Liberty News Now: GOP Elites Mounting Third Party Takeover To Stop Trump

cmimg_75512From Liberty News Now:

If you’re going to mount an independent or third party run, the easiest way to do it is by stealing the ballot access of the Libertarian Party . . . or that’s what the GOP Establishment may think.

The LP is the third largest political party and is on track to have their presidential candidate on the ballots of 48 to 50 states in November.

Last week, anti-Trump GOP donors commissioned a study on the requirements for an independent run. The Florida firm who conducted the study, Data Targeting, had a memo leak that concluded, “it is possible to mount an independent candidacy but [it] will require immediate action on the part of this core of key funding and strategic players.”

Essentially, it was an optimistic, “we’re screwed.”

An independent candidate would need over 450,000 signatures of voters just to be on the ballot in 11 states.

Rather than spend millions of dollars on an attempt to get a candidate on the ballot that could challenge Donald Trump, it appears the GOP Establishment has been caught trying to steal the ballot access of the Libertarian Party.

With the permission of the LP, data experts dove into their anonymous Web site traffic to find that, within the last week, visitors have been searching for “Libertarian Party,” hitting LP.org, and signing up as members.

The party has received more sustained traffic in the last week than it had seen since October of 2012.

The party has also confirmed that they have had more new members join the party within the last seven days than at any time since 2008.

Unlike the Republican and Democrat parties, the LP requires a minimum donation of $25 to become a member of the party. New members must also sign a pledge tied to the principles of the party.

There are no active, new member acquisition campaigns under way by the LP, and the existing presidential candidates have driven few visitors to the site.

Read rest of article here.

On the LNC Votes list, Wes Benedict had this to say in response:

I removed some off-putting graphics from the top of LP.org that distracted people from joining, then posted a very popular poll asking people to select their preferred candidate for president, new memberships started increasing right away, and now people want to give GOP operatives credit for things that were the result of my website upgrades?

Figures.
Wes Benedict, Executive Director
Libertarian National Committee, Inc.
1444 Duke St., Alexandria, VA 22314
(202) 333-0008 ext. 232, wes.benedict@lp.org
facebook.com/libertarians @LPNational
Join the Libertarian Party at: http://lp.org/membership

This entry was posted in Libertarian Party on by .

About Caryn Ann Harlos

Caryn Ann Harlos is a paralegal residing in Castle Rock, Colorado and presently serving as the Region 1 Representative on the Libertarian National Committee and is a candidate for LNC Secretary at the 2018 Libertarian Party Convention. Articles posted should NOT be considered the opinions of the LNC nor always those of Caryn Ann Harlos personally. Caryn Ann's goal is to provide information on items of interest and (sometimes) controversy about the Libertarian Party and minor parties in general not to necessarily endorse the contents.

94 thoughts on “Liberty News Now: GOP Elites Mounting Third Party Takeover To Stop Trump

  1. Shane

    Lol. So Wes you’re saying that changing graphics led to the biggest sustained traffic spike since 2012 that’s being pushed from a few offices? Zero sense bro.

  2. Thomas L. Knapp

    Interesting.

    I wonder if there’s any “there” there.

    One way to tell will be if a bunch of new people suddenly pop up seeking to be delegates to the national convention. This is something that the state parties can and should be watchful for.

    In 2008, there were all kinds of rumors that Bob Barr had buses ready to pull into Denver at the last moment and disgorge new members into waiting friendly state delegations. To this day, I occasionally see someone claiming that’s what happened, but it didn’t.

  3. Richard Winger

    Wes says LP dues-paying membership has been good these last few weeks, but Wes says he has no reason to think there is a conspiracy or an organized attempt. That info is via Bill Redpath, who talked to Wes, so it is third-hand.

  4. Shane

    And Wes if you take a look at your analytics and knew how to interpret them, you’d see that your “upgrade” actually did more harm than good.

    You should be getting SIGNIFICANTLY more new members if you had a conversion funnel.

    You should quit toying around with things and stick to what you know, which is?

  5. Jill Pyeatt

    It would be a good idea for each state to hatch some kind of a plan to head off a takeover like this.

    Frankly, I’ve wondered if Petersen was running for president for a reason such as this. Would he get a bunch of his supporters to the convention, then suddenly drop out? Stranger things have happened.

  6. Shane

    RW, Wes is full of shit. The dude hasn’t brought in a spike of members since he took over. He wouldn’t know how to.

    That’s not to say that this is for sure an organized attempt. Hell it could be Vermin Supreme, but I doubt he’d be able to generate the traffic out of CA — which is where it’s originating.

    I have my suspicions on who could do it but it will take some monitoring to confirm.

    In the meantime TK is right and the LP and candidates who should ride the possibility of a takeover attempt. Good media regardless.

  7. George Phillies

    The Massaxhcusetts State Committee considered this issue last month. It is our position that being a delegate is an honor and a privilege, given to reward Libertarians who have a substantial record of working for or contributing to the party. Thus, when I was contacted today by an emissary of the Johnson campaign, who wanted to place people into our delegation, I explained our rules and there was no further interest in the topic.

  8. Gene Berkman

    The New York Times has an article “Anti-Trump Republicans Call for a Third-Party Option” which includes a mention of The Libertarian Party and former Governor Gary Johnson. It includes a quote from neocon Max Boot, who says “I would sooner vote for Josef Stalin than I would vote for Donald Trump,” – thus dispelling rumors that all neocons are former Trotskyites.

    NYT article @ http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/03/us/politics/anti-donald-trump-republicans-call-for-a-third-party-option.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

  9. Andy

    “Richard Winger
    March 3, 2016 at 18:40

    Wes says LP dues-paying membership has been good these last few weeks,”

    This depends on what your definition of good is in terms of number of dues paying members.

