Wayne Root Comments on FOX News Featured on Jon Stewart Show

Email from Wayne Root to IPR:

Wayne Root continues to attract media attention.

Yes, he was a guest on 30+ shows in the past couple of weeks- as usual.

But Wayne’s appearances on FOX News actually get noticed and discussed by other mainstream media.

A year ago NBC News aired a one hour special on the Obama White House. They featured live coverage of Obama’s “media response team” sitting in the White House watching TV as the Justice Sotomayor controversy erupted live on cable TV news. What example did they use?

A video clip of Wayne Root on “Fox & Friends” calling Sotomayer’s comments racist.

The NBC special then showed Obama’s team responding to Wayne’s comments by going into crisis mode.

It’s happened again. Only days ago, The Jon Stewart Show featured a segment on “the terrible, greedy conservatives” who defend free market capitalism, and want to reduce the salaries and pensions of teachers and other government employees. Watch below…at 2:45 Jon Stewart shows a clip of Wayne Root on Fox News with Neal Cavuto:

Originally from The Daily Show with Jon Stewart.


IPR notes: 1. Some previous discussion of this show already in the comments at Wayne Allyn Root to Host Welcome Event at FreedomFest in Las Vegas

2. Clip via MoveOn.org (allows comments).

145 thoughts on “Wayne Root Comments on FOX News Featured on Jon Stewart Show

  1. Peace & Love

    I can see How wayne would be proud of putting his foot in his mouth yet once again! . I am sure his “fans” will still support every non Libertarian thing he has to say after all he is getting Media attention right ?

  2. paulie Post author

    I am sure his non-fans will also get media attention so that the folks at home will get a more balanced picture of what Libertarians stand for. Right?

  3. Peace & Love

    r u serious ? you are telling me that you are going to accept this clowns actions on camera because he is getting media .? Wayne Root is not a Libertarian ! and by saying that he is only gives the LP a bad name .. Don’t settle for a sell out .

  4. paulie Post author

    Peace and Love,

    r u serious ? you are telling me that you are going to accept this clowns actions on camera because he is getting media .?

    I’m suggesting that we need other Libertarians getting media. More about that in a minute.

    Wayne Root is not a Libertarian !

    He’s a Libertarian Party member, a member of the Libertarian National Committee, Vice chair of the Nevada LP and chair of the LNCC (national congressional committee). Whether you believe he is ideologically libertarian is up to you.

    The question is not what you believe, it’s what have you done or what will you do to let other people know you believe?

    Otherwise it’s like pissing in your pants in the dark; it might make you feel warm (for a short time), but nobody will know.

    and by saying that he is only gives the LP a bad name .. Don’t settle for a sell out .

    I’m not suggesting “selling out” in the sense of betraying our beliefs. “Selling out” in the sense of a packed stadium would be good, though. Even a packed nightclub would be a step up from an almost empty coffeehouse.

  5. paulie Post author

    Reprise of a comment on a previous thread:

    I can think of a million ways to bring in media attention

    Very good! Put some of them into practice, and see if you get other people to help you.

    Tell people what you did and how you did it (contact.ipr@gmail.com, among other ways) and maybe some of them will copy the things you do which produce results.

    Rinse, lather, repeat.

    most of the LP is too scared to take any real action

    That’s why we need new – and in general younger – party members.

    If your local LP is too stodgy and would run them off, bring them into a new group – say Libertarians for saving Brothels, or Libertarians for Peace, Young Libertarians, the possibilities are endless…but make sure they are at least current on minimal LP dues well ahead of the convention.

    Keep rinsing and lathering.

    If you or anyone else would like to discuss these ideas further, you can do so here, or call me at 415-690-6352.

  6. Peace & Love

    With wayne Root getting all the glory for misrepresenting The party and acting like a glenn beck Libertarian will only fill a night club with .. do I even need to say it come on paulie. I dont care if W.A.R pays his dues to party he is not a Libertarian . now root is active with his state party wow when did that take place ? lets see how much he will do for nevada . I can tell you right now unless it is for his self gain he will be doing nothing ! 🙂

  7. paulie Post author

    P & L

    You can think whatever you want about Wayne.

    I’m more interested in seeing other Libertarians rise to the occasion and get media.

    Wayne is just one guy.

    I want to see a lot of Libertarians in the media, maybe even some that I agree with more often than I agree with Wayne.

    There are lots of those out there, but they are either not getting in the media or they are not sending us their clips.

    So please get some media and send us some clips!

    More in a minute…

  8. paulie Post author

    Posted previously on other threads:


    I’ve been told that Wayne gets all the press that he gets by hiring a media booking person. Thus, what we need is one or several energetic, knowledgeable spokespeople that are willing to devote some time to writing fairly regular op-eds and making media appearances. Perhaps you might be one of them, or perhaps doing interviews is not your forte.

    Regardless of the answer to that first question: Perhaps, you and several people could chip in to hire a media booking person for the person or several that takes on the spokesperson role.

    http://newslink.org provides numerous contacts for every type of print and broadcast publication. Someone could go through that and book tons of media interviews and places to publish op-eds. Small town daily, urban free weekly and college newspapers are usually very easy to get published in.

    Include a note with every column that lists your website, contact info, the fact that you are interested in doing interviews, and encouraging people to disseminate and publish your articles far and wide with proper author credit and that same note attached. Send your media clips to your fans and other media with that same note.

    On your site, have your media clips featured prominently, like Wayne does on his. Include an easy, and (sorry folks) in your face way to get everyone who visits to either sign up for your column and interview clip release email list or reject signing up for it before proceeding. Have other interactive features on the site that keep people there more.

    At the very top of the site, feature your core message graphically as well as verbally. For example, a peace sign, a marijuana leaf and a gold dollar sign and below them the words PEACE, CIVIL LIBERTIES, FREE MARKETS.

    Find a few friendly LNC reps to make sure all your op-eds and lists of your media appearances appear on the official LP blog. Send them to contact.ipr@gmail.com as well. Share them on twitter, facebook, etc. Post the media clips on a youtube channel.

    Rinse, lather, repeat.

    We need a list of a few people that are ready, willing and able to disseminate the flavors of libertarianism that you and I are closer to, just as Wayne is doing with his. And we need a few people with the time and/or money to hire the people with the time to get them booked.

    After that, just keep building, step by step. Build your lists of supporters. Give them stuff to do. Build your lists of warm media contacts. Build your lists of appearances and places published. Use them to leverage more and bigger ones.

    Rinse, lather, repeat.

    Let’s say you are like me, with a face for radio, a voice for print and a writing style that best suits a TV soap star, but no money. Well then, help spread this idea and maybe a few people with money will hire one or two of us to be the media booking people – “the back office,” so to speak.

    Tell your friends. Spread this concept. Make it happen.

    Don’t feel like it? No problem. Maybe someone will read this and do something about it.

  9. paulie Post author

    If anyone would like to discuss these ideas further, phone line is open at 415-690-6352 for about 3 more hours tonight. Operator standing by.

  10. Wayne Root

    Wow…jealousy, bitterness and envy. Is that Libertarianism? I think not.

    I think some people…who conveniently remain anonymous on IPR…just can’t handle it when someone achieves success…and tries to open the big tent for the LP. I guess they like it a small debate society, so they can be big fish in a small pond.

    Criticize me for what? For defending capitalism a year ago on Neal Cavuto on FNC? Yes that clip of me played by Jon Stewart was out of context from a year ago.

    Why am I being criticized? For being asked a year ago whether govt should be in charge of salaries on Wall Street…and answering in a completely Libertarian fashion that in the free market people get paid what they are worth, and it’s none of the government’s damn business. And oh by the way, the government shouldn’t be involved in bailing them out either.” That’s not Libertarian? That’s embarrassing to the LP? Really?

    And in all my recent interviews where I’ve led the way in criticizing excessive compensation and pensions for government employees, I suppose my anonymous critics will say that’s not Libertarian either. Really?

    I think we have anonymous progressives and socialists and Marxists and bitter jealous people using fake names and acting like Libertarians, when they haven’t a clue…unless they think a Libertarian supports govt employee unions…likes big govt spending…applauds the high taxes necessary to pay for it all…hates the free market and wants govt to limit salaries in the private sector. Would that sum up my anonymous critics on IRP? Sure seems so.

    Funny.

    My advice…

    A) You’re not a Libertarian. Stop pretending. Obama is looking for new voters. Go join- you’ll fit in perfectly.

    B) Get your own media instead of criticizing someone who is succeeding. Bitterness and envy are never going to get you anywhere.

    C) Stop confusing leftist socialist propaganda with Libertarianism. Last I checked the LP’s own web site describes us as the party of FISCAL CONSERVATISM.

    All my critics keep attacking my fiscal conservatism and arguing I’m not a Libertarian.

    Really? I think someone missed the class on Libertarianism…or they are progressives masquerading as LPers to confuse and denigrate our party.

    And my final bit of advice…if you don’t have the chutzpah or courage to use your real name, get lost.

  11. Peace & Love

    funny wayne who was the one who removed me from your facebook because a post was made to this same headline ?? what you could not take the blow ? You know who this is 🙂 truth hurts huh? Go ahead play your spokesman game in search of your own fame . Wayne what are you going to do for the Nevada lp?? so far you have only proven me correct by doing nothing keep up the great work champ

  12. paulie Post author

    P & L

    Friend requesting you on facebook. If you don’t want to talk about my ideas @ 9 on the phone maybe you’ll want to talk there.

  13. paulie Post author

    For example….Debra Dedmon (LG) is doing something (hope to hear more about that soon) …maybe you could help her with that….or start your own thing

    https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2011/03/archived-show-debra-dedmon-susan-lopez-talk-nevada-brothels-on-grotto-radio/

    https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2011/03/libertarians-for-saving-nevada-brothels-a-perfect-storm-of-opportunity-a-winwin-for-women-nevada-and-libertarians/

    https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2011/03/grotto-radio-tonight-libertarian-debra-dedmon-susan-lopez-of-sex-workers-outreach-project-re-harry-reid-wanting-to-end-legal-prostitution-in-nevada/

    https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2011/02/david-colborne-reid-not-stimulated-by-legal-prostitution/

  14. Wayne Root

    To “Peace & Love”…

    Never has a name fit more poorly.

