LP to Free Delegates: Get Lost!

The Libertarian Party today released its full list of convention packages.

Fellow Libertarian Party Member,

You Are Cordially Invited to Attend

40th Anniversary Libertarian National Convention

Homecoming and Reunion for Libertarians     

May 2-6      Red Rock Resort     Las Vegas, NV

“Why is This Year’s 40th Anniversary Libertarian National Convention Unlike Any Other in LP History?”

1. Key LP Movers and Shakers of the Last 40 Years Are Coming to this Gala Event

2. These Fascinating Libertarians are already Confirmed  Speakers, Panelists, and Presenters:

Tonie Nathan, 1972 Libertarian Vice-Presidential Candidate AND the first woman to ever receive an Electoral Vote

Ed Clark, 1980 Libertarian Presidential Candidate. Highest Libertarian Presidential Vote Total Ever: 921,128 votes.

David Bergland, 1984 Libertarian Presidential Candidate, author Libertarianism in One Lesson

Dr. Nancy Lord, 1992 Libertarian Vice-Presidential Candidate

Carla Howell, 2000 Massachusetts Libertarian U.S. Senate Candidate Against Teddy Kennedy. 308,860 votes.

Robert Poole, co-founder REASON.

Manny Klausner, co-founder REASON.

Alicia Garcia Clark, National Libertarian Leader and Chair

Michael Cloud, Libertarian Campaign Guru, author Secrets of Libertarian Persuasion.

Sharon Harris, President, Advocates for Self-Government.

Judge James Gray, Libertarian, CA

Judge John Buttrick, Libertarian, AZ

Norma Jean Almodovar, LP Lt. Governor Candidate CA, author, From Cop to Call Girl, featured on ’60 Minutes.’

Elected Libertarians Panel, with names to be announced.

PLUS Friends of Libertarian Heroes Who Have Passed Away Will Share Stories About: David F. Nolan, founder, Libertarian Party. Dr. John Hospers, first Libertarian Presidential Candidate. Harry Browne, Unforgettable 2-Time Libertarian Presidential Candidate. Dr. Murray Rothbard, Austrian Economist. Marshall Fritz, founder, Advocates for Self-Government.

PLUS Several Surprise Libertarian Luminaries.

3. This May be Your First, Last, or Only Chance to Meet These Fascinating Libertarians who created and shaped and developed the Libertarian Party during our first 40 years.

4. Every Living Libertarian Party Member is Invited

5. Libertarian Party Members are coming from all 50 states

PLUS, you’ll get meet and talk with the 2012 Libertarian Presidential Candidates, and, if you choose to be a delegate, you will help select our 2012 Libertarian Presidential Nominee.

You’ll Get to Meet and Talk with Libertarian Party Leaders of the last 40 Years, and, if you’re a delegate, help choose our new LP leaders.

PLUS, candidate trainings, activists training, state party leader training.

PLUS, there will be bunches of receptions and parties. Some quiet and friendly. Others noisy and fun. There will be widespread, unregulated fun and spontaneous laughter.

All for You.

This Convention is a Celebration of You. Of Your Libertarian Principles and Memories and Dreams. Of the Past, Present, and Future of Your Liberty — and Ours.

You’ll remember this 40th Anniversary Libertarian National Convention for the rest of your life.

***

You Are Cordially Invited to Attend

The 40th Anniversary Libertarian National Convention

 Homecoming and Reunion for Libertarians

Liberty Will Win

Because of who you are and what you have done to support liberty and the Libertarian Party, we are giving you a choice of 4 different Convention Packages: Gold, Silver, Bronze, or TANSTAAFL  each with a rock bottom price.

Look over all 4 choices. Which do you want? Which fits your situation and budget?

————————————————————-

Gold Package

  •       Presidential Banquet & Reception
  •       Saturday Lunch & Speaker
  •       Saturday Wake-up Speaker
  •       Gold VIP Post-Debate Presidential Candidate Reception Friday
  •       Friday Lunch & Speaker
  •       Friday Wake-up Speaker
  •       David F. Nolan Reception Wednesday
  •       All  Breakout Speakers

PLUS:

These Special Bonuses for Gold Package Buyers

  •       Express, First Class Gold Convention Check-In
  •       Premium Front Rows Seating at the Presidential Debate
  •       Express, First Class Entrance to the Presidential Banquet
  •       Reserved Tables at the Presidential Banquet � & more spacious seating
  •       Wine at Banquet
  •       One or two Libertarian VIP’s Hosting each Banquet table
  •       AND Two Surprise Gifts � one will be shipped to you this week

Base Gold Package Value: $595

Special Bonuses Value: $195

Total Value: $790

Your Price: $445 ($345 Savings / 44% Discount)

Because of Your Support for the Libertarian Party,

Because this is the 40th Anniversary of the Libertarian Party,

We are offering You this $790 Value for Only $445 � a 44% Savings – if You are one of the first 100 Buyers of this offer

$445 Gold Package — Buy Now

————————————————————-

Silver Package

  •       Presidential Banquet & Reception
  •       Saturday Lunch & Speaker
  •       Saturday Wake-up Speaker
  •       Friday Lunch  & Speaker
  •       Friday Wake-up Speaker
  •       David F. Nolan Reception Wednesday
  •       All  Breakout Speakers

Silver Package Price at Door: $495

Your Price: Only $395 ($100 Savings / 24% Discount)

Discount Price for the first 75 Silver Package Buyers

$395 Silver Package — Buy Now

————————————————————-

Bronze Package

  •       Presidential Banquet & Reception
  •       David F. Nolan Reception Wednesday
  •       All Breakout Sessions (NO Wake-up or Lunch Speakers)

Bronze Package Price at Door: $395

Your Price: Only $295 ($100 Savings / 25% Discount)

Discount Price for the first 75 Bronze Package Buyers

$295 Bronze Package — Buy Now

————————————————————-

TANSTAAFL Package

TANSTAAFL is the minimum required payment for Delegates and Alternates to enter the Convention to participate in Libertarian Party business, and in Libertarian Delegate meetings and activities.

“TANSTAAFL” is longtime libertarian acronym, which means:

“There Ain’t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch”

Some Libertarian Delegates want to attend only business sessions. They should NOT be required to buy more expensive Convention Packages just to be a Delegate at the Libertarian National Convention.

TANSTAAFL Package allows these to pay only the cost of what they choose.

Each attendee must pay his share of the basic costs of putting on this Libertarian National Convention. The costs of the meeting rooms, the tables and chairs, audio-visual systems, LP support staff, Parliamentarian, printing and shipping materials, and so forth for several days of Libertarian Party National business.=

These costs are included in the Gold, Silver, Bronze, and TANSTAAFL Convention Packages.

Paying Delegates and Attendees will NOT be forced to pay the Convention costs of ‘Free Riders.’

TanstaafC: “There Ain’t No Such Thing As A Free Convention”

$94 TANSTAAFL package — Buy Now

————————————————————-

Don’t Miss Out. Act Now.

You Can Buy Your Gold, Silver, Bronze, or TANSTAAFL Package with Credit Card or Debit Card.

Just Click and Pick.

 

148 thoughts on “LP to Free Delegates: Get Lost!

  1. matt cholko

    I actually agree with the idea of ANSTAAFC…… Delegates must transport themselves to the convention site, take the time to attend the business session, etc. That s**t ain’t free!

