Former Democratic and Republican Governors Demand that Independents Join the Democratic or Republican Parties

In recent days, both former Republican Governor of Alaska Sarah Palin and the former Democratic Governor of Kentucky, Julian Carroll, have issued demands that independents join the Democratic or Republican Parties.  In a recent speech, Palin instructed independent tea party activists:

“Now the smart thing will be for independents who are such a part of this Tea Party movement to, I guess, kind of start picking a party,” Palin said. “Which party reflects how that smaller, smarter government steps to be taken? Which party will best fit you? And then because the Tea Party movement is not a party, and we have a two-party system, they’re going to have to pick a party and run one or the other: ‘R’ or ‘D’.”

In Kentucky, independent activists have launched an effort to open Democratic and Republican primaries to independent voters.  Ryan Jaroncyk reports at CAIVN:

independents scored a huge victory for more open primaries in the Kentucky state senate.  Despite strong opposition from Democrats, the Kentucky Senate voted to allow registered independents the opportunity to participate in the primary elections.  The vote moves to the Kentucky House where Democrats comprise a majority, putting passage in jeopardy. Independent Kentucky, a grassroots nonpartisan organization, is leading the growing effort to allow the tens of thousands of registered independents a voice in the primary elections.

Also at CAIVN, Chad Peace sums up former Kentucky Governor, and sitting State Senator Julain Carroll’s response to the initiative:

You won’t believe this until you see it.  In a stunning admission, former Governor of Kentucky and current State Senator Julian Carroll admitted, “I could care less what [independents] want…we operate democracy in this country with a two-party system.”  These comments were expressed following an interview with independent activist Michael Lewis, where the Senator suggested that if independents don’t like the way the political system is run, they should “leave the country”, and by pushing for open primaries, independents were trying to “destroy the two-party system.”

Video of Carroll’s statements begins at the 1:20 mark or so.  Thanks to the Hankster for the links.

0 thoughts on “Former Democratic and Republican Governors Demand that Independents Join the Democratic or Republican Parties

  1. NewFederalist

    I agree with Thane above just as long as independent (and other party) voters don’t have to pay for a state operated primary election. Otherwise, everyone should be allowed to participate.

  2. Eric Dondero

    “Demand”? That’s quite a strong description for what should really be described as “suggest.” There was no “demand” from either of them. Just appeals.

  3. Eric Dondero

    And besides, Sarah Palin is no stranger to third party movements. She’s been a fan and even participant in the Libertarian Party in past years. In 2005/06 she was the guest speaker at two Libertarian Party meetings in Anchorage. She accepted the endorsement of the leadership of the Libertarian Party in her 2006 race for Governor. There’s indications that her relationship with the LPA even goes as far back as the middle-1990s, when according to the Boston Globe, her campaign manager was a “Libertarian.”

    I don’t think Sarah Palin is as down on third parties as you are trying to portray here.

  4. jason

    Not supporting the two-party system is unpatriotic, just like not supporting the one-party system in Nazi Germany or Communist China is unpatriotic.

  5. Stanton

    I demand that the Republican and Democratic Parties be disbanded, but that ain’t gonna happen.

  6. Richard Winger

    When Sarah Palin says “We have a two-party system” and uses that to justify asking everyone to become either a Republican or a Democrat, she is misusing the definition of “two-party system.” That term was coined in 1911 to describe the British party system. It means a system in which two particular parties are bigger than all the others, not a system in which only two parties exist or have legitimacy. Ironically, a few years after 1911, the British two-party system shifted from being a two-party system in which the Conservative and Liberal Parties were the biggest parties, to one in which the Conservative and Labour Parties were the biggest parties. I can’t blame Sarah Palin for misunderstanding the term “two-party system”, though, because so many other people also don’t understand it.

    It is bizarre that Palin would say what she did recently, when her husband was a member of the Alaskan Independence Party for so long.

  7. Michael Cavlan RN

    Sarah Palin

    Further proof that the Tea Party Movement have become neo-conned..

    lets see how people react.

  8. Eric Dondero

    Funny you say that Libertarian Girl.

    Be curious to know where you were in early 2006, during the Republican Primary in Alaska for Governor. 5 candidates, including incumbent, the dreaded dirty trickster Governor Frank Murkowski.

    Well, a rumor was started in Republican circles. It was thought to have come from the Murkoswki camp, but was never proven.

    “Sarah Palin is a Libertarian, she’s really not a Republican… And you do know she’s a closet supporter of marijuana legalization.”

    Yup, that was the word on the street during the entire 2006 Gubernatorial race up in Alaska.

    Oh, and I was there, on the ground at the time.

    Wonder where you and other so-called “Libertarian” critics of Palin were back then?

    Why no press releases attacking Murkowski and those who were spreading the rumor?

    Can’t have it both ways.

    You can’t sit there and bash Sarah Palin as “not a Libertarian,” at the same time, she’s being bashed by Conservatives as “being really a Libertarian, and not a Conservative.”

    Which is it???

  9. Ross Levin

    Eric, there’s no reason why that can’t be the case. If her rhetoric is vaguely libertarian and interpreted by people who don’t understand libertarianism as libertarian, then that explains the perception. But she isn’t actually a libertarian, so that’s where that comes from.

  10. Eric Dondero

    Here’s just a partial list of some of Sarah Palin’s Libertarian supporters in her 2006 Campaign for Governor:

    Libertarian Party Chairman Jason Dowell
    Libertarian Party Vice-Chair Zach (??)
    Wife of Libertarian Party Secretary Rob (??)
    Partial support from Rob, Weekly Anochorage Libertarian Supper Club Host
    Billy Toien, Libertarian Party candidate for Governor of Alaska, and Sarah Palin opponent in 2006

    (Note – Jason, Zach and Rob backing Palin amounted to a virtual endorsement by the LPA Board, since the only other member at the time, was unavailable serving in the US Army in Iraq.)

    For the record, the only dissenter from the Palin endorsement within the Alaska LP at the time was militant Anarchist Alex Keeton. You might be interested to know that Keeton now sits in the Alaska Penitentiary for murder of a friend of his ex-girlfriend in early 2008.

    (Longtime LPA-er Scott Kolhaas was estranged from the Libertarian Party at the time, and did not participate at all in Party proceedings during 2006).

  11. Bruce Cohen

    I would rather have Sarah Palin calling herself a Libertarian than a Republican.

    I would rather have Sarah BE a Libertarian instead of a Republican.

    I don’t agree with her on everything, but I haven’t agreed with a lot of Libertarians on everything.

    Big picture, people who want to move the political ball in the Libertarian direction of more freedom in all respects are good by me and I want to figure out how and when to work with them, not against them..

    To reject someone because of a ‘feeling’ or a label is counterproductive.

    I would dare say a Sarah Palin Presidency would be a lot better than a McCain, or Obama or Bush or Gore or Clinton one.

    But, that’s just my ‘feeling’.

    Oh, and it’s actually impossible for Sarah to be a ‘NeoCon’. She’s never been a Liberal. And by Defenition, Neo = New, or ‘newly’ here, while ‘Con’ is of course, an abbreviation for ‘Conservative’.

    And being in disagreement on Foreign Policy doesn’t make one a warmonger, just like being a Zionist doesn’t make one either.

    If you disagree me or Sarah or Wayne here and there, awesome! I have learned more from people who DIS agree than from people who agree.

    But to label any of us such specious ways is a waste of everyone’s time.

    Unless it makes you feel better.
    Which I suspect it sometimes might.

    And if you need an imaginary enemy to fight for your ego, instead of doing the real work of fighting for freedom, instead of against fellow freedom fighters.

    Sarah Palin and Wayne Root are not the enemy.
    Barak Obama and the IRS are.

    (Planes don’t kill people, the Government does.)

  12. Eric Dondero

    Ross, I would humbly disagree. It depends on your definition of libertarian.

    If you’re talking Radical Libertarian, than yes, I would most certainly agree Sarah Palin is NOT! a Radical Libertarian.

    But if you’re talking Mainstream Libertarian, than I would say, that she not only fits that description, but is perhaps the best exemplar of that description in the entire United States, along with maybe Marco Rubio, Steve Forbes, Larry Kudwell, Andrew Breitbart, Rep. Tom McClintock, Rep. Jeff Flake, et.al.

    Why should Radical Libertarians have a monopoly on the term? Mainstream Libertarians have just as much right to use the term as the Radicals.

  13. Eric Dondero

    ADDENDUM:

    Even Radical Libertarian Tom Knapp praised Palin’s election in 2006.

    And other hardline Libertarians like Vin Suprynowicz are Palin backers.

  14. Eric Dondero

    Ross, I have long supported the idea that being described as a libertarian has much more to do with just one’s particular ideology.

