Manger suggests Palin as 2012 ‘libertarian’ presidential candidate

In an essay at NolanChart.com, economist and libertarian writer Phil Manger suggests former Alaska governor Sarah Palin as a presidential candidate for 2012 with possible appeal to libertarians. In the lengthy piece, Manger says Palin should be considered in part because she “resonates with Middle Americans”, is “libertarian on the issues that matter most”, “people pay attention to what she says”, she “is a true ‘Teflon candidate'” who survives media criticism, and because “Ron Paul is not available”. (On this final point, Manger notes that the Texas congressman will be 77 at the time of the next presidential inauguration, and “lacks Palin’s charisma and political instincts.”)

On the minus side, Manger says Palin is “a little too close to the neocons”, “her views on civil liberties” remain unclear, and “Palin may not want to be president”. Manger concludes, “Weighing all the relevant factors — including the inability of libertarians to agree on an effective political strategy,” Palin “is looking pretty good. She’s certainly got the right idea about the economy. As for the rest, we’ll just have to see.”

Post updated with corrections.

211 thoughts on “Manger suggests Palin as 2012 ‘libertarian’ presidential candidate

  1. George Phillies

    As a general statement, people who advocate that the Libertarian Party should run a “famous” candidate with little connection to our party should be recognized as enemies of our party who want to repeat the great damage that has been done to our party in the past with this strategy.

    The list of these people begins with Bill Redpath, arguably the worst chair in the history of our party, and Wayne Root, who recruited Barr as our Presidential candidate and handed the nomination over with his endorsement, the people who gave us the Bob Barr non-campaign that did almost nothing except raise money and hand it over to Barr’s cronies, other Republicans with no connection to our party.

  2. Mik Robertson

    Root recruited Barr as a Presidential Candidate? Weren’t they both contestants for the nomination?

  3. Aroundtheblockafewtimes

    Redpath the worst? He held many positions of authority within the Party for a long-time, so it’s not like the delegates had no idea what they were getting. I guess delegates are just fickle. Wasn’t Chairman Turney subsequently removed even after he was re-elected Chair by the delegates in Phoenix?

  4. Gene Trosper

    This is what the LP is up against constantly: what the public views as “libertarian” is much different from how we generally see it. To the public, all a politician has to do is show a tad more independent thinking and a smidgen more criticism of government and viola! That makes a libertarian. To use the Wall Street Journal as a barometer of Palin’s so-called “libertarianism” seems laughable to me, considering their consistently pro-state, pro-war stance. They would LOVE it if libertarianism was limited to people like Sarah Palin because having more Ron Pauls in office would definitely be problematic for their editorial agenda. That said, if SAarah Palin is indeed moving toward libertarianism, we should encourage her every step of the way and actively engage her. The more she is exposed to libertarianism, the better. As for her being an LP presidential candidate? Not now. I would not even consider it. While she is an attractive candidate (in more ways than one), philosophically, she has a way to travel. Who knows? Maybe the economy or the war in Afghanistan may radicalize her. All that remains to be seen.

  5. Phil Manger

    Just to clarify things…I am a libertarian, not a Libertarian. I have not been active in the Libertarian Party for nearly three decades. Nowhere in my article did I suggest that Palin run as the Libertarian Party candidate. That would surely doom her candidacy, and probably the candidate, to obscurity, because the Libertarian Party has become irrelevant.

  6. libertariangirl

    exactly when were we relevant?
    I agree running Palin as an LP cand would doom her campaign.
    In case your unfamiliar with LP ers , we love to debate what ifs amongst ourselves that would never happen in the real world:)
    hence ANY dicussion of Palin as an LP candidate is just such.

  7. Eric Sundwall

    gaaaassssp ! Almost lost my coffee this morning on this. Sooo many levels wrong . . . I’m in for the chair run and the potus chase if there’s real sentiment towards this type of tripe. What’s a few more thousand hours and dollars in order to protect any real notion of liberty in our dear political party. Ugh

    People have to get over the whole fame thing. While I was one who drank the initial kool-aid on Weld at the 2006 LPNY convention (I missed the whole Stern thing in 94), I knew he would be trouble. He couldn’t win the Conservatives, and he played the LPNY like country rubes. Believe me, I know the rube type.

    I would counter George, in so much as those looking for fame candidates are not inherently enemies, so much as gullible. That of course, is what makes politics so tempting for most. It may also translate into a situation that breeds contempt and hostility amongst future meaningful participation. Shrug.

    Accept the fact that third parties don’t win. Resolve to fight the good fight. Rinse, lather, rinse.

    Otherwise go make some new buddies in the big party and win hearts and minds through deceit and subterfuge. Don’t accept that as meaningless behavior and die well compensated with no conscience. At least you’ll die a winner, right ?

  8. robert capozzi

    Palin teflon? More like radioactive.

    Paul, Barr, Weld and Stern…all valid experiments, IMO.

  9. Geno Canto del Halcon

    If Sarah Palin is a “libertarian” than I have no idea what I am, but it fails to even remotely resemble whatever it is that Sarah Palin is. Plain and simple: I believe in the non-agression principle, and Sarah Palin clearly doesn’t.

  10. WAYNE 2012

    I will add to the other post as well. WAYNE DID NOT ENDORSE BARR. BARR BEAT WAYNE BECA– USE the so called people Voted BARR in rather than Wayne, well we saw the results.
    I am behind Wayne, he is breaking the barrier for the libertarian party where no one else has. He is exposing the libertarian party succeeding more than any other libertarian. Wayne is doing the hard work that should have been done YEARS AGO in terms of creating public awareness of the libertarian party as a viable and legitimate alternative to the two socialist dominate parties (or is it one party with two heads?).

  11. libertariangirl

    GP_and Wayne Root, who recruited Barr as our Presidential candidate and handed the nomination over with his endorsement, the people who gave us the Bob Barr

    me_ theres no such thing as ANYONE handing the nomination to anyone else. its offensive to the delegates intelligence. Every delegate there made up their own mind on every vote . They (we) are not commodities being passed around from one candidate to another.
    Barr won for 1 simple reason , the majority of delegates voted for him .
    period.

  12. Robert Milnes

    Once again I agree with Prof. Phillies. Enemies may be a strong word but so what? Made the point. lg@ 13,”Its(sp) offensive to the delegates(sp) intelligence.” Come on. It is politics. There is no need to idealize the delegates. –

  13. Robert Milnes

    “Weighing all the relevent factors-including the inability of libertarians to agree on an effective political strategy…” Hey, what about The Progressive Libertarian Alliance Strategy?

  14. Stewart Flood

    There are several things wrong here. The title of the original essay is “Sarah Palin: A candidate for libertarians?” The title here on IPR is “Manger suggests Palin as 2012 ‘libertarian’ presidential candidate”

    There is nothing in that essay that says Ms Palin would be the candidate of the Libertarian Party. The author never identified her as anything other than a Republican that we “might” agree with.

    While some people consider her attractive, that’s about all she has to work with. Speaking from notes for ninety minutes? I wonder if she took questions after her speech. If so, how would she answer without a coach? Maybe she wore an ear-piece similar to the one that former President Bush (the younger) wore during the debates in 2004.

    But from the absurd to the ridiculous:

    Once again, Dr Phillies confuses what really happened with how he wants to others remember things. Wayne Root did not recruit Bob Barr to seek our nomination. That assertion is insane.

    Dr Phillies knows quite well the circumstances that resulted in two groups of Libertarians, sitting at adjoining tables in the hotel bar at the LSLA in 2008, to simultaneously encourage Dr Ruwart and Mr Barr to run.

    Bob Barr was sitting at one table, with several of us asking him to run, while other Libertarians at the next table were on the phone trying to get Dr Ruwart to run. I’m not sure if they were talking to Dr Ruwart directly, but the nature of the conversation was clear.

    Mr Root obviously did not want either of these candidates in the race. I would guess that Dr Phillies would not have wanted them in the race either.

  15. clevelandkid83

    palin a libertarian??
    thats crazy
    she is against allowing raped women the morning after pill, she believes in praying away homosexuality!
    sorry those are NOT libertarian values
    she makes bush look like a moderate on social issues!

  16. Robert Milnes

    Manger, are you crazy? Bad enough Bann Bobb Barr. Then Root takes up the fool’s paradise baton. All this after the Ron Paul counterrevolutionary fiasco. Now Palin? Are you crazy?

  17. Robert Milnes

    Libertarians do not need to “resonate with middle Americans…”. We can beat them at their own game by vote coordination with the progressives. Plurality victory 40% Alliance, 30% republicans, 30% democrats.

  18. Robert Milnes

    I voted for Sarah Palin for vp in 2008. But that was upon consideration of the actual choices I had actually on the ballot of the state of my vote registration (NJ). I deeply resented how Obama duped the progressives into supporting him-TOM HAYDEN RAISE YOUR HAND. I couldn’t stomach Barr. Nader or Mckinney as protest or statement vote. Lesser of 2 evils=McCain/Palin. We need to get a viable progressive/libertarian fusion ticket on all or most ballots as a viable third choice on election day. Let’s not START with an absolutely awful choice from the beginning! Bad enough to end up with it after all that work & time & energy & money etc.

  19. robert capozzi

    hmm, I’da thunk most Ls would be politically neutral on the use — or non-use — of prayer for anything.

  20. Brian Holtz

    [Since this urban legend about Root has been repeated on two threads, I’m giving the same answer on both.]

    George, in what universe could Barr not have beaten Ruwart on the last ballot without the pro-forma and fore-ordained endorsement that Root delivered? Did you seriously expect Root and his supporters to have no clear preference between Barr and Ruwart? I bet you cannot find even one Root voter on the penultimate ballot who would say that Root’s endorsement swung his vote from Ruwart to Barr. Root’s endorsement speechlet was completely unmemorable to me, and I’d love to know what kind of a Ruwart supporter it could have transmogrified into a Barr supporter.

    This urban legend — of Root taking the nomination from Ruwart and handing it to Barr — is obviously more about spin for 2012 than it is about the facts of 2008.

    As I wrote the day after the convention: It was mathematically obvious from the second ballot onward that the only way to stop Barr would be for Ruwart to endorse Root. Chuck Moulton and I were sitting together speculating when it would happen, but it never did. Barr would have never accepted a V.P. spot, so a Ruwart endorsement would have guaranteed either a Root/Ruwart ticket or a Root/Kubby ticket (depending on whether Mary wanted the veep slot). Those would have been my preferred tickets, but Ruwart’s insistence Sunday on a doomed last stand did more in three hours to make the LP potentially “Republican lite” than the Reform Caucus did in three years. I hope Ruwart wasn’t more interested in remaining the standard-bearer of anarcholibertarian purity than she was in the LP remaining the standard-bearer of political libertarianism. Since our nominating process is like a microcosm of America’s electoral system, this is an ironic little lesson about how keeping one’s hands spotless is not always the choice that best serves the cause of liberty.

  21. Steven R Linnabary

    This whole conversation reminds me of one I had with a democrat back in 2004 when I questioned why they nominated somebody like Kerry. He responded with “well, he isn’t MY first choice either, but we did it to attract republicans. Afterall, he IS an admitted war criminal”!

    Which just proves that democrats don’t understand republicans anymore than republicans understand Libertarians.

    PEACE

  22. Michael Seebeck

    WAYNE 2102 @12:

    WAYNE DID NOT ENDORSE BARR. BARR BEAT WAYNE BECA– USE the so called people Voted BARR in rather than Wayne, well we saw the results.

    Bullshit. Were you at the convention? I sure was, and when Root got axed in the second-to-final voting round, he endorsed Barr from the podium, plain as day, all over C-SPAN, at the time he threw in his hat for VP. Sure, the delegates, who were stacked for Barr just enough, got him the nomination on the next vote, but the stackers would have voted for Barr if he was running for Director of Auschwitz.

    As for Palin, sure she’s attractive, in a “dominatrix librarian who desperately needs a makeover, LASIK, speech therapist, psychological counseling, and political education” sort of way. IOW, Hillary Clinton with dark hair and glasses.

    What you are seeing right now in the conservative world is they are reverting to type, giving their usual predictable lip service to the libertarian ideals of limited government etc. in opposition to Obama, but the words to them are empty and only there for political points and nothing more. You can hear the same stuff on Limbaugh right now if you want, but the moment they get another big government GOP guy perceived as popular and electable, they change their tune back to big government conservatism and the religious reich. We saw this in the 90s with Clinton, and here we are again.

  23. citizen1

    Palin had to sell out her state to the North American Union to get on the ballot as Rep VP. Prior to that she had some credibility with libertarians and constitutionalists. She can no longer be trusted by anyone who is not a globalist.

  24. Gene Berkman

    I have long favored a strategy that includes building The Libertarian Party by running serious (if not electable) candidates for Congress and State Legislature, while at the same time getting involved in campaigns for Republicans who are really for limited government (Ron Paul, Tom McClintock) or antiwar Democrats (Howard Dean in 2004)

    Go ahead attack me for it, Tom. You know who you are.

    But someone who thinks Sarah Palin would be attractive to libertarian voters is – as Eric Sundwall pointed out – naive. I prefer the term Airhead in this case.

  25. Ross Levin

    She’s Libertarian where it counts – the wars in the Middle East, overseas military bases, oil and corn subsidies, gay marriage, abortion… oh, wait.