    I AM going to the convention. But honestly, it is going to end up costing me $1500+ to fly there, stay at the convention hotel, and buy a decent convention package. Add $400 if I rent a car so I can enjoy the rest of Vegas. For that kind of money I would much rather sit on the beach for a week and get a nice tan.

  2. matt cholko

    I think I missed making my point in my previous post.

    The idea that LP members must pay $100 to have their opinions heard on party business is absolutely ridiculous. We’re PARTY MEMBERS! Isn’t that enough?

  3. Thane Eichenauer

    MC@3
    Nobody is forcing anybody to attend the convention. If you think the convention is important you are required to pay $94 to participate. Why should party members who choose not to attend have their contributions impounded to subsidize the goings on in Las Vegas?
    If you want a no-cost alternative there is always the Boston Tea Party.
    http://bostontea.us/2012Presidentialconvention
    I have a friend who plans to attend the LP convention. I do not plan to attend. His $94 fee will cover the overhead of the convention. He will obtain greater influence in the LP as a result. I fail to be outraged that he must pay a fee to participate.

  4. Aaron Starr

    I find myself applauding Convention Oversight Committee Chair Ruth Bennett’s decision to require delegates to pay for their own costs and not expect others to pay for them.

    Bennett is 100% correct – TANSTAAFC.

    While I’m not particularly excited with Bennett’s choice of speaker lineup, at least Chairman Mark Hinkle knew to appoint a COC Chair that understands this basic libertarian ideal.

  5. Money, money, money... MOOOONEEEYY!!!

    People need to realize, if you want to be involved in the political process… You need to wealthy or have disposal income to make it happen. The general population which is the majority, just want to pay bills.

  6. George Phillies

    You got it right, Marc.

    The position of the convention committee is about the same as the position that Congressmen should pay the cost of having a Capitol Building, dome and painting the the Apotheosis of iirc Benjamin Franklin and all.

    No. The delegates are there to do the business of the members and the state affiliates, and what we have here — as also seen in the list of convention speakers, is the Plootocratic wing of the party try to make it difficult for other wings to participate.

    Ruth Bennett is the genius who nominated M Carling for Judicial Committee, two years ago.

    Her co-chair published, immediately prior to the LNC elections, a long series of lies about my state party.

  7. Hardy

    It seems the issue some people have every convention is any cost whatsoever. Some of us have to travel much farther than others so I’ll already be paying extra to attend because I driving from NH.

    It seems the only way to make the cost of the business convention nearly free for everyone involved is hold online conventions.

    Since we aren’t having an online convention, convention delegates need to pay for the convention space. Members buying packages already help to subsidize the convention for the business only delegates. You have 2 months to save up or raise the $94 and your other costs of getting there.

  8. Chaz

    Was planning on bringing 3 others with me. Looks like it will be only two as an extra ~$400 means one will have to stay home(the cost of a round trip plane ticket). Either that or I won’t be staying at Red Rocks and using other discounts I have to stay cheaper elsewhere and MAYBE bringing the one extra.

  9. Marc Montoni

    Ignorance is one thing, willful ignorance is another entirely.

    Those of you who think dues should not be used to pay for the annual membership meeting refuse to acknowledge several facts:

    1) The Democrats and Republicans do not require a floor fee. I’ve explained why on several occasions before, but that’s fallen on entirely deaf ears.

    2) The Ds and Rs don’t charge floor fees because they get corporate convention committee sponsorships — which are entirely legal. You guys, when you tiptoe towards acknowledging that FACT, you often claim we can’t take advantage of that source of funds because the Party “doesn’t have any rent-seeking businesses” that would be willing to support our efforts in that way — which flies directly in the face of the additional FACT that no LP convention committee has ever TRIED to raise external cash. They don’t have to be “rent-seeking” — there are corporate leaders who just agree with us and would like to help. It really is as simple as that. But we’ll never find them unless we approach them and ask. The LP database already has a list of people who are business executives; that would be the place to start.

    3) You’ve all got it backwards on the subsidization business. Since those of us who do attend the convention have to lay out $500 to $1500 to get to it, it is convention attendees — free or not — who are subsidizing $25 members who do *not* attend.

    4) When Ruth first sent out the special “$395 Gold package for Lifers” message a couple of weeks ago, I was ready to lay out my credit card, even though the price was jacked up a hundred dollars over the price for the Gold package in 2010. I asked Ruth about the other packages right after I received that message, because I was helping prepare for the Virginia convention and I wanted to have a sheet at the registration table to hand out to potential delegates. Anyone who has seen me working an LP convention table has witnessed me “suggestive selling” things like books, monthly pledges, and national convention packages. But when I received her reply, my wallet closed, the LP lost $400, and I’m not suggestive selling anything. I might still attend, but I damn sure won’t be paying for a premium package.

    5) By the way, the Libertarian Party of Virginia charges no floor fee for the Business Session of its convention, and as long as the Virginia LP desires my help for putting on that state convention, there will be no floor fee on my watch. For those of you who wish to think me a freeloader, you’re an idiot: 1) there are only a couple of other individuals who spent more labor putting the convention on than I did; and 2) I purchased a premium convention package early. We paid for the Business Session in two ways: 1) We reserve $4 of every $25 state membership to go towards paying for the meeting room; and 2) the buyers of premium packages paid for enough in meals that the meeting space was free.

    6) If the complaint is that dues of $25 is insufficient to cover convention costs, two responses. 1) Bullshit. With 13,000 members, a $1 set-aside per member per year would mean $26,000 in a “meeting room rental kitty”. I’ve organized meetings before, and I know $23,000 for four or even five days of meeting-hall rental for 500 people would leave many thousands of dollars sitting in the kitty afterwards. The LNC’s inability to properly budget for mandatory expenses is a reflection on the competence of the LNC, rather than anyone else. 2) Beyond proper budgeting, raise dues, as I’ve suggested in the past. I would prefer dues at realistic levels — like $1,000 of either time or money. I reject the idea that anyone should be allowed to pay the equivalent of dinner for three at McDonalds in order to have a say in the running of the LP. You should have to collect a thousand signatures, or work an LP information table for a week, or donate at least $1000 in cash, in order to be allowed a seat at the table. $25 does NOT make one a stakeholder. $1,000 of labor or money, on the other hand, does.

  10. LibertarianGirl

    Ruth Bennett is a fair woman and her appointing M to judicial proves it. We all know she is on a different “philisophical” side but is willing to reach across differences to pick people she thinks will do the work fairly not what she may want personally. I respect Ruth Bennett.

    I dont like floor fees either , but we bleed money every convention , maybe we can bleed less.

    anyone to poor to afford a room , if you dont mind cats , Ill have 2 extra bedrooms at my house and anyone is welcome. I also plan on getting a room for those who might not be able to afford a room but we’ll see how that goes…

  11. Darryl W. Perry

    @Marc – setting aside $1 from each dues-paying member would make sense!

    Another option would be to create “suggested donations” instead of “mandatory fees” or delegate attendance (of business sessions only). I’m sure that some LP members would donate more than $94 – while those who are already pinching pennies would give what they could afford (or thought the convention was worth to them).

    Something else I noticed was lacking from the convention website is vendor information.

