Carolyn Marbry: ‘Straight talk on “gay” marriage’

Posted by Carolyn Marbry at Liberty For All:

Back in 2008, many of us tried really hard to defeat California’s Proposition 8, which added a clause to the California state constitution defining marriage as being between one man and one woman. My partner and I stood on street corners with a lot of other activists waving “No on 8″ signs at passing cars, making a game of counting how often we were flipped off or called any of a number of colorful names by those who so vigorously supported “traditional family values.” Night after night, we put “No on 8″ lawn signs on street corners, knowing that by the time we got back around to where we’d put the first ones, they would already be destroyed or stolen, replaced with “Yes on 8″ signs. I spoke out passionately against it frequently that year in public debates and when asked during political panel discussions.

We very nearly won, too.

Every time the topic comes up again, as it has now that challenges to Prop 8 have reached the federal court in San Francisco, I find myself wondering what we could have done differently, what might have made the difference, other than simply having enough money to square off against the big interests backing Prop 8… The truth is, even if we’d matched them dollar for dollar, we were fighting something far more formidable than even the most ardent supporters of Prop 8. We were fighting the apathy of the majority.

Read the rest….

59 thoughts on “Carolyn Marbry: ‘Straight talk on “gay” marriage’

  1. Bruce Cohen

    Carolyn is right and I thank her for doing such ‘retail’ work as placing and waving signs.

    For America to ‘get it’ regarding gay marriage, we, the Libertarians, are going to have to sell the message it’s none of Government’s business, and not it’s place to be involved at all.

    For us to get there, the idea of ‘right sized’ government must likewise be sold, with a ‘cap’ folks can agree with on a) the kinds of things government is allowed to be involved with and b) the actual dollar size and scope government is allowed to be, by percentage.

    Otherwise, people won’t understand by defending another’s rights, you’re actually defending your own.

    First they came for the pot smokers.
    Then they came for the gays.
    Then they came for the rich.
    And the Middle Class.

    Eventually, they WILL come for you.

  2. AroundtheblockAFT

    “We” didn’t stop the draft until a critical mass was subjected to the draft (personally or through their sons, brothers, etc.). Gays will have to “enlist” their extended families in the fight to secure all their rights in order to reach that critical mass on the marriage issue. And spokesmen in the black community are going to have to make a civil rights issue out of this.

  3. Gene Berkman

    The vote in favor of Proposition 8 was much closer than the vote in 2000 in favor of Proposition 22, which had a similar ban on non-discriminatory marriage. Progress is being made, but it is not likely that anything could have actually changed the outcome in 2008.

    As people continue to change their minds on this, non-discriminatory marriage will become a reality. But right now it is too easy for opponents of discrimination to demonize people with whom they disagree, and I find this a troubling aspect of this debate.

    The court case against Prop. 8 has taken a troubling turn, with Prop. 8 opponents trying to force public disclosure of who funded Prop. 8. Had they won, few people would contribute to legalize marijuana iniatiatives or other controversial propositions, because of fear their name will be disclosed by opponents.

    I voted against and campaigned against Prop 8 but I think many people on the other side were motivated by commonly accepted cultural norms, rather than by hate. You can never change people’s minds if you don’t have some understanding of where they are at, and demonizing people prevents that understanding.

  4. Brian Holtz

    I agree with Carolyn. We should seek to humanize people for what we have in common with them.

    And I agree with Bruce. If you don’t defend the rights of people whose shoes you will never be in, then there won’t be anybody there to defend you when they come after the people in your shoes.

    P.S. I disagree with Carolyn’s judgment that it would cost married Californians a quarter trillion dollars if we could open marriage to gays and simultaneously rename it “domestic partnership” through the California Code. In a game of chicken between DOMA and millions of married California taxpayers, I wouldn’t want to be riding with DOMA. If, in a fit of political suicide, Obama’s IRS took federal tax advantages away from millions of California couples, federal rules would be rewritten to restore the status quo ante faster than you can say “90% tax on AIG bonuses”.

