June 2013 Open Thread

Readers are an absolutely crucial component of the IPR community. Threads on this website often attract substantial amounts of comments, which we sincerely value (except for the trolls perhaps) and help make this website as strong as it is. Every month, we have an open thread, where you can post any news, events and commentary from third parties and independents. Actually, you are welcome post about any topic at all, even if it doesn’t relate to anything else on the website. This thread is for YOU. We at IPR love our readers and need you!

348 thoughts on “June 2013 Open Thread

  1. Catholic Trotskyist

    Concerned Citizen’s is my favorite out of those songs. But to change the mood, there’s this

  2. Concerned Citizen

    The reason I posted the song was to show my optimism that despite all the moral and economic degradation in this country, despite the growth of government, we can have a new start through freedom. It’ll be just like starting over by returning to this nation’s foundations.

  3. Sam Kress

    See, there you go again. We were talking about slavery and rape and you want to make it about “biracial relations”?

  4. Concerned Citizen

    The recent situation in Cleveland shows that those issues sometimes arise. Some anarchists may wish for those to be legal, but we are a nation of laws. Unlike biracial relations, rape and slavery are immoral and must be criminalized.

  5. Sam Kress

    Anarchists don’t wish those to be legal, anarchists believe a polycentric legal order can provide justice better than a government monopoly. Returning to this nation’s foundations as you suggested above, on the other hand, would indeed be returning to when slavery was indeed legal, and rape, while not legal, wasn’t really illegal so long as a man raped his own wife, slaves, or sometimes daughters.

  6. Concerned Citizen

    Limited government is the foundation. I don’t share your fascination with sex crimes. Frankly your desire to bring up that issue reflects a perverted outlook.

  7. Sam Kress

    A rotten foundation whereby adult able bodied straight white property owning men of the dominant denomination in their state could kill, rob, enslave, torture and abuse every one else with impunity and government, social and religious blessing. I realize you aren’t a libertarian, but sadly many libertarians whitewash our past as well.

  8. Sam Kress

    That’s ironic, because as much as your ideology wishes it to be we have never had a limited government.

  9. Sam Kress

    That’s a matter of perspective. If you are LGBT, or a medical marijuana use in a fair number of states, or a recreational marijuana user in a couple of states it has become more limited in some ways that would be important to you.

    Go back a few more decades and you would find many other examples affecting many other people.

  10. Concerned Citizen

    Government is not limited for anybody if government keeps taking our money to spend. Homosexuals want marriage benefits. Fine. But don’t argue that this limits government when it’s just another entitlement to pay. It’s just more government bribery to keep big government in power.

  11. Krzysztof Lesiak Post author

    Tom Stevens says goodbye to IPR:

    Oh, I shall also no longer visit this site and will post no comments.

    Enjoy your life!

    Tom Stevens: Libertarian Party New York City Nominating Convention
    Minutes Released (April 9, 2013)

    Submitted on 2013/05/17 at 2:40 pm

    I have informed the editors of IPR that they no longer have my permission to re-print articles I write on Liberty Lion and elsewhere.

    As I stated before, this “community” is toxic and the fact that defamatory comments can continuously be posted anonymously is
    troublesome.

    I am withdrawing from your company and, as Paulie said in another context, no loss!

  12. Henry Dall

    CC, twist it all you want. Government deporting your wife or husband because you are same gender is not limited government. Government making you choke on your own vomit because it makes your medicine illegal is not limited government. And too many other examples to mention.

  13. Henry Dall

    Stevens is a jerk, but he does have a point about some of the overboard toxicity – anonymous and otherwise.

  14. Concerned Citizen

    Of course though, non-Americans should not be treated immorally. There should be documented rights for all people, but not Constitutional rights for non-Americans.

  15. Catholic Trotskyist

    CC, although John wrote Starting Over as an optimistic song, obviously his optimism was incorrect given what happened to him.

  16. Concerned Citizen

    Though he died, I’m sure he’d be optimistic about our movement. I think we can continue his legacy through the functional fillmore frugal movement.

  17. Dave Terry

    CC@29;”There should be documented rights for all people, but not Constitutional rights for non-Americans.”

    “Documented? How? Are we to have “civil” liberties, that are NOT Constitutional? Are we to have TWO books of law; one for citizens, another
    for non-citizens? What about those “NON American visitors and guests here; don’t they also
    have the same “unalienable” rights that WE have?

  18. From Der Sidelines

    @24:

    Dr. Tom Stevens: May your life be…interesting, when you actually get one….don’t let the door hit you in head/ass on the way out!

    😛

  19. Concerned Citizen

    @32

    Yes. But I was making the statement in the context of the marriage discussion. The SC has declared marriage as a right under substantive due process. I do not feel non-Americans should have this right. Deportations should be done on a case-by-case basis with marriage/relational status as a consideration. Despite this, expanding marriage benefits to include homosexuals expands entitlement spending and expands government as a whole.

  20. Thomas L. Knapp

    I’ve always thought it was silly for IPR to reprint Stevens’s stuff anyway. IPR is supposed to be a political news site, not a showcase for poorly written fiction.

  21. Sam Kress

    “Of course though, non-Americans should not be treated immorally. There should be documented rights for all people, but not Constitutional rights for non-Americans.”

    This is nonsense. The rights the Constitution recognizes have nothing to do with being American or any other nationality. And government forcibly splitting up couples because they don’t recognize some marriages is big government at its worst.

    The same can be said of the right to visit in the hospital, make deathbed and burial decisions, testimony in court, and thousands of other rights that the government violates by failing to recognize some marriages.

    “expanding marriage benefits to include homosexuals expands entitlement spending and expands government as a whole”

    More nonsense. What entitlement spending? Survivor benefits?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_penalty

    And since you brought up “biracial” relationships earlier….which of your arguments against marriage equality would not have applied to such relationships in 1967, when the Supreme Court finally put an end to states outlawing such marriages? Another example of how big government was way too big and way too intrusive in the past.

  22. Concerned Citizen

    You keep repeating the same assertions. I argue that the expansion of government through the expansion of marriage benefits outweighs any effect on immigration policy. Immigration policy is a separate matter.

    Unlike biracial relations, government has no interest in expanding marriage benefits to homosexual couples. Homosexuals cannot procreate “by accident.” No incentive is required to provide a suitable home to raise the illegitiment.

  23. Concerned Citizen

    *no incentive concerning homosexuals exists to provide a suitable environment for illegitimate children. Of course such an incentive may be necessary for heterosexuals.

  24. Sam Kress

    “I argue that the expansion of government through the expansion of marriage benefits”

    What benefits? You didn’t answer the question.

    “. Immigration policy is a separate matter.”

    Not with couples one of whom is an immigrant.

  25. Sam Kress

    “Unlike biracial relations, government has no interest in expanding marriage benefits to homosexual couples.”

    So you would have no problem with a government law keeping straight couples who are too old to have children, or who haven’t furnished test results showing they are both fertile, from getting a marriage license, correct?

    ” Homosexuals cannot procreate “by accident.”

    Wrong again. People who identify primarily as homosexuals and are part of a long term homosexual couple can nevertheless be raped, or cheat, or have straight sex with someone else with the permission of their partner and yet still want to raise the child with the help of their homosexual life partner. What interest does the government have in preventing such children from being raised by two parents with all the normal and customary rights of parents?

  26. Dave Terry

    CC Also overlooks the fact that in approx. 30% of lesbian relationship at least ONE of the women has at least one child from a previous heterosexual marriage or relationship

    For MALE homosexual relationship the average is about 10% and although they rarely have custody, in most cases they are still present in their child’s life a share financial responsibility.

  27. Concerned Citizen

    @41 See “Rights and responsibilities of marriages in the United States” on Wikipedia.

    @42 You cite the exception as if it is the norm, which it clearly is not.

    Equal protection prevents treatment of similarly situated couples. Homosexual and heterosexual couples are not similarly situated.

    @43 The government has an interest in inventivizing that the children have a mother and a father preferably living together. That is the foundation of society.

  28. Dave Terry

    SK @ 18: “That’s ironic, because as much as your ideology wishes it to be we have never had a limited government.

    Nonsensical statement:
    1. Every government we have EVER had in this country is a ‘limited government’ compared to many others throughout history

    2 Every government we have EVER had in this country is NOT a ‘limited government’ compared to what it would “ideally” be.

    TERMS are relative!

  29. SirGwain

    Anyone have any info about the whats going on in the Alaskan Independence Party ?

  30. Sam Kress

    “See “Rights and responsibilities of marriages in the United States” on Wikipedia.”

    You’ve provided no link. I linked to marriage penalty. You have linked to nothing. What benefits? You didn’t answer the question.

    “You cite the exception as if it is the norm, which it clearly is not.”

    There’s millions of those “exceptions.” Yes, millions.

    “Equal protection prevents treatment of similarly situated couples. Homosexual and heterosexual couples are not similarly situated.”

    Yes, they are.

    “The government has an interest in inventivizing that the children have a mother and a father preferably living together.”

    Prove it.

  31. Dave Terry

    CC@4
    SK@5 & 6
    CT@7
    SK@8
    JP@21
    SK@22 &51

    OK guys, I’ll bite!

    What is it with all these black rectangular spaces?

  32. Henry Dall

    I think they’re supposed to be photos of Hannibal Lecter feeding Dave Terry pieces of his own brain.

  33. Dave Terry

    CC@44; “The government has an interest in incentivizing that the children have a mother and a father preferably living together. That is the foundation of society.”

    You really ARE a control freak, aren’t you?
    Government is NOT “our father which art in heaven.”

  34. Concerned Citizen

    I will not put in a link. It is too many characters. You can easily find what you request by following the simple instructions I provided.

    Homosexual couples and heterosexual couples are NOT similarly situated. There is no historic tradition behind homosexual marriages. It is currently an experiment of some states.

    The proof that families with one mother and one father benefit the child is proven through the practice over millenia. In comparison, the recent invention of Homosexual-based families have not yet proved beneficial. Government has no reason to take a risk on such an arrangement that may be harmful to society.

  35. Concerned Citizen

    #55 I am only giving the government justification behind marriage benefits. Opposing the extension of them is just like opposing the extension of any subsidy.

