LibertyMaven publishes and seeks additional evidence for Cynthia McKinney’s claim of Katrina mass murder

Writing in Liberty Maven, Jake4Constitution provides additional evidence related to Green Party Presidential candidate Cynthia McKinney’s recent controversial claim that 5,000 black men, likely to be prisoners, were executed and disposed of in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

McKinney’s campaign has responded to inquiries with the following statement:

During the course of Congresswoman McKinney’s focus on the victims and their mistreatment, she and her staff received reports of illegal use of force and shootings against innocent citizens from multiple, unrelated sources, including reports of attempts by law enforcement authorities to conceal the evidence of their crimes.

“Because these stories came from multiple, unrelated sources, Congresswoman McKinney did not dismiss them out of hand. She attempted to verify them with limited resources, to speak out about them and to get congressional attention through the Katrina committee hearings. Many aspects of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, despite numerous House and Senate committee hearings, remain unanswered and unresolved, including any final or reliable body counts.”

Blackwater USA was deployed in areas affected by Katrina. The Associated Press reported that

Soldiers toting M-16s strengthened their grip on this swamped city as concerns grew about the risks posed by the rank floodwaters. Officials braced for what could be a staggering death toll by readying 25,000 body bags.

The New York Times reported that

After using it for only 10 weeks, the Federal Emergency Management Agency has shut down a $17 million state-of-the-art morgue built to handle victims of Hurricane Katrina, according to agency officials. The morgue, which can decontaminate and examine 150 bodies a day and has living space for nearly 500 workers, is closing because the number of bodies coming in has dwindled to about one a week, said Chuck Smith, a FEMA official. Smith said Tuesday the morgue had been developed when officials believed there would be 5,000 deaths.

Jake cites a 2007 OpEdNews article “Baghdad on the Bayou: Disaster Capitalism and the War on Equality” by journalist Georgianne Nienaber, ACLU reports on prisoner abuse, and an excerpt on disaster capitalism from Naomi Klein. He also writes that

President Bush’s website famously instituted a “zero tolerance” policy for looting in the aftermath of the flood on 9/2/2005, and later emphasize even if someone was “looting” for “food or water.” Louisiana’s governor, Kathleen Blanco, added a “shoot to kill” order to Bush’s “zero tolerance” proclamation per ABC, also on 9/2/2005.

Jake concludes,

I challenge the Reader to find the truth, put it all together and let me know what the truth really is.

This matter is of import to the presidential race. The fact that CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC, and McBama are all not addressing or even mentioning this issue one week after the McKinney teleconference with the evidence above is reason enough to be suspicious, and calls into question their integrity as Americans.

I would not do what FOX did and infer that Cynthia McKinney is crazy without checking for the evidence first. This is shoddy journalism. Quite the opposite, I commend McKinney for stepping forward and let the evidence dictate the next step, dictate the truth, not simply sounds of blubbering madness or silence from our pitiful press corps and political leaders.

Even if CNN, CBS, NBC, and many others do not choose to exercise their First Amendment rights to the fullest, I will. I do warn you that the day may arrive when freedom of speech is stripped from dissident Americans like myself, and websites like the one you are reading now are closed down. I urge you to speak out before its too late.

135 thoughts on “LibertyMaven publishes and seeks additional evidence for Cynthia McKinney’s claim of Katrina mass murder

  1. Mike Gillis

    “This matter is of import to the presidential race. The fact that CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC, and McBama are all not addressing or even mentioning this issue one week after the McKinney teleconference with the evidence above is reason enough to be suspicious, and calls into question their integrity as Americans.”

    Not necessarily.

    They aren’t talking about fake moon landings or in UFOs being held in secret by the U.S. government, but the absence of these subjects in their speeches doesn’t lend credence to these claims.

    Some things just aren’t worth bringing up until there is evidence for their existence.

    What I see so far is the same poor logic behind the Truthers. We begin with a big claim without any concrete evidence – and one that would leave behind ALOT of physical evidence and would raise a lot of problems – like say, having to explain 5,000 missing prisoners.

    And this big claim requires big evidence. That hasn’t been provided; only alot of circumstantial facts that one can cherrypick and use to rationalize a pre-selected end result.

    Let’s find these bodies. Thousands of skeletons less than three years old with bullet holes in their skulls would be HUGE news and before we simply give this story out unqualified belief, let’s see if it is true.

    Use some reason and critical thought here before we jump the gun.

  2. G.E.

    To statist Nader supporter Mike Gillis: There are plenty of missing people from Hurricane Katrina. Do you deny this?

  3. der

    Its easy to throw stuff out and see if it sticks. It becomes difficult to provide evidence for all the garbage you spew.

  4. Mike Gillis

    “To statist Nader supporter Mike Gillis: There are plenty of missing people from Hurricane Katrina. Do you deny this?”

    I love how you start throwing names out the second you disagree with someone.

    Sure there are plenty of missing people from Katrina. But two things.

    It’s a huge leap to go from “there are many many people missing from Katrina” to “thousands of those people were actually murdered by the government”. Doubly so when you factor in that these execution victims’ bodies have yet to be found.

    And second, prisons tend to keep close watch on the people in their custody, including their populations, their identities and their location. If there are 5,000 missing prisoners, this should not be hard to verify.

    And again, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim, not the skeptic. Make your case through evidence, not circumstantial statements and kneejerk assumptions and appeals to emotion.

    5,000 bodies in a mass grave or sprinkled around the swamp like Johnny Appleseed will be found, whether by humans or hungry animals. And even if those bodies fully decompose, a bullet hole in a skull will be there waiting for you.

    Make your case, don’t just toss about insults and assumptions.

    Without hard proof, you as well say that those missing people during Katrina were taken by UFOs.

    Prove your claim and I’ll take it seriously.

  5. paulie cannoli Post author

    As far as I know, no one has made a positive claim that is present here. Ms. McKinney did, but if she even reads this blog (probably not the best use of her time at the moment), she has not had time/inclination to comment.

    I agree the claim is extraordinary.

    I’m not sure if you read Jake’s article and the other articles he links to. Did you?

    It is entirely possible that prison records disappeared during the general confusion that was taking place.

    That the men were prisoners is also a matter of speculation. They may also have been looters, or whoever the troops/mercenaries considered unruly crowds, etc.

    I am not saying this happened, just that it could have. It certainly would not be the first mass murder which was discovered years later, so the claim that the bodies would have been found is not necessarily conclusive.

    I don’t think either side should jump to conclusions.

  6. G.E.

    Calling names?

    Are you an anarchist? No.

    Do you support Nader? Yes.

    Is your name Mike Gillis? As far as I know.

  7. Mike Gillis

    You clearly used it as a derogatory term, so at least have the balls to be honest.

    Your intent was to insult me. I’m not going to argue semantics with you.

  8. G.E.

    My intent was to insult by calling you a statist? And I lack the “ball” to admit it?

    Fuck you, you big baby. That is an insult, and a deserved one.

    – Jason Seagraves

  9. paulie cannoli Post author

    You clearly used it as a derogatory term,

    That may be clear to you, but there is a certain segment of the anarcho-capitalist community that is so used to calling everyone else a statist and/or socialist that it becomes a very matter of fact thing…sort of like when other people refer to the regime as “us” or “we.”

