Lawrence O’Donnell and Glenn Greenwald discuss the futility of the two party system on MSNBC

Greenwald posted the following on his blog:

I wanted to post what I found to be an interesting MSNBC segment I did on Wednesday with Lawrence O’Donnell regarding the way in which America’s two-party system suffocates political choice.  I spoke yesterday at Harvard’s Kennedy School and was asked whether I’ve ever been told by MSNBC or any other television program on which I’ve appeared not to speak about a certain issue.  I replied that the media’s narrowing of political debate doesn’t generally operate in such an explicit way (though sometimes it does); rather, by confining themselves only to those issues relating to the partisan conflicts between Democrats and Republicans, anything that exists outside of that sphere is simply ignored.  Any positions that enjoy bipartisan consensus — or issues that the two parties jointly ignore — are rarely examined in establishment media venues.  Because O’Donnell somewhat unexpectedly (and commendably) directed the discussion to the fundamental deficiencies of the two-party system, this segment ended up being an exception to that rule (note that below the video, I discuss the OLC’s argument about Obama’s war powers):

Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy

65 thoughts on “Lawrence O’Donnell and Glenn Greenwald discuss the futility of the two party system on MSNBC

  1. Cody Quirk

    Only a man such as Don Lake would be stupid enough to incriminate himself here.

    I figured it was you making those vulgar accusations about Chelene.

  2. Robert Milnes

    I watch msnbc fairly regularly and did see this interview.
    O’Donnell is a consistent liberal/progressive democrat. There are quite a few. They must eventually get frustrated with the democratic party and the problems of third parties. He mentioned the parliamentary system. That would be helpful to third parties but does not seem to be imminent or even possible in the USA..

  3. Timothy Yung

    Okay we are not going to get a parliamentary system unless we amend the constitution. A more practical solution would be to allow fusion voting and alternative rank preference voting. @4 If no other Democrat candidate challenges him then go for it but you should be encouraging people like Ross Feingold, Bernie Sanders, Cindy Sheehan, and Ralph Nader to do it. @1 could you guys ban Don Lake he has no added a single insightful comment to IPR ever in his life. If he is changing his IP number then ban his e-mail.

  4. Robert Milnes

    No, it doesn’t matter to me whether anyone else challenges for the nomination. I’m not waiting for what anyone else does. I’m waiting for enough support to get going.
    So I reiterate. If you want me to run, I need some support. Don’t let paulie dictate whether you support my candidacy or not.
    Most of you should know me pretty well by now. But I’m only one person.

  5. Robert Milnes

    I wasn’t born with a silver spoon in my mouth. Teddy Roosevelt or into a large fabulously rich and famous family with a history of political activism. Teddy Kennedy. I don’t have Donald Trump’s chump change $600 million stake. I don’t have counterrevolutionary Ron Paul’s $35 million or Obama’s $1 billion expected sum.
    But I do have a winning strategy, despite what paulie says. & a lot of good ideas.

  6. Thomas L. Knapp

    Bob @ 7,

    I gave you a plan for raising your first $250k.

    Are you going to use it?

    Have you started preparing for your first major campaign trip yet?

    Are you in or out?

    Are you serious or not?

  7. Robert Milnes

    …a lot of good ideas, despite what paulie says.
    Progressivism is the ideal solution to the third party/independent dilemma.
    Upon forming a coalition or alliance that can actually win elections by close plurality, various policies can actually be implemented. As long as the coalition or alliance holds, it can be indefinitely be re-elected thereby holding on to power. It would not be necessary to outlaw all other parties like the communists or nickel & dime competitive parties like the democrats and republicans do. It is a non-violent alternative relying on elections. It tweaks capitalism instead of getting into the whole socialism>communism quagmire.
    It is what Teddy Roosevelt would do-or would have done.

  8. Robert Milnes

    Tom, you gave me a lot to think about.
    I said I will a little tink-and I am.
    What you proposed would be very difficult for me. Pack a few things excluding my laptop & walk to CA like a hobo like paulie? & he even takes a bus. I just signed a year lease. My legs are swollen, my dad needs me to mooch off him & what do I do with my cat? etc.
    I admit the walk across America has its publicity & public relations possibilities, but it is a mismatch for me. Let me think about it. You say it like it is a panacea.
    Everybody, do you think I should try Tom’s plan?

