Keyes warns that “U.S. will cease to exist”

Keyes made an appearance at a fundraiser recently where he warned that because of Obama’s policies the “U.S. will cease to exist”. In 2008 Keyes briefly ran a campaign for President, first seeking the Republican nomination, then attempting to get the Constitution Party nomination, and then finally running a the candidate of his own, new, party, America’s Independent Party.

Alan Keyes, a three-time presidential candidate, called President Obama a “radical communist” and a “usurper” and said with him in charge, America “is going to cease to exist” at a pro-life fundraiser Thursday.

“Obama is a radical communist and I think it is becoming clear. That is what I told people in Illinois and now everybody realizes it is coming true,” said Keyes who ran unsuccessfully against Obama for the Senate in 2004. “He is going to destroy this country and we are either going to stop him or the United States of America is going to cease to exist,” said Keyes.

Read the rest here.

115 thoughts on “Keyes warns that “U.S. will cease to exist”

  1. Thane Eichenauer

    I’ll put in my comments and encourage some people to add some.
    “Radical communist” – as if being a communist isn’t bad enough?
    “usurper” – doesn’t the US constitutional republic allow for lawful usurping of the President every four years?

    Broadcasting fear is apparently a very effective method by which to gather attention but it sound far too much like defeatism to me.
    If Mr. Obama was born in Kenya, the response from 99.99% of US government officials so far appears to be . Nobody has proof where Mr. Obama was born beyond the pitiful little the Obama campaign has produced.

  2. Trent Hill Post author

    “U.S. cease to exist?

    SOUNDS GREAT!!!”

    Why? Sounds awful to me. It’s bound to be replaced by something tyrannical. Only 7-8 countries in the world are freer, GE.

  3. Anti-Catholic Christian

    I am not worried because if God wants the U.S. to fail there is no way it will not fail. If God wants the U.S. to have success then it will. Obama is not the greatest threat to the U.S. God is. Well actually Satan is but when we refuse to obey God he will remove his protection.

  4. Trent Hill Post author

    “The U.S. is the most evil country in the history of Earth. I’ll take my chances.”

    Please. North Korea, Cuba, China, etc are all far more evil. This is a classic case of GE’s hyperbole/delusionalism. How the US, one of the freest countries on earth, could even be compared to the USSR, Mao’s China, etc is beyond me.

  5. G.E.

    We’ve been through this before, Trent. But for others:

    The USSR didn’t last that long. Neither did Mao’s China. Nor the unmentioned Nazi Germany. They did not have the time or power to be as destructive as the U.S., which is not to say they did not have the inclination to be even worse.

    As for North Korea, Cuba, China: comparing these nations, today, to the U.S. of today is absurd. How many foreigners are these regimes killing on a monthly basis? How much terror do they inspire? How much do they interfere into daily lives of the world’s people?

    Your nationalism is revolting. The U.S. is the evil empire.

  6. Richard Winger

    The very fact that G.E. can say what he just said, and not be afraid that anyone will take him off to a concentration camp, is proof that he is wrong. Under Stalin, he would already be incarcerated or dead by now.

  7. jason

    “Radical communist”? Then why are we still at war? Why are the capitalists still allowed to keep all their millions while others starve? Where’s the public healthcare? Why, still, is only 3% of South Carolina’s workforce unionized?

    No, no my friends. Obama is not a communist. He is a centrist. Quit your pointless libertarian and neocon whining.

  8. paulie cannoli

    The very fact that G.E. can say what he just said, and not be afraid that anyone will take him off to a concentration camp, is proof that he is wrong. Under Stalin, he would already be incarcerated or dead by now.

    He is talking about the US Empire abroad.

  9. paulie cannoli

    Quit your pointless libertarian and neocon whining.

    I don’t think there are too many neocons here, and Keyes is not a libertarian.

    Why confuse two very different viewpoints?

  10. G.E.

    Winger – You’re a nationalist, too? Do only the lives of Americans count? What if a tiny country brutally repressed its own people — all 250 of them. Would that make them more evil than the United States, who doesn’t repress its own people “that bad” but murders, maims, and controls on a global scale.

    Paul – Obviously, I’m not talking about life in the U.S. and never said I was. The sick logic of Trent and Richard is the logic of the slave master who says to his son, “What do you have to complain about? There’s nothing wrong with slavery. How is it affecting you?”

    Yeah, WE get to reap the benefits of the U.S.’s campaign of global carnage. So long as people are “free” to make timid criticisms of the evil empire, Trent and Richard are happy.

  11. Richard Winger

    G.E. hasn’t said that yet, as far as I can see. But assuming that is what he means, look at what the Spanish Empire did to the indigenous peoples of the Americas…killed a majority of them, even though it was partly not on purpose, via disease.

    And look what the Australians did to the indigenous people of Tasmania…literally killed all of them, on purpose, so that there are no survivors. That group of people ceased totally to exist. The U.S. has never done anything remotely similar.

  12. G.E.

    The “U.S.” that was worth caring about died when the Constitution was ratified and Washington was installed as our first king. What few remnants remained were thoroughly crushed in the Civil War. Give it up, already.

  13. Steven R Linnabary

    Aren’t we talking about two different kinds of evil? On the one hand we have the evil of a top down evil of one (or a small cabal) as in North Korea, Cuba, China. On the other we have the evil of millions electing and cheering the actions of evil people such as Bush and Obama.

    Evil is still evil.

    PEACE

  14. Melty

    Of course the States was built on genocide too, Indian Removal policy.

    U. S. Empire is evil. The U. S. can’t live with it, but could live without it.

    The Constitution has its flaws but is well worth resuscitating.

  15. G.E.

    Melty – It would take so much to get back to the “original intent” of the Constitution.. Why not make the 0.1% extra effort and restore the Articles of Confederation instead?

  16. Trent Hill Post author

    “The USSR didn’t last that long. Neither did Mao’s China. Nor the unmentioned Nazi Germany. They did not have the time or power to be as destructive as the U.S., which is not to say they did not have the inclination to be even worse.”