  10. G.E.

    Of course it’s deragatory. And relevant, giving that he’s shilling for George W. Bush and his government in an attempt to discredit the Green Party nominee.

  11. JimDavidson

    From what I’ve been told by my friends in the area, there were many people in the New Orleans jail and in jails in neighboring parishes who disappeared. I think it is unreasonable to say that the government keeps good track of prisoners when the evidence is that it does not. No government does. Government does nothing well.

  12. paulie cannoli Post author

    I lack the “ball” to admit it?

    Göring has only got one ball
    Hitler’s got two, but incredibly small
    Himmler’s very similar
    And Goebbels has no balls at all!

  13. JimDavidson

    Hitler was apparently dying of syphilis in 1945 before he took his own life.

    Brad Spangler has an interesting video on his blog. Listen at 1:17 to this Congress critter say that the speaker of the house has declared martial law.
    http://www.bradspangler.com/blog/archives/1068

    What that means, exactly, in the context of a Congress that never held hearings on an enormous expenditure of funds is unclear. But fun.

  14. paulie cannoli Post author

    I had a post where I asked for feedback on that. What I heard back is that “martial law” that is being referred to in that clip refers to procedural rules in the House where legislation gets rushed through. I don’t remember if any of those replies were sourced or not.

    I think there is a separate claim that actual martial law was threatened to various congresspests if they did not change their vote to yes on the bill, but I’m not clear on the source of that either.

  15. Trent Hill

    Statist, especially in the way Jason used it, certainly IS an insult. And I certainly see why Mike Gillis takes offense to it.

    With that said–Mike, dont let it get to you. An anarchist calling you a “statist” is a compliment. Like when you walk into the mental health facility and one of the patients calls you a “normal”.

  16. Catholic Trotskyist

    For the second time in a week or so, I must agree with fascist/stalinist criminal agent Mike Gillis. Clearly Mike, you are recovering from your anti-establishment insanity, and I predict within a couple weeks you will be criticizing Nader as much as McKinney, and will be praising our Holy General Barack H. Obama, and joining the Catholic Trotskyist Party of America. Amen.

  17. The last redneck

    Government does nothing well.

    Except, apparently, control the path of hurricanes, murder 5000 documented prisoners, and manage to hide the evidence of this massive operation from everyone but one crack-pot lady and you knuckle-heads.

  18. The last redneck

    Let me guess, I should wake up, quit being a sheep, and throw off the shackles of a government that lies, cheats and steals, right?
    How revolutionary.

  19. Hugh Jass

    Trent,

    If I choose not to use the police, military, and court functions of the government, why do I have to pay taxes?

  20. JimDavidson

    I would like to see the evidence for government controlling the path of even one hurricane.

    As for what you should do, last redneck, I can think of a few things. Have you tried removing your head from that position of recto-cranial inversion?

  21. Trent Hill

    Hugh Jass,

    You are not the first, or smartest, person to make an arguement. Nor am I anywhere near the first, or smartest, minarchist to critique it. I invite you to read all of the literature where minarchists criticize anarchism—I’d be happy to point you to some literature if need be. But im not going to play out the same debate over and over and over again.

    With that said–unless you leave the country, you are always “using” the police, courts, and military. The only way NOT to “use” these things is to leave. That isnt an endorsement of the state or what it does, or any of these services. It is only a statement that those services (especially military) are SUPPOSED to be for national defense,which would include you and your property. Furthermore, wether you wanted the courts and police to investigate your killing or not–they would.

  22. Trent Hill

    GE,

    Hugh Jass is welcome to question me on minarchism. Anarchists often go back to being minarchists later on in life (see: Dana Rohrabacher).

  23. michael.098762001

    “les evenchick” , “Mitchel Cohen” ,

    http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/pipermail/lbo-talk/Week-of-Mon-20081006/016453.html
    [lbo-talk] Report on killings during Katrina in New Orleans
    Mr. X from_alamut at yahoo.com
    Mon Oct 6 15:14:20 PDT 2008

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    This is crap. And its stuff like this that gives the Left a bad rep.
    Show us the bodies!

    peace,

    Jim Davis Ozark Bioregion, USA

    http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=141735
    http://www.amazon.com/Shia-Imami-Ismaili-Muslims-Introduction/dp/1430315628/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218913605&sr=8-2

    — On Mon, 10/6/08, Mitchel Cohen wrote:

    leans
    To: mitchelcohen at mindspring.com
    A while back, I was asked to produce evidence of killings by
    official
    personnel in New Orleans, which I mentioned in my article,
    “People of
    the Dome.”

    As Cynthia McKinney has recently referred to these
    killings, more and
    more reports are becoming public, now. It would be great if
    Pacifica
    and other Indy journalists would follow-up. A friend who
    lives in New
    Orleans, Les Evenchick, has been compiling these stories.
    Here’s what
    he has just written to me:

    ——————————–
    From Les Evenchick, Oct. 6, 2008

    I have been talking and writing about killings since I
    returned from
    New York after Katrina in Nov 2005.

    When i first returned friends started to tell me stories
    about both
    individual and mass killings. I then started asking people
    I met if
    they had heard about any killings.

    Over the past 3 years, i have heard about 3 dozen stories
    from
    individuals who do not know each other and in the majority
    of cases
    supported the killings.

    I ran for city council and publicly raised the issue by
    calling for
    an investigation of the shootings of innocent people post
    Katrina.

    I received zero media coverage concerning this but several
    more
    persons contacted me during the campaign with additional
    stories.

    Here are a few of the stories I heard.

    1. A medical officer I met said he worked at the St Gabriel
    Parish
    Prison morgue and said he saw 89 bodies that had been shot.

    2. A former head of the local ACLU said while helping the
    police in 2
    districts he heard reports of about 100 persons killed by
    Navy Seals.
    He supported the killings.

    3. A friend of a New Orleans police officer reported that
    her friend
    told her that he had been involved in a killing of 68
    persons. He
    said they had orders to “shoot anyone with a gun and
    everyone around them”.

    The officer was reported as saying that the bodies were put
    in body
    bags and loaded onto trucks.

    4. A person came up to me on the street and said he
    recognized me
    from my election campaign. He said that he met a Green
    Beret in
    Tangipahoa Parish who was head of all the paramilitaries.
    He was
    reported as saying that he(the Green Beret) had seen 4
    truckloads of
    bodies that had been shot.

    5. A state police officer told another friend of mine that
    over 500
    persons were shot and killed in the New Orleans area. I had
    met that
    officer and was present when the statement took place but
    was too far
    away to hear it directly.

    6. A musician told me that a national guard officer friend
    of his
    said that about 1000 persons were killed by the US airborne
    in the
    Woodmere subdivision after several days of battles with
    other
    military and police forces. The bodies were reported to
    have been
    placed in body bags and loaded onto trucks. The musician
    told me he
    supported the killings. (This is in the area where it was
    reported in
    the press that a local police station was taken over by
    locals).

    7. I was told by another person that bodies were dropped to
    the
    bottom of the Mississippi or burned. This person also
    supported the killings.

    8. I talked with a cab driver from Algiers who said he
    helped the
    local police and heard daily reports from them about
    persons they killed.

