Riley J. Hood: The Incorporated Church: The Worst of Both Worlds

Published August 8, 2013 on Riley J. Hood is the chairman of the Constitution Party of Wisconsin. He ran for the U.S. Senate in 2012 as a write-in candidate and received 70 votes. 

“These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority.
Let no man despise thee.” Titus 2:15

By Riley J. Hood-CPoW State Chairman

            Every so often, discussions come up about the Free Church vs. the State Church. In a Free Church, the State doesn’t support it with taxes, neither does the State tax or otherwise regulate it. Part of the word Free, in that term: is Tax Free. The State Church is State controlled and State supported.

For the last 100 years, the majority of Churches have incorporated at the State Level, and since 1954, most Churches are further controlled at the federal level through the IRS 501(C)-3 Regulation. Both these models introduced the corporation; a “creature of Caesar.” The Civil Government heads the Church Inc. Under the State Church model, you have State Control, plus State support. In America today you have State Control, and State-based hostility. The State engages in extortion; by telling Pastors if you preach on certain things, you will lose your incorporated status. This is truly the worst of both worlds.

Does this State Chairman want to have a State Church? I have been accused of that by men who can’t abide the name of Jesus Christ. In my own words, the answer is no. I favor the Free Church, with no taxation and no regulation.  What has America endured since 1954 as a result of the Church being muzzled? This list isn’t and can’t be all inclusive; but here are a few examples I have been thinking about.

  • The removal of the Ten Commandments starting in 1963.
  • The de-facto legalization of Abortion, through the US Supreme Court’s decisions, Roe v. Wade, Doe v. Bolton and Casey v. Planned Parenthood. The de-facto legalization of sodomy through the Lawrence v. Texas decision.
  • Several mainline denominations promoting Planned Parenthood, Abortion, and various forms of sodomy because the civil government says it is okay now. Nearly all the rest of the Evangelical and Fundamentalist Churches are silent, whose answer is non-participation, neutrality and escapism. Nearly all the incorporated Churches counsel married couples to use birth control.
  • The appearance of watered down, mealy mouthed voter guides designed to make that particular party’s candidate look good, resorting to questions like, “Are you against partial birth abortion?” The man can be a pro-abort, but be dubbed pro-life because he is mildly against one to two percent of all abortions taking place.

Before 1954; every Political Party, except the Communist Party appealed to Christianity as the basis for their support. Even the Socialists, while riddled with Atheists, Evolutionists, and Agnostics still appealed to Christianity and promoted religious freedom as a differentiator between themselves and the Communists. Today, most parties are atheistic. There are a few smaller parties that appeal to Christianity, such as the Constitution Party.

Regarding the Constitution Party of Wisconsin, we are a Bible-based political party. Our stands do come from the US Constitution and Declaration of Independence; but we put the Bible over and above both of our nation’s founding documents. We respect the founding fathers, but we are not a cult of the founding fathers, and skepticism isn’t improved by putting the term “Jeffersonian” in front of it. In the election of 1800, the Presbyterian minister William Linn preached, “to vote for Jefferson is to sin against God.” Election sermons were common, not only teaching right principle from the pulpit, but instructing the congregation on where each candidate stood.  The “lesser of two evils,” was not a consideration. You only hear that kind preaching today in unlicensed Churches.  The IRS wouldn’t intimidate churches if the IRS didn’t exist.  CPoW means to abolish the IRS.  CPoW wants to end government interference in Church matters, because we think America needs more bold preaching, not less.

72 thoughts on “Riley J. Hood: The Incorporated Church: The Worst of Both Worlds

  1. Cody J. Quirk

    “Regarding the Constitution Party of Wisconsin, we are a Bible-based political party. Our stands do come from the US Constitution and Declaration of Independence; but we put the Bible over and above both of our nation’s founding documents…”

    Basically the Constitution Party is Theocratic, and not Constitutionalist -which is what I gather from what Mr. Bro Perm is saying.

  2. JD

    Finally, someone in the CP openly admits they favor the Bible as the book of law over the constitution. No one with even a basic understanding of the constitution can endorse the concept of state sponsored discrimination.

  3. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    Clues for the deliberately clueless –

    A) The Bible is the book of law upon which the Constitution is founded.

    B) An example of ” state sponsored discrimination ” are laws against murder as those who commit the crime are ” discriminated against ” and this because of the Biblical foundation of the laws of the nation. Hence such ” discrimination ” is a good thing; except for both murderers and others, such as the Socially Engineered hamsters/humans of our time, whose planned crimes are currently thwarted from occurring.

    C) Those who complain against putting the Bible over the Constitution and Declaration of Independence simply replace it with their own non and anti Biblical/Christian religious overlay. There is and will always be a religious foundation to any law, culture, or society whether it be Biblical; i.e.; Christian, or not. Those who squak about ” theocracy ” simply want to replace the Christian/Biblical foundations of the nation with their own anti-Christian religion; i.e.; their own theocracy/religion ( which in 99%+ times is Humanism ). They will complain about the Wisconsin CP ” openly ” proclaiming the Bible while they will never openly proclaim their own religion of Humanism nor their desire to have its principles replace those of Christianity.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. please to see Mr. Hood proclaim the Bible without reservation and hence stand upon the foundation of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence

  4. Cody J. Quirk


    Mr. Hood obviously doesn’t believe in the First Amendment, nor the prohibition on Religious Tests and has admitted that the Wisconsin CP is restrictive in their membership based on one’s personal, or religious beliefs.

  5. JD

    I have admitted many times before that I am a conservative Christian. I always will be. That does not mean that I am so moronic to believe that the US constitution is a christian document.

    The colonies were all founded based on religious principles. This is a fact. We must remember that much changed between the time of the first colonist and the founding of the nation. By the time we readied ourselves for independence we were no more a christian nation than we were a royalist nation. While christianity was practiced still its prominance had waned. That is why we call the period in the early 1800’s America the second great awakening because immediately prior the church had gone stagnant in these United States.

    What took over in prominence was new universal thoughts. Newer movements such as deism, unitarianism, universalism, and most importantly freemasonry were the guiding lights of revolutionary thought. Just fyi there were more masons who signed the declaration of independence than there were theologians.

    There are no references in either the Delaration of Independence, the Articles, or in the Constitution regarding the Abrahamic God or any specific faith. Only a couple of minor references to the Creator which is the general deist and freemason term.

    I am never going to deny that the Bible, Apocrypha, and Nephite Record should be the rule and guide of faith for all mankind. We are not talking about that. We are talking about the rule of law as it exist in these United States. The law of this land forbids state sponsored discrimination. Until the CP and other so called constitutionalist parties realize that they will forever be relegated to the nut job category.

  6. JD

    State sponsored discrimination is just that. The government, at every level, must maintain respect and dignity in it’s dealings with all lawful residents. The government may not enact laws or regulations which bring favor or dis-favor on any naturally occuring demographic, either a person or persons, on the sole basis of them being part of said demographic.

    For example blacks can not receive favor or dis-favor on the simple fact they are black. Homosexuals may not receive favor or dis-favor for their sexuality. Christians may not receive favor or dis-favor on the basis of their religion.

    The only one of the FEC recognized parties that has a true non-descrimination policy in both party and policy is the Libertarian Party. The CP would as well if they simply switched to a policy of neutrality on the issue of homosexuality and its marriage incarnation. Create a policy that takes the power of marriage and marriage control away from the state. Leave solely to churches.