  26. HumbleTravis

    Will Sarah Palin stand up for my property rights or will she utilize eminent domain as she did in Wasilla?

    Gary Johnson, the former Governor of New Mexico mentioned by Peter Orvetti, is a MUCH better choice.

  27. robert capozzi

    Is it just me getting older, or are Rs and Ds getting lamer and lamer as the years roll by?

    Palin was so not-ready-for-primetime, a Hail Mary if ever there was one. Biden says something really stupid at least 2x a month.

  28. Ross Levin

    I think Biden’s more honest than the average politican, but intelligent, even if he does some pretty corporatist, immoral things.

    Palin just seems to be stupid. I’ve thought about it a bit and I can’t think of a better explanation. She just doesn’t seem to have any common sense. And she might be honest, but at this point it’s not a good thing…

  29. George Phillies

    Apparently my parallelism didn’t work adequately well.

    “The list of these people begins with Bill Redpath, arguably the worst chair in the history of our party, and Wayne Root, [THE TWO MEN who recruited Barr as our Presidential candidate and handed the nomination over with AN endorsement, RESPECTIVELY, the people who gave us the Bob Barr non-campaign that did almost nothing except raise money and hand it over to Barr’s cronies, other Republicans with no connection to our party.

  30. George Phillies

    Wayne endorsed Barr. From the Podium. As Part of a deal for Barr’s endorsement of Root in 2012 — a deal negotiated live on national television.

    The assertion that Root’s endorsement was not effective means that he switched fewer than a few dozen votes toward Barr. That claim might be true, but it suggests that he is a remarkably lame political persuader if it is true.

    In my opinion, Root moved enough votes toward Barr that Barr won.

  31. Brian Holtz

    George, an attempt at political persuasion is “lame” only with respect to what was possible to achieve in the first place. I voted for you on the first ballot, but I assure you that nothing you could have said or done could have influenced my subsequent voting strategy. Again, if you can’t name a single Root-to-Barr voter who we even suspect was persuaded by Root not to vote for Ruwart, then your hypothesis seems unpersuasive.

    To evaluate your claim of money to Barr cronies, I’d want to know how much money was raised by recent LP POTUS nominees, and how much of their spending could be similarly criticized. Even better if we had data from the 2008 Nader campaign. In general, though, I share your concern that far too little of our dues and contributions to the LP and its presidential candidates flows through to actual political outreach.

  32. LibertarianBlue

    As I said in the comments of the actual article, if many Libertarians were skeptical of Barr and rightfully so why should we suddenly embrace Palin?

    Palin like alot of Republicans including Beck are ratcheting up the Libertarian rhetoric but I would bet money that its all just to get votes. If there is a Republican that should get Libertarian support its Gary Johnson.

  33. Eric Dondero

    It is utterly amazing how ignorant you all are here of Palin’s past connections to the Libertarian Party.

    You act as though she’s got this newfound “conversion,” to libertarianism, and that she’s some sort of new fellow travler to the Libertarian Party itself.

    Her husband was a member of the Alaska Independence Party going back two decades. Need I remind you all, that the AIP was FOUNDED BY EX-LIBERTARIAN PARTY MEMBERS!!!

    Two of Palin’s top Lts. in her numerous campaigns for Mayor of Wasilla were LIBERTARIANS!!

    Palin has been attending Libertarian Party meetings for at least a decade.

    In fact, in 2006, she was slammed by her Frank Murkowski/social conservative opponents in the GOP primary who spread the rumore that “Sarah is really not a Republican… She’s a closeted Libertarian.”

    And Palin didn’t do anything to halt those rumors. In fact, she flamed them, by continuing to attend Rob Clift’s famous Libertarian Supper Club meetings at the Denny’s on North Star in Anchorage every Wed. night.

    You people are utterly cluless as to Palin’s background. Why don’t you talk to the folks in the Alaska Libertarian Party before you start spouting off your nonsense, that she’s “just a newcommer.”

    (Sidenote – I spent 3 months up in Alaska working for the Libertarian Party in 2006.)

  34. libertariangirl

    I could , but I would be a bad choice . Im more a behinds the scene activist . although, I have run for State Assembly twice.

    its probably a given the LPNevada will nominate Jim Burns for the position , as he has been campaigning and has a website and all.
    recently Jim Duensing expressed interest in running as well.

  35. Eric Dondero

    As for Sarah running as the Libertarian Party nominee for 2012, I’m sure she realizes that doing so would lose her a great deal of support amongst Republicans, even hardcore libertarian Republicans.

    Many more people would support her as a n explicit Libertarian running within the GOP for the Republican nomination. And I’m sure that’s exactly what she intends to do.

    Now if the Libertarian Party would like to nominate her and allow her to appear on the ballot as both a Republican and a Libertarian in 50 states, I don’t see anything wrong with that strategy.

    But strictly as Libertarian candidate, would be the kiss of death for Sarah Palin in 2012.

  36. Gene Berkman

    ED – take some valerian and calm down.

    Whatever rhetoric Sarah Palin may have employed years ago, her record is clearly one of support for too much government, too many subsidies and too much war.

  37. libertariangirl

    GP_In my opinion, Root moved enough votes toward Barr that Barr won.

    me_ who’s to say Roots delegates wouldnt have voted for Barr even if Wayne didnt endorse him?

  38. Richard Winger

    It is not true that the Alaskan Independence Party was founded by ex-Libertarian Party members. The Alaskan Independence Party was founded by Joe Vogler in 1973, before there were any ex-Libertarian Party members in Alaska or hardly any other state. Vogler and the Alaskan Independence Party first appeared on the ballot in 1974, whereas no Alaska Libertarian was on the ballot for any office, partisan or non-partisan, until 1975, when Jill Rodgers ran for Anchorage Municipal Assembly. Joe Vogler was motivated by an extreme hatred for the United States, so deep that he told people while he was alive that he wanted to be buried in Canada.

  39. Eric Dondero

    You know it’s funny to see my friend George Phillies slam Bob Barr every chance he gets, even with nutty conspiracy theories that he somehow “stole” the nomination with Root’s help.

    Here’s a cold hard fact that’s very hard to escape for any Bob Barr critic:

    There have been a total of 9 Libertarian Party Presidential efforts since John Hospers first ran in 1972.

    Out of 9, Bob Barr’s campaign was the second best winning 525,000 votes, and appearing on the ballot in 46 jurisdictions.

    525,000 votes.

    Let me repeat that: 525,000 votes.

    And in case some of you may be hard of hearing or mathematically challenged:

    Five Hundred and Twenty Five Thousand votes.

    That’s a significant improvement over Badnarik’s Bad vote of 393,000 votes in 2004, even better than Harry Brown, and better than my old boss Ron Paul who got 425,000 in 1988.

    My hats off to Bob Barr and the entire Bob Barr for President team. Not quite Ed Clark, but damned good anyway!

  40. robert capozzi

    It’s no surprise Palin has some association with Ls. The First Dude being involved with separatists scores no points with me — demerits, if anything.

  41. Eric Dondero

    Richard Winger is of course, dead wrong. I’ve spent a great deal of time in Alaska, on three different occasions, each time working for the Libertarian Party, first in 1988, again in 2003, and again in 2006.

    I even spent one day crawling up into a crawl space of an ex-Libertarian Party member in Anchorage to get a treasure full of old Libertarian Party of Alaska documents, brochures and newsletters back in 1988 when the Party was essentially defunct, except for two people Eugene ??? and Lenn Karpinski.

    I would challenge ANYONE with the sole exception of Scott Kohlhaas to go up against my superior knowledge of the history of the Libertarian Party of Alaska.

    And I have a mountain full of archives for the LPA in my garage.

    Winger says the AIP was founded by Joe Vogler. Yupper! Winger is right.

    But guess what?

    JOE VOGLER WAS A MEMBER OF THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY BEFORE HE FOUNDED THE AIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Winger is showing his extreme dumb-assness by not knowing this little fact.

    Vogler was joined by other LPers to found the AIP, after an incident where the State Party actually got sued by the State for a raffle gone bad.

    This was 1982/83/84 or thereabouts.

    The LPA tried to raffle off a seaplane. Well, the winner wanted his money back or something. It was a huge mess. Bottom line: Just about all members of the LPA scattered into the “wilderness” literally, cause nobody wanted to be liable for it, and have to pay the State fine.

    It was around this time that Vogler and other LPAers figured on the Alaska Independence Party idea, a way for them to still run Libertarian candidates, but not be liable for the seaplane disaster.

    And now here we are three decades later, and the seaplan deal as well as the founding of the AIP are all distant memories, so much so in fact, that a supposed “Third Party expert” like Richie Winger doesn’t know a damned thing about it.

  42. Eric Dondero

    I believe, but will take some time digging through my old issues of LP News, that Joe Vogler was even a candidate for some statewide office for the Libertarian Party in the early 1980s. I remember huge articles about the LPA in LP News, and specifically remember seeing Vogler’s photo.

    What Winger, who I don’t believe has ever even set foot in Alaska, doesn’t seem to understand is that the AIP and the LP have been virtually the same organization for decades.

    Even more recently, Kohlhaas cut a deal with the AIP back in 2004, (may have been 2002?), where the candidates would not run candidates opposed to each other.

    (Boy I didn’t express that well).

    I mean to say, the LP agreed to keep candidates off the ballot where there were AIP candidates and vice-versa.

    I think Kolhaas himself even flirted with running for Gov. on the AIP ticket a few years back, when the LP was going through another one of its “virtually extinct” in Alaska phases.

    Bottom line:

    The Alaska Independence Party is the Libertarian Party and vice versa. There’s virtually no difference.

    So, Todd Palin being a dues paying member of the AIP, means that there’s little doubt that at some point he was also an LP member, and at the very least had attended a few LP meeetings here and there.

  43. Eric Dondero

    Hey Berkman don’t you dare say that Sarah Palin “supports too much War,” and try to play that off as somehow “unlibertarian.”

    Yoh you hippie America-hating bastard, being a Libertarian does not mean that you have to suck Saddam Hussein’s dick, or chummy up to Al Qaeda.

    Here’s a newsflash:

    THE VERY FIRST LIBERTARIAN PARTY PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE WAS DR. JOHN HOSPERS WHO WAS ALSO A CO-FOUNDER OF THE HAWKISH LIBERTARIAN DEFENSE CAUCUS, AND A DIEHARD GEORGE BUSH FOR PRESIDENT SUPPORT IN 2004.

    Hospers single-handidly kept the Anti-War/American-hating “Libertarians” from taking over the Party for years after his nomination in 1972.

    Unfortunately in 1974/75 he was finally defeated.

    But the fact remains: THE ORIGINAL LIBERTARIAN PARTY FROM 1971 TO AT LEAST 1974 WAS PRO-AMERICA AND PRO-DEFENSE.

  44. Ayn R. Key

    Gene @ 47

    Don’t you realize that pro-big government is Dondero’s definition of “true libertarianism” ™ ? He’s even said that the “true libertarian” ™ position is to support the USAPATRIOT Act.

  45. Eric Dondero

    Hmmn, lets see now. Can someone please explain to me, how it is “libertarian,” to allow illegal aliens from Saudi Arabia, Jordon, Egypt, Pakistan and other Middle Eastern countries who have overstayed their “Student Visas,” the ability to access taxpayer-subsidized computers at taxpayer-subsidizes public libraries, in order that they may download plans from Al Qaeda-linked websites for dirty bombs and bombs to blow up football stadiums, is in any way “libertarian”???

    Can anyone say…

    Zazi Najibullah?

  46. George Phillies

    @50

    Dear Eric,

    He didn’t “steal” the nomination, he earned it the American way by making deals with his opponents, or trying to.

    First he offered Mary Ruwart the VP position. We know this because the bargaining was on live national television. Then he offered Root the VP position, and Root took it, in exchange for Barr’s promise to support Root for the Presidential nomination in 2012. Root accepted the deal in public and kept his half of the deal. After losing himself, he gave a vigorous speech in support of Barr’s nomination.

    With respect to my slamming the Republican War Crimes Party, I expect to continue to do so on a regular basis, interspersed with attacks on the Democratic War Crimes Party, now that Afghanistan is Obama’s war.

    A good current ad:
    Voice Picture
    Obama! Obama, looking cheery
    Obama! Obama, again looking cheery
    You murdered one of those corpse photos the mainstream media won’t touch

    Her Mama! The bloodsmeared little girl wailing over the corpse of her dead mother.

    Though for the older generation tehre is always the improved chant

    Ho, Ho
    BHO!
    How many kids
    did you kill today?

  47. George Phillies

    @38

    I already wrote an entire BOOK answering your question, for Browne 1996 and Browne 2000.

    Note, however, that Browne’s money mostly went to Libertarians, and Browne actually did *some* advertising.

    Barr did virtually zero. It was a sham campaign.

  48. Solomon Drek

    To Eric Dondero@58: “Can someone please explain to me, how it is “libertarian,” to allow illegal aliens from Saudi Arabia, Jordon, Egypt, Pakistan and other Middle Eastern countries”

    Anybody who does not support the unrestricted freedom of movement of capital, goods, services, and labor in a free and open global economy is no libertarian, IMHO. Only a statist, limited or otherwise, would advocate anything else.

    In a true libertarian society there would be no such classification as “illegal alien”. Anyone who believes there is should be in the Constitution Party, or the paleoconservative wing of the Republican Party.