    I support the “Three Stool” approach to libertarian identification:

    1. Issues and Ideology – general agreement with libertarian principles.

    2. Active Affiliation – Membership in the Libertarian Party, Republican Liberty Caucus or financial supporter of the Cato Institute, et.al.

    3. Attendance – Has said individual ever attended and/or participated in explicitly Libertarian events.

    I put a great, great, great deal of importance on #3. If a mainstream politician goes out of their way to attend a Libertarian Party meeting, for example, than I think they have a MAJOR! right to associate themselves with the libertarian label. Maybe not always, but at the very least “libertarian-leaning.”

    On that score, we know for sure of two local Libertarian Party meetings that Sarah Palin attended in 2005/06 – Anchorage Libertarian Weekly Supper Club.

    The fact that she was one of the ONLY! mainstream politicians in Alaska at the time to show up to a meeting of 10 – 12 Geeky Libertarians at Denny’s on North Star, with them for 2 hours says a lot.

  15. paulie

    I would rather have Sarah Palin calling herself a Libertarian than a Republican.

    I would rather have Sarah BE a Libertarian instead of a Republican.

    Only in the same sense as I would rather have Obama or Clinton be a Libertarian. She would have to change most of her views first, otherwise it would be fraud.

    I don’t agree with her on everything, but I haven’t agreed with a lot of Libertarians on everything.

    I would agree with Libertarians (even Bruce Cohen) far, far more than I would with Palin.

    Big picture, people who want to move the political ball in the Libertarian direction of more freedom in all respects are good by me and I want to figure out how and when to work with them, not against them..

    Palin would not be one of those.

    To reject someone because of a ‘feeling’ or a label is counterproductive.

    I would dare say a Sarah Palin Presidency would be a lot better than a McCain, or Obama or Bush or Gore or Clinton one.

    But, that’s just my ‘feeling’.

    Not mine. If anything, she would be worse.

    Worse on social issues/civil liberties.

    Worse on foreign policy/military spending.

    Worse on corporate giveaways.

    Oh, and it’s actually impossible for Sarah to be a ‘NeoCon’. She’s never been a Liberal. And by Defenition, Neo = New, or ‘newly’ here, while ‘Con’ is of course, an abbreviation for ‘Conservative’.

    Not all neocons are former liberals. They are just followers of a political tradition started by former liberals who are socially conservative and are foreign policy hawks. They are also more tolerant of big government social spending than are traditional conservatives. See wikipedia.

    Also, see wikipedia for “neoliberal.” The term refers to a new strand, not people who were personally themselves necessarily something other than liberal.

    Sarah Palin and Wayne Root are not the enemy.
    Barak Obama and the IRS are.

    Sarah Palin is at least as much the enemy as is Barack Obama.

    Neither of them delivers on the smaller-government portion of their campaign promises.

  16. Eric Dondero

    And Paulie, what makes you think you’re a Libertarian able to judge who is and who is not really a “Libertarian.”

    My understanding of your political philosophy from others, and what you’ve posted here, has you as a radical Leftist Liberal and/or Progressive, anything but a Libertarian.

    I also know that your personal dealings are about as far from being Libertarian as one could possibly get.

    I also know that you’re a relatively Newbie to the Libertarian Party. Weren’t around in the glory days of the 1980s. And have very little history with our movement.

    So, it’s the utter height of absurdity for you – a non-Libertarian to be judging someone like Sarah Palin on their libertarian-essness.

    Eric Dondero, Former Libertarian National Committee member
    Fmr. Executive Board Member, Libertarian Party of Florida
    2008 Top Libertarian Party Petitioner
    25+ Year Libertarian Party activist

  17. Eric Dondero

    Paulie, are you even a dues-paying member of the LP?

    Sarah Palin can rightly claim that she was endorsed once by a Libertarian Party affiliate.

    Can you claim the same?

    My understanding is that the Libertarian Party fired you, and asked you to go away, far, far away, for some shenanigans in petition gathering.

    I don’t believe the Libertarian Party has ever asked Sarah Palin to “go away.”

  18. Steven Greffenius

    Interesting that Sarah Palin would urge independents to align with one of the major parties, when so many tea partiers and other small government types are urging her to leave the Republican party in order to lead them.

  19. Eric Dondero

    You know, if one was a cynic, they could say Paulie, that you’ve just been using the Libertarian Party as a source of income for petition gathering.

    We’ve had a lot of that over the years within the Libertarian Party. People claiming they were “Libertarians,” just to make a buck off of an LP petition drive or two.

    Only difference is you stuck around longer than most, probably sensing the disorganization of Libertarian petition efforts, and thinking you could capitolize on that for your own greedy interests.

    I guess I don’t begrudge you for that, but you certainly do need to be exposed for the fraud that you are: A Leftist who has infiltrated our Libertarian movement, in order to make a few bucks to continue to support his unstable sleeping on a buddie’s couch, vagabond lifestyle.

  20. LibertarianGirl

    ED_Funny you say that Libertarian Girl.

    Be curious to know where you were in early 2006, during the Republican Primary in Alaska for Governor. 5 candidates, including incumbent, the dreaded dirty trickster Governor Frank Murkowski.

    me _ um I was working my ass of for the LPNevada as an activist ,an officer and a candidate . I was working for the party 5-7 days a week and me and my team passed out 90,000 fliers by hand sucker , I didnt then and dont now , give a fuck what happens in Alaska.

    ED__Well, a rumor was started in Republican circles. It was thought to have come from the Murkoswki camp, but was never proven.

    “Sarah Palin is a Libertarian, she’s really not a Republican… And you do know she’s a closet supporter of marijuana legalization.”

    me_ yeah , sure she is , why a closet supporter , why not out in the open??

    ED__Yup, that was the word on the street during the entire 2006 Gubernatorial race up in Alaska.

    Oh, and I was there, on the ground at the time.

    me_ so?

    Wonder where you and other so-called “Libertarian” critics of Palin were back then?

    me_ working for the LP in Nevada

    ED_Why no press releases attacking Murkowski and those who were spreading the rumor?

    me _ um I never heard of him them , thank you and I was too busy working for the LP in NV. whywould I even care to send a press release if I did , I am a local state activist , not a LPNational leader or an LNC member .

    ED__Can’t have it both ways.

    You can’t sit there and bash Sarah Palin as “not a Libertarian,” at the same time, she’s being bashed by Conservatives as “being really a Libertarian, and not a Conservative.”

    Which is it???

    me_ not a Libertarian

  21. LibertarianGirl

    ED_25+ Year Libertarian Party activist

    me_ Eric , your a Republican Party activist sweetie , you are registered Republican , you campaign for the RLC and take stabs at the LP every chance you get . YOU ARE NOT AN LP ACTIVIST

  22. paulie

    Paulie, are you even a dues-paying member of the LP?

    Libertarian voter and activist since 1992, Dues paying member since 1994/1995, Life member since 2000. Current exec comm member in Alabama.

    My understanding is that the Libertarian Party fired you, and asked you to go away, far, far away, for some shenanigans in petition gathering.

    Wrong again. I’m working on a Libertarian petition project right now with the full knowledge and approval of national chair Bill Redpath and Executive Director Wes Benedict.

    Sean Haugh did briefly “fire” me last year. At the time, he claimed it was because I lied about something on IPR, but he couldn’t say what.

    I kept right on working, and not too long after that Haugh told me he did not have a problem with that as long as he didn’t have to deal with me himself. Then a few months after that he was fired himself.

  23. Don Lake ........... rearraigning the deck chairs ??????

    Bruce Cohen // Feb 20, 2010:
    “I would rather have Sarah Palin calling herself a Libertarian than a Republican.”

    Huh ??????????? I smell an agent provocateur. [and folks tease ME ’bout my meds!]

    The base line [original] post is possibly the most import blogging this site has ever done. WE ARE NOT PARANOID —— THE DEMOCANS AND REPUBLICRATS ARE AGAINST US!

  24. paulie

    And Paulie, what makes you think you’re a Libertarian able to judge who is and who is not really a “Libertarian.”

    My 100/100 score on the Nolan quiz is a good start. Of course, there’s much more.

    My understanding of your political philosophy from others, and what you’ve posted here, has you as a radical Leftist Liberal and/or Progressive, anything but a Libertarian.

    That just shows how little you understand.

    I also know that your personal dealings are about as far from being Libertarian as one could possibly get.

    You know this? I don’t think we’ve ever even met.

    Have I done bad things in the past? Yeah.

    I suppose we should write off anyone who ever has?

    I also know that you’re a relatively Newbie to the Libertarian Party.

    I’ve been around continuously since 1992, and have been a member non-stop since early 1995.

    If you add the years that you paid your LP dues and not count the years when you didn’t, how many years were you an LP member?

    And wasn’t your last presidential vote (and the one before that) for a Republican?

