BREAKING: Justin Amash Withdraws from 2020 Presidential Race

Libertarian Congressman Justin Amash has withdrawn from the 2020 presidential race. He was believed to be the frontrunner for the Libertarian Party’s 2020 presidential nomination.

He tweets:

Thanks for your support as I’ve been exploring a run for president as the potential nominee of the Libertarian Party.

I’ve spent nearly three weeks assessing the race, appearing in media, talking to delegates and donors, watching the Libertarian Party’s convention plan unfold, and gathering feedback from family, friends, and other advisers.

After much reflection, I’ve concluded that circumstances don’t lend themselves to my success as a candidate for president this year, and therefore I will not be a candidate.

This was a difficult decision for me, especially having seen grassroots supporters put so much effort into this campaign. It’s been humbling and awesome.

I continue to believe that a candidate from outside the old parties, offering a vision of government grounded in liberty and equality, can break through in the right environment. But this environment presents extraordinary challenges.

Polarization is near an all-time high. Electoral success requires an audience willing to consider alternatives, but both social media and traditional media are dominated by voices strongly averse to the political risks posed by a viable third candidate.

Today, most Americans are understandably more interested in what life will look like tomorrow than they are in broader policy debates, and news coverage has reflected those priorities. At the same time, fundraising challenges posed by an idled economy will hinder advertising.

The Libertarian Party’s national committee members and delegates have worked diligently to organize the national convention,…

but lingering uncertainty regarding ratification of online voting, the feasibility of 50-state ballot access and related legal challenges, and unity after the nomination have also weighed heavily on me. We must address these issues as a party to ensure we maximize our potential.

I’ve been speaking directly to delegates about this opportunity for only a short time, but these conversations have solidified my belief that the Libertarian Party is well positioned to become a major and consistent contender to win elections at all levels of government.

I remain invested in helping the party realize these possibilities and look forward to the successes ahead.

If you aren’t already a member of the @LPNational, I encourage you to join me in becoming one so we can continue working together toward freedom, peace, and prosperity. With appreciation, Justin

The move leaves Future of Freedom Foundation founder and president Jacob Hornberger, 1996 vice presidential nominee Jo Jorgensen, and 2012 vice presidential nominee Judge Jim Gray as favorites to win the nomination at the national convention this coming weekend.

74 thoughts on “BREAKING: Justin Amash Withdraws from 2020 Presidential Race

  1. Anthony Dlugos

    I’d advise everyone to avoid the 800-foot tsunami that is about to wash over anyone on the LNC at this time.

    Run for the hills.

  2. George Dance

    Oh, shit. Amash was the best possible candidate. Now who is there?

    Jorgensen’s nice, but not at the top of a ticket; she reminds me of the woman in Michigan. Gray’s OK, but an old white guy won’t exactly stand out. Hornberger’s campaign message is as ridiculous as Supreme’s.

    John Monds? Is he even in the debates?

    NF – “What about his re-election to the House?”

    Amash suspended that campaign in February. It’s still raising $$, but he said in the LPKY debate he wasn’t going back to it.

    AD – “Run for the hills.”

    The Bumper Bros are coming.

  3. Bondurant

    This is a terrible move by Amash. Surely, he knew about possible ballot access limitations prior. If he did not then he was massively unprepared. I’ve stated in the past he should have focused on ’24 due to ballot access shortcomings among other reasons. Stay the course if you’re going to wade into these waters. Libertarians will remember this in ’24. So much respect flushed down the drain.

  4. Anthony Dlugos

    Gray/Sharpe is my preferred choice.

    If there is anyone in the history of the party who has earned his/her shot at the big time, due to INDEFATIGABLE effort for the cause and the LP, Larry Sharpe is it. I am fully behind that ticket now

  5. robert capozzi

    Supreme/Exotic, leading to a disintegration of the Stalinist Bylaws and reconstitution as a real party.

  6. paulie

    Now who is there?

    Vermin, Behrman, Jorgensen, Monds in that order for me.

    John Monds? Is he even in the debates?

    Some, yeah.

  7. paulie

    Jorgensen’s nice, but not at the top of a ticket

    Why not? Dasbach and Hauptmann are competent. She has a good team and a good strategy.

    she reminds me of the woman in Michigan.

    Gretchen Whitmer? How? Did she order a far-reaching statewide shutdown while I wasn’t looking?