    Of course there are GOP paleocons who are charged by GOP leaders to destroy the LP by trying to convince LP members that they would be better off in the GOP so the latter won’t have any competition for conservative votes in general elections. Gee, I wonder who they are.

    Eric Dondero@58: “Can anyone say…

    Zazi Najibullah?”

    Can anti-immigrant paleocons say…

    Timothy McVeigh?

  49. Eric Dondero

    My dear George, I noticed you failed to address my main point, which was Bob Barr’s vote total.

    Go ahead, I’m waiting. Give me your best shot.

    What’s your spin on the 2nd highest vote total for the Libertarian Party of all time?

    Placing 2 out of 9 from 1972 to 2008.

    Please explain Georgie-pooh, how is that a bad showing?

    He’s not Ed Clark, I’ll admit that. But he’s the closest anyone in the LP has ever come.

  50. Thomas L. Knapp

    “Out of 9, Bob Barr’s campaign was the second best winning 525,000 votes”

    The success of a campaign is not measured in the number of votes, it’s measured in the percentage of the vote.

    For example, in 2004, John Kerry got 59 million votes. That’s more votes than Ronald Reagan got in 1980 or 1984, than George HW Bush got in 1988, than Bill Clinton got in 1992 or 1996, and than George W. Bush got in 2000.

    Was John Kerry’s losingcampaign “better” than all of those winning campaigns? No, it wasn’t. He LOST.

    As a percentage of the vote, i.e. as a measure of how close he came to actually winning the election, Bob Barr came in fourth, not second, of the LP’s nine presidential candidates.

  51. Eric Dondero

    Solo-man, you mean Timothy McVeigh, the guy who was on Saddam Hussein’s payroll?

    Yeah, I’ll be glad to say “Timothy McVeigh.” So long as it goes along with “Anti-American Islamo-Fascist supporter, stooge of Iraqi Intelligence.”

  52. Eric Dondero

    Wrong Knapp.

    I’ve been involved with the Libetarian Party since the early 1980s. I’m an “Ed Clark Baby,” having joined the LP cause of Clark’s 1980 campaign.

    I have never, ever heard anyone say, “Golly gee, did you know that Ed Clark got 1.1% of the vote…”

    No! Everybody always says, “Wow, did you know that Ed Clark got 1 million votes for the Libertarian Party in 1980.”

    Percentages are boooooooring! It’s the vote count that counts – pun intended.

  53. Eric Dondero

    Solo-mon Dredelocks dude,

    What you describe is Anarchism. No borders, no sovereignty is barely a distant wing of the broader libertarian movement.

    I dare say if you took a poll of libertarians, perhaps about 1% would favor what you describe – essentially abolishing the United States of America as an entity.

    Use correct language. You’re and Anarchist, no necessarily a libertarian.

  54. Thomas L. Knapp

    For those who don’t follow Mr. Dondero’s fantasies, closely, he’s talking about Jayna Davis’s book The Third Terrorist, in which she asserts that Iraqi intelligence must have been behind the Oklahoma City bombing.

    Her evidence for the claim is that an Iraqi immigrant, who was employed locally by an Israeli landlord, apparently ran around town randomly glowering at people during the same timeframe as the bombing.

    The book’s a real howler, starting with the introduction, in which former CIA director James Woolsey asserts that when he turned on the TV and saw the (1995) OKC wreckage, it instantly brought the (1996) Khobar Towers bombing to mind.

  55. Thomas L. Knapp

    Yes, Eric, I understand — you want what you want, and if the facts get in the way you’ll either ignore them or make up new facts that sound better.

    As of mid-to-late 2008, you asserted that the criterion of success — the ONLY criterion of success — for the Barr campaign was whether or not he outpolled Ed Clark’s 1980 performance. As soon as he bombed out and turned in a 4th-place-in-the-LP’s-history performance, you re-defined your criterion.

    Nice trick, when you can get away with it. But you can’t get away with it around me.

  56. Muskingum Libertarians

    What we need to do is unite the Party and agree that we can’t make the country better if we are fighting each other. Who do we dislike more each other or the Parties that are taking away our freedoms and raising our taxes. If we don’t unite and make the Libertarian Party stronger we will always fail. We need to learn from the old say “United we Stand, Divided we fall” and friends we have fallen a lot because we want to fight amongst ourselves. No Party, not even the Republicans will carry our beliefs. The Libertarian Party will carry on the real idea of being a libertarian.

  57. Richard Winger

    I am looking at my Sample General Election Ballot from Alaska for November 5, 1974. It says, for Governor, there are 3 candidates: William Egan for the Democrats, Jay Hammond for the Republicans, and Joe Vogler for the Alaska Independence Party (apparently when the party was first formed, it was “Alaska Independence”, not “Alaskan Independence”.

    So, Eric Dondero, do you still doubt that the Alaskan Independence Party was formed by the 1974 election? And, yes, I have been to Alaska twice, and no, Joe Vogler never ran for office as a Libertarian, and furthermore Dick Randolph and Joe Vogler were bitter enemies.

  58. Solomon Drek

    Eric Dondero@65: “Percentages are boooooooring! It’s the vote count that counts – pun intended.”

    Percentages may be boring, but they decide elections and determine credibility.

    Just like inflation, a million votes today doesn’t buy what a million votes bought a hundred years ago.

  59. VirtualGalt

    Sarah Palin is an empty vessel into which anything can be poured. NeoCon? SoCon? Check. Why not Libertarian?

    She doesn’t even rate as one of Wasilla’s three most interesting people as far as I’m concerned (Levi, Todd and Bristol beat her there).

    Shudder.

  60. Steven R Linnabary

    Can someone please explain to me, how it is “libertarian,” to allow illegal aliens from Saudi Arabia, Jordon, Egypt, Pakistan and other Middle Eastern countries who have overstayed their “Student Visas,” the ability to access taxpayer-subsidized computers at taxpayer-subsidizes public libraries, in order that they may download plans from Al Qaeda-linked websites for dirty bombs and bombs to blow up football stadiums, is in any way “libertarian”???

    No, a LIBERTARIAN would ask why there are “taxpayer-subsidized computers” or even “taxpayer-subsidizes public libraries”.

    PEACE

  61. Eric Dondero

    Well, well, well, guess what news just came over the wires?

    And Islamic Jihadist, follower of Al Qaeda, has just been arrested for attempting to car bomb a major skyscraper in downtown Dallas, Texas.

    Nah, nothing to worry about from Islamic Terrorism here in the US. Let’s just hide our heads in the sand, and pretend that Islamo-Fascism doesn’t really exist.

  62. Eric Dondero

    No Steven, a real libertarian would ask:

    Hey Radical Islamic – dude? What the fuck are you doing in my country to begin with?

    Who the fuck invited you? Go home to your own country, where you can continue to treat women like dogshit, wear bed sheets, and murmer in tongues on your knees five times a day.

  63. Eric Dondero

    Winger, I never said it was Dick Randolph who left the LP and joined the AIP. Actually Randolph left the LP and joined the GOP in 1985.

    Do I doubt that there was some entity for Alaska Independence back in 1974? No.

    That has no bearing on my central point, which is a significant number of Libertarian Party people teamed up with Vogler, I believe in the early 1980s, may have been mid-80s (?) and ran a slate of candidates on the Alaska Independence Party ticket.

    Their motivation, as best as I could tell by old issues of LP News, was the seaplane raffle fiasco.

    Look, I spent two months living in Rob Clift’s basement, with his lovely wife and family, in 2006 in E. Anchorage. Every night when I got home from work, Rob, his wife and I would drink beers and talk mostly Libertarian Party of Alaska history.

    Whether you want to admit it or not, the AIP and the LPA are/were tied at the hip for many, many years.

    And for Todd Palin to be a member of the AIP, there’s no way in hell that he didn’t also have a close relationship all those years with the LP, as well.

  64. Eric Dondero

    Tom Knapp, and why did Bob Barr get only 525,000 votes, versus the 2 to 3 million he was well on his way to garnering?

    Two words:

    SARAH PALIN!

    Ryan Christiano, top staffer for John McCain for President confirmed to me in an email when directly asked 3 months after the campaign ended, that “yes” Sarah Palin was picked largely to appeal to “libertarian voters,” and to ward off Bob Barr.

    Recall Barr was polling 5 to 6% in Zogby way up til late August.

  65. VAGreen

    ‘Can someone please explain to me, how it is “libertarian,” to allow illegal aliens from Saudi Arabia, Jordon, Egypt, Pakistan and other Middle Eastern countries who have overstayed their “Student Visas,” the ability to access taxpayer-subsidized computers at taxpayer-subsidizes public libraries, in order that they may download plans from Al Qaeda-linked websites for dirty bombs and bombs to blow up football stadiums, is in any way “libertarian”???’

    Thank goodness the private sector hasn’t caught on to that whole Internet thing yet, otherwise illegal aliens could get access in hypothetical places with silly names like “Kinko’s” and “Starbucks”. Oh, wait.

  66. Richard Winger

    Joe Vogler and the party he founded, the Alaskan Independence Party, was on the ballot in every Alaska gubernatorial election starting in 1974. Joe himself ran for Governor in 1974, 1978, 1982, and 1986. The Alaskan Independence Party was entitled to its own primary starting in 1983, continuously ever since. It was a separate political party from the Libertarian Party, and the two parties battled each other vigorously in the 1980’s. Vogler was furious that his party was temporarily eclipsed by the Libertarian Party, when the Libertarian Party elected a state legislator in 1978, two state legislators in 1980, and then in 1982 the LP beat the AIP in the gubernatorial race for the first time. As I said earlier, Dick Randolph was the top Libertarian in Alaska and he and Joe Vogler disliked each other very much.

    The AIP got back on top in 1990 when it withdrew its gubernatorial candidate and replaced him with Walter Hickel, who won the election under the AIP label. Then, in 1992, the AIP elected its first state legislator.

  67. Robert Milnes

    ED @74, I just read the AP article about the 2 unrelated arrests. Unrelated except in that they were FBI internet chatroom stings. 2 poor schmucks were targeted & entrapped as far as I can tell. One works at a fish & chicken joint. What would I do without the FBI to entrap-I mean protect-me & my country from Islamo-terrorists?

  68. Tom Blanton

    Can’t we all just get along and support Glenn Beck, a true libertaryan, for the Libertaryan Party nomination for Presidential Candidate in 2012.

    I was thinking Root should be Beck’s running mate, but with the realization that Palin is a true blue Libertaryan, maybe she could run as VP – she has experience doing that.

    After the Beck-Palin Team wins the election, they could have Root as Secretary of the Treasury and Dondero as Secretary of Defense.

    Michael Savage would be a great Libertaryan Immigration Czar and Neal Boortz could run Homeland Security. Barr would be running the CIA and that old cross-dressing Libertaryan Rudy Ghouliani could head up the FBI. Glenn Reynolds as AG.

    Man, nothing but real Libertaryans – none of these Murika-Hatin’ hippy marxist Osama-Huggin’ anarchist fags confusing people with their phony peace and prosperity crap.

  69. Thomas M. Sipos

    Dondi: What’s your spin on the 2nd highest vote total for the Libertarian Party of all time?

    Well, Dondi. My “spin” is that Barr/Root got only the fourth highest vote total, percentage wise.

    It’s percentage that matter, not raw totals.

    Why?

    Because the U.S. population is increasing, so vote totals would inevitably increase even if a party did no better from year to year.

  70. Thomas L. Knapp

    Eric,

    You write:

    “Tom Knapp, and why did Bob Barr get only 525,000 votes, versus the 2 to 3 million he was well on his way to garnering?”

    Outside of wishful thinking and dishonest hype, Bob Barr was never “well on his way to garnering” 2 to 3 million votes.

    As of August 2008, before Palin received the VP nomination and before even her biggest supporters thought she WOULD receive it, Barr had raised a little more money, and was polling a smidgen higher, than Badnarik had been at the same point in the 2004 election cycle. By November, he had raised a little more money than Badnarik had raised altogether, and polled a few more votes than Badnarik polled altogether on election day.

    In other words, the detectable/provable “Palin effect” on Barr’s campaign was zero, zip, zilch, nada, bupkis.

  71. Mik Robertson

    Even a 4th highest percentage of the vote for an LP Presidential candidate is impressive considering this was one of the most historic, groundbreaking elections in US history.

    One of the major party presidential nominees was either going to be a “black” man or a woman. It turned out that there was both a “minority” and a woman on the major party tickets. Everyone knew this was going to be a significant election for more than political reasons.

    The rhetoric and the hype caused the major parties to close ranks more than typical, one rallying around a charismatic candidate, the other in opposition. I think the effect was heightened due to a particularly lackluster finish to a presidential administration.

    Had this been an election between an incumbent and some congressman or governor with no significant foreign military diversions, how the alternative candidates fared would have been different.

  72. Thomas M. Sipos

    Had this been an election between an incumbent and some congressman or governor with no significant foreign military diversions, how the alternative candidates fared would have been different.

    This is the LP’s incessant excuse. If only Ross Perot hadn’t run… If only Pat Buchanan or Ralph Nader hadn’t run… If only it weren’t for the ’92 recession… If only it weren’t for the ’96 healthy economy. If only it weren’t for 9/11… If only this, that, or that other.