    Try to live up to your name. It might help in your future relationships.

    As to your comment on me knowing you…I haven’t a clue who you are.

    I’m a little busy…tonight I’m appearing on 400+ Premiere Radio stations…right now I’m busy writing a commentary to be released tomorrow.

    I don’t have time to visit my Facebook site 24/7. I have over 6000 friends on Facebook. I don’t know them all. I try to visit once a day.

    But I do have a full time webmaster whose job is to remove anyone who is bitter, jealous, denigrating or demeaning on my Facebook page. I guess he has talent- he recognized you and sent you packing. LOL

    As a Libertarian I welcome free speech. Anyone can disagree with me…debate me…discuss issues with me…but you can’t denigrate or demean.

    I’m sorry IPR doesn’t follow this policy…either be nice, polite, respectful and positive to defend your view…or goodbye.

    Amazing how people think they can be disrespectful and demeaning on someone else’s Facebook page. They can’t. That’s why it’s called FRIENDS and FANS.

    The FB page is for positive discourse. Disagreements are fine- if kept polite.

    Say I’m wrong. Say why. But if you choose to say nasty, demeaning, bitter comments, you are no longer welcome.

    My webmaster obviously saw your comment and deleted.

    I’ll have to give him kudos and a raise.

    Politics could be so wonderful if people took the high road. Speak respectfully- especially on someone’s FB page. Those pages are for “friends.”

    If you actually thought I knew who you are…why not take off the hood…and come clean on IPR? Tell me and everyone who you are.

    Sorry I have no clue.

    Goodnight everyone.

    Thanks Paulie for always being a gentleman. You are appreciated.

    Anyone else who has disagreement with me…or anyone else…let’s all pledge to discuss issues…debate fairly and cleanly…and not call others names. Don’t denigrate. Just win the battle with facts.

    Goodnight & God Bless,
    Wayne

  15. Stop all war, stop all W.A.R. Strike the ROOT

    Stop all war, stop all W.A.R. Strike the ROOT!

    As Thoreau said, stop striking at the branches, STRIKE THE ROOT!

    Workers Are on STRIKE – Against War – Against W.A.R. – Against evil – Against ROOT!

    W.A.R. Is Against Workers – W.AR. wants WAR with Workers – EVIL ROOT EVIL!

    ROOT is the ROOT of ALL EVIL!

    ROOT is ROTTEN! ROOT is EVIL!
    War is ROTTEN! WAR is EVIL!
    W.A.R. is ROTTEN! W.A.R. is EVIL!
    Workers Strike Against Rotten Evil Root
    Workers Strike Against Rotten Evil War
    Workers Strike Against Rotten Evil W.A.R.

    When the ROOT is ROTTen the Tree of Liberty WEAKENS FROM WITHIN.

    Money is not the ROOT of all evil
    WAR is!

    Workers are not evil
    W.A.R. is!

    Stop striking at the branches, STRIKE THE ROOT!

    W.A.R. = War Monger
    Strike The Root
    War is wrong
    W.A.R. is wrong
    Right the wrongs
    WRIGHTS strike the ROOT fix the WRONGS in LP
    Stop All Wars
    Stop all W.A.R.
    ROTT is ROOTed out LP Tree of Liberty Grows wRIGHTs again AMEN!

    WAR is wrong – W.A.R. Is Wrong – Workers Are Right – W.A.R. is EVIL stop EVIL stop W.A.R.!

    Workers are working for their rights. Striking for their rights. Liberty Tree.

    Workers Strike in Middle East – W.A.R. Support Repression by Regime…
    Workers Strike in Midwest – W.A.R. Supports Repression by Regime…

    W.A.R. Against Workers – Workers Against W.A.R.

    Tree of Liberty – Blood of Tyrants
    W.A.R. Supports Tyrants
    W.A.R. Supports Tyranny
    W.A.R. Supports Evil
    W.A.R. Supports War

    Workers for Wrights – Work for Wrights – STOP ALL W.A.R.! – Work against war – work against W.A.R. – Work Against Root – Workers Against War – Workers Against W.A.R. – Workers Strike the Root!

    ROTT is ROOTed out LP Tree of Liberty Grows wRIGHTs again AMEN!

  16. Peace & Love

    Not sure if this is even the s.o.b him self of just another paid writer ..

    paulie you are now added 🙂

  17. paulie Post author

    Not sure if this is even the s.o.b him self of just another paid writer ..

    It’s the real Wayne.

    paulie you are now added

    Thanks!

    If you want to talk about possible projects and media ideas (see comment 9) message me.

  18. paulie Post author

    As a Libertarian I welcome free speech. Anyone can disagree with me…debate me…discuss issues with me…but you can’t denigrate or demean.

    I’m sorry IPR doesn’t follow this policy…either be nice, polite, respectful and positive to defend your view…or goodbye.

    With very rare exceptions, I don’t want to be in the position of deciding when something crosses the line.

    I already am in a way, but I want to keep that to a minimum.

    Also, there are a lot of times when I just don’t have the time for it.

    Thanks Paulie for always being a gentleman. You are appreciated.

    Thanks Wayne. I appreciate hard workers, even if I don’t always agree 100%. Of course I don’t agree with anyone 100%, possibly not even myself 🙂

    Anyone else who has disagreement with me…or anyone else…let’s all pledge to discuss issues…debate fairly and cleanly…and not call others names. Don’t denigrate. Just win the battle with facts.

    That would be welcome for a change. Too bad more people don’t do this.

  19. Thane Eichenauer

    Paulie is completely right when he suggests that those with a complaints with Mr. Root should take to the camera and make sure that those who watch TV have a libertarian voice on their set.

    I’ll disagree with Mr. Root as far as the IPR comment policy. I can only assume they allow any and all comments to ensure that what needs to be said gets said.

    It doesn’t take much effort for me to see that those who can do and those who aren’t critique those who are doing a job that sorely needs to be done. It you don’t like what Root is saying, make a point, find a quote and shine a spotlight on it. I haven’t seen one comment critical of Mr. Root on this post that was anything but generic name calling.

  20. Thane Eichenauer

    @18

    Yet more generic and unsubstantiated name calling.

    I find Mr. Wrights to be a fine guy. I listened to his presentation at the Arizona LP convention recently and he didn’t need to mention Mr. Root even once (as best I can recall). You could do worse than to follow in his foot steps.

  21. Michael Cavlan RN

    Paulie

    Since this is the real Wayne Root, do you mind if I ask him a non thread related question here?

    If WAR is still responding? From a non Libertarian, “lefty” Campaign For Liberty kind of guy?

  22. paulie Post author

    I don’t mind if you ask.

    I can’t guarantee that he will answer.

    From my experience, since Wayne has started replying to IPR comments, he usually does so near the start of a thread, not so much as it goes on.

    You’re welcome to try.

  23. Wild guess from me

    I could be wrong, but the name that comes to mind that is behind Peace and Love is Mr. Knapp.

  24. Why not put up a Wayne thread

    Maybe for those off questions that people have. Wayne could have his own blog posting. Also for those of you, I think it is very generous of Wayne to take time out to even post on here. With his limit time that could be used for more important things. How many of you can do what Wayne do. When some of you complain and all you do is complain about Wayne because you have nothing better to do. How about you add to the cause and go out there and help the LP. When you have accomplish what Wayne has done then you have room to talk.

  25. Michael Cavlan RN

    This is a copy and paste from the previous Root article of “progressive model of tax and spend is dead” that he wrote.

    It was unanswered then and still remains.
    So-Here you go

    Dear God.

    If I was a Libertarian I would be deeply embarrassed by W.A.R.

    Wayne Allan Root makes commentary that are Glen Beckian in their delusional, feverish, divorced from reality basis.

    Comments like Barack Obama is surrounded by a “Socialist Cabal.”

    Obama is surrounded by corporatists. People of the calibre of Timmy Geitner. People with very direct connections to Goldmann Sachs.

    People with ties to Goldmann Sachs are not noted for their “socialist” sensibilities. People like George Soros are not filled with Socialist revolution. Well except in the delusional, addled brains of Mr Root and Glen Beck. Ironic that both appear on Fox News.

    George Soros and Goldmann Sachs have made a boatload of money from the foreclosure crisis. From the misfortunes of poor folks. Not a very socialists endeavor is it?

    Of course George Soros has lots of money. To fund politics. So does Robert Murdock, Dick Army and the Koch Brothers.

    In a classic example of divide and conquer.

    Mr Root also makes the case that Ireland and others face a deep economic crisis. He says that it is based on the force of Trade Unions and a society that has all those “bennies” being given away to unworthies.

    Again, that is only in the addled, delusional minds of Mr Root.

    I lived in Ireland for 15 years. I still have family there. So I have a rather deeper and more immediate contact to what is really going on there than Mr Root. Good old WAR.

    The crisis in Ireland was caused by…….

    BANKERS, DEVELOPERS and other wealthy folks having very direct ties to those in government. In the Fianna Fail, Fine Gael and Labor Parties.

    They pushed to help fuel the economy and real estate bubbles in Ireland.

    Which mirrors pretty damned close what is happening in the United States.

    Ireland does not practice quantitative easing. Unlike the US government.

    So when the bubble pops here, it will hit much harder.

    Maybe then Wayne Allen Root will awaken from his Glen Beckish fevered, divorced from reality, delusional thought process.

    I doubt it though.

    Because then Fox News would not have him on the air. Someone has to lead the divide and conquer strategy that the corporate elite have working “both” sides of the one money party system with two corporate wings.

    Consider this a very direct challenge to Wayne Allan Root.

  26. paulie Post author

    Mr. Cavlan

    Your chances of getting a response may be better if you cut stuff like this out of your comments:

    embarrassed by W.A.R. ….Glen Beckian in their delusional, feverish, divorced from reality basis. …..addled, delusional minds of Mr Root…Maybe then Wayne Allen Root will awaken from his Glen Beckish fevered, divorced from reality, delusional thought process.

