Pro-Choice Libertarians: Libertarian Principles and the Consequences of Abortion Prohibition


From ProChoice Libertarians


(Note: in near final draft stage, 5/13/16)

Individual liberty, self-determination, private property, and limited government are all libertarian principles that logically lead to the pro-choice position. To sacrifice existing persons for the sake of future generations—in slave labor camps, involuntary servitude, compulsory childbearing, or life-threatening abortions—violates everything we hold dear.
Sharon Presley, “A Libertarian Feminist Case for Abortion Rights”

Libertarian Principles

Below are often stated principles held by libertarians, whether anarchists, decentralists or minarchists, and the application of these principles to the abortion issue. Most of these principles are shared by libertarians who are against abortion but do not want the government to restrict or prohibit it; they want government kept out of the issue.

Individual liberty

  • Personhood and individual rights exist only after birth when a birthed child becomes self-conscious, capable of cognition and able to engage in purposeful action to affect their environment. The sperm and egg and fetus may be alive, but that does not mean they are persons with rights.
  • A living person’s first responsibility is to themselves. A woman should not have to sacrifice their life and liberty for the biological survival of a pre-human fetus. Forcing women to do so implies every person has a moral duty to provide bodily tissue and fluids to help others survive.
  • Every person should be free to defend themselves from anyone or anything acting forcefully against their liberty, including a fetus not wanted within their body.
  • The freedom to abort must be contrasted with prohibition of abortion leading to compulsory childbearing and the use of a woman’s body as a natural resource or a chattel slave. Childbearing results in far more medical problems for women that than legal abortion. It is even deadly for some women. Over 300,000 women a year worldwide die during pregnancy or delivery(WHO) and over 600 in the United States.(CDC)
  • Through most of history community standards condoned abortion; later common and statutory law ignored abortion, seeing it at as “self-evident” that women should be free to abort a fetus.(Joffe)
  • Women should retain the liberty to use the drug RU-486 and other “contragestive” drugs that prevent gestation of the fetus in the first days after accidental or forced insemination.
  • Liberty means that only voluntary means of convincing a woman to give birth to child are libertarian.  Thus only moral suasion and/or privately funded economic aid are libertarian ways to discourage abortion.


  • The human right of self-determination confers liberty on human beings and makes them free moral agents.
  • Since the woman is a free moral agent with sole dominion over her life, her claim to life is stronger than that of the fetus.
  • The woman’s right to self-determination means the choice to carry the child to term is hers alone, even if the father prefers she abort.
  • Self-determination means individuals cannot be forced to abide by an onerous contract that makes them a defacto “slave”. That includes any alleged “contracts” with a fetus.
  • Women may agree to abortion restrictions in order to enter a specific private, contractual community. However, their right to self-determination means they are not a slave to that contract and may quit the community to seek an abortion.  Similarly a man cannot be forced to honor an onerous child support contract that makes him a defacto slave. If a woman has no contract involving the father in the raising of a child, the ensuing moral responsibility for the child is hers alone.
  • Some libertarians believe it is wrong to carry to term a fetus so deformed that it can never care for itself or live as a truly self-conscious, self-determining person.

Private property

  • Rights of life and liberty – and control of one’s body – are based on self-ownership. One’s body is one’s property.  The analogy often is used describing the fetus as a trespasser, a “stowaway” or even a parasite. The woman has a right to eject the unwanted intruder from her property, i.e., her body, in order to preserve her own life and liberty.
  • A woman has a right to right to control her pregnancy until the point of birth, be it normal or premature, natural or via caesarian section.
  • If the government can force a pregnant woman to allow her body, i.e. her property, to be used to service a fetus, it can force any one to do with their body or property anything government considers to be a service to others or to the state itself.

Limited government

  • In this issue, as in so many, most libertarians believe “the government is the problem, not the solution.” Government should be kept out of the issue.
  • Most abortion prohibitionists oppose abortion on dubious religious grounds or use logically and factually flawed arguments which in no way support any governmental right to restrict a woman’s liberty, self-determination or right to control her own body.
  • Some abortion prohibitionists clearly oppose abortion on personal or racial grounds and use the state to promote their agenda. There is a great demand to adopt healthy white babies, and a defacto traffic in them, while children of color shuffle through the foster care system and disabled children often are confined to impersonal institutions. Abortion prohibitionists rarely seek to adopt these children.
  • In 1973 Supreme Court Roe v. Wade decision made most abortion legal. About five years later Republicans latched on to the issue to build a “values based” party which would allow Christian institutions to avoid federal regulations.(Politico) In the last 15 years especially Republicans have milked the issue of regulating and banning abortion to help them take over more state governments. Since 2010 17 states have passed laws banning abortion after 18 or 20 weeks, alleging the fetus’ ability to feel pain. Twelve states require doctors to inform women of this alleged pain. They also have ramped up regulation of abortion clinics far beyond what is medically necessary, shutting down many clinics permanently.(Vice1) In 2015 alone U.S. states introduced over 350 anti-abortion bills and passed 47 of them.(Reason)  Between over-regulation and violence against abortion clinics, since 2011 162 clinics have shut down nationwide.(Vice2)
  • Abortion laws, like most other laws, only multiply and become progressively worse. Now women are being prosecuted on flimsy evidence for miscarriages(Alternet) and some states have considered laws requiring that every miscarriage be reported under penalty of law.(Minnpost)(ThinkProgress) Note that starting in 1994, for several years the Libertarian Party  “Women’s rights and abortion” plank denounced these kids of laws: restrictions on the sale of menstruation-inducing contragestive pills; legislation restricting women’s access to abortion or other reproductive health services, including requiring consent of the prospective father, waiting periods, and mandatory indoctrination on fetal development; state-mandated abortions; mandating or prohibiting prenatal testing, Caesarean births, fetal surgery, voluntary surrogacy arrangements, home births; restrictions on anyone, including children, from learning about human sexuality, reproduction, birth control, or related medical or biological technologies. Almost all of this language has been struck from the Libertarian Party platform.
  • Abortion-prohibitionists often call abortion “murder” but deny the logical implication of “murder”. Because abortion always is intentional and premeditated, it technically is first degree murder. This necessitates prosecution, conviction, prison, fines and even execution of women who have abortions, as well as of doctors or others who provide them. Moreover, conspiracy to murder charges could be leveled against anyone advocating abortion, advertising abortion services in other states or lobbying to overturn laws against abortion.  Already one state has permitted a ballot access measure declaring abortion murder.(DailyBanter)

Consequences of Prohibition

Libertarians often talk about the “unintended consequences” of laws. However, over a century of abortion prohibition have dramatized the consequences. Yet many abortion prohibitionists – and even well-intentioned libertarians who want the LP to take no position on the issue – have no comprehension of the negative consequences of unwanted pregnancies for women.