  36. Sam Kress

    “I will not put in a link. It is too many characters. You can easily find what you request by following the simple instructions I provided. ”

    Either copy and paste the evidence for your claims and a link back to the source or I see no reason to believe you.

    “Homosexual couples and heterosexual couples are NOT similarly situated. There is no historic tradition behind homosexual marriages.”

    Tradition is no excuse for big government to keep transgressing against people, although it does provide evidence for my argument that there was a lot of big government excess in the past.

    Traditional marriages were arranged, polygamous, incestuous, coerced, and often involved people too young to be allowed to marry today, so what’s with the argument from tradition?

    ” It is currently an experiment of some states.”

    So was abolition of slavery once upon a time.

    “opposing the extension of any subsidy.”

    There’s no subsidy.

  37. Concerned Citizen

    If you are too incredibly stupid to follow simple instructions, it follows that you cannot follow logic as well.

    Again you revert to your fallacy of holding the exception as the norm. In our western culture there has been very little of the marriages you describe.

    Your comparison of marriage laws to slavery is sickening. Homosexuality is not criminalized and they aren’t being force to do something against their will. Your comparison denigrates all the people that suffered under slavery. Nobody has suffered because of marriage definitions.

  38. Sam Kress

    “If you are too incredibly stupid to follow simple instructions, it follows that you cannot follow logic as well. ”

    If you are too amazingly moronic to copy and paste, why should anyone believe a single word you say (or type)?

    ” In our western culture there has been very little of the marriages you describe.”

    You were talking about tradition; that is traditional marriage, what we had in the past. As if tradition is any kind of valid reason for anything.

    “Your comparison of marriage laws to slavery is sickening.”

    Speaking of slavery, marriage was quite literally slavery until very recently. In past decades it was routine for judges to order women back into abusive marriages. There are still women living today that this happened to.

    “Homosexuality is not criminalized and they aren’t being force to do something against their will. ”

    Not being forced to do anything against their will? Try leave the country, compelled to testify in court against their spouse, forced to relinquish deathbed decisions and visitation rights to biological family members, forced to give up their children, among many other things.

    “Nobody has suffered because of marriage definitions.”

    Bullshit.

  39. Concerned Citizen

    All of your arguments fail because you highlight a single detail and inflate it as though it is comparable to something that often happens. Your argument style can be used to argue against homosexual adoption because of molestation that has occurred in the past.

    What you cite are mild inconveniences compared to slavery. It’s laughable that you stand by that comparison. It reflects as well as your vulgarity that you are arguing based on misplaced emotion rather than logic.

    If you are logically consistent, you should also argue for marriage benefits for polygamists and for incestuous unions.

  40. Deran

    (whoever – you can delte the comment waiting to be moderated, I was trying to create one of those nifty black rectangles)

    Alabama finally has something cultural to be proud of. I’m now opposed to the South seceding, unless Alabama Shakes wants to move north.

    http://youtu.be/HKBVBn-Qzq0

  41. Deran

    Socialist Alternative got another city council candidate on the ballot. This time in Boston. Seamus Whelan.

    They got 1500 valid signatures. Socialist Alternative now has three city council candaites on the ballot (that I know of) in Seattle, Minneapolis and Boston.

    http://www.votewhelan.org/

  42. Deran

    Today is the 23 anniversary of the last popular attempt to reform/democratizethe “old socialist” societies. The massacre of the protestors in Tianamen Square.

    “…young people were singing The Internationale to a background of gunfire …”

    http://youtu.be/XJBnHMpHGRY

    And these same tyrants are in no small part responsible for the current civil war in Syria. If the Butchers of Tianamen, and Putin the Butcher of Grozny, had not tried to prop up Assad two years ago when the masses of Syrians were out in mass noviolent protests demanding democracy and liberty, the current civil war would not be happening. Assad has learned from Beijing.

  43. paulie

    you highlight a single detail and inflate it as though it is comparable to something that often happens

    Many examples were cited that often happen, in fact have happened to millions of people. And the beginning of the tangent was the statement that these were just a couple of examples. Since your original point was getting back to the foundation of the country, not just 15 years ago, a lot of other examples could be cited…including, yes, slavery, but also many others.

    What you cite are mild inconveniences compared to slavery

    It would help if you quoted exactly what you are replying to.

    If you are logically consistent, you should also argue for marriage benefits for polygamists and for incestuous unions.

    Of course we should. Has anyone disputed that? Has anyone argued that we have justice in all aspects already?

  44. Concerned Citizen

    Copy/Pasting is not the easiest when using a mobile device.

    I do not believe in the welfare state. Government should not subsidize activity just because it can. If at all it should only subsidize beneficial activities.

  45. Mark Jones

    We don’t believe in the welfare state either. Who is it that you are arguing against?

  46. Concerned Citizen

    I like Paulie, but he should play fair. He really had me going with the Sam Kress character, but then, once I saw how similarly he and Kress interacted with Dave Terry, I compared views and writing style and concluded that Kress is Paulie. To me, he confirmed it on this page.

  47. paulie

    @78 No, but you can think whatever you want. Lots of people don’t care for Terry and my views are hardly unique here.

  48. paulie

    @77 Yeah, he apparently thinks (or thought) that I’m the nazi troll and that Gingrich and Robertson are libertarian, so (shrug).

  49. Steven Wilson

    Results from Mo 8th Congressional Race

    Jason Smith(R)-42,145, 67.3%
    Steve Hodges(D)-17, 203, 27.5%
    Doug Enyart(C)-2,265, 3.6%
    Bill Slantz(L)-968, 1.5%

    Thanks to Doug and Bill for giving voters a choice.

  50. Sam Kress

    Concerned Citizen,

    I don’t particularly care who else you think I am or how many people you believe you are talking to. Let’s go with your assumption it is only one, since I don’t feel like arguing about it. The arguments stand or fall on their own merits regardless of who makes them. Answer the arguments or let them stand; I have no interest in ad hominem, one way or the other.

  51. Sam Kress

    As for Mr. Terry, after reading a certain amount of his output, whether one engages him personally or just reads, a person draws their own conclusions. I have drawn mine; you are free to form your own, but it’s not something that I’ll argue over.

  52. Dave Terry

    Same Crass @ #83-84;”I have no interest in ad hominem, one way or the other.

    LOL, Your (sic) arguments are 100%,Pure ad hominem

    >”it’s not something that I’ll argue over.

    Of course, not! You can ONLY use character assassination and disinformation. Otherwise, you
    will be judged on what you say.

    Paulie, aren’t your fingers getting tire with all this
    string pulling?

  53. Concerned Citizen

    The Functional Fillmore Frugal Movement (FFFM) is prepared to release Part I of its four part treatise. Part I is entitled “Functional”

    What email should I send it to?

  54. paulie

    Myself included. If you send me anything pertaining to IPR subject matter I routinely forward it to IPR email lists. As for Chris, I’ll let him decide whether to give you his email.

  55. Deran

    The nonaligned socialist blog and network, The North Star, will be holding three panels at the largest annual leftist gathering in the US, the Left Forum. The North Star panel most pertinent to IPR is the North Star panel; Left Third-Party Organizing: Challenges and Opportunities. There will be someone from the Green Party, Socialist Alternative, Philly Socialists and Committees of Correspondence.

    http://www.thenorthstar.info/?p=8854

  56. Deran

    The Left Forum is this weekend in NYC. I won’t be there, but I am hoping that this panel will be streamed. If it is, I will post the link to this Open thread.

  57. paulie

    GP

    They record all calls, regardless of your carrier and search conversations for keywords. Prominent involvement in alt parties and other dissident groups also puts you on a listen list.

  58. Independent Unity Coalition

    I’m working with several independent presidential candidates (POTUS) and we’re trying to hold a our first debate soon. If there are any other candidates interested, please post your contact info. so we can contact you.

    Thanks!

    N.C.

  59. Sam Kress

    @97 If you want to end up on the US Parliament spam list, that is. Notice @97 asks for contact information but does not provide any himself.

  60. NewFederalist

    Serious question: is there any activity to report about the Prohibition Party? It is by far the oldest “third” party in the US and I know they have had their disputes between the “Dodge faction” and everyone else but there is no news about them that I can find anywhere. They were reasonably important once in US history and they still exist so I am asking if any IPR writer has any contacts within the party to give an update. Thanks!

  61. paulie

    I heard from them during the presidential election. They contacted me very late and inquired about prices for a couple of easy states near here. Didn’t make the deal. Haven’t heard since.

  62. Jill Pyeatt

    jr @ 106: We do get lots of spam, but sometimes the spam filter grabs legitimate comments. If a writer finds it, we approve them. It was probably nothing pesrsonal. Posts with a lot of links tend to get put in spam, so we have to be careful and check spam before we delete the folder.

  63. Deran

    I know this will cause much sorrow here at IPR, but the North Star panel at the Left Forum today will not be streamed. It will be taped and when those videos are up I will share them.

  64. paulie

    Are comments here being censored now via prior restraint?

    Lame

    Automated spam filter. It makes mistakes from time to time. Dunno why. We fix it when we catch it.

  65. June Liberty for America

    George Phillies writes:

    The June issue of Liberty For America is out at
    http://libertyforamerica.com/201306.pdf

    Articles include

    Editorial —
    LPPA State Convention
    Alabama State Convention
    Liberty for America Donations
    LNC Votes Ballot Access Funds
    Wes Benedict Has Lawn Signs
    LP Kentucky Lib Registration Up 40%
    Florida
    Where Your Money Went
    LNC, LNCC, Johnson 2012
    Howell Contract Expiring
    LSLA Wants Treasurer
    LNC In Action
    Debate on LNCC Activities
    LNC Employment Policy and Compensation Committee

    and, last, sadly:
    Hardy Macia, RIP

  66. paulie

    In practice lately that has been mostly me, with you and Jill contributing the most articles. As far as having a title I don’t care either way. Trent has not been participating very much as far as I have seen. He does comment sometimes, but that’s about it. Ask Warren.

  67. Deran

    There is no reason to let CC’s blog be linked on the side. It’s not like it is a source of news and no one reads it.

