Jim Reef is collecting signatures on a petition to be delivered to the Libertarian National Committee at this weekend’s business meeting in St. Louis. The petition reads in full:
To: Libertarian National Committee
We, the delegates of the 2008 Libertarian National Convention in Denver, do hereby direct the Libertarian National Committee to censure Aaron Starr for his release of confidential donor information in his memo entitled “Further Information in the Matter of R. Lee Wrights” dated April 21, 2009 and for the abuse of his position as our elected Treasurer.We have given the Libertarian Party financial information with the understanding that it will not be revealed to the public, except as required by law. We consider Aaron Starr’s actions to be a breach of his fiduciary duties.
We denounce the abuse of Party member Sean Haugh, and our elected At-Large Representative, R. Lee Wrights, and request a written apology from Aaron Starr to Mr. Wrights, Mr. Sean Haugh, the delegates, the National Committee, and all members of the Libertarian Party.
We further advise the National Committee to cease this unproductive behavior and get down to the business of education, organizing and campaigns.
Sincerely,
The Undersigned
@ 56. Thanks Chris. I have heard the phrase, but never heard of the game show.
TK _ Thanks for the on the cheap page , pretty cool:) and def my style.
Now that is something useful in getting moe folks to attend . good job
Susan, only if you have the time in between rounds. I do.
Part of playing the game is psychological, too.
The game was Press Your Luck.
Peter what game show was that from?
MW
Seebeck,
“you need to learn how the game is played”
I suspect that the game is hardly ever played by people repeating over and over ‘you need to learn how the game is played’ 😉
Peter and LG,
The national conventions are, in my experience, ALWAYS fun.
I’ve been to four of them, only one of them (2002) being an “off-year” convention. Since I generally work for presidential candidates ever four years, I had MORE fun since I had less work to do.
Yes, there IS work to do at a convention, but there are also parties, bull sessions, etc. Basically, you get to spend several days surrounded by a thousand people who think somewhat like you and are interested in many of the same things.
At this point, I might as well put a plug in for my new web site: St. Louis On The Cheap.
I plan to eventually expand it to a general audience, but right now it is entirely aimed at making it cheaper for people to attend the 20101 convention — food, lodging, transportation and parking, tourist attractions, etc.
po, Portland — an “off year” convention — was certainly satisfying for me, and pleasantly surprising.
me neither , but Ill be there.
Peter , please become a delegate . THAT is the place for getting the leadership we need . Conventioneering is EVERYTHING.
P_Practically speaking, I believe it is a dead issue
me , then i look foward to the customary beating of the dead horse
I believe their goal was 100 by the St. Louis LNC meeting. However, so far as I know, the LNC is not obligated to consider the issue no matter how many people sign, although it may suade some members to vote to consider it if a lot of people sign. If I am wrong about the first part someone can correct me.
Practically speaking, I believe it is a dead issue as far as LNC consideration this term. I do not believe the threatened litigation will take place, either. But I expect it to be a campaign issue at the next LNC election.
Theoretically, if a lot more people signed, it could be brought up again at the next meeting and one or more LNC member who voted to strike could change their mind, putting it on the agenda. But I do not believe this to have any real likelihood of actually happening.
Whatever, LG. Arguing with you is pointless. I never played D&D–found it kinda lame, actually. I prefer older and more complicated games like Chess. How many opening moves are there? 13. How many second moves is a function of the first move response. Calculating ahead like that is done by students of the game, Grand Masters, and Deep Blue. It is also a major mental challenge, and it trains the mind to think both strategically and tactically.
No, Aaron isn’t some sort of evil genius. Not even close. But as was pointed out here before, brilliance and competence are not the same thing. He’s simply not competent as a political leader. He’s looking at things from his own perspective of short-term personal gain, not overall Party good. That’s been the problem behind the Reformers all along, because they are unable to see holistically. They simply don’t understand the dynamic needed to be productive and how to get there, and are stuck on the “my-way-or-the-highway” mindset.