    During the USSR’s short lifespan is killed in excess of 100 million people DIRECTLY. It was JUST AS expansionist (probably more so) and FAR more deadly for those living within its borders or facing its armies. Same for Mao, except his deathtoll is slightly smaller, he too invaded multiple countries–and his nation continues to occupy them today. Nazi Germany, too, is a paltry comparison. In excess of 10 million people died DIRECTLY under the Nazi Regime, and they invaded 7-8 countries in Hitler’s short role. As Winger said–the mere fact that GE can criticize this country is an example of how much better it is than the aforementioned.

  17. Trent Hill Post author

    Nevermind logic though, GE is too busy yelling in his echo chamber.

    To suggest that the World was better off when the Russians were globally hedgemonic is stupid. To suggest that the World was better off when England spanned the globe, is utterly ridiculous. To suggest that Nazi Germany was less harmful abroad than the United States–it pure lunacy. Sorry GE, your little theory is cute–but delusional. And to call me and Winger nationalists is absurd.

  18. Melty

    It’s not like one global hegemon must replace another (take Kyrgyzstan for a timely example). No entity can take the place of the U. S. Empire right now, yet it will soon fall asunder, probably in the twenty tens, and will be replaced by none soon thereafter.

  19. Don Grundmann

    The problem with the message of Alan Keyes is not the message but the messenger as Keyes is just as corrupt if not more so than Obama. Keyes talks a good message but his corruption and corrupt actions betray his true nature. He is a fake and it is this which takes away any validity of his message.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  20. Don Grundmann

    ” The USSR didn’t last that long. Neither did Mao’s China. Nor the unmentioned Nazi Germany. They did not have the time or power to be as destructive as the U.S., ”

    Response – USSR killed from 50 to 100 million, China/Mao killed from 50 to 80 million. Nazis killed 10 to 20 million. The only US equivalent was 1) via allowing abortion which has killed/murdered/mutilated 50 million +; and 2) allowing itself to be used to create the AIDS virus which has killed countless millions. Actions 1) and 2) were created, and continue to be coordinated to this day, by the religion of Social Darwinism/Humanism which has seized control of the American nation. Otherwise the US, even allowing for corruption of its original purposes, has been, via its Christian foundations, a beacon of light and freedom for humanity. The struggle to save the US is the struggle to restore its Christian foundations and to defeat the Social Darwinists/Humanists who have seized control of the nation and perverted it away from its original foundations into the performance of actions against all of humanity.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  21. Melty

    Getting back to original intent is good. Amendment XXI brought back freedom to guzzle booze and was getting back to original intent. Amentments XVI and XVII should be repealed too for some more original intent.
    But progress in the right direction is different and it’s a more feasible directive than getting back original intent. Amendment XIII was progress, but abolition of chattel slavery was probably not original intent. Amendments XV and XIX for all to vote are good too and not likely original intent. Restoration of the Articles of Confederation would be desirable in some ways, but how can we but work from where we are now?

  22. G.E.

    You skip over the most destructive amendment of all, XIV, which, of course, wasn’t even really ratified.

  23. Melty

    Christian foundations, Don? It would be more accurate to say “Deist foundations” but the pertinent thing here is the top line of the Bill of Rights :
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

  24. Steven R Linnabary

    “He has refused to provide proof that he is in fact a natural-born citizen,” Keyes said. “I’m not even sure he is president of the United States.”

    And:

    (The US) “allowing itself to be used to create the AIDS virus” from Don Grundman are both idiotic statements that make the AIP/CP look like tin foil hat wearing conspiracy kooks, never to have an impact on US politics.

    PEACE

  25. Steven R Linnabary

    Keyes WAS the AIP Presidential candidate in California.

    And even with the exception of his support for Bush/Obama wars, most people would say that he is a member simply because he WAS their candidate.

    My point in #29 was that voicing support for inane conspiracy theories DOES make one look like “tin foil hat wearing conspiracy kooks”.

    PEACE

  26. Don Grundmann

    ” (The US) “allowing itself to be used to create the AIDS virus” from Don Grundman are both idiotic statements that make the AIP/CP look like tin foil hat wearing conspiracy kooks, never to have an impact on US politics.”

    ” My point in #29 was that voicing support for inane conspiracy theories DOES make one look like “tin foil hat wearing conspiracy kooks”.”

    Response : Those who refuse to be educated and simply accept any dog bone that is thrown to them by The Matrix/media will, like Pavlovs dogs, simply regurgitate ” conspiracy kooks,” yada, yada, yada as a substitute for truly addressing the issue/debate/facts. If you can ever find the time to truly investigate how AIDS occured you may be able to develop some critical thinking ability. I will be more than happy to debate anyone in any forum and at any time regarding my charge that the AIDS virus is a man-made bioweapon; a charge which has abundant evidence to back it up. I will put up $100 ( I could do a lot more and really cash in ) as a cash bet to any challenger who accepts my debate challenge and is considered by a audience to the debate to have disproved my evidence; i.e.; won the debate. Such a victory will be impossible as I will mop the debate floor with any challenger. But it is your choice if you want to remain in ” The Matrix ” as one of Pavlovs dogs or if you truly want to learn. ” Inane ” is when you use that word to keep your head in the sand. The unfortunate fact is that conspiracy ” theories ” are in many cases, inclusive of the construction of the AIDS virus and its distribution to intentionally committ mass murder, facts. They are claimed to be ” theories ” by those who stand to gain by covering up the committed crimes or by those who are simply too intellectually lazy to get off their mind butt and investigate/learn.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  27. Trent Hill Post author

    “Such a victory will be impossible as I will mop the debate floor with any challenger. ”

    Worde of sincere arrogance, indeed. I have seen Mr. Grundmann debate, and was thoroughly unimpressed–I assure every reader here that the rest of the audience was just as unenthralled.

  28. Mike Theodore

    A system of governance can cease to exist, but the land and people will always be there. Also, those that call themselves leaders will still be around, and the people will be followed into whatever they are lead into.

    To follow up Trent’s concerns, I was actually taught all that by of all people, a self-proclaimed fascist. I fear not what the people will do without government, I fear that they will be talked into fascism.

  29. Anti-Catholic Christian

    Fascism and communism is both forms of state-worship. This is what happens when we let Satanists run this country. Yes Satanists G.W. Bush is a fake Christian. His father was a Free-Mason. Both of them took part in the Demonic Skull and Bones Club where they did strange pagan homo-erotic sexual rituals.