    Isn’t it enough that this anonymous poster got their own thread with their wacky manifesto? Was this done to placate this nutter?

    Does IPR link to blogs set up by anonymous posters? Do we know this is not James Ogle, my bet it is. I could swear somewhere on IPR in a comment Ogle talked abt this Functional Filmore Frugal nutter thing. It could be Milnes, but CC is too socially reactionary to be Milnes.

    I think that because CC will not address questions as to who they are indicates they are hiding something, and especially since they never respond to my suggestions that they are James Ogle.

  68. Concerned Citizen

    @114 Why MySpace?

    When everyone moves out that’s the best time to move in. MySpace was once great and it could be again.

    @117 I already said I rejected the parliamentary system. Let it be clear: I am not Ogle. If I told my name you would not recognize it.

  69. Jill Pyeatt

    Deran, I posted the article because Concerned Citizen is a regular commenter here and, although I don’t agree with a lot of what he says, is polite and consistent. It’s also obvious that he put a lot of thought into it. I did have problems posting something written by an anonymous person, but no one has objected yet. Do others have a problem with the article? I ask because there are apparently 3 more parts.

  70. paulie

    I don’t have an issue with the articles, but i think a link would be a bit much. Not a big deal either way though.

  71. NewFederalist

    “If I told my name you would not recognize it.”

    I can relate to that. It is the same with me which is why I see no reason to abandon my pseudonym. I do not have a blog, however, and I am not looking to gain any sort of recognition for my views. If I were I might be less inclined to conceal my true identity.

  72. paulie

    Yeah, no link. But I think Jill was talking about posting the next parts of his series in the future. Which I’m cool with.

    My position exactly.

  73. Andy

    Edward Snowden donated to Ron Paul for President in 2012. It looks as though Ron Paul was an inspiration for Eric Snowden’s heroic act of releasing those documents to let “We the People” know the extent of our government spying on us.

    http://libertycrier.com/politics/nsa-whistelblower-edward-snowden-was-a-ron-paul-supporter/?utm_source=The+Liberty+Crier&utm_campaign=fbf4906a3d-The_Liberty_Crier_Daily_News_6_10_2013&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_600843dec4-fbf4906a3d-284774857

  74. Andy

    “Sam Kress // Jun 10, 2013 at 11:02 pm

    Key quote from the NSA whistleblower: “A lot of people in 2008 voted for Obama. I did not vote for him. I voted for a third party.”

    I wonder which one he voted for.

  75. Andy

    Somehow, I missed this film. Here’s a preview.

    How Weed Won the West (features Alex Jones, among others):

  76. NewFederalist

    Concerned Citizen @127… thank you for your kind invitation. I never register with social media. I also do not agree with most of the people you seem to consider libertarian. But best of luck to you. I can sure agree with the frugal part!

  77. Oranje Mike

    Does anyone have stickers of the LP porcupine? I’d let to get a hold on some.

  78. NewFederalist

    I know the LP has looked at the porcupine as a party symbol in the past but unlike the eBay listing I don’t believe it was ever adopted. There was a push for “LP the Liberty Penguin” as well but I don’t recall that going anywhere, either. I still see the Statue of Liberty as the generally accepted symbol of the party. Perhaps a thread on this might prove interesting and enlightening.

  79. Steven Berson

    BREAKING NEWS!
    2nd New York City Libertarian Party Convention this evening, Tuesday June 11 nominates new candidates for Mayor and Comptroller.

    After having determined that the results held at the previous nominating Convention on April 9, 2013 were not valid due to credentials of the voters not having been properly validated a new Convention had been called for this evening at and begun at 7:30pm at the Ukranian East Village Restaurant, 140 Second Ave. in Manhattan.

    Attendance was approximately 25 with 19 credentialed attendees voting.

    At the previous Convention current Republican Party candidate Joe Lhota gained the nomination for Mayor – but he declined this nomination. In the authors opinion this decline made sense as Lhota espouses views on a number of issues that are far from libertarian.

    Nominated at tonight’s Convention were Michael Sanchez (current Political Action Coordinator for the Brooklyn Librertarian Party) and Sam Sloan (as well as the option to vote for N.O.T.A.).
    By well over 2/3rd’s majority Michael Sanchez was nominated.

    Following nominations for Comptroller were heard. Kristin Davis was not in attendance but was nominated by Manhattan LP Chair Janet Hopf. Also nominated was Hesham El-Meligy of Staten Island. A round of questioning found that Mr. El-meligy strongly supported the Libertarian Party’s platform, and had an accounting background necessary to be qualified for the Comptroller position.
    Hesham El-Meligy was nominated by over 2/3rd’s of the majority.

    For the position of Public Advocate a person not in attendance whose name I missed was nominated – but lost out to N.O.T.A.

  80. Steven Berson

    You should probably edit my final sentence – and also clarify that Kristin received the nomination for Comptroller at the previous Convention.

  81. paulie

    Looks like Chris was writing it up at the same time as me, but mine was published first so that’s the one I’m leaving up. Hope that’s OK.

  82. paulie

    Your had tags (which I borrowed) and mine had some slight edits. Otherwise yes, they were the same, since we haven’t had another source on this yet.

  83. Catholic Trotskyist

    Agree with about 90% of the video at 159. Makes the case for statism beautifully.

  84. Wes Wagner

    SK @170

    Is “bluffing” newspeak for “lying sack of shit” ? …. I did not get my 11th edition of the newspeak dictionary yet.

  85. Sam Kress

    Hey, have you heard the feds are stockpiling all the tinfoil? Next they are going to make it illegal, right? So what’s up with that?!

  86. Dave Terry

    SK @ 176:
    You probably mean “aluminum foil”. They haven’t made foil out of tin since the early 50’s

  87. Dave Terry

    Paulie @168

    Cool Flag, but what does the ‘logo’ in the blue canton represent?

  88. Andy

    The Dave Champion video I posted above makes a lot of good points, but in his examples, he did not state the percent that the Fair Tax supporters have been, which is that it is a 30% tax, although the Fair Tax supporters disingenuously have pushed it as a 23% tax.

  89. Oranje Mike

    One day, years from now, someone will ask how bad Barack Obama was as president and I will reply:

    Even George W. Bush could not start World War III.

  90. Deran

    What does the mostly blind old socialist do on a Saturday? Errands, go for a walk and feed the crows, and then come home and listen to Richard D. Wolff’s monthly 90 minute talk, Global Capitalism.

    http://youtu.be/49LcN_0d_8Q

    (At 15-20 minutes Wolff does a spectacular job of linking corrupt inefficient gov bureaucrats and the corporate robber barons. As a Marxist, Wolff is very critical of governments that are essentially lackeys of the robber barons.)

    Then I have lunch, get a beer and listen to Richard D. Wolff’s weekly 50 minute radio show/podcast, Economic Update, which I get through iTunes podcast, but you can get the Economic Update here on Mondays.

    http://www.democracyatwork.info/radio/

    And then I listen to a baseball game. So,when I go out in the evening I can throw in comments on baseball (the Mariners suck!) or economics. You can imagine my popularity at parties!

    Good times!

  91. Andy

    Everyone should watch this MUST SEE video:

    The Terrifying Future of the United States

  92. Deran

    This page as a link to listen to audio of a recent Vermont Progressive Party meeting discussing their disappointment with the VT Gov. Shumlin (a Democrat) who the VPP did not run a gubenatorial candidate against him as a show of potential progressivist solidarity. But as often happens, the Democrat turned out to be much less than an ally than thought. And whether the VTPP should run a gubernatorial candidate against Shumlin next year.

    http://digital.vpr.net/post/progressive-party-and-governor#.Ub3subYVkFY

  93. paulie

    I have just been notified that MySpace deleted my blog and everyone else’s as well.

    Tried to warn you about dinsosaurspace, as well as the dinosaur Republican politicians you support (and somehow confuse with libertarians), such as Gingrich.

  94. Deran

    I’d like to point out the one of the central reasons there was no US government/corporate/Illuminati conspiracy behind the Sept 11 2001 attacks on the US. Look at Snowden and Manning; there are more and more people with access to information that when exposed exposes the “conspiracy”. My point being, if there was even a single, even part of a an fact supporting such a vast conspiracy, someone, among the thousands of people that would be needed to be involved in such a massive conspiracy would have exposed this conspiracy. I’m not talking abt nutters like Alex Jones, I mean people who have access to the facts or were on some level involved.

    Nothing is hidden anymore, nothing can be hidden. I might be outraged that the US government is spying on every part of my life, but I am not surprised. And one of the many many people employed in the spying conspiracy spoke out.

    The point being, Snowde and Manning and Wikileaks are facts on the ground, trutherism is hypothesis and nothing more.

    Just wanted to make that point because I still see people post trutherist crap here in IPR.

    Think abt it.

  95. Andy

    “Look at Snowden and Manning; there are more and more people with access to information that when exposed exposes the ‘conspiracy’. My point being, if there was even a single, even part of a an fact supporting such a vast conspiracy, someone, among the thousands of people that would be needed to be involved in such a massive conspiracy would have exposed this conspiracy.”

    Your reasoning is severely flawed. For every one Snowden or Manning, there are many, many other people in government who just keep their mouths shut and do what they are told. Heroes like Snowden and Manning are an extreme rarity.

    It would not have taken that many people to stage the 9/11 attack. Just a few key people in a few key places. Some of them were likely compartmentalized, as in they did not even know the entire plan or what was really happening.

    Where are the real culprits behind 9/11 now? Some of them could be dead. Some of them could have been whisked out of the country. Some of them could be public figures who are laughing about it behind the scenes.

  96. Andy

    Also, who can forget Norman Mineta’s testimony about Dick Cheney’s odd behavior on 9/11:

  97. paulie

    Deran, some people have in fact come forward with what they say is inside knowledge of 9/11 conspiracy – whether you believe them or not is another matter.

  98. paulie

    This page as a link to listen to audio of a recent Vermont Progressive Party meeting discussing their disappointment with the VT Gov. Shumlin (a Democrat) who the VPP did not run a gubenatorial candidate against him as a show of potential progressivist solidarity. But as often happens, the Democrat turned out to be much less than an ally than thought. And whether the VTPP should run a gubernatorial candidate against Shumlin next year.

    http://digital.vpr.net/post/progressive-party-and-governor#.Ub3subYVkFY

    Thanks. We really need a news tips email address again. Wish I knew how to set it up.

