As news of accusations of Roy Moore molesting underage girls breaks, write-in Libertarian Ron Bishop campaign fundraises for skywriter at Auburn-Alabama game

The following was posted to the LNC list by our regional rep, Whitney Bilyeu:

Subject: [Lnc-business] Alabama Race for US Senate
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 12:02:05 -0600
From: Whitney Bilyeu
To: lnc-business@hq.lp.org

Posted at the request of the Rob Bishop Campaign:

Alabama has an upcoming Special Election for US Senate on December 12th. Ron Bishop is an active Libertarian candidate, running a write-in campaign, with a “boisterous group of activists” behind him.

This is an important race, that could shift the balance of power in the Senate, according to Jim Albea, Bishop’s Campaign Manager. The opponents are a “Bannon-backed” Republican and a Democrat, who is misplaced in Alabama politics.

The Bishop campaign would like to hire a skywriter to write “Who is Rob Bishop?” over the upcoming Auburn-Alabama game on November 25th. This would tie in with the write-in campaign, and is an out-of-the-box approach to marketing.

The estimated cost for this is $15,000, according to Albea, and is considered by the campaign to be a good investment, since this game is two weeks before the election, and watched by “every person in the state”.

Time is of the essence for this, so I am putting it out to Region 7, in case any of you would like to contribute to this endeavor. You may do so at https://ron-lpalabama.nationbuilder.com.

Please contact Jim Albea at 205-807-8165 or Jim.albea@lpalabama.org for more information.

(I changed the email address for Jim as requested by him after I got off the phone with him. The original email from Whitney to LNC has Jim’s personal email).

Unbeknownst to Jim, at the very same time national news broke that the Republican candidate in the race, Roy Moore, has been accused of molestation by several girls, at least one of whom was 14 at the time.

WaPo: Woman says Roy Moore initiated sexual encounter when she was 14, he was 32

Politico: McConnell calls on Moore to step aside if report on relations with teenagers is true

Judge Moore, twice removed from the bench for judicial misconduct, denies the allegations and calls them fake news from the liberal media.

483 thoughts on “As news of accusations of Roy Moore molesting underage girls breaks, write-in Libertarian Ron Bishop campaign fundraises for skywriter at Auburn-Alabama game

  1. kevin

    I don’t see anything wrong in the accounts, if true. If anything, this raises my estimation of the man, who like all other men, is mortal and subject to earthly delights. No one accuses him of harassment or rape.

    For self-identified libertarians to criticize him on this ground, raises questions about their fidelity to libertarian principles.

  2. Luke

    There was already plenty wrong with wacko Roy Moore before these charges emerged. He’s a religious wacko who defies the actual law of the land to enforce his view that the Old Testament is the law of the land. Then he gets up on stage dressed up like Howdy Doody and waves his pistol in the air.

    A 32-year old man fingering a 14-year old girl is illegal. He also had sex with a 16 year old, which was legal in Alabama but would have been illegal in plenty of other states and there were no doubt plenty of other cases that have not emerged (at least yet). If you have or have had 14-16 year old kids do you approve of them dating 30-somethings?

    The only thing that is surprising with this nutcase is that he molested girls rather than boys.

  3. Cody Quirk

    What Luke said.

    Plus it certainly lowers my personal opinion of Moore; if these allegations are true then it only shows that he is a moral hypocrite with double standards -something that’s quite common in the fundy/evangelical world.

  4. Anon-Tipper

    tbh, At least splitting the vote and making sure Moore doesn’t win is a win for libertarians. It doesn’t look good for us that Rand endorsed him.

  5. William Saturn

    The establishment is doing whatever it can to prevent an outsider from becoming a US Senator. This is the same thing it tried to do to Donald Trump during the presidential election. Like the American people, the people of Alabama will disregard these lies and elect Judge Moore to the Senate.

  6. paulie Post author

    Might be a big write-in effort for Luther Strange too which will split the Republican vote as well as help educate people how to write in. That will help Libertarian write-in candidate Ron Bishop. All of that put together gives Democratic candidate Doug Jones a fighting chance. The anti-Trump wave from this past Tuesday may even reach Alabama. Roll Tide Roll!

  7. paulie Post author

    It’s far more trustworthy than the Putin-Trump gang propaganda you trust. And dozens of witnesses who remember it from the time including several who are on the record, most of them Republicans.

  8. Luke

    William Saturn is right, there are definite similarities between Trump and Roy Moore. Both have been accused of sexual misconduct by a number of young women and underage girls, and both are creepy old evil clowns personified. Both belong nowhere near any kind of levers of power as both are mentally unstable to say the least. It would be awesome if LP writein Ron Bishop pulled off an upset, albeit extremely unlikely but, if Democrat Doug Jones or Republican writein sitting Senator Luther Strange win that would still be better than Roy Moore. At least Roy Moore would not get to play with the nuclear “football” but he still belongs nowhere near office. In the grand Alabama tradition of Robert Bentley and Troy King, this scandal-ridden sacrimonious scumbag should be sent, at least home, if not to jail.

  9. George Phillies

    Welcome to TheOnion Zone, in which it is impossible to distinguish insane satire from real news. However, this seems to be real news, From the standpoint of the Democratic Party, having him win by, say, three votes would be a golden platter. For Republicans, it would be an amazing disaster. For Libertarians, there are some positive opportunities here.

  10. paulie Post author

    LP.org:

    On Nov. 7, the Libertarian Party won 12 races for public office, continuing an upward trend in the number of voters who support the party. Last year, the Libertarian Party set its all-time record in presidential elections when the ticket of Gov. Gary Johnson and Gov. Bill Weld won nearly 4.5 million votes from all 50 states. Under the leadership of Wes Benedict, executive director of the Libertarian National Committee, the LP is succeeding in maintaining that forward momentum in the 2017 off-year elections through a focus on building the party by winning local races.

    This year’s elections are not quite over. On Dec. 17, a special election will be held in Alabama to fill the seat vacated by Republican Jeff Sessions when he was appointed attorney general. In the GOP primary, the notorious Judge Roy Moore defeated the appointed incumbent. Moore has twice been removed from his former position on the Alabama Supreme Court, once for defying a federal court order to remove a monument of the Ten Commandments from the Alabama Judicial Building and a second time for directing probate court judges to enforce the state’s unconstitutional ban on same-sex marriage.

    The Democrats nominated Doug Jones, who is best known for, in 1998, successfully prosecuting two Ku Klux Klan members for their roles in the 1963 16th Street Baptist Church bombing. Although this is normally a safe GOP state, Moore and Jones are surprisingly close in the polling. The Democratic Party has even dispatched former Joe Biden, the former U.S. vice president, to campaign for Jones in Alabama.

    Enter Libertarian Party candidate Ron Bishop, who is running a solid campaign focused on libertarian principles and positioning himself as the sane choice between an extreme social conservative and a Democrat who is much too progressive for Alabamians to vote for under most circumstances. Bishop’s website, RonBishopForUSSenate.com, provides a clear overview of his positions on a wide range of political issues.

    Bishop faces the challenge of running as a write-in candidate because Alabama election law requires a 20 percent share of the statewide vote in order to retain ballot status. This creates an effective Democratic/Republican political duopoly.

    Bishop hopes to raise enough money to hire a skywriter to sky write “Who is Ron Bishop?” above the Auburn vs. Alabama football game a couple of weeks before the election. The campaign would provide attendees with the answer to that question by distributing 100,000 Ron Bishop campaign flyers throughout the stadium.

    The 12 Libertarian candidates who won office on Nov. 7 are:

    Jim Turney — Altamonte Springs City Commission (Florida)
    Greg Perry — Rome Township Auditor (Pennsylvania)
    Jennifer Moore — Auditor of Upper Providence in Montgomery County (Pennsylvania)
    James Fryman — Victory Township Supervisor in Venango County (Pennsylvania)
    Demo Agoris — Houston Borough Council in Washington County (Pennsylvania)
    Jeffy Geleff — Exeter Township School Director in Berks County (Pennsylvania)
    Jason Aucker — Spring Township Auditor in Snyder County (Pennsylvania)
    Zachary Elliott — Coconut Grove Village Council (Florida)
    Kevine Cline — Long Beach City Council (Washington)
    Christopher Nance — Carthage Town Commission (North Carolina)
    Eleanor Russell — Houston Borough Judge of Elections (Pennsylvania)
    Jake Towne — Lower Nazareth Auditor and Judge of Elections (Pennsylvania)
    Many more Libertarian candidates made respectable showings on Election Day. View more election results.

    https://www.lp.org/election-updates-for-november-2017/

  11. dL

    Welcome to TheOnion Zone,

    Ole Judge Roy was merely operating according to the valued tradition of the old testament age differential. If you are big on traditional values, well that’s some some real old school shit. Of course, the vile garbage that spews from his mouth today should be enough to disqualify him to any sane person w/o need to reach back to what he may have done 40 years ago

  12. paulie Post author

    In the grand Alabama tradition of Robert Bentley and Troy King

    I remember Troy King and his over the top homophobic letters to the editor from college. Later, I remember when Loretta Nall sent him the inflatable pig to protest his enforcement of the sex toy ban. After he was outed as gay she mused the real reason he was upset was that the pig was the wrong gender. Roy Moore is indeed reminiscent of Troy King and Robert Bentley. Other parallels that come to mind would be Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, David Vitter, et al.

  13. paulie Post author

    I agree. The Washington Post is one of the top purveyors of # Fake News.

    A common line by the real purveyors of fake news. Did you read the story? You should actually read it. It’s a shame that this is the comment you have on this story. Please don’t tell me you support Moore also.

  14. kevin

    I don’t recall anything in the 10 commandments like “Do not fondle teenagers”. Perhaps Moore is a hypocrite, but I don’t know of any evidence to that effect.

    Nobody is accusing him of rape so he didn’t initiate force. So, I don’t know why libertarians should be concerned.

    Two of the three girls were of legal age. Concerning the 14 year old, laws vary from state to state. In some states, 14 is old enough for some activity. So even if true, such fondling does not violate the common law.

    The man’s religious beliefs should not be held against him. Just as we don’t blame atheists generally when an atheist goes on a shooting spree in a Texas church. I fail to see a cause for hysteria here.

  15. paulie Post author

    Of course, the vile garbage that spews from his mouth today should be enough to disqualify him to any sane person w/o need to reach back to what he may have done 40 years ago

    Exactly.

  16. Luke

    “Leigh Corfman says she was 14 years old when an older man approached her outside a courtroom in Etowah County, Ala. She was sitting on a wooden bench with her mother, they both recall, when the man introduced himself as Roy Moore.

    It was early 1979 and Moore — now the Republican nominee in Alabama for a U.S. Senate seat — was a 32-year-old assistant district attorney. He struck up a conversation, Corfman and her mother say, and offered to watch the girl while her mother went inside for a child custody hearing.

    “He said, ‘Oh, you don’t want her to go in there and hear all that. I’ll stay out here with her,’ ” says Corfman’s mother, Nancy Wells, 71. “I thought, how nice for him to want to take care of my little girl.”

    Alone with Corfman, Moore chatted with her and asked for her phone number, she says. Days later, she says, he picked her up around the corner from her house in Gadsden, drove her about 30 minutes to his home in the woods, told her how pretty she was and kissed her. On a second visit, she says, he took off her shirt and pants and removed his clothes. He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear.

    “I wanted it over with — I wanted out,” she remembers thinking. “Please just get this over with. Whatever this is, just get it over.”

    She says that it was dark and cold when he picked her up, and that she thought they were going out to eat. Instead, she says, he drove her to his house, which seemed “far, far away.”

    “I remember the further I got from my house, the more nervous I got,” Corfman says.

    She remembers an unpaved driveway. She remembers going inside and him giving her alcohol on this visit or the next, and that at some point she told him she was 14.

    She says that Moore drove her back to the same house after dark, and that before long she was lying on a blanket on the floor. She remembers Moore disappearing into another room and coming out with nothing on but “tight white” underwear.

    She remembers that Moore kissed her, that he took off her pants and shirt, and that he touched her through her bra and underpants. She says that he guided her hand to his underwear and that she yanked her hand back.

    “I wasn’t ready for that — I had never put my hand on a man’s penis, much less an erect one,” Corfman says.

    She remembers thinking, “I don’t want to do this” and “I need to get out of here.”

    After talking to her friends, Corfman says, she began to feel that she had done something wrong and kept it a secret for years.

    “I felt responsible,” she says. “I felt like I had done something bad. And it kind of set the course for me doing other things that were bad.”

    She says that her teenage life became increasingly reckless with drinking, drugs, boyfriends, and a suicide attempt when she was 16.”

    Shame on those who defend Moore’s behavior. There are others who were 16-18 named in the story, legal under Alabama law, but ask yourself if you would want this for your teenage daughter.

  17. paulie Post author

    The Bishop campaign would like to hire a skywriter to write “Who is Rob Bishop?” over the upcoming Auburn-Alabama game on November 25th. This would tie in with the write-in campaign, and is an out-of-the-box approach to marketing.

    They should add “Roy Moore = Pedo” to the sky message. They’ll get way more hits and the money will become a lot easier to raise.

  18. paulie Post author

    The campaign would provide attendees with the answer to that question by distributing 100,000 Ron Bishop campaign flyers throughout the stadium.

    Slip them in a football game program if you don’t want the fliers to go directly to the trash.

  19. paulie Post author

    Also, Alabama petitions can be printed on any color paper. Print a bunch some on Auburn colors some on Alabama colors, ask people to sign for their favorite team when they take the programs with the Ron Bishop flier.

  20. dL

    I don’t recall anything in the 10 commandments like “Do not fondle teenagers”. Perhaps Moore is a hypocrite, but I don’t know of any evidence to that effect.

    Actually, It’s the first two that today readily apply to Moore. False gods and idols. Moore is a baal worhipper; he has elevated the State and the symbols of the State as idols. If you have any doubt to who is god is, simply read his twitter timeline.

  21. Jill Pyeatt

    A common line by the real purveyors of fake news. Did you read the story? You should actually read it. It’s a shame that this is the comment you have on this story. Please don’t tell me you support Moore also.

    I have no opinion on Moore because I’ve been caught up with other things and haven’t been on the Internet much the past couple of weeks.

    The thing is that if someone lies to me more than once, I listen to anything he or she says with skepticism. If the lying or exaggerating or whatever you call it continues, I generally stop talking to that individual.

    That’s the way it is with the Washington Post. I don’t read anything from them anymore.

  22. Tony From Long Island

    Luke:

    A 32-year old man fingering a 14-year old girl is illegal. He also had sex with a 16 year old, which was legal in Alabama but would have been illegal in plenty of other states and there were no doubt plenty of other cases that have not emerged (at least yet). If you have or have had 14-16 year old kids do you approve of them dating 30-somethings?

    I concur 100% with your opinion of Mr. Moore in general, but your descriptions of his behavior is not what was reported.

  23. Tony From Long Island

    Kevin

    Two of the three girls were of legal age. Concerning the 14 year old, laws vary from state to state. In some states, 14 is old enough for some activity. So even if true, such fondling does not violate the common law.

    That is no longer the case. There are no more jurisdictions in the US that have the AOC set at 14. The last was South Carolina and it was engrained in their Constitution. They recently amended it.

    The AOC in Alabama was then and is now 16

    https://www.ageofconsent.net/

  24. Tony From Long Island

    Jill

    I agree. The Washington Post is one of the top purveyors of # Fake News.

    Jill, you have more intellectual strength to make such a blanket statement.

    In the context of this particular thread, the article is well researched and well sourced. There are people who corroborate the allegations. That’s called journalism.

    While the WAPO is ranked has having a slight left bias, it is also ranked has having High Factual reporting.
    https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/washington-post/

    Life is a bit more complex than saying an entire media entity is either “fake news” or not. Trump does that. People with the ability for rational analysis do not.

  25. paulie Post author

    I have no opinion on Moore because I’ve been caught up with other things and haven’t been on the Internet much the past couple of weeks.

    Really, and you never heard of him before now? The guy who was removed from the bench twice, for refusing to remove his religious monument from the courthouse despite court orders and for refusing to accept the Supreme Court’s ruling on gay marriage?

    That’s the way it is with the Washington Post. I don’t read anything from them anymore.

    Much to your detriment. They are doing a lot of great journalism right now on the Putin-Trump gang and other matters such as this one. But it’s so much better to get your news from Pravda and Breitbart, who never ever lie to you.

  26. paulie Post author

    I concur 100% with your opinion of Mr. Moore in general, but your descriptions of his behavior is not what was reported.

    I think Luke copied the relevant portions of the WaPo reporting on what happened to the 14 year old. I am also going to guess that the victims who stepped forward weren’t the only ones and that even those who stepped forward may have cleaned up some of what happened. The social backlash against anyone accusing local hero Roy Moore in Etowah County just as he is about to ascend to the Senate must be tremendous.

  27. paulie Post author

    Life is a bit more complex than saying an entire media entity is either “fake news” or not. Trump does that.

    There are actual fake news sites out there, and many of them were paid by Putin agents to swing the electing to his puppet Trump, or created by them. They have also done this with elections that they have manipulated – some successfully and some not – all over Europe. Trump then turned around and started lobbing the “fake news” accusation at journalists who covered his lies, collusion with Putin, nepotism, corruption, and other critical coverage of the would-be dictator. The same thing was done during Putin’s rise to power, and as he consolidated power he started actually killing off journalists who were critical, something that the Cheeto Benito has expressed open admiration for.

    When people aid and abet Drumpf in his mangling of the term fake news, they are helping him work towards a day when the only press that is allowed to function freely is a pro-regime propaganda machine and critical or opposition journalists get assassinated by reich wing death squads. Hitler was among other infamous dictators who went down this route and the Trumpenfascists have shamelessly adopted the term “Lugenpresse” or lying press from the original German Nazis.

  28. TomP

    Anyone an expert on Alabama election law? Here’s a question I have. Many southern states have runoff provisions in their election law if a candidate doesn’t get an outright majority. Recall that Moore himself won a runoff against Strange, after an initial round of voting had them finish in the top two. That runoff wouldn’t have happened if one of them, or Mo Brooks, had received an outright majority.

    So, is that also the law in this case, for the general election? If so, it would seem that a write in for Mr. Bishop can be a success even if it doesn’t elect Mr. Bishop outright if it holds Moore under 50% in the first round, as that would delay his taking office (who could be opposed to that?). It might be worth it for the Jones to tank, and finish third, as their voters would vote for Bishop over Moore in a heartbeat, but Bishop voters would likely split between the Democrat and Moore.

  29. paulie Post author

    There’s no runoff in the Alabama general election. Also, the bulk of the write-in vote will most likely be for Luther Strange, the sitting appointed Senator in that seat who narrowly lost the primary to Moore. However that could be good for Bishop as the Strange write-in campaign will be educating voters on how to properly write in a candidate, quite likely with some real funds behinds them. I think it’s plausible that Strange could pull off a Murkowski style write-in win, or that Doug Jones would be the plurality winner with the Republican votes split mainly among Moore and Strange and some for Bishop. Hopefully more than a fraction of a percent for Bishop.

  30. paulie Post author

    The ballots are already printed so it’s too late to replace Moore on the ballot. There is a segment of the Republican Party that would prefer to put its big money behind Strange write-in, but Moore has a loyal following and it’s likely that a Strange run would elect Doug Jones. For that matter it’s possible that Jones will anyway as he was already only 10 points behind in the polls before the latest news about Moore.

    Some Republicans may prefer Jones for one term to having Moore disgrace their party by being in the Senate, but they are faced with a dilemma because they need the seat due to the close balance of power in the Senate. If Strange or some other prominent Republican refuses to play ball with their write-in efforts there could be an outside chance they will support campaigning for moderate Republicans to write in Bishop, since he already has a (somewhat) organized write-in campaign. It’s a real long shot, but if the Iron Bowl plan outlined above can be executed effectively it may persuade either the anti-Moore Republicans, the Democrats or both to put some real money behind the Bishop write-in effort in the last two weeks.

  31. George Phillies

    “I don’t recall anything in the 10 commandments…” There are considerably more commandments than that, a standard count being 613 mitzvot, but the 4th Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery covers this one completely.

  32. Tony From Long Island

    Paulie: ” . . .I think Luke copied the relevant portions of the WaPo reporting on what happened to the 14 year old. . . . ”

    I read nothing with the words “fingering.” The behavior apparently was over underwear, not under. You could say that’s word sematics, but the elements of those crimes are very specific.

  33. Tony From Long Island

    Paulie: ” . . . .There are actual fake news sites out there, and many of them were paid by Putin agents to swing the electing to his puppet Trump, or created by them. . . . ”

    Of course there are, but I was referring to legitimate media. Even I don’t say that every word uttered on FOX News is false. Not every word printed in the Washington Post is true or false.

    I did my masters thesis on the history of Megan’s Law. I am very knowledgeable about sexual offenses and had a chapter on the age of consent. There is nothing so far that I have read to indicate to me that these claims are false.

    The length of time that has gone by without it being reported is completely irrelevant and rather common.

  34. dL

    Really, and you never heard of him before now? The guy who was removed from the bench twice, for refusing to remove his religious monument from the courthouse despite court orders and for refusing to accept the Supreme Court’s ruling on gay marriage?

    That’s enough to dismiss the idiot as a lunatic without the need to enthusiastically join the current Orwellian sex crime witchhunts…

  35. Andy

    I don’t know whether or not these allegations against Roy Moore are true. If they are true, then he’s a hypocrite (which would not be a surprise, because a lot of the “holier than thou” types in politics turn out to be hypocrites), if they are not true, whoever made these allegations should be ashamed of themselves.

    Regardless of whether the allegations are true or not, they are not coming from anyone who has anything to do with the Libertarian Party, but the Libertarian Party could capitalize on this, but, the party is going to be unable to capitalize on this to the extent that it could, because the party does not have ballot access in Alabama.

    There was talk earlier this year of launching ballot access petition drive in Alabama, but it never took off, due to lack of funding for the LNC (and the Gary Johnson donor list has not been nearly as productive for LP fundraising as some had hoped, as it turned out that a good number of the names on there had no interest in the LP, and only donated with the hope of swaying the outcome of the presidential race), and due to the state party in Alabama doing little or nothing to “pull itself up by the bootstraps” toward the goal of obtaining ballot access. The proposal was to launch two petitions, one for full party status for the LP of AL for 2018, and the other, to place an LP candidate on the ballot for the special US Senate race. The petition for the special US Senate race was going to have to have a law suit as well, because there is no provision in the law in Alabama to reduce the petition signature requirements for special elections, even though there is far less time to gather these petition signatures, due to the fact that special elections are called in between general elections, and there is not a lot of advanced notice prior to the announcement of a general election. It is completely unreasonable and irrational to require the same number of petition signatures for a special election as for a general election, especially given that the Democrats and Republicans for partisan offices in Alabama do not have to gather any petition signatures to get themselves on the ballot (with the exception of D’s and R’s for presidential primaries, but that requirement is only 500 valid signatures, which is really easy). I think that there’s a good chance that this is a lawsuit that the Libertarian Party could have won, and this would have benefited the party not just in this election, but also in future special elections.

    Regardless of whether or not the Libertarian Party would have won the lawsuit described above, this is yet another example of the importance of ballot access. The Libertarian Party has not had party status in Alabama since the 2002 election. Since then, the Libertarian Party has put its presidential candidates on the AL ballot as independents, because the petition requirement for independent presidential candidates in AL is much lower than it takes to get on the ballot there with a party label. A small handful of Libertarian Party candidates have petitioned to get on the ballot for district or county offices, and a few Libertarians have petitioned to get themselves on the ballot for non-partisan city/town offices, and that’s it. There has been talk of getting the Libertarian Party back on the ballot in Alabama as a qualified political party since the last time it was on there, 15 years ago, but talk is all it has been thus far.

    This is not the first time that the Libertarian Party has missed a really good opportunity to get ahead by not having ballot access. Back in 2014 in Alabama, the Democrats did not run a candidate for US Senate in the general election, so a Republican candidate ran unopposed. If the Libertarian Party had achieved ballot access there, it could have been Libertarian vs Republican for US Senate, which would have assured the LP candidate more publicity, and a higher than normal vote percentage in a US Senate race. The same thing happened in South Dakota in 2010, as in the Democrats did not run a US Senate candidate, but because the LP of South Dakota did not have ballot access (note that the LP did a paid petition drive for full party status in South Dakota around late 2007-early 2008, but it failed due to mismanagement from the LP and the non-libertarian mercenaries they hired screwing it up, so the party had to do another paid petition drive in South Dakota later that year to put the presidential candidate only on the ballot, and note that in South Dakota, the full party status petition is good for two general elections, so if the LP had not screwed up the 2008 party status drive, the party would have remained ballot qualified in 2010, and could therefore had been able to field a candidate for US Senate, who’d have been in a two way race vs a Republican), the LP squandered this opportunity.

    This would have been an excellent opportunity for the LP to get ahead in this special US Senate race in Alabama, but because the party is not prepared, the party is reduced to running a write in candidate, whose campaign plan is to hire a skywriter to write his name over a football stadium while a game is going on, with the hope that this will lead to lots of people writing his name in for the special election.

    How about the Libertarian Party get its act together so it can actually be in a position to take advantage of situations like this rather than sitting on the sidelines, or being reduced to using “Hail Mary passes” (a phrase used in football to describe last minute desperation passes that have little chance of working in order to try to win a game) like hiring a sky writer promote a write in candidate whose name is not going to appear on the ballot?

    Over the last 21 plus years, I have seen the Libertarian Party squander so many opportunities, screw up so many things, and waste money on things that do little or nothing to get the party ahead, and in some cases have even been destructive to the stated goals of the party, that it could fill a book.

  36. Tony From Long Island

    Pigs have flown. I agree with quite a bit of what Andy just posted. It was rather level-headed and rational. Are we sure that wasn’t a fake Andy? 🙂

  37. paulie Post author

    Pigs have flown. I agree with quite a bit of what Andy just posted. It was rather level-headed and rational. Are we sure that wasn’t a fake Andy?

    The IP is the same one he usually posts from. As for what he said, no idea as it was TL; DR.

  38. paulie Post author

    That’s enough to dismiss the idiot as a lunatic

    Yes, and while I’m all for opposing the establishment, it matters what alternative you propose.

    If your proposed alternative involves ethnonationalism, know-nothing nativism, cheering on police brutality, admiring and emulating foreign dictators, groping women and underage girls without permission, third world levels of corruption and nepotism, attacks on freedom of the press, and seeking to replace the rule of law with personal decrees from an unchecked executive (Trump) or Old Testament patriarchy, theocracy, groping underage girls without permission, homophobia, and defiance of the rule of law (Moore), no thanks.

  39. paulie Post author

    I read nothing with the words “fingering.” The behavior apparently was over underwear, not under. You could say that’s word sematics, but the elements of those crimes are very specific.

    I would guess that he’s probably done worse than what’s been made public so far. But you are technically correct about what has been actually said in print to this point. I think the more relevant part is the long term impact it had on the then 14 year old girl in the decades afterwards though.

  40. paulie Post author

    There are considerably more commandments than that, a standard count being 613 mitzvot,

    True.

    but the 4th Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery covers this one completely.

    He was single at the time. Fornication?

  41. Losty

    Luke is right, and I am shocked that some seem to be defending him.

    These are all deserved, but look at the difference:

    Anthony Weiner sent a sickening picture to someone, He’s doing 22 Months.

    Kevin Spacey Got fired, Cut out of films, and ruined his career. He remains uncharged legally.

    Harvey Weinstein… Enough Said. Yet by the LEGAL Definition, he isn’t charged… YET.
    Hopefully soon, looks like Manhattan has a charge coming…

    Roy Moore appears to have a possible charge coming, In any state where the AG Isn’t… Possibly Complicit?

    Beyond a reasonable doubt is for the legal system.
    It is NOT for whether someone can serve in the United States Senate.

    And WaPo? When they rain with the Russian hacked altered emails? Many said nothing then…

    Remember Woodward/Bernstein? WaPo.

    Now Politically…

    I hope Strange files a write in, and that this guy gets write in…

    But I am not sure that’s enough.

    Some things are wrong, and I am not sure this doesn’t supersede party (Especially when the LP candidate wouldn’t actually help the LP… )

    Not sure this doesn’t require a louder message… A Doug Message…

  42. paulie Post author

    skywriting plan is an idiotic waste of money.

    Jim Albea’s contact info is in the article. If you have better ideas you can suggest them.

  43. Chuck Moulton

    Luke wrote:

    Shame on those who defend Moore’s behavior. There are others who were 16-18 named in the story, legal under Alabama law, but ask yourself if you would want this for your teenage daughter.

    I’m no fan of Roy Moore at all, but the framing of this is way out of proportion to what actually happened. Everything was consensual, there was no sex, there was no fingering, and by the victims’ own reports he immediately stopped and drove them home when they asked him to. The media is trying to draw a false (and ridiculous) equivalence between this and the actual rapes carried out by other celebrities.

