Drudge Report Links to Wayne Allyn Root Obama/Columbia Article

Earlier tonight Matt Drudge (http://www.drudgereport.com) posted a link to an article authored by Wayne Allyn Root in what Mike Riggs, an associate editor at Reason magazine, in a critique titled “Wayne Allyn Root Is Why the Libertarian Party Can’t Have Nice Things” describes as:

This awful, weird, conspiratorial column . . . will probably be the most widely read thing Root has ever written.

See: http://reason.com/blog/2012/08/06/wayne-allyn-root-is-why-the-libertarian

In the article Wayne Allyn Root (credited as, “a former Libertarian vice presidential nominee and the author of “The Conscience of a Libertarian.” He now serves as Chairman of the Libertarian National Campaign Committee. He is a regular guest on Fox News and hundreds of radio shows across America. He is also a gun-slinging, riverboat gambling, entrepreneur and capitalist evangelist. His web site: www.ROOTforAmerica.com“) offers the following advice to Governor Mitt Romney and makes a related (“gut-based”) prediction:

Romney should call a press conference and issue a challenge in front of the nation. He should agree to release more of his tax returns, only if Obama unseals his college records. . . . Mitt should ask “What could possibly be so embarrassing in your college records from 29 years ago, that you are afraid to let America’s voters see it? If it’s THAT bad, maybe it’s something the voters ought to see.”. . . Once this challenge is made public, my prediction is you’ll never hear about Mitt’s tax returns ever again.

See: http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/obama%E2%80%99s-college-classmate-the-obama-scandal-is-at-columbia

Mike Riggs concludes his review of the article with the following:

. . . the fact that Root writes about Romney as if Gary Johnson did not exist is awful. What’s worse is that articles like Root’s repel the kind of people Johnson needs in November. . .

 

194 thoughts on “Drudge Report Links to Wayne Allyn Root Obama/Columbia Article

  1. just release the B Obama and J Holder student files!

    CNN has been debating opening up the University of Colorado’s records on the alleged Batman killer.

    Obama has killed far more people, so of course we should examine his school records as well.

    It’s time for transparency in student and psychiatric records for all spree killers, Presidents included.

  2. just orangelining

    No one is surprised that Reason is shocked, SHOCKED that Mr WAR, in calling out Obama as a foreigner, has violated consensus reality.

    How many Reason staffers themselves hold foreign passports?

    The answer may or may not surprise you.

    Reason is correct in that Mr WAR was rude to Gov Johnson by not offering him the same advice he offered Romney — call out aka Obama as a foreigner!

    Since the article was on the Mormon Blaze site the article was geared toward Romney voters. Mr WAR should write on this subject for the LP News addressing Johnson voters.

  3. Jill Pyeatt

    I read Root’s article earlier today, and decided it wasn’t worth getting upset over. I find Root’s obsession with Obama quite embarrassing for the party, though, and I’m amazed to hear the writer from Reason say what many of us in the party think. Wayne Allyn Root is indeed a reason our party is standing still at this time. He confuses people by repeating right-wing talking points and talking about Romney as if he really is a better candidate than Obama. Wayne really needs to go back to the Republicans, where his heart obviously is. He can still hawk his brand of conservative libertarian, but just give it a more appropriate name, like the Tea Party or something.

  4. just saying

    If a third party isn’t talking sh*t about the sitting President, it’s useless.

  5. Joe Buchman Post author

    On LNC Discuss yesterday, Mr. Root repeated his “you are losing me” statement.

    My sense is he’s hoping to come up with a good enough “help Romney” idea that he will be invited to join that administration — while keeping the back door to the LP open in case Romney loses (especially if that loss is blamed on Gary Johnson).

    Personally I wish he would quit the LP, rather than continue his (self-declared frustrated) efforts to change the LP into the TEA Party.

  6. Brian Holtz

    This article is worth getting upset over, but do we really have so many Libertarians inside our tent that we can be inviting some to leave?

    I don’t see how jumping on the Birther bandwagon helps promote the Libertarian brand as an alternative to Left and Right. How does a column of advice for Romney make this Root’s “most important commentary ever”? Doesn’t the LNCC Chair have more important things to write about?

  7. Joe Buchman Post author

    Brian,

    >>Doesn’t the LNCC Chair have more important things to write about?< < Where's any news about all the campaigns the LNCC is supporting/funding/promoting? Their website is a promotional vehicle for their chair, and nothing else as far as I can tell. >>do we really have so many Libertarians inside our tent that we can be inviting some to leave?<< Yes. If they've become the public ambassador for a distorted version of the LP that is keeping other people away. I wish Wayne had run for the Constitution Party VP slot in 2008. He would be, IMO, MUCH happier over there now.

  8. Thomas L. Knapp

    Over time, I’ve come to think that Root actually convinces himself that the stuff he’s saying is true, even though at one time he knew it wasn’t.

    For example, I’m sure he really believes these days that he got a star on the Vegas walk because of his handicapping accuracy, even though he surely knew at the time that he actually got it because (cough) someone (cough) anonymously (cough) wrote a check to the company that puts the stars there for anyone who writes a check.

  9. Thane Eichenauer

    I don’t think the article by Root is worth getting upset over. If the folks at The Blaze or Drudge still have an interest in what Obama did or didn’t do at Columbia University then let them be entertained by the issues they are interested in.

    Covering articles by Root that are irrelevant to non-duopolists is worth getting upset (a little) over.

  10. langa

    I wish Wayne had run for the Constitution Party VP slot in 2008. He would be, IMO, MUCH happier over there now.

    You should check out the CP platform, especially the section on gambling. Root would be about as welcome in the CP as Larry Flynt would be.

  11. RedPhillips

    I said the exact same thing a month a go.

    http://conservativetimes.org/?p=11782

    Romney should say he’ll release his tax returns as soon as Obama releases his college transcripts, allows forensic examination of his BC and Selective Service Registration, etc.

    It is perfectly normal human nature to suspect there may be something in Romney’s tax records he doesn’t want us to see and there may be something in Obama’s records he may not want us to see.

    People who say they don’t want to see what Obama may be hiding are allowing their taint/conspiracy squeamishness to override their natural human curiosity.

    If people want to be deliberately incurious, then I don’t get it but OK. But it is not OK for the press to be deliberately incurious.

  12. bruuno

    Out of curiosity, has Mitt Romney released his college transcripts? Oh wait, no he hasn’t. Must be because he is hiding the fact that he had 6 wives.
    Seriously folks, this is very stupid and little more than the latest obsession of the birthers. And by the way, few presidential candidates have released their college transcripts.

  13. paulie

    Brian,

    If you find time, read

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LNCDiscussPublic/message/1700

    and

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LNCDiscussPublic/message/1579

    Wayne does not want anything that helps promote the Libertarian brand as an alternative to Left and Right.

    He wants us to be the true conservatives, a “Republican Party that really means it” on the economic issues, and dump our peace and civil liberties positions completely.

    He says so openly and repeatedly on LNC Discuss, and everyone on LNC discuss is now well aware that the conversation is being publicly posted on LNCDiscussPublic.

  14. Stewart Flood

    How many ways can we say this:

    Let’s get to the ROOT of the problem

    Dig the problem up by the ROOTS

    ROOT out the problem

    ROOT-N-TOOT’N big problem!

    He’s looking for an out. That has been clear to me since last December, when Mr Johnson’s campaign killed Root’s plans for the 2012 or 2016 nomination.

    The LNCC does not want to help candidates. I’ve been talking about that for several years, and shouting about it for several months since they have no interest in helping campaigns, especially if they have any chance of victory. (Yes, we really have one here in South Carolina!)

  15. paulie

    Jill,

    “Wayne Allyn Root is indeed a reason our party is standing still at this time. ”

    No, I think Wayne is a convenient excuse for that.

    The reason why we are standing still is that those of us with a better ideological framing have not been as aggressive as Wayne about getting noticed.

    There is precious little activism and outreach taking place. The discussions we have are all too often circular and internal.

    Instead of taking time complaining about Wayne…because he will keep doing what he does regardless of what we think about it…use that time to help get Gary Johnson (or local candidates) more media interviews, more speaking events with local candidates, more poll inclusion….

    Make your own youtube videos…

    Write letters to the editor…

    Put up some signs and stickers….

    There are thousands of things we should be doing.

    Let Wayne do his thing and let us do ours.

    The votes are not there to remove him for cause, if anyone tries it will just suck up time and energy.

    But…if we get lots of attention for peace and civil liberties issues being associated with the Libertarian brand…and our economic position explained in a way that is bottom-up and compassionate rather than top-down and selfish….Wayne will have to either adjust or leave.

    Our lack of activity that defines the LP allows Wayne to define it for us.

    The answer isn’t to focus on Wayne, but to have a lot more activity that defines the LP differently than he does.

  16. Brian Holtz

    I don’t see in there where Root says we should “dump our peace and civil liberties positions completely”. I see him saying we should not emphasize pot or gay marriage or open borders. He’s right about open borders (which is not even in our platform), but he’s spectacularly wrong about pot and gay marriage, which are two of our best issues.

    I agree with almost everything I see you write on LNCDiscuss. Please keep trying to raise the quality (or decrease the quantity) of debate on that forum.

  17. Rev fatsax

    Paulie, you are talking about leadership, right? Ok. Who are this parties elected leaders? And what are they doing to organize? We all got a thrill of NOTA…but now we literally have no leadership. Root has one thing we need, access to airtime, the frustration we have is that the airtime he has is directly tied to his following of orders. It looks like he is a puppet, and i just wish he would take one for the team, and put principle and party first. The only thing he handicaps now is the lp.

  18. paulie

    I don’t see in there where Root says we should “dump our peace and civil liberties positions completely”. I see him saying we should not emphasize pot or gay marriage or open borders.

    He only wants to emphasize issues that appeal to conservatives. That’s what the Tea Parties started out doing, and now a significant amount of Tea Party activism is actually devoted to anti-liberty activism on the social and foreign policy issues.

    I agree with almost everything I see you write on LNCDiscuss. Please keep trying to raise the quality (or decrease the quantity) of debate on that forum.

    Thank you. I do what I can but I must admit to being frustrated in my inability to get the other people on the LNC focused on nuts and bolts strategy issues.

    As for open borders, where is the LP emphasizing that issue? Our platform favors checkpoints but not quota restrictions on the number of immigrants, and our website and candidates rarely make that any kind of priority.

    Personally I favor national borders that are as open as state and county borders but I am in the distinct minority even in the LP on this now, and out of line with our current platform. I really don’t see the LP pushing my position, or even the no quotas position that is in fact still in our platform, to any meaningful extent. I haven’t seen Gary Johnson’s campaign make a big issue of it either.