That’s not arrogance or egotism, LG. (And they are different things, too.) That’s simply the ability to step back from a situation and analyze it from a broader perspective–something a lot of people seem to lack anymore, as it is core to critical thinking skills.
Most of the things we’ve “tangled” about have wound up with you being on the short end of it. This one, too.
The difference between politics and warfare is the civility level and type of weapons, nothing more.
how many do they need , and is it a moot point after St L?
anyone know how many sigs this petition got?
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?StarApol
currently 49 minus (I think) 4 voided lines; haven’t looked to see if there are duplicates.
Mike the reason I call you egotistical is not for the reason you say . Its for several reasons , some of which we’ve tangled about , that leave NO DOUBT ass to your arrogance .
No , mike you are egotistical , lots of people think so.
second , i still claim getting Aaron to say sorry is kindergarden-ish .
3rdly you assume he hasnt responded to personal attacks because he’s covering his ass or concocting his next scheme .
LOL , you do know this isnt a Dungeon and Dragons game right?
maybe the man is busy working or doing other productive things…
seriously you make him out to be some evil genuis and its funny , we need to ake a cartoon strip out of it.lol
Isn’t ironic that if someone else calls you self-confident and assured and knowing your stuff that it’s a compliment, but if you say it about yourself, all of a sudden it’s being egotistical?
Seems to me the definition of being egotistical needs some serious review. Either that or people need to remove an expectation of self-humiliation…
It’s OK to say you’re OK, people.
As I said, LG, you need to learn the game. Of Politics. Of how politicians work and operate. And of political psychology. And of political tactics.
Calling me egotistical just illustrates your naivete. You mistake confidence and self-assurance with ego. I am quite comfortable in who I am and what I stand for, and no uninformed tantrum by you will change that. If you think that’s ego, that’s your problem. Considering you don’t know jack about me in the slightest, that’s not surprising.
You call Starr a “pillar of maturity?” I can list a lot of people who know otherwise from personal experience, far more than you, both inside and outside the party’s operations, going back to his college years. He doesn’t respond because he’s too busy either covering his own behind or concocting his next scheme.
An apology wins everything, including respect and admitting that one can be wrong, which is a politician’s biggest strength, even if they mistakenly think it’s a fatal weakness.
Unfortunately he is unable to see that. Apparently so are you.
anyone know how many sigs this petition got?
MS__LG @26, you need to learn how the game is played. Getting them to say they’re sorry is the ultimate in political humiliation to those who have egos the size of the state they’re from. For those without the egos, not so much.
In an ideal world, political maneuvering and posturing would not be necessary. But this isn’t an ideal world, and it is necessary.
Had the thin-skinned egos in the Starr Chamber simply learned to grow up some, none of this would be necessary. But their smallness in stature and vision prevented them from doing that, so here we are.
me_ there are so many things wrong with your statement i dont know where to begin…
first i need to learn the game? what game is that Divided and Conquered?
second forcing an apology is not the ultimate in political humiliation. thats reserved for the LP every election cycle.
maybe if your clinton or someone else powerful it can make an embarrassing scene , but making Aaron apologize would not be a monumental feat or a decisive victory. Its sad that you think that .
when you say ‘thse w/o egos’ I KNOW yo arent referring to yourself . all kidding aside you have one of the largest egos ive ever come across
the last paragraph , where you say Starr andCo need to grow up , um hello mcfly , take your own advice .
I think Aaron has been a pillar of maturity at least in not responding to the relentless personal attacks ,
an apology wins us nothing, divided and conquered we are.
Spot on.
It only takes one.
Those who blame “both sides” usually have blinders on.
Usually a fight can be completely avoided by an aggressor simply deciding to holster his weapon.
Robert @22:
Since you weren’t paying attention then, as usual, the push was to completely reverse the removal and related subsequent motions, and that is exactly what happened. The only point that was not very good besides only being a 4-3 ruling, was that the delegates petition was improperly denied.