    You make some points that deserve an answer, but including things like that in your query does not invite dialogue.

  27. paulie Post author

    I could be wrong, but the name that comes to mind that is behind Peace and Love is Mr. Knapp.

    You could definitely be wrong.

    As far as I know, Mr. Knapp only comments under his own name.

    Additionally, his spelling and grammar is usually very good.

  28. paulie Post author

    Maybe for those off questions that people have. Wayne could have his own blog posting.

    He already has articles and threads on here on a frequent basis. There’s no need for a separate post IMO.

  29. Matt Cholko

    I agree with Wayne’s comments on this thread 100%. I don’t agree with some of his positions, but he should not be condemned for getting media attention. If you think he is misrepresenting the LP, work on getting some media attention for yourself, or someone you agree with. Then, maybe you’ll find yourself on Fox news debating Root.

    If you’re not inclined to do this (I am not, at this time), then at least try to keep your criticisms productive. Just giving Wayne a bunch of shit for saying things you don’t agree with is not going to accomplish anything at all. Unless you considering making people think you’re an asshole to be an accomplishment.

  30. to Paulie

    I know he already has his posting on here. I just ment, in case when some people might go totally off topic. Just saying.

  31. Michael Cavlan RN

    Paulie

    Agreed. I thought the same thing after reading the comments about making comments fairly and cleanly. Right AFTER I hit send.

    I respectfully ask that those comments be ignored. Although, truth be told I am a 100% Free Speech kind of guy, as most here are. Also, it should be noted that WAR making comments like Obama (who I can’t stand) is a Socialist is, itself a similar kind of ad homonym.

    Unless Wayne has some information on Obama that the rest of the world are not privy to.

  32. paulie Post author

    MC

    Agreed that Obama is a corporatist, I don’t see him as a Socialist either. I also don’t think he is a Muslim or born in another country, and he’s probably not an alien shape shifting reptile from outer space either 🙂

    Also agreed that I would not remove your comments for using language such as what I just pointed out. It’s a request, not an ultimatum, and hopefully a helpful hint. It sounds like you agree, and hopefully will remember that next time.

    TP

    1) Please don’t include “Paulie” in your screen names. If possible, come up with a screen name and use it consistently. Otherwise, at least please don’t use the names of other people that post here as part of your screen names.

    2) I don’t think that questions to Wayne are too off topic for this thread. As far as I am concerned that is close enough to be considered on topic for IPR purposes.

  33. paulie Post author

    Unless you considering making people think you’re an asshole to be an accomplishment.

    It’s a goatse contest in here all too often. If you don’t know what that is, you probably don’t want to know.

  34. Brian

    Root sucks. He’s like a proto-libertarian Ralph Nader. He’s selling his brand. He’s out for himself.

  35. Eric Sundwall

    A few thoughts . . .

    1. The clip within a clip on the Daily Show is an entirely forgettable moment for that audience. Wayne’s clip was out of context, and that improper choice and usage should be questioned, rather than lauded as another notch in the ‘media’ belt.

    2. Highlighting it as something exceptional is strained. Clarifying it to an anonymous critic is grasping.

    3. Agreed, the anonymous attack is always annoying, however clever, justified or otherwise conceived or received. Cowboy up and just say who you are if your so damn worked up . . .

    4. The whole ‘I’m a success and big tenter . . .’ got worked over in the 2008 LP cycle. Historical electoral examples give little range outside of protest for third parties (19th century anomalies notwithstanding). Not accepting or realizing that is problematic. Tweaking or softening an ideology won’t shift and change that conundrum.

    Of course, I’m just an upstate bumpkin . . .

  36. Matt Cholko

    Paulie said – ….he’s probably not an alien shape shifting reptile from outer space either.

    Me – You’re wrong! The White House has been asked repeatedly to produce documents proving that he is not an alien, and I’ve not seen them. Therefore, he IS a shape shifting reptile from outer space.

  37. Porn Again Christian

    Paulie says he was born in Berdsk, Novosibirsk Oblast, Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic, USSR, but where’s his birth certificate?

  38. Root's Teeth Are Awesome

    Root: “Wow…jealousy, bitterness and envy.”

    Projection?

    Many have observed Root’s obsessive jealousy of his way-more successful, former classmate.

    Although many may hate him, Obama will be greatly admired by hundreds of millions of people a century from now. He will be the subject of hundreds (thousands?) of academic and popular books and articles — and films and TV shows and webisodes and whatever else new media exist.

    Whereas, a century from now, no one will even know that Root ever existed.

    No wonder Root is so jealous of Obama. They both attended Columbia at the same time, yet Obama has made history, while Root must still tell everyone how famous he is.

    If you must tell people that you’re famous, you’re really not that famous.

    Obama (or Angelina Jolie, or Stephen King) never tells people how famous he is. He doesn’t have to. He just is.

  39. paulie Post author

    Many have observed Root’s obsessive jealousy of his way-more successful, former classmate.

    At least he gets face time on the news talk shows and gets money for doing his “Obama thing,” what do the Root critics at IPR get for doing their “Root Thing”? A warm feeling in the dark? A goatse award?

  40. paulie Post author

    Although many may hate him, Obama will be greatly admired by hundreds of millions of people a century from now. He will be the subject of hundreds (thousands?) of academic and popular books and articles — and films and TV shows and webisodes and whatever else new media exist.

    Whereas, a century from now, no one will even know that Root ever existed.

    I once carjacked a DeLorean, but I never have had a time machine yet. Could I borrow yours if I promise to bring it right back? Won’t be a sec. 🙂

  41. Steven R Linnabary

    I hope someday to be quoted , misquoted , taken in or out of context on the Stewart show , it’s an honor regardless…

    I suppose it’s an honor…of sorts.

    A few years ago when i was running for School Board, I appeared on “the #1 talk radio show in it’s time slot” (actually the ONLY talk show in that time slot). I talked a bit about the separation of school and state.

    Somehow my comments became something about “separation of races” which was never mentioned, or even thought. But for the next 2 months, every commercial for that show had my comment about being for separation.

    Thankfully my name wasn’t used in these commercials, but the episode still sticks in my mind. It is EASY for Libertarians to be taken out of context.

    PEACE

  42. Jim Duensing

    @ 11

    Careful – you’re beginning to sound a little like a crazy conspiracy theorist here:

    I think we have anonymous progressives and socialists and Marxists and bitter jealous people using fake names and acting like Libertarians, when they haven’t a clue…unless they think a Libertarian supports govt employee unions…likes big govt spending…applauds the high taxes necessary to pay for it all…hates the free market and wants govt to limit salaries in the private sector. Would that sum up my anonymous critics on IRP? Sure seems so.

  43. paulie Post author

    Will any 2 or more of the following agree to debate on radio?

    Jim Duensing
    Lee Wrights
    James L. Burns
    Wayne Root

  44. Thomas L. Knapp

    Wild Guess @ 28,

    “I could be wrong, but the name that comes to mind that is behind Peace and Love is Mr. Knapp.”

    Nope, that’s not me.

    First of all, I’ve been out of town this weekend and haven’t been commenting on IPR (I ran past it a time or two, but I don’t type any more than I have to on a laptop keyboard).

    Secondly, I only bust Wayne’s balls when he deserves it, and in this case he doesn’t.

    Getting your mug on The Daily Show isn’t a bad thing.

    Unless I am mis-remembering, Wayne has been rock-solid and right on the subject of taxpayer bailouts for Wall Street and banks.

    While I think Wayne is missing the forest for the trees vis a vis Wisconsin, Stewart didn’t even go there — he just threw up an out-of-context sound byte on CEO salaries.

    Stewart tried to hand Wayne a bag of lemons, and Wayne made lemonade — he took the bragging rights to being important enough to make The Daily Show and used them.

  45. Judaeophobe

    Hi there. I’m obsessed with Jews for some weird reason and it appears I am also stalking Paulie. This post used to be a list of people Paulie friended on facebook in the last 24 hours and links to some Jew hating websites and videos, but now it’s this. Well, that was fun, now I’m off to masturbate to interracial cuckold themed porn, which is my favorite kind. I’m truly a great representative of the master race, it’s a wonder I haven’t offed myself like my fuehrer Adolf Hitler yet. Maybe I will soon.

  46. peace & love

    @52

    I know the two I would enjoy hearing 🙂
    I would even pay money to listen

  47. Robert Capozzi

    es40: The whole ‘I’m a success and big tenter . . .’ got worked over in the 2008 LP cycle. Historical electoral examples give little range outside of protest for third parties (19th century anomalies notwithstanding). Not accepting or realizing that is problematic. Tweaking or softening an ideology won’t shift and change that conundrum.

    me: How so? 08 seemed par for the course, with MSM success vs. 04 and most other cycles. 80 was big tent, and was our best showing ever. Other ideologies get tweaked through the years, too. It seems obvious to me that the L ideology is not ONE ideology, but a range of ideologies…and that’s always been the case.

    You just ran a big-tent campaign that did way better at the state level than previous campaigns, and almost achieved ballot access. This was despite 2 simultaneous fractures, one from within (Queens) and one from without (Davis). Neither fracture had much to do with how big-tent the Redlich campaign was, near as I can tell; without those fractures, you might have achieved 50K.

    Perhaps the LP is moving to where its members are, rather than being dominated by an elite cadre….

  48. LibertarianGirl

    eace & love // Mar 7, 2011 at 4:17 am

    @52

    I know the two I would enjoy hearing
    I would even pay money to listen

    56Porn Again Christian // Mar 7, 2011 at 4:35 am

    Which ones?

    me_ she means Duensing and Root

    having said that I believe Jim ( with a ton of help from me as I provided every piece of equipment) put on the best presidential candidate debate at the LSLA meeting in Vegas way back. it frickin rocked , I still have the vid somewhere….

