The program is scheduled for Wednesday, May 6th from 7PM to 8PM East Coast Time. To listen live, or after the webcast, click here. To participate in the show on Wednesday dial (646) 478-3778. Cavlan says he has plans to bring someone representing the other side of his position onto the show, but will be able to take calls as well.
Steve
Thanks, although this Irishman does not drink (I know, it is fookin’ sacrilege)
I was in the Erie and Seneca Counties of Ohio in 2004. Drove from Minnesota to do the re-count.
Michael Cavlan: I f you worked the Ohio 2004 recount, we may have met. If you came to Columbus.
I organized the recount in an Appalachian county where we found some rather serious problems, though the recount did go smoothly enough.
If your passing through, I’ll buy ya’ a beer!
PEACE
There’re some really cool role models from the early feminist movement, actually. You should check out Voltairine DeClare. There was also a newspaper full of naughty information on things such as birth control put out called Lucifer the Lightbearer.
These folks tended to be individualist anarchists, rather than pro-state progressives of today. The feminist movement of today seems to be more about Womens’ Rights. The movement of that day was about Equal Rights.
And that’s where I place myself. I’m all about Equal Rights for all humans. As soon as we talk about Womens Rights or Gay Rights or whatever else, we’re essentially calling women or gays seperate. Seperate but equal sucks. 😉
MDH
You and I are PWT Pooh White Trash.
I have often stated that I am PWT and damned proud of it. That would make a great bumper sticker.
//:-)>——-
I do hear and understand your position and even applaud what you are saying. I just hold that there is more needed than just people, one on one changing relationships.
Let me put it this way. It has been said that Kimberley can hold her own.
True statement.
However, if Kim is in a political discussion with say a 300 pound meathead, who uses his POWER to intimidate and even harm Kim, then Kim needs help to level the playing field. She may even call in the police to save her.
That is how I view racism, classism and sexism.
In that context, I feel a moral and political responsibility to ensue that the Kim’s of the world remain threat free. Even to the point of using state forces (cops) to ensure it.
The day that the meatheads of the world do not abuse their size and power to dominate, threaten or even harm, then there is no need for police.
Now take away the meathead and replace it with the SYSTEM of racism, sexism and classism and you have my and other “non-classical liberalism” folks.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again – *most* of the time, Libertarians and other third parties including the Greens see the same problems. We have different ideas on how to solve them. Libertarians stay away from the use of state force. Others believe the state can be used for good instead of evil.
I’ll take that over Democrats and Republicans any day, most of whom won’t even admit to the existence of the problems we see, and all too often jump at the chance to use state force for evil.
The problem of racism is complex, but over the years, I’ve seen state intervention in race relations make things worse, not better. What has made things better is regular old human beings going out and meeting and being friends with one another.
I still wish Kimberly would address my questions directly. Of course, she and others are always welcome to put hard questions to me, as well, and I’ll answer them as openly and honestly as I would anyone, anywhere, any time. The only thing I really take offense to is that somehow white people all have prejudices. These rash generalizations may be true for Kimberly, but to generalize the way she does, she is trying to speak for me and every other white person. I don’t really appreciate it, and it isn’t true in my case. Perhaps if Kimberly had grown up where/how I did, she would not have such prejudices either?
I’ve been willing to share a lot about my personal background here – that I would be considered at best “lower middle class” or probably just “poor”, that I live in a trailer in a racially diverse neighborhood, that I work at a relatively low paying job and am a union member, that I do not have “savings” but am able to pay my bills, etc. Mr. Cavlan has also shared some of his personal story and circumstances, which I find fascinating, and would imagine that he probably has a lot of unique personal experiences to draw on to form his opinions. I do hope Kimberly will choose to do the same for us.
MDH
You are a lying racist whore.
//:-P>——
J/K. I have a lot of respect for libertarians and your positions even as I disagree with you and them.
Kimberley, you are doing a fine job holding up your position. You do not need me to tell you that, though.
//:-)>———-
So rather than engage in intellectual discourse on the subject, you’d prefer to dismiss what I say as frightening, then go back to making statements like “I personally believe that all white people in our culture who cannot acknowledge that they have prejudice and privilege, and do not work to correct racism, are racist.” – basically stating quite plainly that you believe all white people “have prejudice”.
That’s rather sad. It’s unfortunate that you lack the confidence in your own arguments to address my questions directly. This seems to be a hallmark of lying politicians when they get on the media. Instead of actually talking issues and addressing questions, go on the attack and avoid the hard questions. Libertarians, on the other hand, don’t do this. I’ve never had a question posed to me here which I didn’t address directly.
I think a lot of people respect that about Libertarians.
Dear mdh:
Much of what you write is frightening and not worth responding to.
I will say that when I wrote:
-I have a right to say “Our society is corrupt. And, any white man inside it, who does not take a certain amount of his life to fight for social justice is wrong.”
And, no one should take that personally. Unless they know that they don’t do enough for social justice.-
I should probably have not said “white man”, I should have said “white person.” It was partially because of the blending of arguments about sexism, and partially because of who I was arguing with.
I am not claiming that men are more racist than women.
I personally believe that all white people in our culture who cannot acknowledge that they have prejudice and privilege, and do not work to correct racism, are racist.
I do not refute the argument that some people put forward that: “All white people are racists and black people cannot be racist.” I am not clear that I support that argument. But, I can see that it might be true. And, as a white person, I believe that black people – who are more oppressed than me in our culture – have a right to such theories.
Also, I am considering writing a country song, or at least a poem…
“If I am a racist, you must be a cheating whore.”
I am sure it could make the charts.
That is about the most I will respond to mdh, and probably much more than I should.
