IAP candidate Janine Hansen in competitive race

Janine Hansen, one of the Independent American Party of Nevada’s candidates for State Senate, is in a two-way race with incumbent Dean Rhodes, as unpopular and moderate Republican. Hansen has been the President of the Nevada Eagle Forum since 1974, and has been a citizen lobbiest for 36 years, as well as a full-time lobbyist for the past 18 years. She is, additionally, the founder, publisher, and editor of the Nevada Families Voter Guides, which have been published every general election since 1988. She is also the Executive Director of the Nevada Committee for Full Statehood, which focuses on restoring Nevada’s lands to Nevada. She has also been chairman of Stop ERA and the Nevada Choose Life Coalition.
She just sent out an email soliciting donations for her campaign,which she claims is winnable.

Dear Friends,

Thank you! I can’t tell you how excited I am about the success I’m having in this campaign! My radio ads started on October 8th in Elko, Winnemucca and Ely—which covers most of the district. I have enclosed the written copy of the radio ads. If you would like to hear the recorded version they are on my website at www.janinehansen.com.
I have raised the unprecedented amount of $15,510.00. I say unprecedented, because for me it is unprecedented. The exceptional response has given me great encouragement! I spent $3,234.00 on radio for this week. That is for 6 spots a day, every day of the week on seven different stations.
I am hoping to expand that to a couple more stations in Elko next week, as well as continue the ads on the original seven stations.
In addition, the Nevada Families Voter Guide is finished. You should be receiving yours in the mail soon. My campaign bought a full-page ad in the Voter Guide. For my campaign we are mailing the Voter Guide out to 22,000 voter households in my eight-county district. They will cost 45.1 cents each to mail, which equals $9,922.00.
Previously, I spent $1,976 for printing, bulk mail permit, signs for the parade, mailing labels and lots of other things for my campaign. So you can see that’s $15,132.00 I have spent on my campaign or allocated thus far.
I know that you have already sacrificed to help my campaign but, if possible, I would really appreciate another contribution from you. Any more money I raise will be spent on radio or direct mail that’s specific to my campaign. For the direct mail I just have to raise the postage. The printing is being donated! Please pray for my efforts.
I need to tell you as well that I’ve had another large in-kind contribution. A professional automated calling and polling service has donated thousands of dollars of in-kind services to my campaign. It’s amazing, what’s happening. It’s possible I could win!

Janine Hansen seems the most likely of any Constitution Party candidates this election to score a victory.

146 thoughts on “IAP candidate Janine Hansen in competitive race

  1. Trent Hill Post author

    pdsa,

    You are welcome to think whatever you want. A third-party candidate raising 15 grand for a state legislative race is impressive, as is her history of political involvement and what she is doing with that money. I’m not making an arguement that she will win, just that she is the IAP candidate MOST LIKELY to win.

  2. pdsa

    Trent Hill – she’s an anti-immigrant loon, who occupation is political lobbyist. The IAP’s platform is almost as whacked-out as she is. She is not deserving of support just because she is from a third-party. I realise that the purpose of this site is to promote all third parties, but I am a commenter, and I will speak my mind about dangerous and anti-libertarian political initiative, especially when they are occurring in my state.

    You’d think that a Nevada State Senator candidate from the cow counties, who has received over $15k in contributions could afford to hire at least a 14 year old to produce a half-assed website. One month before the election and it still says, “Just Like Nevada, This Site Currently Under Construction”. Now that’s downright homespun.

    Read this looney toon’s 2008 financial disclosure statement: 2008 Candidate Financial Disclosure. Do you think she in in compliance with Nevada State law here?

    Now look at her 2008 CE Report 1, filed August 5, 2008. It says $800 in total contributions. I can’t wait until here CE 2 is filed later this month. It should be interesting.

    Also note the extra signing statement on her CE 1, and note her signing statement that she did swears in the Name of Jesus Christ, and speaks of her signing the “secular affirmation” under duress. Hansen is a Mormon. Last I checked, Mormons still believe the King james is the authoritative version of the Bible.

    Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

    Matthew 5:33-37

    But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

    James 5:12

    Clearly, Hansen is a blasphemer.

  3. Trent Hill Post author

    So your critiques of her are that she hasnt filled out draconian paperwork? And that her website is half-assed?

    Ohk.

    But she’s mailed out a well-respected voter guide to every voter in her district, is playing radio ads in every area of her district, has done multiple candidate events, and is recieving polling and automated calling services for FREE.
    I’d say she’s doing better than any other third-party state legislative candidate in the nation–show me where im wrong.

  4. Trent Hill Post author

    Oh–and she has pretty impeccable, mainstream conservative, credentials. Let us not forget that.

  5. darolew

    “..her website is half-assed?”

    That’s a generous description. Her website is really fracking awful.

    “Oh–and she has pretty impeccable, mainstream conservative, credentials. Let us not forget that.”

    That’s not a good thing.

  6. Andy Craig

    I won’t complain too much about the website- how many state legislative candidates even have websites?- but that Jesus-swearing thing is pretty damn crazy.

    But I don’t think there’s any inherent conflict between her being a complete loon and her being the most successful third party candidate for state legislature in the country.

    Also, the IAPN platform on her website is just… embarrassing. An 15-year old could draft a better-written platform than that. Amusingly, just by it’s dearth of niceties like “words” and “explanation”, it’s probably the state CP platform *least* hostile to liberty. Though only a few have separate state platforms posted online. Many of them just copy and paste the national platform- thus leaving all those federalist weasel words in the national platform intact even though they’re seeking state office.

  7. pdsa

    Janine Hansen refuses to disclose her personal finances running for elective office in violation of Nevada State Law, claiming it “violates my God-given constitutionally protected rights”, yet just a few years ago she was happy to use other politicians’ financial disclosure forms when she was pushing a petition to bar government employees from holding political office.

    Hansen said state Ethics Commission financial disclosure reports show 16 current legislators earned pay in 2002 from local governments, the state or the public school and university systems. The number rises to 22 if one counts family income, mainly earned by their spouses.

    The Legislature has 63 members.

    Hansen contends these legislators have an inherent conflict of interest; they are faced with votes that either benefit or hurt their employers.

    Ed Vogel, “Petition Drive: Williams” troubles propel campaign”, Las Vegas Review-Journal, September 28, 2003

    In 1999, Hansen was completely off of her meds when opposing a state women’s commission, which received no state monies, and was funded through private sources.

    The president of a conservative citizens organization asked lawmakers Wednesday to abolish the state-authorized Nevada Commission for Women and said the panel should not be able to push its liberal causes with official state support.

    Janine Hansen, president of Nevada Eagle Forum, said the commission should be required to lobby its political agenda through the private sector as other groups must do.

    The 10-member commission, which spends no state tax money while pursuing its work, is recommended to be continued in Gov. Kenny Guinn’s 1999-2001 budget.

    Don Hataway, chief assistant budget administrator, said that the commission obtained funding from private sources to research issues.

    The budget for the agency was reviewed by the Senate Finance Committee. Hansen said the commission was affiliated with other groups that advocated and lobbied on behalf of liberal causes.

    “We lobby on our own money, and they should lobby on their own money,” she said. “This idea of a women’s commission has been promoted in every state, and in every state, they have used it to promote the very issues I am here opposing in the Legislature.”

    Sean Whaley, “Leader of conservative group wants state to end Commission for Women”, Las Vegas Review-Journal, Febuary 4, 1999

    Janine Hansen is a real piece of work. She believes that those God Given Constitutional Rights extend only to hers, not to theirs. This is very evident when the issue is sexual orientation. She pushed a petition which would have allowed discrimination against homosexuals.

    Supporters need 52,000 signatures by June 21 to qualify the initiative for the Nevada ballot. They do not know yet how many they have.

    “I think essentially they started too late,” said Janine Hansen of the Eagle Forum, which backs the measure.

    The initiative filed Jan. 25 is called the Minority Status and Child Protection Act. Its provisions include banning teaching that homosexuality is acceptable behavior and would allow discrimination against homosexuals in jobs and housing.

    The initiative would change the Nevada Constitution to read that “objection to homosexuality is a liberty and right of conscience and shall not be considered discrimination relating to civil rights.”
    [. . .]
    Hansen said she has received anonymous threatening calls because of her work on the anti-gay rights initiative, and she believes she knows why:

    “Homosexuality is a death style, not a lifestyle,” she said. “I think when you become involved in perverse homosexual lust, your other values are consumed, especially as you become consumed by that lust.”

    Jane Ann Morrison, “Anti-gay rights drive falling short in Nevada”, Las Vegas Review-Journal, May 25, 1994

    Janine Hansen came out against repealing an ancient Nevada law, which made consensual sodomy a felony.

    The Senate voted 14-6 Friday to repeal the state law that prohibits homosexuals from engaging in certain sexual acts.
    [. . .]
    Senate Bill 466, which now heads to the Assembly for consideration, would repeal the state’s 82-year-old sodomy law that prohibits people of the same sex from engaging in fellatio, cunnilingus or anal intercourse. Sodomites can be charged with a felony, punishable by one year to six years in prison.