    9. A person working at a local bar where prostitutes work
    out of told
    me that national guard members had told him that they did
    things that
    they would “have to take to their graves.” The
    same person told me
    about an incident where 17 persons took over a fire truck
    and tried
    to leave the city but were all killed. He also supported
    the killings.

    10. I heard several reports of police vigilante killings
    directed
    against ‘criminals’ the police had scores to settle
    with.

    11. I also had numerous reports of single individuals being
    killed or
    wounded on suspicion of looting, refusing to obey orders,
    talking
    back to national guard officers and the like.

    In particular, in one case a women approached a police car
    near the
    convention center to ask for information. As she approached
    the
    officer shot her in the arm without warning. (Told to me by
    a cab
    driver who had the women as a passenger)

    Another person (a neighbor of a friend) was killed when he
    did not
    hear an order to stop as he was wading through water to get
    home.

    Another person was walking on Poydras St. with his family
    escaping
    from flooding when he saw a police car. He tried to flag
    down the
    police car by stepping out in the street and waving him
    down. The
    police officer just ran him down and killed him in front of
    his
    family and kept going. (This report I found on the
    internet)

    Also I found other persons’ reports via internet
    searches who
    reported burnings of bodies at one of the Army forts in
    Mississippi.

    The above is just what I remember offhand.

    I originally left New Orleans on the Friday after Katrina
    because all
    I heard starting Thursday morning, first from Bush and then
    from
    Blanco and Nagin, was “shoot to kill” on
    “suspicion”. I did want to
    be shot on suspicion so I tried to figure out a way to get
    out.

    I had heard lots of automatic gun fire from my apt on both
    Tuesday
    and Thursday nights.

    I was able to leave thanks to a former employer who was
    able to get
    his truck out of a flooded garage. We had to go past 2
    roadblocks to
    get out of the city. We were held at gunpoint by a large
    number of
    police/military and our driver interrogated for some 10
    minutes
    before we were allowed to pass.

    Local police had warned me and a friend on Thursday to get
    out of
    town by any means possible even if we had to hot wire a
    car.

    There have been local media reports that when the Army came
    it, its
    leader went to the police chief (Eddie Compass) and asked
    him where
    the ‘hot spots’ were and said his forces would
    “take care” of them.

    I personally saw state police on flatbed trucks heavily
    armed and
    looking scared. I kept my distance. I was also searched at
    the point
    of a huge hand held weapon that i had never seen before on
    the Thurs
    before I left.

    The only Blackwater persons I saw were security guards at
    FEMA
    locations after I returned to New Orleans. I received no
    reports of
    Blackwater personnel killing anyone. Reports of killing
    always
    involved local police, national guard, state police, Army,
    and Navy personnel.

    The Army Times had an article just after Katrina that
    referred to
    what was going on as an “insurgency”.

    The only radio station broadcasting into New Orleans was
    WWL which
    had been taken over by FEMA.

    They promoted the idea that criminal gangs were taking over
    the city.
    They claimed armories were being raided. In one incident
    where a fire
    broke out in a chemical tank car (I could see the plume of
    smoke from
    my window), WWL was claiming that gangs were setting fores
    all over the city.

    I live in a third floor apt with an unrestricted view of
    most of the
    city and would have seen smoke from such fires if they
    existed.

    It seemed to me that FEMA created the fear among the
    national guard
    and other forces from outside the city that led to many
    killings on
    “suspicion”.

    Food and water was withheld from those of us trapped in the
    city. Tap
    water was turned off by the Governor (Blanco) on Tuesday
    morning
    after the storm even though the water system was not shown
    to pose
    any problems.

    We were continually told to evacuate but no means was given
    to
    evacuate if you did not own a car or have a friend who did.

    Tourists were kicked out of their hotels with no
    alternative places
    to stay until they were told to go to the Convention center
    on
    Tuesday or Wednesday afternoon.

    I also heard reports from several persons who were in the
    Superdome.
    At one point the doors were locked and no one allowed to
    leave. One
    person reported to me that a group tried to break out and
    were shot
    by national guard members. Whether any were killed i
    don’t know.

    My own opinion is that I doubt most shot and killed persons
    were
    dumped in swamps. It is more likely the bodies were
    systematically
    burned after being carried by trucks in body bags to
    military
    controlled locations.

    It is unlikely that most of those killed were prisoners
    from jails. I
    have had zero reports of such killings

    But persons did die in the Orleans Parish prison due to
    flooding. I
    met a man whose wife was told by a prison official that her
    cousin
    drowned in prison.

    I also met a women former prisoner who said she saw bodies
    floating
    when she was rescued by persons sent from Angola prison to
    which she
    was transferred.

    What actually happened needs a full investigation, that is
    clear, but
    I suspect it will be years before the truth comes out.

    Remember, during the Nazi mass murders, most knew nothing
    about them
    till the Nazi’s were defeated.

    – Les

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    Michael Pugliese

  24. Hugh Jass

    Trent,

    You use a circular argument. You say that because the courts and police would investigate the crime committed against me whether I wanted them to or not, that that is justification for having to pay taxes for compulsory courts and police. Panarchists like myself believe that the courts and police should only investigate crimes committed against their customers, rather than the entire population.

    Also, to get a pre-emptive strike when you will inevitably question me on pragmatism, can you cite any example of any form of government that started out limited in power but never grew in size?

  25. Thomas L. Knapp

    Hugh,

    You write to Trent:

    “You say that because the courts and police would investigate the crime committed against me whether I wanted them to or not, that that is justification for having to pay taxes for compulsory courts and police.”

    No, that’s not what he says. He says that’s the way it IS, not the way it SHOULD be.

  26. Trent Hill

    Thank you Knapp–I couldn’t say it better myself.

    Knapp is correct about what I said. How it SHOULD be is completely different.

  27. Trent Hill

    “Also, to get a pre-emptive strike when you will inevitably question me on pragmatism, can you cite any example of any form of government that started out limited in power but never grew in size?”

    Of course not. But I can name a few minarchies that lasted at least 50 years without seriously encroaching upon liberty (America, Mideival Iceland, Pre-colonial Pennsylvania, etc). Furthermore, this does not get to central point of my arguement against anarchism. While minarchism slowly creeps towards governmental tyranny, anarchism collapses into tribalism or explodes into authoritarianism–almost without fail. It is concievable that some anarchist society might SLOWLY trend towards minarchism, but that chance is quite small I think.
    Then again, all of this is philosphical ponderance.

  28. sunshinebatman

    Mayor Nagin made a perfectly reasonable estimate earlly on, I believe during the famous WWL interview, that 10,000 were dead.

  29. der

    I have to laugh at people who actually believe privatization of police and military would even come close to working. I’d like to know what world these people live in because it isn’t the real one. One these companies realize they are the only ones with weapons, they will merge and take power. Thus, you have a tyrannical military run state. Don’t worry we can all be happy because its private though.

    As for the topic, McKinney needs to provide some definitive evidence. If such evidence exists, then it should immediately be brought to court.

  30. Hugh Jass

    “Furthermore, this does not get to central point of my arguement against anarchism. While minarchism slowly creeps towards governmental tyranny, anarchism collapses into tribalism or explodes into authoritarianism–almost without fail”

    First of all, I think that anarchism is a derogatory term, I do not want to abolish government, on the contrary, I believe that people should be allowed to choose whatever government they wished, or none at all, without having to leave their property. Surely, if one believes that people should be free to choose their government through immigration, they should be free to do so without having to physically move. But, then again, you are an immigration restrictionist, so that argument might not work.