  19. paulie

    Paulie, you are talking about leadership, right? Ok. Who are this parties elected leaders? And what are they doing to organize?

    The LNC (along with state and local committees) are the party’s elected leaders. As for what we are doing to organize, there are a few things, such as the new management of the facebook page that is starting to bring in more members, and Geoff’s proposal last night to raise money to advertise on Stossel’s show on TV, and a few other things.

    The other – equally correct – answer to your question is NOT ENOUGH. I keep trying to make that point on the LNC list. We get a lot of responses about the 2018 convention – not exactly a pressing issue – and lots of responses to the back and forth between Wayne and other people … but very few responses about nuts and bolts topics….like this:

    =====================

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LNCDiscussPublic/message/1652

    On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 9:03 AM, Brett H. Pojunis wrote:

    Please suggest supported ideas to build the party and support our affiliates… productive things…

    Best,

    Brett H. Pojunis

    p] I’ve suggested several of those – most did not even get any responses at all on this list.

    Maybe it’s because I’m new and didn’t have a suit to wear in Vegas. But Dr. Lark has been around as long as anyone on the LNC, and he has had a suit to wear most times I’ve seen him….he suggested a variety of topics for discussion about building the party and supporting affiliates as well…and how much discussion did they get on this list?

    Instead just about all people want to talk about seems to be A) ideological positioning issues (over which we have very limited control — we are not the LPHQ staff or the platform committee or in charge of the state and local parties to any meaningful extent, etc…and even to the extent that we could have any impact on those, the discussions are typically circular and repetitive with no motions being proposed or voted on by those of you who are full voting members) — and B) internal LNC policies.

    We do need to focus on a lot of productive ideas for improving the party …

    Like getting better training for affiliates…

    Publicizing existing training materials to affiliates better…

    Improving institutional memory…

    Field organizers…

    Better membership recruitment and retention techniques…

    Project fundraising vs general fundraising…

    Among many other issues that get very little traction on LNC-discuss.

    How do we turn this around?

    -paulie 415-690-6352
    _______________________________________________
    Lnc-discuss mailing list

    Root has one thing we need, access to airtime, the frustration we have is that the airtime he has is directly tied to his following of orders.

    Gary Johnson gets airtime. Ron Paul gets airtime. Harry Browne got airtime.

    Loreta Nall got airtime with “more of these boobs and less of these boobs”. James Babb got airtime with “we won’t fly.” Carol Moore made Nightline.

    Starchild has has airtime.

    It can be done.

  20. Joseph

    I am astonished by the reaction to a non-event. If you do not like what WAR wrote then write your own article(s) and get them published. My gut feeling – we will not be seeing any of them any time soon. I do not recall a loyalty oath as part of the LP. If WAR does not believe himself to be a libertarian I am quite certain he would not be in the LP. Also if we did not have WAR to stir things up a bit what a boring place the LP would be. For if we rely solely on the LNC to set us to right (sorry, Mother said ‘If you can’t say something nice don’t say anything at all). Leave WAR alone, I wish more people would do as much as him for the LP.

  21. Mark Hilgenberg

    Joseph @ 24
    “If you do not like what WAR wrote then write your own article(s) and get them published.”

    It is very hard to do unless you are feeding into the scripted debate, WAR does this perfectly, he gives the media the impression that we are just extreme angry right wing conservatives. They will publish that all day long, it fits their bias.

    We need to stop feeding their agenda and create our own with local and alternative media. Unfortunately due to their bias they see us as hate mongers and ignore us. Over the years I have been able to break through that a little but it is very difficult when blasting from the top are right wing conspiracies being called libertarianism.

  22. RevFatsax

    @24 Joseph…two months ago, there wasn’t a stronger supporter of Wayne Root in the LP. I was the state chair for the convention, and we got along great. It seemed like any time I saw him, he was helping raise money and awareness for libertarian ideals and candidates. The speach he gave at a Gary Johnson fundraiser I organized at Grape Street Cafe was wonderful…but then cameras and radio microphones changed his message of Libertarian ideas to “Mitt is better than Obama”. There have been opportunities (marijuana in Colorado, Chic Fil A Gay stance, military use and abuse across the world) and instead of showing how level headed, logical and caring a party we are, he focusses on Obama’s transcripts, Obama’s economics and Romney’s strategy to defeat Obama. I am sorry, but let Romney defeat Obama on those issues if he can, we can run a campaign on our ideals that don’t discriminate against ANY individual. I heard FOX say, “Marriage is a contract, contracts can be limitted and managed by the states.” Really…because a contract that says a white man can own a black man was controlled by the states and a war ensued. Tell me again how Wayne is doing so much for us Libertarians who aren’t bigots and war loving republicans in hiding. I will leave him alone when he realizes that religious republicans won’t leave the RP, and anyone who thinks Obama is Indonesian is probably not going to subscribe to the notion that Romney is no better than Obama. Show me ONE libertarian who is voting for Gary because of Wayne. Let that be the benchmark for his success as a Libertarian leader or mouthpiece.

  23. Joseph

    I appreciate the responses of both @25 and @26. I do not necessarily disagree with the viewpoints. My objective was to highlight the amount of energy and time expended against WAR. If that was instead directed toward writing articles, letters to the editor, walking the neighborhood, whatever then progress is made. Notice directed toward rather than expended against. It is a philosophical thing. Once we get over playing the victim or the pitiful creature and focus our message, which is our strength, we gain a toehold. Truth be told over the last dozen years I have seen little, if any, direction, strategy, or tactical plan to get us beyond the debating society we were 40 years ago. If we did not have rabble rousers, whether or not you agree with them, getting us attention we would get no attention at all.

  24. P

    My objective was to highlight the amount of energy and time expended against WAR. If that was instead directed toward writing articles, letters to the editor, walking the neighborhood, whatever then progress is made. Notice directed toward rather than expended against. It is a philosophical thing. Once we get over playing the victim or the pitiful creature and focus our message, which is our strength, we gain a toehold.

    Thank you…my point exactly.

    Truth be told over the last dozen years I have seen little, if any, direction, strategy, or tactical plan to get us beyond the debating society we were 40 years ago.

    I’m doing what I can. Do you have any specifics you would like to suggest? Possible language for motions would help.

    See for context:

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LNCDiscussPublic/message/1652

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LNCDiscussPublic/message/1665

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LNCDiscussPublic/message/1668

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LNCDiscussPublic/message/1687

  25. RedPhillips

    “Matt Welch, REASON”

    I’m shocked! Just shocked! That the Beltwaytarians (a.k.a. cosmotarians) at Reason Magazine are squealing at the slightest hint of conspiracy? Who could have predicted it? Something like this has never happened before.

  26. Mark Hilgenberg

    @ 27 Joseph,

    I do agree, sitting around and complaining won’t work. I have just recently gotten back into activism after taking most of the 00’s off , seeing the neocon rush after 911 and my health, told me to take time off.

    Prior to that I was very active back in CA and many of us were making inroads to the youth and the left, the biggest thing we did was help to change perceptions.

    Here is an article I wrote for the Advocates for Self Gov back then. http://www.facebook.com/notes/mark-hilgenberg/take-over-your-local-weekly-socialist-rag/10150186098157699

    Now that I am in Utah I am very happy to see our party focus away from the right. One of our candidates was just endorsed by EqualityUtah a LGBT rights group which has always only endorsed Democrats in past elections, we are very excited about that. We are also making good inroads with many groups and movements which originally thought of us as conservatives.

    It takes time but we are working on it, I sure wish we didn’t have to apologize for Roots type of image so much though.

  27. just saying

    The Reason writer has half-assedly apologized for Communist-style racist-baiting in the comments section.

  28. paulie

    @31

    Meanwhile, you haven’t even attempted to explain why you described Jill Stein as a “zionist professor”….want to give it a try?

    Just silly….

  29. Jill Pyeatt

    There are several ways for a Libertarian article to get published, besides letters to editors, and so on. My husband has had luck with Oped News, which is notoriously liberal. Also, local activism is something to explore. Come up with a topic to speak about and offer to speak at the local regional meetings. For those of us who need to sit at a desk much of the time, social media goes a long way to educate people. I’ve acquired quite a few Ron Paul fans through Facebook, and I hope they read my comments about issues they might not normally have thought about. Actually, I know that to be true because of questions friends and family ask me about the LP. We All have to just keep doing what we ca.

  30. Jill Pyeatt

    Having said what I just did in comment 33, I have to admit it would be a lot easier if we didn’t have Root out there confusing the masses.

  31. Pingback: Wayne Allyn Root Gives Romney the Same Advice I Gave Him a Month Ago | Conservative Heritage Times

  32. bruuno

    #31- I thought the “Root doesn’t remember seeing any black people” was pretty funny considering Root’s entire argument rests on so pathetically little (the fact that he doesn’t personally remember him though plenty of others do).

  33. paulie

    I have to admit it would be a lot easier if we didn’t have Root out there confusing the masses.

    He feels the same way about us.

  34. RedPhillips

    The problem with conspiracy phobia is that it makes normally smart people stupid and normally thoughtful people faithful regurgitators of the conventional wisdom. The same way that default conspiracy theorizing makes people lose their good sense.

    I would not be as definitive with my speculation as Root was because you look silly if you are proven wrong, but what is Root actually alleging? That Obama attented school as a foreign student. This has been much speculated as a reason why BO hasn’t released his school records. It may not be true. It may be true. But it is not really that out there an allegation. But for conspiracy phobics all you have to do is label something with the c word and all things become equal. No further thought is required. In the world of the conspiracy phobics that BO is fibbing about his background and trying to cover it up is right up there with the spaceship moon theory.

    So no one has ever falsified their background and then been stuck with the lie? So I guess George O’Leary really did play college ball and all those people who said he didn’t are just a bunch of harebrained conspiracy theorist.

    That someone falsified their background is, in fact, a rather mundane allegation. So all you conspiracy phobics need to get off your high horses and tell the press to do their job, investigate, so we can move on. I did more investigating to figure out the venue of the Robby Wells Ron Paul photo than most of the MSM has done on Obama’s background. But I know, I know, we should all just take BO’s word for it because we all know that politicians NEVER lie.

  35. John Jay Myers

    This is so simple and most people just miss the point, I am tired of people saying “Wayne can do his part and we will do ours”. We can’t do our part because everyone we appeal to, thinks we are douche bags with a douche bag leader.

    We are only looking to appeal to people who are or could be libertarian. I am sorry, I am not looking to appeal to people who can’t get behind a huge chunk of our platform.

    This party would be 20 times its current size if we just had a quarter of the Liberty movement involved in it. From there we could spread a message that would catch across the United States, when Reason magazine and many other groups in the movement make fun of us and some even hate us, because of Root, it’s easy to see that Root is a huge problem for us.

