Libertarian Peacenik blog on Mark Hinkle, Wayne Root and the question of Libertarian Outreach to Muslims, Christian and Jews

This topic was previously discussed in the comments at LNC In Action, but not yet in an IPR post itself. Although this is always true, since this is a contentious topic, I would like to remind our readers that all opinions expressed are those of the author, in this case Thomas Sipos, not editorial statements by myself (paulie) or Independent Political Report. I am posting this for the purpose of discussion.

Thomas Sipos at Libertarian Peacenik blog:

At a recent Libertarian National Committee meeting, Libertarian Party chairman Mark Hinkle proposed increasing the LP’s outreach to Muslims. LNC member Wayne Allyn Root objected.

Here are more details, are reported by Gold America Group:

Mark Hinkle announced he was going to present our party before the American Muslim Alliance, where he had been invited to speak….

Dan Karlan notes that Muslims are the one group that is persecuted [in the U.S.] “It makes sense for an outlying political organization to go after (seek common cause with) groups of similarly-trashed people,” Karlan rationally argued.

Wayne Allyn Root went on at great length as to why the LNC should not be doing this. We believe an accurate quote of his message is:

“So with atheist Libertarians harshly criticizing Christians, do those same anti-religious Libertarians choose to equally criticize Muslims? Do they support Mark going to Muslim religious events?

“Because right now we risk looking anti-Semitic as a political party. Where is our outreach to Jewish groups? Or Christian groups? Seems one-sided and biased for our party to outreach to only Muslims.

“I’m sure it offends most mainstream American voters.

“I wonder if the views of this Muslim organization have been vetted in detail? I would not attend any religious event for any religious group without checking on what they stand for.

“The problem is that many Muslim groups do not agree to Israel’s right to exist. Many do not denounce suicide bombers as murderers. Several seemingly innocuous Muslim groups in the USA have been indicted for raising money for terrorist groups….

“If the LP sends a rep to Muslim events we MUST send reps to Jewish and Christian events too. I volunteer to outreach to Jewish and Christian organizations. Atheists can outreach to whomever they want. We, as a group that should not show bias or prejudice, should be outreaching to every possible group of faith.”

Mark Hinkle tried to restore sense with a question: “Wayne, in the United States, which religious group is more hated, more reviled, more persecuted: Jews or Muslims“?

Probably not expecting the responder, “Jews,” from Scott Lieberman.


Some observations:

Outreach is generally aimed at under-represented groups (as per their percentage of the U.S. population). It appears to me, based on my decades of following the LP, that:

* Jews, atheists, pagans, and Christians are well represented. Yes, the LP has a minor reputation of being unwelcoming to Christians, but I’ve not found this to be so.

* Women and youth are under-represented.

* Muslims and people of color are heavily under-represented.

It’s nice that the LP has so many older, white men of Jewish, atheist, and Christian background. But Libertarians have long griped about the lack of women, youth, and people of color in the LP. So what are they doing about it? How about increasing outreach to under-represented groups?

It’s telling that I’ve not heard complaints about the lack of Muslims in the LP, but it make sense to increase outreach to them as well.

Imagine if a member of the Lily White Country Club suggested outreach to blacks? And someone said: “No, that looks anti-white! It’s racist to outreach only to blacks! We shouldn’t do outreach to blacks unless we do equal outreach to whites!”

That’s Root’s logic.

The flaw in Root’s logic is that the LP’s door is obviously open to Jews and atheists, Christians and pagans. It’s not obviously open to Muslims (or to blacks, or Mexicans…).

As for Root’s worry that Jews or Christians may be “offended” by the LP’s “biased” outreach to Muslims, well, I suppose that in the 1950s some Lily White Country Club members were offended by outreach to blacks (and Jews, and Catholics, and Latinos).

But so what?

If LP members (or American voters) are offended by outreach to Americans of Muslim heritage … let them be offended.

(I can’t speak for other faiths, but I’ve done the research, and I know that good Catholics won’t take offense at Muslim outreach.)


Thomas L. Knapp makes a good observation at Independent Political Report. “Left libertarians” have long griped about Root appearing on far-right, pro-war, and even homophobic shows (e.g., radio’s Mike Savage). Knapp observes:

Root objects to the chair accepting the Muslim group’s invitation, characterizing the chair’s acceptance as an LNC activity that amounts to “the LNC sending a rep” … Three guesses what [Root’s] likely response would be if anyone on the LNC tried to tell him what shows/events he could or could not appear at/on.

Yup. Root demands the right to represent the LP anywhere he wishes (no matter how it reflects on the LP), yet he conversely wants to veto others in representing the LP in ways he disapproves of.


157 thoughts on “Libertarian Peacenik blog on Mark Hinkle, Wayne Root and the question of Libertarian Outreach to Muslims, Christian and Jews

  1. langa

    “[The LP’s door is] not obviously open to Muslims (or to blacks, or Mexicans…). ”

    Ironically, these are arguably the three groups that are currently the biggest victims of government harassment (due to the War on Terror, the War on Drugs, and the War on Immigration). You’d think they would be natural targets for the LP.

  2. Robert Milnes

    once upon a time in the middle of the winter, there was a troll who had stolen a wood burning stove.
    By trial and error, he found that the best way-by far- to get a fire burning, is to put a brick on both sides then a large log 60% across the bricks pushed to the back, then a few smaller logs/ branches 27% across in front of the large log then some small pieces of wood chips, sticks, paper etc -kindling-13% under them in the air flow space made by the bricks.
    Then hit some flint sparks into the stubborn, obstinate kindling until eventually it catches fire.
    The fire spreads to the small logs. eventually catching & consuming the large log.
    A very patient troll.

  3. Steven R Linnabary

    FWIW, there has been some outreach to the Muslim community.

    In September of 2008 the Islamic Society of North America held it’s annual convention here. The society invited McCain, Obama AND Barr to speak.

    The Franklin County LP had a booth the entire week (in a high profile location) at this convention. We were well received. I only wished that I’d had a camera to have my picture taken in front of the “Homeland Security” booth. 🙂

    McCain and Palin came to town but didn’t attend, opting instead to have a photo op buying OSU football t-shirts. Obama came to town and spoke at a suburban high school.

    Also locally, there has been SOME outreach to the local Somali community and to the local Nation of Islam folks.

    Indeed, during my campaign for Columbus School Board in ’99 one of my opponents joined the LP. He is a Nation of Islam disciple. He later dropped out to work the Obama campaign, but we do remain friends.

    One excellent resource is the libertarian-Muslim website


  4. Be Rational

    Reach out to all would-be and could-be Libertarians.

    We need to welcome all libertarians into our big tent LP.

  5. Christiana

    Did anyone ask Wayne Allyn Root what he said? Did anyone read the minutes of the meeting to make sure that he was quoted correclty?
    Did anyone ask someone who was at the meeting is this what Wayne said?
    Until that is done then this whole post is nonsense.

  6. Observer

    Christiana @ 10: I’d love to see Waynes’s comments on whether this episode did or did not happen. Can someone please post any info from him here? Or, better yet, maybe the “de facto spokesman” for the LP will explain himself here.

    It could, of course, be an ugly rumor.

  7. Michael Seebeck

    Libertarians have been dong outreach to Muslims since 9/11. See

    I was there. I wrote the press release that got that story. I saw the obvious look of relief on their faces when they realized we were there for them and not against them. LPEP had a positive working relationship with ICCS until LPEP dissolved in 2004, including the imam speaking at our 2003 LPCO state convention.

    It was not only the right thing to do, but when we got the call, it wasn’t, “should we do this?” but rather, “when should we be there?”

