More news from the Libertarian Party of Oregon:
After having their lawsuit against the Wagner group dismissed on the 26th of May, The Reeves group filed an Objection to Proposed Order:
Objections to OUR Proposed Order on MSJs and Motion to Strike (P0334967)
Today, June 4th, the Judge responded:
Here’s is some background on the dispute:
Oregon Libertarian Party Lawsuit Dismissed
Mark V @ 18:
The LPO dwindled down to what… a dozen or so attending the 2009 convention, and a bank account over extended and closed, over 40K in debts with creditors pursuing legal means to collect.
Bob T:
Such is the legacy of the Burke era of the LPO.
As for the money, I need to point out something in response to Wes reminding me that Burke had brought in a lot of large donations and was able to make rent payments with that money (aside from get his own cut).
The point is that Burke wasted that money. People who were donating a thousand a month or every other monthm like that guy from near Klamath Falls, assumed the money would be spent wisely. I’ve asked people time and again to name a single person who joined the party because they were “impressed” that the LPO had that office in Beaverton. I’m still waiting. Even if someone can name one or two, big deal.
Just to name one better idea, one that Mike Wilson and I wanted to try out for some years, I would have put money into a monthly billboard message such as the one that one limited government guy had for people see while they driving northbound on I-5 in Washington State.
That billboard and its messages often made news, i.e. got people’s attention, and attracted followers.
That’s just one idea that would have been better for the party than to provide Burke with a home away from home.
Bob T
Mark V @ 18:
The problem was that nobody really read RRoR or would take the time to actually understand its meanings. Its 816 of very dull and dry reading, that takes quite a bit of discussion and deliberation to fully understand how the rules work.
Bob T:
Yes, I understand and acknowledge that. The point here is that when Burke utilized it he knew he was taking advantage of others’ mild grasp of the rules and intended to catch them off guard over and over again, particularly when he knew it was the only way he could get something he wanted, or stop something he didn’t want.
Burke used many tricks to expand the power of the chair, as he saw it, during and between meetings, yet when someone he didn’t like became chair (Michael Wilson for example), Burke claimed that the chair had the authority to “run meetings”, but that’s all.
Bob T
opps yep there was a box… i wonder what happened to it?
@5… damn I had for gotten about that box… and my set doesn’t have it… ha… no that was for 2nd additions the original 1974 addition had no box… and the 1974 Men & Magic is listing for $75 on ebay. I wonder what I could get for an original set in bitcoin?
When you’re a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail….
Bob,
somethings are just jokes and not intended to be a
platform to jump into the “i hate burke” pool.
BT @17
The problem was that nobody really read RRoR or would take the time to actually understand its meanings. Its 816 of very dull and dry reading, that takes quite a bit of discussion and deliberation to fully understand how the rules work.
You know, there are whole societies that exist for the sole purpose to understand these rules, and they even have test of understanding them to even be a initiate.
Laymen who grab this book then try to interpret it do end up using it like an Battle Axe and everyone gets bloody. I have seen school committee chairs weld RRoR very poorly, to the point of running everyone off the committee.
Its all comes down to a power game. Someone grabs RRoR and proclaims to be the “Supreme Seer of the Rules” and those who are supporters of the “Supreme seer” are benefited because the seer interprets the rules that take from others and give to themselves.
If you question the Seer of the Rules then you are now an “Enemy of the State” and will be persecuted! Your membership may just disappear (like mine did under the rule of Mr. Burke), or be converted in to a donation (like how Burke converted Renee Kimball membership). And thus you are purged, expunged from the holy society of those who support the Supreme Seer of the rules.
Normal people just move on from such organizations that are so poorly run….and that is what they did.
The LPO dwindled down to what… a dozen or so attending the 2009 convention, and a bank account over extended and closed, over 40K in debts with creditors pursuing legal means to collect.
If you have not figured it out by now…when you let crazy pilot your ship, it always ends up sinking.