  12. LibertarianGirl

    also RedRock is at the western end of a street called Charleston…Charleston is prob 1 of the most central and well known major streets in Vegas , it runs directly between Downtown and the strip , so pretty much any other cheaper hotel – motel will be near there. The bus comes every 20 min. on Charleston so if you dont stay at redrock getting to the convention floor should not be that difficult

  13. Dr. Tom Stevens

    Delegates selected by State Affiliates should have the right to participate in Business Sessions of the LP National Convention for free. No financial qualification beyond getting yourself to the convention should be imposed.

    The Convention Committee should seek out sponsors and offer attractive convention packages attendees would want to pay for.

  14. Kevin Knedler

    This is an interesting thread. So, if the LNC decides to make it free for the business session, what about “fairness”. Why would anyone want to pay a darn dime at all? Why should somebody with a high income, even want to pay when others are getting in free? 25% of the attendees in St. Louis didn’t pay a dime. 25% ! And that was handled behind the scenes. If we go with Freebie program this time, I plan to let all of OHIO delegation know this. If nobody wants to pay a dime, that is their decision. 25% will just be a stepping stone to the large number of people that would not pay. And forget about the convention breaking even. Something called personal responsibility. It should be interesting. Meanwhile, should I advise the 4th largest affiliate to not register at all until this is resolved?

  15. Shawn Levasseur

    First let me say that the TANSTAAFL package was a good move. A no-frills package helps.

    But asking that the con be “free” is a step too far. Complaining that national must subsidze the cost of it all is not the right answer.

    More apropos would be to fundraise locally specifically to send delegates. Create leadership PACs for such purposes. Candidates for party office or presidential nominations could cover costs for supportive delegates. Think outside the Top-Down model. Think locally.

    I’m dismayed at so many Libertarians emulating the socialist models of dealing with the situations (make someone else pay). Instead of making an entrepreneurial approach to it.

    Heck, when Sam Adams was elected to the Continental Congress, friends and supporters helped him out in order to attend, including getting him a new set of clothing for the occasion, voluntarily.

    Hopefully, we can grow the party so that there’s more competition for delegate seats in the future. Making such entrepreneurial efforts more practical, and potentially the ability to attend being part of the considerations in selecting delegates.

  16. Nicholas Sarwark

    There has not, to my knowledge, been a fee charged for delegates to attend the business sessions and vote at a national convention in the entire 40 years that the Party has existed.

    The establishment of such a fee is not authorized by the Bylaws. The Bylaws do state what is required to be a delegate, and a fee is not one of the requirements. I don’t think that a subcommittee of the LNC can just implement an extra requirement for a properly credentialed delegate from a state affiliate to attend business sessions and vote.

    Even if there is a tortured reading of Robert’s Rules that would allow a floor fee, it’s still a bad idea to break with 40 years of established practice without putting that decision to the body of delegates at a convention.

    I have written my LNC representative to ask that the LNC reverse the action of the convention committee. If anyone else cares to do the same, their contact information is here: http://www.lp.org/leadership

  17. Nicholas Sarwark

    @17: I’ve attended all of the national conventions since 2000. All of those conventions were held without a floor fee for delegates who wanted to attend the business session only. I purchased a paid package with extras for all of those conventions. The fact that I could have attended business sessions for free or that other people were doing so didn’t influence my decision to purchase a convention package.

    I’m just one person, but I know of many others who feel the same.

  18. ATBAFT

    Every stockholder in a corporation gets a ballot to elect directors. Many organizations send out ballots to all their members to vote for officers and directors. All 13,000 LP members could vote the same way and have a “say” without having to attend the national convention. Those seeking office would have to use different means to contact the members but we could be assured that those winning had to have broad appeal (as opposed to convincing 50% of the tiny percentage attending the national convention.)
    Have the convention for social and educational reasons, and to announce the results of the mail balloting.

  19. Thomas L. Knapp

    The convention is a business meeting which is required by the bylaws. It’s the LNC’s responsibility to budget for it, not the attendees’ responsibility to make good on the LNC’s financial irresponsibility.

    The bylaws clearly list the qualifications to participate in the business meeting.

    Paying an extra fee to subsidize the preference of others for a posh venue w/dancing girls, strolling musicians and magic acts in addition to the business meeting expenses is not one of those requirements.

  20. Alvin

    While my respect for Mr Montoni is so great that I normally am easily persuaded by his arguments. this time, while compelling, I have to remain on the side of pay to play. Yes we could have done the set aside, we could have sought the corporate donation, but we didn’t. So rather than lose money or have folks under value the convention, I support the minimum charge.

    I’m willing to vote for you Marc if you run for National on a platform of implementing your vision (no one knows better than I your gift for convention organizing) but meanwhile, pay to play. Watch us on Cspan if you can’t or won’t pay otherwise, send your input via your delegate.

  21. Michael H. Wilson

    I can’t find fault with Ruth Bennett over this and won’t, but I certainly fault the LNC for the failure to plan properly. The committee has found time to involve itself in the problems with the Oregon State party and to go after other members, but little time for the convention, no time for updating information or making much of an effort beyond talk to grow the party.

    Marc Montoni has some good points and I have to give credit to Kevin Kendler for his comments elsewhere about planning ahead and coming on here to comment.

    Obviously some people on the LNC need to be replaced by their regional membership. Maybe we need a term limits proposal for the bylaws. Change is good.

  22. MarcMontoni Post author

    @21 ATBAFT, interestingly those same corporations that allow universal suffrage to shareholders via proxy votes by mail or web also put on stockholder meetings that all shareholders are welcome to attend.

    Oh, and — at no additional cost.

  23. Chuck Moulton

    Kevin Knedler wrote (@17):

    This is an interesting thread. So, if the LNC decides to make it free for the business session, what about “fairness”. Why would anyone want to pay a darn dime at all?

    Excellent question! The Libertarian Party has not charged a floor fee for 40 years. Let’s look at the data.

    Thankfully, one Kevin Knedler provides us with some statistics.

    Kevin Knedler wrote (@17):

    25% of the attendees in St. Louis didn’t pay a dime. 25%!

    So Kevin Knedler, in response to your question “if the LNC decides to make it free for the business session […] [w]hy would anyone want to pay a darn dime at all?” we see here from Kevin Knedler that in the past when no floor fee was charged 75% of the delegates paid anyway.

    Kevin Knedler wrote (@17):

    25% will just be a stepping stone to the large number of people that would not pay.

    No. The LP has existed for 40 years. Over that 40 year period the number of people who did not buy a package has not been trending upward. When they were debating about a floor fee for St. Louis, I was told that about 25% didn’t buy a package in Atlanta, Portland, and Denver.

    You are assuming an upward trend line when no evidence for such a trend exists.

  24. MarcMontoni Post author

    So, if the LNC decides to make it free for the business session,

    It was already free for the business session. It has been free since the LP’s inception.

    The LNC has, however, by its appointment of the convention committee chair and allowing the committee’s decisions to stand even if they contradict the bylaws, decided to place a fee on the Business Session that has never been there in the past.

    what about ?fairness?. Why would anyone want to pay a darn dime at all?

    What a specious argument. The obvious answer is to look at all of the previous conventions back to 1972, where the large majority of convention attendees did in fact either donate something, or bought packages. The simple answer to your question — and you already know it’s the case — is that “people have, for four decades, voluntarily paid many dimes.”