    Throughout all of history marriage has been a religious ritual. That is it’s basis. Even in very isolated locations where tribal chiefs perform weddings it should be noted that these men almost always hold an ecclesiastical office as well. If you want the state to stop performing homosexual marriages then stop them from performing all marriages. Return it toit’s religious roots.

    Some churches practice only monogamous heterosexual marriages, others practice homosexual blessings and marriages, others still will practice a plural version of these. Let them deal with God on their own accord. It does no good to force them to conform to a particular theological model as it violates their free agency which God gave them.

    Realize since Christ’s mortal death and the end of his first Earthly ministry their has not been one Christianity but many. There are currently more than 40,000 Christian denominations operating in the world and most have a presence in these United States. They must all practice their free agency with God being the judge not the state.

  7. Cody J. Quirk

    Not only that, but you also have the state-sponsored religious discrimination (the Salem Puritan Colony as the worst example), that the Founding Fathers fervently opposed, and yet people like Riley Hood, John Lofton, and others- advocate for.

  8. JD

    I know Cody. I am opposed to such things as well. From legal stand point I look at things like Salem as quirks of history. I try to ignore them theologically as they are clearly not of God.

    What happened with the colonies is actually very sad. Each colony was founded on the basis free religious practice but only the practice of the state religion was allowed.

    Thus we have Separatists in Plymouth, Putitans is Massachusetts, Catholics in Maryland, Quakers in Pennsylvania, etc. Only Rhode Island was generally free of persecution.

    Even in the LDS tradition we have Joseph Smith prohibiting freedom of the press in Nauvoo and Brigham Young’s political and religious despotism in Deseret/Utah. James Strang also abused his office on Beaver Island.

    Cody, are you still involved with the Nevada IAP?

  9. Cody J. Quirk

    I agree with you.

    However on the LDS side, the matters of ‘freedom of the press’ in Nauvoo was because of the many anti-Mormon newspapers that were inciting violence against the LDS Church, in which desperate measures where taken in response.

    BY’s reign in Deseret/Utah, while collectivist-oriented, wasn’t totalitarian at all, and while there was some discrimination of non-LDS in Utah territory (due to the clannish mindset of the Saints, thanks to years of being persecuted and forced to move from state to state), there was no outright persecution of non-LDS residents.

  10. JD

    Joseph Smith was still wrong. It was no different than what the mob did in independence when they destroyed the Book of Commandments. BTW the press Joseph had destroyed was the property of another LDS sect not an anti-mormon paper. It was simply one opposed to the Nauvoo era innovations in the church. Just because they are prophets does not make them perfect. Brigham Young was also terrible harse in dealing with dissent or theological difference.

    I suppose you are a life long member of the Utah church and are only reciting what you have been taught. You might find it interesting to read “scattering of the saints” from the John Whitmer Historical Society which is an ecumenical study society made up of members from various LDS backgrounds.

    Any church that does not allow you to have friends or family members from a supposed rival group can not be of God. The same holds true for any church that won’t allow certain questions to be asked. Especially when asking questions is the most basic tenet of the faith. See James 1:5.

    While I am a member of the Community of Christ I know we are not perfect. We made apartheid style silencing a regular act in the 1980’s. The LDS church must come to grips with its past mistakes and acknowledge them and it must allow open discussion. That is why I left.

  11. Cody J. Quirk

    And on BY-,_the_Dictator

    I’m actually a convert to the LDS Church, I was raised as a Evangelical (Calvary Chapel) and my parents were pretty anti-Mormon (my mom more so then my dad), which is why me and her are not close, and I am quite well-versed in LDS Church History & Doctrine, since they gave me a very hard time about being in the church and I constantly had to defend my own faith with them.
    I’ve studied the issues & history on my own from both viewpoints- and to me, the LDS one holds water in my book.

    I agree with you on the third paragraph, and while the LDS Church never officially encouraged members to shun ‘rivals’, yet thanks to the former clannish mindset of the Utah Saints, it used to be practiced often in the old days, on a inconspicuous scale.
    On the latter, that was somewhat the case back in the old days, but the Church now doesn’t do that and is much more open publicly, especially in admitting past errors.

  12. JD

    Read Steven Shields “Divergent Paths”. The fact of the matter is the church does not allow you to go through the temple if you have friends in the Reorganization or other LDS groups. I wasn’t because of that. I also had to deal with the branch president when I told them I wanted to attend a Bible college.

    The LDS church is 100% guilty of covering up it’s past. Such as aged Alpheus Cutler being excommunicated because he and his troop were too sick and old to make the trip to Utah. They were loyal to the Twelve and were only asking to stay in Iowa.

    The sources you cite are from a Mormon(Utah) apologist website. They are not neutral sources. Either way Cody you defended an action that violated the first amendment of the US Constitution.

    I also want you to think about something. Try to remember the last time you sang “Praise to the Man” during a worship service. That is worship of Joseph Smith. Joseph was a prophet but he isn’t God. The RLDS changed the words and name of the song to “Praise to the Lord” in 1871.

    I think your faith would be strengthened if you could read the works of men like David Whitmer, Steven Shields, the Church of Jesus Christ, and Church of Christ(Temple Lot). I also encourage you to read the Book of Commandments and see how different it is from the D&C of 1835 and the current LDS edition. You should also investigate some of Joseph’s failings as a person. Check out Joseph’s work as a treasure hunter and the Kinderhook Plates.

    I served as a branch missionary in the LDS church. I will never refute the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. I had my life threatened because of the book. I also had my life saved by it.

  13. Cody J. Quirk

    “Read Steven Shields “Divergent Paths”. The fact of the matter is the church does not allow you to go through the temple if you have friends in the Reorganization or other LDS groups. I wasn’t because of that. I also had to deal with the branch president when I told them I wanted to attend a Bible college.”

    One of the questions asked in the interview for a temple recommend, or worthiness to hold one, is about any connections to any groups or individual(s) that teaches, or practices, things not in agreement with LDS church teachings. I’m sure that some Bishops and Stake Presidents have interpreted AND applied this question (and the other questions) a bit broadly and have gone overboard with the individual that simply had friends with the CofC (RLDS) Church; FYI we don’t view leaders of our church as infallible.
    However, to judge a whole denomination based on one personal interaction with a individual leader or member is quite unfair, and silly.

    I do recall a story from an Elder in my old ward about a young man whose birth parents belonged to one of the polygamist offshoots (he was adopted), that was preparing to get sealed to his girlfriend in the temple- approval for both his recommend and getting sealed had to come all the way from the First Presidency itself because he still maintained friendly relations with his birth parents & relatives of the fundamentalist community, and it concerned church officials. Yet the First Presidency approved it and he was able to get sealed.

    “The LDS church is 100% guilty of covering up it’s past. Such as aged Alpheus Cutler being excommunicated because he and his troop were too sick and old to make the trip to Utah. They were loyal to the Twelve and were only asking to stay in Iowa.”

    There were instances where the Church did downplay or subtly attempt to hide things- due to both trying conditions and circumstances at the time when it was still facing persecution from the federal government and the outside world, and even at the time when the Church still had the ‘tribalistic’ mindset which lasted a generation or two after the turbulent pioneer days. Yet the Church is nothing like that now and has become very open to public inquiry and journalistic investigation at the present.

