Reeves Group Files Appeal in Judge’s Decision Re: Leadership of LP of Oregon

In a move that surprises no one, the Reeves group has filed a notice of intent to appeal the judge’s May 2013 decision regarding the lawsuit saga of the Libertarian Party of Oregon.

Notice of Appeal (P0362232xA8AA7)

For background, please put Oregon LP in the IPR searchbox, and you’ll get almost 60 articles going all the way back to May 2011.

The reaction on the Libertarian of Oregon Facebook page has been immediate. Says Chrystal S. Green:

“Oh good. I look forward to a group of individuals continuing their attempt to take over the leadership of a group of people who don’t want them. So… If they win, I’d bet dollars to doughnuts a very LARGE group of people would change their registration to ‘Independent’ and discontinue funding.”

Fred Jabin adds:

“One should never base political strategies on the Michael Myers Halloween movie franchise.”

To be continued–

142 thoughts on “Reeves Group Files Appeal in Judge’s Decision Re: Leadership of LP of Oregon

  1. Wes Wagner

    Maybe we can move David Terry’s veiled threats at suing you for defamation into this thread so we can ask him whether or not he has already embarrassed himself enough in court for one decade?

  2. Joe

    This reads more like War and Peace, only longer and with better costumes, than the Halloween franchise.

  3. paulie

    I don’t read Dave Terry’s comments, and there’s no mechanism to move comments between threads. I could erase it in a different thread and post it here but then it would appear as my comment. Who did he say he would sue? If it’s IPR, I think Warren can handle it. If it’s me, assuming he manages to serve me, I have no assets and no wages that could be garnised or attached, so it would be a waste of his time. Nor would I waste time responding, showing up to court or hiring an attorney, so he can sue me all he wants. I do believe everything I have posted on here is well within the rights of free speech and opinion that is common on the internet.

  4. paulie

    This reads more like War and Peace, only longer and with better costumes, than the Halloween franchise.

    I don’t think it rises anywhere near the level of War and Peace. I think Jason X is probably a pretty apt comparison. Next, we’ll need to bring in a character such as Joe Silvestri or Dr. Tom Stevens for something along the lines of Freddy vs. Jason.

  5. Joe

    One more — I’m sure they’ll get this sorted out, and win the case, before the deadline to get Gary Johnson’s name on the Oregon ballot . . . last year.

  6. Nicholas Sarwark

    One can usually appeal an adverse ruling. However, in a case that involves fee-shifting, the financial effect is “double or nothing,” as the fees of defending against the appeal will add on to any fees already awarded if the appeal is unsuccessful.

    The first rule of holes is a good one to live by.

  7. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I hope that ultimately the Reeves group will have to pay attorney fees, which a little bird told me are in the category of a quarter million. Perhaps they should have left things alone.

    I do wonder what they envision. It seems to me that the Libertarian Party of Oregon is currently functioning well as far running candidates in the past elections, and moving forward with growing the party. Does this other group really think they’ll win, and the Libertarians in the state will accept this new leadership with open arms? It defies the current status of the state party.

  8. paulie

    I’m sure they will dig the hole as deep as they possibly can. Based on every precedent here, as long as there is some way to appeal something they will take it all the way.

  9. Wes Wagner

    Paulie

    Are you suggesting they are the nega-X-men Juggernaut of Libertarian Politics? Once they begin down a path of losing, no force can possibly stop them?

  10. Jake Porter

    Black Knight: ‘Tis but a scratch.
    King Arthur: A scratch? Your arm’s off.
    Black Knight: No it isn’t.
    King Arthur: What’s that then?
    Black Knight: I’ve had worse.

  11. Dave Terry

    Fred Jabin adds:

    “One should never base political strategies on the Michael Myers Halloween movie franchise.”

    Nor, for that matter should they be based on the movie “Reds”. One Bolshevik revolution
    is enough!

  12. Dave Terry

    Wes Wagonwhore wrote:

    Maybe we can move David Terry’s veiled threats at suing you for defamation into this thread.

    Drunk already??? It’s only 5:30 PM! I made no threats of suing anyone. That’s your schtick!

  13. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Dave said on the Kshama thread:

    “Pope Paulie> “Don’t blame me,”

    Poor PP, when you speak with the authority of the Pontiff, you are responsible for everything,
    good OR bad. Maybe you should post all of his ravings in RED INK!

    I’m saving his post for my attorney, just in case. I could not have written a better defense.
    Could you re-post it again and THIS time include a reference to PTSD?”

    So, that wasn’t a reference to suing someone?

  14. Dave Terry

    Chrystal Green wrote: ““Oh good. I look forward to a group of individuals continuing their attempt to take over the leadership of a group of people who don’t want them. If they win, I’d bet dollars to doughnuts a very LARGE group of people would change their registration to ‘Independent’ and discontinue funding.”

    Ms Green, you have been sorely misinformed. First of all the Wagner faction are the ones who committed the coup and the dire consequences that you predict had already happened before you and many other came along.

    Are you aware that the LPO had a 2500 sq.ft. office in downtown Beaverton from 2002 to about 2006, paid for with considerable contributions raised by those of us who are NOW associated with the “Reeves” faction. Those contributors are now down the road frightened off by Wes Wagner and his gang of Trotskyites.

  15. Wes Wagner

    The office in question left about a $1000-2000 hole in the budget every month despite all the best fundraising attempts from Burke to raise the funds to cover it. By the time Burke was ousted (after all the issues of using the party debit card for personal expenditures among others), there was over $45k in debts to be dealt with.

    But he did have a cool place to keep a bed in the back of for a while there.

  16. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Dave admits: “had already happened before you and many other came along.”

    You’re kind of making my point. Clearly Ms. Chrystal is happy with the way things are now with the LP of Oregon. She doesn’t know who the heck you guys are, except that you’re costing the people she works with in the party lots of money and time. Again, do you really envision the Libertarions of Oregon will embrace the new leaders should you miraculously win? Think this through.

  17. Dave Terry

    Jill Pyeatt wrote: “So, that wasn’t a reference to suing someone?

    Not at all. What do you think the reference to PTSD meant? :>)

  18. Dave Terry

    Jughead wrote: “Jill, he was having an episode. He doesn’t remember that event.

    If I need any shit, I’ll open your head and dip it out!

  19. paulie

    Are you suggesting they are the nega-X-men Juggernaut of Libertarian Politics? Once they begin down a path of losing, no force can possibly stop them?

    Certainly there is a force that can stop them. It won’t come from their end though. They’re going off the rails on a train of fail.

    Dave said …

    Thanks for the reminder of why I no longer read his less than half baked delusional babbling. Semi-coherent nonsense, much as I remember, but possibly even more degenerated, likely showing the sad progression of senility or some other degenerative disease of the brain.

    I’m saving his post for my attorney, just in case. I could not have written a better defense.
    …..
    So, that wasn’t a reference to suing someone?

    Probably not. One can never tell, due to the lack of coherence, but I am inferring that he is vaguely hinting that he may do something, most likely to me, for which he will need the defense of an attorney. I would further hazard a guess that this something would be some sort of violent act, for which he would attempt to get off the hook by claiming that as I had pointed out he is not in full possession of his mental faculties, resulting in him being confined to a mental health care facility rather than a jail and/or prison. Alternately, he may attempt to have his attorney claim that the unspecified act that he may or may not be threatening to commit will be justified since calling him out as a likely mental case is grounds for extrajudicial violence.

    At least that seems to be what is implied by him saying he would need a defense, rather than suing me/us, in which case he would be the plaintiff and I/we would be the one(s) in need of a defense.

    Since he made his possible threat implicit rather than explicit, I will not ask Warren to remove his commenting priveleges yet. Please let me know if he makes an explicit threat, i which case I will ask that he be removed.

  20. Dave Terry

    JP> “Clearly Ms. Chrystal is happy with the way things are now with the LP of Oregon.

    Come on Jill, surely you are smarter than that. Of course she’s “relatively”: happy with the status quo; she has nothing to compare it to, (except the D’s and R;s) Actually, NEITHER DO YOU!

    > “She doesn’t know who the heck you guys are, except that you’re costing the people she works with in the party lots of money and time.”

    Then I’d guess it would behoove her to find out the facts (U2)

    > “Again, do you really envision the Libertarians of Oregon will embrace the new leaders should you miraculously win?”

    Well, I’M not the least worried. I’ve been active in this party since 1972 personalities have come and gone. What people NEED are Libertarian PROGRAMS, Libertarian POLICIES and Libertarian PRINCIPLES.

    Not personalities.

  21. Wes Wagner

    Jeffrey Geiger:

    “I think it is funny considering I have been a member of this party since Jefferson Smith ran against blumenure or however you spell his name. I think if Burke and the other faction really cared about the Libertarian Party of Oregon they would back off their lawsuit and try to build the party up but not tear it down.