    There’s always some excuse as to why the LP failed to break double digits, or even sweep the election, which it’s always on the verge of doing, if only this, that, or the other unexpected event hadn’t occured.

    The LP apologists are like Soviet leaders. For decades, the Soviet Union blamed their poor farm production on “unusual weather conditions.”

    I wish LP apologists would stop blaming “unusual election conditions” for the party’s consistently low vote totals.

    Barr promised he’d raise $40 million. Root promised 2 million votes minimum. But once again, “unusual election conditions” intervened and thwarted certain victory.

  73. Aaron Starr

    Tom @ 63

    The Dems and Reps invested a lot of resources these past couple of election cycles in boosting turnout amongst eligible voters who rarely vote. So, if you are going to use percentages, it would be better to use percentage of eligible voting population, rather than percentage of turnout. And even if you use percentage of eligible voting population, you would need to adjust for those states where the LP’s nominees were on the ballot.

    I actually analyzed all the elections going back to 1980 based on that, using data from US Elections Project.

    In 1980 Ed Clark received 921,299 votes. He was on the ballot in all 50 states plus DC and the eligible voting population was 159,635,102. He received 0.58% of the vote.

    In 1984 David Bergland received 228,705 votes. He was on the ballot in 40 states (including DC). The eligible voting population in those states was 125,361,039 (167,701,904 nationwide). He got 0.18% in those states.

    In 1988 Ron Paul received 432,179 votes. He was on the ballot in 47 states (including DC), not getting on the ballot in IN, MO, NC and WV. The eligible voting population in those states was 164,071,681 (173,579,281 nationwide). He got 0.26% in those states.

    In 1992 Andre Marrou received 291,627 votes and was on the ballot in all states (including DC). The eligible voting population was 179,655,523. He got 0.16%.

    In 1996 Harry Browne received 485,798 votes and was on the ballot in all states (including DC). The eligible voting population was 186,347,044. He got 0.26%.

    In 2000 Harry Browne received 384,431 votes and was on the ballot in all states (except for AZ). The eligible voting population in those states was 190,973,735 (194,331,436 nationwide). He got 0.20%.

    In 2004 Michael Badnarik received 397,265 votes and was on the ballot everywhere except for NH and OK. The eligible voting population in those states was 199,806,005 (203,483,455 nationwide). He got 0.20%.

    In 2008 Bob Barr received 523,713 votes and was on the ballot in all but six states (CT, DC, LA, ME, OK, WV). The eligible voting population in those states was 201,753,869 (213,005,467 nationwide). He got 0.26%.

    Personally, I believe that in the case of a Libertarian Party Presidential campaign, the number of votes is a better metric than a percentage of turnout or percentage of eligible voting population.

    No LP candidate is ever going to be given exposure on the same playing field as the Dems and the Reps, so his vote is pretty much limited to those who have heard and agree with his message or more likely by those who simply dislike the major party candidates that year and want to lodge a protest vote. It’s helpful if there are fewer other third party candidates competing for the vote. As well as Ed Clark did in 1980, I believe he would have done better had John Anderson not been on the ballot.

    However, an even better metric than number of votes is the number of new donors who support the party during the Presidential content. That’s far more valuable to us at this stage of our development because after the campaign you can engage people who join the party. You can’t engage people who vote for our candidate because secret ballots prevent us from discovering who they are.

    I do not have data readily available to tell me where Bob Barr would rank according to this metric, but I suspect that Ed Clark would rank #1, followed by Harry Browne and then Bob Barr.

  74. Robert Milnes

    Thomas M. Sipos, agreed. So what is your point? My point is that the LP cannot win. It just does not have the numbers. Ron Paul cannot even win a GOP primary. That is why the LP must resign itself to never win OR to form some sort of coalition/alliance/vote coordination agreement with another bloc. The progressives, who don’t even have a national party. How much more disenfranchised can you get?

  75. Michael H. Wilson

    Aaron there are probably too many variables for us to really measure the outcome. The weather is always one variable that is difficult to consider. If it rains in Boston but a hurricaine hits New Orleans how would Democrats have voted. Then you write; “No LP candidate is ever going to be given exposure on the same playing field as the Dems and the Reps”. So let me ask what is going to keep the LP from trying harder?And why isn’t the LP trying harder?

  76. Brian Holtz

    Thomas, your comments are rescued. Can you provide in-context quotes for these “promises” from Barr and Root?

    Aaron makes an excellent point about normalizing to eligible voters who could have voted for the candidate. Donations are also an interesting metric, but I think vote share is a much more critical one. We’re more likely to move public policy by having the incumbent parties try to co-opt our voters than by them trying to co-opt our donors.

    Note also that Barr polled as high as 6% during the campaign. Badnarik’s best poll was 1.5%, and the highest Browne poll I can find is 1.6%. Similarly, Barr surely achieved many more TV eyeball-minutes than any LP candidate ever had, and not just because there are more eyeball-minutes now than ever before.

  77. Holden

    “As a general statement, people who advocate that the Libertarian Party should run a “famous” candidate with little connection to our party should be recognized as enemies of our party.”

    It’s funny how quickly George Phillies went back on his speech at the 2008 LP National Convention. I think it took a whole of two minutes. If there is anybody that wants to see the downfall of the LP, it’s Phillies. After all, that can be the only explanation for his constant flood of lawsuits and books against the party.

  78. Robert Capozzi

    Percentages of votes — normalized or not — are meaningful when the differences are SIGNIFICANT. Tenths of percentages, folks, are NOT significant.

    A good analyst knows that one metric is not necessarily sufficient for an explanation. There are a host of qualitative differences, and difficult-to-measure quantitative differences. Here’s a few:

    – Number of days between nomination and election day. The Barr campaign had few compared with many historical LP prez campaigns.

    – Number of days between announcement and election days. Again, a low number for Barr.

    – Convention contention. Barr’s nomination was hotly contested by many. The party was arguably more split going into the election. This was NOT the case in 1980, for ex.

    – R, D and other candidates. The Palin selection probably did move L-leaners to McCain. Note that the paleoL, Rockwell crowd even liked her, despite her strong support from neocons like Bill Kristol, whom they despise. The Obama nomination also scared the L-leaners, as Obama “share the wealth” comment tends to agitate and revulse L-leaners, the leave-me-alone voter.

    – Weak economic conditions, which dampens charitable giving, which the LP is until it starts to challenge in a meaningful way. Contrast that with POLITICAL giving, which many view as an investment.

    Then there’s general conditions. The McCain camp, for ex., notes that they were neck-and-neck UNTIL Wall St. started plummeting in Sept-Oct. That was beyond their control.

    Similarly, there were things beyond the Barr campaign’s control. Palin vs. say Romney, for ex. Joe the Plumber. The short cycle they inherited. The split party. The question about Ron Paul a few short months before the convention. Ron Paul’s staying in the GOP primaries late.

    Some things WERE in the Barr campaign’s control. Overstaffing. Underfundraising. Clinging to his DOMA position, which alienated a significant portion of the L base.

    In the end, his vote counts were another in a series of sub 1% results. His media impressions were strong by L standards.

    Politics is more art than science. Some people might consider dusting off their statistics books and read up on “observations” and “statistical significance.” Careening into the weeds with one (insignificant) metric is contra-indicated.

  79. Eric Dondero

    Knapp is also counting in all the illegal aliens, inelligible voters signed up by ACORN, multiple voting by ACORNers, and the Mickey Mouses & Donald Ducks signed up by ACORN.

    The total phony vote for Obama for the 2008 election could be in the millions.

    If you extract those illegal ballots, ther perecentage of votes comes down significantly.

    Though, Knapp, being the Lefty that he is, is all in favor of fraudulant elections so long as it benefits his buddy Democrats.

  80. Eric Dondero

    The Palin selection moved voters the very last two days of the election.

    Note the significant amount of Libertarian leaders like Tom Knapp’s friend Vin Suprynowski who issued calls in editorials and on blogs calling on all Libertarian Party members who were planning to vote for Barr, to
    PLEASE! vote for McCain/Palin to save the country from Obamu-nist.

    I just ran an article at Libertarian Republican last weekend about a blogger who said he was all set to vote for Barr, but decided on McCain after Palin was picked.

    Funny, though Knapp posts all over my blog, frequently, he completely ignored that piece.

  81. Eric Dondero

    Incidentally, I claim credit partly for that very last minute swing to McCain from Libertarians.

    I was asked by a very HUGE! behind-the-scenes news site editor to draft a last minute appeal to Libertarian Party members to vote Republican. I did.

    He sent it out to hundreds of news sites, including 5 huge ones with hundreds of thousands of hits a day.

    He estimated the piece was viewed by 3 to 5 million.

  82. JT

    Wow, this thread has received 100 posts? That’s amazing, given that the idea of Sarah Palin running for the LP presidential nomination is ridiculous. Now that she’s famous in the GOP, she wants the LP as much as the prom queen wants the fat band geek. And many in the LP don’t want her either.

    Of course, many posts had nothing to do with that. They ask which metric is a better measure of LP presidential success. Answer: It doesn’t make any difference. To any objective observer, every LP presidential nominee has had a pitifully small showing in the election. The argument would be comical if it wasn’t so sad.

  83. George Phillies

    Holden writes of me “…his constant flood of lawsuits against the party…”

    The only lawsuit in which I am current involved is the one where I (through LPMass) ask the court to put Barr on the Massachusetts ballot last year.

    However, reality has never been a strong point of my critics. Actually, it has never been a point, period.

  84. Aroundtheblockafewtimes

    Ditto Capozzi #100. I know several disappointed Hillary supporters who were considering McCain until he picked the inexperienced doofus as a running mate. I know zero libertarians who went for McCain because of Palin. I also know a number of voters who were considering Barr who jumped to McCain because “the election was too close.” I’d guess that Libertarian candidates lose at least half their potential votes when the prodigal voter actually steps up to the voting machine.

  85. robert capozzi

    around, that would be interesting data…which candidate would you vote for if you were unconcerned with the outcome.

    Based on the early polling and strong media coverage, Barr might have done very well with this metric. Rather than a negative, we could interpret that as a positive. The brand was built more than in the past.

    This is a marathon, folks.

  86. libertariangirl

    ED__Note the significant amount of Libertarian leaders like Tom Knapp’s friend Vin Suprynowski who issued calls in editorials and on blogs calling on all Libertarian Party members who were planning to vote for Barr, to
    PLEASE! vote for McCain/Palin

    me_ its Suprynowitz and fuck him for doing that. He’s positively useless when it comes to helping the LP. He’s never done dick for us here in NV , and is a Libertarian in name only.

  87. Aroundtheblockafewtimes

    Mr. Capozzi, I believe my one vote wouldn’t change the election in my state. Nor would it matter to the LP. However, doubling or tripling the vote for the LP nationwide would have a far better effect than getting 1,000,000 more for McCain would have.

  88. Michael H. Wilson

    LG Vin may not be your cup of tea, but as far as I am concerned he’s at the top of the list of Libertarians anywhere.

    A few years ago he came to Portland to speak to a group and one of our guys managed to get him to comeover and speak to our local Portland LP group. I was dead ass sick with the flu, or some such, but Vin gave one of the best, if not the best speech I have ever heard from any Libertarian. I would have loved to stay around and talked to him that evening but as sick as I was it was not a good idea. He’s tops in my book any day of the week.

  89. Thomas L. Knapp

    Aaron @ 63,

    Thanks for the detailed analysis of votes vs. eligible voters. It makes a lot of sense. Back to that in a minute.

    Brian,

    You write:

    “Note also that Barr polled as high as 6% during the campaign. Badnarik’s best poll was 1.5%,”

    I’m not sure where you got that number. Rasmussen polled New Mexico for the Badnarik campaign in August of 2004, and he polled at 5% twice, two weeks apart, before and after a campaign swing through and ad blitz in the state (the cross-tabs changed considerably, though).

    I’m unaware of any nationwide scientific polling done during that time period which included Badnarik. Barr’s nationwide polling four years later tracked reasonably closely to Badnarik’s. So did his fundraising. And three months later, so did his vote totals.

    In other words, I’m just not seeing any evidence for Dondero’s claim that Barr was magically set to poll millions of votes and then got derailed by the Palin VP nomination. If anyone has any evidence, apart from wishful thinking, to support the claim I’d like to see it.

    The fact is that at least one member of the Barr/Root 2008 campaign team was saying, only days before the election, that Barr was still set to poll 2-3 million votes. That team member was Wayne Allyn Root, oddsmaker extraordinaire.

    Now, back to Aaron’s analysis: It supports my contention that Barr was a “middle of the pack,” rather than leading, LP presidential candidate.

    By my conventional vote percentage analysis, he was the fourth best performer. By Aaron’s “percentage of ELIGIBLE voters” analysis, he was in a “2nd place cluster,” clearly behind Clark but not clearly ahead of Browne ’96 or Paul ’88.

    While I do have reasons for slamming the Barr/Root campaign, I don’t consider this a major one.

    Yes, I expected and predicted 700k votes for Barr/Root 2008 and they didn’t make that mark, but the reasons for that don’t necessarily reflect poorly on them.

    One of those reasons is that the Barr/Root campaign, like the Badnarik campaign, chose to target “battleground” states in an attempt to eke out a “balance of power” change in the electoral vote total, rather than investing their money in states where the election wasn’t close, hoping to maximize “low-hanging fruit” vote totals.

