Libertarian National Committee,
I strongly object to a mandatory floor fee for delegates and urge the full LNC not to impose such a fee for the 2014 convention.
I have already written about this issue extensively. Rather than rehash my points in a long email, I will simply link to my past writings and add one additional point that recently surfaced.
First, I sent the LNC a letter in March of 2012 urging it to overturn the floor fee imposed by the convention committee for the 2012 national convention. In that letter I discussed the floor fee as relates to bylaws, Robert’s Rules, a poll tax, subsidization, and the cost of conventions. I stand by all of these points.
Moulton open letter to the LNC (re-posted in its entirety on Independent Political Report):
https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2012/03/moulton-open-letter-to-lnc-regarding-floor-fees/
Second, I sent a brief to the judicial committee in June of 2012 on the floor fee issue. In my brief I responded point by point to briefs from the convention oversight committee and from Thomas Balch, which were so riddled with non sequiturs I had to chime in. Seeing as floor fee proponents persist in making many of those same points, this brief endures as a useful refutation thereof.
Moulton judicial committee brief (re-posted on pages 11-23 of George Phillies’ Liberty for America newsletter):
https://independentpoliticalreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/May-June-Liberty-for-America-2012.pdf
The judicial committee upheld the LNC’s 2012 registration fee, which I believe was a grave mistake. I find the minority opinion much more compelling than the majority opinion.
Judicial committee opinion:
http://marketliberal.org/LP/JudCom/2012Ploeger/Opinions.pdf
Third, at the 2012 convention a majority (but less than 2/3) of delegates voted to prohibit future floor fees — specifically, 165 delegates voted in favor of prohibiting floor fees; 112 voted against prohibiting floor fees. That same amendment was in the 2010 bylaws committee survey, with 85.8% of 592 survey respondents who were LP members in favor. The will of both convention delegates and LP members on this matter is quite clear.
Registration fee bylaws amendment proposed by Lark (page 12 of the 2012
Libertarian Party convention minutes):
https://www.lp.org/files/2012%20Libertarian%20Party%20Convention%20Minutes.pdf
Fourth, a bit of new information: Many proponents of a floor fee argued that Robert’s Rules of Order supports such a fee. However, the bylaws committee of the National Association of Parliamentarians recently weighed in on the matter, writing “Members should not have to pay to vote.” in urging members to defeat a bylaws proposal moving from conventions to mail voting and imposing a fee for such voting (Balch was on that committee). The amendment was not adopted in convention.
NAP bylaws committee recommendations (page 25 of Notice of Amendments to NAP Governing Documents for the 2013 Convention):
http://63.247.128.171/getdocument.php?id=1979
For the reasons above, I strongly oppose imposition of a mandatory floor fee for delegates.
If anyone would like to discuss the floor fee issue with me further, I am available by email or by phone at 215-768-6812.
Chuck Moulton
Interim Chair, 2014 LP Bylaws Committee
Chair, Libertarian Party of Virginia
P.S. I speak only for myself here, not for the 2014 LP Bylaws Committee or for the Libertarian Party of Virginia.
—–
For background on LNC floor fees, please see
https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2012/03/moulton-open-letter-to-lnc-regarding-floor-fees/
https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2012/06/george-phillies-liberty-for-america-discusses-lp-convention-floor-fees-posts-brief-written-by-chuck-moulton/
https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2013/12/floor-fee-issue-likely-to-come-up-for-a-vote-at-this-weekends-lnc-meeting/
Thank you to Chuck Moulton for emailing IPR a copy of this letter.
The LNC voted to NOT have a mandatory floor fee!
https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2013/12/coverage-of-lnc-meeting-1214-1513/#comment-866266
Good point; shared.
Chuck,
” In the era of new media, having hundreds of passionate libertarians live tweet, Facebook post, and blog about the convention is invaluable free crowd sourced advertising to all sorts of hard to reach people. ”
Excellent point. That’s a PhD in Marketing you’re working on, yes? If not, you might want to change majors! 🙂 . . . although this should be obvious to anyone under 30.
The cost of offering “Free” (meaning subsidized by the room rates/food/whatever)) wifi would be more than paid for by the value of the WOM/Buzz.