  49. AroundtheblockAFT

    Instead of pissing and moaning about all of WAR’s publicity, we need to urge the Nat.HQ to assign/hire/whatever a publicist to get Hinkle and other party leaders on talk shows all over the country. The LP needs a stable of go-to experts who can discuss foreign policy, fiscal issues, judicial issues, social issues, etc.
    No one will agree 100% with what anyone else says; therefore, let’s stop this incessant “he’s not really a Libertarian” talk. Yeah, there is obviously a minimum line somewhere – used to be “the draft” – but the fact of the matter is that a Libertarian is one who pays dues and signs the non-aggression pledge. If the delegates want to amend the definition (no-one who acts like a used car salesman or has a bad haircut or who
    doesn’t dress in a suit and tie or was once a stripper or who has a Republican or Democrat friend or hasn’t been on our side for at least five years) then let them try to do so at the next convention.

  50. Root's Teeth Are Awesome

    @ 49

    No need for a time machine, Paulie. Just use common sense.

    Obama is a president of the U.S. And the first black president.

    They’re still writing books about Teddy Roosevelt, and he continues to have both fans and detractors.

    Of course Obama will be famous, with plenty of admirers, a century from now.

  51. paulie Post author

    RC 80 was big tent, and was our best showing ever.

    Other factors in that too.

    LG my guess for peace and love is from vegas —A-G

    I won’t confirm or deny; if peace and love wants to post under a real name, that’s his/her decision.

    I still have the vid somewhere….

    I wish you Vegas folks would send us some of those videos you take.

  52. paulie Post author

    Instead of pissing and moaning about all of WAR’s publicity, we need to urge the Nat.HQ to assign/hire/whatever a publicist to get Hinkle and other party leaders on talk shows all over the country. The LP needs a stable of go-to experts who can discuss foreign policy, fiscal issues, judicial issues, social issues, etc.

    Exactly.

    If national won’t do it, maybe the Libertarian Donors Club or someone will do it first. Whoever does it, it needs to be done.

  53. paulie Post author

    No need for a time machine, Paulie. Just use common sense.

    Obama is a president of the U.S. And the first black president.

    They’re still writing books about Teddy Roosevelt, and he continues to have both fans and detractors.

    Of course Obama will be famous, with plenty of admirers, a century from now.

    Maybe, maybe not.

    We have no idea if humans will still exist. Maybe not even any life at all on Earth.

    If humans exist, we have no idea if they will evolve far beyond the current level, perhaps through some merger of human/biological and machine/computer.

    If we are still humans pretty much as we know them today, our society may evolve, and Obama and other US warlords may be about as well thought of as Stalin and Hitler.

    Or, perhaps human society will crash, and people will be too busy foraging for food and warring with rocks and spears to worry about American presidents.

    Maybe we’ll live in a totalitarian society that will erase the past and substitute a fake history, or none at all.

    Maybe Root will go on to be the first Libertarian president in 2024 or something, and will be up there with Obama.

    Or maybe you are completely correct.

    There’s just no way to know.

    Too bad for me, that DeLorean I boosted as a teenage car thief back in the 1980s was not the one from Back to the Future, so the search for a time machine continues.

    Maybe I’ll live that long and see for myself.

    Or maybe I won’t even live another day.

  54. paulie Post author

    having said that I believe Jim ( with a ton of help from me as I provided every piece of equipment) put on the best presidential candidate debate at the LSLA meeting in Vegas way back. it frickin rocked

    Yeah…it was too bad none of the candidates did well, including the one I was working with, so additional candidates were recruited into the race because of that. I wish things had gone differently.

  55. @37 just tried to make it easier

    I was just making it easier, I am not sure about you, but I guess some of us having to read through all of the blogs to look at the one that might be addressed to the person. there are too many blogs sometimes to go through and some of us don’t always have the time. LOL.

  56. Brian

    @48 Paulie

    Root is a nobody. Doing an “Anti-Root thing” would get no attention because nobody cares about him. He is a failed third party presidential candidate who runs a website that looks like a 1998 geocities website. Does that mean we shouldn’t go after him? Of course not. Root chooses to be a public figure (if you can even call him that). As such, he is open season for criticism.

  57. paulie Post author

    Of course’s he’s open for criticism. I’m just wondering what the upside is. What do we gain?

    Shouldn’t some of his critics be able to do what he has been doing? If not individually, then maybe by pooling some resources? I’m suggesting some steps to do that at comment #9. The purpose of that is not “ha, ha, you’re not doing anything.” It’s to get people to actually do the things I suggest.

    Then, other people can criticize you and your media appearances for a change.

    Wouldn’t that be, like, totally radical?

  58. Jim Duensing

    @LG I’d like to see the videos from that debate as well.

    As for future debates, I will engage in as many debates as possible. My preference for format is Lincoln / Douglas or a town hall format.

    I think there would be a large audience for a debate between myself, Lee, Burns, and WAR. I’ll even offer up time on my radio show if we can get two or more of the other candidates to participate.

    In Liberty, with Eternal Vigilance,

    Jim

  59. I guess all these insults helps

    I think it is great some of you are insulting Wayne. Keep it up. the more insults you make, the more he gets exposed. All this good karma is working. The insults will work against you if it already haven’t done so, will make you look like fools in the dust.
    Like Cain and Able. Wayne will be the Able who get shined and exposed. The insulter (Cain) will have jealously eat away at them and etc. Live miserable lives.

  60. Root's Teeth Are Awesome

    @ 71: “Wayne will be the Able who get shined and exposed. The insulter (Cain) will have jealously eat away at them and etc.”

    Root and his fans always whine about their opponents’ “jealousy.”

    Yet they continually ignore Root’s own, obvious jealousy about Obama.

    If jealousy is a negative trait, Root should work on fixing his own jealousy problem.

  61. peace & love

    last i checked u could find the video on nevadas myspace page.. Thats if they still have one idk.

  62. Robert Milnes

    paulie, you just don’t get it.
    A real libertarian-esp. a radial anarchist libertarian, can’t get MSM publicity.
    When is the last time you saw a radical on tv?
    EVER?
    There are very few examples/exceptions.
    MAYBE Ventura.
    MAYBE Gravel, briefly as a democrat.
    Ron Paul, briefly as arepublican.
    PLUS-Ron Paul is NOT a libertarian.
    Even Nader doesn’t get MSM.
    Your challenge to outdo Root cannot be done-by a real libertarian.
    Again for the umpteenth time, Root is NOT a libertarian.

  63. paulie Post author

    How many libertarians are actually trying as hard as Root is to get media?

    Don’t tell me it can’t be done.

    I’ve been able to get local media just by picking up the phone and calling them. I can get on local TV, talk radio, or the front page of the newspaper any time I want, as well as the letters to the editor.

    I’ve seen Carol Moore on Nightline.

    I’ve posted stories here of Starchild in major media.

    It can be done. Pick up the damn phone and call them. Follow the steps @ comment 9 and see where it gets you instead of telling me it can’t be done.

    I’ve seen a teenager, working as a volunteer to get experience, place Charles Jay of the Boston Tea Party and Brian Moore of the Socialist Party – both on the ballot in very few states – in major media (check IPR archives for some of the clips). He didn’t even use the phone, he did everything over email.

    Of course it can’t be done if you assume it can’t be done and don’t try.

    How many people here have $100 they contribute toward a media booking fund? How many can make themselves available for interviews? How many can do booking as a volunteer? Etc.

    Re-read comment #9 and think about what you can do, and what you may be able to get other people to do.

    Sitting and saying it can’t be done is a lot easier, I’ll give you that much.

  64. @73 Focus_on_unity_stop_silly_arguing

    LG, once again you are focusing on minutia, ignoring the big principle which is that a divisive minor political party which expends, rather depletes, its very limited energies and time on internal carping and irrelevant issues is destined to never have any meaningful impact upon the desperate political situation we are in today.

    You don’t seem to understand that this country is on the fast track to repeat post WWI Germany’s wonderful footprint on history, and that if things are not changed very much very quickly, you will not only find yourself unable to exercise libertarian pursuits, you will not be able to voice libertarian thoughts, and in fact, you may find yourself targeted as a danger to the status quo. The security apparatus of our government is expanding exponentially, and has already admitted targeting libertarians such as Ron Paul supporters.

    Time is very short, it is imperative that all libertarians focus on that which we can mutually agree upon, rather than fighting over peripheral differences.

  65. Michael H. Wilson

    77 can you support this comment you made; “The security apparatus of our government is expanding exponentially, and has already admitted targeting libertarians such as Ron Paul supporters”

    It would be nice to use that info in our news letter.
    Tks

  66. paulie Post author

    NF 79 I’ll put it in the comments here for now in case you or anybody can’t wait to comment, I don’t feel like doing all the tags and crap right now, I’ll try to do that sometime this afternoon or evening, or maybe one of our other writers will first…..


    A Teachable Moment: How Obama Would Solve the NFL Labor Crisis

    By Wayne Allyn Root, Former Libertarian Vice Presidential Nominee and Best-Selling Author of “The Conscience of a Libertarian”

    Some are now suggesting that President Obama get involved in the NFL strike talks. I was his college classmate at Columbia University and have studied his political career for years. My record of predicting where Obama will come down on the side of an issue and what lie he will tell to rationalize his decision is near perfect. Just call me “The Obama Whisperer.”

    Here’s a quick lesson in how he thinks:

    First, Obama is a Socialist who believes in the redistribution of wealth. He hates those who have worked hard and earned money — unless they give him massive campaign contributions.

    Second, he’s a union hack, who will do anything for unions, even break the law and violate the Constitution — at least for those unions that give him massive campaign contributions. Don’t believe me? Ask the shareholders and banks that loaned billions to GM and Chrysler, only to see their ownership and legal contracts erased by Obama in order to hand ownership to the unions that destroyed the automakers in the first place.

    Third, like a true Socialist, Obama believes government has the solution to every problem, and that solution is more government and higher taxes, combined with a prescription of social justice and affirmative action.

    Based on his lifetime body of work, here is how I predict Obama will settle the NFL labor crisis:

    Like ”Cap and Trade,” Obama will produce scientists to declare that football is a dangerous sport threatening the health and welfare of the players. He’ll then pass “Helmet and Trade” legislation putting government in control of football — setting salaries for players, prices for fans, and giving new powers to the NFL players union.