    Janine Hansen, president of Nevada Eagle Forum, a conservative organization that promotes traditional values, condemned the Senate vote.

    “This is a sad day for the state of Nevada,” Hansen said. “It will open the door to the practice of homosexuality.”

    Hansen said her organization has been conducting a call-in phone campaign to urge legislators to keep the sodomy law. That campaign will continue in the Assembly. With Senate approval, the bill next goes to the Assembly Judiciary Committee for further hearings.

    Ed Vogel, “Sodomy bill goes to Assembly”, Las Vegas Review-Journal, May 29, 1993

    These are your “impeccable, mainstream conservative, credentials”? Janine Hansen is NOT a conservative; she’s a new-righty extremist, and it’s people like her who have turned contemporary conservatism into the cesspool of repressed public potty-peeping hypocrisy that it is today.

  8. Trent Hill Post author

    pdsa,

    Great. Dont vote for her, vote for Dean Rhodes or dont vote at all.

    Im just posting info.

  9. G.E.

    psda – What’s wrong with “allowing” private companies to discriminate against homosexuals? They should be able to… And discriminate against Christian nutjobs like this loon too. I know I would (the latter).

  10. paulie cannoli

    There is only something wrong with allowing private companies to discriminate if you only allow them to discriminate against one targeted group.

    In other words, if Hansen’s proposed legislation were to pass, an all-gay business could still be potentially liable for not hiring heterosexuals, or not hiring adherents of religions that the owners dislike, etc. At the same time, religious bigots down the street could not hire homosexuals, and not face the same penalties.

    The fact that she also favors enforcing anti-sodomy legislation (the penalty for which would be confinement by the state, and ironically would almost certainly involve forced sodomy) shows that her goal here is not freedom from the state, but rather advancing anti-gay bigotry by whatever means possible, including severe state coercion.

    However, Trent is correct: none of this takes away from the factual truth of his story, which has nothing to do with the accuracy of her views.

    As Andy Craig says, I don’t think there’s any inherent conflict between her being a complete loon and her being the most successful third party candidate for state legislature in the country.

  11. darolew

    I’m in favor of discrimination — private companies and individuals should be free to discriminate against gays, minorities, atheists (me), or any group at all. Discrimination = choice. Sure, it’s generally a bad choice, but all the same.

    However, I really don’t think I could vote for a referendum which changes the state constitution to: “objection to homosexuality is a liberty and right of conscience and shall not be considered discrimination relating to civil rights.” I object especially to the “right of conscience” bit, but the wording in general is terrible.

    And really, you have to be a real nutjob to support laws banning sodomy.

  12. paulie cannoli

    Doing away with anti-discrimination laws on a wholesale basis, on the grounds that the state is not an effective or proper vehicle for stopping discrimination, is a libertarian argument.

    Hansen’s legislation is not an attempt to do away with anti-discrimination legislation. It withdraws protection from one group only, which Hansen also wants to use the full force of the state against (completely not compatible with any libertarian grounds which can be used to justify doing away with anti-discrimination laws).

    It was as if I made an argument that state monopoly police departments are not the optimal way of protecting the public, and she made the argument that cops should continue to operate as is, except not protect gay people from being beaten by bigots, and should also beat them as well. Not the same argument at all.

  13. Trent Hill Post author

    GE,

    Hansen is part of the old-school Buchanan-clique. A nice lady, but terrible on social issues and protectionism. With that said–she helped kick the theocrats out of CP.

  14. G.E.

    What is a “theocrat” if this lady ain’t it? As far as I can tell, essentially none of the CP, past or present, literally want to force people to go to a certain church. None now or ever have been literal theocrats. So when people say that (I don’t), they mean the type of stuff that Ms. Hansen is talking about: anti-sodomy laws and the like.

    I have a friend who is literally a theonomist (more of a theocrat than the CP) and he’s for free trade and free immigration since there’s nothing in the Bible that preclude them (according to him). He’s also for stoning homosexuals.

  15. Trent Hill Post author

    GE,

    you are wrong. Some members did want exactly that. Not just that–they based EVERY issue upon biblical scripture (their interpreation of it, at least) and wanted an “explicitly Christian party”. So while they may not be LITERAL theocrats,they are quite close. Theonomist would probably describe them well.

    As for anti–sodomy laws, nothing could be more stupid.

    Still, Ms. Hansen is better than your average Republican or Democrat simply by virtue of being outside their system. Same as Nader being better than John McCain.

  16. Trent Hill Post author

    “That was mainly a denominational issue, wasn’t it?”

    Denominational issue?

    Well, I suppose you could characterize it that way for the ones who were removed from the party. They wanted everyone to be calvinists or follow and understand the Rushdoony-style Calvinist understanding of politics.

  17. G.E.

    Trent – I’m as hardcore laissez-faire as they come and I’ve gotten a lot of flak for “tolerating” homophobes, etc. (see LFV)… But even I can’t equate a nutjob economic agenda (Nader) with the pure evil of what Ms. Hansen promotes. She might theoretically be better than the majors, but she’s still morally repugnant — not misguided, but hateful. Nader and his acolytes are well-meaning morons, not people who actually WANT to hurt people. They think a new New Deal would be a good thing for everyone.

  18. pdsa

    Trent
    With that said–she helped kick the theocrats out of CP.

    She did? Just what the hell are they now, if not theocrats?

    Independent American Party of Nevada Platform

    We, the members of the Independent American Party of Nevada, recognize that throughout human history most men have been slaves to man’s institutions of government; that through the providence of God, our American Forefathers, steeped in the traditions, values and discipline of Christianity, threw off the shackles of government by man; that Americans established a Constitutional Republic, a government of law, under God, rooted in Biblical law, which controlled and regulated government, liberating the people and making the government the servant of the people.

    Nope nothing theocratic here…move along citizens.

    I live in Southern Nevada, so I cannot either vote for Rhoads or Hansen. It is myt state though, and the outcome of this election affects me. You do not unerstand how Nevada works. Southern Nevada pulls the brunt revenue weight for the whole state. Hansen makes big talk about property, yet supports the theft of this county’s wealth in a redistribution scheme that aids the cow counties. She derides the iniquity and faggotry of Las Vegas, yet is happy to suckle off of its teat at the public treasury. Hypocrisy and delusions of liberty under their own Personal Version (per.version) of a Christian God, which cannot be justified in the text of The Book they claim is the ultimate law.

    I have avoided direct assaults on the CP when posting here; have only commented briefly about their distorted sense of originalism, and their heretical religiosity; their repressed fears that homosexuality is some sort of communicable disease, which will affect their menfolk if tolerated. What kind of girliemen are members of the CP anyway, who fret that they will turn gay by example? This is what leads to conservative men in tights secret ass coveting; it is what leads to public potty peeporama.

    The rules changed when you brought these hypocritical assholes into my Nevada Bordello.

  19. pdsa

    G.E. – Nothing, if indeed they are truly private ventures. The problem arises with the concept of public access. These people are not supporting a denial of service that would affect them. They only want it to affect others. They believe they are are the little Dutch Boy holding off a deluge of sin with his finger stuck in the dyke.

    In regards to schools and housing; if they have taken the Federal pill, then they have ingested the poison. FHA funding, and school subsidies have their downsides, eh?

    In the words of the last real conservative, who these new-right poseurs often defame with their false claims of association to:

    “It’s a state-financed and state-run institute, and there’s no way you can say no to women. Now, if it were privately run with private money, they could tell women to go to hell.”

    Senator Barry Goldwater, regarding Shannon Faulkner’s court decision which forced VMI to let her go to school there.

    I might as well toss in another Goldwzter gem, which is germane to this discussion also:

    “The big thing is to make this country, along with every other country in the world with a few exceptions, quit discriminating against people just because they’re gay.” You don’t have to agree with it, but they have a constitutional right to be gay. And that’s what brings me into it.”

    Senator Barry Goldwater

  20. Trent Hill Post author

    “The rules changed when you brought these hypocritical assholes into my Nevada Bordello.”

    I did no such thing. Just reporting on one of the strongest candidates in the current third-party world.
    For the record, I disagree with MANY of her views, but I know her to be an honest lady. If she won office, I’m confident a grosse addition of liberty would take place in Nevada.

  21. darolew

    “If she won office, I’m confident a grosse addition of liberty would take place in Nevada.”

    If so, that’s a reflection of what a poor state Nevada, and the rest of this country, is in. When it comes to being pro-liberty, Janine Hansen is quite a few notches below even Bob Barr and George Phillies…

  22. Trent Hill Post author

    I’d say Hansen is beneath Barr, but not Phillies. Phillies would leave the Fed in control, wants to expand Government control of marriage, etc.

    Hansen’s bad proposals are mostly confined to social issues and protectionism. Nonethless, I’m now convinced she ISNT the third-party candidate in the nation with the best chance at winning. The green in Arkansas who is going to be on the ballot alone is looking just as good, and there is someone else,whom ill cover shortly.

  23. G.E.

    Nevada is already plenty libertarian, in comparison to other states. I see her as wanting to away with some of that liberty, more so than the average Republican or Democrat. They want to shave off a slice of liberty here, skim some there… She wants to amputate it; or perhaps castrate it.