  8. paulie

    This is a terrible move by Amash.

    I think he made the right decision.

    I’ve stated in the past he should have focused on ’24 due to ballot access shortcomings among other reasons.

    Agreed. That’s still true.

    Libertarians will remember this in ’24.

    I think what will matter more in ’24 is what he does between now and then. He jumped into this one too late and the external circumstances are not good. Even the convention is a mess. He made the right decision.

  9. paulie

    I hope Justin Amash will continued to be listed in the Congressional Directory as a Libertarian.

    So do I. He has said he intends to stick with the party and help downballot candidates.

  10. Anthony Dlugos

    If she would quit dodging simple questions about reproductive rights and came out in favor of Roe, I’d Flo WIth Jo, no doubt.

  11. Fred Stein

    The real reason is probably he knew he couldn’t win the nomination. I t would have been a personal
    embarrassment to him. I saw him on TV the hosts were surprised that he wasn’t Libertarian enough. He is a Conservative…. This presidential year won’t matter much unfortunately due to the virus restricting ballot access. Save your money Libertarians , for the Race of the Decade. The governor’s election in New Jersey in 2021. Stay tuned
    Governor Freddy – he’s working on commission

  12. Anthony Dlugos

    I don’t know about it being the “real reason…” because I thought he would have won the nomination without too much difficulty, but I did post on Facebook not that long ago that I think he was surprised at how much resistance he was getting.

    paulie pointed out in one of the other threads that taking 6 ballots after the LPKY debate was not a good sign.

    I had an interesting brief DM exchange with his delegate whip in my area when that whip asked me what I thought about Amash’s chances. I thought he was somewhat candid about the resistance Amash was getting.

    It might have been a factor. Lord knows LP nominating conventions can throw some curveballs. Did he even want to risk it? Why? He’s 40 and it was going to be a sh*tty year for 3rd parties. Why bother and take the chance of losing the nomination, which would be a huge embarrassment?

  13. paulie

    I thought he would have won the nomination without too much difficulty

    I think he would have won. But, the LPKY poll of 270-something delegates reveals it would have been with quite a bit of difficulty. Then there’s the uncertainty of whether an in-person July convention might fail to ratify that vote and pick someone else. Or switch VPs on him.

    paulie pointed out in one of the other threads that taking 6 ballots after the LPKY debate was not a good sign.

    LPKY was behind both but it wasn’t the same thing. This was an actual poll of delegates only over the phone, not one of those self-selecting internet things. And they reached over a quarter of the delegates. That’s a very good sized sample for polling.

    Did he even want to risk it? Why? He’s 40 and it was going to be a sh*tty year for 3rd parties. Why bother and take the chance of losing the nomination, which would be a huge embarrassment?

    Exactly.

  14. Anthony Dlugos

    thanks for the clarification.

    yea, reaching a quarter of the delegates and getting resistance…not a good sign.

  15. Thomas Knapp

    Amash handled his withdrawal in a very graceful manner. And it’s refreshing to see that an exploratory committee turned out to actually be an exploratory committee for once.

    I’ll be interested to see if this goes back to being a Hornberger/Supreme race, or if Jorgenson may have pulled into real contention at this point.

  16. Thomas Knapp

    “Whats the fallout for the LNC? are they all replaced?”

    A couple of the officers and at-larges who are seeking re-election may get sent home for a term or two.

    It’s unlikely that any regional reps will be replaced unless they are voluntarily retiring.

    And anyone running for a seat on a “we lost Justin Amash because you were poopooheads” platform will get single or low double digit vote percentages.

  17. paulie

    Amash handled his withdrawal in a very graceful manner.

    Agreed.

    And it’s refreshing to see that an exploratory committee turned out to actually be an exploratory committee for once.

    Also agreed.

    I’ll be interested to see if this goes back to being a Hornberger/Supreme race, or if Jorgenson may have pulled into real contention at this point.

    I agree that Hornberger and Supreme are among the leading candidates, but even as someone favorably disposed towards Supreme I’m not optimistic there. Jorgensen does indeed seem to be a contender, more than I realized, based on LPKY results. I think Gray is too; former Weld/Chafee/Amash supporters seem to like him. As weird as this one is getting towards the end I would not rule out brand new candidates, or returning ones who dropped out earlier, either.