    Second, You neglected to mention medieval Iceland, which existed for over 2 centuries without any formal government. Plus, how can one justify theft and murder on the basis that it is done to prevent greater theft and murder?

  31. Hugh Jass

    der,

    In case you haven’t noticed, that is the system we live under today. The worst-case scenario for panarcho-capitalism would be that the PDAs form cartels and form a state, an incredibly unlikely situation that would be no different from the government we have today. You use a circular argument to justify the monopoly of defense on the basis that if a free-market in defense were to emerge, the defense agencies would merge until they formed a monopoly of defense, the exact same situation that you seek to defend!

  32. der

    Hugh,

    We live under a tyrannical military rule. I understand things are bad, but lets not be dramatic here. I can still go wherever I want, say whatever I want, and do what I want. Not even close to what would happen.

    Our current defense has at least some sort of accountability.

    Privatization of defense is an insane proposal. Private companies seek to maxmize profit. They will answer to nobody, so who is going to stop them when a few decide to merge and take over the state? It is not incredibly unlikely when they are the only ones running things.

    Nevermind the fact that a foreign country would take over the US in about a week.

  33. G.E.

    der doesn’t understand the first thing about business when he says “private companies seek to maximize profit.”

    That is a socialist canard.

    Anyone who knows anything know that private companies seek to maximize shareholder value which is an entirely different proposition.

    The “insane” thing is to think that the more important something is, the more it should be removed from the marketplace.

    If you think we don’t live under military dictatorship, try not paying a parking ticket.

  34. der

    In addition,

    you are arguing that when these private companies do take over power, we will be in the exact same situation.

    To me a military dictatorship is not the same as a Republic. That might just be me though.

  35. der

    GE,

    How is being taken to court for not paying a parking ticket mean we live in a military dictatorship. I think you should look up the definition of a dictatorship.

    Whatever semantics you want to argue, private companies will eventually condense power to a couple and take over the government for the state. History, and basic human nature tells us this.

    I don’t think defense should be removed from the marketplace because it is important. I think it should be removed because it wouldn’t work. There isn’t a one size fits all for every situation in government.

    Maybe you can ask the Iraqis how they are enjoying their private contractors.

  36. G.E.

    You will be murdered by the state if you refuse to pay your parking ticket or follow any other arbitrary law. You sound like a pure-blood aryan in Nazi Germany — Hitler isn’t imposing any restrictions on your lifestyle, so he’s not a dictator.

    I love the statist argument that we can’t have anarchy because we’ll end up with … the horror… statism! This would be like the “why should I take a shower, I’m just going to get dirty again” argument, only it isn’t true.

    Trent gets really mad when he’s made to defend his support for theft and murder on a “limited scale,” and I get tired of rehashing the same stuff over and over again. If you really understand free-market economics, the nightmare scenarios and “insane zillionaire murderers” etc. become laughable. You, Mr./Ms. der, don’t even understand the fundamental difference between generating profits and maximizing shareholder value, so until you can grasp that and really take it to heart (which will take time), there’s no point in going further with you. If “profits” were really the goal, then what you say has validity — but they’re not so it doesn’t.

  37. G.E.

    And one last thing before I ignore this thread:

    1. The state does not work. Limited government is a disaster. Look around you.

    2. The state is immoral.

    3. Anarchy “may not work” (yes it would, but let’s just say it wouldn’t).

    4. Anarchy is totally moral (i.e. no killing or robbing allowed, not even on a “limited” scale as allowed by a bogus piece of paper written up by elites).

    Arguing for the state is arguing for murder and theft. Making a utilitarian argument for the state is like making a utilitarian argument for population control. The state is evil, and anyone who seeks to rationalize its existence is rationalizing evil.

  38. paulie cannoli Post author

    If anyone has pertinent information sources that enhance or discredit Ms. McKinney’s claim about what happened in the ‘Nolia, please do so here in this thread.

  39. der

    You will be murdered by the state if you refuse to pay your parking ticket or follow any other arbitrary law.

    You will? Yeah, I don’t think so.

    Some of you “woe is me” people really need to take a step back and put things into perspective. Acting like you live under the most repressive government in history. While we do have major problems you don’t live in Africa, China, or Saudi Arabia and really have something to complain about.

    So before you go spouting off about living in a dictatorship why don’t you step back and realize the freedoms you do have.

    Yes, anarchy would not work. For the same reason Marxism would not work. You completely ignore examples of failed anarchic states (Somalia, Afghanistan) and keep thinking humans have somehow changed. Basic human nature does not allow anarchy to work

    And actually profits are the goal.

  40. Trent Hill

    “Second, You neglected to mention medieval Iceland, which existed for over 2 centuries without any formal government. Plus, how can one justify theft and murder on the basis that it is done to prevent greater theft and murder?”

    Hugh Jass, I did not “forget” mideival Iceland. It was not an anarcho-capitalist or even anarchist area–it was a tribalist one.

  41. Trent Hill

    “Dana Rohrabacher = minarchist = hahahah! ”

    Dana Rohrabacher WAS a minarchist, idiot. He was also an anarchist before that, which proves my point perfectly. READ.

  42. Trent Hill

    “Trent gets really mad when he’s made to defend his support for theft and murder on a “limited scale,” and I get tired of rehashing the same stuff over and over again.”

    And GE cant come to grips with the fact that his system of political thought is nothing more than a fairy tale–just as pretty as Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy,and just as real.
    Besides, my system results in LESS bloodsheed and LESS aggression than yours,which will almost immediately devolve into chaos or evolve rapidly into dictatorship/theocracy.

  43. Trent Hill

    I dont post at LFV, and the posts are being made here. Thread hijacking is a normal thing here at IPR and thats part of the culture. Im posting HERE.

  44. The last redneck

    Hey Jim, I went to dictionary.com and looked up all the big words you used. I can’t be sure, but I think you suggested I take my head out of my ass?
    Look at my name again. Please use smaller words when you insult me, it’ll save me a lot of time, and it won’t make you sound like such a pompous ass.
    That being said, you don’t seem to need any evidence to support the prisoner murder conspiracy.
    By the way, it’s been a few years since the New Orleans flood. Shouldn’t the prisoner’s family and friends have noticed them missing by now?
    Or have they taken care of them too. Christ! I know lots of guys in jail in New Orleans, I could be next.

  45. paulie cannoli Post author

    Shouldn’t the prisoner’s family and friends have noticed them missing by now?

    How many of the people in question were prisoners is in question. There are, I think, people who are missing from Katrina. How exactly would people who have missing and/or dead family know whether their numbers are being under-reported?

    Is there a list of all the people who are dead, and any who are missing from Katrina?

  46. The last redneck

    I find it very difficult to be serious in this thread, But this is a serious question.

    Main Entry: 1prof·it
    Pronunciation: \ˈprä-fət\
    Function: noun
    Usage: often attributive
    Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin profectus advance, profit, from proficere
    Date: 14th century
    1: a valuable return : gain
    2: the excess of returns over expenditure in a transaction or series of transactions ; especially : the excess of the selling price of goods over their cost
    3: net income usually for a given period of time
    4: the ratio of profit for a given year to the amount of capital invested or to the value of sales
    5: the compensation accruing to entrepreneurs for the assumption of risk in business enterprise as distinguished from wages or rent

    What IS the difference between profit and increasing value?

