The following is the body of a press release issued by the Bob Barr campaign today regarding the escalating fighting between Russian and Georgian forces that erupted late last week. Barr calls for diplomatic mediation to seek a peaceful resolution to the conflict, while also offering his view of alliances both in general and particular:
“George Washington long ago warned America against ‘entangling alliances,’ and he was right,†says Bob Barr, the Libertarian Party candidate for president. “Russia and Georgia risk falling into a full-scale war in which the U.S. can and hopefully will avoid any involvement. But had Georgia been a member of NATO we would now be risking a full-scale confrontation with nuclear-armed Russia,†Barr observes.
“Obviously, America should encourage both countries to back down and resolve their differences peacefully,†explains Barr. But “the status of South Ossetia, as well as Abkhazia, another Russian-supported separatist zone within Georgia, matters a lot more to Russia, on which the two territories border, than to the U.S. Moreover, Washington itself set a precedent for Russia when it intervened in Kosovo a decade ago, attacking Serbia to win independence for the separatist ethnic-Albanian majority,†notes Barr.
“The purpose of alliances is to defend America,†says Barr. “We should not create or expand alliances where the U.S. does not have vital interests. If the Europeans want to defend distant countries like Georgia, they can do so—after all, the European Union has a larger population and bigger GDP than America, without any of Washington’s other global military commitments. It is time for Europe to accept responsibility for its own security.â€
“Any war is tragic, but not every war requires American intervention,†explains Barr. “We can do our best to mediate between Russia and Georgia, but we should avoid any military involvement. It is time to put the defense of America back into America’s defense policy.â€
“Trent: “Georgian Christiansâ€? Fire-up Google Earth, and look for The Pankisi Gorge, then do a bit of searching using that as the string. Also, you might want to refresh your memory about Beslan. There is no justice to be found in The eyes of your children for the eyes of our husbands, which your government poke-out. It is just hell upon earth.”
My point was that Georgia is by and large a Christian nation, in textbooks if not in practice. I know plenty about the Gorge of Hell, and I needn’t review it.
Exactly.
We might be able to make a libertarian out of Barr yet. He’s come a very long way since his incredibly asinine proposed bill: H.R. 62, on September 13, 2001. Now, if he’d only see the light about continued military support of the Columbian government, and the fight against cultivation of coca, Id be much more comfortable with his positioning on foreign affairs.
A few other reflections.
War is inherently evil. There are NO good-sides in a war. there is not one ounce of righteousness to be found in a war zone. There are however, many individual soldiers, who have been impelled over the event horizon into war, that are indeed good guys. Sadly, they are also the humans most likely to die in a combat theater. It hardly ever seems to be the deserving assholes that get their number checked. They are the ones who cower in fear under deep cover 2 meters away from a bud bleeding out in a strange foreign land. It is the same for yours and the enemy. The peasants have it even worse, as they are often forced to choose between giving up the entirety of their personal possessions, or being in the crossfire of a firefight.
It was wrong to have bombed Serbia, but not because the Milosevic government was any better the the powers behind Muslim separatists. It was wrong because the Serbian people were about to take Milosevic down on their own, and by going to war, we only solidified his position. Milosevic cracked down on dissidents at the start of the war, and the Serbian people understandably rallied bejhind their nation at the war’s onset.
There is NO right-side in the current conflict between Georgia and Russia either. Saakashvili is no more righteous than was Shevardnadze. The latter was a tool of the Kremlin, and the former was sceptered into power with western subterfuge and funding. Saakashvili miscalculated, albeit probably goaded into action by Russian backed rebels in S. Ossetia. He thought he could catch Russia sleeping, and would be able to waltz into Tskhinvali, overrun the Russian garrison there, before they could respond. He was counting on Western support after the fact. Russia seems to have been lying in wait ready, was able to get airborne in place, and held until the Armor arrived through the S, Caucasus mountain gorges. It arrived in force and unscathed. and has now pressed into the Georgian lowlands with heavy guns and total air superiority.