    Never letting a serious crisis go to waste, Obama will then pass legislation called “NFLCare” that demands that the NFL pay for the lifetime pension and healthcare of the players, paid for with massive new taxes on the NFL and its fans. The doctors who treat the NFL players will have caps placed on their fees. Of course this will lead to shortages of doctors and rationing, so eventually NFL Limb Panels will be set up to decide who gets a new knee, or shoulder, or hip. These decisions will be based on years of player life expectancy remaining, or the size of contributions to the Obama campaign.

    He’ll then decide what income is “fair” and what is “greedy,” placing wage controls on players. Obama will say, “There is no longer a need for million dollar salaries. After all, just like government union employees, I’m going to guarantee NFL players — even the failed ones — pensions of $100K per year for life and free healthcare. We’ll call it ’NFL Tenure.’ It’s like a government job — a guaranteed job for life, without any performance necessary.”

    Like American businesses, players will react to lower wages and higher taxes by leaving the USA to play football in Canada and Europe, destroying the NFL. Obama, of course, will blame the “greedy NFL owners” for sending American jobs offshore and pass a huge tariff on each player leaving the USA.

    Then, Obama will state proudly, “We’ve got to spread the wealth around” and pass ”NFL Financial Reform,” requiring ninety-five percent of revenues be redistributed to employees, vendors, peanut salesmen, ticket takers, security, and parking lot attendants. A peanut vendor will be seen crying and telling a reporter, “I’ll never have to worry about paying rent or putting gas in my car ever again.”

    But, Obama is just getting started. Fifty percent ownership of NFL teams will be turned over to the Players Union, just as in the case of GM and Chrysler. Obama will state, “The working man needs a stake in his own future.” This legislation will also demand teams have a minority owner in their ownership group and 50% of all NFL contracts be awarded to minority owned businesses. Not losing the opportunity for a teachable moment, Obama will say, “The NFL must reflect the diversity of America. It is time for the ownership, players, and contractors to reflect social justice. To get this party started correctly, I have fired Commissioner Goodall and appointed Reverend Al Sharpton as Commissioner of the NFL.”

    Next he’ll pass rules limiting work hours for players and declare off-season workouts as “overtime.” The White House will set up a Toll Free (800) number for players to call the Bar Association, one of Obama’s leading contributors, who will provide lawyers free of charge to sue NFL teams within hours of a reported violation.

    Finally, various new taxes will be imposed including “draft taxes,” “trade taxes,” and a “championship tax” (doubling taxes on Playoff teams; tripling on the Super Bowl winner). He’ll impose VAT taxes on everything bought at the games and a “wealthy fan confiscation tax” for prime, sideline seats. Skyboxes, of course, will be seized for the use of government officials, bureaucrats, politicians, and Obama campaign contributors.

    At this point NFL owners will plead insolvency and threaten bankruptcy. Obama will ask “So, what’s in it for me?” Understanding EXACTLY what he means the owners will make massive campaign contributions to Obama and receive billion dollar bailouts from the U.S. Treasury as part of his next “stimulus” package.

    Problem solved. NFL Strike/lockout averted. Obama has done it again. How did business survive before Obama?

    Wayne Allyn Root is a former Libertarian Vice Presidential nominee. He now serves as Chairman of the Libertarian National Congressional Committee. He is the best-selling author of “The Conscience of a Libertarian: Empowering the Citizen Revolution with God, Guns, Gold & Tax Cuts.” His web site: http://www.ROOTforAmerica.com

  67. Mike B.

    I really could see Wayne running under the Republican ticket….maybe as a Republican Liberty Caucus (libertarian-leaning Republicans) member.

    I think he is a better fit there than the LP.

    Just my two cents.

  68. Robert Milnes

    @76, I beg your pardon.
    Fox is cable. IIRC you called for libertarians to outdo Root.
    That means MSM.
    Even cable is extremely difficult.
    You are just rationizing your coddling of Root.
    No, let’s not coddle him & struggle to outdo/outmaneuver him.
    Purge him!

  69. paulie Post author

    @ Lee 87 OK…let’s work on that.

    Duensing @ 69 I think there would be a large audience for a debate between myself, Lee, Burns, and WAR. I’ll even offer up time on my radio show if we can get two or more of the other candidates to participate.

    Burns would be pretty foolish not to participate, so I would think we can get at least 3 on there, even if Wayne says no.

    The only thing is that if Jim is in the debate someone else has to be the moderator, he can’t control the microphone.

    I’ll email all 4 of you to see if we can coordinate schedules and anything else that has to be worked out.

  70. paulie Post author

    Milnes @ 86

    Everybody has to lead by example at something. Wayne is leading by example at doing his thing. Your thing is purging, and you have led by example by purging yourself….since you are not a Libertarian Party member, not a libertarian ideologically (and don’t claim to be), and in your own words “disabled, unemployed, broke, depressed, mentally ill, no significant other, not tech savvy, [..] no campaign contributions, no volunteers or staff, not on any ballots.”

    Thanks for being a leader, not a follower 🙂

  71. JT

    Geez, Paulie, Milnes describing his life almost makes me feel sorry for him and want to help him out. Then I think about how he often calls us losers and assholes, and I don’t.

  72. LibertarianGirl

    PandL_peace & love // Mar 7, 2011 at 3:10 pm

    last i checked u could find the video on nevadas myspace page.. Thats if they still have one idk.

    me_ well I think you mean clark county LP , i created that group , just like i created the county FB group , I was pressured into turning both over to Kris McKinster , I shit you not , 1 day after the state convention. I was threatened with action from the excom ( im sure u can figure out who did the threatening) and anyways I figured the only thing more pathetic than an excom that does NOTHING , would be to hang onto groups I could easily recreate. #1 , nobody uses myspace anymore and #2 the FB group had less than 50 members. I already have more in my Libertarians for saving Nevadas Brothels.

  73. LibertarianGirl

    @73 Focus_on_unity_stop_silly_arguing // Mar 7, 2011 at 3:40 pm

    LG, once again you are focusing on minutia, ignoring the big principle which is that a divisive minor political party which expends, rather depletes, its very limited energies and time on internal carping and irrelevant issues is destined to never have any meaningful impact upon the desperate political situation we are in today.

    You don’t seem to understand that this country is on the fast track to repeat post WWI Germany’s wonderful footprint on history, and that if things are not changed very much very quickly, you will not only find yourself unable to exercise libertarian pursuits, you will not be able to voice libertarian thoughts, and in fact, you may find yourself targeted as a danger to the status quo. The security apparatus of our government is expanding exponentially, and has already admitted targeting libertarians such as Ron Paul supporters.

    Time is very short, it is imperative that all libertarians focus on that which we can mutually agree upon, rather than fighting over peripheral differences.

    me_ huh? i dont focus on petty arguing and have no idea what your talking about. Im nice to everyone , thats why certain factions w/in my state party dont like me , because I like to be nice to evryone and hate conflict.

  74. paulie Post author

    Geez, Paulie, Milnes describing his life almost makes me feel sorry for him and want to help him out.

    He doesn’t want any help, at least not psychiatric help or help in actually getting his life together, just money (“contributions”) and people to try to make his political fantasies into reality. A few of us have tried and he’s not interested in any real help.

    If you (or others) do feel like sending money to someone, you could send some to me; I think I provide more quality entertainment value around here, at least.

    travellingcircus at gmail.com (don’t forget two Ls) works for paypal, if the mood strikes anyone who is reading and has a few spare bucks.

  75. paulie Post author

    Sheen is looking for interns for social media , P , u could sooo do this job

    Small problem with that, I’m straight, and I think Sheen is too…

    LOL No, Sheen is looking for pussy, as usual

    Oh yeah, lest I forget, Milnes also wants a female libertarian “running mate.”

    For that matter I could use some entertainment myself.

    Hopefully this will entertain some of you. You know who you are. The rest can of course just skip it.

  76. JT

    Milnes: “Don’t forget morons, lemmings, Paultards etc.”

    Yes, I did forget those.

    Paulie: “If you (or others) do feel like sending money to someone, you could send some to me; I think I provide more quality entertainment value around here, at least.”

    Hmmm…I’m not sure about that, Paulie. I laugh at almost all of Milnes’ posts. Sometimes you post something funny, but he has a much greater post-laugh ratio, albeit unintentional.

  77. paulie Post author

    “If you (or others) do feel like sending money to someone, you could send some to me; I think I provide more quality entertainment value around here, at least.”

    Hmmm…I’m not sure about that, Paulie.

    Hmmm, well, it’s subjective I guess. Today at least some IPR writers are posting a bunch of articles even when I’m not, but usually that doesn’t happen. To add up my value here you have to take not just my posts (serious, funny and otherwise) but also all the people that respond to them, or respond to the people that respond to me, etc., that wouldn’t be doing that if I was not here.

    How many of these conversations take place at all when I’m not around? I’ve checked in here the times when I’m not here much, and it tends to be pretty dead.

  78. Tom Blanton

    Paulie writes:

    I’m more interested in seeing other Libertarians rise to the occasion and get media.

    Paulie, you’re not a dumb ass. So, I’m thinking that that you must be aware that the type of media exposure that Wayne Root gets is because of his message.

    His message parrots the message that right-wing media likes to feature. This is why he gets on FOX, all the right-wing radio shows, and is a featured writer on NewsMax.

    Now, you’d like to see other libertarians compete with Root and get some media. Great, but to compete with Root, libertarians will have to Boortz themselves or get Rootified in order to be acceptable to the right-wing media that is willing to promote Root.

    There is another faction of media, primarily on the internet and in print media, that is left-leaning. The problem is that the left media is not so accommodating to libertarians. There are some exceptions, but rather few.

    The possibility remains that if a “libertarian” were to go to the left-wing media and start talking about raising taxes, increasing government regulations to protect citizens, having government engage in activities that are now handled by private enterprise, etc., perhaps left-wing media would feature more libertarians.

    But then you would have the same problem there is with Root, except instead of a libertarian spewing right-wing rhetoric, you would have a libertarian spewing left-wing rhetoric.