  24. pdsa

    Many Nevadans presently registered in the IAP believe they have instead registered as non-affiliated voters, and that the IAP is well aware of this.

    The IAP’s Sagebrush Rebellion bandwagoneering should also be understood to be a distortion of libertarian principles.

    Question 7 on the “Are you an Independent America” page of the Nevada IAP website says:

    Do you think it is wrong for 91% of Nevada to be controlled by the Federal Government?

    Yet look at the figures on the Nevada Department Of Conservation And Natural Resources’ website page: Land and Management Status:

    Nevada’s borders enclose about 70,745,600 acres, making it the seventh largest state. The federal government controls 60,863,345 acres, or 86.1 percent of the land.

    That’s a 4.9% discrepancy between the two figures, and in Nevada, 4.9% is not chump change: it’s 692,622,580 acres. Just how the hell have they come up with that figure anyway?

    The Sagebrush rebellion is an example of framing a problem in a libertarian perspective dishonestly. It is a shame that the Federal Government controls such vast tracts of land in Nevada, but the “rebels” are actually welfare hogs who believe they are entitled to free lands at the public slop. Ranchers have been leasing cattle grazing rights on Federal land in Nevada for generations now. It has been passed along in families, never being put out to a bid process on the open market, and never being assessed at near true free-market value for the leases. Even though there has never been any tranfser of title to these recipients of Federal hand-outs, they believe that this still entitles them to own the land outright. These people would shriek with foul harpishness if the BLM were to ever auction off the land they are grazing their cattle on to the highest bidder. I support rendering large tracts of Federally held land in Nevada into private hands. This process should be done at public auction and title given to the highest bidder. The derived revenue should be put into both the Federal and Nevada State treasury. The BLM has done a piss-poor job managing the grazing use by these welfare ranchers, who have cared nothing about how their usage of the land has degraded the environment. Why should they care? It’s not their land, after all. The environment would be better managed by owners who have an invested financial stake in its value.

    When liberty is mentioned, we must always be careful to observe whether it is not really the assertion of private interests which is thereby designated.

    Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, “The Philosophy of History”

  25. pdsa

    No homesteading act ever gave away the amount of land used for open grazing to an individual. I do not know if you understand the vast size involved. In Nevada it’s not how many head of cattle can be grazed on one acre, it’s how many acres of land is need for head of cattle to graze. Open grazing ranchers receive an legal benefit those who do not live in the west might be amazed at. If a head of cattle is hit by a vehicle on the open road, the driver of the vehicle owes the rancher for the value of his livestock.

    Most of the privately held ranch land was originally homesteaded. What you are saying is akin to a mining corporation’s mineral rights on Federal Land entitling it to private ownership of the public land.

  26. CQIAP

    A search for Hansen at the Elko Free Press returns nothing newer than last January.

    = Guess again MORON!
    http://www.elkodaily.com/articles/2008/05/21/news/local_news/cookie2.txt

    http://www.elkodaily.com/articles/2008/05/20/news/local_news/local1.txt

    Also, her opponent is Dean Rhoads. He is Nevada State Senate’s majority whip, and is only a moderate for those who are to the right of Attila the Hun.

    = A man who has voted to give driver licenses to illegals, voted for the big 2003 tax increase and refused to sign a pledge protecting the sanctity of marriage- isn’t anywhere on the Right side of the spectrum, period.

  27. G.E.

    A man who has voted to give driver licenses to illegals, voted for the big 2003 tax increase and refused to sign a pledge protecting the sanctity of marriage- isn’t anywhere on the Right side of the spectrum, period.

    Two out of three ain’t bad.

  28. G.E.

    “Illegal” isn’t a noun, by the way. Aren’t you redneck brownshirts supposed to be for English as the National-Socialist Language?

  29. G.E.

    Furthermore, how is it that Nazis can be against a tax increase? We need high taxes in order to fund a government strong enough to seal off the border to make sure quality workers and goods don’t infringe on the white privilege of lazy and stupid rednecks, and to hunt down brown people and send them back (or kill them on the spot), etc., don’t we?

  30. paulie cannoli

    We need high taxes in order to fund a government strong enough to seal off the border to make sure quality workers and goods don’t infringe on the white privilege of lazy and stupid rednecks, and to hunt down brown people and send them back (or kill them on the spot), etc., don’t we?

    Also, to find and quarantine, or kill, all pornographers, porn consumers, homosexuals, bisexuals, abortionists and women who employ them, prostitutes, pimps, johns, strippers, strip joint patrons, gamblers, bookies, swingers, nudists, foreign language speakers, and so on.

    If there is anyone left, big government can go after those who say “happy holidays.”

  31. Trent Hill Post author

    GE,

    Brownshirts? Nazis? National Socialists? Wow–way to generalize and go over the top again.

    Rhodes’ voting for the 2003 tax increase is pretty bad, as if his voting to give driver’s liscences to illegals (something Ron Paul would agree with, is he a brownshirt too?)

  32. paulie cannoli

    Aren’t you redneck brownshirts supposed to be for English as the National-Socialist Language?

    National Socialist is such a historically compromised term. They prefer to be called Patriotic Organized Labor, or All-American Workers.

  33. Trent Hill Post author

    Disclaimer:

    With those things said–this is one of the reasons I abandoned the CP, their concentration on social issues is ridiculously stupid. And on most of them, they’re wrong.
    What finally cut the cord? 4 things.
    1.)My involvement with the Ron Paul/Barry Goldwater Jr. thing.
    2.)My joining the CFL and becoming District coordinator.
    3.)My joining Young Americans for Liberty and being offered numerous high-level positions.
    4.)Making fundraising calls to the CP donor list. The people who run the party, some were terrible, some were barely stomachable, and some were intelligent TRUE constitutionalists (Bob Bird, Bryan Malatesta, and Paul Venable amongst them)—but the average donor was an idiot. Not neccesarily racist, bigoted, or evil (though a few were)–most were simply ignorant and uneducated.

  34. Trent Hill Post author

    “driver’s liscences to illegals

    Nicht farshtein. Vos is ein illegal?”

    You got that backwards Paulie. If Driver’s licenses = “papers”, then shouldnt we NOT want illegals to get licenses?

  35. paulie cannoli

    My question was about the term “illegals.” I said nothing of papers.

    If everyone was exempted from having papers, I’d be all for it. If they are being issued, I’m not for denying them to selective groups – African-Americans, Hispanics – or even those accused or convicted of crimes.

    Are people who use illegal drugs also “illegals”? How about those who drive above the “legal limit” ?

  36. Trent Hill Post author

    “My joining Young Americans for Liberty and being offered numerous high-level positions.

    Is that c4L also?”

    No. Young Americans for Liberty is the student-group that has grown out of “Students for Paul”, a group I was involved with nationally. That group had, at its height, over 500 campus-groups and 60,000 members. Now, it is being reborn as a permanent organization (YAL) that will (sort of) mirror what Young Americans for Freedom was in the 60s and 70s. Except, it will be FAR more friendly to libertarians and consistently anti-war. Its official launch will not take place until January, but we have 60 campus groups already. If you want more info,email me.

  37. Trent Hill Post author

    paulie,

    “Illegals” is simply shorthand for “illegal aliens” as you clearly know.

  38. paulie cannoli

    Also, to find and quarantine, or kill, all pornographers, porn consumers, homosexuals, bisexuals, abortionists and women who employ them, prostitutes, pimps, johns, strippers, strip joint patrons, gamblers, bookies, swingers, nudists, foreign language speakers, and so on.

    If there is anyone left, big government can go after those who say “happy holidays.”

    I forgot dopers, fornicators and heterosexual sodomists. I’m not sure we’ll be able to collect enough revenue to go after the Happy Holidays people with such an extensive shopping list for State Santa.

  39. paulie cannoli

    “Illegals” is simply shorthand for “illegal aliens” as you clearly know.

    Yes. I also know Pakis is short for Pakistanis, and Hajis are those of the Muslim religion.

    No human being is illegal.

  40. Trent Hill Post author

    I wasnt actually aware that Hajis was shorthand for Muslim religion, is it pejoritive?

    And while your arguement is sweet and all–some human beings ARE guilty of crimes,and therefore in a state of illegality until they compensate for that crime or whatever.

    For the record, I’v long since backed off my hardcore anti-illegal immigration stance. I’m still against illegal immigration in the sense that I think we should keep track of who comes across the border, but no one should be barred entry unless they can be proven dangerous and it should have nothing to do with “jobs” or “culture” or whatever.

  41. paulie cannoli

    Email sent.

    Thinking on this.

    You got that backwards Paulie. If Driver’s licenses = “papers”, then shouldnt we NOT want illegals to get licenses?

    That might be an interesting question to ask GE, since he believes that homosexuals should be denied marriage licenses, because, ultimately, marriage licenses should not exist.

    Would this apply to state drivers licenses also?

    Would denying them to select groups be a step in the right direction?

  42. paulie cannoli

    I wasnt actually aware that Hajis was shorthand for Muslim religion, is it pejoritive?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs#H

    And while your arguement is sweet and all–some human beings ARE guilty of crimes,and therefore in a state of illegality until they compensate for that crime or whatever.