I don’t believe Russia has any intentions of trying to hold Georgia. They are instead publicly flogging Georgia in a show beating, intending to make Saakashvili unelectable regardless of the covert funding from the west. They are also making sure that The Ukraine is learning the lesson too.
All the while, the Real Assholes, who deserve to die in this conflict, are sitting nice and warm in their respective capitals hurling derogations at each other.
Trent: “Georgian Christians”? Fire-up Google Earth, and look for The Pankisi Gorge, then do a bit of searching using that as the string. Also, you might want to refresh your memory about Beslan. There is no justice to be found in The eyes of your children for the eyes of our husbands, which your government poke-out. It is just hell upon earth.
Finally, why has no one mentioned thew war zombie McCain beating his chest like a war drum. What’s he going to do; start going on recruiting drives into the fecund, yntapped resources for Grade A Prime Monkey Boy Military fodder that is the College Republican campus enclaves, in an effort to shore up our already over-extended military, nearing its breaking point?
There, I am through with my ravening.
I am antiwar.
If That Makes Me A Lefty;
So Be It.
I’ve been to war, and it’s only needless death, and the black of night that is ever always descending.
The savages were the Serbs.
Clearly you have not followed up on the links I provided.
If you had, you would know how erroneous that statement is. Also, you would have some idea of what kind of monstrosity you advocate when you say the Serbs “deserved everything they got and more.”
Deran,
Let us not compare ethics. While my “leave them alone” ethic might seem very “do nothing”–your ethic was to carpet bomb the Serbs. Serbs who did not neccesarily agree with their government actions. You want to shed blood for blood. My Christian principles tell me that I should send help to my brethren, but not that I should send my brethren to help my brethren. In the system myself and GE have outlined, any American has the ability to help Georgia, Russia, or South Ossetia.
Deran,
Georgia is capable of defending herself. Russia has about 100,000 soldiers in the region that they’d be able to deploy to Georgia. Georgia has about 33,000 total. South Ossetia has less than 1000 in a militia. However, Georgian volunteers from Armenia, Russia, and Azerbaijan would pour in in the event of an actual occupation–this has already happened on a small scale. Furthermore, mercenaries have already been found in Georgia. The reported story is that they were most likely hired by weathy Georgian-Americans and Georgian-Argentinians, this would happen on a larger scale in the event of occupation or genocide.
No, the ethic is Thou Shalt Not Initiate Force.
Socialism is exposed as pro-war.
And if we are to speak of blood thirsty; I would think the libertarian capitalists who would sit by and see whole populations massacred are bloodthirsty by in-action. Libertarian capitalism really seems pretty nihilistic, ethics wise I mean.
So, libertarian capitalists prefer a world where the strong can kill and abuse the weaker with impunity? Had their been libertarian capitalists in the 1930s, I suppose they would then have said the Nazis exterminating Jews was an “internal matter”? This is individual freedom?
“Deran exposes the bloodthirsty savagery that lies at the heart of every socialist.”
The savages were the Serbs. I would have prefered the UN was the leader militarily, but when no one else stepped up, someone had to do something. I agree the use of cluster bombs and depleted uranium munitions was a crime, but, again, someone, other than libertarian capitalists obviously, had to do something.
I think it’s pretty obvious that the Russians are after SOMETHING in Georgia–wether its simply more land or an oil pipeline. But Georgia should have let South Ossetia alone.
I haven’t had time to read of the responses so this is just my take on the event. It is a shame but the US cannot do anything about it even if it wanted to. Not that we can claim moral authority here after Iraq. Georgia has an oilpipe line and that is what the Russians are after.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/kosov2/
Deran exposes the bloodthirsty savagery that lies at the heart of every socialist.
I’m posting those links mainly as counterpoint to Deran’s statements here, which I think are far from what is really the case.