  5. Erik Geib

    Bruce @4,

    So let me get this straight… you refused to register for the draft… never served in any capacity… and yet you ‘re a hawk for the wars of intervention in the Middle East? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

  6. Don Grundmann

    Thankfully the people of California voted to protect their children from mass attack and indoctrination into the ” wonders ” of homosexuality, such as ” fisting ” as documented at massresitance.org, which is the real intention and ultimate end of the legalization of pervert marriage. This was amply demonstrated, despite the lying denials of the No on 8 gang, when an elementary school class was taken to the S.F. City Hall for indoctrination at a ” marriage ” ceremony. Parents will continue to defend their children against attack and their intended destruction by the homosexual community. Thankfully while the Democrat, Libertarian, Green, and even a large part of the Republican Party are willing to join the attack against the children of our state and nation the American Independent Party, the California branch of the Constitution Party, will stand in defense of our children both for now and especially the generations to come.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  7. Lidia Seebeck

    I find it most interesting that discussion on an actual subject of Liberty gets a handful of responses, whilst the scandal du jour gets so many that you can hardly move the scroll for sheer page length.
    Wake up! This is the sort of discussion that should be garnering the responses.

  8. Jill Pyeatt

    Ah Don, the Hateful Homophobe surfaces. You always talk about fisting, which I’ve never heard of until you brought it up. And you just keep bringing it up, Don, why? You must enjoy thinking about it.

    I went to art school and worked in the fashion industry, and I knew many, many gay people. I’ve never heard of fisting. You’re not gonna convince people on this thread that gays are conspiring to destroy families, so keep your hate to yourself. Go back under your rock.

    And don’t you dare start spouting Bible verses. There are more references to not judging and caring for others in the Bible than a few antiquated references to homosexuality. Few things make me as angry as people pretending to be Christians and spewing hate. So don’t.

  9. paulie Post author

    I find it most interesting that discussion on an actual subject of Liberty gets a handful of responses, whilst the scandal du jour gets so many that you can hardly move the scroll for sheer page length.

    If it bleeds, it leads. Unfortunately, no less true in our little niche market than it is in the “real world” of news.

  10. paulie Post author

    So let me get this straight… you refused to register for the draft… never served in any capacity… and yet you ‘re a hawk for the wars of intervention in the Middle East? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

    Bruce should of course be free to espouse any policy he wants, regardless of his personal experience or lack thereof in any given area – as should anyone. Likewise, I don’t have to be gay to support gay rights and marriage equality; I don’t even have to be married or interested in marriage.

    On the other hand, my own experience in Central America during the 1980s makes me that much more strongly anti-war. War is truly a horror, and while I can’t say it is never justified, I would certainly counsel a great deal of caution before choosing to go to war. Too many people only look at the benefits of proposed wars without fully considering the costs and risks.

  11. paulie Post author

    The vote in favor of Proposition 8 was much closer than the vote in 2000 in favor of Proposition 22, which had a similar ban on non-discriminatory marriage. Progress is being made, but it is not likely that anything could have actually changed the outcome in 2008.

    Actually, the presence of Obama on the ballot tilted the Prop H8 vote. It is likely that prop H8 would have lost without unusually high voter turnout from socially conservative African-Americans.

  12. LibertarianGirl

    I am a Mormon ( of the Jack variety , lol) and I was very ashamed at the lead role they played in defeating the Gay Marriage proposal.

    Unfortunately , or fortunately depending on your perspective the Mormons operate like a beehive .

    In Nevada , who has a very large Mormon population , if the Mormons aren’t behind it , it almost certainly doesn’t pass. If I were to guess Id say over 90% of eligible mormon voters vote and almost all would follow whatever edict their ward advised.

    Interestingly tho , there is a libertarian Mormon growing population who is challenging the outdated and ridiculous traditions.

  13. Carolyn Marbry

    Gays aren’t the only ones who fist. Likewise, Don, they aren’t the only ones who engage in oral sex, nor are they the only ones who engage in anal sex. Is it the fact that it’s two people of the same gender, Don, or is it that you would legislate missionary position with the lights turned off?

    You seem to have missed the fact that all this time, marriage between same-sex couples was allowed, yet nobody was teaching anything in sex education (or anywhere, really) involving “fisting.” Prop 8 was a CHANGE from what already was, so had it failed, nothing would have changed. No mandates would have gone into effect to teach things against the parents’ wills. No children would have been spirited away to “gay camps” and indoctrinated.