    As for Alpheus Culter- there was more to the story then him simply being too sick to travel to Utah. Right around Joseph’s Martyrdom, he was assigned to undertake a mission to the Native Americans, and while the Twelve attempted to maintain good relations with him, rumors were circling around that he was abusing his power and apostatizing- many of the Twelve tried to smooth things over, but due to the ferocity of the rumors, and because he refused to move to Utah, despite Brigham Young begging him to do so and offered him protection from his critics and enemies, Cutler still refused, and so he was ex’d. Yet even right before Cutler’s death and after he already started his own sect, Brigham still tried to bring him to Utah and was willing to forgive him, despite Cutler’s constant rebuffs.
    And that’s just from the Wikipedia article on Alpheus, footnotes included-

    “The sources you cite are from a Mormon(Utah) apologist website. They are not neutral sources. Either way Cody you defended an action that violated the first amendment of the US Constitution.”

    The info on the FAIRLDS site is fairly accurate and despite being from a LDS standpoint, is somewhat objective as well. I’ve compared their info to the info from non-LDS sites and find it to be almost in conformity, unlike the distortions, misinterpretations, and falsehood spewed by websites critical of the Church, especially the anti-Mormon websites. Too bad your own prejudice against the LDS Church plays into the anti-Mormon agenda.

    Oh and FYI, FAIRLDS has a P.O. Box in Redding, California -so it is not Utah based, lol.

    Now according to your interpretation, the LDS Church violated the First Amendment on the Nauvoo Expositor matter- but then again the U.S. Constitution did not prohibit states from infringing on freedom of the press (state governments had more leeway back then). Joseph also didn’t destroy the paper on a whim, but spent several days with the Nauvoo City Council debating on what legal action to take on the paper and finally concluded (especially in consideration of William Blackstone’s philosophy’s on law) that the paper had to be destroyed. LDS Apostle Dallin H. Oaks also addressed the issue in a legal editorial as well.
    Also remember the Alien and Sedition Acts, of which John Adams and even Thomas Jefferson and their parties (Federalist & Democratic-Republican) used and abused- so the First Amendment (according to the same interpretation here) has even been abused by the Founding Fathers themselves, and the U.S. government, back in that era.

    You need to understand that freedom of speech, even in a society that is free and has a limited federal government, is not absolute- there will still be certain areas (including private property), where it will still be regulated, or supressed.

    “I also want you to think about something. Try to remember the last time you sang “Praise to the Man” during a worship service. That is worship of Joseph Smith. Joseph was a prophet but he isn’t God. The RLDS changed the words and name of the song to “Praise to the Lord” in 1871.”

    We sang it in church about a month ago, and the song doesn’t praise Joseph as God, but as the Prophet of the Restoration, and it especially doesn’t give him more credit then God & Jesus-
    Your arguments against the LDS Church are not holding up here, and you understand little on my knowledge of my own faith.

    “I think your faith would be strengthened if you could read the works of men like David Whitmer, Steven Shields, the Church of Jesus Christ, and Church of Christ(Temple Lot). I also encourage you to read the Book of Commandments and see how different it is from the D&C of 1835 and the current LDS edition. You should also investigate some of Joseph’s failings as a person. Check out Joseph’s work as a treasure hunter and the Kinderhook Plates.”

    Funny, this from a member of a church that used to deny that Joseph Smith ever practiced polygamy, limited general leadership to those descended from Joseph Smith (not in Biblical conformity), and today ordain women to the priesthood and marry same-sex couples (both of which I personally do not agree with, and whose doctrinal conformity with the Bible I find highly open to question). Sorry, but the Community of Christ church is not for me or even in agreement with my personal views, even if I respect your right to do your own thing within your church and for your church to do it’s own thing too.

    It’s a no-brainer that Joseph wasn’t perfect and made mistakes, even he has admitted to his personal failings and character flaws numerous times in both the History of the Church and in other documents, yet what he preached was correct and perfect, IMO.

    On the matter of Joseph Smith as a ‘treasure hunter’-

    And on the matter of the Kinderhook plates-

    I also don’t agree with the doctrine of the Temple Lot church, or in the manner in which they were founded, nor with the other break away sects that you cite, even though some of their leaders were sincere Christians and had good intentions.

    That’s good that you accept the Book of Mormon and it’s truthfulness, even if I don’t agree with your approach to it and your own faith.
    However the LDS Church and it’s history isn’t as false and black & white as you claim it is- sorry, but I did my research. Hopefully you’re prejudice against the LDS faith will subside in due time.

  14. Thomas L. Knapp

    Anyone who expects perfection from their church or its leaders will eventually be disappointed.

    The only reason that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young et. al get more “personal morals scrutiny” than Peter, Paul et. al is that they lived their lives more recently and in an age where records were kept better and for longer and where opposing views were more likely to be preserved along with orthodox claims.

  15. JD

    Cody, I am simply asking you to study. The truth of our common history will not be found in any one particular churches historical departments. It is found through sincere ecumenical investigation.

    I said fair mormon was associated with the Utah church. I didn’t say Mormon church because the term Mormon applies to many churches. That site is straight Utah LDS. Why would I care where it’s physical location is?

    I am not trying to cover up anything about the Community of Christ. We make mistakes. I have already acknowledged times when we have silenced individuals. We stopped that practice and have, on several occasions, offered to accept them back no questions asked. We were mistaken in our tradition of passing authority through the Smith family. It was never actually part of our written creed. We ceased it because it was not required. We have also acknowledged polygamy as a practice of Joseph Smith Jr. officially for at least 50 years. Even his son admitted that it was possible. I personally don’t care because Joseph was in full blown apostasy by 1834 when he allowed the name of the church to change contrary to Logos, the written word of God.

    As for women in the priesthood it is not prohibited in the New Testament or Book of Mormon. Homosexuality in the priesthood is a stretch at best. The reasoning is we are a grace church. We place more emphasis on peace, hope, love, and joy than we do on dogma. That is why we have no temple ordinances. Oddly enough those are not found in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Book of Commandments, or the 1835 D&C.

    As for the Nauvoo Expositor read the text of it. There was only one 4 page edition ever printed. Check a more neutral source like wikipedia. You will also see that Joseph by passed the legal procedure established in the state of Illinois for dealing with such things.

    I have never and will never provide information to anyone from an anti-LDS website. The John Whitmer Historical Society is an LDS group. You can also check out Sunstone magazine. Just because it contradicts a particular church’s story does not mean it is wrong.

    Cody, you are fine to belong to the church. I respect all LDS sects because Saints make faith the whole reason for their existance. What you don’t have a right to do is accuse me of being anti-mormon. Just fyi, I would be friends with many Mormons but they won’t have anything to do with me because I am Community of Christ. I am also a BYU Cougar football fan. I am not opposed to the existence of any LDS sect. I am merely opposed to the actions of some.

    When I went to the Peace Temple in Independence my wife and I were in a tour group with Utah LDS members. When the tour was over I enquired if they were such. When they said yes I told them that it was great to see them there and that I had once been a member. They turned up their noses a ran away. In my church’s temple and they treat us with contempt. No decent person of any faith should act in such a way.

    I served as a branch missionary, I drove back and forth to Louisville to transport the missionaries. I have also had the misfortune of ministering to the forsaken, those shunned, and cast out. Some because they were gay, or goth, or because they asked too many questions. I hope you never feel the pain that so many former Mormons have had to feel. There is a reason 2/3rds of the living baptized members of the church are inactive.