Joe
Encouraging maximum participation in the convention pays future dividends for activism, as libertarians invariably leave energized for outreach, enthusiastic about candidates, and pollinated with new knowledge & techniques from fellow delegates. Discouraging attendance with a floor fee is the worst sort of shortsighted… penny wise, but pound foolish.
Similarly, the national party often laments the difficulty reaching media and new prospects, yet they shoot themselves in the foot by negotiating convention packages without free WiFi or even decent phone service in the convention room. In the era of new media, having hundreds of passionate libertarians live tweet, Facebook post, and blog about the convention is invaluable free crowd sourced advertising to all sorts of hard to reach people. It’s beyond insane to blow that opportunity nickel and diming WiFi fees.
I sure hope the LNC starts thinking with long term strategic vision someday instead of continuing short term gamesmanship and posturing.
Wes,
“No one left feeling bad about anything.”
That is the key. The change in consciousness required to realize that there is a real, present-value, financial cost to people leaving a convention feeling badly.
Business (or a political party) creates three kinds of folks: Evangelists, the indifferent, and terrorists.
In my MBA marketing courses I define the “Goal of Marketing” as:
“To so exceed the expectations of the consumer that they experience an emotional state of delight, causing them to become, in effect, unpaid salespeople for the product or service.”
Now if we could do that, what would be the long-term financial impact on the organization?
Tom Peters used to say that the key to business success in the USA was to just “stop pissing off your customers.”
The LP is not alone in trying to master the implications of that admonition.
We also ran our business convention with no floor fees. There was a meal package. We “lost” money on it. No one left feeling bad about anything.
I bet you we will have even more candidates in 2014 than we did in 2012 (which was very substantial).
Steve M
That is correct. Only people who take the time and energy to return their primary ballot are sent ballots to decide on matters of party leadership, etc.
This is primarily a safeguard. Most people who are very politically active who belong to another political party are very reluctant to give up participating in their own party primary just to try to go possibly take over another organization (a year later). It also creates a small amount of tenure and time for people to get more involved and learn the issues, PLUS, you have the added benefit of knowing you have a smaller, but still substantial, subset of people to lobby and engage in deciding matters of party leadership and structure and that their participation rate will be very high.
[start quote]
The people who checked a box on their voter registration form declaring they are libertarian is the best group of people to provide direction for the political party.
For one .. they are you base who vote for you.
For two .. they are far more likely to get involved or do something for you of you ask.
Why would they be better in either respect than those who have signed the party pledge, those who have contributed money, or those that show up?
And what about all the states where registering LP is not an option?
[end quote]
Requiring people who wish to assign a proxy to be a member in good standing of their county, state and national is an idea. Those states Libertarian party would set the bar for what constitutes a member in good standing.
Wess, didn’t you only send party leadership ballots out to people who voted in the Oregon Libertarian Primary? about 800 as I recall?
Paulie,
Yes. Thanks. He could use an editor; I wish it was shorter; but the idea that the purpose of the convention is to maximize long-term wealth/votes/growth is consistent with marketing as I learned it. Pissing off your loyal base; or not seeing them as powerful word-of-mouth evangelists — isn’t.
This was Geoff’s letter to the LNC, I assume this is what you are referring to:
Dear LNC members:
I have waited to chime in on this issue, mainly because I wanted to say if anything really new was said. I haven’t heard anything really new.
I detest the word “floor fee” almost as much as a “TANSTAAFL” package. I’d prefer a more “neutral” term, but have nothing to suggest.
I understand the desire to have “everyone pay their own way”. Philosophically, it’s consistent, but money is not the only measure. While I do wonder how some can afford to travel across the country, and ought to be able to kick in a few extra bucks, I suspect that there are far more who object out of principle than lack the means. I wonder how much more monetary involvement we would garner from welcoming instead of alienating some with a different perspective.