    So, are users of illegal drugs, drivers at illegal speeds, and parkers in illegal spaces also illegals? (Honestly, I’ve never even heard the term applied to murderers or rapists).

    As a non-statist, I would say that in a higher sense it is the state which is engaged in criminality when it criminalizes mutually voluntary behavior, such as crossing its invalid property line. Since the state is not the owner of the whole country, it has no right to enforce prohibition of trespass against that which it does not own.

    I have no problem per se with describing agents of the state who are in the process of enforcing such illegal state edicts as illegals.

    For the record, I’v long since backed off my hardcore anti-illegal immigration stance. I’m still against illegal immigration in the sense that I think we should keep track of who comes across the border, but no one should be barred entry unless they can be proven dangerous and it should have nothing to do with “jobs” or “culture” or whatever.

    Glad to hear that! Awesome progress.

    Do you still think that the bad current laws should be enforced while they remain on the books?

  43. Trent Hill Post author

    “So, are users of illegal drugs, drivers at illegal speeds, and parkers in illegal spaces also illegals? (Honestly, I’ve never even heard the term applied to murderers or rapists). ”

    Of course they arent “illegals”, but they are “murderers” rather than “someone who has committed murder” right?

  44. paulie cannoli

    “So, are users of illegal drugs, drivers at illegal speeds, and parkers in illegal spaces also illegals? (Honestly, I’ve never even heard the term applied to murderers or rapists). ”

    Of course they arent “illegals”, but they are “murderers” rather than “someone who has committed murder” right?

    Yes. So what crime did illegal immigrants commit? They immigrated, emigrated, or simply migrated.

    Thus, they are immigrants, emigrants, or migrants.

  45. Trent Hill Post author

    They did not immigrate, they trespassed.

    Immigrants fill out the laborious paperwork, wait in line, and are allowed into the country lawfully.

    Illegal immigrants skip ahead of the (stupidly long) line and do not fill out the (bureacratic) paperwork. This is a crime, whether or not I think it should be.

  46. Trent Hill Post author

    Furthermore,

    Most illegal immigrants forge or makeup social security numbers,which is also a crime.

    Neither the bureacratic mess nor Social Security should exist. But they do, and while the rest of us follow the rules and suffer the consequences—they skip ahead and reap the benefits. Again, this isnt an indictment of their actions,im simply explaining how many anti-illegal immigration people come to their conclusions–rather than GE’s suggestion that it is ONLY by way of ignorance or racism that people comes to this positions.
    I’ll say again–Ron Paul feels similarly.

  47. paulie cannoli

    They did not immigrate, they trespassed.

    Trespass is defined as 1. Law.
    a. an unlawful act causing injury to the person, property, or rights of another, committed with force or violence, actual or implied.
    b. a wrongful entry upon the lands of another.
    c. the action to recover damages for such an injury.
    2. an encroachment or intrusion.
    3. an offense, sin, or wrong.
    –verb (used without object)
    4. Law. to commit a trespass.
    5. to encroach on a person’s privacy, time, etc.; infringe (usually fol. by on or upon).
    6. to commit a transgression or offense; transgress; offend; sin.

    Upon whose property did these trespassers trespass?

  48. Trent Hill Post author

    Paulie,

    Whether I like it or not, and I dont—the state claims ownership of a small section of land where the “borders” are in the south.

  49. paulie cannoli

    Immigrants fill out the laborious paperwork, wait in line, and are allowed into the country lawfully.

    Illegal immigrants skip ahead of the (stupidly long) line and do not fill out the (bureacratic) paperwork. This is a crime, whether or not I think it should be.

    Most of them would much rather stand in stupidly long lines and fill out bureaucratic paperwork than cross across perilous deserts where people die from heat and thirst, pay exorbitant fees to smugglers, and live in fear of deportation.

    However, with the quota system in place, they have no such choice available.

  50. Trent Hill Post author

    I do believe in secure borders, and I think we should know if anyone enters our country (as it is certainly possible that harmful pathogens could cross through with immigrants, as could murderers, rapists, etc.

    However, I do not believe that it is neccesary to keep any peaceful and lawful immigrants out. If the jobs are here for them, they’ll get paid–if not, they’ll go home.
    Of course, the welfare system does make this impossible, and it would need to be sorted out before I think any abolishing of quotas could be accomplished.

  51. G.E.

    Brownshirts? Nazis? National Socialists?

    The shoe fits. Sorry.

    voting to give driver’s liscences to illegals (something Ron Paul would agree with, is he a brownshirt too?)

    If that is Ron Paul’s position, then he’s wrong. Of course, driver’s licenses in general are evil and stupid — as are socialist roads. But I bet the CP, lovers of National Socialism, aren’t leading that fight.

    “Illegals” is simply shorthand for “illegal aliens” as you clearly know.

    Yes, and it is dehumanizing term used by racists.

    They did not immigrate, they trespassed.

    Whose property did they trespass against? Against whom did they initiate force? The socialist state and its collective property? Sorry, it has no rights and cannot be the victim in a crime.

    All of the “crimes” you ascribe to the capitalist laborers who come here to pursue better lives are really “crimes” of refusing to submit to the National-Socialist state that the CP loves. They’re not real crimes, anymore than interracial marriage or teaching slaves to read were real crimes.

  52. Trent Hill Post author

    Yea, so not having this arguement while GE suggests that i’m a racist for using the word “illegals”.

    GE suggesting that the CP loves socialism is pretty ridiculous and stretches his arguement fairly thin. Nationalists? Yes. Socialists? Hardly.

    I’ll simply refer you to Ron Paul again, instead of embarking on an annoyingly long arguement in the comments section where I use reason-based arguements, paulie attempts to debunk them (again,using reason) and GE suggests i’m a socialist, racist, or some variation thereof.

  53. Trent Hill Post author

    For the record, im a radical minarchist in the mold of Mencken, Nock, Ron Paul, Howard Buffett, etc.

  54. paulie cannoli

    I do believe in secure borders, and I think we should know if anyone enters our country (as it is certainly possible that harmful pathogens could cross through with immigrants, as could murderers, rapists, etc.

    Just country? Not state, county, city, neighborhood, block? Why/why not?

  55. paulie cannoli

    Of course, the welfare system does make this impossible, and it would need to be sorted out before I think any abolishing of quotas could be accomplished.

    Does it also have to be abolished before we end drug prohibition?

    Does drug prohibition have to be ended before we do away with gun licensing and other firearms restrictions?

    etc

  56. Trent Hill Post author

    Paulie,

    Are you suggesting that no such security should take place? That rapists, murderers, terrorists, and individuals carrying dangerous diseases should be able to immigrate freely into our country?

  57. Trent Hill Post author

    Paulie,

    Drug prohibition and the welfare system have nothing to do with each other. If anything, drug prohibition STRENGTHENS the welfare state,as would unmitigated immigration. The welfare system must go first, otherwise millions would flow in simply to take advantage of free money (the welfare system) and exacerbate our (already dire) fiscal problems.

  58. paulie cannoli

    Yea, so not having this arguement while GE suggests that i’m a racist for using the word “illegals”.

    I don’t think you are a racist.

    However, I think you are unwittingly allowing yourself to be the tool of racists by unthinkingly using a racist term which is meant to dehumanize large groups of people for failing to follow unjust, capricious state regulations.

    Although, technically, quite a few Europeans are “illegal” immigrants, the term is not generally applied against them; and while many migrants who share the looks and “national” origins of “illegals” are in fact “legal,” they are still stereotyped with the term.

  59. Trent Hill Post author

    Anyway–the anarchist position is one which impossible to reconcile with reality. Under a minarchist system, one of the VERY FEW jobs of the Federal (or perhaps State) government(s) is to keep dangerous people out. My view meshes with that well. The anarchist opinion that private property would butt-up against Mexico is ridiculous. One person acting on their own could not possibly defend themselves from the massive trespassing that would take place. More importantly, the Outside Force problem is a very real threat. Mexico would likely just start buying those border properties under their protection (thus expanding their nation) or simply take them by force, one by one.

  60. G.E.

    Yea, so not having this arguement while GE suggests that i’m a racist for using the word “illegals”.

    Your “reason-based” arguments include ascribing things to me that I did not say. I did not say you were a “racist” or a “socialist.”

    Arguing with you is indeed a waste of time, since you’ll ultimately trot out the “billionaire murderer” fallacy and declare yourself the victor.

  61. paulie cannoli

    Drug prohibition and the welfare system have nothing to do with each other.

    Some people have suggested that drug prohibition must continue so long as there is a welfare state, otherwise drug addiction will get out of control with addicts supporting themselves by welfare.

    Others have suggested that guns can not be allowed on the streets so long as prohibition creates criminal violence.

    Others yet would contend that the welfare system must remain in place as long as the state limits trade, prevents business formation through licensing, etc.

    One can create such an ordered cannot free X until Y argument for, perhaps, any pro-freedom policy.

  62. G.E.

    drug prohibition STRENGTHENS the welfare state,as would unmitigated immigration.

    Unmitigated immigration would STRENGTHEN the welfare state???