    As for the paragraph I quoted above from Luke, I am appalled by all the “libertarians” who parade out “think of the children!!!” nonsense. If I had a daughter, would I be annoyed if she had sex with someone much older? Maybe. I could also be annoyed if such a hypothetical daughter did drugs or drank alcohol or a litany of other things. But fundamentally such a daughter would be an independent person who ought to be able to make her own decisions. It is offensive to me that anyone would think any child should be a slave to her parents, removing all autonomy. It’s too bad the LP removed the children’s rights plank from its platform.

  44. losty

    ection 13A-6-66
    Sexual abuse in the first degree.
    (a) A person commits the crime of sexual abuse in the first degree if:

    (1) He subjects another person to sexual contact by forcible compulsion; or

    (2) He subjects another person to sexual contact who is incapable of consent by reason of being physically helpless or mentally incapacitated.

    (b) Sexual abuse in the first degree is a Class C felony.

    (Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, §2320; Act 2006-575, p. 1512, §2.)

    Section 13A-6-67
    Sexual abuse in the second degree.
    (a) A person commits the crime of sexual abuse in the second degree if:

    (1) He subjects another person to sexual contact who is incapable of consent by reason of some factor other than being less than 16 years old; or

    (2) He, being 19 years old or older, subjects another person to sexual contact who is less than 16 years old, but more than 12 years old.

    (b) Sexual abuse in second degree is a Class A misdemeanor, except that if a person commits a second or subsequent offense of sexual abuse in the second degree within one year of another sexual offense, the offense is a Class C felony.

    (Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, §2321; Act 2000-728, p. 1566, §1.)

    We don’t know if 6-66 (1) is listed, but we have a pretty good idea at least 6-67 (2) is, And if there are more?

    Oh, and less than 16? Deemed incapable of consent.

  45. Tony From Long Island

    Losty

    in 1979, she was 14.
    Sexual assault.. No SOL..

    Every State has different statute of limitations. In New York, for instance, it would be 5 years or 5 years from a victim’s 18th birthday. It was recently changed for rape in the 1st degree so there is no SOL, but it is not retroactive. The supreme court ruled that a few years ago.

    That being said, I do not know the specifics of Alabama’s SOL laws as they were in 1979 (or now).

  46. losty

    But that isn’t even the point…

    Beyond a reasonable doubt is for the legal system.
    It is NOT for whether someone can serve in the United States Senate.

  47. Tony From Long Island

    Judge Chuck

    I’m no fan of Roy Moore at all, but the framing of this is way out of proportion to what actually happened. Everything was consensual, there was no sex, there was no fingering, and by the victims’ own reports he immediately stopped and drove them home when they asked him to.

    Trust me, I am the last one to judge people based on sexual contact with a minor. HOWEVER, you seem to be rationalizing and justifying it. . . Oh well he stopped when she asked. That makes it OK to elect this person senator. What if she was 13 . . . . what if she was 12, what if she was 11. Where is the line for you as to whether it is OK that he stopped when she asked?

    I ask that out of genuine curiosity. I have done mountains of research on this subject so I’d like to hear your take.

    I make no judgement on his behavior. I also don’t condone it or try to rationalize it. Roy Moore was a despicable human being BEFORE yesterday. Now he’s also a hypocrite. If he is elected, the Republican party is doomed.

  48. Chuck Moulton

    It is up to each voter to decide whether to vote for or against a candidate based on any criteria he or she desires, be that policy positions or the color of his hat.

    At no point did I suggest any voter should support Roy Moore for U.S. Senate. If someone wants to refrain from voting for him because he dated an 18 year old or a 16 year old or a 14 year old, that is the individual voter’s prerogative.

    What I find annoying is 1) the repeated assertions by commenters here and in the media that Roy Moore did things not factually supported by any of the allegations in the article (like sex and fingering), 2) the conflation with law and morality suggesting if he did something illegal that makes it immoral (and vice-versa), and 3) the position of many self-identified libertarians that anyone under 18 has no agency (e.g., what the parents want or should want matters and the individual’s own decisions are irrelevant to any analysis of morality).

    I entirely agree that Roy Moore is nuts and should not be elected to U.S. Senate (or any other office). However, if I lived in Alabama (which I did briefly, but haven’t for a decade), none of the allegations of consensual dating with these women would make me less or more likely to vote for him. These media accounts are appeals to patriarchal, puritanical social mores, and I’m flabbergasted that any libertarian would pay them heed.

  49. paulie Post author

    Latest report I saw is that the Republican Senatorial Campaign Committee has pulled funding for Moore. Also on TV.

  50. Chuck Moulton

    Tony from Long Island,

    In my opinion bright line rules conflating age with maturity are bad policy that punish a lot of innocent behavior.

    In my opinion below the age of maturity there ought to (as a matter of policy) be a rebuttable presumption of immaturity and lack of consent. This would give defendants an opportunity to present evidence that the behavior was voluntary rather than coerced, instead of imposing strict liability.

  51. Tony From Long Island

    Chuck. I don’t necessarily disagree with you. However that is a slippery slope and virtually impossible to prove.

    Your idea, as well as strict liability both have flaws.

    I think the age difference should also play a factor. The chapter of my thesis I wrote on the history of age of consent laws was fascinating to research.

  52. Michael Chastain

    I’m going to leave Moore aside. I think a better question is: what is a good thing for Libertarians to do with $15k?

    (1) Skywriting campaign in Alabama.
    (2) Party ballot access in Ohio.
    (3) Party ballot access in Tennessee.
    (4) Support ranked choice voting in Maine.
    (5) Support Libertarians running for re-election in 2018.

    When I look at those alternate uses, “skywriting campaign in Alabama” does not make the cut (in my opinion).

  53. paulie Post author

    I’m hoping Ron Bishop will get funding from people who would like to influence the race in Alabama and thus the overall balance of power in the US Senate, not necessarily from libertarians. It’s possible that some seed funding from libertarians could help with that, but I’m not sure about that. If anyone has better ideas for the campaign to get its writein message out to a large cross-section of Alabama voters, please post them here and/or get them to the campaign directly.

  54. Andy

    “Michael Chastain
    November 10, 2017 at 16:44
    I’m going to leave Moore aside. I think a better question is: what is a good thing for Libertarians to do with $15k?

    (1) Skywriting campaign in Alabama.
    (2) Party ballot access in Ohio.
    (3) Party ballot access in Tennessee.
    (4) Support ranked choice voting in Maine.
    (5) Support Libertarians running for re-election in 2018.

    When I look at those alternate uses, ‘skywriting campaign in Alabama’ does not make the cut (in my opinion).”

    I totally agree. Numbers 2-5 on your list make far more sense than squandering $15,000 to skywrite the name of a write in candidate for an office they have nothing resembling a realistic chance to win, and which will do little for outreach efforts, and I’m sure we could all think of other more productive uses of donor money.

    Here are a few other things I can think of that would be more productive than spending $15,000 to hire a skywriter for a write in candidate in a race they have no chance of winning:

    1) Stop Top Two Primary in South Dakota (this was just put on the ballot there via paid petition drive with non-libertarian mercenary petitioners).

    2) Frostproof, Florida City Council race. Frostproof, Florida has elected two Libertarians to its city council. The council has five seats. If Libertarians take one more seat, Libertarians will control the Frostproof City Council. This will show the public what Libertarians can do when they take control of a government council/board. This could lead to media coverage, and even if the mainstream media ignores it, there is always the alternative media and YouTube.

    3) Libertarians running in winnable races. Every election, there are at least a few Libertarians running for seats in state legislatures, city councils/town boards, county commissions/boards, and other races where they actually have a chance to win, and make an impact. The Libertarian Party generally does little or nothing to support these candidates, which is why they lose most of the time.

    4) Run a Libertarian for Sheriff in a low population county, where raising enough money to stand a chance to win is actually realistic. Once elected, the Libertarian Sheriff can appoint Libertarians as Deputies. The Libertarian Deputies do not have to live in the county. Show the public what Libertarians can do when they take control of law enforcement in a county. Every state has some low population counties. New Hampshire may be a good place to try this, due to the Free State Project, but this could be tried in a low population county anywhere in the country.

    5) Support ballot access in states where the Libertarian Party does not have ballot access, like Illinois, New York, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts (the LP’s ballot access map makes it look like the party has ballot access, but they actually still have to do petition drives if they want to put any candidates on the ballot next year), Alabama (if the LP had ballot access in Alabama right now, there would not be discussion to hire a skywriter for a write in candidate), Rhode Island, etc…

    6) Support Libertarian Party candidates that are actually working hard to get the party a lot of publicity, and who are trying to run real campaigns, and especially those who are in races that can get the party ballot access for 2020. Larry Sharpe for Governor of New York comes to mind here.

  55. William Saturn

    I wouldn’t trust polls, especially for a race in which the media has an ax to grind. This is likely why the polls during the 2016 presidential election were so off.

    Here’s a link to the poll Paulie references above: https://s3.amazonaws.com/ddhqpolls/AL+Sen+11.9.17.pdf

    In comparison to the poll from the same company in September (https://opinionsavvy.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/AL-Senate-Poll-9.29.17.pdf), the recent poll over-samples mobile users, who favor Jones over Moore. This is how they were able to make the race look closer than it actually is.

  56. paulie Post author

    This is likely why the polls during the 2016 presidential election were so off.

    They weren’t all that off. They showed Clinton +5, ended up being Clinton +3. Some people always make up their minds at the last minute and 2% is often within the margin of error.

    the recent poll over-samples mobile users, who favor Jones over Moore.

    And why did they do that? Maybe they have other data showing that some demographics are showing more enthusiasm and more likelihood of turning out.

    There are still several weeks to go. It’s likely there will be write-in efforts geared up. Most likely for Luther Strange or someone similar. Or, maybe some major donors who don’t usually give to the LP will discover Ron Bishop. The Democrats are just starting to move national money to Alabama, while the Republican Senatorial Campaign Committee pulled out. More accusers may well step forward against Moore.

    So, I’m not resigning myself to Moore being seated in the Senate just yet. I think he could still be defeated. Barring that, pressure should be put on each and every Republican Senator to refuse to caucus with him. He should be treated as persona non grata in the Senate. His colleagues should literally turn their backs on him whenever he speaks. He shouldn’t be greeted, given the time of day or afforded any courtesy whatsoever. But let’s hope none of that becomes necessary and that he is defeated in this election one way or another.

  57. Andy

    I just thought of another far more productive use of $15,000 of LP donor money than hiring a skywriter for a write in candidate in Alabama who is in a race they stand no chance of winning.

    Put $15,000 into obtaining an attorney to file lawsuits in one or more places where Libertarian Party petition circulators have been illegally prevented from gathering petition signatures. Libertarian Party petition circulators being illegally run out of locations while attempting to gather signatures is one of the main reasons that ballot access drives fail, or have to be bailed out in expensive, and stressful, last minute saves. Libertarian Party petition circulators are illegally harassed, and run out of locations that carry public foot traffic, almost every time the LP does a ballot access drive, and this issue has caused lots of Libertarian Party candidates to not qualify for the ballot, and it has cost the LP I don’t know how much money (it would be a lot if you added up every time this happened since the party has been in existence), yet the LP has done little or nothing to address this, and I have never ever heard of anyone in the LP actually filing a lawsuit over this.

    There are other groups and individuals out there who have filed lawsuits over this issue, and they have won, in some cases winning large settlements. These free speech lawsuit victories have also helped the Libertarian Party, and other groups doing ballot access drives, or just engaging in free speech, because these victories have gotten the government thugs to back down in some places.

    I have presented multiple lawsuit opportunities concerning this issue to the LNC, and to some of the state parties, and instead of taking any action, they sit back like a bunch of lemmings and do nothing, almost as if they enjoy rolling over and getting kicked around by the state over and over again.

    The Libertarian Party could actually win money in these lawsuits (for example, a person who was collecting petition signatures at a state university in California was told they could only do it in a free speech zone, which cut them off from talking to a lot of people, and this person sued, and the university had to pay him a $110,000 settlement), if these victories can also get the government to stop their goons from hassling and running off petition circulators, which would ease the ballot access process in future petition drives.

  58. George Phillies

    “This is likely why the polls during the 2016 presidential election were so off.”

    In fact, the RealClearPolitics poll aggregator showed Clinton+3, when the outcome was Clinton +2, which is remarkably accurate. Note (Paulie had the number first) that the Huffington aggregator was +5. It seems to me that the FiveThirtyEight aggregator was +3 also. More important, the 538 simulator said Clinton’s chances of winning were no better than 3-to-1.

  59. William Saturn

    Florida – aggregate of polls show Clinton with lead 2.6 to 4.4
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statewide_opinion_polling_for_the_United_States_presidential_election,_2016#Florida
    Result: Trump wins + 1.2

    Michigan – aggregate of polls show Clinton with lead 4 to 11.4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statewide_opinion_polling_for_the_United_States_presidential_election,_2016#Michigan
    Result: Trump wins + 0.23

    Pennsylvania – aggregate of polls show Clinton with lead 5 to 7.4
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statewide_opinion_polling_for_the_United_States_presidential_election,_2016#Pennsylvania
    Result: Trump wins + 0.72

    Wisconsin – aggregate of polls show Clinton with lead 3 to 7.2
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statewide_opinion_polling_for_the_United_States_presidential_election,_2016#Wisconsin
    Result: Trump wins + 0.76

  60. paulie Post author

    RCP average right now is Moore +4.7, and that goes back to 9/30. Opinion Savvy is the only poll since the latest news broke and it shows a tie. It’s a real race, and Moore could most definitely be toppled. Part of that may well be peeling off some votes that would not vote for a Democrat no matter what but might vote for a write-in, whether that be Strange or Ron Bishop.

    Strange and other leading Republicans may be unwilling to stick their neck out to support a write-in campaign for themselves n(remains to be seen). It’s possible that Ron Bishop could be the most organized write-in candidate heading into the stretch. As such, it could be in the financial interest of a lot of people – both those who want to see the Democrats win (and thus come closer to taking over the Senate where it’s close on many votes) and those who generally support Republicans but don’t want Roy Moore disgracing their party in the Senate – to put some money behind the Ron Bishop write-in. These are not donors who would fund other LP projects.

    As such, reaching the crowd at the Iron Bowl is one way to grab the state’s attention. If you have not spent time in Alabama you don’t understand, the Iron Bowl is the highlight of the whole year and there is no college football game anywhere in the country that is the center of a state’s attention to that extent anywhere else in the country. But if you have a better idea, please let us (or the campaign, if your advice is confidential) know. Contact info is in the post above.

  61. paulie Post author

    If there’s an issue with people not being honest with pollsters, it may be working against Moore right now, not for him. There are a lot of people who may not be so willing to tell anyone out loud that they are considering voting for anyone except a Republican, especially “God’s own” Republican. The Republican hold on Alabama is strong in the last couple of decades but it could be broken in this case.

  62. George Phillies

    The state polls tended to stop somewhat before election day. and showed a large undecided. However, you are indeed right that the states that turned out to be interesting were not very accurate. On the other hand, the Massachusetts polling was quite close to the final 60-32-4 outcome.

  63. George Phillies

    I was actually thinking of the national pollint; I have not seen a state-by-state comparison of polling for all 51 states.

    As an interesting numerical aside, perhaps showing how third parties affect things, note the Huffington Post article https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/democrats-back-virginia-house-of-delegates_us_5a024a75e4b092053058c616

    In the D-R governor race, the Republicans got very nearly the same vote percentage both times. However, Democrat Northam picked up the third party vote, and had a 9% victory margin rather than Clinton’s 5%. In the House of Delegate election, there is a graphical thing comparing victory margins for Clinton in 2016 and delegates in 2017. Nationalization of election results occurred; districts that went for Clinton now mostly have D rather than R Delegates, as opposed to before the election. However, in the figure, recalling that red circles mark places where Republicans did better this time than Trump did in 2016, notice that even in Northern Virginia where the democrats picked up many seats the Republican vote percentages went up, not down; Clinton carried a lot of these now-Democratic-Delegate districts by more votes than the Democrats did this year.

  64. itdoesntmatter

    Moore only dated the teenagers after seeking their parents’ permission. He’s a great American like Ted Nugent.

  65. paulie Post author

    He did not seek the permission of the parents of the girl who was then 14. He told her mother he would be saving her from having to listen to unpleasant things in court.

  66. George Phillies

    Parental permission is irrelevant for what allegedly happened.

    Of course, many voters will be more concerned about how one of these characters will contribute to screwing them personally, as citizens and taxpayers, and rather less about what these characters did some decades ago.

  67. paulie Post author

    It’s pretty much the same in the case of Roy Moore. Think of Roy Moore supporters as the political equivalent of a 14 year old girl who has never touched a man “down there” and being used/exploited by a cynical older man for his own momentary pleasure and lust for power.

  68. dL

    What I find annoying is 1) the repeated assertions by commenters here and in the media that Roy Moore did things not factually supported by any of the allegations in the article (like sex and fingering), 2) the conflation with law and morality suggesting if he did something illegal that makes it immoral (and vice-versa), and 3) the position of many self-identified libertarians that anyone under 18 has no agency (e.g., what the parents want or should want matters and the individual’s own decisions are irrelevant to any analysis of morality).

    Completely agree with those statements.

    I’m no fan of Roy Moore at all, but the framing of this is way out of proportion to what actually happened. Everything was consensual, there was no sex, there was no fingering, and by the victims’ own reports he immediately stopped and drove them home when they asked him to.

    Although the “fingering” part was made up Pauli, it is also clear from accounts that not all of Moore’s advances were consensual.

    Generally, I refrain from any schadenfreude over sex crime witchhunts against political enemies b/c it is an easy cannon with a wide, indiscriminate aim. And while it should be pointed out that the social mores RE: sexual consent are not the same today as they were in the late 70s and 80s, something like an age differential between early 30s and 14, particularly for a public figure, would have been a scandal then. Of course, it should also be pointed out that social cons like Moore played no small part in the zero tolerance hysteria that has since developed around sexual consent.

    These media accounts are appeals to patriarchal, puritanical social mores, and I’m flabbergasted that any libertarian would pay them heed.

    Well, I’m not flabbergasted. There is nothing that will make a libertarian typically run to the hills more than an age of consent brouhaha.

    Some of this stuff it is hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. I watched a video of some mother crying on TV about Kevin Spacey making a pass at her then 18 year old son in a restaurant/bar. You’ve got to be kidding me…

  69. paulie Post author

    The Iron Bowl always dominates the attention of Alabama, but after yesterday it will be especially significant this year as it will be crucial to determining both the division and national playoff participants. If anyone has a better idea than leafletting (and potentially skywriting) the Iron Bowl for a write-in campaign to reach a lot of people I am still interested as to what that would be, and I’m sure the campaign would as well.

  70. Thane Eichenauer

    Roy Moore will be elected. What happens after that I don’t know. Let it be known that my brain cells are currently hopped up on a combination of beef taquitos and chocolate milk.

  71. paulie Post author

    Roy Moore will be elected.

    Maybe, maybe not. +1.7 in the poll average and -4 in the latest poll is hardly a sure win. A lot can happen between now and the election. We shall see.

  72. paulie Post author

    In any case all the recent polls are showing the race is close, including the poll average which goes back 4 weeks. As another 4 weeks remain a lot more could happen. It remains to be seen whether there will be a write-in with serious money. Granted the chances are remote, but it could even be Ron Bishop if they can’t find one of their own to do it.

  73. Michael Chastain

    Thanks for the suggestions Andy. I’ve taken notes and will spend more time researching these.

    (1) Stop Top Two — I don’t know enough yet to have an opinion.

    (2) Frostproof FL city council — sounds good except they are in Florida. So I have to figure out if the Libertarian city council members in Frostproof are in the white supremacist faction.

    (3) “Libertarians running in winnable races” — I am very interested in this. In 2018 I am contributing to Libertarians who have already won at least one race and are running again. A prior victory is a good sign that their current campaign may win.

    If I could distinguish winnable candidates from paper candidates, then I would contribute more to winnable candidates in their first race, too.

    (4) Sherriff in a low population county — I don’t know enough yet to have an opinion.

    (5) Ballot access — I’m interested in this, and also disconcerted by how bad some of the LP drives are. They should be better after 40 years of practice.

    (6) Candidates who are working hard to (a) get publicity, (b) run real campaigns, and (c) get ballot access: I’m interested in this. I’ve already donated to Larry Sharpe and am looking into donating more. I’m particularly interested in (c).

    Also from another comment:

    (7) Petition lawsuits. I’m interested, but wary.

    I’m also interested in ballot propositions. Carla Howell in Massachussetts got a lot of votes to repeal the income tax. Those propositions gave her recognition for a US Senate run, where she got 12% in a three-way race. That’s good work!

  74. paulie Post author

    Frostproof FL city council — sounds good except they are in Florida. So I have to figure out if the Libertarian city council members in Frostproof are in the white supremacist faction.

    I know one of them, Martin Sullivan. He’s not.

  75. Tony From Long Island

    Re: The LP of Alabama press release

    The individual mandate has been found to be constitutional. Just ask John Roberts.

  76. George Phillies

    The natioanl polling was unusually accurate. A few of the state polls — state polling is harder than national were off somewhat more. Alas for the sanity of some duopoly party supporters, these were the polls in PA, MI, and WI.

  77. paulie Post author

    The new Emerson poll shows Moore with a ten point lead.

    That’s within the range it’s been bouncing around in. Let’s see if any writein campaigns get serious backing.

  78. paulie Post author

    The individual mandate has been found to be constitutional. Just ask John Roberts.

    Unlike Tony from Long Island, LP of Alabama does not believe that any patently absurd misinterpretation of the constitution by the supreme court is the true determination of what is constitutional. The constitution doesn’t even say that – the court claimed that right for itself.

  79. Tony From Long Island

    *sigh*

    We always seem to go around in circles on this 🙂

    The Supreme Court is the ultimate arbiter of what is Constitutional in this country. They have made several decisions I disagree with (Heller, for example). Oh well. Their ruling stands.

    What is patently absurd is for a political party that wants to take itself seriously stating that their opinion trumps the Supreme Court.

    There are numerous things about Doug Jones that the LP of Alabama could have chosen and still remained factually correct. Why they chose that particular issue when it caused them to state a mis-truth is beyond me.

  80. Tony From Long Island

    George:

    The natioanl polling was unusually accurate. A few of the state polls — state polling is harder than national were off somewhat more. Alas for the sanity of some duopoly party supporters, these were the polls in PA, MI, and WI.

    Those final tally of those states was generally within the margin of error from the early November polls.

  81. paulie Post author

    The natioanl polling was unusually accurate. A few of the state polls — state polling is harder than national were off somewhat more. Alas for the sanity of some duopoly party supporters, these were the polls in PA, MI, and WI.

    One campaign had a better idea of what the actual battleground states were than the other, thus that is no big surprise. Of course, they also had help from a late breaking announcement from Comey (and the subsequent announcement right before the election was too late to undo the damage) and a massive social media psyops operation by the Putin half of the Putin-Trump gang on behalf of the Trump half, thanks to allies in the Trump half aimed very precisely at the correct states and demographics.

    Although all the US media keep chanting like a mantra that there was no actual ballot box electronic vote counting software manipulation, I think that is not something we can really know. We do know that the Putin gang hacked into the elections databases in quite a few states, possibly all of them. And from watching and reading re *Black Box Voting* I know that electronic vote manipulation is certainly possible in principle. But even if that did not happen, the psyops manipulation did, just as it had in Ukraine, unsuccessfully in France, etc.

    It’s likely that there were at the very least games played with voter roll purges in a demographically targeted fashion. And, there was a story that some people particularly in what the media like to refer to as urban demographics who were manipulated to believe that voting in a text poll was an actual vote in the election and they could save themselves some time waiting in line at the polls.

    The Democrats also screwed themselves coming after Gary Johnson in the stretch. They assumed those votes would go to them, but it appears that a lot of them went to Trump. Including a not-insignificant number of primary Bernie Sanders voters, despite the efforts of Sanders himself.

    So, it’s not particularly surprising that polls in some key states failed to catch up to the last minute moves of the electorate. I don’t think that is necessarily going to be the case in Alabama, but it might be. If it is, it may work either for or against Moore.

  82. paulie Post author

    What is patently absurd is for a political party that wants to take itself seriously stating that their opinion trumps the Supreme Court.

    We disagree and there’s no point in arguing about it. The LP of Alabama agrees with me and so does the LP all over the country, among many other people.

  83. Tony From Long Island

    Let’s focus on what we do agree on. . . your post about the election, for instance. There is much validity there.

  84. TomP

    “The Democrats also screwed themselves coming after Gary Johnson in the stretch. They assumed those votes would go to them, but it appears that a lot of them went to Trump. Including a not-insignificant number of primary Bernie Sanders voters, despite the efforts of Sanders himself.”

    THIS. Hillary’s toadies began to attack Johnson when the race tightened and they saw that Johnson had a lot of appeal to younger voters, whom they assumed they were entitled to. Their attacks cost Johnson support (which was half of their aim), but sent those votes to Trump. This was, for them, one of many dumb things they did, and possibly one of the dumbest (although underreported).

  85. dL

    Unlike Tony from Long Island, LP of Alabama does not believe that any patently absurd misinterpretation of the constitution by the supreme court is the true determination of what is constitutional. The constitution doesn’t even say that – the court claimed that right for itself.

    The Supreme Court has a long and proud tradition of conferring broad, arbitrary power to the State under the guise of the commerce clause or taxation or whatever. That decision was not an anomaly. The individual mandate is an immoral law but not an unconstitutional one.

  86. Michael Chastain

    My model of voter behavior is that voters put value on a combination of electability, experience, and agreement on policy positions. If a lot of voters really did move from Sanders to Johnson to Trump, but not Clinton, that really makes hash of my model!

    There’s some other quality that some voters put value on. I don’t have a name for it. “Charisma” is too general a word for it.

    Every time I read a poll I look for evidence about where Libertarians come from. For example in one poll for Hyra for Governor, Virginia, 2017, about 1% of conservatives, 1% of liberals, and 6% of independents, named Hyra as their choice.

  87. paulie Post author

    If a lot of voters really did move from Sanders to Johnson to Trump, but not Clinton, that really makes hash of my model!

    There’s some other quality that some voters put value on.

    In this case I think it was “not more of the same.”

  88. paulie Post author

    By the way, another accuser has come out against Roy Moore. I only caught the tail end of it but it sounds like she was left black and blue, which does not sound like consent to me. But I haven’t heard the whole story yet.

  89. Andy

    “Michael Chastain
    November 12, 2017 at 17:49
    Thanks for the suggestions Andy. I’ve taken notes and will spend more time researching these.”

    You are welcome. I’m glad to see that somebody is listening.

    “(1) Stop Top Two — I don’t know enough yet to have an opinion.”

    Top Two Primary is a terrible election law that has been passed in Washington and California. It lumps all candidates for an office into the same primary, so there could be several Democrats, several Republicans, several Libertarians, several Greens, and several other minor party and/ independent candidates, all running for the same office, in the same primary, and only the top two vote getters move on to the general election ballot. The top two vote getters are almost always the establishment Democrat and the establishment Republican, and sometimes, Top Two Primary has resulted in Democrat vs Democrat (like last year’s US Senate race in California), or Republican vs Republican, on the general election ballot. The version that passed in California eliminate write in votes (I’m not sure if the version in Washington allows for write in votes or not). Top Two Primary has been designed with the intent of making sure that minor party and independent candidates have a hard time getting on general election ballots. Since it has gone into effect in California, no minor party or independent candidate has appeared on a general election ballot for a partisan office (all city and county offices in CA are officially non-partisan), with the exception of the office of President, and that is only because presidential candidates have been exempted from Top Two Primary.

    Top Two Primary was put on the ballot for the 2016 election in South Dakota (the Libertarian Party even paid the petition circulators who were working on Top Two Primary to gather petition signatures for the Libertarian Party at the same time, and they did this knowingly, because I found out about it beforehand and alerted people in the LP before the deal was finalized, yet they continued with the deal anyway, and these people ended up doing a half ass job, and they actually abandoned the job and did not even bother to alert the Libertarian Party that they were doing so, which almost caused the LP to not qualify for the ballot in South Dakota, and the party would not have qualified, if not for a lawsuit which got the deadline moved to a later date, and if not for lucking out and finding a petition circulator who was willing to work on the drive in South Dakota for several months until it was finished), but fortunately, it got voted down. Now Top Two Primary is back in South Dakota.

    The people who are behind Top Two Primary want it to spread to every state, so they can eliminate minor party and independent candidates from general election ballots (and help prevent them from even being able to get their messages out, since many people do not pay attention to politics until after the primaries), and so the D and R establishment choice candidates have a better chance than they already have of winning primary elections. Top Two made the ballot in Arizona and Oregon a few years ago, but it got voted down. The people behind Top Two Primary have not given up. I have heard that they want to try it again in Arizona, and I’ve also heard about plans to get it on the ballot in Florida, Colorado, and some other states.