  25. Robert Capozzi

    rw: It is bizarre that Palin would say what she did recently, when her husband was a member of the Alaskan Independence Party for so long.

    me: ADR, but it doesn’t seem “bizarre” at all. It might be perfectly sensible BECA– USE OF the First Dude’s experience. The Palins may be best positioned to recognize that third parties have not been (for the most part) a viable electoral vehicle for many, many years in the US, given their experience with the AK IPs.

    There are a lot of reasons to be involved in 3rd parties. Mine, for ex., is for the LP is to moderate our message SO THAT we can be more influential and to maximize liberty and minimize coercion. Others prefer to build a vanguard that holds high the banner of an (unattainable, certainly for decades, if ever) anarchocapitalistic construct. Still others may view it as a quasi-religion, witnessing to their own intransigent advocacy of the NAP principle, regardless of transitions or practicality.

    It’s all good, of course. What will be, will be…

  26. Trent Hill

    ““Demand”? That’s quite a strong description for what should really be described as “suggest.” There was no “demand” from either of them. Just appeals.”

    I agree. Damon, please change the title to “suggest” or something similar. These definitely aren’t demands.

  27. paulie

    You know, if one was a cynic, they could say Paulie, that you’ve just been using the Libertarian Party as a source of income for petition gathering.

    Yeah, I guess that would explain the many thousands of volunteer hours I’ve logged, or the thousands of volunteer signatures I gave the LP (can Dondero say that)?

    And as for income from petition gathering…there is plenty of it from many different clients, and the LP is just a drop in the bucket. I could do quite well without ever working LP drives and in fact, many times could have done better by working elsewhere, rather than on LP petitions.

    By contrast, other than working on LP petition drives in the 2004 and 2008 cycles, what has Dondero’s involvement with the LP been, other than way back in the 1980s?

    And when was the last time Dondero voted Libertarian for President?

    We’ve had a lot of that over the years within the Libertarian Party. People claiming they were “Libertarians,” just to make a buck off of an LP petition drive or two.

    Yeah? How many of those were multi-term state party officers, multiple-time LP national convention delegates, did hundreds of OPHs scoring tens of thousands of quizes (no exageration), helped start dozens of campus LP chapters, won triple lights of liberty awards from the Advocates, etc, etc?

    Only difference is you stuck around longer than most, probably sensing the disorganization of Libertarian petition efforts, and thinking you could capitolize on that for your own greedy interests.

    That’s ridiculous.

    I guess I don’t begrudge you for that, but you certainly do need to be exposed for the fraud that you are: A Leftist who has infiltrated our Libertarian movement, in order to make a few bucks to continue to support his unstable sleeping on a buddie’s couch, vagabond lifestyle.

    Hmmm, I’m not the fraud here.

    I’m not the one who voted for endorsed Bush and McCain. Or Bob Dole. Or Bush Sr.

    But I guess working my ass off on a long shot campaign for the LP presidential nomination, or for LP candidates for Governor and Congress, at no pay, or making contributions (including $1,000 for a life membership and monthly pledges for years at a time) helped me land couches? lolol

  28. Robert Capozzi

    dl: WHAT WE MAKE IT [and the least we can do is leave a strident paper trail of protest ……..]

    me: Hmm, good luck with those approaches. At the moment, I don’t see independents or Ls being very influential, much less EMPOWERED, to “make” anything happen. Did I miss something? Are we pressing a lever that’s soon to pay dividends?

    As for stridently leaving a paper trail, tell us more about that. Do you want to do so to feel better? Do you hope that your words will be unearthed in a millenia, and Lake-ism will rule civil society?

    And, especially, why “strident”? I’m going for more of a peaceful, Gandhi thing myself, but maybe your approach is more helpful in some way…

  29. Don Lake ........... rearraigning the deck chairs ??????

    Eric Dondero // Feb 20, 2010:
    “Paulie, that you’ve just been using the Libertarian Party as a source of income for petition gathering ……”

    Oh plllllllllllllllllllllllz [and that is paulie’s jaguar out in the partking lot!]. Just one more reason I no long read, email, or phone this guy [Dondero]. Besides I as still awaiting for the formal acknowledgment [endorsement] of this insert from the Vatican!

  30. Don Lake ........... rearraigning the deck chairs ??????

    Robert Capozzi // Feb 20, 2010: “Do you want to do so to feel better? Do you hope that your words will be unearthed in a millennium, and Lake-ism will rule civil society”

    Huh ??????????? If I want to feel better I can just read Milnes or Dondero for a sustained laugh. Rule …… society ?????? How about sitting on the tree limb giving the one finger salute to the swooping Democrap Beast ??????

    Bob, if I lived in a neighborhood of Hos and Pimps and Druggies, would you berate me for occasionally coming out of my fire base to momentarily shake my fist at the bad guys ????? You have nothing better to do with your days on Earth than to dis potential allies ??????

  31. paulie

    I was an LP member for years before I ever heard of paid petitioning.

    The Jag is in the shop.

    But my maid really IS cleaning my bathroom right now. Seriously.

  32. Robert Capozzi

    dl: Bob, if I lived in a neighborhood of Hos and Pimps and Druggies, would you berate me for occasionally coming out of my fire base to momentarily shake my fist at the bad guys ????? You have nothing better to do with your days on Earth than to dis potential allies ??????

    me: Sorry if you took my post as a “dis” or a “berating.” I assure you it wasn’t my intention. I want to understand your view on the value of stridency. But now I also want to understand why you think hos, pimps and druggies are “bad guys.” Seems like they are generally peaceful people committing capitalist acts among consenting adults.

  33. Eric Dondero

    Sorry Libertarian Girl. But LIBERTARIAN = REPUBLICAN AND VICE VERSA.

    Being the Newbie that you are, of course, you wouldn’t know the following:

    David Nolan, LP Founder was the Chairman of the Colorado Young Republicans at the time of the Founding of the Libertarian Party.

    All past Libertarian Party candidates for President, except for one (Harry Browne), were or still are REPUBLICANS!!!!

    All Alaska State Reps. elected on the Libertarian ticket in the 1980s CAUC– USED WITH THE REPUBLICAN PARTY!!!

    The four New Hampshire State Reps. elected as Libertarians in the 1990s WERE ALSO ELECTED ON THE REPUBLICAN LINE!!!

    The Libertarian Party currently has a List of 149 Elected Officials up on its website. Included on the List is REPUBLICAN Dan Halloran, City Council for New York.

    Get your facts straight next time.

  34. Eric Dondero

    Well, Shiver me Timbers.

    Trent Hill, IPR Editor actually makes sense for once.

    Gotta give credit where credit is due. Trent, I appreciate you making that change to the Title of the piece.

    Might I return the favor? If ever you seem some outlandish title for a piece over at Libertarian Republican in regards to the Libertarian Party that doesn’t fit, please send me a note. And I’ll strongly consider a revision.

    Eric Dondero, Publisher
    Libertarian Republican

  35. Don Lake ........... rearraigning the deck chairs ??????

    and another star of tomorrow:

    Feb 20, 2:34 PM EST

    Ex-congressman Traficant of Ohio to be independent

    AP: TV ratings and seeing the space station

    YOUNGSTOWN, Ohio (AP) — A former Ohio congressman who served seven years in prison for corruption says he’s leaving the Democratic Party and considering a run for office as an independent.

    James Traficant (TRAF’-eh-kehnt) made the announcement Saturday on his talk show on WTAM-AM in Cleveland. He did not specify which seat he was eyeing for a run.

    Traficant was elected to nine terms as a Democrat from Youngstown before serving time for racketeering, bribery, obstruction of justice and tax evasion. He was released in September ……..

  36. paulie

    Sorry Libertarian Girl. But LIBERTARIAN = REPUBLICAN AND VICE VERSA.

    Redonkulous.

    David Nolan, LP Founder was the Chairman of the Colorado Young Republicans at the time of the Founding of the Libertarian Party.

    Yeah, he got fed up with the Republicans 40 years ago, just like I got fed up with the Democrats 18 years ago.

    Unlike Dondero, neither of us have looked back.

    All past Libertarian Party candidates for President, except for one (Harry Browne), were or still are REPUBLICANS!!!!

    This is one of the major problems with the LP, probably the biggest one.

    Hopefully we will nominate someone with no trace of Republican affiliation next time.

    Anyway, back to the original point:

    Palin. Not libertarian. Not libertarian lite. Not kinda, sorta libertarian. Not “libertarianish.” Not libertarian Republican. Not libertarian at all.

    And I am eminently qualified to say so.

  37. Justin Johnson

    “Any truth to the rumor that is going around that Dondero will be featured on the new VH1 show…Republican Tool Academy?”