  47. The last redneck

    Just thought I should mention before before this goes much further, I was born and raised in New Orleans. I live on Monroe st. just off Claiborne. Where you guys from?

  48. paulie cannoli Post author

    Great, then maybe you know the answer to this:

    How exactly would people who have missing and/or dead family know whether their numbers are being under-reported?

    Is there a list of all the people who are dead, and any who are missing from Katrina?

  49. Trent Hill

    Paulie,

    I doubt it. But certainly there would be…ohh, I dunno…10,000 people or so who knew that they had relatives missing,right?

  50. The last redneck

    If my brother Daniel, Who is in jail, and has been for the last 8 years. If after katrina he suddenlyquit taking my phone calls and didn’t show up for our bi-monthly visits, I would ask where he was. If they claimed they didn’t know or he was in the shitter everytime I called, I would become suspicious. I wouldn’t care how many were missing, the only number I would be interested in would be 1. One missing brother. If there were 5000 others like me who had a missing brother, father, son, or whatever, I think we would be pretty hard to deal with. I know I would be.

    People who have never been to jail don’t seem to realize that their family and friends still have daily contact with them if they want to.

    And yes, as far as I know there are lists, I think the issue here is that you don’t think the list is accurate. I don’t either. It’s just that you seem to be assuming these thousands of missing people are unknown to everyone just because their unknown to you.

  51. paulie cannoli Post author

    I doubt it. But certainly there would be…ohh, I dunno…10,000 people or so who knew that they had relatives missing,right?

    Yes. But how would they know if they were one of 5, 10 or 20 thousand? Seriously, I don’t want to sound stupid, but this is a real question.

  52. The last redneck

    Oh, I don’t know, the internet maybe? Telephones, word of mouth, missing person posters on telephone poles around town? Orleans parish is not that big. The only people in Orleans Parish Jail are people from Orleans Parish. The family and friends of 5000 or even 500 prisoners would make up a large percentage of the population of Orleans Parish. We make be hicks, but we would notice. OK

  53. paulie cannoli Post author

    Oh, I don’t know, the internet maybe?

    OK, I’m on the internet. Where do I go to find a list of all the dead, and how many if any are missing, from Katrina and who they are?

    Telephones, word of mouth,

    What would you say exactly? “Let’s get folks together and do a count and see exactly how many people’s missing and dead and make sure the official numbers are right”? How would you even do that unless there is a list of exactly who all is dead and/or missing? How would you know you got a hold of everybody – especially when hundreds of thousands of people end up in Texas and every other state?

    missing person posters on telephone poles around town?

    Well, presumably there were missing people. I don’t know if there still are. What would some missing people posters prove? Do you know for sure if everyone that had missing relatives put up a poster? How would they do that if they are now in a different state BTW?

    The only people in Orleans Parish Jail are people from Orleans Parish.

    That’s odd. I’ve been in county jails in seven states (not proud of that, but it’s true), and there were people from other counties, states and even countries in all of them. What do y’all do with people who are not from Orleans Parish who get busted there, send them straight to Angola without a trial, or ship them to Alabama or what?

    Although that is a red herring since the people who got killed, if this happened, were not necessarily from OPJ or even prisoners at all.

    Maybe some of them were, maybe not.

  54. paulie cannoli Post author

    And yes, as far as I know there are lists, I think the issue here is that you don’t think the list is accurate.

    No, the issue is that I don’t know if the lists are available. Are they available, and if so where?

    If the list is available then Ms. McKinney’s story becomes a lot harder to believe because like you said, anybody who has missing or dead relatives could go look them up on the list and say “wait a minute, where’s Tashawn?” But if all you know is that Tashawn is dead and the neighbor’s cousin Larry is missing, and you see a number like 2,000 from the government with no names attached, how do you know if the count is off?


    I don’t either.

    Why not? That’s actually an interesting question too.


    It’s just that you seem to be assuming these thousands of missing people are unknown to everyone just because their unknown to you.

    Nope, I’m not assuming that.

  55. Mike Gillis

    First of all, I want to say that I didn’t call out Jason insulting me because my feelings were hurt. I called it out because when he disagrees with ANYONE about ANYTHING, his only method of debate is to launch personal attacks, usually going into a all-or-nothing, black and white, us vs. them tirade.

    What I rejected was that instead of actually arguing against the points I was making, he just changes the subject and insults me. That’s just intellectually lazy.

    That he can’t simply agree to disagree as many of the progressives on this board are willing to do with him. He needs to roll into a speech where, if you don’t agree with him to the letter or treat even the most ridiculous conspiracy with all seriousness, that you’re simply a shill for the Bush Administration, the government…etc.

    But to the main point, the burden of proof is on the proponents of this theory to prove that it should be taken seriously. In all of the info provided, all I see is the second-hand account of one person, no bodies and a lot of assumptions.

    And I don’t criticize this because it’s coming from McKinney. This is the very sort of thing that, was it coming from Nader’s mouth, I’d be questioning support for him as well. But then, Ralph, whatever his limitations, isn’t one to spout off big claims unless he has evidence and trusts the veracity of what he’s saying.

    I don’t HAVE to discredit McKinney. She discredits herself when he attaches herself to stories like this and the 9/11 Truthers. I would criticize ANY candidate who openly espoused such things on a semi-regular basis.

    And it gets a little tiring that the only response Jason gives to my criticism is insults and manichean tirades.

    Yes, I’m a radical, but I’m also a skeptic. And I don’t immediately buy into a claim because it “feels right”, I want evidence. And the bigger the claim, the bigger the evidence I’ll require. And as long as the evidence is at slim or shaky as this, my default position will always be that of doubt.

  56. The last redneck

    I’m done trying to win a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
    There’s no honor in it.

  57. The last redneck

    I don’t think the lists are accurate because they include people who died of natural causes that happened to live in the area, and died sometime around the time of the hurricane.

  58. sunshinebatman

    That list is useless. That’s a list of confirmed dead. What you want is the list of the hundreds of thousands of people that FEMA relocated, the list FEMA won’t share with the state of Louisiana, or Google, or anyone else.

    You need to compare those names to the lists (voter lists maybe) of people who lived in the New Orleans area before the storm, and now. People on the former who aren’t on the latter, and aren’t on the FEMA list, that’s your base list of missing persons.

    Hope this helps.

  59. The last redneck

    I don’t think anything could help. The problem isn’t missing lists. It’s missing common sense. How do you help someone find common sense? You either have it or you don’t.

  60. paulie cannoli Post author

    http://www.katrinalist.columbia.edu/

    “Hurricane Katrina made landfall near New Orleans on August 29, 2005, but still today we do not know the true death toll. Just how many people lost their lives as a result of that tragic event?

    The Earth Institute is attempting to document all those who died as a result of the Hurricane and its extended aftermath and we need your help.

    There are two principal reasons why the death toll remains unclear. One is that a large number of people remain missing. ”

    Doesn’t exactly give me confidence that a full list is available.

  61. paulie cannoli Post author

    If you’d like more, try google, I’ve heard they’re pretty good.

    I’m going to guess the people who made the two lists you pointed me to have already tried that.