    And I’d do it again in a fast second if asked. Religious freedom of peaceable people is a bedrock of our freedoms, and as libertarians we should support it, even for those paths that not everyone agrees with. And in the post 9/11 anti-Muslim hysteria, taking the stand for rationality and defending those whose only tie to 9/11 was a false guilt-by-association by clueless nutbags, that was not only necessary but completely justified. And damned satisfying, too.

    I can be as critical of Hinkle as anyone, maybe more than most, but in this case, no criticism to him because he did the right thing.

    And yes, I read the LNC-discuss list leak on it when it happened, so I know what was said.

    As for Root, the quotes are accurate. Ditto Karlan.

    Last thing: Nolan’s Last Resolution not only backs up Hinkle, but makes the point lost on Root: we need to welcome others from diverse viewpoints, not shun them.

  8. Pima Community College Conservative Tea Party Patriot

    I’d like to reach out to some Muslims with my M-16.

    “Don’t retreat, reload.” — Sarah Palin

    Pima Community College Conservative Tea Party Patriot

  9. Robert Milnes

    When one refers to the Nolan Resolution, one should specify whether it is the Original or the complete opposite amended version that was passed by the LNC.

  10. Tea Parties Love Big Government

    Two to three years ago, antiwar/libertarian Ron Paul fans used to attend Tea Party Rallies.

    @ 14 offers excellent proof that today’s Tea Parties are largely hostile to libertarianism.

    Root’s views are anti-libertarian — but most welcome among Tea Party/Fox News/xenophobes.

    And since they’re the bigger customer base — that’s where the money is!

    — T. Sipos

  11. Tea Parties Love Big Government

    Not that Root isn’t sincerely Islamophobic.

    This is one of those happy instances where Root’s Islamophobia meshes nicely with his opportunism.

  12. paulie Post author

    @ 14 offers excellent proof that today’s Tea Parties are largely hostile to libertarianism.

    I don’t think @ 14 is actually a Tea Party type. He seems to be a parody of one, as best I can tell.

    Root’s views are anti-libertarian — but most welcome among Tea Party/Fox News/xenophobes.

    And since they’re the bigger customer base — that’s where the money is!

    Do comments like that one make anti-war, anti-corporatism, pro-civil liberties libertarianism seem like a more attractive customer base?

    Root’s views are something of a mixed bag and work in progress. I try my best to be positive and helpful, as well as to promote other perspectives on libertarianism at the same time.

  13. Robert Milnes

    What a pathetic joke the LP is. & the libertarian movement Dominated by rightists. Supporting Ron Paul & Rand, TP counterrevolutionaries. Barr dictator licker. Very embarassing-made national news. Root, rightist. paulie supporting Paul & Gary Johnson, rightist/GOP.
    George, purge & takeover.

  14. paulie Post author

    @ 6

    Let me guess. You are that troll?

    Was it that obvious?

    @ 9

    Reach out to all would-be and could-be Libertarians.

    We need to welcome all libertarians into our big tent LP.

    Yes, absolutely. But don’t let them redefine libertarianism as something in favor of bigger government on any set of issues.

    @ 10, 11, 13

    As far as I have been able to determine the leaked quoted emails are genuine.

    I talked to Wayne about it in a non-confrontational way (basically the same thing as I said in #8 above) and he did not say he was misquoted.

    @12 Glad to hear the outreach work is happening. Hope to hear of more.

    @ 15 While there are some differences between the original and amended versions, I believe you are vastly overstating them.

  15. Country Steamer

    Of course, Milnes (19 and 21) is not a libertarian, he is a self described Progressive and fan of Teddy Roosevelt.

    George, purge & takeover.

    Mary, purge & takeover.

    Maybe they would if they could, but they can’t so they won’t.

    And in most likelihood their opponents won’t be either, at least not nearly as much as they would like to.

    They’ll have to learn to live with each other, like it or not, or go away mad.

  16. Robert Milnes

    @20. I say somebody took a copy of Nolan’s resolution-scoring brownie points-to the designated government think tank, & they morphed it into its exact opposite & engineered its amended version into the LNC.
    Therefore the LNC is not only dominated by rigfhtists, it is infiltrated by operatives and controled by the government.
    Purge & takeover.

  17. Country Steamer

    And on the other side Don Wills, and many other people over the years – both extreme and moderate – who have chosen not to work together with each other, while others have made the opposite choice.

  18. Pima Community College Conservative Tea Party Patriot

    “I don’t think @ 14 is actually a Tea Party type. He seems to be a parody of one, as best I can tell.”

    Not true.

    I’m a true red blooded American. My gun is firm, long, wide barreled, upright and ready, and my finger is always on the trigger.

    I hate gays and Mexicans with a passion. Nothing makes me madder with passion than a gay man or a Mexican, or especially a gay Mexican, with his shirt off and his muscles glistening with sweat. I hate them so much that my veins start bulging out, my nose flares, and I get all red in the neck and face. My gun gets just about ready to go off every time I see one, that’s how mad I get.

    I also hate the Islamic bastards, although I gotta say I kind of admire how they control their women.

    I support the troops and the police. In fact no one is a bigger fan of men in uniform than I am.

    I am also a Christian patriot. What I love the most about Jesus is His fervent nationalism, His support for the troops and wars of liberation, and His unabashed free market capitalist economic views. Like when He said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a poor Mexican to get into heaven. Jesus is my kind of tea party patriot!

    Another of my favorite Bible quotes: Go to war on your neighbor before he does it unto you. Couldn’t have said it any better!

    How can someone be a true Christian when they can’t even read the Bible in the original, English language, King James Version?

    Jesus spoke English Only, so why can’t the illegal Mexican invaders and all the other foreigners coming into this country to take away our jobs? Don’t they understand that in a free market these jobs rightfully belong to native born Americans?

    Like the citizens of Tucson 150 years ago, I support secession.

    As a former confederate territory, Arizona should secede from the union and round up and deport all the Mexicans. Then, since, slave holders were never compensated for having their slave property seized, the descendents of slaves living in Arizona should pay reparations to the descendents of slave owners.

    The ones that don’t have the money to do so should be put to work as cooks, maids and gardeners, since we won’t have the Mexicans around anymore.

    I hear that Bristol Palin recently moved to Arizona. Her mother, Sarah Palin, is my heroin.
    I love it when she said we should target liberal politicians like Gabrielle Giffords and, I quote, “don’t retreat, reload!”

    BTW what kind of guns and ammo are you into? I like ‘em big, personally.

  19. Pima Community College Conservative Tea Party Patriot

    I have an idea, it will make America, and the world much better off.

    First we take all the Jews, Arabs and Muslims round them up and send them to the middle east.

    Next we get all the Mexican and Central American illegals and send them to there home countries.

    Then we drop nukes on them until they all die.

    Then we pop open a can of Coors Lite and shoot off fireworks, celebrate the 4th of July and high five “USA #1! USA #1!”

    Also, I think Jean-Claude Duvalier would make a great president as well. What I have to wonder is, if we have to have a foreign born negro as President, why does it have to be a Marxist Communist Muslim like Barack Obama, and not a good Godly man like Jean-Claude Duvalier?

    Do we really have to let Haiti have him back as their President, or can the US get first dibs?

    Julian Assange should be treated as an enemy combatant, and as far as drawing and quartering being unconstitutional…

    The constitution does not apply to enemy combatants and besides, if we make it commonplace, it wouldn’t be cruel and unusual punishment now would it?

    I’m not Chelene Nightingale, but she sounds like she has some good ideas. So what if she spells rhinos as rinos? Pamela Brown also spelled it RHINOS in the California official election booklet and she got 5.86% of the vote.