  99. Dave Terry

    Iranian Moderate Rowhani Wins Presidential Election
    by Richard Silverstein on June 15, 2013 ·

    Today’s surprising news that a relatively moderate cleric, Hassan Rowhani has won the Iranian presidential election carries a few important meanings and raises several pitfalls we should avoid. First, it means that Ayatollah Khamenei determined he didn’t want a repeat of the 2009 election and decided not to prevent the real winner from assuming the presidency as may or may not have happened in 2009. Second, it means that Khamenei likely determined that Rowhani will not present a serious threat to clerical power or his regime. That in turn means that Rowhani is not likely to rock the boat in a serious way. He will be someone with whom the Supreme Leader, as Margaret Thatcher said of Gorbachev, “can do business.”

    This, in turn, means many of us outside Iran, and perhaps many millions of his voters inside the country may be disappointed if they expected serious or radical change as a result of this election (sounds reminiscent of a recent U.S. presidential election!). The best we can hope is that Rowhani will keep the seat warm and when Khamenei dies that it will allow a true reformer to compete and possibly win the most powerful job.

    Since Rowhani served as Mohammed Khatami’s nuclear negotiator, and presided over the only true suspension of the program Iran ever agreed to, we can presume there will be more flexibility in the country’s posture towards the west. Though, we also should keep in mind that Khamenei keeps the nuclear portfolio solidly locked up for himself. If Rowhani has any influence it will be by dint of personality or persuasion, rather than direct order.

    The most important question now is how the west will react to this opportunity. It offers the U.S. and its allies a new, unexpected and golden opportunity to pull a rabbit out of a hat. They all expected the hard-line to continue with this election. But those expectations have been upended. Will the west rise to the occasion and put forward serious initiatives that may break the logjam? Or will it continue with the same nondescript proposals that got them nowhere.

    There is a chance, possibly a very slim one, for a comprehensive, far-reaching agreement if the west is willing to end sanctions, recognize Iran, and accept some level of Iranian uranium enrichment that is constrained below weapons-grade.

    There is a portion of the Iran-related punditocracy that has really been thrown for a loop. All the anti-regime analysts like Meir Javedanfar and others in the neocon think-tank community expected Iran to put its worst foot forward by electing a hardliner. When it didn’t happen it must’ve broken their hearts.

    Javedanfar offered up his pre-election thoughts for Al-Monitor which focused on the presidential candidacy of Tehran’s mayor, Ghalibaf. He didn’t mention Rowhani’s name once in the entire article. Writing in his blog, Javedanfar offered Rowhani a 10% chance of becoming president. The “analyst” did concede the candidate might get the most votes. But he was certain the fix would be in and Khamenei would not let Rowhani win. In fact, Javedanfar said explicitly he would not vote given the chance because the election was rigged.

    At the UK’s arch pro-Israel Jewish Chronicle he went even farther:

    “…It is safe to say that moderate candidate Hassan Rowhani has no chance of success. There is little doubt that Mr Rowhani and the Stanford educated reformist Mohammad Reza Aref are far more popular than the conservative candidates. However, the supreme leader would not allow votes in their favour to be counted.”

    Other Iranian analysts did better than Javedanfar in predicting a Rowhani victory. So the Israeli-Iranian can’t fall back on the excuse that he had it wrong just like everyone else.

    As a Twitter follower wrote to me, Aren’t we lucky that 20-million Iranians didn’t fall for the same sort of cynicism that Javedanfar did and that they offered their BEST hope for change by voting for the winner.

    All of this goes to prove what a fool’s errand it is to try to predict a presidential election in a place as volatile as Iran. Javedanfar would’ve been better served had he merely offered thoughts instead of predictions. But fool’s do rush in where angels fear to tread.

    Add to this, Javedanfar’s equally false notion that Iran will be felled by the west’s sanctions regime as long as we keep them in place long enough. And that sanctions will bring the regime to its knees and bring the long-sought agreement the west has been after (ending the nuclear program)–and on the west’s terms. Like a clock, he may be right twice a day. But even that level of accuracy is pushing it as far as his record is concerned.

    All of this goes to prove what a fool’s errand it is to try to predict a presidential election in a place as volatile as Iran. Javedanfar would’ve been better served had he merely offered thoughts instead of predictions. But fool’s do run in where angels fear to tread.

    Add to this, Javedanfar’s equally false notion that Iran will be felled by the west’s sanctions regime as long as we keep them in place long enough. And that sanctions will bring the regime to its knees and bring the long-sought agreement the west has been after (ending the nuclear program)–and on the west’s terms. Like a clock, he may be right twice a day. But even that level of accuracy is pushing it as far as his record is concerned.

  100. Deran

    @paulie. I’m never sure if I should post these sorts of things in the Open Thread or send them to one of you IPR “editorial” volunteers.

  101. Deran

    Yes, but unless the sept 11 attacks were actually carried out by the Illuminati, then if people with actual evidence came forward there would be any number of news outlets, the Guardian for instance, that would jump at it. It just doesn’t make any sense any other way I look at it.

  102. Andy

    “Deran // Jun 16, 2013 at 10:51 pm

    Yes, but unless the sept 11 attacks were actually carried out by the Illuminati, then if people with actual evidence came forward there would be any number of news outlets, the Guardian for instance, that would jump at it. It just doesn’t make any sense any other way I look at it.”

    Check out the links I posted above about this.

  103. Deran

    I have. I have friends who are dedicated truthers. But, if this were a conspiracy it would be revealed and picked up by the mainstream media, otherwise, if this was carried out by an all seeing conspiracy, why even think abt politics? if the “Illuminati” run things, there is no point to giving a crap abt how the world works.

    Conspiracies do exist, and they get exposed. There are competing elites and corporate powers, one of them would be glad to show that another group has tried to seize sole power. That’s how history works.

  104. Andy

    “Deran // Jun 16, 2013 at 11:44 pm

    I have. I have friends who are dedicated truthers. But, if this were a conspiracy it would be revealed and picked up by the mainstream media,”

    These stories actually have received some mainstream media coverage. One example is that Jesse Ventura appeared on several mainstream news shows and talked about 9/11 being an inside job.

    Why has it not received more mainstream media coverage? The same reason that minor party and independent candidates don’t receive much mainstream media coverage, and that is because the mainstream media is controlled. They can’t necessarily control what every reporter does, but they can control the distribution of the stories. The mainstream media has been in bed with big government in this country for a long time. Do a search for CIA Operation Mockingbird.

    “otherwise, if this was carried out by an all seeing conspiracy, why even think abt politics?”

    Politics is a means to get a message out, and to hopefully enact change, even if that change does not end up happening through electoral politics, it can lead to change happening in other ways.

    “if the ‘Illuminati’ run things, there is no point to giving a crap abt how the world works.”

    Yeah there is. The “powers that be” could easily be overthrown, or ignored into being irrelevant. It is just a matter of a critical mass of people deciding to resist them.

  105. Andy

    “Conspiracies do exist, and they get exposed.”

    Not always. Government probably engages in thousands of conspiracies per year (some big, some small). The general public never hears about most of them.

  106. paulie

    . I’m never sure if I should post these sorts of things in the Open Thread or send them to one of you IPR “editorial” volunteers.

    For best results do both.

  107. William Saturn

    Since the frequency of article posting has increased, can the RECENT ENTRIES column be expanded?

  108. Andy

    I just stumbled upon a video on YouTube from somebody who a lot of us in the LP have not seen or heard from in a few years who used to be really active in party in southern California.

    Mark Selzer: OBAMA PESO BLUES

  109. paulie

    Since the frequency of article posting has increased, can the RECENT ENTRIES column be expanded?

    Tried to do that, and for some reason it popped up as a separate item in the left column, this one with 20 items instead of 10. If the Redlich brothers allow it to stay that way that’s the best I can figure out how to do.

  110. paulie

    I just stumbled upon a video on YouTube from somebody who a lot of us in the LP have not seen or heard from in a few years who used to be really active in party in southern California.

    Mark Selzer

    Good to see Selzer is still around. Haven’t heard from him in a while. I think he may have given up on the LP.

  111. Jill Pyeatt

    I found this interesting story in Thoughts On Liberty, a site I’ve recently discovered written by libertarian women.

    That Time I Met Some Real Life Anarchists

    by Elizabeth Robinson BeShears

    Have you ever been somewhere, minding your own business, when your world gets rocked by a couple of complete strangers?

    Two Tuesdays ago I had just completed a lunch meeting for my job in downtown Birmingham, AL, I was excited to get home and decompress, take notes from my meeting, and get some more work done before I had to head out of town for several days early the next morning.

    But sometimes plans change.

    During my lunch meeting, a young man and woman bearing guitars, large packs, and a well-behaved small dog sat down close to my table outside. Though they were clearly transient, they looked far too well-fed and sober to be one of the homeless that inhabit the streets in numbers that are startlingly high for a city this size.

    I wanted desperately to just go home and change out of my work clothes. To sit at my desk in the air conditioning. To live in my bubble that day, like I normally do.

    But I couldn’t.

    I went inside to top off my Diet Coke, then walked back outside, determined to walk back to my car and drive home.

    But I didn’t

    Something drew me to the young couple enjoying their lunch in the early June sunshine. After asking if I could join them, I sat down to listen to their story.

    The people I met that day, Abigail and Eric, are profoundly dangerous. Abigail and Eric are different from the majority of Americans. Abigail and Eric gave up nearly all of their possessions to backpack across the country helping people.

    We chatted for a few minutes, talked about hometowns—theirs in California, and mine in Alabama, and their dog, Jackson. You know, the type of things strangers talk about. Then, I don’t remember how, but things got political. I mentioned that I am a libertarian.

    To my surprise Eric answered with, “To people not familiar with alternate political parties I call myself a libertarian, but really I’m an anarchist.”

    My jaw dropped. Literally.