LG @26, you need to learn how the game is played. Getting them to say they’re sorry is the ultimate in political humiliation to those who have egos the size of the state they’re from. For those without the egos, not so much.
In an ideal world, political maneuvering and posturing would not be necessary. But this isn’t an ideal world, and it is necessary.
Had the thin-skinned egos in the Starr Chamber simply learned to grow up some, none of this would be necessary. But their smallness in stature and vision prevented them from doing that, so here we are.
LG,
The idea that it takes two to fight is a myth.
Correct, WE are the LP. And I’m not waiting.
Agorism makes a lot of sense to me, but I still think the LP has its uses.
Good points.
@28 YOU are the LP. Don’t wait for them to make things better because you’ll be waiting an awfully long time.
This is one reason why agorism is appealing to me more and more as each day goes by.
today it seems to me the LP is a irrelevant joke and we are only spinning wheels , i hope tomorrow is better
GT__All the bickering, fighting, posturing and attempts at “reforms” are only distracting from the issue at hand: our liberty is rapidly vanishing.
me__fucking exactly!!!!
this ridiculous , useless infighting is wearing very thin. hypocrites the players on both sides of the infighting are . hypocrites and LP killers .
so fucking tired
MS_Yes, I signed the petition, right at #2. And I’d do it again in a heartbeat, every time, until these clowns shape up or ship out.
me _ exactly what will an apology accomplish or the energy expelled trying to get it , t advance liberty ?
its a waste of time , just like trying to get an apology from angela was a waste of time .
for christs sake when will people stop advocating useless wastes of time?
amen Chuck .
It was my understanding, Chuck, that this information should not be shared even among the LNC members. Your opinion on this?
I didn’t sign the petition because Aaron only released the information to the LNC; he did not leak it to the world.
I sympathize with Sean about wanting his donor record corrected (Aaron clearly is misinterpreting FEC rules) and with those who want an apology for all this nonsense, but at some point you have to cut your losses (or victories arguably), stop dwelling on the past, and move forward with important LP business. I’d rather this LNC meeting be dedicated to building the Party and electing Libertarians than more motions about Wrights.
The time to hold people accountable for their bad decisions is at the 2010 LP national convention in St. Louis.
ms, while I’m not one to view things dualistically as “winners” and “losers,” but it seemed like “duesgate” was more or less a draw. Refresh our memory, but weren’t you pushing for a sterner finding from JudComm…
First of all, “not a shred of evidence” is utter bullshit. Anyone who has read my timeline of Duesgate, with its ample references to here, know that it was emphatically rebutted by LPMI member Leonard Schwartz, who is also a campaign finance attorney on April 25.
That means Starr (assuming that it’s really him @1-2) either didn’t read the timeline or is simply lying.
Second, there is no indication that the memo itself was leaked by Wrights. I get leaks from various sources all the time, sources not on the LNC. Many others do, too. (It’s a benefit of being connected to the right people. :)) They get leaked why? A) The tomfoolery, B) What Knapp said above @9. You can and should stop A), but B) remains universally true; and as such the leaks will continue until the LNC wises up and starts acting more transparent and above-board.
Yes, I signed the petition, right at #2. And I’d do it again in a heartbeat, every time, until these clowns shape up or ship out.
8 LNC members went up against me, Lee, George, and Mary in Duesgate and lost. You’d think they would get the message that they’re on the losing side. Apparently they haven’t.
Gene,
Yes!
As David Nolan put it at http://www.nolanchart.com/article6640.html
Herewith, my best wishes to the members of Libertarian National Committee as it convenes for business in St. Louis, Missouri. You are voluntarily spending your own time and resources to advance the cause of liberty in America, and I commend you all for your commitment.
I hope that you will proceed in a spirit of amity, and urge you to use your time productively. Do not waste it on internal bickering, attempts to censure or expel other Libertarians, and other such trivia. Our country is in deep trouble. Now, more than ever before, the Libertarian Party must offer a coherent and compelling alternative to the stale policies of statism. People are ready to hear our message — if that message is stated clearly and boldly. The success of Ron Paul’s 2008 campaign and its outgrowth, the Campaign for Liberty, show that millions of Americans are hungry for real change.