    This is a recurring conversation, it’s like ground hog day, about once a month we all say “Oh my god, I can’t believe he did that!”

    Well, it isn’t going to stop. He needs to make the switch.

  36. NewFederalist

    Paulie @ 37… it seems to me you have changed your opinion of Root. Is that true or a misperception on my part?

  37. paulie

    it seems to me you have changed your opinion of Root. Is that true or a misperception on my part?

    How have I changed my opinion?

    We can’t do our part because everyone we appeal to, thinks we are douche bags with a douche bag leader.

    Why would he be considered the leader?

    You could be the leader, you could get as much media as he does.

    Seriously, I’m not being hyperbolic here.

    I think you have that potential.

    I am sorry, I am not looking to appeal to people who can’t get behind a huge chunk of our platform.

    I’m with you on that.

    This party would be 20 times its current size if we just had a quarter of the Liberty movement involved in it. From there we could spread a message that would catch across the United States

    Amen!

    Reason magazine and many other groups in the movement make fun of us and some even hate us, because of Root,

    It’s not because of Root.

    They were doing it before Root switched to the LP and he is just their latest excuse to make negative comments about the LP.

    The actual reasons have to do with faction fights in the LP back in the 1970s and 1980s when the founders of these organizations were still in the LP, which they have never gotten over all these years later. Sad but true.

    Well, it isn’t going to stop. He needs to make the switch.

    You mean the switch to being our kind of libertarian? Or back to the GOP?

    Either way, he will only do it if we do what I am saying we should do. Until then don’t hold your breath.

  38. RedPhillips

    “when Reason magazine … make fun of us and some even hate us, because of Root,”

    Then call them out as what they are, a bunch of prisses who are afraid of getting their skirts dirty.

    And Paulie is right, a lot of this has to do with faction fights in the LP, but those factions represent certain enduring types.

  39. John Jay Myers

    Sorry guys, but I don’t feel the same way you do. Our target audience is Libertarians, first and foremost, Wayne turns off that demographic, so we have no base, we have no money and we have no support.

    Wayne gets attention and is only asked onto news programs because he is willing to say the most outrageous bombastic things.

    I am starting to see horrible things again in this campaign, basically a complete media black out that I even exist. I am even having to fight every day to keep my picture up on wikipedia.

    Wayne is no threat to the powers that be, so he gets on the media.

  40. bruuno

    I will take your claims/demands a little more seriously Red when you ask for Romney’s college transcripts as well. Also Gary Johnson, Virgil Goode, and Jill Stein while your at it.
    You got NOTHING to back up this ‘conspiracy’ theory. You don’t have a single person who claims they saw Obama’s record (or knew him at the time to claim) that he was claiming to be a ‘foreign student’. It is, quite frankly, beyond pathetic that this crap is still being spread.

  41. Dennis

    I still don’t understand Root’s logic. Lets bring non-libertarians into a party that is based around libertarian philosophy so that we dilute it to the point where it isn’t Libertarian anymore, but a hodgepodge of moderate Republicans? Why? How does it benefit the Libertarian Party to be full of people who don’t share their goals? A party exists to advance ideas by electing candidates to office. Why the Hell would anyone want to have a party full of people–and candidates–that don’t support the ideals laid out by the party’s own platform?

  42. Mark Hilgenberg

    @ John

    I agree with your posts but I also want to expound on part of it, we should be appealing to more than just “libertarians”, unfortunately so many people think they are “libertarians” because they have views like Wayne’s or they are the “leave me alone” Rand types. I don’t feel they will be any better for us long term but they should be welcomed, just not our target.

    We need to find people who see liberty as “WE” centered, people who see the value we promote as a benefit for all, not just for “ME” as the WAR crowd or Rand crowd promote. The youth fit this bill, they are collectivist minded but in the way of wanting to work together, not to force agendas.

    Every activist and party leader needs to read this, it is by the leading demographer of our time, I have been following his research for years, he is right on the money. If we can master this stuff, we will have the youth clamoring to our party.

    http://us4.campaign-archive1.com/?u=2da200dadfadb9b53f9bf07a2&id=9ce77af2c6

  43. Dennis

    The Libertarian Party can attract those who desire libertarian economics without deliberately discarding civil liberties–like Wayne wants to.

  44. NewFederalist

    it seems to me you have changed your opinion of Root. Is that true or a misperception on my part?

    How have I changed my opinion?

    I feel like you are less tolerant of him. Like I said it might just be a misperception on my part.

  45. Mark Hilgenberg

    @ Dennis 48

    I don’t think so, most people in that camp desire GOP economics, meaning corporatism, limited regulations with more protections and privileges for corporations, owners and executives.

  46. Stewart Flood

    Faction fights may have started it, but this is a much more clear and present danger than the memory of a fight from twenty years ago.

    Root is trying to change what the libertarian movement is about. While there may be disagreements within the movement about which forms of liberty must be restored first, we all believe in liberty and personal freedom.

    But those who follow the economics only model and say that americans do not care about personal freedom are not libertarians and they are wrong.

    We cannot convert socialists.

    We cannot convert the religious right.

    We cannot even convert Root. He’s looking for a reason to leave. He can’t just own up to the fact that he’s more afraid of Obama having a second term than he is of the damage a first term Romney will do. Both of these choices should scare a libertarian, but Root is only scared of one of them.

    Enough said about Root. We need to build the movement and he’s in the way. We need to start calling him what he is: a neo-libertarian. (using the urban dictionary definition http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Neo-Libertarian )

  47. langa

    There is really a clear method for converting people (from either the left or the right) to libertarianism. However, Root is either unaware of this method, or is simply uninterested in converting people to libertarianism.

    The first step is to build rapport with the convert by emphasizing areas where they already hold libertarian views. (If there are no such areas, the person is probably a poor candidate for conversion). The second step is to slowly introduce them to libertarian views that conflict with their preexisting views. The final step is to help them realize that where their preexisting views conflict with the libertarian position, this is because their preexisting views are incorrect.

    Root is not bad at Step 1. However, he rarely gets to Step 2, and he never gets to Step 3.

  48. Tom Blanton

    Our target audience is Libertarians, first and foremost, Wayne turns off that demographic, so we have no base, we have no money and we have no support.

    This statement is so simple, straightforward and logical it is fundamentally irrefutable.

    But, Mr. Smith ain’t ever going to Washington as long as Mr. Smith is not a Republican or a Democrat, so it really doesn’t matter too much.

  49. Ted Brown

    This morning Rush Limbaugh read the Root column in its entirety, about 10 minutes of air time, where he clearly listed Wayne’s LP affiliation. When he began with that, I was afraid that Wayne had endorsed Romney, or else why would Rush bring it up. But the article was rather interesting, I think, and does bring up a lot of questions about Obama’s background that haven’t been clearly answered. However, it looks like Wayne is trying to help Romney — and who the heck would want to do that!

  50. RedPhillips

    Bruuno, what is “beyond pathetic” is your willingness to shill for the conventional wisdom.

    From my understanding, Romney has not released his college transcripts. For the sake of his failure to release his records not being an issue, I wish he would. As a matter of course, I don’t think it is necessary for all candidates to release their college records and have said so in the past. The issue with Obama is the whole pattern of secrecy. If it was just the college records without the other things he is concealing in the context of a murky background, then it wouldn’t be a big deal. Why won’t he release his passport records for example? What could be embarrassing about them?

    See bruuno, what I just demonstrated above is an example of natural curiosity and this thing some of us like to call thinking. You should try it instead of lapping up the conventional wisdom the MSM and a self-interested candidate feed you.

  51. P

    JJM

    “Sorry guys, but I don’t feel the same way you do. Our target audience is Libertarians, first and foremost, Wayne turns off that demographic, so we have no base, we have no money and we have no support.”

    And were we getting them before Wayne joined the LP? No? Why not?

    The fault, my friend, is not Wayne Root, but in ourselves.

    And if Wayne is making it harder to sell our message…to me that just means we need to work twice as hard.

    Compete and win or die.

    Complaining about Wayne will get nothing accomplished.

    Rise to the challenge or be left in the dust. We have no other choice.

    “Wayne gets attention and is only asked onto news programs because he is willing to say the most outrageous bombastic things.”

    That is part of it. But, see @23. Wayne is not the only LP member who gets media. There are others. We don’t necessarily have to dilute our message; just work hard, smart and persistently.

    “I am starting to see horrible things again in this campaign, basically a complete media black out that I even exist. I am even having to fight every day to keep my picture up on wikipedia.”

    Get used to it. It happens every election. It happened long before Wayne joined the LP, too. There are ways to overcome it though.

    “Wayne is no threat to the powers that be, so he gets on the media.”

    Was Harry Browne a threat to the powers that be? Are Ron Paul and Gary Johnson threats to the powers that be? Because they all get/got media too.

    It can be done; it’s not easy; but we need to do… or die.

    MH

    “We need to find people who see liberty as “WE” centered, people who see the value we promote as a benefit for all,[///] The youth fit this bill,”

    Exactly!

    Stewart

    “He can’t just own up to the fact that he’s more afraid of Obama having a second term than he is of the damage a first term Romney will do. Both of these choices should scare a libertarian, but Root is only scared of one of them.”

    He owns up to it all the time.

    Both of them scare me, though.

    “We cannot convert socialists.

    We cannot convert the religious right.”

    We can convert some of each but not most of either one.

  52. ATBAFT

    Not one of the several proto-libertarians I’m currently trying to persuade to cast a vote for GJ have ever heard of Wayne Root. Within our small clique, he’s big news. Within those we wish to persuade, he’s no one. The objections to joining the LP are over one or two planks – abortion or immigration or non-inteventionism.
    Or “we have to hold our nose and vote for Romney to keep Obama from winning a second term.”

  53. Root Sucks

    I’m continually confused by the Root apologists here on IPR.

    Actually, no I’m not. Root probably has dozens of usernames on this site solely for the purpose of self promotion.

  54. P

    Missed this one

    NF

    “I feel like you are less tolerant of him. Like I said it might just be a misperception on my part.”

    Misperception, unless you can show me some specifics.

    My view of Mr. Root has been consistent for some time as far as I know.

    I admire his work ethic and energy.

    I’m not happy that he wants to de-emphasize the very issues I want the LP to emphasize more.

    I’m not happy to the extent that he sees us as getting in his way or that people on my side use him as am excuse for not getting more accomplished. In reality I think we can both bring in different people if we keep at it.

    I think both sides of this argument under-estimate the extent to which people who would never join the LP anyway are just using Root (or on the other side, us) as an excuse to not do what they wouldn’t do anyway.

