Long announces for LPA chair

Roderick T. Long, Associate Professor of Philosophy at Auburn University — and a figure usually associated with the libertarian movement’s “left,” anarchist and non-party wings — has announced his candidacy for the Libertarian Party of Alabama’s chairmanship.

Long is running as part of a slate with announced goals:

1) Lean internal expenses. Dispense with maintaining an office in Birmingham and decentralize the administration of the party.

2) Focus on building and activating the membership base with less of an emphasis on fundraising.

3) Achievable 2010 electoral strategy. While not cast in stone, given the present barriers to statewide ballot access, the strategy would be to target a few local races where we have the best chance of having an impact.

The slate’s proposals have engendered considerable discussion, with opposition and counter-proposals offered by long-time LPA activists including Mark Bodenhausen and Paulie Cannoli (see comments appended to Long’s announcement).

Current LPA chair Stephen Gordon will not seek re-election at the party’s June 27th convention in Birmingham. Vice Chair Mike Rster has indicated an interest in the chairmanship, but has also raised the possibility of disbanding the party altogether.

178 thoughts on “Long announces for LPA chair

  1. paulie

    RL:
    1) Lean internal expenses. Dispense with maintaining an office in Birmingham and decentralize the administration of the party.

    p) I’ll quote Mark Bodenhausen on this one:

    “We spend less than $5K per year TOTAL on EVERYTHING…office, phone, postage, supplies, etc. Where else do you want to cut? Dream on if you think you can cut office expenses to zero. Where will the volunteers meet? We currently average 300 hours per month at the office…is everyone expected to drive to Huntsville on a weekly basis, when there’s NOTHING happening there? Where will we meet? How much room will we have to work and set up a campaign? Where will we store everything…PA system, tents, booths, tables, chairs, brochures, paper joggers and two laser printers, one color and one mono, desks, autodialers, t-shirt machine and phone banks? Or store thousands of signs and wire, when the print shop is here? Lock them away in a storage shed or someone’s basement a hundred miles away where they will never be used again? The Washington LP faced a similar problem, they closed their Seattle office and tried to run out of Olympia, an hour away. What happened is not surprising…those that wanted the office closed didn’t do any work anyway, and the rest of the volunteers simply stopped coming because it was too far away. It was a disaster that I don’t want to repeat.

    Let’s start to focus on increasing membership and donations to cover basic expenses, NOT cutting costs. We have an election in just over a year…what is this “slate” going to do about a campaign office? Not have one? Run everything out of a P.O. Box? Ridiculous. We’ve tried that AND IT DIDN’T WORK!!!

    HOW ABOUT BEING PRODUCTIVE INSTEAD? Show me what activities this “slate” has done in the last year…or two or three…that deserves them having ALL our assets and resources. How many volunteer hours have been logged? How many events? Interviews? Show me anything.

    Let’s use what we have to our advantage and make a go of it…we have a live, active and thriving volunteer force in Birmingham. I don’t want to lose the thousands of hours a year we get from our base here or make them drive three or four hours on a weekly basis without some sort of justification. We deserve better!!!”

    2) Focus on building and activating the membership base with less of an emphasis on fundraising.

    P) Certainly we should build and activate the membership base, but in what way does this conflict with fundraising? What kind of political organization thrives without raising money? If Steve Dow and Jim Albea want more volunteers, they should recruit some, instead of wrecking our fundraising.

    3) Achievable 2010 electoral strategy. While not cast in stone, given the present barriers to statewide ballot access, the strategy would be to target a few local races where we have the best chance of having an impact.

    P) As an alternative, I’ve suggested an extensive plan to raise the money (and as many volunteer signatures as possible!) for 2010 and 2012 ballot access statewide, and use it as a jumping-off point for many other types of party activity. “Achievable” is what we make it!

    RL) An additional part of the proposed vision is for the Chair to be concerned primarily with the formulation of policy statements and speaking to the press, rather than combining the roles of chief spokesperson and chief administrator as has been done in the past.

    p) I would be thrilled to have you as our party spokesman to the press. Is there a way we can do that without electing this slate and its plan to wreck the LPA?

    RL) I’m also a longtime member of the Grassroots Libertarian Caucus,

    p) Me too. However, I don’t think decentralization means we have to abandon our HQ. I’m in favor of starting active chapters in every county and starting precinct organizing.

    I also agree with the other goals of the Grassroots Caucus.

    My goals for LPA

    1) Keep the office in Birmingham

    2) Greater emphasis on fundraising (make that much greater) while also building and activating the membership base far more than ever before

    3) Aggressive 2010/2012 electoral strategy, using ballot access as a jumping-off point to organize active LP branches in every county and campus in the state, collect 120,000 signatures combined or get the requirements reduced, organize at the precinct level, work to build effective alliances with single issue groups, build a small business support base, conduct voter registration drives, increase our presence in all media, lobby for and against legislative actions, hand out materials to hundreds of thousands of people, and put together slates of candidates for each – yes, each – county.

    4) No more defeatism. “Achievable” is what you make it.

    Paulie
    415-690-6352


    Paulie,

    I don’t speak for Roderick, but I am pretty sure that you’re over-looking the point. We need a totally brand spankin’ new business-model. Libertarianism hasn’t had much success, not because there isn’t enough money, or because there isn’t a big enough office, but because the message has never been communicated–on a mass scale–clearly.

    All of your work is admirable. But sometimes hard work is not enough. Sometimes the strategy has to shift. And if the objective is mass communication, ground troops and physical space in general isn’t going to cut it.


    I don’t see it is a conflict of only one or the other. Roderick is one of my favorite writers, and as I said I would be thrilled to have him formulate statements and speak to the press.

    But what does that have to do with dismantling fundraising, closing the office, or scaling back our ballot access plans?

    I also like the idea of having more volunteer activities. No conflict there. I like the positive parts of the slate’s plan, just not the negative ones.

    We don’t have to dampen existing or planned activities to improve our media or position papers, nor to get additional volunteers.


    Much more at

    http://aaeblog.com/2009/06/17/announcement-of-candidacy-for-lpa-chair/

    comments

  2. Robert Milnes

    Now this post is very interesting to me personally. I have a longstanding email relationship with TK. A longstanding bitter feud with Steven “No Cigar” Gordon as he supported Ron Paul & I did not. One of my main detractors online is pauliecannoli. & I’ve tried to establish a theory discussion relationship with Prof. Long along the lines I have with Dr. Milsted.

  3. Robert Milnes

    First I react instinctively and positively to Gordon not being in any position of authority. Second, I see that paulie has interest & enthusiasm & good ideas so I would be positive towards that. Third, Prof. Long seems better suited as party theoretician, spokesperson, press/media relations as suggested by paulie.

  4. Robert Milnes

    I’d be real interested in why the lot of you have been so shall we say unenthusiastic about my Progressive Libertarian Alliance Theory/Strategy. Dr. Milsted’s reaction is understandable in that it would replace his call for a “new upper left party”. He must feel conflicted in the least. I myself was conflicted about it until I resolved to my satisfaction that it was the best basis to proceed. What we need is a theory and action Green/Lp coordinating committee. This would directly proceed with outreach to the GP. I see any/all et al involved in this except Gordon.

  5. Robert Milnes

    Now as to my personal situation: I could use some help. Evidently robertmilnes.net is down due to nonpayment. It has a Paypal donations button so I need it back up asap. & my electricity is about to get shut off. I’ve been wanting to return to CA for camping & gold mining which I have found to help my depression. I only need a solar panel to be electricity independent & portable. I have a 2000 watt inverter & several batteries. I need a small construction trailer to move into & tow to CA. I could be in CA by the end of the month losing only June out of the season (last Saturday in May-Oct.15. So I’m asking for a little help to get on my feet & I should be ok.

  6. Robert Milnes

    I am willing to rejoin the Lp & be an activist & candidate. I wanted to run LP for Governor but that is now for Ken Kaplan. i.e. I was & am willing to try a campaign other than my presidential one to try the Strategy before 2012 or even 2010. 2009. I could help with someone else’s campaign who would be willing to try the Strategy. I could campaign mostly online from CA until Oct. 15, then in person -November.

  7. Robert Milnes

    Unfortunately the Strategy is a dealbreaker for me-no strategy, no Bob Milnes. I suffered from political burnout from constantly losing back in the 70’s & 80’s. I just don’t have the wherewithall to go through that again. It is more than just that I’m getting old. I must have more than just faint hope of winning. The Strategy is that for me.

  8. Thomas L. Knapp Post author

    TPR,

    My estimate of Professor Long’s character is that if he wanted to shut down the LPA, he’d overtly run on a platform of doing so.

    That’s not to say that I endorse his campaign or his slate’s platform, mind you — I’m not in Alabama and don’t have the detailed knowledge of the competing personnel/proposals to make a fully informed judgment of that type — but I see no reason to doubt Professor Long’s claims as to his intentions.