Fred Jabin @ 3:
Yikes, I am now envisioning a Libertarian organization that has replaced Roberts Rules of Order with Dungeon Master’s Guide.
Bob T:
Burke was the first chair of the LPO to use Roberts Rules as a club/axe in order to make power plays on decent committee members who were not prepared for such actions and who still believed that no chair of the LPO could really be a bad person.
For that reason some of us attempted to remove the use of Roberts Rules from the Bylaws so we could replace them with an alternative (there’s another one that M. Wilson might recall suggesting). At the county level (Multnomah), we got rid of RR and for meeting relied on being civil.
Bob T
“The religious organization grew and today it is one of the largest organizations of its type on the west coast…”
Environmentalism?
I am sure this will be “Troll Food” (DT and RC) but I want to say this anyway….
I was once involved with a small religious organization that had perhaps 30 members. The board then decided to buy the old VFW hall that went up for sale that was across the street.
The membership grew, and the in-fighting started.
The original founding members of the group where upset that the new people showing up did not see things as they do, nor where the original founding members able to press upon the new people their importance on them as they could in the old smaller setting where they could dominate everything…that simply was not the case with the new large building and its many rooms and large hall that allowed for many activities to occur.
Some of the original member adapted and stayed, whereas some left in a huff of anger and outrage of the new direction the church was taking and was to never be seen again.
A few of the original members got a lawyer and tried to challenge the authority of the board that made the choices that that they did make, citing procedures and rules…Negotiations did take place but it was to little, to late. Those who wanted things to return to “as it had been” simply realized it was not to be.
The religious organization grew and today it is one of the largest organizations of its type on the west coast, and it is still growing and acquiring more buildings and students of its teachings.
Don’t give the Oregonians any ideas.
@3: It certainly couldn’t be worse than the current state of affairs. I swear, some libertarians could use RRoR to justify mass murder if they were properly motivated.
“no opinion one way or the other. I personally felt the entire matter should have gone into mediation, not court.”
Maybe with a therapist and some foam baseball bats to beat each other up with?
RC@10
You pay for the airfare.. the technitions .. the videographer..etc.etc… I am there.
br, no opinion one way or the other. I personally felt the entire matter should have gone into mediation, not court.
I’d like to see Wagner and Reeves or Burke strapped into a polygraph during the mediation, since I’ve seen no commitment to truth above all else in this process. We’ve been treated instead to pointed jabs and deflections…since, apparently, 1996.
RC8: This was not a criminal case. They have the “right” but they need grounds, some basis, to file an appeal. They can’t appeal just because they lost. What issue do you think they can bring up in an appeal?
br6: The judge has declared the game over.
me: Interesting perspective. Is it your contention that the “cabal” has no right to appeal?
BR @6
Don’t forget the puppet masters, Starr and Mattson… without their money and influence peddling this would have ended before it even started.
The Burke, Reeves, Carling et al cabal is done. The judge has declared the game over. Their silly ploy of creating their own make-believe judicial committee inside their own make-believe LPO has been crushed.
Perhaps they can take over US Parliament’s make believe game.
Nah. Burke would still lose. They he’d have to sue that Oogle guy.
@3 Presumably the Holy First Edition in the original plywood box.
Wagner For DM 2014
ROCKS SHALL FALL!!!
DC@2-
Yikes, I am now envisioning a Libertarian organization that has replaced Roberts Rules of Order with Dungeon Master’s Guide.
I’m here, but I’m not the David you’re looking for. *grin*
Seriously though, unless someone really feels like appealing this thing (and is willing to find a judge willing to take that appeal and consider it), it looks like this goose is well and truly cooked.
As anybody with a light exposure to role playing games will tell you, rules lawyering will only get you as far as the GM is willing to accept – and no farther. Looks like the judge declared “Rocks fall, everyone dies” on the Reeves Campaign.
(I now have a +1 to my “RPG Reference in IPR Comment Threads” skill! Woo!)
David? You there? … hello? Is this thing on? Hello?