    I wish people on my side of the LP would see Root as a reason to rise to the challenge and work harder, not as an excuse for why we are where we are…when we weren’t any better off before he showed up.

    None of this is going to fall in our laps…Ron Paul or no Ron Paul…Wayne Root or no Wayne Root…we’re just going to have to work harder, smarter, and more persistently.

    There is no way around it.

    It won’t fall in our laps.

    And, if we try, we won’t succeed as much as we want…but we’ll succeed more than we have.

    Have I changed my opinion of any of that?

    Not any time recently as far as I know.

  55. P

    “I’m continually confused by the Root apologists here on IPR.

    Actually, no I’m not. Root probably has dozens of usernames on this site solely for the purpose of self promotion.”

    As far as I know Wayne has never posted under any name other than his own at IPR and has not posted in some time. I checked IPs. I have no reason to believe he is ghost posting.

    -Paulie

  56. Michael H. Wilson

    John Jay Myers @ 44 I have to agree with Paulie. Where are the materials we need to develop new management? Why is the web site out of date and historically inaccurate? Where is the new and up to date literature?

    I was sadly disappointed to read what was taking place at the last LNC meeting. There must be an effort in place to build this organization and it is not being developed today.

  57. Michael H. Wilson

    Issues in the news make for great new ideas. The New York Times has an article on page one today about a problem with a hospital company in Florida (Ihaven’t read it yet. Just glanced at the headlines) that might help us develop some press coverage.

    I believe that these state medical boards that license doctors aren’t worth a bucket of spit to put it politely. This article gives the LP an opportunity to point out that the one in Florida has failed and that patients have suffered and probably died. The failure is most likely due to what is known as regulatory capture and it happens with all of these self policing boards, lawyers, doctors, etc. LP members in different states might even demand to know what is going on in their own states. To be blunt about it, the Institute of Medicine published a report in 1999 title “To Err is Human”. In it they pointed out that 44,000 to 98,000 people die annually from medical errors. So ask the press in your state how many MDs have had the license yanked because their patients died or because they do unnecessary surgery.

  58. Bob

    This is embarrassing on so many levels. Root has no evidence other than The Voices In His Head. He’s too lazy or stupid to check whether his assertions are even possible.

    Memo to Root: You don’t lose your citizenship if you move abroad, and nobody can revoke your citizenship for you, and the U.S. doesn’t accept revocations from little kids. And did you think that Obama attended 4th Grade at Punahou School, Hawaii under a foreign student visa?

    Root should also check out the distinction between “foreign exchange student” and “foreign student”.

  59. Thomas L. Knapp

    Bob@63,

    All good points.

    The “pattern of secrecy” complaint falls into two parts — one unreasonable, the other reasonable but explicable.

    The unreasonable part is the “birth certificate”/”born in Kenya” horseshit. No presidential candidate in American history has ever had his “natural born citizen” bona fides more closely examined than Obama, and there remains no reasonable doubt whatsoever that he is a “natural born American citizen.” Anyone still grinding that ax is stupid, crazy, dishonest, or some combination of the three.

    The reasonable but explicable parts — passport, student records, etc. — pretty much add up to “as a college student of such ancestry and connections as were quite useful for the role, he probably worked for the Central Intelligence Agency.”

  60. just focused

    @32 The topic is Reason’s Communist-style racist baiting, not yours. Don’t be such a diva.

  61. just focused

    @63 — The State Department has released in response to FOIA requests, Stanley Ann Dunham’s passport records. On them, she fills in the appropriate boxes forsaking her son’s right to travel on his passport seeing has how he now American.

    Barry started Punahou in fifth grade. He has claimed he took fourth grade in Indonesia (where second grade school records indicate he was an Indonesian and a Muslim); but photographic evidence puts him at Noelani Elementary in Hawaii.

    There is no evidence that Punahou would refuse to educate a foreign student. What evidence do you have that Punahou did such? Perhaps we should request Obama’s records from Punahou to settle your accusation.

    Right now, the only record we have from Punahou is where the malignant narcissistic monarchist wrote “KING OBAMA” in the wet concrete.

    Hope this helps.

  62. paulie

    Communist-style racist baiting

    So you have no explanation for the idiotic statement that you made that Jill Stein is a “zionist professor.”

    Just exposed.

    Don’t be such a bigot.

    Hope this helps anyone who thought you may have any credibility at all about anything.

  63. RedPhillips

    “Memo to Root: You don’t lose your citizenship if you move abroad, and nobody can revoke your citizenship for you, and the U.S. doesn’t accept revocations from little kids.”

    Bob, whether Obama really was a foreign student is an issue, but it’s not really the only potential issue here. Root is alleging he attended “as” a foreign student. If Obama identified himself as a foreign student in order to gain an entrance advantage and/or get aid, that would still be a game changer whether he technically was a foreign student or not.

  64. just focused

    @68 — This thread is about how Obama is a foreign usurper. Stop trying to distract from the foreign tyranny oppressing America with your silly off-topic Communism.

  65. paulie

    This thread is about how Obama is a foreign usurper

    No, it’s not. It’s about Wayne’s contention that he may have falsely claimed to be a foreigner to gain admission to college, and about media and movement reactions to that contention.

    But since you dragged your bigotry here, it’s worthwhile to point out that you called Jill Stein, who supports the Palestinian cause, a “zionist professor,” and have been utterly unwilling or unable to defend that bigoted and nonsensical characterization.

    Your further attempts to deflect attention from your bigotry by calling me a communist won’t work either, since regular readers here already know that I am a refugee from communist tyranny myself and an activist for minimizing monopoly government as much as possible and eliminating it altogether if and when possible.

    Now, either go shave that mustache or let it grow all the way out on the sides…it looks ridiculous….and for Jah’s sake, do something about that stray strand of hair always hanging down across your forehead….sheesh!

  66. paulie

    If Obama identified himself as a foreign student in order to gain an entrance advantage and/or get aid, that would still be a game changer whether he technically was a foreign student or not.

    Maybe so, but if that is case, Rmoney’s taxes are certainly an issue as well.

    Or, we can take the approach that both are a distraction from the real issues.

    If the candidates were somehow disqualified and replaced by, say, Biden and Republican X (where x =/= Ron Paul), would we be any closer to solving this country’s problems? Somehow I think we would not.

  67. Thomas L. Knapp

    RP @ 69,

    “If Obama identified himself as a foreign student in order to gain an entrance advantage and/or get aid, that would still be a game changer ”

    It would be interesting.

    It would be an issue.

    I doubt if it would be a game changer.

    Especially if the explanation was “I was working my way through school by doing things for the Central Intelligence Agency — things that were made easier by holding myself out as an Indonesian national via my stepfather, which was among the reasons I was recruited in the first place (another reason being my father’s political prominence in Kenya; I was able to travel the world as an American but with a third world socialist/anti-colonialist pedigree, which opened certain doors”).

  68. From Der Sidelines

    Holy carp! Holtzie made sense!

    Nah, it must be an impersonatot. He’s still listed as locked in the asylum and his next conjugal visit isn’t until later in the month.

    😛

    As for Rooty-Tooty-He’s-All-Fruity…

    Let the bookie leave, and let the door hit him in the head, no, butt, no, head, well, actually both, on the way out.

    Anybody have an over/under on the date that happens?

  69. From Der Sidelines

    @73: Sure it would be a gamechanger, because suddenly the sitting President is the biggest fraudster and crook since Nixon, or he truly is ineligible. Either way his integrity and honesty is shot to hell, even to his most feverent Kool-Aid drinkers, because it couldn’t be more obivous to them without a headsmack with a shovel.

    That and obtaining loans under false pretenses is bank fraud, which is a felony.

  70. just focused

    Gov. Johnson should set the standard by releasing both his school records and tax returns.

  71. just focused

    @71 Let not your reams of Communist rhetoric distract from the demand of every loyal American to see Obama’s secret files!

  72. Joe Buchman Post author

    Langa @ 11 — Thanks for the correction. You’re right; I’d not thought about that part of their platform.

    Just heard Wayne on the radio an hour or so ago. The Rusty Humphries show. Talked about the advice he had given his friends in the Romney campaign, about his friend who is also friends with Donald Trump, about how Romney can maximize the impact of Wayne’s advice.

    No mention of Gary Johnson; and no mention of Libertarianism or the LP. Credited as a former presidential candidate at the opening of the show (and with the wrong URL for his RootforAmerica website (which Wayne quickly corrected)), and as a former vice-presidential candidate at the show close. If I heard correctly he will be on Geraldo tomorrow.

    I wonder if Stossel would have Wayne on? Probably too great a risk for Wayne as Stossel might ask him about Gary Johnson . . .

    His advice to Donald Trump, BTW — offer $1 million dollars to someone at Columbia to break the law and reveal Obama’s records.

    I suppose Wayne must be wishing he could have been the LP Presidential nominee and saying these things.

    After endorsing Romney over and over and over again, it’s hard to see how he could run against Romney in 2016 if he’s elected.

    So I think Wayne must be secretly hoping the President wins reelection. It’s his only hope.

    🙂

    joe

  73. Joe Buchman Post author

    5:15 in on the above video:

    HANNITY: Former Libertarian Vice-Presidential Candidate. . . . Are you voting for Romney?

    ROOT: Listen, I’m a Libertarian which means I’m a Gary Johnson guy. But I believe in anything but Obama.

    HANNITY: That’s a half a vote for Obama. HALF A VOTE FOR Obama.

    ROOT: Sean. I’m a capitalist evangelist and a small business man . . .

    HANNITY: And that’s a half a vote for Obama!

    ROOT: I can testify that Obama has wrecked this economy.

    HANNITY: I appreciate you being with us.

  74. Joe Buchman Post author

    I’m soooooo confused. Why did McCain suspend his campaign again?

    Was that AFTER Obama got elected? . . . .

    So WOW, now he’s a time traveler who wrecked the economy BEFORE he got elected . . .

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjkCrfylq-E

    Sorry Wayne, one mention of Gary doesn’t make up for the Damnable Republican Promotion.

  75. Joe Buchman Post author

    WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 24, 2008 · 75 COMMENTS
    John McCain has put his campaign on hold for the good of the country and has asked Barack Obama to do the same.
    Republican John McCain said Wednesday he is directing his staff to work with Democrat Barack Obama’s campaign and the presidential debate commission to delay Friday’s debate because of the economic crisis.
    In a statement, McCain said he will stop campaigning after addressing former President Clinton’s Global Initiative session on Thursday and return to Washington to focus on the nation’s financial problems.
    McCain said he wants President Bush to convene a leadership meeting in Washington that would include him and Obama. “It has become clear that no consensus has developed to support the administration’s proposal,” McCain said. “I do not believe that the plan on the table will pass as it currently stands, and we are running out of time.”
    24 September 2008

    http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/mccain_suspends_campaign_to_work_on_the_economy/

    “McCain said if Congress does not pass legislation to address the crisis, credit will dry up, people will no longer be able to buy homes, life savings will be at stake and businesses will not have enough money. “If we do not act, every corner of our country will be impacted,” McCain said. “We cannot allow this to happen.”