I wasn’t a Denver delegate and am no fan of Starr, but I still wouldn’t have signed the petition. It’s not going to accomplish anything POSITIVE. The LNC has to collapse before it can be rebuilt. All the bickering, fighting, posturing and attempts at “reforms” are only distracting from the issue at hand: our liberty is rapidly vanishing.
I tend to agree; however, Starr is grown up enough to know that there are ways to handle certain things, and there are ways you don’t. If you want to say you seek collegiality, then don’t breed resentment with your actions.
An apology from the full LNC would probably improve the atmosphere; it would be a statement that says “we’re all going to try to do things better in the future.”
I think that would be appropriate as well. Proper warnings should also be required. The excuses as to why the renewal notices didn’t get to him rang rather lame & hollow. Or partisan.
Marc and Matt,
Agreed, but that is not what is being discussed now. As best I can tell, the issue now is that Haugh and Wrights’ donor information was widely distributed, and Starr reasonably responds that he did not intend for it to be widely distributed. LOL points out that Haugh and Wrights helped to distribute it themselves. Thus, I don’t understand the purpose of this, other than yet another round of the Hatfields and McCoys.
Matt,
Give me a call – need to talk to you real quick.
“One of Starr’s big blunders was claiming that Haugh paying the dues of another is an illegal act.”
Correct. When this happened, I had to call into question Mr. Starr’s knowledge of FEC regulations.
The sort of contribution data that AS revealed about Wrights and Haugh isn’t really private though. That stuff is reported publicly to the good ole’ gubmint.
Haugh certainly has his moments, like the proverbial broken clock — right twice a day. In this one case, I think his writeup is spot on.
One of Starr’s big blunders was claiming that Haugh paying the dues of another is an illegal act. Starr knows damn well that simply isn’t true. I explained here on IPR why it wasn’t true shortly after he originally made the claim. There is even an FEC Advisory Opinion that spelled this out — and if Starr is really as well-versed in FEC regulations as he should be, he should already know the truth.
The gist was that as long as the filing committee books the revenue to the donor who actually owned the funds, it doesn’t give a rat’s ass what the committee does with the money. That means as long as Haugh is recorded (and reported according to FEC regs) as the donor, it can be used by the party to pay his favorite petitioner, buy a chicken sandwich, pay for limo rides for the presidential candidate, or to buy an extended expiration date for another member.
Following Starr’s line brings one to the conclusion that the state affiliates that had sent checks to LPHQ for national dues of their members were also acting illegally.
agree with PC. If an apology should come, I’d suggest it come from the LNC itself. Less of a finger-pointing exercise.
I’d also suggest a resolution that clarifies for future LNCs that:
1) Staff should report on renewals for LNC membership expirations.
2) That lapses of membership require a full LNC votes to unseat a Board member.
Or something.
“Libertarians… hating each other intently since 1971.”
Im not signing the petition , its stupid unimportant posturing .
I’m not inclined to sign it either. Not just because Haugh damn near killed me last winter, either.
Regardless of whether LNC communications should be private, and I think Tom makes a good case on that (the counter-argument I have heard is that if the list is opened the LNC will go to informal private emails that do not go to all committee members), the fact is that Starr did not intend his memo to be distributed widely, thus holding him accountable for something he did not intend does not make sense to me.
I did in fact sign the petition that Wrights should not have been kicked off the committee because it seemed to me to be petty abuse of a dubious technicality in order to nullify the results of the Denver election, and because Keaton’s replacement was handled in a way that altered the balance on the committee.
At this point, however, Wrights is back on the committee, and attempts to exact revenge, apologies, restitution, etc. seem to me like wastes of time and attempts to needlessly prolong a quarrel, and smack of continued discipline of a deceased barn animal.