  30. Sarah

    Anti Catholic Christian, I hope you are well aware that Alan Keyes is Catholic- you anti Catholic bigot

  31. paulie cannoli

    Don G. and Trent,

    What are the terms of the proposed debate? Is there a time limit? Is the judging audience pre-determined, or do participants get to bring people in to vote for them?

  32. paulie cannoli

    USSR killed from 50 to 100 million, China/Mao killed from 50 to 80 million. Nazis killed 10 to 20 million.

    Estimates for USSR and China are on the high side (but on the low side if you count abortion, which is much more widespread in those countries).

    Both the USSR and Nazi Germany happened because the US intervened in WW1, which was otherwise headed towards a negotiated peace (Brest-Litovsk, and I believe one other treaty that was either concluded or about to be). The US shifted the stalemate and resulted in the British/French victory. The terms imposed on Germany led to the rise of nazism; the prolongation of the war in the East led to the Soviet takeover of Russia.

    Additionally, Americans helped finance the nazi and communists, especially during their rise to power.

    The US has propped up dictators all over the world. Sometimes these dictators slaughtered large numbers of their own population; other times, they caused the people to rebel against them and install even worse governments, like Pol Pot did in Cambodia after a large number of Cambodians had already been killed by American bombs.

    Sometimes, the US does the job itself, as in the Philippines at the turn of the last century and Vietnam several decades later. But most of the time, as in Guatemala, it subcontracts.

    Nor is all of the US regime terror abroad. Tens of thousands of Americans die in the drug war that the regime had crated every year within the US. Millions more are prisons of war, and many millions more are either on restricted release, or have lost years of their life and prospects for future employment, and many have lost their homes, limbs, sanity…

    Many millions are living under constant threat of police harassment as well as street violence that the police fail to protect them from, and if they arm themselves for protection, they too can be held as criminals.

    For all these folks, American freedom really isn’t free.

    It also isn’t free for those who have been used as pawns in the regime’s military adventures abroad, and can’t sleep at night – and in many cases, are suffering from symptoms of being poisoned with depleted uranium, agent orange, etc.

    In the past, the US killed an unknown number of American natives and African slaves. It is likely to have been in the millions, when death by starvation and disease is included. However, the numbers are not known.

    So, this government has been far from blameless.

    It’s certainly true, however, that it is far from being the only mass-murdering regime in the world today, much less in world history.

  33. AntonioSosa

    Alan Keyes is absolutely RIGHT. Those of us familiar with the horror and destruction created by Obama-like “socialists of the XXI century” (communists) know that Keyes is right. Just look at Cuba and Venezuela!

    We know that Obama’s CHANGE means change toward Marxism, loss of freedom and rights, and greater poverty, despair and corruption, and YES WE CAN means Marxists like Castro, Chavez and Obama CAN fool people. We pray that we are able to defend ourselves from Obama, his accomplices and his brainwashed lemmings.

    We must defend ourselves from Obama, not only for ourselves, our children and grandchildren, but for the millions of human beings all over the world who will be left without hope if the U.S. becomes enslaved like any other socialist/communist country.

  34. AntonioSosa

    paulie cannoli is either an accomplice or a brainwashed lemming spewing communist propaganda designed to help destroy the U.S.

    Most Latin Americans could not imagine that North Americans could be fooled as the poorest and most ignorant people in Venezuela, Bolivia and Ecuador had been fooled. Tito the Builder (from Colombia), for example, believed that “Americans were very smart” and would realize that Obama is a North American Chavez. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3NjmbkJBY8

    However, as we can see, Latin Americans who believed North Americans could be fooled were wrong. Due to a corrupt media and poor schools, many North Americans have been fooled as the most ignorant people in other countries, including Ecuador and Bolivia.

    It seems Soviet defector Yuri Bezmenov was right when he warned that, through media manipulation, Americans would be brainwashed and would allow their country to be taken over by Marxists: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/k6KUDv1wzraWhwlBt1

  35. AntonioSosa

    G.E.’s comments demonstrate Keyes is RIGHT. We must defend ourselves from Obama, his accomplices and his brainwashed lemmings (such as G.E.). As we can see, they seek to destroy us.

    G.E. also helps us see that Soviet defector Yuri Bezmenov was right when he warned that, through media manipulation, Americans would be brainwashed and would allow their country to be taken over by Marxists: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/k6KUDv1wzraWhwlBt1

  36. paulie cannoli

    paulie cannoli is either an accomplice or a brainwashed lemming spewing communist propaganda designed to help destroy the U.S.

    Name anything I said that was wrong, and why you disagree.

  37. Eddie H. Nessul

    ALAN KEYES “AMERICA’S INDEPENDENT PARTY” NATIONWIDE WILL CEASE TO EXIST FIRST!

    Here are the latest financials for Keyes AIP Nationwide. from the FEC. This is for the entire calendar year 2008, including the election and they only raised $5k !
    For December they only received $275 !

    Reserves total a paltry $388. This group is going NOWHERE! There is no way this group has any potential to be a nationwide party.

    PS- Alan Keyes 2008 Presidential committee only raised $1246 in the last month and SPENT $8034 ! It too is deeply in debt, and has NO cash reserves and payables owed of $1301. Keyes still owes on previous elections a WHOPPING $488k ! See FEC details below for both AIP and Keyes below. A truly bankrupt bunch.

    AMERICA’S INDEPENDENT PARTY NATIONAL COMMITTEE

    C00451096

    Total Receipts: $5,046
    Transfers From Authorized: $0
    Individual Contributions: $5,046
    Other Committee Contributions: $0
    Other Loans: $0
    Non-Federal Transfers: $0

    Total Disbursements: $4,657
    Transfers To Authorized: $0
    Contributions To Other Committees: $0
    Independent Expenditures: $0
    Coordinated Expenditures: $0
    Individual Refunds: $0
    Other Committee Refunds: $0
    Other Loan Repayments: $0
    Non-Federal Expenditures: $0

    Beginning Cash: $0
    Latest Cash On Hand: $388
    Debts Owed By: $0

    Through: 12/31/2008

    P60003076 KEYES, ALAN L President
    Presidential Candidate PRES Independent Challenger