  62. paulie cannoli Post author

    What you want is the list of the hundreds of thousands of people that FEMA relocated, the list FEMA won’t share with the state of Louisiana, or Google, or anyone else.

    You need to compare those names to the lists (voter lists maybe) of people who lived in the New Orleans area before the storm, and now. People on the former who aren’t on the latter, and aren’t on the FEMA list, that’s your base list of missing persons.

    No, because
    A) not all the people who are dead or missing were necessarily registered voters
    B) some people have since re-registered in their new homes
    C) some people were registered voters and never re-registered, so they are either
    1. Still registered voters in their former homes even if those homes no longer exist
    or
    2. Purged from the voting rolls along with lots of other people who died since then, moved out of the area, moved within the area from one address to another, lost their voting rights, or (in the case of some states) got purged because they did not show up to vote in the last election or several.

  63. The last redneck

    No, the issue is that I don’t know if the lists are available. Are they available, and if so where?

    If the list is available then Ms. McKinney’s story becomes a lot harder to believe because like you said, anybody who has missing or dead relatives could go look them up on the list and say “wait a minute, where’s Tashawn?” But if all you know is that Tashawn is dead and the neighbor’s cousin Larry is missing, and you see a number like 2,000 from the government with no names attached, how do you know if the count is off?

    Point out to everyone how I didn’t completely and totally destroy this ” point ” with one hyper-link.

    Don’t just move to your next easily disproven point.

  64. paulie cannoli Post author

    Point out to everyone how I didn’t completely and totally destroy this ” point ” with one hyper-link.

    See comments 80 and 82.

  65. The last redneck

    OK. I truly would like to walk to walk away from this, because I know futile it is to talk people out of their desperate search for The Grand Conspiracy. But I just can’t leave this one alone. How could, FEMA, George W., the pope, or anyone else outside of a supreme being , tabulate a list of missing people, and call it complete. The only ones who can report them missing are the people that knew them and know that they’re missing. The missing people themselves can’t do it. Then they wouldn’t be missing.

    Where’s the official and complete list of missing and dead for any catastrophic event, natural or otherwise?

    Where’s the complete list of people missing across the country right now?

    I’ll tell you. There ain’t one.

    That’s why these things never go away, their can never be proof that nobodies lying. Just proof that they are. I don’t see any.

  66. paulie cannoli Post author

    I’m not wedded to McKinney’s theory, but I think it deserves exploration rather than dismissal.

    One easy objection that has been brought up so far is that obviously people would notice that their family members were missing.

    I pointed out that, while that is true, since there is no comprehensive, centralized, readily available way to check who all is missing, that they would still have no way of knowing if the numbers were being under-reported.

    Thus, McKinney’s theory remains possible. The objection, while it makes sense on the surface, does not seem to hold up when examined.

    That doesn’t prove that she is correct; if anyone has any further corroborating evidence than what has been introduced so far, I’d be interested.

    If anyone has any way to disprove what she has said, please do so as well.

  67. G.E.

    And GE cant come to grips with the fact that his system of political thought is nothing more than a fairy tale–just as pretty as Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy,and just as real.

    Says the guy who believes in a man who never existed and turned water into wine, etc.

    “Limited government” is the fairy tale.

    The free market is the ideal.

  68. Trent Hill

    “Says the guy who believes in a man who never existed and turned water into wine, etc.”

    Wow,an attack on Christianity in order to prove you are right? This is how I know I’v won GE. =)
    Needless to say, not many people doubt Jesus actually existed–they mostly doubt that he was divine.

  69. G.E.

    You believe in an ancient sorcerer and “limited government.” Not sure which one is less believable.

    Have you looked into the Jesus Myth hypothesis? It’s even better than 9/11 truth!

  70. der

    “Limited government” is the fairy tale.

    Maybe Somalia is more fit for your ideals? I hear they are living pretty good. Its an anarchists paradise.

  71. sunshinebatman

    paulie 84, I was only suggesting voter lists as one possible pre-2005 database to start with as a list of people to compare against the FEMA list and other possible lists as to where those people are now. There are also DMV lists — but most of the poor people who left New Orleans via FEMA bus or quiet execution didn’t have drivers’ licenses. There’s welfare and food stamp lists from 2005, but those are more fed lists unfortunately.

    When Louisiana wanted to send voter information to relocated people for 2006 and 2007 elections, FEMA refused to give them a mailing list of where those people are.

  72. Mike Gillis

    “Have you looked into the Jesus Myth hypothesis? It’s even better than 9/11 truth!”

    I’ll give you credit there. The Jesus myth has as much going for it as 9/11 Truth. No concrete evidence.

    But we’re arguing semantics, Jason. People believe in silly things, sure.

    But like alot of religious fundamentalists, you also get angry and toss around insults if people doubt the existence of YOUR “silly things”.

  73. G.E.

    Mike “the statist Nader supporter” is way off base, yet again. I do not believe in “9/11 Truth” or any other conspiracy, other than ones that are so thoroughly documented that even you probably agree (i.e. FDR’s foreknowledge of Pearl Harbor). The point is that these “nearly proven” conspiracies, as well as fully proven ones, were once just like the 9/11 Truth and Cynthia McKinney theories — along with a bunch, I assume, that turned out to be not true (or haven’t been proven yet). I only oppose your reflexive bootlicking which is, of course, an ideological rift since you support a New Dealer and I hate the state. You are thus naturally inclined to believe in the good of government, even when it comes to Bush/Cheney.

  74. G.E.

    Gillis – Do you know of any refutations of the 100+ REDICULOUS(TM) coincidences between Jesus and other sun-god messiahs discussed in Zeitgeist Part I? I haven’t seen anything refuting them.

  75. Mike Gillis

    Jason,

    I don’t refute the obvious repetition of messianic stories from Horus to Jesus and the countless figures with the same story.

    I don’t disagree with you on this. There is no contemporary evidence for the existence of a Jesus.

    I’m not sure why you directed this at me.

  76. paulie cannoli Post author

    Possible miscommunication there. When you said “The Jesus myth has as much going for it as 9/11 Truth. No concrete evidence.” he probably thought you meant the Jesus myth theory has no evidence.

  77. Trent Hill

    “You believe in an ancient sorcerer and “limited government.” Not sure which one is less believable.

    Have you looked into the Jesus Myth hypothesis? It’s even better than 9/11 truth!”

    Once again ill say–politics is what we’re talking, not religion. Attacking my religion doesnt prove your point,nor am I going to defend my religious beliefs against you. I WILL say that im deeply offended by your statements, as I would never deride your family or religious beliefs in a simple political discussion. If you’d like to discuss religious beliefs in private,feel free to email me.

  78. Mike Gillis

    I think that’s Trent is wrong about alot, but it says something about you, Jason, that you can make the two of us agree on so many occasions.

    And yes, you can be a real child sometimes.

