Our monthly open thread. Post news tips about alt parties and independent candidates, discuss any story that should be posted here but has not yet been posted, or even delve into completely off-topic stuff…just avoid quarantined thread subject matter and things that could get us and/or you into legal trouble such as threats, libel, and copyright infringement.
News tips can also be sent to the IPR writers who have chosen to make their contact info available at https://independentpoliticalreport.com/about/.
It’s also become an IPR tradition to post videos in the open threads.
This month, a May Day theme:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5hXUx9j1ds
Dead Prez, H/T Green_w_o_Adjectives:
Part of his national tour.
“paulie Post author
May 30, 2015 at 8:56 am
Kokesh is in Birmingham today, I’ll try to be there this evening.”
What is the occasion for Adam Kokesh to be in Birmingham, AL?
Kokesh is in Birmingham today, I’ll try to be there this evening.
The Cost of Police “Just Doing Their Jobs”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc9bBTaU6NY
New Film Highlights Dog Shootings By Police
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfGZTDhBD_s
http://www.examiner.com/article/florida-libertarians-likely-to-put-up-roger-stone-jr-for-u-s-senate
This should probably be its own article. I’ll try to get it done in the next day or two, unless someone can do it first.
From Roger Stone, as posted on LPF Facebook page:
I want to thank the many Libertarians, liberty minded Republicans and not a few progressives who have urged me to seek the Libertarian nomination for the US Senate in 2016. As many of you know I considered running for Governor and decided that a intra-party contest would drain re$oures the eventual nominee would need in the general election. I am proud to have endorsed and voted for Adrian Wyllie and celebrate the fact that our nominee while underfunded worked very hard got a quarter of a million votes.
I have a book which will be the definitive expose on the Clintons in book stores Sept 1. I have a contract for a book which exposes the Bushs to publish Jan 2. The Clintons and Bushs and their parties represent the exact same pro-war, pro-debt, pro-spending, pro-spying, big government policies. If the Republican nominee is Ron Desantis and the Democratic nominee is Patrick Murphy ,this will also be true of them. I would love to debate them. In truth they are identical.
I believe I could be an effective candidate for the Libertarian Party in 2016. I will adhere to whatever rules and screen process the party sets. I will campaign in every part of the state. I believe I could raise substantial funds.
I know how to get press coverage.
I would run on a liberty message. I favor the repeal of the NDAA and the Patriot Act. I would reclassify marijuana and then legalize it. I would end the failed expensive war on drugs. I would oppose sending more troops to the middle east. I am not an isolationist but I am a non interventionist.
I will outline my own odyssey from being a Goldwater Republican and former Young Republican National Chairman and aide to two Presidents to being disgruntled Republican to being a proud member of the LP. I also am proud of my role as a Senior Adviser to Gov. Gary Johnson in our effort to get on the ballot in 48 states and our legal efforts to get the LP nominee in to the Presidential debates.
Let me make clear my affection for my ex-boss President Nixon is personal and not ideological. My book on Nixon makes this clear .I have written and spoken as a critic of closing the gold window, the war on drugs and the expansion of government.
I am under contract to finish two books and will become a formal candidate later in the process. In the meantime I have asked Jo Ann Vaccarino and Alex Vidal to head an Exploratory Committee to begin planning the campaign. I will authorize this committee with the Federal Election Commission immediately
I look forward to seeing many of you in June. Live Free !
My observation is that Scott doesn’t seem to play well with others. I wonder what he could accomplish if he didn’t alienate so many people?
Paulie wrote (@ 1:21 pm on May 26):
Do what you want with it. I didn’t think it rose to the level of an article when I wrote the comment. YMMV.
Paulie wrote (@ 1:21 pm on May 26):
You make many good points.
Very good points about the nature of nonpartisan elections, and what the LP’s role is. I also find the urge to drop ‘unwinnable’ races tedious, particularly in a state where basically everything below state rep. is nonpartisan. It’s great when Libertarians win such offices, we should absolutely encourage and support and promote that. But the fact is most of these elected Libertarians are people who would have been elected anyway, they just happen to also be members of the LP. Because once you get to that level, the pool of officeholders is so large and by definition made up of the politically-inclined, that it’s almost inevitable. How many have won because they got the LP endorsement and ran as Libertarians is open to debate, but certainly a lot smaller.
We’re the vehicle for per se libertarian advocacy in electoral politics, with all that includes and all that it excludes. Ideally, we’d also be the big-tent focal point of the broader movement, as we once were and I think are moving towards becoming partly again, which is where non-electoral advocacy and partnerships make sense and do bring value. I don’t think the comparison to Cato is an insult- I’d like it very much if the LP produced as much value for its members and supporters as Cato does. Not that we’re a think tank, but “political party” has always been broader than just strictly “campaigns for elected office.” Those reasons are all laid out quite well in the statements of purpose of the national & state LPs.