    Turns out, Abigail and Eric have set out to give credence to their belief that people are good and generous. That love is all you need. That mutual respect and natural rights can replace government.

    We sat there talking religion, politics, anarchism, and books for an hour and a half, before I invited them to have dinner with my husband and me that evening.

    While we treated them to some Alabama BBQ at a local joint, my husband and I sat there in love with these people. Abigail exhibits this grace that can only be described as divine. She is warm and inviting, enthusiastic and loving, a follower of The Way, and Eric is incredibly smart and well read. He talks philosophy in a way even I can understand.

    My husband and I walked away from dinner that night with a renewed hope in libertarianism and in people in general. Because besides the awesome books they recommended, they left us with an important reminder:

    There is a lot of hope for the libertarian movement because people like Abigail and Eric exist. People who see that there is a higher goal to freedom than simply attaining all the material wealth we can, that even with the freest markets and smallest governments there will always be those who live in relative poverty among us, and that those people are best served not by a faceless, soulless government, but with love and respect from those who have more to give. We are made for community, and we are equipped to love. There is a happy medium between Marxism and Ayn Rand’s complete disregard for the poor, and it is easily found when we take the time to love one another, if for no other reason than because we are all human.

    These companions are dangerous because they are proving all of them, Ayn Rand, Karl Marx, and John McCain, wrong by living out the world they wish to attain.

    They are some of the most badass people I’ve ever met.

    You can read the original article here: http://thoughtsonliberty.com/author/elizabeth

    I’m becoming increasingly interested in anarchism, and I will try posting some articles here in the Open Thread because I suspect other readers would find them interesting.

  112. paulie

    BTW Elizabeth BeShears is right on the money there. Unfortunately not enough people have heard that kind of take on libertarianism. More people need to hear it.

    Can’t remember whether I met her. I think I did meet Abigail, Eric and Jackson in Birmingham also, but I don’t think we spoke much. I have met others like them more than a few times. There are whole worlds of people that organized libertarianism’s endless fascination with kowtowing to the right just ignores.

  113. Dave Terry

    Jill @ 221;
    “They are some of the most badass people I’ve ever met.”

    A beautiful fantasy, until they either wake up DEAD from an overdose OR ‘nailed to a cross’, in an alley, at the hands of some of those ‘nonexistent’ non-good or non-generous people.

    Pollyanna has eternal life!

  114. Jill Pyeatt

    DT @ 225: Wow, Dave, that’s an awfully quick write-off for this lifestyle. Do you have evidence that it won’t work for them?

    I didn’t read anything in the article that drugs were a factor in their life, for example. And as far being ‘nailed to a cross’– that comment makes no sense to me at all.

  115. Andy

    “paulie // Jun 18, 2013 at 6:21 am

    I’m glad there are people like Elizabeth BeShears in Alabama too, not just people like Miss Alabama.”

    Who is Elizabeth BeShears?

  116. Deran

    I have to agree with Jill; there was no mention of drugs (they appeared well fed and, from the description of the hours of conversation they sounded sober and intellectual) they did not sound like innocents likely to be killed by people taking advantage of their goodness. The gal being a follower of The Way made me a bit unease, but there ws no apparent attempt to recruit the Alabamans in to that cult.

    I know young people who are doing a similar thing, taking it on the road, and not as pseudo-hobo “oogles”. I think a lot of young people are very alienated from the world around them and are trying to do good and explore what is out there. I’m not a libertarian capitalist, but their mutualism and good works appeal even eo me.

    I think mutualism is a point where libertarian socialists and libertarian capitalists can actually find common ground.

  117. Deran

    Maye I am misinterpreting the reference to “The Way”. Perhaps this is not the Christian group, perhaps she was referring to Taoism, which can also be referred to as The Way? Which would sort of make more sense than The Way cult.

  118. Dave Terry

    Jill @ 226; “that’s an awfully quick write-off for this lifestyle.”

    You seem to forget that I’ve been considering this question for most of my 70+ years.

    I was already out of the army and going to college when the L.A. Free Press began, when it became popular to burn draft cards, Haight-
    Ashbury replaced Hollywood and Vine as the most famous intersection in America and tie-dye T shirts were popular.

    Hippies then, hippies now. No difference!

    “I didn’t read anything in the article that drugs were a factor in their life”

    I’d think it goes without saying that SOME kind of ‘feel good’ elixer is present in this mind-state.

    “And as far being ‘nailed to a cross’– that comment makes no sense to me at all.”

    Obviously the best known proponent of this universal brotherhood syndrome, a young Jewish fellow almost exactly 2000 years ago, paid the maximum penalty for embarrassing his family and friends was crucified at Golgotha.

  119. Andy

    WWE Wrestler, Glenn Jacobs (aka-Kane) Discusses Austrian Economics, Internet Sales Tax & the Federal Reserve

  120. paulie

    Who is Elizabeth BeShears?

    See Jill’s comment immediately before yours and mine. I was responding to the two comments at the same time.

  121. Jill Pyeatt

    If you haven’t seen the above video with Russell Brand, I think it’s well worth the 8 1/2 minutes it takes to watch it.

  122. Oranje Mike

    The next time somebody tries to tell you that Libertarians do not matter, refer them to Arizona. The GOP has just forced a bill and just signed by Brewer that makes running for office easier for Republicans (and Democrats) while making it drastically more difficult for Libertarians (and all other smaller parties).

    The old farts in the GOP out here are convinced we are at fault for a commie dyke getting sent to the House. We’re “spoilers” they cry and assume we would vote for them if a candidate advocating liberty was not allowed on the ballot.

    http://www.azcentral.com/news/politics/articles/20130619brewer-signs-controversial-election-bill-into-law.html?nclick_check=1

  123. DaveTerry

    Pinck Mike @ 239;

    If the terms commie dyke were quotes, please have the diligence to use “quote marks”. If NOT, please either refrain from using those terms or stop referring to yourself as a libertarian.

  124. Andy

    “Oranje Mike // Jun 19, 2013 at 10:12 pm

    The next time somebody tries to tell you that Libertarians do not matter, refer them to Arizona. The GOP has just forced a bill and just signed by Brewer that makes running for office easier for Republicans (and Democrats) while making it drastically more difficult for Libertarians (and all other smaller parties).

    The old farts in the GOP out here are convinced we are at fault for a commie dyke getting sent to the House. We’re ‘spoilers’ they cry and assume we would vote for them if a candidate advocating liberty was not allowed on the ballot.”

    The establishment tried to get Top Two Primary passed in Arizona last year which would have killed minor party and independent candidates in that state. Fortunately, Top Two Primary did not pass, but unfortunately, they are back with this.

  125. Deran

    Lighten up? So, comrade Saturn, your version of libertarian capitalism includes the liberty to purposefully use terms that are meant to be degrading and derogatory? And people wonder why the LP is mostly a white guy thing.

  126. DaveTerry

    The orb with rings around it writes: “Are you the thought police? Lighten up.

    I don’t NEED to “lighten up”. You on the other hand wouldn’t be such a lightweight if you’d let some of the air out of your head. Comprende?

  127. Deran

    Context? If you’d used a word like “kike” or “nigger” would those have been excusable based on context? “Commie” doesn’t bother me as much (though red-baiting has led to many people suffering). But “dyke” used as a slur is lame and reactionary.

  128. DaveTerry

    #244 “There’s a degree of context that is lost upon you both.

    If you aren’t talking about flood control, there is NO context that justifies such a term.

  129. Oranje Mike

    Yes. Context.

    The AZLP has been under attack by the GOP for “spoiling” 2 or 3 races on election night. The biggest of which was the AZ9 seat won by Kirsten Sinema. Our LP candidate received more than the difference between Sinema and her Republican opponent Vernon Parker. The outrage was immediate. Many comments left on many articles and stories and none of these comments seemed to upset about Sinema being a Democrat.

    Put it all together.

    We’re all big kids with brains (I hope). The context and intent of my words were quite obvious. At least they should have been to anyone without such a bias against the LP (as you obviously do based on 243).

  130. DaveTerry

    Citrus Fruit with pulp inside writes: “Many comments left on many articles and stories and none of these comments seemed to upset about Sinema being a Democrat.”

    Easily explained by the fact the MOST Republicans are knee-jerk imbeciles. So what’s YOUR excuse? Oh yeah, the pulp inside.

  131. William Saturn

    Thankfully Deran is proficient in newspeak @246. Otherwise, DaveTerry’s mind might have exploded.

  132. Oranje Mike

    The reference used to describe the mindset of the “old farts in the GOP”. This mindset is why they are attacking the LP in AZ right now.

    You’re either daft or one of those types that was in a huff over Django Unchained because you place a premium on words whereas the more rational minded place a premium on context and intent.

  133. DaveTerry

    @252; “whereas the more rational minded place a premium on context and intent.”

    This is absolutely correct! Unfortunately, you don’t seem to be aware that “context and intent” are LESS clear in the written word, as opposed to
    the spoken word.

    Whereas I could not see your facial expression, body language or voice inflection, it was VERY unclear exactly WHAT your “INTENT” was.

    That is ALL that I intended when I wrote my original comment. “QUOTES” are another way of indicating what the context or inference is!
    (particularly when using the kind of words you were using in your post)

    This would prevent recurrences of the exchange we just had.

    cordially, Dave Terry

  134. Jill Pyeatt

    I found this on Facebook. What’ s going on in the Florida LP? Isn’t John Wayne Smith wanting to be the governor candidate, and he’s running against Adrian Wyllie?

    John Wayne Smith wrote:

    “I just woke up (I slept for 14 hours) from a nightmare. I have been having anxiety attacks ever since the Libertarian Party of Florida’s state convention last month. They have been getting worse each day from the results what transpired in Naples. I have seen the face of pure evil. It is called the Libertarian Party of Florida. An institution I organized in 1986.

    I have tested my resolve two days in a row. I went to two county LP meetings. At the Polk meeting I had to look at Lynn House and Scott Allen for 2 hours. I was weak when I got home and had a hard time sleeping. Last night I went to the Orange county meeting. Only 6 of the people there were Libertarian. The rest were Republican or so called Liberty People.
    The bad part was that I again had to look at pure evil. Adrian Wyllie, who I was supposed to debate, and Danielle Alexandre. Being in a room with the two of them made my skin crawl. It did not help that the majority of the room was people who wanted to restrict my rights and life.
    On top of that I have to understand that they are the representatives of the Libertarian Party of Florida Executive Committee. A very evil organization.