    Their actions however speak of people who seem power hungry and not caring of the parties health.”

  22. Wes Wagner

    Bruce Alexander Knight:

    “I guess Reeves, Burke, Carling, and Terry don’t think they’ve caused enough trouble yet; this appeal could drag the case out for another couple of years, and is even less likely to succeed than their original lawsuit.

    I just wish Burke would concentrate on “helping” Republicans who are willing to pay him. Or is he doing just that?”

  23. J.D.

    Jughead wrote: “Jill, he was having an episode. He doesn’t remember that event.

    If I need any shit, I’ll open your head and dip it out!

    Another zinger from Dave. This is clearly a person with all of their faculties working. Also very Libertarian thinking. Do everything I say, agree with everything I say, or I will call you names. I say the cheese has done slid off his cracker.

  24. Wes Wagner

    The amazing part is that he physically assaulted our treasurer, threatened me immediately afterwards and continues to try to play like he was the victim in legal filings.

  25. paulie

    “The office in question left about a $1000-2000 hole in the budget every month despite all the best fundraising attempts from Burke to raise the funds to cover it. By the time Burke was ousted (after all the issues of using the party debit card for personal expenditures among others), there was over $45k in debts to be dealt with.

    But he did have a cool place to keep a bed in the back of for a while there.”

    Other than that did the office serve any purpose? Was it just a money pit sinkhole or did anything useful get done there?

  26. Wes Wagner

    paulie

    It was used for volunteer events, etc… but to date we have yet to find a member of the party who said they joined because we had a cool office.

    When I first became chair for my first tenure back in the late 2000s, we immediately downsized to a much smaller office that had some common areas, were able to accomplish all of the same activities, were cash flow and income statement positive within one month and continued to be so until my term ran out in 2008.

    There was no room for beds in the back and fewer complaints of sexual harassment, however.

  27. paulie

    “The amazing part is that he physically assaulted our treasurer, threatened me immediately afterwards and continues to try to play like he was the victim in legal filings.”

    Unfortunately for Mr. Terry, unlike on TV or in the movies, in real life the insanity defense very rarely ever works. US jails and prisons are chock full of severely mentally deranged inmates who are not in their right mind. Many are on psych drugs while others are undiagnosed or manage to avoid swallowing their medication. Only about 1% of insanity/mental incompetence defenses succeed. There are also an increasing number of senile old people living and dying in jails and prisons in the USA.

  28. Steve M

    if i understand the onion’s legal team’s position, that it is unfair competition to create satire and engage in politics at the same time.

    I don’t think their problem will be that the major parties have been doing this for decades if not centuries.

  29. Dave Terry

    Geiger> ““I think it is funny considering I have been a member of this party since Jefferson Smith ran against blumenure or however you spell his name.

    Can’t spell it and too lazy to look it up

    > ” I think if Burke and the other faction really cared about the Libertarian Party of Oregon
    > they would back off their lawsuit and try to build the party up but not tear it down.

    LOL! That’s how the Tories talked in the 1770’s and 80’s If Jefferson, Madison & Company REALLY cared about the country they would back off and and work with the King’s ministers to build up the country , not tear it down

  30. Dave Terry

    WW> ““The office in question left about a $1000-2000 hole in the budget every month despite all the best fundraising attempts from Burke to raise the funds to cover it.”

    WOW, $1000 -2000 negative every month for 4 years. Must be the world greatest Landlord!

    The $45,000 figure is completely bogus and the shortfall was entirely the result of Wagner & Company chasing all the premium donors away.

  31. Dave Terry

    Pope Paulie wrote; “There are also an increasing number of senile old people living and dying in jails and prisons in the USA.”

    Don’t worry, your worship; I’ll come visit you

  32. Dave Terry

    WW> “It was used for volunteer events, etc… but to date we have yet to find a member of the party who said they joined because we had a cool office.”

    Who knows. But I DO know there was a lot of interest in the LPO generated as a result of all three of the Portland TV network affiliates having LIVE, election night coverage broadcast from the offices of the LPO.

  33. Wes Wagner

    And if we rented a hotel ballroom downtown we would have had more coverage.

    The office was often described by our former vice chair as “Burke’s Pimpmobile”

    As far as the party debt I will leave that to the public record and campaign finance filings to dispute DTs memory.

  34. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Dave, try this little experiment. Stop telling yourself how right you are. Read some of those comments above about the reactions to the appeal you’re filing. The, think about how many people showed up to your convention last year. Again, I ask you: Do you really think that, if by some miracle you win, the Libertarian Party of Oregon is going to welcome the new leaders with open arms?

  35. From Der Sidelines

    Would somebody please stuff Dave Terry back into whatever sewer pipe he came out of and weld the lid shut behind him? He’s stinking up the joint again!

  36. Dave Terry

    J.P.> “Read some of those comments above about the reactions to the appeal you’re filing.

    Just WHO would that be? Gutless wimps like Sidelines, who hide in innanimity, or those who are FULLY invested in the fraud that Wagner & Co have perpetrated. The ONLY person I have read that MIGHT be open minded is Ms Green and possibly yourself. (there may be others that I simply don’t recall offhand)

    > “Do you really think that, if by some miracle you win, the Libertarian Party of Oregon is going > to welcome the new leaders with open arms?

    I don’t believe it will take a “miracle”. I DO believe that the “RIGHT” is on our side. As far as the reception by the membership of the Libertarian Party of Oregon, I am perfectly willing to stand before them and ASK for their support. I firmly believe that with greater understanding on THEIR part of our (my) position and candor we will once again lead a united LPO.

    The First order of business will be to call a convention under the legitimate Constitution and Bylaw and hold elections.

  37. paulie

    As far as the party debt I will leave that to the public record and campaign finance filings to dispute DTs memory.

    DTs are notoriously bad for the power of recollection: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium_tremens


    “The main symptoms of DT are nightmares, agitation, global confusion, disorientation, visual and auditory hallucinations, fever, hypertension, diaphoresis, and other signs of autonomic hyperactivity (tachycardia and hypertension). These symptoms may appear suddenly… Other common symptoms include intense perceptual disturbance ….These may be hallucinations, or illusions related to the environment….and are also associated with tactile hallucinations …. a phenomenon known as formication. … usually includes extremely intense feelings of “impending doom”. Severe anxiety and feelings of imminent death are symptomatic of DT.”

    “DT can sometimes be associated with severe, uncontrollable tremors of the extremities and secondary symptoms such as anxiety, panic attacks and paranoia. Confusion is often noticeable to onlookers… will have trouble constructing simple sentences or making basic logical calculations. …. an increased tendency for gaffes even though …sober.”

    “DT ….carries up to 15% mortality with treatment and up to 35% mortality without treatment. DT is characterized by the presence of altered sensorium; that is, a complete hallucination without any recognition of the real world. DT has extreme autonomic hyperactivity (high pulse, blood pressure, and rate of breathing)…”

  38. paulie

    Dave, try this little experiment. Stop telling yourself how right you are. Read some of those comments above about the reactions to the appeal you’re filing. The, think about how many people showed up to your convention last year. Again, I ask you: Do you really think that, if by some miracle you win, the Libertarian Party of Oregon is going to welcome the new leaders with open arms?

    Your first mistake is reading DT’s delusional tripe (DT). Your second mistake is responding to the delusional tripe. Your third mistake is trying to reason with someone afflicted with DT.

    Would somebody please stuff Dave Terry back into whatever sewer pipe he came out of and weld the lid shut behind him? He’s stinking up the joint again!

    I’m inclined to agree but would like to give him the benefit of the doubt. Since I don’t read his comments I hope people will let me know if he crosses the line and issues any unambiguous threats ot anything else that should cause him to be banned.

  39. Wes Wagner

    Yes. The people who actually conspired to try to change the bylaws illegally first with the assistance of co conspirators in the LNC .. their victims discovered their activities … the victims effectively shot them first in self defense because they caught DT and his crew going for their gun but were quicker in the draw … then they tried but failed miserably to destroy the evidence of what happened …
    Claimed they were the victims .. got caught red handed destroying evidence … were dismissed on only one of multiple independently sufficient reasons … have peppered their filings with false pleadings … held their own convention in sun river to alter what they try to claim were the bylaws but could only do it by losing members off their roster under ridiculous interpretations (like joe tabor and I said nasty things about them and as a result voluntarily abandoned our life memberships or they could find no record of other life members existing who were still on the libertarian voter registration list and had public web page references to them) … are being led about the nose by the republican party’s lawyer … care only about who is in charge … were rejected by almost 97% of registered libertarians in the state who cared enough to respond (800+ people .. a random sample large enough for a confidence interval on an infinite population) … these are clearly people the world will deem RIGHTous.

