Marc Montoni at Free Virginia (see embedded links at the original source):
Something that annoys me about Libertarians is that there are so many who think they know what is going on in the Middle East, but they’ve never been there.
Plus, they seem to have blinders on about half of the discussion about the region.
Yes, AIPAC and other such propaganda organs hold a disproportionate share of eyeballs in the policy-making community.
But the policy-making community is notoriously prostitutional in nature, and so the flood of petrodollars from the Arab governments into the American political marketplace ensures the Arab point of view likewise gets an outsized share of attention.
I find it very distasteful to find Libertarians jumping on the anti-Israel bandwagon. There is nothing about Israel that isn’t true about a hundred other US allies.
My main concern with Libertarians singling out Israel for our ire and derision is that doing so makes us sound like Nazis who only find fault with Jews. Yes, there are so-called libertarians who *are* prejudiced against Jews, just as there are libertarians who are bigoted towards women, men, blacks, caucasians, and so on.
A pox on all their houses.
Bigots — Nazi or otherwise — should not be allowed to hijack the movement or the Party.
The only real “Libertarian position about Israel” is that we regard them no differently than any other government: We call for disengagement from all foreign conflicts and abolishing all foreign aid, regardless of the recipient.
A recent discussion reminded me of the lack of investigation libertarians are sometimes guilty of. Specifically, a friend related a claim from WikiLeaks
“… The State of Israel is conspiring to keep their economy at the lowest level of subsistence possible…”
I found this statement to be ridiculous — regardless of the alleged source being a US Embassy cable. The Embassy is part of the US government — and the US government is invompetent at everything it does.
The Israelis are no more capable of “keeping” the Gazan economy “on the brink of collapse” than the US government is capable of controlling the flow of guns, drugs, people, counterfeit products, or anything else across the Rio Grande.
Israel was for decades the largest buyer of goods made (or grown) in Gaza. The decline in exports from Gaza and the resultant economic repercussions were primarily a result of the Israeli regulatory boycott on goods which was instituted in response to repeated murders and rocket attacks. I suspect Americans wouldn’t want to buy anything from Canada either if it was throwing bombs across the border every day.
There is NO prohibition on Gazan goods going to other countries from Gaza. Slowdowns of trucks (and ships) to accommodate searches for weapons and bomb precursors (as well as to calculate taxes), yes, but prohibitions, no. As if the USA doesn’t have exactly that same policy. Ever heard of “US Customs”? Same freaking thing. Well, except there are a lot more things the US government prohibits from crossing the border (such as foreign medications, etc).
Despite the so-called economic “blockade” nee bureaucracy at the border, Gazans manage to smuggle $3 billion in goods into Gaza every year, and almost that much in exports — all outside of the normal regulatory trade markets.
Formal trade — in other words, good NOT smuggled, mainly between Israel and Gaza — amounts to about $6 billion per year, or about twice the informal sector. Indeed, formal business between Israel and Gaza & the West Bank together amounted to about $20 billion in 2013.
I suspect the KFC imports from Egypt are no more difficult than it would be doing the same thing across the border from Tijuana into California. Or even across the border from Windsor ON to Detroit MI.
Americans — and Libertarians — need to worry about our own house.
It has long been one of mine.
Marc said: “American police racked up that many — 40% of them black — in 2014.”
This has become a pet issue of mine. A good percent of my many FB postings have to do with out-of-control police, and this has actually cost me some personal friendships. I am consistent in denouncing every human rights violation I read about. I also don’t spend time defending countries or entities who engage in it.
Jill said:
Not quite. My article was talking about how LIBERTARIANS approach the issue of Israel, and foreign meddling in general.
You responded by defending the practice of some libertarians who attack Israel at every opportunity but who rarely if ever mention any other nation and its sins. And then you cited a 2014 event that has parallels the same year, and all over the planet — but you only have the energy to cite the one.
Yes, it confounds me also.
If Libertarians are only supposed to get moist about Israel, but not about any other nation, then I’m in the wrong movement.
Hell, you cited 2,000 deaths.
American police racked up almost that many (about 1,400 that are documented) — 40% of them black — in 2014.
The USG spends about $300 billion every year for military welfare for Europe, and another ~ $30 billion for military welfare for Japan and South Korea.
Yet every time military aid to Israel is compared to other nations, those numbers are always left off the provided aid charts, so that Israel is always shown as being the “top recipient of military aid”.