    The LP had over 33,000 dues paying members 15 years ago. What are the numbers at today? Last I heard it was 11,000 and something.

    Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the purpose of the organization was to grow. If we were at 33,000 and something dues paying members 15 years ago, shouldn’t we have significantly more dues paying members than that today? I would say yes.

    So membership numbers today are “good,” compared to what?

    This reminds of of how in the government controlled education system they dumb down tests and give out inflated grades to make it look like students are doing better than they really are, all so the education system doesn’t look as bad as it should.

  10. Andy Craig

    The GOP is collapsing and we’re seeing a flood of interest and people joining the party, and instead of celebrating, we’re going to start worrying about how it might be a conspiracy to steal our ballot access? What exactly is the concern, that they’re somehow going to stuff the convention such that Mitt Romney is nominated? Good luck with that.

    You can organize people who want to be delegates, and on the margins help fill out some empty seats in the states that way. But by and large the delegates are going to be regular members of the LP, who are committed to it enough to make the trip to a convention on the other side of the country. Any good campaign should be finding out who the delegates are, and helping supporters who want to be delegates to find out how they can. Convention “stuffing” though is mostly a myth. What actually happens is much more akin to boosting turnout, get-out-the-vote if you will. It’s not bringing in interlopers and newbies to somehow outnumber the LPers.

  11. Shane

    Andy, if that number is correct, it’s the lowest level since Dasbach.

    It would even be lower than when the LNC lost a massive amount of members under “zero dues.” That was eight to ten months of not being able to ask for a renewal or new paid member.

    It’s actually hard to get that low. It falls in line with attrition due to churn — basically years of inaction. Time for some staff changes and putting in someone who will get things done.

  12. Andy

    “Shane
    March 3, 2016 at 19:06

    Andy, if that number is correct, it’s the lowest level since Dasbach.”

    I think somebody posted it here sometime within the last few months. Dues paying membership was at 11,000 and something.

    This was around the size the party was back around 1994-1995, and when you take into consideration that the population of the USA has grown significantly since then, membership numbers are actually worse than they were in 1994-1995

  13. Thomas L. Knapp

    “The LP had over 33,000 dues paying members 15 years ago. What are the numbers at today? Last I heard it was 11,000 and something.”

    Yes, the LNC managed to puff up the numbers in the late 1990s with aggressive direct mail operations to rented lists. That growth came with a very high rate of non-renewal. The only way to sustain the growth was to rent more and more lists and do more and more mailings. At some point you run out of good lists and the sugar high ends.

  14. Andy

    “Thomas L. Knapp
    March 3, 2016 at 19:10

    ‘The LP had over 33,000 dues paying members 15 years ago. What are the numbers at today? Last I heard it was 11,000 and something.’

    Yes, the LNC managed to puff up the numbers in the late 1990s with aggressive direct mail operations to rented lists. That growth came with a very high rate of non-renewal.”

    The party was raising more money back in those days.

    Yes, some of that growth had to do with an aggressive direct mailings, but if you look at overall fundraising, and if you look at the number of elected Libertarians, the Libertarian Party was doing better then than it is today.

    The Harry Browne for President campaigns also played a role in the growth of the party. Harry Browne did a great job of articulating a hardcore libertarian message, and he would regularly plug the party’s 800 number and website when he did interviews. Just going by my own anecdotal evidence I have spoken to lots of people who said that they became a Libertarian because of Harry Browne.

  15. Shane

    TK, Dasbach’s operation with prospecting was great. Non-renewal rates were not bad at all. The were lower compared to the LP’s core base but much higher than the industry.

    As far as rented lists and diminishing quality, sorry, not at that time. The postal universe was massive. It still is and has the highest response rates of any other channel.

    The LNC was idiotic to stop that program. That’s what happens when you have no one in the industry on your board and make decisions based on gut (or lack thereof) rather than knowledge.

    As a comparison, the group I co-founded after the ’08 race has over 150k donors thanks to rented lists. Other groups I got off the ground that didn’t use postal have around 15k donors.

  16. Darcy G Richardson

    “The GOP is collapsing and we’re seeing a flood of interest and people joining the party, and instead of celebrating, we’re going to start worrying about how it might be a conspiracy to steal our ballot access?” — Andy Craig

    I think Andy nailed it. The Republican establishment still has time — and the means — to obtain ballot access for an independent ticket in all fifty states if they so desire.

  17. Andy

    “Shane
    March 3, 2016 at 19:19

    As a comparison, the group I co-founded after the ’08 race has over 150k donors thanks to rented lists. Other groups I got off the ground that didn’t use postal have around 15k donors.”

    Which group is that?

    I have long thought that membership growth should be one of the primary focuses of the party. There are LOTS of people out there who already agree with the Libertarian Party, and a lot of these people already self identify as libertarians, and most of these people have never been dues paying members of the party. If we could get even a small percentage of these people to join the party as dues paying members, the party would be much larger than it is right now.

  18. Thomas L. Knapp

    I’m kind of with both Andy and Darcy here.

    A direct GOP takeover of the LP would be bad for the LP ideologically, but it would bad for the GOP in terms of long-term viability. To put it simply, if the GOP sent a bunch of people over to take over the LP and put in (for example) Romney as the nominee, the LP would get bigger … and it would STAY bigger. Whatever it did for the GOP this year, it would more than cost them later in terms of “spoiler” concerns.

    As far as ballot access goes, not only is there still time for the GOP establishment to do something with its own “independent” effort, but we all know that in the red they would not be held to the rules. They would just get what they want, like they always do.

  19. Andy

    “Darcy G Richardson
    March 3, 2016 at 19:22

    The Republican establishment still has time — and the means — to obtain ballot access for an independent ticket in all fifty states if they so desire.”

    Yeah, I suspect that if they run a candidate to siphon votes away from Trump that they will probably run them as an independent.