    The next 2 years is going to be rough but I will make it through it. I do not use drugs or alcohol so will have to rely on my strength of convection that not all people are evil.
    I will continue to fight the fight for responsibility and real freedom though out numbered. I will not abandon the precepts I have lived with all my life.”

  135. Ad Hoc

    Tom McClintock had this to say at https://www.facebook.com/jointom/posts/10151430191906861

    Tom McClintock
    It is utterly ridiculous that so many are calling Edward Snowden a traitor. A traitor is one who takes up with a nation’s enemies; Snowden is standing up for the constitutional rights of every American. If Snowden is a traitor, then the government is defining the American people as the enemy and that, perhaps, offers a disturbing insight into the minds of the politicians who are causally throwing around that term.

  136. Andy

    “Ad Hoc // Jun 20, 2013 at 4:35 pm

    Tom McClintock had this to say at ”

    I used to like Tom McClintock, but I lost a lot of respect for him when he did not endorse Ron Paul (or Gary Johnson for that matter) and endorsed John McCain in 2008 and Mitt Romney in 2012.

  137. DaveTerry

    I find it difficult to reconcile the “words” that Ad Hoc attributes to Tom McClintock and the actions that Andy attributes to him.

    Talk about a logical disconnect?

  138. Jill Pyeatt

    As I said on Facebook, sometimes Tom McClintock gets things right. This statement was one of those times.

    Other times, he is very wrong.

  139. George Phillies

    And back at the LNC, I have had forwarded to me what is asserted to be a message from the National Chair, advising the LNC that he will not be re-appointed Carla Howell as Executive Director, when her contract expires at the end of the month.

    Perhaps this time the LNC will have a legitimate search for the post. I suspect that David Blau does know how to do this.

  140. George Phillies

    Messaging for non-Libertarians, from Libertarians:

    Who is the enemy?

    We have bipartisan agreement.

    Vice President Dick Cheney: Snowden is a “traitor”

    Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-Calf.): “I think it’s an act of treason.” …

    Republican Speaker of the House Boehner: Snowden is a “traitor”

    Democratic Senator Bill Nelson on Snowden: an “act of treason.”

    Former U.N. Ambassador John Bolton: “Edward Snowden is a “traitor” who has “committed an act of war against the United States”

    Republican Senator Saxby Chambliss “If he is not a traitor, then he’s pretty darn close to it”.

    But if Snowden’s deed was treason, who was the enemy he helped?

    The people most affected by Snowden’s revelation are not foreign spies. They know that no communication lines are secure.

    The people most affected by Snowden’s revelations are us, the people of America. We’re the ones just now learning that we live in a police state. The NSA records all our telephone calls, all our internet messages, and all our bank and credit card transactions.

    The NSA may search electronically for anything, anywhere. Cheney, Feinstein, Boehner, Bolton, Chambliss, Nelson, and all their friends have revived the Writ of Assistance, the general search warrant of King George III that was a primary cause of the American Revolution.

    We the People are the ones who just now learned that Democratic and Republican politicians, standing together behind Cheney, Feinstein, Boehner, Bolton, Chambliss, Nelson, and all their friends, have shredded our Constitution and Bill of Rights.

    We’re the people who Snowden helped.

    Cheney, Feinstein, Boehner, Nelson, Bolton, Chambliss, and all their establishment friends have made very clear: Americans are the people they do not trust. Americans are the people who must be watched and monitored and spied upon. Americans are the menace. Americans are the enemy.

    Cheney, Feinstein, Boehner, Nelson, Bolton, Chambliss, and all their establishment friends prove by their deeds that we are their enemies. They wage electronic warfare on all of us.

    But that coin has a second side.

    If we are their enemy, it must be the case:

    They are our enemies.

    Cheney, Feinstein, Boehner, Nelson, Bolton, Chambliss and their establishment cronies. They’re the enemies of all Americans.

    We need to correct matters, with the boxes that count: The Soap box. The donation box. The ballot box.

  141. Andy

    “Republican Senator Saxby Chambliss ‘If he is not a traitor, then he’s pretty darn close to it’.”

    I remember that Saxby Chambliss was one of the Republicans which Bob Barr was fund raising for while he was a member of the Libertarian National Committee.

  142. DaveTerry

    AMEN! Mr Phillies!!!!! Bravisimo!!!

    Reprise;

    Where have all the liberals gone,
    long time passing.
    Where have all the liberals gone,
    long time ago.

    Where have all the liberals gone,
    gone to fascists everyone,
    When will we ever learn?
    When will we ever learn?

  143. Waldemar Testarossa Fiumente

    Saxby Chambliss is an oozing hemorrhoid on the anus of the American government, and the less said about Bob Barr the better.

  144. DaveTerry

    Chris; I don’t DO ‘social media’ including face book,
    but I’ll say this. I love it. I’ve been fighting this battle so long and been called an ‘anti-Semite’ so many time by so many people, I could write a a book on the extremes that American Zionists and apologists for Israel have resorted to to smear any one who dares criticize them.

    Maybe that’s why the crude, rude and supercilious comments on IRP run off my back like water.

    Good luck, I hope you find lots of “friends”

  145. Krzysztof Lesiak Post author

    @270 Dave

    Thanks. I hope there are many LP members, including those in county, state and even national leadership positions who share our sentiments.

  146. Deran

    “If the animal is already dead, the victimless crime would become a variant of necromancy”

    Necromancy! Sexual abuse of nonhuman animals isn’t enough, now they are promoting sorcery!

  147. Jill Pyeatt

    I guess I’ve lived a sheltered city-girl life. Most of the stuff in this article was news to me.

  148. DOMA, Prop 8 Down

    In a giant step for Liberty, the Supreme Court struck down Congressman Barr’s DOMA, and ruled the Federal Courts have no jurisdiction to rule on California Proposition 8, which has the net effect of striking Proposition 8.

    DOMA’s destruction was ensured by Speaker Boehner, who ensured that DOMA had a vigorous legal defense after the Executive Branch refused to defend it, thereby allowing the court to state that DOMA had had the vigorous legal defense required before the Supreme Court could strike it.

    Libertarians may be cheered that liberty actually advanced a bit for a change.

  149. DOMA, Prop 8 Down

    @278 It seems to me that we would be better off with the belief that the United States has a Parliament, assuming that we have a limit on the number of restricted threads.

  150. Deran

    The Socialist Alternative org is running candidates for City Council candidates in three cities. They also have a different perspective on SCOTUS overturning key parts of DOMA, and refusing to hear an appeal of CA’s Prop 8. Basically that gay liberation is abt a great deal more than marriage equality. Marriage equality, and social security generally, are very important, SA is holding to gay liberation, as compared to the more assimilationist/petit bourgeois “gay pride”.

    http://socialistalternative.org/news/article18.php?id=2152

  151. Deran

    I’d also like to suggest that the facebook page for SA city council candidate Kshama Sawant is a good source of bews abd views from a Trotskyist org that is not a dinosaur and is active in the real world.

    http//www.facebook.com/VoteSawant

    this FB page is not as active, but still provides some news abt the SA campaign in Boston.

    http://www.facebook.com/votewhelan.org

    The FB page for Ty Moore, the SA candaite in Minneapolis is more active

    http://www.facebook.com/Votetymoore

    But the Sawant page seems to be more of an outlet for local campaign news and bigger statements from Socialist Alternative.

    I recognize that the Stalinist Party for Socialism and Liberation is electorally active, but the Freedom Socialist Party is not very often electorally active.

    Just a suggestion, not a criticism.

    And I am not a member or fellow traveller to any Leninist org, but I have to admit SA is much more active and respected among people I know than any other specific socialist political organization. Much to my chagrin, I admit.

  152. Jill Pyeatt

    BTW, Mr. Stevens sent me a Facebook mesage asking me to post the above article about bestiality here as an article on IPR. I won’t get to it for a few days, so if another writer wants to, fine.

  153. Chuck Moulton

    Gary Johnson just sent an Our America Initiative fundraising letter which said in part:

    P.S. Your contribution today will go directly to support placing Equal Marriage Amendments on the ballots in key states.

    Given what George Phillies has written about Gary Johnson for President campaign spending, I am very skeptical of OAI’s claim. Will there ever be an accounting of Our America Initiative spending?

  154. Guy

    Jill,

    I would skip that if I was you.

    He is mentally unstable. Only a few weeks ago he requested IPR never publish his articles. Now he wants them published at IPR again. You should stick with his prior request and ignore them completely.

    I think Stevens is POed that he was pressured to resign in PA and that the candidate he was backing lost and is now trying t0 hurt the LP as much as he can. At least that is the best explanation I can come up with for this.

    Here’s a sampling of reactions to Tom Stevens email and its bullshit headline (not counting any that may have responded without copying the whole list):

    GIGI BOWMAN:

    Thank you for sharing your mailing list with everyone in the universe while giving libertarians a bad name as usual. Please take me off your mailing list once and for all.

    JIM TOMASIK:

    Same here. Take me off your email list. I don’t need to see this sick crap.

    Never email me ever again.

    Thanks,

    Jim Tomasik
    Chairman, Libertarian Party of Tennessee

    PETE BLOME:

    Please keep me on your email list just so I can monitor the utter bilge you spout in the Libertarian name…

    This is either a pitifully misguided attempt at truth seeking, or a more vile attempt to poison the public mind about what Libertarians stand for in the guise of genuine discourse. I don’t like either one.

    DANIEL WIENER:

    Dr. Stevens,

    I have no interest in spending my time on this topic; I have more important things to do, such as cutting my toenails. Furthermore, I very much object to your blasting out everybody’s email addresses, and thereby potentially associating all those addresses with this topic if it gets propagated on the Internet. If you were really serious about initiating a discussion, you could have simply BCC’d the addresses. Please remove me from your email list. And if I do receive any further emails from you on anything other than strictly Libertarian Party business matters, I will add your address to my spam filter.