  79. Hugh Jass

    Maybe Somalia is more fit for your ideals? I hear they are living pretty good. Its an anarchists paradise.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy_in_Somalia

    “In the absence of a Somali state and its institutions, the private sector grew “impressively” according to the World Bank in 2003, particularly in the areas of trade, commerce, transport, remittance and infrastructure services and in the primary sectors, notably in livestock, agriculture and fisheries.[15] In 2007, the United Nations reported that the country’s service industry is also thriving.[4] Economist Peter T. Leeson, in an event study of “the impact of anarchy on Somali development”, found that “[t]he data suggest that while the state of this development remains low, on nearly all of 18 key indicators that allow pre- and post-stateless welfare comparisons, Somalis are better off under anarchy than they were under government.” Powell et al. concur that in absolute terms, Somalia’s living standards have improved and compare favorably with many existing African states, but also report that living standards have often improved “relative to other African countries since the collapse of the Somali central government

  80. der

    Hugh,

    Somalia came in at #1 on the failed states index. You sure you want to try and stick up for that?

  81. G.E.

    You guys are the big babies.

    Trent, if you think your religion is above reproach, then that says a lot.

    Whatever.

    I’m through with all this B.S.

  82. G.E.

    Yeah, Mike G – You (advocate of mass murder and theft) and Trent (advocate of limited murder and limited theft) can agree against the guy who’s against murder and theft, entirely.

  83. der

    Hugh,

    There is more than just a lack of government in the failed states index.

    People are crazy to even try to paint a rosy picture on that situation. People are literally starving on a daily basis and rape, mutilations, and murder are a common occurance. They have had almost two decades of anarchy and it is still the worst place in the world.

    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4350

  84. Hugh Jass

    der,

    First off, I am not trying to paint Somalia as some kind of paradise. All I am saying is that it is much better than when it was under communist rule. Anyone who seriously prefers communism to anarchism is not a libertarian.

    Second, I can think of several places that would be worse than Somalia. North Korea, Sudan, Ethiopia, Congo, Afghanistan, Chad, Zimbabwe, Haiti, Iraq, etc. come to mind.

    Third, I looked at the criteria for failed states. “Delegitimization of the State” is hardly criterion for failure. If it was, then Auburn, Alabama should be on that list. “External Intervetion” is not to blame on Somalian anarchism, but on US, UN, and Ethiopian intervention. The Somalian economy may be bad, but again you must put it into perspective considering the economy was moribund during communism. Lack of “Public Services” again should not be criterion for failure, since most libetarians think government should be limited to protecting life, liberty, and property, with other public services being non-existant. If I exclude factotrs that are either not negatives or are the fault of foreign powers, then Somalia moves down the list to number 55.

    Again, I reiterate, while Somalia is hardly paradise, it is still better now than it was under totalitarianism.

    http://mises.org/story/2066

  85. Trent Hill

    “Trent, if you think your religion is above reproach, then that says a lot.”

    Beyond reproach? No, not at all. But we were having a political discussion,not a religious one–right? Would it have been suitable for me to bring up your Green history or something similar? No. You are free to question Christianity all you wish,and i’ll even help you–but an attack on my religion in the midst of a purely-political arguement shows a childish mean streak.

  86. Trent Hill

    “Yeah, Mike G – You (advocate of mass murder and theft) and Trent (advocate of limited murder and limited theft) can agree against the guy who’s against murder and theft, entirely.”

    GE — this gets tiring. You are welcome to repeat the same old mantras in your echo chamber. I have read the leading literature on anarcho-capitalism. Now if you would read the leading critiques of anarcho-capitalism by minarchists, we could engage in an informed and polite debate.

  87. G.E.

    It wasn’t an attack as much as it was a joke. Especially the second part. Jeez!

    I apologize for offending.

    But I would like to see someone refute the claims made in Zeitgeist Part I. Thus far, the only thing I’ve heard is that the devil predicted Jesus, and created all those false gods with strikingly similar characteristics ahead of time to discredit Jesus.

    Just like with 9/11 Truth, I’m not saying what Zeitgeist says is true.. I’m sincerely asking.

  88. G.E.

    Bring up my Green history all you want. I’m no longer ashamed. Cynthia McKinney makes me prouder to be a former Green than Bob Barr does to be a former Libertarian.

  89. G.E.

    You want me to read something that’s going to convince me that theft and murder on a limited scale is morally acceptable?

    I’m too busy.

  90. JimDavidson

    The internationalist socialists have attacked Somalia repeatedly, embargoed it, invaded it, had their Ethiopian proxies invade it, and have occupied it. Yeah, it has some economic problems. When it wasn’t being invaded during some of the past 18 years, it was in better shape. Maybe, and I’m just spitballing here, part of the reason the UN can’t stand Somalia without a government is because its economy was so successful without one.

    I’ve lived and worked in Somalia (2000-2001), Ethiopia, Yemen, Djibouti, Eritrea. Somalia was a dictatorship, and Djibouti still is. On the whole, I prefer Somalia.

  91. paulie cannoli Post author

    Well I guess if I can beat the threadjacking, I’ll have to join it. I don’t know what you all have against going over to my blog. I swear it does not give you leprosy or AIDS, and I don’t think it even has cooties. I’m signing up new writers, too. Anybody interested?

    Anyway, on with the threadjacking:

    #

    Anarcho-capitalism is my religious belief. From now on, you’re forbidden from deriding it.
    #

    106 Trent Hill // Oct 7, 2008 at 10:06 pm

    No,it isnt.

    Why can’t anarcho-capitalism be a religion? It can be as passionately held a belief as any religion. It includes an ethical code, although one that does not cover everything. Sure, it doesn’t have a creation story, and no outright deity (saints perhaps, to some).

    But I think the operative issue here is the deeply held belief part. That can hold equally true of political philosophies as of religious ones.

  92. Trent Hill

    GE,

    I’d be happy to debunk the Zeitgeist Part 1. But instead of hashing out the debate here, I’ll refer you to people who have done ALL the research.
    http://ct.grenme.com/index.php/Zeitgeist_Part_I#Claims_of_Historical_Correlation

    http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=124&Itemid=107

    http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/HORUS.htm

    http://www.consider.org/News/2007/12.html

    Also. Read “Some notes on alleged parallels between Christianity and pagan religions. And, a proof that Winston Churchill did not exist!” by ‘Justin Martyr’

  93. Trent Hill

    “Im too busy.”

    Said the socialist to the libertarian when asked if he’d read Mises’ “Socialism”

  94. paulie cannoli Post author

    People are crazy to even try to paint a rosy picture on that situation. People are literally starving on a daily basis and rape, mutilations, and murder are a common occurance. They have had almost two decades of anarchy and it is still the worst place in the world.

    No it isn’t. There are several countries which are worse off, and Somalia grew faster under anarchy economically than any other nation in Africa. Go to about any subsaharan African nation, and with some observation you will notice that the government there does none of the things that people claim are the good things that government does, and that it operates as an open, out and out thieving gang.

    You might disagree with anarchists that our Western governments are just the same thing with lipstick, but there is no lipstick in Africa, and you’ll have a tough time justifying any of the regimes there when you see them in action.

    If you go out in the countryside where most people live, this becomes very, very obvious, since the local government does not provide any services to the villages, but does occasionally send armed gangs of teenagers known as the state’s military to rape, loot (collect taxes), and sometimes murder and torture people. These government are universally feared and loathed by their subjects, who avoid contact with them whenever they can.

    Somalia was in the shitter under the Marxists, and to some extent remained in the shitter after their bloody regime collapsed. However, it did make some progress. Parts of the country – those that actually had real anarchy, or kritarchy – were much more peaceful than others.