    Community of Christ exist for those broken and down trodden souls. Not so we or they can be better than the rest of the world but so we can be better for the rest of the world. We exist to provide a refuge, no it isn’t Zion, but it is the best we can do. We have confessed our sins with broken hearts and contrite spirits. In our imperfect little church we worship one God according to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all others to do the same. Any may enter our temple for all are welcome in our faith.

    I never asked you to forsake yours or even deny your heritage. I asked you to read and you accuse me of being anti-mormon. That is the action of a scared small person. Just like Joseph was when he destroyed a rival paper. I am not angry or even hurt. I am disgusted that someone who claims the priesthood would choose to defend such actions or dare to make accusations of anti-mormonism against me. Go ahead and yell apostasy like your brethren are so fond of doing.

    We of the Reorganization are imperfect. There is none of us that is without sin or fault but at least we are aware of it and confess it. Despite our imperfection we gladly offer ministry and fellowship to all comers. Whether they are black, brown, yellow, gay, straight, trans, men, or women it makes no difference to us. We are called to bring peace, hope, love, and joy to all the world and in the name of Jesus Christ that is what we do, as best we can.

    I wish you all the best in the world in faith, knowledge, health, and happiness. If ever you suffer we will be there and so will the truth. I am done with this disturbance if you are. Shall we cease?

  16. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    JD – With many comments possible and only a short time to do so : In regard to your 1st paragraph in comment #7 above I note that here in California the Governor today signed what is referred to as the ” Bathroom Bill.” This allows any boy who decides that his ” gender identity ” is a girl to use the girls bathrooms and locker rooms at any time that he wishes.

    Hence – A) Was it ” state sponsored discrimination ” to previously stop any such insanity/psychosis?; B) is it possible to oppose ANY continuance and/or expansion of such Social Engineering evil and not commit ” state sponsored discrimination?”

    Additionally the Chicago school district recently announced that effective 2014 they will A) change their sex education classes from beginning in Grade 5 to beginning in Grade 1; and B) they will introduce the topic of ” Gender Identity ” at that time – TO FIRST GRADERS.

    Is it ” state sponsored discrimination,” or simply plain old discrimination, to oppose such utter evil?

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. a defender of children and hence not Socially Engineered, never politically correct, and never concerned about my ” image ”

    P.S. – In regard to your LDS discussions I believe that Brigham Young himself led a massacure(sp?) of a wagon train where the train was attacked and the men were offered safe passage if they surrendered their weapons after which they were instead slaughtered.

  17. JD

    Don, my understanding of the bathroom issue is that it depends on if states create regulations based on sex or gender. If the bathrooms are separated on an equal basis regarding sex then there is no problem. If gender is the official basis then the state has made a mistake because modern social scientist have begun considering that flexible based on mental state.

    No the bathroom issue is pathetic and not a case ofstate sponsored discrimination. It would be discrimination if the public school said no transgendered person could attend school or go to the bathroom at all. One way around the issue would be to get rid of public schools. A private entitiy would be allowed to make their own bathroom rules.

    Private individuals may be opposed to whatever they wish. Nothing you mentioned in 19 even hints at state or private discrimination. I agree with you on those particular issues.

    I have never and never will say that our country is not being run by crazy people who are too liberal for their own good. I believe that those people are causing harm. I have admitted I am a conservative. I just have a low tolerance for state sponsored discrimination.

    Don, you are also correct about the Mountain Meadows Massacre. I didn’t want to bring it up because it is the most groos example of Brigham Young’s tyranny. I felt it was kind of unsporting for the purposes of debate to bring it up. BY was also the catalyst behind many of our early church members needing to leave the state under cover of darkness because he was practicing blood atonement.

    My church has many problems as most do. I think our main problem is that we have too many church leaders that were educated at very liberal seminaries belonging to very liberal faiths. In the end, so long as the goal remains the same, I can tolerate the liberals.

  18. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    JD – Several years ago I was reading a book review in the Datebook section of the San Francisco Chronicle.

    I forget the topic of the book but about midway through the review the writer suddenly made a comment regarding NAMBLA, the national child molestors organization whose motto is ” Sex before 8 or it’s too late ” and whom I had filmed marching in the San Francisco ” Pride ” Parade ( what the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement presents to the world that it is ” proud ” of ) for many years ( about 5 in all ).

    His statement was that the biggest problem of NAMBLA was that it suffered from terrible PR and marketing. There was NO mention in any way that the molestation of children is/was wrong; only that their PR and Marketing were terrible.

    I mention this because the current campaign for legalization of pervert ( homosexual ) marriage is actually the Homosexual/Sodomy Movements answer to the problem mentioned in the article as EVERY argument put forth for its legalization is part of the same marketing/PR/Social Engineering ( S.E.) campaign that will be used to legalize the molestation of children.

    So you oppose child molestation? Via PR/marketing/S.E. molestation ( a bad thing ) will now be called ” love ” ( a good thing ). Hence opposition to what WAS called molestation will be transformed into opposition to ” love.” And who will/can oppose ” love?”

    Answer? Via the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement PR/S.E./marketing campaign only ” h8ters ” will oppose such ” love.”

    The answer will also include the standard attacks that are now used – ” bigots,” ” haters,” ” homophobes,” ” religious fanatics,” yada, yada, yada.

    If you oppose ” love ” for the child you will be opposing their ” civil rights ” ( see here the article at my website which documents the United Nations push to develop/protect the ” sexual rights ” of children ).

    This brings me back to ” state sponsored discrimination ” as legalization of the emotional pathology of homosexuality via marriage ( or in fact any other way ) opens up the pathology/sickness/evil – and especially the religion/philosophy behind it – in its war against our culture, society, and nation.

    This is because the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement is, bottom line an anti-Christian religion founded upon Humanism, Satanism, and the philosophy/religion of Marquis De Sade.

    That is why the legalization of pervert marriage can NEVER be an end goal of the H/S Movement as has already been illustrated by the passage of the ” Bathroom Bill ” in California; a Social Engineering program meant to reeducate/shatter the Christian moral foundation of ALL students within the public school system school; i.e.; to produce the maximum number of psychotics who will be shattered shells of themselves through their existence ( not, and never again, life ). This is only the first attack of countless to follow.

    My point? Your support ( or that of anyone else inclusive of both naïve and many outright evil people – such as can be found in abundance at IPR ) of homosexual; i.e.; pathological; marriage sets the stage for the virtual automatic progression of the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement to its ultimate Socially Engineered victory, its ” Holy Grail,” of the legalization of child molestation in all possible forms.

    In 40 years our culture has been Socially Engineered to accept the unthinkable – pervert; i.e.; pathological; marriage as a ” civil right.”

    With this ” victory ” of the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement ALL of the pieces are already in place to easily achieve, and much sooner than 40 more years, their goal of molestation legalization.

    And I present that your argument against ” state sponsored discrimination ” will be one of keys to their victory.

    Question(s) – does the state have a right to oppose a, or any, social/cultural cancer? Does the state have a right to oppose child molestation? Even if it is repackaged/remarketed as ” love?” Even if ( and when ) it is repackaged as a ” civil right?” Or is ANY such opposition ” state sponsored discrimination?” Does the state have a, or any, right to oppose the ” sexual rights ” of children?” Even if the UN wants them to have such ” rights?”