    I have not gotten on the Donald Trump bandwagon, but since the GOP establishment apparently does not like Trump, I’m thinking that maybe he is not as bad as some people act like he is. I’m NOT saying that he’s a good guy, or that he’s going to be our great savior, but what I mean is that maybe the GOP establishment sees Trump as a guy that they can’t control, and that’s why they don’t like him.

    I also have to wonder if this entire thing with Trump is just another work (as in he is conning everyone), and he’s really just running to get Hillary Clinton elected.

  20. Shane

    Andy, that was Liberty Guard.

    The key to prospecting is not asking for someone to be a “member” but to ask them to support with a gift. Huge difference that’s unique to the LP.

    A Catholic would donate to a Baptist cause, but if you ask that Catholic to become a Baptist, forget about it.

  21. Andy

    Thomas Knapp said: “To put it simply, if the GOP sent a bunch of people over to take over the LP and put in (for example)”

    The Libertarian Party is almost certainly already infiltrated with government spooks right now, and has been since its inception.

  22. Andy

    Going by my own anecdotal evidence, most of the small “l” libertarians I have spoken to have never even been asked to join the Libertarian Party. Some of them do not even know that there is a Libertarian Party affiliate in the state where they live.

    There are enough people out there who self identify as small “l” libertarians that if we could get even 10-15% of them to join the Libertarian Party as dues paying members, the party would be a good bit larger than it is right now.

  23. Robert Capozzi

    a: There are LOTS of people out there who already agree with the Libertarian Party, and a lot of these people already self identify as libertarians, and most of these people have never been dues paying members of the party.

    me: Yes, there may be LOTS of people who believe there actually is a CotOS compared with 11K. Many, however, are in psych wards. 😉

    There may well be many reasonably stable people who don’t need medication who buy into the NAP as an operative principle for all political analysis.

    Taken together, the ceiling might be — what — 500,000?

    The rest of the tens of millions of Ls remain politically homeless. Kinda sad, in a way.

  24. Anastasia Beaverhausen

    The GOP doesn’t have to ‘steal” our ballot access. The LP has a shameful history of just handing the Presidential nomination over to folks who were Republicans until minutes before.

  25. Andy

    “Robert Capozzi
    March 3, 2016 at 19:53

    a: There are LOTS of people out there who already agree with the Libertarian Party, and a lot of these people already self identify as libertarians, and most of these people have never been dues paying members of the party.

    me: Yes, there may be LOTS of people who believe there actually is a CotOS compared with 11K. Many, however, are in psych wards. ?

    There may well be many reasonably stable people who don’t need medication who buy into the NAP as an operative principle for all political analysis.”

    The Libertarian Party membership oath is not among the reasons that small “l” libertarians have given me for not joining the party. Most have not joined because nobody asked them to join, or they did not know that you have to fill out a membership form and sign the Statement of Principles and send in a minimum of $25 to join. Like I said above, some of these people did not even know that there was a Libertarian Party affiliate in their state. A lot of these people have also told me that the reason they have not joined is because they do not see the party doing anything, or being effective.

  26. Robert Capozzi

    A, yes, new members could be cultivated more aggressively.

    Lapsed members, however, who are non-NAPsters and non-believers in the fictitious CotOS, might often see that the LP is itself a kind of cult.

    Kinda sad, as I said, in a way.

  27. Andy

    “Robert Capozzi
    March 3, 2016 at 20:20

    A, yes, new members could be cultivated more aggressively.

    Lapsed members, however, who are non-NAPsters and non-believers in the fictitious CotOS, might often see that the LP is itself a kind of cult.”

    The biggest reason I hear from lapsed members for why they are no longer active members of the LP is due to the party not being effective or active enough.

    Some became inactive because they decided to go the non-voting anarchist route, but the biggest reason for people going inactive in the LP is that they became frustrated with the party not being effective and/or not doing enough.

  28. Stewart Flood

    This gives us even more reason to be very careful who we allow to become delegates. I’m not sure how other states operate, but in South Carolina you have to show up at county reorganization and attend your county convention to become a delegate to the state convention. By state election law, each county is limited in the number of delegates they can send, based on how many votes for the party’s last presidential candidate came from that county. So if you don’t produce, you lose.

    Our reorganization for this cycle was last September, and the state convention was in November, so new members CANNOT be delegates to our convention when we reconvene to nominate candidates for office in early May. We can name a few more delegates to our national convention, but only the convention delegates can vote on them.

    So we’ve got a safety valve, which pretty much requires having been a member for a half of a year. And we have ByLaws requirements saying that you can’t be elected to a position within the party until you’ve been a member for six months, so we’re safe even during a county reorganization.

    We’ve been preparing for this event.

  29. Stewart Flood

    I wonder what candidate they’d put up? We should be seeing someone filing soon if they are really trying this.

  30. George Phillies

    Realistically speaking, the Republicans will be much happier in the Constitution Party, especially if they eliminate the overtly antiSemitic portion of their platform

    “Preamble

    The Constitution Party gratefully acknowledges the blessing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as Creator, Preserver and Ruler of the Universe and of these United States. We hereby appeal to Him for mercy, aid, comfort, guidance and the protection of His Providence as we work to restore and preserve these United States.

    This great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions but on a foundation of Christian principles and values. For this very reason peoples of all faiths have been and are afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.

    The goal of the Constitution Party is to restore American jurisprudence to its Biblical foundations and to limit the federal government to its Constitutional boundaries. “

  31. Robert Capozzi

    A, always dangerous to use anecdotal evidence.

    But, sure, it’s very difficult to be “active” when constrained by a near-absolutist, unworkable construct like the NAP.

  32. Andy

    “George Phillies
    March 3, 2016 at 20:38

    Realistically speaking, the Republicans will be much happier in the Constitution Party, especially if they eliminate the overtly antiSemitic portion of their platform.”