  9. paulie

    I agree; while what I think of the slate proposals has already been expounded over dozens of comments at AAE, I see no reason to suspect any ill intent.

    I couln’t think of anyone better than Roderick Long to write our position papers (I don’t just mean in Alabama). We would be extremely lucky to have that added to what we do. Why it should come at the expense of ballot access, fundraising and our HQ is another question, and one I don’t have the answer to.

  10. Thomas L. Knapp Post author

    Paulie,

    In fairness, you have a personal economic interest in two of the three items you refer to (fundraising and ballot access).

    I’m personally quite willing to believe that the reason you have an economic interest in them is that you believe they’re the right place to concentrate effort rather than vice versa, of course — but there are reasonable arguments as to order of importance.

    To break it down a bit:

    – Your recommended approach is that funds be raised to promote ballot access, and that that ballot access then be used to promote the party and increase identification with it and, as a result, active membership in it.

    – Long’s recommendation seems to be that identification/membership recruitment comes first, making it easier both to raise funds and to achieve/exploit ballot access.

    Hopefully it will be possible for LPA to get some kind of synergy going between those two approaches.

    The office seems to be a silly thing to fight over. If it can be demonstrated that keeping it results in a “profit” versus costs — not necessarily a monetary profit, but, say, increased media coverage, activist involvement, etc. — then keep it. If not, ditch it and move its essential operations to some activist’s garage.

  11. Robert Milnes

    Once again I agree with Prof. Phillies. Was Gordon’s tenure a good one or does he leave kind of like G.B.? , i.e. a mess. Tangentally, was libertarian fawning over Ron Paul worth it, so to speak?

  12. Andy

    “Long’s recommendation seems to be that identification/membership recruitment comes first, making it easier both to raise funds and to achieve/exploit ballot access.”

    I can’t think of anytime when this has worked before. People aren’t too excited about a political party which is not even on the ballot.

  13. paulie

    Tom,

    In fairness, you have a personal economic interest in two of the three items you refer to (fundraising and ballot access).

    Yes, that’s what my detractors in the LPA always point to. But, the last year notwithstanding, there’s usually almost always plenty of work in other states. I don’t have a house or apartment in Alabama, either. I’m also open about the fact that I don’t consider myself the best possible candidate for a field organizer position if we do ever create one. What I am is experienced in tangential areas, and more importantly – available. But, I’d LOVE to find someone better at it who is actually willing to do it.

    They used to make this “personal interest” argument against Rster too, but fact is – he was making a pittance for all the work he did for LPA, makes decent money at other jobs, and has continued to do much of it as a volunteer. So much for that argument.

    Also, I’ve logged lots of volunteer hours myself, and when I’ve been able to afford it, have gotten the LP thousands of volunteer signatures. How many people have done that?


    I’m personally quite willing to believe that the reason you have an economic interest in them is that you believe they’re the right place to concentrate effort rather than vice versa, of course — but there are reasonable arguments as to order of importance.

    To break it down a bit:

    – Your recommended approach is that funds be raised to promote ballot access, and that that ballot access then be used to promote the party and increase identification with it and, as a result, active membership in it.

    – Long’s recommendation seems to be that identification/membership recruitment comes first, making it easier both to raise funds and to achieve/exploit ballot access.

    Actually, I don’t think anything comes first. We need to move forward on all fronts continuously; they all build off each other.

    I don’t think more fundraising and ballot access means less identification/membership recruitment – on the contrary, I want to make that an integral (and free “extra”) that comes with my ballot access work, and as I keep saying, I heartily welcome any non-ballot access related help in that area, as well.


    Hopefully it will be possible for LPA to get some kind of synergy going between those two approaches.

    Synergy is exactly what I hope for. Notice that I am saying we need more of everything, including those things that the slate wants more of. Only one side in this argument is saying we need less of anything.


    The office seems to be a silly thing to fight over. If it can be demonstrated that keeping it results in a “profit” versus costs — not necessarily a monetary profit, but, say, increased media coverage, activist involvement, etc. — then keep it. If not, ditch it and move its essential operations to some activist’s garage.

    Mark Bodenhausen explains that issue well (see my quote from him in comment one). I provide some additional details in my conversation with MBH on AAE blog.

    Also, LPA’s office is $325 a month; we get not just the cubicle office, but also use of a conference room, several storage areas, and de facto use of large common areas during any time other than weekday daytime business hours. It’s a great deal, and we get tons of use out of it, especially considering that Mike
    Rster is still doing many of the things he was doing as (occasionally) paid staff now that he is a volunteer.

    I should also mention that it is in an advantageous location in the biggest
    city in the state. UAB is walking distance. Five Points South, the major hangout
    area near UAB and downtown, is too. The Green Party state contact has an office
    for his business in the same building; the Republican office is just down the
    street, and I think Democrats have one in the same vicinity. Several annual
    parades go right by our office. etc.

  14. paulie

    Would one of you care to write up the situation on the current leadership, which is apparently being completely replaced?

    I don’t know if we are being completely replaced or not, although we may well be.

    Steve Gordon is not seeking reelection; he wants to devote his time and energy to more successful pursuits.

    Mike Rster is trying to decide between pressing full speed ahead and running for chair, and backing off completely. He is tired of not getting more help in both money and volunteers, and of some people in the state party – Steve Dow chief among them – always agitating against any growth-oriented activities.

    Slate member Stephen Dow has done everything possible to keep us from raising money for many years. He believes fundraising calls are “intrusive”. He opposed having a party phoneline for years because it cost too much. His allies in Montgomery let a printing press rust in their back yard because they didn’t put a tarp over it, and in the late 90s argued we should not have a website. Dow voted against even allowing my party growth plan to be considered.

    Dow wanted to get rid of the credit card pledge program when it was small; later, it was bringing in close to $1,000 a month at one point. There are countless other examples.

    As for me, if I can scrape together enough money to go to Alabama on the 27th, I will accept a nomination if anyone wants to nominate me for anything except secretary or treasurer; and I am willing to nominate anyone who wants to move the party forward on all fronts simultaneously, rather than one step forward/two steps back.

  15. Stefan

    My oh my Robert, you are apparently NOT aware that they have very tough ballot access laws stacked against third parties in AL, like in OK etc.
    And has Stephen Gordon with his involvement with the tea parties and media not greatly enhanced the Libertarian cause and has the libertarian cause not been greatly spread by Ron Paul and currently with the Campaign for Liberty? Tell me how many other LP state chairman’s appeared on any major TV station? Not even Redparth appeared.
    We all know Dr. Phillies dislikes Stephen a lot. Speaking for myself, I would say good riddance in Stephen’s place. Stephen is very talented and honest. Have you seen his nice design of websites and blogging on various sites? I hope he joins C4L in an official capacity.

    Tell us, what have you done for the LP and GP except tirelessly advocating what you call a “progressive libertarian” alliance on this site and thirdpartywatch and perhaps one or two others. How many people have you spoken with and persuaded to join the libertarian cause? Etc etc? It is easy to just criticize when you are sitting here and not really going out and take some action.

    BTW: A progressive libertarian alliance was in effect already established formally last year, by the same Ron Paul with four principles that you so criticize. Has the LP or GP etc. started any such initiative? No siree? I think they can decide to support each other’s candidates where each are the strongest, on a one to one basis, or with more than two third parties involved and concentrate on ONLY a few congressional races that can possibly be won and by strong candidates, who can articulate, debate and create interest.

  16. paulie

    Rachel Hawkridge writes at AAE blog:

    Hey, guys – I’m the State Chair in Washington. You all are going to have to work this out on your own, but I have a couple of questions/comments for you –

    1. If you get rid of your office, can I have that Tshirt machine? Maybe the printers? Definitely the PA system! Because within a few months, you won’t have access to them, either – when we didn’t have an office, it was damned near impossible to get with whoever had the stuff stored in their garage, or the guy moved, or the stuff got stolen.

    2. If I didn’t have this messy li’l ol’ office, I wouldn’t get newsletters out, nor signs made for protests, etc. *I* could go spend my days in coffee shops, but all the other stuff falls away . . . the printing, painting, hugging, debating, drinking (COFFEE! and sodas!), mutual ‘net surfing for ideas, eating, collaboration on letter writing campaigns and stuff . . . and the storage is no small thing – the literature, books, tshirts, mugs, supplies . . .

    I’d really like a Tshirt machine. ;o)

  17. Stefan

    Robert: Why do you concentrate on Stephen only. You obviously forget about radical libertarian Ernest Hancock in AZ, who has his own radio show
    and not only endorsed Ron Paul, but actually participated all over the country, organizing signs in New Hampshire the the whole idea with rEVOLution was his. He also recently interviewed Cynthia McKinney of the Green Party, e.g. has done more in for the “progressive libertarian” alliance you are writing about than you yourself! He also understands that you can promote liberty and libertarian ideas in any party, you do not have to be a member of the LP or BTP only!!

    If you think about a fusion between the LP and GP, ain’t gonna happen: the GP ask for a state funding of all the green projects that they have and would not have such a problem with deficits, e.g. not fiscally conservative at all.