Chuck, good point. Not sure if Scott will see it in open thread or not…would you like to submit it as an article? I’m pretty sure he will see it then.
Given that most of the winnable races in question aren’t partisan races, it’s also something that not only the LP can do.
If the goal is to support fiscally conservative nonpartisan candidates (regardless of views on social issues or foreign policy which are not very relevant to local office) and get them elected to local office, a PAC or Taxpayers Union or some other such mechanism would be more effective than the LP.
Granted, it’s nice to have the LP label associated with such efforts, just as it’s nice to have it associated with other activities that other libertarian groups can do better, but it’s not something that only the LP can do, nor something that the LP is the most effective possible mechanism for.
Only the LP can run *partisan* LP candidates, and that’s the only thing that only the LP can do. When we are talking non-partisan races the LP’s endorsement is not necessarily even a good thing for these candidates who may have an actual shot to win and govern.
Scott Lieberman wrote (@LNC-Business):
http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business_hq.lp.org/2015/003017.html
Scott is certainly entitled to his opinion. However, it irks me when he makes blanket statements to the effect that there is no good argument for the LP focusing on anything other than winning elections. That indicates a failure to listen.
I agree that the LP ought to specialize and focus on the things that only it can do (and/or only it can do well) relative to other libertarian organizations. Scott is dead wrong when he makes the illogical leap that the only such activity is running candidates for winnable races. In fact, running candidates for any sort of race is a specialized activity the other organizations (e.g., the Cato Institute, the Foundation for Economic Education, the Institute for Justice) cannot do. Candidates running for unwinnable races (U.S. Congress, Governor, President, etc.) can generate earned media for libertarian ideas during election season far more effectively than think tanks.
It is admirable that Scott devotes time and resources into electing Libertarians to office and encouraging others to do the same. I don’t understand why Scott can’t make his case with logic and persuasion rather than employing non sequiturs. Nor do I understand why Scott keeps trying to centrally plan his big idea rather than going around the LNC, organizing recruitment himself or with others, demonstrating success state by state with plans like Operation Breakthrough, inevitably forcing national to recognize accomplishment and join the parade.
Who knows how many Libertarians could have been elected if (instead of funding a Republican attorney in Oregon) Aaron Starr had invested $100,000 to send 200 campaign managers to campaign management school and 200 candidates to future candidate school at the Leadership Institute. If the candidates for training had been hand picked by Scott to have credible resumes running in winnable districts, there is a good chance we would have generated a lot more elected Libertarians.
Sounds like a good policy. I will take that as a friendly amendment. Cheers! 🙂
>Roger Stone is considering an LP Senate run.
Stone is/was (not sure if it happened yet) the scheduled speaker at LP Broward County this month.
>Sometimes Rand Paul does things right. This is one of those times (in my view).
Absolutely!
BTW, Sen. Paul is doing a fundraiser at a very famous bookstore in NYC this week with a cutesy name: Stand with Rand at the Strand.
[Continued from another thread which is not really on this important subject.]
>>Paulie–Happy Birthday!!
>That was back on the 20th, but thanks!
In my case, I like to celebrate for at least a month so people who don’t have time to buy me a drink on the actual day still have adequate time after that.
You might want to consider that policy as well.
http://www.copblock.org/116401/scientism-and-the-police-state/
http://irregulartimes.com/2015/05/25/mommy-why-do-we-have-wars/
https://www.lewrockwell.com/assets/2015/05/heroesandcowards.jpg
Just in time for Memorial Day, here’s something for those of you here who think that I’m too critical of veterans or of veteran idolaters. Are you sure these are the people you want to worry about offending?
http://www.mintpressnews.com/the-price-of-dissent-abby-martin-gets-graphic-rape-threats-from-chris-kyle-fans/205456/
P.S. Mad props to Abby Martin! At least somebody out there gets it.
According to Lew Rockwell, Roger Stone is considering an LP Senate run:
https://www.lewrockwell.com/political-theatre/fl-a-stone-zone/
I’m sure Warren is thrilled by this news. 😉
http://www.infowars.com/campus-police-intimidate-student-over-her-anti-obama-pro-gun-signs/
I heartily agree!
Thanks, NF.
Sometimes Rand Paul does things right. This is one of those times (in my view).
Please remember this is NOT a “Patriotic Act”… it is a clever acronym! USAPATRIOT Act. Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism.
You can watch the discussion going on right now re: the Patriotic Act here:
http://www.c-span.org/video/?326084-1/senator-rand-paul-rky-nsa-surveillance&live=
Here’s another great article by Laurence Vance, in which he discusses what libertarians should say when talking to veterans. It would be great if the LP would adopt this attitude, rather than pandering to veterans by giving them discounts to “thank them for their service” (I need to go wash my hands after typing that last phrase), or by making excuses for their criminal actions.