Also, I wonder just how many of our LNC members get the concepts of “loss leaders” in the retail field? There is no hard capitalist rule that you have to make a profit off of every customer, on every transaction. If we think of our members as being in a long-term relationship with the LP, perhaps it is better to be occasionally generous rather than consistently hard-assed. After all, we would gladly give a maxed-out donor a free gold package, because they earned it. Does this only apply to one year? Would we tell a donor who’d given $10K but fell on hard times that he’s not welcome enough to be able to vote? I think that if we welcome those who do NOT want to be FORCED to PAY, that they will be more likely to donate in the future. Really – do some of you not get libertarians? The more you tell them they have to, the louder they say NO WAY!! This battle will not be won by the casting of an LNC vote.
From a purely monetary point, let’s craft a scenario. Let’s suppose we say no one can vote who does not pay, and we make it stick somehow. Then the CmC will set prices that break even, and we will break even. Now, compare that scenario with one that allows people to vote without paying. The package prices will most likely not change, because the INCREMENTAL cost of a non-paying delegate is very low for each such person. The incremental costs are determined by what a non-paying delegate gets. I would be opposed to the LNC mandating that each non-paying member gets a book bag, binder, attendance to break-out meetings, etc. I can even understand not giving them a copy of the current Bylaws and Platform, because we have the info online, and they can print it at their own expense. I do not feel any voting member should have to pay for a copy of the Committee Reports or the Agenda or their ribbon. If those truly are our only incremental costs, is there any wonder why so many reject paying $94 for the right to vote?
Several have interjected that our “true” costs can somehow be developed by a spreadsheet and a calculation. If we just divide the cost of the meeting room space by the number of attendees, we have our true costs. However, this is not true. That unit cost moves up and down based upon attendance and price. To me, I see it more like the contributions of profit towards the bottom line of the passengers on a trans-Atlantic plane trip. Many people on that same plane will pay different prices, but all of them were willing to pay because the plane got them where they needed to go. Some felt the much higher price for first class was justified, undoubtedly due to their higher disposable income, or because they see the value in paying 5X base price for a sleeper seat and better food. I do not. I love bigger seats, but live with the discomfort knowing I’ve got more to spend on other things. I also drink what’s free. While it’s clear that the first class passengers contribute more to profitability than I do, the plane still gets me to the same place. Would their model work if frugal people like me were denied? No – it would not. The model is premised on setting prices and services that let the passengers decide the value. For all I know, they lose money on people like me that seek out the lowest fares, but I still help to fill the plane with gas and get it wher e it’s going.
For me, from a business perspective, the most important thing we can do is to get as many people as possible to our conventions. The second most important thing to do is to offer a range of “packages” that induce people into buying. This needs to be done by picking a price, and selling the value of what is offered. I think that we should have gold, silver and bronze packages that are combinations of meals, speakers and other events. We should also offer a “speaker only” package, because there is a market for this, and many people with less spending cash value the words being said more than the food being eaten. I also think we should have a “delegate” package that offers not much, but doesn’t cost much. That would include some events like a reception, and floor speakers, etc. All of these “packages” would include things that cost money, but are not essential to the business, such as book bags, programs, name tags, etc.
I think if these packages are appropriately priced, then the vast majority of attendees will buy one of them. There will still be some who do not want to pay at all. My solution would be to let them vote, and they do not get any of the “added value” goods and services.
I would not label these people as “freeloaders” or “povertarians”. Some of these people may be more inclined to look favorably towards our efforts in the future. Some may give more indirectly or subsequently. If this was a business, we might just give away “free samples” or courtesy drinks.
On another slant, it’s easy to believe that everyone should have to be a sustaining member of national to be a delegate, and I wish that everyone was, but my reasons are not due to philosophical attachment to the “shareholder” perspective. I will get into my reasons later. Every delegate represents about 25 sustaining members as their proxy. The delegates are chosen to fill the role of proxy. Without a Bylaws change to require sustaining membership, this will not change. I do not see that the membership status of the proxy is of concern under the system we use.
I am concerned that when some of us consider using a “wide open” community-type involvement, then we would just be doing what killed the Reform Party. If it is too easy to be a voting delegate, then it is that much easier for non-libertarians to effect a takeover. No one has yet, but that doesn’t mean it is not a situation we should be concerned with.