  18. paulie

    Interestingly, Hancock actually has an HQ/warehouse in Phoenix which is a
    huge activity focal point.

    Also, I want to see an Ernie Hancock/Wayne Root showdown. That would be quite a
    spectacle…

    -p

  19. SouthernLiberty

    In my humble opinion, there are four really great libertarians in Alabama. Stephen Gordon, Lew Rockwell, Thomas Woods and Loretta Nall. Shana Kluck is a rising star.

    Stephen, Loretta and Shana are the only around here I actually see doing something for liberty and I don’t see loretta as much the last year or two.

    The LPA lost Shana because the don’t do anything. It looks like they are losing Gordon for the same reason, if what Paulie says is right.

    In closing, I just read an article about top political people on twitter in Alabama. Governor Riley and a bunch of other politicos were on the list and Gordon had more followers than all of them put together.

    Have fun destroying the LPA. I’ll probably spend my time with Campaign for Liberty or the Rainy Day Patriots now.

  20. paulie

    In my humble opinion, there are four really great libertarians in Alabama. Stephen Gordon, Lew Rockwell, Thomas Woods and Loretta Nall. Shana Kluck is a rising star.

    I’d also include John Sophocleus, Roderick Long, and, back when they were in Alabama, Scott Kjar, Dick Clark and Charles Johnson, among many others. To some extent, I’d still count Dr. Blake, despite his Republican affiliation and leanings.

  21. SouthernLiberty

    I don’t know Charles Johnson. Scott Kjar and Dick Clark have moved out of Alabama. I don’t see Jimmy Blake or John Sophecleus anywhere, at events or in the news or doing anything anymore.

    Roderick Long is okay, but except for his students and hardcore anarchists, nobody knows about him. I’ve never seen Roderick Long at any LPA meeting or booth, ever.

    I’m going to call Stephen and see what his take is on all of this.

  22. Kimberly Wilder

    The news about Roderick Long sounds very interesting. I agree with a lot of Libertarian values. But, largely in the spirit of freedom and anarchism.

    Anyone able to say something about the last Presidential convention, and how the ideological sides broke down. Because, I think some people left thinking the Prez candidate was “too right.” Think any of those people might come back if Roderick Long becomes the chair?

    (And, would an anarchist, left LP Chair make more room for coalitions with greens?)

  23. paulie

    I don’t know Charles Johnson. Scott Kjar and Dick Clark have moved out of Alabama.

    Yes, all three are no longer in Alabama (as I said in my last comment).

    I don’t see Jimmy Blake or John Sophecleus anywhere, at events or in the news or doing anything anymore.

    Last I know of, Jimmy was getting over his wife’s death in a car accident and Soph was still dealing with the endless legal struggle over the eminent domain case and its fallout.

    Roderick is an adviser to AU Libertarians, one of the world’s most active college libertarian chapters, and was Auburn District LPA rep in 1998-9. Sophocleus was a previous AUL adviser.

    Long and Johnson are two of the leading left-libertarian writers in the world.

  24. paulie

    Anyone able to say something about the last Presidential convention, and how the ideological sides broke down.

    Don’t get me started. Or, see the archives, if you are really bored…

    Think any of those people might come back if Roderick Long becomes the chair? (And, would an anarchist, left LP Chair make more room for coalitions with greens?)

    We shall see. I hope so.

  25. Michael Seebeck

    Paulie @21:

    Also, I want to see an Ernie Hancock/Wayne Root showdown. That would be quite a spectacle…

    Now THAT would be a hullabaloo of a fundraiser!

  26. Michael Seebeck

    Kim, Long is running for LPAL chair, not LNC chair. 🙂

    However, your question is a good one, and it deserves an answer by more sage people in that department than me.

  27. Robert Milnes

    Kimberly Wilder, very astute. About 2008, don’t get me started either! “too right” is absolutely right! What is needed is for left libertarians & radicals & anarchists to take over & let the right have their place under the big tent & mind their place. & why in hell does everyone react negatively when I say Teddy Roosevelt must have been a left libertarian?

  28. Stefan

    Paulie: yes a great idea: Ernie and Wayne. Arizona also has a very special character in the libertarian world, the state of Barry Goldwater and Hess who has his speechwriter and the libertarian west lends itself to it. Ernie is very dynamic, a “radical libertarian” yet also building so many alliances to left and right. He has his own radio show and website – freedomsphoenix – and knows about marketing and campaigning. He was a candidate for gov/sen in the past? or was it Hess? He could be a great leader for the LP. He has been with the LP since a long time, thus very familiar and knows what works and what not plus a very energetic, kind and enthusiastic person as well.

    Yes, interesting about the green-libertarian fusion. One saw it during Ron Paul’s campaign, he also addressed property rights and the need for cleanliness and the market allows all energy models. He received quite a lot of support from Green party advocates and also those that voted for Nader in the past. I also read about a Hispanic woman who is a Green Party member who changed her registration all the way to Republican in order to vote for Paul in the primary! I saw it in the comment section of reason 1,5 years ago. She never thought she would do it. This is very important to consider, I think, especially since the flase perception and description that libertarians are “far right” while “greens” “far left”. One should rather say both are very principled and there are striking similarities, where they differ from the main parties. The followers are generally also very informed, agree mostly on foreign policy and activist. At least some Greens also also classic liberals, with the exception of economics perhaps. But some Greens also like more local gov. rather than big distant govt.

    In the EU it is also interesting that in Germany for instance, some Green Party members are urban CDU voters before and there are also regional differences between Green Party members between those in say Berlin and those in Freiburg i.B. (like Oregon). In the UK both the libertarian UK Independence Party as well as libertarian Conservatives like Daniel Hannan are with the Greens skeptical about the Brussels EU. In the Netherlands the libertarian VVD are developing a green strategy they call “GreenRight”, while there is a party with the name “GreenLeft”. Green House etc. can be commerically benefitial in certain respects, but will take some time to make it commercially viable. And of course there are in the US also the so called “Independent Greens” who split off from the GP and supported a Paul-Bloomberg ticket in VA.

  29. Stefan

    Robert: why don’t you tell or write Stephen that yourself, and how should Southern Liberty translated that coded, sublime message of yours 🙂 ?
    Barr did not want Root as VP, he wanted Gravel or Ruwart and understood well the significance of having a “balanced ticket”. It was only in the end when Root made an announcement in his “concession” speech where he promoted himself to be VP. That was very opportunistic, but we also know neither Gravel nor Ruwart were prepared to be Barr’s VP. I think. Barr did bring something to the table, but if he would have just formulated a few things differently and openly acknowledged he had made a mistake with the Patriot Act and the war. I think he triangulated more to aim at the “right” – which made strategically sense to a certain extent and thought with the Paul support plus some social conservatives, e.g. some of the Huckabee, Thompson and Romney support plus some Independents, he could equal Ross Perot. Thereby Paul’s honesty and non-triangulation and non-pandering have proved to be so much more attractive and successful. Paul’s balance ensured he could attract form the right and left. Barr-Kwiatkowski would have been a good combo, but as Mary Ruwart suspected, Barr had good intentions, but alas he was no so experienced and well versed to know how to defend libertarian principals. Barr was also a bit arrogant, which was a big put-off.

  30. Robert Milnes

    I mentioned this before. On MSNBC after the Von Brunn alleged shooting at the Holocaust Museum Ron Paul’s name came up. They had something in common. I’m not sure what it was. Perhaps publisher or publication.

  31. Robert Milnes

    Tom Knapp, sorry to hijack this thread. My computer crashed. During a thunderstorm. I have a surge protector. I’m now using my old Pent.3 which is very slow & barely supports my Vonage voip. I can’t get the email to work. The computer shop that has it for repair is also the host for robertmilnes.net. He also has an old Dell Centrino xp for sale cheap. 856-456-0040. Can you help me with any of this or can you find someone to help? I need to get to CA & mine some gold asap! I have equipment & experience. Also a partner waiting on me but he is disabled & just recovering from Acute Disseminating Encephalomylitis. He says he can’t do much but would like to try. Anybody?

  32. Jim Davidson

    The best part of Roderick Long’s announcement on his blog was the “Agorist demerits: scale broken” comment. lol

    Many groups get along fine without an office in one city that happens to be convenient for the people in that part of the state. The answer to the “where will we meet” question is met by local pubic libraries, local coffee shops, and restaurant meeting rooms. I’ve even seen effective activist groups run for many years out of some individual’s living room. (The ACLU of Kansas and Western Missouri refers to “Mary goddamned Davidson’s dining room table” as the place for civil liberties activism in Lawrence, KS.)

    With respect to storage, I suspect a similar volume of rental storage can be had for $40 per month. With respect to conference rooms and other features of a “regular office” the executive suite concept isn’t too bad. I wonder, though, whether someone’s economic interest is aligned here.

