[NOTE: Karl Dickey is a long-time Florida Libertarian Party activist and recently posted the below article. IPR readers may be interested in this discussion because the topic seems to come up a lot here and elsewhere.]
By Karl Dickey
Where were all these protesters when Barack Obama was bombing innocent people in countries from which these immigrants are running?
I am not for the ban or the wall; however, please use arguments that make sense.
If the travel ban was a direct “attack on Muslims” then it would have extended to Indonesia, which has the largest population of Muslims in the world. I am familiar with Indonesia because I have business there.
What about the other large populations of Muslims from India, Nigeria and Egypt?
The ban is on the 7 countries (originally identified by Obama) as the most dangerous, it was not against Muslims.
Trump and others may or may not have a bias towards Muslims — please do not reduce your effectiveness by utilizing selective outrage. It is as if a whole section of the U.S. population just woke up. Have you been sleeping the last 8 years?
You should have been outraged over the last 8 years, like Libertarians have been, while the Obama administration was creating the situation we’re in now.
While we welcome you now to our cause of peace, please do not excuse yourself that you are a person of principle when you have sat by while the person you voted and supported the last 8 years has caused tremendous rifts across the globe.
The difference between Libertarians and Democrats/Republicans is, we base our outrage on principle, not who is sitting in the White House.
What principle do you live by?
And no matter your principle, then please exercise it consistently no matter who is in office. When our Libertarian presidential candidate said things that were anti-Libertarian we didn’t just stand by, we voiced our outrage.
But when Clinton or Trump said things on the campaign trail contrary to your principles many of you continued your “Rah Rah” enthusiasm.
Stop it, just stop it.
Be a person of principle, because otherwise you just play into the hands of the “powers that be”. It does not matter where you are on the political map, stand up for what you believe CONSISTENTLY.
Think for yourself!
It is tiring to hear from good people that I know, who have TOTALLY discounted the horrible killings from the last 8 years. While Obama shredded the Constitution with his “kill list” and innumerable violations, many of the Americans now protesting Trump were utterly oblivious to Obama’s horrendous actions.
Ronald Reagan’s massive military buildup was the precursor to WWIII, wasn’t it?
precussors for global war, among other things. More later.
“So there is precedence, here.”
No. It’s your own fantasies that have been stoked by the corporate media.
I’m not endorsing any military buildup, trade wars, protectionism, or torture but these are not necessarily interventionist. Making the world safe for Democracy (Wilson) is interventionist. Providing “leadership” on the world stage and forcing western democracy on nations (neocons including Weld) is interventionist. Waging “Humanitarian” War (Gary Johnson) is interventionist. America First (Trump and the opposition to intervention in WWII) is noninterventionist.
Truman was a war criminal. Massive bombings of civilian populations, using both conventional and nuclear weapons. His crimes are up there w/ Hitler, IMO.
A massive military buildup of an already obscenely bloated military that dwarfs the rest of the world is not non-interventionism. Re-instituting Bush era torture in the open is not non-interventionism. Continuing droning of civilians overseas is not non-interventionism. Bellicose rhetoric threatening trade wars w/ other countries is not non-interventionism. Bellicose rhetoric threatening American companies is not non-interventionism. Bellicose rhetoric threatening dissent at home is not non-interventionism.
The reason why trump became so popular w/ republicans is b/c he promised in no uncertain terms he would unilaterally use the national security state to punish enemies. Had absolutely nothing to with non-interventionist lip service. it was all about the reality TV show celebrity businessman who would elevate rightest pc culture to crush the cultural enemies of the right. Build soviet-era walls. Ban muslims. And there is no doubt that his right-wing christian base would have no problem with a muslim genocide that would put Hilter’s genocide of the jews to shame. Of course, it was the christians who did that, too. So there is precedence, here.
The reality of what happened 80 years ago should serve as a reminder not to ignore the rhetoric of like-sounding strongman canactuallydoabes backed by an extensive military/security that are capable of carrying the worst out. That’s called learning the lessons of history. Educated men heed the lessons of history. Fools and knaves ignore them.
I understand that roughly half the population, be it partisan Repubs or dems, are fatalistically attracted to using the massive American national security state to punish perceived enemies., political or otherwise. But the only thing you will achieve is building a prison. And you will not be able to tear it down, even when you come to detest the thing. Even when everyone comes to detest it.
That’s only a small part of the answer, it’s not baseless speculation but the logical conclusion of a pattern that is already abundantly clear, and it’s ridiculous to claim that he’s “non-interventionist,” as already extensively explained in past threads. However, not playing tonight, as I have less than 3 hours to post another 12 articles. I don’t want to set the record for the lowest number of posts in a month. Plus one after that for the new open thread. I may get back to you later. Otherwise refer to past statements.