  18. Anthony Dlugos

    Don’t get Jorgensen.

    She’d have my vote if she just made a clearer statement about reproductive rights.

    A pro-choice woman running against two sexually assaulting cretinous old men? That MIGHT be worth a few million votes.

  19. Anthony Dlugos

    nope, but libertarianism has a broader appeal than the green philosophy does.

    otoh, I did capitalize MIGHT there. I think the chances of any serious vote total would be close to non-existent…much less than even Amash…but let’s just say I would love to have a pro-choice woman out their making a roughly libertarian argument.

  20. robert capozzi

    JA: lingering uncertainty regarding ratification of online voting, the feasibility of 50-state ballot access and related legal challenges, and unity after the nomination have also weighed heavily on me.

    me: I’d not be surprised that he didn’t realize that state LPs can choose to not put the national prez on their state ballot. And he’s mostly had to dealt with sort of contentiousness and borderline intra-LP sociopathy that he was having to deal with.

  21. Anthony Dlugos

    RC,

    there are people on Facebook saying he was concerned an online nominating process could be attacked by the dinosaur parties as invalid, and he could get tossed off the ballot in multiple states.

    although I can imagine the sociopathy played a part in his decision.

    Still, I gotta say again that I have to think biggest reason is that this was going to be a terrible year for 3rd parties because of the combination of the virus and the likely referendum on Trump in November.

    It just made no sense for a 40-year old to make this one of the few bites at the White House apple that he was gonna get.

  22. Chris Powell

    Hornberger and Supreme both have high unfavorability. As the LPKY delegate poll showed, Jorgensen picked up second, third, and fourth choice votes more than anybody else, including Amash. One of the reasons for that is that she doesn’t deliberately antagonize people, such as by giving nuanced answers on reproductive rights.

  23. Root's Teeth Are Awesome

    ATBAFT: Time to see what a Libertarian woman can do at the top of the ticket!!

    Why? Many women have run at the top of third party tickets, most recently Jill Stein. The novelty has worn off. Merely being a woman isn’t enough to attract public attention any more, and they haven’t proven themselves to be any superior or different from the men.

    Who the woman is matters.

    Of course, Robert Milnes still thinks that having a libertarian woman — any libertarian woman — as his running mate is key to his winning the presidency.

  24. SocraticGadfly

    @Bondurat: Agreed.

    His claimed reasons — political polarization at an all time high, and COVID-related issues — were true three weeks ago, and sound as specious as Ventura’s “I will have to quit RT” on the Green sid.e

  25. SocraticGadfly

    Kind o funny, at least on shifting to an online convention, for Greens to appear more organized than Libertarians, too!

  26. Thomas Knapp

    “Particular Outcome X” does not imply “more organized.” It just implies “organized so as to result in particular outcome X.”

  27. Jared

    I’m not surprised the Amash campaign faced pushback from Hornberger in particular and from Libertarians who are weary of newcomers still fresh out of the GOP being handed the nomination because they have political experience and some name recognition. Though I do think Amash handled himself very well and did everything right to address their concerns. I am surprised, however, that the Mises Caucus RP4Life crowd was so hostile to the candidacy of a modest, constitutionalist, Hayek-quoting congressman with a libertarian voting record.

    At this point, I would say Jorgensen is my top pick, but I can’t say I’m enthusiastic about any of the remaining candidates.

  28. Jill Pyeatt

    I think the fact that he came in so late showed he had misgivings about running. I think he did the right thing to bow out, and he did do it at a good time (a full week before the nominating meeting), and in a respectful manner.

    I hadn’t planned to support him this time, but he 4 years he just might be the right candidate for us.

  29. Bondurant

    Amash should have expected push back. If he was expecting a red carpet to be rolled out either he or his team were incredibly ignorant about the LP. I know convention delegates that would otherwise support Amash but coming in weeks before the convention when others were running an entire cycle turned them off. If I were a delegate Amash would not have received my first round vote for that same reason. I say this as someone that likes Amash. Yeah, he handled his bowing out with class but I don’t want to see class bowing out. Stay the course. Take your lumps now. Maybe he can improve his lot during the next cycle but I wouldn’t be shocked if his sudden entry and quick exit leaves a sour taste in the mouth of libertarians for a long time.