    What I do note is that $325 x 12 = $3900 which is 78% of an annual budget of $5,000. Now, the entrepreneur in me wants to raise revenues to tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands a year, and open executive suite offices in all the major cities in the state.

    But if someone is going to cut costs, the remaining 22% of the budget seems unlikely to give up much result.

  33. Robert Milnes

    Stefan, I suppose a Barr/Gravel could have been promoted as a fusion ticket. I supported Gravel/Ruwart as second to Milnes/Ruwart but my first choice vp was & still is KK. Angela Keaton second. I also heard Ruwart refused to be vp to Barr so I guess he was stuck with Root.

  34. Robert Milnes

    paulie is right about defacto fringe benefits of renting an office in a large building with good location. For one thing, all those bathrooms!

  35. Robert Milnes

    Tom, Williams-Scotsman nearby has a used 8×32′ construction trailer. Perfect! I could move in & tow it to CA! This is granting my contention that a hooka dive counts as a bath!

  36. Robert Milnes

    Actually the stream water in the CA mountains is very clear, cool & clean. Mostly snow melt. & a little nugget looks huge through a facemask! These things are good for my depression.

  37. Robert Milnes

    If Barr wanted Ruwart, she should have accepted in the best interests of the party. Not refused because Barr isn’t as pure as Ivory Snow.

  38. Thomas L. Knapp Post author

    Bob,

    “why in hell does everyone react negatively when I say Teddy Roosevelt must have been a left libertarian?”

    Perhaps because the claim is so intensely at variance with fact, reality and history that it’s shocking to hear/see someone make it?

    What kind of help are you looking for computer-wise?

  39. Catholic Trotskyist

    When I first read the headline, my first thought was about Huey Long.

    the Catholic Trotskyist Party does not endorse Roderick Long for LP-AL chair, and thinks the Birmingham office should be kept. It has no money to help Robert Milnes to move nearby its own headquarters to gold mine in California, but will pray for him.

  40. Robert Milnes

    I’d like a brand new top of the line laptop. Dual core processor. High definition multimedia. & what’s that thing you can play tv on it? & one of those. But like I said Sam at the Computer Store has an old Dell laptop Centrino xp cheap. That will be ok with my ATT wireless that Bill Sawyer says can help me box & serve tennis faster. Failing that I need my old Pentium 4 repaired. I hope the processor isn’t fried. & I need robertmilnes.net back up & some cool donors to click on it. I can offer hooka diving & gold panning lessons in payment! You can hunt bears there too if you want. Just stare at one for a while. He’ll blink.

  41. Robert Milnes

    Oh, come on. After Teddy won the war he mellowed out. Having slaked his bloodlust. He even gave a little bear a break! He didn’t have to do that, you know.

  42. Robert Milnes

    Once when my mining partner & I were camped near a bridge over a stream these guys came around in a pickup. They had a lot of noisy dogs with neckbands on & a big dead bear. They hacked his head off & took pictures. They invited me to be in one but I said No, thanks.

  43. Thomas L. Knapp Post author

    Bob,

    Well, I’m not exactly rich myself (I don’t live in a trailer, but then again, I’ve got child support for one kid and everyday support for two more) …

    … and my own computer is a “hand-me-down” (thanks again, Hogarth!) …

    … but I think I can find $5 to help you toward getting re-computerized in something resembling modern tech. Matter of fact, I just did. PayPaled.

    I’m not going to publish your PayPal email address here, since I haven’t asked your permission, but if you decide to do so I bet a few other people would help out. Agree with you or not, nobody can deny your entertainment value.

    Seeing as how you get get into a new laptop for $300 bucks or so these days, I advise against spending more than $100 on something used.

  44. Donald Raymond Lake

    Yes, Mister Knapp from eastern Missouri, the cult of do little Libertarianism has totally neglected the upcoming Centennial of the most successful and historic non Democan and non Republicrat ticket of the Twentieth Centruy.

    While the Libs do have really decent icons [Thomas Jefferson, Liberty Bell, Statute of Liberty] verses the pale and pallid Eagles and Eagle Heads of the run of the mill ‘loyal opposition’, Teddy and the Bull Moose [as failed ‘leader’ Steven Gordon and the Alabama dwarfs have stumbled over] is willing and waiting for more needed media attention.

    Suggestions, books, news letters, have been mailed to Birmingham FOR YEARS. I and Citizens For A Better Veterans Home are not Alabama based. How ever, no support for abused veterans [I guess Libs just do not care!] or TR were ever issued.

    Too busy for ‘out side agitators’? —— Gee can’t even return an enclosed self addressed post card with ‘got your package’ scribbled on the back?

    And the dubious manipulations of [so called] Third Party Watch? Even with numerous ‘mea cupas’ the sad sad state of Steve Gordon’s and Bob [some one set my alarm clock] Barr’s debacle of 2008 speaks for it self!

    “George Phillies // Jun 19, 2009 at 11:13 am
    Would you care to write up the situation on the current leadership, which is apparently being completely replaced?”

    Unresponsive and neglectful as they ride to the hounds of various ‘red herrings’, including Bob Barr back door shenanigans ………..

  45. Thomas L. Knapp Post author

    Bob,

    People can send money to you via PayPal using your email address, from their own PayPal accounts, whether you have a web site up or not. I sent the five bucks to your ATT address.

  46. Michael H. Wilson

    I have a bunch of other things to do over the next few weeks, but I’m going to take a few minutes to comment on this issue as to why the LP hasn’t had much success.

    We’ve done wonders on the ballot access issue, but haven’t made much headway on anything else. To be sure some individuals have taken on specifics issues and changed things, but I don’t think the party can say it has had much impact on policy per se.

    Why? Well for one thing we don’t seem to understand much about advertising, public relations, marketing and things that fall under those categories. However one care to describe those things. Sales in other words. Something they don’t teach in college.

    Many, if not most Libertarians are males and not inclined to read news papers ads, but if they did they would find that much of advertising is simply repeating the same or similar message over and over.

    For example a grocery store may stock over 30,000 items, but if you read their ads week after week you will notice that certain household staples are advertised all the time. Different items are mentioned along with those basic staples every week, but for the most part the ads are simply a repeat week after week.

    Perhaps some day we will learn that we need to develop ten or twenty basic issues to hang our hat on until we achieve some degree of success with those few. Not that other issues are less important, but we simply cannot run with everything at once.

    Those issues will need to be repeated over and over in brochures, media releases, on the website, in white papers and letters to the editor. Then maybe we can look back and learn.

    Keep it simple. Keep it consistent & Repeat. None of which we are doing today.

    MW

  47. Robert Milnes

    Well that’s good because bob@robertmilnes.net is defective. So it is better to have a paypal button on a website, right? But since the website is down. OK. My ATT address has been fairly free of spam & unwanted emails over the years. But it is no secret also. Anybody who would like to help out Bob until he can get to the CA gold field: r.milnes@worldnet.att.net

  48. libertariangirl

    Ross Levin // Jun 19, 2009 at 8:52 pm

    FYI, I think I just saw Ron Paul in the trailer for “Bruno,” Sacha Baron Cohen’s new movie.

    me_ yep , and he storms out , I cant wait to see why:)

  49. Steven R Linnabary

    Seeing as how you get get into a new laptop for $300 bucks or so these days, I advise against spending more than $100 on something used.

    Bob, you might want to try volunteering at Free Geek.

    http://www.freegeek.org/

    They have affiliates all over the country, where you can volunteer tearing apart old PC’s for recycling. And they will GIVE you a PC after only 10 hours of volunteer time.

  50. John C

    The Ron Paul in the Bruno movie made news on the internets a long time ago. I guess I won’t spoil it for those who don’t know. I’m sure you can find it on the Google. There is no surprise about what happened or why he stormed out.

    I am a little surprised Ron Paul’s handlers ( Rachel mills or whoever else was there with him) were duped by Sacha Baron Cohen, but maybe not. Thought these people were supposed to be a little more “with it” than Bob Barr folks, for example.

    I haven’t seen it. I am a little curious to see if he comes off a sympathetic old man who was understandably uncomfortable or just another “newsletter” type moment.

  51. Andy

    “paulie // Jun 19, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    Interestingly, Hancock actually has an HQ/warehouse in Phoenix which is a
    huge activity focal point.”

    I’ve been to the Freedoms Phoenix Workshop that Ernie Hancock started and operates. It is an amazing hub of pro-liberty activism. Lots of dedicated freedom fighters go there and plan various outreach activities and make outreach material (flyers, signs, DVDs, etc…). These people are doers.

    One activity that they did recently was that they made up like 30,000 DVDs of “America: From Freedom To Fascism” ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173&ei=EYM8SpmCM47hlQfdxJmlCg&q=america+from+freeom+to+fascims ) and “The Obama Deception” ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw ) and handed them out (along with cards that had http://www.freedomsphoenix.com and http://www.wearechangearizona.com and the r3VOLution logo). Most of the DVDs were handed out on and around Arizona State University in Tempe. Note that Barack Obama gave the commencement speech at Arizona State University and members of We Are Change Arizona were outside the speech venue (Sun Devil Stadium) handing out the DVDs before, during, and after the event. I happened to take part in the DVD distribution as well as the burning and packaging of the DVDs.