    Why should somebody with a high income, even want to pay when others are getting in free?

    Are you even listening? My family income probably ranks among the 1% in the LP. I was perfectly willing to shell out $395 for a Gold package at this convention — until I learned of the shenanigans about floor fees going on once again. If the floor fee is dropped, I’ll buy either the Gold package (even at the current $445 price — despite the fact that I think it’s… well, not a good deal); or a silver package (ditto, it’s way overpriced).

    25% of the attendees in St. Louis didn?t pay a dime. 25% !

    I have my doubts about the accuracy of this number; I believe those who want a floor fee are inflating it. I think the real number is probably more in line with past conventions, where 10 to 15 per cent of those in attendance were ‘free’ delegates. Many of those individuals were like I was twenty years ago — people who have invested literally thousands of hours in the LP, but who were cash-poor. My first convention in 1985 (Phoenix) I was so broke I had to carpool from Virginia — couldn’t afford airfare.

    Former LP national director Shane Cory said in 2010 that they looked at the 2008 convention reporting and saw that “free” delegates were not a significant cost factor.

    And that was handled behind the scenes. If we go with Freebie program this time, I plan to let all of OHIO delegation know this. If nobody wants to pay a dime, that is their decision. 25% will just be a stepping stone to the large number of people that would not pay. And forget about the convention breaking even. Something called personal responsibility. It should be interesting. Meanwhile, should I advise the 4th largest affiliate to not register at all until this is resolved?

    You do what you will. I’m not out there ‘selling’ the convention as I have done in the past; but I’m also not discouraging anyone in my state party from buying a package. In short, I am just allowing the committee to sell its own packages — without my help. It’s no longer my job — it’s the job of those of you who think floor fees = greater attendance.

  25. MarcMontoni Post author

    @17 Levasseur said:

    Heck, when Sam Adams was elected to the Continental Congress, friends and supporters helped him out in order to attend, including getting him a new set of clothing for the occasion, voluntarily.

    And how much was he charged, by congress, to get on the *floor* of congress, again?

  26. Mike Kane

    $500 plane ticket
    $400 hotel
    $200 other expenses
    $200 rental car
    $600 lost revenue from missed work
    $395 – silver package

    I’m at around $2,300, not including the money I’d likely gamble away in Vegas.

    That’s why I’ll be sitting this one out.

  27. Jill Pyeatt

    Although a few people who comment on IPR insist the economy is getting better and/or prices have not increased, my experience in CA tells me that many families are having trouble paying even basic bills like utilities and insurance. This is true even if both partners are working which, frankly isn’t always the case. I appreciate the $94 option, but this isn’t a good year to start charging a floor fee for delegates. It will undoubtedly discourage some people from coming.

  28. Jill Pyeatt

    What options for food will be available? Will there be reasonably priced restaurants nearby?

  29. MikeK

    $500 plane ticket
    $400 hotel
    $300 rental car
    $200 other expenses
    $600 lost revenue from lost work
    $395 for silver package

    I’m already over 2,000 and not even mentioned the money I’d gamble in vegas.

    I’ll sit this one out

  30. Scott Lieberman

    “Jill Pyeatt // Feb 29, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    What options for food will be available? Will there be reasonably priced restaurants nearby?”

    ******************************************

    Ms. Pyeatt:

    There are at least a half-dozen restaurants on “fast food row” at the Red Rock Resort. This includes a Fatburger that is open 24/7.

    http://www.redrocklasvegas.com/dining/

    Plus – there are about 4 medium priced restaurants in the shopping center across the street from the hotel.

    Scott Lieberman

  31. Robert Capozzi

    It’s true that shareholders don’t pay for annual meetings or proxy mailings. The LP isn’t a public, profit-making entity, however.

    I don’t like the feel of a floor fee, either, but the horse may be out of the barn….

  32. ralph

    Aren’t there some legal issues as well?

    I seem to recall a discussion years back that a business session fee raised e.g. Federal Election legal problems.

  33. Kevin Knedler

    Food options at the Red Rock.
    Yes the restaurants are somewhat expensive.
    But my favorite Red Rock food experience is the hamburger joint called “lbs (pounds)” and the food court has a lot of low-cost food stands.
    Plus, some places across the street in a shopping complex.

  34. Brian Holtz

    a few people who comment on IPR insist the economy is getting better and/or prices have not increased

    A search on the phrases “getting better” and “have not increased” show no hits like this. What was actually said was stuff like:

    “I’ve said nothing here about the health of the economy. I’ve just said that the CPI accurately measures consumer prices, and that this measurement is confirmed both by the Billion Prices Project and by market interest rates.”

    As for the health of the economy, some data:

  35. Thomas L. Knapp

    LG,

    I do appreciate the invitation, and would love to take you up on it … but not likely to happen. That’s a looooooong trip, I wouldn’t be a delegate, and as of yet my inbox does not overflow with “we will pay you big $$$ to go to Las Vegas and write about what happened to the American dream” emails 😉

    For the record, we have this fucking fight every two years, and every two years the floor fee gets axed because in addition to being a violation of the bylaws IT IS A BAD IDEA.

    In 2010, I offered to buy a package as soon as they stopped trying to force me to do so as a precondition to being allowed to discharge the duties of a duly appointed delegate. And I bought that package as soon as they DID stop trying to force it.

    For those wanting to get the fight together this time, I suggest working up a list of past vendors and sending them emails along the lines of “I hope to see you at the LP National Convention again this year. Unfortunately, the convention operators are trying to get all my money with a delegate tax that violates their own bylaws before I have a chance to get to your table, so I guess I won’t be buying anything. But it would be nice to catch up with you and chew the fat. You should have plenty of time for that, since the people renting the table to you want to make sure that nobody has any money left to spend with you.”

    Or something like that.

  36. Jill Pyeatt

    At least we’ll be able to drive from Los Angeles to Las Vegas except that…oh, wait, I need to find a graph to know if gas is going up or not.

  37. LibertarianGirl

    lmao….that was a good one , no offense B…. btw id like to remind everyone last convention that Brian Holttz helped pay to get me there after my complaining on here, so thanks Brian .

  38. Jose C

    The headline reminds me of a famous headline in the New york Daily News in the 1970’s. New York city was broke and the mayor asked President Ford for a bailout. He said no and the headline read: Ford to City: Drop Dead!

  39. Brian Holtz

    Jill, re-read your @30. You chose to prefix it with superfluous and demonstrably misleading snark about what your fellow Libertarians have been saying around here.

    That was your choice, not mine. My conscience is clear.

  40. Eric Sundwall

    @4 “Why should party members who choose not to attend have their contributions impounded to subsidize the goings on in Las Vegas?”

    Because I would hope that my contributions to the party affect the proper business that a convention is supposed to handle?

    I bought a gold package in Portland in 2006 and only remember free Cokes and pretzels after a long elevator ride.

  41. Jill Pyeatt

    Brian, I meant the first sentence as a disclaimer, sinply meaning that I know not everyone agrees with me. I also specified that this is my experience in California. I really think you read ‘way too much into it, as I really didn’t mean to offend anyone. From now on, I’ll specify what is my opinion only, based on my experience in my specific geographic area. I also wasn’t specifically referring to you, as Dr. Phillies believes the economy is getting better.