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/05/laurence-m-vance/my-hate-mail-count-is-up-again/
Link dump:
Some of these may eventually get published as articles here. Until then, here’s some article & PR links for you to peruse:
[Freedom Socialist Party] The people of Baltimore are not thugs! http://us5.campaign-archive1.com/?u=1df2f51e18d817919a1845ecf&id=29152e7727&e=b67d5d19fa
[Workers World Party] Stop medical murder of Mumia Abu-Jamal http://www.workers.org/articles/2015/05/11/stop-medical-murder-of-mumia-abu-jamal/
[Independent, Socialist Alternative] Bernie Sanders Calls for Political Revolution Against Billionaires http://www.socialistalternative.org/2015/05/09/bernie-sanders-independent-campaign/
[Libertarian Party] Libertarian Party Membership Day – May 13, 2015 http://us6.campaign-archive1.com/?u=1d358b67adda8f0954842840b&id=bb073c1523&e=50f363f29e
[other] Liberland’s leader detained while trying to enter the country he just invented http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/05/11/liberlands-leader-detained-while-trying-to-enter-the-country-he-just-invented/?tid=hp_mm&hpid=z3
[Party for Socialism and Liberation] Petition campaign: Amnesty for ALL those arrested demanding justice for Freddie Gray! http://www.liberationnews.org/petition-campaign-amnesty-arrested-demanding-justice-freddie-gray/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=shared_article&utm_campaign=Liberation%20News
[Libertarian Party] The smoking gun that ties the IRS scandal to Obama and the Democratic Party http://www.rootforamerica.com/webroot/blog/2015/05/05/the-smoking-gun-that-ties-the-irs-scandal-to-obama-and-democratic-party/
[Green Party] An Interview of Margaret Flowers, Green Shadow Cabinet Secretary of Health http://greenshadowcabinet.us/news/interview-margaret-flowers-green-shadow-cabinet-secretary-health
[Tax Wall Street Party] TWSP/UFAA Morning Briefing for Tuesday, May 5, 2015 http://us6.campaign-archive1.com/?u=ffdc278104b5964bb04b4251e&id=5c2afc2355&e=345e094e7b
[Green Party] James Lane: After the Campaign…A New Beginning http://www.votejameslane.org/after_the_campaign_a_new_beginning
[other] Minnesota Omnibus Election Bill Amended to Require Party Petitions to be Completed in One Year http://ballot-access.org/2015/05/11/minnesota-omnibus-election-bill-amended-to-require-party-petitions-to-be-completed-in-one-year/
[other] Commission on Presidential Debates Still Hasn’t Announced Process for Receiving Suggestions http://ballot-access.org/2015/05/11/commission-on-presidential-debates-still-hasnt-announced-process-for-receiving-suggestions/
[Green Party] Green Party hires new fundraisers http://gp.org/current-news/1374-green-party-hires-new-fundraisers
[Socialist Party] May Day in Marquette, MI http://socialistparty-usa.net/4/post/2015/05/may-day-in-marquette-mi.html
[Socialist Party] May Day in Denver http://socialistparty-usa.net/4/post/2015/05/may-day-in-denver.html
[American Nazi Party] ANP Report for May 12, 2015 http://www.americannaziparty.com/news/index.php
[Libertarian Party] LPO Opposes Responsible Ohio Cannabis Initiative http://us5.campaign-archive2.com/?u=391c3cd1e771846e6cbfc36e7&id=1b1afa7fc2
[Constitution Party] The 70th Anniversary of V E Day http://www.castlereport.us/the-70th-anniversary-of-v-e-day/
http://amthirdpartyreport.com/2015/05/09/scott-copeland-announces-his-run-for-president-in-2016/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBAwC5zfZoA
Thanks!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zlUkWuaLiU
>I’ve strippers sign petitions while topless…
My condolences. It must have been a terrible experience.
Seriously, you guys are the experts and I will defer to your judgment. I think we’re in agreement that generalities are generally true, with lots of exceptions.
Good luck finishing up Arkansas.
Soon, but we don’t know an exact date. With this afternoon’s turn in, we’ll have blown through all of the LNC money and most of the LPAR money, and they will tell us how many more we can get after this point, which I am guessing will take less than a week. After that they will get some more signatures from local semi-pro petitioners and volunteers. The absolute deadline is June 18, but they are talking about turning them in to the state at the end of May.
Arkansas would be finished already if I had not been illegally arrested and had not had several days wasted, which prevented me from gathering signatures at the college where I was arrested, and which also prevented me from driving to Fayetteville before the college there shut down regular classes and went into exam week (which is not as good of a time for signature gathering).
This BS cost me multiple days of work, and expense money (for gas and motels, all of which came out of my own pocket), and of course I am not getting any reimbursement for it.