    Prop 8 took rights away from Americans, something that should disgust you. Set aside your distaste for homosexuality and take a good hard look at that. It took people’s existing rights away, Don — people who were harming no one and only wanted to be able to share their rights and responsibilities, like any other committed married couple. How can anyone — no, Don, how can YOU — get behind taking people’s rights away when their choices simply do not affect anyone but themselves?

    In a world filled with war and crime and other expressions of hate, how can you bring yourself to want to stifle an expression of love?

  14. libertariangirl

    BTW Grundman always lists massresistance.org as having documentation . I ask all of you to go there so you can see exactly what passes as ‘documentation’ and ‘proof’ for this looney . and if you want a really big laugh go to his other site , the corruption of alan keyes . ROFLMAO , its nothing but a ranting diatribe from a crazy person but its extremely entertaining.

  15. Paulie

    Gays aren’t the only ones who fist. Likewise, Don, they aren’t the only ones who engage in oral sex, nor are they the only ones who engage in anal sex.

    Thanks Carolyn, for standing up for the rights of us straight fisting, anal and throating enthusiasts everywhere 😛

  16. Erik Geib

    Paulie @ 14:

    “Bruce should of course be free to espouse any policy he wants, regardless of his personal experience or lack thereof in any given area – as should anyone. Likewise, I don’t have to be gay to support gay rights and marriage equality; I don’t even have to be married or interested in marriage.

    On the other hand, my own experience in Central America during the 1980s makes me that much more strongly anti-war. War is truly a horror, and while I can’t say it is never justified, I would certainly counsel a great deal of caution before choosing to go to war. Too many people only look at the benefits of proposed wars without fully considering the costs and risks.”

    Response: I’m not arguing his right to ‘espouse’ such beliefs. I’m laughing at the absurd hypocrisy of it. A man so vehemently opposed to actually fighting, but he wants to send those enlisted to kill and waste *my* tax dollars. There are few things that disgust me more than chickenhawks. If one feels so strongly about their pro-intervention views, you’d think they’d act on it at some point in their lives.

    And I think it’s a bit of strawman to compare this to gay rights issues. It’s not like gay marriage is killing people and blowing through tax dollars in epic proportions.

  17. paulie Post author

    Erik – just because Bruce did not volunteer for the draft does not mean he has not acted on his pro-intervention views. I’ll let him elaborate, or not.

    LG….when ya coming out here girl?

  18. Erik Geib

    Paulie @22,

    He didn’t just ‘not register, he (in his own words) *refused* to register. How one can reconcile their beliefs that others should fight and die (with our money, no less), while they themselves refuse to, is beyond me. It reminds me of Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Bush… all of whom did everything they could do avoid fighting. Once they were too old or safely protected from having to fight themselves, though… by all means, send others to kill and/or die!

  19. Bruce Cohen

    I am fundamentally and philosophically against the draft. At much legal and personal risk, I refused to register.

    If Military Registration were voluntary, I would register.

    I believe we should have a military.
    And we should use said military to protect America in the best way possible.

    Other than that, Erik from the East-Marxist Coast, buddy, you have no clue what my military position is today or 20 years ago was.

    You have less clue as to my Foreign or Military Policy views than the racist anti-semite Chair of San Diego California has about my religion.

    Stick to the facts, buddy.

    And when is the last time you did something for the LP at any level, Erik?

  20. paulie Post author

    And when is the last time you did something for the LP at any level, Erik?

    Erik volunteers at lphq, among other things.

  21. Erik Geib

    Bruce,

    First of all, I’ve been volunteering to help out in the LP National Office 1-2 times a week for over a year now, so sit on that and ponder it for a moment.

    Second of all, I’m not from the east coast (not that it matters, because your ‘marxist’ assertions are delusional and laughable). I was born, and spent the first 19 years of my life, in Texas.

    As for your assertion that using the military in the fascist ways you advocate will ‘protect America’, I’d recommend reading:

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/hornberger/hornberger64.html

    You may also enjoy reading Smedley Butler sometime.

  22. butthead

    (Grundmann,) Set aside your distaste for homosexuality and take a good hard look at that.