    Which parts of the Constitution Party’s platform are overtly anti-Semitic? I have read the Constitution Party’s platform before and I do not recall anything anti-Semitic in it.

    I know that two or three time Constitution Party candidate for President, Howard Phillips, was actually born Jewish but converted to Christianity later in life.

  33. Andy

    “Robert Capozzi
    March 3, 2016 at 20:44

    A, always dangerous to use anecdotal evidence.”

    I talk to lots of people, both in person and online. Since my anecdotal evidence comes from talking to thousands of people, maybe I should call it a survey.

  34. Stewart Flood

    Can the Constitution Party get 50 state ballot access this year? Isn’t it a bit late to start?

  35. Andy

    “Stewart Flood
    March 3, 2016 at 20:54

    Can the Constitution Party get 50 state ballot access this year? Isn’t it a bit late to start?”

    I don’t know if they can get 50 states plus DC this year (I don’t think that the Constitution Party has ever had that), but I have heard that Alaska based Libertarian Party member (at least I think that he’s still an LP member), Scott Kohlhaas, has been raising money for the Constitution Party lately, and they’ve been hiring mercenary petition circulators to get signatures for them in a few states. That’s how they just got on the ballot in Hawaii.

  36. Stewart Flood

    Kohlhaas is still out there? Isn’t he the one (memory may be wrong on this) that skims half the money off the top as his commission?

  37. Richard Winger

    Stewart Flood, the US Supreme Court has ruled that states can’t regulate party organizations. South Carolina government can’t enforce the laws you mentioned.

    On another subject, in 1980 John Anderson didn’t start petitioning until April 24, and he got on in all ballots.

  38. George Phillies

    Andy asks: “Which parts of the Constitution Party’s platform are overtly anti-Semitic? I have read the Constitution Party’s platform before and I do not recall anything anti-Semitic in it. ”

    The part I quoted, in the paragraphs right under my statement that the platform is antisemitic.

    “Preamble
    The Constitution Party gratefully acknowledges the blessing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as Creator, Preserver and Ruler of the Universe and of these United States. We hereby appeal to Him for mercy, aid, comfort, guidance and the protection of His Providence as we work to restore and preserve these United States. “

  39. Andy

    “Stewart Flood
    March 3, 2016 at 21:38

    Kohlhaas is still out there? Isn’t he the one (memory may be wrong on this) that skims half the money off the top as his commission?”

    Yea, he’s still out there, and it goes something like that.

    He was the one who raised the money for the LP of Maine voter registration drive, but then rather than trying to hire any actual Libertarians to work on that voter registration drive, he steered a monopoly contract to a non-libertarian mercenary petition coordinator, which meant that after Kohlhaas took his cut of the money, and the mercenary petition coordinator took his cut, there was not that much left for the people gathering the registrations. This resulted in no actual Libertarians working on the registration drive, and it is what led to the drive dragging on much longer than it would have otherwise (since the mercenaries were not very good at getting the registrations, or very motivated to do it), and it is why they turned in a bunch of registrations at the last minute, which meant that the election officials could not process them all in time (and I heard that a bunch of them got rejected, but I think that they still MIGHT have enough valid ones to be on the ballot if they had been processed in time), which is why the LP does not have ballot status in Maine right now and is why they are having to spend money on a court case to try to get ballot access, a case which they may or may not win, and which would not have been necessary had they just hired a few actual Libertarians to work on the registration drive instead of farming it out to non-libertarian mercenaries.

    Anyway, since Kohlhaas has not been doing much with the LP in recent years, I’ve heard that he’s declared himself to be a “mercenary” and he’s since worked on several anti-liberty ballot initiatives, like increasing the minimum wage in Alaska for one example, and like I said above, I’ve heard that he’s been working with the Constitution Party as well.

  40. Andy

    George Phillies said: ““Preamble
    The Constitution Party gratefully acknowledges the blessing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as Creator, Preserver and Ruler of the Universe and of these United States. We hereby appeal to Him for mercy, aid, comfort, guidance and the protection of His Providence as we work to restore and preserve these United States. “

    This is no more anti-Semitic than it is something that could be construed to alienate anyone who is not a Christian, be they an atheist, an agnostic, a Muslim, a Scientologist, a Buddhist, etc…

    So again I ask, what part of their platform is explicitly anti-Semitic?

  41. Stewart Flood

    Richard,

    We tried to have primaries — as allowed under state election law. They said we had to vote by 3/4 in convention to have a primary and we did. We filed candidates, and they refused to put them on the ballot. We sued. The SC State Supreme Court ruled that, even though we were legally permitted primaries, the Election Commission should continue to deny us and in fact they DIRECTED them to continue to violate the law.

    But I’m not sure why we would even want the organization laws overturned. They are actually our best protection against a hostile takeover. We have full ballot access, for simply following their rules and organizing all counties in a month of our choice, within a 15 month window of each election cycle, and filing at least one state-wide candidate every two election cycles. What is wrong with that requirement?

    The other rules I mentioned, including membership in the party for six months prior to being eligible to run for an internal party office, are OUR rules in OUR ByLaws. They are not in state law.

  42. Stewart Flood

    We’ve had more inquires to the SCLP this week from people wanting to organize counties (not really important right now) and wanting to run for office than we had in the last several years combined.

    The “independent” voters are waking up, scared by Trump. Republicans that were really RINOS (Republicans in Name Only), and who lean significantly libertarian are waking up, scared by Trump. But I think some of the people coming over are doing it to try to change us into what they believe and not what libertarians believe, and we’ll be as careful as we can to not let them get in positions within the party.

    I’m sure other states will face this as well, but our biggest safety valve is that we chose to have our convention in November. Our delegates to the national convention are already chosen, so there’s no way to take over our state party this cycle — which is the subject we’re discussing.

