From the LP of Colorado blog:
Sen. Jennifer Veiga is not overly concerned about receiving coal in her stocking this year from some mom-and-pop liquor store owners.
While some smaller liquor retailers praised the senator from Denver this year for passing legislation that permitted the stores to open on Sundays, she may be receiving a few angry letters for pursuing legislation in the coming weeks that would permit convenience and grocery stores to compete by selling full-strength beer.
http://www.thedenverdailynews.com/article.php?aID=2810
This is a good step, but really the government has no business trying to micromanage alcohol sales.
Imagine for a second this kind of micromanaging being applied to any other product, even a controversial product like cigarettes. Imagine how silly it would seem to pass a law saying you cannot buy cigarettes between certain hours everyday and on Sundays you can only buy low tar cigarettes at one type of store, but at another type of store you can buy whatever kind of cigarette you want.
You agree that Jesus is a free market anarchist? Awesome!
I agree with Paulie’s comment number 10. As a Christian Socialist, I don’t like most morality laws, but I do like economic regulation, because people can be trusted even less to do the right thing economically than morally.
Paulie, Michael Merrifeld was the first Democrat in El Paso County elected to the state legislature in over a decade back in 2000, and has been re-elected a few times since. In Colorado Springs, reddest of the red areas in the state, where at one time the LP was outdoing the DP, this was an earth-shattering accomplishment and it pre-staged the state turning blue. Democrats conisder him a hero because he did what was though to be impossible. We’ve both met the guy and find him personally likable, even while disagreeing with some of his politics.
http://delawarelibertarian.blogspot.com/2008/12/taking-up-steves-challenge-part-1.html
http://delawarelibertarian.blogspot.com/2008/12/some-random-thoughts-on-religion-and.html
For those who don’t have time to read the whole article, in the pdf version you can jump to particular sections that address particular Bible passages, such as the one cited above.
I highly recommend reading the whole thing for context – but take a look at that particular chapter if that is all you can do.
Gene,
Redford deals effectively with Romans 13:1-7, and many other passages that have been widely misinterpreted. You should read his article if you ever have or plan on having these kinds of discussions with Christians, even if you are of an entirely different religion (or no religion) yourself.
However, it is nearly a defining characteristic of the brand of conservatism in El Paso County (Colorado Springs and vicinity, for this discussion eastern El Paso/ Liberty County does not really count) There are some 100 organizations dealing with evangelical Christianity in that area and it’s not too much to say that their views used to completely saturate area politics. (not so much post-Merrifeld)
I’m familiar with everything you said except for Merrifield. Dunno who/what that is or what happened.
The general gist that I have gotten from those who support morality laws is that people just cannot be trusted to do the right thing. However, they have nearly complete trust in the law (who, I try to tell them, are also just people) to do the right thing if they are led by God. And there is a pervasive sense that the police, judges, etc are Godly and the populace is not. Essentially I think they project their view of Jesus/God onto the nearest available authority and trust that “He†will save their society.
The piece I linked addresses all that. We’ll need to find ways to distill that message to a length more people are willing to read, and write up versions which are less explicitly anarchist and find effective ways to distribute them in the Christian community.
The message in Redford’s piece which I linked is true, and I have never even seen anyone take it head on and refute it – I would love to see them try. They usually just say it is too long, or respond to the title negatively without reading it.
Well that particular Scripture sure does accurately reflect my observations. I’d completely forgotten about it in the 13 or so years since I’ve left the Church.
Ladygaura @11 sayeth:
The general gist that I have gotten from those who support morality laws is that people just cannot be trusted to do the right thing. However, they have nearly complete trust in the law (who, I try to tell them, are also just people) to do the right thing if they are led by God. And there is a pervasive sense that the police, judges, etc are Godly and the populace is not. Essentially I think they project their view of Jesus/God onto the nearest available authority and trust that “He†will save their society.