    Total Receipts: $481,991
    Transfers From Authorized Committees: $0
    Individual Contributions: $418,807
    Non-Party (e.g. PACs) or Other Committees: $5,001
    Contributions from Party Committees $0
    Candidate Contribution: $446
    Candidate Loans: $0
    Other Loans: $0

    Total Disbursements: $491,012
    Transfers to Authorized Committees: $0
    Individual Refunds: $2,700
    Non-Party (e.g. PACs) or Other Refunds: $0
    Candidate Loan Repayments: $0
    Other Loan Repayments: $3,550

    Beginning Cash: $14,423
    Latest Cash On Hand: $5,397
    Debts Owed By: $488,018

    Committees Included:
    ALAN KEYES FOR PRESIDENT 2008 C00452532
    ALAN KEYES FOR PRESIDENT ’96 INC C00303214
    KEYES 2000 INC C00346163

    Through: 12/31/2008

  38. G.E.

    AntonioSosa – Wow, you’re a moron. I hate the state. Obama loves it. You are the Obamanite. I’m for freedom. You worship the government that Obama presides over. I hate it and him and you.

  39. Leymann Feldenstein

    “Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party”

    Mr. Grundmann has an understandable grudge since it was his group that was hijacked by supporters of Alan Keyes in the last election. Keyes was successful in getting on the ballot in California as the AIP candidate. Since the AIP is the Constitution Party affiliate in California, Keyes took the sport that normally would have gone to Chuck Baldwin. The matter was decided in court in favor of Keyes, and Baldwin was not on the ballot in California. It’s obvious Keyes took away alot of votes that would have gone to Baldwin which would have made the latter appear more competitive relative to other third party candidates.

  40. Leymann Feldenstein

    As a philosophical anarcho-communist I sincerely hope that Keyes is right and that Obama is successful in achieving nonviolent change to a collective society based on mutual respect and cooperation.

    And if Obama is not successful I’ll support the Milnes/Keaton ticket for change in 2012.

  41. derkel

    “The U.S. is the most evil country in the history of Earth. I’ll take my chances.”

    I’d say you know very little of history then. The British and French empires were far more brutal than anything we have ever done. I’d say Rome and the Greek empires were pretty brutal also.

    I have no problem with you making such a statement. You should probably learn a little history before you do though.

  42. Mike Theodore

    “And if Obama is not successful I’ll support the Milnes/Keaton ticket for change in 2012.”

    I haven’t seen this much grassroots support since the historic Milnes/Theodore sub-campaign!

    This site’s getting wacky, says I.

  43. Catholic Trotskyist

    Sorry I’m late, this is the best thread ever. I agree with Leymann that Obama will be successful in bringing about the collective change to a socialist Democratic, perhaps somewhat anarchic society. I will add that economic freedom will be completely trashed, but most social freedoms will increase (though abortion will be banned).

    Within the person of our Holy Revolutionary General, we have finally a president who is not on the path of Satan. Antonio, wake up; Hugo Chavez is one of the greatest leaders ever, he is bringing the teachings of Catholic Trotskyism to bare in the context of reality. Tito the Builder is a zionist plant paid for by Pat Robertson, just like Joe the Plumber. Why he is attacking Paulie I don’t know, obviously he can’t read. Anti-Catholic Christian will definitely have a hard time, witnessing the upcoming glorious conversion to Catholicism and the rule of our Holy Father Benedict XVI by our Revolutionary General Barack H. Obama, along with the conversion of Rick Warren and several other Protestant evangelist to the true church of Catholicos Romanum.
    Church and state, together but under one purpose. Get rid of the Constitution accept for the first, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, twelfth, thirteenth, fourteenth, fifteenth, sixteenth, seventeenth, nineteenth, twentieth, twenty-first, twenty-third, twenty-fourth, twenty-fifth, twenty-sixth and twenty-seventh amendments. The rest is garbage. Down with the American revolution and Alan Keyes and the genocidal government of the current US as GE so greatly puts it, up with the international Democratic Peace Socialist Republic of the Planet Earth, amen. And if this doesn’t work, I’ll support Milnes/Keaton too.

  44. Bryan

    After reading the comments, I almost forgot what the topic was…Keyes thinks the US will fail because we allow abortion, and that somehow Obama’s birth certificate has something to do with it.

    Keyes is NUTS! Will it not be a better country when more realize this simple fact…and stop supporting him in any way???

    All Keys’ statement really meant, was a sounding board for the pie in the sky, sweet utopia of anarchy…all I can say to that is BULLSHIT!

    Any half assed anarchist that would like to talk about the future as they see it…I would be extremely pleased to debate…otherwise accept it for what it is…anarchy would bring chaos…OR, well, debate me and find out…

  45. G.E.

    Yeah.. We’d definitely be better off with a draft. Just look at the antiwar movement in Vietnam versus today. The New Left then was antistate. We now have idiots getting the president tattooed on their bodies.

  46. Darryl W. Perry

    “anarchy would bring chaos”
    I beg to differ. Anarchy among unarmed individuals my breed chaos; but anarchy among ARMED individuals would be not much different than the “Wild West”, which was relatively calm compared to, say, South Central LA in the present.

  47. Robert Capozzi

    I’ve never been able to get anarchists to answer THIS one, but maybe YOU guys will:

    Paint us the anarcho picture of what would happen to all the nuclear weapons that States currently have? Do you honestly think they’ll just give them up and go home?

  48. Bryan

    Paulie…that is part of my point…

    Keyes is the asshole who was the primary subject of this topic…

    The anarchy shit just followed…largely due to GE…

    Keyes is a Nut case…I pretty much blew off what he said…

    But GE and others began the usual “oooo lets get rid of all government…it’s so perverted”

    I just wish that one anarchist could express their vision of what the world would look like…without the usual Utopian bullshit…

  49. SillyHatred

    “Paint us the anarcho picture of what would happen to all the nuclear weapons that States currently have? Do you honestly think they’ll just give them up and go home?”

    If “they” refers to the government, then they are only in power because people, as a whole, allow them to be. The anarchist idea is that “they” wouldn’t exist. Asking if they’d give up their weapons easily is like asking if they’d give up their power easily; it’s not likely to happen, but it should.

    As for the weapons, get rid of them (they only exist as instruments of force), or maybe a leftist anarchist would have some sort of workers’ organization look over them and control their use, making sure they’re used only in defense and extreme measures if at all. There’s nothing the government can do that people can’t.