    DT has no idea of what is coming next.

  40. ATBAFT

    This episode is a total embarrassment to the Libertarian Party. Can you imagine the fights that would break out if the LP actually started having major electoral success? {Of course, all the other parties have these dust-ups too, they just try to do a better job of washing their dirty laundry in private.

  41. Wes Wagner

    ATBAFT

    The issue to date is that the leadership of this organization does not wash dirty laundry. As a result the rank and file members had to do it in a public spectacle in most cases.

    The LP needs better leadership. Period.

    The coming Cloud(s) of scandal are going to drive that point home yet again.

  42. Dave Terry

    WW> ” the victims effectively shot them first in self defense because they caught DT and his crew going for their gun but were quicker in the draw …

    LOL! “DT and his crew”?? Well thanks for the promotion, heretofore I’ve usually been referred to as a willing dupe of Svengali Burke. Wagner has converted this case into a Hanna-Barbera cartoon; Ol’ Quick Draw McGraw Wagner to the rescue.

  43. Dave Terry

    WW> “The LP needs better leadership. Period.

    I certainly can’t disagree with this, that is if he is referring to the leadership as described on the
    http://www.lporegon.org/? web page. (which the Wagner faction still controls)

    To wit:

    Wes Wagner (Chairperson)
    Lars Hedbor (Vice Chairperson
    Jeff Weston (Secretary)
    Mark Vetanen
    Bruce Knight
    Jim Karlock
    Joe Tabor

  44. Wes Wagner

    DT

    It is hardly a promotion. Being considered too stupid to know better at least gives you a potential moral out…. but no human being could possibly be as stupid as you are acting and operate a keyboard, therefore you must be a corrupt collaborator.

  45. paulie

    This episode is a total embarrassment to the Libertarian Party. Can you imagine the fights that would break out if the LP actually started having major electoral success?

    I think it would be less bad. Inability to succeed in the larger world of politics turns our competitive instincts on each other. BTP was an extreme example of this phenomenon. The notorious fallouts among myriads of tiny Marxist sects is another.

  46. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Dave, I was a little surprised at your comment that you think I might be open-minded about who is, and should be, the prevailing party in this dispute. You may wish to read the past 50 threads or so on the topic here on IPR. I haven’t left a lot of wriggle room in what I’ve had to say.

  47. paulie

    I don’t know what DT said, but you should never be surprised by any delerious tripe coming out of DT. I refer you again to this uncannily accurate explanation of DT from wikipedia:

    “The main symptoms of DT are nightmares, agitation, global confusion, disorientation, visual and auditory hallucinations, fever, hypertension,.. These symptoms may appear suddenly… Other common symptoms include intense perceptual disturbance ….These may be hallucinations, or illusions related to the environment….and are also associated with tactile hallucinations …. usually includes extremely intense feelings of “impending doom”. Severe anxiety and feelings of imminent death are symptomatic of DT.”

    “DT can sometimes be associated with severe, uncontrollable tremors of the extremities and secondary symptoms such as anxiety, panic attacks and paranoia. Confusion is often noticeable to onlookers… will have trouble constructing simple sentences or making basic logical calculations. …. an increased tendency for gaffes even though …sober.”

    “ …DT is characterized by the presence of altered sensorium; that is, a complete hallucination without any recognition of the real world. DT has extreme autonomic hyperactivity (high pulse, blood pressure, and rate of breathing)…”

    Sounds just like the DT that is posting here!

  48. Wes Wagner

    Donald Mathews:

    “I wonder if courts ever get fed up with some people and lay down some punitive measures to try and teach them a lesson. Could the appeal make things worse for them or is the worst that can happen is they just lose.”

  49. Richard P. Burke

    All,

    I see the usual people here and doubt there are many new people reading this thread. But for those who might be new and curious, I will briefly offer this:

    On March 12, 2011, the LPO attempted to hold it’s annual business convention where leaders are elected and bylaws are amended. The convention did not go forward because there was no quorum, but those assembled did choose to effectively recess the meeting (by adjourning to a meeting) on May 21st. It was believed that it might be possible to achieve a quorum at that time. This action, proposed by Wes Wagner himself, is permitted even when there is no quorum under Robert’s Rules.

    On March 31, 2011, at a regular State Committee meeting held before the scheduled May 21st session of the LPO convention, then chair Wes Wagner and his friends purportedly adopted a new set of bylaws, purportedly elected themselves to new terms of office, and purportedly canceled the scheduled May 21st session of the LPO convention. All three of these acts were in violation of LPO governing documents. Governing documents can only be changed at a convention, and the State Committee is subordinate to convention. To legitimize this move, Wagner and his friends attempted to co-opt the force of the state by invoking a law, applying only to “major” political parties (and only those who agree to be governed according to statute) saying that a party’s State Committee was a party’s highest authority (in this case, above convention or even the membership).

    This is the true definition of a coup. Only without the guns. And it was a coup which attempted to co-opt the force of the state, an act which should be anathema to any true libertarian. At the scheduled May 21st convention session, LPO members assembled who did not recognize the authority of the State Committee to cancel the session. Again there was no quorum, so this time the convention adjourned. At this time terms of office for LPO officers expired, and the State Committee filled the vacancies. Thus was born “The Reeves Group” of LPO officers. They represent and are defending the legitimate LPO organization.

    Because Wes Wagner was the Chair of Record at the time he pulled his coup, the Oregon Secretary of State accepted his officer list and governing documents. Because the Secretary of State is barred from involving itself in a party’s internal politics, such is their policy. When informed that Wagner’s actions were in violation of LPO governing documents (and we contend state law), they insisted that we go to the courts for relief. The Secretary of State has made no ruling on the merits of this conflict, and have permitted the Reeves group to continue to function as “a” LPO State Committee during this time.

    The judgment recently won and touted by the Wagner side was not a judgment on the merits of this case. It was a narrow judgment essentially saying that courts did not have jurisdiction over cases like this. This is the ruling we are appealing. When we make it to the point where the merits of this case are considered, we believe we will win.

    This isn’t really about Wagner, Reeves, or anyone else. The personalities are irrelevant. Allowing this to stand would mean that any Chair of Record of any minor party may at any time submit officer lists and governing documents to the Oregon Secretary of State of his/her own design, and that the Oregon Secretary will recognize it as valid – and there will be no recourse in the courts for party members. Every Chair of every minor party will have the power to remain in office indefinitely under any terms he or she may choose. Membership rights will be what party chairs say they are at any given time, which means that no rights will truly exist at all.

    The national LP Judicial Committee, when this matter came before them, refused to decide saying only that it would defer to the Oregon Secretary of State which has already said that it will not decide and seek guidance from the courts. So there we are. We were disappointed in the narrow ruling on jurisdiction, but we also know that the line to judicial victory is not a straight line.

    The other side seem afraid to have the merits of this case decided in the courts and has relied upon delay to outlast us. That is understandable since they would do poorly if this were decided according to the merits of the case. But since it is impossible to build a strong party on an uncertain foundation, many of us do not believe we can build anything lasting so long as one person can sweep it all away by decree. That is why we believe this is worth fighting for, and the time which has passed does nothing to change the facts.

    Richard P. Burke

  50. paulie

    Richard, thank you for your perspective. I’m not sure how many years and how much money you plan to spend on this but I do not believe you will succeed.

    At this time terms of office for LPO officers expired, and the State Committee filled the vacancies. Thus was born “The Reeves Group” of LPO officers. They represent and are defending the legitimate LPO organization.

    Was there a quorum of state committee members present? Was everyone voting a legitimate and current member of the state committee at that time? How can someone verify the answers to these questions?

    The LNC (per JudCom), Oregon SOS and Courts have all ruled against you and it’s been well over two years. With all the different appeals at various levels, it will probably be years before you get a “decision on the merits of the case” and I find it hard to believe that by then the courts will overturn what has been fait accompli for years. And if they did, you would still have a very hard time getting a quorum under the prevailing interpretation of the old bylaws, so the problem would still be far from over. Since no convention with a quorum under the old rules has been held in quite a few years (more by the time we get to this ruling) who would even be the legitimate officers to preside over such an event? Aren’t there better uses for all the time and hundreds of thousands of dollars being spent on this by both sides?

    Wagner is not interested in being a dictator, even if he did carry out a coup. It would be easier for you to organize a sufficient number of registered LP voters, elect a new set of officers under Wagner’s bylaws (you would only need a simple majority under his group’s bylaws) and then pull a countrcoup and go back to governing the party by conventions (but without the crazy definition of quorum) than it will be for you to get relief through the courts. Wagner et al might then sue you, but then the precedents indicate that the shoe would be on the other foot and the LNC/Judcom, SOS and courts would side with you. This would take less time and cost less money than continuing to appeal through the courts. Or you can keep standing on principle and keep getting defeated.