    Wow, I re-read my post at 30, and it certainly doesn’t seem snarky. I’m clearly having a bad day.

  42. Brian Holtz

    Jill, we just had a big debate about whether the CPI understates inflation. And then you chose to claim that people are saying “prices have not increased”. You surely know that nobody said that, but you decided to type those words @30.

    I merely connected the dots. If you’re saying that you placed the dots next to each other purely by accident, then I’ll take your word for it.

    I missed the recent comment where Phillies said the economy is getting better. He made no such claim in the Root-Touts thread that I assume you’re referring to.

  43. Jill Pyeatt

    BH @ 54: Phillies has actually said for months that the economy is turning around, and there’s always discussion about it. Really, I wasn’t making a direct jab at you. If I was, I think you’d know it.

  44. Doug Craig

    As for as pay to play who gets to decide what is fair ? Maybe some people would rather have a cheaper event if they have to pay. Maybe if we did a better job getting the world out about cheaper (free) we could bring more people to the convention and make it up and fundraising or on food sales.

  45. Thomas L. Knapp

    Doug,

    I’d love to pile into a van with you again! But, probably not, this year. The logistics of getting away for a week to Vegas are enough of a pain in the ass that only dire necessity or big bucks would make it likely.

    On the “pay to play” issue, the LP’s membership has already “paid” (with their dues and contributions) for the “play” (the biennial business meeting which every LNC member knew, when elected, that he or she was responsible for making happen, as it is listed among the duties of the LNC).

    The floor fee isn’t about “There Ain’t No Such Thing as a Free Lunch” for the broke or cheap. It’s about trying to scam the broke or cheap into subsidizing a luxury vacation for the people who want to bundle said vacation into the business meeting trip.

  46. matt cholko

    We can make all kinds of arguments about who is subsidizing who, what the actual cost of the additional space/stuff needed for the “free” attendees is, and lots of other related things. However, that stuff isn’t what’s most important to me.

    As far as I’m concerned, telling LP members that they must pay to participate in a business meeting that determines the direction of the party that they pay dues to, and volunteer on behalf of, is simply unacceptable. It is a poll tax, no way around that fact.

    Here is what I would like to see – the Convention Committe should publicly disclose the expected actual costs per-person for the 100-200 people that would likely attend on business session only packages, and ask for donations to offset these costs. Certainly some of the business session only people would donate at least that amount themselves. Others would donate some smaller amount – an amount that they can afford. Those LP members who are concerned about the convention losing money could donate as well.

    I don’t fall into any of those groups. I intend to buy an upgraded package (the prices are ridiculous, but that’s another thread), and I am not particularly concerned about the convention’s profitability. However, I will publicly commit right now that I WILL DONATE THE AMOUNT THAT THE CONVENTION COMMITTEE STATES IS THE ACTUAL COST OF ONE ATTENDEE TO THE BUSINESS SESSION ONLY, up to $100, if the floor fee is removed.

  47. Aaron Starr

    Marc @ 27 writes:

    “The LNC has, however, by its appointment of the convention committee chair and allowing the committee’s decisions to stand even if they contradict the bylaws, decided to place a fee on the Business Session that has never been there in the past.”

    The LNC doesn’t appoint the chair of the COC. The LNC’s policy manual states that the COC Chair is appointed by the LNC Chair.

  48. Steven R Linnabary

    Food options at the Red Rock.
    Yes the restaurants are somewhat expensive.
    But my favorite Red Rock food experience is the hamburger joint called “lbs (pounds)” and the food court has a lot of low-cost food stands.

    Well, not exactly. Yes there is a food court, with some really crappy fast food stands. But the burrito joint burrito’s are in the $8 range, the hamburger stand cheeseburger is around $8, even the faux Chinese stand has fried rice for $8.

    BUT…if you don’t mind eating but once a day, there are several buffet restaurants, all in the $18/ meal range. And the food is excellent, even gourmet. It’s what I plan to do.

    PEACE

  49. Andy

    I was in Las Vegas a few months ago and I went and checked out Red Rocks. It’s a nice place. It’s part of the Station Casino chain which caters primarily to the locals market. Red Rocks is their newest location.

    The only bad thing is that the location of Red Rocks SUCKS. It is on the edge of Las Vegas and there’s not much around it. Those who don’t bring cars won’t really have anywhere to go where they can walk. It is also far from the airport.

    I think that having the convention in Las Vegas is a great idea, but if it is going to be in Las Vegas, I think that the best place for it would be somewhere on the Las Vegas strip. Just imagine how much more publicity the Libertarian Party National Convention would receive if it were held on the Las Vegas strip. The convention being held at this Red Rocks place means that a lot less people will know about it.

  50. Precede with Caution, via Lake

    yahoo.com/Science/HumanRelations

    “………. no amount of information or facts about political candidates can override the inherent inability of many voters to accurately evaluate them.

    On top of that, “very smart ideas are going to be hard for people to adopt, because most people don’t have the sophistication to recognize how good an idea is,” Dunning told Life’s Little Mysteries.

    He and colleague Justin Kruger, formerly of Cornell and now of New York University, have demonstrated again and again that people are self-delusional when it comes to their own intellectual skills.

    Whether the researchers are testing people’s ability to rate the funniness of jokes, the correctness of grammar, or even their own performance in a game of chess, the duo has found that people always assess their own performance as “above average” — even people who, when tested, actually perform at the very bottom of the pile.

    [Incompetent People Too Ignorant to Know It]”

  51. ATBAFT

    So, irrespective of the fee issue, what’s wrong with mail ballot for all members to elect the officers and at-large LNC? Many NGOs do it that way and it kind of forces the serious and viable candidates to be well-known across a national spectrum of the group, not just put on a good show for a small assemblage of members rich enough to attend a meeting.

  52. Ad Hoc

    Does that mean the LNC has to provide membership lists and/or distribute literature for whoever decides to run?

  53. Johnson hides finances

    This is what happens with a national committee that wastes all its time on parliamentary foolishness, fights with state affiliates, etc etc etc as discussed in great detail in Liberty for America, rather than paying attention to doing politics.

  54. Darryl W. Perry

    Here’s an idea:
    Instead of paying $10,928.89 per month to rent an office in the Watergate, the LP could relocate the HQ to Kansas City and get office space for roughly 1/5th the cost; saving roughly $96,000 per year ($192,000 every 2 years), which is more than enough to put on a convention without the need to charge floor fees for delegates.

    That said, I would not be opposed to implementing a secure method of voting whereby all LP members would be able to vote for National Committee members and the Presidential ticket.

    After all; as a registered voter, if I’m unable to vote on election day, I can cast an absentee ballot.

  55. ATBAFT

    #66, the groups I’m familiar with keep their lists secure by having an independent mailing house do whatever mailings the candidates wish to do at their own expense.

  56. Johnson finally reveals finances

    @69

    Excellent idea. I can think of several other sensible choices for locations:

    Colorado, where the party was founded.
    New Hampshire, the Free State
    Orlando, where many libertarians take the children on vacation, and will have a few minutes to stop by party HQ and pick up literature, etc.

    This list is not complete. Look at air fairs in and out…places with a near-monopoly airline will irregularly tend to have high fares.

    With the savings, we could also put out a monthly newsletter so that voters have some idea of what is going on within the party. We used to do that.