    ROBERT JONES:

    I heartily concur with Mr. Wiener.

    We have the NSA spying, we have the IRS playing political games, we have people dying in far-flung corners of the world and a President and former Presidential contender who just can’t wait to get into yet another corner where we have no interest, the War on Drugs continues, the majority of the USSC can’t be bothered to read the Constitution carefully enough to notice that neither Marriage nor Health Care are any of the federal government’s concern, we are having our right to keep and bear arms infringed upon by a government that arms Mexican drug dealers and terrorist rebels…..

    and you want to talk about Bestiality.

    “Doctor” Stevens:

    1. Please take me off your list.

    2. Please go have yourself a hypnosis session and erase any memory you have of me.
    Robert K. Jones, Esq
    900 Boston Post Road 26B
    Old Saybrook, Connecticut 06475

    DONNA GREBAS:

    Please remove me from your email list also. This is not a legitimate topic of discussion for Libertarians or any other group of sane individuals.

    Donna Grebas
    4th CD Chair
    Libertarian Party of Virginia

    REBECCA SINK-BURRIS:

    “Dr.” Stevens,

    I request that you immediately remove me from your email list. Libertarians have been way too tolerant of people such as yourself who defile the party, no wonder people think our views represent license rather than liberty.

    MARAKAY ROGERS:

    Tom,

    I’m not altogether clear on your actual agenda in sending this out or if it ties in at all with LPPA, but unless your objective is to embarrass yourself, it’s backfiring spectacularly. I am not sure of your purpose, only of your result.

    Marakay Rogers

    Sent from my ChaiPhone

    PAUL PASSARELLI:

    Short answer: NO!

    Bromide: I do not need this garbage cluttering up my mailbox.

    Rationale(short): It’s a local health ordinance.

    Complaint: We don’t need topics like this cluttering up the debates. Until and not before, a significant fraction of the people feel the need to discuss this topic and many many others of equal dubiousness, we can take up the discussion; if and only if the more important issues have been resolved.

    Policy: There are 300 million Americans, that means there are 60 billion or more issues that could be considered under the “Libertarian” umbrella. Attempting to cover them all is asinine!

    On behalf of the real-world Libertarians, I’d like to apologize, but that’s all I’m able to do. It is not my intent to restrict speech, only to ask those preparing to speak to test their own internal censor to determine if the topic merits the imposition on other people’s time.

    Let’s focus on what matters.

    EVAN McMAHON:

    Remove my information from any and all lists you have me on. I do not want to receive these repugnant “writings” nor do I want them expressed as Libertarian thought or policy.

    MARK GRANNIS:

    I agree with Paul Passarelli. It’s a free country, and you can e-mail me if you want (though displaying all our e-mail addresses on a list this size is rude at best). But this is a political party, not a debating society, and you’re bringing up a question that virtually no voters are asking, that many find offensive even to think about, and that no sentient person can possibly think it is in the electoral interests of the LP to elevate to prominence. LP candidates often work very hard to be taken seriously on issues like war, civil liberties, the budget, and monetary policy. They deserve better than to be undermined by your decision to blast this message out. Its practical relevance is almost nil, and its potential for offending potential voters is incalculably high. It’s hard for me to imagine any topic on which the LP and its candidates could possibly have lower potential for expanding the consensus in favor of liberty and greater potential for offending ordinary voters and marginalizing LP candidates.

    I suspect there are places on the Internet where people care about the legality or illegality of bestiality, and if you want to enter that debate that’s fine with me, but please leave the LP out of it.

  155. Jill Pyeatt

    Don’t worry, Guy, I have no intention of publishing it. I object to the title as well, and the suggestion that he’s doing this to harm the LP occurred to me, also.

  156. Guy

    I don’t think he wants to help the LP, LOL. I also don’t think that was what you meant to say.

  157. Krzysztof Lesiak Post author

    @289

    I might at least do a brief article about it without republishing all that bullshit he wrote. Or I might just do a commentary on this. This guy is fosho the LP’s very own version of Don Grundmann.

    “Support For The Decriminalization Of Bestiality Is Becoming A Key Issue For Libertarian Leaders”

    LMAO. 🙂 Why does Stevens care so much about this “issue”? Does it effect him personally? Just like age of consent laws, I bet he isn’t a fan of those either.

  158. Jill Pyeatt

    If you post it, I’d like to suggest you leave “Libertarian Party” off the title. If the whole title is there, who knows how other news sources will use it?

    (Yes, I’ll know I’ll be criticized for this comment).

  159. Krzysztof Lesiak Post author

    Wait…actual Libertarians support legalizing bestiality? Tom Knapp? For real?

    Like, fuck. Come on. Aside from the fact that it’s disgusting, inhumane, immoral, sick and gross, the animal can’t give consent…so yeah, it does fucking violate the Non-Agression Principle.

    Only one party is giving consent to the sexual relations…fuck it, this isn’t a topic worthy for any discussion. Stevens and his Constitution Party counterpart Grundmann should both go in for some psychiatric help.

  160. paulie

    The LP “presidential candidates” he mentions are Carl Person, who was unhappy with Tom Stevens’ decision to highlight this issue and fired him as campaign manager as a result, and Sam Sloan. What percentage of delegate votes did those two get?

    He also mentions Tiffany Briscoe, who was removed as the nominee of a party that went on to get on zero state ballots and folded for lying about her background and qualifications.

    There’s also one of his associates in the Queens LP, former LP member Tom Knapp, and Lexxi Stray (the Dog Park Princess).

    Then he writes about Peter Singer, an author who is, as far as I know, not a libertarian.

    Oh, and his own attempt to establish a holiday in “honor” of a colonial American teenager executed for bestiality.

    Becoming a key issue? More like Tom Stevens desperately seeking attention.

  161. Krzysztof Lesiak Post author

    @

    I’ll just refer to him as the crazy deranged fucker who heards up the Objectivist Party/Personal Freedom Party/whatever other dumb one person “political party” he’s created. As far as I’m concerned, he’s no Libertarian. And I like the LP a lot, and I plan on joining them in a few months, so of course I wouldn’t want to inadvertedly hurt them because of one crazy nutjob who isn’t even a legitimate LP member.

    Wait. I just finished this article. At his own request, I posted enough of Stevens’ complete filth in the past and gave him WAYYY more attention than he ever deserved. I’m not going to make the same mistake again. This article literally almost makes me want to puke.

    Fuck Tom Stevens.

  162. paulie

    Chris,

    Knapp can speak for himself, but he’s speaking as someone who has renounced electoral politics, not as a candidate, party spokesman or anything like that. I would think that he would agree that it would be monumentally stupid for a political party to make this a “key issue.”

    The only way legalizing bestiality is a libertarian idea is if you want to get rid of all animal cruelty laws. And while some libertarians do believe that, that would be another issue which it would be very, very stupid to push politically.

  163. Krzysztof Lesiak Post author

    From the Stevens article:

    “Will this issue eventually reach the Supreme Court of the United States? Only time will tell but one thing is certain, the Libertarian Party and some of its leaders have inadvertently sparked a modern Zoosexual Rights Movement and the reaction from others in the Libertarian Party has been explosive, some saying they are prepared to “shoot dead” anyone advocating for the legalization of bestiality. Deep emotions are involved in the debate over the decriminalization of bestiality and it is possible this issue could cause the Libertarian Party to implode.”

    What a lying, delusional, disgusting motherfucker this guy is.

  164. Jill Pyeatt

    The article does make me question his Stevens’ understanding of the world around him.

    If it ever makes it out to the public, hopefully most people will think it’s just outlandish satire.

  165. Waldemar Testarossa Fiumente

    Lexxi Stray (the Dog Park Princess) says do “knot” fuck Tom Stevens…forget Tom Stevens.

  166. Krzysztof Lesiak Post author

    @295

    I’d say it’d be politically suicidal. I can’t off the top of my head think of a bigger societal taboo. Hell, I’d rather have a beer (metaphorically speaking…sort of) with a neo-Nazi skinhead than someone like Tom Stevens.

    Although I have to say, a libertarian issue that would be stupid to push politically is one I have a vested interest in: abolishing the drinking age. 🙂

  167. Young Rooster

    Tom “let’s play doctor” Stevens:

    “Will this issue eventually reach the Supreme Court of the United States? Only time will tell”

    Will rainbows eventually shoot out of my ass? Only time will tell…

    ” but one thing is certain, the Libertarian Party and some of its leaders ”

    Not one of the people Stevens talks about in his article is a LP leader.

    “have inadvertently sparked a modern Zoosexual Rights Movement ”

    I’ve sparked bigger movements on the toilet most mornings.

    “it is possible this issue could cause the Libertarian Party to implode.”

    Keep wishing, Tommy boy.

    KL:

    “What a lying, delusional, disgusting motherfucker this guy is.”

    If he is a mother fucker, does that also mean he is a son of a bitch?

    Jill:

    “hopefully most people will think it’s just outlandish satire.”

    It probably is.

  168. DaveTerry

    @300; “Tom “let’s play doctor” Stevens:

    Don’t you mean. Tom “let’s play veterinarian” Stevens? :>)

  169. Loves Puppies

    Is that Tom Stevens over there? Oh oh, he’s headed this way. Lock up the kids and pets.

  170. Jill Pyeatt

    I found this review of a new book by Larken Rose by G. Edward Griffin (who wrote “The Creature from Jekyll Island”). Earlier in the month I mentioned that I’d like to post some information about anarchism, since it’s a topic that is becoming increasingly discussed by many libertarians and other liberty-minded people.

    IT CAN’T HAPPEN HERE, by Larken Rose
    Review by G. Edward Griffin, 2013 Jun 8

    Visually, this documentary consists of quotations and historic news clips of tyrants, such as Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, and also of police action in the US. The narration is clear and well delivered. Overall, it is well done and effectively holds one’s attention.

    The message is powerful and hard hitting. It offers an overview of the nature of tyranny and focuses on the barriers to tyranny that used to exist in the US but which have been systematically eroded.