  51. Richard P. Burke

    Paulie,

    Yes, there was a quorum at the May 21, 2011 State Committee meeting held at the end of the state convention. This has been documented in papers submitted long ago. When we get to the appropriate point in this case, this may be disputed by the other side. If so, we are confident that the evidence is on our side. Even if we lost on that point, it would probably still mean that Wagner’s bylaws are not valid and that his leaders were not legitimately elected.

    You are wrong when you say that the national Judicial Committee, the Sec. of State, and the courts have ruled against us, especially if you are talking about the merits of the case. The national Judicial Committee said it would defer to the Oregon Secretary of State and did not rule at all on the merits. The Secretary of State in turn said it would not rule on the matter at all. The courts have ruled on a narrow jurisdictional issue, which is being appealed. We’ve won other rulings earlier in the case.

    But nobody anywhere has ruled that Wagner’s actions were legitimate under LPO governing documents or that our actions were illegitimate. The only reason Wagner’s side has the ball right now is because Wagner was listed as the “Chair of Record” on March 31, 2011. Had Tim Reeves been the “Chair of Record” on that day, the motions purportedly passed by the State Committee would not have held up simply because Reeves would tell the Secretary of State they were invalid. That’s not much to hold your hat on. And in the end, it won’t be enough.

    It won’t be enough because no one person should have the ability to arbitrarily generate an officer list, set of governing documents, hand them over to the Sec. of State, then have them be considered valid without recourse. This is why it makes no sense as a strategy to give up our lawsuit, join Wagner’s group, take over, and “counter-coup”. Eventually, someone else would become chair and stage a “counter-counter-coup”. Under such an environment there are no membership rights at all – they are only what the Chair of the moment says they are. And there would is no organizational stability to build on. Every so-many years one person would knock everything down.

    A lot has been said about me on this site over the years. Even if they are all true, and I am somehow the embodiment of evil, it does not mean what what Wagner and his group did was right or that it should be tolerated by libertarians who pledge not to advocate the use of force to achieve political goals. That is one of our highest values, and it saddens me that so many are willing to tolerate it among our own in the name of political expediency.

    Richard P. Burke

  52. paulie

    Yes, there was a quorum at the May 21, 2011 State Committee meeting held at the end of the state convention. This has been documented in papers submitted long ago. When we get to the appropriate point in this case, this may be disputed by the other side. If so, we are confident that the evidence is on our side.

    How would I get to the bottom of this question if I were inclined to do so?

    Even if we lost on that point, it would probably still mean that Wagner’s bylaws are not valid and that his leaders were not legitimately elected.

    That may be, but even if it is, that does not mean the courts will go back years and years to reverse them. Possession is nine tenths of the law.

    You are wrong when you say that the national Judicial Committee, the Sec. of State, and the courts have ruled against us, especially if you are talking about the merits of the case. The national Judicial Committee said it would defer to the Oregon Secretary of State and did not rule at all on the merits. The Secretary of State in turn said it would not rule on the matter at all. The courts have ruled on a narrow jurisdictional issue, which is being appealed. We’ve won other rulings earlier in the case.

    That doesn’t matter. The practical reality of the rulings by LNC JudCom, Oregon SOS and Oregon courts is that after 2.5 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars and who knows how many man-hours spent on this matter both the national LP and the State of Oregon recognize Wagner et al as the leadership of the Oregon LP. I don’t believe this is going to change, and I don’t believe that even you believe it will change any time soon.

    But nobody anywhere has ruled that Wagner’s actions were legitimate under LPO governing documents

    Not even Wagner contends that they were. He says his group’s actions were justified, not that they were allowed under the old bylaws.

    The only reason Wagner’s side has the ball right now is because Wagner was listed as the “Chair of Record” on March 31, 2011. Had Tim Reeves been the “Chair of Record” on that day, the motions purportedly passed by the State Committee would not have held up simply because Reeves would tell the Secretary of State they were invalid.

    And if gravity did not exist, I would not be overweight. But it does and I am.

    That’s not much to hold your hat on. And in the end, it won’t be enough.

    In the end, the most likely result will be “it’s been many years, and what’s done is done so move on already.” It would be cheaper and less time consuming for you to take over LPO using Wagner’s group’s bylaws, or even petition a Liberty Party or Freedom Party or whatever unto the ballot, than to try to prevail through the courts and then overcome the steep quorum bar under the old rules.

    It won’t be enough because no one person should have the ability to arbitrarily generate an officer list, set of governing documents, hand them over to the Sec. of State, then have them be considered valid without recourse. This is why it makes no sense as a strategy to give up our lawsuit, join Wagner’s group, take over, and “counter-coup”. Eventually, someone else would become chair and stage a “counter-counter-coup”. Under such an environment there are no membership rights at all – they are only what the Chair of the moment says they are. And there would is no organizational stability to build on. Every so-many years one person would knock everything down.

    Unlikely. I have heard of no other times in the history of the LP or other parties that this has been the case. Thus, such coup attempts must be very rare. Maybe you could settle your difference with a pay per view wrestling tag team cage match?

    A lot has been said about me on this site over the years.

    Me too. Some of it is even true 🙂

    I don’t know either you or the people making allegations about you well enough to know if they are true or not. I know one young woman who personally told me you sexually harassed her, the rest of the stories are all either from people I only know through the internet, second hand or both.

    Even if they are all true, and I am somehow the embodiment of evil, it does not mean what what Wagner and his group did was right or that it should be tolerated by libertarians who pledge not to advocate the use of force to achieve political goals. That is one of our highest values, and it saddens me that so many are willing to tolerate it among our own in the name of political expediency.

    On the scale of injustices continuously happening in the world today, who control this or that state LP is a pretty minor matter. Wagner’s group is running pretty decent sized groups of LP candidates, mailing out thousands of pieces of literature, holding decent sized meetings, has an active internet presence, etc., despite the major expense and distraction of this lawsuit. If you ever somehow manage to wrestle control of the party back from them I can only hope you can do the same. But I don’t believe you will.

  53. paulie

    Ohhhh, so that’s what this is all about. Principals.

    It goes higher up than that, all the way to the Bored of Education.

    😛

  54. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Considering the series of negative outcomes the Reeves group has had so far, I think you might be making a mistake by adding more to the Wagner group’s total atttorney fees. If you lose again, as I think you will, what happens if they sue you for attorney fees? Are you prepared for that? I would certainly do that, if I was Wagner. The party didn’t pay their legal fees, their families did.

  55. Wes Wagner

    This case can’t make it to the merits because there are no merits. (1st amendment you may have noticed it got dismissed for exactly that reason)

    If it could even go to trial (which it can’t):

    Burke and the LNC conspired to create the quorum problem (unclean hands)

    Burke’s group conspired to change the bylaws of the party first with the help of national. They tried to destroy that evidence, but we got copies of it anyway from 3rd party depositions. (unclean hands)

    Thus in self defense we had to do what they did – because we knew that no recourse exists under the law — further the LNC was corrupted at the time by Aaron Starr, and even if it wasn’t, good people like Mary Ruwart would know better than to interfere even if they had the majority. (in pari delicto, plaintiffs have unclean hands are not eligible for relief regardless of what we did)

    Burke’s alleged state committee had no quorum, his people did not have a legitimate chain of custody of their offices. (no standing since they are not officers as they allege and can’t prove it up, we on the other have evidence to the contrary)

    They failed to pay their dues under their own alleged bylaws. (lack of standing since they were not members when they filed) They counter argue that they can suspend the bylaws because “they can”. (if that is true, we win even with the facts as they allege)

    At their alleged convention where they allegedly had quorum they only had it by deleting life members and others under completely dubious grounds form their alleged membership list and thus finally had enough people to reach said quorum. (in pari delicto, unclean hands, improper corporate acts, etc …)

    The statute they relied upon to stake their claim says that our State Committee had the power to do what we did. (failure to state a valid claim)

    They allege they are suing as the Libertarian Party of Oregon but the facts would prove up they don’t have the authority to do so (lack of standing)

    Their lawyer claims to represent the Libertarian Party of Oregon but has not met the standards for a derivative claim and cannot get a conflict of interest release form the Libertarian Party of Oregon because his clients are not the Libertarian Party of Oregon. To prove that you have to wade into enforcing party rules, which the court can’t/won’t do. The moment it can it calls their entire representation into question.

    And about another dozen serious issues.

    If they ever by a miracle made it to trial, due to their admitted spoliation of evidence, the standards of evidence and the jury instructions that would result would be weighed so heavily against them that they would have no possibility of prevailing.

    In my opinion, this case only made it this far because the Republican Party’s lawyer has taken a personal interest in trying to use the court to damage us for ulterior purposes, Burke is and always has been a paid stooge, someone is paying him, and the rest of the crew are damn ignorant of what is actually going on.