  57. Ad Hoc

    the groups I’m familiar with keep their lists secure by having an independent mailing house do whatever mailings the candidates wish to do at their own expense.

    Understood.

    However, not all LP wackjobs are broke.

    Some of them could in fact afford a mailing at their own expense.

    Presumably, the LP could not discriminate between candidates, and would have to forward, for example, James Ogle’s rants if, say, he ran for Secretary and came up with the money for the mailing to everyone who paid $25 or more to the LP in the past year under your system, correct?

  58. Thomas L. Knapp

    —–
    Colorado, where the party was founded.
    New Hampshire, the Free State
    Orlando, where many libertarians take the children on vacation, and will have a few minutes to stop by party HQ and pick up literature, etc.
    —-

    A double-wide trailer in Minot, North Dakota would work just fine.

    The executive director could LIVE in DC, telecommute, and be available for such hobnobbing, media access, etc., as is necessary.

    That’s the only function of the national office that requires it to be located in DC. The rest of it is office work that can be done anywhere.

  59. George Phillies

    The heating costs on a double-wide in ND, and the availability of local libertarian volunteers in Minot, suggest that there might be better alternatives.

    Also, the person you want in DC is a publicist (perhaps two publicists) , not the office manager however titled.

  60. ATBAFT

    #72, yes a wackjob could do that, but I haven’t seen it happen yet in the three organizations I belong to that do it this way. But that is probably better than the wackjob doing it in front of CSPAN at the convention.

  61. ATBAFT

    #74, yes have a publicist in a small office in D.C. and the operations somewhere in flyover cheap rental country. Could even use the D.C. address so it looks like the Party is in D.C. and have the mail forwarded to the operations center several times each week.

  62. Webster T. Findlay

    @76

    They don’t get in front of CSPAN unless they get enough signatures/tokens/whatever first, and it’s a lot more likely to happen in the LP than most organizations.

  63. Erik Viker

    The TANSTAAFL Package is a good compromise. An additional $94 is not too much to bear after making the trip to Vegas. Haters gonna hate.

  64. Wilhelm T. Freiburg

    Is a voting fee actually against the bylaws? If so, where in the bylaws is it prohibited?

  65. Nicholas Sarwark

    @80: Yes, and nowhere.

    Specifically, the Bylaws establish qualifications for being a delegate, namely being selected by a state affiliate to represent them at convention.

    There’s no specific bylaw that says “No fee can be charged to delegates.” However, if a state sends a delegate who does not pay the $94 and that delegate is barred from the business session, that’s a violation of the bylaws by creating a requirement unsupported by the bylaws.

    In addition to that, there’s been no floor fee for 40 years. Changing a practice that longstanding should have the explicit approval of the convention delegates by creating a bylaw that supports that change, not sprung on them by the convention committee.

    A bylaws change to explicitly prohibit a floor fee was reported out of the 2010 bylaws committee by a vote of 5-3, but not considered by the convention due to lack of time.

    I have not seen if the 2012 bylaws committee has reported out a similar proposal, but if not, I encourage supporters of a fee to vote at convention to submit such a proposal from the floor so it can be properly debated and voted on by the membership.

  66. Robert Capozzi

    81 ns, if this is in fact a bylaws violation, what is the remedy? Is there a means available to rectify this? Could the Judicial Committee be called on prior to the convention, or perhaps after the convention?

  67. Nicholas Sarwark

    @82: My suggestion is that people contact their LNC representatives to ask them to reverse that decision of the Convention Oversight Committee so that it doesn’t become an issue for the Judicial Committee.

  68. Brian Holtz

    @80 See the lengthy discussion at https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2010/02/roberts-author-gives-opinion-on-lp-convention-registration-fees/

    I’ll quote just one part:

    The Bylaws don?t say what ?registration? means. Robert?s does. And Robert?s says it ?normally? includes a ?registration fee?.

    If there’s a possibility that this subject will come before JudCom, then I’m hesitant to comment beyond what I’ve already written e.g. in the thread cited above.

  69. Robert Capozzi

    84 bh, as I won’t be attending, I’m just trying to understand and do my fair cop routine here. Roberts may well say “normally,” but that has simply not been the precedent.

    Costs are fungible. I think I get the TANSTAAFL thing, and yet there HAS been a free lunch. Oy.

    Still, in part because I’d like to see GJ get the nomination and perform, I dunno, somewhere north of Barr and south of Perot, I’d like to see the static carping go away. Despite JudCom’s reasonable yet non-stellar performance on BeaverGate, I did appreciate the dispatch, certainty and clarity which y’all performed.

    Floor fee, no floor fee…deal with it, is my take.

  70. Darryl W. Perry

    @86 I think I get the TANSTAAFL thing, and yet there HAS been a free lunch.

    There was no “free lunch”- there was a convention that did not charge a floor fee; no meals were provided without fee.

  71. Steven R Linnabary

    BH @ 84:

    Since when did the current LNC give a flying what the Judicial Committee said or did?

    PEACE

  72. Thomas L. Knapp

    Robert’s only applies to the extent that it is consistent with the bylaws.

    Whether or not Robert’s says that a fee “normally” accompanies registration is irrelevant, as the bylaws clearly list the qualifications to be a delegate — and therefore to “register” as one — and those qualifications do not include a fee.

    Yes, there is a faction in the LP’s national leadership which perpetually finds authorization in Robert’s to do whatever the hell it feels like doing based on the claim that on page 57, i paragraph three, the word “the” gives them plenary Zeus-like thunderbolt powers to rule by decree, but that faction gets knocked on its ass every time it tries to pull that shit, and will presumably eventually learn its lesson or get permanently drummed out of the positions it holds on and off.

  73. Rob Banks

    Liberty for America has learned that a draft brief for appeal to Judicial Committee may be in circulation.

    Where is it being circulated?

  74. Marc Montoni

    Yes, there is a faction in the LP’s national leadership which perpetually finds authorization in Robert’s to do whatever the hell it feels like doing based on the claim that on page 57, i paragraph three, the word “the” gives them plenary Zeus-like thunderbolt powers to rule by decree, but that faction gets knocked on its ass every time it tries to pull that shit, and will presumably eventually learn its lesson or get permanently drummed out of the positions it holds on and off.

    Indeed on the Zeus bit; however, I disagree on everything after the word “eventually”. There are some people who have appeared on the LNC frequently for the better part of two decades, who are in the Zeus camp. Most of them are (or were) Barr and/or Root supporters, and they seem to refuse to get the message. In watching them get re-elected time after time, I am left wondering whether it’s just because we Libertarians are just so weak that we can’t come up with people who have better business sense, or whether we Libertarians are just terminally daft/gullible.

    I lean towards the weakness explanation.

    But an explanation is not an excuse. Other organizations have grown from zero to hero in 40 years. There is no real reason the LP can’t acquire and maintain a steady growth trajectory. I believe the main roadblock to getting on such a trajectory is internal: Instead of finding new ways to raise money, recruit more candidates, and grow the membership, the leadership spends massive amounts of time diddling with the inconsequential:

    – purging Keaton, Wrights, Labianca;

    – making sure only ‘reformers’ are appointed to the Bylaws and Platform comittees;

    – screwing around with the Platform;

    – throwing the presidential nod to people like Barr;

    – trying to convince us that delivering a nametag and a binder with about $15 worth of paperwork to 75 to 100 “free” delegates wreaks devastation to the bottom line, etc)

    – trying to make the Party into something it will never be (a big tent a la the Ds and Rs).