I certainly do not believe we’d be any better off with Hillary Clinton, and what is really sad is that the Libertarian Party lost a lot of cedibilty by nominating a the unprincipled Johnson/Weld ticket. We’d have greater moral high ground to stand and point the finger of criticism if we (or at least a majority of the delegates, as I did not vote for them) had not nominated the least principled candidates on stage in Orlando.
I already know the answer. He’s going to start a war with China/Russia/Mexico and drop a nuclear bomb that will kill millions, right? This is baseless speculation that could be said about anyone who becomes president. One president actually dropped nuclear bombs, was he worse than Hitler?
The real reason neocons like Weld, McCain, and Graham oppose Trump is because he is noninterventionist and doing what he can to avoid war with Russia. If you can’t see that then you are blind.
dL, you make some really absurd statements. I NEVER said that I am supporting Trump. Frankly, I do not trust the guy. He stood by his statement that Snowden is a traitor. He has also pledged his undying support for the Israeli state. Look at the people whom Trump has surrounded himself with and you will find lots of people of which there are good reasons for concern.
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It is funny, but I was criticized for bashing Trump elsewhere.
dL certainly jumps to conclusions.
Just because I am not jumping on board with some of these left wing idiots, it does not mean that I am on the Trump train either.
You are engaging in simplistic thinking.
Quite a bit, but it would take some time to explain. I’ve been posting quite a bit about it in many different threads. I’d rather go post some articles now but may get back with you on that later.
What has he done so far that suggests he will kill millions of people?
Wring party, wrong movement for you, pal. If we are sitting around debating a figure who made his own inauguration day a national day of patriotic celebration, someone has to leave.
He’s just getting started. Hitler didn’t kill 12 million people in his first two weeks, either. But the pattern is the same, and do we really need to wait until millions are killed before we stand up against it?
What has Trump done (in reality, not comic book fantasy) that makes him worse than someone who killed around 12 million people?
It beats rightest PC snowflakes who like to suck authoritarian cock.
Using Bill Weld as a source does not help your argument. Asshole politicians say bad things about eachother all the time. Look at Weld’s record. He has no credibility.
When he’s right, he’s right. And he was right about Trump.
And he was correct.
Yeah, Bill Weld is a New World Order shill. Take anything he says with a grain of salt.
It’s far from hysteria, and Trump will wind up being much worse than Hitler. For one thing, Hitler never had nukes.
William Weld is a Bush-Romney establishment NeverTrumper.
Even William Weld compared Trump’s policies to Kristallnacht…repeatedly.
The whole “Trump is literally Hitler” hysteria is quite funny.
Paulie and Jill:
“This stuff going on in this country is scaring the heck out of me.”
–You and me both.–
Why are you more scared now?
In the last 16 years it was publicly revealed that our government is spying on us. Our country has been bombing 7 countries. The last two presidents have run the debt up from $6T to $20T and more than tripled the money supply (M1).
What happened in the past week or two that has made you more scared?
The main source of my disquiet is the polarization of people in this country. There are only two sides, 2 choices, and no one seems able to think beyond that. Long-time friends are mad at each other. Genuine debate and even conversation seem impossible anymore. There are only “good guys” or “bad guys”, with each individual choosing their side and slotting anyone with any disagreement at all into the other category. Perhaps most of us here on IPR are exceptions, but in my daily life, that’s what I’m experiencing.
First they came for the Socialists, and I did said “Well, W. tripled the National debt, what’s the difference”?
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I said, “The government has been spying on us for 50 years, what’s the difference”?
Then they came for the Muslims, and I said “”Well, Obama bombed 7 countries, what’s the difference?”
Then they came for me, and I said “Hmmm, I finally see the difference.”
Btw: Organizations like the ACLU have been consistent over the presidential cycles. Are they sitting around issuing “what’s the difference” press releases or actively helping people?
Well, I did caution that I had not independently verified the claim, nor do I know who this guy was or remember which show he was on. But that’s still a staggering number. Imagine 30 million refugees in the US. I stand by the rest of the prior comment.
Jordan has taken in about 600,000 refugees, which works out to roughly 10% of the population for a country with less than 7 million people. The percentage equivalent in The United States, with over 3 x 10^8 people, would be something on the order of 30 million refugees.
NOTE: refugee flows are not “immigration.” Refugee flows are not the consequence of “open borders.” Refugee flows are the consequence of a war criminal foreign policy.
Trump’s promises include ratcheting all that up at a rapid pace and he is moving quickly to implement his promises. All of his rhetoric and moves, remarkably similar to the rise of authoritarian regimes in many countries.
I’ve been posting on why extensively in many threads for quite a while now.
Paulie and Jill:
“This stuff going on in this country is scaring the heck out of me.”