    Top Two Primary is like a cancer. It must be destroyed or else it will continue to spread.

    “(2) Frostproof FL city council — sounds good except they are in Florida. So I have to figure out if the Libertarian city council members in Frostproof are in the white supremacist faction.”

    Florida is a big state. Whenever you hear about controversies/drama/infighting in state affiliates, it is always a small group of people. I don’t think that either of the Libertarians who have been elected to the Frostproof City Council have anything to do with any of the drama that has happened in the LP of Florida over the last few years.

    “(3) ‘Libertarians running in winnable races’ — I am very interested in this. In 2018 I am contributing to Libertarians who have already won at least one race and are running again. A prior victory is a good sign that their current campaign may win.”

    There are at least a few Libertarians who are running in winnable races in every election, but the party generally puts no effort into helping these candidates, and party management generally does not even bother to let other party members know that these winnable races are even happening, so these candidates receive little support, which is why they generally lose.

    I have seen many examples of this over the years. Recently, there was a Libertarian running against a Democrat, with no other candidates on the ballot, in a special election for the Virginia House of Delegates (which is what they call the state legislature in Virginia). There was another candidate for the Virginia House of Delegates running in a three way race against a Democrat and a Green (as in no Republican in the race) in the recent general election in Virginia. Both LP candidates received little support and therefore predictably lost. These were certainly more winnable races than most races which LP candidates run.

    Back in 2008 in Pennsylvania, there was an LP candidate for the state legislature who were really motivated and making a good effort to run a real campaign. Gross mismanagement from LP national (I know the story, too much to get into for now) and the LP of PA not being on the ballot either, led to this candidate not getting enough valid petition signatures to qualify for the ballot. Most candidates would have just given up at this point, but this candidate continued to run as a write in candidate, and they ended up spending around $20,000 on their write in campaign, the majority of which was out of the candidate’s pocket, but some of which was fundraised by the candidate. This candidate, along with two campaign volunteers. did several weeks of door-to-door canvassing, and they knocked on every door in their district. They also made up professional looking campaign literature, which they left at every home in the district, and the campaign literature asked people to write in the name of the candidate. They also brought along voter registration forms for people whom they encountered who acted like they were interested, but who said that they were not registered to vote (for the people among them who were legally qualified to vote of course). This candidate also paid for signs, and I believe he paid for a few advertisements as well. He was in a three way race against a Democrat and a Republican, and he was running as a write in candidate, yet he still managed to get 17% of the vote, which is a lot for a write in candidate. Just imagine how many more votes he could have gotten had he actually been on the ballot (which he could have easily been, had it not been for the gross mismanagement issues from the LP). I’m not saying that the guy would have won for sure, but he did very well for a write in candidate in a three way race against a D and an R, so I don’t think that it is unrealistic to say that he might have been able to win if LP mismanagement had not caused his petition drive to fail, and if he had received more support from LP members.

    There was also a Libertarian who was in a two way race for the state legislature in Colorado a few years ago (against either a D or an R), and that Libertarian in South Carolina who was in a two way race for a seat in the state legislature against an independent (some kind of candidate filing paperwork snafu led to the D’s and the R’s not having a candidate for this office) who came very close to winning, but who came up short against the independent candidate (I think it came out to 49% for the Libertarian and 51% for the independent). There was a Libertarian who was running for the state legislature in Illinois in 2012 who would have been on the ballot in a winnable race against an unpopular one term Democrat with no Republican in the race, but a screw up with the candidate’s petition drive led to them not making the ballot (I know the story on this one too, but it is too much to get into now).

    “If I could distinguish winnable candidates from paper candidates, then I would contribute more to winnable candidates in their first race, too.”

    I think that the problem is that nobody from LP national is bothering to look for winnable races, and alert the membership about them, and the same goes with the state parties. There is a lack of communication, and a lack of focus on actually winning anything.

    The Libertarian Party has a lot of people who are good at philosophy, but they are not good at all when it comes to things like strategy, marketing, and doing the other things that it takes to achieve success.

    LP dues paying membership right now is down to around what it was in the mid 1990’s, and since US population has increased since then, on a ration scale as compared to population, dues paying membership is less than what it was in the mid 1990’s.

    The number of elected Libertarians prior to the election held earlier this week was 159 the last time I counted. A few more people recently got elected to various offices this past Tuesday, so now the number is probably a little higher than that, but it is still far less than the over 600 Libertarian office holders that the party had back in 2003.

    The LP has not elected anyone to a seat in a state legislature since 2000, which happened in New Hampshire, but this person ended up switching to Republican a few months into their term. The last time the Libertarian Party elected anyone to a seat in a state legislature where the person elected actually served out their term as a Libertarian was also in New Hampshire, and it was back around either 1996 or 1998, which was 19-21 years ago. This is pretty pathetic.

    “(4) Sherriff in a low population county — I don’t know enough yet to have an opinion.”

    Check out this video.

    Libertarians should elect a Sheriff and implement the Deputize Em Plan

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwGXTffZmls&t=219s

  90. Andy

    Michael Chastain said: “(5) Ballot access — I’m interested in this, and also disconcerted by how bad some of the LP drives are. They should be better after 40 years of practice.”

    I have been blowing this whistle about this for years, and hardly anybody has even tried to do anything to make any improvements. Thankfully, Ken Moellman has actually made some improvements in some areas recently, but the party still has a long way to go.

    “(6) Candidates who are working hard to (a) get publicity, (b) run real campaigns, and (c) get ballot access: I’m interested in this. I’ve already donated to Larry Sharpe and am looking into donating more. I’m particularly interested in (c).”

    Sharpe has apparently already raised $100,000, which I have never heard of an LP candidate for Governor raising that much this long before an election. He’s also already campaigning and he’s already gotten some media coverage. These are good signs.

    “Also from another comment:

    (7) Petition lawsuits. I’m interested, but wary.”

    Lawsuits like this have already been won for our side around the country. There was a lawsuit over this in Nebraska back in 2006 called Groene v Seng that our side won. The lawsuit was filed by a ballot initiative proponent whose petition circulators were being run out of multiple locations that carried public foot traffic while they were trying to gather signatures. This petition drive likely would have failed if the proponent had not successfully gotten a court injunction that got the police to stop running petition circulators out of these locations. The initiative proponent won the lawsuit, and he received a $100,000 settlement. This ruling helped future petition drives as it led to less instances of petition circulators getting run out of public venues.

    I can tell you that there were three free speech lawsuits in Ohio where the free speech side won, and these victories (none of these lawsuits were filed by the LP) have greatly aided the LP of Ohio petition drive that is happening right now. If not for those victories, the LP of Ohio petition drive would be further behind right now.

    There are many good opportunities for lawsuits like this, some of which even have video evidence, where the party could greatly benefit, yet the LP does nothing, and continues to face the same problems over and over again.

    “I’m also interested in ballot propositions. Carla Howell in Massachussetts got a lot of votes to repeal the income tax. Those propositions gave her recognition for a US Senate run, where she got 12% in a three-way race. That’s good work!”

    I agree that ballot initiatives can be a great tool, and I think that it is great that Carla Howell put End the State Income Tax on the Massachusetts ballot twice, and Reduce the State Sales Tax on the Massachusetts ballot once, even though none of them passed (although she came within 5-6% of winning in 2002), however, your timeline is wrong.

    Carla ran for US Senate in 2000. That was when she got 12% of the vote, which was in large part because the Republicans ran a candidate who was not widely supported by the Republican Party in Massachusetts.

    Carla put the End the State Income Tax issue on the ballot in 2002, which is the same year that she ran for Governor. Although it was a valiant effort, she only got like 2% of the vote for Governor. This was in part because Green Party candidate Jill Stein (who later went on to run for President as the Green Party’s candidate in 2012 and 2016) was in the race, along with Republican Mitt Romney, and whoever the Democrats ran. Carla did get into the gubernatorial debate with Romney and the Democrat, but so did Jill Stein. I don’t know if anyone supporting Romney funneled any money to Stein, but I know that there were accusations that Stein was getting pumped up more than normal to siphon votes and attention away from Carla. Another factor at play here was that the LP of Massachusetts ran a lot of candidates (relatively speaking) that year, and since the LP of Massachusetts had major party status that year, they had to petition to get on the ballot under the major party candidate guidelines, which is actually more difficult than it is to get on the ballot under the minor party and independent candidate guidelines in MA, as the signature requirements are the same, but while any registered voter can sign to place a minor party or independent candidate on the MA ballot, only a voter who is registered under the same party party banner of the candidate (in this case, registered Libertarians), or voters who are not registered under a party banner (which is known in MA as being registered Unenrolled), can sign the petitions. Also, the petition signature gathering period for getting on the ballot as a major party candidate (and once again, at the time, the LP of MA had major party status) is earlier in the year, than is the petitioning period to get on as a minor party or independent candidate, which has a deadline of August 1st, so this means that a lot of the petitioning to get on as a major party candidate has to be done when the weather is cold, which makes it more difficult. So although their effort in putting the End the Income Tax initiative, and getting multiple candidates on the ballot (Michael Cloud got on for US Senate against John Kerry, and there was no Republican in the race, so he got a higher than usual vote total for a Libertarian Party candidate for US Senate), depleted a lot of their resources. I think that Carla also got slagged in the media, and did not have enough resources to get her say out to the extent that her opponents did when it came to slagging her.

    I still think that ballot initiatives and referendums are tools that Libertarians should use more frequently, and I have been saying for years that more Libertarians ought to get involved in filing them. I think that part of the reason that some of these marijuana initiatives that have come out have been so watered down (from a libertarian perspective) is being Libertarians are not the ones writing them.

    There are several issues that I’d like to get on the ballot somewhere, especially jury nullification. Jury nullification has only been put on the ballot one time, and that was done by a Libertarian in South Dakota back in 2002, and, since he did not have the resources to run an effective campaign, it got slammed by the political establishment, and got voted down, and had no lasting effect. I believe that a more effectively run, and better financed, Jury Nullification ballot initiative campaign could have be big impact, because even if it does not pass, it would get the idea out there to the public, which would make it much harder for the government to prosecute people for victimless crimes (the initiative would just require government prosecutors and judges to make sure jurors are informed about their right of nullification, and to get rid of the voir dire process that eliminates free thinking people from serving on juries).

    Another initiative I’d like to get on the ballot is JAIL for Judges, which stands for Judicial Accountability Initiative Law. This would create a citizens panel/Grand Jury, that would review the conduct of judges, and could remove them from office, and possibly charge them with criminal offenses, if they violate people’s rights. This effort was started up by a guy in California who was trying to get this on the ballot in a bunch of states several years back. He was only able to get it on the ballot in one state, South Dakota, which happened in 2006. It suffered the same fate as the Jury Nullification Initiative. I heard that JAIL for Judges was very popular when it was gathering petition signatures to get on the ballot, but the establishment in South Dakota (the politicians, the judges, the police union, the prison guard union, and the trail lawyers), ran a smear campaign against it, and the JAIL for Judges campaign did not have the money to counteract the smear campaign, so it lost at the polls.

  91. Andy

    “Tony From Long Island
    November 13, 2017 at 16:36
    Look up these words:

    1) Succinct
    2) Concise”

    Look this up:

    Go fuck yourself.

  92. Tony From Long Island

    Frostproof, Florida has a population of 3,000. They’re really an incorporated city?

  93. paulie Post author

    Look up these words:

    1) Succinct
    2) Concise”

    Look this up:

    Go fuck yourself.

    Good job! That’s a good example of succinct and concise.

    🙂

  94. Tony From Long Island

    Andy made me actually laugh out loud.

    I looked it up.

    Interesting instructions.

  95. George Phillies

    “… the Republicans ran a candidate who was not widely supported by the Republican Party in Massachusetts…”

    To be precise, the Republicans sued to get him off the ballot. They failed. The grounds were that in order to read the ballot paper back side,you had to flip it top to bottom rather than left to right.

  96. George Phillies

    Let me try explaining that some more. The candidate had printed nominating papers and collected signatures on them. The question was the orientation of the reverse side of the nominating paper relative to the front side, which the Republicans claimed would confuse voters.

  97. Andy

    That is an idiotic reason for a candidate to be removed from the ballot. I am glad that the candidate won that, even though him not being on the ballot would have meant more votes for Carla (although I still do not think she would have beaten Ted Kennedy), because it would have set a terrible precedent.

  98. Michael Chastain

    Andy:

    Thanks for the correction on Howell’s timeline. The dates are right there in Ballotpedia but I misread them.

    I did hear about Terry Hurst for Virginia delegate, 2017, via direct mail (US mail), solicitation, of all things. I sent him a small amount of money. I see that he got 15% in a two-way race. Not bad but not really good either.

    Hurst raised $4,000 through 2017-10-26 (per Virginia BoE). Jerrauld Jones, (D), raised $285,000 through 2017-10-26. You mentioned this as a winnable race, but I have to disagree. Maybe it’s somewhat less unwinnable than most Libertarian races.

    I’d really like to see case studies drawn from the Libertarian Party’s forty five years of history. Also for candidates of other minor parties such as Gayle McLaughlin (Green) in Richmond, California.

    I looked for Larry Sharpe’s records at NY Board of Elections, but their database server is down at the moment.

    I do have some hope for Staff at National. The last two people they hired, Cara Schulz and Apollo Pazell, have both won local elections. I’m very cheered at that.

  99. Andy

    Michael, the race in Virginia to which I was referring was not the one you mentioned. Even so, the one you mentioned is still more winnable than a lot of races that Libertarians enter.

  100. Chuck Moulton

    Michael Chastain wrote:

    If I could distinguish winnable candidates from paper candidates, then I would contribute more to winnable candidates in their first race, too.

    Michael,

    I have (and had) a plan to win a lot of races in Pennsylvania. Unfortunately, this election cycle there was not enough support to make it happen. Not enough volunteers, not enough money, and not enough infrastructure. National got us the voter registration database we needed, but by the time it arrived we only had 2 weeks to use it instead of 4 months. We will still use it for massive recruitment of state rep candidates (much less likely to win) this coming year.

    I’d like to try again in 2019. If you want to support winnable races, please call me sometime at 215-768-6812 and I’ll walk you through the idea.

  101. Just Some Random Guy

    Look this up:

    Go fuck yourself.

    My dictionary states:

    “an exclamation expressing anger or contempt for, or rejection of, someone.”

  102. Nicholas Hensley

    The Roy Moore allegations aren’t exactly new. A lot of the locals knew about them and talked about them. The culture of the south however kept it buried…until now.

  103. William Saturn

    “A lot of the locals knew about them and talked about them.”

    I’m not buying this. Moore has been a high profile individual in Alabama for decades. If this was truly something many people knew about, it would have been reported before now.

    The establishment is pulling out all the stops to prevent someone from outside their club from becoming Senator. It’s funny how all the GOPe Senators come so forcefully against Moore (with Senator Cruz wanting criminal prosecution), yet remain silent about the (more recent) allegations against George H.W. Bush.

  104. paulie Post author

    I’m not buying this. Moore has been a high profile individual in Alabama for decades. If this was truly something many people knew about, it would have been reported before now.

    Harvey Weinstein was a high profile individual in the entertainment industry for decades. So what? The women accusing Moore are Trump voters. They told dozens of people over the years who were also interviewed. They are going on the record despite living in a community where Moore is revered and where they are and will continue to get significant backlash as a result. People working in the DA’s office in Etowah county report that Moore dating teenagers when he was in his 30s and hanging around malls, high school football games and other teen hangouts to pick them up was common knowledge.

    He signed the one girl’s yearbook, even putting down his title as DA. There are many more women who are not coming forward, but some of them may yet come forward before the election.

    As can be seen from the latest accusation yesterday, on the record, in front of cameras and willing to testify in court if needed, he did use non-consenting means even if you believe 14 year olds can give meaningful consent. Chances are very high that was far from the only time. It’s highly likely that it was part of a long standing pattern of using force and intimidation against teenage girls.

    He is a sick fuck. He has ruined many women’s lives. He can and should be stopped at the ballot box, but failing that he should be immediately expelled from the Senate. The laws in Alabama changed in 1985 making the types of crimes he routinely committed have no statute of limitations. Before that it was 3 years. So if any of his victims from 1982 or later step forward he could still be prosecuted and imprisoned. I hope that happens. Hopefully he will spend his last years and die in prison.

    It’s funny how all the GOPe Senators come so forcefully against Moore (with Senator Cruz wanting criminal prosecution), yet remain silent about the (more recent) allegations against George H.W. Bush.

    Pappy Bush is an old man who is not running for anything, and as far as I know he never assaulted any teenage girls or tried to orally rape anyone – at least as far as anything that has come out so far. Moore did. Moore was a sexual predator and that’s no exaggeration. By his own words he didn’t “generally” date teenage girls when he was in his 30s but when he did he claims he always asked their mothers. That contradicts the testimony of the women who have come forward so far, that he routinely sneaked around and used deception to avoid their parents, such as telling the 14 year old’s mother that he would give her a ride so she wouldn’t have to listen to her own child custody case in court, picking girls up around the corner from their house, etc.

  105. Tony From Long Island

    Paulie:

    The laws in Alabama changed in 1985 making the types of crimes he routinely committed have no statute of limitations. Before that it was 3 years. So if any of his victims from 1982 or later step forward he could still be prosecuted and imprisoned. I hope that happens. Hopefully he will spend his last years and die in prison.

    Changes to statute of limitations can not be retroactive. The Supreme Court has ruled that (and we know how much you love Supreme Court precedent 😛 ). He would have had to have done something after the statute of limitations was changed to be prosecutable now.

    It also depends on how it’s written. When New York changed its SOL law, it was only for B-level felonies like Rape in the 1st degree, not all sex crimes. Alabama may have done similar. I’d have to read it.

    If I recall correctly, the SCOTUS case dealt with California, which had changed its SOL law and then prosecuted a priest for stuff he did in the 1970’s. Jeopardy attaches once the statute of limitations runs out.

  106. dL

    Changes to statute of limitations can not be retroactive.

    I believe the retroactive violation applies to an expiration of a previously existing limitations period. So, Pauli is correct in this instance(>=1982). However, is a bit disturbing reading him cheerlead the awesome prosecutorial power of the State to go after political enemies.

  107. paulie Post author

    Of course not. It’s about his own abuse of power, not abusing power to go after him. It’s about justice for all the people he hurt who felt marginalized and powerless for decades as a result. If we had a restitution based system of justice that may have been better, but as it is this is the only chance he will ever have to answer for any of his crimes.

    Moore is all about abusing power, whether it’s abusing the trust his DA office gave him to gain access to 14 year old girls, telling victims that no one will ever believe them because they are just children and he is the DA, or abusing his office in ways that got him removed from the bench twice. He has a lifetime of abusing his positions and ruining people’s lives.

    Being a political enemy is the least of it. I’m just hoping he’s called to justice for some of what he has done, in whatever way possible. In reality, it’s not likely. The reality is that the overwhelming majority of his victims have not and will not speak up. The chances that someone from 1982 on will step forward are slim. The chances that enough evidence to prove a case in court will have survived all those years is even slimmer. Then you have to get past an Alabama jury. So, I’m almost certainly dreaming about any justice for Moore’s victims.

  108. dL

    Harvey Weinstein was a high profile individual in the entertainment industry for decades. So what? The women accusing Moore are Trump voters.

    Quite a bit of the celebrity sex stuff now being reported had been “reported” for years in the trade publications as rumors. But no names attached…though if you were an “insider,” you probably knew who the unnamed references referred to.

    Often, there is a “collective action” problem with crossing over from rumor to publication. The expected punishment/backlash usually exceeds the expected benefit when it comes to exposing people in power. Unless, of course, the dam breaks. Roy Moore got caught in the dam break triggered by Harvey Weinstein. It’s a phenomenon quite similar to the public choice problem of revolution.

  109. dL

    Of course not. It’s about his own abuse of power, not abusing power to go after him.

    Retroactive extensions of statute of limitations is a cannon with a wide, indiscriminate aim. A liberal view of criminal justice is that is better that 100 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man be condemned.

  110. Tony From Long Island

    dL

    I believe the retroactive violation applies to an expiration of a previously existing limitations period. So, Pauli is correct in this instance(>=1982).

    I would have to do some reading, but I am of the opinion that you are incorrect.

    People can only be charged with crimes using the laws in place the day the crime was committed.

    Although my particular situation did not involve a statute of limitation, the sentence for the offenses I was convicted of had changed by the time I was sentenced. The prosecutors tried to use the new sentences. They could not do so.

  111. dL

    I would have to do some reading, but I am of the opinion that you are incorrect.

    Well, if it is Stogner v. California you are referring to, then I believe I am correct.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stogner_v._California

    The Supreme Court upheld the trial court’s ruling that the law was a violation of the ex post facto clause of the constitution by a split 5–4 decision. The Supreme Court held that “a law enacted after expiration of a previously applicable limitations period violates the Ex Post Facto Clause when it is applied to revive a previously time-barred prosecution

    Note: 5-4 liberal-conservative split decision. The cons(i.e, commies) voted for retroactive statute of limitations.

  112. paulie Post author

    I’m going by what the so called experts on TV said, but they may be wrong. They said Moore is liable for anything that was under 3 years at the time the statute was changed. But, another panel had someone say Strange is disqualified to run as a write-in, and he’s not; that sore loser law does not apply to write-ins. It’s almost certainly academic, because even though he almost certainly deserves a prosecution and conviction, the chances of one being mounted successfully are so remote that it’s not worth the extended tangent.

  113. Tony From Long Island

    dL

    The Supreme Court upheld the trial court’s ruling that the law was a violation of the ex post facto clause of the constitution by a split 5–4 decision. The Supreme Court held that “a law enacted after expiration of a previously applicable limitations period violates the Ex Post Facto Clause when it is applied to revive a previously time-barred prosecution

    Sorry Paulie, I just wanted to respond to this one. I enjoy the minutiae of criminal procedure law.

    dL, while you may still be right, this quote does not necessarily support you. In the Stogner case (which I do think is the one I was referring to), the SOL had completely ran out. They made a law extending it and the SCOTUS shot that down.

    In the hypothetical instance we are pondering here, the SOL for something happening in 1982 did not run out before they extended it in 1985 to last forever. It is distinguishable from Stogner. I still believe that my statement that people must be prosecuted using the laws in place at the time of the offense would apply.

    Unfortunately, I do not have the time here at work to do the necessary research. I will try to print out Stogner and read it at home and see what cases they cite.

    Interesting. I love this stuff 🙂

  114. DJ

    ‘Nothing about it felt right’: More than 50 people describe sexual harassment on Capitol Hill

    In an environment with “so many young women,” said one ex-House aide, the men “have no self-control.” “Amongst ourselves, we know,” a former Senate staffer said of the lawmakers with the worst reputations. And sometimes, the sexual advances from members of Congress or senior aides are reciprocated in the hopes of advancing one’s career — what one political veteran bluntly referred to as a “sex trade on Capitol Hill.”

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/14/politics/sexual-harassment-congress/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3A+CNN+-+Top+Stories%29

  115. Just Some Random Guy

    It’s funny how all the GOPe Senators come so forcefully against Moore (with Senator Cruz wanting criminal prosecution), yet remain silent about the (more recent) allegations against George H.W. Bush.

    Moore is actually relevant and is running for office. George H.W. Bush has been irrelevant for decades in the political world. Until the recent allegations, a lot of people probably forgot he was even alive.

  116. dL

    dL, while you may still be right, this quote does not necessarily support you. In the Stogner case (which I do think is the one I was referring to), the SOL had completely ran out. They made a law extending it and the SCOTUS shot that down.

    well, yeah, that is exactly what I was referring to. Theoretically, I suppose, one could go after Moore for anything that was done within the old statute of limitations when the new law was passed that revoked any statute of limitations for the crime in question. So, any sexual assault on a minor in AL after 1982. However, I am against that type of thing. There should be very few crimes that fall outside of scope of a reasonable expiration period for criminal prosecution. 1st degree murder and war crimes are the only ones that should be exempt from such a limitation within the criminal justice system.

  117. DJ

    George H.W. Bush has been irrelevant for decades in the political world. Until the recent allegations, a lot of people probably forgot he was even alive.
    ………

    LOL, so that makes it worth not visiting. Maybe that’s why the press is ignoring Bill Clinton’s indiscretions while in office (both offices LOL)…. well, that and the fact he (and his witch of a wife) is a team player.
    The press, and the elected establishment is just upset. Fucking morons.
    And no, I’m not a Republican, but ALL these sanctimonious jerks need to clean their own backyard before telling others their’s is dirty.

  118. paulie Post author

    Which of those people is accused of attempted oral rape against a 16 year old, now testifying on the record and willing to testify under oath, with multiple corroborating hearsay witnesses to testify she told them years ago, and 4 other women corroborating that he pursued them when they were teens and 30 plus others who say they told them years ago? Which ones were banned from the local mall because they kept harassing local teen girls who were hanging out there, as Moore was?

  119. DJ

    Which of those people is accused of attempted oral rape against a 16 year old, now testifying on the record and willing to testify under oath, with multiple corroborating hearsay witnesses to testify she told them years ago, and 4 other women corroborating that he pursued them when they were teens and 30 plus others who say they told them years ago? Which ones were banned from the local mall because they kept harassing local teen girls who were hanging out there, as Moore was?
    …………..

    LOL… I know paulie, they’re all as pure as the driven snow, especially Bill. BTW, accused is not convicted, unless of course it’s someone the leftist don’t like. We’ll see about the testifying IF and when the allegations bring charges. I guess it depends on what is means. Right?! Or going on TV and looking the camera in the eye and saying I did not have sexual relations with that woman. Right?!
    LOL…. the establishment appreciates your undying devotion paulie.

    They’re all a bunch of sanctimonious jerks, no better than the accused.

  120. dL

    The press, and the elected establishment is just upset. Fucking morons.

    I think its more of a demonstration of the moral relativism of evangelical social conservatism…what it gets upset about and what it doesn’t get upset about.

  121. paulie Post author

    I didn’t say they were pure, nor did I mean it or imply it. I notice you did not answer the question. The answer is:

    None of them molested 14 year olds or attempted oral rape against 16 year olds, got banned from the local mall etc.

    accused is not convicted

    And election to office is not the same sort of right as keeping one’s freedom. Convicted in a court of law is not the same standard that voters should have to judge candidates by. If OJ Simpson ran for office after he was found not guilty of murder, and before he got in other legal trouble, do you think some people may have still held the possibility he may have actually been guilty against him?

    We’ll see about the testifying IF and when the allegations bring charges.

    Incorrect. She is also offering to testify to Senate Ethics Committee so the Senate is prepared to expel Moore if and when he is seated.

    the establishment appreciates your undying devotion

    Fuck the establishment, and fuck the evil clowns you support even more. It’s hard to be worse than the establishment but they’ve managed.

    no better than the accused

    Bullshit, and refer to prior questions as to why.

  122. paulie Post author

    moral relativism of evangelical social conservatism…

    They are the worst sort of degenerates, with Moore being a perfect example.

  123. dL

    with Moore being a perfect example.

    I’m not exactly sure a former west point graduate, prosecutor and state judge qualifies as a political outsider. The guy has sucked at the teat of the state for his entire life. The only things he stands outside on would be human rationality and decency.

  124. dL

    I fully agree.

    Perhaps SNL should revive this skit. Baldwin, Carey…just need to find someone to play Bill O’Reilly.

  125. Luke

    “Anon-Tipper
    November 9, 2017 at 21:08
    tbh, At least splitting the vote and making sure Moore doesn’t win is a win for libertarians. It doesn’t look good for us that Rand endorsed him.”

    Even more true now that Rand Paul is literally the only Senator still endorsing Roy Moore.

  126. Tony From Long Island

    dL:

    Upon reading Stogner, it appears that you are correct. It’s a grey area and there’s not SCOTUS case that I noticed completely on point, but in Stogner they did state:

    “Even where courts have upheld extensions of unexpired statutes of limitations (extensions that our holding today does not affect), they have consistently distinguished situations where limitations periods have expired. Further, they have often done so by saying that extensions of existing limitations periods is not ex post facto . . . . . . ” Stogner v. California, 539 U.S. at 618 (2003)

    ————————————————————-
    I am 100% certain about the tenet that someone can only be prosecuted under the laws as they were the day of the offense. However, I guess that applies only to elements of a crime and sentences for. . . .