So I am opposed to a “floor fee” without the delegates placing it in the Bylaws. I know that I could put on a convention that made money, gave value to the attendees, and did not lose money. As a true capitalist, I do not pray to the bottom line – I consider it, but the goal of the convention is to have a productive convention. That can and has been done without mandating that everyone pay their way. I wish everyone did pay something, because I know we could drive down prices for everyone if we knew everyone was paying, but I have the luxury of telling everyone in the LP that we try to make enough of a profit to insure we do not lose money and any profit the convention makes can be used to support other efforts of the LP.
Geoffrey Neale
I agree wholeheartedly with Chair Neale’s education of the committee regarding “Loss Leaders.”
I think we should all agree that it is the job of the LNC to “Maximize the long-term wealth” of the LP (at least for this example).
The best way to do that (among other things) IMO is to keep the floor fee at ZERO and cover those costs through advertising, higher revenues elsewhere, donations, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badlands
Yes and no. Yes, it should be; no, it is not as a practical matter.
Why would they be better in either respect than those who have signed the party pledge, those who have contributed money, or those that show up?
And what about all the states where registering LP is not an option?
One advantage of the proxy idea, where you have to attend a local convention to register your proxy is that it might encourage creation of local organization where their currently aren’t any.
Marc, The democrats at east in Tennessee, hold a series of conventions, county then congressional to pick most of their delegates. To become a delegate you have to show support at the county and then the congressional level.
The Libertarian party seems to be any one that wants to go and is willing to pay can go. So in my view much less representative of the libertarian voters then the democrats (at least in Tennessee) of the democratic voters.
I know, George.
I have been to North Dakota. it is a beautiful place to visit. My comment about North Dakota, however, was with respect to voter registration.
There is a debate as to whether the last convention made or lost money. The answer is “lost” if you charge staff time to the convention. The answer is “made” if you view this as part of their normal duties.
Isn’t this floor fee a moot discussion? Anyone can correct me but I think the last convention to lose money was Portland due to the highly paid convention planner that was selected by the LNC.
All since have been profitable. I don’t think we know how profitable Denver was as the planner (a previous LNC member) refused to disclose financial information midway through the convention.
With that said, the convention should be managed by a separate FEC filing corporation in accordance with the bylaws. These are temporary committees like host committees. The FEC has special rules for convention committees that allow for selling of vendor space to corporations, sponsorships, etc.
The LNC should not be involved in the convention other than selecting the host committee bidding on the convention year.
I never dreamed Phillies would be the first one in our little asylum to go loopy. Everyone knows the scenic one is *SOUTH* Dakota.
For about half the electorate you can register Libertarian. Massachusetts is better off–you need to write the word out, meaning you have identified yourself as a potential activist. In about half the country, there is no registration by party. Then there is scenic North Dakota.
Marc
The people who checked a box on their voter registration form declaring they are libertarian is the best group of people to provide direction for the political party.
For one .. they are you base who vote for you.
For two .. they are far more likely to get involved or do something for you of you ask.
When you stop thinking you are special or better than them … you will have even more success.
2012 was a record year for Oregon. 2014 will be even better.
The Democrats and Republicans typically have 2 to 20k come to their national nominating conventions, but they have millions of registered voters on their rlls.
Organizations have always belonged to the activists willing to show up. People — not just Libertarians — all have this strange idea that somehow *all* people who are remotely interested in the LP should have a say in how its run. I don’t. I think the LP belongs to the people who invest the effort required to make it succeed.
And as Paulie said, only about half the states allow Libertarians to register as such. Registration by party is a subsidy to political parties, anyway — a subsidy which we should seek to have abolished.
By calling for registered voters to call the shots in the LP, we’re asking a group of people organized by The State to come in and muck about in our affairs.
Why would we want to?
I don’t think that poll was very useful either, LOL.
how much less useful is it to conduct a poll here on libertarian voting methods then on who the next libertarian candidate for president should be?
I put it out here as a discussion…. i can’t say I have a firm opinion other then the LNC doesn’t represent me and I tend to vote with my wallet.
The vote on the presidential nomination was somewhat higher, but on the same order of magnitude.
About half the states have zero registered Libertarians, since there is no registration by party or the LP doesn’t qualify, so registered Libertarians can not be the criterion used at the national level.
Doesn’t sound like a very useful poll. IPR readers are not necessarily libertarians, much less Libertarians.