    JD – Our nation, and the world ( see here the current attack against Russia ), is in the fight of its life against an anti-Christian and anti-life force whose intent is to shatter the souls of countless children for generations to come. Their intent is to destroy the Christian foundations of our nation and replace them with the Satanic and Humanist opposite religion and all of its totally sick beliefs. To bring mass death, both literal and of the soul, to countless millions.

    Ultimate result? The end of our nation with untold tragedies, death, and destruction.

    Why? Because as Madison said, the Constitution was made for a moral and religious people. An anti-moral and Satanic/Humanist populace will be totally unable to survive, much less to simply remain at a static condition.

    And the reason? Because we, of their earlier times, failed them because we lacked the courage ( love – REAL love ) to challenge and defeat the utter evil which is descending upon our nation and world.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. a soldier in the Army of Life

    P.S. – Should the Constitution Party abandon its opposition, even by becoming minimally or simply ” neutral,” to pervert marriage in order to gain votes?

    P.S. – Should the CP follow the lead of the Libertarian Party of having no moral foundation of any possible type and hence accepting of ANYTHING ( including child molestation/love ) if it repackaged as either a ” civil right ” and/or with the old canard of being ” a private matter between consenting adults ” where ” no one is hurt?”

    Do we abandon any and all opposition to outright evil so that we may ” look good ” and hence have a good ” image?”

    P.S. – Please refer to the 8/13 current article at entitled ” Call the LGBT Movement what is – evil

  19. Cody J. Quirk

    “P.S. – In regard to your LDS discussions I believe that Brigham Young himself led a massacure(sp?) of a wagon train where the train was attacked and the men were offered safe passage if they surrendered their weapons after which they were instead slaughtered.”


    “I felt it was kind of unsporting for the purposes of debate to bring it up. BY was also the catalyst behind many of our early church members needing to leave the state under cover of darkness because he was practicing blood atonement.”


  20. Cody J. Quirk

    JD, while we agree on many political things, we diverge on religious matters. I have studied the issues and the history and I do not agree with your take- in fact you do not seem to be as well-educated on LDS Church History & Doctrine as you claim to be, which makes your request to ‘study the issues’ quite laughable, especially on how your arguments have quite changed here since I refuted many of your previous arguments against the LDS Church in detail.

    I don’t agree with your take on the other religious topics, especially on the priesthood, temple ordinances, etc. So it’s really pointless to continue with me on that front.

    I’ve debated and torn down many critics of my faith various times before, whether they’re militantly anti, or simply like you- so it’s really pointless to take this debate on my faith any further since this thread has already gotten sidetracked enough.

  21. JD

    Cody, what have you done but present your churches point of view? You have not presented one non-LDS(Utah/Mormon) source except the bio of Father Cutler. When you choose neutral/ecumenical sources you can argue otherwise, it is an embarassment. As I said the truth exist between the church histories. I never asked you to believe as I do. I only asked you to explore the neutral sources. You refuse to do so. And when exactly was I critical of your faith? I criticized your church and your sources. It has nothing to do with your faith. When taken on their own the teachings of the Utah church are not terrible and have the ability to uplift and strengthen. It is their practices that I have a problem with. As I asked earlier, shall we cease?

    As far as my expertise, I never claimed to be an expert. I have read the complete Utah church history, Jospeh Smith teachings of the prophet, and all of your standard works. I have also read my churches standard works and history. You may add to that two books by Steven Shields, who is the worlds leading LDS historian, the schismatic book I mentioned earlier, the Book of Commandments, the 1835D&C, all available Temple Lot literature, Otto Fetting’s first twelve, and I have sent away for some from the Bickertonite church. Oh and I am in the process of finishing the standard works of the Remnant church and an 1830 copy of the Book of Mormon. Then just throw in the usual websites from the various belief systems and yes I have read many anti-mormon critiques. The funniest one is the parody Book of Pukei. So no compared to Steven Shields, Grant McMurry, John Hamer, or Richard Howard I am just an amateur.

    I will not converse with someone that doesn’t understand that consensual sex is just that. Perverted consensual sex is just that, consensual. I am not opposed to age of consent laws entirely. I believe we have had them since the 1700’s with Delaware being the first state to inact such. At first it was 7 and then switched to 8. Oddly enough that happens to be the age the Latter Day Saint tradition holds as the age of accountability. So I think 8 is a fair level for age of consent. Warren Jeffs’ youngest wife was 12 I believe. She defended his actions.

  22. JD

    Last point about sex, age, and accountability. If you don’t want kids having sex, in any way, then just make pre-marital sex illegal. That would be a waste of time and resources and I don’t think it would hold up in court but it could be done. I recommend this route because it would not be discriminatory. It would apply to everyone equally so long as everyone is able to get married.

  23. Cody J. Quirk

    JD, I ALREADY HAVE! And yet you automatically dismiss the FAIRLDS links, despite the validity of the arguments and the numerous non-LDS sources they cite.
    Obviously you can’t counter-refute such rebuttals, basically.

    As for the “age of consent”, I think the current laws are fair, and best left to the states.
    I know that in my state it is 16, and yet we do not have serious problems with sex offenders or molestation. I understand the age of consent was a lot different back then (much lower), but society changes.

    As for post #25, some states already had such laws, even though most of them have been repealed, and obviously with the way things are now, such laws would be tough to intact, and it would have a reverse effect (kids doing it on a more widespread scale), IMO- unless it was left up to the states, and the punishment was a simple fine.

    Which brings me to Prohibition- it would’ve worked if it was simply left up to the states to decide on- the south and some western states had no problems enforcing prohibition laws, yet the northern states and places like New York & Chicago was a complete disaster for the prohibition cause, and lead to the rise of the mob and organized crime.

  24. JD

    There is no sense in me even acknowledging your sources. It is akin to a court letting a murder suspect off the hook just because he said he didn’t do it. Plus you haven’t read the books I cited and probably never will so it is really a mute point.

    I think the general consensus is that prohibition has not worked and won’t work in a liberty based society. It could work and has worked in authoritarian systems. Which prompts me to ask which society the CP and the other “constitutionalist” parties actually want? If they want a liberty based society with equality as the basis of the law then great. If they want a society where the the SS Grundmann Sturm Battalion is kicking in doors and arresting anyone in the act of sodomy then that is fine but they should say so.

    I think the CP would be much better off if they were in favor of more blanket prohibitions such as the ban on pre-marital sex. It is when you target specific groups that it gets iffy.

  25. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    JD – Even when sodomy was illegal there were no ” stormtroopers kicking in doors.”

    To reestablish laws against/criminalizing sodomy would, just like laws against abortion, not stop its occurance but it would stop the implied minimal societal consent of its occurance; i.e.; it would A) be recognized as something that sick people do, and B) make teaching it to children, via the public schools for one example, in order to destroy them far more difficult.

    It would be just as laws against abortion would imply that the practice is indeed evil as compared to what is claimed by the Religion of Pro-Choice that abortion is no different from brushing your teeth.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. recognizing that the greatest freedom that a child can gain, and the #1 target of destruction by their enemies, is their sense of Christian morality

  26. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    Mr. Kane – Christ was the connection for man to be saved from his disconnection from God via sin.

    Libertarian was the LAST thing that Christ was since the Libertarian Party, and the philosophy in general, not only has absolutely no care about the concept of sin but in fact encourages it in every possible way with its promotion of homosexual marriage being just one example among many.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. watching virtually every political party, including the Libertarians, spit on the concept of sin and of God Himself ( since they believe that they are god )

  27. JD

    I won’t say that abortion isn’t evil. I think killing any living thing is evil. I still eat hamburger though. Abortion should be phased out because it is a barbaric and antiquated practice that is no longer necessary.