  9. Don Grundmann

    Lake – Since you posted Chelenes response you forgot what she was writing in response to –

    James – I write this note for multiple reasons inclusive of the following –

    My apologies for having done little to aid your efforts. I have an avalanche of tasks to do and as I sit writing this note I have 41,669 e-mails in this account, and not counting other accounts, to deal with. My ability to aid your effort is hence greatly hampered by extreme time constraints relative to many issues inclusive of being a Doctor of Chiropractic and treating my patients. I do admire your efforts to form coalitions and such from disparate political perspectives and, believe it or not, I consider myself to be quite accomodating to other political perspectives and to work with a broad coalition of people to confront the virtually countless challenges which our nation and citizens face. I hope the best for your efforts but, quite frankly, I do not expect them to succeed and this because of my main reason for writing this note which is the subject line in your latest e-mail : Subject: Veterans Affairs Minister Don Lake [American Independent] Elected

    Bluntly stated, Don Lake is a monstrous excuse for a human being. He is a outrageous liar, a total psychotic, and a coward of undescribable depth.

    In the recent gubinatorial campaign Don Lake posted literally hundereds of outright and totally fantastic and outrageous lies against Chelene Nightingale. I personally challenged his endless lies on virtually countless occasions and his response was NEVER to retract a single lie but rather to continue and amplify such lies.

    Examples – Lake accused Chelene of – being convicted of fraud, being convicted of a crime, not knowing how many children she had, demanding payment ( money ) before anyone would talk to her, being a failed business person, being a failed actress, and on and on and on. And these were his NICE lies. I say this because his friends in the American Independent Party, those who appointed him to the party and who are actually agents of the Anti-Defamation League ( ADL ) and the Southern Poverty Law Center ( SPLC ) who have attacked the party in order to destroy it, posted a continuous stream of attacks against Chelene which accused her of having sex with pigs and dogs and also of being a pornographic actress. These monsters are the people who appointed Lake to the AIP because they loved the lies which Lake continuously told about Chelene on any forum possible. These monsters continually attacked her throughout the state with outright lies which Lake either directly made himself or picked up from them and repeated. You have no idea of the depth and breath of the fantastic lies which these monsters, inclusive of Lake, spread against Chelene. AND THEY CONTINUE TO DO IT TO THIS DAY!!!!!

    The ONLY interest which Lake has in Veterans is to cloke himself as their defender as a cover for his seeking of revenge against Veterans home(s) which tossed him out of their home because of his psychotic behavior. There are many instances which I could document that Lake has, for political reasons, attacked Veterans organizations because his primary aim is political and especially personal and NOT in support of Veterans. He is in this issue, as in countless others, an outright liar and fraud.

    Lake was appointed to the AIP because he is in fact totally opposed to anything which the AIP has ever stood for; just like his appointers – Mark Robinson and Mark Seidenberg; ADL and SPLC agents – are.

    Additionally although he has never met me nor been to my office he has repeatedly written to multiple governmental agents to have my license pulled and to encourage these agencies to attack me. Why? Because I confronted him regarding his endorsement of homosexual community attacks against children in public schools.

    Bottom line – Don Lake is an utterly disgusting, revolting, and totally corrupt liar, coward, and psychotic. He is the absolute opposite of anything which the AIP has ever stood for and his pretension to represent veterans in any way is a total sick joke and lie.

    Hence I must withdraw from any participation in your organization as I will not be associated in any degree with a sub-human monster such as Don Lake. I have not spoken to Chelene in a number of weeks but I will urge her to also withdraw from any involvement with your organization. Just as I will not compromise and be associated with an inhuman creature/slug like Don Lake I will urge her to be totally separate from any organization which has such an outright liar as Don Lake within it and especially since Lake personally, and continuing to this day, attacked her for months on end with a continuous stream of monstrous and utterly fantastic lies. All that I have written here only brushes the surface. You have no idea of the truly monstrous and revolting attacks which Don Lake and his fellow ultra corrupt sub-humans have committed against Chelene!!!!!; attacks which I have on multiple occasions asked Lake to apologize for and which he has refused to do.

    I cannot emphasize it enough – THE ATTACKS AGAINST CHELENE WERE, AND ARE, TRULY OUTRAGEOUS AND MONSTROUS IN THE MOST EXTREME DEGREE!!!!!!

    I will also be asking all REAL AIP members, like Nathan Johnson, to disassociate themselves from any effort which includes monsters such as Lake, Seidenberg, and Robinson who are themselves sworn enemies of anything which the AIP has ever stood for. They are the keystones behind the sub-human attacks upon Chelene.

    I hope and wish the best for you in your endeavors but I will not be associated with an utterly evil and corrupt to the bone and beyond sub-human such as Don Lake. I frankly do not see how you can succeed when you associate yourself with utterly evil monsters like him.