Yea, i’d already read Raimondo’s take. He’s one thinker I respect ALOT.
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=13285
http://www.google.com/custom?q=serbia&sa=Google+Search&cof=LW%3A510%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2F128.121.216.19%2Fantiwar4.gif%3BLH%3A84%3BAH%3Acenter%3BAWFID%3Ac7dd53b2d1b358c8%3B&domains=antiwar.com&sitesearch=antiwar.com
Glad,for once, that im getting some back-up here,lol.
Not that it matters–I was right anyway.
“Nice of you to consign an entire nation to the fire for the policies of its government.”
Yeah, that’s humanitarianism at its finest.
And no one carpet bombed the Serbs, although, again, imho they would have deserved it, in aces.
Nice of you to consign an entire nation to the fire for the policies of its government.
Neither of those regions are actual nationalistic entities; they are puppets of Moscow, they all carry Russian passports.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians
The Ossetians (Ossetic: ирæттæ, irættæ) are an Iranic[4][5][6] ethnic group indigenous to Ossetia, a region that spans the Caucasus Mountains. They are of the Causasian race. The Ossetians mostly populate North Ossetia-Alania in Russia, and South Ossetia a large part of which is now de facto independent but internationally recognised as part of Georgia. They speak Ossetic, an Indo-European language of the Iranian branch. The Ossetians are mostly Christian with large Muslim minority.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhaz_people
The Abkhazians or Abkhaz (Abkhaz: ÐÒ§Ñуа, Apswa; Georgian: áƒáƒ¤áƒ®áƒáƒ–ი, Aphkhazi) are a Caucasian ethnic group, mainly living in Abkhazia, de facto independent republic which is internationally recognised as part of Georgia. A large Abkhazian diaspora lives in Turkey who are descendants of Abkhazians who emigrated from the Caucasus in the late 19th century as part of Muhajirism. Many also live in other parts of the former Soviet Union, particularly in Russia, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.[4]
And as far as the Serbs go; they deserved everything they got, and more, imho. In the 90s they were the aggressors. A racist genocidal regime.
Care to back that up?
a.)I asked if the Serbs thought that our interference in the Kosovo War was humanitarian. You answered that they deserved what they got, and more.
b.)You didn’t seriously just say that we DIDNT carpet bomb the Serbs? That is historical fact. No amount of revisionism is going to change it.
c.)Georgia started this conflict by invading the autonomous region of South Ossetia. South Ossetia held a referendum on independence back in 1991 and passed it overwhelmingly. Do liberals believe, or do they not believe, in the right to self-determination? Do you believe these people,and the people of Abakhazia, should be able to rule themselves?
c.)You suggested that “Neither of those regions are actual nationalistic entities” — does this mean that you deny that Abakhazi’s or Ossetians are actual ethnic groups with long and illustrius histories, just like the Chechneyans?
d.)You want to kick Russia out of the UN, and “all international institutions we have the juice to get them kicked out of”. Do you long for another Cold War? Nationalist WWIII? Talking to our friends in Russia are the best ways to diffuse the problems we’re currently seeing.
That’s completel rubbish, comrade Hill, it really doesn’t even warrant a reply. A simple search by you of regarding the history of the US and the UN will clear your mind of these crazy ideas.
And coomrade G.E. of course has to take the ultra/bolshevik line, as he always does.
The Serbs were racist, genocidal aggressors in Bosnia, and even Kosovo. You do not see the Georgians seeking to ethnically cleanse S Ossetia, nor Abkhazia. Neither of those regions are actual nationalistic entities; they are puppets of Moscow, they all carry Russian passports. A Russian is “president” of S Ossetia. This all goes back a hundred years to when the czars were seeking to expand their control over non-Russian regions nearby. This is Georgia trying to defend it self against the Russians.