    Just felt like answering that, however poorly I did. As for Keyes, a gay-bashing nationalist and deist/unitarian-hater who thinks the Founding Fathers were his form of religion, he’s not very bright and is best ignored.

    “usual Utopian bullshit”

    It’s just how the world should be: voluntaryist. It’s not how it is, that’s for sure.

  50. paulie cannoli

    Paint us the anarcho picture of what would happen to all the nuclear weapons that States currently have? Do you honestly think they’ll just give them up and go home?

    It depends on how we arrive at anarchy.

  51. derkel

    Once we reach anarchy who will ensure peple don’t form powerful groups that make others submit to their rule?

    People tend to forget that at one point we had anarchy in our history. Humans voluntarily joined groups and submitted to some type of rulers. Almost every group of people in history had submitted to some type of rule from another.

    The only people as delusional as Marxists and Communists are anarchists.

  52. Bryan

    Perry,

    I am armed…as are my relatives, friends, and most of my co-workers. We don’t live in the “wild west” any longer. Today many street gangs are just as well armed as the police who are trying to arrest them.

    If we were to devolve into anarchy, what’s to stop an entrepreneur from starting a “security company” to protect local residents from “hostile activities”? Then after “protecting” the people who hired them, they “offer” their services to others…also known as extortion. There would be no police to protect these people, and no courts to hand down justice.

    This scenario would continue, as larger groups subjugate smaller ones, as what had been counties take over others, and as these larger groups form “regional tribes”.

    One example of anarchy can be seen in Afghanistan. The “government” controls little beyond the capital, otherwise the warlords and tribal chiefs control everything. (As an aside, I feel we should get out of Afghanistan and let them figure their mess out themselves.)

    Only the strong survive…the rest can sit in the middle and suck on it.

    How exactly is this better than what we have today???

    I am a Libertarian, however by most of the definitions seen on this site…I am a “statist” or “nationalist”….

    I believe in the constitution.. one function of federal government is to protect Americans and our property. One function of state and local government, maybe the only one, is to protect people and their property…

    If we devolve into anarchy, and you rely only on your own resources, make peace with the God of your understanding, because humans are social animals, and the many, or the strong, will have no obstacles in forcing their will among the few, or the weak.

  53. paulie cannoli

    Once we reach anarchy who will ensure peple don’t form powerful groups that make others submit to their rule?

    You mean we might end up with government again? Perhaps, but i wouldn’t bet on it.

    These kinds of questions have been explored at considerable length. Check out the links I posted, and read away. It isn’t like you are the first person to ask such questions, or that anarchists haven’t considered them.

  54. paulie cannoli

    If we were to devolve into anarchy, what’s to stop an entrepreneur from starting a “security company” to protect local residents from “hostile activities”? Then after “protecting” the people who hired them, they “offer” their services to others…

    I don’t really want to waste my time explaining what has been explained by many other people, many other times. I’ll give this one answer, but I won’t keep doing this.

    Very simply: there is a natural incentive for order/peace so commerce can thrive. Thus, different protection agencies would form compacts, and punish any rogue agencies that acted against the interests of peace/order.

    However, the advantage would be that people would have a choice of protection providers, thus giving incentives to protection providers to keep costs from being excessive, provide quality service — or lose their business.

    Since there would be no non-contractual limited liability, they would also have incentives not to brutalize people, convict people without sufficient evidence, or carry out overly harsh punishments.

    You can find these types of answers by reading through the provided links.

    Again – none of these questions are new.

    Here’s another one; some books and papers you should read…

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/hoppe/hoppe5.html

  55. Bryan

    Paulie…

    The links you provided, and the explanation above, speak primarily of capital/trade anarchy. I fully believe that the government should get out of these areas of our lives. When it comes to commerce why should the government be a factor???

    When it comes to “protection”, the usual anarchist is a bit naive. Whether you support the war in Iraq or not, whether you support the “private contractors” or not…everyone would have to believe that Blackwater went a little overboard on occasion. What an anarchist believes is that there could be hundreds (if not thousands) of similar companies operating in America. Some of these will not be as well trained, or show the the same discretion that Blackwater has shown.

    Without some sort of government entity in place, what is to prevent these private armies from going beyond the Utopian ideals of anarchy???

  56. paulie cannoli

    The links you provided, and the explanation above, speak primarily of capital/trade anarchy.

    No, they address a lot more than that.

    What an anarchist believes is that there could be hundreds (if not thousands) of similar companies operating in America.

    That’s not what we believe at all. There is a lot of info at the provided links. No chance that you read it all, or any significant part of it, that quick. The questions you ask are addressed at considerable length by many of the essays linked from the links I already posted.

  57. G.E.

    Bryan – What would the world look like in absence of the monstrosity known as the state? Well, there would still be problems. But not as many. There’d be less poverty, more access to charitable services. There’d be greater wealth, due to the opening up of competition and flourishing of entrepreneurship. There would still be crime, but less of it, due to the greater wealth (and less poverty), greater opportunity, end of the drug war, etc., AND the fact that private insurers would have a greater incentive to find and convict criminals to recover on the premiums they paid out to the victims of the given crime. There’d still be corruption, but less. There would still be bad people, animal abusers, and every other thing you can imagine that we have now… but there would be fewer of them, for the obvious reasons, and most importantly, there would be no slimey government bureaucrats. They would be extinct. Is that utopia? If not, it’s good enough for me!

  58. G.E.

    But I’m not an absolutist. I’d be happy with the dissolution of the federal government as a start. Then I could choose which state to live in based on the state’s proximity to my values. People would thus choose their governments, which is the next best thing.

  59. Don Grundmann

    ” Worde of sincere arrogance, indeed. I have seen Mr. Grundmann debate, and was thoroughly unimpressed–I assure every reader here that the rest of the audience was just as unenthralled.”

    Response : Trent – While my debate skills may be unimpressive the amount of evidence in favor of the deliberate creation of AIDS as a bioweapon is extremely extensive. For anyone who truly wishes to find the truth, as compared to instantly claiming ” tinfoil hats ” are behind this idea, the information is so shocking it comes up against the real baseline reason of why the idea is instantly rejected without any thought or investigation – the possible existence of a mass murder plan so completely and utterly evil that we inherently reject it as being beyond the possibility of real human beings being able to commit such a crime. Hence because we can’t face the possibility, due to our brainwashing/training and our own beliefs, the criminals get away with the crime.