  • Abortion restrictions predominantly affect girls and women who cannot afford, financially and/or logistically, to go to another state or another country for an abortion. They either bear unwanted children or suffer dangerous amateur or illegal abortions.
  • Abortion prohibition creates a black market in abortions, leading to unprofessional, unsanitary and unsafe abortions that risk the life of the mother, often leading to infection, mutilation, infertility and even death.  Self-induced, at home abortions also skyrocket under prohibition and are equally dangerous.
  • Girls and women who have suffered the trauma of being impregnated through incest or rape are further traumatized by being forced to carry the fetus to term. The fetus also is affected by the trauma; many unwanted children suffer developmental effects from the mother’s trauma.(BirthPsychology) The woman whose rights are being violated is far more the victim than a fetus which is not a human being with rights.
  • Many womens’ trauma is compounded because of unnecessary interference with abortion after 21 weeks. Only 1.5 percent abortions occur after 21 weeks’ gestation.  Well-known reasons for later term abortions include medical issues threatening the life of the mother and severely deformed fetus that would not survive long outside the womb. Later term abortions also result from young girls’ ignorance of pregnancy; depression, illicit substance abuse or inability to decide; conflict with a male partner or domestic abuser or lack of access to abortion.(Rewire)(Wiley)(Hairpin)
  • Women who cannot afford to overcome abortion restrictions often end up having one or more children who require tens of thousands of dollars a year in state support through financial support, food stamps, rent subsidies, education and job grants, etc.
  • Government regulation of abortion only has encouraged abortion prohibition fanatics to bomb and burn down abortion facilities, harass, threaten and even shoot abortion clinic doctors and staff, and trick, harass, stalk and terrorize pregnant girls and women at abortion clinics and hospitals.(Founders)(NARAL)
  • Women prosecuted for these crimes are often sent to prison and their existing children neglected or abused by relatives or the state foster care systems.  This starts a life of dependency and crime for many such children who end up on welfare or in prison.(Voices)
  • Given the burdensome and even horrific consequences of prohibiting abortion, libertarians should never apply the term “pro-life” to those who would outlaw abortion; only those who advocate  voluntary means to convince women to bring a fetus to term should be called “pro-life”. Under prohibition many women die from unwanted pregnancies or illegal abortions. Those who would use the state to regulate and restrict abortions must be called “abortion interventionists”; those who would forbid some or all abortion must be called “abortion  prohibitionists”. These are the accurate terms pro-choice and anti-prohibition libertarians must use.

It should now be clear to any libertarian that the reasons for supporting womens’ right to abortion, or at least for keeping government out of the matter, are very strong. They are based on libertarian principles of individual liberty, self-determination, property rights and limited government.  And it is clear that the consequences of restricting and outlawing abortion can be catastrophic for women.  Statists are using abortion as yet one more excuse to intrude on every aspect of our lives.

The references to this article are here .

55 thoughts on “Pro-Choice Libertarians: Libertarian Principles and the Consequences of Abortion Prohibition

  1. Caryn Ann Harlos

    ==Personhood and individual rights exist only after birth when a birthed child becomes self-conscious, capable of cognition and able to engage in purposeful action to affect their environment. ===

    So two days before natural childbirth, there isn’t a person with rights. That is monstrous. This exact kind of argument is used to justify infanticide.

  2. Caryn Ann Harlos

    And these monstrous statements:

    ==If a woman has a right to abort a fetus at any point prior to birth, this also implies the right to terminate the life of the fetus as well. Abortion is not a discrete act; it is an ongoing process that begins within the. woman’s body and continues outside it. If she has a right to the procedure of abortion, she has a right to the entire procedure—otherwise the so-called right is meaningless. Since the purpose of abortion is not just to terminate the pregnancy but to avoid bearing the child, what is necessary is not just the removal of the fetus (otherwise she could just bring it to term and give it up for adoption), but its death.==

    ==The libertarian principle of private property logically entails a woman’s right to control her pregnancy totally until the point of birth dictated by natural forcesÑthat is, until a normal or premature delivery or caesarian section. This includes the right to terminate the life of the fetus during the abortion procedure at any time prior to delivery.==

  3. Michelle

    More importantly, the child has not only been born but is NO longer acting upon and using person’s.

    It is inescapable. Pregnancy is acting upon a person’s body. We have an inviolable right to determine who or what may use our bodies and for how long.

  4. Michelle

    Here is a synopsis of the Anti-Choice Libertarian case for abortion and criminality:

    “All pregnancy that does not produce viable issue, regardless of cause, should result in criminal investigation.
    Women should have their menstrual flow analyzed each month for proof of legitimate menstruation. This shall commence upon menarche. Women may only be exempted from this by producing evidence of pregnancy or sterility.
    Spontaneous abortions (euphemistically called “miscarriage”) should be considered suspect and criminally investigated.
    Stillbirths should be similarly considered suspect and criminally investigated.
    Ectopic pregnancies are still pregnancies, and must be carried to term.*
    Molar pregnancies are still pregnancies, and must be carried to term.*
    “Therapeutic abortion” postpartum for “products of conception” is still an abortion, and should be considered criminal abortion.
    IUDs, by preventing implantation, are considered abortifacients by some, so they should also be criminalized.
    Hormonal birth control is considered abortifacient by some, and so these should likewise be criminalized. This includes allegedly “therapeutic” use.
    The morning after pill is also criminalized.
    In recognition of the part of men in conception,
    All men should be sterilized at puberty. Current medical technology allows for reversible sperm inhibition (Vasalgel); reversal of the process should only take place with the notarized and consenting presence of a female partner.
    All men should have their ejaculate tested for presence of sperm on a regular basis. Presence of sperm without a conception and pregnancy agreement with a partner should be criminalized.
    All men must post a bond against the possible costs of childrearing.
    All infants should have DNA tested against possible paternity. Those whose parentage cannot be verified will be allotted funds from the general pool of male childrearing bonds.
    All vaginal/uterine issue should be examined, and anything determined to contain DNA evidence of paternity shall result in the criminal prosecution of the involved male, as an accessory to abortion.
    In order to remedy the horrors of unadopted children, all adoptions will take place on a first come, first-served basis, without regard for age, or any other matching criterion.
    All IVF requires an affidavit of guaranteed implantation, whether into the egg producer or surrogate.
    Any implements that might conceivably be used for artificially inducing abortion should be regulated as a potential murder weapon. This includes vacuum sealers, knitting needles, and hangers.
    All implements potentially used for surgical abortion procedures must be sealed under lock and only unsealed by specific judicial decree.
    The only female surgical sterilization available should be complete oophorectomy and hysterectomy.