“Mark Axinn
May 6, 2015 at 11:33 am
Then it’s good we have so many middle-class people here! 🙂
Of course you are correct about the difference between approaching strangers vs. people one knows. I just don’t think it’s correct to assume one’s willingness to assist in ballot access by class, but if it were, then I can speak from experience that wealthy people are often far more engaged about politics than poor people.”
Some rich people may be more into politics than some poor people, but this does not mean that there are not poor people who are not engaged in politics, and this also does not mean that there are not rich people who are not engaged in politics. Some rich people are too busy working, or are too busy partying and otherwise enjoying their wealth to care about politics.
“You guys have far more experience dealing with people on the streets than I do, but I may have more experience dealing with weathy people than you do. Most of them are college-educated, often with advance degrees (I know lots of doctors, lawyers and businessmen), and almost all of them that I encounter are interested in politics. (Of course, they usually want me to hear what they think about the political scene!)”
I’ve petitioned in 33 states (including Washington DC, which is not technically a state, but I am counting it as a state since it is a different jurisdiction than the 50 states) over a period of 15 years, and I’ve encountered every type of person that you can imagine. I have petitioned in very poor areas, very rich areas, middle class areas, rural areas, big cities, small towns, predominantly white areas, predominantly black areas, predominantly Hispanic areas, areas with lots of young people, areas with lots of elderly people, etc… I have had homeless people sign petitions (I generally turn homeless people away from signing, because they are generally not registered to vote, but I’ve actually had homeless people whip out their registered voter cards to show me that they were registered to vote), I’ve had handicapped people sign petitions (including handicapped people who signed by putting the pen in between their toes or in their mouth), I’ve had transvestites and transsexuals sign petitions, I’ve had Catholic Priests and Nuns sign petitions, I’ve had Jewish Rabbis sign petitions, I’ve had Protestant Preachers sign petitions, I’ve had Harley Davidson bikers sign petitions, I’ve had Neo-Nazi Skinheads sign petitions, I’ve had Muslims sign petitions, I’ve had Native American Indians sign petitions, I’ve had India Indians sign petitions, I’ve had centenarians (people who are 100 years old or older/I think my oldest signer was 105) sign petitions, I’ve had kids under 18 sign petitions (people under 18 can’t sign petitions to place anything on the ballot, but I have worked on a few non-legally binding plebiscite petitions where anyone could sign, and I think my youngest signer was 5 years old), I’ve strippers sign petitions while topless (I worked a referendum petition in Los Angeles years ago to Keep Lap Dancing Legal, and during part of the drive I actually petitioned inside several strip clubs), I’ve had celebrities sign petitions (like Drew Carey, Wayne Knight (played Newman the Mailman on Seinfeld), Martin Kove (played the bad guy Karate Instructor in “The Karate Kid,” and also played a villain in one of the “Rambo” movies), Larry Elder, etc…), I’ve had elected officials sign petitions, I’ve even had police and military sign petitions while in uniform (police and military generally will not sign, whether they are in uniform or not, but every once in a while they do/I had a couple of women who were in the Navy sign petitions for me and they put down the submarine that they were stationed on and where it was docked for an address), and etc… I’ve probably had every type of person sign petitions that you could imagine.
So yes, I’ve had very wealthy people sign petitions. I’ve done a lot of petitioning in California, and I used to petition in some places that were near some wealthy areas, like Beverly Hills, Bel Air, Calabasas, etc… I remember I used to do a lot of of petitioning in front of a Target (note that Target is generally very hostile to petitioners, but under California law, it is legal to gather petition signatures or voter registrations in front of corporate stores and shopping centers that are open to the public) in Woodland Hills, which is in the San Fernando Valley, most of which is part of the city of Los Angeles (including Woodland Hills), and I remember one day a black guy pulled into the parking lot in a Rolls Royce. I don’t know who he was, but he appeared to be in his 50’s. Anyway, he signed my petition. I’ve also petitioned in Manhattan Beach and Hermosa Beach, and although everyone in these cities may not be rich, I know that real estate prices there are very high, particularly for houses on the beach. I’ve petitioned in Newport Beach (which I believe is where Judge Jim Gray lives), and that’s supposed to be a very expensive area as well.
Another place I’ve petitioned is Washington DC (as I mentioned above), and my experience in Washington DC (two different petition drives, with the total time spent working in Washington DC at a month or maybe a little over a month) was that the areas with a higher concentration of wealthy people (like Georgetown) were not good for petitioning at all. The best spots in Washington DC were where the regular middle class people that live there go, and these tended to be predominantly black middle class people.