    I would like more insight into this decision. I suspect the war chest wasn’t supplied with the funds he was expecting. Big donors are Duopoly acolytes and/or only want to invest in the The Show. They don’t want to fund a grassroots effort. One would think Amash already learned this when his major funders vanished like Dracula in the sunlight when he left the GOP.

    Let the gates open for Vermin Supreme. At the very least he would make an amazing press secretary.

  30. Anthony Dlugos

    agreed entirely, Jill.

    soften his abortion stance and I’m on board.

    assuming he loses his House seat, he’s got 4 years to make the circuit of speaking engagements, cable news network appearances, write a book & op-eds, etc.

    Now no matter who wins in November, he can criticize what the new president is doing, say the things he would have done differently. He won’t be in Congress, so he’s got no party to answer to in that regard. Just swing away. He’s got plenty of time to build a base now.

    Football coaches who go into the announcers’ booth..sometimes they start looking good to other teams, because they are no longer losing games, just giving free advice on t.v.

    That’s what I’d be thinking if I were him.

  31. Donkey Shame

    This year, kids, we’re voting Republican. Drain the swamp and build the wall.

  32. Bondurant

    @ Donkey Shame

    How much of the swamp has been drained during Trump’s first term? The muck hasn’t receded any. It might be funnier than it was previously (I love watching the progressive and media meltdowns) but the Trump administration is still part of the swamp. Your rank-and-file Trump supporter is just lesser of two evil talking points. They know and you know there’s nothing real world to base your claims on. Based on my experience (friends, family and colleagues) most Trump voters weren’t pro-Trump they were just anti-Hillary and are anti-Biden now.

  33. Name Withheld Upon Request

    Trump is TOAST! Biden will step aside for Cuomo and/or Newsom! Heroes of COVID-19 with Whitmer for veep. Brave new world!

  34. Justice Apash

    I wish he would have either decided to run or that he never formed a presidential exploratory committee in the first place. He should have been all-in or all-out. That being said, this will ensure that Justin Amash can devote his energy into his re-election in the House. I am not in the LP however I will lean strongly towards voting for the 2020 ticket if it is Adam Kokesh/McAfee or maybe Jim Gray.

  35. dL

    One of the reasons for that is that she doesn’t deliberately antagonize people, such as by giving nuanced answers on reproductive rights.

    Well, that didn’t work for Weld. His “nuanced” answers on gun rights were viewed by many as a deliberate antagonization.

  36. dL

    Supreme/Exotic, leading to a disintegration of the Stalinist Bylaws

    Capozzi/Milnes, leading to a disintegrating free thread between the two on IPR about who is better positioned to depose said Stalinist bylaws.

  37. Walter White

    “ I am surprised, however, that the Mises Caucus RP4Life crowd was so hostile to the candidacy of a modest, constitutionalist, Hayek-quoting congressman with a libertarian voting record.“

    They don’t like sanity and reasonableness.

  38. Eric Sundwall

    It’s somewhat interesting to see the vilification among factions in the LP. My current approach is “whoever the LP nominee is, plus one on NY”. I’ll collect signatures, but voting is absurd from my personal perspective. Thank goodness signatures (beyond a terse minimum) are not necessary in NY this year. Doubt I could handle a thousand plus effort in this environment. I had to organize the 2008 ballot access in NY for Barr and the unhappiness was palpable, among party members and the public.

    That said, perhaps the most radical and persistent voice in this environment is worth the wasted risk. The polarization among Reds & Blues will be an odd mix of empty forums, online flaming and accusations of this or that when in fact Rome is burning. Very little media time will be given to a bland Libertarian centrist.

    In terms of ANY anti-war message, Howie Hawkins will probably be the best voice, if nominated. Seems like a tertiary issue in the average voters mind and Howie will likely play the evil corporations card and workers rights instead. Kokesh a distant second, for the anti-war effort?

    But the meltdown of government its the deleterious effects on the economy will be the focus for a good candidate. Don’t expect it to catch fire with the average voter stuck between Fox & CNN. Perhaps second quarter earnings, GDP & unemployment figures will pierce the third-party wall? Doubtful.

    Amash wasn’t the worst choice, but his people surely realize that campaigning from his basement isn’t worthwhile. Vermin & Kokesh desire the attention regardless. Gray & Sharpe don’t seem to have lawns so . . . Jorgenson? Why not?