    There is always the rape and incest argument but the morning after pill takes care of that. Then there is the health question. If both would die then maybe. If one will live what woman, that is worth being called a woman, would take her offspring’s life to save her own? My wife has put it into writing that she would rather die than abort the fetus.

    Of course again it is a matter of morality versus legality. Legally you can get rid of most abortions which is an admirable goal. You simply can’t get rid of them all though.

    One question though, where did Christ say that the state should regulate marriage? He did lay out the gospel definition of marriage but in what passage of scripture are we given explicit orders that the state should regulate marriage? Frankly, I would rather Christ be the administrator than the state. So I say wait for the final judgment.

    We also have the question of which Christianity is used as the determining factor. There are 20 nationally operating churches in these United States that marry and ordain homosexuals. Six of those are considered prominent mainline churches.

  28. JD

    I don’t know if I would describe Christ as an anarcho-capitalist or an anarchist at all. In general I would say He was non-political. I will agree that He was definitely not a statist and He clearly had no interest in setting up an Earthly kingdom at that time.

    Per Dr. Jason Hunt, and agreeable to my own feelings, it can be argued one of the reasons why the Jews rejected Christ was because He was not interested in throwing the Romans out of Israel and Judea. It can also be argued that Christ spoke in parables because He meant His teachings to be used only in a religious context. The parables would only be easily understood by righteous religiously minded people.

  29. Thomas L. Knapp

    Jesus openly confronted the Romans as a claimant to the throne — that’s what the whole “riding into town on an ass” thing was all about.

    He was executed by the Romans, not the Jews, and he was executed in the manner reserved exclusively for rebels against Roman rule.

  30. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    JD – There is no such thing as a TRUE Christian church that will approve of homosexuality in any way, shape, or form.

    There are however numerous FAKE Christian churches just as there are oodles of fake Christians, inclusive of a prominent self-proclaimed ” Christian ” on this site.

    They can be identified by many different features but the prominent one for our current time is their proclamation that those afflicted by homosexuality are ” born that way;” i.e.; created as homosexual by The Creator.

    Any church or person who propagates and/or agrees with such vile evil is certainly religious but are members of the Church of Satan and most definitely not Christian in any way or form.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. watching the death of the Christian church via its infection by ” the undead;” fake churches and fake Christians

  31. JD

    Thomas, Jesus was executed by the Romans, yes. He was rejected by the Jews though. There was the whole Barabbas issue where the crowd chose a notorious criminal over Jesus. Let’s also not forget that it was a Jewish court that first tried Him and found Him guilty.

    As for His return to Jerusalem Christ never said He was establishing a visible Earthly kingdom. That is one reason the citizenry turned on Him. When it became obvious that He had no interest in leading an uprising they decided to throw Him under the bus. This of course all being to plan if you believe in the religious context.

    37, I am glad you have researched Christian Libertarianism. The thing about Christianity and politics is it is a religion open to interpretation mainly because the New Testament lays out a faith based on internal progress as opposed to the Old Testament which is a faith based on outward expressions and adherance to ritual. I believe it would be easier to base government off of Judaism or Islam as opposed to New Testament Christianity. You can honestly have a claim to Christian Libertarianism, Socialism, Syndicalism, Authoritarianism, or pretty much any other “ism”.

  32. JD

    Don, check the scriptures and take count of what appears most often. Adultery is mentioned 22 times in both the Old and New testament. Ther are four explicit condemnations from Christ Himself regarding non-marital sex. He condemns fornication and adultery. Christ never gave an outright condemnation of homosexuality. 1 Corinthians chapter six being the most explicit. Realize though these are the words of Paul not Christ.

    In all homosexuality appears in 11 places in the Old and New Testaments combined. Adultery appears in 22 places. It is obvious that Adultery was the bigger issue to the prophets, scribes, and Christ Himself.

  33. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    JD – How often was murder mentioned in the New Testament or by Jesus? I don’t know but shall we choose to rank sin/corruption by the amount of times they are mentioned in scripture? If murder was mentioned only once or even not at all shall it take a back seat to all other corruption?

    What Christ did not have in His time but which we have today is a Social Engineering mass propaganda system ( run by the Scribes and Pharasees ( sp?) of our time ) which is dedicated to destroying the populace via feminizing the men into males; i.e.; inferior men; and this via ( among many additional ways ) promoting the emotional pathology of homosexuality. It is an attack which is specifically aimed at children.

    It is a world wide movement, what I refer to as the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement, which has massive and unlimited financing behind it in order to accomplish the objective of obliterating the Christian foundations of our culture, society, and nation inclusive of the nuclear family.

    It will accomplish this by a multifaceted attack inclusive of Social Engineering citizens to spout drivel about ” government sponsored discrimination ” among many other Pavlovian phrases which a normal and rational populace of previous times would never have dreamed of speaking, much less supporting in the slightest possible way.

    I am leading to the point that your argument has been manufactured in the Social Engineering factories of the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement.

    Its claim of ” its no big deal ” is then spread forth as a soul poison upon the land by the very people who have been, at least minimally, infected by the disease; i.e; you.

    I say this because in order to present the arguments which you have the soul poison has at least minimally infected you in some way. I have heard your above argument multiple times from the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement.

    God, whom I refer to as The Creator, made men – not femen; i.e.; feminized males, inferior men.

    Our nation, culture, society, and western civilization itself was built by men; Christian men at that.

    It was not, never could be, and never will be, build by sodomites – inferior men; i.e.; males who are suffering from an emotional and ( especially ) spiritual pathology which they desire to infect the rest of the populace with.

    It is an anti-Christian and anti-humanity pathology which is dedicated, as a neutron bomb of the soul, to leaving its soul dead targets wandering spectrally across the earth within the New World Order plantation being crafted by the Plantation Masters; i.e.; servants of The Enemy of God.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. watching the mass production of males/femen as our nation goes down the toilet

  34. Green Party

    Don, though your name has the same amount of letters as the word God, you as don the human, have a right to your opinion, you also have a right to hate and disdain others. What a wonderful country to live in that affords its citizens that right. But, others have a right to disagree and follow their own truth. Evil spelled backward is live. Don, live your life and others will live theirs. It’s their right.

  35. JD

    Again Don has shown he is incapable of discerning legality and morality. He is also incapable of discerning consensual from non-consensual activity. The church will govern morality and the government legality.

    I already conceded that homosexuality is outlawed by certain prophets in both the old and new testaments. It should also be noted that murder is condemned in both as well. Guess what, murderers are allowed in church. Almost every church has some kind of prison outreach. Why allow murderers to take communion and not homosexuals? Murderers have taken innocent life while homosexuals have at worst only hurt themselves and their partners morally.

    Now of course you are a little slow and you will try and say something about NAMBLA and pedophiles. This will again provide proof that you can’t put a coherent thought together. That is why I have tried to explain from the get go that moral decisions should be left to the churches while the government should concern itself only with protecting life, liberty, and property. We have thus completed a full lap around a circular conversation.

  36. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    JD – While the churches SHOULD deal with moral decisions and the government SHOULD limit itself to protecting life, liberty, and property the simple fact of the moment is that government is forcing its own anti-Christian morality and religion upon the populace and this in large part because the overall church has abandoned the moral arena except as a ” Potemkin Village ” front to cover for its vacumn.