The committee should focus on plans for better ballot access, youth outreach, field organizing, fundraising, more effective use and distribution of youtubes – anything but the same old “bullshit that comes up every time there is an LNC meeting” as A Girl Who Knows said.
The LNC discussion list is not only available to the LNC members and alternates, but also available to LPHQ staff and certain vendors’ and their employees.
It is subject to inadvertent forwarding.
Any ISP along the way can monitor the traffic.
Beyond that, anyone with half a brain knows how easy it is to hack such a list.
Claiming that material published to that list is not de facto being made public is dishonest and in itself a subject for censure.
LOL:
The LNC discussion list is not “private,” however much some members of the LNC might wish it was and however violent their temper tantrums to that effect may be.
That list is a proceeding — an official proceeding, from which action can be taken — of the Libertarian National Committee. It is, in other words, the property of the party, and the party’s members are fully entitled to view any traffic which is transmitted on it. They work for us, see — not the other way around.
Anything the LNC wouldn’t want to see published to the public, LNC members shouldn’t be saying on that list — and anything they don’t say on that list, with the exception of legitimate executive session material (for which another venue should be established) should be of no effect with respect to action (e.g. not a legitimate basis for making a motion, etc.).
Hopefully the next LNC regime will come to Jesus and create a publicly accessible, read-only mirror of the list.
Until that happens, the best thing would be for LNC members to boycott the list and contest any actions taken pursuant to discussion on it. The second best thing would be for one or more LNC members to set up an automatic forwarding gizmo to post ALL of the list’s traffic publicly. The third best thing, which is what happens now, is that when something important happens, one or more LNC members leak the relevant traffic.
This is too funny! I mean, Haugh and Wrights took this memo that apparently was sent to a private email list in a confidential discussion, Haugh wrote a story, and Wrights posted it on the internet here:
http://www.libertyforall.net/?p=2433
…and they’re complaining that the info was made public??!!?? They published it, themselves. That’s hilarious! Maybe they can help OJ Simpson look for the “real killer”.
I signed the petition, albeit with certain reservations.
I’m not so much interested in seeing Mr. Starr censured by the LNC as I am interested in ensuring that between now and next summer, his record of abuse, malfeasance and incompetence in the office of treasurer is exhaustively revealed, against the possibility that he might seek re-election to that office or some other position of party leadership.
As Dr. Phillies recently pointed out, the Starr cabal has moved beyond normal internal politics and into outright political warfare. The opposition must eschew pacifism in the face of aggression and ensure that if it’s to be war, that war is hell on both sides, not just one.
This is the same bullshit that comes up every time there is an LNC meeting. What a waste of time.
Im not signing the petition , its stupid unimportant posturing .
Haugh and Wrights are a couple of crybabies who are just upset because they got exposed.
What a bunch of crap. There is NO WAY that Aaron Starr should apologize for this.
As far as I know, Aaron Starr is not even the one who leaked the memo. Whether he did or not is not even relavent. I think that party members should know that Wrights couldn’t even come up with his own $25 minimum donation and that Haugh – who was at that time an employee for LP National – paid Wrights’ – who was at that time a candidate for the LNC – dues for him. I’d call that a conflict of interest and party members should be informed about this.
Also, there are plenty of websites that post donor information. There’s FEC.gov, and there’s also OpenSecrets, Huffington Post, Campaign Money, City Watch, and some others. This is not top secrety information.
The second sentence should have read:
It should have been obvious to both Wrights and anyone on the LNC reading it at the time that it was not intended for further dissemination.
Aaron Starr
Treasurer
For the record, the memo in question was distributed only to the LNC and to Lee Wrights, and involved a discussion of confidential FEC matters.
It should have been obvious to both Wrights anyone on the LNC reading it at the time that it was not intended for further dissemination.
And yet, here it shows up on this website.
https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/04/lnc-memo-wrights-was-not-member-when-elected/
I stand by every word I wrote in that memo as being factual. And while I’ve heard many howls of protest, no one has ever presented a shred of evidence to indicate otherwise.
Aaron Starr
Treasurer