We dont ban here. Anyone can say anything–they can even criticize me, and do, often enough. I’v been called everything: racist, white supremacist, communist, left-winger, right-winger, bigot, anti-homosexual, “fibertarian”, liar, idiot, etc. I dont ban other opinions–and im quite sure people here prefer it that way. A lesser person might feel insecure with being called so many names when he could so easily just delete the posts–but I dont give a crap what yall think =)
In all seriousness, though, I find IPR to be highly successful. It has created a close community of third party activists who have an open dialogue about virtually everything. Congrats to all the readers who make this site great, to the commenters who make it lovely, and to the bloggers who keep it updated.
Banning? I don’t think I’d really like to spend my time on a place where everyone echoed my own sentiments all of the time. That’d be boring. Instead, we should all be learning from and studying one another.
There’s actually a term ‘povertarians’ for a reason. There’re plenty of us out there… 🙂
Wow folks, this is just fascinating. I have developed a great deal of respect for most of you
all here, even as some of you have pissed me off.
Yes Trent and MDH, I mean you. LOL
//:-P>——–
Seriously though, I can’t begin to tell you just how refreshing it is to have debates with strong opinions expressed and no banning of someone, just because one may disagree with someone and even be pissed off at that person.
Stephen Linaberry, I especially enjoyed and respected your post.
I agree 100% about the GP being mainly white, middle class. It has been one of my issues with the GP.
The only people who show up at LPWV meetings tend to be poor white folks. Actually, if you look at my membership in general, it tends to be people for whom the $20/year dues actually show a real commitment, versus people for whom $20 a year is nothing. There’s only one member of the LPWV who is independently wealthy (that one being a well-known gentleman named Glenn, who resides in TN and became a member so that he could join our 2008 national delegation.)
mdh, MY opinion is that she really does have concern for what happens, that minorities always seem to get left behind.
And it isn’t just the LP. I have been to Green meetings locally. And they are just as lily white and upper middle class as any LP meeting.
It can be frustrating trying to build a rainbow mosaic that actually represents America, when the only people to show up are, well, upper middle class white folks.
I could be wrong, but I think her criticism is as much inward as toward any of us. And frustration with the Greens, which she has expressed frequently.
PEACE
mdh,
Welcome to the “conversation”. She’ll return briefly, to claim you’re attacking her for being female.
How come Kimberly never responds directly to my questions to her? 🙁
It’s difficult to have a dialogue when someone criticizes my positions but won’t allow a bit of interrogatory investigation of their own.
Trent, funny you should ask.
The city had a shelter for a while, above the Trailways bus station. Then the city took the whole block to build a 250 million dollar mall. They continued to spend thousands on a shelter director and secretary, but didn’t serve any homeless people.
We illegally opened a shelter a few blocks away, in a “hillbilly” part of town. Then the gays moved in, and our rent was way too high, so we moved to the black part of town, again illegally. Then a boxer beat Mike Tyson, and bought the building to build a park to honor his mother. We moved down the block, and went legit. Spent weeks getting a zoning variance. But there was no variance for shelter, so we got a “hotel” variance. Now gentrification has come again, the gay community taking over a squalid neighborhood and forcing out the neighborhood.
An independent movie was made of this, the schism between the gay community and the black community. But the movie is really a good lesson on zoning. If you get a chance to rent or see “Two Flags”, it is VERY educational about zoning and the schism between these two groups.
PEACE
Steven,
Did you build the homeless area in a poor WHITE area? Racist.
=P
Trent: I know. The Somali’s here are literally living in fear, especially in the wake of the Piracy hysteria.
mdh: You are exactly correct. I have never crossed the line to “middle class” income. Part of it has been my choice of jobs over the years…taking several years off to start a homeless shelter, etc. You never do get those years back. My family thinks I lack direction!!
But I’ve done more with my life, I keep telling myself.
PEACE
As another personal note, I was once married to a hispanic woman, and have dated black girls before, too. I’ve never dated an Asian though. 😛
By the way, with regards to us political types excluding poor folks… I am far from wealthy. I have a steady job and rent a single-wide in an inexpensive area, with black and white neighbors. People get along well. I work with people of many races and we all get along very well.
I’m the chairman of a state LP affiliate. So the notion that “us political types” exclude poor folks is just not correct here in the LPWV.
Kimberly, would you mind sharing with us a brief overview of your financial circumstances? I tend to think that you or your husband or both probably have a lot of money. I don’t see much talk about racism from poor people. It mostly comes out of rich white people, to be honest.
Take me up on my offer and do a poll of some real poor folks – white, black, hispanic, whatever. Find out what people like myself really have to say where you live, rather than just making assumptions about what it’s like for us.
Steven,
The Republican blogosphere REALLY hates them. The Somali’s make frequent trips back to Somalia, or in some cases they visit Mecca (for the Hajj), or elsewhere for business. Each time this happens–that person is immediately accused of being a member of Al-queda, usually by someone with the same mental prowess of Eric Dondero.
We all have our areas of interest. I am currently working on outreach to the local Somali community.
The democrats and republicans ignore them, largely.
And since they started coming here 15 years ago, they have started to open many, many businesses.
And the black community HATES them worse than the local yahoos do.
PEACE
Kimberly,
This is being taken personally because you are leveling accusations at *all white men.* If I said that all women were cheating whores, you’d probably take it personally, since most people see that as an insult. Where I come from, being called a racist is an insult. You have implied and even explicitly stated many times that *all white men* participate in racism in some manner.
As far as having meetings where black people or white people may feel uncomfortable, that doesn’t apply to WV. There aren’t really any places like that. I grew up in an area where upper and middle class people of both colors sometimes felt uncomfortable. It was inhabited by mostly poor black people, but some poor white people too. Conversely, there were areas which were majority poor white, where upper and middle class people of all races felt uncomfortable. It wasn’t about race.