    The simple confirmation of this collapse is, as I previously mentioned, the number of fake Christian churches which support homosexuality; i.e.; the moral death of men; in any way.

    As a friend of mine has stated the current condition of the Christian church in America is that it is primarily interested in ” nickles and noses.” It hence, as with so many singular persons, is far more concerned with its ” image; i.e.; that it ” look good;” than in truly standing up for any principle.

    The resultant moral vacumn which springs from this fear expresses itself directly via ideas like ” state sponsored discrimination,” an idea which uses the cover story of government protection of such concepts as ” legality,” ” civil rights,” etc. to simply replace one religion, Christianity, with its opposite, Humanism/Satanism.

    I realize that my ” coherent thoughts ” hit close to home and so the standard operating procedure is to fall back on ” incapable,” etc. to avoid the bitter truth. Multiplied out such is the current unfortunate state of the nation where a Socially Engineered populace, changed behind their very noses, dare not confront but rather protects and celebrates their successful invasion.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. bringing the bitter truth to those who bitterly oppose it

  37. JD

    Again I repeat it is a simple simple matter of legality versus morality. You have not shown one thing Don that shows that being homosexual makes one a child molester. Many pedophiles are homosexual and many are not. You also have not shown one thing that would indicate that the impulse or act of being homosexual is harmful to anyone in any way other than morally.

    As for churches in their current state I have acknowledged the modern church has problems. The biggest issue facing national churches as a whole though is that our society is too dependent upon entertainment. Most people are leaving the traditional churches and going to the anonymous, arena rock inspired, mega-churches. I affectionately call them Jesus’ Magical Rock n’ Roll Mystery Tour. I’d rather a run down dump filled with murderers and gays that believed than all the glistening arena cathedrals with all the laser light shows in the world.

    There are two possibilities in all this. One, you really are slow. I am saying that as nicely as possible. It is possible you were abused or neglected as a child and it retarded your social development to a point where you can’t understand that only you and a few other mental infants believe in this vast homosexual conspiracy. The second is that you are a plant. You are in fact a real left wing extremist and are using the “defender of children” character as a type of performance art while attempting to discredit conservatism and christianity in all its forms.

    Yielding to parliamentary procedure I make a motion that we forgo further discussion until Don can show where the Bible shows us that the state should administer marriage rights. Should we get one or two people to second the motion?

  38. Bill Y

    JD @ 47: I second the motion for grundman to stop talking about gay marriage. Frankly, I’d prefer that he stop talking at all about his favorte topic. I’m tired of reading the same thing multiple times. He gives Christians a bad name.

  39. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    JD – Relative to paragraph #1 of #47 above –

    A) 2% of the population is homosexual and 98% is heterosexual. The numerical numbers of child molestors are far greater in the 98% group than in the 2% group. In percentage of population the numbers are far greater, roughly 11 times, in the 2% group than in the 98% group.

    B) Only homosexual culture has organized child molestation groups that are reflective of its culture. As I have previously mentioned, I have filmed the national child molesting group known as NAMBLA marching in many so-called ” Pride Parades; i.e.; where the homosexual community shows what it is ” proud ” of.

    Singular homosexuals may not agree with or practice the perversions which are otherwise practiced by the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement but the direction and goals of the Movement are crystal clear – unless you don’t want to see them.

    The current 8-17 article at, ” Coercing Homosexual Consensus,” touches upon this subject indirectly as well as directly via a link which reports the advance of pedophilia in the European Union, and Germany in particular, via the work of the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement.

    These issues are also discussed at

    Bottom Line #1 – The underlying issue is the collapse of men; either directly via the emotional pathology of homosexuality or indirectly via becoming apologists for and defenders of the Movement and the pathology.

    Bottom Line #2 – You either see it or you don’t and if you don’t it is because you don’t want to; no matter how glaring, outrageous, or obvious it is.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. standing up for the preservation of real men and the exposure and shaming of the imposters

  40. From Der Sidelines

    JD @40, you forgot the incest references, just for more completeness. 🙂

    Otherwise, please don’t feed the Solo-Don Grundy troll… 🙄

  41. Thomas L. Knapp

    DJG @ 38,

    “There are however numerous FAKE Christian churches just as there are oodles of fake Christians, inclusive of a prominent self-proclaimed ‘Christian’ on this site.”

    Damn. I lost the pool bet on when you’d descend to referring to yourself in the third person.

  42. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    JD – Relative to paragraph #2 of #47 above –

    The modern church does indeed have problems as it is virtually dead but, afflicted by the worship of ego and ( yet again ) ” image,” it simply won’t admit it.

    Its collapse is reflected in many different ways which certainly includes the ” rock-show ” presentations which you allude to. I present that one additional factor is that, yet again via making ” image ” the thing of most importance, it caves into and grovels before the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement by ordaining homosexuals and other such crimes against The Creator. This is a variation of the common cultural phenomenon that we tell God what to do and not the reverse.

    An unfortunate, and unfortunately not isolated, example of such ” caving ” is that the Mormon Church has abandoned the battle to save traditional marriage. Their surrender is not publicly acknowledged by either they or the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement but nevertheless they have fallen in battle.

    I believe that they also fell to the need to protect their ” image ” as after the passage of Proposition 8 in California they were immediately hammered as ” h8ters,” etc. This was followed by ” sitting on their hands ” allowing pro-pervert marriage initiatives to succeed in several states. The end result is that they are no longer attacked by the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement; a tacit acknowledgement that the Movement is simply stepping over their dead body and moving on down the battlefield. No need to waste time on a defeated enemy.

    The unfortunate fact is that the Mormons are not the first to fall nor will they be the last. No area of our society, culture ( see here the Boy Scouts as the latest example ), or nation will be allowed to escape from bending their knees before their appointed ( by the Plantation Masters of the nation ) god of the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement.

    As I believe Voltaire said – You know who rules you by who you cannot criticize.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. watching the death of the Christian church in America via its choice of serving its ” image ” rather than The Creator.

    P.S. – The recent comments of Pope Francis were intended to send a message that the Catholic Church will also abandon the battlefield.

  43. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    JD – Relative to paragraph #3 of your #47 comment and also addressing Bill Y.

    The Social Engineering of our nation, and its fantastic success, in all phases is well illustrated by the commentaries in this thread regarding homosexuality.

    Any opposition to homosexuality, and most particularly of its organized advance via the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement, of the slightest degree earns the opposer ( myself in this instance ) attacks that they are ” slow,” ” retarded,” a ” mental infant,” and so forth and so on. This will occur no matter how much evidence I present nor how outrageous such evidence is; as in having a GLBTQ club at my elementary school for only one example.

    This falls perfectly in line with the Henry Makow article which I referenced above – opponents of the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement are ” h8ters,” ” retarded,” yada, yada, yada, while supporters of the H/S Movement are ” enlightened,” ” smart,” ” loving,” ” tolerant, ” and all of the other praises which will be bestowed upon them by their grateful Plantation Master controllers.

    Similarly Christianity itself will be redefined. No longer will evil be opposed but rather we will be told that Christians ” love ” those committing evil by not opposing they nor, especially, their actions. The concept of sin is banished and any teaching within the Bible against the Social Engineering program of the day; i.e.; the promotion of homosexuality ( especially to children ); is heresy against the REAL religion of both our time and our Plantation Master rulers – Humanism/Satanism.