    Not if immigrants are really just the mooching parasites the National-Socialists pretend they are. You might have a point, though: with the immigrants doing all the hard work and paying taxes, white trailer-park inbred losers could continue collecting their welfare checks and voting CP.

  63. G.E.

    I think you are unwittingly allowing yourself to be the tool of racists by unthinkingly using a racist term which is meant to dehumanize large groups of people

    Watch it, paulie. All I did was state the fact that using “illegal” as a noun was something racists did to dehumanize — and by Trent’s impeccable “reason-based” logic, I called him a racist.

  64. G.E.

    Anyway–the anarchist position is one which impossible to reconcile with reality.

    Here we go…

    Exit stage left.

  65. paulie cannoli

    Are you suggesting that no such security should take place? That rapists, murderers, terrorists, and individuals carrying dangerous diseases should be able to immigrate freely into our country?

    No more than they should be allowed to immigrate freely into our county! (I think the “r” in country is superfluous there, don’t you?)

  66. Trent Hill Post author

    I said: “Illegals” is simply shorthand for “illegal aliens” as you clearly know.

    GE Said: “Yes, and it is dehumanizing term used by racists.”

    You are suggesting that anyone who uses the term is a racist,correct?

    Like I said–not discussing this with you GE. Not until you can drop the outrageous insults and act like a normal human being. You use the internet to take out your anger on random commenters–you’d earn more commenters by using reason-based arguements.

  67. G.E.

    You are suggesting that anyone who uses the term is a racist,correct?

    What a poorly reasoned assumption that is to make.

    “Chair” is a term used by racists to describe what they sit their asses in.

  68. Trent Hill Post author

    “Arguing with you is indeed a waste of time, since you’ll ultimately trot out the “billionaire murderer” fallacy and declare yourself the victor.”

    Their are multiple arguements from the minarchist perspective against anarcho-capitalism. I’ve suggested you read ANY of the material, and you have REF– USED. On the flipside, I have read MASS AMOUNTS of anarcho-capitalist literature. So, of the two of us–I am the one who is most educated on the subject, and you are the one who chooses to remain ignorant.

  69. Trent Hill Post author

    “Some people have suggested that drug prohibition must continue so long as there is a welfare state, otherwise drug addiction will get out of control with addicts supporting themselves by welfare.

    Others have suggested that guns can not be allowed on the streets so long as prohibition creates criminal violence.

    Others yet would contend that the welfare system must remain in place as long as the state limits trade, prevents business formation through licensing, etc.”

    Those are ridiculously stretched arguements and do not have direct correlations,like this does.

  70. G.E.

    I am the one who is most educated on the subject, and you are the one who chooses to remain ignorant.

    Says the guy who said there was “nothing wrong” with seeking economic rent.

  71. paulie cannoli

    The anarchist opinion that private property would butt-up against Mexico is ridiculous.

    Actually, it already does. Numerous private parcels butt up against the border.


    One person acting on their own could not possibly defend themselves from the massive trespassing that would take place.

    Nothing prevents them from forming voluntary funded defense cooperatives.
    What I object to is
    1) coercive funding
    2) forced inclusion of property owners who don’t want to participate.


    More importantly, the Outside Force problem is a very real threat. Mexico would likely just start buying those border properties under their protection (thus expanding their nation) or simply take them by force, one by one.

    I have nothing against anyone willingly selling their property to whomever they wish (otherwise, how can it be said to be their property?). Of course, I’d abolish the government of Mexico if I could, and I support voluntarily funded defense against anyone’s property being taken by force.

  72. G.E.

    Reading statist propaganda doesn’t make you “educated.”

    Your arguments, like those of the “minarchists” (statists) you read, are fallacious. I don’t need to read them directly — you’ve asserted them, and they’re absurd.

  73. Trent Hill Post author

    “You might have a point, though: with the immigrants doing all the hard work and paying taxes, white trailer-park inbred losers could continue collecting their welfare checks and voting CP.”

    There we go. Welcome back “undercover_anarchist”. Everyone that votes lives in a trailer park, is inbred, and are losers.
    GE–if someone came in here and suggested that everyone who voted for Cynthia McKinney was a “black panther loving, welfare collecting, kool-aid drinking, welfare queen” you would be beside yourself.

    And you call ME a racist? I’ve never suggested something so collectivist as you just did.

  74. Trent Hill Post author

    “Watch it, paulie. All I did was state the fact that using “illegal” as a noun was something racists did to dehumanize — and by Trent’s impeccable “reason-based” logic, I called him a racist.”

    You said people who use “illegals” are racists. I have used the term “illegal immigrant”. Am I a racist GE?

  75. paulie cannoli

    Those are ridiculously stretched arguements and do not have direct correlations,like this does.

    I don’t think one argument is any more ridiculous than the other.

  76. Trent Hill Post author

    ““Chair” is a term used by racists to describe what they sit their asses in.”

    Your suggestion was that “illegals” was a term used exclusively by racists.

  77. Trent Hill Post author

    “Says the guy who said there was “nothing wrong” with seeking economic rent.”

    I wasnt aware of the term. I immediately educated myself on the subject. Can you say the same?

    By the way, nice deflection of my chanllenge to READ THE LITERATURE.

  78. Trent Hill Post author

    “Actually, it already does. Numerous private parcels butt up against the border. ”

    Obviously–but if Mexico attacked it, it would be trampelled by US Defense Forces. Not so in an anarchist utopia.

  79. Trent Hill Post author

    “Reading statist propaganda doesn’t make you “educated.”

    Your arguments, like those of the “minarchists” (statists) you read, are fallacious. I don’t need to read them directly — you’ve asserted them, and they’re absurd.”

    If anyone thought the same correlation between you and anarchism existed–they’d run from Murray Rothbard like he was a zombie.
    It is your attitude about this subject that keeps neocons from becoming libertarians,because they wont just read the neccesary materials and educate themselves. Remain ignorant, I dont care.

  80. Trent Hill Post author

    “Your arguments, like those of the “minarchists” (statists) you read, are fallacious.”

    Oh. And one more thing–I hate the state. So do the majority of minarchists (Leonard Read’s famous essay aside*).

    *Not that you would know what essay im talking about. You refuse to read it, despite it being a VERY important part of libertarian-movement history and an example of a BAD minarchist attack on anarcho-capitalism.

  81. Trent Hill Post author

    I’ll issue a direct challenge: Read the neccesary literature on the minarchist-anarchist arguement, or shut the hell up about it.

  82. darolew

    “Your suggestion was that “illegals” was a term used exclusively by racists.”

    I’m not involved in this discussion, but I’d like to point out that G.E. didn’t say that. He said: “Yes, and it is dehumanizing term used by racists.”

    “Used by” does not mean “only used by” or “exclusively used by”. G.E.’s point with the chair is a valid one. There was no assertion that you were racist. There was an assertion that you were using terminology also used by racists (a rather meaningless assertion, actually).

    The “dehumanizing” bit of G.E.’s comment was actually of more substance.

    “Read the neccesary literature on the minarchist-anarchist arguement, or shut the hell up about it.”

    Out of curiosity, which literature are you recommending to read? I’ve done some reading on that subject myself, and am interested in seeing more.

  83. Trent Hill Post author

    darolew,

    While I dont fully agree with any one piece of literature, there are several pieces on the subject that bring up various points.

    S. Andrew Swann’s “Hostile Takeover Trilogy”, Robert Nozick’s “Anarchy, State, and Utopia”, The Tannehill’s “The Market for Liberty”, and Leonard Read’s “Government: An Ideal Concept”.

  84. paulie cannoli

    Your suggestion was that “illegals” was a term used exclusively by racists.

    It’s a bigoted term, but it does not mean that only bigots use it. A lot of people use it without thinking it through.

  85. paulie cannoli

    Obviously–but if Mexico attacked it, it would be trampelled by US Defense Forces. Not so in an anarchist utopia.

    I think private/competitive defense would be more effective, just like breaking up any other government-forced monopoly. Of course, you assume that the USA would be the only regime to cease to exist, but Mexico would continue?

  86. G.E.

    You said people who use “illegals” are racists. I have used the term “illegal immigrant”. Am I a racist GE?

    Again, you show extremely poor deductive logic. I did not say what you say I said. Until you can figure out the difference, I’m not going to pat you on the back and say, “No, Trent. You sure aren’t a racist!”

  87. G.E.

    What a pitifully weak argument: “Read everything I tell you to read and until you do, you don’t know what you’re talking about.”

    Neocons are neocons because they’re evil. They cannot be reformed.

    Minarchists are minarchists because they lack moral courage and have a religious faith in something that’s even less likely to exist than a bogeyman god in the sky: the “limited” state.

    I’m “ignorant” because I haven’t read the books you wanted me to read. You failed to know an Econ 101 term — I can’t take your arguments for the state (an infringement against the free market) seriously, since it is essentially an economic issue.

  88. G.E.

    And it’s a moral one too. And NOTHING I could read would possibly change my moral conviction that theft and murder are WRONG, period, no matter how “limited” or “efficient” they are or for whatever “good” they are applied.

  89. Trent Hill Post author

    “Neocons are neocons because they’re evil. They cannot be reformed.”