And believe me, in the upper and middle class areas, us poor kids weren’t real welcome by the local cops – regardless of our race.
Yea, all races should be treated equally–but some should be treated more equally than others. Go the extra mile, spend more money, expend more effort, to reach out to someone because they are a particular color–that shows you are truly color-blind!
/end sarcasm
Are you also going to encourage them to reach out to Jews, Asians, Arabs, and Hispanics Kimberly? Why or why not?
Steve L said:
-I don’t know what more can be done, I don’t have all the answers. But in the meantime, I and other Libertarians will treat all as equals. The way we want to be treated.-
I appreciate your thoughtful comments.
And, I have a challenge for you.
I challenge you to stretch the boundaries of treating people as equals…
And, realize that people of color (and also, poor people) are often excluded from political discourse, because us political types tend to have more money and tend to meet in affluent and/or white-ish neighborhoods.
So, it is easy to think that you see a black person at your meeting or on the street and you are nice. But, what about all the black people who never make it to your meeting, or you street, because of years of police abuse and profiling, systemic injustices in zoning and schools, etc? Can you go further and care about the black people who you don’t see because they have been squeezed out?
Anyway, this is just a challenge to anyone from any third party or political club, to hold a meeting in a part of town where the white people might not feel comfortable, but people of color will feel comfortable. And, to reach out to poor people, consider having it on a train or bus line.
Just something to think about…
In other words, if they don’t think that the government should have “racial quotas” because the state should not be the judge, then what would be the problem with the Libertarian Party – as a private entity – creating racial quotas, or trying to recruit for diversity?
I’m not sure what more the LP can do with it’s meager resources. It is rare that a Libertarian is invited to address any black or minority group.
That said, we DO have a sizable African-American presence at our national conventions. Maybe not in proportion to the population at large, but still surprisingly sizable.
For that matter, the LP is overwhelmingly of the computer type folks. Programmers and routing engineers, etc. (Kinda’ like the democrats are overwhelmingly educrats). I don’t know the entire reason for this, but I suspect that engineering types are drawn to logical answers.
But for the record, not only does the LP have African Americans as candidates locally (NY & GA come to mind), but the LP had an American Indian (Russell Means ’87) and and African American (Dick Boddie ’93) seek the LP POTUS nomination, along with several folks of the Jewish faith as candidates (Tonie Nathan ’91, Andre Marrou ’87 & ’93, Nancy Lord ’93 & Wayne Root ’08) who did get the nomination.
I don’t know what more can be done, I don’t have all the answers. But in the meantime, I and other Libertarians will treat all as equals. The way we want to be treated.
PEACE
“I have a right to say “Our society is corrupt. And, any white man inside it, who does not take a certain amount of his life to fight for social justice is wrong.”
And, no one should take that personally. Unless they know that they don’t do enough for social justice.”
You have a right to say chicken-shit is potpourri, but no one’s going to sniff it–are they? It doesnt make it correct. You are welcome to vocalize whatever crackpot theory you have, there are many here on this website, but don’t confuse your right to say it with a “right” to not be confronted about the wrongness of the statement.
Again, you noted that “any white man” who does not take a stance against social injustice is wrong? Why only whites? Why only men? I see shades of racism and sexism in that statement, and I’m quite sure that I am not the only one.
As for the last two sentences: they are totally devoid of any logical value. It’s as if you cannot go more than 3-4 sentences without saying “well if it bothers you, you must be racist!!!” If I claimed “White men kill jews”–that would be an ignorant and repulsive statement (and racist). Undoubtedly, SOME white men have killed jews, and some more will, too. However, if a white man says “Wait a second, I have a problem with that statement”–does that mean he is just ashamed of his own jew-killing past? No. This is more strawman, repackaged to reflect the arguement in it’s current form. Your form of social justice demands racism from blacks and hispanics towards whites, and sexism from women toward men–I don’t want any part of that, and I wont let it go unchallenged on my website. Im doing as you instructed, combatting racism and sexism wherever I find it.
As a side-bar: Are Asians part of the oppressed class too? Do they experience hundreds of instances of racism per day?
“I have a right to judge “Congresspeople” as a whole, because the system is corrupt and they stay in it and benefit from it.”
You have that right. But it’s ignorant, both of reality or common sense. Just because the system is corrupt, does not mean one benefits from it by staying in it. Ron Paul is a great example. He does not participate in junkets, doesn’t accept the payraises, and doesn’t participate in the congressional retirement system. He opposes the system at every turn. He DOES benefit from it, in that he has a pulpit from which to say these things–but isnt that a good thing? By the same token, someone earlier mentioned (i think it was Ross) that they are the perfect student to take a standardized test, and they benefit from it the most, at the expense of others–but that doesnt mean they SUPPORT the system, just because they are in it. It’s a totally false dichotomy.
“It is also revealing that you are taking the whole thing so defensively and personally.
And, it is revealing that you feel the need to call me a racist and express such outrage with me. And, all because I am critiquing A SYSTEM.”
First of all–there is no outrage, only frustration. Your backwards logic is likely to convince others that this reverse-racism is ohk. As you suggested, I’m vehemently combatting racism where I see it. I DO take it personally when someone alleges I am racist, because I am not. I especially take it personally when that person knows nothing of me–and can only attribute racism to me on the basis of my skin color! For you to lecture about racism, whilst excoriating ALL whites for racism (and exempting any other race from said excoriation) is the most profoundly unsophisticated understanding of racism I have ever heard of.
“You may not be bad, but you are not the world’s gift to women’s liberation, either.”
Nor are you. Oppression often comes from the inside. You believe women need the help of the State in order to achieve equality–I dont.