    Please remove my name from your future e-mails.

    Best to you,

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party
    Chairman, Constitution Party of California

    P.S. – I have limited this e-mail to you, Chelene, and Lake. You can do what you want regarding having this monster in your midst. I don’t think that even liberals like Rosanne Barr, Gail Lightfoot, or others would appreciate being associated with a monster like Lake who has either directly made or joined in with the lies against Chelene which I mentioned above. I am hence trying to protect your efforts but as I partly mention above I see them as doomed to failure when you associate with a sub-human snake such as Don Lake. His utter, complete, and monstrous corruption, as with his friends Seidenberg and Robinson, cannot be fully expressed by or in words.

  10. Don Grundmann

    ” If I had to pick a Don , it would be Lake a million times over Grundman ”

    Response : LibertarianGirl – This just shows your true character. It is interesting that Lake and his friends can put out such monstrous lies about Chelene and you spring to his defense. Very telling of who you really are and your wonderful values system. A real defender of women.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  11. Don Grundmann

    It’s OK LG; you can ( I give you permission to ) ” come out of the closet.” You will defend sex with animals, and ( my prediction ) the virtues of teaching it to school children, before you will ever defend Chelene when she is accused of it. In fact in retrospect my ” P.S. ” of the above letter ( # 16 ) was wrong. Liberals ( like you ) will indeed have no qualms about associating with a monster like Lake. Chelene will get your knife in the back before you would ever consider a peep of protest about Lakes’ attack against her. But don’t worry your liberal values system about that for a second! Come out of the closet and be PROUD!! Stand up to ” religious bigotry “!!! Defend ” diversity “!!! Stand up to ” intolerance “!!! Stand up for ” multi-culturalism “!!!! Stand up against ” inter-species bigotry “!!!! Up with bestiality!!! You go girl!!!

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  12. Michael Cavlan RN

    LG and All

    When we get past the girly pillow fight between Don Drundmann and Don Lake.

    The fact that this kind of discussion on how the two party system is failing, makes it onto the “mainstream” (AKA corporate) media is a very, very good sign.

    Can we focus on that now please?

  13. Don Grundmann

    ” Lawrence O’Donnell regarding the way in which America’s two-party system suffocates political choice. ”

    Response – In regard to ” Can we focus on that now please? ” the crocodile tears of O’Donnell is simply a complaint that the Republicans ( at least the pro-life portion as compared to the ” moderates ” ) are not caving and groveling to the Democrats more. The english translation of his complaint that the 2 party system is failing is that the NWO anti-humanity agenda of his Plantation Master controllers is not being implimented fast enough and has too much opposition. For this reference his recent lament regarding the attempt to defund the ultra racist organization ( as documented at BLACKGENOCIDE.ORG ) known as Planned Parenthood. He is, if nothing else ( and the reason that he has his job ), an obedient lackey/shill of his Masters.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  14. Dennis

    @ 16
    You lost credibility when you mentioned “homosexual attacks” on children.

  15. Dennis

    Let me specify, before I am attacked, that I will not defend Don Lake if these accusations are true. That said, I despise homophobia, as I do all forms of ignorance.

  16. Michael Cavlan RN

    Oh and my apologies to all lovers of girly pillow fights, for planting the image of Don Grundmann into that idea.

    Grin

  17. Don Grundmann

    ” You lost credibility when you mentioned “homosexual attacks” on children.”

    Response : Dennis – You can go to MassResistance.org to discover the organization that formed in response to the homosexual attacks which I noted. And, by the way, there is no such thing as ” homophobia.” That is a Social Engineering/marketing term used by the Plantation Masters as part of their ( so far very successful ) work to destroy the morality of the nation.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  18. LibertarianGirl

    there is no proof on massresitance.org , thats the thing Grundy , theres no proof backing up your claim children are being taught fisting in public svhool , it doesnt bad the bull-shit test , not even remotely