    I hope that all the other state parties avoid takeovers, and I also hope that the people coming to us now are predominantly people who really want to become libertarians and not people trying to turn the LP into something it is not.

  43. steve m

    well has there been a spike in new people paying the “poll tax” i mean membership dues to the LNC?

  44. George Phillies

    Andy,

    “This is no more anti-Semitic than it is something that could be construed to alienate anyone who is not a Christian, be they an atheist, an agnostic, a Muslim, a Scientologist, a Buddhist, etc… ”

    Denying the validity of Judaism is indubitably antiSemitic. I realize this point is beyond you. It’s also Islamophobic et tedious cetera. I realize this point is beyond you.

    Thank you for reminding me why I would not want you petitioning for my state party. I do not want petitioners who do not support our platform plank opposing bigotry.

    Phillies

  45. George Phillies

    Indeed, when the CP adopted that platform, there was opposition on the grounds that the platform would drive away even highly orthodox Jews.

    On the other hand, viewers may have enjoyed the Republican Party and Fox news collaborating on a two-hour session advertising for our party, the Green Party, and even the Constitution Party.

  46. Andy

    George, I never said that I agree with this statement from the Constitution Party. I am not even religious myself, so I do not agree with them here.

    I just questioned how they said anything that was explicitly anti_Semetic.

    Once again, former Constitution Party candidate for President, Howard Phillips, was born and raised Jewish, and converted to Christianity as an adult. Are you suggesting that Howard Phillips hated himself and his family?

    Your comment about ballot access was quite fooliah, especially given that most petition circulators are not remotely libertarian. I have already done LP petitioning in Maasachusetts, and if not for me there is a very good chance that Joe Kennedy would not have qualified for the ballot for that special election in 2012.

  47. Michael H. Wilson

    If another party comes in and takes over that won’t stop me and anyone else from promoting the ideas on our won. I have a computer and can sit here and putt out news releases all week long write letters to the editor and just annoy the hell out of the establishment. However it would be nice to work with a group of a few thousands. Whatever happens, just happens.

  48. Caryn Ann Harlos Post author

    wow, this prompted good discussion

    I think the original article is definitely out there, but not entirely

    There are a lot of actual libertarians waiting to be brought in… and then there are just disgruntled republicans

    There is a difference

    Being unhappy with the Republicans is not the same as being a libertarian

  49. Andy

    “special election in 2012.”

    It was actually a special election in 2010 when Joe Kennedy ran for Senate.

  50. Shivany Lane

    And I may as well put my opinion in here for what it is worth.

    I have many friends and acquaintances who if they were honest with themselves they would realize that they do hold many of the Libertarian values, yet most of them are also liberal and progressive.

    At my last company we were bullied into not talking politics unless we were well out of earshot of the VP of IT/Operations. He was and still is an Oklahoma bigoted republican. He would rather move back there because apparently the gun laws in California are too rigid for him, though he is free to own as many guns as he can afford and he has more ammo stacked in his garage than a normal person would use. What he is upset about is that we have stricter rules for being able to carry a weapon. Oh yeah and when you target shoot at the range, the paper target cant be the outline of a person. It can be anything else, just not a human. I asked him once how many humans does he reckon on shooting that he would need to practice for it. Yeah he didn’t laugh either.

    The Republicans donor class don’t have to hijack a third party’s access. They poured over 130 million dollars into Jeb’s campaign which went South pretty quick. The Koch Brothers alone could fund ballot access for their own party. They even have enough employees they can make sign circulate the petitions in probably every state. If you add in Adelson, the Kingmaker, then nothing can stop you.

    I don’t know what Trump’s end game is. Maybe he really does want to be President. I think it is all theater to him but that is just my opinion.

    About the visits to the main page, I would credit the poll more than anything else. You don’t have to be a dues paying member of the party to Vote and we published the poll at least once on social media. John McAfee has a large following even if some of them are unwilling to click that “follow” button.

    I have had some issues both personally and professionally because of my association with John. In a perfect world it should be no big deal and no one else’s business.

    If there was a litmus test for identifying yourself as a Libertarian, how many of you would pass?
    Big ‘L’, little ‘l’, rich ‘l’, poor ‘l’, depressed ‘l’,unemployed ‘l’? The last 3 are me.

    The difference is, I know what powers the President does and does not have. The President can’t abolish the IRS. The President can’t change tax laws. He really can’t do too much when it comes to money unless he has the cooperation of the Speaker of the House. That alone should have you all wanting John McAfee to win the nomination. I can count on one hand the people who John McAfee can not get to cooperate with him. Most people get along with him, rich and poor, black and white and all the wonderful colors in between. Google some of the videos of him interacting at Defcon and then at a conference of CIOs where he is the keynote speaker. OK now you made me get all soap-boxy again….. Shivany turns around too embarrassed to continue and mumbles, just do some research and see who he really is.

  51. Bondurant

    I wouldn’t be concerned unless Mitt Romney suddenly decides to join the LP. If the GOP wanted to co-opt the LP to run against Trump they would have to enter a very well known commodity into the field in Orlando. A Bob Barr or W.A.R. wouldn’t cut the mustard.

  52. Root's Teeth Are Awesome

    George Phillies: Denying the validity of Judaism is indubitably antiSemitic.

    Your use of the word validity is vague. When you say validity, do you mean truth? As in Denying the truth of Judaism is indubitably antiSemitic.

    But most religions deny the truth of other religions. And atheists deny the truth of all religions. Is atheism “indubitably antiSemitic”?

    Yes, Christianity denies the truth of Judaism in regard to many of its tenets, mostly those related to Jesus. But the reverse is also true. Judaism denies the truth of Christianity in many of its tenets.