“The fact that you think because you do me the favor of inviting me to this forum, you believe you are therefore so generous to women, that you could not be sexist is kind of bizarre. ”
Do you know what a strawman arguement is? It’s when you make an arguement up, and posit it as someone else’s, so that you can knock it down successfully. Exihibit A, is the quote above.
I never claimed any of that. My point in saying what I said was to show that my actions towards you, thus far, have not been to “oppress” you–but to allow you a bully pulpit!
Trent: I have felt this confusion here before. Do you believe that I identify as “a black person”? Because, I don’t.
I am simply an anti-racist white ally.
The fact that you think because you do me the favor of inviting me to this forum, you believe you are therefore so generous to women, that you could not be sexist is kind of bizarre. Bad people sometimes do good things, or are forced to do good things, etc. You may not be bad, but you are not the world’s gift to women’s liberation, either.
It is also revealing that you are taking the whole thing so defensively and personally.
And, it is revealing that you feel the need to call me a racist and express such outrage with me. And, all because I am critiquing A SYSTEM.
It kind of reminds me of the argument I got into at a birthday party yesterday. I said to someone, “I have no faith in any Congressperson or politician. They are all corrupt and hopeless and I would not waste my time on any of them.”
A woman got indignant, as if I had hurt her best friend, or said something demonical and unforgiveable.
I have a right to judge “Congresspeople” as a whole, because the system is corrupt and they stay in it and benefit from it.
I have a right to say “Our society is corrupt. And, any white man inside it, who does not take a certain amount of his life to fight for social justice is wrong.”
And, no one should take that personally. Unless they know that they don’t do enough for social justice.
“because women have a higher likelihood of exhibiting a sort of pretentiousness than men do”
For the record, I definetly do disavow this statement as an over-generalization. It isnt as offensive or generalized as some other statements on this thread–but worth condemning nonetheless.
“But I also can understand and sympathize with those who what to go with the “lets ignore it and it will go away” strategy (not to day that’s what I think Trent believes). ”
Im glad you put that! It is most certainly not what I believe. And since i’v spent so much time shooting down Kimberly’s laughable ideas on racism, I’ll expound my own.
I do acknowledge that racism exists or course, but reject that it exists in anywhere near the levels that it existed just 10, 15, 20, 50, or 100 years ago. A mere 40 years ago, a segregationist was able to win 30-something electoral votes as a third party candidate. Just 18 years ago, David Duke nearly won the governorship of Louisiana. Just 10 years ago, the majority of Mississippi’s state legislators were members of the Council of Conservative Citizens (the heir to the White Citizen’s Councils). I have studied both right-wing and left-wing racism in depth. Both are deplorable. The difference is that Lester Maddox is shamed while Malcom X is exhulted. Both are disgusting. Right wing racism has declined over the years, reaching a furious peak (in modern times) around 1964-1968 and slowly winding down until the mid-to-late 90s. Left-wing racism, on the other hand, has been on the up-and-up since the 60s. Black seperatist, black power, black supremacist, groups proliferated in the 60s and 70s. Those groups today have less members, but their ideas have more influence in mainstream culture than ever before. I have no stomach for either the left-wing or right-wing varieties of racism, and want to see them both eradicated.
Is that possible? Probably not. Governments, as previously mentioned, can only exacerbate race problems in an area. To the extent that racism can be fought, it must be fought within one on one discussions between those expounding racist views and those who call them out on it. Right-wing racism is no longer socially acceptable to society at larger, it is an ostracizing force–and that is a good thing. However, we ought to seek to make left-wing racism just as ostracized. “Cracker” is just as bad as “nigger”. “nappy headed hoes” is just as bad as “meth-head wonder-breads”. To destroy one with the other is to trade a gun to the back of the head, for one at the front–death comes swiftly in either case. Rather, we ought to seek to move our head out of the cross-fire and hope that the two wings of racism put each other out of OUR misery.
“I will point out how ironic it is that Trent took the time to say that I was prejudiced, but not the time to note that mdh was prejudiced when mdh said the “pretentiousness” thing. Why must I be “scolded” or “put down”? Because, I am of the oppressed class, speaking out…and that is dangerous?”
mdh’s “pretentiousness” comment was from personal experience. He said he personally knew lots of women, etc etc. This might be true. Perhaps he just hangs in circles that attract particular types of women. You, on the other hand, claimed that all women do something, or all blacks do something. That’s a vast generalization. To the degree that mdh’s comments reflected a microcosm of your generalized prejudice, it is deplorable–but make no mistake, his was a microcosm, where as yours is sweeping.
Why would it be dangerous to me for you to “speak out”? As I’v said, my wife is cuban. I’v absolutely nothing against any minority (and happen to be a minority in both political and religious terms myself). I am not “scolding” you because of your color, but because what you say is ignorant and obnoxious. It is low-class race baiting, and reflects a “reverse-racism” itself. The “woe is me” oppressed class stuff is old, too. How, exactly, are you oppressed? How have I, the white man, oppressed you? By giving you a medium through which to spread your own opinion to thousands daily? By letting you, and everyone else, speak freely? The whole thing is just rediculous. You seem to be quite privileged in fact, and I’d wager you enjoyed quite a bit more privilege that either me or my wife as a child. The difference is that I didn’t blame my misfortunes upon a conspiracy of race.
“And, that it happens to black people hundreds of times a day. ”
Again–this is stupendously overblown and indicative of the “woe if me”-mentality. Black people suffer from racism hundreds of times per day? Please. You are the first black person I have met who has made this claim. You are the first minority I have met who has made this claim. My wife claims to have experienced racism only once in her life–are hispanics less likely to experience racism? why?
“Does Trent get so dismissive, he blows up in his own mind what I am claiming?”