    I worked as a camera grip on the taping and I am not supposed to tell you this, but Dondero is eliminated in the first episode. He does not earn any tool badges, and does not get to leave in the limo with Lady Liberty.

    “Sorry Dondero – you are just a tool.”

  38. Eric Dondero

    Pauli Canolli:

    Not libertarian. Not libertarian lite. Not kinda, sorta libertarian. Not “libertarianish.” Not libertarian Republican. Not libertarian at all.

  39. Eric Dondero

    Let’s compare now:

    Jason Dowell, Bill Toien, Rob Clift, Rob’s wife, Zach all leaders of the Alaska Libertarian Party circa 2006, all deemed Sarah Palin MORE THAN LIBERTARIAN ENOUGH for an endorsement.

    Pauli Canolli, who probably never set foot in the State of Alaska says she’s not a libertarian.

    Something tells me Alaskans know best.

    I wonder how Canolli would feel if a bunch of Alaskans were telling Alabamamians who is and who is not really a “libertarian”.

  40. Don Lake ........... rearraigning the deck chairs ??????

    Eric Dondero // Feb 20, 2010:

    “Pauli Canolli: Not libertarian. Not libertarian lite. Not kinda, sorta libertarian. Not “libertarianish.” Not libertarian Republican. Not libertarian at all ……”

    [a] and what give a GOP mole like you any moral authority on this matter ?????

    [b] when is da Bishop of Roma gonna giva you hisa blessing ??????. We’re ’bout three years late on that south bound train ????? Aren’t we, big no nothing blow hard ????????

    [c] as they say ’bout Dondero in Tejas: All hat, no cattle!

    [d] Lordie you make crazy people look sane …..

  41. Don Lake ........... rearraigning the deck chairs ??????

    Eric Dondero // Feb 20, 2010:endorsement.
    “I wonder how Canolli would feel if a bunch of Alaskans were telling Alabamamians who is and who is not really a “libertarian”. ”

    I wonder how Liberty loving, rational, logical citizens would feel if a zonked out GOP zealot were telling semi sane folks who[m] is and who[m] is not really a Libertarian ……….

    Hug ??????? Alabamamians ?????? Steven Gordonites ??????

  42. Solomon Drek

    “Jason Dowell, Bill Toien, Rob Clift, Rob’s wife, Zach all leaders of the Alaska Libertarian Party circa 2006, all deemed Sarah Palin MORE THAN LIBERTARIAN ENOUGH for an endorsement.”

    Is Dondero still working for the Republican Liberty Caucus to proselytize Libertarians into joining the GOP? I know they had this campaign a few years ago to convert the Libertarians but I thought they would have given up by now.

    I suppose it’s unrealistic to think that the Republican Liberty Caucus would give up on converting Libertarians any more than Christian missionaries would give up on converting Jews.

  43. paulie

    Is Dondero still working for the Republican Liberty Caucus to proselytize Libertarians into joining the GOP? I know they had this campaign a few years ago to convert the Libertarians but I thought they would have given up by now.

    As far as I know the RLC has disavowed him.

  44. Trent Hill

    “Trent Hill, IPR Editor actually makes sense for once. ”

    That’s the best backhanded compliment I’ve ever gotten from a proto-fascist claiming to be a libertarian! =)

  45. Trent Hill

    “As far as I know the RLC has disavowed him.”

    They have. Eric Dondero only supports himself and his Libertarian Defense Caucus (which isn’t really an organization, just a name and an email list).

    I haven’t joined the RLC yet, but it’s high time that I did.

  46. Eric Dondero

    Funny, I guess I was so “disavowed” by the RLC that I was an honored guest at the most recent RLC convention in Jacksonville, Florida early last year.

    Oops, and I just had dinner a couple weeks ago with RLC National Chair Dave Nalle and his lovely wife, along with my lovely wife, at a BBQ joint in downtown Austin.

    Funny, Dave didn’t “disavow” me over dinner. Though, he did ask me to pass the ribs.

  47. Eric Dondero

    Trent, do you have a fax number?

    The Libertarian Defense Caucus was very much an organization for over a decade in the 1980s. Mike Dunn of Washington State was Chair. Also, Kevin Bjornsen was very active. Darlene Brinks, Jack Wheeler, Mike Phipps, Bob Hunt, Cliff Thies, even Reason Editor Bob Poole were active members.

    I’ve got 4 old LDC newsletters I’d be glad to fax to you, if you don’t believe the organization ever existed.

    Yes, today, it’s virtually just an email list run by Ryan Christiano. But it still is around. And Christiano is promising to beef up the group here shortly.

  48. paulie

    Pauli Canolli, who probably never set foot in the State of Alaska

    I don’t know who “Pauli Canolli” is, but I’ve been to Alaska, as well as all of the lower 48 (as in every one).

    Not that it has anything to do with anything.

    I don’t need to have been anywhere to know that Palin is not a libertarian. I just need to be able to read.

    http://dailysource.org/palin
    vs
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian

    Not similar.

    Alabamamians

    What’s that? Is it sort of like a jackalope?

    And if Steve G. or anyone else tries to tell me Fob and/or Tim James is a libertarian, I’ll tell them the same thing.

  49. paulie

    Pauli Canolli:

    Not libertarian. Not libertarian lite. Not kinda, sorta libertarian. Not “libertarianish.” Not libertarian Republican. Not libertarian at all.

    Quite possibly the case, since I don’t know who that is.

    But if Eri Donderro means me, on what issues do I support bigger government? I’m not aware of a single one.

    I can name many issues on which Palin supports bigger government.

  50. Steven R Linnabary

    My understanding is that the Libertarian Party fired you, and asked you to go away, far, far away, for some shenanigans in petition gathering.

    Wow, this is rich!! This is a person that was the subject in an article of a major publication about petitioning shenanigans in Montana just a couple years ago? Weren’t those petitions thrown out because of your shenanigans?

    The old saying about people that live in glass houses comes to mind!

    PEACE

  51. Steven R Linnabary

    Sorry Libertarian Girl. But LIBERTARIAN = REPUBLICAN AND VICE VERSA.

    Well, you can have Jim Jeffords. and Arlen Specter.

    As well as Trent Lott and David Duke.

    Sorry, Eric. But “Libertarian” has a very specific meaning. You really should look it up.

    PEACE

  52. paulie

    This is a person that was the subject in an article of a major publication about petitioning shenanigans in Montana just a couple years ago?

    To be fair to Dondero, I think those were smears by the anti-liberty opponents of the issues he was working on, mainly government unions and their water-carriers.

    We ran into the same nasty bunch in Nebraska, Oklahoma, California, etc.

  53. paulie

    If Paulie is an “infiltrator” into the LP, then please infiltrate us harder and deeper with a lot more people like him.

    I’m putting a request in with the head office for reinforcements.

    Hopefully it will clear the section chief’s desk soon.

    Let’s keep our fingers crossed.

    😛

  54. Steven R Linnabary

    Yeah Paulie, I know.

    But it irks me when one friend attacks another over some petty thing or another. And I’m sure that whatever your transgressions were, they were as petty as what Eric was accused of.

    FWIW, I don’t believe that Eric did anything wrong.

    But still, when one lives in a glass house…

    PEACE

  55. Don Lake ........... rearraigning the deck chairs ??????

    Rep. Ron Paul, the libertarian-leaning Texas Republican who ran a quixotic bid for the Republican presidential nomination in 2008, was the top vote-getter in the Conservative Political Action Conference’s straw poll, capturing the support of 31 percent of those who participated in the contest.

    Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, who had won the CPAC straw poll for three consecutive years, took 22 percent of the vote. Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin won 7 percent and Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty 6 percent. Pawlenty attended the conference; Palin did not.

    Paul’s victory renders a straw poll that was already lightly contested among the likely 2012 GOP hopefuls all but irrelevant as the 74-year-old Texan is unlikely to be a serious contender for his party’s nomination.

    As the results were displayed on twin large screens in the ballroom – and even before Republican pollster Tony Fabrizio could announce who won – a cascade of boos came down from a crowd that views Paul and his fervent supporters as an irritant

    Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0210/33225.html#ixzz0g9HL3co9

  56. paulie

    And I’m sure that whatever your transgressions were, they were as petty as what Eric was accused of.

    No, I actually fucked up for real. But I’ve long since got the drugs back under control again.

  57. Andy

    “Eric Dondero // Feb 20, 2010 at 4:40 pm

    Sorry Libertarian Girl. But LIBERTARIAN = REPUBLICAN AND VICE VERSA.”

    BAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

  58. Andy

    “Eric Dondero // Feb 20, 2010 at 1:36 pm

    You know, if one was a cynic, they could say Paulie, that you’ve just been using the Libertarian Party as a source of income for petition gathering.

    We’ve had a lot of that over the years within the Libertarian Party. People claiming they were ‘Libertarians,’ just to make a buck off of an LP petition drive or two.”