    So, is Christianity “anti-Semitic” because it denies the truth of Judaism? And if so, is not Judaism “anti-Christian” for denying the truth of Christianity? Is one worse than the other?

    Is it immoral for Christianity to deny the truth of Judaism, yet moral for Judaism to deny the truth of Christianity?

  53. langa

    I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for a coherent answer from Phillies. His strong suit is physics — not logic.

  54. steve m

    God is anti-semetic for telling this particular group of people that their spot on earth is some 8000 sq miles of desert land sandwiched between two major military civilizations that frequently war with each other. Not to mention there within are no deposits of oil!

  55. steve m

    when we talk religion and politics there are no coherent answers from anybody

  56. Root's Teeth Are Awesome

    Steve M, my post wasn’t about religion, but about logic.

    I observed that if Christianity says Jesus, and Judaism says Not-Jesus, then they mutually disagree with each other. And so it’s illogical — and unfair — to accuse Christianity of bigotry, but not Judaism. Either both are bigoted, or neither is.

    What I said about these two religions could as easily apply to two political groups, or two philosophies, or two people. If their disagreement is mutual, it’s dishonest to accuse one side of bigotry for disagreeing, but not the other side.

    Yet people are especially sensitive about expressing any criticism about Judaism. Few care if they’re called anti-Christian (or anti-atheist, or anti-Muslim), but accusations of anti-Semitism carry a greater sting. This places an unfair burden on Christians whenever debating theology with Jews. Jews can criticize Christian theology with passion and force and wit, whereas Christians must tread on eggshells, lacing every disagreement with fulsome praise of Judaism, lest a simple, honest disagreement be condemned as anti-Semitism.

  57. Robert Capozzi

    rtaa, I dunno. Christianity incorporates the Torah, but Judaism doesn’t not incorporate the NT.

    Political philosophies are not 100% mutually exclusive, either. Arguably, anarcho-NAPsterism may be one of the few that is the exception.

  58. Steven R Linnabary

    Does anybody know if RNC rules require a state gop to list the official POTUS candidate on their state ballots?
    Democrats had this problem in ’68 & ’48 where various state parties listed a different candidate than the officially nominated candidate.

    PEACE

  59. Thomas L. Knapp

    Steve,

    That’s not the problem the Democrats had, nor would it have anything to do with “RNC rules” if repeated on the Republican side.

    The problem the Democrats had was that several state Democratic Parties split off and formed a new party, the States Rights Democratic Party aka the Dixiecrats. The candidate on the Democratic ballot line in those states was indeed the “officially nominated” candidate of that new party, and of the long-existing state Democratic Parties that had broken off relations with the Democratic National Committee in favor of another affiliation mechanism.

    This has also happened at least once in the LP’s history, when the LNC disaffiliated the Arizona LP and the Libertarian ticket in Arizona for 2000 was Smith/Suprynowicz instead of Browne/Olivier.

    Yes, state GOPs could decide to break off and choose their own nominee or nominees. And if they did so, the RNC’s rules wouldn’t have anything to do with it, because those state GOPs would no longer be RNC affiliates. Like the other traditional electoral political parties, the Republicans are organized at the state level and their national committee is an affiliation nexus, not a central ruling authority.

  60. Robert Capozzi

    tk, that would be a schism I’d like to see. What are the odds of that happening, in your estimation?

  61. Thomas L. Knapp

    Bob,

    I just don’t see it happening.

    There have been major party splits before, with effects ranging from the ineffectual (the Dixiecrats, the Silver Republicans) to the short-term disastrous (the Democrats in 1860, the Republicans in 1912).

    But the electoral math has become so routinely tight in recent years that a real major party split would probably mean the end of the major party in question.

    Maybe I’m over-estimating the survival instincts of those parties, though.

    I’d put a lot more weight on the opinion of Darcy Richardson and/or Richard Winger than on my own opinion when it comes to this, though.

  62. Nicholas Sarwark

    The Oklahoma March 1 petition deadline for a new party petition is almost certainly unconstitutional.

    So they’d have to fund a >$100K petition drive AND file and win a Federal lawsuit. If the Constitution Party has those kind of resources, they’ve certainly kept them secret.

  63. Andy

    The deadline to place an independent candidate for President on the ballot in Oklahoma is not until July, so the Constitution Party could theoretically do that, but the chances of them successfully pulling that off are slim to none.

  64. Andy

    I believe that at this point the Constitution Party would have to spend a lot more than $100,000 to get their presidential ticket on the ballot in Oklahoma. Libertarians

  65. George Phillies

    If there is a Republican takeover, $100,000 is a drop in the bucket. Litigating is a drop in the bucket. Politely asking the Republicans of the OK state legislature “We’re the House majority; how would you like a tariff propping the price of oil up to $40, just like the one in China” the quo being September 1 and 1000o signatures comes to mind.

  66. Root's Teeth Are Awesome

    Robert Capozzi: rtaa, I dunno. Christianity incorporates the Torah, but Judaism doesn’t not incorporate the NT.

    What are you talking about? What do you “dunno”?

    Your reply has nothing — absolutely nothing — to do with anything I said. Your reply doesn’t relate to my posts in any way.

    You’re not agreeing with me. Not disagreeing with me. Not addressing anything I said.

  67. Root's Teeth Are Awesome

    I’ll try and keep it simple for you, Capozzi.

    Christians believe Jews are wrong about Jesus.

    Jews believe Christians are wrong about Jesus.

    A mutual disagreement on a crucial point. (Doesn’t matter if both Christians and Jews agree on other matters, such as the Torah or that the sky is blue.)

    Phillies suggests that Christians are bigoted because they deny the “validity” (i.e., the truth) about Judaism.

    Yet Phillies seems not to consider Jews bigoted for denying the validity (i.e., the truth) about Christianity.