    Heh heh. She said “hard.” HARD. heh heh.

  23. Don Lake .......... I think

    “BS/ BC” has a suspicion of Anti American Israel First Jewish Zionism for years [mimicking Reform Party of California’s Reich Marshal John Blare].

    Sandy Ego County’s Sand Paper Twins [Ed Tesslier (sp) and Richard Rider] are know to me to be at least incompetent business people —– or even out and out liars. [Cohen: You have less clue as to my Foreign or Military Policy views than the racist anti-semite Chair of San Diego (County) California has about my religion.]

    What a [dysfunctional deform party/ reform party style] recruiting tool ——- not good!

  24. Don Lake .......... I think

    Carolyn Marbry is Lazy Ass #2 ……// Feb 6, 2010:
    “Gays aren’t the only ones who fist. Likewise, Don, (GRUNDMANN) ‘

    is not

    Donald R. LAKE

    is not

    Donald J. GRUNDMANN

    is not

    Donald R. LAKE

    is not

    Donald J. GRUNDMANN

    is not

    Donald R LAKE

    ——– damnit!

  25. Don Lake .......... I think

    Erik Geib // Feb 6, 2010: (Paulie @22)
    ” Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Bush (George W any way, daddy was the youngest US fighter pilot in WWII)… all of whom did everything they could do avoid fighting. Once they were too old or safely protected from having to fight themselves, though… by all means, send others to kill and/or die! ”

    Don’t forget Dean Martin, Jerry Lewis, Frank Sinatra, John ‘Duke’ Wayne, and (Video Unit Captain) Ronnie (Liberal Democrat and Union Organizer) Ray Gun, (serving proudly in Hollywood) ……………

    It’s a dirty job, and real heroes, like WWI ambulance drivers Hemiway and Walt Disney, like Jimmy Stuart, Clark Gable, and news hounds Walter Cronkite, Ernie Pyle, Edward R. Murrow and cartoonist Maldane!

  26. Carolyn Marbry

    Lake, I thought it would be obvious to you that since you didn’t make those remarks, my reply wasn’t aimed at you. I also didn’t realize you were posting in this thread. Apologies.

  27. Gene Berkman

    Interesting sidenote on the role of churches in promoting Prop 8 – while the role of the Mormon Church has been highlighted, Prop 8 also received financial support from the Church of Scientology.

    It is well known that L.Ron Hubbard was anti-gay, but it is likely that the Scientologists supported Prop 8 to try to convince other religious people that Scientology really is a church.

  28. Old Antifederalist

    Paulie at 14, your comments about socially conservative Afircan-americans voting for Obama and Prop 8, are dangerously close to the idea of Catholic Trotskyism. If you are not careful, you could provoke him to return from his mission early and come back to posting here.

  29. Old Antifederalist

    And LG, what’s funny about Grundman’s Corruption of Alan Keyes site? Do you deny that Alan Keyes is corrupt?
    Ironically, they probably agree about the issue of homosexuality 100%.

  30. paulie Post author

    CT is welcome back anytime.

    Grundmann vs. Keyes…well, at least most of Grundmann’s faction is antiwar, but they are both way off on social issues – and a few economic issues too, such as international trade freedom.

  31. LibertarianGirl

    old anti federalist , whats funny is the first few lines and then it only gets funnier…:


    With a torrential rain a river rises to overrun an island in its midst. As a Duck approaches the river bank to swim from the island The Scorpion approaches. ” Mr. Duck, please save me.”

    ROFLMAO , maybe if he wants people to take his site seriously maybe not lead off with a thinly veiled allegory about a duck.

  32. paulie Post author

    maybe if he wants people to take his site seriously maybe not lead off with a thinly veiled allegory about a duck.

    You can’t duck the Fist of God.