    Here are some videos of us handing out DVDs on the day of the Obama speech (check out my rant against socialist healthcare).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7e8PF6loL0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vX3btTTG_g

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCvmu6aN7Rg

    There ought to be something like the Freedoms Phoenix Workshop in every city, or at least every major city.

  52. paulie

    The answer to the “where will we meet” question is met by local pubic libraries, local coffee shops, and restaurant meeting rooms. I’ve even seen effective activist groups run for many years out of some individual’s living room. (The ACLU of Kansas and Western Missouri refers to “Mary goddamned Davidson’s dining room table” as the place for civil liberties activism in Lawrence, KS.)

    With respect to storage, I suspect a similar volume of rental storage can be had for $40 per month. With respect to conference rooms and other features of a “regular office” the executive suite concept isn’t too bad. I wonder, though, whether someone’s economic interest is aligned here.

    You want us to lug all the equipment (see previous comments) out of storage and into a coffeehouse? Why? Instead of cutting costs, we need to greatly increase our membership, level of activity, and fundraising.

    Now, the entrepreneur in me wants to raise revenues to tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands a year, and open executive suite offices in all the major cities in the state.

    Yes, we should raise those amounts, but we should invest them in field organizers. Additional offices will only be needed after we have much, much larger membership numbers.

  53. paulie

    There ought to be something like the Freedoms Phoenix Workshop in every city, or at least every major city.

    An LP slate will run for office in every city then, on the platform of decomissioning it 🙁

  54. Robert Milnes

    Steven R. Linnabary, thank you for the link.
    Evidently there is no affiliate in my area.
    But there is one in St. Louis (Tom). WITS Inc. recycles computers, sells & gives computers, education.

  55. Jim Davidson

    “You want us to lug all the equipment…”

    No Paulie, I don’t. I don’t actually give a shit what you do.

    My mother wrote to say it wasn’t described as I wrote, but, rather, as “Mary fucking Davidson’s …”.

  56. Jim Davidson

    On the topic of field organisers, Angela Keaton recently wrote me to say, “”We need a workshop to teach young female activists to flash bright smiles and wildly clap when hobos with clip boards collect three or four signatures or when some half wit accidentally gets elected to Egg Timer Board.” – Anarchist Bitch and Radical Feminist Angela Keaton on “libertarian activist handmaiden syndrome”

    She also noted that Rod Long running for LPA chair is much like Robert Duvall showing up to a casting call for a reality show.

  57. Robert Milnes

    Everybody, to briefly recap: My disabled friend & I were all set up to move into a place & start 2 businesses. One was the gold business I’ve mentioned. Gold & custom jewelry online. Possible guided tours, dredge lessons & rentals (we have 3), panning lessons etc. He is an experienced expert. I learned mostly from him. I went to CA & helped him move into apt. I got a phone call from my sister about the fire. My father was eventually manipulated into selling duplex I was living in to a convicted lawyer instead of me. Meanwhile my friend got ADEM & lost his apt. He is recovering. If I can get to CA we can try again. But we both are broke & without much alternative. I’ve maxed out my credit cards. As an aside my presidential campaign. I got no contributions. Ron Paul got 35 million. Bob Barr got the LP nomination. McKinney got the GP nomination. Would it have been better if I had gotten the 35 million & the nominations & found a libertarian woman vp for fusion ticket? You betcha! So I need some help with getting to CA for the summer season -better late than never-& with my 2012 campaign. Volunteer on robertmilnes4president2008.com This info goes directly to me. Send paypal to paypal donation (non-political)to: r.milnes@worldnet.att.net.

  58. Robert Milnes

    Jim Davidson, “No Paulie, I don’t. I don’t actually give a shit what you do.” Jim, you come off here as a nasty little shit. I personally hope Paulie succeeds. & maybe the LP too. & what of BTP? I don’t know. But I don’t think I don’t give a shit.

  59. Robert Milnes

    I all but begged Angela to be my vp. She all but said Too busy beating my head against a wall here with anti-war & Prop 8 stuff. Bloody wall! So, knock yourself out, Angela. Then get back to me, ok?
    I’m not sure what the Robert Duvall quote means other than maybe Prof. Long is overqualified?

  60. paulie

    Paulie, hobo with clipboard? How does it feel to get dissed?

    Considering the source, I’ll take it as a compliment.

  61. Kimberly Wilder

    On the subject of Roderick Long:

    Thanks for people who filled me in that Roderick was running for ALABAMA Chair, not national. I read fast, and saw the office discussion which reminded me of GPN national office, and thought it was national.

    Funny, I am on a Left Libertarian yahoo group I always forget to check, and Roderick was on it. So, now I am in the loop. (But, not in Alabama, unfortunately.)

    To Robert Milnes:

    As a fellow commenter (not speaking for or from IPR)…and as someone who also has moments of great enthusiasm…

    It would be helpful if you would post here a little less. Perhaps bundle your thoughts into one comment. Or, just slow down and let a few people answer before you respond.

    Everyone’s voice matters. But, when in your enthusiasm and excitement you post so much, it floods people with information. And, some of your posts are more appropriate personal, so it wastes time.

    You yourself claimed some people were trying to thwart this place as a communication device. But, I fear that your extra posts are doing that, because people have to skim and skip more. Also, usually people can check and if there are lot of comments, they know something is “hot”, “popular” or “interesting.” But, lately, it might only mean that you started over-communicating on a thread.

    Again, I am not trying to be too critical or personal. As a Gemini in the week I was born, my charts accuse me of “babbling and over-communication.” But, please, try to slow down. This site is an important and delicate community of activists. We should all be respectful, and use the platform with care.

  62. Melty

    #59 great thinking MW!
    I say, talk about undeclared war, war spending and massive debt nonstop. Frequently mention wasteful bureaucracy.
    Bring up drugs and sex every chance you get.

  63. Robert Milnes

    Kimberly, @79, thank you for your thoughtful and considerate comment largely directed at me. First, be glad you are not a declared libertarian or I’d be dogging you to be my vp! I am aware of my intrusiveness. I’ve considered starting my own blog. It’s just so much easier to hijack here. I probably wouldn’t post much at all if I were busy doing what I want to do rather than bored & not doing much. Bundling comments seems reasonable since the number of comments is some sort of factor to people. & did you note that I did not participate in efforts to run up the comments in order to outpace the Angela Keaton thread? & also how I started with relevent comment about how I relate to this thread personally & longstanding? @3. & I’d probably comment less if I were less in pain & angry & frustrated. Don’t you think? & also some of this stuff is complex theory that I’m trying to convince is correct. To an audience of obstinate politicos.

  64. Robert Milnes

    Yes, I thought in a previous post some comments were deliberately disruptive as political dirty trick. I am sensitive to that having been the victim of dirty tricks several times that I know of & probably many that I am not aware of which is how it usually happens. That clearly is not my purpose.

  65. Robert Milnes

    For example. I was “snitch jacketed” in a halfway house at a social gathering of several people. That is publicly accused without much evidence of being a snitch. That is deliberately dangerous & sure enough one lummox leaped at me & started swinging. Turns out the purp was a fellow federal probationer who I caught snooping on me several times. He probably was an informant for the FBI dirty tricks dept. The purpose in that particular instance was to get me involved in an altercation with lots of witnesses to get my probation revoked. Which it eventually was. I wound up maxing out on mandatory parole. This was in early 1986. See: The Age of Surveillance by Frank J. Donner.

  66. Mik Robertson

    Alabama Libertarians can elect whoever they want, just as the people of Iran can elect who they want.

  67. Robert Milnes

    Kimberly, another noteworthy book: Radical Man by Charles Hampden-Turner. As I recall, he describes the outer fringes of left & right convergence. I believe you (&I) might be examples of leftists who are so far left as to converge on the right fringe (libertarianism). I have proposed that Teddy Roosevelt was one who was so far right as to converge on the left (progressivism).

  68. Robert Milnes

    LG, A question! Since before your race was born and before your sun burned hot in space (or something like that), I have awaited a question! Short answer: 18 USC Section 876. Long answer?

  69. Robert Milnes

    Sure. I could refer you to my campaign website biography. Basically I was writing what could be called “fan mail” to an anchorwoman in Phila. Unrealized by me every piece of mail attaches federal criminal prosecution jurisdiction. FBI domestic surveillance><covert operations. Basically they manipulated a case against me & manipulated the criminal justice system. They got me. But, ever hear “Never Again!” ? That’s how I feel about them. Lousy bastards. & the courts are their dupes. Now I have a question for you. How old are you?-are you old enough to run for vp for 2012? (You should have seen this coming!)

  70. Mik Robertson

    Nice platform, Matt. Did you get input from anyone else or did you write it yourself?