    Result? ( courtesy of Bill Y. ) to oppose the pathological evil of homosexuality inclusive of its quite organized attack against children gives Christians a ” bad name;” i.e.; we ” look bad ” when we oppose evil.

    Far better, in the universe according to Bill Y., that they surrender to evil and bend their knees before their new god(s). Far more important it is to protect our ” image.”

    After all did not Satan promise both Christ and us – All this will I give to you if you will bow down and worship me.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. a man who will always say NO to the offer

  44. JD

    51, that was funny Thomas. Good job.

    We have had a second on the on the motion on the floor. Shall the motion carry?

  45. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    JD – Years ago I confronted a nurse regarding her support for abortion. Challenging her with the need for her to take Biology 1A, and its explanation of sperm + egg = new being of whatever species, simply to get her license and regarding her claim that the child was not alive she responded by sticking her fingers in her ears and saying ” I can’t hear you!!! I can’t hear you!!!

    Since you have decided to do the same relevant to our current discussion I will refrain from any further continuance of the point as I have illustrated the parameters of the topic in my above comments.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. watching the sad and Socially Engineered demise of the men to males in our nation

  46. JD

    As I said you have not shown any evidence that all homosexuals are part of this vast conspiracy. Nor, have you provided any biblical reference that shows that God or Christ intended the state to be the administrator of the holy ordinance of marriage. Thus, the only thing you have displayed, beyond your personal failings and handicaps, is that you adhere 100% to a non-scriptural, 100% un-constitutional, 100% man made social philosophy based on nothing but hatred, bigotry, and segregation.

    Now abortion is another issue and you will see that I supported it’s gradual demise. I don’t believe it will be possible to get rid of it but it is a noble goal.

  47. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    JD – I must respond to your last screed.

    Opposition to homosexuality is ” scriptural ” – except via those who support the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement inclusive of even rewriting the Bible; reference here to the ” Queen James Bible.”

    Hence opposition to homosexuality is not ” 100% man-made ” except via the Social Engineering claims of the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement itself. This is a totally ludicrous statement.

    Yet another ludicrous phrase – ” based on nothing but hatred, bigotry, and segregation ” – is right out of the Social Engineering/public relations/marketing factory of the H/S Movement itself. This same phrase will be used to justify the advance to the legalization of child molestation; an action which is already occurring.

    It is a phrase; actually a total lie; which no true Christian would use but that a Socially Engineered copy would use.

    To oppose sin and outright evil is not ” hatred ” in any sense but such is of course the standard Social Engineering phrase of our day which is used to shut up opposition to the H/S Movement juggernaut which you, as its apologist/defender, claim does not exist. Your screed is hence an immediate confirmation and example of what the Makow article reveals.

    To fall back on the state control of marriage in order to escape from the many pathologies which the H/S Movement is inflicting on our nation is just another variation of the ” fingers in the ears ” example which I presented. God and/or Christ may not have directly addressed that one particular question but they certainly addressed, and condemned, the pathology in numerous other expressions – all of which are ignored when you want to stick your fingers in your ears ( while bleating the Social Engineering tag line of ” hatred ” at the same time ).

    There is a Mount Everest of evidence for the ” conspiracy ” but it, yet again, falls under the category of things which bring your fingers into your ears to escape the reality of what you are supporting, defending, and promoting.

    Such is the state of the spiritual war for the soul of America. Such is the reason why we, as a nation, will, most likely, be destroyed via losing the battle to The Enemy of God.

    Even if we are fortunate enough to ” survive ” ( however that may manifest ) the tragedies and deaths from this war upon humanity will be horrific. Your small contribution to The Enemy of God and his war machine against The Creator and His creation will, although a source of pride for yourself, not go unaddressed.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. watching the shattering of the men, and the manufacturing of males, of the nation as it progresses each second of the day

  48. johnO

    Scientists just found y-chromosone comes from a man 135,000 years ago. All men come from this man. Must be Adam.?

  49. JD

    What Don doesn’t realize is that by getting him to speak it actually serves the purpose of the civil rights movement. It is just like when the head of the Republican National Commitee realized it was a bad idea to put his guys on tv. If we could just get Don on tv.

  50. JD

    In living color had a skit where they made fun of the Guardian Angel neighborhood watch guys. I think the character was called the “Angel of Justice”. We could just let Don call himself the “Defender of Children” as he likes to do.

  51. Thomas L. Knapp

    Grundmann might be entitled to have his opinions on what Christianity requires respectfully considered once he’s bothered to obey Genesis 2:24.

    Until then, he’s a textbook example of “Christianity is what I say, not what I do.”

  52. Green Party

    If less than 2% of the populace are gay, why be so upset. If it were truly a mass conspiracy, many more would be on board. This whole conversation has turned soap box for mr. Grundman. Guess we were bored. ;/

  53. From Der Sidelines


    “Scientists just found y-chromosome comes from a man 135,000 years ago. All men come from this man. Must be Adam?”

    No, it was Steve… 😛

  54. Cody Quirk

    “An unfortunate, and unfortunately not isolated, example of such ” caving ” is that the Mormon Church has abandoned the battle to save traditional marriage. Their surrender is not publicly acknowledged by either they or the Homosexual/Sodomy Movement but nevertheless they have fallen in battle.”

    No, they simply readjusted their strategy & approach, and their stance on gay marriage is still the same.

    “The unfortunate fact is that the Mormons are not the first to fall nor will they be the last.”

    In your opinion. Yet their persistent missionary work keeps bringing in converts while the other Christian denominations, including the SBC, are actually declining in membership.

  55. JD

    Like I said I think it is a good thing that Don is speaking so much. It helps the cause of liberty. With people like Don as the spokesperson the anti-gay movement will fail soon enough.

    Don is one of the worst people I have ever seen when it comes to what is called “proof-texting”. That is taking single lines and verses to try and prove universal points that one holds dear. Anyone can do it, we just shouldn’t.

  56. Cody Quirk

    Agreed; if people like Don were given serious media coverage, he alone would damage the cause to maintain traditional marriage & moral values in American society.

    And what’s really pathetic is that he is too delusional & egotistical to realize the damage he is doing to that cause on here… Unless he really is a plant.

  57. JD

    Honestly, I really believe he is just acting out a character. I live in southern Indiana and spent 10 years in rural Kentucky so I have seen several different varieties of homophobes and gay bashers. Don is different. It isn’t a polite almost caring type of traditionalism that was manifested by Chuck Baldwin. It also doesn’t reach the simple hate filled hysteria of the Westboro Baptist folks. Don is rude and hate filled but it manifest itself in a Colbert-esque fashion. There is also a hint of childishness in it.

    I really am fascinated by what he says and does. I normally tune out the Westboro people without even meaning to. That is what makes me lean 60/40 in favor of it being a character and not his true persona.

    As a side note, I don’t want people to think the entire tri-state area is discriminatory based on my comment about Indiana and Kentucky. There just are more than enough hate mongers around.

  58. paulie

    He ran for the U.S. Senate in 2012 as a write-in candidate and received 70 votes.

    At this point, I think he’s had more IPR articles than votes.

    “Regarding the Constitution Party of Wisconsin, we are a Bible-based political party. Our stands do come from the US Constitution and Declaration of Independence; but we put the Bible over and above both of our nation’s founding documents…”

    They flunk in basic comprehension of any of those, including the Bible. See the article Mike Kane linked above, and rather than just responding to the title, please actually read it.

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