It’s a fraud.
One needs to look at the map of US military installations. The Empire began building a ring of assets around Russia and China in 1945, and it hasn’t slowed down a bit.
The Feds don’t even care that Russia and China are commies, although they use that as an excuse for ringing them in with bases. What the Feds do care about is that Russia and China have large population bases and large and powerful militaries — and therefore they are potentially dangerous for US interests.
Y’all need to look at the larger game.
Root’s Teeth said:
Yeah, we’ve heard this before, and it’s as much an exaggeration now as it was years ago.
Some of the military aid sent to Israel is exempt.
But the larger claim — that Israel is the only country with an exemption — it’s also simply not true. Billions in military aid to Afghanistan and Iraq were unrestricted and much found its way into Afghan and Iraqi pockets. The aid sent to Aid to South Vietnam (see the PBS chart) was also unrestricted.
(And by the way, with regard to PBS’ total costs of military aid to South Vietnam, the total costs of military aid to South Vietnam is grossly under-estimated.)
If you have a USG source that proves your claim, link it.
There is certainly some aid that goes to US contractors, but the vast majority of USG non-military aid goes to local contractors and businesses, as well as into bureaucrats’ pockets. Even in Gaza and the West Bank, there are Palestinian businessmen who have or are getting rich by winning bids for contract work for American aid agencies.
Even when an American contractor wins a bid for USAid work, they hire local subcontractors.
Even Blackwater’s offices in Iraq were filled with Iraqis — as in, Iraqis GETTING PAYCHECKS.
Israel pretty much had little choice in going nuclear. Them doing so is the main reason no Arab nations have tried recently to invade (the other reason being they kept getting their conventional clocks cleaned). As long as they keep to themselves, Arab rulers all know those Israeli nukes will never be used on them.
On the other hand, Israel knows if a) it had no bomb, and b) if the Arab nations do, IT WILL BE EXTERMINATED. Nothing has changed since the Nazi Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.
And what kind of libertarian uses the phrase “allowed Israel to go nuclear”? Who “allowed” the United States to go nuclear? Interventionist horse manure.
There’s so much hocus in the rest of that paragraph it’s not even worth addressing.
So we’re *obligated* to sell American technology to every Tom, Dick, and Grand Mufti of Jerulsalem and his Saudi prince benefactor who wants one?
Bunk.
We didn’t sell an AWACS plane to Switzerland either, but they don’t seem to be complaining.
Yeah, kinda like the 100k soldiers stationed in Europe are actually guns aimed at German heads to benefit Russia.
Oh, and like those troops don’t spend mountains of their pay in local shops.
So does everyone.
Which is why the only proper position for a libertarian to adopt is to bring all the troops home, end all foreign meddling, and abolish all overt and covert military, non-military, humanitarian, and whatever else kind of aid – regardless of who the recipient nation, group, tribe, or whetever is.
Germany? Germany?
Right. No other nation on earth has a public relations department.
You’re a genius.
I wasn’t talking about the pro-Israel blogosphere or other pundits. I don’t give a flying flip about them. Nor do I care what Nazis and communists think.
Regardless, I don’t want libertarians copying their talking points.
I was talking about LIBERTARIANS and how we present ourselves.
My ire goes to EVERY country which violates basic human rights. I’m completely consistent in this. I don’t single Israel; out.
My disgust toward violators of basic human rights extends to this country, too. I try to expose and denounce every drone murder and act of torture that I read and hear about.
Marc said: “So far the only thing you’ve said is — basically — that Israel is at fault for everything going on in the Middle East.”
You’re smarter than that, Marc. THAT’S WHAT YOUR ARTICLE IS ABOUT, so that’s why I discussed Israel.
The special way we’re all supposed to talk about Israel confounds me.
Jill Peatt said:
Which is perfect. That’s all I said in that entire article.
However, it really doesn’t sound like you mean it, because later you said:
Make up your mind.
The same year as Israel was bombing Gaza, Boko Haram killed an estimated 2,000 people in its jihad to expand its self-declared Islamic caliphate in northern Nigeria, an area with a heavy Muslim population. On January 7 2015, it killed 2,000 Nigerian civilians by burning down the town of Baga in the north-eastern state of Borno. Boko Haram is covertly funded by Muslim countries — which collect most of their wealth from the oil they steal from under the feet of their people.
In other words, YOU fund them every time you buy gas.