    * miracles happen; all pregnancies are blessings, if you weren’t willing to die for the child, you should not have allowed yourself to be impregnated.

    The only point I am not clear on is whether the pregnancy related death of a woman should be charged as murder against the impregnating male.

    In the interest of space, I have not gone into the ramifications of the precept that any action that might harm the fetus should be charged as abuse, nor into the concept that maternal support being of utmost importance to the developing child, all mothers should be supported by the state.

    Just a modest proposal. Doesn’t even go as far as Enver Hoxha’s attempt to keep all Albanian women constantly pregnant.”

  5. Matthew Cholko

    I don’t need all these fancy arguments. The fact is, prohibiting something that people demand is not going to get rid of it. Abortion ain’t going away. I prefer that we allow legitimate doctors to perform them, rather than force abortions into the black market.

    I’d be happy to see a big reduction in the number of abortions. So, I support removal of all restrictions on birth control products. They should be available to all people, regardless of age.

    I think it would also be helpful if retailers would sell birth control products, such as condoms, Plan B, spermidicdes, and the like, in vending machines. The reality is that even though many of these products are available “over the counter” in many places, they still require one to interact with another human to obtain them. That can be embarrassing for some people. I’d like to see this barrier removed too.

  6. Joe Wendt

    IMHO, I think the right to life is extremely important. How can one be free if from conception they are technically someone else’s property to be “disposed of” if desired? How can we have rights if we do not have the right to be born? It just irks me to hear the arguments to terminate a live from people who extol individual liberty.

    I also feel the “need” for an abortion is no longer necessary given modern contraceptive medical technology. I would love to see various forms of contraceptives in vending machines for convenience, but contraceptives are easily available to most people now. Even in the case of rape, as Ron Paul once pointed out, a woman can get an injection to prevent pregnancy at the ER. I just don’t buy the medical necessity argument, again just my opinion.

  7. Anthony


    The irony being that Caryn is an indefatigable asset for the LP…yet one who considers Johnson’s apostasy on the freedom of association issue being a deal breaker even though the change she wants in the abortion plank would surely have a far greater negative impact (be prepared for a GOP lite takeover) than nominating Johnson would (which in and of itself does not change the platform).

  8. Jay Wildwood

    “I don’t need all these fancy arguments. The fact is, prohibiting something that people demand is not going to get rid of it. Abortion ain’t going away. I prefer that we allow legitimate doctors to perform them, rather than force abortions into the black market.”

    Do you apply the same logic to hitmen? There is a demand for them as well.

  9. Melinda Pillsbury-Foster

    Barry Goldwater would have a greed. Below is from my book, out this week.

    I am pro-life for myself and counseled women for the Right to Life in the late 70s. I quite the day they began their campaign to make the choice illegal. Nice to see someone take up this issue again.

    1. What policy should be followed on gays serving in the military?

    “You don’t have to be straight to shoot straight.” – Barry Goldwater

    2. If elected, would you support a woman’s right to have an abortion?

    “Today’s so-called ‘conservatives’ don’t even know what the word means. They think I’ve turned liberal because I believe a woman has a right to an abortion. That’s a decision that’s up to the pregnant woman, not up to the pope or some do-gooders or the Religious Right. It’s not a conservative issue at all.” ~Barry Goldwater

    When Goldwater observed the right trying to use government to enforce private morality he spoke up for women’s right to abortion and gay rights. – The Political Legacies of Barry Goldwater and George McGovern: Shifting … By Jeffrey J. Volle
    [ goldwater]

    Goldwater and his wife were founding members of Planned Parenthood in Arizona.

    3. Do you support legalization of marijuana?

    Goldwater endorsed an Arizona initiative to legalize medical marijuana.

    4. Will you support an investigation on the Federal Reserve, the malfeasance which has taken place in banks and financial institutions related to foreclosures, robosigning, and other questionable practices?

    “The accounts of the Federal Reserve System have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress, and manipulates the credit of the United States, and for that matter, the credit of the entire world.”
    ~ Warning by Senator Barry Goldwater
    5. What is your position on damage to private property and health resulting from oil spills and fracking?

    Position on damage to private property and health resulting from oil spills and fracking.

    “While I am a great believer in the free enterprise system and all that it entails, I am an even stronger believer in the right of our people to live in a clean and pollution-free environment.” ~Barry Goldwater

  10. Matthew Cholko

    No, I don’t apply the same logic, as the same logic does not apply. Though a few people will throw out the phrase “abortion is murder”, essentially nobody actually believes that.

  11. Carol Moore/Secession.Net

    There’s no doubt the Republican party has pushed abortion prohibition as a wedge issue to consolidate their power. (And the prohibitionists want to bring lots of those types into the party by getting rid of the abortion plank.) They push a lot of phony religious arguments about god putting the soul in the body at conception; phony arguments about personhood; phony concern for the unborn (who they’d starve after birth by eliminating welfare needed by women forced to give birth and their sometimes physically disabled and mentally traumatized kids for the rest of thei lives); trumped up statistics as to why women have late term abortions. They’ve convinced a whole generation of tenderhearted young women to be against their own interests and to let the state control their body. Or are all those girls committed to being virgins til marriage and getting a real good marriage contract so the man has to give him 80% of his income for the rest of their lives after they divorce?? Naaah… First time they get drunk and pregnant they run off and get an abortion. They they let the phony pro-life guilt trips turn them into pro-lifers again and work harder to restrict other people’s freedom. VERY SAD….