  56. Wes Wagner

    For the record, politics is dirty, and if you wrestle the pigs you will get muddy and dirty… but you can make damn fine bacon.

  57. From Der Sidelines

    Methinks Meesters Burke, Reeves, Terry, et al. need to realize that they can drag a dead horse to water, but all the beatings in the world won’t make it rise or drink. Such is the case with their dead horse, and now all they’re doing is wasting time and money and embarrassing themselves tenderizing horse meat.

    Sometime the best way to win a war is to cede a battle and fight differently…apparently these clowns don’t understand warfare worth a damn. The bottom line is that they lost, they are not in charge, and the more they whine, the less likely it is to change. If they are so confident they represent the LPOR, then let them marshal their support, go to the next LPOR convention, and take over–just like the revolt that happened in LPNV last week.

    Then again, if they do that, the suit becomes a moot point and they wasted all of that time and money…

    P.S. Meester Terry, I post the way I do so I can speak my mind without repercussions from other places far more relevant to my life than a blithering sewer rat like you.

    P.P.S. Mr. Wagner, I’ll take a pound or two of the bacon, and a pork loin as well. 🙂

  58. paulie

    If they are so confident they represent the LPOR, then let them marshal their support, go to the next LPOR convention, and take over–just like the revolt that happened in LPNV last week.

    Wagner’s group elects officers, bylaws etc by mail ballot to the 15,000 plus registered LP voters of Oregon, not by convention. Burke/Reeves et al do not believe this is proper and want to go back to conventions, but there are no more conventions, at least not with the power to decide anything.

  59. Wes Wagner

    Paulie

    A special convention can be called by petition. The requirements for doing so are hardly unreasonable.

  60. paulie

    Oh yeah, that’s right. I forgot.

    It doesn’t matter, by their internal logic Burke, Reeves et al. can’t legitimize your coup by following any of the avenues it makes available to them. So they will keep running into a wall over and over again instead.

  61. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    It’s truly beyond me that this very small group of people think they’re going to win their lawsuit, walk right in to their role as the new leaders, and the people will just line up and follow them. Have they not noticed the scorn and disdain people use when they speak to them? Do they really think this will go away when they miraculously win?.

  62. paulie

    At some point the objective is no longer to win, it’s to make the other guys lose. More conspiratorially minded people allege that was the objective all along.

  63. Andy

    “paulie November 22, 2013 at 9:43 pm
    At some point the objective is no longer to win, it’s to make the other guys lose. More conspiratorially minded people allege that was the objective all along.”

    One certainly has to wonder if this is a case of infiltration and sabotage of the Libertarian Party. I’d love to see a Freedom Of Information Act request on this one.

  64. Wes Wagner

    Andy

    I am not sure how you FOIA a private political party (The Oregon Republican Party) or the law practice of Tyler Smith (their general counsel).

    Please explain.

  65. Andy

    “Wes Wagner November 22, 2013 at 9:58 pm
    Andy

    I am not sure how you FOIA a private political party (The Oregon Republican Party) or the law practice of Tyler Smith (their general counsel).

    Please explain.”

    Uuuuuggggggggg!!!

    I meant doing a FOIA request to find out what all files various government agencies are keeping on the Libertarian Party of Oregon.

    I’d be willing to bet that there are files, and it would not surprise me if there is infiltration.

  66. Wes Wagner

    Andy

    Good point, but if there were something like that really going on it would probably be coordinated at the federal level.

    If someone really wanted to do that as a side project, they should do the request for the national party and all affiliates to the feds and see what they have.

    I don’t have the time … to many preparations required to destroy the Oregon Republican Party in retaliation for their lawyer’s activities.

  67. Andy

    “Wes Wagner November 22, 2013 at 10:10 pm
    Andy

    Good point, but if there were something like that really going on it would probably be coordinated at the federal level.”

    It probably is coordinated at the local level, however, it has already been exposed that local government entities spy on the LP as well. Back in 2002 the Denver, Colorado police department got caught keeping a spy file on the Libertarian Party of Colorado.

    “If someone really wanted to do that as a side project, they should do the request for the national party and all affiliates to the feds and see what they have.”

    Yes, it is past time for this to be done. There should also be FOIA requests done on key players and activists in the LP.

    I read that former LP Presidential candidate Ed Clark did a FOIA request on himself back in the 1980’s, and he found out that one of the people in attendance at the first LP of California organizing meeting back in the early 1970’s was a government plant. Unfortunately, the report contained a lot of redactions (as in things that were blacked out), including the name of the government plant. Ed Clark said that he knew everyone at that meeting, and that all of the people at that meeting remained active in the LP for years after that. So this means that a long time LP pioneer who was at that meeting was actually a government plant. I’d love to get a copy of who all was in attendance at that meeting to see if the plant could be “outted” by a process of elimination.

    I’ve heard from somebody in the LP of Kentucky that a FOIA request was done on their state affiliate back in the 1980’s or 1990’s, and that there was a plant in that organization as well.

  68. Wes Wagner

    So like the aforementioned pig, Burke showed up to thread-shiat … but didn’t stick around to answer all those pesky hard questions.

  69. Andy

    “It probably is coordinated at the local level, however, it has already been exposed that local government entities spy on the LP as well.”

    Whoops, I meant to say that spying on and infiltration of the Libertarian Party probably is coordinated at the federal level, but state and local government entities are involved as well.

  70. Wes Wagner

    paulie

    Regarding the whole how can you authenticate that their state committee members did not have credentials, it is not a simple matter. We took the depositions, but did not order the transcripts because it was not necessary yet.

    I can only assert that during those depositions not a single one of their alleged state committee members could true up their credentials and even the minutes of the washington county affiliate, which were the only minutes turned in, indicated that people other than the individuals who showed up at that fateful state committee meeting where Reeves et al were appointed to positions (which were not really vacant under the 2009 bylaws) were the state committee representatives.

    The whole thing is messed up beyond recognition.

  71. Wes Wagner

    Beyond that, even if they were somehow miraculously the officers, they let their dues lapse, rendering them no longer members of the organization. They took a bylaws suspending vote regarding dues at a later date, but at that time, none of the individuals participating in that vote (which would not be legal anyway) were actually still members/officers.

  72. Dave Terry

    “Ohhhh, so that’s what this is all about. Principles.:
    Right.

    YES Jill, Principles!
    LIBERTARIAN (not Trotskyite) Principles

  73. Dave Terry

    PF> “And if gravity did not exist, I would not be overweight. But it does and I am

    BS, you’d still be a Fat Ass and will be as long as you are addicted to PF.

  74. Dave Terry

    ww> “For the record, politics is dirty, and if you wrestle the pigs you will get muddy and dirty… but you can make damn fine bacon.

    Well that makes you an expert in TWO areas; dirty politics AND (PF) Pig Fat.

  75. Jose C

    This is the true definition of a coup. Only without the guns. And it was a coup which attempted to co-opt the force of the state, an act which should be anathema to any true libertarian.

    This is not a coup. What happened 50 years ago in Dallas was a coup. And in that coup guns were used. And America and the world changed and not for the better.

    Sorry, what happened in Oregon in the LP was not a coup. What happened in Dallas that was a coup.

  76. paulie

    No, that was an assassination. Only one person was killed/removed, the government/administration he headed remained in power. So did the legal system/framework in which it operated.

    In the Oregon LP, the leadership team stayed in power but the bylaws under which they operated were changed dramatically and not through a process authorized under those bylaws.

    A closer parallel from US history would be the Articles of Confederation being replaced by the Constitution, if that had been followed immediately by the “civil” war, and if the civil war was fought in courts and blogs instead of literal battlefields.

  77. Wes Wagner

    I think for it to be a civil war the sides need to be at least on some level equally matched.

    Reeves and crew are a tiny splinter group compared to the size of the actual Libertarian Party of Oregon.

    The just happen to have attracted the attention of the Republican Party’s lawyer … and if he was not personally invested in this case they would not be doing what they are doing today.

  78. Fred

    Dave Terry–

    You have made several comments comparing the current LPO to Marxists. Please help me understand your comments.
    In what ways does the LPO currently promote any form of Marxism?

  79. Wes Wagner

    I also agree with Paulie’s assessment of the historical parallel.

    The adoption of the US Constitution was not entirely black letter correct … but it was ultimately adopted and ratified by all the states.

    If Burke and his crew wanted a peaceful resolution to this conflict they would have shown up in food faith in November 2010 to help reform the party with their principles reflected.

    Instead they chose political warfare and called in the assistance of Americans For Prosperity and The LNC in order to create a conflict they hoped to eventually win.

    They lost and have no goodwill left in this state.