    Don Grundmann Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  60. paulie cannoli

    GE, Bryan;

    So, who introduced the whole discussion of anarchy, anyway? As far as I can remember, prior to Bryan bringing it up, the only discussion was over which historically existing governments have been worse.

  61. Steven R Linnabary

    One example of anarchy can be seen in Afghanistan.

    Huh???!!!

    I hate to burst your bubble, Bryan, but Afghanistan is a prime example of TOO MUCH government. From the two dozen governments of NATO, to their puppet government in Kabul, to the individual “warlords” and “tribal chiefs” (both of which are racist, derogatory terms), each acts as a de facto “government”.

    If you were to ask the individuals living there, you can bet that they would ask to be left alone. Without our imposing a condescending “government” on them…for their own good.

    PEACE

  62. derkel

    “You mean we might end up with government again? Perhaps, but i wouldn’t bet on it. ”

    Why wouldn’t you bet on it? I have thousands of years of history to show that humans naturally form groups of people who have similar interests. They will eventually submit to one type of group as a governing body.

    Again, there are thousands of years of history to support this theory. I find it hard to believe it would all change now.

    Steven,

    I don’t know how much you’ve read on Afghanistan, but outside a main city like Kabul it is pretty much anarchy. The tribal warlords run their local areas, and some inhabitants have never even been outside their own village. Let alone have any contact with a government.

  63. G.E.

    derkel – The warlords ARE “government” — i.e. territorial monopolies. The people are not under “anarchy” — the U.S. prevents that.

  64. Bryan

    Thanks derkel,

    A couple of other comments have asked who brought up anarchy…well…no one by that name, however, getting rid of the US as it is the most evil of the world governments kind of started me on that train of thought.

    Also, a few other comments, while not bringing up the seemingly taboo subject alluded to anarchy. It’s understandable why this is the “word” nobody wants to talk about…because it is a question that a believer will say has never been tried in the modern world, and a question that a non-believer will shoot down with a ton of facts…

    I equate the anarchist and the conspiracy theorists in the same category. Conspiracy theorists is one of the reasons I am now a Libertarian and not a Green.

  65. Steven R Linnabary

    Derkel-

    Seeing a couple dozen NATO governments tripping over their dicks around Kabul is NOT anarchy. Chaos, perhaps. But not anarchy. It is an example of too much government.

    And terms such as “tribal warlords” are racist, condescending and derogatory terms that some people use to refer to the way some brown people govern themselves.

    It is not my cup of tea, but it seems to have worked for them for centuries. Indeed, they were able to beat two world powers, the British AND the Soviets.

    And the condescending assertion that”some inhabitants have never even been outside their own village” is irrelevant. It is THEIR government, whether you wish to recognize them or not.

    PEACE

  66. derkel

    Steven,

    Thanks for pointing out that my accurate use of a term is racist. I had never thought of myself as such until you just let me in on that.

    The tribal warlords (excuse my racism) is their government. That is the point I’m making. There is no central government that exists in those areas, yet people still voluntarily form groups to submit to some type of governing body. That is why anarchy will never exist. Humans naturally form groups and some type of governing body.

    And my assertion that “some inhabitants have never even been outside their own village” is hardly condescending. It is 100% correct, and used to point out that there really is no central government outside of main cities like Kabul. I would suggest reading a few books on Afghanistan so some of your claims don’t sound so off the wall.

  67. Steven R Linnabary

    Conspiracy theorists is one of the reasons I am now a Libertarian and not a Green.

    Well, Bryan, I hardly know where to start. I am amused that the Greens take to conspiracy theories more than Libertarians!!

    🙂

    I have been to Libertarian conventions for nearly thirty years. Trust me that conspiracy theorists abound at Libertarian functions!!

    Don’t get me wrong, most of us don’t put much credence in them. But they can be fun to talk about, so long as you don’t take them seriously.

    Greens are more into conspiracy theories than Libertarians? Who’da thunk it?

    PEACE

  68. Bryan

    Steven…
    The term “tribal warlords” is just that, a term. If you wish we could refer to them as the PC version of “security force supervisors”. Either way they are just that forceful dictators of the area of the province, county, parish (insert pronoun) in the country of which they live. The American military…nor any other military…put them in charge…they were already incharge, and will be when we leave.

    Humans have a natural instinct to “stick together”, and this includes staying with those like you, those who share your wealth, those who share your ideas.

    You are correct on one point…it is THEIR government…let ’em have it…BRING OUR TROOPS HOME….and let them figure out their own MESS.

  69. G.E.

    So Bryan asks the question but refuses to engage the answers.

    What does anarchism have to do with “conspiracy theorists”? That’s absurd. It’s like saying, “I associate people named Bryan with child molestation.” Just a slur.

  70. derkel

    Bryan,

    I also find conspiracy theorists incredibly annoying simply because they refuse to believe the facts in front of them. eg. 9/11 Troofers

    However, they do play a vital role in questioning government claims. I believe it is very important to raise questions about the NAU/Bilderberg/CFR/Trilateral Commission that have a significant amount of evidence behind them.

    If anything, they are good to give you different perspectives. Not good to have them associated with your party though.

  71. paulie cannoli

    Why wouldn’t you bet on it? I have thousands of years of history to show that humans naturally form groups of people who have similar interests. They will eventually submit to one type of group as a governing body.

    Again, there are thousands of years of history to support this theory. I find it hard to believe it would all change now.

    Thus, at one point, you would have found it hard to believe that people would ever evolve beyond slavery or monarchy.

    Anarchy is just the next step in human evolution. By this I mean peaceful anarchy, not chaos.

  72. paulie cannoli

    A couple of other comments have asked who brought up anarchy…well…no one by that name, however, getting rid of the US as it is the most evil of the world governments kind of started me on that train of thought.

    Saying the US has been an evil regime does not necessarily mean one supports anarchy. Followers of many other regimes around the world have criticized the US regime, for example.

    Also, a few other comments, while not bringing up the seemingly taboo subject alluded to anarchy

    Which ones?