    My favorite part is where she says

    “Controlling the border to prevent illegals from committing crimes and terrorist acts and siphoning billions in services is a top priority. ”

    Why not just allow all Californians to shoot suspected illegals on sight? That would be a cost efficient way to keep those varmints from crossing the border. We sure would love to have a law like that here in Arizona, too.

    The part about cutting taxes during a disaster made a lot of sense as well. One time, a flash flood washed away my trailer and I remember sitting there, looking at the wreck that remained of all my former belongings and thinking “you know, what I could really use right now is a tax cut.”

  20. paulie Post author

    once upon a time in the middle of the winter, there was a troll who had stolen a wood burning stove.

    Did he get much action?

  21. paulie Post author

    That was from

    Put your hands in the air for the girls of winter!
    Sometimes Mark and Todd just prefer breath to breasts.

    directed by Tom Small
    music: Jake Chudnow
    lyrics: Mark Douglas and Todd Womack


    Aww yeah lay down that sensual massage jam cus its wintertime.
    Ohh its cold, but I like it
    You slip you gloves on
    Slip your gloves on
    You wrap a scarf around your neck and face
    Like a sexy Russian peasant if there is such a thing
    Then you get one of them things that’s not a hat or a headband. It’s kinda both
    What the hell do you call that head muff hatband?
    I don’t know but it’s sexy as heeeeeell.
    And I’m willing to bet it was on sale.
    It’s wintertime and the livin’ is freezy
    Women are like dwarves, grumpy and sneezy
    Angry faces and chilly cheeks
    Wind blows so hard that your eyeballs leak
    Well let me tell you bout my particular fetish
    See I like a girl’s nose when it’s runny and reddish
    The colder it is the more I get hot
    I’ll make out with your nose, I don’t mind the snot
    When it’s cold as a witches you know what
    You can call me a squirrel cus I’m bustin’ nuts
    Walkin’ out of the Starbucks with a grande tea
    Puffy coat makes you look like a Manatee
    You hit a patch of ice trip slip and fall
    Right now you don’t feel too sexy at all
    But that’s where you’re wrong girl, you’re lookin’ fine.
    Slidin’ down the hill on your behind
    I don’t care if your classy I don’t mind if you’re trashy
    Just as long as your skin feels dry and ashy
    I’ll take you home and heat you up cus you’re my frozen dinner
    Put your hands in the air for the girls of winter
    Wintertime girls you know you really rock my world
    Snug as a bug in a rug
    Wearin’ nothing but gloves and Uggs
    Wintertime ladies c’mon lets make some frozen babies
    That don’t make no sense.
    Shut up.
    Now we’re back in the pad with two frozen chicks
    I put on some jams, a cool wintry mix.
    There’s no need to rush things lets just chill
    Can I interest you in a vodka Nyquil?
    I got her in the room; she said “my hands are frozen
    Can you turn up the heat?” I said nah it’s broken.
    I’ll suck your frozen toes while you blow your nose
    Lets put on more clothes girl I don’t need to see those.
    Most dudes just wanna see your breasts,
    I wanna turn up the AC and see your breath
    Some like the lights on and some like it dark
    I wanna cover you up like Kenny from South Park
    She said that’s cool I understand the rules
    Let me go slip into something less comfortable.
    She went out then came back covered head to toe
    She was moving kinda slow but she was ready to go.
    We fooled around for a while till we needed some air
    I uncovered her face and it was covered in hair
    Wintertime hoes just made me make out with my bro
    Ewwwwww that was disgusting man EWWW.
    Yeah that was gross, but like if we’re all covered up what’s the difference really?
    That’s a good point.

  22. paulie Post author

    Did some comments get erased again or something? 20 is paulie, 23 is country steamer, neither comment was from Milnes.

    With all this removal of comments and comments getting pulled out of spam and what not, comment number references can get confusing…

  23. Observer

    # 30 and # 31: Hahahahahahaha! You’re so funny! You almost got me again, believing you were for real!

  24. paulie Post author

    It’s the same exact shpiel as every other time, which has been copy and pasted into more than a few IPR threads.

    While some people think it’s funny (your mileage may vary), others take it seriously and we have been getting numerous emails at asking that we take down the “death threats” and concerned that allowing those comments to be posted here could get us in trouble.

    I don’t understand why some many people think this person is being serious, as it is really obvious to me that it is a bad parody of a tea party person.

    But please knock it off.

  25. paulie Post author

    You IPR thought police

    If there were any IPR thought police, you would have been completely banned from posting anywhere on the site a long, long time ago.

    IPR has gone to great lengths to avoid any even slight policing of thoughts, but lately there have been one lawsuit and threats of more than one other, causing the owner to put the site up for sale…without success so far. Another person complained to google news and got us de-listed, thus cutting off literally most of the traffic the site used to get.

    When I go to LP meetings, many, many people have told me that they used to read IPR but don’t anymore because of all the repetitive trolling BS. I can’t even count how many people have emailed or otherwise requested that we moderate comments much more actively.

    A very small number of comments have been removed, either by the author’s request. Or because people’s privacy was violated or allegedly violated, and personal information was posted about them. Or very, very over the top, sexually graphic and gross accusations with no proof.
    A very, very tiny number of comments have been removed because a very small handful of subjects were flogged by a tiny handful of people in so many unrelated threads so many times that it was drowning out most other discussions. Then, when we set up threads so those handful of subjects could be discussed freely without bothering everyone else who was complaining about them, that same small handful of people kept flouting the policy.

    We are talking here about dozens of comments removed out of over 115,000 that have been posted in over 2 1/2 years.

    Thousands of which could be considered defamation, spam, trolling. or some other obnoxious behavior that a real moderator would have cut off immediately.

    So, instead of people saying thanks and playing nice, we keep hearing complaints about “IPR thought police” and continued blatant attempts to ignore the very few rules we have.

    Want to know what total lack of moderation would look like? We could turn off akismet automated spam filtering and hundreds of viagra ads, long lists of porn links, jibberish in foreign languages and poor translations by non-native English speakers or translation programs, every type of commercial ad imaginable would so clog the comments that it would not be long before that was all that would be left.

    We get hundreds of those things every day. “Akismet has protected your site from 211,183 spam comments already.” that since january 2009, before that we had mandatory registration to post comments and we only had maybe 100 spam comments from May to December 2008.

    Want to know what real “thought police” moderation would be like? Keep playing games, and it will get a lot worse – and not because of me, it will be the owner’s decision or a group decision by IPR writers. And even that won’t be thought police in the original sense, just an attempt to keep discussions on topic and civil.

    But I’d really like to avoid IPR going to that level of moderation. I prefer the free flowing discussion we have now, as long as it is not too severely abused. So, to keep it from becoming less free, please be voluntarily less abusive. Please. I’m asking nicely.

  26. paulie Post author

    You IPR thought police should let each other know what the other is editing!

    Oh – one other thing. Sometimes, the comment number references get thrown off because someone (usually me) actually took the time to look through hundreds of spam crap comments to find a small handful that the automated filter accidentally traps by mistake. The system makes very few mistakes like that, but it does happen. Some people will at least let us know when it happens, and then we are more likely to go looking on your behalf. Others immediately start spouting off about “censorship,” as if someone has the time to sit here and pre-approve all your comments. Trust me, no one has anywhere close to that kind of time.

    A lot more comments have been rescued from the spam filter than spam comments or the small handful of others I mentioned in my last comment removed.

    But yet we hear a lot more complaints than thanks. And the complaints include people who want certain comments removed and others who object to those same comments being removed.

    And it is getting worse and worse. The signal to noise ratio is going down, and the complaints becoming more frequent and strident.

    Not good.