  80. Wes Wagner

    Mike Montchalin:

    “Should succession of officers within a political party be subject to state ratification? No.

    Should succession of officers within a political party be subject to state ratification IF A PARTY MEMBER OBJECTS? No.

    If a few party members object? No.

    Should the state determine if a majority of party members object to the succession of officers? No.

    (and the state has no business overseeing party elections!)

    The above is how I consider Burke’s 5th paragraph that begins, “Because Wes Wagner…..” which I consider the crux of the question.

    As much as we might like God or the state of Oregon sorting things our for us, it is a job for the membership. If we object, we leave the party. and start a new one.

    Something not in the court’s record, and irrelevant to their decision (but very relevant to us) is that the new bylaws were ratified by 97% or 98% of the membership. An important part of the ratified bylaws is that it included 100% of voters registered as libertarians as opposed to paying libertarians.

    Should membership in the libertarian party require paying money? No.”

  81. paulie

    I think for it to be a civil war the sides need to be at least on some level equally matched.

    Granted, it’s not a perfect analogy. For one thing, the US “civil war” was not properly speaking a civil war. The south wanted to secede from the north, and parts of some southern states as well as many individuals wanted to secede from the south, but I really don’t think the South had any interest in conquering and governing the northern states. In the case of LPO, both groups want control of the whole thing, not to have, say, a Libertarian Party of Southeast Oregon as a separate entity unaffiliated with LPO.

  82. paulie

    Dave Terry–

    You have made several comments comparing the current LPO to Marxists. Please help me understand your comments.
    In what ways does the LPO currently promote any form of Marxism?

    DT’s comments are not based on reason and logic. There is nothing to understand; there is no there there, only discombobulated talk/delirious typing, much as you would find among many street people or psychiatric patients. After all too many attempts, I’ve learned that trying to discuss things logically with DT is always a waste of time and thus itself an illogical course of action.

  83. Wes Wagner

    I liken the situation also somewhat like the loyalists who were not happy with the people who wanted to tell King George to go stuff himself. Except there were more loyalists in the colonies to the old ways that there are in this circumstance.

    I know Burke and company in order to try to spin a tall tale that they hope they can get someone to listen to try to make it out as if I acted independently and am a single handed tyrant… but there was an entire state committee involved in the decision and not a single person made a formal objection to the act.

    They already had their plot to surreptitiously steal the party with the help of the LNC and expected it to succeed. The narrative had to change post-failure.

  84. paulie

    I liken the situation also somewhat like the loyalists who were not happy with the people who wanted to tell King George to go stuff himself.

    I have thought of that. It may be a more apt analogy than the ones we have discussed so far. However, since you are not completely seceding from the national LP, it also falls somewhat short.

  85. Wes Wagner

    Paulie

    Yes that is true. The regime change in Las Vegas has either prevented of forestalled that.

    It would be like an alternative history where King George was immediately deposed after the colonies issued their original complaints, but before the declaration of independence was sent.

  86. paulie

    I think the colonies were headed for independence regardless. Crossing the Atlantic took 3-6 months each way, with a high mortality rate, and there was no quicker way to send messages back and forth than to make the crossing. How practical would representation in parliament have been?

    There were also a number of reasons the colonists wouldn’t have liked taxation with representation and all the obligations and restrictions on those living in the British Isles, although the slogan about taxation without representation (mis)represented that this would have solved the problem. The colonists wanted self-government, not direct rule from Britain with a rather remote representation in parliament, if all truth be told.

    I’m not sure how that applies to LPO, but since we want down that tangent..

  87. Fred

    I feel again the need to express a side of the story that I don’t think is being heard or represented.
    I know there are many new people in the LPO who don’t have the misfortune of having had to live through the dispute and all of the infighting that led to the new party constitution and bylaws.
    Since Richard Burke has again stated the reasons why he thinks that there was “a coup,” I think this side of the story needs to be presented.

    I would like to explain the situation leading up to the change and explain why I voted in favor of the change.

    My story starts at the LPO Sunriver convention in 2007. Although I had been a registered Libertarian off and on since 1983 (when I turned 18), this was the first Libertarian event I attended. I went to the convention because I received a mailing that made lots of claims about corruption in the LPO leadership. At the convention, I discovered that the LPO had been having problems for several years and there were a lot of people who were unhappy with each other.
    There were certainly two strong “camps” of people (one which was led by Richard Burke and one of which was led by Wes Wagner). There were also several people who had no allegiance to either group. Wagner’s group was proposing rules changes at that time and Burke’s group was opposing those changes. Many people were expressing the view that they didn’t have enough time to examine the proposed changes and didn’t want to make a decision without more time to evaluate the proposal.

    Tempers flared and there were threats and insults being made by people from both the two camps. After a great deal of debate and negotiation, the convention decided to create a committee to work on resolutions that would allow the two sides (and those not part of either side) to agree on constitution changes that we could offer to the members for approval. It was obvious that the intent was to find ways for all factions to work together.

    The convention elected the following people to be part of the committee: Wes Wagner, Dan Wilson, Joe Tabor, myself (Fred Jabin), Richard Morley, Adam Mayer, and Richard Burke. At Richard Burke’s suggestion the committee decided to have a chairman and Richard nominated me to be the chairman as I was seen as the most neutral person in the group (Wes and Dan represented one faction and Joe was seen as leaning their direction, but not a part of their group. Richard Burke and Adam represented the other faction and Richard Morley was seen as leaning their direction). I had only one goal—to bring the factions together and make the group whole. I was unanimously elected chairman.

    We had several meeting and I spent hours every week on the phone, through emails, and in person with the committee members. I spent the most time talking to both Richard Burke and Wes Wagner. I often found Wes and Dan to be very stubborn and unwilling to make any compromises. Wes seemed to have an incessant need to gain an apology from Richard Burke which seemed, to me like an unlikely (and unreasonable) request. But Richard Burke went far beyond stubborn. He wanted to stop the work of the committee all together and proposed steps to remove Wes and his faction from the party. He said that even if all the other members of the committee agreed on changes that he would use all of his political network and all of his authority to make sure that the changes would not pass in convention.

    It was obvious that we would not be able to find any way for the party to come together while someone was actively working to ensure that we stayed divided—even while he was working on a committee designed to find ways to come together.
    The committee didn’t manage to come up with any changes that were significant enough to get the two sides together.

    During this same period of time I became the chairman of the Marion County Libertarian party and a member of the state committee (representing Marion county). I learned more about the disputes that led to the division. There were many people who claimed that they had been excluded from conventions and meeting. There were discrepancies in who was or was not considered a member. Often times there were votes on key issues that may not have been valid because the party had failed to ensure that all the appropriate people had been invited to the meeting. Some people claimed that Robert’s Rules of Order (which is designed to help people get along in meetings) was being used indiscriminately to further alienate people. For example, one side would prevent a vote on something based on quorum if they felt the other side would win—but they would pass things without quorum if they had the votes on their side.

    At one point in time, I became the secretary of the party. The party was still having a lot of struggles and both of the factions wanted significant changes in the governing documents. One of the struggles that the party faced was trying to determine which documents were the legitimate documents. The problem boiled down to one basic principle. In order to be legitimate governing documents, they must have been created with processes that included all of the parties involved. However, I couldn’t find a time in the LPO history in which the membership or the governing documents weren’t being contended. It appeared that we didn’t have any bylaws or constitution that all parties agreed were created through legitimate means.

    I’m going to repeat that in a different way, because this is the fundamental problem we had:
    There was not a Constitution or bylaws (or even a membership list) that all of the parties agreed was legitimate.

    This takes us to the state committee meeting in March of 2011 where the new Constitution and bylaws were voted on. I attended that meeting as one of the representative from Marion County (Angela Grover –who was at that time the Marion County Chair–was the other). It was not an easy decision to say that we should abandon the “2009 bylaws” in favor of the new bylaws—but since the membership and authority of the group that set up those bylaws were in question, it didn’t seem like they were the final authority.
    So who is the final authority? It seemed to me that the real authority of the Libertarian Party of Oregon are the registered Libertarians in Oregon. The registered Libertarians in Oregon are the only ones who can decide who they elect and they should be the ones who have the authority to decide how to run the party.

    We were undoubtedly in a crisis situation. We had no real way to determine all the past disputes of membership and governing documents. We would likely be stuck in this infighting for years and unable to make progress. In order to accomplish anything, we needed to make some changes.

    There were two main points that made this seem like the best choice. First, the new governing documents would be voted on by all registered Libertarians in Oregon. This seemed like an important part in putting the party back in the hands of the people who it is supposed to represent. The second is that the new governing documents took away any ability for the party to remove someone from membership. There is only one criteria to be a voting member—one must be a registered Libertarian in Oregon.