    What the LNC could be doing is starting initiatives that might actually result in a stronger LP. Like:

    – raise a half-million dollars to start a membership drive that will have a goal of recruiting 15,000 new members by the end of the year;

    – double the number of people who are submitting monthly pledges;

    – run at least ten training seminars a la “Success99” across the country before the election;

    – and run a real convention with the help of corporate cash.

    How to grow the LP isn’t rocket science, it’s just marketing. But we have a faction at national that thinks all of its internal “screw the opposition” machinations are actually accomplishing anything — and that really seems to be all they’re good at.

    Sigh. Maybe next term.

  75. Robert Capozzi

    Dwp, right. There are costs associated with the business meeting. It seems that matching revenues with those costs could be allocated a number of ways.

  76. Brian Holtz

    On Feb 20, 2010 at 11:12 pm, I wrote:

    1. Bylaw 11(3) mentions delegate registration as an extra step beyond accreditation by an affiliate: “At all Regular Conventions delegates shall be those so accredited who have registered at the Convention.”
    2. Nothing in the Bylaws defines registration.
    3. “The rules contained in the current edition of Robert’s Rules of Order, Newly Revised shall govern the Party in all cases to which they are applicable and in which they are not inconsistent with these bylaws”.
    4. RRONR p. 593 says registration “normally includes” “paying the registration fee”.

    Libertarians, of all people, should be able to argue that something is a bad idea without relying on an argument that it is (or should be) against the rules.

  77. Kevin Knedler

    Marc @ 93.
    I can’t speak to the last LNC term– wasn’t there.
    But I can speak to the present and some observations:
    #1 Youth movement in the LP is coming and coming fast. We need to do everything possible to get them into the game NOW. Who says Ron Paul has a corner on the Gen Y group? They will be in leadership roles soon enough, but why not start now in the LP?

    #2 Rebirth of the LSLA. This can work, if the state affiliates want it to. They will be doing workshops at the national convention. Moving the LSLA annual event into the LP National Convention–who’s idea was that? The LSLA should be the breeding ground for future leadership at the local, state, AND LNC level ! This is where leaders could be born. We need more leadership at all levels. Not just rhetoric.

    Opening up the LNC sub-committees to those outside of the LNC. It is happening. Look no further than to the last LNC meeting in December. THe Convention Oversight Committee, the Affiliate Support Committee, and the IT Committee now allow for some new blood from the outside. It didn’t take me long to see the LNC was too “closed-off” and was expecting the LNC to be the experts at everything. Well, we are not. That is why we need to tap into the huge amount of talent that is out there. Put them in the game, put them onto a LNC sub-commitee (with a vote), get new out-of-the box ideas!
    All of this is NOT rocket science. Businesses do this everyday, or take risk of being put out of business by a lack of vision and competitive pressures.

    Kevin Knedler
    At-Large member to the LNC
    State Chair to the Ohio LP
    Chief “motivator” in Ohio LP

  78. Tom Blanton

    I have the solution.

    Simply have a totally free convention held in some place like Amsterdam.

    LP member delegates would only have to pay for basic expenses like air fare, transportation, hotels, meals, drugs, booze and hookers.

    All basic expenses for the LNC, LPHQ staff would be paid for by the LP. Each LNC member would be able to invite one Republican whose expenses would also be taken care of.

  79. Kevin Knedler

    LOL.
    We can put Amsterdam in the bidding for 2018.
    Since 2012, 2014, and 2016 locations are already set.

  80. Kevin Knedler

    Problems. Maybe we need some IT and web experts.

    2014: Columbus, Ohio
    2016: will be decided on March 10 at LNC meeting. Finalists are Los Angeles, CA; Jacksonville, FL; Orlando, FL.

    Nothing like working out 3 to 4 years. More options and more cities available when you work out further.

  81. JT

    Montoni: “throwing the presidential nod to people like Barr..”

    How did the leadership “throw” the nomination to Barr?

    Libertarians say that about someone who won the nomination for President or an LNC officer seat. Without exception, those Libertarians are referring to someone whom they opposed. They can’t understand how so many other Libertarians supported that person; therefore, there must be some other explanation for why that person won.

    But the simple fact of the matter is that Barr won the nomination because slightly more than half of the delegates preferred him in the final round, just as Root nearly won LNC Chair because slightly less than half preferred him in the final round. Both had widespread support from Libertarians to start.

    And lest anyone bring up what happened with Harry Browne, I’ll just say that he obviously was going to get the nomination after he announced and would’ve won it easily regardless.

  82. Wes Wagner

    RONR (11th ed.) p. 572, l. 2-4: Members cannot be assesed any additional payment aside from their dues unless it is provided for in the bylaws.

  83. Thomas L. Knapp

    BH@95,

    “Libertarians, of all people, should be able to argue that something is a bad idea without relying on an argument that it is (or should be) against the rules.”

    I have pointed out that it’s a bad idea — a subsidy for vacationers, and a demand for additional payment to participate as the membership’s representative to an event that the membership already paid for — elsewhere.

    But since it is against the rules, why should I have to continually re-post those arguments?

    Since it is against the rules, the burden of argument should be on those who want to change it, and their approach should be to seek a change in the rules, not just to see if they can get away with breaking the rules every other year.

  84. Thomas L. Knapp

    JT@103,

    “And lest anyone bring up what happened with Harry Browne, I’ll just say that he obviously was going to get the nomination after he announced and would’ve won it easily regardless.”

    Not according to then-national-director Perry Willis. In Willis’s confession to having covertly worked to turn LPHQ into an annex of the Browne campaign in early 1996, he asserts that had he not done so, the campaign would have shut down well before the convention.

  85. Marc Montoni

    Knapp and I thoroughly disagree on the meaning of what happened in 1996 & 2000, and we will continue to disagree. I do not intend to rehash the argument again; those who want to believe something will believe it regardless of the facts.

    For those who may read Knapps’ take who wonder if his portrayal is accurate, I would suggest reading

    what Willis *actually* said.

  86. Brian Holtz

    Wes@104, I presume that what wrote on Feb 20, 2010 at 11:44 pm about RONR v10 still applies to v11:

    That is in the middle of a discussion of what should be said by the Bylaw article that defines membership. It’s only about the requirements for membership, and the sentence you quote is just saying that no fees beyond dues can be required for membership. This has nothing to do with whether a registration fee can be charged to the tiny subset of members who are delegates to a convention. Instead, it would forbid the LP from, say, requiring all members to also buy an LP News subscription, over and above their dues.

  87. Wahid T. Faisal

    KK @96, 102

    Are the IT specs public or is the LNC buying a pig in a poke?

  88. Wes Wagner

    BH @109

    The bylaws are what grant you the right to participate. A lesser document cannot place additional restrictions on that right.

    The bylaws are where you would have to set limits on fees. LP bylaws set requirements that must be met to be a delegate. As a standard of interpretation (where Robert’s dictates how Robert’s is to be interpreted) you cannot add additional requirements if requirements already exist in the bylaws (in this case they do).

    For example, the national association of parliamentarians charge a fee to attend their convention. That fee, and the right to charge it, is defined in their bylaws.