  12. Carol Moore/Secession.Net

    As someone else already alluded to: it is pretty absurd we have one special interest group trying to take abortion out of the platform, while another is screaming that any man who claims he’s a woman MUST be let into women’s bathrooms, shower rooms, fitting rooms, locker rooms, womens shelter and even prisons.

    (Dozens of rapists and women murders have lawsuits against various states to move to women’s prisons and a few have succeeded.)


  13. Jay Wildwood

    Ms. Moore,

    You sound a bit unhinged. How many rapes and murders have actually been committed by transgender people in public restrooms? I’ve read that the answer is zero, but even if you do dig up some sensational incident or two, is it above the statistical “noise level” of crimes committed by other people? Seriously…do you believe someone who is willing to break major felony laws against rape and murder will be stopped by a restroom use ordinance?

    Ironically for someone who rails against Republicans, this is exactly the sort of nonsense that is quickly pushing mainstream, non-crazy Republicans out of the GOP. Who wants to be in a party with people driven to a mass hysteria by the non-existent transgender crime wave in public restrooms? All while the Trump nomination throws overboard the very fiscal conservatism that made the GOP the lesser evil in the eyes of many. If only there was a moderate, sane, gradualist party that wanted to incrementally move this country in the direction of smaller and less interventionist government on fiscal, social and foreign policy matters alike, and eschewed anarchists, troofers, racists and extremists…

  14. Melinda Pillsbury-Foster

    What are you talking about? Abortion is not murder because murder applies to those who have entered the human arena of social action. It is tough to build a set of rules on which people can agree – but Natural Rights has worked pretty well. The concept of ‘Natural Rights’ is not universally agreed on by all cultures, however. This is why the arena for social action is different in different cultures.

    In our culture everyone owns their own body. Therefore, women own their bodies and control their bodies absolutely. It is true that in our culture people, mostly men, would like to change this as a means for controlling women.

    You can skew the facts, ignore the facts, and try to change the premises but all of these ignore the fact we are animals trying to reduce conflict.

    Those who disagree with abortion have an avenue for changing the choices made by others. They can offer to help them using their own resources. It is inappropriate to use laws. However, there are actions for the violation of natural rights which should be noticed and tort actions which should be filed to confirm the rights of women to their bodies. One of these is the cost of wrongful impregnation in the case of non-consensual sexual intercourse. Others are marriage law, which violates the concept of Natural Law, licensing something which should be a matter of private contract.

    Strange things happen when we confuse laws of nature (consistent and provable) with human laws.

    Arguing that removing the fuel cap will keep the car from working is not supported by fact nor does the car or the gas cap have any natural rights. (Joke) Gotta laugh sometimes.

  15. Melinda Pillsbury-Foster

    Hi Carol!

    On bathrooms – people should decide what kinds and configurations of facilities they will have and these should not be subject to public policy. This is an inappropriate use of law, enforcing the viewpoints of one group of people against others. This is another good reason why we should not have the State involved in education or other functions we can handle within our communities or privately by those individuals involved. If you are transgendered, be that. If you are whatever, be that. This is the point of being individuals. But if you want a transgendered celebration birthday cake, or one to celebrate your decision to start a group marriage with Martians don’t demand I bake the cake for you. I retain my right to refuse.

  16. Carol Moore/Secession.Net

    Jay Wildwood: Those who are trying to force facilities to let men who claim to be women (whether they are trans or non-trans) into womens private bathrooms AND fitting rooms AND showers AND lockrooms AND womens shelters AND prisons are the one who are starting mass hysteria and not just by republicans; by radical feminists and democrats too.

    Before this trans who could pass could use the women’s rooms – and butch lesbians and manlier women were not harassed. Now both are harassed.


    The government should stay out of the abortion issue.

    The government should stay out of the bathroom/shower room/locker room/fitting room/womens shelter issue.

    Now whether the government can enforce antiabortion and pro-trans laws in Government facilities is another issue that can be debated another time among those who disagree.

    But government should not be prohibiting women’s action in one area and then forcing them to accept actions they dislike in another.

    Simple application of libertarian principles.

  17. Greg Jones

    “The government should stay out of the bathroom/shower room/locker room/fitting room/womens shelter issue.”

    I agree. Laws such as HB2 in NC are inappropriate.

  18. Carol Moore/Secession.Net

    As for crimes against women in womens private facilities and elsewhere by transgenders or males posing as transgenders, they are legion, and a number of feminist sites have logged them but I can’t provide all the links here. (I hope you aren’t against women’s self-defense against assault in such facilities?) OK, just put them on my public FB page so you can read them:

    The government should not be promoting crimes against women, be it by driving them to back alley abortion mills or forcing them to use public to male facilities that women and their providers of services would prefer to keep women only.

  19. Carol Moore/Secession.Net

    Greg Jones. You are correct. And don’t forget the original Charlotte law forcing facilities to do what the Charlotte politicians wanted and, of course, the Federal “anti-discrimination” laws that force facilities to do things for federal money. Of course, if those facilities STOP taking federal money that WOULD be a good thing!!!

  20. Melinda Pillsbury-Foster

    Hi Greg!

    You said, ” You are correct. And don’t forget the original Charlotte law forcing facilities to do what the Charlotte politicians wanted and, of course, the Federal “anti-discrimination” laws that force facilities to do things for federal money. Of course, if those facilities STOP taking federal money that WOULD be a good thing!!!”

    Could not agree more. But we need a way to either keep them from taking our money or the power to direct its use. I get into this in my book, which will be out in a few days.

  21. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Jay Wildwood, you make such excellent arguments about so many things–why do you invalidate that by using stupid pejoratives like “troofers”? Use of that word indicates an IQ of about 20.

  22. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    I don’t get Carol’s vigilance against transgenders, either. Maybe she lives in a world that convinces her that rapists are going to fool anyone by dressing as women? Maybe she’s willing to understand homosexuality/bisexuality, but nothing else on the gender spectrum?

    Pity. For an antiwar woman, it appears she condones violence for some souls who are different from her.

    (Having said that, OF COURSE the state shouldn’t have become involved in this. My reasons, however, are because each locality should be able to handle each public bathroom on the merits of that situation).