  19. Don Grundmann

    LG – The ” proof ” that you, as a defender of the pathology, would require doesn’t indeed exist since the perverts would have to do it right in front of you AT THIS MOMENT for you to possibly even then consider the possible admission that it is true. Otherwise you will swear to heaven; ok, for you swear to hell; that it never happened despite the fact that hundreds of parents in Massachusetts organized to form Mass Resistance and to fight to defend their children from attack and continue to do so to this day many years later. To pathology lovers like you these hundreds of parents and families are, of course and incredibly, ” bigots.” Unless children are raped; i.e.; sodomized; right in front of them and the attacks videotaped the defenders of perversion will deny to the death that any such attacks happened no matter a Mount Everest of documentation to the contrary. This phenomenon happens EVERY TIME. The promoters and defenders of moral sickness will ALWAYS excuse and defend the revolting consequences of their beliefs. The reason for this is that they must ALWAYS ” look good;” i.e.; have their ego preened and polished so that they can imagine and portray themselves as ” good people;” no matter the death and countless tragedies which result from the promotion of their anti-Christian and anti-humanity religion. Their ( your ) ego is far more important than the death and destruction which springs forth as a natural consequence of the ( your ) promotion, acceptance, and endorsement of death pathologies like homosexuality. It is this same pathological phenomenon which leads Lawrence O’Donnell to cry his crocodile tears in defense of Planned Parenthood – the greatest, and most murderous, racist organization in the history of the world. Liberals will never admit that their anti-Christian beliefs lead to death, destruction, and tragedy of incalculable proportions. They are more than willing to sacrifice anyone and anything necessary to save their egos; i.e; ” look good;” the most important thing in their miserable existance.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  20. NewFederalist

    “Everybody, do you think I should try Tom’s plan?” (From #11 above)

    I must have missed the memo. What is Tom’s plan?

  21. Robert Milnes

    NF, there was no public memo-there was some emails to me. But I did touch on the particulars in @11. A walk across america type campaign. Stopping in Texas LP etc on the way. & Iowa dems & green stuff. Somehow rid myself of most of my baggage, like my laptop, rickety roof over my head etc. & be FREEEEE to wander around America showing I’m serious about campaigning & earning contributions. Instead of whining about the lack of support for me & tons of support for the likes of Obama, The Pauls, Trump et al.
    Winnebago & woman lib. vp land on my head? ok, bring it! Winning!
    Memo equivalent.

  22. NewFederalist

    Well hell, Bob… put a leash on your cat and take it with you! Sound like it could be fun. Kind of an Abe Lincoln and Lawton Chiles all rolled into one. Waay kewl!

  23. paulie

    Pack a few things excluding my laptop & walk to CA like a hobo like paulie?

    I usually ride in a car with friends.

  24. Dennis

    @ Don,

    While I don’t doubt your honest intentions, I feel that you are dreadfully misinformed.
    First off, there is no connection between homosexuality and pedophilia. Secondly, that website presents no evidence of anything. Third, homophobia does indeed exist, as proven by the scores of “protestors” who I have seen at local gay pride parades and events.

    There was a time when ignorant people claimed that blacks were morally and genetically inferior to whites, and thus, allowing blacks into white schools would somehow corrupt or disrupt whites’ ability to learn. There was a time when an ignorant few honestly believed this to be true.

    I pity you, Mr. Grundmann, because you are the heir to this legacy of ignorance. Thankfully, most Americans don’t share your worldview, and I remain optimistic that, twenty years down the line, history books will view you the same way they viewed Bull Connor, George Wallace, and the other segregationists…

    In other words, you views are quickly becoming obsolete, and try as you might, your narrow-minded worldview is fast becoming instinct.

    Cheers,
    -DENNIS

  25. Thomas L. Knapp

    The memo to Milnes, such as it was, was actually two memos.

    The first memo outlined a plan based on what I thought I knew of his personal situation, some of which was incorrect (e.g. he just signed a one-year lease, which negates some of the benefits).

    Here’s the overall scenario:

    Bob Milnes is essentially broke, lives in a leaky trailer in New Jersey, wants to run for president and/or pan for gold in California.

    He receives (that’s my impression, anyway) a monthly disability check from the government, regardless of where he’s living.

    His plans for getting to California all seem to involve locating a used Winnebago somewhere many miles away from him and talking someone (sometimes it’s me) into bringing it to him and helping him drive it to California.

    His plans for president all seem to involve a more-qualified-than-him female libertarian agreeing to run for VP as a “ticket” with him.

    So, I suggested that he shed burdens (leaky trailer) and expenses (rent, electricity, phone, Internet access), keep income (monthly government check, gear up (hiking boots, jeans, flannel shirts, sleeping bag) and start walking.

    From Jersey down through Delaware, Virginia, western North Carolina and/or eastern Tennessee, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and Nevada, landing in California after about 200 days at 20 miles per day.