    Another example would be for the judicial committee to institute an “appearance fee” of $69,832 to raise a judicial committee petition and have it heard.

    Such a fee would not be legal under Robert’s and the LP Bylaws, as the requirements of what is needed to have a judicial committee hearing called is already defined.

  89. Humongous Fungus

    Such a fee would not be legal under Robert’s and the LP Bylaws, as the requirements of what is needed to have a judicial committee hearing called is already defined.

    Speaking of which, has it ever been conclusively decided whether email/internet signatures are valid for that purpose?

  90. Wes Wagner

    Me @111

    Read the letter from Robert’s. I wonder if this is a situation of where the opinion rendered was based very much on the framing of the question asked.

    It may be the case that the opinion as it is written is valid, but it most certainly does conflict with other opinions I have seen based on how to interpret a list of requirements.

    Hence back to the point that assessing a Fee of $69k on a judicial committee appearance, or, say a $100,000,000,000 fee to register as a delegate unless you are a member of the LNC.

    That is one of the fundamental principles of requiring that all requirements to engaging in an act as a member of the organization is supposed to be a complete list.

    Following the opinion rendered in the previous dispute literally would mean the LNC could unilaterally declare themselves gods by setting an insurmountable requirement.

  91. Humongous Fungus

    I’m surprised that I haven’t seen the petition to the judcom yet. Where is it posted?

  92. Mark Hilgenberg

    Looks like I won’t be renewing my LNC membership and I will be focusing 50% of my activism time on my own state party and the remaining 50% trying to help find ways to get rid of the people who would have the gall to want to charge people to volunteer for liberty.

    So much for actually thinking things may change with the LNC. Time to go on the offensive and stop playing nice.

  93. Future Brian Holtz

    EEBAE i10 c. 593 fnlf ertvfgengvba “abeznyyl vapyhqrf” “cnlvat gur ertvfgengvba srr”.

    V qba’g xabj jurgure EEBAE i11 zragvbaf srrf sbe nccrnyf gb n fbpvrgl’f vagreany whqvpvny obql.

    Qbrf gur YAP va guvf havirefr abg unir gur cbjre gb pubbfr gur pbairagvba fvgr, orpnhfr va fbzr nygreangr havirefr gur YAP zvtug pubbfr gb cynpr vg jurer bayl YAP zrzoref pna tb?

  94. Mark Hilgenberg

    Rob,

    I will do my best to be there but I and some of my family have major health costs so financially it will be hard. There are ways to help state parties grow to the point where we just over take them.

    My movement is Liberty, not the LP so I have no problem publically embarrassing the party for the greater cause of liberty.

    As you can see from “Tell the truth”, we need to change our image.

  95. Mark Hilgenberg

    Wes,

    Do I need to be an LNC member to vote, or is state party membership ok?

    What would happen if dozens of delegates show up and are official members, voted on by our states tec. Yet we refuse to pay? How bad could that gum up the proceedings?

  96. JT

    I’ve had a similar conversation with Knapp before as well, Marc. I’ll also refer to the link at your post 108 rather than rehash that here. I’ll say though that if anyone thinks Tompkins or Schiff would’ve been nominated instead of Browne, whether or not Browne had to suspend his campaign activities before the convention, that person needs to have his or her head examined.

  97. George Phillies

    @121 As I have noted in my book “Funding Liberty”, some of whose lead characters are re-surfacing, if Browne had quit there was an obvious ready-to-go alternative, neither Schiff nor Tompkins.

    And there were plenty of other choices.

  98. Nicholas Sarwark

    @Mark: At present, you only have to be a delegate selected by a state affiliate to be a delegate to the National convention.

    I believe there’s a Bylaws proposal to require delegates to pay National dues to be seated at convention, but that’s not the current rule.

  99. Wes Wagner

    MH @120

    Go to the convention site and read through the chairs delegation manual… it is actually a well put together document thanks to Bob and Alicia.

    My understanding is that you have to be either a national member or a state affiliate member.

    I suspect there are people who are state only members who show up and never pay a dime to national.

    To that I say, meh… who cares, so long as that state is getting ballot access and supporting our candidates, so be it 🙂

  100. Wes Wagner

    MH @126

    Credentials committee will deliver a report claiming you showed up asking for credentials but was denied.

    Someone on the floor raises the issue.

    Nasty floor fight ensues.

    Ruling class gets their heads cut off, and you get added to the delegate list.

    That is the way this usually goes.

    If it doesn’t… well we didn’t have a libertarian party anyway… come find me and we will go play poker or something.

  101. Nicholas Sarwark

    I will reiterate, I strongly encourage people to contact their LNC representatives to try and avoid the situation that Wes describes @127. That fight is not one worth having when there’s other pressing business for the delegates to be dealing with.

  102. Wes Wagner

    NS @128

    The LNC route is already being taken, but it is a foregone conclusion that they will uphold the convention committee.

    The fix was in before the committee was even formed.

    This should just stand as testimony as to why the party needs to clean house.

  103. LibertarianGirl

    can the body of delegates override the Con. Comm. floor fee?? i know when deleagtes are added Ive never seen them deny anyone even when it was clear they were deck stackers for a particular candidate

  104. Nicholas Sarwark

    The LNC route is already being taken, but it is a foregone conclusion that they will uphold the convention committee.

    I’m not as pessimistic. I think that if they hear from a lot of members that they will change their mind. I base this belief on the fact that there was a proposed floor fee in 2010, but there was no floor fee (or the attendant credentials fight) at the 2010 convention. My belief is that was a direct result of the complaints the LNC received about the floor fee.

  105. Ad Hoc

    TTT

    Libertarian = peace, civil liberties, smaller government

    Republican = endless war, quasi-theocracy, stasiocracy, crony corporatism

    See the difference?

  106. Mark Hilgenberg

    Nicholas,

    I agree, try the proper route first. I think I will start a facebook page promoting the elimination of the floor fee though. 🙂

    A little pressure never hurts.

  107. matt cholko

    KK and any other LNC members who read this – please consider my opinion that Orlando would make an excellent convention city. The city attracts people anyway, and the theme parks and proximity to Daytona Beach may allow people to turn it into a family vacation – thus increasing attendance. It is also an easy and reasonably affordable city to get to by plane or bus.

  108. Humongous Fungus

    @138-9 LA would be within easiest driving, bicycling, walking or metro transit distance of the greatest number of people, so it would get my vote on that basis.

    The fewer people dealing with the TSSA the better.

    Speaking of which, are we never going to have conventions in the Boswash corridor ever again? I understand that several cities there are on the pricy side, but I have read that Baltimore is relatively reasonable.

    And whatever happened to Texas being promised a convention?

  109. Marc Montoni

    Actually, I’d prefer Amsterdam, Virginia. Right down the road from me.

    New Yawk? Hell, no. With all due respect, Eric. 😉

    In Amsterdam **Virginia** I can take a walk down Amsterdam Rd open-carrying my firearm on my hip without the sheriff getting a call.

    In NY? Hah.

  110. Paulie

    Well, as long as it’s not Amsterdam, Saskatchewan, I think we can work something out.

  111. outsider view

    @ 129
    Kinda of like the methods you used to clean house in Oregon eh? It worked didn’t it.
    Just take over. Bring in the thugs.

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