On the other side, almost half a billion dollars went to the government of Nigeria in 2014, in the form of USAid, surveillance & intelligence, direct military aid, and covert aid.
What did all that welfare buy?
It helped the Nigerian government continue its long history of corruption and torture of innocents, that’s what. Much of that half-bill went into corruptocrats’ pockets.
This mirrors US government spending everywhere else. In the Middle East, the US military props up most of those Muslim military dictatorships with training, direct and indirect military aid, and other bennies.
But Nigeria — or the dozen-odd Arab nations that fund Boko Haram — aren’t even on your radar for criticism, are they?
You only have outrage for the Jews?
The whole point of my article was that Libertarians absolutely must acknowledge that there are not really any “good” actors anywhere — all recipients of US “humanitarian” and military assistance are all corrupt welfare whores.
Libertarians must avoid sharing rhetoric with commies and Nazis — otherwise we will become associated with commies and Nazis in the minds of the general public.
As the article states, you’re not anti-Semitic unless you choose to get outraged at Israel but turn a blind eye towards everything that happens around them. If that’s you, well…
Who the hell is arguing that we do? I certainly wasn’t, in fact I have repeatedly called for an end to every penny of the $65 billion in non-military aid the USG sends into pestholes around the world; as well as and end to the roughly $250 billion in military aid and welfare the USG spends overseas.
I would never claim to be an intelligent person, but who the fuck has blinders on about it?
I am realistic about both Israel and its opponents. YOU attack only Israel, and turn a blind eye towards the sins of its neighbors, including the Palestinians.
So far the only thing you’ve said is — basically — that Israel is at fault for everything going on in the Middle East.
The summer of 2014 changed my view of Israel forever. The slaughter of more than 2000 people, almost 500 of them being children, cannot be ignored or forgotten. Yes, I know Hamas is bad, yes I know Palestians shoot rockets into Israel, but the tremendous literal overkill last summer was horrifying.
It’s impossible to be a peace activist without honestly acknowledging that Israel is a huge part of the problem in the middle east. It’s very strange to me that otherwise intelligent people have blinders on about it.
I don’t like to talk about it here, but there’s so much I disagree with in Marc’s article that I can’t keep silent. As I’ve said before, Israel is all grown up and doesn’t need us to protect her anymore. As an adult, she needs to be judged accordingly.
There is nothing about Israel that isn’t true about a hundred other US allies. … My main concern with Libertarians singling out Israel for our ire and derision
Israel’s critics aren’t singling out Israel. Rather, it’s Israel’s supporters that have (very successfully) singled out Israel for favorable treatment. Israel’s critics are only reacting to that.
* Israel not only gets a lion’s share of military aid dollars, it is the ONLY recipient of U.S. military aid that is not required to spend all that money on American companies. U.S. military aid is partially a subsidy to U.S. weapons manufacturers. But Israel demanded (and got) the right to be an exception — that they can spend U.S. military aid on Israeli companies.
* All that “foreign aid” that goes to other nations, like Afghanistan. How much of it actually goes to Afghans? I assume that the lion’s share of the money “given” to Iraq, Afghanistan, and other nations, actually goes to U.S. companies, who then build stuff in Afghanistan. But most of the money we give to Israel, goes to Israelis.
* Root liked to claim that the U.S. gives as much military aid to Arab nations as to Israel. But it’s not comparable. The U.S. allows Israel to buy first class weapons (the latest fighter jets, etc.), even allowed Israel to go nuclear, whereas much of the military aid that goes to Arab nations is for guns and tanks — to repress their own populations for America’s — and Israel’s — benefit.
So U.S. military spending “for” Arabs is largely for Israel’s benefit — to enable pro-Western dictators to repress their own anti-Israeli populations.
Back in the 1980s, the Saudis tried to buy AWAC (radar) planes — with their own money. Radar planes are largely defensive. Israel objected, because it often flies fly into Arab airspace.
After Reagan sold the AWACS to the Saudis — and GAVE additional foreign aid to Israel to “compensate” them for the sale.
* Some of what’s calculated as U.S. “military spending for the Arabs” is actually money spent on U.S. troops stationed in Arab countries. These American troops are allegedly “defending” the Arabs, but really, they’re an American gun pointed at Arabs’ heads — which benefits Israel.
Israel’s supporters brag that Israel, unlike the Arabs, doesn’t want U.S. troops on their soil. Israel only wants free weapons to defend themselves.