Your arguement is that blacks experience hundreds of racist actions per day. I think it is fair, then, to claim that you see “Racism in every action”–though that might be slightly hyperbolic. You have said that the white, oppressor, class is racist by mere virtue of being white (or at least, that is your implication; the logical conclusion of your statements)–I don’t think it is much of a stretch to say you see racism in every action between whites and blacks. But I’ll throw a “virtually” in for good measure. “Virtually every action.”
It is my honest opinion that Kimberly is the single most racist and sexist person I have ever talked to. Ironically, she gaurds this racism and sexism under the guise of “protecting” and “speaking out” for blacks and women. David Duke does the same thing on “behalf of whites”. Neither are fooling me.
“MDH and Trent
you make statements like this
—————————————————-
@12 Kimberly, I know a *lot* of women who are vastly more comfortable around men than they are around women, because women have a higher likelihood of exhibiting a sort of pretentiousness than men do
————————————————–
and then have the balls say this
——————————————————-
Your rash generalizations about men, women, society, and your rants about patriarchal societies are just silly, really.”
Not sure why you attempted to include my name in there. I said neither. But it doesnt matter, mdh’s statement was that he knows ALOT of women blah blah blah–not that ALL women blah blah blah or NO women blah blah blah. He also spoke from personal experience, saying “I know alot of women” rather than a sweeping “all women” or “women in America”.
Race does not depend upon a power structure, or what percentage of your population makes up the country, state, city, or neighborhood. Race is an attitude towards others that says you see them as lesser beings because of their race (or greater, because of their race).
For example–you claim a black man can’t be racist in the US. What about if a white guy walks into a mostly-black club and a black guy tells him “Get out cracker.”? Is that not racism? Or that just the black man trying to protect his private property? You people are a joke.
Kimberly (at 32),
I understand and agree with you about the deep impression racism has left on American, Western and even World culture. And I agree with you that racism is something that we must fight were ever it exists and have no tolerance for. But I also can understand and sympathize with those who what to go with the “lets ignore it and it will go away” strategy (not to day that’s what I think Trent believes). I don’t think it’s only libertarians that want to just try to ignore it, there are as many progressives and conservatives that want to do the same thing.
Also, I thing I think some people get confused about is that they think that because a libertarian says the government shouldn’t do something that he/she objects to it being done it all. We libertarians DO want things like quality healthcare, an end to poverty and an end to discrimination and for that reason we oppose the government doing it.
@30 – Kimberly, if you think you’re being scolded or put down, then I’m sorry. That’s never been my intention, and quite frankly, when engaging in discussions where there’s a heated dispute, you need to expect dialogue of this caliber. When certain folks get involved, you must also expect much worse. That goes for men, women, white folks, black folks, etc alike, though. It has absolutely nothing to do with any of that. If an 87 year old Asian man were saying what you’re saying, my responses would be the exact same. My responses are a function of my own thoughts and opinions, and have nothing to do with you other than that I am responding to your thoughts and opinions.
@32 – I don’t believe that everyone would be equal if laws were equal. That’s not the Libertarian position. The Libertarian position is that laws *must* be equal because, as a political entity, that is the only morally right goal for us to pursue in this arena. Societal changes are a seperate thing, and not really something that a political party has the power to pursue other than through laws which somehow enforce such societal changes. We believe that such laws are immoral and tend to *create* prejudice rather than put it down. If you don’t believe me, go over to http://www.stormfront.org and take a look at *why* those people are racists. They often have stories about how things like affirmative action has hurt them and their families.
It’s similar to the war in Iraq. The government responds to terrorism by taking actions that only create resentment which breeds more people around the world who hate the US and are more likely to commit acts of terrorism. We were attacked on 9/11 specifically because our government was attacking those people, their friends and families, for decades.
Racism is not pervasive in our culture the way it was in the early 20th century. A quick chat about racial issues with an 80 year old versus the same chat with a 20 year old will show that. The inherently racist generations for whom it was an accepted part of their culture are simply dying off. Young people tend to only become involved in racism for two reasons:
1> Government-sponsored inequality has harmed them, their family, or their friends. These people will probably never be convinced that equality is the way to go, they have a personal vendetta now.
2> They are seeking a social group, and racist hate groups find them first. (This is the same reason that so many kids get caught up in violent street gangs, homophobic church groups, etc.)
There’s nothing that a political organization can really do to address the second one other than to be a social circle and try to teach these young’uns that true equality is the only moral way of looking at their fellow humans. The way to do this is just by being there, being strong, and being moral.
To Eternaverse,
Thank you for interjecting some clear analysis and also compassion into the argument.
I do believe that I said some of the point about the Libertarian view of “everyone would be equal if laws were equal” has some merit.
But, I would believe more that Libertarians cared more about racism, if they THEMSELVES or AS A PARTY took any measures to dissolve racism.
In other words, if they don’t think that the government should have “racial quotas” because the state should not be the judge, then what would be the problem with the Libertarian Party – as a private entity – creating racial quotas, or trying to recruit for diversity? How come most Libertarians are afraid to characterize our CULTURE as racist or sexist?
Some Libertarians want to dismiss any talk on the subject and poo-poo the talk that our society still has injustice.
Couldn’t someone say, “The government should not have quotas. The government should not have programs to address racism.”, and then explain how it will be fixed, and even create some plans or programs, or do some work on the subject in one’s personal life? I never see that happen from Libertarians. That is why I am suspect that they truly understand or care about racism or sexism.