  27. Mark Seidenberg


    Pima Community College Tea Party Patriot is the
    same as The Mad Monk on other sites.

    The events in Tucson of March 28, 2011, will be remembered at a sesquincentennial event in Tucson. Remember that the late William Shearer
    founder of the American Independent Party at his
    library in Lemon Grove, retold the events of Arizona Congressman Marcus Macwillie to the Second Confederate Congress went into hiding
    and excile so he would not be reconstructed or take the Oath.

    I am putting an event together in Los Angeles to
    honor the formation of the Los Angeles County
    Mounted Rifles on March 17, 1861. The Los Angeles County Mounted Rifles one of the organized units of the California State Militia went into Arizona territory to help the people
    of Arizona in removing federal troops from their
    territory during the War between the States.

    If this person from Pima had any complete knowledge of history, he would know that the
    Newmark family helped organize the Los Angeles
    County Mounted Rifles and fund its entry in to the
    Civil War on the side of the CSA.

    Sincerely, Mark Seidenberg

  28. Robert Milnes

    paulie, if IPR is having problems like lawsuits, complaints, Google gagging etc, I’d take a look at government or GOP operatives. If I were them, I’d screw with you BIG TIME. In addition to screwing with LP, BTP, GP, David Nolan & his resolution etc.
    & shirley you realize YOU post more than anybody else. If i were the type, I’d have omplained about your ad hominem a long time ago.
    Crazy? Crazy am I?
    AH, ha, ha, ha, ha!

  29. Matt Cholko

    Paulie and everyone at IPR – Thanks for all of your hard work to make this site such a great one. Though few of us say it, most of us DO appreciate your efforts and understand that you’re not trying to silence anyone.

  30. FYI! [More Don Lake]

    The need is great. If we alternative types cannot defeat the establishment, then may be we can irritate them, or may be make them uncomfortable, or at least leave a ‘paper trail’ of protest! It is the Democans and the Republicrats whom have run us [US?] off into the ditch!

  31. paulie Post author

    Matt – Thank you. I wouldn’t be motivated to keep going if not for legitimate discussion that takes place in the comments (despite all the background noise).

  32. paulie Post author

    The need is great. If we alternative types cannot defeat the establishment, then may be we can irritate them, or may be make them uncomfortable, or at least leave a ‘paper trail’ of protest!


  33. paulie Post author

    “[The LP’s door is] not obviously open to Muslims (or to blacks, or Mexicans…). ”

    Ironically, these are arguably the three groups that are currently the biggest victims of government harassment (due to the War on Terror, the War on Drugs, and the War on Immigration). You’d think they would be natural targets for the LP.

    If we learn to emphasize peace and civil liberties issues, make a case for a true free market from a bottom up perspective of opening doors (rather than a top down perspective that paints currently existing big business as the good guys and rhetorically appeals mainly to self-interest of the “haves,)” but – most importantly – actually make the effort – we can make tremendous headway.

    The passive recruiting model (waiting for people to come to us on their own and then prove they are worthy) doesn’t work too well.

    Waffling on those issues – drug war, migration rights and “war on terror”/peace/military spending – due to the imbalanced effects of past (mostly passive recruiting) does not help.

    Neither does lack of real political activity (do nothing meetings don’t invite a lot of return business). Actively recruit salespeople for liberty and then set them to recruiting others, don’t wait for libertarian-leaning introverts to discover us and prove their verbal dominance on internet fora.

    And coming into an all-white or nearly all white, overwhelmingly male meeting does not make many people very welcome. Maybe it shouldn’t be that way, but it is.

    All of these things can be overcome if and when some effort is applied to overcoming them.

  34. Robert Milnes

    @50, legitimate discussion that takes place in comments? You mean such that you are involved with. That you control & stamp with your opinion. I’v e seen it many times. I’ve called it IPR-the world acording to paulie. & when I or others come along with something that doesn’t quite fit-ridicule, or something.
    You realize how much crap i’ve taken from you acout Deborah K & mental illness & 1 conviction? Over years? Did you ever stop to think that YOUR negativism has influenced others to be negative towards me? You asshole. You try taking on the FBI. That whole thing was a nightmare for me. & it is still not over.I have tried explaining it but it is an uphill struggle because people like you just don’t get it.
    & then there is Tom K. who just doesn’t get it either. He wants anarchy & he wants it now. Or he walks awayn like a
    spoiled brat.
    & I’m lucky to not have been edited out & banned a long time ago? I don’t think so.

  35. paulie Post author

    You mean such that you are involved with.

    Why, yes. Although admittedly, I’m far too easily distracted by replying to crap that simply deserves to be ignored (or would just be deleted if there was an “IPR thought police.”), like I’m doing right now. That’s a weakness I have. And it does help get discussions off track, which is one of the reasons most sane people shy away from participating here and then stop even reading.

    you control & stamp with your opinion

    Of course I express my opinion. Why would I waste my time posting stories here if it was not to create space for the conversation I want to engage in the comments? You might notice that I post most of the articles. When I’m here, we average maybe around 10 articles or more per day and well over 100 comments. When I’m not, we get maybe 20 articles a week and 40 comments a day or so.

    And as for control…not hardly. I’ve asked nicely that people stop making my volunteer task here unpleasant @ 40-41 Instead I get several more crap comments from yourself and one more from another (fake tea party) troll, plus the thing from Seidenberg. To be fair, Cholko was nice and Lake said something good.
    George Whitfield was at least decent.

    But more importantly, my attempt to steer things back to the actual original topic of discussion, @ 44 and 52, has so far gone nowhere.

    I’v e seen it many times. I’ve called it IPR-the world acording to paulie.

    I’ve recruited more than a dozen people to write here. I’ve tried to encourage them to do more. I have promoted the site in other fora. Other people decide how much or how little they want to participate.

    Unfortunately, several mentally ill people with no jobs and no lives have decided to participate a lot in the comments and make it their own personal litter box, so naturally most other people don’t feel like wading through all that to have a decent conversation. It’s precisely the lack of moderation control that is at fault. Not that I want to waste my time being a playground monitor. Neither does anyone else that writes here.

    I or others come along with something that doesn’t quite fit-ridicule, or something.

    I only ridicule the ridiculous, and even there, I hold myself back a lot. So long as I am going to be subjected to a constant torrent of written sewage and aforementioned nut litter, at least I can every once in a while make light of the situation.

    I’m lucky to not have been edited out & banned a long time ago?

    Very, very lucky. This is not your personal litter box and no one is obligated to sit here and spend hours every day providing you with one at no pay. I can’t even count how many people have asked that you be banned.

    And now that I’ve done my part to contribute to why people don’t want to participate in these discussions, would anyone like to get back to the actual subject matter of the thread, or are we going to keep talking about how much of a thought police asshole I am and never let them express themselves? As if.

  36. Thomas M. Sipos

    Milnes, you are shown a great deal of tolerance at IPR.

    I think it’s because: 1. people feel sorry for you, and 2. you’re harmless.

    Harmless, because you have no influence.

    And so people humor your delusion that you’re a presidential candidate. They smile as you email libertarian women, trying to recruit one to be your running mate.

    No, the FBI is not out to get you.

    And no, the GOP is not trying to control IPR so as to subvert the Boston Tea Party, as per your @ 45.

    The BTP is not a serious political party. You are not a serious presidential candidate. And Teddy Roosevelt is irrelevant to contemporary politics.

    BTW, Paulie, I think IPR’s strong point is its relative lack of moderation, and its anonymity. It encourages free speech, so I welcome it despite any trolls or harsh comments.

    I recommend that you simply ignore insults aimed at you, as I ignore those you insult me.