    I accuse Phillies of applying a double standard, for which there is no logical basis.

    That is the conversation so far. Your post does not in any way relate to this conversation.

  68. George Phillies

    Root’s Teeth: I have not expressed an opinion on the topic you are whining about, which is not relevant to your position.. I am saying that the Constitution Party has expressed a particular stand, which points in one direction. Vast numbers of Christians would say that their stand is not the Christian stand.

  69. Root's Teeth Are Awesome

    George, I quoted you. Your words.

    George Phillies: “Denying the validity of Judaism is indubitably antiSemitic.”

    Then I responded to your words.

  70. Caryn Ann Harlos Post author

    LOLOLOL the Petersen campaign is using this article to try and claim he has been a Libertarian longer than other candidates so he is going to fight this takeover.

    Yet, at the Biloxi debate we heard this:

    “Petersen says how great he is. Worked with Napolitiano. Focused on getting 5% vote. Will build coalition of conseratives of National Review, Reaganites”

    Yet five months before declaring for the LP candidacy we have this:

    Yet one month or so before declaring for the LP candidacy we have this- hear him in his own words raising money for a the Purple PAC.

    In light of this picture and his support… how accurate is what he intended readers of LP News to believe when he said he “never joined another party” since 2008?

    In the years leading up we have this:

    ?I wanted the Tea Party to win. I believed that a new form of Buckley?s fusionism could emerge between social conservatives and libertarians. Together we could crush the big government conservatives, and a libertarian might be elected. Men like Rand Paul gave me hope, and I was happy to see that true conservatives like Ted Cruz and Mike Lee were also elected.?

    Also in those years of his podcast and site he was notable in that he functionally site essay definition writers website usa go here pharmacys in usa that sell cialis http://mce.csail.mit.edu/institute/help-in-making-a-thesis-statement/21/ http://pejepscothistorical.org/education/free-examples-of-term-paper-on-famous-criminologist/03/ professional application letter editing services ca https://creativephl.org/pills/mountainmwest-apothecary/33/ https://groups.csail.mit.edu/cb/paircoil2/?pdf=rural-insurance-in-india-essays http://snowdropfoundation.org/papers/help-with-writing-essays/12/ can i buy viagra in japan custom speech ghostwriting service essay development which topic is narrow enough to address in a cause-and-effect essay? https://vaccinateindiana.org/side-effects-from-viagra-4996/ http://bookclubofwashington.org/books/buy-a-persuasive-essay/14/ best ed supplements what does it mean to be american essay lisonpril viagra go here follow viagra suppliers database can i buy a college essay https://pittsburghgreenstory.com/newyork/baby-thesis-sample-title/15/ 4 paragraph essay go site essay on mother in french language great case study examples get link creative writing grade 8 help with professional phd essay on presidential elections live essay help never promoted the interests of the LP and argued for voting against Sarvis if the Republican wooed them.

    Methinks the gentleman from Missouri is torturing the truth a little bit. Managing to not actively revoke one?s membership does not a Libertarian make in anything other than the most technical sense (and I do not consider the LP to be the end-all and be-all of libertarianism writ large… but the claim here is to be a LIBERTARIAN PARTY LIBERTARIAN)).

    And he repudiates the Party?s Statement of Principles. There?s that too.

  71. Root's Teeth Are Awesome

    George, I quoted you. Your words.

    George Phillies: “Denying the validity of Judaism is indubitably antiSemitic.”

    Then I responded to your words.

  72. Andy

    George made the claim that the Constitution Party is anti-Semitic.

    Howard Phillips, three time Constitution Party candidate for President, was born and raised Jewish, but converted to Christianity as an adult.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Phillips_%28politician%29

    “Phillips was born into a Jewish family in Boston in 1941,[2] Phillips converted to evangelical Christianity as an adult in the 1970s[3][4][5] and has been associated with Christian Reconstructionism.[6]”

    So according to George Phillies, are we to believe that Howard Phillips hated Jews, which would mean that he hated himself (or at least hated himself until he converted to Christianity as an adult) and his family?

    Like I said above, I do not agree with the religious statement at the beginning of the Constitution Party’s platform (I don’t care for the mixing of religion and politics), but having said this, the statement is no more “anti-Semitic” than it is anti-Buddhist or anti-atheist or anti-agnostic.

    I have got to wonder if George threw in the “anti-Semitic” claim because it is a popular “politically correct” buzzword.

    Why not say that they are anti-Buddhist or anti-atheist or ant-some other religion or view of religion?

  73. Andy

    It would cost way more than $100,000 to get a presidential ticket on the ballot in Oklahoma at this point. If there is big money behind it could be done, I am just indicating that a lot more than $100,000 would need to be spent.

  74. George Phillies

    Dear Andy,

    Your point was raised by opponents of their preamble, at the time their preamble was adopted. The preamble also excludes socially conservative Ultraorthodox Jews from the Party, as was also noted at the time.

    The preamble was still adopted.

    George

  75. Election Addict

    Odd that the CP’s gripe at the time was only that it excluded conservative Jews.

    How about the irreligious, can’t they be constitutionalist?

    As for this article, maybe there is interest because it is a presidential election year? In 2012 these new followers were probably sticking with Ron Paul until the Republican convention that year. Now there is no one like that. Just throwing something out there.

  76. Thomas L. Knapp

    Election Addict,

    Yes, the irreligious can be constitutionalists. But the Constitution Party isn’t constitutionalist. They’re a sectarian theocratic party.

  77. Andy

    “George Phillies
    March 4, 2016 at 14:05

    Dear Andy,

    Your point was raised by opponents of their preamble, at the time their preamble was adopted. The preamble also excludes socially conservative Ultraorthodox Jews from the Party, as was also noted at the time.

    The preamble was still adopted.