    Just like terrorists right? They kill cuz they’re evil and hate freedom!

  90. Trent Hill Post author

    “Minarchists are minarchists because they lack moral courage and have a religious faith in something that’s even less likely to exist than a bogeyman god in the sky: the “limited” state.”

    Minarchists are minarchists because they hate the state but live in reality. Anarchists,on the otherhand, live in a dreamworld. Most importantly, if a limited government is a “bogeyman”,what is anarchism? Minarchy has existed,anarcho-capitalism has not.

  91. G.E.

    Neocons are the real terrorists.

    Trent thinks he can turn Dick Cheney into a “minarchist” — someone who murders and steals on a limited basis — if only he’d read some books that told him about the danger of billionaire psychopaths and the folly of privatization and competition.

  92. Trent Hill Post author

    “I’m “ignorant” because I haven’t read the books you wanted me to read. ”

    No,you are ignorant because you have not thoroughly explored both sides of an idea. It is like argueing against Christianity even though you’ve never done ANY research on it–you’ve only SPOKEN to Christians.

  93. G.E.

    Minarchism “existed” and directly evolved into what we have today. It is 100% proven that it does not and cannot work.

    Trent’s philosophy is: rape is inevitable… But let’s try to limit each person to one rape per year. Maybe we can plan when the rapes occur and try to shield people from getting raped more than twice in a floating 12-month period. But we need government to prevent psychopath billionaires from exceeding the rape quota!

  94. Trent Hill Post author

    GE,

    Anyone can be reformed. People arent just evil,that is a truly shallow interpretation of reality—then again,you are an anarchist,arent you?

    Prizatization and competition are great,dont paint me as a socialist because you dont have a grip on reality Jason.

    The good news is: You cannot be satirized, you are a satirization of yourself.

  95. G.E.

    I’m against aggressive violence. Period. No exceptions.

    Did Jesus not have a grip on reality?

    You are not for privatization or freedom across the board. Only in a limited context.

  96. Trent Hill Post author

    GE’s position is:

    If you rape someone and have the money to pay for it–its ohk!

    GE–until you can participate in an honest dialogue, without all of the hyperbole, you should give up. In the meantime, I have some readings you might be interested in!

  97. G.E.

    Not my position at all.

    It shows real intellectual cowardice and/or poor reasoning that you routinely mischaracterize my positions.

    If someone rapes another in a free society, the victim would seek damages. They would not necessarily have to be monetary in nature. It would be up to a jury (as opposed to Trent’s beloved parasites elected to the “limited” government) to determine the damages, within the request from the victim. The rapist might be castrated or executed AND forced to pay a monetary sum.

  98. Trent Hill Post author

    “It shows real intellectual cowardice and/or poor reasoning that you routinely mischaracterize my positions.”

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    YOU are saying that about ME?

  99. G.E.

    In Trent’s “limited socialism,” rape is a crime AGAINST THE STATE, not the victim. What the victim wants means nothing. If the victim would prefer $100,000 to go to college instead of paying taxes to keep her rapist in jail for 2-3 years, TOO BAD. The state’s needs take precedence over the victim’s.

  100. Trent Hill Post author

    Here is a fun experiment, we’ll replace GE’s words about my philosophy (which,by the way, he knows nothing of) with champions of freedom.

    “Ron Paul’s philosophy is: rape is inevitable… But let’s try to limit each person to one rape per year.”

    “Howard Buffett’s philosophy is: rape is inevitable… But let’s try to limit each person to one rape per year.”

    “George Reisman’s philosophy is: rape is inevitable… But let’s try to limit each person to one rape per year.”

  101. G.E.

    The big “haha,” again ignoring the facts.

    You say I said you were a racist. LIE / stupidity on your part.

    You say I believe rapists should be able to get off with a fine. LIE / ignorance.

    I’m not mischaracterizing your republican fantasy — I’m exposing it. Big difference.

  102. Trent Hill Post author

    “In Trent’s “limited socialism,” rape is a crime AGAINST THE STATE, not the victim. What the victim wants means nothing. If the victim would prefer $100,000 to go to college instead of paying taxes to keep her rapist in jail for 2-3 years, TOO BAD. The state’s needs take precedence over the victim’s.”

    Another mischaracterization of MY position.

  103. Trent Hill Post author

    “You say I believe rapists should be able to get off with a fine. LIE / ignorance.”

    You believe that rapists should be tried in private courts, easily bought and sold.

  104. G.E.

    Ron Paul (if he is indeed not an anarcho-capitalist, and I have my doubts), Howard Buffett, George Reisman, etc., do/did follow that credo. Throwing out big names doesn’t negate the fact that you think it is morally acceptable to murder and steal on a “limited” basis in order to prevent “psychopath billionaires” from committing crimes and then paying off the victim’s families.

  105. Trent Hill Post author

    “I’m not mischaracterizing your republican fantasy — I’m exposing it. Big difference.”

    One more time, i’ll go over it. republicanism has existed. anarcho-capitalism, has not. Minarchy has existed in multiple forms for decades or centuries.

  106. Trent Hill Post author

    GE,

    1st–Ron Paul is CLEARLY not an anarcho-capitalist.

    2nd–no. Throwing in big names shows how crazy you are =). Suggesting Ron Paul and Howard Buffett didnt have moral courage or werent “smart enough” to understand the concepts pretty much dispells your statements about “what a minarchist is”.

    Face it GE: Anarcho-capitalism is a dream, and a badly conceieved one at that. It has massive holes in its theory—ones which I’v encourage you to explore, but you prefer to live in blissful ignorance.

  107. G.E.

    Your statist absurdities know no end. Now you’re arguing that public courts are somehow less suscepitable to bribery than private ones. This makes no sense. Private courts have an incentive to dole out justice — public ones DO NOT.

    You need to study more economics and cut back on reading statist propaganda. Not knowing a basic concept like “economic rent” shows a true deficiency on your part, and your socialist reasoning (NOT saying you’re a socialist — your reasoning in this case is socialist) is indicative of your ignorance.

    It’s like we’re having an argument about cars and you don’t know what an engine is… And then I’m supposed to listen to what you have to say.

  108. Trent Hill Post author

    GE,

    As a small subject-change, why is it that you can have reasonable, non-insulting, respectful debates?

  109. G.E.

    I speak the truth, you take it offensively. You have called me “ignorant” said “HAHAHAAHAH”, said I said things I didn’t say (backed up by two other commenters, btw) etc… And then you say that I’m incapable of being “reasonable, non-insulting” debates? Look in the mirror, bub.

    I’m against murder and theft, PERIOD, just like the Prince of Peace. Evangelize elsewhere, cuz I’m not converting.

  110. Trent Hill Post author

    GE,

    You accusing me of ignorance is pretty rich, considering you refuse to read both sides of the arguement we are currently having. As for the term “economic rent”, I wasn’t familiar with it–but it has nothing to do with our current debate,does it? Furthermore, even if I did–many economists could have this arguement with you and still not take your side,lol, so that is a fallacious arguement.

    As for your suggestions? Economics is not my area of specialty, political science and history are. However, I have read Mises, Hayek, Rothbard, and Hazlitt all pretty extensively. And I dont read much “statist propoganda”. Im currently reading Mencken and Nock.

    As for the continual allusion to my non-understanding of the term “economic rent”, I could just as easily refer to your days of loving the Fed, hating the gold standard, and championing the cause of the Greens. But that is a stupid arguement paved with ad hominem attacks.

    I have a few suggestions for you too: Deal in realities rather than utopias. I have ideas for a utopia too,but they dont work. Make allies rather than enemies. If you are going to try to “convert” people to your cause, don’t insult them or disrepect them. Stop reading fantasy (AC lit).

  111. Trent Hill Post author

    “I speak the truth, you take it offensively.”

    You speak rubbish. The dreams of children,cultivated by grown men–and call it truth. Unfortunately, it doesn’t hold water.

    And—what I take offensively is your condescension, your disrespect, your insults, as any being would.

  112. G.E.

    I knew virtually everything I know now during my “Fed-loving” days. It’s just that I hadn’t seen things from the proper perspective.

    One thing I did not understand was monetary history. This has been my intellectual focus for the past 18 months or so.

    I’m not ashamed of the 6 months or so I spent refuting the fallacious anti-Fed conspiracy theories of right-wing populists (mostly CPers) — it is precisely those fallacies that blind people to the evil reality of central banking and fiat currency — nor am I ashamed of my 7 months or so with the Greens, during which time I ran a strongly anti-war congressional campaign that engaged dozens of young people. I would be ashamed of being a member of a party like the CP, with its putrid platform and homophobic, xenophobic tilts. You were never a good fit there.

    I don’t hate to read. I read several hours every day. I read and write for work and for pleasure. But I’m not going to read some B.S. books that you think are going to convert me to a philosophy of limited theft and murder because it would be a waste of time — just like debating you now.

    I’m not trying to rip you for not knowing a term. You called me “ignorant” first. My point is that if you don’t understand economics (and you do accept socialist reasonings for the need for public goods) then you’re obviously not going to understand why private entities work better than public ones. Economic rent is a very basic concept and it has a LOT to do with arguments against the state (either minarchist or anarchist). It was a term bandied about A LOT by Smith, Ricardo, etc., the early classical liberals. So I can do without your book suggestions if the books you’re reading haven’t taught you that term.