  37. paulie Post author

    BTW, Paulie, I think IPR’s strong point is its relative lack of moderation, and its anonymity. It encourages free speech, so I welcome it despite any trolls or harsh comments.

    It definitely has an upside as well as a downside. The downside has been acting up more lately, unfortunately.

    I recommend that you simply ignore insults aimed at you, as I ignore those who insult me.

    I try, but I’m far from perfect.

    Any thoughts on comments 44, 52, or others more directly related to the original topic?

  38. Thomas L. Knapp

    Milnes @53:

    “& then there is Tom K. who just doesn’t get it either. He wants anarchy & he wants it now. Or he walks awayn like a spoiled brat.”

    Walks away from what?

    Yes, I want anarchy.

    Yes, I want it now.

    I understand that I’m not going to get it now, so I’m doing what I can do to get it sooner.

    Once I finally understood that electoral politics in general and the LP in particular were unlikely to help me achieve my goal, yes, I “walked away” and turned my whole attention to activities that might help me achieve my goal.

    Is there some particular reason why I should invest my efforts in achieving your goals instead of my goals …

    … especially when you refuse to invest significant efforts of your own toward your goals? So far as I can tell, the sum total of your efforts is bitching on IPR because the rest of the world won’t load your ass in a sedan chair and carry you to the White House.

  39. Matt Cholko

    We’ve had this discussion at the local level here in northern VA many times. The population as a whole around here is about 50%, 20% Hispanic, 15% Asian, and 15% everything else. However, LP activities are almost always 95% to 100% white. In the long run, this is a certain path to (even more) defeat. If we can only appeal to white people, even if we get every white person on our side we will be back in the minority by the end of my lifetime.

    We MUST figure out how to bring in ethnic and religious minority members if we hope to grow this party. I wholeheartedly support LNC members (or any Libertarians) going to speak to organizations that represent minority groups. In fact, I’d almost rather that we focus our efforts on these groups.

    If you’ll allow me to paint with a very broad brush here, I’ll add this – if we target groups or people who have less history in the US, we will probably find that they are less “married” to the Rs or Ds. Maybe we can get them to marry the Libertarian party and eventually members of their family will be faced with the “my parents were Libertarians, as were my grandparents, so I’m a Libertarian too.” Whereas with white, American, Christians we must work to overcome this kind of thinking.

  40. Gains

    I’ve observed that the adage, “birds of a feather flock together,” is a pretty good one for describing most people’s default behavior in a group culture. Because of this tendency, organizations that want to represent a diverse set of peoples must create an atmosphere that allows cultural minorities of all stripes (including ideological) to operate with an expectation of fair play and alliance.

    Even then it is an uphill battle to get a new group to a tipping point inside an already imbalanced one. But without an expectation of fair play, those efforts are very likely to fall apart early as the sharks eat them early to maintain their dominance in a top-down food chain.

    Birds of a feather plays out in a lot of interesting ways that most people are not necessarily cognizant of even and especially when they are in the midst of acting one out. If you ever find yourself or someone saying, “not one of us,” or “needs to go,” or any variant no matter how many reasons you might have, I assure you that you are engaged in this behavior.

    Minds that are trained and attuned to justice are not incapable of injustice themselves. I might argue that most people who find the most affiliation with the concepts behind justice are are naturally prone to being a bit narrow and coincide with a desire to control others. It seems to hold true even when the interest in justice is towards freedom. I think these things are human corollary, and like all such personality commonalities are interesting in the general for generalized observation.

    At the level that you want your movement to welcome and engage the body politic. You must have a culture that welcomes and engages the body politic and with determination disallows purge behavior.

    You do not have to like nor embrace everyone that is in your coalition. You do need to respect their presence as an ally and an ally to allies.

    You do not give up your core ideology, you just have to act in faith that it is as resilient in application as it is floating around your head space as an abstraction.

    It seems t when your ideology forbids the application of force or fraud to spread or promote it… you are left with making friends and setting a good example.

  41. Michael H. Wilson

    This is one of my favorite topics and I’ll try doing more on it later. But in the meantime we should be promoting issues that help the minority groups such as opening the transit market, repealing laws that restrict midwives, school choice programs, housing regulations, etc.

  42. Michael H. Wilson

    Here’s a piece I am working on for use as a brochure on transit. In it I try to address a couple of issues including those related to low income workers, but also pollution and other urban problems.

    In February 1915, 518 private jitneys in Seattle carried 49,000 passengers daily. (Jrn Law & Econ)

    Opening the inner city transit market to private bus companies, jitneys, and ride sharing taxis regardless of whether they are corporations or mom and pop part-time businesses will provide other alternatives to the private car and help reduce consumption of fossil fuels resulting in cleaner air, a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions, slow the development of farm land, reduce city street congestion, save tax dollars and most importantly improve the lives of low income people while reducing the social problems associated with poverty.

    A Brief History: The transit industry is one of the most heavily regulated in the nation. In many cities it is almost impossible for you to own a transportation business because of the rules.

    Private cars called jitneys whose owners offered to carry passengers for a fee in the 1900s were the first victims of laws that were passed to protect the streetcars when jitneys began to appear on the streets about 1915. By the mid 1920s most cities had outlawed jitneys to protect the streetcar businesses which were owned by the electric utility companies.

    Streetcars had been in decline for a number of years then in 1935 Congress passed the Public Utilities Holding Act that required the streetcar companies to be sold off from the electric companies that owned them. This led to the collapse of the streetcar business. The Supreme Court upheld the 1935 Public Utilities Holding Act in a 1946 decision known as North American Company v Security Exchange Commission.

    In 1964 Congress passed laws that spurred the development of government operated local transit agencies.

    Transportation Alternatives:
    In the 1980s most of the public transit in England was turned over to private companies.

    Helsinki, Finland: Fourteen private companies now operate much of the region’s bus service through competitive bidding. A 30% reduction in operating costs and a saving in subsidies has been achieved. Fares have been reduced by 12% and services expanded.

    Stockholm, Sweden: In 1993 Stockholm began using private contractors to run their bus and rail system. Savings of nearly $150 million annually and reduced subsidies have been two improvements along with increased farebox revenue and more riders. Approximately 70% of the region’s bus service has been contracted out.

    Copenhagen, Denmark: Similar results have been seen in Copenhagen where contracting out has been mandated by the Danish parliament.

    Curitiba, Brazil: This transit system has been called one of the world’s best systems. With neighborhood circulators, intermediate services and express buses, all color coded, run by 16 private companies and overseen by a government agency this unsubsidized system is being copied by cities in other countries. With approximately 75% of the region’s 2.3 million daily commuters using the system, Curitiba sets an example of what can be done to build a modern effective service for a fraction of the cost when there is a willingness to innovate. Curitiba uses 25-30% less fuel then comparable cities which reduces air pollution giving Curitiba some of the cleanest air of any Brazilian city.

    Who Benefits from expanding transit services by opening the marketplace?
    “The lack of personal mobility has economic, social and human costs, such as higher unemployment, reduced tax revenue, greater welfare and medical costs, and limited social potential.”
    • “Almost half of those without an automobile are persons 65 years or older, and of these, 81% are women.”
    • “…23% of full-time working mothers and almost 60% of part-time working mothers have non-traditional work hours. This reduces women’s ability to join carpools or find appropriately-scheduled transit options.”
    • “…nearly 40% of central city African-American households were without access to an automobile, compared to fewer than one of out five white central city households.”
    Source: Using Public Transportation to Reduce the Economic, Social, and Human Costs of personal Immobility National Academy Press

  43. Michael H. Wilson

    paulie I wasn’t paying much attention when I posted the piece above. The bullet point paragraph should be just before the one that begins the Brief History. How it got moved is beyond me. 😉

    If you wish to just move it around fine. Otherwise I can do it and resend it.