    It’s understandable why this is the “word” nobody wants to talk about

    On the contrary. I love to talk about it. I was just wondering why you brought it up out of the blue.

    because it is a question that a believer will say has never been tried in the modern world, and a question that a non-believer will shoot down with a ton of facts…

    Only if they don’t bother to read countervailing views.

    I equate the anarchist and the conspiracy theorists in the same category.

    Broadly using a term like “conspiracy theory” is illogical. Many conspiracies are historic fact, which no one now disputes. Criminal conspiracies are a fact of life. Governments keep secrets; people who are cleared to know such secrets and work on classified projects are by definition members of a conspiracy.

    Conspiracy theorists is one of the reasons I am now a Libertarian and not a Green.

    What would the ill-defined “conspiracy theorists” have to do with being either Libertarian or Green?

  73. paulie cannoli

    The tribal warlords (excuse my racism) is their government. That is the point I’m making. There is no central government that exists in those areas, yet people still voluntarily form groups to submit to some type of governing body.

    There’s nothing voluntary about it, and central governments do exist there – they just have smaller territories. What does this have to do with anarchy?


    That is why anarchy will never exist. Humans naturally form groups and some type of governing body.

    You may once equally have said that humans naturally enslave each other and have kings. This is not necessarily true.

  74. paulie cannoli

    I also find conspiracy theorists incredibly annoying simply because they refuse to believe the facts in front of them. eg. 9/11

    Good point. Why anyone would believe the absurd conspiracy theory in the 9/11 (c)omission report is beyond me.

  75. Leymann Feldenstein

    “Thus, at one point, you would have found it hard to believe that people would ever evolve beyond slavery or monarchy. Anarchy is just the next step in human evolution. By this I mean peaceful anarchy, not chaos.”

    Paulie is correct, which is why I don’t get very excited about peripheral issues like stimulus packages and smoking bans in restaurants which seem to get libertarian or paleocon activists all worked up. I believe in the dialectic theory that human progress is achieved through action, reaction and compromise. The end result, which may take centuries to achieve, will be the decline of nation states to be replaced by a global community with open borders, free flow of people, goods and services, and collective ownership of resources and production based on mutual respect and cooperation.

  76. derkel

    “Thus, at one point, you would have found it hard to believe that people would ever evolve beyond slavery or monarchy.

    Anarchy is just the next step in human evolution. By this I mean peaceful anarchy, not chaos.”

    Monarchy still very much exists in the world. Check the Middle East. Slavery also still very much exists. Just in a different way than before.

    Anarchy is not the next logical evolution in government. It is the removal of a governing body which has almost never existed in history. That is not like changing from monarchy to democracy.

    “Good point. Why anyone would believe the absurd conspiracy theory in the 9/11 (c)omission report is beyond me.”

    Never said you should believe everything. I only say it is beyond conclusive the incompetent actors within the government could not have carried out such an act.

    The “let it happen” argument has far more credibility and merit.

  77. derkel

    “There’s nothing voluntary about it, and central governments do exist there – they just have smaller territories. What does this have to do with anarchy?”

    It has everything to do with anarchy. There is no central government yet humans still voluntarily formed groups and submitted to a powerful actor or body. Which would come from any type of anarchic system.

    To believe no one powerful person would rise is beyond naive.

  78. Steven R Linnabary

    I also find conspiracy theorists incredibly annoying simply because they refuse to believe the facts in front of them. eg. 9/11 Troofers

    As well as the “He has refused to provide proof that he is in fact a natural-born citizen,” Keyes said. “I’m not even sure he is president of the United States.”

    And:

    (The US) “allowing itself to be used to create the AIDS virus” mentioned above.

    However, they do play a vital role in questioning government claims. I believe it is very important to raise questions about the NAU/Bilderberg/CFR/Trilateral Commission that have a significant amount of evidence behind them.

    The conspiracy claim that the CIA imports cocaine to make crack to enslave black Americans is another one. Never mind that at least as many white Americans have discovered crack cocaine.

    If anything, they are good to give you different perspectives.

    It can be fun to throw gasoline on their fire, just to see them getting hot.

    😉

    Not good to have them associated with your party though.

    At least keep them at arms length. And don’t give them a soapbox, or a position of authority within the party.

    And recognize that some of us are just having fun.

    PEACE

  79. Steven R Linnabary

    Slavery also still very much exists. Just in a different way than before.

    Wage slaves.

    Just happy to sing and dance down on the plantation whist massa’ takes care of all their needs and worries.

    😉

    PEACE
    steve

  80. Jim Davidson

    I agree with GE. The USA is a bad country, with an evil government. It is logically several dozen to several hundred countries being governed by a tyranny. Every single Indian nation within the borders of the USA has been occupied militarily and nearly all of them have at least one major treaty violation to report. In many instances, the states have attempted to secede, or actually seceded, or have current secession or independence movements, strongly suggesting that the country is not one unified whole by consent. Rather, it is a union by force.

    What GE says is correct about the USA as it is now. It wasn’t always so, and some courtesy and respect should be paid to the work of the American Revolutionaries who overthrew the British monarchy between 1765 and 1815. It wasn’t easy, and it took two wars to complete the work.

    I think some respect should be paid to some of the legacy of Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Sam Adams, John Hancock, and other revolutionaries. At the same time, considerable effort should be made to see through the myths and nonsense about George Washington, John Adams, and Alexander Hamilton.

    Many of the venerable leaders of the Revolution, and a very large number of the presidents were, at their best, a mixed bag of racism, sexism, war mongering, and bigotry with varying degrees of interest in property and freedom for some of their countrymen. Essentially none of the presidents with the possible exception of Thomas Jefferson have shown much enlightenment.

    The absence of a brutal dictatorship run by the military industrial financial pharmaceutical big auto big oil conglomerates for their financial interests and to the detriment of every other American would be a great blessing. The end of the USA would be a good thing. It would not mean that the people would all be dead, nor would it mean that they would have difficulty feeding themselves and each other. It would not mean the end of the world.

    It would, instead, mean the restoration of liberty and sovereignty to three hundred million and more individuals. The end of the USA would mean the arrival of hundreds of new nations, Indian nations regaining their aboriginal sovereignty, states restored to their 10th Amendment powers and privileges, and sovereign individuals striking out on their own.