    I voted in favor of this proposal because it was the only hope of ending the dispute. Instead of putting the power in the hands of either faction, it put the power in the hands of the registered Libertarians in Oregon.

    Was this a coup?

    Certainly it changed the governing documents and it didn’t follow the processes created in the governing documents that were currently on file at the SOS (but of course, it is disputed if those were created according to the rules that were in place before them). But there are probably a few things that would make this not fit the criteria for a coup. No sides were excluded from participating. Richard Burke (if he is still registered a Libertarian) has every right and ability to vote for officers or run for office. The people who were officers at the time of the meeting remained mostly the same. At the end of the 2011 meeting the 9 officers were elected. Everyone who was at the meeting (current state committee leaders) who wanted to be officers under the new governing documents was elected. This included Angela Grover and Ron Bream who both voted against this proposal. I declined to run for office as did Orrin Grover (who was at the meeting but not participating—he was the alternate representative from Marion County). It is probably worth noting that David Terry and David Long had been at the meeting (and disagreed with the proposal) left after David Terry allegedly assaulted Mark Vetanen.

    Before the rules change we had a serious problem. There were legitimate grievances about how all of our governing documents (not just the current documents but any documents over the last decade) were created, and the governing documents that we did have didn’t give us a viable way of changing the governing documents. We were in a situation in which there was no right answer. It was a difficult decision—but it seemed like this was the only way to solve the problem and ultimately it would put the election of the leaders of the party in the hands of every person who was registered as a Libertarian.

    There is no leader who has the ultimate authority of the party and no leader who was appointed for life. Elections for the leaders are held at regular intervals and all registered Libertarians can vote. The only people who lose in this new situation are people who would be able to be elected by a small group of individuals but wouldn’t be able to be elected if all Libertarians can vote.

    I voted in favor of our current system because it was the only way to prevent the party from either completely collapsing or to be the motivation for the continued factional infighting. The changes allow every Libertarian in Oregon to be fairly represented by the party.

  88. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Thanks for the explanation, Fred. It does help to put things into better perspective.

  89. Joseph Buchman

    Fred at November 23, 2013 at 5:00 pm,

    Thanks. Your history is very helpful.

    FYI — I was tasked by Ron Nielson to manage the Oregon situation for the Gary Johnson campaign. I reached out to both sides and . . . surrendered. My position was, we’ll do whatever you want to maximize the votes for Libertarian candidates in Oregon. My ulterior, but in no way hidden, motive was to ensure Gary Johnson’s name was on the ballot in November 2012 in Oregon (and all 50 states, or at least all of those where I was tasked to do something).

    Everything Wes told me turned out to be true. His knowledge of how things would play out in Oregon proved accurate, if not prophetic.

    I was also tasked with vetting and then endorsing on behalf of Governor Johnson, all down-ticket candidates who requested that endorsement. If I remember correctly, Oregon had more qualified candidates making that request than almost any other state. It was a pure joy working with them.

    Unfortunately I was unable to keep my word to Wes regarding various other promises that I related on behalf of the campaign. I apologized for that, did my best to explain things, and felt zero ill will in return, at least toward me personally.

    This was all, FYI, during a time when those senior to me in the campaign chose to keep Richard Burke listed on our website as our State Director for Oregon not only throughout the campaign but into 2013, relying, at least as they related it to me, on the certainty that the outcome in the lawsuits there would result in someone other than Wes being authorized to place Governor Johnson’s name on the ballot.

    joe

  90. Bob Tiernan

    “Are you aware that the LPO had a 2500 sq.ft. office in downtown Beaverton from 2002 to about 2006, paid for with considerable contributions raised by those of us who are NOW” — Dave Terry

    We’ve been through this. Wes has already pointed out what I’ve been pointing out for years, i.e. that no one we know of was so impressed with this that they joined the party. Having the office was an ego trip for people like Burke, as well as a huge diversion of funds from more effective uses.

    For example, designated donations could have been used for making the LPO and its messages more visible by using billboards with monthly words from the party. If some people were eager to provide funds for an office, they’d certainly be eager enough to help out with that idea if the pitch had been made. A small office could still be maintained at the same time.

    Speaking of designated donations from people who would have been given a list of items to steer any donations, it should be noted that when this was suggested by a number of us in the past (Michael Wilson, for example), Burke strongly opposed it. The reason may have been because it was not his idea, as well as because such a plan would prevent his from steering money to where he wanted it to go. One example of how Burke burned scarce LPO funds was back in 1993-94 when he was serving as Chair (following a mandate-creating 9 to 8 victory against someone nominated from the floor at the last minute – wow!). During the course of the year between conventions, the LPO funds hovered at about $2000. Each month bills would be paid, donations would come in, and we’d still hover at about $2,000. During the course of that year, Burke somehow convinced a majority of the state committee (which included a few who should have known better but who were still caught up in the Burke con game of disguised as doing “serious” politics) to hire a “professional convention planner” at a cost of $1,000. She came to the meetings to provide updates. So half of the LPO funds were wasted in this way, given to someone who may have been a friend of Burke’s (that’s how he did things – we never did see her name on a list of professional convention planners operating in the Portland area).

    A few years later, Michael Wilson and myself, during a period of indecision over what to do for the 1995 convention, went to the Monarch Hotel and, with our left arms tied behind our backs, wearing blindfolds and ear plugs, we arranged for a nice, cost-effective convention in less than 20 minutes. We didn’t even ask for gas money. That convention included a separate even with a Harry Browne appearance – an event that suffered from mediocre attendance thanks to a boycott organized by Burke. All of the people in the Burke faction, save for Paul Bonneau, skipped this event.

    Bob Tiernan

  91. Bob Tiernan

    “Yes, there was a quorum at the May 21, 2011 State Committee meeting held at the end of the state convention. This has been documented in papers submitted long ago.” – Burke.

    .
    Yeah, whatever.

    .
    Stop acting like you care so much about rules and protocol. You’re the one who halped make sure that for a crucial 1995 Judicial Committee hearing in a downtown building the doors were LOCKED down at the street level so that Jud Com member Fed Oerther (one-time candidate for governor and later Att’y General) once the scheduled time was reached, even though unlike conventions there’s no rule barring participation at a call-to-order. In those days of few cell-phones, once Fred arrived and found the door locked there was nothing he could do to contact those on the inside (no office phone number was provided). Not only were you afraid of Fred’s objective views, but member Martin Buchanan, a friend of Fred’s, would have been easily swayed by Fred’s reasoning during deliberations and your side would have lost. Instead, Martin was fooled by you (he caught on later).

    .
    There are so many examples of how you ignored rules that it’s hilarious whenever you pretend to care about them, even when you imagine they’ve been broken so you can pretend to care about them.

    .
    Bob Tiernan

  92. Fred

    For the sake of clarity, the Fred who posted in this thread is Fred Jabin-not Fred Oerther, who BT is referring to

  93. Wes Wagner

    I was trying to avoid Freddy Kreuger … that takes it full circle to the original post:

    “One should never base political strategies on the Michael Myers Halloween movie franchise.”

    … That is it… thread is over… shut off the lights.

  94. Dave Terry

    Fred> “In what ways does the LPO currently promote any form of Marxism?

    The term I used was Trotskyism, by which I’m referring to the policy of totally diluting the message for the purpose of extending membership to those who have no clue about the
    internal logic of marxism OR in OUR case the fundamental principles of libertarianism.

    The false presumption is that anyone who just happened to check the little box marked “Libertarian” on their voters registration card actually IS a Libertarian, and thereby entitled to make critical decisions regarding leadership and policies of the legal entity; The Libertarian Party of Oregon.

    In Oregon, those who wish to remain “unaffiliated” with a political party must check the box
    “Non-Affiliated Voter”. In MOST states this category is normally called “Independent”. The Oregon legislature changed that wording some ten years ago providing the opportunity for a few enterprising ‘nihilists’ to commandeer the term “Independent” to represent a specific party.
    This has resulted in the creation of NEW “largest minor party” called the Oregon Independent Party, whose guiding principle is that it HAS no guiding principles.

    When I began organizing County Affiliates twenty years ago, I started with the official list of “Registered Libertarians”. I very quickly learned that the category had little meaning. Ironically
    about 10% of the folks I talked to did not KNOW they were registered Libertarian OR didn’t remember registering as Libertarians. Another 20-25% had no clear OR definitive definition of
    what a libertarian actually was. This is where the cliched’ definitions of libertarianism came from;
    “we want to legalize pot”, “we want to abolish taxes”, etc

    These are the folks that the Wagner group want to control the party. Well I don’t. I want the “leaders” of the party to be drawn from those who have a track record of leadership AND dedication to the fundamental principles of the Libertarian Party.

  95. Mark Vetanen

    From court records, David Terry is registered as a Republican in the State of Oregon. In my mind, that is all that needs to be said about David Terry.