  33. paulie Post author

    *Gangster Johnny on TV: Hold it right there!
    Girl Gangster on TV: It’s me, Johnny.
    Gangster Johnny on TV: I knew it was you. I could smell you getting off the elevator.
    Waiter: Two scoops, sir?
    Kevin: Two? Make it three. I’m not driving.
    Girl Gangster on TV: Gardenias, Johnny. Your favorite.
    Gangster Johnny on TV: You was here last night, too, wasn’t you?
    Girl Gangster on TV: I was singing at the Blue Monkey last night.
    Kevin: She was not. She was smooching with your brother.
    Gangster Johnny on TV: You was here, and you was smooching with my brother.
    Girl Gangster on TV: That’s a dirty lie!
    Kevin: See.
    Gangster Johnny on TV: Don’t give me that. You’ve been smooching with everybody! Snuffy, Al, Leo, Little Moe with the gimpy leg, Cheeks, Boney Bob, Cliff… I could go on forever, baby.
    Girl Gangster on TV: You have me all wrong.
    Gangster Johnny: All right, I believe you, (grabs Tommy gun) but my Tommy gun don’t!
    Girl Gangster on TV: Johnny… You’re the only duck in my pond.
    Gangster Johnny on TV: Get down on your knees, and tell me you love me.
    Girl Gangster on TV: Baby, I’m over the moon for you.
    Gangster Johnny on TV: You gotta do better than that!
    Girl Gangster on TV: If my love was an ocean, Lindy will have to take two airplanes to get across.
    Gangster Johnny on TV: Maybe I’m off my hinges, but I believe you. That’s why I’m gonna let you go. I’m gonna give you til’ count of three to get your lousy, lyin’, low-down, four flushing carcass out my door.
    Kevin: She’s rat bait
    Gangster Johnny on TV: 1… 2…
    (fires Tommy gun, and kills the gangster girl)
    Gangster Johnny on TV: 3. Merry Christmas, you filthy animal. (fires again) And a Happy New Year. (fires again)

  34. Gene Trosper

    Weird ramblings about ducks aside, I very much enjoy Carolyn’s article. many of us in California have been fighting for marriage equality quite a long time and we have definitely been making inroads.

  35. Don Grundmann

    ” LibertarianGirl // Feb 5, 2010 at 10:57 pm

    LOL ”

    Response – How typical. Perhaps only a few Libertarians or anyone else responding to my post would not laugh when discussing the protection of children from attack upon them. But of course LibertarianGirl, as with Jill P. and so many others, not only has no objection to any such attack but in fact supports it. And you all call and consider parents who want to protect their children as ” bigots?” And that anyone who opposes your attack ” hates?” Just as you consider those of the black community who want to protect their community from your Plantation Master attack to destroy the morality of their community as bigots also. It is YOU who ” hate ” morality and humanity as a whole as you support and endorse the attack of the homosexual movement upon the children of our nation. The whole advance and objective of the homosexual movement is an attack to destroy Christian morality; the foundation of our society, culture, and nation; so that the Plantation Masters of the nation, the bankroll behind the homosexual movement, can rule the destroyed and docile ( like all of you ) remnants of the population. I notice not ONE PEEP from you rodents about protecting children – NOT ONE. Instead you, represented by LibertarianGirl, have a good laugh. That says all that needs to be said about your character and morality. The REAL people of our nation are not going to roll over and allow you rodents to attack their children and the generations to come. Your soul sickness will be stopped.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  36. LibertarianGirl

    don Grundman I dont think that sight provides proof , its very simple , it doesnt pass the bullshit test . If fisting were being taught , it would be on every news station , theres a reason its not , it cant be verified. but Im sure youll respond with how its all a big conspiracy.

  37. David F. Nolan

    LG has made it abundantly clear that she detests pedophiles – so any attempt to portray her as a “supporter” of child molestation is just total BS. I don’t know who this Grundmann character is, but he comes across as being about as (in) sane as Eric Dondildo.

  38. Bruce Cohen

    Don is trying to hijack this post to be about his fight with the very nice and honorable Mark Seidenberg here.

    I would respectfully ask that Mister Don stop trolling here.

    Thank you.

  39. butthead

    posted by sugarfree

    http://reason.com/blog/2010/01/11/maricopa-county-attorney-andre#comment_1522340

    SugarFree|1.11.10 @ 5:54PM|#
    Andrew and Eric swirled their tongues around the other’s like buzzards over a fresh carcass of roadkill. The redness of their cheeks crept up their faces as their eyes narrowed to complementary steely glints. Their mustaches were wet with each other and excited, stiff like the spine ridge of a threatened dog.