    I’ll be opening the pool and barbie on Memorial Day weekend regardless, not worried about sneaking in to check CSPAN for details on the nominee. It’s harsh to rag on the LP for all the work that people do for it, radical or otherwise. Take it down a notch, breathe and stay sane. Good Luck, Have Fun.

  39. SocraticGadfly

    @Bondurat and @DonkeyShame

    If anything, Trump has done the reverse of good farm practices and built his own new swamps.

  40. George Dance

    “ I am surprised, however, that the Mises Caucus RP4Life crowd was so hostile to the candidacy of a modest, constitutionalist, Hayek-quoting congressman with a libertarian voting record.“

    I’m not. In all but name, the MC is the Rothbard Caucus, and to Rothbardians Hayek was a traitor.

  41. SocraticGadfly

    @NameWithheldUponRequest

    That’s some pretty strong crack you’re smoking.

    Oh, in reality, Cuomo helped contribute to NY State’s crisis.

  42. SocraticGadfly

    @dl Please don’t feed the Milnes beast. He’s already posting at Ballot Access News.

  43. George Dance

    yes, paulie, Gretchen Witmer. I used Trump’s phrase because, as with him, I couldn’t remember her name afterwards – which is part of the problem. I watched her press conference on the demonstrator, and she came across as a generic woman saying generic things; exactly how Jorgensen came across to me.

    I saw Monds last night. I wasn’t impressed, but then, my expectations were way high; I was looking for an Amash substitute as a messenger, and he wasn’t it. Then, it was his first debate that I’ve seen; maybe he just needs more media time.

    Right now I’m ambivalent; Gray has the best message, and while I have doubts about him as messenger, he does have Larry Sharpe. OTOH, we will lose votes and registered members, wiping out years of work, maybe going back to 2004 or even 1984. Why not nominate a “libertarian” Libertarian rather than a “party” Libertarian (bumper or Kokesh), and let him take the blame?

  44. Anthony Dlugos

    “Right now I’m ambivalent; Gray has the best message, and while I have doubts about him as messenger, he does have Larry Sharpe.”

    exactly my feelings.

  45. Losty

    Paulie,

    Not sure this is the right story for it, but…

    Though you and I may agree to disagree this one time re: nota…

    Can you explain to me what the NatCom is doing regarding a motion to… for all intents and purposes… take that 8 hour meeting and say it basically didn’t happen. One or 2 days before a convention that if that passes, won’t happen?

    If the party wants a candidate, aren’t there date requirements to… nominate one?

    And since ballot access in the future is the obvious rationale to run a top of the ticket if the party in convention wishes, to use the vernacular: WTH?

  46. paulie

    I think the fact that he came in so late showed he had misgivings about running. I think he did the right thing to bow out, and he did do it at a good time (a full week before the nominating meeting), and in a respectful manner.

    I hadn’t planned to support him this time, but he 4 years he just might be the right candidate for us.

    Agreed.

  47. paulie

    I wish he would have either decided to run or that he never formed a presidential exploratory committee in the first place.

    It makes sense to test the waters and see what kind of a reaction it gets.

    That being said, this will ensure that Justin Amash can devote his energy into his re-election in the House.

    He previously said he was suspending that. We’ll see if that changes now.

  48. paulie

    Well, that didn’t work for Weld. His “nuanced” answers on gun rights were viewed by many as a deliberate antagonization.

    There’s more unanimity in the party on that issue.

  49. paulie

    Please don’t feed the Milnes beast. He’s already posting at Ballot Access News.

    Unless I missed something he’s still banned here.

  50. paulie

    yes, paulie, Gretchen Witmer. I used Trump’s phrase because, as with him, I couldn’t remember her name afterwards – which is part of the problem.

    I think Trump deliberately calls her that because he’s a pig who has problems with women who don’t bow to his authority. Hopefully you don’t have that issue.

    I watched her press conference on the demonstrator, and she came across as a generic woman saying generic things; exactly how Jorgensen came across to me.

    Funny, neither one of them came across that way to me. They are two very different women with different political philosophies. I don’t see much they have in common. I don’t see Jorgensen as a generic woman any more than I see, say, Judge Gray as a generic man.

    I saw Monds last night. I wasn’t impressed, but then, my expectations were way high; I was looking for an Amash substitute as a messenger, and he wasn’t it.

    I’ve seen him a few times in debates and speeches including in person. I think he does fine, including last night.