Separately from dialogue or characters here:
I am purposefully making this separate, because it is a philosophical point I have been thinking while reading Jane Eyre, and I don’t intend to point it at anyone in particular. It is about racism and sexism, but I will just talk about sexism, because, as I said, it is from reading Jane Eyre…
Clearly, in the 1800’s, when Charlotte Bronte was writing Jane Eyre, and Jane Austen was writing her novels, there was sexism in the society. First of all, both women thought they could not even publish under their own names. Also, their novels remind us of facts such as that women could not inherit property. And, women were trapped in marriages and a sexual code that oppressed them much more greatly than men.
When there is such a system of oppression, the society does not like it when people notice it and complain about it. And, the society creates manners and rules for keep things quiet.
One thing is that, if someone in the oppressed class speaks up, they are uniquely attacked and put down. Often they are called crazy.
But, if someone in the oppressed class supports the system, they are rewarded. A woman of that time who learned to play the piano, did not speak to forcefully about politics, found a good husband (or latched on to someone in her family to caretake for), and said snotty things about other women who were crazy and trying to buck the system, could go very far.
I was thinking of it as like a double oppression:
You will stay down. And, if you pipe up, we will shame you and smash you into the ground.
That is why the Bronte sisters and Jane Austen had to publish under male names. Because, if they were going to be seen as women who dared to write, and even comment on the classism and sexism in their society, they had to have the power, fan base, and resources to fight back powerfully.
If they would have started out saying, “I am a woman, and I am writing this book on the injustices of poverty and the injustices of our marriage system”, they probably would have A. never found a publisher. Or, B. been chastised and humiliated by the power structure before their book sales could take off.
Thanks, Michael. You saved me from a lot of cut and pasting (and deciding if it was worth it.)
I will point out how ironic it is that Trent took the time to say that I was prejudiced, but not the time to note that mdh was prejudiced when mdh said the “pretentiousness” thing. Why must I be “scolded” or “put down”? Because, I am of the oppressed class, speaking out…and that is dangerous?
Also, Trent said:
-It is not Kimberly’s citation of the existence of racism that bothers me–but her confounded idea that it exists in every action –
Whenever we have these conversations, Trent assigns different and hyperbolic thoughts/words to me that I never said. I did not say that racism exists in every action. I said that it permeates our culture. And, that it happens to black people hundreds of times a day.
Does Trent get so dismissive, he blows up in his own mind what I am claiming? Or, does Trent purposefully restate my argument so that he can then make the fake argument he created look ridiculous?
MDH and Trent
you make statements like this
—————————————————-
@12 Kimberly, I know a *lot* of women who are vastly more comfortable around men than they are around women, because women have a higher likelihood of exhibiting a sort of pretentiousness than men do
————————————————–
and then have the balls say this
——————————————————-
Your rash generalizations about men, women, society, and your rants about patriarchal societies are just silly, really.
—————————————————
Well, either balls or just simple blindness to your own generalizations and preconceived generalizations.
just a thought you two.
In the spirit of debate. open and honest.
Trent
I will gladly let my sister Kimberley answer the question of sexism. Kim, I may falter but damn it, I think I am a decent feminist.
Racism, dear God, where to start.
You seem to not have a clue about this issue, do you? No offense.
Racism in those in power or are part of a SYSTEM of bigotry. So no, you can not be black and racist in the US. A bigot, yes and there are LOTS of bigots of all colours here but that is not the question.
Although, it must be stated, if a Black AMERICAN is in Iraq and calls a Muslim a Hadgi, raghead or any other racist slur and/or uses his position of power to beat or denigrate any Muslim or Arab, then, in that context, he is indeed a black racist.
It is systemic power that is the key issue.
We could talk a lot more on this, if you like.
Levon
Irish, Catholic Working Class male who was born in East side San Jose but lived in Craigavon, northern Ireland from age 10 till 25. Craigavon is known as the place that people from BELFAST will not come near.
Dropped out of high school, eventually at age 30 went back to school, got ADN in Nursing. Registered Nurse, was in ADN to Masters program when Iraq war started. dropped out and became involved in anti-war movement.
Involved in H-Block campaign, although at that time Irish Republicans rejected electoral politics. Then I was a 100% supporter of the IRA. If I had done anything there i could not tell you. lets just say that my wifes native American Church make me stand up with the other veterans on Vets Day. At my wife’s insistence. It is kind of embarrasing, frankly. I have changed my position radically since then. Kind of like the Vets For Peace. Nothing like experience to change your thoughts on the brutality and ugliness of war.
Moved to Minnesota and became Nurse specializing in Burn and Trauma ICU in Level One Trauma Center.
At Sept 11th, I and other volunteered to assist after attacks (as Burn Nurses we knew what those fireballs meant and have the experience to treat them.)
I treated some of the very critical patients from the Pentagon attack. I am now a 9-11 Truther.
Ran twice as an endorsed Green, once for State Rep (faced primary Green party challenge from Democratic mayor who ran as a Green) and was the GP endorsed GP candidate for US Senate 2006.
I also was on Official Green Observer in the 2004 Ohio Re-Count (thank you Libertarians for helping with this)
I have been active in many GP campaigns both local and federal.
I was a GP National Delegate for Minnesota.
Brrrrrrrrr.
“Your rash generalizations about men, women, society, and your rants about patriarchal societies are just silly, really. ”
And, dare I say, prejudiced.
“Kimberly is right that there is racism; we just disagree on how to correct it.”
It is not Kimberly’s citation of the existence of racism that bothers me–but her confounded idea that it exists in every action, and that white people are the only ones who can be racist. Blacks cannot be racist and women cannot be sexist.
@12 Kimberly, I know a *lot* of women who are vastly more comfortable around men than they are around women, because women have a higher likelihood of exhibiting a sort of pretentiousness than men do. Your rash generalizations about men, women, society, and your rants about patriarchal societies are just silly, really.