    “It’s about law and order,” Andrew murmured, “we can’t let chaos reign.”

    “Of course not,” Eric replied in a hoarse whisper. “Our enemies want to kill us. They wait for us around every corner.”

    Eric gasped as Andrew’s thumb slipped into the scaled confines of his anus. Eric rubbed Andrew’s slack testicles in response, gently fondling each veined oblong in turn.

    “How,” asked Andrew, “how can it be that I love a libertarian? What will I tell Joe?”

    “Tell him,” Eric said, between the flutter of small kisses he was peppering Andrew face with, “that I’m barely a libertarian anyway. I hate Mexicans too.”

  40. Gene Trosper

    @43 Don J. Grundmann, I respectfully suggest you up your intake of meds. Clearly, your current dosage amount isn’t working.

  41. Gene Trosper

    @41 Actually, Don, I have quite a few of them. In fact, there is a box of them in my garage somewhere. When I find them, would you like one?

  42. Jill Pyeatt

    As far as protecting children, Mr Don-I-Hate-Even-Gay-Children-Grundmann, we’ve been through this before. I love children enough to protect them from malignant dinosaurs such as you. You don’t deserve any more comments from me because you’re mentally ill and don’t recognize it in yourself.

    To everyone else reading this thread, I was so horrified by Mr Grundmann’s nasty and foul comments a few months ago that I did some research on him. He is an unmarried, childless man who has devoted his life to talking about the supposed homosexual conspiracy to destroy the family and Christianity. There is a photo of him outside a courthouse where some jubilant gays had married holding a sign with some assorted message of hate. From what I can tell, the Constitution party he talks about has for the most part ignored him.

    I’m sorry for whatever event or events made him this way, but children–all children–need to be protected from his hatred.

  43. The Last Conservative

    Don Grundman, you are a great patriot for supporting the destruction of the gay agenda.

    But you’re still a treasonous liberal commie just like everyone else in this country, because you refuse to endorse the establishment of an absolute monarchy.

  44. Don Grundmann

    ” If fisting were being taught , it would be on every news station , theres a reason its not , it cant be verified. but Im sure youll respond with how its all a big conspiracy.”

    Response – LibertarianGirl – I believe that I made this bet before and it was not accepted but given that I may be repeating myself I now do it again – $1,000 cash is my bet that the fisting indoctrination/teaching event happened. The event has been verified in multiple documentation but, as you know, the real question is not whether it happened or not but whether you will accept/believe/admit the fact that it did. The sky can be blue but you can persist in calling it green even when you are looking right at it. It is the same phenomenon that claims that unborn children are ” blobs of tissue ” as compared to the human beings which they are. Basic science and facts right in front of your eyes make no difference when your anti-life religion demands that you deny them. The homosexual community can molest all of the children that they want in reliance that you and Jill P., as classic examples, will not lift a finger to stop them lest you be accused of being ” homophobic,” a fate worse than death to those whose most important mission of their existence is to protect their precious ego/self-image/fantasy no matter how rotten it may be in reality. Hence the homosexual movement can advance unchallenged and actually supported by the both of you in obtaining its basic aims. The proof of their plan, such as by Kevin Jennings, is there for all to see as it is being implimented as I write. But you both will never see/admit it not because it is not there but because you both do not want to see/admit the elephant in the room; an ” elephant ” which will make you look bad when and if you both finally admit that you both believe in it. It is a character flaw/defect called denial . Those who plan on, and currently are, attacking our children know that you both have it and are counting on you both never stopping using it. And they are right that you both never will.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

  45. Carolyn Marbry

    Don’t be ridiculous. Homosexuality is not a “movement.” What, do you think they’re trying to convert people to their way of life? And I have to laugh if you think homosexuality is remotely related to abortion. If there’s any group of people completely unlikely ever to face abortion, it would be homosexuals. FOCUS, Grundmann, FOCUS.

    We’re talking about already existing rights for people to live together and have the same rights and responsibilities as other people. No connection to “movements” other than an equal rights “movement” and no connection to abortion rights.

    Already addressed your idiocy about homosexuals molesting children. No, PEDOPHILES molest children, and pedophiles are actually slightly more common among straight people than among homosexuals. In other words, attraction to children is not tied either to heterosexuality or homosexuality but is a separate issue.