  127. paulie Post author

    I’ve never been a fan of Clinton. I left the Democrats over them nominating him 25 years ago. Why do you think I need to answer questions about Bill Clinton? As far as I know no children have stepped forward to accuse him of molesting them though, nor does he have any 16 year olds accusing him of attempted oral rape and he has not been banned from any shopping malls for creeping around a whole bunch of teenage girls. But yeah, he’s earned the name Slick Willie and then some. That doesn’t excuse Roy Moore one tiny little bit. I suspect Bill Clinton is done running for office. It’s less certain, but Hillary Clinton probably is too. Roy Moore is running right now. Let’s not deflect, shall we?

  128. dL

    LOL. Never mind paulie. Someone else brought up Bill Clinton for you since you didn’t respond to my questions.

    probably because he has no interest in your vapid whataboutism . If Clinton were to suddenly decide to run for public office, I imagine that stuff in his past would now become a pretty big issue. But he is not. The person in question who is running for public office is Roy Moore.

  129. dL

    I am 100% certain about the tenet that someone can only be prosecuted under the laws as they were the day of the offense. However, I guess that applies only to elements of a crime and sentences for. . . .

    I would never be certain of that tenet(being recognized) if you have a supreme court with a conservative majority…

  130. Tony From Long Island

    DJ is practicing a technique called “rationalization.” It’s one of the main pillars of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.

  131. dL

    I fully agree.

    evangelical social conservatism is baal worship. If the price of Roy Moore in political power is the discrediting of Christianity, they will pay it.

  132. paulie Post author

    Good news for Ron Bishop: Alabama NSGOP is threatening to excommunicate any members who mount a write-in run. So, if that money wants to find an outlet, Ron Bishop may be their best bet.

  133. Anon-Tipper

    “Even more true now that Rand Paul is literally the only Senator still endorsing Roy Moore.”

    Looks like he’s back to the senate too. I heard he once whined about libertarians hating him so much, no shit, you do stuff like this.

    “Good news for Ron Bishop: Alabama NSGOP is threatening to excommunicate any members who mount a write-in run. So, if that money wants to find an outlet, Ron Bishop may be their best bet.”

    Wow. Looks like national at least cut funding and support for him at least.

  134. DJ

    I’m not rationalizing anything, Tony, mainly because I don’t give a rats ass about any of the hypocrites in DC, I’m merely pointing out the bias of the leftist, here and in the media. Had Moore been a democrat this wouldn’t be such a big deal. But, since he’s a Republican he’s the devil incarnate, even though it could be argued they are ALL devil’s, including those on the left with Bill Clinton being an obvious, but let’s not forget Teddy boy who killed a girl. Yeah she was of age but she’s dead, and thankfully so is he, but, he remained an icon for gov’t leftist until he died. Get it? Died. Not killed by a drunk pretending to be a saint.

    Congressional talks on sex harassment boil with hypocrisy:

    http://www.gopusa.com/?p=33441?omhide=true

  135. Andy

    “Michael Chastain
    November 13, 2017 at 18:30
    Andy — okay, what race in Virginia were you referring to?”

    Libertarian Corey Fauconier was in a two way race in a special election to fill a vacancy against Democrat Jennifer McClellan several months ago.

    Fauconier made this rap video for Libertarian Party candidate Carl Loser in the 2015 election.

    Nice: Libertarian Theme by Sage Fauconier

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKpaAibwGSo

    I see a lot of marketing potential here.

  136. Tony From Long Island

    DJ: ” . . . . I’m not rationalizing anything, Tony, . . . . . ”

    Followed by an entire post of rationalizing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology)

    Rationalizing example #1) Comparing sexual behavior with someone 14 years of age with two consensual adults (Bubba & Monica)

    Rationalizing example #2) Comparing sexual behavior with someone 14 years of age with sexual harassment.

    I have no idea what the purpose of condemning Anthony Weiner is here. Has anyone ever defended him or rationalized his behavior? I don’t seem to recall.

    However, dozens and dozens of conservatives are defending and rationalizing the behavior of Roy Moore. This is the party that exercises zealous anger at sex offenders and attempts to pass any law ever proposed to deprive them of basic liberties. But Roy Moore is a “victim.” #sad.

  137. Andy

    “Michael Chastain
    November 13, 2017 at 18:30
    Andy — okay, what race in Virginia were you referring to?”

    Another one was in the general election that was recently held that had Libertarian Jake Crocker vs Green Party candidate Montigue Magruder vs Democrat Betsy Carr.

    Being that there was no Republican in the race, with more funding a good campaign plan, could tCrocker have gotten enough votes from Libertarians, independents, and Republicans, with the Democrat and Green splitting the leftist vote, to carry him to victory? I don’t know, but this was certainly closer to being a winnable race than races under which a lot of Libertarians run for office.

    The good thing about these state legislative races in Virginia is that they are held during a time period when most states are not having elections. Perhaps if enough Libertarians from around the country donated to one of these races maybe the Libertarian Party could win one of them. If this were to happen, it would probably be the biggest electoral accomplishment in the history of the LP.

    City/town and county offices are usually more winnable than a state legislature race, unless the city/town or county office is in a high population area (unless it is a small district in a high population area, as those could still winnable), but I think that races for seats in state legislatures can be winnable as well. The Libertarian Party did elect people to seats in the state legislatures in Alaska and New Hampshire in the past, and other minor parties (like the Green Party) and independent candidates have won seats in state legislatures since then, so I think that it can be done (the problem is that not enough people in the LP have been putting a proper focus on actually doing it).

    I don’t think that US House is a winnable race for Libertarian Party candidates, unless the candidate can raise a lot of money, then they might stand a chance, but I don’t think that there are many Libertarians out there who could do this. I read an article that said that in 2012, the average cost of winning a US House seat was $1.6 million, and that amount has likely increased since then. If a Libertarian Party candidate could spend say $2 million plus on a US House race, it might be winnable, although there may be a greater motivation for the establishment to rig the election if it looked like a Libertarian Party candidate had a legitimate chance of being elected to a US House seat.

    I don’t consider any statewide offices or citywide or countywide offices in high population areas to be winnable races. President is also obviously not a winnable race for Libertarians.

  138. paulie Post author

    (Roy Moore) has sucked at the teat of the state for his entire life.

    To be fair, he did work as an ambulance chasing attorney for a few months after law school, before deciding that work as a regime prosecutor was more his style. Since then, you are correct.

  139. paulie Post author

    DJ: ” . . . . I’m not rationalizing anything, Tony, . . . . . ”

    Followed by an entire post of rationalizing.

    I’m done wasting time on reading DJ’s comments anymore. I had unfortunately forgotten that I already made that conclusion about him months ago. I would recommend others not waste their time reading or especially responding to him as well.

    Rationalizing example #1) Comparing sexual behavior with someone 14 years of age with two consensual adults (Bubba & Monica)

    Rationalizing example #2) Comparing sexual behavior with someone 14 years of age with sexual harassment.

    Well that and kidnapping (he locked the car door so she could not get out) and attempted oral rape of a 16 year old. Plus whatever all he did that caused the local mall to ban him from entering.

  140. DJ

    Poor little leftist victims. Get their wittle feelins hurt and take their ball and go home. Poor wittle lefties.

    Fuckin hypocrfites. Just like your liberal brethren in the media and the Republican establishment….LOL

    Good, paulie, the less you and your little brother, Tony, comment the better I like it and the better off this site is. But, never fear Mr’s Pure as the driven snow, I’ll continue to post my opinions and articles that show your hypocrisy for what it is.

  141. paulie Post author

    http://www.timesdaily.com/news/state/no-precedent-for-write-in-candidacy/article_30f47409-9b43-52bb-b011-daf97bdc08ff.html

    There’s a second write-in running, an independent conservative named Mac Watson.

    http://www.newbernsj.com/opinion/20171113/thomas-knapp-election-2017—moore-you-know-

    Knapp gets it almost entirely right, except I don’t think there is anything especially suspicious about the timing. We’re having a “national moment” brought on by Weinstein, and Moore is running for a higher office.

    http://gearsofbiz.com/alabama-senate-write-in-candidates-say-roy-moore-was-unacceptable-before-allegations/194446

    Watson, the co-owner of Watsons’ Backyard Living in Auburn, described himself as a conservative who has voted Republican in the past, but wrote in independent candidate Evan McMullin in the 2016 presidential election.

  142. paulie Post author

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/14/roy-moore-alabama-law-rape-victims-judge

    Roy Moore challenged Alabama law that protects rape victims, documents reveal

    Cases were among 10 where Moore, as Alabama’s top judge, dissented from court’s majority view and sided with alleged offenders, Guardian review finds

    Among Moore’s 10 dissents was the case of David Pittman, who had pleaded guilty to the rape of a 12-year-old girl. Moore in September 2015 said that Pittman ought to have been allowed to present evidence to court indicating that the girl had been sexually active and had a sexually transmitted disease.

  143. Tony From Long Island

    In the world of political Triage, DJ is not worth saving.

    There are sometimes. . . just sometimes. . . . things that should not be partisan. For someone to scream about “leftists” in a thread about a conservative Bible thumper who had sexual contact with minors when he was in his 30’s is really the only proof we need that he’s just too far gone.

  144. paulie Post author

    DJ is best ignored. As for Moore, from the same Guardian article…

    – Eric Higdon, a daycare center intern convicted of raping a four-year-old boy and accused of assaulting several other young children. Moore in July 2015 said “sodomy is an abhorrent crime and should be strictly punished” but argued the evidence did not support a lower court’s finding that Higdon had assaulted a child using “forcible compulsion”.

    So if I understand that correctly, Moore’s position was that Higdon should be punished because he had anal sex (“sodomy”), but that the four year old consented so it wasn’t forcible compulsion.

    Apparently Moore had a pattern of dissenting to side with the defendant in rape and child abuse cases, but not other criminal matters.

  145. wolfefan

    If Moore wins, he will almost definitely be expelled with the enthusiastic support of GOP senators and President Trump. Why? Because then the Governor of Alabama would have the opportunity to appoint his replacement. Are there any Alabama politicians who are available for appointment who are also in a place where they are beleaguered and might want to get out of? Why yes- Jefferson Beauregard Sessions himself. He goes back to being Sen. Sessions, Pres. Trump appoints a new Atty. General who does not need to recuse himself from the collusion investigations, and voila! The end of the Mueller investigation.

  146. paulie Post author

    Except that 1) reportedly Sessions wants to stay as Attorney General 2) Senators may want to get assurances from a new AG nominee not to mess with the Mueller investigation. And all this is only if Moore wins. Reportedly he is being outspent 11-1 by Jones and the RNC and RNSC have pulled funding. The editorials are overwhelmingly against him, even Hannity is expressing serious doubts about him, and who knows if more accusers will step forward?

  147. paulie Post author

    Alabama’s other Senator, Richard Shelby, has now said he will probably write in a “good” candidate rather than vote for Moore. If the Alabama NSGOP is to be taken at their word that would make him ineligible for their endorsement for another term.

  148. paulie Post author

    This is the first public accusation of physical contact that happened after Moore was married.

    ….

    According to Johnson, he asked questions about her young daughters, including what color eyes they had and if they were as pretty as she was.

  149. paulie Post author

    There’s also a second new accuser in that story

    In 1982, Kelly Harrison Thorp was working as a hostess at the Red Lobster restaurant in Gadsden. She was 17 years old and a high school senior.

    One day Roy Moore came into the restaurant, and she recognized him.

    “He was a public figure in this small town,” she said of Moore, who at the time was in his early 30s and the deputy district attorney for Etowah County. Later that year he would mount an unsuccessful campaign for circuit court judge.

    Thorp said Moore asked her if she’d go out with him sometime.

    “I just kind of said, ‘Do you know how old I am?'” she recalled.

    “And he said, ‘Yeah. I go out with girls your age all the time.'”

    All of these women have other people who remember them telling them this years ago.

    One question often levied at the accusers is why they didn’t come forward publicly before now, a month away from the special election for Alabama senator. Moore has been a public and often controversial figure in Alabama politics for decades.

    It’s an issue both Johnson and Thorp wanted to address.

    Thorp said local women have not spoken publicly against Moore before now because he had power in town and in the state, and they didn’t think they would be believed.

    “Everybody knew it wouldn’t matter,” she said, “that he would get elected anyway because his supporters are never going to believe anything bad about him.”

    Johnson said the answer was even more simple.

    “It’s because somebody asked,” she said. “If anybody had asked, we would have told it. No one asked.”

  150. Luke

    Yeah but regardless of who you believe and who you don’t they were all adults. The same can’t be said of Roy Moore. He was a predator who was actually banned from his town’s mall for being a notorious lecher and creep. How sick and twisted do you have to be? And to think this is the same guy who was kicked off the bench twice, waved his wee-wee-weetle pistol around on stage in his Village People cowboy outfit, and ruled that a 4 year old boy was not forced into having sex and that the fact that a 12 year old girl was not a virgin prior to the rape should have been allowed as a defense in a rape trial. I guarantee we are just beginning to scratch the surface with this hypocritical moralizing sicko scumbag. People of Alabama please prove the stereotypes wrong, do not embarrass the state yet again while the world is watching!

  151. Thane Eichenauer

    paulie commented: “Reportedly he is being outspent 11-1 by Jones and the RNC and RNSC have pulled funding.”

    Yup. Moore is going to win. I’d vote for Ron Bishop but Roy Moore is going to be elected.

  152. Luke

    Chuck,

    “I’m no fan of Roy Moore at all, but the framing of this is way out of proportion to what actually happened. Everything was consensual, there was no sex, there was no fingering, and by the victims’ own reports he immediately stopped and drove them home when they asked him to. The media is trying to draw a false (and ridiculous) equivalence between this and the actual rapes carried out by other celebrities.”

    Everything was not consensual, Corfman was not of age to give meaningful consent and felt violated afterwards; and subsequently Nelson made it clear that he did not always stop when first asked. The most recent accuser just tonight said he grabbed her without asking first, although she at least was an adult, but even then he was asking creepy questions about whether her little daughters were as pretty as she was.

    “As for the paragraph I quoted above from Luke, I am appalled by all the “libertarians” who parade out “think of the children!!!” nonsense. If I had a daughter, would I be annoyed if she had sex with someone much older? Maybe.”

    I hope it’s only because you don’t have one that you can say such things.

    “I could also be annoyed if such a hypothetical daughter did drugs or drank alcohol or a litany of other things. But fundamentally such a daughter would be an independent person who ought to be able to make her own decisions.”

    At any age?

    “It is offensive to me that anyone would think any child should be a slave to her parents, removing all autonomy.”

    I don’t think a child should be a slave to her parents, but they do have more questionable judgment the younger they are and in almost all cases want to do things which they later regret. We don’t crawl out of the womb with the ability to rationally assess adult decisions. But the question isn’t whether the girls did anything wrong to the extent that they voluntarily dated 30-something Roy Moore, it’s whether he as a 30-something man in a position of power did something wrong in taking advantage of 14 and 16 year old girls.

    Likewise a person may not lose all ability to give consent if they are drunk, low IQ or somewhat mentally ill and it can be a questionable issue if they are too drunk, too young, too developmentally challenged or too mentally challenged to give informed consent; but it’s true that the more drunk, young, developmentally and/or mentally challenged someone is the less able they are to give informed consent, especially in the face of a big age and/or power differential. And not coincidentally it is reported that Roy Moore habitually bought alcohol for girls who were too young to legally drink while he was “dating” them, thus increasing that differential.

  153. Luke

    Chuck again

    “What I find annoying is 1) the repeated assertions by commenters here and in the media that Roy Moore did things not factually supported by any of the allegations in the article (like sex and fingering), ”

    OK, you have a point there. I initially speed read the Corfman account and misunderstood it. Nevertheless I am guessing that the natural tendency in these cases is to minimize what happened, so it’s quite likely that even the women who have stepped forward already have not fully told – or even acknowledged – everything that happened, and as we are starting to see, there were more girls than that. But let’s stick to what we know – you are correct.

    “2) the conflation with law and morality suggesting if he did something illegal that makes it immoral (and vice-versa),”

    No, I think what he did was immoral because it’s immoral, not because it’s illegal, and I don’t necessarily want to make it illegal just because it is immoral.

    ” and 3) the position of many self-identified libertarians that anyone under 18 has no agency (e.g., what the parents want or should want matters and the individual’s own decisions are irrelevant to any analysis of morality).”

    That’s not my position.

    “I entirely agree that Roy Moore is nuts and should not be elected to U.S. Senate (or any other office). However, if I lived in Alabama (which I did briefly, but haven’t for a decade), none of the allegations of consensual dating with these women would make me less or more likely to vote for him.”

    We’ll have to strongly disagree, except to the extent that the chances I would vote for him would be zero anyway so to that extent you are correct.

    “These media accounts are appeals to patriarchal, puritanical social mores, and I’m flabbergasted that any libertarian would pay them heed.”

    On the contrary, it is highly patriarchal societies in which older, adult men, typically ones with money and power, customarily marry very young girls, with the girls having little or no choice in the matter. It’s also in highly patriarchal (and hypocritically puritanical) societies that children who are molested pretty much never report it, even after they become adults, as such things are swept under the rug. It is only as society is becoming less patriarchal that we are getting increasing waves of victims coming forth and breaking the silence about men in power habitually abusing that power to abuse children, young adults and subordinates sexually.

  154. Chuck Moulton

    Luke,

    Subsequent allegations involve non-consensual conduct. The original allegations (which were all there were when I made that comment) did not.

    As for the rest of your drivel, it re-affirms what I noted about so-called “libertarians” who get downright authoritarian when it comes to the rights of those under the arbitrary age of 18. It’s too bad the LP removed the children’s rights plank from the platform. I am a proud life member of NYRA and a strong supporter of all rights to individual autonomy.

  155. Luke

    “The original allegations (which were all there were when I made that comment) did not.”

    I disagree. Corfman’s account includes significant elements of non-consent, and she was not old enough to give meaningful consent.

    “As for the rest of your drivel”

    Too bad you dismiss it so casually rather than answering questions. Would Corfman have been able to give meaningful informed consent at age 10? Age 4?

    ” it re-affirms what I noted about so-called “libertarians” who get downright authoritarian when it comes to the rights of those under the arbitrary age of 18.”

    I am not proposing any kind of punishment for anyone who was underage in the situation. I also don’t categorically claim that there is no consent under any circumstances until a bright line age of consent. I am saying he, as an adult with power, knowingly and deliberately used that power to abuse that power differential and gamed his advantage further with more or less borderline acts of force, giving alcohol to underage girls to loosen them up and blur their judgment even more, etc.

    Meanwhile new story breaking about accusers number 8 and 9. At least one of them is also alleging force, and describes it as scary.

  156. Chuck Moulton

    Luke wrote (11/15/2017 at 9:04 pm):

    I am not proposing any kind of punishment for anyone who was underage in the situation.

    More hogwash! It takes two to tango. When you ban one side of the equation, you ban the other.

    If the law said no one is allowed to sell strawberries to blacks (punishable by jail for the seller), the fact that blacks are not punished for purchasing strawberries is irrelevant. The law would effectively ban a mutually voluntary transaction, which would deprive blacks from access to strawberries they desired.

    You and your ilk believe individuals should have zero autonomy below an arbitrarily selected age. I find that view immoral, demeaning, and ridiculous. Your authoritarianism rests on the assumption that individuals are incapable of making rational decisions in their best interest (as evidenced by some example decisions society disapproves of); therefore, those decisions should be made by others who know better. I categorically reject that assumption.

    However, anyone using that logic should try applying it to other policy questions (how could someone rationally decide not to vaccinate a child? how could someone rationally decide to shoot heroin? how could someone rationally decide to carry guns around? how could someone rationally decide to use incandescent lightbulbs? they all most be crazy! daddy government knows better.) — the inevitable conclusion of that line of reasoning across all political areas is the complete removal of any individual choice whatsoever and the total subservience of individuals to state control, which “knows better”.

  157. Luke

    Thanks for knocking down the strawman of your own construction, Chuck, but I already told you explicitly that I do NOT believe this:

    “You and your ilk believe individuals should have zero autonomy below an arbitrarily selected age”

    That’s incorrect. Try reading what I wrote instead of dismissing it as hogwash and then misrepresenting it.

    I said “Likewise a person may not lose all ability to give consent if they are drunk, low IQ or somewhat mentally ill and it can be a questionable issue if they are too drunk, too young, too developmentally challenged or too mentally challenged to give informed consent; but it’s true that the more drunk, young, developmentally and/or mentally challenged someone is the less able they are to give informed consent, especially in the face of a big age and/or power differential. And not coincidentally it is reported that Roy Moore habitually bought alcohol for girls who were too young to legally drink while he was “dating” them, thus increasing that differential.”

    I then said

    That’s not my position. to you mischaracterizing my position earlier which you are still doing now.

    “If the law said no one is allowed to sell strawberries to blacks…”

    That would be a bad analogy. Being increasingly black is not an indicator of being increasingly less able to give informed consent. Being increasingly underage, increasingly drunk, increasingly low IQ or mentally ill is. That doesn’t mean that a bright line test is the best way to handle it.

    You have yet to say what your position is though. Can 10 year olds give meaningful informed consent to sex? 4 year olds?

    The slippery slope argument you try to introduce at the end is just a bizarre nonsequitur.

  158. George Phillies

    Out of curiosity, has anyone seen anything about how these two characters are likely to vote on the substantive issues before the Senate, or at least how they say they will vote? There seems to be little interest in this topic.

  159. paulie Post author

    I’m presuming all the candidates have issues sections on their sites and social media accounts that lay out their public policy positions. But when you have a loose cannon like Roy Moore on deck public policy positions fall in the shadow of his rabid rodeo clown implosion.

  160. Luke

    “Out of curiosity, has anyone seen anything about how these two characters are likely to vote on the substantive issues before the Senate, or at least how they say they will vote? ”

    I have read that Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy and the BTK killer were all Republicans. I think that’s way more important than their personal conduct, don’t you?

  161. Chuck Moulton

    As I’ve said before (in this very thread), I am against bright line rules and instead favor a rebuttable presumption of non-consent below the age of consent. I can’t imagine any scenario where that presumption could be overcome with respect to a 10 year old or a 4 year old. It may even make sense to have an age below which non-consent is irrebuttable, such as 13 or 12. I do not believe that no 17 year old or 16 year old or 15 year old or 14 year old is mature enough to give informed consent — based upon decades of observation of many mature teens and many immature adults. And I find it ridiculous that many people both in this thread and in the media recite the age “17” (or other ages) as if it is a bombshell fact that ends all discussion of morality or propriety.

    To address another frequent refrain in this thread and in the media: I do not see anything wrong whatsoever with large age gaps — based again on decades of observations of large age gaps. My parents were 20 years apart and my dad was my mom’s direct superior at work when they met (she left the department when they got married). They had a long loving relationship until my father passed away, without any of the abuse or control or manipulation that all of the commenters seem to assume is a given in boogie man age gap relationships. I think my uncle is more than a decade older than my aunt and my cousin is a decade younger than her husband. I have many married friends with large age disparities (at least 20). I’ve never seen a problem in any of those marriages — if anything, my divorced friends seem to be the ones who were very close in age. Anyone who sees a problem with such relationships apparently has very different life experience than I do. It really makes me wonder whether all of this venom comes from a lack of firsthand experience… like how many people thought gay relationships or interracial relationships were inherently evil because they didn’t know any gay people or have any black friends.

  162. Luke

    “As I’ve said before (in this very thread), I am against bright line rules and instead favor a rebuttable presumption of non-consent below the age of consent. I can’t imagine any scenario where that presumption could be overcome with respect to a 10 year old or a 4 year old. It may even make sense to have an age below which non-consent is irrebuttable, such as 13 or 12.”

    So despite all the hyperbole our position is pretty much the same on this.

    “To address another frequent refrain in this thread and in the media: I do not see anything wrong whatsoever with large age gaps — based again on decades of observations of large age gaps. My parents were 20 years apart”

    25 and 45 is one thing. 15 and 35 is quite another.

    “It really makes me wonder whether all of this venom comes from a lack of firsthand experience…”

    No. Let’s just leave it at that.

  163. dL

    Never fear lefties. John McSame is on your side too. LMFAO

    John McCain is supporting the libertarian in the race?

  164. Luke

    dL, you have to understand that in DJ’s addled mind actual libertarians (as opposed to paleo/altreich “libertarians”), liberals, leftists and the bipartisan establishment all get conflated. We’re all the enemy, whereas Trump, Roy Moore and the torch-bearing fascists in Charlottesville are all the good guys. It’s all a bipolar world inside his poor beleaguered skull.

  165. dL

    As I’ve said before (in this very thread), I am against bright line rules and instead favor a rebuttable presumption of non-consent below the age of consent.

    Yes, the libertarian position should be opposed to arbitrary age of consent laws. There is age of consent for sex, photo depiction of sex, texting sex, marriage, driving, buying smokes, alcohol…etc. And they all differ. And they differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. And anyone familiar with history is certainly aware that “consensus” RE: a proper age of consent has changed throughout history. In the past, the common law age in the west was much lower, 10-12 years of age. Industrialization and mass communication has upped that “consensus” to 16 or 18.

    Prior to the era of zero tolerance, my experience was that underage sex was generally tolerated if the age grouping was roughly the same. Eyebrows might be raised if the girl was hovering at 16 or below and the dude was well into his 20s. If the girl was hovering at 15 or below and the dude was in his 20s, then the dude was gambling w/ a statutory rape charge(instigated by the girl’s parents when they found out). Dudes in their 30s targeting middle school teen girls? Never heard of that, other than perhaps as a lead story on the local news.

    The thing about Roy Moore when this story first broke is that his defense of actions was more off-putting than the accounts of the actions themselves. But now more stuff has come out. Stuff like Moore being banned from the town mall for harassing teen girls. LOL. That shit is Chester the molester…ole Roy, the town pedophile. Back in the day, long before the advent of sex offender registries and the hysteria of cable news, social stigma(one more along the lines of “eww, gross” or snide mockery) was how this stuff was handled. I can see how ole Roy had a “reputation.”

    So, while I agree w/ Chuck’s position RE: age of consent laws, ole Roy Moore ain’t exactly the hill to climb vis a vis defending this position.

  166. dL

    dL, you have to understand that in DJ’s addled mind

    oh, I understand it. The ones who incessantly whine “cultural marxists” are the actual cultural marxists. That’s an old story…

  167. Luke

    So I largely agree with dL @ 00:22, contrary to Chuck Moulton’s mangling of my views on the subject. Well, at least having thoroughly pummeled that strawman he built up, Chuck had a nice comfy bed of straw to sleep on last night. I hope he wakes up feeling refreshed.

    In Moore news, Roy Moore’s then future and now current wife Kayla was a freshman and sophomore year high school classmate of Leigh Corfman’s. There is no indication how well they knew each other in the news story I read but I doubt it was a very big school so they most likely knew each other at least somewhat.

    Roy and Kayla Moore say they did not meet until she was well into her 20s, but maybe they actually met way back then? Or they could be telling the truth and it’s just a total coincidence that he ended up with a woman from the very same age group that he was “dating”/stalking when they were in high school and he was in his 30s. Perhaps he is just a connoisseur of that particular vintage, as opposed to the more common pattern of older men who are into high school girls, of moving on to the new crop of middle school graduates as the older ones ages out.

  168. Tony From Long Island

    George Phillies

    Out of curiosity, has anyone seen anything about how these two characters are likely to vote on the substantive issues before the Senate, or at least how they say they will vote? There seems to be little interest in this topic.

    Yeah! Who cares that Roy Moore is a despicable human being – bereft of any redeeming qualities. If he’s against the “democrat party” socialist and globalist agenda, it shouldn’t matter!!!

    *sigh*

    His position on ANY issue is completely irrelevant right now. Don’t you have ANY standards?

  169. George Phillies

    So you would not be concerned if the other guy is an alt-riot neonazi, a Maoist, or whatever? Yes, I do have standards, which makes one of us. Also, it is likely that one of these characters will be elected, so it is of some interest to learn which pig in a poke voters on each side are going to give us?

  170. George Phillies

    “I have read that Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy and the BTK killer were all Republicans. I think that’s way more important than their personal conduct, don’t you?”

    Of course, Republicans and their policies did kill close to a million Iraqis. Some fo us view that as a negative feature of supporting Republicans.

  171. dL

    Yeah! Who cares that Roy Moore is a despicable human being – bereft of any redeeming qualities.

    FYI: Ignoring the abhorrent flaws while enshrining the person is the modus operandi of the “great men of democracy and history.”

    If he’s against the “democrat party” socialist and globalist agenda, it shouldn’t matter!!!

    I’m not aware that Phillies is an Alex Jones devotee…

    But to answer Phillies question, here:

    https://dougjonesforsenate.com/priorities/

    https://www.roymoore.org/Positions/

    https://ron-lpalabama.nationbuilder.com/issues

    Moore is a strict constitutionalist, except when he is not. For lower taxes, except when he is not. For freedom of worship, except when he is not. For golden rule in foreign policy, except when he is not.

    Jones appears to a standard democrat w/ an apparent criminal justice reform bent.