Women have as many advantages as men do in today’s modern society. They’re just different advantages. There’re times I wish I had the advantages that women have. There’re also times when I’m glad I have the advantages men have. To be brutally honest, I’m sure glad I don’t have to deal with certain monthly reproductive/biological events that women do. 😉
Trent,
I wouldn’t call Kimberly’s views racist. I think this issue comes down to the splitting point between classical liberals (libertarians) and modern liberals (progressives). We both agree that there are certain problems; it’s just that we disagree about how to fix those problems. Modern progressives want to use conservative (statist) means to fix these problems while libertarians want to use liberal (anti-statist) means. Kimberly is right that there is racism; we just disagree on how to correct it. Libertarians realize that the people who run the state are not better than those the state controls, government cannot change society for the better because… they are all members of society! Government works are just as racists as those not working for the government.
I think its best not to question people’s motives, we are all just trying to do what is right. I think both you and Kimberly are doing what you think is right to tackle the same problems. We are all united against the two heads of the War Party, the Republicans and Democrats. Let’s try to remember that they are our enemy and that we all are allies. Just my two cents.
The notion that black people are somehow victimized hundreds of times every day is just silly. Just ask any normal black person who *doesn’t* have a victimhood complex.
Hell, go talk to Michael Steele, Chairman of the GOP.
“And, I actually believe that there are huge differences (which I can’t remember) between the OLD Black Panthers and the NEW Black Panthers.”
There are. The Old Black Panthers were exclusively marxist, but were not as millitant. The New Black Panthers are reviled by the Old Black Panthers.
I didn’t read the rest of your comment. Im not interested in more of your race-discussions. We vehemently disagree on the issue and I find your views to be racist in and of themselves. But, if anyone else has any insights on these black supremacist groups, I’d like to know.
Trent Hill // May 3, 2009 at 2:21 pm
-Yes. Racism, sexism, “ageism”, these are all prejudices that you seem to see around every corner. There is no doubt that each of them exists, but yes–they are inextricably connected.
So–do you consider yourself a black supremacist? Are you in any way connected to any black-power Harlem groups? I dont say that to condemn you, I am generally interested. I just finished doing some pretty exhaustive research on the Black Panthers, New Black Panthers, Black Israelites, etc.-
Well, if we live in a racist, patriarchal society, than I guess it would be correct to see racism and sexism around every corner? Right?
😉
I do not know enough about some of the specific groups you mentioned. And, I actually believe that there are huge differences (which I can’t remember) between the OLD Black Panthers and the NEW Black Panthers.
So, that I will leave alone.
Just like I would not want black men coming in and telling me how to promote my vision for feminism.
One thing I believe: No one should fight for justice using violence.
I do see that racism, sexism, ageism, and class discrimination are all related. I hate it the most when one oppressed class can’t embrace and honor the struggle of another oppressed class.
I do think that “ageism” is different from the other ones listed. Because, most people get to be every age -either old or young – at least one time in their life. If someone is black or a woman, they are stuck with that “burden or label” in our culture for their life (or until our culture reforms.)
I love the idea of “unaware racism” and “white privilege”. Having people who are white to just think about all the times that they unconsciously accept privilege, spend conspicuously, and travel freely without thinking, while others around them may be suffering – sometimes because of the white person’s behavior, sometimes in a kind of parallel play in which one is the winner and one is the loser, and the winner just doesn’t notice.
I think that a lot of Libertarians believe that they address racial disparity by saying: “I will be color blind and support the law being color blind. That way there will be no racism or sexism.” And, I think that blind equality is the purist and noblest solution. But, we are so far from there, and we can’t get there without addressing past and current inequities.
Because of our history and culture, I think it is naive to just say “work for the law to be equal”, and not take concrete actions now to make up for the past – either personally through sharing and charity and/or institutionally by setting quotas where there are ingrained injustices that “being equal” has not solved for generations, etc.
In New York, there are a lot, a lot of deeds where it still says, “no Jews allowed to buy this home because it is in such and such development” or “no blacks”. And, people mostly ignore the rule now, but still sign the deeds and pass them along, saying everyone knows it is unenforceable. And, I think every realtor, attorney and home owner that doesn’t stop right there and go get it fixed, is allowing the hate to continue. We all feel too busy to take personal responsibility for our impact on the world, and our collusion in a corrupt, disgraceful system.
To me, finding things like that in this world is a smack in the face, and the realization that black people are smacked in the face hundreds of times a day in our culture.
And, for a simple, yet profound, test of white privilege – when people plan meetings for politics, do they think about if it is in such a rich neighborhood or such a white neighborhood, that black people or people with shabby cars may be targeted by police. That is another way white people exercise unaware racism. The white people are in charge of an organization, and they think, “Oh, we’ll just meet over at that diner we all like…” Not realizing that a black person has been trained not to go to that side of town.
Oh…another one very specific to NY. A friend of mine who is white and worked as a consultant was in NYC. He was meeting a black friend for dinner and catching the train afterwards. They were late for the train and the white man started to run. The black man said, “I can’t run, we’ll have to catch the next one.” He noted that as a black man, he knows he cannot run in the city.
And, that is real. And, from someone who is not particularly political. And, who does not study dismantling racism.
How would it feel to be inside a city, and know that you cannot run????????? Ever??????
Dear Levon,
Wow. Thanks. I am complimented that you recognize I have the energy to be a candidate.
I have done that already!
Let’s see…
I ran for Suffolk County Legislature against a Dem incumbent. I got only 1% of the vote. But, it was when I first plunged into politics, and we created a 5 member slate that really energized and founded the local Green Party.
I ran for the **nomination** of NY Lt. Governor for the Green Party at their convention years ago. And, when I thought that games were played to make me lose, I rather stubbornly applied process and the law to petition against the chosen GOVERNOR candidate. But, that is a long story (and I never did file the petitions.)