I did door-to-door petitioning for Ron Paul in Pennsylvania in 2008 and in 2012. The only time I had the cops called on me during these times was when I was given a walk list of registered voters which turned out to be a rich neighborhood in Derry Township (I think that’s where it was). The cops said something like, “What are you doing here?” to which I responded, “Oh, I’m just getting signatures from registered REPUBLICANS to place some REPUBLICAN candidates on the ballot, and I got this list from the local REPUBLICAN PARTY.” The cops said something like, “Oh.” and then they left me alone and drove off. That day ended up being my worst day on the Ron Paul 2008 petition drive, and one of my worst days door-to-door, as a lot of the people in this neighborhood were stuck up, and were establishment types who did not like Ron Paul.
Middle class Americans tend to be the best petition signers. I’d much rather petition in a middle class area than a rich area or a poor area.
Okay; I defer to the experts.
When do you guys finish Arkansas? 🙂
“Not one of them could care less…” should have read “Most of them could not care less…”
I don’t assume. I ask everyone, regardless of whether they look rich or poor (sometimes even that is an incorrect guess; for example, there are some rich people who either are pathologically thrifty or don’t care about their appearance and look poor, and some poor people that put on airs and go to extraordinary lengths to appear prosperous). It’s just an average that we do better in middle class areas, as I said there are plenty of exceptions no matter where you go.
And yes, rich people do tend to be politically engaged, but they are less likely to give up their signature. They may say “not today” or “I need to do some research” or “I’ll think it over.”
I have plenty of experience dealing with people of all social strata, both those who care about politics and those who don’t.
Then it’s good we have so many middle-class people here! 🙂
Of course you are correct about the difference between approaching strangers vs. people one knows. I just don’t think it’s correct to assume one’s willingness to assist in ballot access by class, but if it were, then I can speak from experience that wealthy people are often far more engaged about politics than poor people.
You guys have far more experience dealing with people on the streets than I do, but I may have more experience dealing with weathy people than you do. Most of them are college-educated, often with advance degrees (I know lots of doctors, lawyers and businessmen), and almost all of them that I encounter are interested in politics. (Of course, they usually want me to hear what they think about the political scene!)
I also know many poor people, mostly in northeast Ohio. Not one of them could care less about politics and they don’t even vote. They are interested in cars, sports and their kids. Occasionally, I find a few poor people who care about politics, philosophy or freedom. Interestingly, those are usually devout Christians, which is a demographic we ignore at our peril.
Approaching people on the street for signatures is a bit different than asking people you know personally. Generally, wealthy people feel like their time is too important to speak to a lowly signature gatherer out and about, but there are plenty of exceptions, just like there are plenty of poor people who are registered voters with stable addresses. On the average, though, Andy is correct that middle class people are better for getting a combination of decent levels of stopping and signing and having the signatures actually be valid.
Andy–
I know lots of rich people, some of whom consider themselves friends of the Clintons. Of course, most of them are liberal lawyers in Manhattan.
I always hit them up for sigs! I remind them it will help to stop the Republicans and they’re happy to sign.
One of them even voted for Mike McDermott in November to help me out (and because Cuomo’s re-election was a shoo-in).
On the other hand, they would never sign for Nader as he stole the 2000 election from their other hero, Al Gore.
“and they will could the signature as valid”
Should read, “and they will count the signature as valid…”
“or they move frequently and do remember which address they put on the voter registration.”
Should read, “or they move frequently and do not remember which address they put on their voter registration form.”
Middle class people tend to be the best petition signers. A lot of rich people are too stuck up to sign petitions (rich people are also more likely to call the police on petitioners than poor people or middle class people are, unless of course the middle class people are government employees or are store managers). A lot of poor people are not registered to vote, or they can’t vote because they have felonies on their record, or they move frequently and do remember which address they put on the voter registration.
“Mark Axinn
May 5, 2015 at 4:24 pm
NYS has about 11,000,000 registered voters and a total population around 19,000,000. Remeber that we have a very large immigrant population, especially in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx.”
Yes, that’s true about New York having lots of immigrants. I have only petitioned in New York once, and I worked in the Buffalo area. There did not appear to be a large immigrant population there, but New York City is a different animal. New York City has the advantage (from a petitioning stand point) of having lots of people in a relatively small geographic territory, but I imagine that petition circulators there have to spend lots of time sorting through foreign people, visitors from other states, and people who are just not registered to vote.
Approximately 11,000,000 registered voters out of approximately 19,000,000 people comes out to a voter registration rate of about 57.89% (assuming the numbers provided by Mark are close to accurate, which I believe they are).