    Bishop appears to be a typical libertarian on the issues.

  172. DJ

    LOL….. my brain is addled but y’all’s isn’t? I’m not the one playing the politics of personality game. That would be y’all. It’s been perfected by leftists, on both sides of the aisle, and John McSame is an icon in that regard.

    Like I stated weeks ago; you people are the epitome of why I refuse ANY party association.
    You are just like Republicans and Democrats with your holier than thou bullshit. If an outsider (which I am) came here by accident (which I did) and read all your sanctimonious posts (which I have) I sincerely doubt they’d be rushing to sign up (I won’t) LOL. Anecdotal, absolutely, but, justified, not rationalized, Toni.

    I don’t understand the politics of personality. But, I’m addled. LOL….. can one of you (or all of you) explain that to me in a manner my addled brain can handle? After all, doesn’t the true intellectual make the complicated simple?

    Would it be too much trouble to post policy beliefs of the accused (regardless of which side he/she is on) to inform. It’s just about guaranteed if Moore doesn’t win the Democrat will, and from what I’ve read he is pretty well establishment status quo. Is that what libertarian means? Or Libertarian? Status quo, give the election to a Democrat, simply because you don’t approve of a personality? Guilty until proven innocent? How magnanimous. If personality has to be the decider I’d believe if Mitch McConnell is against him, and Paul Ryan he can’t be all bad…. except when all this was going on he was a Democrat, right? Is that what the opposers don’t like about him? Is that what y’all don’t like about him? Not from what I’ve seen, here, or in the media. From what I’ve seen it’s about allegations. Period. I’ve posted about actual, proven events and y’all ignore that and make fun of me? That tells me a lot about the “personality” of why I refuse to associate with ANY party; I refuse to have others make decisions for me about anything, especially things that will lead others to believe that I support bullshit, which is what y’all are shoveling, just like those you allegedly oppose….ROTFLMFAO.

  173. DJ

    The Truth Is What’s Most Important Here

    This also isn’t a new tactic. Particularly for the conservative right, moral and righteous indignation almost immediately kicks in after any accusation against a conservative, and Republicans are quick to distance themselves from anyone considered tainted. Such is Moore today. With quick retreat, we are not only encouraging future weaponizing of the unsubstantiated rumor mill, but we are also failing to be genuine conservatives and conserve the principle of fundamental fairness and truth-seeking.

    http://thefederalist.com/2017/11/16/shouldnt-convict-roy-moore-court-public-opinion-just-yet/

  174. Tony From Long Island

    I did not mean to imply that George P is a devotee of Alex Jones. I’m pretty sure he’s not.

    The words “democrat party” and “socialist globalist agenda” are pretty much common fare from any right-wing talk show host (or devotee).

    I inferred from George’s prior post that he was more concerned with Roy Moore’s position on issues than with his complete lack of character.

  175. Tony From Long Island

    Not sure what your point is. I don’t think many people who post here were big fans of Roy Moore even before this past week.

  176. paulie Post author

    Yeah! Who cares that Roy Moore is a despicable human being – bereft of any redeeming qualities. If he’s against the “democrat party” socialist and globalist agenda, it shouldn’t matter

    Well if it did matter, Roy Moore is a more extreme version of Trumpenrebublicanism mixed with theocracy and Doug Jones is a moderate Democrat. Ron Bishop is a guy who has run in Democratic primaries in the past, IIRC, but now is running as the write-in Libertarian.

  177. paulie Post author

    Not sure what your point is.

    Best thing to do is just skip over his comments. If you read one by accident, don’t respond. Anything else is a waste of time.

  178. DJ

    This whole thing reminds me of the movie Inherit the Wind. I recently watched the Jack Lemmon, George C. Scott version.

    I didn’t like Roy Moore’s actions when he was a judge. But, I’ve not even seen that discussed.

  179. dL

    Would it be too much trouble to post policy beliefs of the accused

    It’s a 5 second search on the modern internet. Nonetheless, I did post some links above.

    It’s just about guaranteed if Moore doesn’t win the Democrat will, and from what I’ve read he is pretty well establishment status quo. Is that what libertarian means?

    Well, I would hope libertarianism would inform one that the status quo vs Roy Moore is a false dilemma. Now if one is forced to make a “lesser of two evils” calculation under a presumption that the libertarian candidate can’t win, then my calculation would come up Doug Jones. I view a typical democrat w/ a criminal justice reform bent as a lesser evil than a religious extremist who, for example, rails against a threat of sharia law “overtaking America” but then then sends his attorney out to make a cultural muslim patriarchy defense for his old dating habits. Now if noting the shameless hypocrisy of that flim flam artist makes me a leftist, then so be it.

    However, it should be noted I do not subscribe to “lesser of two evils” arguments. If I had a vote in AL and had any inclination to vote, I would cast it for the libertarian candidate, regardless of any allegations against Roy Moore.

  180. paulie Post author

    Not sure what your point is. I don’t think many people who post here were big fans of Roy Moore even before this past week.

    I never could stand him, even before his first stint on the Alabama Supreme Court back when he was only flouting the rule of law in Etowah County in the 1990s.

  181. paulie Post author

    Well, I would hope libertarianism would inform one that the status quo vs Roy Moore is a false dilemma. Now if one is forced to make a “lesser of two evils” calculation under a presumption that the libertarian candidate can’t win, then my calculation would come up Doug Jones. I view a typical democrat w/ a criminal justice reform bent as a lesser evil than a religious extremist who, for example, rails against a threat of sharia law “overtaking America” but then then sends his attorney out to make a cultural muslim patriarchy defense for his old dating habits. Now if noting the shameless hypocrisy of that flim flam artist makes me a leftist, then so be it.

    However, it should be noted I do not subscribe to “lesser of two evils” arguments. If I had a vote in AL and had any inclination to vote, I would cast it for the libertarian candidate, regardless of any allegations against Roy Moore.

    Exactly.

  182. paulie Post author

    RCP Average is currently Moore +3. Turnout will matter, and Jones has a big money advantage to help steer turnout in the cities and the black belt. He also has a major TV and sign advertising campaign aimed mostly at the suburban/college educated audience which mostly went for Strange in the primary.

  183. Michael Chastain

    I just looked at McClellan vs Fauconier in Virginia.

    Jennifer McClellan raised $222,000. Cory Fauconier raised $4,700.

    The National party (or other outside contributors) could have spent $5,000 on Fauconier’s race and he still would have had a 20:1 disadvantage against a major party candidate. That is not at all winnable in my book.

  184. Michael Chastain

    Andy,

    In Carr for Delegate, Virginia, 2017, I found these amounts raised:

    $154,000 — betsy carr (democrat)
    $2,000 — montigue magruder (green)
    not available — jake crocker

    I could not find a candidate or a committee with the name “crocker” or even the name “jake”. I am looking here: http://cfreports.sbe.virginia.gov/

    I do agree with your estimate of $2,000,000 for a seat in Congress. As of 2017, I don’t think the LP can win any race for President/VP, governor, senate, or congress. And we would have a tough time in most state legislative races. As you’ve mentioned, LP has won state legislative races in Alaska and New Hampshire before. And as you’ve also mentioned, the LP was stronger back in those days then it is now.

    I’d like to see a state legislative candidate who has served on a town or local or county board, and who can raise $100,000 in campaign funds, and who can campaign full time. For 2018, so far I have found two candidates in that league: Jeff Hewitt and Laura Ebke.

  185. George Phillies

    “I have read that Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy and the BTK killer were all Republicans. I think that’s way more important than their personal conduct, don’t you?”

    If you are looking for filthily immoral people, look at Congress, which voted for war policies that killed a million people in Iraq. Look for the folks who say “we are at war with radical Islam”. That’s genocide, and perhaps at some point the advocates of that genocidal policy may find themselves at Nuremberg. It may be we can re-use the rope that was used in 1945, too.

  186. Michael Chastain

    Andy also mentioned that if LP Alabama had ballot access right now, Ron Bishop would be in a much stronger position. I agree. Regardless of whether Bishop’s campaign would be winnable, he could sure earn a lot of media right now if LP Alabama had ballot access.

    Alabama requires signatures equal to 3% of the last gubernatorial vote. That is 35,000 signatures right now. Stipulate a rate of $3 per valid signature (probably a low estimate). That is a $100,000 project.

    LP Alabama would have to sign up for some portion of that. Libertarian National Committee would have to sign up for some portion of that. And then other major donors would have to sign up for some portion.

    All that in order to get more media in the unusual event that the major parties are lopsided (we can see that in advance) and that the dominant major party candidate has a crippling scandal after it is too late to nominate someone else. We cannot see that second factor in advance, and I think it happens in only a few percent of races. In the past 40 years (about 600 races), I recall: Bob Torricelli, David Duke, and now Roy Moore. Any other cases?

    If LP Alabama or any other state party wants to sign up for a 30,000 signature ($100,000) project, and they have the strength to do their part and can line up support to finish the whole drive, that’s great. But being ready for a major party scandal like this is a low-probability benefit.

  187. paulie Post author

    Alabama requires signatures equal to 3% of the last gubernatorial vote. That is 35,000 signatures right now. Stipulate a rate of $3 per valid signature (probably a low estimate). That is a $100,000 project.

    You’re forgetting validity margin. We would need at least 50,000 signatures to get 35,000 valid, but since the state won’t give us a database (unless we pay them 30k) or check them until we have 35,000 and change raw, we may need 60,000 or 70,000. The later we start the more we would need since we would have less control of who we have to hire to get enough signatures in time and since we will be competing against projects elsewhere.

  188. paulie Post author

    I recall: Bob Torricelli, David Duke, and now Roy Moore. Any other cases?

    There have been others. For example I am remembering a case where the Republican nominee in Illinois was caught in a sex scandal, Obama beat Alan Keyes by a huge margin. The Republicans really scraped the bottom of the barrel to find Keyes as none of them wanted to step forward. There have been cases at the local level, such as iirc 2014 – I may have the year wrong – where we got in the high 40s for state legislature in Colorado and South Carolina. In CO, the Democrats were not running and the Republican was caught in a scandal. In SC, there were rules changes which caused the major party candidates to fail to qualify for the ballot and run as write-ins and the LP had a strong candidate. They literally needed a few hundred dollars to get the message out in the closing days and could not get anyone else to help them.

    But being ready for a major party scandal like this is a low-probability benefit.

    If we’re not prepared we can’t take advantage of it when it happens.

  189. Michael Chastain

    Paulie — you’re right. I just looked at New Hampshire campaign finance records for 2016.

    $600 — brandon phinney (raised $600, spent only $300)
    not found — stallcop
    not found — dyer

  190. DJ

    dL
    November 16, 2017 at 10:22

    Would it be too much trouble to post policy beliefs of the accused

    It’s a 5 second search on the modern internet. Nonetheless, I did post some links above.
    …………….

    Yet the argument here is still about personality.

  191. Michael Chastain

    Paulie — okay, I’ll grant you Obama vs Ryan, US Senate, Illinois, 2004. Ryan had a scandal and the Republicans replaced him with Keyes.

    As it happened, the Libertarian party had ballot access in that election.

    US SENATE, 2004, ILLINOIS
    70.0% Barack Obama (Democrat)
    27.0% Alan Keyes (Republican)
    1.6% Al Franzen (Independent)
    1.3% Jerry Kohn (Libertarian)

    Compare with two years earlier (no scandal)

    US SENATE, 2002, ILLINOIS
    60.3% Durbin (Democrat) (Incumbent)
    38.0% Durkin (Republican)
    1.6% Burgauer (Libertarian)

    In 2004, the combination of an open seat plus a scandal on the R side that resulted in replacement by a weak candidate … produced no gains at all for Libertarians, compared to 2002. R voters did not defect in droves to the L candidate.

    I did not forget validity margin. I stipulated a payment of $3 per *valid* signature not per *raw* signature. I’m basing this on information I’ve heard about payments in Ohio recently. Of course, you have seen a lot of data that I have not, so if you have different estimate of how much a *valid* signature costs these days, I’m listening.

    I’m interested in names and details in the South Carolina case. Can you dig those up?

    Strategically, if there are situations where $300 makes a difference, and if there are libertarian donors that have $300 in their misc fund, then it would be a good thing to connect those situation with those donors. I am actually here and posting under my full name to help make those connections.

    Paulie wrote: “If we’re not prepared we can’t take advantage of it when it happens.”

    I have to disagree (to be picky, I think your statement is true, but not important).

    We have to exercise a lot of triage in using our resources, both money and scarce volunteer talent. For $100,000 we could be ready in one state such as Alabama for the next Roy Moore, when it happens 100 years from now. Or we could be ready for THREE HUNDRED of the situations you alluded to in South Carolina, where $300 in publicity at the last minute would make a difference.

  192. Luke

    You would have to be a real degenerate with some serious mental issues to equate the accusations against Roy Moore with those against Al Franken at this stage. One woman has accused Franken of kissing her without permission, she was a full grown adult at the time, he is not denying it and has apologized. Multiple teenage girls at the time, are accusing Roy Moore of various degrees of sexual assault including attempted oral rape, and some were as young as 14. He was banned from the mall. “Like, OMG.” Moore has not acknowledged his actions much less expressed any remorse.

    As a judge, his attitude towards women and children carried over into his opinions. He dissented from the court majority and his own “law and order” stance repeatedly over rape shield laws. In one case he wanted the fact that a 12 year old girl had been sexually active prior to the rape to be used as a defense in a rape case. In another he ruled that a 4 year old boy who had been raped was a case of sodomy but not forcible compulsion. What’s the alternative, that the kid gave consent?

    To equate him with a single adult woman to whom Al Franken has apologized is beyond ridiculous. It shows how desparate Moore and his defenders are to grasp at any straws to deflect attention away from what a sick piece of shit he truly is.

  193. paulie Post author

    I did not forget validity margin. I stipulated a payment of $3 per *valid* signature not per *raw* signature. I’m basing this on information I’ve heard about payments in Ohio recently. Of course, you have seen a lot of data that I have not, so if you have different estimate of how much a *valid* signature costs these days, I’m listening.

    Ohio has been about 3.39 per valid I believe, which is unusually low. We had a long time to do Ohio, full access to the validity database, and a big chunk of the drive has been done by LP activists who work hard to make sure the signatures are valid. Another big chunk was done by a petition company that also had access to the validity database and “scrubbed” their work up to 75% valid by contract. In Alabama, we have no access to the validity database and no validity feedback at all until we are most of the way done, plus no way to break it down by petitioner even when we do get it. Plus we would have to get a larger percentage of signatures from people we don’t expect to work as hard to ensure good validity. We would be lucky if we could keep it to 4.00/valid.

  194. paulie Post author

    Obama vs Ryan, US Senate, Illinois, 2004. Ryan had a scandal and the Republicans replaced him with Keyes.

    As it happened, the Libertarian party had ballot access in that election.

    Yes, I worked on that one too.

  195. paulie Post author

    For $100,000 we could be ready in one state such as Alabama for the next Roy Moore, when it happens 100 years from now.

    It happens a lot more often than that in Alabama. Just in my time in Alabama (I moved there in 1991) we have had more than one governor in prison, and the latest governor has resigned with a sex scandal. There have been other state officials and legislators embroiled in scandals and many state and congressional race are unopposed. In fact literally most of our legislative races are unopposed. We have had US Senate races that were unopposed.

  196. paulie Post author

    I’m interested in names and details in the South Carolina case. Can you dig those up?

    Stewart Flood would remember all that. I’ll email you his contact info. I’ll try to find it in old IPR comments but off hand I am not sure which search terms will be most effective to help me find it, but I’ll take a look.

  197. Michael Chastain

    Paulie —

    “We would be lucky if we could keep it to 4.00/valid.”

    Fair enough. Then 35,000 valid signatures would cost $140,000 (or equivalent in volunteer work).

    I see there are 3,000,000 registered voters in Alabama and the Alabama SOS charges $.01 per record for an electronic copy. So the people running the drive could add $30,000 to the price and buy a complete copy of the registered voters as of a certain date. Or they could save $30,000 and work as you describe, which would be worse than the conditions in, for example, Ohio.

    (I spent over 200 hours, unpaid, validating signatures for the Ohio 2017 drive.)

    In my opinion, that kind of price tag is far too much for the benefit of occasionally being in a good position when the next scandal happens.

    Of course the major reason for ballot access is to run candidates all the time, not just in these unusual circumstances. I’m watching Oklahama now to see if the $100,000 that Libertarians spent in 2016 is going to produce results in 2018 and beyond.

  198. Michael Chastain

    Paulie wrote:

    _Stewart Flood would remember all that. I’ll email you his contact info. I’ll try to find it in old IPR comments but off hand I am not sure which search terms will be most effective to help me find it, but I’ll take a look._

    I think it would be very valuable for someone to compile a book of case histories of independent and minor party campaigns. (Maybe I can reorganize my life and do it myself).

    Part two is finding people who want to learn from case histories instead of relying on their own horse sense. I think that’s actually harder.

  199. paulie Post author

    Michael,

    I emailed you some info on the SC race. It was actually 2012, Jeremy Walters. I’ll see what I can dig up at IPR about it also.

  200. paulie Post author

    I think it would be very valuable for someone to compile a book of case histories of independent and minor party campaigns.

    Darcy Richardson has a good multi-volume series, but I could write one with more of this kind of nuts and bolts detail you are looking for on campaign spending and tactics.

  201. Michael Chastain

    Paulie — argh, Darcy Richardson’s books are not on Kindle. However I can live with that.

    Chuck — yup, I will call you soon. Later today if I get time.

  202. William Saturn

    I agree with Luke. There is no equivalence.

    There is no actual evidence of wrongdoing by Judge Moore, just anecdotal and straight made up accusations (Moore was judge at divorce proceedings for the woman whose yearbook he allegedly signed (allegedly with DA when he was actually DDA)).

    However, for Senator Franken, there is actual evidence in the form of a photograph that shows Franken groping a woman’s breasts as she sleeps.

    No equivalence.

  203. J.R.Myers

    A CP National Executive Committee meeting just concluded. The National CP Executive Committee has voted unanimously to stand behind U.S.Senate candidate, Roy Moore.

  204. dL

    Yet the argument here is still about personality.

    No, most of it stems around whether or not one believes the Washington post…runner up would be whataboutism, as in what about Bill Clinton or Al Franken. Third place goes to a general debate on age of consent laws and retroactive statutory limitations.

  205. dL

    There is no actual evidence of wrongdoing by Judge Moore, just anecdotal and straight made up accusations

    That may or may not be…but there is plenty of contemporaneous evidence that he is a crackpot, a flim flam artist, a hypocrite and a textbook example of how a bungling defense against allegations, specious or not, can be worse than the allegations.

  206. Luke

    “I agree with Luke.”

    No, you don’t.

    “There is no actual evidence of wrongdoing by Judge Moore”,

    There’s plenty of evidence. Here’s just some of it:

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/11/the_mountain_of_evidence_against_roy_moore.html

    “just anecdotal”

    It’s not just anecdotal when dozens of other people remember being told about it years ago and multiple other people remember that he was a notorious creep who was banned from the mall for habitually harassing teenage girls among other things.

    “and straight made up accusations (Moore was judge at divorce proceedings for the woman whose yearbook he allegedly signed (allegedly with DA when he was actually DDA)).”

    You are engaging in wishful thinking. He simply exaggerated his title. There is no reason to believe the signature isn’t his.

    The evidence is overwhelming, and Moore doesn’t even really deny it believably if you watch his Hannity interview. He didn’t “generally” date teens but when he did he asked their mothers (but actually he did not ask their mothers) – WTF is that?

    Bad news for Moore http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-jones-moore-alabama-senate-poll-20171116-story.html Democrat Jones leads Republican Moore by 8 points in Alabama, per Fox News poll … Jones leads by 23% among women and has higher overall rankings for moral character among all voters.

    More bad news for Moore: https://www.predictit.org/Market/3299/Who-will-win-the-2017-US-Senate-special-election-in-Alabama Doug Jones is ahead in the betting market, 54-43

    Worse news for Moore: the woman that William Saturn is wishful thinking “straight made up” allegations has offered to testify under oath to the Senate Ethics Committee, potentially subjecting herself to criminal charges if she lies. Why would she do that if she is lying?

    To those of you who still support this reprobate Roy Moore, have fun going down the drain with his misbegotten campaign.

  207. Tony From Long Island

    Billy Sats:

    There is no actual evidence of wrongdoing by Judge Moore

    In a criminal court proceeding, testimony from a victim of a sex crime is enough evidence, in and of itself, to convict. So yes. There is evidence.

  208. dL

    n a criminal court proceeding, testimony from a victim of a sex crime is enough evidence, in and of itself, to convict. So yes. There is evidence.

    perhaps…under cross examination.

    allegations != evidence

  209. paulie Post author

    There’s plenty of evidence of Roy Moore’s guilt. I have posted a bunch of it earlier. This is not a criminal case, he does not have to be proven guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt. And even in criminal cases people have been convicted with less, even though it’s too late for that unless there are more recent younger victims than we know about. But oddly enough, unlike most child predators, Roy Moore seems to have stuck with women born around the same calendar years as they aged, rather than sticking with the same age group at any particular moment. Kayla Moore is the same age as Leigh Corfman and was in high school with her, even though he met Kayla Moore ten years later, and the most recent known victim, in 1991 (“he didn’t pinch, he grabbed”), was the oldest at 28 at the time, so she would have also been a teenager when the other girls who were harassed as teenagers were.

  210. paulie Post author

    I have at last got one piece of advice for the Ron Bishop campaign as to what to do that may be better than skywriting, which is to robocall a lot of voters with the write-in message. What do others here think? IF you were Ron Bishop or working on his campaign, what would be your plan for reaching the largest possible audience with your message?

  211. Tony From Long Island

    If doing a TV ad is not financially feasible, Robocalls or billboards are better than skywriting. Hell, rolling cigars out of 100 dollar bills and smoking them is better than skywriting.

    Showing up at Moore and Jones public events costs nothing more than the transportation.

  212. DJ

    Thane Eichenauer
    November 17, 2017 at 01:20

    DJ, On what angles do you think Roy Moore is anti-elitist?
    ……………

    I don’t remember saying he’s “anti-elitist”. What I do remember saying is he ain’t one of them.
    It’s also pretty obvious they want nothing to do with him. That may be strictly political theater being acted out by a bunch of clowns, but, they are good actors. Typical used car salesmen, just better dressed.

  213. Tony From Long Island

    dL ” . . . .perhaps…under cross examination. . . . ”

    Of course. Cross examination would help determine the credibility of a witness, but her testimony is still “evidence.” So anyone who says there’s “no evidence” doesn’t understand the concept.

    Paulie is also, of course, right that this is a trial in the court of pubic opinion, where the rules of evidence are a tad bit more broad than in a court of law.

  214. dL

    Of course. Cross examination would help determine the credibility of a witness, but her testimony is still “evidence.” So anyone who says there’s “no evidence” doesn’t understand the concept.

    well, it is not certain that whatever is published in a newspaper would be admissible. Hence, I might counter that anyone who equates public allegations w/ evidence doesn’t quite understand the legal definition of evidence.

  215. dL

    There’s plenty of evidence of Roy Moore’s guilt. I have posted a bunch of it earlier. This is not a criminal case, he does not have to be proven guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt.

    Perhaps you should then clarify what he is guilty of…

  216. Anon-Tipper

    paulie: “IF you were Ron Bishop or working on his campaign, what would be your plan for reaching the largest possible audience with your message?”

    I would do this ad, but replace Clinton with Moore and put “Write-In Ron Bishop for U.S. Senate”: https://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/DNkccV9XkAEYnK5.jpg

    Is there an update on how his campaign is going? (I scrolled through the thread quickly) Curious if he’s getting any traction with Republicans that hate Moore.

  217. Tony From Long Island

    dL

    well, it is not certain that whatever is published in a newspaper would be admissible. Hence, I might counter that anyone who equates public allegations w/ evidence doesn’t quite understand the legal definition of evidence.

    The allegations in the newspaper were not anonymous. No one would have to be admitting a newspaper into evidence. Do you really want to play word semantics here?

  218. dL

    The allegations in the newspaper were not anonymous. No one would have to be admitting a newspaper into evidence. Do you really want to play word semantics here?

    I’m not playing word games. Published allegations, anonymous or not, are not “testimony.” This is the legal definition of testimony:
    https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/testimony

    i.e, admissible, under oath, cross-examined. The oral account, if any, that emerges after those 3 standards are applied is what a “testimony” is.

  219. Tony From Long Island

    Your last post was quite patronizing and unnecessary. I am fully aware of what constitutes “evidence” and what constitutes “testimony.” I’ve spent more than my fair share of time in a courtroom.

    My first post on this topic was clearly meant to point out that if the people who gave statements to reporters were ACTUALLY TESTIFYING, that would be enough “evidence” to convict (subject to cross-examination).

    Who the hell would claim that you can put a newspaper article on the stand? An article in and of itself is obviously not enough to convict.

  220. paulie Post author

    There has not been sworn testimony yet, as there has not been a venue to provide such, but at least one woman has offered to provide sworn testimony when the opportunity arises. I already linked at least some of the evidence earlier. I think someone else did so as well more recently in the thread.

  221. paulie Post author

    Is there an update on how his campaign is going? (I scrolled through the thread quickly) Curious if he’s getting any traction with Republicans that hate Moore.

    I don’t think that very many of them know about it yet. That’s why campaign manager Jim Albea thinks he can catch the attention of the whole state by having a skywriter at the Iron Bowl, which is the biggest event of the year in Alabama, and handing out a hundred thousand fliers around the game. Those of you who have better suggestions on how the campaign can cost-effectively reach millions of Alabama voters spread throughout the state can contact Jim Albea at 205-807-8165 or Jim.albea@lpalabama.org, although I am also interested in your ideas in this thread as well. But if you are serious about having the campaign consider your plan the best thing would be to contact them directly.

  222. paulie Post author

    If doing a TV ad is not financially feasible, Robocalls or billboards are better than skywriting. Hell, rolling cigars out of 100 dollar bills and smoking them is better than skywriting.

    Tv ads for effective coverage are way out of the budget. The 15k is not money in the bank, it’s just what they are trying to raise. Which in itself may not even be realistic. Billboards would also not reach the whole state unless you had a lot of them, and they can’t afford that either. Robocalls may be doable.

    Showing up at Moore and Jones public events costs nothing more than the transportation.

    Also a good idea, but keep in mind that Ron Bishop’s volunteers have day jobs. They can’t afford to run around the state and campaign on weekdays like the big money campaigns do. But they’ll pretty much all be at the Iron Bowl anyway, or could make a day trip of it even if they don’t go to the game itself so that’s within their time budget.

    I told them though if they do pass out a bunch of fliers at the game slip them in some football programs if they don’t want them going straight to the trash. I don’t know if they really got that message but I did tell them.

  223. Anon-Tipper

    “I don’t think that very many of them know about it yet. That’s why campaign manager Jim Albea thinks he can catch the attention of the whole state by having a skywriter at the Iron Bowl, which is the biggest event of the year in Alabama…”

    Thanks! I don’t have any experience with campaigns, but if something pops into my head, I’ll float it here.
    Does he have some lawn signs? I don’t know how effective they are, but they (might be, idk) low cost, LP members can put them in their lawns and on a couple on busy intersections around the state.

  224. paulie Post author

    I don’t know, but for a statewide race you would need thousands and thousands of signs and the volunteer time too put them all up. They may be able to afford a few signs but it would be a drop in a very big bucket. So far robocalls is the best alternative I have heard.

  225. Anon-Tipper

    Yeah, you’re right, I guess I’ve only really seen them for local races around where I live (and presidential). The only flaw I can see with robocalls would be that, I think, it’s illegal to call cell phones, so they might miss people that gave up their landline. (I think it’s still around 46% of households have a landline though so it should still be worth it)

  226. wolfefan

    The statement of a victim, even an alleged victim is evidence. It may be strong evidence or weak evidence depending on the corroboration, cross-examination, and circumstances, but it is undeniably evidence. An alleged victim is one who was (allegedly) an eyewitness to the crime.

  227. Thane Eichenauer

    DJ commented: I don’t remember saying he’s “anti-elitist”.

    I’m just trying to thrash out the gist not allege that you said X or Y.
    Outsider is a perception. Elitist is a position.

  228. DJ

    “Perception” by me was based on your words, “anti-elitist”.

    Since he isn’t on the “inside” he is obviously an outsider, by definition.
    That the elitist don’t want him means they don’t want him to have “position” on the inside of their close knit kindred spirits.

    Why is anyone’s guess, but it isn’t what he’s accused of as they have (and will continue no doubt) to defend insiders (those already ensconced and proven) regardless of the accusations, unless of course it’s the “other side” (depending on the “perceived” opportunity) of an aisle that exists only to keep “We the people” divided. All this is is a witch hunt where the insiders (elitist) see an opportunity to get on a band wagon and feign moral outrage by piling on an “outsider”, but, the insider elitist have no grounds for a moral high ground in any situation or circumstance. Their pretentiousness is disgusting.