  23. Jay Wildwood

    Jill Pyeatt, well thank you, that’s certainly an upgrade from calling me a nazi troll (that one still has me scratching my head). I suppose we’ll have to disagree whether a higher intelligence level is revealed by the belief that Dick Cheney is a shape shifting lizard from outer space who brought down the twin towers with laser beams and holographic projections. Personally, I don’t find Lew Rockwell or Alex Jones to be all that useful, and in doing some reading about Libertarian history recently, it seems to me that the party made a big mistake in rejecting the candidacy of Earl Ravenal in 1983, from which it is still struggling to recover.

  24. Jay Wildwood

    Carol Moore, your links fail to show what you purport. Naturally, there will be some crimes committed by transgender individuals, as there will be by any population of similar size. What you’ve failed to show is any specific evidence that bathroom use ordinances have led to any appreciable difference in the crime rate. The argument that a government prohibition will somehow stop rapists and murderers from raping and killing women in restrooms reminds me of the equally absurd liberal argument that “gun free zones” will prevent mass shootings.

  25. Jill Pyeatt Post author

    Jay, I apologize for calling you our troll. I was wrong. You are welcome here.

    The extreme stress in my life is making me crankier than usual.

  26. Elizabeth Van Horn

    The issue is about the Libertarian Party plank on abortion. I support keeping the abortion plank in the LP.

    This is it:
    1.5 Abortion

    Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.
    There’s no hypocrisy regarding the rights of the individual and wanting government to stay out of people’s business. A transgender issue is also about the rights of the individual, as that is a matter of equal protection under the law. BOTH issues are about the rights of the individual. But, the Pro-Choice Libertarian group, and it’s cause, is about keeping the abortion plank on the LP platform. That is what we’re focusing on.

  27. Jay Wildwood

    It appears to be a divisive issue among libertarians. The party would most likely maximize its appeal by scrapping the plank. Personally I am not an extremist on either side of the issue; I oppose late term abortions but weigh more towards the choice side in the early stages. I think that’s a common sense middle ground position a lot of Americans hold, which is not represented by the extremists who have a disproportionate level of influence in Republican and Democratic primaries, caucuses and convention platform debates. There are a lot of issues where there is near-universal agreement among libertarians, so the party would still lean in a libertarian direction and expand its appeal by taking out the few issues where significant numbers of libertarians disagree. A platform does not have to cover every issue.

  28. Andy

    Nobody here said that Dick Cheney is a shape shifting lizard, and this is far from being a widely held belief in the 9/11 Truth Movement. The evidence does indicate that Dick Cheney played a high level role in carrying out the 9/11 attack (he was in control of the NORAD stand down), but this does not mean that he is a shape shifting lizard. Bringing up the shape shifting lizard theory is an obvious way to smear 9/11 Truthers.

  29. Greg Jones


    “… Bringing up the shape shifting lizard theory…”

    How do you define theory?

  30. steve m

    How many of us are pro poor woman having back alley coat hanger abortions?

    Anti-abortion won’t stop a woman from a wealthy or upper middle class family from traveling to a different state or country to have a safe abortion performed.

    So, just like the drug laws are primarily used to control poor colored people, anti-abortion laws are used to control poor woman.

    If all the effort and money that had been spent on fighting the politics of abortion had been used for sex education and providing access to contraceptives then we would be much closer to the goal of making the desire for abortion rare.

  31. Sharon Presley

    Some of the quotes above that are called “monstrous” are from my essay in defense of abortion and other reproductive freedoms. Monstrous? Really? Why isn’t it monstrous when girls and women who have been raped are forced to bear children conceived of rape? As someone who taught Psychology of Women for 20 years, I can assure this audience that rape is a horrible trauma and that bearing a child from this is even more horrible. But the truth is that anti-abortion people DO NOT care about women and girls. They don’t care how much they suffer. Have you ever heard any anti-abortion person talk in sympathetic terms about these women and girls? I haven’t and I’ve been reading their materials for years. It’s all about controlling women and girls. I could go into a long analysis about why they want to do that. In two words, here it is: authoritarian personality. Abject obedience to those in authority. Cruel punishment of those who deviate. Look it up. You’ll see. It sure isn’t about “life.” Because the life of the woman means nothing whatsoever to them. They want the woman or girl to be a baby machine for *their* morality which they want to shove down everyone else’s throats. They are the true monsters.

  32. Melinda Pillsbury-Foster

    I answered the phone for Right to Life in Los Angeles in the late 70s, before the organization shifted strategy and went for laws to end choice. I am pro-life but reject the use of unethical means, this includes passing laws. But added to this the women and girls who called would sometimes seem to be under some threat.

    Women seeking abortions included women who were clearly frightened and on several occasions I heard noises in the background which gave me to believe they were being told what to say on the phone. On one occasion the man I had heard actually took the phone away from her to yell at me for offering her alternatives.

    There were many different scenarios conveyed to me. But the personal relations were far more complex that I had realized. These were all very unhappy women and girls.

    To have the abortion, give the baby up, or raise it, all came with complications. Those who could talk about these were facing very real problems which were going to be life changing. I cannot imagine attempting to make that more complicated for the woman or girl going through it.

    It was, in all, an emotionally wrenching experience for me, too.

  33. Carol Moore/Secession.Net

    Just to clarify, I – who have dated at least 5 transvestites in my timeand lived with a transgender libertarian for 20 years – don’t call for violence vs. transgenders. The violence they fear is in the MEN’S ROOMS. It is MEN who must stop their violence, not women who must be forced to give up their privacy because of male violence.

    The transgender libertarian I live with gets, that so pardon me if it seems natural to make the libertarian argument to keep the government out of it.

    And then there’s the feminist argument that women have a right to identify and speak out about male violence, no matter who does it or where. Far too many women are more afraid of speaking out about the ugly incidents that happen to them than they are to report them.

    How many women here have experienced incidents that were defacto assaults and not gone to the police? And how many times? Or have you all led charmed – or extremely sheltered – lives?

    I’m not saying I’m the most gorgeous babe in the world, but over 60 years between slimy doctors/dentist, horny teens, horny 20s-40s guys, horny guys on the street & on subways, horny guys on dates, I’d say I’ve experienced 15 or 20 reportable incidents. (Not including dozens of dirty catcalls.) And even though I’m known for my big mouth, I never went to the police with any, including a couple I probably should have. That’s female reality…

    Women are taught to suffer in silence and curtailment of abortion rights nationwide is becoming yet again an issue where women are suffering way too silently.