And the only people wh can change it will be the delegates at the next convention, chosen the current way. The LNC has no say in this. The bylaws committee might consider whether to recommend your proposal(s); email Chuck. They actually have the capability to poll members, which would be a more useful poll than IPR.
Doesn’t really address the issue at all. Also, most counties don’t have conventions. In many states they barely have a state convention.
Not sure what you would consider “high enough”
found the answer more or less.
Our current Chair received 264 votes to NOA getting 159 so in the neighborhood of 420 to 450 delegates?
California alone has almost 110,000 registered libertarian voters…. so I am doubtful that the current method represents us.
How about IPR conduct a poll on whether some other methods such as vote by mail, proxy voting or sticking with the current method should be used for determining who our national candidates are and who are LNC officials are?
One could pick a middle ground that says proxies may only be collected at county party conventions.
Out of curiosity what was the attendance at the last couple of national conventions? Was it high enough to really represent the people who make up the libertarian party?
Posted and discussed at https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2012/03/member-of-the-the-libertarian-party-starts-a-petition-for-voiding-a-decision-of-the-national-committee-regarding-convention-floor-fees/
“If the Judicial Committee decides to allow a floor fee absent a Bylaws amendment allowing such, then the net impact will be that the Bylaws are meaningless and that the LNC and its assorted committees have unlimited power over the members.” -Ploeger, et. al v. LNC. (Petitioner Brief)
I’m more with Marc on this one. I don’t think proxy voting works well in the other parties I have seen use it. There’s a lot of potential for games getting played by the game players.
At the same time, I want free events with lots of attendance, lots of advertising and no barriers to entry there. So if there’s a way to do both of those that would be awesome.
Oh I don’t know. Sounds like then you’d have a bunch of delegates tooling around collecting proxies from mostly lightly-committed people who may have no idea whatsoever about whether the delegate they’re giving their vote to will drive the party in a stupid direction, or a smart one. We have enough of a problem with delegates who don’t really have to live with the results of their choices now.
I’d prefer to increase dues to $1,000 in cash or volunteer time (work a fair booth for two weeks, collect 1500 petition signatures, etc), and only give those who have made that kind of extensive investment the privilege to vote at LP conventions.
The “do nothing but still be able to drive the LP” model isn’t taking us anywhere.
They need zero dues, zero floor fees, zero paid people, zero office, yes proxies, yes vote by mail or email, and yes to anonymous delegates by email. Get with the 21s century people!
How about……
Let members register a proxy with a delegate for a cost of $5.
Delegates get in free. This would raise cash, allow more participation and get delegates running around before the convention attending local meeting to collect proxies.
Amen!
Andy is correct. The actions of a few politcians do not reflect on the people of Columbus or Ohio. They are just as pro-liberty as people pretty much anywhere.
Likely rescheduled for next weekend but that is not yet official.
LNC meeting has been cancelled this weekend.
I’ve been saying for years that Libertarian Party events need to be more inclusive. The goal should be to make it so more people come to the conventions, not to price people out. It is also rather pathetic that more people in the metropolitan areas where the conventions are being held do not know that the conventions are even happening. Heck, at that convention in Las Vegas in 2012 there were a lot of people who were at the hotel where the convention was being held that did not know that the convention was going on. The Libertarian Party needs an increase in participation and visibility.
“Jill Pyeatt December 6, 2013 at 3:11 am
Also, Marc, it’s very likely the mood won’t be terribly hospitable toward the Libertarians visiting their state, since the legislators in Ohio have just thrown us out. It sounds like a good convention for me to pass on.”
The actions of some elected officials passing legislation that removes the Libertarian Party (as well as the Green Party, the Constitution Party, and the Socialist Party) from the Ohio ballot does not reflect the views of everyone who lives in Ohio. I’d bet that many people in Ohio oppose this legislation, and I’d also bet that many people in Ohio do not even know about this situation.
If anything, this horrible ballot access bill is all the more reason for Libertarians to attend the national convention in Columbus, Ohio. Libertarians should organize a public protest against over this rotten ballot access bill to coincide with the Libertarian Party National Convention (assuming that the bill does not get thrown out in court before then).
I’ll do my part and not run again 🙂
Agreed.