  76. Thomas L. Knapp

    FDS @75,

    “Sure it would be a gamechanger, because suddenly the sitting President is the biggest fraudster and crook since Nixon, or he truly is ineligible”

    I think you’re over-estimating the current sensitivity of the American electorate to scandal (they’ve become quite de-sensitized since Watergate), and under-estimating the fraud and criminality of regimes falling between Nixon’s and Obama’s.

    As for the final claim, there is no reasonable doubt whatsoever as to Obama’s eligibility. Every iota of available credible evidence — and the matter has been investigated with respect to Obama a full order of magnitude more intensively than with any other president in American history — indicates that he is a natural-born citizen and in all other respects constitutionally eligible to the office.

  77. Michael H. Wilson

    So far only reported as a 4.4. We will have to wait and see. I have read no reports yet of damage.

  78. Jill Pyeatt

    Yorba Linda is where Nixon is buried. One of my friends said that he must have turned over in his grave! It was not a big quake, but, of course, we always wonder if it’s a precursor to a bigger one.

  79. Jill Pyeatt

    Thane, I just posted John Jay’s press release. Thanks for the link–I’ll add it in a comment.

  80. Michael H. Wilson

    There have been a number of the coast of Oregon recently and some expect a big one, 8 to 9, in the next 50 years. So stand by.

  81. paulie

    your reams of Communist rhetoric

    Communists and bigots such as yourself have a lot in common.

    Both treat individuals, not as individuals, but as faceless and interchangeable components of collectives.

    I am an individualist; I believe each individual is unique, and that none are guilty of collective crimes in which they had no personal part.

    Communists asign guilt to an economic class.

    You, it seems, asign guilt to an ethnic class or several.

    If you have any alternative explanation of what you meant by describing a Jewish woman who supports Palestinian rights as a “zionist professor” when the topic of Israel/Palestine had not been broached by anyone, please provide it, or continue to be exposed as…

    just a bigot….

    and a collectivist….

    just like a commie!

  82. paulie

    distract from the demand of every loyal American

    Having been subjected to actual Soviet propaganda, I have to say you sound a lot like them…all the way down to your overblown bloviating about Zionists and your collectivist notions of nation-state loyalty. Substitute a couple of words and I could be….

    …just back in the USSR.

  83. Dan

    @24

    The only reason Root is in the LP is because they are a useful platform for him to peddle his wacky crap. I’d call the LP the party of useful idiots, but I respect too many of members of the LP to be that blunt. The big loser here is Gary Johnson…who was a great governor and could have been a great candidate for President had he not become one of the useful idiots.

  84. paulie

    Paul, or paulie. The i and the e are a package deal.

    I think just focused may be playing a role.

    Maybe, but if so, it’s just stupid.

    And if not …it’s just bullshit.

    Or is that the other way around? LOL

    I don’t rule out the CIA connection.

    Sounds plausibl…y deniable 🙂

  85. Q

    “If the candidates were somehow disqualified and replaced by, say, Biden and Republican X (where x =/= Ron Paul), would we be any closer to solving this country’s problems? Somehow I think we would not.”

    Is there anyone here who disagrees?

    If so. why?

  86. Rev fatsax

    Paulie @71
    I hardly think a democrat, the harbingers of the minorities, would ever fake the status of their heritage or nationality to gain access to the upper echelon of american higher education. Can you name just one? (ok, elizabeth squaw warren…but she didnt do that on her own). Hmmm, maybe it is true?

  87. Q

    Who knows, but more importantly, why does anyone care?

    What if Biden runs instead of Obama….or Hillary Clinton…or Andrew Cuomo…or anyone with a chance in hell of being the one to replace Obama.

    What will we gain?

  88. bruuno

    #55 Red- The only thing I am “shilling for” is basic common sense.
    1) As pointed out the idea that he lost his citizenship while a child in Indonesia is just dumb considering his mother didn’t renounce hers and I am not even sure she could do so on behalf of her underage child even if for some bizarre reason she wanted to. Therefore the whole ‘change it back’ claim is only laughably stupid, and yes Root is throwing it out there
    2) It is easier to get financial aid as a US citizen
    3) “Exchange student”? Tell me, what Indonesian school was he enrolled in as a college student to get in on their exchange program? Yeah, this makes the ‘forgot to change his citizenship back’ claim look intelligent in comparison.
    See Red, what I just threw out there was basic common sense. Instead of jumping down rabbit holes which are the creation of blind hatred of a political opponent and crass attempts to garner the support (both political and financial) of crazies (which I suspect Root is doing) I suggest concentrating on real issues.
    Once again the only thing remotely connected to ‘evidence’ of any of this is that Root claims to not remember him at Columbia. Absolutely pathetic.
    And by the way the not so subtle pandering to racist assumptions about affirmative action and Obama are simply disgraceful.

  89. just boorat

    @104 — 1)As pointed out, there are extant State Department documents where in fact Stanley Ann Dunham renounced the citizenship of her son. You should stop repeating your false claim in this matter as it is now little more than lying.

    2) Not from Indonesia

    3) I would also suggest you lay off the Communist-style racist-baiting. Combined with your lies, it doesn’t paint a pretty picture of your agenda.

  90. Thomas L. Knapp

    @107,

    “As pointed out, there are extant State Department documents where in fact Stanley Ann Dunham renounced the citizenship of her son.”

    I’d be interested in seeing those documents, but even if they exist they are irrelevant, since they would be of no legal effect. A minor who is a US citizen cannot have his citizenship renounced either by himself or “for” him. He remains a US citizen until such time as he renounces said citizenship himself as an adult.

  91. bruuno

    #106- I too would love to see this supposed evidence. Also what is with the repeated use of the phrase “Communist style race baiting”? The use of that phrase says a lot more about you than anything else.

  92. paulie

    That’s RACIST baiting.

    This just bigoted person just doesn’t like having his or her bigotry pointed out, you see, so pointing it out is “communist style,” even though both communism and racism are types of collectivism as opposed to individualism.

  93. RedPhillips

    bruuno, as I said, the question of whether he could have lost his citizenship has come up in “birther” circles (esp. in relation to whether he was every technically adopted by his step dad). It is really a technical legal question so any emotion attached to it is unwarranted. I haven’t looked into the issue all that closely, but I suspect TK, who speaks as if he knows, is correct.

    That said, whether or not *if* he at one point was an Indonesian citizen that taints his natural born citizen status is a different question. Before TK goes ape, consider an analogy. Let’s say someone had American citizenship at birth but later availed himself of the benefits of some other citizenship. (Say he was born in the US to an American mother and foreign father and quickly moved to his father’s country after birth.) Could he later come back to America and reassert his American citizenship and run for President? This is not a slam dunk question from an original intent standpoint particularly considering that the Founder Fathers were attempting to guard against potential dual loyalty.

    Anyway, I think Root just picked the wrong word when he said “exchange student” which has a certain meaning as you point out. (I think you know you’re quibbling to avoid the main argument.) What I suspect Root meant was something like claimed foreign student status or foreign origin. If at any place on his application he claims to be Indonesian or Kenyan it’s GAME OVER regardless of technicalities.

  94. RedPhillips

    George, Charles Johnson is a prototypical conspiracy and taint phobic “Ewww … I’m not one of those grubby conservatives” hysterics. Linking to him does not help your case. It furthers the case that people like Johnson and the Reason crowd are a bunch of prisses who are afraid of getting their skirts dirty.

  95. RedPhillips

    BTW George, that you identify Little Green Footballs as right-wing either says a lot about your sensibilities or that you are not familiar with the current direction of LGF.

    LGF and Johnson were very much pro-war after 9/11 and as such associated with pro-war “conservatives,” but at some point LGF morphed into a site where Johnson primarily bashes conservatives. Just look at the posts there. Johnson seems to feel he needs to pay penance for his momentary dalliance with “conservatives.” I think Johnson is emotionally disturbed.

  96. bruuno

    Look Red, clearly you are going to believe whatever you want to believe. I am hardly ‘quibbling’ to avoid the subject at hand. I am merely pointing out that Root either doesn’t know what the hell he is talking about or is merely pandering to the ignorant and those prone to believe whatever accusation anyone throws out at Obama. That there isn’t a shred of evidence that Obama was ever an Indonesian citizen or renounced his American citizenship or that he didn’t attend Columbia or that he was a terrible student (we do know he was Magna Cum Laude at Harvard Law which says something) and yet you and others continue to push this stuff is sad but it is also clear that nothing, no level of evidence, will ever get you folks to drop these whacko conspiracies. Even if Obama turned over everything you are asking for (and aren’t asking of anyone else and never have) you would find some new document to demand on some theory that it must say something incriminating.
    Good luck with that.

  97. just American

    @108 — I’d be interested in seeing those documents

    Just search on ‘ Stanley Ann Dunham FOIA passport’.

    , but even if they exist they are irrelevant, since they would be of no legal effect

    Right because the voices in your head are the controlling legal authority, not the actual policy, practice, and documents of the State Department.

    That’s RACIST baiting.

    Correct. When Communists are losing a debate, or just don’t want to discuss something — such as the pressing need to remove a foreign Communist usurper — they engage in false accusations of racism to change the subject. Basic Communist tactic.

    @110 — there isn’t a shred of evidence that Obama was ever an Indonesian citizen or renounced his American citizenship

    There are Barry’s school records from Indonesia, and his mother’s passport records. That you persist in repeating this falsehood after having been corrected so many times can only mean that you are intentionally lying. Your lying to forward an agenda of foreign Communist usurpation is shameful and anti-American.

  98. Bob

    It is a settled point of law that parents cannot revoke their children’s citizenship: Perkins v. Elg, U.S. Supreme Court, 1937. The bloviators on this site could have discovered this in less than a minute of googling.

    Any additional citizenships a person may hold or be eligible for are irrelevant to eligibility to be president. Thomas Jefferson freely accepted French citizenship. This was widely known at the time. This fact requires more than a minute of googling; it’s more like two minutes.

    Perhaps the bloviators could do some research to find if Oxy or Columbia give preferential admissions to foreigners, instead of talking out their hinders.

    I knew lots of foreign students in college. None of them had it easy. Scholarships for foreign students are few, and competition for them is fierce. Do you think any organization giving scholarships to foreign students would do so without checking a person’s school records? Or did they think that Hawaii was a foreign country?