  34. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    I was going to write something else but I find that I must address a true monster; Ms. Presley; who is, to put it charitably, a total ass>>>>, bi**H, and many other terms which would describe a sick sick sick FEMALE ( not woman ).

    I was so-called ” pro-choice ” many years ago. Why? Because I was stupid. I heard the claim of ” women’s rights ” and thought ” Who would take away their rights???” And so I was in that way ” pro-choice ” while not having the slightest clue of what that REALLY meant. Thankfully I experienced the blessings of my Creator who gave me a tremendous slap across the face to wake me up to the reality of abortion.

    By pure Divine Intervention I was introduced to a woman who was totally destroyed by an abortion. Why? Because her conscience over the death of her child led her to ” seize up ” like an engine without oil and she went from being a nurse to being a total invalid. And that was before I realized how the unborn children are shredded in the process. And that was before I understood that Planned Parenthood ( as shown so well at ) is a genocidal anti-humanity organization dedicated to killing the considered genetically inferior enemies ( mostly non-white ) of the self-considered genetically superior Eugenics loving anti-Christian Plantation Masters while hiding behind the claim of being a ” health clinic.”

    And what feminist groups came to the aid of this destroyed woman? Answer – ZERO. For the common pro-death claim is that an abortion is no different than brushing your teeth. Hence this lady was an embarrassment to the pro-death forces and was taken home to be cared for by her mother.

    So, Ms. Presley, your utterly preposterous and completely assinine claim that opposition to your pro-death beliefs/Religion is about ” controlling women ” simply gets close to the basic problem battle :

    On one side we have Christianity which celebrates the value of all human life from conception to death and which is founded by the ultimate ” Authoritarian Personality;” i.e.; God. His soldiers believe in the defense of, and value of, all human life. He tells us ” Thou shalt not kill ” and gives inherent value to each human.
    One the other side we have The Enemy of God; known as Satan: who is dedicated to the enslavement of humanity and whose joy is to destroy as many people as possible. Its soldiers ( like you ) believe in killing as many of God’s soldiers, and possible soldiers, as possible. Its soldiers say ” Screw you ” to God. ” We will kill as many as we like and whenever we like because YOU don’t give them inherent value – we do. And we can take that value away any time we like.”
    So, Ms. Presley, let’s get to The Bottom LIne – you simply despise God. It’s very simple. And it is YOU who doesn’t give a damn about women – unless they despise God just like you do.

    Only a total monster, and a very stupid one, would write what you have written.

    Enjoy your cats. Because, as I will explain later, no real man would marry a man hating freak like you unless he is a fool and/or a total wuss. You will find the proper, though bitter, fruits of your hatred of God at the end of your long soul cancer sickness although you are already terminal as shown by your screed.

    Teaching ” Psychology of Women ” for 20 years????? It obviously did nothing for you except to weld your soul hatred of men ever more deeply. But of course you approached it mechanistically; i.e.; that humans, yourself included, are simply biological machines. And you have reaped the reward as your writings are as soulless as you claim that humanity is.

    That is why ” Libertarian Feminists ” will be a true blessing for cats; the only animals who will be near them as any man with any brains will recognize the foaming-at-the-mouth hatred of men which has infected them and will understand how radioactive; total death believing, loving, and producing; they are.

  35. Kareem Caliente

    Presley says: “Why isn’t it monstrous when girls and women who have been raped are forced to bear children conceived of rape? ”

    Why give the child a death sentence for his father’s crime?

  36. Andre Levy

    In most western countries where abortion is restricted (e.g. Brazil, the largest catholic country on Earth), it is permitted in the obvious cases of violence or peril to the pregnant woman’s life or health. Rape is a rabbit out of a hat argument in this case.

    “Personhood and individual rights exist only after birth”

    You’ve just supported the right to kill a 8-month old fetus. Is that really your position?

    “The sperm and egg and fetus may be alive, but that does not mean they are persons with rights.”

    No, no one claims that egg and sperm have personhood and are deserving of individual rights. You just used as bathwater to – quite literally – throw the proverbial baby out along with them.

    “Forcing women to do so implies every person has a moral duty to provide bodily tissue and fluids to help others survive.”

    Now, that is the real issue. All the rest of it is just page filler. Do we have a moral duty of care for other persons within our reach, commensurate with our means to help them. I believe we do. But that’s a matter of principle. And principles cannot be justified; they can at best be cherished or lamented. I lament yours if you believe we don’t. That is, of course, what at the end of the day, makes you a libertarian and I a (classical) liberal, for you take individualism to mean selfishness, and an obsession with state oppression; and I take it to mean compassion for a fellow human being.

    “How selfish soever man may be supposed, there are evidently some principles in his nature, which interest him in the fortunes of others, and render their happiness necessary to him, though he derives nothing from it, except the pleasure of seeing it. Of this kind is pity or compassion, the emotion we feel for the misery of others, when we either see it, or are made to conceive it in a very lively manner. That we often derive sorrow from the sorrows of others, is a matter of fact too obvious to require any instances to prove it; for this sentiment, like all the other original passions of human nature, is by no means confined to the virtuous or the humane, though they perhaps may feel it with the most exquisite sensibility.”

    Adam Smith, ‘Theory of Moral Sentiments’, 1:1:1, 1759.

  37. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    When does a birthed child become ” self-conscious?” The comment by Ms. Presley which brings this question reveals the religious roots of Libertarian Feminism.

    The true desires of the anti-Christians; i.e.; Satanists/Humanists; have always been to expand abortion without ANY limits. First, it was only for the first trimester, which then expanded to the second, and then to the third, and then to the second before birth; known as partial-birth abortion – sucking out the childs brain when it was not yet fully out of the canal.

    Even that was not enough as Dr. Watson ( of Watson and Crick DNA Nobel Prize fame ) advocated the true goal of the pro-deathers – waiting for months after birth before making a decision to keep the child or throw it in the trash. THIS is what that phrase ” self-conscious ” refers to.

    For when is a child ” self-conscious?” It can be argued that such a state may not happen until, depending on the definition, 2, 3, or more years of age.

    That is why the Libertarian Feminist declaration was not even written by humans but by devolved females who, hiding behind ” Libertarian Principles,” are expressing Darwins ” survival of the fittest ” animal religion with themselves as the ” fittest.”