And as far as the Serbs go; they deserved everything they got, and more, imho. In the 90s they were the aggressors. A racist genocidal regime. Now, they seem to have come to their senses, at least to some degree. Although their current interest in “free trade” will no dfoubt come back to haunt and destroy them. And no one carpet bombed the Serbs, although, again, imho they would have deserved it, in aces.
I agree the UN should not be based in the US (even though the US initiated it); NYC should be an independent city state.
The Russians are carrying out the same sort of racist genocidal policies they used against Chechneya.
The Russians should be expelled from any and all international institutions we have the juice to get them kicked out of. The US should expel their ambassadorial and consular personel, and we should leave Moscow. Let the Swiss handle our relations with Moscow, like they do in Iran.
If you don’t step on this sort of racism and genocide, you end up with a Rwanda situation.
Good God, who wants a strong world government like UN? If the UN really was that strong and tried to stop Russia with force, the world would go up in smoke.
The UN’s death is the only good thing that might come out of US, Russian, and Chinese interventionism this century.
Abakhazia,which is closely allied with Russia, has moved 1000 soldiers onto the Georgian border,threatening to “restore order”. Georgian volunteer fights are also streaming into the conflict in small numbers via Armenia and Abakhazia. Additionally, at least 5 black mercenaries have been caught in the area, and admitted to being hired by Georgians from “around the world”.
No im not. Territorial integrity means just that. I expect Russia to respect the boundaries of Georgia (or any other nation)’s borders. Wether or not South Ossetia is an independent nation–it never invited Russia into the nation, so either way that is an invasion.
And yes, my second sentence referred to both Georgia and Russia. Both parties should recognize the seccession of South Ossetia and Abakhazia.
Mixing buzzwords there Trent, “territorial integrity” in this context means anti-secessionist. I’m assuming from your next sentence you were referring to Russia though.
Georgia is a soverign state whose territorial integrity should be respected. However, they should also recognize the independence, or autonomy of South Ossetia and Abakhazia.
Georgia is a client state for the Amero-Israeli Empire, btw.
Barr just doesn’t get it. Even a mediary role is far too interventionist. Barr and the US should just SFTU and mind their own business.
Prediction:
If Russia attempts to actually invade and control Georgia–Georgia will whip its ass via Guerilla warfare. Armenians will aid their fellow Christians, the Georgians, in their plight while the large Georgian-exile communities in Azerbaijan (15,000) and the US (150,000) send massive amounts of money.
And you can form full sentences!
I should get you a cookie!
See Smear Master Trent Hill,
You can talk about stuff with facts!
“And had the US not been such dicks abt the UN, and not weakened it over the last 27 years, Russia would never be able to get away with this. Armenia and Azerbaijan are next.”
The US has done nothing to weaken the UN. In fact, the “strength” of the UN, is built upon the back of US citizens. Its bankroll comes from our income. Its nice building is on loan from our government (and thus,from me and you). Its ability to raise armies is wholly dependent upon wether the US “contributes” forces. In any conflict requiring more than a few thousand soldiers, the group is composed almost entirely by Americans. So no–the US has done nothing to hold back the UN. Far from it, the US has aided and abbetted that monolithic organization full of corruption and statism.
Secondly–What would the UN do, if it were “strong”? Defend Georgia against Russia? What about South Ossetia, whose independence referendum no nation-state recognizes?
Deran,
Humanitarian for who? When we were carpet-bombing the serbs, was THAT humanitarian? If so–please explain how?
P.S. Maybe the bombs were edible?
The intervention in the former Yugoslavia was humanitarian, not revanchist like what Russia is up to. Despite what the SWP and WWP may say.
And had the US not been such dicks abt the UN, and not weakened it over the last 27 years, Russia would never be able to get away with this. Armenia and Azerbaijan are next.
Agreed Fred. I’m going to make yet another donation this week and I’m trying to help them out any way I can.
I should mention Antiwar.com has a load of background info on the fighting.
It’s also time for their quarterly fundraiser. Give til it aches.