    George”

    George, I am not and have never been a member of the Constitution Party, but if I were, I would lobby to remove that religious statement from their platform.

    I do believe in religious freedom, but I don’t care for mixing religion with politics.

  78. Andy

    “Thomas L. Knapp
    March 4, 2016 at 16:35

    Election Addict,

    Yes, the irreligious can be constitutionalists. But the Constitution Party isn’t constitutionalist. They’re a sectarian theocratic party.”

    I’d bet that the Constitution Party would be more successful if they dropped a lot of the religious stuff. They could still be anti-abortion, but drop stuff like that religious preamble to their platform.

    I’ve talked to quite a few people in the Constitution Party, and I generally enjoy talking to them. There is a more libertarian leaning wing in the Constitution Party, as some of the Constitution Party folk I’ve spoken to are practically libertarians, and the primary reason that they are not in the Libertarian Party is because the Libertarian Party does not take a strong anti-abortion stance.

    There are of course other people in the Constitution Party who are less libertarian as well.

    I agree with the Constitution Party on a lot of issues, but I have areas where I disagree with them as well (like I favor legalized gambling, and I think that porn and prostitution should be legal so long as they are done with consenting adults, and I’m not a fan of tariffs, as I prefer low tariffs, or ideally, no tariffs).

    I do agree that if government is to exist, it ought to be limited by a Constitution. Now do I always agree with the way that everyone in the Constitution Party interprets the Constitution? No, but even so, the Constitution Party is generally better than most other parties out there except for the Libertarian Party.

    Having said this, I see “restoring the Constitution” or a small, limited government as more of a fall back position, as I’m really an anarcho-capitalist / voluntaryist at heart.

  79. Andy

    Shivany Lane said: “At my last company we were bullied into not talking politics unless we were well out of earshot of the VP of IT/Operations. He was and still is an Oklahoma bigoted republican. He would rather move back there because apparently the gun laws in California are too rigid for him, though he is free to own as many guns as he can afford and he has more ammo stacked in his garage than a normal person would use. What he is upset about is that we have stricter rules for being able to carry a weapon. Oh yeah and when you target shoot at the range, the paper target cant be the outline of a person. It can be anything else, just not a human. I asked him once how many humans does he reckon on shooting that he would need to practice for it. Yeah he didn’t laugh either.”

    I don’t know this Republican guy you are talking about here, and he may well be bad on multiple issues, but your example of his view on gun rights is not one of them. Just in case you did not get this memo, Libertarians are very strong supporters of the right to keep and bear arms. We have people in our party who would fit the stereotype of the “gun nut” as they own and carry guns, and some of them stockpile weapons and ammo.

    You mentioned this guy wanting to move out of California because of its gun laws. Michael Badnarik, the 2004 Libertarian Party candidate for President, actually did this, as he moved from California to Texas because of the difference in gun laws (he has since moved back to Indiana, where he is from originally).

  80. Root's Teeth Are Awesome

    Thomas L. Knapp: the Constitution Party isn’t constitutionalist. They’re a sectarian theocratic party.

    The CP says they support religious liberty for all.

    Israel makes the same claim of religious liberty for all, yet it’s also an explicitly Jewish state — with many state policies that privilege the Jewish people and Jewish religion above others.

    Would you say that Israel is a theocratic state?

    I ask, because some people scream “theocracy” at the slightest whiff of Christianity in any government entity (e.g., a cross on the Los Angeles County seal, a Christmas tree in a govt building) — yet many of these same people insist that Israel is a secular democracy with equal religious liberty for all, just like the U.S., and is therefore deserving of our support.

    Cross on a county seal = Theocracy

    Star of David on a flag = Secular Democracy with Equal Liberty for All

    Double standard, indeed.

  81. jim

    Andy: You said, “I have got to wonder if George threw in the “anti-Semitic” claim because it is a popular “politically correct” buzzword. Why not say that they are anti-Buddhist or anti-atheist or ant-some other religion or view of religion?”

    You and Root’s Teeth are quite correct. “Anti-Semitic” is clearly a PC buzzword. Not quite so over-used as “racist”. I think it’s sad that some people think that libertarianism and political-correctness can be usefully combined. In every criticizable aspect of PC I can think of, it involves attempts to use government power to manipulate others, which is virtually the antithesis of individual freedom.

    (Curiously, “Semitic” actually refers both to Jews and Arabs, I believe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people But most people don’t realize that.)

  82. Election Addict

    The question is not directed to me, but I think things are more clear than that, and more specific to this case.

    They can have that in their platform, it’s not like it’s calling for violence or even really offensive (unlike the present actions of a state privileging one religion above others). But if they had some understanding of how other people think then they would realize it is not very appealing to people with other beliefs, and so sectarian is an apt word. Imagine a webpage with the words “Jesus Christ is your savior” at the top of the page. That sounds inviting specifically to christians (or some of them) and turns away others, and that is fine. May as well call it the Christian Party. But that sounds awful because religion and politics don’t usually mix well. The implications of that last statement would give people the idea that it is theocratic, or could easily attract those sorts of people.

    If that’s not obvious to the writers of the platform then they are clouded by their beliefs, and I’m glad they told me so in their platform so I can stay away from them.

  83. Thomas L. Knapp

    RTAT,

    Israel is certainly a partially theocratic state, although the theocratic elements tend to be of secondary importance to the ethnic ones (basically the state throws various bones to various Jewish religious sects to keep them on board with the rest of the program). The analogy to South Africa is not, to my mind, entirely unfair.

    The Constitution Party is more openly and avowedly theocratic. Pretty much along the lines of Islamism. Sure, some Islamists are FORMALLY in favor of religious freedom, as long as Muslims run the government, and the laws conform to Islam in every respect, and non-Muslims don’t get too uppity or openly proselytize to convert Muslims to another religion.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *