was valid, right?

    So, why would there be a penalty if it took us slightly fewer signatures to qualify?

    If anything, there should be a bonus.

    If Virgil was prepared to pay for at least 8,000 signatures to get on the ballot, there’s no reason we should get paid less if it took fewer signatures to get the ultimate objective.

    Furthermore, we’ve already HAD the official count from Julie of 7852 for TWO WEEKS now and Josh already told me on the phone that all but two sheets of it was ours. That approximately matches our estimate of what we had based on ongoing reports that people gave us every day of their numbers as well as what everyone estimated for the last day and corresponding numbers on the other two petitions.

    This is no way to treat people that qualified you for the ballot in Alabama in the summer and North Dakota in the winter, that have knocked out states for your party before and qualified every single one we ever worked on going back more than one election, and that do the job right. All while you have other states that you paid more for and failed.

    The other two candidates, Johnson and Stein, spent a lot more than you did to qualify in Alabama.

    Anything less than $20,000 is a tremendous bargain given how difficult it was this time, especially with location hassles in public places.

    The delays in getting the remaining payments have also caused us a lot of time and money.

    Paying the balance due, rather than having Julie recount the signatures and delaying things further just to see if there is some way to pay us less, should be the very least thanks we should get for a job successfully completed under very difficult circumstances.

    After all you had other drives fail, including very easy ones like Arkansas and Vermont and a really big one (Pennsylvania) plus some in between (Nebraska, Kentucky) and at least one that we know of where you were really lucky there was no challenge, based on what I have heard about the intentional disregard of validity there (New York).

    -paulie

  92. paulie Post author

    petition guy [Andy}

    10/2/12

    to Alison, virgilgoode2012, jcassity, me

    It’s been almost a month and we still haven’t been paid in full. You all have the numbers report from Julie Sinclair from the Alabama Secretary of State’s office. Has this numbers report from Julie Sinclair been read by Virgil Goode or from anyone from his campaign? The petition made the ballot. Other than the two pages of signatures to which Josh referred, the rest of the signatures came from our group of paid petitioners. So the way I see it, we are still owed for over 800 signatures, plus photo copy expense reimbursements (as in the expenses we incurred for photo copying the petition/note that we did get reimbursed for this expense in North Dakota).

    The original plan was for us to get paid on 8,000 signatures in Alabama. Virgil later said that he was probably going to be willing to pay for more than that once we hit 8,000. Unfortunately we fell short of 8,000 (due to being hassled at locations), however, since we had a good validity rate as a group it turned out that it wasn’t necessary for us to have 8,000 plus signatures to meet the 5,000 valid requirement because we came in with less than 8,000 signatures yet the petition still qualified for the ballot.

    Why should we be penalized for having a good validity rate? Isn’t it better to have a high validity rate than a low validity rate, such as what the people working on the Constitution Party petitions in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania had, as well as in Nebraska and Arkansas had (thus causing the Constitution Party to fail to access the ballot in those 3 states)?

    Also, it should be pointed out that in addition to knocking out North Dakota and Alabama for the Constitution Party in this election cycle, we also referred quality petitioners to the Constitution Party petition drives in South Dakota and Iowa, and there’s a good chance that if we hadn’t done this that the Constitution Party would not have made the ballot this time in South Dakota and Iowa. We did this FREE OF CHARGE. Many in the petition world won’t refer anybody to a petition drive unless they are making money off of it. In fact, I know that one individual who was involved with another petition that was going in South Dakota at the same time as the Constitution Party petition was actually telling people to NOT work on the Constitution Party petition, and they did this because they were not making any money off of it. I did the exact opposite, as in I referred people to work on the Constitution Party petition in South Dakota even though I did not make any money off of it. Take away our referrals and I think that the Constitution Party would have failed in South Dakota, and there’s a decent chance that the Iowa petition would not have been successful either.

    I don’t think that it is reasonable to delay payment, especially for a successful job, for several weeks or months. So can we get this thing settled soon so we can all move on with our lives?

    Thanks,
    Andrew Jacobs

  93. paulie Post author

    petition guy

    12/9/12

    to me, kevhays01

    I have a letter saved in an email from the Alabama Secretary of State’s office that says that the Virgil Goode petition had 7,852 signatures. The State Chair of the Constitution Party of Alabama said they only turned in 21 volunteer signatures, which means that we got the rest, which was 7,831 signatures.

    The agreement we had with Virgil Goode was that he said that he’d pay us for 8,000 signatures (note that the requirement was 5,000 valid signatures), then he said that he’d probably pay us for more than 8,000 signatures, but he wanted me to let him know when we hit 8,000 first. Unfortunately, we did not make it to 8,000 because we ended up getting run out of several places where we should have been able to gather petition signatures by the police and government bureaucrats, such as at least two state universities, a community college, the Birmingham Civic Center, and a public library. This effected out numbers and this is why were were scrambling up until the end to make sure we had enough signatures. We met at a Burger King a couple of blocks away from the State Capital building to turn in the signatures on the last day, and while we were there we found out that the capital security guards lock the doors of the State Capital building early, so fearing getting locked out and therefore not being able to turn in the signatures, the State Chair took off to turn the signatures in before we finalized the count.

    The pay rate was supposed to be $1.75 per signature, plus a .25 cent per signature bonus if we qualified for the ballot, plus another $1,000 bonus for qualifying for the ballot, plus a reimbursement for photo copies.

    The only things that we haven’t been paid on our the $2 per signature for any signature beyond 7,000, and the reimbursement for photo copying petitions.

    Since the payment is 3 months late I don’t think that it is unreasonable to say that there ought to be a late fee on top of this.

    I frankly think that the controversy surrounding the final count is a bogus argument anyway, because Virgil had already agreed to pay for 8,000 signatures (and then he actually said that he’d pay for more than that). Yes, we did not hit 8,000 (due to the reason I listed above), but we made up for it by having a high validity rate. Why should be penalized for having high validity? If anything, we should get an additional bonus for having high validity. Why? Because it means that we took the care to make sure that people were screened properly before they signed the petition, and that they signed it correctly. The BOTTOM LINE is that the job got done and Virgil had agreed to pay us for 8,000 signatures (plus a reimbursement for our photo copy expenses).

    Virgil said he wants somebody to go to the state capital building in Alabama, and count all of the signatures (even though a person who works at the election office already did this, and even though Virgil has seen the report from this person), and then he wants to chisel us out of (as in not pay us for) any signature that he does not consider to be valid, even though we qualified him for the ballot in Alabama, and even though the Secretary of State’s office reported that we had a good validity rate.

    Allison Potter of the Constitution Party has already said that she agrees with us and she told Virgil to pay us the rest of the money and thus far he has not done so. I’ve also called Jim Clymer about this and I have not been able to speak to him yet.

    Two other individuals that I’m aware of also claim that Virgil Goode still owes them money for petition drives. One of them is Nicholas Sumbles who is on the Constitution Party’s National Committee.

    I think that it is totally unreasonable to not pay me the rest of the money for Alabama for this length of time. I would like to get the rest of the money in full as soon as possible (as in this week).

    Thanks,
    Andrew Jacobs

  94. paulie Post author

    Joshua Cassity

    9/13/12

    to me, Alison, Virgil, Andy

    Since Andy and Paul were the only two petitioners who were authorized to turn in signatures, and I am unaware of any major petition efforts by supporters of the state party, it is my belief they are owed for the remaining 660 signatures.

    Joshua Cassity
    Chairman
    Constitution party of Alabama

    http://www.cpalabama.org

  95. paulie Post author

    Joshua Cassity

    9/13/12

    to me, Alison

    Alison,

    The signatures received from Vern Bearden (220) were signed on the 2014 petition from statewide ballot access.
    We only had about 20 that we could use from him. Since Virgil paid him directly, I will max my donation out to
    Goode’s campaign as a reimbursement.

    Joshua Cassity

  96. paulie Post author

    If you look at the link “Shocker” posted of Virgil’s letter, those were the signatures from North Alabama and the ones he saw at a meeting in Alabama that he referred to in his letter.

  97. paulie Post author

    “Requested information for each person signing includes name, residential address, county of
    residence, city of residence (if applicable), voting place, date of birth and signature. A
    signature shall not be deemed invalid for lacking any portion of the requested information if
    the disclosed information is sufficient for determining the validity of a signature. [Alabama
    Administrative Code, Rule 820-2-4-.05(3)]”

  98. Andy

    You should post the letter from the Alabama Secretary of State.

    You should also post the hand written letter from Virgil Goode where he says he paid for 7,000 signatures, and will pay for the rest later, which he never did, if you can find that letter in your email (I think I sent you a scan of it).

  99. paulie Post author

    You should post the letter from the Alabama Secretary of State.

    That’s the link I posted earlier.

    You should also post the hand written letter from Virgil Goode where he says he paid for 7,000 signatures, and will pay for the rest later, which he never did, if you can find that letter in your email (I think I sent you a scan of it).

    I am not finding that.

  100. Andy

    William, have you read the letter from the Alabama Secretary of State? If not, do not proceed forward until you read that letter.

  101. Andy

    Still waiting to see if William actually read the letter from the Alabama Secretary of State’s office.

    I have also got to wonder If William is even interested in truth, or if he is just trying to stir up more drama.

  102. William Saturn

    I have read the letter from the Secretary of State but it doesn’t say how many of those signatures were obtained by you, Goode himself, or somebody else. I also do not know whether the original contract specified for 7,000 “valid signatures” or whether it simply asked to surpass the 5,000 requirement.

  103. Andy

    Goode was never in Alabama. Our crew was the only crew of paid petitioners. The Constitution Party only turned in 2 pages of volunteer signatures.

    There was one CP member who collected more sigs, however, they screwed up and used the wrong petition, which had the wrong legal language, and wrong date, and the State Chair on the CP in Alabama said they did not turn those in because none of them would count.

    Regardless of this, Virgil had already agreed to pay for 8,000 raw sigs to meet the 5,000 valid requirement, which meant he agreed to a 62.5% minimum validity. The Secretary of State’s office reported our validity as being much higher than that, so we haf well over 5,000 valid sigs.

    8,000 raw to get 5,000 valid at $2 per raw sig is $16,000, plus the $1,000 bonus is $17,000, plus the photo copy expenses, which was something like $250. Virgil only paid for 7,000 sigs, and he never paid for the photo copies, so he clearly cheated us.

    Why was this not a problem when we did the Chuck Baldwin petition in Alabama in 2008?

  104. Andy

    It should also be pointed out that Virgil had very little support from the state CP in Alabama. Most of them did not even like him. The few who did anything said they just did it out of party loyalty, or as a favor to the national CP.

  105. paulie Post author

    I have read the letter from the Secretary of State but it doesn’t say how many of those signatures were obtained by you, Goode himself, or somebody else.

    That’s where the email from Josh Cassity I posted above is illuminating. All but 21 of the signatures were gathered by us as Josh can confirm. I have the original email and can forward it to you if you have any doubts that it is genuine, and his contact info is also publicly available.

    I also do not know whether the original contract specified for 7,000 “valid signatures” or whether it simply asked to surpass the 5,000 requirement.

    It was to pay for at least 8,000 raw signatures and potentially even more with the actual goal being 5,000 valid. There is no point in having 7,000 valid signatures because the state requirement is 5,000. With the statement that he was prepared to pay for at least 8,000 signatures at 2.00 plus a thousand dollar bonus that is 17k, and as I understand it he only paid 17k. It really should have been at least 20k, or maybe more given how late the payment is. Even if he only pays out on 831 more signatures plus the bonus that is $2,662, and with the copies that’s still basically another 3k he owes. But I don’t see why having better validity than what he counted on should mean a reduced payment. The bottom line is getting on the ballot, not just collecting signatures for the sole purpose of getting signatures. So if he was prepared to spend at least 17k to be on the ballot, he needs to pay the balance of that, no ifs ands or buts, plus an apology and a late fee.

    See the rest of the emails I posted above, including where CP Alabama Chair Josh Cassity and CP national ballot access coordinator Alison Potter agree. I have all the originals of those emails and can forward them on request.

  106. paulie Post author

    I also do not know whether the original contract specified for 7,000 “valid signatures” or whether it simply asked to surpass the 5,000 requirement.

    For my purposes, it does not matter. I will assume he is interested in the truth. Even if he’s not, someone else might read it who is.

  107. Andy

    We never agreed to only getting paid on 5,000 valid signatures, and I have never heard of the Constitution Party operating a, petition drive that way. This was NOT the deal, and if it had been, we would have demanded a much higher pay rate, and if the highet rate was not met, we would have turned the job down.

  108. Andy

    What Virgil / CP owes us on is sigs beyond 7,000, photo copy reimbursement, and at this point, I’d say 2 years and 5 months worth of interest, and an apology.

  109. paulie Post author

    Andy…give William (or anyone else who may be reading that cares, if such people even exist) a chance to catch up please. At this point I think we have laid our evidence and arguments on the table or at least enough to get started. If we keep talking at this point we just make it harder to separate the wheat from the chaff. People don’t have unlimited attention spans.

  110. William Saturn

    It will take some time to review the materials before I write something.

    I’ve covered the Goode campaign closely for Wikinews. I did a phone interview with Goode shortly after he announced in 2012, and exchanged e-mails with him for stories throughout the campaign. I wrote (but still need to update) the Wikipedia article about his campaign. And perhaps I will one day write a book about the campaign. This subject interests me and I have been fair in my reporting of it. I will continue to do so.

  111. Andy

    William, if you are truly interested in a fair account of what happened, I have more information, some of which is not online. You also may want to consider talking to Nicholas Sumbles and Darryl Bonner, both of whom say they were also ripped off by Goode on petition drives.

  112. paulie Post author

    Darryl does not use email or computers. If you want his part of the story you would have to talk to him on the phone. If you are really worried about people having your phone number, block your number and I will try to get him on a three way call.

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