    Likewise, I would not expect heaven on earth if/when North America achieves anarchy. There probably would in fact be some short term chaos. Things would shake out over a few years, and at that point we will be better off than we would have been otherwise. That difference will become more dramatic over time.

    For some greater detail, see

    http://praxeology.net/anarcres.htm

  95. G.E.

    I’m reading Don Quixote, still. And after that, I have 30 more books, classic novels, more important than Anarchy, State, Utopia, etc. Sorry, man.

    I wish Winston Churchill didn’t exist!

  96. paulie cannoli Post author

    Third, I looked at the criteria for failed states. “Delegitimization of the State” is hardly criterion for failure. If it was, then Auburn, Alabama should be on that list.

    As a sometime resident of that fine metropolis, I can’t see that being the case. The APD maintains a monopoly, and the Lee County Courthouse and Jail are tangible. The county commission levies a property tax, and perhaps a sales tax (can’t remember).

    The ill-gotten loot is used to fund various state make work projects, thugs, indoctrination and detention camps, etc. There is a separate, armed gang that claims the incorporated town as its turf, but also allows agents of the county, state, federal, and perhaps even international thugocracies to do their thing there as well.

    It isn’t greatly different than any other town in the US in those respects. More free in some ways (guns, property taxes) but worse in others (vice laws, prohibition, etc).

  97. Trent Hill

    Technicalities? No,the makers of Zeitgeist screwed up on about 100 different things, including translations, simple counting (joseph’s 11 brothers/Jesus’ 12 disciples), and The Southern Crux.

  98. G.E.

    12 is still the number given significance. Joseph is one of 12 brothers and Jesus has 12 disciples. They don’t say “Josesph has 11 brothers” and/or Jesus and his disciples numbered 13.

    Whatever.

  99. Trent Hill

    Thats not a “whatever” thing GE. When someone makes an explosive claim that one religion is based on previous versions of the same,the facts should be immaculate. They obviously aren’t.

    This is like if I said, “4 is a number of significance in the Baghavad Gita, there are four major gods, and the main Element–Fire–has 4 counterparts, Water, Wind, Earth, and Spirit.”

    That doesnt make 4 a magical number. It is an example of twisting words to try and CREATE facts that do not exist.

    For the record, 12 is a repetitive number in the Bible, as are 3 and 7.

  100. TheOriginalAndy

    How Small Should Government Be?

    by Harry Browne

    August 19, 2005

    Anthony Wile recently posted an article at FreeMarketnNews.com in which he urged that those who believe in small, limited government and those who believe in no government at all should quit arguing over their differences and unite to fight big government.

    It is a excellent article and well worth reading, but as I read it, it occurred to me that all such discussions seem to ignore one angle. We have an obvious motive to be working together without even trying to work together.

    Suppose there were a magic button sitting in front of you. And suppose that button would instantly reduce the federal government to only, say, $200 billion.

    Would you refuse to push the button — even if you want the federal government to be 0 dollars? Would you refuse to push the button — even if you think the federal government should be $500 billion?

    Once the federal government is only $200 billion, we can each go our separate way — trying to make the federal government exactly what each wants it to be. For some the federal government would be $200 billion too large, for others perhaps $300 too small. But for each a $2 trillion reduction in the size of government would be welcome. I doubt that there’s even one among us who would refuse to see the federal government at $200 billion as a first step.

    So why should we waste our time arguing now over where government should go once it’s down to $200 billion.

    Stating our Case

    I’m always arguing that government is way too big, that government programs don’t work, that free-market programs are much more effective, more fair, less expensive.

    From time to time, someone will ask me, “So how would you handle roads in your free society?”

    Instead of trying to convince someone that roads should be the province of the free market, and let the discussion be steered into esoterica — leaving listeners with the idea that this is all just an attractive pipe dream — I usually say:

    I have no doubt that roads — like anything else — would be far safer, far less expensive and far more practical if they were built and operated by private companies. But let’s stay within the realm of today’s possibilities. Let’s talk about reducing dramatically today’s $2½-trillion federal budget, about ending a scandalous welfare program, about stopping the wholesale destruction of our health-care and education systems by the federal government. In short let’s get government out of our lives wherever we can.

    If the questioner still wants to focus on roads, he will do so at the risk of losing the support of listeners who do want to talk about reducing government in their lives — in short, about two thirds or more of his audience.

    Poll after poll shows that the majority of Americans think government is much too big. This is a fertile field — one that’s ready to be shown that much smaller government can give them much more of what they want. We should be taking advantage of this bias, and pushing to mobilize this audience to flood their congressmen, legislators, governors, and the president with requests to enact legislation that will reduce and eliminate huge, bloated, government programs.

    The Future

    Once we’ve reduced government to $200 billion, I’ll personally head up a fund-raising drive to raise the money to rent the Super Bowl, so we can gather to argue how much smaller government should be.

    Until then, I refuse to join the arguments over the ideal size of government — despite any opinions I may harbor.

    How small should government be?

    Government is force, and we should be eager to remove force wherever possible from human affairs.

    So how small should government be?

    As small as humanly possible.

  101. Hugh Jass

    paulie,

    I mainly cited Auburn, AL, because that is where the Mises Institute is located, and they deligitimize the state on a regular basis.

  102. JimDavidson

    I’ve lived in Somalia. Somalis do not regard their culture as anarchy. Many are very offended by the term. But, hey, you know, people are weird.

    This problem of the disappeared dead comes up all over the world, over and over again. People disappear. Sometimes bodies are dumped in the streets. Often, they end up in an unmarked grave. It happens in small numbers, and in large numbers. It happens in all kinds of authoritarian regimes, in all kinds of countries, in all sorts of cultures.

    Eventually, the central government falls or is brought down. Then the locals who know where the bodies were buried take the investigators to the mass graves, or the individual graves. Bodies are dug up. Sometimes they can be identified. And more of the truth is known.

    Last redneck says that if you want a list of lost or disappeared or murdered persons in New Orleans, go to the internet. Hey, cool, and guess what, there are people on the internet compiling eyewitness lists and testimonials, and the reaction they often get is, “Oh, that’s nonsense.”

    But, the same thing happened to people who published accounts of the disappeared in Latin American dictatorships. Until the regimes fell apart and bodies were dug up.

    The state is inherently lawless. The people who run the state run it to benefit themselves. What problem do they have if they kill fifty people who were in jail or prison? So, they have to go find fifty families. Or, more likely, those families come looking for the murder victims. And, quick as a bunny, the people who run the state kill the families, too. If you have no people, you cannot be betrayed, but you also cannot be found.

    The history of the world includes a large number of governments that went out of control, slipped the boundaries of, say, the constitutions of those countries, and massacred a lot of people. In every single one of those countries, people said, “It isn’t happening.” And they said, “It couldn’t happen here.”

    And they were wrong. And if you say it isn’t happening here, and it couldn’t happen here, how do you know?

    Show me the bodies? Yep. Show them to me. But, folks, take your time. It is dangerous work confronting the men and women who run the state with evidence of their brutality.

  103. hmb0630

    If the morgue in Carville LA closed only 10 weeks after Katrina, please explain to me WHERE I WORKED until after the first of January 2006??? Apparently people need to check their facts. That morgue remained open until after I left my rotation there in March of 2006.

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