    That was a tactical decision. It may have been the wrong decision in 2008. It may have been the wrong decision in 2004. What it wasn’t in either year was an unreasonable decision. If the election had turned out to be close, and if Barr/Root had “changed the outcome” in a state that in turn changed the outcome of the electoral college vote, it would have been huge (if not for the Florida fiasco, which ended up centering attention on Nader, Harry Browne might have achieved that in 2000 — he outpolled the difference in New Mexico and allegedly “cost Bush” that state; had Florida gone clearly for Gore instead being hazy enough for the GOP to steal it, things would likely have looked different from the standpoint of who got “blamed”).

    Now, to Vin Suprynowicz: I still consider him a friend, but we don’t talk much the last few years, especially since he went round the Crazy Curve on “illegal immigration.”

    However, to say that he’s done nothing for the LP is pure-D bullshit. He served as the party’s vice-presidential candidate in Arizona in 2000, where the Smith/Suprynowicz ticket polled about as well as the alternative Browne/Olivier ticket did nationwide. He’s also pulled in traffic to LP events, including a Missouri LP convention in, if I recall correctly, 2002. And if I could only pick three libertarian books to put in public libraries, at least one of his (Send in the Waco Killers), perhaps two (add The Ballad of Carl Drega) and maybe even three (The Black Arrow) would make the list.

  90. libertariangirl

    MS_However, to say that he’s done nothing for the LP is pure-D bullshit.

    me_’ I know you used to do nice things for me but what have you done for me late-ly.

    In the 7 yrs Ive been involved with the LPNevada and the Clark County LP he’s been our speaker twice. Thats it .
    he’s never done an article since James Dan 02 to help a local candidate , he’s never given us any money , he doesn’t come to our conventions or meetings.
    He hasnt help the party here at all. The times he spoke were promoting his own book .
    seriously Mike , not one mention of a local LP candidate , and we had a cpl good ones . One that even won the endorsement of the paper he works for , and still nothing.
    He hasnt lifted a finger to help up , then tells his readers to vote for McCain.
    oh , HELL NO .
    I stand by my first assertion . In Southern Nevada , he’s a Libertarian in name only

  91. libertariangirl

    Michael H. Wilson // Sep 25, 2009 at 11:11 am

    LG Vin may not be your cup of tea, but as far as I am concerned he’s at the top of the list of Libertarians anywhere.

    A few years ago he came to Portland to speak to a group and one of our guys managed to get him to comeover and speak to our local Portland LP group. I was dead ass sick with the flu, or some such, but Vin gave one of the best, if not the best speech I have ever heard from any Libertarian. I would have loved to stay around and talked to him that evening but as sick as I was it was not a good idea. He’s tops in my book any day of the week.

    me_ was he paid for the appearance? I bet he was.
    can somebody please ask him why he hates his local LP? I still send him invites to almost every event we get. He never shows . Evrybody see’s him apparently but us ,

  92. Muskingum Libertarians

    Seeing how you all fight like a bunch of snot nose kids. No wonder the Libertarian Party isn’t a stronger party. Most of you are the reason people jump to the Republican Party to carry on the libertarian movement. We don’t all have to agree on every point of the parties platform but the major issues are key. We need to find a canidate that supports a majority of out platform. If it is Wayne Allyn Root, Sarah Palin, Thomas L. Knapp, or Steven Linnabary, we all need to come together and support them. That is what a political party does. It is what is what the Republicans and Democrats do. Isn’t it better to have a Libertarian in office that you might not completely agree with than a Republican or Democrat that you 100% disagree with. We all need to shut up and work together on the goal of bringing libertarianism to America, keeping our Freedoms, lowering our taxes, and reducing the size of our government. I might not support your beliefs on everything, but I will stand up and fight for your right to say them. That is what the Libertarian Party that I love stands for. We don’t have to have a stance on everything. Remember the saying KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid. The more we add to our platform and the more complex we make it, so it can cover every little thing that you all think is important, just pushes away more people from the libertarian cause. A United Libertarian Party is what we for America. SO ALL OF YOU QUIT YOUR BITCHING AND WORK TOGETHER, AMERICA NEEDS US!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  93. Brian Holtz

    Tom, I provided the link above for Barr polling 6%. Something has to explain where that support went. I can’t say I know.

    A Zogby/Reuters national poll showed Badnarik tied with Nader at 1 percentage point, according to the New York Times on Oct 24, 2004. This Zogby poll from mid-October gave Badnarik 0.7%, and I can’t find any higher poll result for him. So the NY Times may have rounded to 1%, and I don’t see how a Wikipedia editor translated that Times article into “no national polls including Badnarik had put him above 1.5%”.

    I doubt any other LP campaign has ever come anywhere near Barr’s 6% in a nationwide poll. That result, along with several other nationwide polls during the campaign that put Barr at 4%, surely had to grab Demopublican attention in a way that no other LP campaign ever had. And that’s not even looking at battleground states.

  94. libertariangirl

    Michael , I meant was he paid for whatever he was in town for originally. Or are you saying that he traveled all the way to your state to appear and speak at your covention?
    which if it is true , will make me twice as mad he can never be bothered with us here in Nevada.

  95. robert capozzi

    tk, I thought the swing state strategy was a mistake. Why not rack up vote totals in lopsided states, where the wasted-vote syndrome is minimized?

  96. Thomas L. Knapp

    Brian,

    Polling is time-dependent.

    In AUGUST of 2004, there was, so far as I no, no national scientific presidential polling that included Badnarik. The only scientific polling we had (because the campaign commissioned it) was in New Mexico. It had Badnarik at 5%.

    As you note, Barr was polling at 6% nationwide in the same timeframe of the election cycle four years later.

    New Mexico to national is not a perfect comparison, but it’s the best one I can find.

    As you mention, Badnarik polled nationally at 0.7%-1% by October. Maybe I missed a higher poll, since you refer to a Wikipedia article that says he polled “no higher than 1.5%” nationally.

    By October, Barr was topping out at 2% — again, not much better than Badnarik.

    In November, Barr pulled a few more votes than Badnarik, and had raised a little more money than Badnarik.

    There’s no mystery here that needs to be explained, or that the introduction of Palin into the equation WOULD explain.

    In August, lots of voters are feeling their oats and thinking about voting third party, and that manifests itself as mid-single-digit poll results for Libertarian presidential candidates.

    Then the major parties have their conventions, the race begins to be portrayed as “tightening,” the big guys focus their money hard on nailing down those last few votes with hard marketing and “wasted vote” scare stories … and the polling numbers of Libertarian presidential candidates begin to descend.

    Happens every time. Some people expected Barr to be an exception to the rule. He wasn’t, nor is there any evidence I can find that he was set to be until Palin entered the picture. I can envision circumstances under which he might have been able to pull it off (for example, if McCain had picked Lieberman for VP and then keeled over with a heart attack the next day), but those circumstances were all long shots and probably of the random/luck variety, not something he could have been expected to create himself.

  97. Thomas L. Knapp

    Sorry — I meant to close the bold tag after the first sentence of the last paragraph of my preceding comment.

    Bob,

    You write:

    “I thought the swing state strategy was a mistake.”

    And maybe it was. What it wasn’t, however, was an unreasonable or outrageous mistake. I’m not saying that the Barr campaign didn’t make any unreasonable mistakes (I think they made a few). I’m just saying that if they did, this wasn’t one of them. They had to make a strategy call, and they did.

  98. robert capozzi

    tk, I share your view…Monday morning QBing is the easiest thing in the world.

    My Taoist Hayekian nature suggests flowing where the resistance is least.

  99. Brian Holtz

    Nationally, Bob Barr was as high as

    By contrast, Badnarik was at 3% in July, and at 0.2% in October.

    As for New Mexico, Barr was at 9% there in June, compared to Badnarik’s reported high there of 5% in August.

    Thus Barr repeatedly turned in polling numbers that were at least twice as high as Badnarik’s. The “happens every time” claim is true for the shape of the curve, but demonstrably false for the magnitude.

    However, I still don’t see Palin as having any more impact on the shape or magnitude of the curve than the GOP ticket usually does.

    Bob, I like the swing-state strategy. For such races where we’re very likely to lose, the main audience for our election results should be the Demopublican politicians who we want to co-opt our policy prescriptions. Activist/donor morale is also important, but it is still a means toward the end of moving policy in a libertarian direction.

  100. Michael H. Wilson

    lg I don’t recall the specifics, but I think he was in town for something else. Something to do with Backwoods Home magazine, which is located in Southern Oregon in Gold Beach comes to mind, but I am not sure. Couldn’t give you an honest answer.

  101. Thomas L. Knapp

    Bob,

    As Brian points out, there are arguments to be made for the swing state strategy.

    The biggest argument for the swing state strategy is that if the LP consistently affects the outcomes of elections, the major parties which perceive themselves as on the wrong end of those outcomes will look for ways to woo libertarian voters, i.e. they’ll adopt libertarian policy proposals.

    The biggest argument for the “low-hanging fruit” strategy is that getting a million votes this time makes it easier to build the party and work on two million next time, four million the time after that, etc.

    Both arguments and approaches have their strengths and weaknesses.

    Also, the two strategies probably produce at least some ripple effects which resemble each other. If a “low-hanging fruit” strategy gets an LP candidate polling well in general, voters in closer states may hear more about, and be more inclined to vote Libertarian; if a “swing state” strategy works well enough to be threatening and starts generating media buzz, voters in “low-hanging fruit” states will hear about it even though they weren’t the ones targeted by it.

    While I’ve been critical of the Barr campaign on several matters, I just don’t consider the choice of “swing state” vs. “low-hanging fruit” to be unjustifiable, even if it may have been the wrong call. It’s not a case where there’s one strategy which is clearly “right” and another which is clearly “wrong.”

  102. George Phillies

    Oh, rose fertilizer from male cows!

    WHAT Barr ‘swing state strategy’? Yes, Badnarik had a swing state strategy. His campaign pumped a substantial chunk of its campaigning into a few states.

    Barr did essentially no advertising. He traveled on a far smaller scale than Mike Badnarik or even Harry Browne 2000 did. Barr charged his supporters for lawn signs. He forbade one state group to raise money and spend it running Barr advertisements.

  103. Jill Pyeatt

    The entire Palin family has a priority, which is NOT running for president. That special needs little boy needs constant attention and therapy for him to reach his fullest potential. The main reason I had such a problem with Sarah is that she exploited that little boy. She said that she’d give special attention to special needs individuals, but yet she was back at work when he was 4 days old. Shame on her! I’m not saying this because she’s a woman. That baby should be the entire family’s priority the first few years of his life.

  104. Jill Pyeatt

    Eric at 74: You’re kidding, right? You don’t really believe that the terrorists were planning to bomb New York subways, do you? Sorry, we’ve been lied to by the MSM too often. The Powers That Be are just getting us ready to escalate our wars.

  105. JT

    Tom Knapp @ 108: “I’m just not seeing any evidence for Dondero’s claim that Barr was magically set to poll millions of votes and then got derailed by the Palin VP nomination. If anyone has any evidence, apart from wishful thinking, to support the claim I’d like to see it.”

    Dondero is all about wishful (I’d say incredibly unrealistic) thinking. He’s a one-trick pony who tries to make facts fit his theories instead of the other way around.

    Muskingum Libs @ 111: “We don’t all have to agree on every point of the parties platform but the major issues are key.”

    I ‘ve heard other Libertarians say this. Here’s the problem: WHO decides what the “major issues” are? One person thinks the biggest issue is ending the destructive drug war. Another person thinks it’s preventing “pre-emptive” (i.e., aggressive) foreign war. Another person thinks it’s ending the slave income tax. Another person thinks it’s eliminating immoral government handouts. Another person thinks it’s stopping the raping of the Bill of Rights. There are many political issues, so it’s natural for Libertarians to disagree about which are “major” and which aren’t. Saying we all just need to get behind the two or three “major issues” doesn’t resolve anything.

  106. JT

    Tom Knapp @ 108: Dondero is all about wishful (I’d say incredibly unrealistic) thinking. He’s a one-trick pony who tries to make facts fit his theories instead of the other way around.

    Muskingum Libs @ 111: I ‘ve heard other Libertarians say this. Here’s the problem: WHO decides what the “major issues” are? One person thinks the biggest issue is ending the destructive drug war. Another person thinks it’s preventing “pre-emptive” (i.e., aggressive) foreign war. Another person thinks it’s ending the slave income tax. Another person thinks it’s eliminating immoral government handouts. Another person thinks it’s stopping the raping of the Bill of Rights. There are many political issues, so it’s natural for Libertarians to disagree about which are “major” and which aren’t. Saying we all just need to get behind the two or three “major issues” doesn’t resolve anything.

  107. Richard Winger

    #117, by Tom Knapp, mentions the hypothetical of McCain choosing Lieberman for V-P and then keeling over the next day. Even under those circumstances, Lieberman would not have been the Republican Party’s presidential nominee. If the Republican National Convention had adjourned when all that happened, the Republican National Committee would have been called into a special meeting and chosen a new presidential nominee. And if the national convention were still in session, it could have chosen a new presidential nominee. Lieberman would not be the presidential nominee in either event.