    Richard Winger, you are mistaken. GE and others do have reason to fear being taken off to a concentration camp, or visited at night and summarily shot. I certainly fear these things, as do many other Americans who have been paying attention. Tell the children who were butchered by your government at the Branch Davidian church about how they have the freedom to worship in your country. Tell the men and women who have been spirited away by extreme rendition and tortured to death in distant prisons about due process of law. Tell the men held captive at Guantanamo about your commitment to habeas corpus in your despicable country.

    Your government hasn’t told you about all the men and women and children it has butchered in your name, and still you plead that because GE hasn’t yet been rousted from his bed and shot for treason on account of only having expressed his opinion, we must live in a free country.

    If that’s what you call a free country, then I spit on you and your slavish, dog-like infatuation with government.

  81. Jim Davidson

    Speaking of being spirited away by government, the RNC 8 just wrote me at Facebook to remind me that they have a new judge and new hearings.

    Perhaps you can explain to me about the infiltration of the RNC welcoming committee, the false testimony from at least one informant, and how people who are accused of terrorism were, in fact, only exercising their first amendment (protected?) freedom to assemble, to petition for redress of grievances, and to express their views.

    Richard Winger, you are wrong. Americans do have good reason to fear being accused in secret courts and testified against by secret informers. We have no habeas corpus. We have no due process. We can expect extraordinary rendition and torture. And you know these things. You know perfectly well what your government does to protestors, to dissidents, to activists.

    You ought to be ashamed.

  82. SillyHatred

    “Wage slaves”

    Whoah, a Libertarian believes that wage slavery exists? Very Spoonerist of you. Then again, Adam Smith himself mentioned it.

    “incompetent actors…”

    This is an obvious reference to Bush. If the conspiracy did happen, one would probably think of the CIA before Bush.

  83. paulie cannoli

    “Thus, at one point, you would have found it hard to believe that people would ever evolve beyond slavery or monarchy. Anarchy is just the next step in human evolution. By this I mean peaceful anarchy, not chaos.”

    Paulie is correct, which is why I don’t get very excited about peripheral issues like stimulus packages and smoking bans in restaurants which seem to get libertarian or paleocon activists all worked up.

    I do. Short-term issues are still real issues.


    I believe in the dialectic theory that human progress is achieved through action, reaction and compromise. The end result, which may take centuries to achieve, will be the decline of nation states to be replaced by a global community with open borders, free flow of people, goods and services, and collective ownership of resources and production based on mutual respect and cooperation.

    I don’t think it will take centuries, and I don’t think it will (or won’t) necessarily involve collective ownership.

  84. paulie cannoli

    Monarchy still very much exists in the world. Check the Middle East. Slavery also still very much exists. Just in a different way than before.

    Yes, but they are not universal in the same they had always been, everywhere in the world, for thousands of years.


    Anarchy is not the next logical evolution in government. It is the removal of a governing body which has almost never existed in history. That is not like changing from monarchy to democracy.

    It is not the removal of governing bodies. It is the end of a coercive territorial monopoly. And, yes, I do stand by my view – it is the next step in human evolution.

  85. paulie cannoli

    It has everything to do with anarchy. There is no central government yet humans still voluntarily formed groups and submitted to a powerful actor or body. Which would come from any type of anarchic system.

    It is not an anarchic system, thus does not illustrate your attempted point. I’m not sure what “central” government means here. Afghanistan has coercive territorial monopoly governments – they are just smaller in land area. This has nothing to do with anarchy. Europe also has some very small countries, like Liechtenstein, Andorra, Vatican City, Malta, etc. Again, nothing to do with anarchy.

  86. Rob

    The ever shrinking Alan Keyes! Goes from a million votes in the 2000 primaries to 60,000 in the 2008 primaries to 47,000 in the 2008 general-woohoo seventh place. Look we know that Keyes lives off his campaign donations which explains his lust for running for office. Maryland. Maryland again. Now off to the presidential race. And then off to it again. And now off to Illinois to be buried in the biggest landslide in the Prairie State’s history. Now he is off again to run as a Republican-no wait, he is going for the Constitution Party line, no he lost to Chuck Baldwin and now forms his own party. Pathetic.

  87. Gary Odom

    Filed Under: Constitution Party …

    Why is something about Keyes listed under the
    Constitution Party?

  88. Trent Hill Post author

    Because it specifically mentions that he attempted to get the Constitution Party nomination. It’s also filed under “Right wing minor parties”

  89. SillyHatred

    “I must be getting old. When I think of “incompetent actors” it’s always Ronald Reagan that comes to mind.”

    Ha! That’s fucking funny.

  90. Old Whig

    Personally, I think anarchism is pie-in-the-sky. It would be nice though to get a chance to see for ourselves how much government we can safely dispense with.
    Also, while I don’t believe in conspiracy theories, I know the CFR, Trilateral Commission and Bilderburgers stand for things I’m bitterly opposed to. That’s enough for me.

    O.W.

  91. paulie cannoli

    Personally, I think anarchism is pie-in-the-sky. It would be nice though to get a chance to see for ourselves how much government we can safely dispense with.

    Agreed on the second part, not the first. But I think the second is more important for now, anyway.

    I don’t believe in conspiracy theories

    I’m afraid that will limit your work possibilities. For instance, you couldn’t be a prosecutor for the government, since much of their work relies on conspiracy theories.

    But, you probably don’t want to have that job anyway.

  92. Hugh Jass

    Just so you know, G.E., you can concede that eviler governments than the U.S. have existed (Nazi Germany, USSR, Nationalist China, Communist China, etc.) and still says that the U.S. is one of the most evil governments. Also, it is ridiculous to argue that a country ruled by “warlords” and occupied by Westerners is an example of anarchy.

  93. paulie cannoli

    Also, it is ridiculous to argue that a country ruled by “warlords” and occupied by Westerners is an example of anarchy.

    Yes. I wonder how people would get such an idea? Perhaps because they have been taught that anarchy=chaos, so government-produced chaos is “anarchy” to them.

  94. Lola Flores

    Three-time looser?

    The US cease to exist? Yeah, but not because of Obama but because of the idiots that be before him, because of greed and because of the utter arrogance of eliticists who believe that was goes up will never come down!

    Rest in peace!

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