    INS keeps close tabs on foreign students. Any goofing off in school, any poor grades will get your student visa revoked, and there is no appeal. So Root is actually self-refuting.

    Every right-wing bigot “knows” that foreigners get preferential treatment in college admissions, and that they get money galore from the U.S. They know it, even though it’s not true. Bigots don’t need facts, just “gut instincts” like Root. These are the folks that Root is courting.

    Root is an embarrassment to the LP and a disgrace.

  99. Mark Hilgenberg

    @ Just

    “There are Barry’s school records from Indonesia, and his mother’s passport records. That you persist in repeating this falsehood after having been corrected so many times can only mean that you are intentionally lying.”

    Assuming you are correct, I don’t care. Heck the GOP was ready to charge the law so Arnie could run, now they are freaked about where Obama spent a couple years.

    I don’t worry that he will help Kenya or Indonesia overthrow America.

  100. Mark Hilgenberg

    @ Bob 116

    “Every right-wing bigot “knows” that foreigners get preferential treatment in college admissions, and that they get money galore from the U.S. They know it, even though it’s not true. Bigots don’t need facts, just “gut instincts” like Root. These are the folks that Root is courting.

    Root is an embarrassment to the LP and a disgrace.”

    Amen!

  101. Ad Hoc Ergito Propter Hoc

    Just insane…

    At this point, you are cooked.

    You can keep saying “communist” and “false accusations” until you’re purple in the face…

    But you haven’t explained why you called Stein a “zionist” out of the blue when nobody was discussing that subject.

    If and when you ever explain that you can claim the accusations of bigotry are false…not before.

  102. Ad Hoc Ergito Propter Hoc

    Bob,

    No point in trying to reason with birther nutjobs.

    They “know” what they “know” regardless of logic and facts.

    If you show them their error, that just makes you a “dupe” or “agent” of the “conspiracy” in their diseased minds.

  103. Thomas L. Knapp

    Red @111,

    “If at any place on his application he claims to be Indonesian or Kenyan it’s GAME OVER regardless of technicalities.”

    Once again, I disagree.

    If Obama gets caught tomorrow morning in bed with a dead girl, a live boy, a goat, a kilo of cocaine, a wadded up Kenyan birth certificate hidden under the mattress, Jimmy Hoffa’s wedding ring, a personally annotated copy of the Quran, and a bundle of $20 bills traceable to the DB Cooper hijacking, it will move the polls less than five points.

  104. paulie

    If Obama gets caught tomorrow morning in bed with a dead girl, a live boy, a goat, a kilo of cocaine, a wadded up Kenyan birth certificate hidden under the mattress, Jimmy Hoffa’s wedding ring, a personally annotated copy of the Quran, and a bundle of $20 bills traceable to the DB Cooper hijacking, it will move the polls less than five points.

    Jeez, I’ve been to some crazy parties, but even I have never been to anything that off the wall 😛

  105. Bob

    If Root weren’t a bullshitter, he’d see if Columbia has any record of his own citizenship, or how he paid his tuition. Otherwise, this isn’t merely BS, it’s pointless BS, and shameless pandering to bigots.

  106. paulie

    Not pointless.

    It is increasing his name recognition, which means money in the bank down the line.

    What other point did you expect?

  107. RedPhillips

    “Any additional citizenships a person may hold or be eligible for are irrelevant to eligibility to be president.”

    Bob, I have looked into the original intent of “natural born citizen” somewhat and you simply can’t make that kind of a statement. The issue is very murky.

  108. RedPhillips

    “Look Red, clearly you are going to believe whatever you want to believe.”

    I haven’t said what I believe or don’t believe regarding Obama. Ask anyone here. I have never made any definitive statements about Obama other than I’m pretty sure he didn’t write his two books. I think it is possible he is hiding something which is why he is suppressing so many documents.

    What I believe is that it is an entirely natural human reaction for people to wonder if he is concealing anything, and to want to see the documents he hasn’t released. To not want to see them requires the deliberate suppression of this natural curiosity. The press did not do its job looking into this guy’s background and they were abetted in their dereliction by deliberately incurious conspiracy phobes.

    I believe anti-conspiracy hysteria is more dangerous to the workings of a democracy than is default conspiracy theorizing, which will always be the habit of a few. Anti-conspiracy hysteria empowers the Powers that Be. If you don’t see that, you’re blind. Libertarians who don’t realize that are doing their cause no good.

    I also believe the press should not be a mouth piece for the conventional wisdom, but should actually, you know, investigate.

    Root is expressing a very natural sentiment. (As I said before, I wouldn’t have been as specific with my allegations.) If a guy acts suspiciously, he shouldn’t complain when people view him with suspicion.

  109. Bob

    @125

    Red, It’s not “murky” at all. Thomas Jefferson held French citizenship. This was well known, and commented on by such persons as Thomas Paine and Nathan Dane, “Father of American Jurisprudence. Dane, who represented Massachusetts in the Continental Congress comments on it in his “General Abridgment and Digest of American Law”. The entire work is on Google Books. I can look up the page number for you, but you should do it yourself.

    By the way, this means that during the Quasi-War between the U.S. and France, the U.S. Vice-President was a citizen of a nation at war with the U.S.! How lucky we were that Jefferson didn’t stab John Adams in the back and surrender to those damned surrender monkeys!

    So I cite Thomas Jefferson as precedent for President. There are many other U.S. Presidents who were, or were eligible to be recognized as, foreign citizens.

  110. Bob

    Red, perhaps you could cite some case law or statute law that makes the matter “murky”.

  111. Root's Teeth Are Awesome

    Bigots don’t need facts, just “gut instincts” like Root.

    Root is insanely jealous of his vastly more successful classmate, Obama. That much is obvious.

    Of course, libertarians must not criticize Root’s jealousy-based rants, or else Root’s defenders will accuse them of being jealous of Root.

  112. just American

    @ Mark Hilgenberg — re I don’t care

    Okay, so you don’t care about the Constitution and hate America. Your opinion will be given due weight; and the rest of your comments on this thread can be understood in that context.

    Hopefully you are not voting in American elections!

  113. RedPhillips

    Bob, I hate to inform you, but your pronouncements, no matter how definitive you may think they are, do not settle the matter. To say that the ORIGINAL INTENT of “natural born citizen” is not murky is to show you haven’t seriously looked into the issue. I’m not primarily talking about case law since the ratification of the Constitution. I’m talking about Original Intent. The main reason it’s murky is because the Founders didn’t really have much to say about it.

    I don’t deny that Obama couldn’t have “lost” his US citizenship. Like I said, that is a matter of technical law and until I have some legal expert offering a different interpretation then I am fine with that. (This whole debate has been hampered by the lack of experts piping in. On one side you have agenda driven birthers and on the other side you have hysterics who don’t address such technical matters because they are too busy feigning outrage that anyone dared question the chosen one. This is why we are supposed to have a neutral press to hash this stuff out, but in this case the neutral press has joined the hysteric chorus. If you think that is a healthy dynamic then I question your judgement.) What I’m saying is that his “natural born citizen” status (as originally intended) can certainly be disputed on the basis of his alleged father not being a US citizen, and it could also be disputed on the basis of ambiguous citizenship as a child, although the case for the former is better than the latter.

    Some of the citations you requested below.

  114. RedPhillips

    “The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first.” Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162(1875)

    Venus quotes Vattel. “The natives or indigenes are those born in the country of parents who are citizens.” Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253 253 (1814)

    I am not a lawyer so if the form of my citations are wrong, please overlook it.

    Note that the first quote confirms my contention that the question is “murky” despite Bob’s foot stomping otherwise.

  115. wolfefan

    Hi Red –

    Check out Wong Kim Ark, decided 23 years after Minor V. Happersett. There may have been doubts in the author of the Minor decision in 1875, but WKA settled them.

    Likewise, The Venus is a case from 1805. It’s definitions of citizenship don’t matter any more, as they were overruled by later cases. The issue may have been murky at one time but it’s pretty well settled now. A number of courts have decided Obama’s case on the merits – not just on standing issues or other minutia – and all of them have found that he is a natural born citizen.

  116. RedPhillips

    Wolffan, you are not paying attention. I specifically said I am making a case re. ORIGINAL INTENT not case law. As such, the older cases are more dispositive, not less.

    “Likewise, The Venus is a case from 1805. It’s definitions of citizenship don’t matter any more, as they were overruled by later cases. The issue may have been murky at one time but it’s pretty well settled now.”

    Again, re. original intent, Venus is MORE germane, not less, because it is more contemporaneous.

  117. Ad Hoc Ergito Proper Hoc

    Just Ridiculous:

    Why do you keep clubbing baby seals..AND your wife?

    Your opinion will be given due weight; and the rest of your comments on this thread can be understood in the context of your “Zionist professor” remark which you still can’t justify.

    Now, scram, you are stinking up the place!

  118. Ad Hoc Ergito Proper Hoc

    Why are we worried about the original intent of the natural born citizen clause? If anything, it should be repealed, although the effort needed to repeal it is energy better spent on other things.

    Relying on existing case law seems like a very reasonable compromise.

  119. Mark Hilgenberg

    @ Just a cultist 132
    “Okay, so you don’t care about the Constitution and hate America. Your opinion will be given due weight; and the rest of your comments on this thread can be understood in that context.

    Hopefully you are not voting in American elections!”

    I care about rights of the individual, not some cryptic words written 200+ years ago by people who put in this same document that blacks are not fully people. Sorry if I don’t take the birth clause to seriously.

    Yes, I vote in every election, primaries, local, special and general. I send out “how I vote guides” to friends and family so many more people vote exactly how I do. 🙂

  120. RedPhillips

    “Why are we worried about the original intent”

    Because that’s what conservatives do, “worry” about original intent. That’s kinda what makes them conservatives.

  121. just American

    @139 — You obviously don’t care about the right of the individual not to be oppressed by a foreign Communist despot.

    @138 –Thanks for revealing your agenda of anti-American bigotry.

  122. paulie

    Because that’s what conservatives do, “worry” about original intent. That’s kinda what makes them conservatives.

    That would be more important in a case where the passage in question wasn’t just some vestigial appendix that serves no useful purpose but is not worth the considerable trouble to remove, and where existing case law is adequate to where we don’t have to go to the considerable effort of removing the unnecessary restriction whose original intent is by your admission murky.

  123. paulie

    You obviously don’t care about the right of the individual not to be oppressed by a foreign Communist despot.

    Being a national/ethnic collectivist, you seem to lack the understanding that not all those who are born in other countries (even communist countries) are communist despots. If anything, the opposite is often true, that those born in other nations have more appreciation for liberty than those born in the US.