    Ridiculous. There is only a very small handful of active petitioners who are also Libertarians (I’m talking like a half a dozen). All of us have been active in the party outside of petitioning. Also, most of the people that the Libertarian Party hires to do petitioning are not Libertarians, they are mercenaries who are only out to make a buck. So it is not necessary to claim to be a Libertarian in order to get petitioning work with the Libertarian Party. The Libertarian petitioners who are also party activists are so because we want to be, it is not to get work. If anything, we’d earn more money if we completely dropped the Libertarian activism and just became total mercenaries.

    “Only difference is you stuck around longer than most, probably sensing the disorganization of Libertarian petition efforts, and thinking you could capitolize on that for your own greedy interests.”

    Working on Libertarian Party stuff is not always the most lucrative gig around, in fact, it is seldom the most lucrative gig around. If one was just out for money the Libertarian Party is not generally the best place to hang around.

    “I guess I don’t begrudge you for that, but you certainly do need to be exposed for the fraud that you are: A Leftist who has infiltrated our Libertarian movement, in order to make a few bucks to continue to support his unstable sleeping on a buddie’s couch, vagabond lifestyle.”

    I’ve known Paul for over 5 1/2 years and I can tell you for sure that he is far from being a leftist. He is vehemently anti-taxes and pro-gun rights, neither of which are considered to be leftist stances. He does advocate that Libertarians do more outreach to the left in order to inspire leftists to convert to libertarianism, but this does not make one a leftist.

  59. Eric Dondero

    Canolli, you opposed the War in Iraq. That means you supported Saddam Hussein, the Hitler of our time. Doesn’t get any more big government than that.

    Case closed.

  60. Eric Dondero

    Hey Andy, where does Canolli stand on Military issues?

    Sure, he can be decent on Taxes, and Guns. But if he opposes America, and supports Fascist Dictators like Saddam Hussein, Iran’s Mullahs, and Radical Jihadists like Hamas and Hezbollah, than that cancels out any libertarian leanings he may have on other issues.

    There’s no such thing as a “libertarian Hitlerite.”

  61. d.eris

    Woah, you step away from the computer for 24 hours and look what happens. I don’t think there’s ever been this many comments on any of my posts here before.

    Apparently, the reactionary establishmentarian arrogance and dictatorial sense of entitlement displayed by these specimens of the Democratic-Republican two-party state struck a nerve.

    Trent writes @ 35: ““Demand”? That’s quite a strong description for what should really be described as “suggest.” There was no “demand” from either of them. Just appeals.” I agree. Damon, please change the title to “suggest” or something similar. These definitely aren’t demands.

    I don’t think there’s anything wrong with ‘demand’ at all. Palin comes right out and says “the tea party movement is going to have to pick a party and run one or the other: R or D.” That’s not a suggestion or an appeal, she’s literally saying: this is what you have to do, you have to support the Republican or the Democratic Party if you are in the tea party movement.

    Carroll, on the other hand, literally says: if you don’t like the two-party system, you can “leave the country” and if you are working for independent and third party issues you are “destroying America.”

    The word ‘suggests’ is not appropriate for either of these situations, it is too weak and implies indirectness. They are not merely suggesting that people vote Democrat or Republican and they are not appealing to voters to do so either: they are coming right out and telling people that they HAVE TO vote Democrat or Republican. At best, this is political obscurantism, at worst it is nothing more than self-entitled establishmentarian drivel.

    ‘Suggesting’ people vote Democrat or Republican would require the speaker to allow that there is another possibility, which obviously there is, but they don’t admit that, since their assertion is that the Republican and Democratic Parties are the only legitimate choices.

    On the other hand, ‘demand’ could be seen as inappropriate because it implies that the speaker has “proper authority”, but it seems and sounds like these people are just spoiled duopolist hacks.

    The third definition of demand seems perfectly appropriate, however: “to call for or require as just, proper, or necessary.” It seems fairly clear that in their own minds, both Palin and Carroll call for voting Democrat or Republican because they think it is just, proper or necessary. Therefore they demand that people vote Republican or Democrat.

  62. Eric Dondero

    Just for the record, what Canolli did, and what he speaks of above, is about the most unforgiveable sin in the entire petition gathering community. It doesn’t get any worse than what he did in a particular – ahem – Pacific Coast state.

    I know the full story. Every last little detail.

    And as much as I love dogs, what Canolli did, even overcomes the “abandonment of the puppy in the woods,” story in hideousness.

    Canolli, no amount of apoligies can ever make up for your actions. You will forever, and I mean the rest of your working life, carry that soil-stain on your ratty-ass jeans. And those of us in the industry will never let you forget.

  63. Eric Dondero

    What I am accused of:

    In a trial in Oklahoma the AG accused me of wrongly signing off on two petition forms from the State of Colorado, crossing out my home address in Texas and writing in an address in Colorado.

    This came out in the trial, while I was testifying as a plaintiff in a case to establish out-of-state petitioner rights.

    That night, it stung. I and our team were hammered by the allegation. But one of our lawyers looked into the evidence and found it completely in error.

    All I know is that the very next morning, the very first thing that the Judge did was ask the AG to address the courtroom. The AG looked in my direction, and fully apologized and asked the record to be stricken.

    Why the rumor still persists?

    Because only the allegations were reported in the Oklahoma newspapers that day. The next day’s apology was never reported. Although, it is, of course in the court records.

    Sources to confirm all this: Scott Tillman, Paul Jacob, and Attorney Eddie Greim.

    Incidentally, we ended up winning the case.

    It was me, and my co-plaintiff, a woman from Florida, who established the rights of out-of-state petitioners for the 8th Circuit, which includes all the Plain States, and many Rockey Mountain states. It is my understaning from Attorney Greims, that the ruling for all intents and purposes applies to the 9th District (Pacific West), as well.

  64. Inquiring Mind

    Mr. Dondero, a few questions sir:

    When was the last time you voted Libertarian for President in the general election?

    When was the last time you voted for a Libertarian over a Republican for any office?

    When was the last time you voted for more Libertarians than Republicans in any given election?

    If your state has registration by party, when was the last time you were registered to vote as a Libertarian? How many years in total were you registered Libertarian out of all the years you have been a registered voter, and what years were they?

    Which years were you a dues paying Libertarian Party member, and how many total years was it? I don’t just mean the first and last years, but the actual number.

    Excluding the decade of the 1980s and your work as a paid petitioner in getting candidates on the ballot for 2004 and 2008, in what ways have you been involved with the Libertarian Party?

    Is it true that, after leaving the Libertarian Party, you spent well more than a decade openly declaring your intent to destroy the Libertarian Party by any means necessary?

    Is there any truth to the rumor that you still desire to destroy the Libertarian Party, but have now decided to do so from within as well as from outside?

    Inquiring Minds want to know…

  65. Erik Geib

    “War has all the characteristics of socialism…: Centralized power, state planning, false rationalism, restricted liberties, foolish optimism about intended results, and blindness to unintended secondary results.” – Joseph Sobran

    The idea of a ‘pro-war’ “Libertarian” is offensive. There’s nothing libertarian about war.

    Dondero, I hope you realize you’re basically an Ann Coulter clone. The very non-libertarian woman claims to like everything about Ron Paul except his foreign policy, much like you. The core of nationalist conservatism is war. The core of libertarianism is the non-aggression principle, no matter how much you try to spin either to the contrary.

    You are a nationalist thug, and support from others like you is one of the main reasons for America’s decline. If you love America as much as you claim to, why do you constantly propose it burden itself with unnecessary foreign expenditures that do little more than create more enemies of which to worry about? Claiming to love America and freedom while supporting policies that destroy those very things is the stance of a very sad, confused man.

  66. paulie

    Canolli, you opposed the War in Iraq. That means you supported Saddam Hussein,

    No, it doesn’t. I opposed Saddam Hussein.

    But, as with domestic social and economic issues, opposing something does not mean I want a (US, or other) government monopoly to solve the problem.

    And supporting something does not mean that I want the government to mandate and/or provide it. A crucial libertarian insight.


    the Hitler of our time.

    LOL. Hardly.


    Doesn’t get any more big government than that.

    Hmmmm….so in Dondero’s topsy turvy world the only way to be against big government is to be FOR big government.

    Poison as food, poison as antidote.

    Actually opposing government spending across the board, as I do, is not even an option.

    Thankfully, that is not the world we actually live in.

  67. paulie

    where does Canolli stand on Military issues?

    Where I stand on all issues: for cutting spending, taxes, monopolies, mandates and prohibitions as much as possible.

    For free market competition.

    Against initiation of force.

    Sure, he can be decent on Taxes, and Guns. But if he opposes America,

    I don’t oppose America.