  229. paulie Post author

    RCP Average 11/9 – 11/15 — — 47.2 46.4 Moore +0.8

    FOX News 11/13 – 11/15 649 LV 3.5 42 50 Jones +8
    FOX 10/Strategy Research 11/13 – 11/13 3000 LV 2.0 49 43 Moore +6
    Emerson 11/9 – 11/11 600 LV 3.9 55 45 Moore +10
    JMC Analytics* 11/9 – 11/11 575 LV 4.1 44 48 Jones +4
    Opinion Savvy 11/9 – 11/9 515 LV 4.3 46 46 Tie

  230. George Phillies

    “RCP Average”

    Yes, the answer is in there someplace. Most of the pollsters, but not all, agree as to the candidate names.

    Only one of them polled with a third candidate in the race.

  231. Michael Chastain

    Paulie asks: if one were working on the Ron Bishop campaign, what would one do?

    I would research previous campaigns where one of the major party candidates was dominant and was in a scandal. I thought of two previous campaigns: Bob Toricelli (D), US Senate, New Jersey, 2002; and David Duke (D), US Senate, Louisiana, 1990. Paulie also mentioned Ryan (R), US Senate, Illinois, 2004.

    Two of those races had Libertarian candidates:

    Elizabeth Macron (L), NJ 2002, received 0.59% of the vote.
    Jerry Kohn (L), IL 2004, received 1.3% of the vote.

    And that’s with being on the ballot.

    I would contact Ms. Macron and Mr. Kohn and ask them how their races went and if they had any ideas for running a similar race.

    If I could not get information from prior candidates in similar positions, then here is what I would do in Bishop’s race: spend very little money. Recruit activists instead. Build an activist network of people who actually *show up and work* and then prepare for a future project in a year later than 2017. It’s up to Alabama activists to decide what to do in Alabama, but they may want to look at getting statewide ballot access.

  232. Chuck Moulton

    Michael Chastain wrote (shortened to the point of misquoting):

    here is what I would do in Bishop’s race: spend very little money.

    I completely agree. In my opinion treating the Bishop campaign as a winnable race is delusional and insane. Donor money is better devoted to campaigns where our candidate is actually on the ballot, not thrown away on write-in advertising. On the other hand, if the Republicans didn’t make the ballot and were mounting a write-in campaign while our candidate had made the ballot, that would be exciting to
    me.

  233. dL

    Your last post was quite patronizing and unnecessary. I am fully aware of what constitutes “evidence” and what constitutes “testimony.” I’ve spent more than my fair share of time in a courtroom.

    I’m not patronizing. There is a difference between a conviction in the court of public opinion and a criminal conviction. There’s a difference between being disqualified from public office and being disqualified from the liberty of movement beyond the dimensions of a jail cell. And the former does not establish the latter.

    To be clear, I certainly do think the public allegations should disqualify Moore from public office(i.e., he shouldn’t win any election, not even dogcatcher). And I certainly do find them to be credible. But that’s my own opinion. Of course, I also think that the dude’s actions and words should have long ago disqualified him from ever showing up on a ballot.

    However, along with being a libertarian, I am a staunch civil libertarian, even for despicable political enemies. What shows up in the newspapers as public allegations is not enough to establish guilt. It might be enough to establish a strong suspicion of guilt–and a strong suspicion of guilt is certainly enough to conclude I ain’t voting for that douchebag. But not guilt itself. Establishment of guilt requires the accused to have the opportunity to the face the accuser in open court. And in that setting, the defendant operates on a presumption of innocence.

  234. Don Wills

    Wow 300+ posts about a sleaze-bag politician. It’s not like there aren’t a few hundred other sleaze-bags in the DC swamp (e.g. Bill Clinton). Q. Why all the interest? A. Sex sells.

    These H.L. Mencken quotes summarize today’s state of affairs quite well:

    “As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart’s desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

    “The state — or, to make matters more concrete, the government — consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant and pine for something they can’t get, and to promise to give it to them. Nine times out of ten that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time it is made good by looting ‘A’ to satisfy ‘B’. In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advanced auction on stolen goods.”

    ###

    Why you folks here at IPR believe that elections in today’s USA can fix things never ceases to amaze me (see the definition of insanity misattributed to A. Einstein).

  235. paulie Post author

    Wow 300+ posts about a sleaze-bag politician.

    Only some of the comments are about Roy Moore.

    It’s not like there aren’t a few hundred other sleaze-bags in the DC swamp

    Most of them, as far as we know, did not touch 14 year old girls, get banned from their town’s mall for habitually sexually harassing teen girls or try to orally rape a 16 year old. Moore did all three, among other things, according to a consistent pattern of accusations that many other people remember hearing years ago and at least one woman has offered to testify under oath to.

  236. DJ

    Don Wills
    November 18, 2017 at 17:25

    Wow 300+ posts about a sleaze-bag politician. It’s not like there aren’t a few hundred other sleaze-bags in the DC swamp (e.g. Bill Clinton). Q. Why all the interest? A. Sex sells.
    …………..

    Didn’t you get the memo? Democrats/leftist are pure as the driven snow.

    What Hillary Knew

    Hillary Clinton once tweeted that “every survivor of sexual assault deserves to be heard, believed, and supported.” What about Juanita Broaddrick?

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/11/what-hillary-knew/546170/

  237. Don Wills

    And how about Speaker Denny Hastert and his fondness for young boys. Or Ted Kennedy’s homicide of one of his paramours. Or Mark Foley. Or Jeffrey Epstein’s famous “Orgy Island” which has been visited by many swamp critters. What’s so special about Moore? Answer – George Soros and the Dems smell blood to reduce the margin in the Senate – the result is Wapo/NYT/CNN/NBC/et al carrying the D water.

    Doesn’t it seem a little fishy that this only comes out now, after the guy has been elected several times during his 40 year career in public? I guess skepticism of the MSM isn’t in vogue here at IPR. Sad.

  238. Luke

    “Didn’t you get the memo? Democrats/leftist are pure as the driven snow.”

    No, but at least these days when evidence emerges that one of their own such as Anthony Weiner acted inappropriately with underage girl(s) or even an adult woman (Franken) they don’t keep defending them. Hell, Franken called for *himself* to be investigated by the Ethics Committee and a Democratic Senator from NY, Gillibrand, now says Clinton should have resigned over the Lewinsky situation even though she was a consenting adult. On the other hand, many Republicans continue to stick by Trump and Moore even after they are accused by multiple women and teenage girls of harrassment, abuse and assault. And the charges against these Republicans are actually worse – they involve both force and underage girls.

    By the way, wasn’t someone complaining that we were not discussing the policy issues? Well now we are. Why did Moore side with so many men accused of sex crimes as a judge?

  239. Luke

    “Or Jeffrey Epstein’s famous “Orgy Island” which has been visited by many swamp critters. ”

    Including Trump on quite a few occasions. And you think he will be the one to drain the swap? That’s what is truly sad.

    “And how about …”

    How about not deflecting attention? Are any of these people running for office right now?

    ” What’s so special about Moore?”

    Running for office right now in an election to be held in less than a month. Focus of national attention as no other statewide election is happening this year. Accused by multiple women and teen girls. He is disputing it, thus stirring the controversy. Highly controversial even before this, removed from the bench twice for ignoring the rule of law. Used his power as judge to, among other things, claim that the fact that a 12 year old was not a virgin should have been admitted as a defense against rape. Banned by town mall as a notorious sexual harasser of teen girls. Behind in many polls in a state that has not elected a Democrat to the Senate in 25 years and where the margins are usually easily in the double digits for Republicans, after an unusually strong Democratic performance around the country earlier this month.

    Why is it surprising that this is all put together big national news?

    “Doesn’t it seem a little fishy that this only comes out now, after the guy has been elected several times during his 40 year career in public?”

    No, it doesn’t. Women in all sorts of fields, not just politics, are coming out of the shadows and finally speaking out about powerful men who intimidated them into silence for years and finally being believed.

  240. Don Wills

    And yes, I know it says 1977 in the yearbook. But is the accuser willing to testify that she saw him write that then? I didn’t think so.

    And a thought experiment – if it really did happen, do you think Moore is that stupid to leave evidence?

    I am extremely skeptical of the whole thing. Yep, Moore was likely a creep in his 20’s. But that’s not enough to disqualify him morally from being a US Senator.

    paulie’s conflating of “touch” to “fingered” is typical of the NY/DC propaganda axis that controls the thought of the sheep. STOP FALLING FOR IT.

  241. Luke

    “What year is Moore alleged to have signed the yearbook?”

    The date is in the signature.

    “Particularly in the face of this –”

    Breitbart is garbage propaganda. That accuser has offered to testify under oath, and the evidence including the yearbook will be examined in that setting. There is no mystery there and Allred has consistently answered that question.

  242. Don Wills

    Luke – STRAWMAN ALERT! No, I didn’t vote for Trump and no I didn’t think he would drain the swamp. And he won’t. We’re fucked.

  243. Luke

    “But is the accuser willing to testify that she saw him write that then? ”

    Yes she is, as she has said from the beginning. Under oath.

    ” I didn’t think so.”

    You thought wrong.

    “And a thought experiment – if it really did happen, do you think Moore is that stupid to leave evidence?”

    Yes, he was that arrogant and sure of his power over his victims. As he told at least one of them she was just a child and he was a powerful prosecutor and no one would believe her.

    “Yep, Moore was likely a creep in his 20’s.”

    30s and 40s and who knows, probably later too.

    “But that’s not enough to disqualify him morally from being a US Senator.”

    Yes it is, although he was disqualified for other reasons before this came out.

    “paulie’s conflating of “touch” to “fingered””

    That was me, and I already acknowledge I initially speed-read and misread that part. Try to keep up.

    Of course accusations of attempted oral rape of a 16 year old are among the other accusations that have since come out…

  244. Luke

    “I didn’t vote for Trump and no I didn’t think he would drain the swamp. And he won’t. We’re fucked.”

    You’re right.

    “out of hand dismissal of Breitbart is what progressive are famous for.”

    And in this case they are correct.

    “Do you also believe that government should be the arbiter of truth, and that we sheep have no right to hear anything other than such “approved” truth.”

    Of course not. Didn’t I just make clear that the president’s preferred media outlets are garbage propaganda?

    “Try this – http://dailycaller.com/2017/11/15/moores-attorney-questions-whether-yearbook-signature-is-real/

    Their ridiculous denials are not news and were discussed above. In case you missed it, once again, why is she offering to testify under oath if she is lying?

  245. Chuck Moulton

    Paulie wrote:

    Roy Moore sided with men accused of sexual crimes in 13 of 20 cases Not what you would expect from a law and order conservative…or is it?

    I hate to have to be the one defending Roy Moore, because as I have repeatedly said I disagree with most of his policy decisions , think he’s a sleezeball, and would never vote for the guy. But yet again instead of focusing on the multitude if things actually wrong with Roy Moore, you and others zone in on minor or irrelevant points and wildly misinterpret things.

    A judge’s job at the appellate level is to interpret the law, not to pick winners and losers. That Moore’s opinions and interpretations happened to favor a particular class does not necessarily indicate a bias for that class of defendants.

    Similarly, attorneys are advocates in an advesarial legal system who zealously represent their clients. Everyone deserves representation. If a lawyer defends someone morally reprehensible, that does not make the lawyer morally reprehensible.

    I get that we all hate Roy Moore. It would be nice if you all would avoid illogical, specious arguments while throwing him under the bus — because it only hurts your own credibility and reputation, making the reader less likely to believe your reasonable arguments.

    This is the same problem with the alt-right and white supremecists… I loathe them, but sometimes you all go so over the top that you are clearly in the wrong and let them get to play the victim card. Stop it.

  246. Don Wills

    Luke the Kool-Aid drinker – since you don’t seem to be interested in any new facts, how about these paragraphs from the Daily Caller article (paraphrased so paulie doesn’t delete this post for copyright infringement) –


    “During the press conference Ms. Nelson and Gloria Allred had on Monday, they both said that Ms. Nelson after the allegations had never seen nor had any contact with Judge Moore. As it turns out, in 1999, Ms. Nelson filed a divorce action against her then-husband Mr. Harris,” Jauregui told reporters in Alabama.

    “Guess who that case was before? It was filed in Etowah County and the judge assigned was Roy Moore, circuit judge of Etowah County.”

    Moore’s attorney also noted that Moore told him he never signed “D.A.” after his signature as he was never a district attorney. He instead was an assistant district attorney. However, Jauregui did say that “D.A.” appears after Moore’s name in a filing in Nelson’s divorce case.

    This was due to Moore’s assistant, whose initials were “D.A.,” stamping D.A. after Moore’s name in documents.

    Do you sincerely believe that it is an incontrovertible fact that Moore signed the yearbook in 1977 when the accuser was 16? Not a shred of doubt? And you would vote to convict if you sat on a jury?

  247. Luke

    It pays to read other sources too.

    “in 1999, Ms. Nelson filed a divorce action against her then-husband Mr. Harris,” Jauregui told reporters in Alabama.”

    She quickly changed her mind, and in such cases it would not have been uncommon for her to have never come in contact with the judge.

    “Moore’s attorney also noted that Moore told him he never signed “D.A.” after his signature as he was never a district attorney. He instead was an assistant district attorney.”

    He was trying to throw his power around and both intimidate and wow the girls with what a big shot he was, so not surprising that he dropped the assistant part.

    ” However, Jauregui did say that “D.A.” appears after Moore’s name in a filing in Nelson’s divorce case.”

    Yep, referenced in prior links. Again this is not news, and again why is she offering to testify under oath and potentially subject herself to criminal prosecution for perjury if she is lying? She is not being compelled to testify under oath, in fact she made that offer herself without being asked.

    “Do you sincerely believe that it is an incontrovertible fact that Moore signed the yearbook in 1977 when the accuser was 16? ”

    It seems highly unlikely that she would offer to testify under oath if she is lying. Alred would also be smart enough to expect that if it was a forgery that fact would be exposed, even if the accuser isn’t.

    “And you would vote to convict if you sat on a jury?”

    It’s improper to conflate a jury with an election. I would say the evidence standard to deny someone a seat in the Senate is, and should be, lower than that to deprive them of their liberty. I believe the first standard has been met, although it is redundant in this case as Moore was already amply disqualified even without this.

    By the way, at least according to some sources I have read of watched the Senate Ethics Committee has the power to investigate a potential member even before the election, so if that is true there is nothing to stop a hearing on this matter and having the witness sworn in and the evidence introduced into a legal proceeding right now. Why wait? If you really want to know whether the yearbook is genuine, join me in calling on the Senate to convene the Ethics Committee hearing right away and take Ms. Nelson (Young) up on her offer to testify under oath immediately, before the election.

  248. Don Wills

    Kool-Aid drinker wrote “He was trying to throw his power around and both intimidate and wow the girls with what a big shot he was, so not surprising that he dropped the assistant part.”

    Wow! There’s a fact free assertion. Did you make that up yourself, or are you parroting Soros’ talking points?

  249. Luke

    “Gloria Allred is a great bluffer. There will be no testimony under oath.”

    Let’s see if that is true. Join me in calling for the Senate Ethics Committee to be convened immediately to hold hearings on this matter. I want to know the truth, and I want to see if she will really testify under oath or not. Why wait? The sooner the better.

  250. Don Wills

    “Join me in calling for…” Really? Do you think my email will make any difference? You, sir, are deluded.

  251. Luke

    “There’s a fact free assertion.”

    No, it’s based on the obvious pattern that emerges from all the eyewitness accounts that he was throwing his power around, acting like a big shot and both explicitly and implicitly trying to wow and intimidate with his title/position. Given all that why would it be surprising if he left out the “assistant” part? Assistant makes him sound lesser, which was the opposite of the impression he was trying to convey, and he most likely thought that 16 year old girls would not know the difference.

    “are you parroting Soros’ talking points?”

    Only if they get echoed by the Koch brothers. Come on Don, you can do better than that.

  252. Luke

    “Really? Do you think my email will make any difference? ”

    Maybe, maybe not. All too many people don’t bother, assuming it makes no difference. Thus the few who do bother have a disproportionate say. There are certainly cases where politicians have responded to public pressure, and given the vast amounts of apathy, laziness and inaction among the general public your say can be very, very disproportionate. In any case what would it hurt?

  253. Luke

    “I’d think y’all would be pulling for Moore. LOL

    Flake, on hot mic, says GOP will be “toast” if it’s the party of Trump and Moore”

    Why? I’m not a Democrat or a progressive, and Flake may or may not be correct. If he is correct, the Democrats come with their own set of problems so we’ll hardly be out of the woods. If he is wrong, we may be in for full blown totalitarianism, third world levels of corruption, civil war or even global nuclear annihilation. Time will tell, but I see little cause to celebrate.

  254. DJ

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/jeff-flake-hot-mic-gop-will-be-toast-party-of-trump-and-moore/
    Luke
    November 18, 2017 at 19:31

    “I’d think y’all would be pulling for Moore. LOL

    Flake, on hot mic, says GOP will be “toast” if it’s the party of Trump and Moore”

    Why? I’m not a Democrat or a progressive, and Flake may or may not be correct. If he is correct, the Democrats come with their own set of problems so we’ll hardly be out of the woods. If he is wrong, we may be in for full blown totalitarianism, third world levels of corruption, civil war or even global nuclear annihilation. Time will tell, but I see little cause to celebrate.
    ………….

    Well, he’s not Moore. He’s not a Republican, though I seriously doubt either will pull the trigger on a nuclear war. We already have 3rd world level of corruption, it’s just more sophisticated and better accepted because it’s been incremental and ALL politicians play the game of trust and “We the people” have been trusting them….. but, I digress. He’s not a Republican. That will make paulie happy. I guess I should have stated it differently.

  255. Luke

    “Well, he’s not Moore. He’s not a Republican”

    Who?

    “We already have 3rd world level of corruption,”

    No. We have corruption, but if you think it’s at third world levels you haven’t spent much time around different parts of the world, at least not in any way that dealt with business deals and foreign governments.

    “He’s not a Republican.”

    ???

    “That will make paulie happy.”

    I doubt it. He is not a Democrat or a progressive either. There’s nothing good about effective one party rule whether that be the Democrats or the Trumpenvolksreich.

  256. dL

    I’d think y’all would be pulling for Moore. LOL

    Flake, on hot mic, says GOP will be “toast” if it’s the party of Trump and Moore

    Just as I don’t subscribe to the lesser of two evils, I likewise do not subscribe to the greater of two evils as a means to an end…

  257. dL

    That accuser( Beverly Young Nelson) has offered to testify under oath

    There is no possibility of a criminal trial, but if Gloria Allred is involved, I’m sniffing the possibility of a civil suit. This is where ole Roy’s defense of the allegation is worse than the allegations. It opens up a defamation claim. That is exactly what Allred is using in the Bill Cosby cases.

  258. dL

    Wow 300+ posts about a sleaze-bag politician. It’s not like there aren’t a few hundred other sleaze-bags in the DC swamp (e.g. Bill Clinton). Q. Why all the interest? A. Sex sells.

    Sex sells, but I don’t think Roy Moore’s sexual practices 40 years ago titillates anyone all that much. In this instance, they are some here that want to use it as a proxy in the fight against the alt-right. And there are those here who to embrace it as the ultimate duplicity of the “liberal media.” And there are those here who are not all that comfortable with the puritanical tones or the criminal justice tones being sounded in the zeal to use these allegations to take down a political enemy.

  259. dL

    Let’s see if that is true. Join me in calling for the Senate Ethics Committee to be convened immediately to hold hearings on this matter. I want to know the truth, and I want to see if she will really testify under oath or not. Why wait? The sooner the better.

    Hearings on what? Moore is not in the senate. Personally, I think the idea of substituting politics and congress for the criminal and civil court system to be a particularly bad one.

  260. DJ

    dL
    November 18, 2017 at 23:29

    I’d think y’all would be pulling for Moore. LOL

    Flake, on hot mic, says GOP will be “toast” if it’s the party of Trump and Moore

    Just as I don’t subscribe to the lesser of two evils, I likewise do not subscribe to the greater of two evils as a means to an end…
    ……………………

    Lesser, greater. Evil is evil. The rhetoric used to sell it is the only difference between the evils.

  261. Thane Eichenauer

    paulie,
    As to why I don’t gamble via PredictIt or some other gambling method.
    Answer: I have never been keen on gambling. I went to Las Vegas in my younger days, walked up to a slot machine, put a coin in it and pulled the lever. Suprise! I didn’t win. I’ve not felt much of an urge to gamble save on elections. I wouldn’t mind being paid to operate a gambling pool on this election but there are too many angles and methods by which they, them, those (the bad guys) can prosecute you whether you win or loose.

    I’d prefer to read abouts bets and betting markets on the Alabama US Senate election than polls though. Even then the current betting markets seem open to being gamed. I’m a skeptic no matter the market, betting or electoral.

  262. DJ

    Luke
    November 18, 2017 at 21:20

    I doubt it. He is not a Democrat or a progressive either. There’s nothing good about effective one party rule whether that be the Democrats or the Trumpenvolksreich
    ……………

    I’ve yet to see a post by any of you denouncing the left. I see a lot of name calling like the above which implies the opposite of the right is preferred, and in today’s political arena there are only 2 choices. Left or right. You’re all real good at attacking the right and by ignoring the same, if not worse, from the left is a Democrat/Progressive stance.

    Like I’ve said in another post. IF I just happened by here (which I did) and read all the posts (which I have) I would have to believe you’re all mostly leftist (which I do) who argue with each other about whose brand of libertarian is best (which you all do) while ignoring the real problems we have which is monetary policy and foreign policy which is subscribed to by BOTH sides of the political theater in DC.

    Y’all’s pseudo-intellectual condescension and self righteousness is typical of BOTH political party’s. That you ALL refuse to see it causes you to be no different than those you hate, which is mainly those on the right, which by definition leaves you on the left which is absolutely no better and represented by Democrats and Progressives, most of whom are the same, and no different than Republicans except in rhetoric. That is especially true of paulie (and IIRC he has said he was a Democrat until he saw the light LOL) since nearly everything he posts is hate filled rhetoric about the right and you’re gaining ground on him. Y’all seem to be in a contest with one another about who can be the smartest leftist using the most vile terms you can think of, which is also what Democrats and Progressives do. So, since what you do/say is near identical to the left that leaves very little wiggle room for not subscribing to leftist beliefs, which are no different than those you hate, they’re just sold with different rhetoric. They BOTH want total control.

    dl has at least made a reasoned resistance to the witch hunt of Moore, and I admire that he did, yet, he’s argued against for it, which is unfuckingbelievable to me. Although I disagree with his beliefs about the evil is lesser than he at least in previous posts made an effort to ‘reason’ and not let the media crucify and have it be the norm like leftist do which is what paulie does and you’re catching up with him.

    Now, you, like paulie (so you can keep up with him) can choose to ignore my posts, which is fine with me. Liked I told paulie; that will sure make your opinions accurate. LOL. But, it won’t change the facts stated above, and it won’t change anyone’s mind, and anyone who just happens by will still most likely believe you’re mostly leftist here and can’t make up your minds about whose brand of libertarian is best. LOL

  263. paulie Post author

    prosecute you whether you win or loose.

    Highly unlikely. Election betting is common, and I haven’t heard of individuals getting prosecuted for it. If it happens at all it must be rare. If anything, it’s more likely that a betting service would get shut down, but being the internet they have lots of options to locate servers and bank accounts in countries that don’t care etc.

    Polls and prediction markets can both be wrong, but they are a good indication of what will happen in the election. More importantly though, there are several weeks left and all sorts of things could happen that will change the outcome in those weeks. I am by no means saying that Moore can’t win, he very well might. I am however saying that Jones could also well win, and that a write-in option has a small but not insignificant chance. Ron Bishop has a small chance of becoming that option, since at least so far all the big name Republicans want nothing to do with draft write-in campaigns and the Alabama NSGOP has threatened anyone who runs as a write-in or so much as endorses one with being banned from Republican ballot lines for 6 years.

  264. paulie Post author

    Hearings on what? Moore is not in the senate.

    They can hold ethics hearings on people who are running, at least according to the so-called experts on TV.

    Personally, I think the idea of substituting politics and congress for the criminal and civil court system to be a particularly bad one.

    Bodies can have ethics hearings on their members even if the statutes of limitations have expired for criminal and civil courts.

  265. paulie Post author

    There is no possibility of a criminal trial, but if Gloria Allred is involved, I’m sniffing the possibility of a civil suit. This is where ole Roy’s defense of the allegation is worse than the allegations. It opens up a defamation claim.

    If that’s the case then the yearbook and sworn testimony would both be introduced into evidence, and Beverly Young Nelson would be liable for perjury charges if she lies, correct? I thought the civil court statutes of limitations also expired, but if so that would be for the underlying crimes/torts, not for defaming the women by calling them liars – you have a good point.

    So if there is a likelihood of either Moore suing Young or Young suing Moore, and the yearbook and sworn testimony thus being introduced under oath, why would Allred allow Young to lie and introduced forged evidence? It makes no sense. What seems much more likely to me is that she is telling the truth and the physical evidence is in fact genuine.

  266. paulie Post author

    Gloria Allred is a great bluffer. There will be no testimony under oath.

    It’s not entirely under her control. The Senate may convene an ethics hearing if Moore wins. At least according to some sources they can do it even before that but in all likelihood they won’t. Her client would be called to testify, and if she changes her mind about that, could be subpoenaed. Also, even if Young doesn’t sue Moore for defamation, Moore could sue Young. Either way it’s quite possible, even likely, that she will end up in court testifying whether she likes it or not.

    Given that, why would Allred allow a forged yearbook to be misrepresented? I don’t think she would. She would be smart enough to know that it would end up being introduced as evidence in court and being examined by neutral experts.

  267. paulie Post author

    I hate to have to be the one defending Roy Moore, because as I have repeatedly said I disagree with most of his policy decisions , think he’s a sleezeball, and would never vote for the guy. But yet again instead of focusing on the multitude if things actually wrong with Roy Moore, you and others zone in on minor or irrelevant points and wildly misinterpret things.

    I’m open to the possibility that I am wrong about any of the particulars. Correct away.

    A judge’s job at the appellate level is to interpret the law, not to pick winners and losers. That Moore’s opinions and interpretations happened to favor a particular class does not necessarily indicate a bias for that class of defendants.

    That may be, but it could indicate such a bias. Given that Moore is more generally a “law and order” conservative it is at least suspicious that he sided with defendants in sex crimes cases more often than not.

    Similarly, attorneys are advocates in an advesarial legal system who zealously represent their clients. Everyone deserves representation. If a lawyer defends someone morally reprehensible, that does not make the lawyer morally reprehensible.

    I agree with that, but Moore was not anyone’s lawyer here. He was the one who ruled that evidence that a 12 year old girl was already previously sexually active should have been allowed as a defense in a rape case, and that a 4 year old boy was not forcibly compelled to have anal sex, among other things. It was not his job to defend those defendants, those were rulings he made.

    I get that we all hate Roy Moore. It would be nice if you all would avoid illogical, specious arguments while throwing him under the bus — because it only hurts your own credibility and reputation, making the reader less likely to believe your reasonable arguments.

    Hate is too strong of a word. I try not to hate anyone and I don’t hate Roy Moore. I strongly oppose his political ambitions. As for illogical and specious arguments I am open to having it pointed out what those are. I do understand that attorneys have to represent clients they don’t personally like and that judges have to ruled based on technical aspects of the law. If there is a good explanation for Moore’s rulings in those cases I can continue to make my case without those particular elements, but I have not heard one. At the moment, they seem like parts of a larger pattern with him.

    This is the same problem with the alt-right and white supremecists… I loathe them, but sometimes you all go so over the top that you are clearly in the wrong and let them get to play the victim card.

    What are some examples of such going over the top?

  268. dL

    They can hold ethics hearings on people who are running, at least according to the so-called experts on TV.

    I’m not aware of that. In a brief search on the topic, I have found nothing that to indicate otherwise. Moore would have to win the special election before any ethics hearing could take place.

    Bodies can have ethics hearings on their members even if the statutes of limitations have expired for criminal and civil courts.

    True, but it is rare. For members. In this instance, Allred is calling for a special hearing b/c a civil suit for her client would be too slow. Well, too bad. Anyone with any foresight(particularly those who take party “duopoly” seriously) should be able to see the ramifications of congress being able to hold ethics hearings on candidates it doesn’t like based on mere newspaper allegations. You are introducing the specter of legitimizing another possible barrier of entry for 3rd party candidates who might manage to get a sniff at a threat of victory. All that just to take down Roy Moore? Not to mention, a pre-election convening in the case of Moore would have a good probability of backfiring.