    Those of us who witnessed communist and fascist tyranny first hand (and thus have more reason to never want to see anything like it again) have in this regard an advantage over those who have only read about it.

    In other words you are…

    …just wrong.

  124. Joe Buchman

    “. . . the black kids were all at like tables going “Black Power!” We used to walk by and go, “What the hell are they talking about?” And they didn’t associate with us and we didn’t associate with them.

    So if you track down a couple of black students, they’ll probably know him.

    But nobody white’s ever heard of this guy.

    It’s quite amazing.

    Nobody remembers him.

    They don’t remember him sitting in class.

    …Does anyone doubt that possibly Barack could have gotten into Harvard with a C average because he’s black, where as I, white, couldn’t get into the same school with a B-plus, A-minus average? And yet his wife says that America is a terrible nation unfair to minorities!

    I say, Au contraire!

    I say the whole problem with America is we are racist against people because of the color of their skin.

    We’re helping people because they’re black.

    We’re helping people because they’re minority.

    We’re helping people because they’re poor.

    In reality only those who have the most skill and talent should get into Harvard, not because of the color of their skin.”

    Wayne Allyn Root, Libertarian Party Branding Guru, September 5th, 2008 as reported by Reason Magazine here:

    http://reason.com/archives/2008/09/05/wayne-allyn-roots-million-doll

  125. Joe Buchman

    “I’m out there fighting for, and rasing money for, and speaking on behalf of Libertarian candidates all across the United States.”

    Wayne Allyn Root, July 2011.

    Really?

    NAME MORE THAN FIVE.

    HELL, NAME ONE.

    I’m sorry. Somewhere I got confused. What’s Obama being dishonest about again?

    http://youtu.be/ApbtOZGctRg

  126. Nick Kruse

    It is unfortunate that this article already has 149 comments. There are more important things about third parties that are currently happening. Quit worrying about another article that Root wrote.

  127. Bob

    @133 Red,

    Bless your heart, but I thought this thread was about Root’s article, which implicity claims that Obama lost his citizenship when he lived in Indonesia. As I showed this is impossible. (BTW, I haven’t made any “pronouncements”, I’ve been quoting case law and history.) Don’t you think that Wayne Root should have checked his facts before posting an article? Shouldn’t he have checked with Columbia to find out if they have ever had preferential admissions for foreign students (NOT “foreign exchange students”!) Or ever charged reduced tuition? Or kept track of the source of funds in tuition payments? Or their student scholastic records note a student’s citizenship? He IS a Columbia grad, after all! (Or so he claims.) {;>) (I wouldn’t be surprised if Columbia kept a list of foreign students for INS reporting purposes; as I said, the INS keeps close tabs on foreign students.)

    Perkins v. Elg isn’t “technical law”, it’s a Supreme Court decision. The FDR administration lost the case, and Ms. Elg won. She kept her citizenship, regardless of her parents.

    You’re always free to try to get SCOTUS to reconsider P. v. E. The first step would be to file a FOIA request to see if Obama’s mother filed a renunciation of citizenship at the U.S. Embassy in Jakarta. If she did, you can then argue that Perkins v. Elg was incorrectly decided, and that her renunciation applied also to young Obama.

    This will be very difficult to do: Courts of Common Law, as we have here in the U.S., only hear actual cases and controversies, and will throw out any lawsuit that merely intends to change established case law.

    Your best bet would be to find a Sec. of State somewhere who’s willing to commit political suicide, and rule Obama off the ballot in his state, again assuming your FOIA request hits gold and finds that his mother renounced her citizenship.

    Good luck on that one. This post is getting rather long, so I’ll address you second point later.

  128. Roger Roots

    I am not a birther in the purest sense but I have followed the birther controversy and I believe Wayne is merely scratching the surface of this thing. Have you guys seen the film “Dreams of My Real Father”? Have you followed findings of Sheriff Arpaio?

    These sources must be taken with a grain of salt, but on the whole they provide a convincing case supporting the proposition that Obama’s grandfather was CIA and that Obama’s paper trail is riddled with forgeries.

  129. Bob

    @133 Red, bless your heart again, but it seems you forgot to include SCOTUS’ disclaimer in Minor v. Happersett that it wasn’t ruling on citizenship. It also would have helped to include the context of your quote of this bit of dicta.

    M. v. H. wasn’t a citizenship case; it was a voting rights case, and Ms. Minor’s citizenship was not at question.

    Briefly, this was her argument:
    1. I am a citizen of the U.S. as understood by the 14th Amendment (born in the U.S., and subject to the jurisdiction thereof).
    2. Voting rights are covered by the Privileges and Immunities clause of the 14th Amendment.
    3. Therefore, I, and women in general, have the right to vote under the 14th Amendment.

    SCOTUS rejected her argument. The decision, in summary, is:
    1. Yes, Virginia Minor is a citizen under the 14th Amendment. However, the 14th Amendment was not necessary to make women citizens; there were women citizens before it was passed.
    2. A long piece of dicta discussing citizenship. More on that later.
    3. While Virginia Minor was a citizen under the 14th Amendment, the right to vote is not covered by the Privileges and Immunities Clause. There have always been restrictions on the right to vote, and there is no right to vote under the Constitution.
    4. Therefore, the State of Missouri, and states in general, have no obligation under the Constitution to allow women to vote.

    The dicta about citizenship, amounting to almost 1/3 of the decision, states that it was absolutely beyond doubt that even before the 14th Amendment, any person born in the U.S. to two citizen parents was a U.S. citizen. They then note that “doubts had been expressed” (n.b. that they never said that they had any doubt, and never named anyone expressing those doubts) regarding persons born in the U.S., but without citizen parents, but that for the purpose of M. v. H. it was not necessary to address these doubts.

    Note that the legal reasoning behind the decision makes just as much sense with the citizenship discussion omitted. AFAIK, no Justice ever addressed the reason for this discussion. I have my own bit of historically-informed speculation as to why it’s there, but this is getting long again. I’d be happy to personally share it with you, if you like. (Hint: See Lynch v. Clark, NY 1844)

    You also forgot to include the full Vattel quote in the Venus case, and the context. It’s not about citizenship, but about the Rules of War regarding captures applies to a person who is a citizen of one belligerent, but domiciled in the other belligerent state. That’s what’s covered in the Law of Nations. Vattel was one of many legal theorists who authored tomes by that title.

    If you don’t like standing U.S. law regarding citizenship, you are again free to try to change it. One way would be by constitutional amendment. Another way would be the strategy of getting it into the courts by finding a politically suicidal Sec. of State somewhere.

  130. Bob

    @152 Roger, I’m sure that Democrats would pay you to argue that Obama’s biological father wasn’t really Obama, Sr. It’s a sure-fire winner.

  131. RedPhillips

    Bob, I have said nothing about how I hope to address this. I am making an intellectual argument that what should be important here is the ORIGINAL INTENT of the Founders when they wrote “natural born citizen.” What I have argued elsewhere is that conservatives need to get their act together on the issue so they can present a unified rhetorical front. As it stands now you have some birther conservatives arguing one understanding of NBC and other conservatives (stupidly) arguing for Rubio or Jindal for Veep, both of whom would fail the test of the former interpretation.

    I have long argued that this isn’t going to be settled in the courts primarily because you aren’t going to find a judge with big enough gonads to touch that hot potato. That is why I am always bellyaching for our supposedly neutral and inquisitive press to do their damn job and investigate. If, for example, several major news sources pronounced Obama’s BC a fake, it would be game over from a political standpoint without needing the courts to act.

  132. RedPhillips

    Bob, first of all, I can do without your patronizing. It is likely the medical school I went to was as competitive as the law school you went to. Re. your second diatribe, again, I am not arguing case law. The question of what the Founders intended by natural born citizen is a HISTORICAL question much more than a legal one. You are obviously a lawyer. That is why you can not think straight on this issue. Only in legal la la land does what some judge said 10 minutes ago tell us more than what the Founders themselves said when they wrote the thing. If a historian wants to learn about the Roman Empire, does he read a modern textbook or does he read Livy and Tacitus? But you ask a lawyer what the Constitution means on some issue and he goes digging for the most recent SCOTUS decision.

    The point is not what M v. H was addressing. The point is that the Justices specifically addressed the historical meaning of natural born citizen which is what I’m addressing.

    That said, I think you are playing a little loose with the language. (A lawyer playing word games! I’m shocked!) “Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first.” This language suggests that “Some authorities” are the outliers. If not, would they not have written “some authorities” limit the meaning to two citizen parents.

    BTW Bob, do you comment here often or were you just attracted to this Root thread? You have the feel of one of those professional birther debunkers/Obama apologists.

  133. RedPhillips

    “@152 Roger, I’m sure that Democrats would pay you to argue that Obama’s biological father wasn’t really Obama, Sr. It’s a sure-fire winner.”

    Thanks for proving that you have no interest in the truth. You are only interested in playing political games. As I said above, I have made no definitive allegations about Obama (other than I don’t think he wrote his two books). However, I do think it is possible that BO Sr. was not his real father. We know that his mother and BO Sr’s marriage was a sham. The Maraniss book confirms this and this is contrary to what BO Jr “wrote” in his memoir. But you don’t care about getting to the truth. All you care about is playing political games.

  134. just shocked at paulie's anti-American bigotry

    serves no useful purpose

    Sure it does. The purpose is to ensure that no one with foreign attachments or loyalties controls the American government.

    The idea that Americans aren’t good enough to be governed by themselves — that they need a President who isn’t just American, but is an Indonesian Muslim, or British Communist, or Panamanian strongman — is straight up anti-American bigotry.

    not all those who are born in other countries (even communist countries) are communist despots.

    Anyone seeking to usurp the Presidency is in fact a despot.

    If anything, the opposite is often true, that those born in other nations have more appreciation for liberty than those born in the US.

    This thread would disprove that notion, as you have indicated you are a natural-born foreign Communist — and here you are agitating for the foreign Communist Obama to illegally usurp the Presidency. You have proved by your own actions you do not appreciate the fundamental human right of Americans to not be oppressed by a foreign despot.

  135. just American

    @151 Bob —

    Obama lost his citizenship when he lived in Indonesia. As I showed this is impossible.

    You haven’t showed anything, you have only lied. This statement is a lie. We have the State Department documents showing that Barry Soetoror aka Soebarkahlost his American citizenship as a child in the late 1960s. You should stop repeating this vicious anti-American lie. The more you repeat it, the more you are revealed as a disinformation agent agitator for foreign despotism over America.

  136. just American

    @149 — that is just ridiculous. Exposing how the two-party duopoly has delivered America into foreign despotism is a key role for all third parties.

    If you accept the duopoly’s foreign dictatorship, you’re not a part of any real opposition at all.