–You and me both.–
Why are you more scared now?
In the last 16 years it was publicly revealed that our government is spying on us. Our country has been bombing 7 countries. The last two presidents have run the debt up from $6T to $20T and more than tripled the money supply (M1).
What happened in the past week or two that has made you more scared?
Actually the theme is the message, not the messenger. Do you have any thoughts about what was said, or are you going to obsess over who that mysterious mailman is that bought the letters to your mailbox? Nothing I am saying is unique. There are any number of people saying the same things, in any number of other places. So try to focus on the ideas if your brain can handle it.
I see an apostle theme here of mysterious one name new posters, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Are you guys part of a traveling gospel group?
Someone on a TV interview yesterday was saying that Jordan has taken in so many refugees that it would be equal to 100,000,000 coming to the US, in comparison with their population. I haven’t tried verifying this but that’s a magnitude that is hard to imagine. Trump’s deportation/refusal to admit order includes legal permanent US residents who have traveled back to their home countries or elsewhere overseas, tourists who have no intention of staying in the US, people en route to emergency life saving medical procedures that are not available anywhere else, even little children. Trump is sick and very dangerous and we need to resist him every step of the way. Anyone supporting or making excuses for him in any way is complicit, no different than the “good Germans” in Nazi Germany. What we have in the US now is the beginning of something that may turn out not just as bad, but actually worse.
Exactly! Not to mention builds up more animosity toward our country around the world and the middle east especially. Our Allies in Europe certainly can’t be happy that we are neglecting our duty as decent people and refusing to take in refugees. This puts more of a burden on Europe, which is already a powder keg. As Darth Trump would say . . . . Sad!
It’s too bad the bottom of the flier appears to have gotten cut off in posting it. The third point of the libertarian approach, about not barring refugees from coming to the U.S., seems to be missing.
I would not want anyone to think that supporting government discrimination based on the location of a woman’s vagina at the time of giving birth was a libertarian position.
However Karl Dickey’s call for people to be principled and consistent no matter which quadrant of the political spectrum they’re in, so as not to simply play into the hands of the powers that be, is a very important message.
I respond in dashboard also, which is why the easiest way to do it is to hit reply to the top comment, or wherever my pointer happens to be hovering. I know that in regular view it doesn’t show up so I don’t pay attention to who I am “responding to” in dashboard. Sorry for the confusion.
You and me both.
Okay, thanks for your explanation.
I keep the dashboard open and read the comments from the “Comments” page there, and I was reacting to your tag “In reply to Jill Pyeatt”.
Wow, I need to get a grip on things. This stuff going on in this country is scaring the heck out of me.
I think you misread that. That’s just the subheadline of the Reason Magazine story I was recommending on the most recent relevant thread. I was not responding to your comment or saying anything at all about you.
Paulie, I’m offended that you somehow think I support Trump. I don’t. I was the first one on Facebook Friday night asking where the protest was about the stupid Executive Order regarding people coming here.
http://reason.com/blog/2017/01/30/flip-flop-on-green-card-holders-highligh
Trump’s immigration order is cruel, counterproductive, and punishes immigrants (and their families) who have followed the rules and don’t pose a threat.
I completely agree. When did I say otherwise?
http://reason.com/blog/2017/01/30/trumps-travel-ban-says-this-iranian-gran
Trump’s Travel Ban Says This Iranian Grandmother Is Too Dangerous to Visit Her American Grandchild
Trump’s immigration order is cruel, counterproductive, and punishes immigrants (and their families) who have followed the rules and don’t pose a threat.
Eric Boehm|Jan. 30, 2017 3:15 pm
dL, I don’t consider telling everyone I know about Obama’s drone-murdering and daily bombing a “talking point”. I never stopped talking about our military presence in way too ,many countries. I won’t stop reminding everyone about Hillary’s and Dubya’s lies that have kept us at “war” with so many countries.
I do appreciate Mr. Dickey pointing out the hypocrisy that’s so blatant in this country, though.
Hmmm, not mentioning refugees at all is a big EVASION of principle, by both Relich and Dickey. At least use a short version of the moderate language the LP uses. Very disappointing article. Unless you just want everyone to know that Dickey is a trumpite at heart 🙂
They are here now. Where you? Over in the same camp w/ republicans spewing the same talking points about what Obama did.
Well, I guess that solves a mystery. Since the Klan hasn’t lynched ALL the black people, they obviously aren’t racist.
Here’s what I think is the big difference between Obama and Trump.
People thought that Obama saw the bombings as a necessary evil that he deliberated over and regretted have to do.
With Trump, I think both his supporters and detractors can easily picture him being totally gung-ho for bombing all targets military or civilian and taking joy in watching our “enemies” being blown to bits.