  269. paulie Post author

    I don’t remember commenting on whether it’s a good or a bad idea, only that according to the sources I have seen the Senate can do it. Where they got their information from and whether they are correct I don’t know, but they were touted as experts on TV.

    I don’t expect that there is any real likelihood of a Senate Ethics hearing on the matter before the election anyway. But one after the election is likely if Moore wins, and whether he wins or loses it seems likely that he will sue the accuser or she will sue him or both. One way or another the yearbook and sworn testimony is likely to be introduced into evidence. So the question remains why Allred would allow her client to lie and introduce forged evidence given that she knows this. I am thinking she did not, because the accusations are true and the evidence is not forged.

  270. paulie Post author

    From LPA

    The Executive Committee of The Libertarian Party of Alabama (LPA) has selected Mr. Ron Bishop of Irondale, Alabama to represent the Party as a write-in candidate for the upcoming Special Election for the U.S. Senate.

    Mr. Bishop, a native of Eufaula Alabama, is an IT professional in the Birmingham area. “I believe in free markets and free minds. The Democrats have become nothing but warmed-over socialists while the Republicans have completely lost their minds. The Libertarians have remained true to the core American values of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.”

    The Libertarian Party is the third largest political party in the United States. Libertarians believe the answer to America’s political problems is the same commitment to freedom that earned America its greatness: a free-market economy and the abundance and prosperity it brings; a dedication to civil liberties and personal freedom; and a foreign policy of non-intervention, peace, and free trade as prescribed by America’s founders.

    RonBishopForUSSenate.com

  271. Richard Winger

    There is a comment above that says Libertarian Party nominees for legislature have won in Alaska and New Hampshire. Vermont should have been listed also (1998, Neil Randall).

    The US Supreme Court ruled in 1970 that if the state gives a free list of registered voters to the qualified parties, then the state must give the same free list to any party that is not ballot-qualified but is trying to get on the ballot. Rockefeller v Socialist Workers Party, 400 US 806 (a summary affirmance of the 3-judge US District Court decision SWP v Rockefeller).

    I don’t expect Roy Moore to win, but if he did win, I do not believe the Senate would expel him. It takes a two-thirds vote and I don’t think the Republicans would be unanimous and voting to expel him, and I don’t think Democrats would vote to expel him. No US Senator has been expelled since the Civil War era and the expulsion was for treason. If Moore gets elected, the moral case for expelling him simply doesn’t exist. Expulsion is meant to apply to people who do thinks after they are elected, or just prior to being elected.

    I think it is conceivable that Roy Moore will withdraw.

  272. paulie Post author

    I don’t think Democrats would vote to expel him

    Why not?

    If Moore gets elected, the moral case for expelling him simply doesn’t exist

    I think a lot of Senators would disagree. I’m not sure it will be 2/3 but it could be.

    Expulsion is meant to apply to people who do thinks after they are elected, or just prior to being elected.

    I think it can apply to any member that the body feels has done something so egregious they can not have them as a colleague. But there may be differences of opinion on that.

    I think it is conceivable that Roy Moore will withdraw.

    Knowing him that seems highly unlikely.

  273. paulie Post author

    IMO, that’s wishful thinking without any basis in reality

    It’s not wishful thinking. There are already a lot of Senators talking about expulsion. Even if they don’t get enough votes I expect the hearings would still take place. And whether he wins or not I expect it’s likely that either Moore will sue his accuser or she will sue him, or both. So one way or another it will be introduced as evidence fairly soon. We don’t know the venue yet, but the threat of perjury will be attached. Again, Allred would know this and thus I do not believe she would allow her client to lie and introduce falsified evidence given this knowledge.

  274. Don Wills

    Long Island Tony wrote “I know of no such war”

    OK. I’ll use a more correct term in the future –

    “The War for Southern Independence”

    The war that killed more US soldiers than all other US wars combined was not a “civil war”. The revolutions in 1917-1921 in Russia were civil wars. The French revolution was a civil war. The Chinese conflagrations that resulted in the 1949 takeover of mainland China by the Communists was a civil war. The definition of “civil war” is a war between groups in a country. The US calamity was not a war between groups of people, it was war between sovereign states. That’s why General Lee chose to fight on the side of Virginia, and not on the side of the northern states even though he favored keeping the union intact.

    Yes, history is written by the victors. But that generally means the “history” is tainted with the propaganda of the victors. The “history” of The War for Southern Independence is no different.

  275. paulie Post author

    Thane, so it looks like a pretty close race with the lead trading back and forth in both the polls and prediction markets, with three unpredictable weeks ahead. That’s been my assessment for a while now. Now that I am actually back in Alabama, it hasn’t changed. Confirming that opinion, the RCP average is razor-thin at Jones +0.2%, within any poll’s margin of error.

    The polls may actually be giving Moore a bit of an edge because write-ins are not an option in the polls but are an option in Alabama elections. Any voter can write in anything they want here, with or without the candidate’s permission, so there will be some write-in votes for Strange, Sessions and others regardless of whether they cooperate with those efforts or not (and at this point it looks like they won’t). On the other hand, it’s possible that those votes are showing up as Jones supporters in the polls.

    I continue to believe the outcome is far from certain.

  276. Luke

    “OK. I’ll use a more correct term in the future –”

    Then you should call it the Slaveowners’ Rebellion or the War to Preserve Southern Slavery Forever or something like that. You can’t really call it a war for independence when the actual goal was to keep millions of human beings dependent in bondage. The biggest problem we continue to have is that reconstruction was not nearly radical enough.

  277. Tony From Long Island

    Don Willis:

    “The War for Southern Independence”

    Sorry I have heard of no such war.

    If you are referring to that war where they fought and died for the right to own people . . . I think I recall something like that. That must just be “propaganda.”

    Howard Cosell (aka Tony From Long Island): “You seem Awful truculent today, Champ.”

    Muhammad Ali (aka Don Willis): “I don’t know what truculent means, but if it’s good, it’s me”

  278. DJ

    Luke
    November 20, 2017 at 10:29

    “OK. I’ll use a more correct term in the future –”
    The biggest problem we continue to have is that reconstruction was not nearly radical enough.
    …………..

    Yeah, everyone you disagree with should have been shot. Right?

  279. Luke

    I’m not a fan of the death penalty. Many more traitors should have gone to prison, and a process similar to the denazification that took place in Germany after WW2 would have been better.

  280. paulie Post author

    Luke
    November 17, 2017 at 17:11
    Max Hardcore or Roy Moore?

    There are some superficial similarities – the cowboy hat, the obsession with teen girls – but there are also some important differences:

    * Max’s actresses only portray underage girls; in reality they are all over 18 and present IDs to prove it.

    * Max’s actresses give explicit consent in writing and get paid for their work.

    * Max is a victim of judicial abuse of power, having been imprisoned on the archaic charge of obscenity in 21st century US of A. Roy Moore is a practitioner of judicial abuse of power.

    * Max is completely up front about his sexual fetish. Roy Moore kept his completely in the closet while he made a name for himself hypocritically judging others for their own sexual orientations and perceived lack of morality.

  281. DJ

    Luke
    November 20, 2017 at 11:14

    I’m not a fan of the death penalty. Many more traitors should have gone to prison, and a process similar to the denazification that took place in Germany after WW2 would have been better.
    ………….

    Ah. So you want to use the power of the state to silence, or punish those you disagree with. Sounds naziesque to me. LOL….

  282. Luke

    No, I would have used the power of the federal government to keep the states which committed treason from putting power back in the hands of formerly slaveowning elites whereupon those elites used the power of the state to impose Jim Crow, segregation, sharecropping and other ways of reestablishing white elite power. Punishment would have been reserved for actual treason, not for disagreement. The denazification program in Germany was not “naziesque” and in fact did a great deal to heal Germany after the terrible damage of the nazi regime, as well as helped prevent a new one from rising up. Unfortunately, East Germany was not denazified in anything like the same way, and as a result there is a lot more neonazi activity there today.

  283. DJ

    LOL…. federal gov’t, state gov’t, local gov’t is semantics. You want to punish, or silence those you disagree with or who disagree with you. That is naziesque, no matter what pejorative you use as a justification.
    Obviously denazification is, by definition, not naziesque. What you’re proposing is. Actual Treason is hard to define, never mind prosecute, IF (and that is a big IF) one is open minded, which obviously you aren’t. It could be said Lincoln acted treasonously as well. He is the one who chose war and killed citizens. He is the one who spoke with forked tongue. He is the one who split the union. The south was acting based on the contract of the constitution, regardless of their reasons. Lincoln acted in an unconstitutional manner believing, I guess, the end justifies the means. The means killed a lot of citizens. That is a level of evil and immoral in and of itself. The North was no better in its beliefs, they were just jealous of the enterprise advantage the South had. THAT is a failure of their representatives in congress failing to do their job by negotiating to help ensure a level playing field. Or, maybe, just maybe, that’s what their representatives were doing. Representing their constituents desire to punish those they were jealous of.
    Never mind that those who prosecuted the reconstruction were just as bad if not worse than what they were reconstructing, and, they stole and plundered and murdered. Legally (state approved, or in your case fed gov’t approved), so that makes it denazification. Right?!

    There is no purity here, Luke. No matter how bad you want it to be.

    This is what I don’t understand about you and those like you. You want your cake and eat it too and clamor to punish and silence those who disagree with you, and in your case you want the state to do it, which is just as bad, if not worse than what was happening, because it was made “legal”, which is naziesque.

  284. Luke

    DJ, I have no idea what all that drivel means. Doesn’t look like there’s much to be gained from trying to figure it out, either.

  285. Luke

    That’s to be expected, but they are a rather insignificant group overall. A 5th party endorsement isn’t exactly what is going to get Roy Moore over the top, which he still very well may do – neither a defeat at the polls nor expulsion is by any means guaranteed, although either one may well happen.

  286. Don Wills

    Tony writes “Sorry I have heard of no such war.”

    You really should get out more. Maybe drive 400 miles southwest of Long Island and see what Virginians care about (and I mean real Virginians, not the wealth-sucking scum that lives in Arlington and Fairfax counties). Or maybe a cross-country road trip with lots of stops to see what America is all about.

    FWIW, I believe that the dissolution of the government of the united States of America, not unlike the result that the south desired, will happen in this century, maybe even in the next couple of decades. The country is too large and disparate to be held together much longer by anything less than a tyrannical central government. The founders experiment in self government is about to be concluded with the answer, No, mankind is not yet capable of self government. Hopefully the dissolution will happen without bloodshed, but history tells that empires generally don’t die without killing many of its subjects.

  287. Luke

    “You really should get out more. Maybe drive 400 miles southwest of Long Island and see what Virginians care about (and I mean real Virginians, not the wealth-sucking scum that lives in Arlington and Fairfax counties). Or maybe a cross-country road trip with lots of stops to see what America is all about.”

    Virginians aren’t the stereotype you portray them as, Don. Perhaps you missed the results of the elections in VA a couple of weeks ago? It’s far from certain, but that may even extend all the way to Alabama with Moore-Jones contest.

    “FWIW, I believe that the dissolution of the government of the united States of America, not unlike the result that the south desired, will happen in this century, maybe even in the next couple of decades. ”

    You may be right. However, I’m not going to agree with you that this is what the south desired. The south (actually just the wealthy white land/slave owning elite of the south) desired perpetual preservation of slavery and later segregation by whatever means necessary. When states rights benefits that goal they are for states rights, and when it doesn’t they are not.

    For example, when northern states were not sufficiently enforcing the fugitive slave laws, the south went to the federal government to force them to help them out. There was secessionist sentiment among the northern abolitionists in the mid-19th century; had the north seceded first do you think the US, led by the southern states, would not have fought against it? The War of Southern Treason was itself precipitated, not by northern interference with southern slavery, but by attempts to limit its extension into the western territories, which the southern slaveowning elites fought tooth and nail.

    The slaver elite raised the hue and cry of states rights, and hypocritically of independence, even as they fought to keep millions of human beings in bondage, but did they support the principle of local control when what became West Virginia, some counties in Alabama, etc., sought to secede from them in turn? Of course not.

    When the northern states once again interfered with elitist white power through desegregation they were back to states rights, but note how their descendants didn’t care for states rights when it comes to marijuana legalization or gay marriage – until the tide turned on gay marriage at the federal level, and now they are once again on the side of states rights on that one.

    The bottom line is that the white southern elite is always for states rights and local control when it benefits their agenda, and always against states rights when it doesn’t. They don’t like states right when it comes to sanctuary cities, for instance.

    But you are right…the empire may break up in the next few decades. We shall see.

  288. Tony From Long Island

    Don “Whatchu talking about” Willis:

    You really should get out more. Maybe drive 400 miles southwest of Long Island and see what Virginians care about (and I mean real Virginians, not the wealth-sucking scum that lives in Arlington and Fairfax counties). Or maybe a cross-country road trip with lots of stops to see what America is all about.

    Virginians told us what they care about a few weeks ago (all Virginians, not just the ones you don’t like). If you want to continue to be an apologist for slavery, be my guest. The only person you embarrass is yourself.

    You have absolutely no idea where I have or have no travelled, so your post might win the award for the worst post of the day.

  289. Luke

    “your post might win the award for the worst post of the day.”

    I’m going to say that so far that would go to DJ. The competition is stiff, so stay tuned….

  290. DJ

    Luke
    November 20, 2017 at 13:57

    DJ, I have no idea what all that drivel means. Doesn’t look like there’s much to be gained from trying to figure it out, either.
    ……

    Luke
    November 20, 2017 at 15:20

    “your post might win the award for the worst post of the day.”

    I’m going to say that so far that would go to DJ. The competition is stiff, so stay tuned….
    ……………

    Pseudo-intellectual condescension isn’t a very strong argument, and does nothing to strengthen the “drivel” you’ve posted. IF you could counter the arguments, intellectually, you would. But you can’t so you lower yourself to ridicule. Pretty simple deducement to anyone with an open mind, which you’ve proven, again, you refuse to have. Why is that? Do I,or my “drivel” pose a threat to your well being? Your status amongst your like brethren? LOL….. if you can’t stand the heat, don’t go in the kitchen. Or, if you can’t argue your “drivel” don’t use it…..LOL. Or, better yet, have the state silence or punish me since I don’t agree with your “drivel”. LOL…..

  291. Luke

    “I’m going to say that so far that would go to DJ. The competition is stiff, so stay tuned….”

    …as to which of DJ’s comments takes the prize.

  292. DJ

    Pseudo-intellectual = intellectual dishonesty. Condescension = arrogant. Arrogant = ignorant.

    IF you had the ability to argue my points intellectually you would, but, you can’t so you pretend you’re above it. LOL…. = false arrogance which leads to pretentious, neither of which will change anyone’s mind or make any of your assessments any more right, including your comments about my comments.

    ROTFLMFAO.

  293. Don Wills

    Long Island Tony – It’s Wills, not Willis.

    Virginia is a microcosm of America — urban teat suckers vs. flyover wealth producers. Look at the two “great” cities of the east coast – NYC and DC – the world center of finance and the imperial city. The counties and independent cities adjacent to DC are nothing more than overflow housing for the bureaucracy that runs the empire (and fancy housing it is, just like that provided to all apparatchiks). And yes, they are why Virginia is the one southern state that tilts progressive/collectivist/socialist/Democratic (whatever label you prefer since you are so picky about labels). And then there’s NYC. Home of the banksters, the Wolves of Wall Street, the great scam artists of our time – conjuring money from nothing.

    The preceding paragraph is a quick synopsis of why I believe the empire’s years are numbered. When the world starts trading oil for anything other than US$, it’s over folks – the fat lady will be singing.

  294. DJ

    Don Wills
    November 20, 2017 at 18:11

    Long Island Tony – It’s Wills, not Willis.

    Virginia is a microcosm of America — urban teat suckers vs. flyover wealth producers. Look at the two “great” cities of the east coast – NYC and DC – the world center of finance and the imperial city. The counties and independent cities adjacent to DC are nothing more than overflow housing for the bureaucracy that runs the empire (and fancy housing it is, just like that provided to all apparatchiks). And yes, they are why Virginia is the one southern state that tilts progressive/collectivist/socialist/Democratic (whatever label you prefer since you are so picky about labels). And then there’s NYC. Home of the banksters, the Wolves of Wall Street, the great scam artists of our time – conjuring money from nothing.

    The preceding paragraph is a quick synopsis of why I believe the empire’s years are numbered. When the world starts trading oil for anything other than US$, it’s over folks – the fat lady will be singing.
    …………

    That last sentence is why we stay in perpetual war.

  295. Luke

    “urban teat suckers vs. flyover wealth producers. ”

    That’s just silly. Everything from high tech industries to the entertainment industry whose products are consumed all over the world to communications and biotech is concentrated in “blue” areas. Even a lot of high intensity agriculture is in states like California. The financial industry which Trump trumpets as the great indicator of overall national economic strength is based in New York.

    https://taxfoundation.org/states-rely-most-federal-aid/

    States differ in the amount of federal aid they receive. The top recipient of federal aid in FY 2014 was Mississippi, which relied on federal assistance for 40.9 percent of its revenue. Other states heavily reliant on federal assistance include Louisiana (40.1 percent), Tennessee (39.9 percent), Montana (39.1 percent), and Kentucky (38.5 percent). As we have previously noted, these states, and others that rely heavily on federal assistance, tend to have modest tax collections and a relatively large low-income population.

    Other states have comparatively low reliance on federal aid. North Dakota relies on federal assistance for only 16.8 percent of its general revenue. Other less-reliant states include Virginia (22.8 percent), Connecticut (24.6 percent), Nevada (24.8 percent), and Hawaii (24.8 percent). Trends in these states are opposite those in federal aid-heavy states; they typically have higher tax revenues and a smaller low-income population. Nevada is somewhat of an outlier, however, as it is able to export a large portion of its tax burden through sales taxes due to tourism. North Dakota is also able to export much of its tax burden, through severance taxes.

    There’s a map at the link which shows the rest of the states. The overall picture is for the most part the opposite of Don’s characterization of “urban teat suckers vs. flyover wealth producers. “

  296. Luke

    “The counties and independent cities adjacent to DC are nothing more than overflow housing for the bureaucracy that runs the empire”

    You are exaggerating. A large percentage of the population of those areas are neither wealthy nor government employees.

    “And yes, they are why Virginia is the one southern state that tilts progressive/collectivist/socialist/Democratic”

    Didn’t North Carolina just elect a Democratic governor? Alabama is within striking distance of electing a Democratic Senator.

    “conjuring money from nothing”

    You might think so, if you had no idea of the role of finance in making most types of business possible, allowing average people to become homeowners and send their kids to college, etc.

    “When the world starts trading oil for anything other than US$, it’s over folks – the fat lady will be singing.”

    Putinist wishful thinking/propaganda.

  297. Luke

    “Nope, that’s not it.
    …………

    Yep. It is.”

    I appreciate DJ’s input on which of his comments is the most ridiculous of the day, but I still think that one was not the one. Of course, the day isn’t over yet.

  298. paulie Post author

    Following the lead of the Birmingham area Young Republicans, the Alabama Young Republicans organization has pulled its endorsement of Moore.

  299. DJ

    “When the world starts trading oil for anything other than US$, it’s over folks – the fat lady will be singing.”

    Putinist wishful thinking/propaganda
    …………

    You have a better excuse for the never ending wars?

  300. DJ

    You might think so, if you had no idea of the role of finance in making most types of business possible, allowing average people to become homeowners and send their kids to college, etc.
    ,,,,,,,,,,

    Typical excuse from a pseudo-intellectual.

  301. Thane Eichenauer

    “Following the lead of the Birmingham area Young Republicans, the Alabama Young Republicans organization has pulled its endorsement of Moore.”

    What do those groups suggest people do intead of voting for Roy Moore? Stay home and not vote? Yea, right.
    Secede? Oh that would be a good one.

  302. DJ

    I appreciate DJ’s input on which of his comments is the most ridiculous of the day, but I still think that one was not the one. Of course, the day isn’t over yet.
    …………..

    Of course you’ll prove what post is ridiculous with facts. Right? Should be fairly easy for one as smart as you want us to believe you are. But, I’m not falling for your bullshit. I realize that upsets you, but, it is what it is.

  303. paulie Post author

    What do those groups suggest people do intead of voting for Roy Moore?

    As far as I know they leave that to the conscience of each voter.

    Stay home and not vote? Yea, right.

    I expect not a few people who voted for Strange in the primary will do exactly that. I also expect a lot of write-ins, even if they are not sanctioned by the people they are writing in, and a lot of crossover votes for Jones.

    Secede?

    No, they are not suggesting that.

  304. Don Wills

    Luke’s arguments are typical of a millennial, although I have no idea how old he/she is. Very wide on opinion but 1 inch deep on facts.

    Five highest income average counties in the USA –
    1 Loudoun County Virginia $117,876
    2 Fairfax County Virginia $112,436
    3 Howard County Maryland $108,844
    4 Hunterdon County New Jersey $105,186
    5 Arlington County Virginia $100,474

    Luke wrote “role of finance in making most types of business possible, allowing average people to become homeowners and send their kids to college, etc.”

    Home loans and student loans – mostly subsidized by federal government programs. Until 25 years ago, all student loans were private. Then the feds took over. Then the bankruptcy law was changed to make student debt non-dischargeable. All to create debt slaves for life for the sheep. And get this stat — student loans now make up 37 percent of the total assets of the U.S. government.

    I wrote “When the world starts trading oil for anything other than US$, it’s over folks – the fat lady will be singing.”

    Luke responded “Putinist wishful thinking/propaganda.”

    Nice name calling. Is invocation of Godwin’s Law next?

    Which part of the argument is wishful thinking (ie. won’t happen)?
    Choose 1.
    A. The world will start trading oil for other than US$.
    B. The life style of the typical American will crash when A happens.

    The argument about percentage of state government revenue provided by the feds is ridiculous on its face. There are a half dozen other measures of fed “giving”, for exmpale, per capita. Or in relation to federal contracts. Think Seattle – no, not Microsoft or Amazon – the two biggest employers are Boeing and Joint Base Lewis-McChord. Boeing has federal contracts of about $16 billion, more money than the feds gave to Mississippi in total.

    paulie – I decided to visit IPR after a few months away just to see how the LP fanboys were doing. To my surprise, IPR is yet another corner of the interwebs that has been taken over by a hive of collectivists. 🙁

  305. DJ

    Don Wills. Word of caution!!!

    I stopped by a few months back thinking I might find like minded individuals. Instead I find a bunch of leftist arguing about whose brand of libertarian is better than whose brand of libertarian more often than not. That said, this go-round dl has at least argued this particular topic with reason. The rest just argue because he’s a Republican which they associate with Trump, so it’s evil.

    No paulie. I don’t like Trump. But not liking and being obsessed is not the same.

    paulie decided is was best to ignore me. He convinced Toni, now he’s working on Luke. Of course Toni is a Democrat. By today’s standards Democrat is leftist and collectivist.

    You’ve no doubt noticed Luke won’t rebutt if he can’t make his narrative work. Narrative, by definition, Luke, is closed, i.e. narrow. In y’all’s case that would be ended with minded.

    But, it is entertaining to see the apoplectic in action. LOL….

  306. Luke

    “Luke’s arguments are typical of a millennial,”

    I wish I was that young, but I’m older than most of their parents. For most of my life to date I had not heard terms like “texting,” “cell phone,” or for that matter internet. I remember rotary phones being commonplace.

    “Home loans and student loans – mostly subsidized by federal government programs. Until 25 years ago, all student loans were private. Then the feds took over. Then the bankruptcy law was changed to make student debt non-dischargeable. All to create debt slaves for life for the sheep. And get this stat — student loans now make up 37 percent of the total assets of the U.S. government.”

    There are still many private loans for home ownership and students. Business typically start and expand with loans, and larger businesses survive and expand through issuing stock. People work and sock money away in the bank, in stocks and mutual funds, etc. The financial industry plays a big role in all of these things. Perhaps we could have a third world subsistence economy without the financial industry. Then again if you ditch the coasts you would also lose most of our international trade, much of our aerospace industry, a big chunk of our fisheries, large chunks of tourism and hospitality… the list goes on and on. The only productive people in the US are in flyover country and everyone else is a parasite? Come on.

    “Which part of the argument is wishful thinking (ie. won’t happen)?
    Choose 1.
    A. The world will start trading oil for other than US$.”

    That’s far from certain.

    “B. The life style of the typical American will crash when A happens.”

    Also far from certain, since we don’t know what other economic developments will take place in the meantime.

    “Think Seattle – no, not Microsoft or Amazon”

    Because they are insignificant? I suppose Starbucks is as well?

    Yeah, you’re right…all the productive economic activity is in Trump country.

  307. Luke

    Ironically, Don is posting his silly messages about how all of the productive economic activity is in “flyover country” on a computer, phone or some sort of internet device. I’m sure that no companies based in “blue states” had anything to do with the hardware or software he is using, the networks over which these messages are delivered, the financing to make any of it possible…

  308. Don Wills

    Luke’s arguments are getting weaker and weaker. His use of strawman arguments (“all productive activity is in Trump country”) and other completely irrelevant arguments (the fact that I’m using a computer) shows his complete lack on-point and defensible arguments.

  309. Luke

    You were the one who said “urban teat suckers vs. flyover wealth producers. ” I’m just addressing that argument.

  310. George Phillies

    “. The world will start trading oil for other than US$.””

    It already does and has for a long time. However, while I may pay for your price in Pounds, the rpice during negotiatiosn is quoted in dollarsso that people can tell more easily what is happening.

  311. Luke

    “In Moore news, Roy Moore’s then future and now current wife Kayla was a freshman and sophomore year high school classmate of Leigh Corfman’s. There is no indication how well they knew each other in the news story I read but I doubt it was a very big school so they most likely knew each other at least somewhat.

    Roy and Kayla Moore say they did not meet until she was well into her 20s, but maybe they actually met way back then?”

    Confirmed. I hadn’t read or heard this before, but I just saw Roy Moore on TV say that he first noticed his future wife Kayla at a dance recital when she was 15 or 16. Yet more proof that he was into teen girls, this time from the horse’s own ass.

  312. Don Wills

    George wrote –

    The world will start trading oil for other than US$.
    “It already does and has for a long time.”

    That’s simply not true. Oil contracts and payments for delivery are settled in dollars. Yes, a purchaser might want to use Euros or Yuan or Pounds, but they have to convert it to US$ before the transfer occurs if they want to buy from any country. That conversion is done by the money changers/banksters, then the money transfers via SWIFT between countries, even if it’s the same bank. Here’s a tutorial – https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/072915/how-petrodollars-affect-us-dollar.asp
    and here’s what happens when the fat lady sings –
    http://ftmdaily.com/preparing-for-the-collapse-of-the-petrodollar-system-part-3/

  313. Tony From Long Island

    Don Juan Wills:

    urban teat suckers vs. flyover wealth producers.

    My sincerest apologies for adding an “i” to your name.

    However, that might be the dumbest thing I have ever seen on this board – and that’s saying something as Andy is a frequent poster here.

  314. Tony From Long Island

    BJ:

    Toni is a Democrat. By today’s standards Democrat is leftist and collectivist.

    Hey, BJ, that’s “TONY.” . . . . I see you hit many of the robotic talking points. You forgot “Socialist” “Atheist,” and “Globalist.” I must be those things too.

  315. George Phillies

    And we likely heard it here last, too. Moore is running in Alabama, so he has a reasonable chance to win, though not more than that. Trump has a plausible path to re-election, namely he will be running against a Democrat with an actual name and record. Moore getting the Republican Presidential nomination in 2024 is highly unlikely.

  316. paulie Post author

    It looks like we are getting trolled by fash in this thread again. Please do not respond to them. Several comments removed last night and this morning..

  317. Tony From Long Island

    Paulie, Trump endorsed Luther Strange, who lost . . . . He endorsed Gillespie, who lost . . .

    I honestly think Doug Jones will win. Alabama can’t really be THAT stupid, can they?

  318. Thane Eichenauer

    Tony commented: “Alabama can’t really be THAT stupid, can they?”

    It is a mark of intelligence to vote against the candidate that the Powers That Be intensely dislike? I am sure that the establishment media and all the smart coffee clubs agree that voting for Doug Jones is the only intelligent choice.
    I have my doubts. I think that Moore might be the 3rd least disappointing Senator.
    Here’s to hoping that Ron Bishop’s songmercial takes off.

  319. DJ

    Thane Eichenauer
    November 21, 2017 at 18:19

    Tony commented: “Alabama can’t really be THAT stupid, can they?”

    It is a mark of intelligence to vote against the candidate that the Powers That Be intensely dislike?
    ………..

    Not of he’s a Republican.

    ……………….

    I am sure that the establishment media and all the smart coffee clubs agree that voting for Doug Jones is the only intelligent choice.
    ………..

    But he’s a Democrat. Pure as the driven snow they are.