    Libertarians seem to be so myopic about the barriers erected by their political opponents and so narcissistic about themselves, they are unable to come to grips with the outside influences that marginalize libertarianism and keep certain ideas away from public consumption.

    When libertarians control billions of dollars worth of advertising money through their corporate sponsors, and when libertarian legislators are able to exert influence over the media through legislative means, and when corporate America owes libertarians favors for favorable legislation, subsidies, etc. thrown their way, then we will see the media become friendly to libertarianism – only it won’t be libertarianism, it will most likely be corporatism wrapped in a flag and waving a constitution (much like the “conservatism” we see now).

    LP members in particular crave political power so much that it doesn’t seem to occur to them that to “do real politics” will require them to abandon libertarianism in all aspects except rhetoric.

    Doing politics is all about redistributing wealth and income, doing favors for groups and classes of people, forming alliances with large corporations and other special interests, and generally becoming corrupt to the core and becoming experts in managing perceptions through propaganda and lies.

    The media will never be a game-changer for standard libertarianism. If it takes becoming a Reagan libertarian to make minor inroads into right-wing media (that so far haven’t produced any tangible results for libertarians over the years), then libertarians would probably be better off just joining the GOP.

    So much for competing with Root for media attention. So, let’s quit pretending that what he is selling is standard libertarianism when he himself claims to be selling “Reagan libertarianism.”

    There’s not much use in pretending that media is going to feature proponents on standard libertarianism unless libertarians are willing to be treated like Charlie Sheen.

  79. paulie Post author

    TB

    Paulie, you’re not a dumb ass.

    Depends on who you ask. If you ask me, I’d say it depends on when and where.

    The rest of your post is just a better written version of Milnes’ argument; see my response to him, above.

    This can’t do stuff….says who?

    We can’t get in the media? Yes we can.

    I’ve done it locally.

    Starchild, Carol Moore, Charles Jay and others have done it nationally.

    Ernie Hancock has gotten plenty of media, for himself and others.

    Alternative weeklies and college papers are really easy to get into. That’s what a lot of lefties read. I get into those any time I want. I’ve seen plenty of letters and columns by libertarians in them. I suspect that if more were sent their way, they’d print more.

    Yeah, Root gets more media. But he tries to get media harder.

    Instead of claiming we can'[t do it, how about actually trying?

    And not just once or a couple of times – over and over again, relentlessly, building on contacts again and again, doing followups.

    And not being boring.

    Duensing on statewide public affairs TV…did I watch that and post it on IPR, or was that my imagination?

    Don’t tell me the media only show you if they agree with you. That’s just an excuse. Excuses are a dime a dozen.

    For that matter Wayne has gotten left wing media. Hartmann, for instance. Barr did Netroots, and lots of other things.

    Harry Browne got all kinds of media. Read his archived campaign journals. By today’s standards, he was a very radical libertarian.

    No, we don’t have to abandon our message or views, and no we don’t have to accept being irrelevant and ignored,

    Enough excuses.

    Stop saying you can’t and start doing. The first step is the hardest.

    And yeah, not all the media will be friendly. Accept it and deal with it.

    First they ignore you, then they fight you, then you win.

    Time to stop being ignored.

  80. paulie Post author

    Doing politics is all about redistributing wealth and income, doing favors for groups and classes of people, forming alliances with large corporations and other special interests, and generally becoming corrupt to the core and becoming experts in managing perceptions through propaganda and lies.

    Change the game. It can be done.

    The media will never be a game-changer for standard libertarianism.

    It’s easy to say words like never and can’t. But what do they accomplish?

    There’s not much use in pretending that media is going to feature proponents on standard libertarianism unless libertarians are willing to be treated like Charlie Sheen.

    Guess what… a lot of people are hearing what Sheen has to say. Some of them like it. Others not so much. Imagine if Sheen was a candidate, and part of a brand with hundreds of other candidates, a national office, weekly or monthly meetings in most cities of any size, and an entire political movement with numerous issue organizations, think tanks, etc?

    Harry Browne was not always treated like Sheen. Sometimes he was. He dealt with it. So can others. I hope.

  81. Tom Blanton

    Harry Browne was radical and he did get some good media. He was a great speaker and didn’t try to capitalize on conservative anger and fear.

    I’m not saying that libertarians can’t get media exposure, especially in local outlets. But, realistically, the amount of media is so minimal as to practically be non-existent – even for Root.

    Watch the evening news 100 nights in a row and tell me how many libertarians you see, if you see ANY, how many seconds do they appear on screen?

    Meet the Press? Ha!

    Right-wing talk radio? Maybe a few minutes devoted to a libertarian conservative in a 2-hour show once a week, if that.

    Washington Post, New York Times, Newsweek, Time Magazine?

    C’mon, man – get real. Libertarians are damned lucky if they get a tenth of 1% of the media pie. The rest is Democrats and Republicans. 24/7/365.

    Having a positive attitude is just wonderful, but all I’m saying is that without spending literally hundreds of millions for ads AND without getting 99.9% of the media news coverage like the Dems and GOP, you can’t expect to sell much of anything in the media.

    For folks trying to make a living off politics, the game has different dynamics than for those seeking change through politics. If you’re looking for change, it is time to do things differently than the GOP and Dems. In the current environment, the media is the enemy – that is if you want political change.

    Game, hoax or jam the media. To expect them to act as a messenger for change is a pipe dream – unless you’ve got a few billion to spend.

  82. paulie Post author

    Harry Browne was radical and he did get some good media. He was a great speaker and didn’t try to capitalize on conservative anger and fear.

    I’m not saying that libertarians can’t get media exposure, especially in local outlets. But, realistically, the amount of media is so minimal as to practically be non-existent – even for Root.

    Fine, you have to start somewhere and get what you can get. What if we had ten Harry Brownes in our party? A hundred? How about just one or two, right now?

    Watch the evening news 100 nights in a row and tell me how many libertarians you see, if you see ANY, how many seconds do they appear on screen?

    How many try? You don’t start by getting to the top in most cases. Build from the bottom up.

    I don’t usually watch MSM news. Usually I have the TV off, I pretty much only watch it if I’m splitting a motel room, and then I really only watch it because I can’t stand to be there when someone else has the TV on and I’m not in charge of what’s on it. That, and I like music videos in the morning to get me going. Other than that I would just as soon not have it on at all. I’ve even turned TVs around to have them face the wall and shot them dead in the past.

    On my last trip though, up to Maryland from November last year til January this year, my computer usage was mostly restricted to the motel lobby, and they had a TV in there that I was not in control of. I put up with it very grudgingly only due to my internet addiction.

    So, I was pleasantly surprised to see James Babb on there. I didn’t switch to that, it was on on its own, so that was cool. For any of you who don’t know, Babb is a radical Libertarian. He was talking about the pre-Thanksgiving airport protests.

    Now imagine a hundred Libertarians and libertarians organizing like that around issues. Let your imagination really run free. Imagine a thousand. Ten thousand. A hundred thousand. How many libertarians are there in America? Several million, I bet. There’s 15k that are dues paying LP members, 100 k plus that have been at one time or another and/or signed the LP pledge, millions that have voted for one or more Libertarians, millions more who don’t vote and oppose government. Could we get a few hundred or a few thousand to be as active in pursuing media opportunities as Wayne is? How about just a dozen?

    One?

    Libertarians are damned lucky if they get a tenth of 1% of the media pie.

    How often do Libertarians try? How persistently?

    Do you expect the media to just come to the Libertarians?

    Even when the media do come to the Libertarians, half the time they get no reply. Maybe more than half.

    Being “media” of a sort i can understand their perspective better.

    On another post today we have a gentleman complaining that IPR posts too many Root pieces and not enough by Hinkle or other LNC members, as if there’s a quota system or as if we are Root partisans. To which I can only say: we can’t post what people don’t send us.

    To expect them to act as a messenger for change is a pipe dream – unless you’ve got a few billion to spend.

    There are plenty of media opportunities we could have – if Libertarians tried to get them.

    Radical Libertarians even.

    Do I expect all media to be friendly? No, actually if we start getting traction some might turn a lot more unfriendly. But it will never be unanimous, unless the government clamps down, and that’s becoming less and less effective, as we are seeing in the Arab world.

    Right now a lot of them would give us freebees because they don’t even see us as a threat. If we only tried.

    If we only had a heart and a brain.

    Read Browne’s campaign journal from 2000…the unexpected opportunities, the many chances to make lemonade of lemons.

    Life is full of opportunities if you don’t operate on the assumption that they are not there.

  83. Harris Field

    Paulie must be some kind of Tony Robbins fan or something, maybe that’s why he likes Wayne Root so much. Does Paulie own a Juicer, some ShamWow and lots of products As Seen On TV! (TM)? This power of positive thinking stuff is all crap. “The natural political party they don’t want you to know about!” LOL. What a joke.

    Face it: the LP has always been nothing, and will always be nothing. You may be 100% correct, but the power of corruption is too great, and you will never be allowed in the media. Ever.

    Face it: the conspiracy is too strong. You will always, always lose. Stop trying. Join the power structure. It’s hopeless. Nothing will ever go your way. You are losers, and you will always lose. Time to accept the reality and surrender.

  84. Porn Again Christian

    Paulie and Harris Field are both correct. Which ever one you go with will turn out to be right.

  85. Robert Capozzi

    tb105: Doing politics is all about redistributing wealth and income, doing favors for groups and classes of people, forming alliances with large corporations and other special interests, and generally becoming corrupt to the core and becoming experts in managing perceptions through propaganda and lies.

    me: I agree that “standard” L-ism is a sure-fire way to get Sheened. (btw, does anyone recall that Sheen is tight with Alex Jones, and is a Truther?)

    To engage the center, where most are taxpayers, not tax consumers, I happen to believe an L message can resonate. Most lose with US militarism…stop the losing. Most lose with corporate welfarism….stop the losing. Most lose with ObamaCare…stop the losing.

    Sheen actually is onto something, although it’s about HIM “winning.” A REAL LP would become facile at setting up win/wins, I’d say achievable win/wins.

    Or we can continue to be an underground movement of no consequence.