I have done lots of petitioning in two states that border New York, in Pennsylvania and Massachusetts. Pennsylvania and Massachusetts both have higher rates of voter registration than the figures cited by Mark for New York. Like I said in a previous post, around 66% of the people in Pennsylvania are registered to vote, and this is also true for the most populated city in Pennsylvania, Philadelphia (66% of the population there is registered to vote). I am pretty sure that the percentage of the population of Massachusetts that is registered to vote is in the 60’s%, but I am not sure if it is higher or lower than Pennsylvania. A couple of advantages that Massachusetts has going for it is that I have been told by several people when I have petitioned that you can register people to vote and have them sign the petitions the same day so long as the registration forms get turned in before the petitions. The other advantage that Massachusetts has over a lot of states in regard to petitioning is that there are better legal protections in Massachusetts than a lot of states for people to go to places where the public has access, including shopping centers and stand alone store fronts, for the purpose of asking people to sign petitions or to register to vote. The legal protections for petition circulators in Massachusetts are not always followed, so there are still rights violations against petition circulators that happen in Massachusetts, but they do appear to be followed more often than not so a petition circulator in Massachusetts is less likely to have their rights violated than in most other states, and they are also more likely to gain access to locations to gather signatures that may not be possible to get in a lot of states (as in most corporate shopping centers).
Being able to get access to locations for gathering petition signatures is another thing that can have an effect on petition validity rates. Why? Because if petition circulators are run out of lots of locations, they are unable to collect signatures in those locations, and these locations may be places that have a high concentration of registered voters.
Let’s say that there is a situation where petition circulators have been run out of all of the corporate shopping centers, the Post Offices, the DMV’s, and the public libraries that are in the neighborhoods that have the highest concentrations of registered voters. Then let’s say that the only places that they can gather signatures without being threatened with arrest are a public downtown sidewalk and bus stop that is frequented by lots of transient apartment dwellers, homeless people, and tourists. Let’s say that the middle to upper-middle class homeowners all shop at a corporate shopping center that has security guard roaming the parking lots, and the police frequently stop by, and let’s say that the public library, DMV, and Post Office in this middle to upper-middle class area with lots of home owners and a voter registration rate of 75% are also running off petition circulators. So the petition circulators, not having any other place to gather signatures, go to a city sidewalk that has a bus stop that is near several large apartment buildings, some of which are government housing projects, and let’s say that the area also has a bar district and some tourist attractions where lots of people who are from other states and other countries frequent. Let’s say only 37% of the people who walk by on this sidewalk or who go to this bus stop are registered voters, and even out of the people who are registered to vote, a lot of them frequently move to different apartments and they do not remember at which apartment it is that they registered to vote.
If the petition circulators could get access to the corporate shopping center and the Post Office (which is not on a city sidewalk for this scenario/note that the current court ruling only allows for petitioning in front of Post Offices that are directly off of city sidewalks, which means that you can’t petition at 90-95% of the Post Offices in this country without being arrested, or threatened with arrest if you do not leave), and the DMV and public library (let’s say that the people who run the DMV and the public library are anti-free speech and do not want any competition on the ballot and do not care what the law says) in this middle to uppper-middle class neighborhood where 75% of the population is registered to vote, they could get a higher average validity rate on their signatures than they could get on the downtown city sidewalk with a bus stop where only 37% of the people walking by are registered to vote.
Getting access to locations for the purpose of getting petitions signed and/or registering people to vote is a huge issue, and it has a great effect on ballot access for minor parties and independent candidates (as well as for the proponents of ballot initiatives, referendums, and recalls), yet hardly anybody, including members of the Libertarian Party, does anything to try to improve the situation.
I can assure everyone here that many Libertarian Party candidates have failed to get on the ballot over the years due to petition circulators being prevented from gathering signatures at locations that had lots of public foot traffic.
My primary IP is still apparently banned. But that’s okay, it will be nuked soon anyway.
I did read the previous open thread and saw that h*b* vs. f*nct**n*l discussion is apparently banned now.
I do find that rather strange, since I read about it in an op-ed published here on IPR and have found that spectrum to be a very useful metric, particularly regarding 3rd-party Presidential candidates. Probably the most original insight ever published here.
If h*b* and f*nct**n*l are both on a list of IPR-banned words, I can easily drop them from my vocabulary and use other words. I know other words.
NYS has about 11,000,000 registered voters and a total population around 19,000,000. Remeber that we have a very large immigrant population, especially in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx.
Thanks Andy for your kind words about the role of coordinators.
Glad to see you’re back!
A 76% validity rate is terrific, and I agree you don’t need double the statutory number with that kind of rate. I like to plan for the worst so I aim for 30,000 raw against a statutory number of 15,000, but in fact we only had 25,000 raw for Johnson/Gray which was enough.
Yes, our volunteers are fantastic.
“Mark Axinn
May 3, 2015 at 3:36 pm
On Arkansas petitioning:
14000 raw is too low if the requirement is 10000 valid. In New York, we aim for double the valid number.”