We should also move from annua dues to monthly pledges.
I don’t think that works very well with the parties I have seen implement it, but you may want to discuss it with the bylaws committee.
If you aren’t too concerned about the outcome, sure. Remmeber that the results in 2012 were pretty close. A few delegates making the decision to go or not go can change things.
1. No floor fees.
2. $1 set aside from every member’s annual dues to fund bi-annual business session.
3. Mail ballot to every member for voting or giving one’s proxy.
Floor fees: It’s almost like the delegates have multiple personalities. We don’t want floor fees but we keep electing the same tired old LNC members who continually manipulate them into place.
I refuse to continue supporting this stupid charade. I went to 2012 but I’ll probably skip 2014. If I go to Columbus at all it would be to spend time with friends and to go to a few of the hospitality suites. I’ve paid my dues several times over, even though I’m already a life member. I’ve donated tens of thousands of dollars of my time to the LP. Over the past 15 years or so, I’ve personally signed up more Sustaining members of the national LP than anyone else in the country. The LP can have either my time or my money, but not both.
To the individuals on the LNC who keep maneuvering to implement floor fees: If you don’t want me to take the spot on the convention floor that I’ve earned, then I’ll tell you what: you know where to go.
Please, we want to hear the lie about how our conventions cannot raise outside unlimited corporate cash? And then tell us why in 2012 you turned around and allowed the LSLA to raise outside unlimited corporate cash and walk away with $25k or whatever the amount was?
The 2012 national convention was a big waste of time — the only redeeming part was the parties with friends. These people insist on making every damned LP convention into a drip-drip-drip Chinese Water Torture kind of experience.
Re-elect NO ONE.
Also, Marc, it’s very likely the mood won’t be terribly hospitable toward the Libertarians visiting their state, since the legislators in Ohio have just thrown us out. It sounds like a good convention for me to pass on.
Since the chair of the OH delegation last year had a huge temper tantrum and likely cost the delegates about $50,000 worth of their time (about 4 hours of wrangling x 500 people who maybe make an average of $25/hour on the floor), one wonders with the convention in his home state if his behavior will be any better.
The 2016 covention is in Orlando, the 2014 convention is in Columbus, and this weekend’s LNC meeting is in Dallas.
Now I am confused. Is the convention in Orlando?
Change of plans. I will not be able to make it to the LNC meeting. Greyhound is cancelled from Jackson MS to Dallas indefinitely. Not much point in spending the weekend in Jackson, so I never boarded. We’ll see if I can get the Greyhound ticket and/or motel reservation refunded. Something tells me no.
Hopefully Joe and/or someone else can report from the meeting.
Jed: Thanks for putting up this article. I’ve got an exceptionally busy schedule right no, or I would have done it I will get all the Regional reports posted tonight, though. I think they should be up before the convention..
Paulie @ 6:38: You forgot to post the part where Mark Hinkle signs his letter”Retired LP Chair”, although a few of us may recall that that wasn’t exactly what happened.
Kevin Knedler said: “But a MidWest convention will have an overall better draw than one on the coast. St. Louis was proof of that vs Portland, Oregion in 2006. Look at the membership and you will see a large portion live in the Midwest, Central, East, and SouthEast.”
I think that Columbus, Ohio is a pretty good choice for a national convention. It is close to a lot of other large population centers. I would think that turn out should be good (by LP standards).
Our conventions are not merely to conduct business, they are also theater.
Ten or fifteen years ago I helped organize the LPO convention and we invited any elected or appointed office holder the opportunity to attend our convention free of charge (excluding food). Only two took us up on the offer (one was a state rep). Neither joined the LP, but if they had it would have been a boon to the party. This idea has been rejected in recent years as too expensive.
At the last LPO convention I helped organize I proposed that any high school or college student be allowed to attend free of charge (again, excluding food). This was a POTUS election year and I thought it would be better for TV cameras (if they did show up) that they showed a packed hall rather than just a couple dozen people. And if these kids could make it through our bylaws/platform debates they might become afflicted with LP activism. This idea was also rejected as too expensive.