  44. Bonnie S

    I just tried to “reach out” to Dean Ahmad on Facebook, for a little advice on responding online to the Egypt revolution. Haven’t heard back yet — he might be a bit busy with all that liberty stuff. Does anyone know why he isn’t seen around as much? (Or am I mistaken about that?) and is that perhaps instructive here?

  45. Bonnie S

    and Paulie…after almost a decade of trying to keep a complete free speech policy while moderating LPNY lists for spam…I know what you mean. Criticized from one side for keeping the list unmoderated and letting some people “ruin” the list, criticized from the other for potsings trying to convince them to be more civil (as an alternative to just deleting the nasty internecine squabbles).

    Keep it up if you can — I eventually had to give it up to keep my blood pressure at a reasonable level…I was very saddened at the abuse of the medium and our time by my fellow libertarians.

  46. LibertarianGirl

    oh , and P , feel free to quote me unless explicitly told otherwise , as a free voice ( non excom member_) for the 1st time in a decade i will say whatever the hell I want to .

    i have nothing mean to say right now , no accusations to lodge , no names to call anyone, just a very deep seated feeling of embarassment and regret , bordering on depression… sorry to disappoint you all

  47. Tucson TEA Party

    Pauli Girl is a whiny little bitch.

    Eric Dondero rocks and Sonny Landham rules! Maine Republican tells the truth.

    We need more Landham-Lieberman-Palin-Beck-Dondero Libertarians

  48. Tucson TEA Party

    I make ever loving war to your ass with my gun like Jesus said to do in the Bible, in the name of the Holy Virgin, the bullets will explode out of the barrel in a hot load with no warning and no lubrication.

  49. Catholic Trotskyist

    I am a Milnes fan and an Ogle fan, and one of those who has been accused of being a mentally ill troll on here (although I do have a job and a life). But I also think Paulie is doing a great job here at IPR, and so are just about all the other writers and editors here. Paulie is a very fair person who has defended freedom of speech and engages everyone in discussion in a very constructive way. I support free speech on this site and I recognize that I am lucky to be able to stay here. I admit that I actually enjoy the drama, but when people are actually creating lawsuits, something has to be done, and that’s why I’ve realized that the “Open Threads” for certain topics are necessary. Recognizing that this situation is really serious, I will retire from the Catholic Trotskyist, Last Conservative, and my other characters and stop my more controversial behavior for the time being. With the exception of the US Parliament Open Thread.

  50. Robert Milnes

    pazulie, I remember when you had a lot of fun at Lake’s expense.
    Do you know ANYTHING about mental illness?
    R,.D. Laing indicted the entire mental health system.
    How about Freud>Reich? Reich died in Lewisburg Penitentiary.
    I for one am sick & tired of you & lg rooting for Root & talking up Gary Johnson, GOP.
    What we need is a radical leftist/radical libertarian ticket & an inclusive progressive movement to garner enough votes for them to win.
    Not Gary Johnson or Wayne Root or Ron Paul.

  51. Robert Milnes

    Tom, if you would take on my campaign manager position I would say if my campaign gets going I could make that a paid vpopsition. & then convince Mary or someone equivalent to be vp, I could take that to the progressives leftists & get their attention-at least.
    But nooooooooooooooo.
    You have better things to do.

  52. paulie Post author

    I just tried to “reach out” to Dean Ahmad on Facebook, for a little advice on responding online to the Egypt revolution. Haven’t heard back yet — he might be a bit busy with all that liberty stuff. Does anyone know why he isn’t seen around as much? (Or am I mistaken about that?) and is that perhaps instructive here?

    Yeah, it’s pretty instructive. I don’t know whether he is still involved with the LP, but certainly not as involved as in past decades. He is definitelt still a freedom activist.

  53. paulie Post author

    I am a Milnes fan and an Ogle fan, and one of those who has been accused of being a mentally ill troll on here (although I do have a job and a life).

    I think the difference is that you are not actually a mentally ill troll, you just play one on the internet 🙂

    But I also think Paulie is doing a great job here at IPR, and so are just about all the other writers and editors here. Paulie is a very fair person who has defended freedom of speech and engages everyone in discussion in a very constructive way.

    Thank you. I try.

    I support free speech on this site and I recognize that I am lucky to be able to stay here. I admit that I actually enjoy the drama, but when people are actually creating lawsuits, something has to be done, and that?s why I?ve realized that the ?Open Threads? for certain topics are necessary.

    I wish people would use them for their intended purpose and not continue to post on those subjects in unrelated threads. Thank you for being reasonable.

    Recognizing that this situation is really serious, I will retire from the Catholic Trotskyist, Last Conservative, and my other characters and stop my more controversial behavior for the time being. With the exception of the US Parliament Open Thread.

    Part of me is definitely sad to see you go, although there are people who don’t distinguish what you do from what the real, serious trolls do and it all blends in for them. At the very least you deserve your own open thread. We can use the old one if you want….

  54. Robert Milnes

    libertarians, you wonder why you are losers? Take a look at what is going on.
    Root continues to succeed in the LP.
    Nolan’s last gasp is turned into its opposite.
    paulie & lg talk up Root & Gary Johnson, GOP.
    Tom has better things to do.
    Mary political fumbler.
    Kubby=stone joke.
    Sipos, Ron Paul lackey.
    LP = LNC=joke.
    Nolan =dead.

  55. Catholic Trotskyist

    Thanks Paulie. I have my moments of insanity, but mostly I’m just eccentric. I am also getting busier in my real life. But I do probably intend to come back in a few weeks, assuming the situation improves. Yes, I will revive my original personal thread that you linked to; that’s a good idea.

  56. Rocky Eades

    This is the first time I’ve visited IPR in a while (I got tired of wading through all the troll bullshit comments – fortunately, I can just skip over the “Tea Party” bullshit (and Paulie’s youtube posts without spending too much time on them); way better than a podcast in that regard), but I do appreciate the work that IPR is doing despite the obstacles that are thrown in its way. It is unfortunate that the government is not the only obstacle that serious freedom activists have to contend with.

  57. Gene Trosper

    When IPR first decided to open comments to non-registered users, I thought it was a mistake. I was wrong. The threads here on IPR are actually quite entertaining as a result. Can’t say I visit here for serious political discussion, but mostly for the entertainment value.

  58. paulie Post author

    and Paulie’s youtube posts

    You’re missing out on some funny stuff. That’s cool though, not everyone likes them.

    When IPR first decided to open comments to non-registered users, I thought it was a mistake. I was wrong.

    Oddly enough, I pushed and pushed for months to make it happen until it did, and my first reaction was “free at last.” However, the volume of comments has not increased since we opened up comments to non-registered users, only become more trollified and spammed. And in fact the trolls have pushed many of the legitimate people away altogether.

    It’s true that a few legitimate people were having trouble with the registration process – it actually didn’t work for me the first time or two I tried it, so it was a few weeks before I was able to join the conversation – but on balance, I think it may have been a mistake to get rid of registration for comments in retrospect. I’m not actually pushing to have it reinstated (at least not yet, and I’m not saying I will), but it clearly has not been nearly as much of a good thing as I thought it would be.

  59. Gains

    The good of an open market is not easily quantified. When the market is not open, you do not know what you are losing. When it is open, you are blind to what you have Gained.

  60. paulie Post author

    That is true (and applicable to the immigration discussion on the Georgia thread). And it’s why I pushed for open comments in the first place. Looking at practical results, however, has given me at least some pause. Instead of just scrolling past the stuff that they would rather ignore, many people just left altogether or decided never to participate in the first place. And it became a self-perpetuating process: the bad pushing out the good slowly over time.