I do not think that it is generally necessary to double the signature requirement. The last two times that the Libertarian Party of Arkansas petitioned for full party status (for the 2012 and 2014 elections), they turned in around 16,000 raw signatures. The validity came out to around 76% each time, which meant that the party had well over the 10,000 valid signatures necessary for ballot access.
There are different factors which can effect the validity of petition signatures, such as:
1) How good of a job are the petition circulators doing of screening people before they sign the petition, and how good of a job are petition circulators doing of making sure that people sign the petition properly?
2) What percent of the population in the area where the petition drive is being conducted are registered voters, or are otherwise qualified to vote and sign petitions (there are 4 states that do not require petition signers to be registered to vote, they only have to be legally able to vote to sign)? Can petition circulators carry voter registration cards and have people who are not registered fill out the voter registration cards and then sign the petitions right after filling out the registration form, and will the petition signatures count for these newly registered voters so long as the petition circulator turns in the voter registration form before, or at the same time, that the petitions are turned in to the election office (some states allow this and others do not)?
Note that some states have high percentage rates of registered voters and other states have low percentages of the population that are registered to vote. I am pretty sure that both New York and Arkansas have voter registration rates that are in the 60’s%, which is pretty high. Some states have low voter registration rates, like Nevada (52%), Wyoming (43%/this was for 2014, and I think that it has actually gotten lower since the 2014 election passed, because Wyoming drops people from the voter roles if they miss one statewide general election, and voter turn out was down in 2014), and California (47%, but note that California allows petition circulators to register people to vote and sign the petitions the same day and they will could the signature as valid as long as the voter registration is turned in before, or at the same time as the petition).
Some other states I’ve looked up in recent years: Pennsylvania (66%), Maryland (around 65-66%), South Carolina (62%), Florida (59%), Vermont (72%), Colorado (66%), South Dakota (around 67-69%), Nebraska (around 67-69%).
3) The design of the petition forms. Some states require petition signatures to be separated by county, or by city/town, while other states allow for everyone in the state to sign the same page. Everyone in the state being able to sign the same page obviously improves validity, as opposed to having to separate counties or cities/towns. Florida and New Hampshire only allow for one signature per page, which means you won’t have people signing the wrong county or city/town page,. which is good, but it also means you’ll have to carry and print a lot more paper than would be otherwise necessary, and this is not a good thing.
Petitions for districts (which includes offices like US House, State Senate, State House/Assembly, etc…), is a lot more difficult than a statewide or city or county petition, because most people have no idea which district they live in and many districts are gerrymandered (ie-drawn in unusual shapes in order to benefit a certain candidate or party). County and city petitions can be tough because some people do not know which county they live in or whether or not they are in the city limits of a particular city (this can be really confusing in some areas due to unincorporated zones, or parts of cities that are referred to by a name different than the rest of the city, or areas that are not in a particular city, but use a city name for mailing purposes).
Also, included with the design of petitions, the size of the boxes for petition signers, and the size and wording of requested information to sign the petition (such as requests for signatures, printed names, street addresses, city/town, zip code, county, date of signing, and/or date of birth, etc…) can effect validity. Some petitions are poorly designed, either due to incompetence from the people who work at the election offices, or perhaps because the people at the election offices want petitions to fail, so they design the forms poorly on purpose.
4) How do the elections officials check the signatures, and how do they define what a valid signature on a petition is? Some states have easier standards than others, and some states will arbitrarily reinterpret the standards just to make ballot access more difficult (this happened in Maryland a few years ago, as the standard they had been using was pretty reasonable, but then they reinterpreted the rules to a new standard that is a lot more difficult, and unreasonable, so a petition signature that would have been considered valid a few years ago in Maryland may no longer be considered to be valid due to the new interpretation of what a valid petition signature is).
A few states will count a P.O. Box as a valid address on a petition, but most states will not. A few states will count a petition signature as valid if the signer put the wrong address on the petition if that person is registered to vote within the same county at a different address, but other states will disqualify this (I know of one or two cases where courts rules that petition signatures were valid if a signers was registered to vote in a county but put an address in the county that was different from the one they put on their voter registration form, however, most states are not following these court rulings to my knowledge).
Some states do not have declarations for petition circulators to sign, while other states have declarations that petition circulators have to sign, and some states require these declarations to be notartized. Mistakes in petition circulator declarations or in notarization can lead to more reasons to disqualify petition signatures, however, I know that there was a court ruling in California years ago that said that a petition is still valid even if a petition circulator does not properly fill out a declaration, because the petition circulator filling out the declaration improperly should not subvert the intent of the petition signers, whoever, most states are not following this court ruling.
“Also, 1500 volunteer sigs. sucks as a projection. I promised Redpath at least 5000 volunteer in New York last summer and we actually did more than twice that in only six weeks. Our new Chair, Mark Glogowski got over 2000 just by himself.”
Kudos to the Libertarian Party of New York for their volunteer effort last year.