  86. Robert Capozzi

    tb108: Game, hoax or jam the media. To expect them to act as a messenger for change is a pipe dream – unless you’ve got a few billion to spend.

    me: Are you paying attention? Look at North Africa. Look at the former SU. The change agents didn’t have billions. The message has be be one that resonates, though. Truth actually does set you free, but IDing truth requires some facility and ability to ID chaff, and to let the chaff go.

  87. Robert Capozzi

    Assange might be another example.

    As the most (epistemologically) radical L that I know, I’m not feeling inspired to taunt the State in this manner, but I admire those willing to do so.

    If the Fields and Blantons of the world want to hold up in Galt’s Gulch, that’s on them. They can invite us to join them, but instead they seem to condemn those of us who take the “Orange Line Mafia” approach of attempting to engage the center from the edge. It’s all good, but I do suggest they waste their energy whining at those of us who choose to engage and choose to not engage in grandiosity.

    Whining is not winning.

    IMO.

  88. Robert Capozzi

    Anticipating the charge of hypocrisy, I whine about whining because I would like to see the whining go away. Whether counter-whining is the highest and best use of MY energy is difficult to say.

    If the pool is too alkaline, adding some acid seems (sorry!) indicated.

  89. paulie Post author

    whine about whining

    Whining about whining just leads to whining about whining about whining, etc.

    You lead by whatever example you set, more than by what you say.

  90. Harris Field

    You didn’t get it, did you? One more time. Face it: the conspiracy is too strong. You will always, always lose. Stop trying. Join the power structure. It’s hopeless. Nothing will ever go your way. You are losers, and you will always lose. Time to accept the reality and surrender. No Galt’s Gulch, no LP, no Ron Paul, no nothing. game over; libertarians lost, the end. The sooner you all accept it the better.

  91. paulie Post author

    If you’re right, I’d rather go out fighting.

    If you’re wrong, I’d rather not let that be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

  92. Paulie sucks ROOT - ipr SUCKS W.A.R.

    Paulie sucks ROOT – ipr SUCKS W.A.R.

    War sucks
    W.A.R. sucks
    Root sucks

    IPR sucks Root
    IPR sucks W.A.R.
    IPR sucks W.A.R.’s root

    Paulie sucks Root
    Paulie sucks W.A.R.
    Paulie sucks W.A.R.’s root

    EVIL paulie EVIL
    EVIL ipr EVIL

    W.A.R. is EVIL – W.A.R. Sucks – Root is evil – War is evil – War sucks – Root sucks – War sucks blood – W.A.R. Sucks blood from LP – Root sucks blood from LP.

    Blood of tyrants – Root supports tyrants – Root against workers strike – Workers strike against tyrants in middle east, midwest – W.A.R. supports tyrants, repression in middle east, midwest – I.P.R. supports W.A.R., repression, tyranny. Paulie supports W.A.R., repression, tyranny.

    Paulie gets gold STARR from Aaron STARR. Yellow Starr.

    IPR censors – weapon of tyrants – restrict information – like in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, oppressors, restrict information, restrict truth.

    Paulie censors – weapon of tyrants – restrict information – like in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, oppressors, restrict information, restrict truth.

    Blood of tyrants; tree of liberty.

    LP Tree of Liberty will grow wRIGHTs again Amen. Remove Paulie, Starr, W.A.R. warmongers rootsuckers anti-worker censors. Off with their heads. New heads for LP, new heads for IPR.

    Remove Rot – Remove Evil – Remove War – Remove W.A.R. – Remove warmongers – Remove WARmongers – Remove Root – Remove Starr – Remove Paulie – Remove censors, censorship, tyrants, tyrant supporters – IPR Tree of Liberty will grow wRIGHTs again Amen. LP Tree of Liberty will grow wRIGHTs again Amen. Amen. Amen.

    Amen.

  93. JT

    Paulie: “If you (or others) do feel like sending money to someone, you could send some to me; I think I provide more quality entertainment value around here, at least.”

    Me: “Hmmm…I’m not sure about that, Paulie. I laugh at almost all of Milnes’ posts. Sometimes you post something funny, but he has a much greater post-laugh ratio, albeit unintentional.”

    Paulie: “Hmmm, well, it’s subjective I guess. Today at least some IPR writers are posting a bunch of articles even when I’m not, but usually that doesn’t happen. To add up my value here you have to take not just my posts (serious, funny and otherwise) but also all the people that respond to them, or respond to the people that respond to me, etc., that wouldn’t be doing that if I was not here.”

    I wasn’t talking about your overall value here, Paulie. You referred to your “entertainment value.” I think your “information value” is much higher than anyone else at IPR. But as far as pure entertainment goes, I’d give the edge to Milnes. His delusional, hateful posts are just too funny.

  94. Committee to fire libertzionists...fire fire burn burn

    Libertzionists are fake libertarians

    They support:

    Israel First, America Last
    War for Israel
    War for Oil
    Zionist Bankers and their economic system
    Zionist media and its lies

    IPR libertzionists:

    Bruce Cohan
    Aaron Starr
    Wayne Root
    Paulie “Starr Pupil” Fraudankel

    Purge Libertzionists from LP
    Purge Libertzionists from IPR

    Zionist Bruce Cohan

    Bad for IPR
    Should be fired
    Embarrassment
    Harasses women
    Many members felt he should be kicked out of LP
    Bizarre behavior
    Evil Root Sucker
    Glenn Beck Republican
    Pro-War, Pro-Empire
    Mental Problems/Pill Addict
    Known Liar
    Jewish National Socialist
    Israel First, America Last
    Egotistical smarmy prick
    Hypocrite, lectures others about manners, has none himself
    Closet case

    Should be fired now…believe me now…or regret it later.

    AshkeNazi Khazar “Jew” Paulie

    Bad for IPR

    Defends Root, Cohan, Starr
    Fat overweight pig
    Felon
    Drug addict/dealer
    Jailbird
    Convicted: forgery, fraud, ID theft, election crimes, possession and distribution of narcotics, public intoxication, driving without a license, trespassing, aggressive panhandling
    Plagiarist
    Censor
    Porn and prostitute monger
    Beggar
    Liar
    Mercenary
    Thief
    Ass kisser
    Talmudic filth
    Defends fellow criminals
    Whining crybaby
    Hypocrite
    Troll
    Spammer
    Kosher Constitutionalist
    Secret Soviet
    Bad personal hygiene (dirty filthy pig)
    Verbally pugnacious, physically cowardly
    Annoying, pushy typical New Yawk Yid

    Fire “Paulie” Pankel Fraudankel from IPR

    Root-Starr-Cohan-Fraudankel

    ZioFascist AshkeNazi Khazar “Jew” Kabalic Cabal…Libertzionists not Libertarians…Fire fire heh heh burn burn ….

  95. Robert Capozzi

    p119: Whining about whining just leads to whining about whining about whining, etc. You lead by whatever example you set, more than by what you say.

    me: Generally, I completely agree. My current resource constraints, coupled with my sense that some fundamental errors were made at the point of inception, leads me to take my current counter-whining tactic. There is no TAAAList manifesto, no meaningful, relevant case for relativistic L-ism other than my dot connections between Lao Tzu, Hayek and Nozick. My colleagues remain in the grips of absolutist thinking, which may work for them, but — having shared that circuitry — I cannot imagine it can work except as a construct in a mind.

    Challenging dysfunctional premises feels like the best tack at the moment. I do my best to avoid personal attacks in this endeavor. More productive avenues may arise over time.

  96. Robert Capozzi

    Reflecting on my last post, I want to clarify that I don’t think that the absolutist Ls are “wrong.” They aren’t. It’s my observation, though, that absolutists are using base 5 in a base 10 world. Base 5 may well be the superior convention…that’s not for me to say. But base 5 pronouncements often don’t ring true for those accustomed to base-10-math equations.

    Absolutist and relativist Ls often reach the same conclusion. Sometimes they don’t. Relativists, however, are more likely to speak in language that more non-Ls relate to.

    Absolutist and relativist L often attack each other’s views. Most of the attacks are based on an entirely different system of thought.

    Can that make for a coalition? Yes. But burying the difference in thought systems is not IMO healthy. It requires a real tabling of the difference in thought systems and the attendant agendas, some of which are hidden.

    When the thought systems clash, my interpretation is that the clash is based on a lack of understanding of the other “camp’s” thought system. It’s often subterranean. Rather than deny it, my purpose is to bring the fundamental thought system’s difference to light. My hope is that absolutists and relativists can “get along” by agreeing that shared short-term intention makes for coalition, even if there is likely to be a long-term difference in agendas.

  97. JT

    Robert: “Absolutist and relativist L often attack each other’s views.”

    Based on your posts here, you’re one of the Libertarians doing the attacking.

  98. LibertarianGirl

    there you go again spelling Bruce Cohens name wrong , i know he can be an antagonist at times but misspelling his name when you know how to spell it correctly borders on anti-semitism. not quite there but very rude. Cohen is an ancient Jewish name meaning temple priests , Cohan is an American songwriter and playwright. I think u are spelling it wrong to denigrate that fact and thats just fucking wrong

  99. LibertarianGirl

    “p119: Whining about whining just leads to whining about whining about whining, etc. You lead by whatever example you set, more than by what you say.”

    me_The Pity Train has just derailed at the intersection of Suck It Up & Move On and crashed into We All Have Problems before coming to a complete stop at Get Over It. Reporting LIVE from Quitchur Complaining!

  100. paulie Post author

    I wasn’t going to comment on 125 but since it’s being discussed, I thought I would translate it into standard American English. Hope this helps:

    “Heil…oops, I mean hi! I’m a Jew-hater and I think you should be too. ”

    “Look, honestly, I have no idea what I am talking about here. For some reason I think my racist and state-socialist views are libertarian. Don’t ask me why. As a collectivist, I believe in collective guilt for all Jews, and an economy controlled by the state allegedly acting on behalf of the so called “working class.” For me, that’s what libertarianism is really all about.”

    “But now let me tell you a bit about myself. My daddy was Rainman. He went to Woodstock, fell in a big tub of brown acid and came out as the Joker from Batman. A few years later he ran into Eric Cartman from South Park and raped him in the ass. Some turds came out, and I was one of them. And that’s how I came to be, a collectivist racialist state socialist “libertarian”.”