I ran for State Senate against a conservative, hugely sexist, Republican incumbent who the local Dems don’t run against (and the local Dem Chair actually PERSONALLY ENDORSED last time.) That was a fun ride. I filed petitions. Got a letter from the BOE I was on the ballot. But, when I started to get some publicity, the BOE suddenly recanted and took me off the ballot.
And, I have been the campaign manager or coordinator for lots of awesome green candidates. Some of whom I recruited (read begged and flattered) to run.
But, right now, we do not have “automatic ballot status” in NY. So, running candidates is a chore and hurdle we just can’t accomplish here in my County. And, I was feeling rather unappreciated in the Green Party.
So, I am taking a break. And, doing what I am better at, and have always wanted to do…be a writer.
Peace,
Kimberly
Kimberly,
You have all this energy.
When will you run for public office?
Let us hope soon.
Thank you.
michael,
What is your background?
Age?
Education? B.A.? Graduate Education?
Profession?
Are you employed?
How long have you been involved with the Green Party?
Were you involved in another party before the Greens?
Why would you not work with Independence Party of Minn?…after all they have ballot status, and always need candidates..
What public offices have you run for?
What Green Party offices have you held?
Thank you for considering, and perhaps answering questions..
“Is it all the same to you?”
Yes. Racism, sexism, “ageism”, these are all prejudices that you seem to see around every corner. There is no doubt that each of them exists, but yes–they are inextricably connected.
So–do you consider yourself a black supremacist? Are you in any way connected to any black-power Harlem groups? I dont say that to condemn you, I am generally interested. I just finished doing some pretty exhaustive research on the Black Panthers, New Black Panthers, Black Israelites, etc.
Kimberley
thank you for the heads up on Murphy.
As a working class male, I had no problems with him. I still like and respect him but…..However, your thoughts and sense matter to me.
Michael
Trent,
Are you saying that women are a different race than men?
😉
Just kidding, sort of. But, you did post that right after my speech on sexism.
Is it all the same to you?
;)~
Kimberly,
I just watched a documentary on black supremacists in Harlem–and I think I understand where you get it now. Compared to most of them, you’re sane on issues of race relations!
Just some polite-as-I-can comments on John Murphy – Half of what he says and does is correct. And, thus, he is important to listen to.
But, he has a mean streak that he should have dealt with, before polarizing things inside the party.
And, he doesn’t realize that he is sexist. I can’t explain it. But, in the presence of some men, a woman just feels condescended to. And, that is how I always felt like it was with Murphy. Now, it could be that he was riding high with the GDI clique, and looked down on me, personally. But, I truly think it is subtle sexism…which is not the worst accusation, we live in a patriarchal society. But, word up, if John Murphy could address these things within himself, his organizing would go a lot more smoothly.
(And, no, I don’t want to get in an arguing match with JM. Because, I have done it before and decided the best path was to stay out of his way.)
(But, I wouldn’t make JM a central point of organizing. And, if he is the phone contact, you should do what is almost always helfpul, have a woman contact, too. Women often [but not always] feel more comfortabe/safe/etc. speaking with other women. Especially when it is strangers. No biggie having at least one phone contact [for any organization] who is a woman. But, it could be a big help.)
That may seem like reverse sexism. But, that is part of the problem in our society. We are so busy trying to make it appear that we treat women as “equals”, that we err on the other side, and don’t remember that women have subtle differences, and have needs met, like the need for safety with strangers. Or, the need to speak to other women, because we can just let our hair down and our guard down in a way it is still not entirely safe to do with men in this patriarchal culture.
I’d be happy to help him with this new party a bit if that’s what he wants to do, since third parties are practically nonexistent where I live in PA. At the polling places closest to me no third party presidential candidate got more than about .1% and there was only one third party candidate on the ballot aside from them. For local elections, there’s never a third option.
Ross
John Murphy and i contact each other all the time.
He is a good man, committed to standing up to the rotten, pro-war, corporate corrupted two party system.
We are indeed channeling our anger into a constructive future.
You know John Murphy? I volunteered for his 2008 run for Congress. I forgot about it, but he was really bitter about the Green Party. Hopefully you and him and a bunch of other people will be able to funnel that anger into something useful in this new party… I do remember him saying something about trying to form a new party after the election.
The greens, year after year, are their own worst enemies. Remember Cobb and LaMarshe?
John Murphy on Podcast
Hmmmmmmm
http://www.electricpolitics.com/podcast/2008/01/green_grievances.html
That is how I see it. Good old John Murphy
first amendment fundamentalist that he is.
Oh yes and working class to the core.
Banned from the GP. Just one of oh so many.
Ross
Be aware though that the focus of the show will be why many former Greens are just that
Former Greens. Why we are leaving.
Originally, I was going to pass on this but then Greg Jocoy made a comment. So rather than give him and others to crow that we dissenters would not take this glorious opportunity to speak to, ahh all 20 listeners, I decided to say OK.
We will approach this golden opportunity with that spirit.
Haha, I’ll try to. I just don’t know if I can – I’m very busy with schoolwork this time of year.
I can do that here
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. ASAP
4. Yes
call in to the show and we can fill in the blanks.
//:-)>——-
That’s what I meant…
A few questions for the show, if you want to answer them:
1. Will the party take a stance on election reform (eg, voting machine troubles, ballot access, gerrymandering, campaign finance reform)?
2. Will the party take a stance on the initiative process – that is, reforming it and expanding it to states that don’t have it and the national level?
3. When will the party run its first candidates and what is the general strategy when they do run?
4. Do you expect to become a major party?
It ain’t my new party.
It is OURS. Open, democratic and respectful.
//:-)>——
I definitely want to hear about Cavlan’s new party.