    Pelosi calls for ethics investigation into alleged Conyers sexual harassment LOL

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/conyers-denies-reaching-harassment-settlement-after-buzzfeed-report/2017/11/21/cc514762-ced5-11e7-9d3a-bcbe2af58c3a_story.html?utm_term=.3fb59464dd5f
    ……….

    Rep. John Conyers revises his response to sexual harassment complaints

    I have long been and continue to be a fierce advocate for equality in the workplace and I fully support the rights of employees who believe they have been harassed or discriminated against to assert claims against their employers,” Conyers said.

    The statement continued:

    “That said, it is important to recognize that the mere making of an allegation does not mean it is true. The process must be fair to both the employee and the accused. The current media environment is bringing a much-needed focus to the important issue of preventing harassment in workplaces across the country. However, equally important to keep in mind in this particular moment is the principle of due process and that those accused of wrongdoing are presumed innocent unless and until an investigation establishes otherwise. In our country, we strive to honor this fundamental principle that all are entitled to due process. In this case, I expressly and vehemently denied the allegations made against me, and continue to do so. My office resolved the allegations – with an express denial of liability – in order to save all involved from the rigors of protracted litigation. That should not be lost in the narrative. The resolution was not for millions of dollars, but rather for an amount that equated to a reasonable severance payment. There are statutory requirements of confidentiality that apply to both the employee and me regarding this matter. To the extent the House determines to look further at these issues, I will fully cooperate with an investigation.”

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-rep-john-conyers-settled-complaint-over-sexual-conduct/

  320. Luke

    No one is saying Democrats are pure as the driven snow, not even Democrats, much less anyone here. Only 12% of Democrats surveyed say they are willing to vote for someone accused of sex crimes now, but over 40% of Republicans said they are. And yet again which Democrats are accused of attempted oral rape of a 16 year old, sexually touching a 14 year old and were banned from the town mall for serially harassing teenage girls? Let’s stop the false equivalence.

    ” I think that Moore might be the 3rd least disappointing Senator.”

    Trump says that Jones is soft on crime (although actually Moore is soft on sex crime, as a judge) – meaning Jones is for criminal justice reform – that Jones is “weak” on the military and “weak” on the border. That means Jones is better than Moore on all of the issues that Trump says are the most important in the race.

    I’m going to go ahead and agree with Tony that it’s not smart to vote for a creep who gets banned from the mall for harassing young girls who then went on to get booted from the bench twice for flouting the rule of law. Does that mean Alabamians won’t do it? Well, Alabamians elected George Wallace, Bull Connor, Guy Hunt, Robert Bentley, Troy King… so most likely they will elect Roy Moore too. Which is a real shame.

  321. DJ

    LOL…. I’ve yet to see an article here denouncing any democrat, but lots of statements calling Republicans evil, and as far as false equivalency goes, tell that to paulie who calls Trump a Nazi, or calls people he disagrees with trolls or fash…. or you referring to people who disagree with what you believe Nazi. LOL.

  322. DJ

    Tony From Long Island
    November 21, 2017 at 08:24

    BJ:

    Toni is a Democrat. By today’s standards Democrat is leftist and collectivist.

    Hey, BJ, that’s “TONY.” . . . . I see you hit many of the robotic talking points. You forgot “Socialist” “Atheist,” and “Globalist.” I must be those things too.
    ……….

    Toni, Democrats by today’s standards are leftist and subscribe to today’s leftist standards. The leftist Republicans subscribe to “Globalist” as well, but, by and large “socialist” are associated with Democrats.
    That is collectivist.

  323. Luke

    Apparently DJ, despite his advanced age, still has the juvenile mindset that feminizing a man’s name is some sort of insult (never mind an argument or discussion, as that would be far too much to ask for). Sad.

  324. DJ

    The double standard you use, Luke, is very telling.

    Show me where I’m wrong, in anything I’ve said.

  325. paulie Post author

    “When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”

    It has come, in the form of Trump hypocritically wrapped in a US flag (made in China) and Roy Moore who is always carrying his cross around – that is, when he’s not climbing up on it.

  326. dL

    LOL…. I’ve yet to see an article here denouncing any democrat, but lots of statements calling Republicans evil, and as far as false equivalency goes

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2016/11/liberation-news-bill-clinton-inc-exposed/

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2016/10/starchild-happy-halloween-the-latest-from-wikileaks-on-hillary-clinton-donald-trumps-greatest-hits-scandal-cheat-sheet/

    .
    .
    .
    etc

    I could spend all night combing the archives for posted articles bashing the democrats…

  327. dL

    It has come, in the form of Trump hypocritically wrapped in a US flag (made in China) and Roy Moore who is always carrying his cross around – that is, when he’s not climbing up on it.

    It was already here…

  328. dL

    Don Juan Wills:

    Don Juan is an anachronistic term for “libertine.” Today, we would say playa. Willis has never claimed to be a playa. Although, to be frank, I consider playa to be a compliment. Not everyone can pull it off.

  329. dL

    That said, this go-round dl has at least argued this particular topic with reason.

    Is there a topic which I have failed to argue with reason?

    Instead I find a bunch of leftist arguing about whose brand of libertarian is better than whose brand of libertarian more often than not.

    There only a few people on this site who might self-identify as leftist. Btw, “leftist” does mean democrat or progressive. It generally refers to social equality, a deep concern for social injustice, opposition to social hierarchy/authority and secularization. Personally, I view libertarianism as the most radical branch of leftism. But not everyone in the libertarian movement takes that position.

  330. Tony From Long Island

    DJ

    Toni, Democrats by today’s standards are leftist and subscribe to today’s leftist standards. The leftist Republicans subscribe to “Globalist” as well, but, by and large “socialist” are associated with Democrats.
    That is collectivist.

    *yawn* did you say something? 🙂 thanks for clearing up your tired talking points for me.

  331. Tony From Long Island

    dL

    By today’s standards Democrat is leftist center-right and collectivist.

    You and I likely agree on many issues. I am a Democrat. However, I would by no means consider myself center-right. Maybe twenty years ago when I still clung to the LP.

    I realize you were describing Democrats in general as center-right. I respectfully disagree.

  332. Don Wills

    dL – another typo calling me a Willis. That’s OK, it’s a mistake that happens frequently.

    I take exception to your attempt at re-defining the word “leftist”. Because single winner, first past the post elections almost guarantee two very dominant political parties, the distinction between those parties is usually something easily differentiated like Red/Blue or Up/Down or Left/Right. In the US House, the left side and right side of the chamber are partitioned by party, thus a reference to left/right is literally the left side and right side of the chamber, and D == Left and R == Right. The different principles of the parties range from social conservatism (e.g. no gay marriage) to social liberalism (e.g. gay marriage) to government control of various institutions (Rs want privatization, Ds want government funding/control for education and provision of health care). And the terms far-left and far-right mean nothing more than a VERY strong commitment to such principles, not a change in basic principles.

    Libertarianism simply doesn’t fit anywhere on a two dimensional space. It’s a third dimension, as the Nolan Chart so concisely conveys. To try to put it somewhere on the left/right line begs the question of why.

    My gripe is that you try to redefine libertarianism as radical leftism, first dismissing the term “leftist” as not meaning Democrat or progressive. I doubt you could get more than 1 in 20 people to agree with such a definition. Libertarianism is more honestly equated with anarchism, not the left/right naming/paradigm of today’s political parties.

    Words mean something, and if there is no common agreement on the definition of words, there can be no discourse to implement a representative form of government or diplomacy between governments. Such situations usually result in revolution and war, which is what I expect to happen to the US sometime in the net 25 years.

  333. DJ

    Luke
    November 21, 2017 at 21:01

    Been there, done that, again and again, got bored with it.
    …………

    You tried, once, and failed then accused me of not being able to argue a point.

  334. DJ

    dL
    November 21, 2017 at 23:36

    LOL…. I’ve yet to see an article here denouncing any democrat, but lots of statements calling Republicans evil, and as far as false equivalency goes

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2016/11/liberation-news-bill-clinton-inc-exposed/

    http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2016/10/starchild-happy-halloween-the-latest-from-wikileaks-on-hillary-clinton-donald-trumps-greatest-hits-scandal-cheat-sheet/

    .
    .
    .
    etc

    I could spend all night combing the archives for posted articles bashing the democrats…
    ……………..

    2 links, from 2016. Like I said earlier; IF I were to just drop by (which I did) I would see only articles hatefully bashing Republicans. I didn’t, and won’t go through the archives and I doubt anyone would who was just dropping in looking for like minded people believing they were dealing with libertarians.

  335. DJ

    paulie Post author
    November 21, 2017 at 21:07

    “When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”

    It has come, in the form of Trump hypocritically wrapped in a US flag (made in China) and Roy Moore who is always carrying his cross around – that is, when he’s not climbing up on it.
    …………….

    No Democrat would ever wrap themselves in the flag? FYI, I don’t disagree with your assessment here. Just your tunnel vision.

  336. DJ

    dL
    November 22, 2017 at 00:21

    That said, this go-round dl has at least argued this particular topic with reason.

    Is there a topic which I have failed to argue with reason?

    Instead I find a bunch of leftist arguing about whose brand of libertarian is better than whose brand of libertarian more often than not.

    There only a few people on this site who might self-identify as leftist. Btw, “leftist” does mean democrat or progressive. It generally refers to social equality, a deep concern for social injustice, opposition to social hierarchy/authority and secularization. Personally, I view libertarianism as the most radical branch of leftism. But not everyone in the libertarian movement takes that position.
    ………………….

    Yes. paulie, and no “might” about it. I did state, more than once; “by today’s standards” Democrats and those on the left are seen as socialists, which has to involve social hierarchy with a few being more equal than others (creating a social injustice) with no chance of being one of the few, explicitly, not generally (though that could be argued) which is a collective, which is 180 out from individual rights.

    Also, as I’ve previously stated, the commenters here are precisely why I refuse to be associated with ANY party. The collective attitude of “party” means, by definition, a disrespecting of the individual, and the vitriol of the accepted “leaders” here against Republicans (paulie) is exactly like Republicans I used to argue *against* in another forum, and like those Republicans refusing to acknowledge their own flaws and pointing a finger at others for perceived flaws leaves 3 fingers pointing at the accuser of said flaws.
    (see Luke’s latest double standard) for corroboration.

    Personally I view libertarian as an advocate of individual rights, a philosophy of life, which will create everything you listed above, and not invoke, imply, or desire or have any way to be associated with the collective, i.e., socialist or any of the other models of disrespect for individuals, or any right/left divide tool used expressly for the purpose of *control*.

  337. DJ

    Democrats (in DC) pay lip service to their base (collectivist SJW etc).
    Republicans (in DC) pay lip service to their base (red, white and blue rah,rah,rah)

    BOTH subscribe to the same monetary policy, and the same foreign policy, both of which drive domestic policy.

    Anyone who can’t see that is not nearly as politically astute as they believe themselves to be.

  338. Tony From Long Island

    DJ

    No Democrat would ever wrap themselves in the flag

    I don’t know why I keep responding to you, but this type of utter nonsense gets to me.

    I don’t need to show you how big my flag is to prove that I love my country.

    No one ever complains who people on the right denigrate the flag by using it as clothing. There are actually rules against that sort of thing . . .

    I kept a flag with me all day last November 10th – as I wore all black and mourned. I knew my country was better than that.

  339. paulie Post author

    I take exception to your attempt at re-defining the word “leftist”.

    dL’s definition is the historically accurate one. You are defining “left” and “right” only by a narrow focus on the US political scene, whereas dL and I are looking at a more global and historical perspective.

  340. paulie Post author

    Been there, done that, again and again, got bored with it.

    So stop replying to him. It is a 100% waste of time and only encourages him. As you can see by now it’s like talking to a wall. Don’t you have better things to do?

  341. DJ

    Yes paulie you’re absolutely right. Ignoring opposing views will change the facts.

    As for your “globally” comment. BFD. The U.S. is where we live and leftist here want a socialist society, and if I’m not mistaken so do those in other parts of the world in which many of them already dwell in/under. Democrat politicians pay lip service to it while subscribing to neoliberalist policy (from the 60’s, which would be “historically” FYI), commonly referred to as neocon, i.e., same monetary policy, same foreign policy which drives domestic policy and enhances the hegemony and imperialistic desire backed by the U.S. Military. Well, except those who were for it before they were against it….LOL, the more equal as it were.

    I asked Luke, I’ll ask you to disprove anything I’ve said. But, like Luke, you can’t, which is why you want everyone to ignore me. That will disprove my knowledge, right?! LOL. What it won’t do id stop me from calling out the hypocrisy of leftist.

  342. Tony From Long Island

    SOCIALISM: a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

    I know pretty much no one in this country who thinks that the government should own the means of production.

  343. paulie Post author

    The more traditional definition I have seen is that the workers would own the means of production. Regardless of whether it’s workers or community, government (in the sense of state or regime) has proven itself a very poor proxy for that. I don’t support any form of socialism, although I do support the right of socialists to form their own communities as long as no one is compelled to join or stay.

  344. paulie Post author

    Remember it’s not just the nine women, it’s dozens of their friends and relatives who say they were told about it at the time or over the years, people who worked at the mall, people who worked with Moore in the DA’s office, current or former security guards and cops…it just goes on an on. Are all of them part of a conspiracy just making stuff up about Moore? I don’t think so.

  345. paulie Post author

    LOL from the above story

    In remaining defiant, Moore, criticizing Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), tweeted last week to “bring it on” — an unfortunate choice of words, because, as many pointed out, “Bring It On” is the title of a popular movie about high school cheerleaders.

  346. paulie Post author

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/11/22/trump-says-man-who-helped-convict-klan-members-in-race-bombing-case-is-soft-on-crime/?utm_term=.be1c2e755072

    Doug Jones, the Democratic Senate candidate in Alabama, made his name as a U.S. attorney in the late 1990s when he successfully prosecuted two members of the Ku Klux Klan for the notorious 1963 bombing of a Birmingham church that killed four black girls.

    The two men were convicted in cases that drew national attention; Bobby Frank Cherry died in prison 2004; Thomas Blanton remains incarcerated on a life sentence.

    So it came as a surprise to many that President Trump attacked the aspiring senator as “soft on crime.”

    “I can tell you for a fact we do not need somebody that’s going to be bad on crime, bad on borders, bad with the military,” Trump said in a brief statement to reporters in which he seemed to tacitly endorse Republican candidate Roy Moore. “You don’t need somebody who’s soft on crime like Jones.”

  347. paulie Post author

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/11/21/santorum_very_high_chance_roy_moore_would_be_expelled_from_senate.html

    http://ballot-access.org/2017/11/22/stan-brand-former-general-counsel-to-the-u-s-house-doubts-u-s-senate-has-authority-to-expel-roy-moore-if-moore-is-elected/

    http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/361484-ex-rnc-chair-trumps-comments-on-roy-moore-beyond-stupid

    https://www.mediaite.com/tv/seth-meyers-hits-trump-for-backing-roy-moore-sexual-predators-of-a-feather-flock-together/

  348. Thane Eichenauer

    From the Huffington Post article: Police Were Told To Keep Roy Moore Away From High School Cheerleaders, Retired Officer Says

    “She also said that while working on juvenile cases as an officer, she never received a formal complaint about Moore.”

    Tales and anecdotal testimony from 28 years ago. A fine example of what Scott Adams would describe as people watching the two different movies on the same screen.

    http://blog.dilbert.com/2017/02/12/good-example-of-our-two-movie-reality/

    Akin to when Morpeus explained The Matrix to Neo except THERE IS NO RED PILL.

    “You take the blue pill, the story ends. You wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.”

    If you aren’t inclined to believe that Roy Moore is an alleged rayyypist before this special election no interview with an alleged retired female police officer is going to convice you. These days Team Red is innoculated from such “unbiased testimony”. “You expect ME to believe WORDS found on a BLUE TEAM web site? Really?!? Really!

    https://www.hulu.com/watch/147969

    Basically paulie, you and yours can’t convince us with your alleged reality and we can’t convince you with our alleged reality. Each side thinks their pill is red. I’m going with the famous line from Cicero.

    “What difference, at this point, does it make?”

    What you say? That was Hillary Clinton? Naw that was Cicero. I saw it on Huffington Post!

    Déjà vu? Did I just see a black cat? Nawwwwww. Tis just a glitch in The Matrix.

  349. Luke

    Thane forgets that not everyone is on “team blue” or “team red” 100% of the time. Some of us still have a working brain, like many of the Republican or Republican-leaning women of Alabama, especially those under age 45, college educated and/or living in the suburbs. Thane is absolutely correct that there are some people who have their eyes and ears glued to the “anecdotal testimony” of dozens and dozens of people but they are not by themselves the majority, even in Alabama. If Moore is going to win, he will need the support – and the turnout – of most of those Luther Strange primary voters and some of the more moderate Republican-leaning independents.

    Go do your own google news search for Roy Moore, and you’ll find there is more than a little skepticism of Roy Moore in those quarters, that in fact he was never very popular with them and has become less so since the allegations have surfaced.

  350. paulie Post author

    Basically paulie, you and yours

    Um what? I’m for Ron Bishop, in fact now that I am here I think I will actually go campaign for him. I’m pretty experienced in on the ground campaigning, and I have some time on my hands the next few weeks.

  351. paulie Post author

    Thane forgets that not everyone is on “team blue” or “team red” 100% of the time. Some of us still have a working brain, like many of the Republican or Republican-leaning women of Alabama, especially those under age 45, college educated and/or living in the suburbs.

    Good point.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/republican-women-in-alabama-begin-to-turn-on-roy-moore

    B.L. Shirley is a Republican woman from a Republican county who always—always—votes Republican. And yet, on a windy, grey morning last weekend, the Talladega, Alabama, retiree found herself in, of all places, a Democrat’s campaign office, wondering just what she could do to defeat the GOP candidate running for a seat in the U.S. Senate from her state.

    ….

    A Republican and a Christian, Foster voted for Sen. Luther Strange (R-AL) in the special election primary and said she plans to cast her ballot for Jones in the general. She considers Roy Moore “an abomination.”

    “Our historically Republican-leaning suburb is covered with Doug Jones signs. I have seen one for Roy Moore,” said Foster, a mother of two teenage boys who lives in a suburb of Birmingham. “He is more about his personal agenda and less about what is good for the state of Alabama. He does not seem interested in working with anyone. He has refused to debate and defend his positions publicly. When you add the nine accusations—nine!—it is clear he is unfit for office.”
    ….

    Sheila Gilbert, the chair of the Calhoun County Democratic Party, said she’s heard from a number of unhappy Republican women since the allegations against Moore came to light in The Washington Post several weeks ago. She believes that those woman, and that story, have fundamentally changed the course of the Senate race.

    “I worked on a phone bank the other night with women calling women and a lot of women just wanted to talk,” Gilbert said. “They were saying they were Republicans and they’re going to vote for Doug Jones. They are appalled. I’ve heard a lot of that.”

    A Fox News poll released last Friday showed that Gilbert’s phone bank conversations may reflect a larger trend taking place across the state. In the poll, Jones had an eight point lead over Moore—50 percent to 42 percent—much of it owed to his lopsided support from women, especially young women voters. While Jones was up 58-32 percent among all women, he had a monster 49-point advantage among women under age 45. Jones also received about one-fifth, 19 percent, of the votes of Republican women.

    Strategists on both sides believe the race will come down to whether Jones can convince suburban Republican women from the state’s larger cities, like Birmingham, that Moore is, simply, unacceptable.

    I think there’s an opportunity to convince a lot of them to at least consider voting for Ron Bishop if they knew he is an option. Reaching enough of them with that message is going to be an issue, though.

  352. Luke

    Paulie

    You don’t understand. Just like the nine accusers (and counting) and dozens of other people corroborating their accounts, all of those Republican women who are not backing Roy Moore are part of the fake media conspiracy against Roy Moore which involves at least half of the polling companies and organizations …

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-roy-moore-losing/

    Opinion Savvy 46% 46% 0

    Gravis Marketing 46 48 -2

    Change Research 40 44 -4

    Emerson College 40 49 -9

    JMC Analytics 48 44 +4

    Strategy Research 43 49 -6

    Fox News 50 42 +8

    Gravis Marketing 47 42 +5

    Change Research 46 43 +3

    Strategy Research 45 47 -2

    Average 45 45 0

    …most of Moore’s would be Republican colleagues in the US Senate, and far left America-hating fake news liberal media outfits such as Fox News which conducted the poll you mentioned. Women always lie, like the women who accused Donald Trump, the women who accused Roy Moore and the made up Republican women who are lying to far left Fox News that they are not going to vote for Roy Moore, that is if these alleged women even exist. The far left socialists at Fox News probably made them up along with all those Jones yard signs in the well off, mostly white and usually solid Republican Alabama suburbs. Fake news!

  353. Luke

    I’m trying to decide whether it’s fake news that Roy Moore told Hannity he “generally” didn’t date high school girls when he was in his 30s, but when he did he asked their mothers for permission, or that he was first captivated by his future wife Kayla when she was fifteen and a high school classmate of at least one of the accusers. That’s probably fake news too.

  354. Luke

    “interview with an alleged retired female police officer ”

    So which part do you not believe…that she exists, that she was a police officer or that she said what the interviewer says she said?

    “She also said that while working on juvenile cases as an officer, she never received a formal complaint about Moore.”

    That’s not surprising. There were no formal complaints about Bill Cosby for decades either.

    “These days Team Red is innoculated from such “unbiased testimony”. “You expect ME to believe WORDS found on a BLUE TEAM web site? Really?!? Really!

    Basically paulie, you and yours can’t convince us with your alleged reality and we can’t convince you with our alleged reality.”

    Wait I’m confused. Aren’t we all on Team Gold here? I know I am. My ballot will not be cast for Moore or Jones on Dec 12. Paulie says he is on Team Gold. Thane said earlier that he would vote for Bishop too if he lived in Alabama, which indicated he is on Team Gold. Although, Thane also said Moore would be the “third least disappointing Senator” (who are the two least disappointing, I wonder?). But now Thane says

    you and yours can’t convince us

    Which indicates that not only does he think several of us here who are on Team Gold are actually on Team Blue, but that he actually considers himself to be on Team Red. Perhaps Thane needs to figure out which team he is on?

  355. Thane Eichenauer

    Hey Luke,
    The point I am making has nothing to do with which person is our favorite candidate.
    There are two kinds of people in this world. One is either predisposed to believing what words the Washington Post and the Huffington Post publish. Then there are the rest of us.

    Take a look at what Roy Moore is selling and compare it to what Doug Jones is offering.
    “Tomorrow, as we gather together to give thanks to Almighty God for the virtue and abundance of this great nation, let us all strive to keep this quintessentially American tradition sacred. #ALSen (1/2)”
    https://twitter.com/MooreSenate/status/933500797287129089

    Did I mention that Ron Bishop has a songmercial?
    https://youtu.be/NItP2vc3IWM

  356. Luke

    “There are two kinds of people in this world. One is either predisposed to believing what words the Washington Post and the Huffington Post publish. Then there are the rest of us.”

    Or a thousand other media outlets including Fox, or dozens of polls, or dozens of corroborating witnesses. All fake news, right? Still trying to figure out whether what Roy Moore said himself about being enchanted with his future wife when she was 15 and he was 30-something or about dating high school girls when he was 30-something with the permission of their mothers was fake news too. I mean, it did come out of his mouth, but maybe the fake news organizations at Fox and a few others were fooled by a Roy Moore impersonator. You never know. By the way that former police officer was also on TV just in case you thought HuffPo invented her. She has a fabulous blonde afro.

    “Take a look at what Roy Moore is selling”

    I’ve done my due diligence. He stands for things like outlawing homosexuality and banning Muslims from running for office, trade protectionism, abortion restrictions, Confederate nostalgia, making his version of Christianity the law of the land, and as Trump says he is “tough on crime” (except as his record as judge reveals for sex crimes defendants), “strong on the military” and “strong on the border.” So, those are just a few of the issues where he is the worst candidate in the race.

    “Tomorrow, as we gather together to give thanks to Almighty God for the virtue and abundance of this great nation, let us all strive to keep this quintessentially American tradition sacred. #ALSen (1/2)”

    I guess he is not a big fan of justice for Native Americans either. But hey, bible thumping and meaningless patriotic platitudes erase the stigma of being thrown off the bench twice and being a serial sexual predator against children with at least nine accusers so far and dozens of corroborating witnesses, right?

    “Did I mention that Ron Bishop has a songmercial?”

    You sure did, a few times. Personally I like his 30 second ad better. Too bad it’s not all over TV like those Doug Jones ads. You can’t get away from them or all the Doug Jones yard signs all over Hoover, Mountain Brook, Vestavia, North Shelby county….

    But I like Ron Bishop’s 30 second ad which Paulie posted in this thread way back on
    November 10, 2017 at 20:42. It’s actually not bad. Maybe some of you could help Ron Bishop get it on the air.

    https://ron-lpalabama.nationbuilder.com/donate

  357. John

    Thane Eichenauer
    November 12, 2017 at 12:32

    “Roy Moore will be elected. What happens after that I don’t know. ”

    Well Thane gotta hand it to you for the bold prediction. Since you are so dang sure about the pivotal US Senate race in Alabama, do you have a prediction for the other upcoming big contest in Alabama mentioned in the title of this post, the Iron Bowl game between in-state rivals #1 ranked Alabama and #6 ranked Auburn, a contest as pivotal in the eyes of sports fans nationwide as the Alabama Senate race this year is to political junkies? While we are at it do you have any other football picks for this weekend? Since those come before the Senate race we might could use those to see how much stock to put in your Senate race pick.

  358. paulie Post author

    But I like Ron Bishop’s 30 second ad which Paulie posted in this thread way back on
    November 10, 2017 at 20:42. It’s actually not bad.

    Might as well play it again, it’s been 12 days and for all of y’all that don’t feel like scrolling way up there….

  359. dL

    I realize you were describing Democrats in general as center-right. I respectfully disagree.

    Well, you are free to disagree. But you would have a difficult time defending that position to anyone who doesn’t accept marginal tax rate preferences as the primary delineation between left and right.

  360. dL

    2 links, from 2016. Like I said earlier

    Actually, I could have spent all night posting links that bashed democrats. To be fair, a lot of them would have been about Hillary Clinton. Just like most of the republican bashing posts(> 2106) center around Trump. I imagine any perceived republican bashing bias relative to democratic bashing is the result of Trump actually being elected and holding power. If Clinton had won, the perceived bashing bias would have been reversed. That being said, looking over the last 20 or 30 posted articles, there is only one posted article that has Trump in the headline.

  361. Mark

    RE: John
    Luke, John…Mark? Matthew?

    I’m predicting an Auburn win. Alabama has a lot of injuries at this point in the season, and has had a relatively easy schedule despite its impressive 11-0 record. However, Alabama did have to escape by the skin of its teeth in the Mississippi State game, barely avoiding overtime in the last seconds of the game. Meanwhile Auburn, despite two losses earlier this year, is hitting its stride late in the season. Its impressive win over then #1 ranked Georgia is a preview of what Alabama will face this Saturday.

    US Senate race? Hell if I know.

  362. Peter

    nah, wrong apostle…it was a rhetorical exhortation to a certain other apostle

    Thomas (L. Knapp)? Andrew (Jacobs)?

  363. paulie Post author

    Since you are so dang sure about the pivotal US Senate race in Alabama, do you have a prediction for the other upcoming big contest in Alabama mentioned in the title of this post, the Iron Bowl game between in-state rivals #1 ranked Alabama and #6 ranked Auburn

    The “red team” with the elephant mascot will win both of them.

  364. dL

    I take exception to your attempt at re-defining the word “leftist”.’

    I’m not redefining the term. I simply refuse to allow either conservatives(or progressives, for that matter) to redefine it.

    Because single winner, first past the post elections almost guarantee two very dominant political parties, the distinction between those parties is usually something easily differentiated like Red/Blue or Up/Down or Left/Right

    True, winner take all political systems do enforce a political duality of sorts. However, left/right is not the accurate depiction of that duality. One side or the other in such a divide would have to dominate to avoid revolutionary conflict. The few times that you have actually have seen such a left/right division in the legislature or assembly, e.g, France, revolution has soon followed. To me, it is nonsense to try to model political conflict in American history as a left/right struggle.

  365. Thane Eichenauer

    Luke,
    Has anybody told you that retired female police officers can lie? I’ve corrected a lie told by a police officer in court myself after which he corrected his testimony. People can tell lies deliberately or inadvertently. I don’t believe people simply because they appear on a broadcast video.

    As for polls, I *care* *nothing* for them. Polls are not a reliable predictor for either truth or future performance.

    Here in Arizona they took a poll on the guilt of Roy Krone. The question basically asked (12 jurors) Did the defendant rape then brutally murder that bar waitress? It took three trials to get a correct answer on that polled question.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Krone

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