    As is often the case, the difficult part is at the end when it comes to solutions. Rose sees no merit in trying to regain control of the present system and concludes that only armed resistance is the answer. He says that not even that will work as long as the masses embrace the collectivist mindset, which now is the case. We conclude, therefore, that, without a movement to change the mass mindset (which he does not include as part of the solution) or a movement to gain control over the power centers of society (which he rejects as unachievable), there is nothing left but armed resistance on the part of a small minority.

    Rose does not deal with the difference between revolution and revolt. Revolutions are fought by highly organized and disciplined forces, usually regional governments (such as the thirteen colonial governments in the American Revolution) or by political factions aligned with leaders in command of standing armies or guerilla forces. Revolts are spontaneous, emotional surges of people who are filled with rage against a hated oppressor, but they are without leadership, organization, training, discipline, communication, armaments, funding, strategy, or ideology.

    Revolutions in history have a fair record of success, but revolts are always crushed. Without making this distinction, It Can’t Happen Here defaults to advocacy of revolt, which would be a horrible waste of human life with no chance whatsoever of success.

    Therefore, this is similar to many previous attempts to “lead the charge”. It offers no realistic solution. Early segments of the program are excellent and provide insight to many present trends but, without a realistic solution, this message could lead viewers to despair or, worse, to revolt.

    Now, if only Rose would include a small section about the potential for resistance by state governments, it would be a different story. If enough of the states should regain their sense of sovereignty and stand against federal tyranny, there would be a chance for success, even without firing a single shot. The threat of force often is better than the use of force.

  171. Nick Hensley

    Independent Lee Sowers is running for Charlotte City Council. I’m currently trying to help him find resources and volunteers. If you want to volunteer to get on the ballot, email me at modernwhig@yahoo.com – I’m brushing off the email account from my MWP days (those were dark times…).

  172. Nick Hensley

    It was trip.

    A lot of the people involved didn’t have any political experience or knew how to hold a meeting, there was a lot of infighting around three or four different groups – or people. We were constantly fighting.

    There was an ever shifting lineup of leadership so things were disorganized.

    There wasn’t a clear vision on what we were trying to build at that time. Someone would go do something to pull the party one direction and then someone would go do something to pull it in another.

    A lot of stress.

  173. Chuck Moulton

    LNC chair Geoff Neale to the state chairs list:

    Carla Howell will continue to serve as Executive Director through July 31, 2013.

    Effective August 1, 2013, Carla Howell will take on the role of Political Director.

    Also effective August 1, 2013, Wes Benedict will start as Executive Director.

  174. Jill Pyeatt

    Wow! What an unexpected turn of events!

    And congratulations to Wes Benedict–we’ll be glad to have you back!!

  175. Stewart Flood

    This is a very interesting turn of events. It isn’t really “starting over” with a new ED, since Wes has experience in the position and can hit the ground running. Carla’s skill set may make her a very good PD.

    I like it.

  176. Concerned Citizen

    Now that MySpace is dead, any suggestions on where I can post the Functional Fillmore Frugal blog?

    Also, this page loads slow because of all the videos. Can we keep this in mind for next month?

  177. paulie

    I had a heads up about Wes coming back, but I wasn’t sure if I heard it anywhere other than executive session, so I didn’t talk about it.

    Blogging: wordpress.

    Videos: yes, more please 🙂

  178. Jill Pyeatt

    We’re just having some fun on a Friday night, CC.

    I was going to suggest WordPress, also.

    The videos don’t seem to slow down my computers.

    Also, CC, I’ll post your second part here when you’re ready. Just email it to me.

  179. Krzysztof Lesiak Post author

    I’d suggest Blogger, at least to start off. Blogger is generally easier to use, it’s automatically linked with your Google account, and the free version has more options such as layout and designs than what WordPress offers for free. Overall, WordPress may be better and more professional, but you can always transfer your entire over blog from either one of these sites.

    I’d suggest researching both – they’re the titans of the blogging world.

  180. Deran

    Sammy Hagar still putting it out. The Russian hip hop is good too. Were both those videos Leningrad, paulie?

    One last video for now. Barbara Lynn. Self-taught left-handed guitarist. The studio stuff she is known for pales in comparison to this live tune. I wish I’d been old enough to see her live when this was on TV.

    http://youtu.be/jAnSyQA_fT4

  181. paulie

    Were both those videos Leningrad, paulie?

    Only one. The other one is someone named Mr. Saruman that I never heard of, just found the video from surfing related videos.

    Another one from Ill Bill

  182. Dave Terry

    Chris @323; Pink Floyd?

    Is this an allusion to Floyd’s sexuality?

    Let’s hear it for;
    Ray Charles, The Platters, The Supremes, Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye (no sexual pun intended).

    Oh yeah and Elvis, the token white guy!

  183. Melty

    What Sarah Palin said on TV in response to a question about starting a “Freedom Party” seems newsworthy.

  184. Melty

    June 29th, Fox News …saw it on Daily Caller

    she sed da ways it s goin libertarian-minded folks may have no place in Repub nor Demcrat Party and hafta go about politics somehow independent of sed parties

  185. Dave Terry

    Now that Charlie Sheen isn’t on 2-1/2 Men, there isn’t anything that is deliriously inane AND funny.

    Sarah Palin running for President in prime-time MIGHT be blessed relief for Summer TV viewers. .

  186. paulie

    I don’t think she has any clue on how hard it is to start a new party and get it on the ballot all over the country.

  187. George Phillies

    Restore the Fourth

    Please forward to all your email lists:

    Restore the Fourth is a grassroots, non-partisan, non-violent movement that seeks to organize and assemble nationwide protests on July 4th, 2013. Protesters in over 100 cities across America will gather to demand that the government of the United States of America adhere to its constitutionally dictated limits and respect the Fourth Amendment.
    http://www.RestoretheFourth.net provides a detailed list of protest locations.
    http://www.reddit.com/r/restorethefourth gives far more information.

    And no matter where you are you can always send a message with

    Wear Black on the Fourth https://www.facebook.com/events/351363251656735/

    Caution, cognitive dissonance alert: the first two listed sponsors on Facebook are an anti-war-on-drugs group and a second amendment group.

    Past Coverage on Daily Kos includes:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/12/1215735/-RestoreTheFourth-Anti-Surveillance-Action-Guide
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/11/1215273/-Restore-the-Fourth

    Here is the Restore the Fourth Press Release:

    Press Release
    PRESS STATEMENT
    For immediate release

    RESTORE THE FOURTH TO HOLD PROTESTS ON JULY 4TH FOR FOURTH AMENDMENT RIGHTS

    United States of America (June 18, 2013) —

    Restore the Fourth is a grassroots, non-partisan, non-violent movement that seeks to organize and assemble nationwide protests on July 4th, 2013. Protesters in over 100 cities across America will gather to demand that the government of the United States of America adhere to its constitutionally dictated limits and respect the Fourth Amendment. http://www.RestoretheFourth.net provides a detailed list of protest locations.

    Restore the Fourth maintains that justification of the Fourth Amendment beyond the original text need not be given; the legitimacy of which is self-evident. “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.” The Fourth Amendment of the Bill of Rights clearly protects all citizens’ assets, both digital and physical, against searches and seizures without warrant; they aim to assert those rights. They insist that the proper channels of government work to ensure that all policy complies with the supreme laws of the United States of America in their entirety.

    Restore the Fourth requests that American citizens’ right to privacy is respected and stands with the Electronic Frontier Foundation and StopWatching.us on their open letter to Congress. As informed members of the American electorate, they endorse and echo the letter’s demands.

    1. Enact reform this Congress to Section 215 of the USA PATRIOT Act, the state secrets privilege, and the FISA Amendments Act to make clear that blanket surveillance of the Internet activity and phone records of any person residing in the U.S. is prohibited by law and that violations can be reviewed in adversarial proceedings before a public court;

    2. Create a special committee to investigate, report, and reveal to the public the extent of
    this domestic spying. This committee should create specific recommendations for legal
    and regulatory reform to end unconstitutional surveillance;

    3. Hold accountable those public officials who are found to be responsible for this
    unconstitutional surveillance.

    The July 4th demonstrations seek to demand an end to the unconstitutional surveillance methods employed by the U.S. government and to ensure that all future government surveillance is constitutional, limited, and clearly defined.

    Restore the Fourth aims to ensure that the will of the people is reflected in the government of the United States of America. This movement intends to bring an end to twelve years of Fourth Amendment abuses, and demonstrate the need for a return to the Constitution. All Americans should stand with them in this cause to protect the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution.

    -30-

    For a list of protests:

    http://www.restorethefourth.net/protests/

    I will note two, because in a sense it started here

    Boston, MA the Old State House
    Please join us in planning and attending a protest at 10:00 am on the 4th of July against the NSA, PRISM, and the Patriot Act. We will be meeting to quietly and respectfully listen to the reading of The Declaration of Independence at the Old State House at 09:30 am.

    Organizational Meeting: Sunday 6/23 – 2pm – Boston Common – Soldiers and Sailors Monument (Mt. Mary Jane)

    and here

    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
    Washington Square Park July 4, 2013 restorethe4thphilly@gmail.com
    http://phillyrestore.tumblr.com

    I offer a short sampler, the front end of the alphabet, of listed protests.

    Birmingham, Alabama July 4, 2013 rt4bham@gmail.com

    Arizona Tempe July 4, 2013 Tempe Beach Park July 4, 2013 4:00pm restorethefourthaz@gmail.com

    Arkansas Fayetteville July 4, 2013 75 N. East Avenue, Fayetteville July 4, 2013 10:00am /u/KOVUDOM

    California Huntington Beach July 4, 2013 Main St. and Yorkstown Ave. July 4, 2013 9:30 am http://www.occevent.com/ Apparently this protest is taking place during an annual 4th of July parade – assumedly, the protesters will be marching in the parade.

    California Madera July 4, 2013 Madera Marketplace July 4, 2013 10:00am Peace Madera We will be meeting at the corner on Cleveland Avenue. Details can be found at http://www.peacemadera.org

    California San Diego July 4, 2013 Balboa Park fountain near the Reuben H. Space Theater to Sen. Feinstein’s office at 750 B Street July 4, 2013 11:00:00 rt4sandiego@gmail.com

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