    I oppose the parasite/leech monopoly which claims to be its government.

    Libertarians understand the difference.


    and supports Fascist Dictators like Saddam Hussein, Iran’s Mullahs, and Radical Jihadists like Hamas and Hezbollah,

    No, I don’t support any of those.


    than that cancels out any libertarian leanings he may have on other issues.

    No leanings, I’m libertarian across the board.


    There’s no such thing as a “libertarian Hitlerite.”

    Except for Dondero, a virtual understudy of Goebbel’s big lie technique, and an athletic supporter of socialized nationalist militarism.

  68. paulie

    BTW out of curiosity.

    As I can best understand it, Dondero’s supporting evidence for the absurd claim that I am not a libertarian, an infiltrator, etc., is that I oppose the war in Iraq.

    In the past he has also repeatedly claimed that anyone who opposes the war in Iraq is not a libertarian.

    Given that most libertarians oppose the war in Iraq, does that mean that all of them are actually not libertarians, and are infiltrators?

    And what about those who formerly supported the war in Iraq but now oppose it, such as Brian Holtz and Wayne Root? Does Dondero believe they are also non-libertarian infiltrators?

    Not that logic can be expected from Dondero, but this is funny.

  69. Brian Holtz

    I’ll say the same thing to Dondero that I said to “anti-war”/anti-libervention libertarians: If you disagree with someone?s judgment that their advocated means will achieve their stated libertarian ends, then stand up and make that case. Don?t cop out and label the person as ?unlibertarian? just because they say they see a different path toward freedom than the one you think you see.

    If you say your goal is minimizing the incidence of force initiation and fraud in human society, and you offer serious arguments that the policies you advocate are aimed at that goal, then you are a libertarian — no matter how passionately other libertarians may disagree that your policies would lead to that goal.

    Our libertarian ends don?t dictate some particular means as the only authentically libertarian path ? and disagreement over such means is not a good reason to label someone as not supporting the libertarian ends.

  70. paulie

    As relayed by Erik Geib in another thread,

    “War has all the characteristics of socialism…: Centralized power, state planning, false rationalism, restricted liberties, foolish optimism about intended results, and blindness to unintended secondary results.” – Joseph Sobran

  71. DR BAD

    Drunk Drugged and stupid.
    Excuses. Word Games.
    I do not know what disgust me more, The thieves in washington who destroy this countrya nd murder our troops and rob from our grandchildren, Or the mindles drunk drugged apathetic greedy idiots who say and do nothign about it.
    One Man controls 90% of the news.
    One Man spys on and controls 90% of your computers.
    Hypocrites, Double Standars, refual to bring to just us the war criminals running america.
    Borow more money, Send more troops, Change the subject. Have a beer. Take a pill.
    Iggy that war and go shopping.
    And is good Independent jew leiberman gonna admit hes a republican?
    May you all rot in hell, for what you have done to America and the World and your own children.
    D.R. Shaw.
    Buttes Falls Or.

  72. Don Lake ........... ??????

    paulie // Feb 22, 2010:
    “is Joe Lieberman’s ancestry or religion relevant to your point?”

    —— Hey ya ever hear of the Reform Party of California’s John ‘Israel First’ Blare and the other ‘American Second’ folks —— including Citizens For A Better Veterans Home co-founder John Dennis Coffey ???????

    —— Found evidence [emails on MY computers unauthorized phone calls on MY telephone] to support the suspicion that John Bambey and Valli Sharpe Giesler helped kill the partisan media to shield Jerusalem.

    —— If a conflict of interest occurs between Judia and DC I have no big problem that Joe Motion will put the needs of HIS voters firmly in second place, a far distant second place!

  73. paulie

    Lake, do you approve of referring to people as, e.g., “jew leiberman,” “papist Moynihan,” “the inscrutable John Yoo,” etc?

  74. DR BAD

    is it racist to point out, leiberman,Rahm Emanul,Dian Fienstien, Dick Cheney are all Jewish? oR how he followed Mccain around whispering in his ear? Is it a secret?
    On saterday I sent a message though Cindy Sheehan to Mary Tillman and told them how Pat Tillman die. All of which they can verify with his autopsy and the congress report.
    Why am I going public now?
    MY Oldest Grandson turns 18 this year. God willing. He has to sign up for selective sevice. My granddaughter does not. Gay males have to sign up.. Gay females do not. I have been fighitng this war a very long time now, So My children would not have to. And now YOU htink you will stick MY grand children withYOUR wars and debt? I think not.
    I hear “equal opertunities”, I hear “equal pay”, I hear “dont ask dont tell”, I dont hear, Treat Men,Women, Gays,Lesbians,Midgets, EQUAL IN ALL areas. Why does the lesbian not have to pay cover charge and gets her drinks half price to hit on the same women i do? Which bathroom are these gays,lesbians suppose to use?
    Maybe Marya nd Cindy can get soem rest and closure now God willing. But until those criminals in washington face thier crimes, they will never have any rest.
    May God Bless them. May YOU rot in hell. God willing.
    Have a nice day.
    GDB

  75. paulie

    is it racist to point out, leiberman,Rahm Emanul,Dian Fienstien, Dick Cheney are all Jewish?

    A) Depends on whether you consider Jews to be a race

    B) I don’t think Cheney is, anyway.

    Do you point out everyone who is of English descent? Every Catholic?

    YOUR wars and debt?

    Neither is mine.

    May YOU rot in hell.

    Backatcha, bubbele.

  76. DR BAD

    What did i say? I say what I mean. I mean what I say. and a correction, Feinstien i smarried ot a Jew, and i forgot Murdoch who is owned 6% by the arabs. If ignorance is bliss? why are you so unhappy? Let me ellaborate, am I racist to point out hillary and bark obama booth have tkaing milllions form the jews and APAC? Am I racist to point out Hillary standing in front of arab women who cant vote. cant drive. cant go out with out escorts. have husbannds who buy and sell and marry little girls, While she complains about iran?
    am i racitist to point out al qaida are all sunnis, all arabs all from YOUR “moderate” muslims countries ? and the “taliban” ie: pastuns (24 milion of them) offered to give america bin laden but america attcked anywway?
    or that hammas is the democraticly elected goverment of palestine while your puppets abbas has declared him self preisdent forr ever?
    9 years of war you have been to stupid and lazy to learn differance between arab and persian. sunni and shiite.
    oh and you send money to yemen and arabia, wheil even now they ignore al qaida and arrest the shiites again.
    murdoch and gates own you.
    and the terrorist are in the whitehouse.
    now back to the POINT.
    does my Grand Son not sighn up for selctive service? or does my Grand Daughter also sign up?
    and go tell biden and powel Cindy and Mary wants to have a little chat with them.
    Have a nice day.

  77. paulie

    Hmmm, you clearly have me confused with people who have vastly different views from mine. Otherwise, I don’t know who this “you” is that you are addressing.

    “Is it racist…”

    Only if you think Jews are a race.

  78. Don Lake ........... perfect, just too perfect!

    I do not approve of [so called patriotic] Americans whom put the hurtful anti USA thots and actions [lethal raid on the non combatants of the USS Liberty!] ahead of national patriotism!

    And I have caught Joe Motion’s anti Americanism from early on. My anti Democratic Party bias [started with JFK in 1960, one of the worst Chief Executives in our nation’s sorry sorry history] was heavily extended with Joe and Mister Fidelity John Edwards and Mister Insider Establishment Copy Cat Biden. Oh Yuck!

    Joe Lieberman is an Anti American thug and the Dems should be ashamed, AS THEY WERE IN CONNECTICUT!

  79. DR BAD

    State your Name, your location and what political party YOU belong to.
    Notice it does not address or answer the points I brought up.
    Nor do any of you.
    R.I.P. Pat.
    you people picked a fight with the wrong man.

  80. Erik Geib

    BH @ 88

    BH: “If you disagree with someone’s judgment that their advocated means will achieve their stated libertarian ends, then stand up and make that case. Don’t cop out and label the person as “unlibertarian” just because they say they see a different path toward freedom than the one you think you see.”

    Response: I believe I’ve frequently made the case. To me, the core of libertarianism is the non-aggression principle. There is no greater violation of this principle than killing another human being, and the wars you’ve so heartily supported have involved killing on a mass scale. There’s absolutely nothing libertarian about murder.

    BH: “If you say your goal is minimizing the incidence of force initiation and fraud in human society, and you offer serious arguments that the policies you advocate are aimed at that goal, then you are a libertarian — no matter how passionately other libertarians may disagree that your policies would lead to that goal.”

    Response: By this logic, one could be a hardcore, eugenics-crazed maniac, but if you want to marry a man and keep taxes low while smokin’ a doobie, well, by God, you’re a libertarian according to Brian Holtz.