Well, of course they don’t! I’m sure many Arab nations would prefer the freedom to buy first class weapons — including nukes — so that they too can defend themselves. But the U.S., and Israel, won’t permit it. Instead, the Arabs are “given” American troops to “defend” the Arabs with guns that can always be turned on them.
Which would you rather? The freedom to buy guns to defend your own home? Or to have a soldier stationed in your house, watching you, allegedly defending you, but ever ready to point his gun at you?
Imagine if the government gave guns to your neighbor, and stationed a soldier in your home. Would you feel you were being treated equally with your neighbor?
* Another reason Israel SHOULD be “singled out” is because it’s America’s only foreign aid recipient with this false moral halo. Yes, there are plenty of countries just as bad, or worse. But no one claims that any of the dictatorships we befriend or support are bastions of freedom. There’s no need to publicly condemn Saudi Arabia or China or Russia are repressive. Zimbabwe is a dictatorship. DUH! But hordes of pundits, left and right, unjustly praise Israel, resulting in special, favorable treatment. THAT’S why Israel’s critics “single out” Israel — in response to its lying supporters.
People can legitimately have different opinions on their net assessment of Israel: bastion of liberal democracy and human rights, or apartheid state practicing an unjust perpetual occupation. I think there’s a grain of truth to the argument both ways, and I think it’s both true that the Israeli government is a lot less tyrannical than its neighbors, and also commits many acts which are illegitimate and unjust. Then I again I think that also describes the American government.
However, I don’t at all agree with Marc’s assertion that American libertarians don’t have any business criticizing any government except the American one, any more than I would say it’s wrong for Canadian or British or German libertarians to oppose actions of the U.S. government. Libertarianism is a universal and international philosophy, there is nothing about supporting the non-aggression principle and believing in a freer society and voluntary interaction, which makes only the governments between the Rio Grande and the 49th Parallel legitimate targets of opposition. Opposing the aggressive or freedom-violating actions of foreign governments serves a two-fold purpose: first, it’s right and correct on its own merits just as much as criticizing the U.S. gov’t, and more selfishly and pragmatically it also serves as a foil and counter-example for us to direct American gov’t and public opinion away from. That’s equally true whether we’re talking Zimbabwean hyperinflation or Venezuelan economic collapse or Russian election rigging or Chinese political prisoners or a Greek debt crisis, and it’s also true of complaints against the governments on either side of the Arab-Israeli conflict. It also applies to opposing foreign governments, removed from the question of whether that government is a U.S. ally or beneficiary of American aid.
If we were to abolish foreign aid, end the income tax and eliminate prohibitions (if any exist) on private giving to foreign countries, Israel would be the one country on the list of US aid recipients that would get a nearly complete replacement of government aid with private funds.
There is a deeper issue. Libertarians have a civil liberties critique of Israeli government policy, and even a free market critique of Israel’s state interventionism in economic matters. But every other country in the Middle East has a worse record on civil liberties, and only Lebanon has an economy with as much freedom and private enterprise as Israel has. Yet the political fringe in the USA – the left is worse than Libertarians on this – seem to display a special animus toward Israel. How often do American radicals – leftist or libertarian – criticize the absolute statism of Saudi Arabia, or the denial of rights to Palestinian guest workers in Kuwait?
This is all complicated by the fact that legitimate criticisms of Arab statism has been used to justify US military intervention in the Middle East. But a movement against such interventionism that includes people who can’t seem to stop criticizing Israel is not going to have any effect in America, except to give the interventionists an excuse to tie Libertarians and other radicals in with the Nazis and Communists that really do oppose the existence of Israel.
Thanks, Paulie. So, per capita, we give more money to Afghanistan. Wow, if I wasn’t already wound up about a couple of other world issues, this would probably piss me off.
In any case, I try to treat all Middle Eastern countries, and all other countries, the same. We shouldn’t be sending money to any of them. Now, I’m sure someone will call me anti-Semitic, but, oh well. I just don’t think the US can afford to give away our money.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid#Recipients
I try to treat Israel the same as all the other countries in the Middle East, but this country continues to give them privileges that we shouldn’t be giving them, in my view. Israel really doesn’t need our money or weapons anymore. They’re all grown up now.
Hmmm … why do I get the feeling Marc is the recent recipient of a Carol Moore rant? 😉
Been there.
Hmmm, do we give $10,000,000 per day to any other country?