  108. Thomas L. Knapp

    Richard,

    Actually, in the “McCain picks Lieberman, then keels over” scenario, what I was assuming that the RNC might pick Bob Barr as its replacement candidate, the logic being that an outsider with Republican credentials would be less divisive than one of the also-rans.

  109. Michael H. Wilson

    re JT @ 127. What we might consider is to have a list of 10 to 20 issues much as the Socialist did some years ago. Milton Friedman had the whole list in the back of his book “Free to Choose”.

    If you have a number of different issue much like a top ten list you’ll probably keep the largest number of members happy.

  110. Eric Dondero

    The MSM is covering up the massive Terrorist Bombings that had been planned for Sept. 11 and Sept. 20.

    Now we learn a day later, that it wasn’t only Dallas they were planning to hit, but Springfield, Illinois, and possibly targets in North Carolina, as well.

    But barely a mention at the leftist CNN, MSNBC and the major Threes. Despicable. We’ve become a weak Nation of Surrenderists.

    Islamo-Fascism is the greatest threat we face to our Liberties. Wake the fuck up you all. Stop putting your friggin’ heads in the sand.

    3,000 of your fellow countrymen were brutally massacred on Sept. 11, 2001. The last few days, thousands, perhaps tens of thousands more could have met the same fate, were it not for the FBI.

    And I get some of the dead would’ve been Libertarians.

  111. Eric Dondero

    To Jill Pyeatt. Megan Kelley of Fox News just delivered a baby boy yesterday. The day before she was working at Fox, til late in the night.

    She’s back at work today.

    Was she being “cruel” to her newborn?

    How about Asian women who work in the rice fields all day long, deliver a kid under a shade tree, and two hours later are back in the fields?

    It’s called Survivalism. It’s an instinct we have as homo sapiens and shared by our fellow primates.

    Sarah Palin is at the very top of the Survivalist totem pole. Like her friend Ted Nugent, she is tough as nails.

  112. Eric Dondero

    EVERYONE KINDLY READ THIS:

    This is from a blogger called Arjay at WheresMyFree.com, published last week at Libertarian Republican:

    Would’ve voted for Libertarian Bob Barr, but shifted to McCain cause of Palin

    Blue Collar Libertarian

    Bob Arjay, a Christian Dad, Marthon runner, Sports guy and Political junkie wrote a column at Bukisa titled: “Race, Immigration, Obama & Palin”. Arjay writes:

    I also think the political Left is not doing Obama any favors by claiming that the Tea Partiers and others who oppose Obamas’ agenda are racists. Average people who are concerned by government spending, business and healthcare takeover being labled as racist is very bad politics. Those politicians, media types and others who insist on going down that path, do so at their own political peril!

    But he also adds this interesting tidbit about the 2008 campaign:

    On November 4th, 2008, I voted for John McCain, which wouldn’t surprise anybody who knows me. I’ve been a lifelong Republican and would never vote for the likes of Obama. But the truth is, I was going to vote for Bob Barr, the Libertarian nominee for president. That is until McCain picked Sarah Palin to be his VP nominee. For me, Palin made McCain palatable. For those who say Sarah Palin hurt or somehow cost John McCain the election, I say you’re full of it. I personally know many people who only voted for McCain because SP was on the ticket.

  113. Eric Dondero

    Also note, Vin Suprynowicz was not the only columnist/media figure to put out a last minute appeal on Nov. 2/3 2008 for Bob Barr supporters to switch to McCain/Palin.

    Alan Boch of the Orange County Register also put out such an appeal.

    And if I remember correctly David Harsayni of the Denver Post did the same, as did a libertarian columnist up in Boston (I forget his name.)

    Added to my article blast carried by hundreds of political sites and blogs on Nov. 3, and estimated by JB Williams to have been seen by 3 to 5 million people, this was quite a powerful appeal.

    You wanna know where all those Barr votes that should’ve been “5 to 6%” went on Election Day?

    To McCain/Palin (mostly to Palin.) Thanks to the “Last Minute Barr-ites for McCain/Palin.”

  114. JT

    Michael Wilson “What we might consider is to have a list of 10 to 20 issues much as the Socialist did some years ago.”

    How is that much different than now, though? The LP Platform includes just over 20 planks, but a few of them are never written about in press releases or spoken about by LP candidates. The Libertarian who says we just need to agree and focus on the “major issues” usually means two or three or four that HE thinks are most important for whatever reasons. Any other social issues are trivial to him, so agreement doesn’t matter.

  115. JT

    Dondero: “3,000 of your fellow countrymen were brutally massacred on Sept. 11, 2001.”

    Every American older than 4 already knows that, condescending prick, and almost no one is happy about that. What many Americans don’t know is that aggression between America and the Middle East didn’t begin on Sept. 11, 2001.

    Dondero: “I personally know many people who only voted for McCain because SP was on the ticket.”

    And I personally know people who were going to vote for McCain but didn’t because SP was on the ticket. I guess they cancel each other out.

  116. Steven R Linnabary

    I also think the political Left is not doing Obama any favors by claiming that the Tea Partiers and others who oppose Obamas’ agenda are racists. Average people who are concerned by government spending, business and healthcare takeover being labled as racist is very bad politics.

    It’s also very logical that some people would believe it is racism. What other explanation could you have for supporting the higher taxes, government takeover of business and healthcare by McCain would suddenly find it unthinkable to support the same thing under Obama?

    Logically, the only thing is racism.

    Granted, a few Tea Partiers supported Barr or Baldwin, but they are in the minority of those opposed to the government free for all going on today.

    AFAIC, it IS racism that is inspiring the vast majority of Tea Partiers.

    PEACE

  117. Aaron Starr

    Michael @ 93

    “Aaron there are probably too many variables for us to really measure the outcome. The weather is always one variable that is difficult to consider. If it rains in Boston but a hurricaine hits New Orleans how would Democrats have voted. Then you write; “No LP candidate is ever going to be given exposure on the same playing field as the Dems and the Reps”. So let me ask what is going to keep the LP from trying harder?And why isn’t the LP trying harder?”

    To clarify, I probably should have written “No LP Presidential candidate is ever going to be given exposure on the same playing field as the Dems and the Reps.”

    The Reps and Dems control who actually gets into the Presidential debates and they simply have no reason to ever want to include us.

    I believe that the primary purpose of a Presidential campaign is to increase the number of donors the party. By doing this, we can grow to the point where we can have an impact.

    We spend too much time debating what type of message we are unable to deliver, rather than asking people to join us.

  118. Michael H. Wilson

    Aaron I have been in sales for a long time.

    We need to explain to people what we are about and how they will be better off in a Libertarian society before they will join us. And that can be done fairly simply and cheaply. We just have to do it and so far I have not seen much evidence that we have. In fact we have been doing less each year.

  119. Michael H. Wilson

    Y’all I’m to damn tired to do much more that fart around this evening so in the interest of wasting time I have created a list of issues that are on the top of my agenda if I was running a campaign. I begin with those that can save money and lives. For what it is worth here they are. Probably going to be out of the format I created them in but…

    Bring all the troops home:
    U.S. military deployment overseas
    Presently engaged in two wars
    Troops presently deployed to 750-800 bases in 120 countries around the world
    Costs since the end of WWII ? Presently costs probably exceed $200 billion annually and destroy many lives. $600 per person

    Drug War: costs about $60 billion annually and has filled our prisons, corrupted the judicial system. $180 per person
    Corporate welfare: costs $100 billion annually. $300 per person
    National debt: will exceed $400 billion in 2009, or roughly $1200 per person
    Unfunded liabilities: Probably nearing $60 trillion or roughly $180,000 per person.
    Occupational licensing laws: Over 200 occupations are licensed in all the states thus depriving people of the freedom to work and these laws do little or nothing to protect consumers. They do protect the established businesses from competition and hold down innovations.
    Healthcare: has been made a mess by regulations at both the federal and state levels while an effort at reform is going on at the federal level nothing is happening at the state level. A libertarian solution would repeal the regulations at the state level that restrict the rights of mothers to choose midwives or other alternative services. Abolish the certificate of needs programs that exist in some 26 states. Abolish all licensing of medical equipment and drugs at the federal and state level. Abolish the state licensing boards along with occupational licensing laws. At the federal level we would abolish the FDA and repeal the McCarran-Ferguson Act that prevents interstate competition in medical insurance.
    Urban transportation: we call for the repeal of all regulations that restrict the rights of consumers to choose the services that best fit their needs. The lack of adequate urban transit services has contributed to poverty, hardest hit are the elderly and members of minority groups, and the social problems that go with poverty.
    Increasing the alternatives available would reduce auto emissions especially CO2,
    reduce traffic congestion, reduce poverty and the associated social problems, slow the expansion of the cities, and reduce the consumption of fossil fuels from foreign nations thus helping the U.S. balance of payments problem.

  120. Eric Dondero

    JT, you’re wrong. It doesn’t seem like hardly any American these days remembers 9/11. It’s not taught about in our schools. Hardly anyone ever mentions it on-line. There are no Specials on TV networks reminding us of that day. It’s been forgotten.

    I never hear you talk about it. I never hear IPR talk about it.

    Why aren’t we looking at the photos of those men and women who jumped to their deaths from the 110th floors of the Twin Towers?

    Why aren’t we replaying that YouTube video of the Palestinians jumping for joy in the streets of Gaza screaming “Death to America…” as the 2nd plane hit?

    We need to be calling for Revenge! every single day of our lives, til our dying days, for the worst attack ever in the History of the United States on our own soil.

    Anything less, is an insult of enormous proportions to those 3,000 who died, and most especially to those brave fire fighters, policemen, and the passengers of the United Flight who fought back.

    Do something TODAY!!! to remember 9/11.

  121. Robert Capozzi

    tk and bh, at the prez level, yep, I’m for the low-hanging fruit approach. Positioning to be a spoiler only gains you notoriety, like Nader 1980 in FL. Bear in mind that Nader already had TONS of goodwill.

    Look, for ex., at NY and the NE states. There, the GOP is in retreat, big time. Yet, there are LOTS of fiscal conservative/social liberals there. There also happens to be a lot of affluent people in those states.

    In short, lots of L leaners. Large pool of protest voters. Politics is a numbers game.

    The swing-state strategy is too cute for my tastes. And too expensive.

  122. Eric Dondero

    You’re right JT, the War with Islamo-Fascism did start before 9/11. It started the very day that Saddam Hussein’s Military lobbed that missile at the USS Stark in the Persian Gulf, in 1986, killing 37 US Sailors.

    Or, you could say it started when Achmadinajed and his co-horts (yes, he himself was there), took our Embassy workers hostage in 1979.

    And it was most certainly well underway when the Khobar Towers were bombed, when the 250 US Marines were killed in Lebanon, and when the USS C0le was attacked.

    It most certainly was underway when Saddam’s puppet Timothy McVeigh bombed the Murrah Building in downtown OKC killing 183 innocents.

    It’s been going on for decades now. The question is what in the bloody hell have you done to revenge the deaths of your fellow Americans at the hands of Saddam, Bin Laden, the Taliban, Pakistani Militants, Al-Shabab, Mohamaar Qadhafi, Hezbolah and other Mulsim Militants?

  123. Eric Dondero

    Steve Linnaberry, US Senator John McCain of Arizona has a lifetime voting score of 82 according to the distinguished American Conservative Union. His score from the National Taxpayers Union is similarly in the 80s. Sen. McCain actually won the Liberty Index published by the Republican Liberty Caucus (Dr. Clifford Thies, an Economist) yearly, one year. He regularly scores in the high 70s on that Index. Citizens against Government Wastes also rates Sen. McCain in the high 70s annually.

    Barack Hussein Obama? His two years in the US Senate he rated 0 on practically all Indexes as the most Socialist Senator even beating out Vermont’s Bernie Sanders.

    Now, do you honestly believe that if Sen. McCain were President today he’d be proposing a Socialized Health Care proposal and a takeover of 1/6th of the US Economy?

    McCain is not perfect by any stretch. But he’s 1,000 times better than Obama.

  124. Robert Capozzi

    ed 142, I remember it quite vividly.

    Question: Do you think it’s possible that a response to an attack COULD make the situation worse?

    Say, for ex., in response to 9/11, the US surrounded the Saudi embassy and consulates here, taking them all hostage.

    Or, say Bush nuked Mecca.

    Can you IMAGINE that such inappropriate responses might have triggered horrific results? Or is your view that ANY response would be justified?

    We get that you think Iraq was justified. Some of us disagree, strongly so. There’s such a thing as making a bad situation worse, yes?

  125. George Phillies

    @145

    We have the experimental answer. George W Bush gave us Medicare D, the largest expansion of welfare since LBJ.

    The size of the “public option” is being wildly overstated. The folks who identified the “44 million uninsured” found 15 or 20 million are already covered by Medicaid for example because they are unemployed, for which they have not registered because they are not sick, 15 or so million are visitors from foreign lands who would not be covered by the public option if it passed, around 4 million are people who declined employer offers of health insurance, and down at the bottom in count are some millions who slipped through the cracks in all the other coverages–they are the public option recipients. Mind you, I think that study is a bit optimistic, but the numbers are a bit interesting.

  126. George Phillies

    And because W gave us Medicaid D, it is not at all surprising that President McCain, who has spent his whole life covered by government medical programs, would support extending it to everyone else.