The reason is Romans 13:1-7
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
The second reason is due to intellectual laziness on the part of many people. They are used to what they grew up with and frankly, they don’t want their thinking processes or beliefs to be challenged.
Paulie, I agree that blue laws and other similar types of laws do not work to keep the sheeple in line or in church very well. I certainly do not espouse or endorse them.
However, it is nearly a defining characteristic of the brand of conservatism in El Paso County (Colorado Springs and vicinity, for this discussion eastern El Paso/ Liberty County does not really count) There are some 100 organizations dealing with evangelical Christianity in that area and it’s not too much to say that their views used to completely saturate area politics. (not so much post-Merrifeld)
The general gist that I have gotten from those who support morality laws is that people just cannot be trusted to do the right thing. However, they have nearly complete trust in the law (who, I try to tell them, are also just people) to do the right thing if they are led by God. And there is a pervasive sense that the police, judges, etc are Godly and the populace is not. Essentially I think they project their view of Jesus/God onto the nearest available authority and trust that “He” will save their society.
Again I don’t believe, endorse, or condone any of this thinking, it is merely what I have observed over the years. Mike and I have occasionally been at the business end of those attitudes, so we know personally just how A ineffective and B) threatening they really are.
I wonder why some “Christians” think it’s the government’s job to keep their congregation in line? If they have any long-term thinkers among them, they should take a look at demographic trends, which should be enough to convince them to come out firmly on the side of religious liberty, if for no other reason than their own self-protection.
Alternative, they may wish to study their own Bible in some more detail:
http://praxeology.net/anarchist-jesus.pdf
It’s probably important to add here that Colorado’s “blue alcohol” laws are one area where the general libertarian streak of the state disappears. For the longest time the only way to get a drink on Sunday involved a saloon or bar. I always thought (as in long before I knew what a Libertarian was) that this law tended to increase DUI and other such irresponsibility. My dad (a Colorado resident for 35 years) was a semi-alcoholic for years (and not so semi when I was young) and I can remember him going to a bar on Sunday, or else stocking up on beer on Saturday. He didn’t for one second consider not drinking on Sunday (despite the badgering of his teetotalling and very pious wife)
I believe it was Jim Vance (thinking of ya, whereever you’re at these days, my friend) who first proposed the idea of reverse incrementalism to the LPCO crowd. I admit I didn’t believe him at first but I’ve since taken the idea to heart, especially when public fear runs rampant on an issue (a lot of Christians in the state feel that lessening the laws any will promote more people skipping church on Sunday and thus deepening moral decay– to which I might add that we’ve had several interesting run ins with drunk Christians on Sundays– it doesn’t matter a bit, they will find a way to get a drink!!)
Catholic Trotskyist // Dec 24, 2008 at 2:05 am
No, it is most important to preserve the small business over the big corporation. Such as is the greatness of socialism.
Actually, freedom of choice on a level playing field is best. Major big box companies who come to town demanding tax incentives and that the municipality widen access roads and so forth (at taxpayer expense) clearly establishes an uneven playing field that many mom and pop stores cannot compete on. If all taxpayer-funded incentives were removed, then the playing field would be more competitive, which results in better selection and lower prices. Such is the greatness of the invisible hand.
hmm. It appears that I posted in the wrong section ha. oh well
Anarchist*
that’s the best way to be imo. I’ve referred to myself as ancap, but why bother, really, just makes yourself a target. Just be an anti-state anarchist
And, no, left-anarchists are not anarchists, they’e just statists disguised as such. They want MORE taxes and gov programs!
I’m just an Anarchism without adjectives
Are you really an anarchist, Paulie? All I ever see you do is defend left-anarchists and global warming delusionists.
No, it is most important to preserve the small business over the big corporation. Such as is the greatness of socialism.
I agree with Mike. Frankly, I hope the Colorado legislature backs Sen. Veiga on this. It’s not full freedom, but wouldn’t it be nice for consumers have *more* freedom of choice?
Sounds more like she wants to incrementally roll back the restrictions to level the playing field. Very little wrong with that.