    BH: “Our libertarian ends don’t dictate some particular means as the only authentically libertarian path — and disagreement over such means is not a good reason to label someone as not supporting the libertarian ends.”

    Response: Is this a consequentialist argument? If so, I think we’re done here, as I realize now why there’s almost no reason to bother arguing with you. The ‘ends justify the means’ argument is one of the biggest lies ever put upon humanity.

  81. paulie

    Lake:

    There’s a line between legitimate opposition to Israeli policies and Judaeophobia. “Jew Lieberman” crosses that line.

    bad:

    My name is in my posts. My location is mobile. And any of that is beside the point.

    My party is Libertarian.

    “Notice it does not address or answer the points I brought up.”

    What is “it”?

  82. DR BAD

    Thank you.
    Point:>dummy crat and repiglican leaders demand Independents pick party>Jew Lieberman is not an Independent>I am>Today: he is the new Dont ask dont tell advocate>the real issue>women and girls treated special becuase they have vaginas.
    now witch is it?
    does MY grandson NOT sign up for selctive service? does MY Granddaughter sign up? Neather? Both gay males as well as gay females?
    and which bathroom are they suppose to use?
    when you going to go free them saudi women ?
    those arabs and jews goiing to give you the 14 trillion you want to borrow now China has cut you off? They or that french mouth or german woman going to send you money and troops?
    and when you going to do somehting about al qaida in yemen and arbia? and Taliban in new jersey?
    agian Taliban =Pastuns (24 million of them) not al qaida. not arabs. yes they are sunni.
    pissbetrayus can KIss MY Bad Ass.
    Get My troops out os Iraq.
    Have a nice day.

  83. DR BAD

    My Bad. Now to YOUR questions and answers.
    You do not state your home town or location,nor you last name. Becuse you are a coward. Not YOUR war? You say you are a libertarian? (repiglican in denial). So i deduce your are american. “it”? I did not mention any names.
    Your not an Independent, You are not a Republican, You are not a Democrat, This is not your war, so explain why you are stuffing your mouth in MY business?
    Post Your real Name and Location.
    Or shut up and go away.

  84. Gary Chartier

    @103: how about this: (a) the war is unjust, and anyone can object to injustice; (b) Paulie and I are forced to help pay for this injustice, which is itself a further injustice.

  85. Don Lake ........... double 'harruph!'

    paulie // Feb 22, 2010:
    “There’s a line between legitimate opposition to Israeli policies and Judaeophobia. “Jew Lieberman” crosses that line. ”

    ——— As one of my least favorite Presidents would occasionally say “There you go again!”

    I have visited Jerusalem thrice by the time I was 25! Growing up Southern Baptist ‘Royal Ambassadors’ I was and am very pro Jewish. There is a logical right for Israel [and any other state, including the Vatican] to have paradymes which are pro Israel [or nationalist to that nation].

    I am not against most Israeli policies and am definitely not Judaeophobia. I hate hypocrisy and my ‘problem’ is Americans, ESPECIALLY those whom openly claim to be nationalistic patriots and or those involved in the American political process with a hidden agenda of ultimate loyalty to a foreign power.

    Jewish Zionists, American Communist Party Stalinistas, ‘Super’ Roman Catholics come readily to mind.

    I am sorry that you did not ‘get the memo’ on my original post. But I hope that this helps.

  86. paulie

    As one of my least favorite Presidents would occasionally say “There you go again!”

    I have visited Jerusalem thrice by the time I was 25! Growing up Southern Baptist ‘Royal Ambassadors’ I was and am very pro Jewish. There is a logical right for Israel [and any other state, including the Vatican] to have paradymes which are pro Israel [or nationalist to that nation].

    I am not against most Israeli policies and am definitely not Judaeophobia. I hate hypocrisy and my ‘problem’ is Americans, ESPECIALLY those whom openly claim to be nationalistic patriots and or those involved in the American political process with a hidden agenda of ultimate loyalty to a foreign power.

    Jewish Zionists, American Communist Party Stalinistas, ‘Super’ Roman Catholics come readily to mind.

    I am sorry that you did not ‘get the memo’ on my original post. But I hope that this helps.

    Then you are not the object of my criticism.

    And, in fairness, you are not the one going around referring to people by their ethnicity/religion as if it was part of their name (“Jew Lieberman”, “Papist Irish Drunk Kennedy,” “Mobbed-up Guido Giuliani,” “Mulatto Obama,” “Richie Rich WASP Dubya,” etc).

  87. paulie

    We’ll have to do this piecemeal as the computer keeps crashing…

    You do not state your home town or location,nor you last name.

    Why do you care? If I wanted to have sex or other bodily contact, I’d let you know.

    Or you could try clicking on my name. I’ll copy and paste in a minute since you are too lazy/unimaginative to do so.

    Just for fun:

    Hometown: I don’t have one. Moved around all my life. Never been anywhere long enough to be from there. I don’t have a house or apartment and I live on the road.

    Location: ABQ, NM through Thursday morning. Austin, TX planned for this weekend. After that, don’t know yet.

    Last name: really and truly none of your business. I’ve provided sufficient information to distinguish which comments are mine. If you really care and aren’t terminally stupid, it’s easy enough to figure out.

    Why do you ask, are you a stalker? LOL.

    The relevant name is paulie, and the relevant location is right here on IPR.

    Now that copy and paste……….


    Paulie was born in Siberia, part of the former USSR in 1972 and the USA is reminding him more of the country his parents took him out of every day. Growing up in the epicenter of the 1980s crack cocaine explosion in NYC, Paulie got caught up in the available business ventures and saw some of his friends die, and then became an activist against the drug war.

    Through his involvement in the drug peace movement, and college studies in free market environmentalism, he became interested in libertarianism, and abandoned the Democrats after they picked the military-industrial-corporate-statist DLCer and drug warrior hypocrite Bill Clinton as their nominee in 1992, thus finally disproving the idea that 60s radicals were merely infiltrating the establishment in order to change it.

    Paulie became an LP member in 1995 and a life member in 2000, and has occasionally been on the executive committee of the Alabama LP. Since 1998, he has traveled the country as a professional activist. Between that and his earlier travels in the import-export business as a teenager, he has been to 49 US states and about 20 countries, and lived in a number of them. As a life long entrepreneur, he has also started hundreds of businesses in a wide variety of fields.

    Paulie recently worked on the Steve Kubby for President campaign, has been an active member of the Libertarian Party Radical Caucus, is an advisory board member of Liberty Consulting, and hopes to start a new national College Libertarian Organizing Committee.

    He is an Anti-war, true leftist, anarchist, left libertarian, agorist, (r)evolutionary.

  88. DR BAD

    notice how it ignored every point and stuck on jew leiberman? No, only americans and media can do this. These people I named are Massod.
    America its media is blatantly blind to it.
    YOU and they do NOT work for America.
    They are Jew Agents. From day one barak obam joined arms wiht bush and mudered away in gaza. Blocked civilians leaving while they allow these jews to murder away. First thing he did was let two jew spys just walk.
    All they do is feed america lies and propaganda while they steal and murder away.
    oh and all i did was point out he was a jew.
    Hook, line, and sinker.
    And again ,they did not address or answer even one question or point.
    You go ahead wiht your war criems and those jews thier war crimes. Keep on protecting those saudi kings. Stop asking why you are hated and killed. and get no help.

  89. paulie

    Becuse you are a coward.

    Far from it. I’ve done things most people wouldn’t even imagine attempting, and often enough for them to be routine to me.

  90. paulie

    Not YOUR war?

    You’re god damn right, it’s not my war.

    I advocated, marched and wrote against it since before it started.

    I still do so, regardless of which party is in the white house or holds a majority of congress.

    I didn’t vote for anyone that supported the war in congress or in the white house.

    I didn’t register for selective slavery.

    I don’t pay war taxes.

    Like I said: not my war.

  91. DR BAD

    “Selective Slavery”, hmm,thats a new one.
    Now back to the point cup cake,
    Do you think it fair becuse you a hav little penis, you have to sign up for the Selective Service ?
    Which you have admited you are in violation of the Law on,
    while lill girls do not have to be cuse they have a vagina?
    yes or no ?

  92. DR BAD

    cat got your tounge?
    Mindless Sheep and Parrots.
    paulie wanna “Cracker” :))
    “BWAAAAK!!!!”
    next.

  93. Don Lake ........... More Anti World Police Perspective

    Don Lake // Feb 23, 2010 at 11:04 am

    Not YOUR war?

    You’re god damn right, it’s not my war.

    I advocated, marched and wrote against it since before it started.

    I still do so, regardless of which party is in the white house or holds a majority of congress.

    I didn’t vote for anyone that supported the war in congress or in the white house.

    I didn’t register for selective slavery.

    Like I said: not my war.