  137. Paulie

    Just repetitive and boring,

    Yep, you’re right, I’m a despot. That’s why you are still posting your drivel here…even though it’s

    just inane

  138. George Phillies

    @160 Check the reverse side of the state department documents for your personal copy of the secret flying saucer design plans, and winning numbers for the next five lotteries.

  139. RedPhillips

    George, just American is overstating what they say (which is not helpful), but he is referencing a real thing.

    http://www.wnd.com/2010/08/187813/

    “Documents released by the State Department in two separate Freedom of Information Act requests bolster evidence Barack Obama became a citizen of Indonesia when he moved to the Southeast Asian nation with his mother and stepfather in the late 1960s.

    In a passport amendment submitted Aug. 13, 1968, Obama’s mother, Stanley Ann Dunham, identified her son with an Indonesian surname and asked the State Department to drop him from her U.S. passport.”

    You seem to think that snarking for the elite concensus somehow serves your political ends. You really need to read my post # 126.

  140. RedPhillips

    “Which part of “a parent cannot legally renounce a minor child’s American citizenship” do you not understand?”

    Tom, I have already concede that. I’ve never said otherwise, not in this thread or any other. I am very careful not to make definitive statements if I don’t know something definitively. See my #69 and #111. There are other issues here. Did he attend college *as* a foreign national as Root is speculating whether he was one or not. If anywhere in his college records he self-identified as a foreign national it is game over whether he ever lost his US citizenship or not. I know you don’t believe that, but I do.

  141. From Der Sidelines

    @167:

    Just to clarify, the game over would be that he committed felony bank fraud for his financial aid loans.

    If Obama had any courage and integrity he’d simply release the stuff and lay his past open for all to see.

  142. Deran

    @168. It wouldn’t matter to person such as yourself what papers from whoever Obama released. You don’t like the guy, I don’t either, but I’m not obsessed with absurd details that have no relation to his presidency.

    It’s the same as the hoopla abt Bush 43 and his alledged draft evasion, his membership in the “Skuyll and Bones CVlub”. None of that had anything to do with the illegal invasion of Iraq, the post-Sept 11 security state, his tax give aways to the 1%. Those are the things that mattered abt George W Bush. All this Columbia U/Birther stuff abt Obama has nothing to do with his lap dogging for Wall Street, HIS expansion of the post-Sept 11 security state, his use of drones to assassinate US citizens. And those are the things abt Obama’s presidency that seem important to me abt Obama.

  143. Michael H. Wilson

    A lot of the crap with Obama is because of the color of his skin. It is just one way to get at him. And for the record I firmly believe that his record stinks so far. As a president he is terrible.

  144. langa

    Deran @169 is exactly right.

    If you found out that, say, Charles Manson had been born in some other country, or had been born to different parents than what is commonly believed, would that change your opinion of him, one way or the other? Would it make him any more or less deserving of being in jail? Would it change any of the terrible things that he has done? Of course not.

    Now, substitute “Barack Obama” for “Charles Manson” in the preceding paragraph, and ask yourself if the answer is any different. That should tell you all you need to know about the subject.

  145. NewFederalist

    And… as further “proof” to all this nonsense… IF there had been ANY credible way to actually prove anything against Obama I think we can all be assured that Hillary Clinton would have found it and used it in the 2008 primaries. The Clintons would have gone to ANY lengths to win. Now let’s talk about Vince Foster!

  146. RedPhillips

    “Just to clarify, the game over would be that he committed felony bank fraud for his financial aid loans.”

    The game over would be the political problem. All the Obama apologists who assured us there was no there there, would be stammering “but umm err…” and the brithers would all be dancing around hollering “We told you so! We told you so! We told you so!”

    But of course we all known that political apologists always tell the truth so we have nothing to worry about. Just like there really wasn’t a stained blue dress.

  147. Joe Buchman Post author

    From my Vegas headlining performer friend in Vegas Kevin Burke — “ROFLMAO…He opens with his star on the LV walk of fame? ANYone can have one. They cost around $11k.”

  148. Bob

    @155-156 Red, I’m not a lawyer, thank you! (But many have told me I should have been one.)

    I am scientifically trained and have a certain talent for thinking logically. My niece warns against arguing with Uncle Bob: “He’ll beat you over the head with facts and logic until you run out into the night, screaming.”

    You’re always free to argue politically that nobody without two citizen parents should be President. Likewise for anyone eligible by ancestry to be recognized as a citizen of another country. (Not the same thing.) I doubt this would change many voters’ minds about voting for Obama, as this was well known in 2008. As for arguing that his biological father is other than Barack Obama, Sr., IMHO, the Dems would pay you to argue this, and the GOP would pay you not to.

    If you want to argue “two citizen parents” in a History Club, be prepared to answer why this wasn’t simply written into the Constitution, and explain the counterexamples of C.A. Arthur and 1st GOP candidate John C. Fremont. As for foreign citizenships, the counterexample of Thomas Jefferson.

  149. just saying

    “Skuyll and Bones CVlub”. None of that had anything to do with the illegal invasion of Iraq, the post-Sept 11 security state

    False. When you are a member of a Satanic cult who believe in a religious obligation to kill and torture people, your Presidential administration is more likely to kill and torture people.

    All this Columbia U/Birther stuff abt Obama has nothing to do with his lap dogging for Wall Street, HIS expansion of the post-Sept 11 security state, his use of drones to assassinate US citizens.

    False. When you are being blackmailed about your identity and nationality by anti-American death-fetishists, you will kill and torture Americans for them.

    Hope this helps.

  150. just literate

    you’re right, I’m a despot.

    I never posted any such thing, nor that you ran this site like a despot. I merely pointed out your geopolitical despot-enabling problem.

    I’m sure this crass mischaracterization is just an honest mistake. Perhaps your desopt-enabling is also an honest mistake arising from your relatively poor grasp of English.

  151. Paulie

    Readers can gauge for themselves how poor my grasp of English is. I’m sure it’s slipped somewhat since I had a perfect score on the English portion of the SAT exam a quarter century ago.

    Foreign attachments and loyalties aren’t necessarily a product of where someone happens to be born.

    Many people have an “attachment” to a nation where their ancestors come from, or based on their religion or political ideology, even though they were born in the US. Meanwhile, many immigrants have embraced the American ideal far more so than people born here, having chosen to be Americans.

    And yes, I am an American, so the idea that “Americans aren’t good enough to govern themselves” does not apply. Someone who came over to the US as a small child is somehow less American than someone who just happens to have been born in the US?

    It’s silly, and if anything, should be removed from the Constitution, although we have bigger problems to concentrate on.

    Your description of me as a communist is…

    …just wrong….

    Communism is the system I am a refugee from, and the system I am fighting to keep the US from adopting.

    You, on the other hand, are a collectivist, classifying people by what arbitrary lines they happen to have been born within rather than where they grew up or, more importantly, what they believe. You have far more in common with communist despots than I do, no matter where you were born.

  152. NewFederalist

    Paulie: “just whatever” is a total jerkoff. Don’t let him even begin to get under your skin. Just smile and say “that’s nice”. That is what I do in polite company instead of saying “Fuck You”!

  153. just American

    Readers can gauge for themselves how poor my grasp of English is.

    Sure, your illiteracy is quite evident here; unless it’s just something you were feigning in order to misdirect.

    Foreign attachments and loyalties aren’t necessarily a product of where someone happens to be born.

    Correct. It is also a result of who one is is born to, and where and how they are raised — which is why we have this important safeguard against foreign despotism barring such people from the Presidency.

    Your description of me as a communist is…

    … where? I’ve just pointed out that you are shilling for an agenda of foreign Communist domination. You could just as as easily be a useful idiot as a conscious Communist.

    Communism is the system I am a refugee from

    It is a shame that you seem to be at least subconsciously still attached to this dangerous foreign ideology. As a person, I hope you can evolve your consciousness beyond it, but as a loyal American I can do nothing but wish failure for the foreign Communist despotism you have been so desperately shilling for here.

  154. RedPhillips

    “@155-156 Red, I’m not a lawyer, thank you!”

    Sorry. But I still think you’re a plant. I did a little snooping and as far as I can tell you haven’t commented here before. You pop into a thread on birtherism, seemingly hyper informed on the subject. I mention M v H and you come back with a minor dissertation on M v H. Either you went and looked that up quickly or you already knew it because you are a veteran of the debate. It is well known that the Obama apologists dispatch people to argue down birtherism whenever it appears. I count it as a point of pride that I once attracted a very prominent anti-birther to my own website. I think you are one such person. No sin in that. Just want you to know I’m on to you.

    “As for arguing that his biological father is other than Barack Obama, Sr., IMHO, the Dems would pay you to argue this, and the GOP would pay you not to.”

    I want to know the truth. Don’t you? Honestly, if BO Sr. wasn’t his real father, in the grand scheme of things, that wouldn’t really be that big of a deal. He wouldn’t be the first person who had a nativity story fabricated for him that he was later stuck with. The significance would be that he ran with the lie in his memoir (that he probably didn’t write) and it would prove that there was some there there, despite all the anti-birther hysterics insisting that there isn’t any there there.

  155. Thomas L. Knapp

    Red @ 189,

    “I want to know the truth.”

    There’s a big difference between wanting to know the truth on one hand, and wanting the truth to be what you wish it was on the other.

    It’s not a matter of “hysterics.”

    In ~5-7 years of attempts to prove that Obama is not a natural-born American citizen, every available iota of credible/verifiable evidence has supported the claim that he is, and not so much as a crumb of credible/verifiable evidence has emerged to suggest that he isn’t.

    If you think that the US Senator from New York and former First Lady of the United States did not draw on the her money, power and connections and those of the former POTUS of the United States and the party machinery at their disposal to investigate her Democratic primary opponent, or that she wouldn’t have used what she found, if she found anything … well, if you think that, I admit that one of us is hysterical, and it ain’t me.

  156. George Phillies

    “I want to know the truth” No, for Modern American Conservatives, that’s “I refuse to listen to the truth”.

    That’s modern conservatives, not real Goldwater Conservatives. Goldwater, had he lived and been in good health, would have had the characters kicked out of the Republican Party.

  157. Jill Pyeatt

    Red–I know Bob well and am pleased to have him here on IPR. He is a long-time Libertarian, and I call him a Walking Encyclopedia. He knows something about any topic you can come up with. He’s always been particularly vigilant about this topic.

  158. From Der Sidelines

    @169: I don’t like felons much more than I don’t like policy idiots. People in positions of trust, such as the Presidency, have to have that trust, and felons and fraudsters do not.

    That’s why it matters.

    Now if you’re content to have such garbage in power, then so be it; it’s your funeral. I have much higher standards than that, and years ago I upped those standards, so up yours… 😛

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