    “We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion…”

  101. LibertarianGirl

    i take that back calling out all the known Jewish people on this blog and at the end saying “fire fire burn burn ” IS ANTI-SEMITISM and totally unacceptable , so all I can say is
    go fuck yourself

  102. Robert Capozzi

    jt128: Based on your posts here, you’re one of the Libertarians doing the attacking.

    me: Sorry you feel that way. I certainly challenge ideas that I find sub-optimal. I do my best to keep it civil. I don’t always succeed. I certainly don’t recall ever saying that an absolutist is NOT L. I see absolutists say that other Ls are not L with some frequency. Such a writing off may well be inherent in one being an absolutist…my way or the highway?

  103. Here's a radical idea

    love him or hate him, that ole Wayne sure does get the hits on IPR. Put his name up on a news release and it will get 100 or more comments. Anyone else posting will be in the 0 to 30 range.
    KEEP POUNDING IT OUT DUDE !

  104. Porn Again Christian

    Jim Duensing tot over 300.

    Maybe he should send stuff to IPR more often.

  105. Jill Pyeatt

    LG @ 131: I love your last sentence, and made it my Facebook status. I hope that’s okay!

  106. JT

    Robert: “I certainly challenge ideas that I find sub-optimal. I do my best to keep it civil.”

    Not really. There are two kinds of attack: aggressive and passive-aggressive. Your method of attack isn’t to curse at or hysterically denounce anyone (like a Don Grundmann or a Robert Milnes). Instead, you use sarcastic comments and insulting implications. That’s not civil–it’s just a subdued way of belittling other people.

    Robert: “I certainly don’t recall ever saying that an absolutist is NOT L.”

    Well, what sense would that make? That’s like someone who eats no animal products except for chicken and eggs calling someone else who never eats animal products “not a vegan.”

    And lest you mischaracterize me after this post, I do endorse transitional measures to a system in which government only secures individual rights.

  107. Robert Capozzi

    jt139: There are two kinds of attack: aggressive and passive-aggressive. …Instead, you use sarcastic comments and insulting implications.

    me: Again, sorry you feel that way. Are you suggesting that disagreement is always attack? And that “attack” always entails either aggressiveness or passive-aggressiveness? At the risk of being accused of “sarcasm,” I can’t say I agree. I disagree with absolutism, but I respect that some are absolutists. As a former absolutist myself, I share my perspective and I certainly challenge the premises that absolutists (formerly my own) hold dear. Such as…

    jt: That’s like someone who eats no animal products except for chicken and eggs calling someone else who never eats animal products “not a vegan.”

    me: “Vegan” is a label for a discrete set of behaviors. “Libertarian” is a label for a more abstract set of ideas, not behavior. If your premise is that L is a set of SPECIFIC ideas, then we simply disagree. It seems clear to me that — even among absolutist Ls — the set of ideas and their application have some variability. The variability among all Ls — absolutists and relativists — is even wider. What seems to be the common thread among Ls is a desire to see government smaller on an across-the-board basis, at least on net over time. My definition is broader than yours is, I think it’s fair to say, yes?

    btw, even I can be “absolutist” on some matters. I cannot imagine an instance in which I would say capital punishment is justified.

    Yet I’d also maintain that I can and have supported Ls who “deviate” from my view. This may seem “unprincipled” to you, does it? I’d say it’s not, since I am a) more interested in maximizing liberty and minimizing coercion on a net basis, and b) I acknowledge that my sense of virtue is not infused with a sense of infallibility. I accept that I am not perfect in my thoughts or actions, but I am doing my best, as I trust everyone is.

    Would I like to see the LM move away from its strong absolutist orientation? Most certainly! Do I consider this absolutist orientation politically dysfunctional? Near as I can tell, most def’! Are my opinions in these matters unalterably and irrefutably “right” and infused with metaphysical certitude? No.

  108. Robert Capozzi

    jt139: I do endorse transitional measures to a system in which government only secures individual rights.

    me: From a Hayekian, evolutionary perspective, I agree. But I’d go so far as to suggest that that’s all politics is: transitions. “Only” securing “individual rights” is itself an imperfect construct, a general idea. Whatever one might have in mind for this endpoint, odds are really high that what’s in your mind is not going to happen. Another absolutist L may have a slightly different take on what constitutes “individual rights,” and that makes a market in ideas.

    A conservative or a liberal may have another set of ideas as to what constitutes a just social order. Few of them are absolutist about (at least) most of their long-term ideas. Rather, their goals are generally more immediate ones, advancing the ball one yard at a time. They may on occasion throw the ball down field.

    Throwing Hail Marys rarely work out. 3 and out is more like it! Without a ground game or short passing game, Ls — especially absolutists — tend to be ineffective without a short game.

    Dreaming of the next play, the Hail Mary, often leads to a kind of Panglossian or apocalyptic places. ADR. IMO.

  109. JT

    Robert: “Again, sorry you feel that way. Are you suggesting that disagreement is always attack?”

    Obviously not. It depends on HOW you disagree. Just as an example, if you call yourself a “recovering Randist” or a “recovering Rothbardian,” that implies that those individuals who believe in Rand’s or Rothbard’s ideas have some kind of illness.

    Robert: “What seems to be the common thread among Ls is a desire to see government smaller on an across-the-board basis, at least on net over time. My definition is broader than yours is, I think it’s fair to say, yes?”

    That is a common thread among libertarians, so I agree with that. But it’s not a definition, unless you’re saying “libertarian” means someone who wants to see government smaller on an across-the-board basis on net over time. If you’re saying that’s your definition, then I agree it’s broader than what I take to be the meaning of “libertarian.”

    Robert: “Yet I’d also maintain that I can and have supported Ls who “deviate” from my view. This may seem “unprincipled” to you, does it?”

    Not really, because in politics you can usually only back a candidate who’s closest to your views, even if that candidate doesn’t don’t hold all of them. I’m a supporter of Ron Paul because I can see there’s a fundamental difference politically between him and the other 535 voting members of Congress (though one may argue about Rand Paul now). But I still think he’s unlibertarian on some things.

    Robert: ““Only” securing “individual rights” is itself an imperfect construct, a general idea. Whatever one might have in mind for this endpoint, odds are really high that what’s in your mind is not going to happen.”

    History is replete with events that odds are weren’t going to happen. The very birth of America as an independent country with a Constitution intended to strictly limit central government power odds are wasn’t going to happen.

    Robert: “Another absolutist L may have a slightly different take on what constitutes “individual rights,” and that makes a market in ideas.”

    Of course they do. A great many people think “freedom” is a synonym for “democracy,” but it’s not.

    Robert: “A conservative or a liberal may have another set of ideas as to what constitutes a just social order.”

    They obviously do.

    Robert: “Throwing Hail Marys rarely work out. 3 and out is more like it! Without a ground game or short passing game, Ls — especially absolutists — tend to be ineffective without a short game.”

    Well now you’re misrepresenting my position again. I specifically said I believe in “short game” transitional measures. But they’re transitions that are still enough to clearly differentiate Libertarians from Republicans and Democrats and with an ultimate goal.

  110. JT

    Me: “I’m a supporter of Ron Paul because I can see there’s a fundamental difference politically between him and the other 535 voting members of Congress (though one may argue about Rand Paul now).”

    That should be the other 534 voting members of Congress.

  111. Robert Capozzi

    jt142: Obviously not. It depends on HOW you disagree. Just as an example, if you call yourself a “recovering Randist” or a “recovering Rothbardian,” that implies that those individuals who believe in Rand’s or Rothbard’s ideas have some kind of illness.

    me: Well, I’ve stopped using some terms, including “recovering,” which I meant in jest.

    jt: That is a common thread among libertarians, so I agree with that. But it’s not a definition, unless you’re saying “libertarian” means someone who wants to see government smaller on an across-the-board basis on net over time. If you’re saying that’s your definition, then I agree it’s broader than what I take to be the meaning of “libertarian.”

    me: It’s my working definition, to the extent I feel the need to define something abstract that is fluid and evolving. You may have to a more precise def.

    jt: History is replete with events that odds are weren’t going to happen. The very birth of America as an independent country with a Constitution intended to strictly limit central government power odds are wasn’t going to happen.

    me: Agreed. Technically, the US was birthed without a Constitution. A nation based more on individual rights was probably inevitable, given the direction that the thought systems were evolving in the 18th c., though.

    jt: Well now you’re misrepresenting my position again. I specifically said I believe in “short game” transitional measures. But they’re transitions that are still enough to clearly differentiate Libertarians from Republicans and Democrats and with an ultimate goal.

    me: Agreed, up to the “ultimate goal” part. Ultimately, Keynes was correct, we are all dead. My emphasis is on plausible steps toward liberty in the here and now. Yours seems to me to be a broader agenda.

  112. JT

    Robert: “Well, I’ve stopped using some terms, including “recovering,” which I meant in jest.”

    Glad to hear it.

    Robert: “Technically, the US was birthed without a Constitution.”

    True. I was viewing those years as a unit. You got my meaning.

    Robert: “A nation based more on individual rights was probably inevitable, given the direction that the thought systems were evolving in the 18th c., though.”

    I don’t think there was anything “inevitable” about it, and I think that statement minimizes what was actually achieved. It took a tremendous amount of courage, determination, and erudition to cast off British rule in the face of the enormous power of the British empire and establish a new system of government (first under the Articles of Confederation, and then under the Constitution).

    Even after that, British officials thought the colonists would come back soon with their tails between their legs when their new experiment failed. We all know what happened.

    Robert: “Ultimately, Keynes was correct, we are all dead.”

    Obviously, everyone dies. But Keynes said this as a rationalization for ignoring the negative long-term consequences of government policies. I hardly think that’s worth quoting.

    Robert: “My emphasis is on plausible steps toward liberty in the here and now. Yours seems to me to be a broader agenda.”

    My emphasis is on more liberty here and now (I’m sure we disagree as to what’s “plausible”) and a truly free society in the future.

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