    If he was willing to do that, I was willing to help (the whole reason for this memo is that I get a note every other week from him asking me to help him run for president), by:

    1) Setting up a “Milnes Across America” web site;

    2) Pitching him as a speaker at Libertarian Party and Green Party events that coincide with his itinerary or that can be set up in his path;

    3) Running general fundraisng AND a fundraiser for heavier hitters, based on mileage, with a goal of 50 cents per mile, payable every 100 miles, for a total of $2,500 for finishing the walk. 100 pledgers like that would raise $250k, in addition to random contributions and any cash he raised en route — and instead of spending his personal income on rent, etc., he’d be banking most of it that he wasn’t spending on pork and beans to eat next to the campfire each night.

    When he got to California, he could decide whether to stay there and pan for gold, or spend campaign money to buy that Winnebago and do a driving campaign tour back to New Jersey along a northerly route. If the latter, when he got back to New Jersey he could rent his same old lot, use the Winnebago as a campaign headquarters, trash it and have his campaign sell it to him for $100 when the campaign ended, leaving himself in the same position as before, only probably in better health and actually having done something in one year after waiting six years for everyone else to do it all for him.

    That’s the rough outline, anyway.

  26. whatever

    homophobia does indeed exist, as proven by the scores of “protestors” who I have seen at local gay pride parades

    If the protestors were phobic, they’d be inside with their shades drawn.

  27. Dennis

    So then, I assume that the people who attack a fellow like Matthew Shepard aren’t homophobes? They were motivated by…?

  28. David Colborne

    @38: “Homophobia” does not usually refer to an actual psychological phobia of homosexuals in the same vein as arachnophobia or agoraphobia. Instead, it’s shorthand for “I think this person thinks homosexuals are inferior, evil, or otherwise undesirable people who should alter their behaviors so that said person will be more comfortable in their presence.” Statements that might lead someone to view another person as “homophobic” include, but by are no means limited to…

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    “Logical” sophistry (“They have the same right to marry people of the opposite sex as anyone else!”): This relies upon the idea that consistency and logic are similar concepts when they are not. Again, when this argument is applied to racial minorities (“Black people have the same right to marry within their race as anyone else!”), it’s shot down by anybody with an ounce of sense and human decency.

    General hatred (“God hates fags!”): Kind of hard to mistake this for rational thought, frankly.

  29. NewFederalist

    Tom @ #37- Thanks for the Cliff’s Notes version of the proposed “Milnes for President” campaign. Like I said to Bob… put a leash on the cat and hit the road. As a leading “progressive” once said “Charge!” And as his cousin (also a fairly heavy hitter so far as progressives go) said “The only thing to fear is fear itself!”

  30. Don Lake, FYI, not necessarily a unilateral endorsement

    Dennis // Apr 12, 2011:
    “………. before I am attacked, that I will not defend Don Lake if these accusations are true. ”

    Fact: Ms Nightmare (my phrase) Nightingale was contacted early concerning endorsement(s) and such. It was blatantly made plain early [by myself and others] and often that there was little or no monies on the table. She then did not contact any of us.

    Fact: Look at the voluminous and early virulent criticism. Yes it comes from the critics, but look how many detractors there are!

    Fact: I am guilty guilty guilty of propagating the truth, as I ‘hear’ it second hand or recognized it first hand. Guilty, guilty, guilty.

    That is why I have been suspicious of the Duopoly Establishment since 1960 and an active, ardent combatant two decades later.

    *triumphant sports tunes* Politics is a rough and tumble game, and only adults should be allowed on the playing field ………… not on going childish whiners like Doctor G, Coty Banks, and the equally unethical Ms. Nightingale ……… they should be delegated to the jungle gyms and the teeter toters.

  31. Cody Quirk

    You don’t even know who Bugs Bunny is, Don.

    -You’re so stupid, you wouldn’t even know how to lie… Let alone spell.

  32. Thomas L. Knapp

    1) Well, the Nightingale letter certainly fulfilled Lake’s purpose, at least in LBJ style (“I know he didn’t do that … but let’s make him DENY it!”).

    2) As a public figure, she has about as much chance of getting her way in court on this as I do of sprouting wings and flying to Peru.

    Given (1) and (2), if she has an IQ higher than that of the typical housefly, she’ll stop aiding the spread of those rumors by repeating them, and she won’t waste her money on frivolous litigation.

  33. Don Grundmann

    ” First off, there is no connection between homosexuality and pedophilia ”

    Response : Dennis – This is a total lie. My first experience of investigating homosexuality occurred many years ago when I was told that a group of child molestors was marching in the San Francisco ” Pride ” Parade. I didn’t believe it but I grabbed a video camera and set of to find if it was true or not. I subsequently filmed the homosexual child molestors group NAMBLA in the parade for about 5 years straight before I stopped tracking them.

    I already know what your response is because it is ALWAYS the same ( lie ) – NAMBLA has no connection to the homosexual community. A total and absolute lie. No other community has a child molestor organization marching in their ” Pride ” parades. Eskimos don’t. Italians don’t. Japanese don’t. Indians ( of any type ) don’t. Kenyans don’t. ONLY!!! the homosexual community has such group(s).

    And I already know your next screech – Since 98%+ of the population identifies themselves as heterosexual and 1-2% are homosexual there are numerically more child molestors in the 98%+ group. But as a percentage of group population there are far more child molestors in the 1-2% homosexual group.

    To this day NAMBLA not only exists, as can be shown by their website, but ( as when I discovered them ) have chapters in all major cities throughout the nation and even produce their own magazine ( monthly ) by molestors for molestors; a magazine that I first tracked down in a homosexual community bookstore in San Francisco. Articles included how to avoid detection by authorities; i.e.; how to molest a child and get away with it.

    So Dennis – stop lying. Now.

    I have the video proof that your statement is a lie and there are multiple Mount Everests of evidence and proof to refute your silly and totally untrue statement. The very word ” GAY ” is not only a marketing/Social Engineering term to sanitize and promote homosexuality and sodomy but is an fact an acronym standing for ‘G”oing “A”fter “Y”outh. The molestation of children is part of the ” blood and bone ” of the homosexual movement. The 2 have never been and can never be separated.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  34. Don Grundmann

    ” So then, I assume that the people who attack a fellow like Matthew Shepard aren’t homophobes? They were motivated by…?”

    Response – Jesse Dirkhising. One of only God knows how many children killed by homosexuals; in this case NAMBLA members/followers who gagged and sodomized him. He, like so many other victims of the homosexual movement, don’t/didn’t have a compliant and supportive media behind him that wanted/wants, in conjunction with and on orders from their Masters/Controllers, to promote his pathology and so his death is mentioned on page 10 or 20 of a paper by one paragraph while Matthew Shepard is splashed across the front page and lead stories of newscasts for days and weeks on end leading to years of crocodile tears promotion of homosexuals as victims while Jesse and all of his fellow targets are shunted off into the trash can. Does/will Jesse get his own play, like ” Laramie,” to on the surface memorialize his death and stop others like it in the future while actually working to Socially Engineer the acceptance and promotion of his sickness to children? No possible way as that would interfere with the Social Engineering program which promotes homosexuality in order to break down the morality of the nation and especially of the children/targets of the whole attack plan. To conquer the nation you must break down its morality and reduce the citizens to animals/lemmings/cyphers who will provide no resistance to their slavery; a slavery which begins with the breakdown of their morality. Unfortunately Matthew Shepard was exploited by those who will use his death to work toward the death of countless others via the moral breakdown and subsequent enslavement of the nation. It is a consciously formulated and executed attack upon our nation and humanity as a whole.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  35. Don Grundmann

    ” 1) Well, the Nightingale letter certainly fulfilled Lake’s purpose, at least in LBJ style (“I know he didn’t do that … but let’s make him DENY it!”).”

    Response – Chelenes letter, as noted in the text itself, was meant to be a private letter. Lake posted it because, as the psychotic that he is, he is actually proud of his lies and of being a liar. It was Lake who, as usual, works to spread and continue the lies. Yet another example of ( in addition to so many others ), and expression of, what the revolting pile of walking feces that he is. My description of him as ” sub-human ” is/was ” spot-on.”

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  36. Cody Quirk

    [Lake: who has called me a liar? Oh, you have! Lair! Don’t know how to lie! Liar! Don’t know how to lie!]

    = Again Lake, you only prove how much of an idiot you truly are, again, you’re still to stupid to even know that I simply saying that you’re too stupid to even know how to lie to people. And again, you misspelled ‘Liar’ the first time I see.

  37. Don Lake, FYI, not necessarily a unilateral endorsement

    Don Lake, FYI, not necessarily a unilateral endorsement // Apr 12, 2011 at 8:50 pm

    # 43 Cody ‘Bugs Bunny’ Quirk // Apr 12, 2011: “Don, -Youre so stupid, you wouldn’t even know how to lie……….”

    [Lake: who has called me a liar? Oh, you have! Liar! Don’t know how to lie! Liar! Don’t know how to lie!]

    …….. Oh a private letter has the force of law, even supreme law, on privacy? Oops, upon recipe of said correspondence it become MY PROPERTY, to do with as I please.

  38. Dennis

    Donn;

    I fear you are too far gone to be reasoned with. Just know that NAMBLA certainly doesn’t have chapters in most major cities, as by all accounts, the group no longer exists: it is currently run by three or four pedophiles who comprise the entirety of the group’s membership.

    I have never met a LGBT person who wants anything to do with NAMBLA, and in case you didn’t notice, pedophile advocacy groups no longer partake in pride parades because, essentially, gays caught on to what they were.

    And read this: http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

    And don’t accuse me of lying. I never accused you of lying, despite the fact everything you said has been inherently false. It is time to grow up, Mr. Grundmann, and leave the childish hatred of gays behind.

    Why not live like Christ did, and restrain from judging others?

    -DENNIS

  39. Don Grundmann

    Dennis – Starting from your most recent homosexual agenda talking point and heading backwards –

    A) The story of the Bible, of which Christ is the culmination, is the separation of man from God by sin and the reconciliation of man to God via Christ; inclusive of the sin of homosexuality which is sprecifically also referred to as an ” abomination ” in the Bible. Confronting evil, inclusive of homosexuality, is not ” judgement ” which is yet another Social Engineering tool/argument/scam of the homosexual community and, especially, their controllers to deflect and shut down criticism of their pathology and pathological agenda. Christ came to ” draw a sword.” You cannot have both the world of God and the world of His enemy as you are attempting to do. You cannot support homosexuality and then claim to be a follower of Christ. This is a classic example of lying. God does NOT ” accept us as we are.” God changes us from what we are to what He wants us to be. To confront, challenge, and defeat evil is a Christian duty be such evil the affliction of homosexuality or any other.

    B) If John the alcoholic is sitting at the bar his best friend, the one who truly cares about him, will tell him – ” John, this is not life. Real life is outside of this bar. Come with me to true living and life. Leave this death behind.” In contrast Johns’ ” friends ” ( like you ), who are in fact his enemies, will say – ” John, this guy is alcoholphobic. Don’t listen to him. Have another drink, It’s on the house.” So Dennis the fact is that I have no hatred of ” gays ” ( yet another Social Engineering argument from the playbook of the Plantation Masters/controllers of the nation ) but am in fact their true friend in total contrast to you ( their true, and your own, enemy ) who are more than willing to buy them another drink at the bar; i.e.; betray them.

    C) I will be generous and simply say that you are ” blowing smoke;” i.e; rambling off all of homosexual agenda selling points to defend their/your pathology. A lie which I can’t dismiss as mere smoke, because it is the most serious of all; is what I describe above.

    P.S. – Actually your ” hatred ” comment is an outright lie. It is the standard attack always used to deflect ANY criticism of perverts and perversion. The real and true ” hatred ” involved in the issue is actually that of the homosexual community, and their supporters, for God.

    D) With the battle for legalization of pervert marriage coming to its culmination the homosexual community will naturally shunt NAMBLA and other bad PR elements, like attacking the Boy Scouts, to the side in the interest of their core battle. If and when pervert marriage is legalized then the true nature of the homosexual movement will immerge inclusive of NAMBLA, attacking the Boy Scouts and virtually countless other pathologies. Additionally famous perverts, such as ” Ambassador ” James Hormel ( a scion of the meat family ) have refused to disavow NAMBLA. So NAMBLA is only out of sight currently due to the need for a good public relations plan/scam/lie in the promotion of pervert marriage. Their core values are the same as the homosexual/pervert community as a whole as illustrated by a pervert philosopher who stated that the homosexual community will NEVER be ” free ” until children are ” free;” i.e.; they can have sex at any age with anybody and at any time.

    E) NAMBLA still publishes its magazine by and for molestors; it can be found at its site. The rest of your paragraph regarding this is a classic example of ” blowing smoke ” and needs no further comment on its ludicrousness and falsity.

    F) In regard to your comments in #34 above yet another tactic of the pervert community is to hide behind the black community and claim that their pathology is ” genetic;” i.e.; that they are ” born that way.” This, in addition to being a fantastic insult to the black community, is a total lie. In fact while blacks cannot change their skin color ( except for Michael Jackson ) thousands of former homosexuals have recovered from their affliction and now live functional and fulfilling lives. Bottom line – there are NO ” former blacks ” while there are thousands of former homosexuals. Yet this will not stop the homosexual community from hiding behind the black community in their never ending attempts to legitimize and spread their pathology.