  71. Jeremy Young

    I like Robert. I think he’s engaging and interesting. My only problem with him is that he’s completely unwilling to listen to and learn from criticism. I speak not of his life choices, which are no one’s business but his own, but of his historical views on Teddy Roosevelt, which he’s completely wrong about and about which he won’t listen to reason.

  72. paulie

    paulie, I do not understand. Assuming Jim is relating an accurate account & quote, the source is Angela Keaton.

    What’s not to understand? Considering the source (Angela Keaton), I take it as a compliment. I won’t talk a bunch of shit about her, though, because that’s one of the things I don’t like that she d0es a lot of, and I shouldn’t do it either.

    Look, if I was to crumble because my classmates had nicer clothes than me, I wouldn’t have made it out of elementary school. It appears that, on an emotional level, some otherwise intelligent adults actually never did. And that’s more than enough nastiness on my part.

    Incidentally, I actually have had quite a bit of financial success at one point in my life, so I don’t particularly care what someone thinks about my appearance or lifestyle now.

    When you diss me, you diss yourself.

  73. paulie

    Matt,

    Some people seem to think that I should run for VP in 2012…

    You’ll turn 30 in 2012. Never trust anybody over 30. You should have run in 2008. You had your chance and blew it, pal.

  74. Donald Raymond Lake

    Jeremy Young: some wisdom from the ages. Perfection is the road to failure! TR and the Bull Moose are flawed icons, but in an imperfect world, TR and the Bull Moose are steps in the correct direction. Non Democan and non Republicrat groups need all the help they can grab….

  75. Robert Milnes

    When you diss me, you diss yourself. Well then right back at you. You know, you have been dissing me for years now. It is really old. & you keep talking greens & libs, greens & libs. But when I say greens & libs, it is time for one of your cute ad libs. As Jay Leno would say, ” What is that?”

  76. Robert Milnes

    Once in a while a comment about Deborah like Bet she is a screamer-is funny. But you keep sticking it in & twisting. Dammit. Actually I have thought about contacting her. She is divorced. Henry Bonilla is one of the Republican party’s best i.e. humanity’s worst. I KNOW I’d be a better man for her than he was. But then maybe the FBI is just waiting to use her against me again, so I hesitate. I don’t need that problem in my life right now. Does that make you giggle?

  77. Robert Milnes

    lg, how about if we try this from another angle? Am I old enough 56 to be your father? -20 years = @36 .’. vp age. OR your grandfather-40= @16?

  78. Jim Davidson

    @79 Kimberly, I suggest that instead of engaging Milnes and advising him on posting, you ignore him. It works better. I know that being a green-red sort, you have an authoritarian streak a mile wide, so you like to make demands of other people. The way to get someone to post less is not to order them around. Besides which, you have a lack of authority.

  79. Jim Davidson

    @97 If you doubt the veracity of the quoted material, by all means ask Angela.

    You’ll note that she does not name anyone in particular. Her comments were directed in response to something Bob Sullentrup wrote, about the reprobates and “sluts” in the LP.

    For my own part, I think hobo could fit your mode of dress and infrequent bathing, Paulie. But there’s no way to be sure it wasn’t Fincher or Jacob she had uppermost in her mind.

  80. Kimberly Wilder

    Jim Davidson,

    Thank you for the dialogue. But, I don’t think I was trying to have “authority”, and expressly pointed out that I did not.

    I was trying to use non-violent communication to gently tell Mr. Milnes how his posting was affecting me. And, hoping that the honest sharing would create change.

    I do think that when any of us get on a binge of over-communicating, yes, ignoring is sometimes the best answer.

    Oh, well. We all have our perspectives, our strategies, and communication styles. Just makes life interesting…

  81. Kimberly Wilder

    Are any of us ever going to post news again? Or, are we all caught up in this tedious tete-a-tete?

    Anyway…I know I am as guilty as the rest at not producing stories.

    There has been rain here in Long Island something like 14 out of the last 17 days or something. And, lots of family stuff…

    Egads, have to get the focus to post instead of just rant and respond…

    Well, also, the big story in NY is the NY State Senate coup. It begs my attention, but doesn’t necessarily fit here as a two times a day story, like at my blog.

  82. Robert Milnes

    Now let’s have another look at that 35 million dollars, shall we? Anybody have a little donor’s remorse here? & this gets back to Steve Gordon.`To be sure he got in on the Ron Paul largesse. Plenty of fine food, drink & cigars, clothes & limos, & fun, huh Steve? While it lasted. & now off to more profitable enterprises? while the LP is mired in feud & membership & financial problems. While I am stuck in personal poverty vicious cycle & the progressive movement going nowhere. The 2 fundraising phenomena of 2008 were Ron Paul & Obama. The right fringe & the left progressive movement co-opted. Paul talking about reforming the RP while ending up endorsing CP nominee Baldwin. Leaving the LP bereft. Who cares about reforming the RP? I certainly do not. Obama winding up winning on the backs of progressives & quickly abandoning one progressive position after another. All of this directly a consequence of the Progressive Libertarian Party being split & suppressed vote & out of power. To be sure if I got that 35 million, none would have found its way to the RP, directly or indirectly. That would have been a BIG NO-NO. I would have gone for federal matching funds which I know is a libertarian sticking point, but I want to win. & Obama & McC. both opted out of the public funding campaign finance reform field leveler. & I would have diverted a lot of Obama’s hundreds of millions also, from progressives with enough sense to see their donations going to the wrong party. & we, the LP & GP may very well have won. Yes, the Progressive Libertarian Alliance Strategy could very well have produced a 10-15% polling in time for the debates. & unlike Nader the progressive alliance would have brought in LP & GP candates victories on its coattails. This still leaves what would have happened for LP vp or my independent ticket vp candidate. Surely some woman libertarian would have joined & some way found to get her on the ticket-I refer to LP rules about the convention delegates chosing the vp candidate. So, how about a DO-Over for 2012? Starting NOW. Go to http://www.robertmilnes4president2008.com & volunteer & help get the website updated. Send Paypal to Paypal non-political donation me @ r.milnes@worldnet.att.net Quit being a dupe & lackey for the reactionary dems & reps. Progressivism is slow, non-violent revolution. Slow Revolution is better than No Revolution.

  83. Michael H. Wilson

    Elsewhere I found this interesting comment;

    “Vladimir Lenin, the first Communist dictator after the takeover of Russia in 1917, is widely credited with the following quotation, “The best way to control the opposition is to lead it ourselves.”
    http://www.checktheevidence.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=199&Itemid=60

    Which seems to be the case in too much of what is happening. We’ve had a rather tepid response to the Administration healthcare plan and the events in Iran seem not to have bothered the big guys in the alternative parties too much. Maybe it is just the weekend. Everything stops at 5 p.m. on Friday.

  84. paulie

    @97 If you doubt the veracity of the quoted material, by all means ask Angela.

    I don’t doubt it at all. It’s trademark Keaton juvenalia. And to ask her, I’d have to be talking to her; even if I wanted to talk to her again, she’s asked me not to. Besides, why would I care?


    For my own part, I think hobo could fit your mode of dress and infrequent bathing, Paulie.

    Showering and changing clothes once a day (with rare exceptions) is not enough? Oh well. As long as we’re communicating by proxy at the level Angela chooses, sticks and stones have broken most of my bones, but words don’t hurt me.

    Then again, I had enough of that kind of conversation in elementary school, so how about some adult conversation instead? In what way does her comment constitute a critique of any sort of moving to a field organizer based model of party/movement growth, if you think it does?

    I’ll grant that implementation details are important, but I think the concept is sound; if you think otherwise, come up with something better than “my clothes are nicer than yours, I have more money and am better looking and more popular.” Angela might think that constitutes a critique of my idea, but that really says a lot more about her than it does about me.

  85. libertariangirl

    Kimberly , the LPNevada Chair lifeguards on Jones Beach for the summer . His name is Joe Silvestri , go say hi , he is awesome and alot of fun , maybe you two could hang out .

    he also volunteers for his local LP while he’s there as much as he can

  86. libertariangirl

    JD)_You’ll note that she does not name anyone in particular. Her comments were directed in response to something Bob Sullentrup wrote, about the reprobates and “sluts” in the LP.

    me__ Who is Sully calling a slut . I gotta read that, where do I find it.

  87. libertariangirl

    RM_lg, how about if we try this from another angle? Am I old enough 56 to be your father? -20 years = @36 .’. vp age. OR your grandfather-40= @16?

    you are old enuf to be my dad ,

  88. mdh

    Although my lesbian friend Lauren who you met at one of the parties at my place does want to have kids, guess they’d have two mommies… 😉

  89. Andy

    “For my own part, I think hobo could fit your mode of dress and infrequent bathing, Paulie. But there’s no way to be sure it wasn’t Fincher or Jacob she had uppermost in her mind.”

    For the record, Paul usually does shower once a day and usually does change his clothes. He usually has clean clothes as well. The only instances where he doesn’t is if he is in the middle of travelling and is unable to do these things.