    I’m hoping that it can work in the other direction as well.

  61. Michael H. Wilson

    Re Gains @ 95. This isn’t exactly what you mention but it is close.

    When AC transit in the S.F. Bay area needed to save $4 million they reduced services. In the end they figured that to save that $4 million they ended up costing the community $40 million, or more.

    In the health care business midwives are about half the cost of OB/GYNs, but in many states it is difficult for them to practice. Again a closed market costs the public and patients.

  62. Gains

    In graphic design and in the study of visual technique there is a concept of gray space. That when the observer’s eye falls only on a bright color, the eye becomes fatigued after too long. That to keep the person looking and discovering aspects of your communication, you need to provide two things:

    1. A path for the eye to move along so that it does not stare at one place too long, but still has things to look at.

    2. A gray space for the eye to rest on, when it needs to, but leads back into the interesting bright bits.

    An interesting experiment can illustrate the affect in the visual cortex and leads to understanding how perceptive fatigue happens.

    The video gives you a scene to stare at for 15 seconds. The colors are reversed. Then the scene changes to the exact same picture, except what your eye sees is the picture in full color with all of the correct hues in reality what is in front of you is nothing but gray.

    The trick is that as those intense colors, like the orange in the video example start getting ignored by the visual cortex. They are too intense. When the colors go away, and there is no chroma stimulus, the lingering filter the mind put up, makes the opposite perceived. The orange becomes its opposite, the color blue is perceived.

    The longer one stares at the bright color, the more the mind turns it off. So often times an artist will make sure that the observer, never gets turned off by being made to stare at any one color too long, or they will loose clarity in their perception, their mind will rebel against the imbalance, and their eyes will tire.

    Grey content within the brightness of the rest is OK even in social discourse. I like bright colored serious posts too but if it were not for the trash to scan over, IPR might be a bit too intense for many.

    Now to be evil… The bright color experiment also illustrates an important concept also useful in the consideration of cognitive accesibility… The effects of extremism:

    If you hold up an bright and extreme color for too long, when the person looks away, they will have the opposite color filling their perceptions for a long time after. Extreme positions do the same thing.

    An extreme position is very bright, gets attention, provides impact, and therefore communicates strongly. If you make someone consider it too long, if you do not provide a way for them to look away for a few moments and rest their mind, they will leave feeling slightly off and viewing the world in opposite for longer than you had them considering your message.

    Interesting dichotomy eh? You must have both bright interesting things and you must also have drab things to be whole and to be long considered. Only variety produces this, and variety only comes with an open canvass and a large selection of paints.

    The dullards that post here are doing us all a service.

  63. paulie Post author

    @ 98

    Good points, which is why I break things up with things like music videos, jokes, and some light-impact trolls I have created myself (shhhh).

    But I think there is a tipping point where it gets to be too much. I think “Conservative Tea Party Patriot” illustrates this; while I “get” the humor, from the comments we have received it is clear that some of our readers don’t.

    A liitle, e.g., Milnes and Lake is good as a side dish or flavoring to the discussion, but when it becomes the main course, too many people go elsewhere, and the weeds grow taller than the crops and start taking up all the sunshine.

  64. paulie Post author

    It’s back up,

    I said….

    New TEA Party: Terrorized Enough Already?
    Posted on November 14, 2010 by paulie

    A lot of people may have forgotten but the TEA parties (before becoming cheer squads for the usual conservative mixing of church and state and the military/industrial/domestic espionage complex) stood for Taxed Enough Already. We need a new TEA party: Terrorized Enough Already. Enough already with the terrorizing us with terror of terrible terrorists. Enough already with terrorizing us with the terroristic TSA. and can be the start of a new TEA party which will say “enough already” to the terrorizing, terror-obsessed Homeland Security State, much as the TEA parties were meant to say Enough Already to overtaxation. Can we get the Terrorized Enough meme out there, and if we do, can we keep it from, being co-opted by big government “butter vs. guns” false choices? (Yes to both, and no to either one being provided by the government, btw, kthx).

    See the comments….

  65. Gains

    P @101:

    Interesting challenge sir.

    My practiced skills are more in graphic design than illustration, but I’ll give it a try. Give me a few days and kick me every once in a while… artistic endeavors often lead to procrastination for me…

  66. Gains

    P @101:

    Well, I got a little free time and sat down with scratch paper and pen and began to doodle over the problem:

    Terrorized Enough Already

    I went through a couple of ideas. Felt out some of the stereotypical and iconic images of terrorism. Found a little pattern and filled it in. At one point I had a rough of a series of jots in a circle:

    School Bully
    Street Tough
    Suicide Bomber
    Mushroom Cloud
    SWAT “Insertion”
    A School Principle

    But I looked at it and it felt wrong. People respond with fascination to the ugly truth of the world like a train wreck, then they turn off like many victims of abuse and deny the truth.

    Then the muse whispered inspiration. I think what would really illustrate that page is a call to action for those who no longer wish to be afraid:

    The National Archives hold no restriction on use.

  67. Gains

    Don’t have a safe host to post images for here and I’m not setting up a phtobucket or such thing 🙂 Sending first strawman to you via email. Tell me what elements you like and what you dont like.

  68. Gains

    A little higher resolution would be nice. This is a strawman to get reactions to the elements. Please do not be afraid to be brutal.

  69. Matt Cholko

    If that is supposed to be used as a logo, it is too complex. The stuff in that picture would be indistinguishable in one-color print.

    The general concept I like.

  70. Gains

    When I right click and look at it, its sharper. Its blown up here.

    MHW @105:
    There is a wisdom in that movement that could use a little reawakening.

    MC @119:
    I know exactly what you mean by it not being a good logo, but the challenge was to use it. So I am sorta thinking of the image not being the logo part; just the TEA theme in a circle. The interior can change even to become a dot or go black for something more icon sized.

    The element I like in this interior is the double parabola in negative space. It creates a feeling of being pulled in. Archetypical symbols that may be invoked are an hour glass and infinity. There is a global spherical feel to it that I accentuated by warping the image a little.

  71. paulie Post author

    I like your concept.

    I think there’s another picture floating around from the same series, of flowers actually being placed in the gun barrel.

    I don’t particularly want a “psychedelic”/60s font. I know the pic is from that era, but I want to relate it to the modern day more. And I would put the letters on the picture itsel, rather than around it, so as to make it larger and more visible.

  72. Gains

    p @125:

    Got ya on the font. I like the idea of anachronism too. Bridging the eras may be an interesting element to try to leverage.

    We need to flesh out what you want if we can. The photo is difficult to work into a “logo” because logos are usually iconic in design rather than illustrative. Can you describe your desired usage a little more?

  73. paulie Post author

    Basically the picture of the flowers being put into a gun barrel, and the words “The new TEA party: Terrorized Enough Already” on the picture itself…somewhere where they stand out, say in the sky portion or something. Does that make sense?

    Here’s another idea, blend something from the 21st century “war on terror” into the picture, if that’s possible. I’m not even sure how to describe that.

  74. Gains

    I think I understand. Gimme a few.

    The reason I ask for application is that it helps me understand the format you want. A logo is different than a FB image which is different from an illustration for an article, which is different from a slideshow page etc.

    Finding royalty free modern images is a challenge sometimes 🙂

  75. Gains

    Got yer email. Sending a couple of different sizes: 360px, 240px, 160px and 64px. Tell me what you think.

    I found another daisy in the rifle barrel photo, but I cant find licensing for it.