I have also proposed that we webcast our conventions for those that can’t make it for whatever reason. We can’t count on mainstream media to cover our events, so this is one small way to get our message out. Unfortunately this idea was shot down, one person said he wouldn’t come if it was webcasted. I don’t know if this person refuses to attend football games if they are aired on TV but I have my doubts.
My point is we need to be as inclusive as possible for many reasons. And one reason is to make us look better on TV (*IF* they show up), to make us look exciting so that others will want to come. Yes, there might be a fairly trivial cost. But one that could pay dividends.
Most Libertarians will buy a package but the whole package should not be required unless we wish to be a private debating club. And a debating club is not likely to grow when other libertarian options exist that are inviting.
PEACE
Knedler, St. Louis was a flop and the turnout that happened was there to toss the LNC bums out. The planners had not enough tables set up, which delayed the start of the business session, no Internet service, overpriced rooms, Starr popping up and down like he was in an ejector seat, and that doesn’t even get into Carling’s “voting judge” fiasco. The only real positive to it besides seeing Starr get tossed out on his ass with an 80% vote was that one merely had to take the train downtown from the airport and walk two blocks.
Columbus is in Ohio, which is the part of Indiana and Pennsylvania neither wanted.
As for Hinkle, that’s typical garbage from him since he’s in the “anti-povertarian” crowd and has been for years, since he has no clue about subsidies and convention planning. The real problem is the LNC can’t budget worth a damn and blows money where it shouldn’t.
MV,
The prices and other criteria you discuss are subjective and depend on where you are coming from, what your method of travel is, what kinds of motels you are willing to stay at etc.
The convention contract is not going to be broken on our end, which would involve a huge penalty and a very unfavorable negotiating position to reschedule elsewhere.
Columbus is comparable to St. Louis, which did fine. Much better than Portland. In 2002 it was in Indianapolis, I skipped that one but I think it also did OK.
The Portland numbers were abnormally low. I believe St. Louis was much better attended.
The Summerlin convention was nowhere near the Vegas strip. It was a long ride from Chicago and back. I liked the Anaheim, Atlanta, St. Louis and Denver convention hotels and their locations much better.
Interesting comments about the 15th largest city in the USA–Columbus, Ohio. The story in the recent LP News touched on some of the activities. It’s nicer than some other cities that I will not mention. No, it is NOT some garden paradise. But a MidWest convention will have an overall better draw than one on the coast. St. Louis was proof of that vs Portland, Oregion in 2006. Look at the membership and you will see a large portion live in the Midwest, Central, East, and SouthEast.
Kevin Knedler
Ohio Chair LPO
Gradualte of The Ohio State University
I agree with Chuck Moulton. I had suggested a voluntary fund to cover the
cost of National Conventions, but I also think that the Conventions shouldn’t
be so expensive. Most delegates attend to care of LP business, not to attend
expensive events.
Hinkle says: “Perhaps, those who can ill afford to pay their fair share of the convention costs, should stay home and invest those funds on local LP projects. Or, send in a donation less than or equal to the cost you would have occurred to the national LP to fund one or more projects we’re working on.”
OK, lets look at the cost.
From the west coast I cannot find a flight for less than $585 round trip. Accommodations are limited to the hotel of the convention and there is no shuttle service from that hotel to the other hotels or the only local Casino that provides shuttles for the nearby hotels. So, if you are staying at someplace other than the convention hotel you then have to rent a car or pay taxi fair.
As for Entertainment goes, the Largest Casino is 15 minutes away and there is no shuttle service. Meaning you have to rent a car or taxi yourself there. I am unaware of other entertainment options in that area.
To sum it up, the Columbus Ohio is going to be $$$+ and rather boring if you don’t bring your own entertainment.
Cost for me to Las Vegas
Flight: $60
Hotel: $39 a night – but I can probably comp my way though it
Food: $15 a meal but with comps I can probably get it down to next to zero.
Entertainment: Plenty, and if you are super cheap you can just walk around the strip and watch the street performers or the various free shows the larger Casinos put on.
To sum it up, the cost for Las Vegas is $ and it won’t be boring
cost for Orlando FL
Flight $360
Hotel: $55/night
Orland is home of Disney world, Kennedy space center, Universal Studios, and more. Enough said on that.