    G) In regard to this pathology homosexuality comes from the breakdown of the family unit. Its’ occurance is connected to spiritual DNA and NOT physical DNA. All those who are afflicted, and their supporters, need to do is to stop hating/resenting their parents; most specifically their father. With this accomplished, and it can ONLY be done through repentance to The Creator for the sin of hating and resenting such parents, those afflicted by the pathology may recover through the Grace of God.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  40. whatever

    @39 – “Homophobia” does not usually refer to an actual psychological phobia of homosexuals

    Then you should find a more accurate word or phrase to express your point.

    assumes that all members of a group who share only one thing in common (being attracted to reproductive organs that resemble their own) also share all other traits in common and thus can unify to advance their pernicious “agenda”,

    Several homosexuals have told me that “of course” they are left/Democrat, and that it “comes with the membership card.” Are they self-“phobic” or what?

    right to marry

    If there is no political “agenda” (scare quotes sic), what is this push for same-sex marriage you’re prattling on about?

    You’re all over the place. Work on your elementary logic.

  41. Don Grundmann

    ” Group depersonalization (“There’s a homosexual agenda!”): This assumes that all members of a group who share only one thing in common (being attracted to reproductive organs that resemble their own) also share all other traits in common and thus can unify to advance their pernicious “agenda”, whatever it might be. When this statement is applied to racial minorities, it’s shot down by anybody with an ounce of sense and human decency.”

    Response – A) Ever hear of a group called ” La Raza?” A racial minority group with an agenda that shows how silly, foolish, ridiculous, and just plain dumb your statement is. B) ” ALL ” members of the group don’t have to join, or even know about ” The Agenda.” Only the upper elites and, especially, their moneybags controllers need to know. The lower level lemmings can simply be moved like cattle/mice wherever and whenever needed by social engineering slogans and phrases that they, as self-trained seals, are conditioned to react to – like ” hatred,” ” bigotry,” yada, yada, yada which they dutifully parrot. The lower levels are only interested in expanding their right to sodomize whoever they want including children; i.e; be ” free ” to make such attacks as part of a new cultural norm. The upper elites and their controllers are more interested in the bigger picture of constructing that ” norm ” and in the process destroying culture and society as can be accomplished by their ultimate planned victory – the destruction of Christianity in all of its manifestations. It all boils down to the war between heaven and hell and the followers and soldiers of each side.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  42. Mobert Rilnes

    I’d say this was a pretty good post completely derailed in the discussion by the usual nutjobs (Milnes, Lake, aquatangwutever), the obsessive closeted troglodyte (Grundmann) and the people who while away the hours entertaining the above (everybody else).
    Anyone hankering why to know why the two major parties need to be taken apart is going to find a quick antidote here.

  43. Don Grundmann

    ” “Logical” sophistry (“They have the same right to marry people of the opposite sex as anyone else!”): This relies upon the idea that consistency and logic are similar concepts when they are not. Again, when this argument is applied to racial minorities (“Black people have the same right to marry within their race as anyone else!”), it’s shot down by anybody with an ounce of sense and human decency.”

    Response – There is no ” logic,” and there is in fact an “anti-logic ” not to mention a fantastic amount of ” sophistry,” in equating a genetic characteristic ( black skin color ) with an emotional pathological condition ( homosexuality ) that has nothing to do with physical DNA. The same old pathetic argument that smears the black community while attempting to use it as a shield/excuse for the pathological expressions of homosexuality. The black community has enough problems already without the pervert community both smearing and attacking it at the same time.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  44. Don Grundmann

    ” General hatred (“God hates fags!”): Kind of hard to mistake this for rational thought, frankly.”

    Response – Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination. Leviticus 18:22

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  45. Catholic Trotskyist

    And I’m back to join the party! The IPR Troll Party, that is. As I prepare for the celebration of the Passion of the Christ on Holy Week and his resurrection on Easter Sunday, I think of the travails of our President Barack Obama, and think of how surprised everyone will be after the election of 2012 when he brings forth the message of Catholic Trotskyism; which on this thread is closest to the message of Don Grundman except on immigration and some economic matters. Lawrence O’Donnell will be irrelevent then.

    The USA Parliament will also have an active role; President Obama and the pope are likely to finally endorse it in 2013. I just came across this classified information.

    Please pray for the pope and please pray for Barack Obama, amen.

  46. whatever

    @ Mobert – Don’t pin this on me, you drama queen. This thread was dead when Milnes vomited on #2. I didn’t chime in ’til the horse had already been killed 35 times.

    -whatever

  47. Robert Milnes

    @58 Anyone hankering why to know why the two major parties need to be taken apart is going to find a quick antidote here.
    What does this -the two major parties need to be taken apart-mean?

  48. Mobert Rilnes

    When real politics comes about, and the moon is in the seventh house, then the duopoly will evaporate like a Canadian girlfriend after summer camp.

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