  76. Gains

    Tell me a little bit about how you would like to use the graphic. In the mean time I will try something.

  77. paulie Post author


    I like the superimposed graphic

    I want to stick with the full slogan

    say “The New TEA Party” above, around where the sky is


    “Terrorized Enough Already” below, in the grass area…

  78. paulie Post author

    Looks pretty good to me. What do other people think?

    BTW you might try posting that on the original thread at HoT and see what VanDyke thinks. He does graphics himself…

  79. Gains

    Layout is only half the work. Balancing and polishing still need to be done.

    It feels a little busy to me. To many words for the short attention span. I do like the way that you cannot concentrate on the ghosted image or the words at the same time. Curiousity pulls you into the image and really makes you look. Then when you unfocus from it, the words strike you again.

    I’ll polish it a little later tonight. I am meeting someone for dinner.

  80. Gene Trosper

    @94 I find it difficult to have substantive discussions when there is so much “noise” happening in the threads. until such time, I’ll just enjoy the entertainment some of the posters provide.

  81. Gene Trosper

    @138. I quite enjoy the graphic, but I also like a minimalized version — something stark and easily copied onto flyers, signs, and whatnot.

  82. paulie Post author

    “Let a thousand flowers bloom.”

    I hope the meme spreads and other people come up with their own variations.

  83. Gains

    Release Candidate in the mail.

    I cleaned up the curves on the daisy.

    I felt that the image lost too much detail, so I brought out its intensity some. I am not sure if it works, the smaller text starts to lose the stark definition that I like in it. A shadow helps a little bit but I am wondering what others think. Is it readable with the background image that strong or should I take it down some or take it back to the level in the one before?

    GT @141:

    Thank you! I am holding no license myself and it sounds like Paulie is all about the Creative Commons with it as well.

    The image and the font also have no restrictions on use and everything else is original. If you want it in some other format, please don’t hesitate to ask. I only warn that my available time ebbs and flows so there may be a delay.

  84. Joe Keg

    I agree with George Phillies.

    It looks kind of like a gas pump handle or something.

    Should be more easily recognizable as a gun barrel.

  85. Gains

    GP & JK:
    Thank you for the input. I have looked it over with your suggestion in mind. If you don’t mind, I’d like to share my thoughts about the design.

    There are several aspects to communication design that I am weighing to find a good balance. Some of them are a little more esoteric. There is one principle that is acting strongly with me on the piece as it is now. The requirements Paulie give need to managing eye travel over giving a single clear icon.

    Sometimes what you are presenting is a very simple idea and message. Sometimes what you are presenting requires getting the viewer to do a little consideration; to take it all in and lead them to a realization. It is tricky stuff.

    One very successful technique for more complicated communication is to lead the eye around to several points in the presentation. Each touch place communicates a piece and the whole together delivers a larger message (If you are successful). The design needs to create a pathway leading from one element to another.

    Here is a quick surface level explanation:

    Paulies requirements were fleshed out as these:
    Include “The New Tea Party”
    Include “Terrorized Enough Already”
    Use the flower power image.
    Show a flower in a rifle barrel.
    Leverage the flower power theme in a contemporary way that provides an iconic logo.

    Behind those requirements was also the desire to express a call to action of anti-violence or anti-terrorism as it were.
    I also wanted to inspire confidence even “vitality” to complement the perception of success in using passive resistance.

    The requirements put a LOT of elements on the piece. Some of them need special consideration. For instance the idea of “new” is important, as is the distinction of “Terrorized” in place of “Taxed”.

    On the other side I needed something iconic that tied the flower power image into the text and could be reused. The flower in the rifle barrel requirement is a powerful choice and kudos to Paulie. The symbolism of a flower and a rod is pretty well tried and true for delivering both a virile and receptive message that has an archetypal culmination in the birth of something new.

    The passive nature of resistance, key to the gestalt, puts the daisy on top and more important than the gun, the yang in the formula is highlighted. The daisy is bright, ring shaped and easily identified. The gun, the yin extends from below. Violence and aggression exists outside of the picture, and is not accentuated.

    When the viewer first lays eyes on the image, my hope is that it lands on the daisy first. The starkness will make them want to move their eye quickly to a restful place which in the next version is the words “The New”. On those words the eye will likely dwell a bit, it may even push into the ghosted image and find a lot of interesting “hidden details in there”.

    Eventually the viewers eye should come out of rest time and will start to move up the brightness ramp to the words “TEA PARTY”, and into the bright stark, “Terrorized enough already”. A visual and psychological (ironic) slam and the eye and the mind goes looking for rest.

    The closest rest spot is the gun barrel. Before this point, the viewer probably did not even consider the element except as the upright element engaging the flower. Now with the eye resting on it, the shape becomes interesting, a puzzle, odd in that it comes from out of the picture. The mind not finding rest falls into the flower power image, and finds no rest, but the answer to what that shape is becomes obvious. The mind has no choice but to link the concepts together. With any luck some viewers get an epiphany that illustrates the nature of coersion.

    The eyes starts moving again, up the barrel to the diasy leaves that are doing a little “ta da” gesture and onward back to the daisy.

    Complimenting the Yin and Yang, in the overall design is the empty circle “Wuji” communicating limitlessness and also the trigram:
    – –
    – –
    – –
    …from the I Ching representing “receptiveness”… and is a nod to a libertarian master communicator… Ewige Blumenkraft.

    The vagueness of the gun is part of the design. It is meant to also especially catch the emotionally curious and sensitive… The artists and the champions as it were… as they find discovery, they bond with the concept at a level that iconic rational communication fails in.

    I have no idea if it succeeds. Please, more feedback is welcome; as is a discussion on theories in communication design if anyone finds it interesting.

  86. George Phillies

    Perhaps delete the gas tube to the left of the barrel? They are not that common on firearms.

    Make the top of the barrel an ellipse so we see it is round and hollow?

    I am trying to explain what is wrong with my viewing and I am not graphically inclined.

  87. Robert Capozzi

    Not sure what yer going for exactly, but I don’t think the background photo works. Perhaps a TSA patdown or something. If that’s a gun, I’m not seeing it…looks more like a sprinkler.

    I’d consider a rework on the typography, too. Stacking letters is generally not done these days, as readability is challenged. The kerning for THE NEW seems off to me. The word spacing bet. enough and already also looks off.

  88. Gains

    GP @149:

    What you feel and what you observe is of primary importance to me in the creative process!

    You make some very insightful observations. The mystery aspect of that eye resting object is important to me. If it is too much of a mystery, it wont communicate. I am going to try your advice with simplifying the barrel end to better connect with peoples expectations but will keep the gas tube, there is a racetrack like visual pathway that is important to me there if I can keep it.

    RC @152:

    Sprinkler… not a bad memory to hook into for some of the message but I get your point along with GP and really appreciate it!

    Your kerning and font size observations were great. I was a forehead slapper for me, I am going to correct the size of the font on all of the elements but I am going to leave the orientation of the one element vertical.

    Our audience if challenged rather than intrigued by the orientation, is probably going to skip over “Terrorized” too. For these people it will likely be the image that intrigues them the most so, text be damned lets get em picking flowers and offering them to authority figures 🙂

    As for using TSA, there was a paradigm shift. The axiomatic reversal of fear to hope. It is the core of the left-libertarian flavor that the stated context lives in. Start at my post @104 which is now a ways and a few days back to see that evolution.

    I will also, based on your observations bring the intensity of the background picture up just a little more. If the details in the image did not clue you into the nature of the rifle barrel it may be because the detail in the photo is hidden. I am thinking that maybe that the military themed force is not illustrated enough with details washed out in black.

    Thank you and everyone also for your awesome observations!

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