    Where normal/healthy/wholesome women – real human beings – will have an inherent love of children and will indeed give their lives in total joy at the prospect of having children and seeing them grow and develop into healthy adults the Libertarian Feminist curses her lot of being able to have children and curses the children which she can have or has had; especially boys – the targets of her special scorn, contempt, and spitting hatred. The screed of the Libertarian Feminist screams hatred for men, and life itself, from every sentence.

    Thankfully, and lawfully, the laws of nature will limit her to loneliness and the death of her love of death with her passing. For who could live with, much less have a deep bonding relationship, such a person who oozes hated for men from every cell of her body 24/7? Only a fellow demon/psychopath or a poodle/cat. It would be impossible for such a person to feel ” love ” in the normal human sense, and hence to find such love in real life, as her entire existence is an every breath desire to destroy the children of God rather than to nurture, love, and care for them as a true woman would and could.

    The problem is that Libertarian ( and any other ) Feminists are not content to carry their hate within themselves but must, on orders from their master The Enemy of God and as the dutiful zombies/vampires which they are, bite as many people as possible ( in preference young women/girls ) to spread their soul hatred to the rest of humanity.

    As her screed above demonstrates, The Undead never rest. They forever roam the night ( and bring the night/death with them where ever they go ) seeking to convert the living to their own nightmare existence ( not life ).

    The political; Libertarian, or any, Feminism; can only be changed from their existing ( not living ) death to life; i.e.; stopped; by the spiritual; i.e.; The Cross – the symbol of their hated enemy and the key to their salvation; the only thing which can raise them from the dead. Pro-Choice Libertarians is simply a temporal term for Satanist/Humanist Religious believers. No amount of sophistry can change this fundamental cornerstone of the issue.

  38. Kareem Caliente

    Levy said: “Do we have a moral duty of care for other persons within our reach, commensurate with our means to help them.”

    Only if we placed the other person in their current position. If I see you clinging on to a bridge for dear life and I’m just a passerby, I have no duty at all. I can shoot the bird at you, laugh at you, whatever. But if I begin to assist you, place you in a worse position and then withdraw, I owed you a duty and so I am legally liable for what happens.

    The child you created was placed in that position by your own actions. It is morally reprehensible to withdraw. Based on a basic tort principle, it should be illegal.

  39. steve m

    Don J. Grundmann,

    Some of us think you are a sick sick human for using your twisted belief in mythological as justification for forcing your beliefs on others. And in doing so causing physical and emotional harm to other people. I get it Don, you know that the only people you will be able to control is poor people. Rather then help them. Rather then educate them. You choose to make their lives worse. You are not part of the solution for reducing abortions you are the party that wants back alley abortions using coat hangers for poor woman.

    Count me among you detractors.

  40. Carol Moore/Secession.Net

    The minimalist Libertarian Party platform abortion plank simply reads: “Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.”

    For decades LP members have been barraged with divisive demands by abortion prohibitionist, some couched in the ridiculous and insulting rhetoric we see above. They even have infiltrated LP “Radicals”, demanding the LP abortion plank be removed and want to put more of prohibitionists on the LNC.

    If the LP deletes the plank these special interest fanatics will bring to the LP even more of their ilk to demand the LP call for restricting abortion. It you think that deleting the plank will be the end of the “Divisiveness” you are naive. It will only ramp up! Prohibitionists are relentless fanatics.

    The LP has been and will continue to be attacked by special interests wanting to protect government programs and extend government control. The LP has caved to them in the past on military issues and on marriage and is being pushed to agree that federal and state governments should enforce all manner of “anti-discrimination” laws. Whatever happened to keeping the government out of the marriage issue? Or private bathrooms? And the bedroom, in the abortion issue…..

    If the LP removes the abortion plank the liberal media will crow the LP has gone “anti-abortion” and the “right wing” media will celebrate and start lobbying to make the LP an anti-abortion party.

    Abortion prohibitionists, like other special interests, promise to provide to national and state parties and candidates money and workers if they relent on the issue. Some fall for it. Most just want to be left alone. But when you are running candidates for powerful office, powerful special interests wanting government restrictions and favors will NOT leave you alone. It’s the sad fact of politics… Give in once and they’ll just keep on bugging you to give in again and again and again…

  41. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    Steve m –
    A) What of your own ” twisted belief in mythological;” i.e.; your belief in the Religion of Evolution; and forcing your beliefs on others?
    B) What of the physical and emotional harm which this brings upon countless people?

    You see Steve you are simply fulfilling the wisdom of a sentence written thousands of years ago – ” The fool has said in his heart there is no God,”
    The God of Christianity actually brings freedom because when you tell Him to go to hell, as you have and do, then the vacumn is filled by His Enemy; i.e.; your Master. But you, as your foolish screed above so clearly shows, are far too much of a nitwit to have any understanding of what a slave you truly are.

    In the wars in our nation between the Armies of Life and Death ( inclusive of Libertarian Feminists and the Libertarian Party ) it is only the Pro-Life forces which educate ( tell the truth about abortion ), only the pro-life forces which provide help ( unwed mothers homes, adoption agencies, and countless other aids to children and mothers ), only the pro-life forces which improve the lives of women ( helping them in countless ways which death/pro-abortion people NEVER do ), and only the pro-life forces which bring true freedom to women.

    Besides the literally millions of dollars which pro-life groups give to children and mothers ( while pro-deathers give NOTHING ) only the pro-life forces care about the most important part of a woman – her soul.

    Of course these are things which you are obviously far too stupid to understand much less have the slightest care about.

  42. Carol Moore

    There have been discussions elsewhere about how if one thinks abortion is “infanticide” (which is defined as murder), as some mentioned above, then one wants laws against abortion at whatever point one thinks it becomes infanticide/murder. Isn’t that just common sense? Why deny it?

    As we’ve written above on the Pro-Choice Libertarians page: “Abortion-prohibitionists often call abortion “murder” but deny the logical implication of “murder”. Because abortion always is intentional and premeditated, it technically is first degree murder. This necessitates prosecution, conviction, prison, fines and even execution of women who have abortions, as well as of doctors or others who provide them. Moreover, conspiracy to murder charges could be leveled against anyone advocating abortion, advertising abortion services in other states or lobbying to overturn laws against abortion. Already one state has permitted a ballot access measure declaring abortion murder.”