One more thing to add here, and that is that state & local Libertarian Party members who act as ballot access “coordinators” save the Libertarian Party lots of money. Why? Because if not for people like Mark Axinn in New York, Bob Johnston in Maryland, Ken Moellman in Kentucky, Jessica and Rodger Paxton and Michael Pakko in Arkansas, and etc… around the country, the Libertarian Party would have to pay people to do all of the things that are done by volunteers. Things like handing out or mailing or emailing petition sheets, counting signatures, paying paid signature gatherers, recruiting volunteers to collect signatures, etc…
Contrast the effort to get Americans Elect on the ballot in all 50 states plus DC for 2012 (an effort which was abandoned after Americans Elect failed to recruit whom their board of directors thought would be an appropriate candidate for President, even though they had completed ballot access drives in around 35 states and spent millions and millions of dollars). Americans Elect did not have any real grass roots support behind it, so they did not really have any kind of volunteer effort, so they had to pay people to do everything that needed to be done to obtain ballot access. This is why Americans Elect cost per valid signature to get on the ballot was much higher than the cost per valid signature that the Libertarian Party spends to get on the ballot. The Libertarian Party is a real grass roots activist based organization, while Americans Elect was a play thing for a few rich people.
I always thought Arkansas was about 1/10th the population of my block.
Actually 15% (about 1/7).
I think Arkansas is about 1/10 the population of NY
Arkansas is a much smaller state, in terms of LP members, than NY, Mark. But, 1500 still sucks.
On naked gardening:
Ouch.
On Arkansas petitioning:
14000 raw is too low if the requirement is 10000 valid. In New York, we aim for double the valid number.
Also, 1500 volunteer sigs. sucks as a projection. I promised Redpath at least 5000 volunteer in New York last summer and we actually did more than twice that in only six weeks. Our new Chair, Mark Glogowski got over 2000 just by himself.
I hope he knows his tomato worms! That could hurt!
I posted the article on naked gardening on my city’s FB page a couple days ago, and we’ve had some fun with it. My favorite comment was a man who said he regularly gardens naked-but he accidently grabs the wrong hose sometimes! I thought that was pretty funny.
http://portlandtribune.com/bvt/15-news/258502-129402-libertarians-lars-dh-hedbor-and-richard-p-burke-square-off-in-tualatin-valley-water-district-board-race
Random? You want random? Here you go..
http://irregulartimes.com/2015/05/02/today-is-world-naked-gardening-day/
Well, well, well… THAT certainly was random!
When I see and read so much infatuation over the birth of a “royal” child from other Americans, I am not shocked to so many voters align themselves with the Democrats and GOP. We are truly a nation of idiots.
Thanks Mark! Arkansas could use some help boosting the margin of error on the petition. We have more than enough for the 10,000 required by law, but right now the plan is to only go for 14,000, which is on the low side for adequately covering the margin of error on petitions. And even that relies on a projection 1,500 from volunteers, which they are behind projections on as of the last I heard, although they do have some time to catch up (June 18 deadline). The LNC money is almost all spent, and the LNC could use some help making up for it so we can continue helping other states that need help getting on the ballot. And we don’t want the Arkansas party to go broke paying us, much less fail because of not enough extra signatures to make up for the ones that get disqualified on various technicalities.
For those of you with a few extra bucks burning a hole in your pocket, there is an important ballot access petition drive going on in Arkansas right now. Our friends Paul Frankel, Andy Jacobs and Darryl Bonner are working hard to get 15,000 sigs over the next few weeks and they can use our help. Best ways to help them out is to contribute to the Arkansas ballot access drive at http://www.lp.org or http://www.lpar.org.
Thanks so much!
http://youtu.be/VqF1Al8Ig-U
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-peron/the-night-i-was-ready-to-_b_7177368.html
meanwhile:
I think Andy has me beat on that score, though….
Yes it has. For me, too…
Oops.
I meant John Updike!!
It’s been a long week.
Also a great John Cheever novel.
Run, rabbit, run….
Yeah Paulie, you’re right about Chris.
Shout out to my dad, Leszek Stefan Lesiak. Team Liberty Polska…I love you dad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzzl86ob_K0
This is my favorite Tech song by far, so I’m reposting it. May is an awesome month. The Spring Awakening of the Golden Dawn (Black and Yellow) of Anarchy has begun! I Love You Anetko. Kocham Cie. #NotAfraidToTakeAStand
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2r8kBnGtAU
via http://amthirdpartyreport.com/2015/05/01/may-2015-open-thread/ by William Saturn
Nice, I got to be the first to sound off here :3
Heads up, recently did an article on ATPR-
http://amthirdpartyreport.com/2015/05/01/sanpete-county-constitution-party-of-utah-features-pedophile-as-their-guest-speaker/