  127. Gary Odom

    I am sure that the Henry Kissinger tutored Sarah Palin perfectly represents the Libertarian Party’s internationalist foreign policy (which they have been hiding for 36 years). I am sure that if Bob Barr can change every single one of his salient positions to become a Libertarian, so can Ms. Fey, er, Palin.

    Obviously, the Constitution Party is the only real “non-interventionist” party in America.

  128. Robert Capozzi

    145, 148, 149, yes, McCain v. Obama economic record might lead one to prefer McCain. As George points out, though, the Rs have been so hypocritical on the one area where their rhetoric is less anti-liberty that an L has a hard time rooting for an R win.

    While I proudly voted for Barr (despite some disagreements), I was rooting Obama. He’s actually been somewhat more anti-liberty than I expected, but I stand by that call. McCain with the nuclear football in this environment was too risky, and that was exacerbated by his history, age, and choice of a rookie VP.

  129. JT

    Dondero: “JT, you’re wrong. It doesn’t seem like hardly any American these days remembers 9/11.”

    You’re clearly right, Eric. Nobody remembers 9/11, except for you and a few special others. If you ask Americans what happened on Sept. 11, 2001, the vast majority of them won’t be able to tell you. We need to hear or see something about 9/11 every single day for the rest of our lives. Actually, that’s not even enough. We should hear or see something about it every waking hour of every day for the rest of our lives. That’s the least we can do. And if you don’t think so, you’re evil.

    Dondero: “You’re right JT, the War with Islamo-Fascism did start before 9/11. It started the very day that Saddam Hussein’s Military lobbed that missile at the USS Stark in the Persian Gulf, in 1986, killing 37 US Sailors.”

    No, genius. The US involvement with the Muslim world started way before that. Probably back in the early 50s with the decision to overthrow the elected leader of Iran and install a puppet ruler, which paved the way for Khomeini to take power almost three decades later. And who had armed Saddam Hussein’s regime in the 1980s? One guess. I’m not continuing to talk about this with you because Middle Eastern history obviously isn’t your strong suit.

    Capozzi: “[Obama’s] actually been somewhat more anti-liberty than I expected, but I stand by that call.”

    Somewhat more anti-liberty? Name two things that Obama has done so far or is trying to do that are good from a libertarian perspective. Shifting US troops from Iraq to Afghanistan doesn’t count, in my book.

  130. Michael H. Wilson

    Eric the U.S. government has been walking around the Middle East with its head so far up the British lion’s ass it has forgotten that our country fought for independence from the crown. We have been left to clean up a mess created in the aftermath of WWI and any time the British crown demands we jump.

  131. robert capozzi

    JT, IOW, Obama has been worse than I expected…I expected bad, we’ve gotten worse. But at least he’s not pushed the button.

  132. Eric Dondero

    Hey Crapozzi, heard the latest? Obama will throw anyone in jail who does not get covered for health care for up to 1 year, in addition to fines.

    That’s the guy you were “rooting for.” You Sir, are to blame for this current Fascist mess we find ourselves in today, cause you had some thing against a former 6 year POW.

  133. libertariangirl

    I wasn’t rooting for either one. It is the Great Illusion that they are cut from different cloth. More government , less liberty. Their opposition exists solely to frame the argument w/i certain parameters.

  134. robert capozzi

    ed, you might want to reread your last post, as it’s obviously not lucid. I voted for Barr. I have compassion for McCain’s time as a POW. But his unstable behavior in recent years makes me pleased he’s not President.

    Blaming me for Obama’s election seriously damages your credibility.

  135. Mik Robertson

    @156 “Hey Crapozzi, heard the latest? Obama will throw anyone in jail who does not get covered for health care for up to 1 year, in addition to fines.”

    That’s one way to get people health coverage, I suppose.

  136. mdh

    Libertarians should never support such a statist. End of story.

    What we really need is an explicitly anarchist candidate.

  137. Solomon Drek

    Eric Dondero@156: “Obama will throw anyone in jail who does not get covered for health care for up to 1 year, in addition to fines.”

    At least they’ll get room, board, clothing and health care.

    Besides, any deadbeat who can afford health insurance but spends their money instead on boats, motorbikes, ATVs, gas guzzling SUVs, etc, and then sticks the hospital with the cost of treating them when they get sick (which gets passed on to those of us who do have insurance in the form of higher premiums and co-pays) should be thrown in jail for theft of services.

  138. Solomon Drek

    Nicolas@153: “The LP is perfectly capable of sinking this low. It is a party of opportunists and sell-outs.”

    It became that last year when they nominated Barr/Root. Root will finish the job in 2012 when he does to the LP what Pat Buchanan did to Ross Perot’s Reform Party in 2000.

    The LP will bend over for whoever gets the most air time on FOX News.

  139. libertariangirl

    why do I feel like ive heard that before??

    Drek , I believe your spamming or cutting and pasting comments!

  140. paulie

    compare and contrast:

    drek 61

    Anybody who does not support the unrestricted freedom of movement of capital, goods, services, and labor in a free and open global economy is no libertarian, IMHO. Only a statist, limited or otherwise, would advocate anything else.

    drek 161

    Besides, any deadbeat who can afford health insurance but spends their money instead on boats, motorbikes, ATVs, gas guzzling SUVs, etc, and then sticks the hospital with the cost of treating them when they get sick (which gets passed on to those of us who do have insurance in the form of higher premiums and co-pays) should be thrown in jail for theft of services.

  141. paulie

    Haven’t read the whole thread yet, but the Palins have denied any AIP membership, saying Todd Palin registered AIP by mistake.

  142. Eric Dondero

    Solomon why do you presume that individuals who don’t have health care are “deadbeats” and want to stick others with their hospital bills?

    I get my health care nearby in Mexico.

    As do an increasing number of Texans, Californians and others living in the Border Region. How is that “sticking others with the bill”?

  143. Eric Dondero

    SHAMELESS PLUG ALERT!!!

    IPR readers humor me for once. I know you all can’t stand me, and just wish I’d go away. (Not going to happen in a million years.)

    So, I stand on thin ice here asking you this favor. But here it goes…

    Tomorrow we’ll be running a short article at Libertarian Republican blogspot, about a topic which all of you posters here will find of great interest.

    Was not written by me, but rather a nother Republican. Let’s just say she’s from “another wing” of the GOP. And she directly addresses libertarians and the Libertarian Party.

    It’s not pretty, trust me.

    And it’s guaranteed to absolutely crush y’all’s world view as to libertarians in the GOP.

    Please check it out at http://www.libertarianrepublican.blogspot.com

    Thanks

  144. George W Bush and Dick Cheney are the real 9/11 terrorists and Obama Been Lin'y

    “We need to be calling for Revenge! every single day of our lives, til our dying days, for the worst attack ever in the History of the United States on our own soil.

    Anything less, is an insult of enormous proportions to those 3,000 who died, and most especially to those brave fire fighters, policemen, and the passengers of the United Flight who fought back.

    Do something TODAY!!! to remember 9/11.”

    Thanks, I just did!

    Sent a letter to my congressman for war crimes trials for Bush, Cheney and co. and a real 9/11 investigation.

    Thanks for reminding me!

  145. JT

    Dondero: “IPR readers humor me for once. I know you all can’t stand me, and just wish I’d go away. (Not going to happen in a million years.)”

    Can’t stand you, true. Wish you’d go away, false. You’re too entertaining as an unwavering Republican apologist and as a guy who sincerely thinks he’s politically important. You’re not. The fact you don’t realize that is what’s funny.

  146. George Phillies

    The suggestion that Sarah Palin would be a libertarian-leaning Presidential candidate is, however, more sane that the suggestion that we should identify Glenn Beck as a libertarian, that suggestion coming from our national losership. An interesting quote, I gather from Beck’s latest book “In his chapter titled “U.S. Presidents: A Steady Progression of Progressives,” Beck treats us to his list of the “Top Ten Bastards of All Time.” The occupants of that list, in ascending order, are Pol Pot, Robert Mugabe, Teddy Roosevelt, Bernie Madoff, Adolf Hitler, Keith Olbermann, Pontius Pilate, FDR, Tiger Woods, and Woodrow Wilson.”

  147. Michael H. Wilson

    So what’s Tiger on the List for? And FDR while many dislike him there was a real effort to get him to assume dicatorial powers when he was in office and he declined to go that way. Maybe he was actually better than many think. I notice that Stalin missed the cut as did Vail the Impaler.

    What a guy that Beck.

  148. Ayn R. Key

    Dondero @ 99

    Was it a Democrat who made the huge behind-the-scenes appeal for you to try to sway libertarians to McCain / Palin, because as any thinking person knows your influence among libertarians is negative.

  149. Thomas L. Knapp

    Bob,

    You write:

    “I’ve proposed an all anarchist fusion ticket that could very well win.”

    Here, let me fix that for you:

    “I’ve proposed an all anarchist fusion ticket that could very well win in my fantasy world.

    There ya go. No charge.

  150. Andy

    “George Phillies // Sep 26, 2009 at 8:54 pm

    The suggestion that Sarah Palin would be a libertarian-leaning Presidential candidate is, however, more sane that the suggestion that we should identify Glenn Beck as a libertarian, that suggestion coming from our national losership.”

    Neither Sarah Palin or Glenn Beck are really libertarians.

  151. Michael Seebeck

    Funny, I thought US involvement with Muslims started with those “Mohammedeans”, the Barbary pirates–you, know Shores of Tripoli, 1700s, “The US is no sense founded on the Christian religion”, all that stuff in that military history class that every swab like Dondero is supposed to learn, shoot, I learned that in American History in junior high school!

  152. Robert Milnes

    What if…Gravel announces he’s running for the Libertarian Party nomination…in 2008 or 2012… & that he’s been radicalized by GWB & the 2 wars & smoking pot & dropping acid for years & is an anarchist. & At the convention Kubby passes out joints & some sort of happy pills & the delegates decide to nominate Gravel, just for laughs because Barr drank beer & depth charges instead of the pot & pills & is a crying in his beer, hostile drunk & just not fun & Ruwart says me, me, I wanna be vp! So the delegates say yay, yay, anything you say! & then the headlines the next day-All anarchist fusion ticket wafts out of LP convention air ducts! & they go on to the debates, because Gravel is an ex-senator etc. & wind up winning because everybody has respect for him & everybody loves Sweet Mary!

  153. Eric Dondero

    The article I’d like you all to see is now up. It’s called “Revenge of the RINOs: Compassionate Conservative complains about libertarians in the GOP, especially Palin and Beck.”

    A squishy moderate chic blasts libertarian Republicans, and she calls Sarah Palin an “extremist libertarian,” like Glenn Beck.

    http://www.libertarianrepublican.blogspot.com

    This crushes y’all’s world view. You sit here day in and day out talking about how “Sarah Palin is no libertarian, not even close,” yet others in the real world of politics, believe not only is she a libertarian, but an extremist one at that.

    Like everything in life, truth is somewheres in the middle. Sarah is not an “extremist” libertarian. But neither is she some sort of “social conservative” as some here would like to portray her.

    She’s a mainstream libertarian, or a libertarian-conservtive. And folks, in the real world of American politics, that is about the best thing we could ever hope for.

  154. Eric Dondero

    A though just occured to me. You know, you all here brutally bash me every day for defending Palin and other libertarians in the GOP.

    How about for once, you skip over me, and go directly to this chic’s blog? Blast her. Scream in her face, and say: “Are you crazy… Palin is no libertarian, blah, blah, blah…”

    Her url link is in the article.

    I think it would literally blow her away.

  155. Eric Dondero

    Hilarious, as I read the posts above our beloved “Andy” has one that says, “neither Palin or Beck are libertarians.”

    Hey Andy, why don’t you tell that to the RINO chic blogger who just smacked the both of them for being “extremist libertarians,” and said that they should join the Libertarian Party where they belong.

    She even used the term “losertarian party” at one point. She was very harsh.

    Do you have the balls to attack her? Or, are one of those pussy-boy “Libertarians” who only stay in safe environments where you’ve got a lot of fellow 3rd party friends?

    Gonna let a GIRL! get the best of you “Andy”?

  156. George Phillies

    @177

    Not clear why she thinks Palin is a libertarian. Her notion that the Republican Party is likely to be taken over by the Beck followers, the religious fanatics, the conspiracy nuts, following which they will copy ‘an aspect of the Libertarian Party’ that we are seeking to shed, namely rarely winning elections, well, that notion sounds quite plausible. As the Christian fundamentalist right demonstrated a while back, if you have enough people to show up at all the ward and precinct caucuses and elect your own people as party officers, you will take control. Your main need in pulling that off is lots of people willing to spend time on party takeover efforts, and Beck, Palin, etc. have that.

    A case could be made that Palin is running the first 21st century technology major-party Presidential campaign.

  157. Thomas L. Knapp

    Eric,

    I did take the time to explain to Nikki why even calling Palin a conservative is a stretch and why calling her a libertarian is a (bad) joke, but get real: Calling According to Nikki “the real world of politics” is like calling 1st grade tee-ball “Major League Baseball” (that’s not to put her down — I’m definitely in Little League myself, and you’re either in Little League or going out for the junior high team).

    – I’ve still never seen you explain why your criteria for deciding whether or not someone is a libertarian is what their opponents say about them. By your criteria, the Pope doesn’t decide who’s Catholic, the Mufti of Jerusalem does.