  94. DR BAD

    Then i guess those are not YOUR toops eather?
    well,Iraq is MY war. and those are MY troops.
    afghanistan? NOT MY war. MY war THERE ended 9/11. YOURS begain.
    GET MY TROOPS out of Iraq.
    and you did not answer the penis -vagina Selective service question?
    and and you see Service to America as “Slavery” ?

  95. DR BAD

    Now what is going on here,Is they refuse to answer for a reason. To answer the question would be to face reality.
    OH NO!!!
    Barak Obama was given all this info.
    Even now he reads this.
    Get MY TROOPS OUT OF IRAQ NOW.

  96. paulie

    quack no good,

    You have become too boring. And I was offline. Ever heard of that?

    so, a tax evading, draft dodging, criminal.

    Only if you think those are legitimate laws. I don’t.

    You seem to have an unhealthy interest in my penis. I already told you it’s not for you.

    I don’t think anyone has any obligation to contribute any money or time to anyone except of their own free will. It has nothing to do with sex/gender.

    This thread is old and you are boring.

    Get a life….

  97. DR BAD

    I have a Life. A Wonderfull life.
    With the most perfect children and grand children a Man could ever want. I have more money then I will ever spend.
    At least unlike Cindy Sheehan and Mary Tillman My children are still alive. Thanks to God.
    MY Problem is With Tommy Franks and Wes Clark, WE took Iraq. And YOU screwed us.
    NOw YOU kepp OUR TROOPS in Iraq while YOU stall,steal and lie.
    and i gues your answer is no one should sign up for Selective Service?

  98. paulie

    I have a Life.

    Your idiotic comments suggest otherwise.

    And YOU screwed us.

    Me? How? Or who?

    NOw YOU kepp OUR TROOPS in Iraq

    False, I’m antiwar.

    while YOU stall,steal and lie.

    WTF are you blabbering about?

    and i gues your answer is no one should sign up for Selective Service?

    That’s only part of the answer. No point in repeating myself, go back and read.

    And move on already…there’s been what, 40 or 50 posts since this one? Find something more recent to comment on, I’ll refer back to you when I need falling asleep….

  99. DR BAD

    btw, Iran’s Highest Holy Leader Issued a Fatwah Against Nukes. He Stated Nukes are Against Islam and Islam Is against Nukes.
    For them to have a nuke now would be an act against God. Unlike YOU they take thier God very serious. Everything is a big joke to you.

  100. More Dr Bad

    126 DR BAD // Feb 23, 2010:
    “no need. you made my point.”
    127 DR BAD // Feb 23, 2010:
    “Everything is a big joke to you.”

    ——– Especially Doctor Badly,
    as you said you were finished!

  101. DR BAD

    this cowardly pile of web trash is perfect example of what is wrong wiht america. Oh what fun as it sets and hides and instigates. In america.
    I told Mary what happened to Pat.
    I have not told Cindy yet what happened in Iraq.
    Unlike YOU I do NOT leeave MY Men and women Behind. I did NOT leave them behind. I have not left them behind, I will not leave them behind. YOU did. Tommy and Wes cant say anything. But I can.
    Baby Murdering war criminals and thieves.

  102. DR BAD

    The Entire Govermen has been tkain over blatantly by Masood,INCLUDING the C.I.A
    Leiberman is not an Indepenedent. I am.
    Leiberman and the others named are all agents of Masood. When YOU betrayed Pat YOU lost YOUR special forces. When YOU betryed Val Plame YOU lost YOUR C.I.A. When BUSH ATTACKED ME,YOU LOST YOUR WAR.
    IM Sick of ALL of you.
    One at a time,
    All at once,
    Bring it the fk on.
    Makes NO fkn Differance to me.
    Resign Bark coward obama.
    and where is MY M.I.A. Army Nurse.
    have a nice day.
    and tell Mariah Happy Birthday.
    not.

  103. DR BAD

    “Jobs,jobs” Jobs” yet they cut a “Jobs” bill across the board from 85 billion to 15 billion. not a word. why? China cut thier credit off.
    oh and this is more “Tax Cuts”. Russai and China got the last Irari oil rights, so chevron ran down and bought chavez’s, he still a tyrant dictator now? Hunt oil out o ftexa has been popumping out oil kurdistan now for how long?
    when hillary was in lying to the senate today,did she mention Irans now Fatwah? ON “Nukes”?
    if you like i wil gladly go though every one of you excuses and talking points and be glad to shove them in you asses.
    you boorow from china, to give to jews,arabs and your puppet leaders, then go muder thier political enmies. Not al qaida. no,, what do you do even now? why you send al qaida money.
    Every day YOU steal,lie and murder your own chelidren and troops. while YOU play words games “Non combat related Deaths” Murder,SUicide,Electrocutions in showers. and of course YOU dont count any one how who dies AFTER they get state side.
    Bark obam is a bought and paid for coward. Does nto know anything but basketball and sweeet talking women. I want to see him sweet Talk Cindy and Mary, THEN im going to tell Cindy what Happened in Iraq. as well as send out Pats austopsy report to the world.
    YOU picked a fight with the wrong Man.
    I am as guilty as buhsh for every death and every troop there. Unlike he and YOU, IM NOT GOING TO FORGET THEM.
    now bush,obmam,pisbetraus,crstalballs,clinton,Mariah,olbermaan, where si MY Missing M.I>A. ARMY NURSE?
    now eather YOU resign, or I charge YOU with war crimess ,genicide and treason.
    stall some more.

  104. DR BAD

    everything comes out of obammas mouth shows he has no clue. Health Care reform died with Teddy (r.i.p) But of course its election tiem isnt it ? so they wil pass sum buslhit bill which wont dfo anything and crow they did something. They blokc cheap drugs from canda and call bark a socialist,while begging and borrowing from china. They bully Cuba, suck Chinas ass whil north korea goes n and on for how long now? You run around beating on pot heads while trying to get your greedy fingers in the cookie jar, while you pop pills and wash them down with martinis.
    Bill agtes spys on you even now wiht hiw “firfly” spy bot and hi “DR warson” and his “autoupdter”, he gies sourc code to chihan which he wont give americans. you cant send americas jobs and tech to china fast enough while you whine socialists.
    oh and did you know Iran and its allies are all pulling out of the dollar and euro? of course not.
    Some one is blocking my message, intercepting them, cashing in on them and using them for political and finaacial gain. They are also giving the information to the jews arabs and others.
    and where is My army Nurse ? she looks just like that girl on “Mercy, funny when i asked olbermaan about her thats what msnbc did, another t.v show. as Mariah go’s on with her inside shot and cashing in on me,,and now my nurse?
    from vivindi to msnbc, from Mariah to olbermaan, all have been cashing in.
    no, i am not happy. and if i do not hear very soon from my missing army nurse? I am going to stop being nice.

  105. DR BAD

    I was just getting ready to hammer olbermaan, before Tddys death Olbermaan was my go between the us gov last couple years. I just watched count down, and he is having a real tough time right now. for all those of you trying to kill me? in olbermaans emails is everything anyone wants to know about anything. tell him i am sorry about his dady,,i suggest 500 cc of morphine straight to the heart,,and where i s my nurse?

  106. DR BAD

    A few years ago ,Glenn beck went on c.n.n and put out an A.P.B on me, Of course like YOU and my children he had no idea who or what I was. NOW YOU GO ASK BECK, Who told him to put out an A.P.B ON me? And I want o know hwo is now intrcepting my messagfe to google? Last wekk i told that pig bakr obam i was odne playing and until now had let him,gates and murdoch screw YOU becuse YOU desreve. it. I otld him i was now going after Bill Gates. go ask YOUR jew run c.i.a and goverment about “firefly”, the spy bot devleopd by Pattes Maes at M.i.t. that “dr watson” which creates eroors ot report your software to gates, that usto updater that pings you and uploads crap wiht out you knowing. and explainto me how gates and ALL of you can send source code,jobs,technoogy etc to a communist country? and yet food roots in ports while children starve. Go askw aht ever happened ot all that stuff from 2 years ago about the chinese hackers? as you see americunts could care les about treason,war crimes,torture, thier troops, thier children. bill gates, dick cheney, murdoch all went on internatinal t.v admite thier crimes. and now YOUR coumperts are junk infected,hacked, you have been filled with hate filled racist lie for how long now from murdoch?
    now go lie to your children and troops some more. And Go ask Mary Tillman what she wants me to do now about Pat? May God give her and Cindy both strength and some closure. I am only warming up on YOU and you liar coward generals.

  107. DR BAD

    The Idiots in the whitehosue and YOU have just rearmed,refinaced and put back ino powe rin Iraq the Bathist party. to TRY and counter the Mehdi army. Dont blame me as your troops are now slaughtered. Im out of here.

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