Summery: The cost is $$ and I can bring the family to see Goofy and look at some rockets.
Hinkles’ notion that I should send money to the LNC if I cannot go is what then? Welfare? A tax? How realistic is that, and will anyone really do this?
Furthermore, holding to his notion, if the LNC cannot pay for the convention then the LNC should not hold the convention in a location that it cannot afford or attract members to attend. Enough said on that.
I am coming to think that the Ohio location was picked because it would be hard to get to financially, and there is not much of an attraction around there to make a vacation out of the trip and have fun. I doubt many people will want to just sit in a hotel room the entire time they are there when not in the convention room.
In non-presidential years, the attendance of these conventions is very low 300 to 400, and high cost will only drive the attendance down.
I would propose for the LNC to reconsider the Convention location and to back to Las Vegas.
Hinkle seems very bitter. Is it just me?
So, Mark Hinkle argument is about “who pays?”
The Libertarian answer is: Those who want to pay will pay.
The Democrat Party answer: Raise taxes on everyone and pay
The Republican Party answer: Pay for it on debt
The Green Party answer: Take the money from Big Oil and Greedy corporations
The Nazi Party answer: Everyone will pay, but some will just pay more than others
The Communist Party answer: Everyone will pay equally and vote equally, comrade!
Now, I don’t mind paying for a package with perks knowing that it helps pays for those who just want to attend the convention and get no perks. I am not so stingy or unloving to not want to help my fellow Libertarian. I guess some are that anal about money and unwilling to help others, but most Libertarians I meet are happy to help out a fellow Libertarian.
Most hotels are happy to give a large convention room out for a minimum buy of rooms and food services. I have organized conventions here in Oregon and never failed to meet that demand.
It is easy to design perks for those who want to rub noses with the board members and other committee members, also to meet Libertarian celebrities and perhaps attend some special entertainment and parties later.
Also, most conventions charge exhibitors and vendors a fee. As an exhibitor for wedding industry events, it is not uncommon to pay $300 to $1000 for a 10×10 space.
Surely, with the number of Libertarian leaning magazines, blogs, Vlogs, merchandizing and bookstores, and potential candidates running for Federal office, and the number of state parties who might like a booth and associated groups who like a booth, that alone can easily pay for the convention.
The LNC Convention is a bylaws stipulated convention for the purposes of organizing, not for financial gains. To turn a convention like this in to a business plan is a huge mistake. There are far better convention formats and themes to work in to a Business Plan other than the LNC convention. I think Freedom Fest http://freedomfest.com and such conventions are great examples of such conventions.
If the LNC is suffering from poor convention planning and thus losing money, then perhaps hiring a professional convention planner would be the right thing to do.
I believe it will very soon be time to make another petition to the Judicial Committee. “new facts” “wrongly decided”. Perhaps Chuck is better able to compose such a petition than I am.
It would be worthwhile to have this discussion forwarded to the Starshild reflector, or someplace else, *now*, so that members can be informed in advance.
Hinkle misunderstands the direction of subsidization. Delegates subsidize members who don’t show up by giving their valuable time to the business of the party.
Also see the wedding analogy in my judicial committee brief.
Posting this was a one-time only thing. I prefer to focus on candidates & party activism. IPR needs another LNC parliamentary procedure/bylaws/floor fees/internal bickering thread like an Eskimo needs ice. But here ya go. I made an exception.
See Hinkle say that poor people should not be delegates.
He’s a disgrace to our party. He’s also the person the LNC elected to its membership to fill a vacancy.
“What are the chances your 1 vote is going to change anything at the convention, be it the Bylaws, the Platform, or any officers or LNC representatives elected there? Pretty remote wouldn’t you say?” This is the new version of the wasted vote theory.
Readers at the last convention will recall that Mark Rutherford was defeated for chair, by…ONE VOTE.
I agree with Chuck.
However, since no one from the other side of the floor fee issue has made an argument here this time (although you can still find their arguments in old archived threads) here is what Mark Hinkle just posted to LNC Discuss:
I posted an argument here on this issue.
https://independentpoliticalreport.com/2013/12/floor-fee-issue-likely-to-come-up-for-a-vote-at-this-weekends-lnc-meeting/#comment-865034