    If you would accuse me of supporting pedophilia, given my posts on this very site, you’re obviously uninformed. And that’s putting it lightly.

  46. Don Grundmann

    NAMBLA Info
    Welcome to NAMBLA’s Home Page!

    Who We Are

    Why NAMBLA Matters

    NAMBLA FAQ

    What Is Man/Boy Love

    How to Help

    How to Join

    ” What, do you think they’re trying to convert people to their way of life? ”

    Response – I have filmed NAMBLA many times at the San Francisco ” Pride ” Parade; i.e; where the homosexual community shows what it has PRIDE in. No other community – Eskimos, Italians, Australians, Nigerians, Vietnamese, etc. – NO ONE ELSE – has a group dedicated to molesting children. NO ONE ELSE has child molestors marching in their community parades. NO ONE ELSE. No other group has a professional child molestors group with chapters throughout the nation. ONLY the homosexual community can have PRIDE in these ” achievements.” NAMBLA is only one of virtually countless examples which I can present to put the lie to your statement. So Ms. Marbry you are either ignorant or a liar. And I will not accuse you of being ignorant. You know EXACTLY what you are pushing/promoting.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

    NAMBLA Info
    Welcome to NAMBLA’s Home Page!

    ——————————————————————————–

    Who We Are

    Why NAMBLA Matters

    NAMBLA FAQ

    What Is Man/Boy Love?

    ——————————————————————————–

    How to Help

    How to Join

    Publications

    Bookstore

    What People Are Saying

    Recommended Readings

    Boys Speak Out

  47. Nate

    Actually, Mr Grundmann, you’re wrong.

    Now, you’re wrong about a lot of things and I could extrapolate that to the entire CP, but that’s one of the things you’re wrong about. Guilt by association doesn’t work, certainly not when the “associated” are a tiny – mostly outcast – minority.

    But nevermind that. You’re just plain factually wrong when you claim that no other group wants to lower the age of consent. In fact many groups wouldn’t mind lowering the age of consent by a year or two. But let’s look at an extreme example: The German group “Die krumme Dreizehn” (the crooked 13) wanted the age of consent lowered to 13. So let’s hear a racist rant against all Germans, please. As far as I know they were heterosexual as well, so please also accuse all heterosexuals of pedophilia.

    Looking forward to hearing from you.

  48. Don Grundmann

    Nate – 1) The soul pathology of child molestation exists in both nominal ( surface/fake ) heterosexuals and in the homosexual community. As the entire population is composed of at most 2% homosexuals then the amount of child molestors in the 98% heterosexual population is obviuosly numerically greater in that population graphic. The by far greater per capita amount of child molestors is found in the homosexual community. 2) The heterosexual community does not A) actively endorse child molestation and B) declare the sexual liberation of children; i.e; their molestability; as an absolute necessity for their ultimate freedom and liberation, of both the children themselves and the homosexual movement as a whole, as does the homosexual community. Singular homosexuals will fortunately object to the plans of the movement as a whole but only the homosexual movement has child molestion as one of its foundational objectives. 3) Only the homosexual community has child molestors openly march in their community parades; an occurance which is all the more significant since those events are called PRIDE parades; i.e; what the community celebrates, showcases, values, and presents as both its highest public image(s) and objective(s). 4) Officials of the homosexual community, such as Belgian Ambassador James Hormel, have been asked numerous times to denounce NAMBLA and associated organizations. They have continuously refused. 5) A San Francisco Chronicle book review published just yesterday stated noted that, in their pervert supporting view, NAMBLA suffered from bad politicking and horrible public relations. So from the perspective of the homosexual community their problem with the public rejection of child molestation is only one of public relations and marketing. Since that is exactly how they plan to solve the problem, by mass brainwashing via ( especially in the school systems ) Social Engineering psychological warfare tactics, we have one of their countless shills, Carolyn Marbry, dutifully fulfilling her role in addition to proclaiming that there is no ” homosexual movement ” when books by the homosexual community have been written documenting its existence as with ” After The Ball,” the most well known of such documents.

    Don J. Grundmann, D.C. Vice-Chairman American Independent Party, California branch of the Constitution Party

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