    Angela could not be refering to me with any type of accuracy because I’ve got lots of nice clothes and have managed to stock away a lot of money.

  90. mdh

    Yeah, Paul and Andy are both not hobo-esque.

    Paul likes to dress down, but given his chosen profession, it’s pretty understandable. I’ve had to brow-beat him into dressing a bit more professionally before so that he could make the appropriate first impression before, but it’s not like I’ve ever known him to walk around stinking or something.

  91. Donald Raymond Lake

    Hard knocks bio: Don Lake was hatched in the Heart Land after WWII. Dad, a former farm boy and tank commander whom survived North Africa, D-Day and the Battle of the Bulge. Mom, a Ma Bell operator and later Western Electric factory line inspector.

    Dad and Mom were not KKK, but, Carolina born, a couple of knotches below: White Citizens Council. They ate Southern Fried food[s] and chain smoked, and had bizarre religious and political believes.

    With parents like this, we siblings [quietly] spent the rest of our lives questioning EVERY THING!

    Like many places out side of the three coasts, the Mid West was the white bread of the political land scape. There existed Dems and GOP —- and mere whispers of ‘others’.

    I have become very suspicious of Dems [LBJ, HHH, and Carter] and GOP [Nixon, Ford] but find most alternative groups as bad [unethical] if not worse than ‘the majors’.

    If I hurt any one’s feelings here, I ask just one question: is my state ment factual?

    My opinion is [from the 1960s] is that the nation of my birth is very illogical and in big, big trouble. And the solution lies with other than the Dems and GOP!

    Hope this helps. 619.420.0209

  92. paulie

    The hobo life is getting me down, I have to say. I eat at fine restaurants pretty much every day and this month I have an apartment that usually goes for $1,600 a month. Later on I’m going to an art and wine tasting/festival. Bummin’ sux!

  93. Robert Milnes

    lg, before this thread vanishes… As you have probably gathered, I’m looking for a woman vp to complement the ticket. In the interests of checking out every possibility, might you be interested?

  94. Robert Milnes

    paulie, I was wondering how you managed. Why is it you seem to have difficulty with having a computer & internet access? Haven’t you picked up a laptop?

  95. paulie

    How many hobos have hookers to do their laundry? I wear the same shirt every day because I have high-class prowstitutes to launder it for me.

  96. Robert Milnes

    DRL, are you located in CA? Where at, approximately? Advisory-I’m trying to get to and locate in CA so I might ask you for something depending on what you say!

  97. mdh

    Or was it?

    In other news, Milnes and Lake living together and stuffing envelopews full of bizarre shit to send to state LP affiliates seems like it might end up working out very well.

  98. Andy

    One time Paulie let me wear that shirt after he did. It was a little weird because I think the hookers hadn’t laundered it and so it smelled like Paulie. Which I liked.

  99. paulie

    Why is it you seem to have difficulty with having a computer & internet access? Haven’t you picked up a laptop?

    I choose not to have a laptop for a variety of reasons. I also have over 90 of the same style of T-shirt (the Belushi animal house T). Just to check the rumors.

    The thing Matt wrote about my laundry, at the last motel I stayed at I had two maids giving me massages, blowing me and washing my clothes.

    I usually drop my clothes off at wash-dry-folds.

  100. Robert Milnes

    lg, …woman libertarian for vp that is. KK is my first choice. She politely declined & has remained open to communication & cordial. Angela #2 says she is too busy with anti-war & Prop 8 stuff. Sweet & Sour Mary #3 has been quite negative. Notified me my emails to her would be blocked. Various possibles for #4.

  101. Michael H. Wilson

    I know some of y’all ain’t specially liken’ the New York Times, but here be a story about none of the above or at least the mexican version of that character.

    MEXICO CITY — With Mexico’s midterm elections two weeks away, the most spirited campaigning has been for a candidate with no name, no face and no particular policy positions. Call him Nulo.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/world/americas/21mexico.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=mexico%20elections%20&st=cse

  102. Andy

    “Andy // Jun 21, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    One time Paulie let me wear that shirt after he did. It was a little weird because I think the hookers hadn’t laundered it and so it smelled like Paulie. Which I liked.”

    This post was not from me, the Andy that usually posts here.

  103. Donald Raymond Lake

    Darn, the herd has discovered the XXXX ’bout Bob Milnes and I co habitating! Hope fully they have not been taking photo graphs. [How to explain ‘things’ to my pastor and my parents?’]

    My tee says ‘Ahnold Hates Vets’! You need to know this as Bob and I are identical non twins!

    Semi seriously, I have been struggling with health problems [room temperature IQ] and grandiose hope for alternatives [Unity08, other centrists] for P2008. Needless to say I am still soooooooo disappointed. ‘We have met the enemy and he is us!’

    VP and other support people? I do not have a clue, for you or the nation. I [Perot, Perot, Nader, Nader, Nader] will probably quietly vote for Uncle Ralph again. That’s ’bout it!

    I am just trying to keep BAN [big time Richard Winger fan], TPW, and IPR honest, and gain a little cheap moral superiority. Again, if you do not like me, even if you hate me, am I factual?

    donlake@ymail.com
    263 Eucalyptus Court
    Chula Vista [Sandy Ego]
    CAlifornia
    91910-3030

    With my health related weight gain [and then weight loss] I have tons of shirts, undies, and socks. I do not use cologne and neither do my paid escourt[s]!

  104. mdh

    I taught Andy Jacobs how to smoke a bowl today. He still doesn’t know how to inhale, but he got the lighting it part down…..

  105. paulie

    paulie, according to Andy you have a distinctive scent. Maybe you can patent it & bottle it. Eau de paulie.

    Better known as the P funk….

  106. Donald Raymond Lake

    Bob Milnes: The [so called] Libertarians For A Better Veterans Home called just now. I hope that they are legit. A necessary force in the 21st Century. Any one know any thing ’bout them?

    “I noticed your link to the Reform party. & Unity o8? How do you connect those dots to Teddy Roosevelt?”

    The Libs have pretty decent icon[s], but most other groups are stuck in the dumb, dumb Eagle or Eagle Head symbols. I directed Teddy and the Bull Moose to all due to the up coming 1912 Centennial. I directed the same to the centrist reform movement as much of the TR /Hiram Johnson [VP] effort was 1912 centrist.

  107. mhd

    We have been investating the so called Libertarians for a Better Veterans Home. We have found that they are a dirty Republican trick run by Republican operatives Eric Blass, Eric Dondero and Mark Montini.

    Blass has been convicted of three DUIs, cocaine, shoplifting, and opening up a bank account with his nine year old son’s social security number, while Montini is best known for illegally using a photo of a gay couple without their permission to go after the AARP.

    The third member of the LBVH troika was observed by Libertarian investigator Jacob Witmer tittyfucking Scott Kolhaas in Anchorage, Alaska and has also been connected to the Joe Lieberman and Rudy Giuliani campaigns. Most recently, Dondero has been observed by reliable anonymous sources as working on a new GOP front, Libertarians and Republicans for Kim Jong Il.

  108. Eric Blass

    The charges by mhd are totally false and slanderous. You can confirm these facts with my good friend, Cindy Frich. I have had nothing to do with LBVH or Libertarians and Republicans for Kim Jong Il.

    The gentlemen referred to in MHD’s post actually worked with me on completely different organizations: Libertarians and Republicans for Pinochet, as well as the Citizens Committee to Restore the Draft.

  109. Andy

    “mdh // Jun 21, 2009 at 10:09 pm

    I taught Andy Jacobs how to smoke a bowl today. He still doesn’t know how to inhale, but he got the lighting it part down…..”

    This not an accurate statement. You did not teach me a damn thing because I’ve smoked bowls many times in the past. You would have still been in elementary school when I was smoking bowls. I just hadn’t touched a pipe a long time and you shoved it in my face unexpectedly and it looked like it was dead and I didn’t inhale that hard because I figured I’d cough. To act as though you “taught” me something is absurd.

    The last time I smoked pot was in Arizona a few months ago and it was in the form of a joint.

    I actually don’t even prefer pot as I’m more of a beer drinker. I prefer dark beers such as Yuengling Black & Tan and Guiness.

  110. Thomas L. Knapp Post author

    Quoth Donald Raymond Lake:

    “The Libs have pretty decent icon[s], but most other groups are stuck in the dumb, dumb Eagle or Eagle Head symbols.”

    In terms of iconography, I highly recommend Lake’s own invention, the “21st Century Peace Symbol” (a peace symbol shape in the form of an electricity-generating wind turbine).

    Unfortunately, a lot of LPers still misunderstand the massively government subsidized fossil fuels and nuclear energy industries to represent “free enterprise,” so I’m not optimistic that Libertarians will be able to bring themselves to adopt the symbol before the Greens wise up and grab it.

  111. paulie

    Getting back to the subject of this thread

    Mike Rster wrote on LPA-announce


    Dear friends of liberty:

    I have been working with the Libertarian Party of Alabama for nearly ten years.