  43. Melinda Pillsbury-Foster

    People had strong opinions about slavery as well. Slavery takes place within our social and economic context. This is a humanly created environment subject to human rules of right and wrong. Humanity decided slavery was wrong after thousands of years of asserting it was all right and good.

    Every aspect of normal reproduction, including the release of the egg from the ovary, fertilization by the sperm, implantation in (hopefully) the uterus, pregnancy, and birth are part of a biological process which existed prior to there being a human culture. We own ourselves absolutely because without self-ownership we cannot take the actions needed to survive. The same is true for any animal.

    It is our human culture which categorizes crimes, such as murder.

    Although it is painful to even contemplate the act of abortion it is the right, absolutely, of the woman to decide. Different women make different choices.

    I insisted if there was a possibility of choosing between my life and the baby’s the baby should live. That was my choice and my right. Each of us can choose as our conscience directs us.

    Rationalizing what is happening, however, is cowardly.

    What idiot started this asinine yammering about a fetus being a parasite?

  44. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    The fetus is considered a parasite because feminists hate men and consider them as the 24/7/365 enemy; therefore any sperm is considered an invader and thus ” logically ” ( from an anti-human demonic viewpoint ) the fetus is a product of that ” invasion ” and hence automatically is a ” parasite.”
    The viewpoints boil down to the religious vision of Christianity; where man and woman form the family and children are a gift from God to be cherished and nourished in love between the parents; vs Satanism/Humanism; where God does not exist, anyone ( 2 males, 2 females, or 2 or more anything ), or anything ( transgender, etc. ) can form a family, children are NOT born boy or girl but can be changed into whatever they want; i.e.; tell God to go to Hell; children are NOT a blessing but, more often than not, a curse and minimally a burden ( like a bag of rocks ) to carry through life, and the parents can have no love for God ( they despise Him ) much less for each other.
    2 totally different world views. 2 totally different religious bases. And, automatically, 2 totally different political expressions.
    In this case the Libertarians, as illustrated so well by the Libertarian Feminists, have chosen the Satanic/Humanist view of life as their political expression while the Constitution Party is the last party, excluding the non-Establishment republicans, which carries forth the Christian vision of life into a political expression.
    One party chooses death and another chooses life.
    That is the foundation of the fetus=parasite argument.

  45. Alicia McGowen

    Using bias words and acting as though a perfectly reasonable procedure done primarily in the first trimester is abhorrent is certainly cute, but not libertarian.

    If you believe that the government has some right to force women to become incubators even though we could all be educated about the many detrimental (and sometimes fatal) effects of pregnancy, the ability to get pregnant even after STERILIZATION, and so on, you might be a statist. There is no other excuse for adhering to some dogma where the joining of cells confers personhood upon us immediately. There is no other excuse for justifying the forced birth of children to unwilling mothers.

    Modern abortion is done via progesterone blocking agents in over 80% of cases. This is the same mechanism by which the body initiates a natural abortion. If you aren’t willing to let nature take its course in all other areas of your life, to eschew medical intervention, then you are quite simply a hypocrite. In most other cases of abortion in the 2nd or 3rd trimester, the mother either does not know she is pregnant due to having an IUD or some medical condition, or there is a severe fetal abnormality. No one is off getting a painful D&C because they’re some sick bastard who enjoys murdering babies. They get the infinitely more painful and expensive procedures done because it is necessary for some reason.

    Do you really object to a mother who was unknowingly pregnant for 17 weeks while snorting coke and shooting up heroin having an abortion instead of giving birth to a kid with CP or some equally terrible lifelong disability? Do you really have the moral authority to tell someone they’re wrong for sparing their child a life of pain if they have micro- or anencephaly, Trisomy 13, or some other awful condition that will end in death? Probably not.

    And you certainly cannot, as a Libertarian, push your religious or spiritual views on the rest of the country. Science and medicine do not support the notions pushed upon the public by the pro-life propaganda machine. From a secular perspective, any pro-life Libertarian is simply off the rails and needs to head straight back to the GOP. There is no secular argument that supports this agenda, and you will lose a goodly portion of Libertarians to the liberals if you try to eliminate freedom from the platform. I would choose personal liberty over fiscal responsibility every election if forced to. I know many others who came to the LP for the same reason — to have the right to CHOOSE. To choose drugs, to choose guns, to choose abortion, to choose anything that harms no other born person. Because no one gets an abortion for “convenience” or to be cruel. End of story.

  46. Don J. Grundmann, D.C.

    Ms. McGowen –
    A) ” Science and medicine do not support notions pushed upon the public by the pro-life propaganda machine”
    1) You mean like the ” notion ” of the value of human life? Yes, when you ” niggerize ” children by denying their inherent humanity; i.e.; they are simply a ” mass of cells ” – a machine and nothing else; then you can excuse their mutilation shredding and call the result ” freedom.”
    The unimaginable horror of being an ” incubator!!!” How could women throughout history stand such cruelty?
    Answer – They were indeed ” women,” who loved and valued both children and life itself, as compared to ” females ” ( defective/warped/inferior women ) who despise both children and life because their soul is infected with a foaming-at-the-mouth hatred of men, starting with their father.
    2) And what of the pro-death propaganda machine which bleats about ” choice ” when such a thing does not exist in our nation. True, REAL, ” choice ” would mean that women get ALL information about abortion; i.e.; both sides. But since the pro-death side dare not compare their ” product ” with the life side women are hence daily denied TRUE choice as the Death Industry knows they must be exploited in their most emotional condition/state before they have a chance to consider all of the consequences of the death of their child; the child which pro-death believers hold in such spitting contempt.
    3) I met a former Abortion Industry worker who told me the ‘ inside secret ” that the clinic workers considered all of the abortions to be men/boys. That way they can ignore that 50% of the shredded children are women/girls and also get the satisfaction of seeing each abortion as killing their #1 enemy – men. She related that each abortion was viewed as killing an old boyfriend. So for feminists, especially Libertarian Feminists, what is not to enjoy about that?
    4) There are many, many, many females ( not women ) who support abortion for the exact same reason – every shredded child is one of their deadly man enemies. Hence the more the better, There can NEVER be enough blood to satisfy them and the process of abortion; the industrial factory shredding of children; is something which gives them, being the now anti-humans demons which they have mutated into, ” happiness.”
    Libertarian Feminists, whose writings drip with a burning hatred of men in every sentence, certainly fill the above description to a ” T.”

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