    Gray has the best message

    Audience Member #8

    This is for Judge Gray. Just a moment ago, you were talking about your constraint to follow the law, would you agree that jury nullification would be an element that could help change this situation and change it quickly?

    James P. Gray

    Jury nullification is a very harmful concept, and a very harmful idea. I know that a lot of my friends do not agree with that. I will stand on that proposition enormously.

    OK, you and I agree pretty much with regard to the drug issues, and we’re going in the wrong direction, and the laws should be changed, and everything else, but you can use jury nullification in any way you want. You can use it to justify lynching and slavery. You can use it to justify unequal rights for women or anything else. There is no difference.

    If we get into that where we can instruct a jury that they don’t have to follow the law, which, by the way, they do have the ability not to follow the law, they are just not instructed of that ability. There’s a difference there, and that’s a safeguard that I will also stand for, but if we’d instruct the jury that they do not have to follow the law, then we can very easily in our country end up with anarchy. The best way of getting a bad law changed is to enforce it, not to ignore it. And hopefully we, by enforcing, these laws are calling people’s attention to it enough that these harmful laws will be changed. But otherwise, I think this is a very dangerous concept.

    https://www.independent.org/events/transcript.asp?id=16&fbclid=IwAR3jU9KBU2APYJHJmWx5B6ieOF1Lv_O3XH8LRE4k0WEERqwpnHIpse3xXj0

  51. paulie

    we will lose votes and registered members

    I don’t think we will lose registered members. I expect those numbers will keep going up.

    Why not nominate a “libertarian” Libertarian rather than a “party” Libertarian (bumper or Kokesh), and let him take the blame?

    I’m just glad we are not nominating another Republican. I like Supreme, Behrman, Jorgensen or Monds but while the two you mentioned are a bit right wing for me it wouldn’t be the end of the world.

  52. Anthony Dlugos

    no candidate is perfect.

    But jury nullification is like #1322 on the top 10,000 list of pressing concerns for the next president.

    I’m not even sure its relevant for the office, other than the bully pulpit. Even then, candidates have a limited amount of political capital. Any presidents who wastes political capital on that is in dereliction of duty, if you asked me.

  53. paulie

    Can you explain to me what the NatCom is doing regarding a motion to… for all intents and purposes… take that 8 hour meeting and say it basically didn’t happen. One or 2 days before a convention that if that passes, won’t happen?

    Some people didn’t like the outcome and are trying to change it. I don’t think they will succeed but we shall see.

    If the party wants a candidate, aren’t there date requirements to… nominate one?

    July would fall within party rules, as would August. The later it happens the more it hurts ballot access chances.

    And since ballot access in the future is the obvious rationale to run a top of the ticket if the party in convention wishes, to use the vernacular: WTH?

    The people who want a delay think missing a few states is either inevitable or can be overcome with lawsuits, or they don’t think it’s all that important. They are more concerned with media coverage for the convention and the (IMO unlikely, but technically possible) chance that the in person convention would not ratify the ticket chosen in May but would vote to nominate a different one. That concern may have had something to do with Amash choosing not to run.

  54. paulie

    But jury nullification is like #1322 on the top 10,000 list of pressing concerns for the next president.

    It is however relevant to the campaign since it could let a lot of people know about a power they have that could help end the drug war now regardless of who is elected president. It also speaks to a candidate’s overall philosophy. I don’t remember all the particulars but there were a bunch of articles we posted here in the past with some odd views Judge Gray posted. You can find them by putting his name in the search box here.

    I don’t want to discriminate against 70-something white males, but I think there are enough of them running for president already this year. I’d be open to an exceptional one, but I don’t think the Judge is that guy.

    Also, I’m trying to square that answer with what he said in the debate last night, which was much more pro nullification. I don’t see how those answers make sense together.

  55. Anthony Dlugos

    well, we definitely don’t have a perfect candidate this time.

    okay, we never have a perfect candidate, but this year we’re even stepping back from the higher-profile tickets in 2012 and 2016.

    frankly, I’m apt to give Gray/Sharpe a chance if for no other reason than that they both deserve their time in the limelight, Shape specifically.

  56. dL

    Please don’t feed the Milnes beast.

    i dunno, a quarantined free thread between the two Bobs pitting PLAS vs Lessarchy might be quite entertaining death match in our covid-19 times…

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