  96. Dave Terry

    WW> “Something not in the court’s record, and irrelevant to their decision (but very relevant to us) is that the new bylaws were ratified by 97% or 98% of the membership. An important part of the ratified bylaws is that it included 100% of voters registered as libertarians as opposed to paying libertarians.

    EXACTLY! I rest my case!

  97. paulie

    like appeals for death sentence serial killers , this shit just drags on and on , execute them already!

    We have. They just keep coming back, like Jason in Halloween 🙂

  98. Dave Terry

    MV> From court records, David Terry is registered as a Republican in the State of Oregon. In my mind, that is all that needs to be said about David Terry.

    You’re an idiot Vetanen; I registered Republican 30 days before the last Republican Primary so I could support Ron Paul. I REREGISTERED Libertartian 2 days AFTER the primary.

  99. Mark Vetanen

    Is David Terry arguing for the establishment of a Monarchy and Imperial court to rule over the people? Is he against that democracy?

    If so, who will pick the Monarch, and the Imperial court who will choose who the “betters” are?

    By what standards shall such people be picked? by heritage? By oaths and family alliances?

    By what means shall the subjects of such a monarchy have recourse to address grievances?

    Is this Monarchy and Imperial State of order what the GOP espouses? Is this why David Terry politically aligns himself with the GOP?

    This notion that David Terry has that everyone must pass though some sort of “Jim Crow Laws” in order to vote is outdated as well as absurd!

  100. Dave Terry

    Vetanen, your ignorance is legion. This is a PURE egalitarian collectivism speaking. Karl Marx ALSO believed that the middle class was “outdated” and the bourgeois were taking advantage of those proletarians who had never contributed a dime or an hour to the cause of society’s freedom and independence.

    Is the notion that everyone should be of sound, mature mind to vote, equally outdated and absurd, like your fat-ass buddy from Deschutes County who brought his children to a convention and coached them on how they should vote. At least he paid membership dues for them, which is more than I can say for all your political ass-ociates.

  101. Dave Terry

    Every petty tyrant and despot in history had feigned loyalty to the people, the masses, the faith, the race or some other “collectivist” rot! Why should WW be different?

  102. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    DT says: “Every petty tyrant and despot in history had feigned loyalty to the people, the masses, the faith, the race or some other “collectivist” rot! Why should WW be different?”

    Sorry, those words mean nothing. The LP of Oregon had record candidates last year, and are otherwise proceeding along very well., from what an outsider like me can tell. What is this rot of which you speak from Wes Wagner? It’s been a couple years, now, so speak up! Enumerate those terrible thing he’s doing in your state! And then tell me why you’re so sure Tim Reeve would have done so much of a better job.

  103. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I read Dave’s answers. I continue to read about how awful Wagner is and how he’s destroying the state party. I’m sick of those sore losers. It’s time for Dave to put up or shut up. What the heck is Wagner doing that is so awful during his last two years, except for running the state just fine without Dave Terry and Burke?

    These guys look like the sorest losers ever.

  104. Bruce Alexander Knight

    Among other bloviations, Richard Burke wrote, “The only reason Wagner’s side has the ball right now is because Wagner was listed as the ‘Chair of Record’ on March 31, 2011.”

    Yes, Wes Wagner became LPO Chairperson upon under the old bylaws when Jeff Weston resigned as chair earlier that month. After the alleged “coup” the Board of Directors chose to reappoint Wagner as chair.

    In June 2012, 97% of voters in the statewide Libertarian primary election said “yes” to ratifying the new Constitution and Bylaws. They also returned 7 of the 9 Directors to their seats. The new Board then reappointed Wagner chair, unanimously.

    If that isn’t a mandate from the membership, what is?

  105. Fred

    Okay Dave,
    You want to have “the “leaders” of the party to be drawn from those who have a track record of leadership AND dedication to the fundamental principles of the Libertarian Party.”

    So how do we determine who qualifies for the having a “track record of leadership” and how do we determine if they are sufficiently dedicated to the “fundamental principles of the Libertarian party”?
    Furthermore, who gets to decide what those principles are?

    You seem to make a reference to people who pay dues as being sufficiently Libertarian. But I’m sure you agree that it doesn’t take any specific political philosophy in order to pay dues. But lets look at who held the power of the LPO before the change in governing documents.
    It was almost exactly the same people who held power as right after the meeting.
    Apparently under the old rules (the ones designed to ensure that we didn’t have leaders who were elected by the registered voters) Wes Wagner, Mark Vetanen, Jeff Weston, and Joe Tabor could all gain positions of leadership in the LPO.

    There are some new faces that joined the leadership of the party during the last election. Kyle Markley (who conducted one of the most successful local Libertarian campaigns) was elected to the state committee and Jennifer Mendenhall (who is married to another long time Libertarian and has job experience as a book keeper) became the party treasurer.

    Being elected by all the Libertarians who care enough to return their ballots is actually more difficult than what I did to get elected to the board as a county representative. In Marion county (like a lot of other counties) there isn’t a strong Libertarian community. When I was first elected, we held a meeting in which only four people showed up. I was nominated by the person who had been the county chair and didn’t want to be any longer. I was elected unanimously by all four of us. I could have been very easily feigning belief in our principles in order to have a seat at the table. I know of several of the counties that the representatives were elected in similar circumstances. It didn’t seem to me that I was vetted through some rigorous standard in which I proved my worthiness as a Libertarian and a leader.

    I actually do understand your concern that we will dilute the shared values of our political party if we let people who don’t really know why they registered as Libertarians choose how to run the party.
    But is there any evidence that is actually happening?

    Is there something that Wagner, Vetanen, Weston, etc…. are doing now, that is somehow less Libertarian then the things they did when they were elected through the old rules?

    Have the registered Libertarians voted for ANYONE who might not have been elected to the party leadership through the old processes?

    I also want to make a suggestion that requiring dues is not necessarily in the best interest of the party. During the time I was Secretary of the party we had dues but the amount was set at $0, which was administratively paid annually. During that period of time our membership increased by over 50%, and we raised more money for the party than the year before when dues were $50.
    In addition, there were people like me who instead of giving to the party–directly paid for outreach events like the anti-war protests, gun shows, and Marijuana legalization events where the Libertarian party had booths.

  106. Bob Tiernan

    “I want the ‘leaders’ of the party to be drawn from those who have a track record of leadership AND dedication to the fundamental principles of the Libertarian Party.” — Dave Terry
    .
    .
    You think Burke comes to mind with that description? Dave, back in the days of the Laissez-Faire Socials c.1992-93, you had a lot of potential and were one of the two or three people there who had the best things to say. Now, after years of being in the Burke cult, you’re nothing but an old, blubbering sore-loser cry-baby.

    B. Tiernan

  107. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I agree with the above. There’s nothing Libertarian about a few people going to court to force a bunch of leaders on a state party that is showing itself to want their current leadership.

    So, Mr. Burke or Mr. Terry, you’ve been challenged to tell us what terrible things Wagner and crew have done over the past two years, and also what is Libertarian about you few people continuing to try to force your leadership on the LP of Oregon. How about some answers from one or both of you?,

  108. From Der Sidelines

    Jill, do you really expect him to answer at all or answer with anything substantive?

  109. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    If he can’t, maybe he’ll stop with the ridiculous, blustery name-calling.

    Hey, a girl can dream, right?

  110. Fred

    Why would WW be any different than any petty tyrant?
    I don’t know that he would be.

    That is another reason the new rules are better than the old.
    Under the new rules WW (or any other elected leader) doesn’t have any authority to take sanctions against members, to limit members, to discipline members, or to make members comply with his wishes.
    The party leadership has its of
    authority limited to the limited power that Libertarians have been arguing should be granted to our government.

  111. Wes Wagner

    The lack of any actual evidence of misconduct over the past several years is telling, isn’t it?

    When we did what we did we did it in the bright light of day … the other side tried a covert method of taking control of the party.

    I think every rational person by now sees the truth of this situation.

    Now do we have the will to clean out the people who were involved in trying to help a Republican lawyer install a puppet government?

  112. Michael H. Wilson

    Blazing Saddles seems to fit in here quite well.

    ” Hedley Lamarr: Meeting adjourned. Oh, I am sorry, sir, I didn’t mean to overstep my bounds. You say that.

    Governor William J. Le Petomane: What?

    Hedley Lamarr: “Meeting is adjourned”.

    Governor William J. Le Petomane: It is?

    Hedley Lamarr: No, you *say* that, Governor.

    Governor William J. Le Petomane: What?

    Hedley Lamarr: “Meeting is adjourned”.

    Governor William J. Le Petomane: It is?

    Hedley Lamarr: [sighs, then gives the governor a paddleball] Here, sir, play with this.”

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