  113. Trent Hill Post author

    “But I’m not going to read some B.S. books that you think are going to convert me to a philosophy of limited theft and murder because it would be a waste of time — just like debating you now.”

    Perhaps if you knew the arguements holding me up you could convert me more easily?
    That is, of course, a joke. I cannot be converted to the ideology of dismemberment via non-protection.

  114. Trent Hill Post author

    “So I can do without your book suggestions if the books you’re reading haven’t taught you that term.”

    Please. This is a dodge. Like suggesting that you won’t read a book without the term “liberty”,even if it is obviously pro-liberty.

  115. G.E.

    I have no interesting in converting you. You have thought about the issue enough, and you morally condone theft and murder in the name of the state “on a limited scale.” You have no moral qualms with that. Maybe you could be converted into a David Freidmanite type of anarchist, cold and rational, but your moral acceptance of theft and murder means you’ll never be my kind of anarchist; i.e. the kind who assert the fundamental right of human beings to be free from violence, PERIOD.

  116. Trent Hill Post author

    GE,

    You condone wholesale theft and murder through chaos. The only difference is that my system will slowly evolve into big government, and yours will either do that, regress into tribalism, or explode into a dictatorship of some sort.

    And yes, you obviously have an interest in “converting” me. You said as much as few weeks back when you assertted that I would be converted “within the year”.

    For the record: I like David Friedman alot. Not as much as Woods or DiLorenzo, but alot.

  117. Trent Hill Post author

    Oh,and your system doesnt result in freedom from violence. It results in freedom from violence from the state,because the state ceases to exist. But the state WOULD be replaced by another state (be it through the evolution of a defense agency, a hostile takeover, or authoritarian revolt) and in the meantime, anyone could buy their way out of any problem. That is, if your system COULD exist, which it couldnt.

  118. G.E.

    For the record: I like David Friedman alot. Not as much as Woods or DiLorenzo, but alot.

    That makes one of us.

    I’m through with discussing this with you, man. You state your bogus “arguments” as facts.

    I have no interest in converting you and never did. I used to believe that you would convert yourself. Now I see that you’re morally okay with theft and murder as being the exclusive “rights” of the monopoly state. I was wrong about you.

  119. Trent Hill Post author

    Awww,are you dissapointed in me?

    This is like me and my father all over again. =)

    Still friends? lol.

  120. Ross Levin

    Trent – I haven’t read much of this discussion, but I have thought before about what you’re saying regarding the evolution of new states. GE has said in the past that new governments would emerge.

    If that’s the case, and you are OK with the evolution of governments over time in an anarcho-capitalist society, then technically we are living in one, because this is how governments have developed over time beginning with anarchy.

    Maybe I’m wrong. I’m just throwing that out there.

  121. Trent Hill Post author

    Quite aware of that resource, I do adore the Molinari institute for being unabashedly pro-freedom and not involving sectional disputes in its persuit of academic awareness.

  122. Trent Hill Post author

    Ross,

    You are technically right, sort of. Before the emergence of “the State” in the historical sense (which was….I suppose…thousands upon thousands of years ago), we lived in anarchy. But that’d be incorrect,as tribalism is not the same thing.

  123. pdsa

    CQIAP – Moron? That’s showing me how you turn the other cheek alright. More Christian apostasy? Why am I not surprised. Better go to the mirror and check out that mote.

    As to your vehement homophobia. Shall we say King James at twent paces in you church parking lot, High-Noon next Sunday? Thou hypocrite!:

    Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

    Luke 6:37-39

    That’s right, I’m talkin’ to you, Stevie Wonder wannabe.

    Please offer citations from The Nation’s founding that would indicate your anti-immigrant xenophobia has anything whatsoever to do with “Original Intent”.

    As for the taxation ravening: yeah taxes are a bitch, but let’s put it in perspective:

    Nevada’s State/Local Tax Burden Second-Lowest in Nation
    During the past three decades, Nevada’s state and local tax burden has consistently ranked among the nation’s lowest. Currently estimated at 6.6% of income, Nevada’s state/local tax burden percentage ranks 49th highest nationally, well below the national average of 9.7%. Nevadans pay $3,245 per capita in state and local taxes.

    Source: The Tax Foundation

    It also worth noting that those cow county welfare ranchers, who graze their cattle on Federal lands paying less than the free-market rate for their lease, do not have to pony up any property taxes for its use. Nevada has no state income tax, no corporate tax. 61% of Nevada’s State Tax Revenue comes from sales tax and gaming tax (Source). Clark County (Las Vegas Metro) covers the rest of the state, but the cow counties bellow like fresh branded ruminants about their taxes. Cover your own slothful asses if you don’t like it, ok?

    Nevada’s legislature only meets once every other year, so it can only do 1/2 the damage. Nevada has a balanced budget amendment to its constitution. It takes a 2/3 majority in each of the legislative houses to pass the budget and any tax increase. In 2003, a budget was passed by 2/3 of the legislature, which required more revenue. Some of the legislators who voted for the budget, then turned around and shouted no new taxes! Anyone care to resolve this stupidity? This required a special legislative session which increased the amount of state revenues being poured down the toilet. Nevada has no mechanism for funding in absence of a budget. Without resolving this issue, all state business would have come to a grinding halt, including the public schools.

    == == ==

    G.E., your attitude is well taken regarding taxes, but reality is what it is. Also you might want to take a gander at just what this “massive” 2003 tax increase entailed (Nevada Department of Taxation). I’m willing to venture that your tax liability would be substantially decreased were you to move to Nevada.

  124. CQIAP

    Trent Hill – she’s an anti-immigrant loon, who occupation is political lobbyist.

    = who doesn’t get paid for it.

    The IAP’s platform is almost as whacked-out as she is.

    = Too bad the 197,000 people voting for Joel Hansen for State Sup. Court judge didn’t, or the people that elected Jackie Berg, Bill Wilkerson, and Cel Ochoa to office!

    She is not deserving of support just because she is from a third-party. I realise that the purpose of this site is to promote all third parties, but I am a commenter, and I will speak my mind about dangerous and anti-libertarian political initiative, especially when they are occurring in my state.

    = You are in the minority, and this is MY state too, I will also speak out against you.

    You’d think that a Nevada State Senator candidate from the cow counties, who has received over $15k in contributions could afford to hire at least a 14 year old to produce a half-assed website.

    = At least she has a website, unlike Dean Rhoads, and that money goes to more important things then a website.

    One month before the election and it still says, “Just Like Nevada, This Site Currently Under Construction”. Now that’s downright homespun.
    Read this looney toon’s 2008 financial disclosure statement: 2008 Candidate Financial Disclosure. Do you think she in in compliance with Nevada State law here?

    = Nothing looks wrong to me, in fact she knows our laws better then you do. Try again.

    Now look at her 2008 CE Report 1, filed August 5, 2008. It says $800 in total contributions. I can’t wait until here CE 2 is filed later this month. It should be interesting.

    = the whole idea was to stay under the radar until the last minute, a good campaign strategy for a third-party candidate.

    Also note the extra signing statement on her CE 1, and note her signing statement that she did swears in the Name of Jesus Christ, and speaks of her signing the “secular affirmation” under duress. Hansen is a Mormon. Last I checked, Mormons still believe the King james is the authoritative version of the Bible.

    = As long as it is translated correctly.

    Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
    Matthew 5:33-37

    = Sorry, doesn’t relate to Janine’s case, in fact- “but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths”, sounds like Janine was complying with this.

    But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
    James 5:12

    = Funny how Hebrews 6:16 & 17 contradicts that.

    Clearly, Hansen is a blasphemer.

    = No, you are the one.

  125. CQIAP

    Janine Hansen refuses to disclose her personal finances running for elective office in violation of Nevada State Law, claiming it “violates my God-given constitutionally protected rights”, yet just a few years ago she was happy to use other politicians’ financial disclosure forms when she was pushing a petition to bar government employees from holding political office.

    = Nothing wrong with using laws you are opposed to against the corrupt.

    Janine Hansen is a real piece of work. She believes that those God Given Constitutional Rights extend only to hers, not to theirs. This is very evident when the issue is sexual orientation.

    = A women’s commission pushing a biased agenda really isn’t supporting ‘womens rights’ in general.

    The initiative filed Jan. 25 is called the Minority Status and Child Protection Act. Its provisions include banning teaching that homosexuality is acceptable behavior and would allow discrimination against homosexuals in jobs and housing.
    The initiative would change the Nevada Constitution to read that “objection to homosexuality is a liberty and right of conscience and shall not be considered discrimination relating to civil rights.”
    [. . .]

    = There is nothing wrong with this, employers can choose to hire or not hire whoever they want, and private owners of houses or apartments shouldn’t be forced to take in somebody they don’t want.

    Hansen said she has received anonymous threatening calls because of her work on the anti-gay rights initiative, and she believes she knows why:
    “Homosexuality is a death style, not a lifestyle,” she said. “I think when you become involved in perverse homosexual lust, your other values are consumed, especially as you become consumed by that lust.”

    = I heard one of her kids was molested by a lesbian before, so she has every right to think that. BTW, want to quote the Bible on Homosexuality, especially in Romans?

    Janine Hansen came out against repealing an ancient Nevada law, which made consensual sodomy a felony.
    The Senate voted 14-6 Friday to repeal the state law that prohibits homosexuals from engaging in certain sexual acts.

    = it shows she definably supports States Rights, and repealing laws like these does make homosexuality more mainstream.

    These are your “impeccable, mainstream conservative, credentials”?

    = Compared to Dean Rhoads, she’s the only conservative running.

    Janine Hansen is NOT a conservative; she’s a new-righty extremist,

    = According to a pathetic Leftist like you.

    and it’s people like her who have turned contemporary conservatism into the cesspool of repressed public potty-peeping hypocrisy that it is today.

    = So says the spin zone. It’s people like you that are the problem in Nevada, and America, pushing your toltalitarianistic PC crap down our throats. Janine also has done much to fight against the Patriot Act and other big government agendas. But a Major-party loving agent like you wants to keep up the idea of heaven being hell and hell being heaven.

  126. CQIAP

    Trent –
    With that said–she helped kick the theocrats out of CP.
    She did? Just what the hell are they now, if not theocrats?

    = Ever heard of a website called ‘The American View’?

    Independent American Party of Nevada Platform
    We, the members of the Independent American Party of Nevada, recognize that throughout human history most men have been slaves to man’s institutions of government; that through the providence of God, our American Forefathers, steeped in the traditions, values and discipline of Christianity, threw off the shackles of government by man; that Americans established a Constitutional Republic, a government of law, under God, rooted in Biblical law, which controlled and regulated government, liberating the people and making the government the servant of the people.
    Nope nothing theocratic here…move along citizens.

    =Exactly, even Ron Paul said our nation was founded on Christian principles, then again, it wouldn’t be ‘un-theocratic’ to you until the all the references to God are taken out, and its 100% secular, no trace or mention of religion at all.

    I live in Southern Nevada, so I cannot either vote for Rhoads or Hansen.

    = So why make Janine your problem? She’s not in your district, and she’d be the lone voice in the senate if elected.
    Then again, you want to see her defeated, don’t you. You would see that a unpopular GOP incumbent is reelected. How pathetic and fascist of you.

    It is myt state though, and the outcome of this election affects me.

    = Because you southern Nevadans want to make sure you have a hold on the state government.
    Yeah a single state senate race is going to affect you? What a load of crap!
    You’re nothing but a two-party cheerleader.

    You do not unerstand how Nevada works.

    = I do, and it wouldn’t work with people like you in charge.

    Southern Nevada pulls the brunt revenue weight for the whole state.

    = And us Northerners shouldn’t have a say?

    Hansen makes big talk about property, yet supports the theft of this county’s wealth in a redistribution scheme that aids the cow counties.

    = Now she’s a socialist? Please!

    She derides the iniquity and faggotry of Las Vegas, yet is happy to suckle off of its teat at the public treasury.

    = Ever heard of ‘Bleeding the Beast’?

    Hypocrisy and delusions of liberty under their own Personal Version (per.version) of a Christian God, which cannot be justified in the text of The Book they claim is the ultimate law.

    = Hypocrisy coming from a Leftist loon as yourself cannot be justified in The Book either.

    I have avoided direct assaults on the CP when posting here; have only commented briefly about their distorted sense of originalism, and their heretical religiosity; their repressed fears that homosexuality is some sort of communicable disease, which will affect their menfolk if tolerated.

    = Basically attacking the little guys with views you hate instead of attacking the big guys who actually oppress you, is your sense of logic.

    What kind of girliemen are members of the CP anyway,

    = What kind of loser like you has nothing better to do that attack people with views you cannot tolerate? You’re the bigot here- it runs both ways.

    who fret that they will turn gay by example? This is what leads to conservative men in tights secret ass coveting; it is what leads to public potty peeporama.

    = Blah, blah, blah….

    The rules changed when you brought these hypocritical assholes into my Nevada Bordello.

    = These ‘assholes’ are born and raised Nevadans, they have done more to fight the corruption in the state government then a whiney little internet Leftist bitch like you has on your excuse of a soap-box.

  127. CQIAP

    Many Nevadans presently registered in the IAP believe they have instead registered as non-affiliated voters, and that the IAP is well aware of this.

    = Funny how Janine received 90% of the IAP vote for SoS in 2006, or Joel got 190,000+ votes for Supreme court in 2004, or Jonathan Hansen got 80,000+ votes in a 2006 local county race. Jackie Berg won her election in a 3-way race against GOP and Libertarian candidates.
    However, if Nevadans are stupid enough to register for the name only, why is it that the highest percentage of Independent Americans are based in central Nevada (where residents know and understand politics well), like Eureka, Lyon, and Esmeralda, where IAP voters make up 5 to 6.5% of the voting population, while the percentage for Clark & Washoe county IAP’ers is only 4%?

    The IAP’s Sagebrush Rebellion bandwagoneering should also be understood to be a distortion of libertarian principles.

    = According to a distortion of Independent American principles.

    That’s a 4.9% discrepancy between the two figures, and in Nevada, 4.9% is not chump change: it’s 692,622,580 acres. Just how the hell have they come up with that figure anyway?

    = That probably was miswritten, that is one thing I do concede- the current party website is in really poor shape and the webmaster never has time to update it. However he will be stepping down and we’ll be getting a new webmaster soon. The Nevada Committee for Full Statehood, which has a lot of IAP’ers in its ranks doesn’t claim that 91% of the land is BLM.

  128. CQIAP

    CQIAP – Moron? That’s showing me how you turn the other cheek alright.

    = I’m also Irish, I don’t turn the ‘other cheek’.

    More Christian apostasy? Why am I not surprised. Better go to the mirror and check out that mote.
    As to your vehement homophobia. Shall we say King James at twent paces in you church parking lot, High-Noon next Sunday? Thou hypocrite!:
    Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
    Luke 6:37-39

    = Funny how you disobeyed those verses first, in fact- “For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.” -that applies to you.

    Bring it on!

    That’s right, I’m talkin’ to you, Stevie Wonder wannabe.

    = Quoth the Losertarian that can‘t find a Elko Free Press article at all. HA!

    Please offer citations from The Nation’s founding that would indicate your anti-immigrant xenophobia has anything whatsoever to do with “Original Intent”.

    = In the Constitution, doesn’t Congress have the privilege to regulate the laws of naturalization, and the states have the right to regulate immigration?

    As for the taxation ravening: yeah taxes are a bitch, but let’s put it in perspective:
    Nevada’s State/Local Tax Burden Second-Lowest in Nation
    During the past three decades, Nevada’s state and local tax burden has consistently ranked among the nation’s lowest. Currently estimated at 6.6% of income, Nevada’s state/local tax burden percentage ranks 49th highest nationally, well below the national average of 9.7%. Nevadans pay $3,245 per capita in state and local taxes.
    Source: The Tax Foundation

    = Funny how the same organization also claims:

    “Nevada’s Sales Tax Collections among the Highest in the Nation
    50-State Table of Sales and Excise Tax Rates
    50-State Table of State and Local General Sales and Gross Receipts Tax Collections Per Household and Per Capita, Fiscal Year 2005”

    = The 2003 tax increase that Dean voted for also increased Government spending, increasing its size by $900 million. And now look at the situation we’re in.

    It also worth noting that those cow county welfare ranchers, who graze their cattle on Federal lands paying less than the free-market rate for their lease, do not have to pony up any property taxes for its use. Nevada has no state income tax, no corporate tax. 61% of Nevada’s State Tax Revenue comes from sales tax and gaming tax (Source). Clark County (Las Vegas Metro) covers the rest of the state, but the cow counties bellow like fresh branded ruminants about their taxes. Cover your own slothful asses if you don’t like it, ok?

    = So the hard working rancher is a sloth compared to the typical internet-addicted pencil neck, or the holier-than-thou political junkie that knows nothing about Blue-Collar work? With 87% of the land under BLM control, ranchers can’t really choose where or where not to graze their cattle in the first place.

    Nevada’s legislature only meets once every other year, so it can only do 1/2 the damage.

    =Thank God.

    Nevada has a balanced budget amendment to its constitution. It takes a 2/3 majority in each of the legislative houses to pass the budget and any tax increase. In 2003, a budget was passed by 2/3 of the legislature, which required more revenue. Some of the legislators who voted for the budget, then turned around and shouted no new taxes! Anyone care to resolve this stupidity?

    = With the possibility if raising taxes again- vote Independent American :p

  129. CQIAP

    It’s people like PdSa that are the reason why the Nevada LP can’t get its act together.

    Word of advice: drop the self-righteous BS, stop bashing your typical Nevada voter and stop bashing other third-party campaigns (especially if they’re in a different district in another part of the state) and concentrate on your own party’s campaigns, otherwise, you minus well be a Republican, or Democrat, because there‘s no point to try to make others as miserable as you are and still want to end the two-party dominance.

    Do this and play nice, and the LP will someday pass the 10,000 reg. Voter mark.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published.