    I was District Chair of Birmingham for about a year where I had a supperclub meeting along with a newsletter every month and had nearly 50 people attend one of our meetings. I was asked to be the Administrator in 2000 and have run the LPA office ever since. This includes keeping financial records, responding to inquiries, paying bills, fund raising appeals, issues of Alabama Liberty, social activities, media appearances, bureaucratic filings, and trips to Montgomery for lobbying. (Mind you this is all done on a part time basis and depending on our financial situation and the wishes of the Executive Committee) I have been intimately involved in the organization and administration of every convention since 2000. In 2001 I coordinated the effort that successfully appealed the Secretary of State’s decision to keep us off the ballot. In 2002, I organized and ran over 50 people on the Alabama ballot along with one of the largest conventions that we have ever organized. In 2003 we successfully averted an increase in ballot access requirements and helped fight the Amendment One Tax Increase. In 2004 I successfully coordinated ballot petitioners and got Michael Badnarik on the ballot in Alabama. Additionally I helped create Independent Alabama – a coalition of third parties and independents to help fight ballot access restrictions in Alabama. Since 2005 I have been involved yearly in a number of legislative efforts including ballot access reduction, voting reform, compassionate care, Real ID, and other issues. In 2007 I was elected Vice Chair but essentially continued most of my duties as before. In 2008 I again successfully coordinated ballot access petitioners and got Bob Barr on the ballot in Alabama.

    I would like to take a moment to thank some of the amazing and incredible individuals that I have gotten to know and to have had the privilege to work with over the years. Mark Bodenhausen, Stephen Gordon, Sarah Wires, Loretta Nall, Harry Browne, Bob Barr, Carla Howell, Dr. James Lark, Dr. Jimmy Blake, Michael Badnarik, Aaron Russo, and many more folks that have sacrificed much for liberty.

    My time with the LPA has now come to an end. I will be resigning as Vice Chair at the upcoming convention. I am also withdrawing my name from the nominations for Chair.

    Thank you again everyone for your very kind support over the many years!

    Mike Rster

    PS Please call me to arrange an appointment to train each of the new officers. I will do my best to ease the transition.

  112. Erik Geib

    Getting back off-topic:

    As far as symbols go, I’ve always wished we’d adopt the rattlesnake (such as on the Gadsden Flag).

  113. Robert Milnes

    Tom, RR there? I checked paypal. The balance is 5.67-ALL of which YOU sent! Remember the $1 experiment? My situation is near critical. I’m broke & maxed out. I’m very low on food & cat food. My Pent 4 is in the computer store. I haven’t heard anything & I’m afraid to ask. My electricity is getting shut off the 24th. I got the notice; I’m not making this up. All I need is a helping hand to get to CA. My mining partner has said he is getting better & would like to try but he insists I get there first. Actually I could do about as well without him. What I mean is his presence would be welcome but not necessary for what I’d like to do. Can you help me fundraise? How about if I announce my challenge to a supervised boxing match? Do you think that could be parlayed into training funding? The training place a camp in the Tahoe National Forest! & while technically you are officially a competitor for the presidency in 2012!!!, reality is you have stated you don’t expect to go beyond a certain point or something like that. So you COULD technically help me with political fundraising. Or some other way of personal donations to paypal. A few generous & sympathetic people. Even a loan or businness agreement like a percentage of the gold found or something. I’m really desperate. I’m sick of being stuck here. How about if you call or email my friend? This is the same guy we discussed about hooking up with Steve Kubby in some way. He wants to go to Santa Clara County OR Mendocino County. My email is not working but my Vonage phone is. Do you want that #? Bob.

  114. Donald Raymond Lake

    Dear [so called] Libertarians For A Better Veterans Home: so, per your request yesterday, I called Harrisburg [207.450.5117] thrice today [Monday June 22, 2009] .

    Give me a ring [we’ll go steady!] when you have some thing to say. Sorry you are seemingly playing silly games. You have little on the net.

    Google ‘LFBVH, and you get page after page on [our California] Citizens For A Better Veterans Home and little or nothing on Pennsylvania or national doings.

    Politics, akin to meteorology hot air fronts.

    Your efforts sound great, how ever like so many Lib efforts, the true, real world impact is nebulous and ephemeral.

    Steve Kubby on the West Coast? Good luck, we have found over the last half decade that there is ‘no there, there’!

    Eric Geil: The rattle snake? I tried mightly in 2005 to promote such with ‘We The People’. Again, some thing out of the ordinary [the Eagle and Eagle Head…..]

    Mike Rster: Will you and Steven Gordon FINALLY admit that what ever you did with Bob Barr and party regulars, you did [FOR YEARS] nothing to link with non Libertarians and or non Alabamians?

  115. Donald Raymond Lake

    ‘Twas the telephone number I was given on Monday. Do these folks even have a clue to what is going on? Ah the modus operendi of the 21st Century Libertarian movement………..

    Mustard or gravy!

  116. Robert Milnes

    Tom, I posted a comment on Greenpartywatch about their suggestions for speakers at their Annual National Convention. July 23-26 Durham, NC. I volunteered myself and suggested Richard Winger (who was mentioned) and KK. Could you contact them & see if they might be interested? You come too.

  117. paulie

    “mdh // Jun 21, 2009 at 10:09 pm

    I taught Andy Jacobs how to smoke a bowl today. He still doesn’t know how to inhale, but he got the lighting it part down…..”

    This not an accurate statement. You did not teach me a damn thing because I’ve smoked bowls many times in the past. You would have still been in elementary school when I was smoking bowls. I just hadn’t touched a pipe a long time and you shoved it in my face unexpectedly and it looked like it was dead and I didn’t inhale that hard because I figured I’d cough. To act as though you “taught” me something is absurd.

    I observed Matt trying to teach Andy how to put it in his mouth and suck on it.

    Andy was trying to get it going in his hand, and there were just not any sparks that way.

  118. paulie

    I actually don’t even prefer pot as I’m more of a beer drinker. I prefer dark beers such as Yuengling Black & Tan and Guiness.

    Same here.

  119. Donald Raymond Lake

    I was TOLD that it was Harrisburg and that time zone was of Pennsylvania…..

    So what is your point Jim? Mind is that these folks contact me [as so many non Democans and non Republicrats continue to do] and then flake off [as so many alternative type are wont to do]!

    We need to handily handle the duopoly establishment, not stumble blindly into the night of the 21st Century.

  120. paulie

    I observed Matt trying to teach Andy how to put it in his mouth and suck on it.

    Andy was trying to get it going in his hand, and there were just not any sparks that way.

    The next lesson will be taking it in all the way and blowing bubbles with it.

  121. Richard Cooper

    Having been chair of the LPNY and drafted by Murray Rothbard as an Alabama LP delegate in 1983 at the National Convention which nominated David Bergland, I certainly have an interest in this.

    1) Activate the membership base to do what?
    He didn’t mention it but I might ask those who say the primary or sole function of the LP is to educate. Educate whom to do what?

    2) I liked the role of both organizing the LPNY and the spokesman role. But if Long doesn’t organize who will? Administrative functions would probably fall primarily on the Treasurer and Secretary.

    3) In the old days before 1989, there probably were better reasons to have an office. But even then my experiences in the LP and other organizations made me skeptical. Today, we have the Internet, Meetup.com, yahoogroups, and other ways to both organize volunteers and give them something to do. My experience is that offices become repositories of dead literature that should be discarded.

    You pay rent 365 days whether you use it occasionally or not. Paying rent so you can store stuff that you could store in activist’s homes or in storage lockers that are rented doesn’t seem worthwhile to me.

    You have temporary office spaces with excellent facilities over much of the country. See http://www.hq.com and http://www.regus.com. I see they have facilities in Alabama. You can rent a space by the day, week, month or longer.

    The money saved on an office I would rather spend on advertising and or paying the organizer fees with Meetup.com for three months or six months to organizers in counties that have no local LPs.

    My experience is that people try to do things that shouldn’t be done all or could be done in other ways to justify the expense of the office.
    The office becomes an end rather than a means. I know someone who believes in having an office for the sake of raising money–to fund the office.

    I would rather have people volunteer in their own counties than driving three or four hours to Birmingham. Let Mobile Libertarians do something in their area and so forth.

  122. paulie

    Yes, he does, up until he starts talking about the office. That was much better addressed by the quotes from Mark Bodenhausen and Rachel Hawkridge and additional discussion I provided further up in the thread.

    Russ Anderson has offered to “Keep the office (even if I have to pay the rent myself)” if we elect an alternative, pro-growth slate.

    I’ve offered to run for chair of vice if need be, if I can make it down there for the convention.

  123. Donald Raymond Lake

    Richard Cooper: your comments apply word for word to the Greens of San Diego County [California]! Never in the office [San Diego State is nearby], never answers the tele phone, never returns postal requests —— including SASE and post cards………..

    “Follow us guys, we are right behind you!”

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