  158. libertariangirl

    ED__This crushes y’all’s world view

    me_ how does it “crush” our worldview. it just someone who thinks differently and is wrong. It crushes nothing.

  159. libertariangirl

    Ayn_Was it a Democrat who made the huge behind-the-scenes appeal for you to try to sway libertarians to McCain / Palin, because as any thinking person knows your influence among libertarians is negative.

    me_ no shit , a Dondero endorsement is the kiss of death in LP circles.

  160. libertariangirl

    @172 – Keith Olbermann and Tiger Woods?

    was he joking? i know he has a funny feud with Olbermann (who i cant stand) but what could tiger woods have ever done?
    he must be joking.

  161. Thomas M. Sipos

    me_ no shit , a Dondero endorsement is the kiss of death in LP circles.

    Which is why I never tire of reminding people that Dondero claims to have convinced Root to run for the LP nomination, 🙂

    That’s right. Root’s candidacy is Dondero’s doing.

    And last I heard, Dondero continues to be pleased with Root.

  162. libertariangirl

    I know I wish he’d shut up.
    I heard in S.D from Scott Lieberman at a party at the pizza shop , that he recruited Root . Ive also heard that Aaron Starr did , which makes more sense.

  163. Eric Dondero

    No George! That’s not the case she is making. It’s not the Religious Right she fears. If you read her article she clearly states, that she herself is a “social conservative.”

    What she clearly fears is that the Republican Party is being taking over by “libertarian fanatics” like Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin.

    George, you’re a friend. I sincerely hope that you were not trying to spin Nikki’s piece to suit your needs. Nikki is very forthright in that piece, and surely a college professor such as yourself can garner that.

  164. Eric Dondero

    Sipos, it’s not me who claims that I recruited Root, it’s Root himself.

    I receive a one sentence acknowledgement of that fact in his latest book “The Consceince of a Libertarian,” page XV:

    “and Eric Dondero, who recommended me for the Libertarian nomination and whose original blog Libertarian Republican got me started on this long journey”

  165. Eric Dondero

    Dondero’s endorsement is the “kiss of death” in Libertarian circles.

    Really? You sure about that one?

    I think our friend Tom Knapp can confirm, certainly Sean Haugh, Stephen Gordon, and Shane Cory, that two days before the Libertarian National Convention I endorsed Bob Barr for the nomiantion (much to the displeasure of Wayne whom I originally recruited.)

    I forget. Help me out here. Who was it who won the 2008 Libertarian Presidential nomination?

    That’s right: BOB BARR

  166. Michael Seebeck

    LG, A Dondero endorsement is only a kiss of death if people take his kunatic ramblings seriously.

    Believe me, nobody does except himself.

    Kinda like Milnes.

    Hey, there’s an idea–Dondero-Milnes 2012, the progneocon-looneytunes alliance! (Apologies to Warner Brothers and all Bugs Bunny fans) They might get…2 votes (assuming Milnes shows up at the convention).

  167. Thomas M. Sipos

    Dondi: it’s not me who claims that I recruited Root, it’s Root himself.

    I receive a one sentence acknowledgement of that fact in his latest book “The Consceince of a Libertarian,” page XV:

    “and Eric Dondero, who recommended me for the Libertarian nomination and whose original blog Libertarian Republican got me started on this long journey”

    Thanks! I’m glad it’s in black and white, in print, from the horse’s mouth.

    Internet posts are easier to delete and deny. I’m happy Root has so publicly embraced you.

    Root had praised Barr in June 2008, but in December 2008 I heard that Root was distancing himself from Barr, and claiming to have become a Radical libertarian.

    Of course, he later morphed into a “Fox News libertarian” (i.e., someone approved by Fox News) which is anything but a Radical.

    Root changes so often, it’s nice to have his praise of Dondero in book form. Harder to deny and toss down the Memory Hole.

  168. Eric Dondero

    Yeah, okay, glad that you’re glad for your own political reasons.

    But now how about admitting that you were dead wrong, a couple posts back?

    Say it: “I, Thomas Sipos, suggested that Eric Dondero did not recruit Wayne Root for the Libertarian nomination, additionally, that any endorsment from Dondero is a Kiss of Death in Libertarian circles, but I admit now, after Dondero has provided evidence to the contrarty that I was wrong. My apologies to Mr. Dondero, and to the readership of IPR.”

    Something along those lines would be in order.

  169. libertariangirl

    well all I can say is a whole lots people want to take credit for the phenom that is Wayne Root , but I give all the credit to Wayne.

  170. paulie

    Thomas @ 176

    Except that the vast majority of “anarchists” on Milnes’ proposed “anarchist” aren’t anarchists, including Milnes himself.

  171. paulie

    LG, A Dondero endorsement is only a kiss of death if people take his kunatic ramblings seriously.

    Believe me, nobody does except himself.

    Kinda like Milnes.

    Hey, there’s an idea–Dondero-Milnes 2012, the progneocon-looneytunes alliance! (Apologies to Warner Brothers and all Bugs Bunny fans) They might get…2 votes (assuming Milnes shows up at the convention).

    Funny, I was just trying to decide which sounded more realistic: Milnes 179 or Dondero 180-2.

  172. paulie

    Gonna let a GIRL! get the best of you “Andy”?

    What difference does it make that she has female plumbing? It’s blogging, not a penis measuring contest, unless of course you are very insecure.

  173. Eric Dondero

    Awww, likc clockwork Paulie jumps in to defend his Girlie Man friend “Andy.”

    Hey Paulie, nice of you to defend the female half of our population. Now how about doing the same for our best friends – Canines.

    You’re still a defender and close friend and ally of a confirmed dog killer. You know of whom I speak. And you know the whole story.

  174. paulie

    Eric,

    A) The dog killing story is total bullshit, as is pretty much anything Roger Pope says.
    B) If you want to call Andy girlie, do it to his face.
    C) I don’t talk to Gary, and far from being my friend he is actually spam blocked from my email.

    Hope that clears that up.

  175. Todd Andrew Barnett

    “Say it: ‘I, Thomas Sipos, suggested that Eric Dondero did not recruit Wayne Root for the Libertarian nomination, additionally, that any endorsment from Dondero is a Kiss of Death in Libertarian circles, but I admit now, after Dondero has provided evidence to the contrarty that I was wrong. My apologies to Mr. Dondero, and to the readership of IPR.’

    Something along those lines would be in order.”

    If Dondero is serious enough to demand that Mr. Sipos apologizes for his statement to say that he (meaning Mr. Sipos) did not imply or state that Dondero recruited Wayne Allyn Root for the nomination, then, as a former Libertarian myself, he’s, to use an old cannabis adage, “pipe dreaming” to say the least.

    Mr. Sipos did say that Dondero recruited Root for the LP presidential nomination, but then again, he didn’t have to. Root does tacitly and implicitly imply in his book (which I do *HAVE* a copy) on page XV that Dondero (via his Libertarian Republican blog) was the reason for getting him “started on his long journey.” He solely credit Dondero for getting him on the LP presidential train by making that statement.

    So what if Sipos did make that statement? Dondero has been known for recruiting Root into the LP presidential race for the sheer purpose of sabotaging the LP and its chances to win the presidential election (even though it didn’t have a chance to win it EVEN if Steve Kubby or Mary Ruwart were going to win). And, according to many reports that had come out of the Bob Barr campaign for months before and after the election, it’s not a surprise that the Barr campaign was a huge flop. His numbers, while slightly higher than Harry Browne’s old numbers in 2000, were somewhat smaller than Badnarik.

    Point of fact, folks, Barr did worse — FAR worse — than *ANY* of the previous nominated contenders for the Office of the Presidency combined. And all this talk of having a “mainstream candidate” just didn’t cut it, as evidenced by the numbers. After all, if the reformers WANTED to “reform” the federal government, why do it under a small (allegedly largest) third party and not under *ANY* one of the two major parties?

    Root has acknowledged that Dondero was the recruiter for him in the Party. I should know that to be the truth, because Dondero told me himself while he was on the air on my show Liberty Cap Talk Live, dated February 22, 2007. And I have the evidence to prove it.

    Dondero, go fly a kite. Everyone knows you’re a lying two-faced son of a bitch. No one likes you here, no one trusts you, and no one believes you. So why even bother with us?

    Go play with Sean Hannity and his wife. Oh wait, Sean doesn’t do “threesomes” like you do.

    What a piece of shit you really are.

    Yours in Liberty,

    Todd Andrew Barnett
    Writer, BlogCritics.com
    Host, Liberty Cap Talk Live
    Secretary, Boston Tea Party

  176. Thomas M. Sipos

    @ 195

    Dondi, what are you talking about?

    I never said an endorsement from you was the kiss of death, one way or another.

    Nor did I ever say that you didn’t recruit Root.

    You must work on your reading comprehension.

  177. Ayn R. Key

    Dondero @ 181

    “You know, you all here brutally bash me every day for defending Palin and other libertarians in the GOP.”

    Palin is one of your “libertarian Republicans” ?

    Come clean for once, what is your definitino of libertarian?

  178. R. Swanson

    Palin is certainly not a strict Libertarian like MG, a laid-back radical like Nolan or even a pragmatic one like Hospers or of whatever kind they are this week. You don’t have to be an expert in law or medicine to support better law or public health.

    If she is interested in Libertarianism and making nice with the LP in Alaska, I suggest we give Dondero and the others some credit for the efforts. I hope he continues to reach out and share Libertarian perspectives with people in the GOP. His sites connect to the LP, the LIO, CATO and more, which about cover the gamut for people who wish to learn more.

    Without saying I’m happy with everything, at the last Convention we saw two semi-retired professional politicians vying for the USLP nomination, along with respected activists. The only thing wrong with that Convention is that the LNC dropped the ball in missing the opportunity of having Jesse Ventura there, which rivals Crane’s team’s screw-up of having Reagan appear at one of our Conventions IMO. I hope we see such interests from politicians as a regular thing in future conventions, 3 or 4 from conservative to progressive backgrounds at least. I also hope they use their campaigns as launching pads for libertarian-direction initiatives as Barr and Gravel did in direct democracy and drug legalization, or publicity blitzes like WAR, even if he seems a bit shaky.

    However, I doubt it would matter if George Washington suddenly appears and is nominated. What I feel many of the LP “factions” forget is that we won’t advance beyond certain numbers in Presidential elections until we see more pledged Libertarians, Libertarian activists working in coalitions with e.g. Greens and community groups, and Libertarians in local appointive and elective office on the local level, along with plenty of Libertarian-oriented less government “market” Liberals. These are growing, but must grow more.

  179. Todd Andrew Barnett

    Um, why wasn’t my earlier comment on Dondero posted? I’m just curious…

    Yours in liberty,

    Todd Andrew Barnett*

    *Now I realize it didn’t post. I wasn’t logged into the site.

  180. paulie

    Todd, no, actually it was caught in the spam filter automatically by mistake. I’ve fished it out now.

    Logging in does not do anything anymore here unless you are an IPR writer.

  181. Steven R Linnabary

    Recent letter forwarded to LP leaders:


    Hello there,

    I have recently become a member of the Libertarian Party and it is all your
    fault, which is a good thing.

    As former staff of former Governor Sarah Palin and also former Commissioner
    of the Department of Natural Resources, Michael Menge, this is my take…

    For years I have wondered where I stood, which party actually supports my
    beliefs. I have always been stuck trying to sync up my beliefs with one of
    the two parties. Honestly, to me Libertarians were pot heads or
    hillbillies. Democrats were Socialists (the perfect system on paper or if
    you live in an ant colony) and Republicans believe in freedom as long as it
    agrees with their take on Christianity. Now, because of you, I have seen
    the error of my ways. I have listened to you extensively and what I like
    about you is that everything you say is what I have always believed.
    Personal freedom and capitalism. Rather than trying to sync my beliefs up
    with a party, your party has beliefs that sync up with mine. That is how it
    should be. Personal freedom and capitalism, free of government and
    corruption. I bill myself as a Jeffersonian Republican and also stand
    against the Supremacy Clause of the US Constitution.

    Thank you for opening my eyes. You have my vote, you have my support. Let
    me know if you need my services.

    My friends and family have been telling me that a wasted vote is a vote
    outside of the two parties. My response is, “To vote for one of two corrupt
    parties isn’t just a wasted vote, it is a vote against one-self. You are
    showing your support for government screwing you. And to vote outside your
    beliefs because you are afraid your candidate may lose makes you no better
    than someone that changes the team they root for just because they lose a
    few games.”

    Your t-shirt should read:
    If you want to be screwed
    vote Dem or Rep
    If you believe in freedom
    vote for
    *Wayne Allyn*
    *Root*

    You are welcome to use any of this e-mail to convince others to do what is
    right.

    I choose to hold true to my beliefs and vote Libertarian despite what others
    say.

    Wade Hoek
    former staff for Governor Sarah Palin
    former staff for State of Alaska, Commissioner of the Department of Natural
    Resources, Michael Menge

    PEACE

  182. M. Simon

    The Bob Barr surge in 2008:

    http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.cfm?ID=1538

    Now I used to be a staunch Libertarian. Secty/Treas of my local club in Illinois (Rockford) for 3 years. When the Libs pussied out post 9/11 I left the Party. Now I’m a hard core Palin supporter until some one better on the R side comes along. I’d like to see Gary Johnson. Maybe a Johnson/Palin ticket or a Palin/Johnson.

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